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Speaker 1: Text technology with tech Stuff from stuff works dot Com.

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Speaker 1: Hey there, and welcome to tex Stuff. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Jonathan Strickland. I'm an executive producer here at how Stuff Works,

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Speaker 1: and you guys know me. You know what I do

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Speaker 1: for a living talk about technology. I'm the best of

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Speaker 1: what I do, and what I do isn't pretty. I can't.

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Speaker 1: I can't back up either of those things. I want

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Speaker 1: to take a little departure from the way we normally

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Speaker 1: do text stuff. I've got an interview that I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: insert into this episode, and today I'm going to talk

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Speaker 1: about the process of making a board game. Now, I

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Speaker 1: know that's kind of a step away from what I

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Speaker 1: normally do, but but stick with me. I promise you that,

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Speaker 1: at least to me, it's really interesting and I hope

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Speaker 1: it will be for you as well. Later on this episode,

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Speaker 1: i'll have that interview. It's gonna be with a couple

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Speaker 1: of folks from Mondo. That's a company that has done

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Speaker 1: a lot of pop culture merchandizing, posters, artwork, and all albums,

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Speaker 1: whole bunch of different stuff. But they've also recently published

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Speaker 1: a board game that's based off a true classic. In

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Speaker 1: my mind, it is John Carpenter's remake of The Thing

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Speaker 1: spoiler alert. I am a big fan of that film. Now.

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Speaker 1: I know some of you are thinking board games are

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Speaker 1: more than a little bit of a reach for tech stuff,

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Speaker 1: but I argue that it still counts. It may, in

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Speaker 1: your mind, stretch the meaning of technology a little bit,

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Speaker 1: as most board games require very little in the form

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Speaker 1: of tech. If we're being really strict with the definition

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Speaker 1: of technology, however, then I would say that board games

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Speaker 1: totally count because what technology is is the practical application

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Speaker 1: of knowledge in a particular area. Practical application of knowledge.

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Speaker 1: Technology is the embodiment of the things we learned. So

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Speaker 1: when you look at technology, it is proof that science works. Right,

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Speaker 1: that we understand that science and engineering these are are

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Speaker 1: scientific disp lens that then can have this practical application

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Speaker 1: and technology. If science didn't work, our technology wouldn't work.

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Speaker 1: And I guess this is where we insert lots of

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Speaker 1: jokes about Blue Screen of Death, but you get what

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Speaker 1: I'm saying, Like, if we didn't have science under a

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Speaker 1: good understanding, then there's no way we would have all

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Speaker 1: the stuff that we've got, the stuff what beeps, and

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Speaker 1: I certainly wouldn't have a show. Now I argue that

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Speaker 1: a board game represents that it is a practical application

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Speaker 1: of our understanding of human psychology and also of game theory,

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Speaker 1: and at least in some types of games, the relationship

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Speaker 1: between strategic decision making and random events. Now, first we

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Speaker 1: have to acknowledge that not all board games are equal. Right.

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Speaker 1: Some games rely way more heavily upon strategy than other

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Speaker 1: types of games. Chess, for example, is a strategic game.

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Speaker 1: There are no elements of random chance in chess. All

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Speaker 1: moves are stemming from player decisions. All the pieces have

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Speaker 1: very specific ways they hand and cannot move, and how

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Speaker 1: they can take other pieces. And while one player cannot

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Speaker 1: predict the moves made by his or her opponent, none

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Speaker 1: of the moves that are made in a game are

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Speaker 1: truly random. They are the result of choices made by

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Speaker 1: the players. Now, on the flip side of that is

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Speaker 1: a game like candy Land. Now there's no strategy, and

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Speaker 1: candy Land all moves are dictated by a deck of

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Speaker 1: cards which acts sort of like a random number generator,

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Speaker 1: and drawing a card reveals a color which tells the

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Speaker 1: respective player where to move his or her player piece.

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Speaker 1: The outcome of the game is completely up to the

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Speaker 1: whims of chance, which is why my niece can beat

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Speaker 1: me every single time. It's not really true. My niece

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Speaker 1: is three years old. She can also beat me in

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Speaker 1: trivial pursuit. I am not proud of this fact, but

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Speaker 1: she is a very intelligent young lady. Candy Land is

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Speaker 1: a game meant to entertain young kids and teach them

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Speaker 1: about rules. It's kind of a gateway game, if you will. Now,

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Speaker 1: many games combine elements of both strategy and random chance.

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Speaker 1: If one wishes to get philosophical, you can say, well,

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Speaker 1: that's a lot like life, right. Some people do really

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Speaker 1: well in life despite facing adversity because they make incredibly

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Speaker 1: wise decisions. So while chance might be against them, they

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Speaker 1: are capable of making very good decisions and coming out

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Speaker 1: on top. Anyway, other people might do really well in

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Speaker 1: life despite their foolish choices, just because they happen to

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Speaker 1: be very lucky. Or you know, if you're a Jedi who,

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Speaker 1: in your experience does not believe in luck, maybe you

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Speaker 1: would just say coincidence just happens to favor that person

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Speaker 1: by chance alone. For many games, you need a really

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Speaker 1: good balance of luck and skill to do well. Consistently,

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Speaker 1: which can be both really exhilarating and also very frustrating.

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Speaker 1: If you were an expert poker player, then you might

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Speaker 1: get frustrated that occasionally you just get some bad beats,

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Speaker 1: like you just get some bad hands, and the person

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Speaker 1: that you're playing against get some really good hands, And

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Speaker 1: it may be that you're a much better poker player

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Speaker 1: than they are, and yet they're still winning. That's part

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Speaker 1: of the game. Now, there are some broad categories of

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Speaker 1: board games out there, including some card games, and they

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Speaker 1: have varying emphasis on luck versus skill, and I thought

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Speaker 1: it might be helpful to kind of do a rundown

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Speaker 1: on the different types of games that are out there

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Speaker 1: and give some examples of each for the purposes of

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Speaker 1: this entire conversation. Now, first we have the racing games

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Speaker 1: or the classic board games genre, and these are the

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Speaker 1: games that rely heavily on chance. So, like Candy land

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Speaker 1: I just mentioned, typically the goal in this game is

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Speaker 1: to be the first player to reach a finish line

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Speaker 1: of some kind. But nearly all the moves you make

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Speaker 1: in these sort of games are dependent upon some sort

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Speaker 1: of random event, So that might be rolling a die

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Speaker 1: or a pair of dice, or maybe more depending on

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Speaker 1: the game, or spinning a dial or drawing a card,

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Speaker 1: or you know, that little popper that you might have

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Speaker 1: in some games. Other games that fall into this category

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Speaker 1: include stuff like snakes and ladders or shoots and ladders

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Speaker 1: if you prefer or sorry uh. Those games are largely

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Speaker 1: social in nature. The value of the game mostly comes

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Speaker 1: from the interactions you have with the people around you,

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Speaker 1: and they tend to be kind of like family bonding experiences.

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Speaker 1: But there's not a whole lot of satisfaction in the

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Speaker 1: game itself, because again it's mostly due to random chance.

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Speaker 1: There's not really anything you can do to improve your

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Speaker 1: chances of winning in those type type of games. On

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Speaker 1: the flip side of that would be the abstract strategy games. Now,

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Speaker 1: these are the games in which you are playing some

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Speaker 1: form of strategic combat in an abstract way against your opponent.

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Speaker 1: Checkers and chess both fall into that category. Your goal

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Speaker 1: is to outthink and outmaneuver your opponent. Random elements are

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Speaker 1: almost always absent or reduced to the most minor factor

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Speaker 1: in these types of games. These are also some of

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Speaker 1: the games that have been solved by computers. Not all

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Speaker 1: of them have, but Checkers, for example, has been solved.

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Speaker 1: And when we say solved, we mean that the we

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Speaker 1: have worked out algorithms that prove that you can either

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Speaker 1: always win or always come to a draw based upon

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Speaker 1: when you play if you assume that both players in

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Speaker 1: a game are playing perfectly. So, for example, and Connect four,

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Speaker 1: if you are the first person to play a move,

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Speaker 1: and you and your opponent both play absolutely perfectly, you're

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Speaker 1: gonna win, right like, That's just the way it works.

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Speaker 1: Tic tac toe. If you both play perfectly, you're gonna

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Speaker 1: draw every time. This is, of course, again assuming perfect play.

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Speaker 1: Not every game has a solution, or at least not

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Speaker 1: every game have we worked out the solution. Some games,

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Speaker 1: like chess are very complicated, and we may find out

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Speaker 1: that there is no solution, or that it's might may

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Speaker 1: just take a really long time before we're ever able

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Speaker 1: to come up with It gets pretty complicated with games

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Speaker 1: where you've got pieces that can move and reverse their

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Speaker 1: movements and not just move in one direction. Then we

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Speaker 1: have the euros style games. Sometimes these are called German

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Speaker 1: board games. These games are slightly less abstract than the

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Speaker 1: previous category, but not as detailed or grand as strategy games.

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Speaker 1: Which I'll describe in a little bit. These games have

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Speaker 1: really strong themes that find their way into game mechanics.

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Speaker 1: So whereas you might say candy Land, the theme is

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Speaker 1: very much it's it's very surface level. There's not really

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Speaker 1: anything about the candy Land game that translates into game

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Speaker 1: mechanics for the most part. Same thing with Sorry. But

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Speaker 1: there are other games in the in the eurostyle where

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Speaker 1: the theme is very much tied in with the game

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Speaker 1: mechanics and the way the game unfolds. There's typically some

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Speaker 1: kind of resource management factored into those types of games,

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Speaker 1: and typically players are in the game for the duration

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Speaker 1: of play. You don't typically see German board games or

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Speaker 1: eurostyle games that knock players out before the end of

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Speaker 1: the game comes about. Everyone's in it to win it

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Speaker 1: all the way to the end, and often there are

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Speaker 1: some sort of score ring elements that will allow someone

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Speaker 1: to win even if they appeared to be lagging behind

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Speaker 1: the others. You might have some secret elements to it

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Speaker 1: where you have a goal and if you reach that

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Speaker 1: goal you get bonus points, which means you could end

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Speaker 1: up winning the game. When it looked like from just

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Speaker 1: a casual glance you were in the last place. There's

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Speaker 1: a really strong emphasis on eurostyle games on strategy, so

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Speaker 1: random elements are typically limited to where resources might be

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Speaker 1: found or other minor elements in the game, but most

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Speaker 1: game events are dependent upon the choices of the players

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Speaker 1: in the game, and those games also frequently allow players

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Speaker 1: to make temporary alliances as the game progresses. The games

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Speaker 1: in this category include things like Settlers of Catan or Carcassone.

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Speaker 1: Those are two very popular German board game or eurostyle

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Speaker 1: game out there, so if you're familiar with either of those,

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Speaker 1: you know what I'm talking about. Strategy games take elements

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Speaker 1: both from abstract strategy games like Chess and eurostyle games

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Speaker 1: like Settlers of Catan, and then combine them into really deep, rich,

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Speaker 1: and often really complicated games. Sometimes their war games are

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Speaker 1: military based. These tend to be gamers games, meaning they

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Speaker 1: frequently have more complicated game mechanics that appeal to experienced

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Speaker 1: gamers and require a lot more explanation or maybe multiple

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Speaker 1: play throughs to really gain a good sense of how

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Speaker 1: the rules work. The board game rules and narrative often

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Speaker 1: drive the action, and they might include both competitive and

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Speaker 1: cooperative play, often within the same play session, and there

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Speaker 1: can be metal level playing in this game. In other words,

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Speaker 1: the game isn't just happening on the board, it's also

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Speaker 1: happening within the interactions between players outside of the confines

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Speaker 1: of the game itself. You might find yourself actively trying

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Speaker 1: to deceive other players as to the relative strength of

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Speaker 1: your position. So you might be bluffing, trying to make

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Speaker 1: them think that you're in a better position than you

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Speaker 1: really are, or you could be doing the opposite. You

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Speaker 1: could be downplaying or position in order to lull them

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Speaker 1: into a false sense of security, and then you spring

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Speaker 1: the trap and they go all Admiral Akbar on you.

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Speaker 1: These games also can take a really long time, sometimes

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Speaker 1: several hours for a play session, depending on how complicated

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Speaker 1: game is. Risk Is a style of this Civilization board game,

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Speaker 1: is the style of this a Boal Star Galactica, and

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Speaker 1: also the thing which we'll be talking about later. All

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Speaker 1: of these kind of fall into this very large category,

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Speaker 1: though obviously each of those games has very different elements

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Speaker 1: from the others, So while they all kind of belong

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Speaker 1: to the same category, that doesn't mean they're game mechanics

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Speaker 1: are necessarily similar. They're not. They're also card based games.

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Speaker 1: There are several different categories of these. Strategy based card

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Speaker 1: games still involve an element of luck, since you can't

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Speaker 1: predict which cards are going to end up in your hand.

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Speaker 1: You typically in these games will draw a certain number

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Speaker 1: of cards from a deck. Players usually play from the

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Speaker 1: same pool of cards, so it's not like you have

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Speaker 1: your own deck and they have their's. You're both playing

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Speaker 1: from the same one. These games also tend to have

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Speaker 1: a theme, though the extent to which that theme plays

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Speaker 1: a part in gameplay will vary. Some examples in this

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Speaker 1: include Munchkin or Seven Wonders. Then you've got deck building games,

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Speaker 1: in which players build out a deck from a common

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Speaker 1: pool of cards. Players may have to do something in

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Speaker 1: order to earn cards while building their respective decks, such

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Speaker 1: as purchasing individual cards within the game itself, using some

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Speaker 1: sort of end game currency not real money, or by

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Speaker 1: completing certain in game tasks. Games like Dominion and Corriers

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Speaker 1: fall into this category. Then you've got trading card games.

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Speaker 1: These are the games in which players build their individual

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Speaker 1: decks based on purchasing packs of cards. Typically, in these

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Speaker 1: style of games, you would buy a starter deck that

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Speaker 1: would have a good distribution of basic cards and then

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Speaker 1: you would supplement that with booster packs. So you go

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Speaker 1: out and buy booster packs to add more variety to

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Speaker 1: your cards and add more capabilities. Some of those booster

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Speaker 1: packs could contain particularly rare or powerful cards, and then

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Speaker 1: players would go up against each other using these cards,

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Speaker 1: kind of dueling one another in an attempt to win

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Speaker 1: a match, and typically that involves each player having an

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Speaker 1: assigned number of points kind of like health points or

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Speaker 1: hit points, and the other players trying to whittle that

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Speaker 1: down to zero. So the first player to hit zero

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Speaker 1: is out. So if you knock your opponent down to

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Speaker 1: zero and they're out, then you win. Games like Magic

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Speaker 1: the Gathering or Hearthstone, which is a video game version

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Speaker 1: of that style of card game, fall into that category.

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Speaker 1: And there are more social games out there. These games

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Speaker 1: are where your Apples to Apples or Cards against Humanity

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Speaker 1: will fall a million dollars. But is another social game

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Speaker 1: that's out there. And there are games that rely upon

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Speaker 1: expressions of creativity, such as pictionary or cranium. And then

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Speaker 1: there are games that rely heavily upon knowledge, whether it's

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Speaker 1: general or specific, like Trivial Pursuit or one of the

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Speaker 1: many themed trivia games that are out there, and that's

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Speaker 1: just a quick rundown the basic types of board game

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Speaker 1: and card games out there, excluding the more traditional card

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Speaker 1: games like poker or whist or bridge and things like that.

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Speaker 1: Each game requires designers to make very careful decisions to

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Speaker 1: ensure that the gameplay is fun and challenging without being

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Speaker 1: too frustrating or obtuse. And this is actually a pretty

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Speaker 1: tricky path to follow. Sometimes you just don't know if

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Speaker 1: a game mechanic is going to work until you actually

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Speaker 1: put players into the situation and see how it unfolds.

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Speaker 1: If the players seem confused about the mechanic or they

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Speaker 1: failed to use it properly, it could be an indication

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Speaker 1: that you need to tweak that element so that it's

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Speaker 1: more easily understood. Now, most games require a lot of

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Speaker 1: workshopping or play testing to get right. In fact, the

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Speaker 1: game of chess was created over the course of centuries.

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Speaker 1: It seems apparent that the early form of the game

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Speaker 1: arose along the Silk Road. And I'm talking about the

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Speaker 1: real silk Road, not the black market on the deep web.

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the pathways that merchants traveled more than

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Speaker 1: a thousand years ago when they were trading between cities,

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Speaker 1: so chess likely evolved from similar games that were played

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Speaker 1: in China, India, and Persia among other players places. So

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Speaker 1: players would bring up boards and pieces and incorporate rules

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Speaker 1: from their different cultures and their different travels into a

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Speaker 1: single game, and so the game of chess evolved over

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Speaker 1: time this way. It wasn't until the Renaissance that the

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Speaker 1: modern rules of chess really began to emerge. My point

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Speaker 1: here is that even games like chess went through a

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Speaker 1: lot of play testing, so this is not new now.

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Speaker 1: To get a better handle on what it's like designing

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Speaker 1: a game, I spoke with Jay Shaw and Joe Van

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Speaker 1: wetter Ing of Mando about making a game adaptation of

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Speaker 1: the nineteen two John Carpenter film The Thing. We'll listen

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Speaker 1: to that interview right after the short break. To thank

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Speaker 1: our sponsor, I'm really fortunate today to be joined by

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Speaker 1: a couple of guys over at Mondo really worked on

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Speaker 1: this game to make it what it was. And so, gentlemen,

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Speaker 1: if you would please introduce yourselves to the throngs of

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Speaker 1: listeners of tech stuff and uh and let us know

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Speaker 1: what it was that you did in regards to developing

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Speaker 1: this game. All right, Joe, you go first. Yeah. Sure.

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Speaker 1: My name's Joe Van Lettering and I'm the game designer.

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Speaker 1: There you go, keep it sweet. Uh. My name is

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Speaker 1: Jay Shaw. I'm a creative director at Mondo, and I

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Speaker 1: helped Joe. I like it. I like it. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's great because it's it's an accurate description of what

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Speaker 1: you've done, and yet gives us very little information to

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Speaker 1: go on at the very beginning, very much like being

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Speaker 1: in the thing, right, we were going to dig down

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Speaker 1: and discover in this process. And actually my first question

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Speaker 1: before we get into the mechanics of the game and

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Speaker 1: the development of the game is it's just the question

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Speaker 1: of why why John Carpenter's the thing? What was it? They? Where?

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Speaker 1: When did that idea kind of come into being about

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Speaker 1: developing a game based upon this classic film, which, by

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Speaker 1: the way, I actually I love that movie, so I'm

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Speaker 1: not being at all facetious here. Oh yeah, everybody loves it.

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Speaker 1: Um Yeah, it was interesting. I I started thinking about

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Speaker 1: doing board games of Mondo a few years ago and

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Speaker 1: just really kind of a as a fan of board

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Speaker 1: games type of thing where I said, man, it would

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Speaker 1: be really cool if we did a board game. That'd

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Speaker 1: be nice. We have no idea how to make a

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Speaker 1: board game, but it would be cool to do. And

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Speaker 1: that conversation just kept coming up at the office. It

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Speaker 1: kept coming up in phone calls and creative meetings and

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Speaker 1: just saying, yeah, I wish we did a board game.

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Speaker 1: I wish we did a board game. And finally it

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Speaker 1: went from which we did a board game too, we

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Speaker 1: should do a board game. Let's find somebody who knows

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Speaker 1: how to do it. Um. So, you know, the thing

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Speaker 1: was honestly the first game that I thought of, because

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Speaker 1: the movie is perfect for it. It's a it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a confined area much like a board. You've got

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Speaker 1: to you know, you've got a set group of people,

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Speaker 1: You've got conditions that feel very much like a game

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Speaker 1: of sorts. You know, it already kind of felt like

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Speaker 1: it was it didn't seem like it took a lot

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Speaker 1: to get that story from movie to board. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: I've reached out to Joe and started talking to him,

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Speaker 1: and you know, I'm lucky that he design board games

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Speaker 1: for a living. So that was really the genesis of

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Speaker 1: it was just this should be something we should do.

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. It's really cool because, as you say,

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Speaker 1: the story of the movie does lend itself to certain

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Speaker 1: game mechanics. There are certain games that that exist that

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Speaker 1: have some similarity to the mechanics in the thing. Uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, nothing that is a one to one certainly,

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Speaker 1: but there's there's certain ones that I kind of recognize,

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Speaker 1: Like there are elements to the game were Wolf. For

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Speaker 1: some people play it as afia the idea that you're

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Speaker 1: playing in a group. Some people in the group are

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Speaker 1: working at counter purposes for what the rest of the

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Speaker 1: group is trying to do, and meanwhile, the rest of

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Speaker 1: the group has no idea who they can trust and

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Speaker 1: who they cannot trust. Uh. The thing actually goes a

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Speaker 1: little bit further because even if you are on the

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Speaker 1: side of the thing, if you are one of the

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Speaker 1: the the compromised characters, you don't necessarily know if anyone

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Speaker 1: else is also compromised. So it makes it makes it

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Speaker 1: a little more tricky when you're trying to figure out

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Speaker 1: who you're trying to sabotage. But generally speaking, this is

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Speaker 1: one of those asymmetric games where you have two groups.

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Speaker 1: Originally it'll be I assume in individual versus the rest

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Speaker 1: of the group working at cross purposes, and as the

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Speaker 1: game unfolds, that dynamic continues to change. And obviously, in

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Speaker 1: order for you to have any sort of competitiveness in

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Speaker 1: this game, that means you have to make really careful

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Speaker 1: decisions about what the capabilities are of one group versus

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Speaker 1: the other. So, with all of that in mind, the

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Speaker 1: idea that you've got this hidden character who's working to

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Speaker 1: try and sabotage the rest of the group, I assumed

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Speaker 1: that meant that there was a lot of experimentation during

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Speaker 1: the entire design process to get that balance right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: you don't want you don't want the thing to be

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Speaker 1: so easy to defeat that the game is over in

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Speaker 1: ten minutes. But you don't want to make it so

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Speaker 1: difficult that there's maybe only a two percent chance that

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Speaker 1: everyone's going to get out, or even that a significant

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Speaker 1: number of people are going to get out. So take

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Speaker 1: me through. Now, you've made the decision to turn the

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Speaker 1: story of the Thing into a board game, and as

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Speaker 1: you've laid out the elements of the story lend itself

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Speaker 1: to that, where was the next step? What we're How

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Speaker 1: did you start to lay out the process of building

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Speaker 1: the game itself? Yes, so we first of all, I

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Speaker 1: watched the movie about one hundred times and just tried

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Speaker 1: to get a feel for every single aspect of the

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Speaker 1: movie and what feels right, what what's the storyline going

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Speaker 1: to be within the game, how does that translate? And

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Speaker 1: then I just started with a very very simple hidden

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Speaker 1: hitt and identity game, you know, just kind of like

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Speaker 1: a pass fail that's it, almost like a Mafia or Werewolf.

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Speaker 1: And then kind of took that base and brought in

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Speaker 1: parts from the movie, you know, brought in the outpost,

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Speaker 1: probably the flamethrower, that kind of stuff, and just kind

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Speaker 1: of built it out. And I'm going to tell you

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Speaker 1: right now, designing a hidden identity game is extremely tough

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Speaker 1: because I already have all the information here, right So

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Speaker 1: when I'm designing it, trying to go through a game

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Speaker 1: plan just by myself in my head, it's tough because

396
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Speaker 1: I already know all the information, that's what this game

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Speaker 1: is about. So I got a lot of help from

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Speaker 1: some co workers, some friends, lots of play testers just

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Speaker 1: to you know, see how do you play this game?

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Speaker 1: You know, what do you do at this point? So

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00:22:07,960 --> 00:22:10,800
Speaker 1: it was a hard process, but I feel pretty good

402
00:22:10,840 --> 00:22:13,360
Speaker 1: with the results. Yeah, there were a lot of There

403
00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,520
Speaker 1: was a lot of testing, and I remember when as

404
00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:19,280
Speaker 1: Joe was coming up with kind of these different iterations

405
00:22:19,280 --> 00:22:22,200
Speaker 1: of the game, we would he he'd give us a

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Speaker 1: chance to play it and say, here's here's sort of

407
00:22:24,600 --> 00:22:27,040
Speaker 1: a white box version of this. Why don't you guys

408
00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:28,880
Speaker 1: try it out and see what happens. We actually went

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Speaker 1: out to San Diego a couple of times to play

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Speaker 1: with play with that team, and it was really it

411
00:22:33,640 --> 00:22:36,520
Speaker 1: was interesting because we play it, we'd all kind of go, yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is good, we like it. This is a lot

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Speaker 1: of fun. But you could almost tell the Joe Joe

414
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Speaker 1: go yeah, this isn't there yet, this isn't working. I

415
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Speaker 1: don't I don't like the flow, I don't like the pace,

416
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Speaker 1: I don't like the length of the game. I don't

417
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Speaker 1: like how this plays with six people. I don't like

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Speaker 1: how this plays with eight people. So it was just

419
00:22:52,880 --> 00:22:55,919
Speaker 1: over and over and over again, tweaking and tweaking and

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00:22:55,920 --> 00:22:59,960
Speaker 1: tweaking until you know it's it's funny because little element

421
00:23:00,040 --> 00:23:02,960
Speaker 1: to get removed and it changes the entire game, Like

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Speaker 1: how do you decide who the captain is? Well, if

423
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Speaker 1: you do it this way, the game is really long.

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00:23:06,960 --> 00:23:09,360
Speaker 1: And it takes it's just, you know, too much downtime

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Speaker 1: for people. Well what if you do this, Oh cool,

426
00:23:11,560 --> 00:23:13,600
Speaker 1: this makes it a lot easier. This is a better flow.

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Speaker 1: So it was it was it was really kind of

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Speaker 1: cool to watch from the outside of it for the

429
00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,360
Speaker 1: development process to see how how tricky these things are

430
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Speaker 1: and how how tough it is to get the perfect

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Speaker 1: balance so that you've got that like really good game experience, Right, Yeah,

432
00:23:28,600 --> 00:23:33,360
Speaker 1: I imagine that. It's it's similar in ways to I

433
00:23:33,440 --> 00:23:35,800
Speaker 1: used to play D n D quite a bit in

434
00:23:35,880 --> 00:23:40,160
Speaker 1: my youth, and I would game master and you design

435
00:23:40,840 --> 00:23:44,120
Speaker 1: really cool scenarios and you're thinking, oh, man, when they

436
00:23:44,160 --> 00:23:47,440
Speaker 1: go down this hallway, it's gonna be so great because

437
00:23:47,440 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 1: you know everything and you just assume you know how

438
00:23:49,600 --> 00:23:51,040
Speaker 1: it's going to work. And then they're like, yeah, we're

439
00:23:51,040 --> 00:23:55,800
Speaker 1: gonna take a right. But there's and such same sort

440
00:23:55,800 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: of thing, like you you have to it's I understand

441
00:23:58,760 --> 00:24:01,480
Speaker 1: exactly what you were saying, Joe. It's it's very difficult

442
00:24:01,520 --> 00:24:05,800
Speaker 1: to simulate ignorance so that you can understand what how

443
00:24:05,840 --> 00:24:09,719
Speaker 1: the gameplay elements will actually unfold in real situation. So

444
00:24:10,080 --> 00:24:13,800
Speaker 1: tell me a little bit about how the game actually works.

445
00:24:13,840 --> 00:24:17,040
Speaker 1: So for those who are not familiar with the thing,

446
00:24:17,400 --> 00:24:21,480
Speaker 1: it is set in an outpost. Uh. It is completely

447
00:24:21,760 --> 00:24:26,040
Speaker 1: secluded from all civilization. There's no way of getting from

448
00:24:26,080 --> 00:24:32,320
Speaker 1: the outpost to someplace safe without taking an extensive helicopter ride. Uh.

449
00:24:32,359 --> 00:24:36,400
Speaker 1: And so you're you're pretty much stuck there. But how

450
00:24:36,440 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: does the game actually unfold? Yeah? Sure, So to start,

451
00:24:40,960 --> 00:24:44,000
Speaker 1: everyone gets a player board and it's one of the

452
00:24:44,080 --> 00:24:47,080
Speaker 1: characters from the movie. And then the next thing you

453
00:24:47,119 --> 00:24:50,879
Speaker 1: get is a hidden identity card, so you keep that

454
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: face down in front of you. Only you can look

455
00:24:53,000 --> 00:24:55,520
Speaker 1: at it, and it either says if you're a human

456
00:24:55,760 --> 00:24:59,359
Speaker 1: or if you've been compromised in your invitation. And to

457
00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,719
Speaker 1: start the game, there's only gonna ever be one imitation,

458
00:25:03,119 --> 00:25:05,080
Speaker 1: So you get that, and then you have a hand

459
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,520
Speaker 1: of supply cards, which are items you would find at

460
00:25:08,560 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: the outpost. It's you know, got the Petrie dish, you

461
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:16,800
Speaker 1: got copper wire, knife, gun, that kind of stuff. So

462
00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:18,960
Speaker 1: you have that in your hand. You have your identity

463
00:25:19,200 --> 00:25:22,560
Speaker 1: and then someone gets chosen as a captain. They draw

464
00:25:22,760 --> 00:25:25,920
Speaker 1: a mission card. They read it aloud. It tells you

465
00:25:26,000 --> 00:25:29,240
Speaker 1: how many people need to go on the mission with them,

466
00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:35,760
Speaker 1: and if there's any restrictions. So each player board has

467
00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:41,320
Speaker 1: a different team and you have science, maintenance, and operations.

468
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,240
Speaker 1: And each mission card will say okay, I need six people.

469
00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:49,320
Speaker 1: I need to operations and one science, so you have

470
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:53,160
Speaker 1: to take whoever those people are okay. So then the

471
00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: captain will read the mission. It'll say, you know, everyone

472
00:25:56,640 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: turning cards and you need to copper wire to pass.

473
00:26:00,880 --> 00:26:03,600
Speaker 1: So he goes around and says, okay, do you have

474
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:05,560
Speaker 1: copper wire? Do you have copper wire? You kind of

475
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,119
Speaker 1: get a feel for who he wants to bring on

476
00:26:08,160 --> 00:26:11,520
Speaker 1: the mission, and you choose a room on the map,

477
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:14,080
Speaker 1: and each room has a tile face down in it,

478
00:26:14,880 --> 00:26:18,480
Speaker 1: and once you go in a room, you do the

479
00:26:18,520 --> 00:26:21,199
Speaker 1: mission and if it everyone's gonna turn in cards, the

480
00:26:21,240 --> 00:26:24,400
Speaker 1: captain is gonna secretly look at them. So the captain

481
00:26:24,480 --> 00:26:27,520
Speaker 1: is the one with all the information here, so he'll know, oh,

482
00:26:27,600 --> 00:26:29,359
Speaker 1: you told me you have copper wire, but you were

483
00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:34,240
Speaker 1: actually lying. So he but again he has all the information.

484
00:26:34,359 --> 00:26:36,520
Speaker 1: He could say, oh, you said you had copper wire,

485
00:26:36,560 --> 00:26:38,960
Speaker 1: but I didn't get any from you. But you know, again,

486
00:26:39,040 --> 00:26:41,560
Speaker 1: the captain could be the one who's you know, the

487
00:26:41,560 --> 00:26:46,480
Speaker 1: imitation and trying to throw suspicion on other people, so

488
00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,240
Speaker 1: save the mission passes. The captain reveals all the cards.

489
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:53,040
Speaker 1: Everything's great, all humans. You flip the tile over in

490
00:26:53,040 --> 00:26:56,679
Speaker 1: the room and under the room tiles um you have

491
00:26:56,760 --> 00:27:01,440
Speaker 1: certain things you're looking for, and each and the outpost

492
00:27:01,520 --> 00:27:04,040
Speaker 1: is broken out into sectors, so you start with sector one.

493
00:27:04,640 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: You need a rope and you need to defeat a

494
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,359
Speaker 1: thing that's on the board. So at some point you're

495
00:27:10,400 --> 00:27:12,680
Speaker 1: gonna flip over a room tile and the thing's gonna

496
00:27:12,680 --> 00:27:14,719
Speaker 1: pop up, and you have to do this big battle

497
00:27:15,240 --> 00:27:18,240
Speaker 1: where the captain takes everyone on the that's already on

498
00:27:18,280 --> 00:27:21,320
Speaker 1: the team and collects more cards and rolls dice tried

499
00:27:21,359 --> 00:27:24,639
Speaker 1: to see it m So once you defeat it, you

500
00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: go back and you kind of have a discussion like, hey,

501
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:29,800
Speaker 1: what what happened there? Like I thought I trusted you

502
00:27:29,960 --> 00:27:34,240
Speaker 1: this and that um. All the while, the captain will

503
00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,760
Speaker 1: move to the next person and you just keep going

504
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:41,760
Speaker 1: on missions and the actual gameplay itself. You kind of

505
00:27:41,800 --> 00:27:44,159
Speaker 1: can pick up after a couple of times, but the

506
00:27:44,160 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 1: game is gonna be different every time depending on who

507
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,199
Speaker 1: you play it with, because certain people are gonna, you know,

508
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:53,200
Speaker 1: maybe play it pretty cool until the end, or some

509
00:27:53,240 --> 00:27:56,600
Speaker 1: people are just gonna go hard because there's uh these

510
00:27:56,640 --> 00:28:00,000
Speaker 1: red sabotage cards in there that it's in the Supply

511
00:28:00,000 --> 00:28:02,879
Speaker 1: I deck that you could secretly turn in and purposely

512
00:28:02,920 --> 00:28:06,920
Speaker 1: sabotage a mission. So once you go through the entire

513
00:28:06,960 --> 00:28:13,480
Speaker 1: outposts and you clear a certain nine tiles you find rope, imitation, dynamite,

514
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:16,600
Speaker 1: and the flamethrower, you get to go towards the escape phase.

515
00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:19,439
Speaker 1: So the goal there is there's a helicopter on the

516
00:28:19,440 --> 00:28:21,159
Speaker 1: board and you want to try to get to the

517
00:28:21,200 --> 00:28:25,160
Speaker 1: helicopter and escape, so that there's a final captain. Everyone's

518
00:28:25,160 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: gonna vote on this final captain, like, oh, do you

519
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: do you trust this person to make the team that's

520
00:28:30,320 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: going to try to escape? And everyone votes and it's

521
00:28:33,119 --> 00:28:37,440
Speaker 1: yes or no. And Finn captain. Once he's chosen, he's

522
00:28:37,480 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: just gonna go through and he's gonna pick in uh,

523
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,520
Speaker 1: let's say six player game, he's gonna pick three other

524
00:28:44,560 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: people to come with him. He chooses his people, they go,

525
00:28:48,080 --> 00:28:53,800
Speaker 1: they placed their movers on the helicopter tile, and one

526
00:28:53,840 --> 00:28:57,000
Speaker 1: by one everyone reveals their identities and if you have

527
00:28:57,040 --> 00:29:00,760
Speaker 1: all humans, you win game over. Great if a single

528
00:29:00,800 --> 00:29:04,440
Speaker 1: imitation makes it onto helicopter. They've made into the rest

529
00:29:04,480 --> 00:29:08,080
Speaker 1: of the world. Game over imitations when right, you've just

530
00:29:08,280 --> 00:29:13,680
Speaker 1: infected the entire world by unleashing this horrendous beast outside

531
00:29:13,680 --> 00:29:18,520
Speaker 1: of the secluded area. Yeah, and what's what's kind of fun. Um,

532
00:29:18,520 --> 00:29:21,280
Speaker 1: what's interesting is that as you clear out these sectors,

533
00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:24,920
Speaker 1: so in between each sector, uh, there's an infection phase

534
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:27,880
Speaker 1: that happens. So you know, there can be more imitations.

535
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 1: So you know, somebody who started the game as a

536
00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,760
Speaker 1: human playing perfectly fine, Um, they may at the end

537
00:29:32,760 --> 00:29:36,400
Speaker 1: of the game being imitation. So there's there is kind

538
00:29:36,400 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 1: of an interesting dynamic there where you start off with

539
00:29:38,760 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 1: this one limitation, you end up with three, you know,

540
00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:43,120
Speaker 1: at the end of the game, and you really don't

541
00:29:43,120 --> 00:29:45,680
Speaker 1: know who's who at what point. I mean, you maybe

542
00:29:45,720 --> 00:29:47,640
Speaker 1: have built complete trust in the person next to you,

543
00:29:48,120 --> 00:29:51,040
Speaker 1: but every time a sector gets cleared, that trust just

544
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,800
Speaker 1: has to vanish because you really have no idea what's

545
00:29:53,840 --> 00:29:57,200
Speaker 1: going on. And then the imitations. While the humans have

546
00:29:57,320 --> 00:30:00,400
Speaker 1: to get out with the perfect number of humans on

547
00:30:00,440 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: the helicopter, the invitations have a few ways to actually

548
00:30:03,440 --> 00:30:05,360
Speaker 1: win the game. They can't they don't just get on

549
00:30:05,400 --> 00:30:10,600
Speaker 1: the helicopter they can move this tracker up. For every

550
00:30:10,640 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: failed mission, for everything that goes terribly wrong, this tracker

551
00:30:14,240 --> 00:30:17,200
Speaker 1: moves up. And what as the tracker moves up, there

552
00:30:17,200 --> 00:30:20,600
Speaker 1: are more and more consequences to the humans. And once

553
00:30:20,680 --> 00:30:22,600
Speaker 1: that tracker moves all the way to the end, the

554
00:30:22,680 --> 00:30:25,960
Speaker 1: game's over. The invitations of one. They can destroy the base,

555
00:30:26,080 --> 00:30:29,560
Speaker 1: they can catch rooms on fire, they can absolutely you know,

556
00:30:29,720 --> 00:30:31,800
Speaker 1: make it so that there aren't enough resources to win.

557
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: So it really is kind of a it's a multi

558
00:30:35,760 --> 00:30:39,640
Speaker 1: kind of multifaceted thing where you know, as the invitations play,

559
00:30:39,880 --> 00:30:42,440
Speaker 1: some might play it, like Joe said, totally clean and

560
00:30:42,520 --> 00:30:44,520
Speaker 1: just pretend to be human and hope to get on

561
00:30:44,560 --> 00:30:47,040
Speaker 1: the helicopter by the end. But that's not always gonna

562
00:30:47,040 --> 00:30:49,800
Speaker 1: work because they haven't they haven't messed the game up

563
00:30:49,920 --> 00:30:52,800
Speaker 1: enough to really kind of make that make that work.

564
00:30:52,920 --> 00:30:56,560
Speaker 1: So you know, some imitations may play very destructive, and

565
00:30:56,920 --> 00:30:58,720
Speaker 1: you know, by the time you get through sector to

566
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,480
Speaker 1: the base is most completely destroyed. So there's a there

567
00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,920
Speaker 1: are there are a hundred different ways to kind of

568
00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:07,280
Speaker 1: plot and out of the you know, million times I've

569
00:31:07,280 --> 00:31:09,720
Speaker 1: played the game of you know which, most of that

570
00:31:09,720 --> 00:31:12,480
Speaker 1: time of limitation, I found all these different ways to

571
00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,400
Speaker 1: play it, and some are really effective against some players,

572
00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:18,160
Speaker 1: some are not effective at all. It's it's it's really interesting.

573
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:20,760
Speaker 1: There's a lot of there's a lot of dynamic there.

574
00:31:21,360 --> 00:31:24,200
Speaker 1: Unlike other games where you know it's just a quick

575
00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:26,880
Speaker 1: like pass fail and you're just trying to fail fail things,

576
00:31:28,040 --> 00:31:29,840
Speaker 1: this one's got that. There's a lot of nuance and

577
00:31:29,920 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 1: how this one's played. I imagine there's also a great

578
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:35,880
Speaker 1: challenge on the part of players. Let's say that you

579
00:31:35,920 --> 00:31:38,480
Speaker 1: start off as human and you end up being imitation

580
00:31:38,640 --> 00:31:43,280
Speaker 1: after clearing out a sector. Uh, then the the the

581
00:31:43,360 --> 00:31:45,760
Speaker 1: onus is on you as the player to try and

582
00:31:45,800 --> 00:31:48,520
Speaker 1: make sure you're not playing so differently than you were

583
00:31:48,600 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: before that. Immediately everyone is keyed into what has happened

584
00:31:53,360 --> 00:31:56,680
Speaker 1: the strategy there. Yeah, if you react to anything, or

585
00:31:56,800 --> 00:31:58,560
Speaker 1: you kind of all of a sudden you're just yeah,

586
00:31:58,600 --> 00:32:02,200
Speaker 1: you're acting a little squirrelly, people are gonna instantly I

587
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:04,400
Speaker 1: think there's something wrong with you. I mean, there's even

588
00:32:04,440 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: a there's even a deeper kind of level of play

589
00:32:07,240 --> 00:32:10,120
Speaker 1: for imitations where I played one game where I got

590
00:32:10,120 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 1: ahold of the Flamethrower and I was an imitation and

591
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,800
Speaker 1: I actually knew who another imitation was, So I killed

592
00:32:17,800 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: the other imitation. We all voted on it. They said

593
00:32:20,280 --> 00:32:23,400
Speaker 1: I could do it. I torched another imitation. At the table,

594
00:32:23,400 --> 00:32:26,040
Speaker 1: They're gone forever. They revealed their cards. Sure enough, they're

595
00:32:26,040 --> 00:32:28,760
Speaker 1: in imitation. I had the trust of the entire table.

596
00:32:28,800 --> 00:32:31,640
Speaker 1: There was no way they believed that I was an imitation.

597
00:32:32,280 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: Sure enough, I was got out on the help helicopter.

598
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:38,000
Speaker 1: I was voted the captain, got out of helicopter as

599
00:32:38,000 --> 00:32:40,320
Speaker 1: the captain. Uh. And that was great. It was like

600
00:32:40,360 --> 00:32:42,400
Speaker 1: the most It was super cathartic because you know, I

601
00:32:42,520 --> 00:32:45,840
Speaker 1: murdered another imitation. But that's what That's what a imitation

602
00:32:45,880 --> 00:32:48,720
Speaker 1: would do. It's all part of one organism. So why

603
00:32:48,080 --> 00:32:50,240
Speaker 1: not why not cut off an arm to be able

604
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: to get out and infect the world. Well, so, how

605
00:32:53,320 --> 00:32:56,760
Speaker 1: long did this development process take from the point where

606
00:32:57,200 --> 00:32:59,840
Speaker 1: you know, Joe, you came on board to win. It

607
00:33:00,120 --> 00:33:02,520
Speaker 1: was a game that had gone through playtesting and you

608
00:33:02,560 --> 00:33:05,120
Speaker 1: guys were feeling good about ready to go into production.

609
00:33:07,400 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 1: Yeah one did we start on that? Yeah? Exactly. Um,

610
00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:16,320
Speaker 1: I'd say it was probably a year and a half total.

611
00:33:17,040 --> 00:33:22,360
Speaker 1: And for design a game that's pretty quick, especially one

612
00:33:22,400 --> 00:33:25,440
Speaker 1: that has so many little complicated factors. I mean, every

613
00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:28,760
Speaker 1: individual game mechanic when you just look at it, you know,

614
00:33:29,000 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: sequestered from everything else, is fairly simple. But then you

615
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:34,800
Speaker 1: start adding them all together, and it adds this level

616
00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: of complexity where you are going to get very different

617
00:33:37,200 --> 00:33:40,640
Speaker 1: play experiences every time you go through it. So, uh,

618
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:44,240
Speaker 1: I imagine that, you know, again playing through and making sure, oh,

619
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,920
Speaker 1: did the new thing that we just added to the game,

620
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:50,680
Speaker 1: not literally thing necessarily, but the new element we just

621
00:33:50,720 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: added to the game, did that just break the game?

622
00:33:53,480 --> 00:33:55,400
Speaker 1: I imagine there was a lot of that. For example,

623
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:58,320
Speaker 1: you like in I know that in the game, as

624
00:33:58,360 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: in the movie, you have that that ability to test

625
00:34:03,760 --> 00:34:06,760
Speaker 1: someone like you can choose another player to test if

626
00:34:06,800 --> 00:34:10,279
Speaker 1: you have the right equipment to test their blood, and

627
00:34:10,280 --> 00:34:12,960
Speaker 1: then they have to reveal to you whether or not

628
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:16,040
Speaker 1: they are human or imitation. But at that point of course,

629
00:34:16,080 --> 00:34:18,440
Speaker 1: then it's up to you, the person who just did

630
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:21,600
Speaker 1: the testing, to convince everybody else that what you saw

631
00:34:21,760 --> 00:34:24,440
Speaker 1: was real or maybe not real if you are in

632
00:34:24,440 --> 00:34:27,319
Speaker 1: fact in imitation and trying to trick everybody. Uh. I

633
00:34:27,320 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: imagine that was one of those things where you you

634
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,759
Speaker 1: saw that scene in the film it's iconic that moment

635
00:34:31,760 --> 00:34:35,200
Speaker 1: where they're all together and they're being forced to test

636
00:34:35,239 --> 00:34:38,280
Speaker 1: their blood to prove whether or not they are human.

637
00:34:39,040 --> 00:34:40,440
Speaker 1: I imagine that was one of those things that you

638
00:34:40,520 --> 00:34:42,040
Speaker 1: knew you had to have in the game, but at

639
00:34:42,040 --> 00:34:44,319
Speaker 1: the same time, you can't. You can't have it be

640
00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,359
Speaker 1: something that can happen all the time or else the

641
00:34:46,480 --> 00:34:50,600
Speaker 1: imitations are revealed immediately. So how did those considerations come about?

642
00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:53,600
Speaker 1: Was that just sort of trial and error or was

643
00:34:53,640 --> 00:34:57,560
Speaker 1: there some other approach? Oh? Yeah, lots lots and lots

644
00:34:57,560 --> 00:34:59,959
Speaker 1: of play testing, ton of help from a lot of people.

645
00:35:00,800 --> 00:35:05,080
Speaker 1: Um so that I think that started off where there

646
00:35:05,160 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 1: was a flamethrower in the actual supply deck cards, and

647
00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,160
Speaker 1: there might have been like one or two in there.

648
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:14,800
Speaker 1: So it's originally, if you've got the flamethrower, a copper wire,

649
00:35:15,200 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: and a Petri dish, you can choose to test someone.

650
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:22,160
Speaker 1: But that was so random. It would not happen in

651
00:35:22,200 --> 00:35:24,560
Speaker 1: a single game, and then the next game would happen

652
00:35:24,640 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 1: three times, and it I just like to be able

653
00:35:28,920 --> 00:35:33,560
Speaker 1: to control when something like that happens, right, Um So

654
00:35:33,719 --> 00:35:36,719
Speaker 1: that's why when we finally figured it out. Okay, the

655
00:35:36,719 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 1: flamethrower will just be its own thing. It'll be a tile.

656
00:35:39,880 --> 00:35:42,920
Speaker 1: And at one point all the titles were random, you know,

657
00:35:43,040 --> 00:35:46,120
Speaker 1: you could just go anywhere on the board. So again,

658
00:35:46,320 --> 00:35:49,840
Speaker 1: like it made the games vastly different and that you

659
00:35:49,880 --> 00:35:54,200
Speaker 1: couldn't really control the gameplay experience. How you know, you

660
00:35:54,239 --> 00:35:58,920
Speaker 1: wanted it to feel similar to the movie. So when

661
00:35:58,960 --> 00:36:01,799
Speaker 1: we finally figured out, okay, you have sector one, sector two,

662
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:05,000
Speaker 1: sector three, and there will be different items and the tiles.

663
00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: So that's why we put the flamethrower in sector three.

664
00:36:08,400 --> 00:36:11,080
Speaker 1: So once you get to sector three, that's pretty much

665
00:36:11,080 --> 00:36:13,120
Speaker 1: the end of the game and you have to find

666
00:36:13,120 --> 00:36:17,880
Speaker 1: a flamethrower. So we're gonna make it so people will

667
00:36:18,320 --> 00:36:21,600
Speaker 1: you know, want to use this before the game ends,

668
00:36:21,640 --> 00:36:24,600
Speaker 1: and it's the end of the game. So if someone

669
00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:27,960
Speaker 1: kind of gets revealed, that's okay because you're not kind

670
00:36:27,960 --> 00:36:29,880
Speaker 1: of just sitting around for the rest of the game,

671
00:36:30,000 --> 00:36:34,600
Speaker 1: you know, being accused or whatever. So, um, it was

672
00:36:34,640 --> 00:36:39,880
Speaker 1: all about controlling when certain things happened. Yeah, and that

673
00:36:40,000 --> 00:36:42,239
Speaker 1: was like, oh and that was actually I was gonna

674
00:36:42,239 --> 00:36:44,040
Speaker 1: say that was that was one of the most eye

675
00:36:44,040 --> 00:36:46,680
Speaker 1: opening parts of watching the development of this game, because

676
00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,200
Speaker 1: you know, on the on the Mondo side on this, um,

677
00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,440
Speaker 1: you know, I mean ro Amando now. But you know,

678
00:36:52,600 --> 00:36:55,319
Speaker 1: at the when we were doing the development, I mean

679
00:36:55,320 --> 00:36:57,240
Speaker 1: we were really responsible for the art in the design,

680
00:36:57,440 --> 00:37:01,759
Speaker 1: and Joe was you know, completely took over just doing

681
00:37:01,760 --> 00:37:05,319
Speaker 1: the game design. So our contribution would be things like, hey,

682
00:37:05,400 --> 00:37:07,000
Speaker 1: what if we did this, would this be cool? This

683
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,040
Speaker 1: is from the movie. I watched the movie again last night,

684
00:37:09,080 --> 00:37:11,319
Speaker 1: Can we please do this? And you know you could

685
00:37:11,360 --> 00:37:14,360
Speaker 1: see poor Joe's head explode because it would be something

686
00:37:14,400 --> 00:37:17,120
Speaker 1: that was so mechanically difficult to put into a board game.

687
00:37:17,600 --> 00:37:20,920
Speaker 1: But there was this this moment where Joe got it

688
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:24,640
Speaker 1: all into this, into the sectors and with the tiles

689
00:37:24,640 --> 00:37:26,840
Speaker 1: that are in the sectors and the supplies that you're afforded.

690
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,239
Speaker 1: What that ended up doing is it actually became this

691
00:37:30,760 --> 00:37:33,759
Speaker 1: really really really tight narrative in a game where you

692
00:37:33,760 --> 00:37:35,480
Speaker 1: can go anywhere you want to do what you want

693
00:37:35,480 --> 00:37:37,839
Speaker 1: to do, choose who you want to choose to trust,

694
00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,840
Speaker 1: who you want to trust. It's it's so controlled in

695
00:37:40,880 --> 00:37:42,919
Speaker 1: the pacing. I mean, in the beginning of the game,

696
00:37:43,040 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: it's kind of it's easy and everybody's getting along and

697
00:37:45,600 --> 00:37:48,880
Speaker 1: doing just fine. By the middle of the game, all

698
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:50,799
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you've got a rope, and you know,

699
00:37:50,880 --> 00:37:53,000
Speaker 1: you can tie somebody up to the couch for that

700
00:37:53,040 --> 00:37:55,680
Speaker 1: turn so that they don't, you know, come with you

701
00:37:55,719 --> 00:37:57,919
Speaker 1: and mess something up. So all of a sudden, there's

702
00:37:58,000 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: like that that the bigness trust starts to happen, and

703
00:38:00,320 --> 00:38:03,359
Speaker 1: then by the end it's complete chaos and everybody's yelling

704
00:38:03,360 --> 00:38:05,279
Speaker 1: at each other and somebody got a flamethrough and oh

705
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: my god, what if the thing got a flamethrower? What

706
00:38:07,160 --> 00:38:09,560
Speaker 1: are we gonna do? So there's this really kind of

707
00:38:09,600 --> 00:38:14,120
Speaker 1: neat uh, like you said, this control of the moments

708
00:38:14,400 --> 00:38:17,160
Speaker 1: that were really important, to beats that were super important

709
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:20,319
Speaker 1: to the to the narrative there that I was. I

710
00:38:20,360 --> 00:38:22,280
Speaker 1: was really blown away once it once it all started

711
00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:24,799
Speaker 1: to come together, and every time we played it it

712
00:38:24,840 --> 00:38:29,040
Speaker 1: was different, but just as thrilling every time. Well and

713
00:38:29,040 --> 00:38:33,279
Speaker 1: and again that goes back to being evocative of the

714
00:38:33,920 --> 00:38:37,000
Speaker 1: film itself, which is all about paranoia. I mean, that's

715
00:38:37,200 --> 00:38:41,640
Speaker 1: ultimately what the thing is. It's the bit about this

716
00:38:41,640 --> 00:38:45,759
Speaker 1: this alien creature that is infecting people. That's you know,

717
00:38:45,840 --> 00:38:50,480
Speaker 1: that's the the the instigating factor. But the drama, of

718
00:38:50,480 --> 00:38:53,439
Speaker 1: course comes from all these different characters not knowing who

719
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:56,799
Speaker 1: they can trust, and that playing out throughout the rest

720
00:38:56,840 --> 00:38:59,400
Speaker 1: of the movie to the point where even at the

721
00:38:59,480 --> 00:39:03,239
Speaker 1: very end there's some questions that remain. So it's, um,

722
00:39:03,320 --> 00:39:07,239
Speaker 1: it's fantastic to see that being incorporated into gameplay so

723
00:39:07,280 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: that you you can have that experience. If there weren't uh,

724
00:39:11,120 --> 00:39:14,080
Speaker 1: these elements that would cause players to start screaming at

725
00:39:14,080 --> 00:39:17,440
Speaker 1: each other, that you wouldn't really have the thing. Maybe

726
00:39:17,440 --> 00:39:20,600
Speaker 1: a different John Carpenter movie, maybe I don't know, Big

727
00:39:20,600 --> 00:39:24,400
Speaker 1: Trouble and Little China or something. But so you mentioned

728
00:39:24,840 --> 00:39:28,760
Speaker 1: the Mondo working on the art. I mean, obviously Mondo

729
00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: is known for art design and for incredible posters and

730
00:39:33,400 --> 00:39:36,719
Speaker 1: other types of of tie ins with various types of

731
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:39,560
Speaker 1: pop culture. What were some of the was the John

732
00:39:39,600 --> 00:39:42,200
Speaker 1: Carverter film? Was that the like the one and only

733
00:39:42,239 --> 00:39:44,560
Speaker 1: influence or were there other influences when it came to

734
00:39:44,600 --> 00:39:48,520
Speaker 1: the art design for this game. Well, it's interesting because

735
00:39:48,880 --> 00:39:53,319
Speaker 1: we we hired Justin Ericsson to to do the art

736
00:39:53,440 --> 00:39:56,399
Speaker 1: and you know, Justin is one of those artists who

737
00:39:56,640 --> 00:40:00,000
Speaker 1: he'll do he does the best stuff with large product

738
00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:03,480
Speaker 1: jicks like he he really loves to dive in and

739
00:40:03,520 --> 00:40:05,799
Speaker 1: get into the details, get into the tiny stuff. He

740
00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,160
Speaker 1: did this really phenomenal Batman, the animated series box set

741
00:40:09,200 --> 00:40:11,279
Speaker 1: for us, the vinyl box set that we put out,

742
00:40:11,840 --> 00:40:14,480
Speaker 1: um and it's just head to toe gorgeous. Every piece

743
00:40:14,480 --> 00:40:17,239
Speaker 1: of that is is its own piece of art. So

744
00:40:17,320 --> 00:40:19,360
Speaker 1: when we were doing our first game, I mean, it

745
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:23,399
Speaker 1: was almost a default kind of artist selection. Who said,

746
00:40:23,440 --> 00:40:25,680
Speaker 1: Justin Rickson, that's the person that we trust right now.

747
00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:27,879
Speaker 1: We can have him do this for our first game.

748
00:40:27,920 --> 00:40:29,520
Speaker 1: We need him to do it. He'll take this thing

749
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:32,080
Speaker 1: and go nuts with it. And so he and I

750
00:40:32,120 --> 00:40:36,200
Speaker 1: really dove in and we we looked at the not

751
00:40:36,280 --> 00:40:39,560
Speaker 1: only the aesthetic of the movie, but a lot of

752
00:40:39,560 --> 00:40:42,920
Speaker 1: it is the aesthetic of you know, what would Outpost

753
00:40:42,960 --> 00:40:45,799
Speaker 1: thirty one? What would things from Outpost thirty one look like?

754
00:40:46,200 --> 00:40:49,319
Speaker 1: Things you don't really see necessarily, like, you know, I uh,

755
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:53,000
Speaker 1: like an operations manual, So what would it? What would

756
00:40:53,000 --> 00:40:56,920
Speaker 1: an arctic you know, kind of research station in two?

757
00:40:57,000 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: What would their ops manual look like? That's what our

758
00:41:00,040 --> 00:41:01,959
Speaker 1: manual should look like. That's what a rule book should

759
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,800
Speaker 1: look like for the game. And you know what would

760
00:41:04,920 --> 00:41:07,279
Speaker 1: what would an employee file look like? There is there

761
00:41:07,280 --> 00:41:08,960
Speaker 1: anything we can add to that that would be kind

762
00:41:08,960 --> 00:41:11,000
Speaker 1: of cool. How can we do personnel files and how

763
00:41:11,000 --> 00:41:13,839
Speaker 1: do we So we were really trying to extract from

764
00:41:13,880 --> 00:41:17,840
Speaker 1: a bit of the utilitarian design that would exist in

765
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:23,120
Speaker 1: a US Antarctic research station. You know, there's it's it's

766
00:41:23,160 --> 00:41:26,279
Speaker 1: fortunate and unfortunate. But unfortunately the film, you know, it

767
00:41:26,280 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: takes place in snow, there isn't there isn't really this

768
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,000
Speaker 1: kind of lush like, you know, there's not a lot

769
00:41:32,040 --> 00:41:35,400
Speaker 1: of color other than blue and white. Um, you know,

770
00:41:35,680 --> 00:41:40,080
Speaker 1: the location itself is very unsexy. It's not it's not

771
00:41:40,160 --> 00:41:42,200
Speaker 1: some cool sci fi thing with a bunch of chrome

772
00:41:42,280 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: and all this neat stuff. It's just this really kind

773
00:41:44,760 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 1: of bland base. So that was one of the biggest

774
00:41:47,640 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 1: challenges was you know, kind of making this still look

775
00:41:50,400 --> 00:41:53,400
Speaker 1: really really cool. So diving into a lot of the

776
00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, let's have fun with taking real artifacts out

777
00:41:57,160 --> 00:41:59,520
Speaker 1: of this base and seeing how we would design those.

778
00:41:59,640 --> 00:42:02,120
Speaker 1: That's that's where it started to really come together, and

779
00:42:02,160 --> 00:42:04,360
Speaker 1: it you know, it feels like something from the film,

780
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:08,600
Speaker 1: but also just feels like something very real cool. Well,

781
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,000
Speaker 1: were there any elements that you were hoping to include

782
00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,760
Speaker 1: in the game that just didn't make it in. Maybe

783
00:42:14,800 --> 00:42:18,320
Speaker 1: there was something that just it just could not work

784
00:42:18,400 --> 00:42:22,520
Speaker 1: within the components that you had designed, or uh, something

785
00:42:22,520 --> 00:42:25,439
Speaker 1: that that you just could not really figure out how

786
00:42:25,480 --> 00:42:30,520
Speaker 1: to make that a gameplay mechanic. Joe, did you have anything? Um,

787
00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:32,799
Speaker 1: I'm trying to think. I mean, we had a ton

788
00:42:32,880 --> 00:42:35,520
Speaker 1: that was the thing. We really we threw everything at

789
00:42:35,560 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: it in the very beginning, and you know, you've got

790
00:42:37,680 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 1: to you have to scale back, and you've got to

791
00:42:39,880 --> 00:42:43,399
Speaker 1: you definitely need to kind of pull things away more

792
00:42:43,440 --> 00:42:46,080
Speaker 1: than add things. Um, but I don't know if there

793
00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,760
Speaker 1: was anything huge that we completely missed that we didn't

794
00:42:48,760 --> 00:42:51,920
Speaker 1: get to do. There is one element and that element

795
00:42:51,960 --> 00:42:55,399
Speaker 1: will be uh will be revealed as a as an

796
00:42:55,400 --> 00:42:59,600
Speaker 1: expansion to this game. So yeah, there is that. We

797
00:42:59,640 --> 00:43:01,799
Speaker 1: did have one big one um that we all just

798
00:43:01,840 --> 00:43:03,239
Speaker 1: sort of went, God, it would be so cool if

799
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,560
Speaker 1: this happened, and then it was turned into no, wait,

800
00:43:06,640 --> 00:43:08,840
Speaker 1: let's just make that happen. That's cool, it's we'll do

801
00:43:08,880 --> 00:43:10,759
Speaker 1: an ad on. That's fine, we can actually do this.

802
00:43:11,480 --> 00:43:14,480
Speaker 1: But yes, aside from you know, I think everything was

803
00:43:14,520 --> 00:43:16,160
Speaker 1: in there. I mean, I honestly I can't think of

804
00:43:16,200 --> 00:43:20,000
Speaker 1: anything that we left out or just regrettably weren't able

805
00:43:20,040 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 1: to put in. I mean, we've been got the you know,

806
00:43:22,120 --> 00:43:25,359
Speaker 1: McCready's chess computer is a you know, is a three

807
00:43:25,440 --> 00:43:27,400
Speaker 1: D piece that you move along the tracker. I mean

808
00:43:27,440 --> 00:43:29,640
Speaker 1: it's little stuff like that where you go. Wouldn't it

809
00:43:29,640 --> 00:43:31,480
Speaker 1: be good if we could do this? And then somebody says, well,

810
00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:34,839
Speaker 1: why don't we nice? Good, Yeah, let's actually do it.

811
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,600
Speaker 1: I love that all the pieces are are you know,

812
00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:39,560
Speaker 1: those are the actual characters. It's not like a little

813
00:43:39,600 --> 00:43:42,960
Speaker 1: generic marker. You've got the actual characters that you get

814
00:43:43,000 --> 00:43:45,960
Speaker 1: to play with, uh, which I mean I would have

815
00:43:46,000 --> 00:43:50,120
Speaker 1: expected that from Mondo, so totally makes sense. But uh. Yeah,

816
00:43:50,520 --> 00:43:53,840
Speaker 1: the designs that I've looked at, and full disclosure, I

817
00:43:53,880 --> 00:43:56,200
Speaker 1: haven't seen this in person. I've only I've watched a

818
00:43:56,200 --> 00:43:58,080
Speaker 1: lot of videos and looked at a lot of art.

819
00:43:58,520 --> 00:44:02,000
Speaker 1: Uh and uh, I love the design. Also, I feel

820
00:44:02,400 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 1: very very strongly as a John Carpenter fan, that if

821
00:44:05,640 --> 00:44:08,080
Speaker 1: you are to play this game, especially for the first time,

822
00:44:08,120 --> 00:44:13,280
Speaker 1: you need to have just that that synth soundtrack playing

823
00:44:13,320 --> 00:44:17,160
Speaker 1: in the background. Absolutely, yeah, you really do. Um And

824
00:44:17,239 --> 00:44:19,000
Speaker 1: to give it to give a shout out to uh

825
00:44:19,080 --> 00:44:21,879
Speaker 1: one of our partners out there, Waxwork Records actually put

826
00:44:21,880 --> 00:44:25,400
Speaker 1: out The Thing on vinyl and it's a stellar release.

827
00:44:25,560 --> 00:44:28,000
Speaker 1: So when you go out and buy your Thing board game,

828
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:30,800
Speaker 1: please make it a point to get the John Carpenter's

829
00:44:30,840 --> 00:44:36,680
Speaker 1: The Thing on vinyl to listen to it alongside. Absolutely. Yeah,

830
00:44:36,760 --> 00:44:39,759
Speaker 1: Justin Ericson actually did Dark as well. Yeah, this was

831
00:44:39,800 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: a great kind of crossover. We had no idea, you know,

832
00:44:42,680 --> 00:44:45,040
Speaker 1: because we don't it's not like we share what we're

833
00:44:45,040 --> 00:44:48,840
Speaker 1: working on behind the scenes with everybody. But yeah, when, um,

834
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:51,839
Speaker 1: when Waxwork announced that they had that they were doing

835
00:44:51,880 --> 00:44:54,399
Speaker 1: the Thing and they showed the fantastic artwork and it's

836
00:44:54,440 --> 00:44:58,200
Speaker 1: really cool package design. I called Ericson and I was like,

837
00:44:58,239 --> 00:45:00,000
Speaker 1: how in the world were you working on the same

838
00:45:00,120 --> 00:45:02,239
Speaker 1: property at the same time for two different companies And

839
00:45:02,280 --> 00:45:04,960
Speaker 1: you said nothing, And that guy is just's he's a

840
00:45:05,080 --> 00:45:07,680
Speaker 1: he's a total h he's a total pro. And he said, no,

841
00:45:07,800 --> 00:45:09,319
Speaker 1: it was cool. It was really good. I got to

842
00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,640
Speaker 1: just do two completely different ideas for the same movie.

843
00:45:12,680 --> 00:45:15,319
Speaker 1: But yeah, Ericson was in Thingville for a long time there.

844
00:45:15,960 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 1: That's fantastic. Guys, Jay and Joe, thank you so much

845
00:45:20,239 --> 00:45:23,040
Speaker 1: for joining me on the show and talking about this

846
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:25,719
Speaker 1: this project. I look forward to playing it. I've got

847
00:45:25,719 --> 00:45:27,560
Speaker 1: a lot of friends who are big into board games.

848
00:45:27,560 --> 00:45:31,920
Speaker 1: They're also colossal geeks like myself. I say that with

849
00:45:32,080 --> 00:45:35,680
Speaker 1: love that we we love games, we love pop culture,

850
00:45:35,719 --> 00:45:38,680
Speaker 1: and uh, there's more than a few like die hard

851
00:45:38,760 --> 00:45:41,279
Speaker 1: John Carpenter fans. Also, more than a few of them

852
00:45:41,320 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 1: here at How Stuff Works. Two of them are in

853
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:46,080
Speaker 1: this very room that I'm sitting in. So uh so

854
00:45:46,360 --> 00:45:48,279
Speaker 1: this is this is definitely the game that's made for

855
00:45:48,360 --> 00:45:51,520
Speaker 1: folks like myself. If people want to pick up a

856
00:45:51,520 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: copy of the thing, where would they go? So it's

857
00:45:54,360 --> 00:45:57,920
Speaker 1: arriving right now actually on local game store shelves. Um,

858
00:45:58,000 --> 00:46:00,680
Speaker 1: so we've got it's everything has come in and it's

859
00:46:00,760 --> 00:46:03,759
Speaker 1: just making its way out to shelves now. Um we

860
00:46:03,800 --> 00:46:08,600
Speaker 1: will have our Mondo Edition of this game. And that's uh,

861
00:46:08,920 --> 00:46:12,040
Speaker 1: that's the special edition of it. It's limited to one

862
00:46:12,640 --> 00:46:16,040
Speaker 1: two copies. Um, it's got different box are a slip case,

863
00:46:16,280 --> 00:46:20,640
Speaker 1: some additional pieces and some some goodies inside that will

864
00:46:20,640 --> 00:46:24,360
Speaker 1: be available for the first time at Mondo Con next weekend,

865
00:46:24,560 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 1: and then whatever we have left over from that we'll

866
00:46:27,719 --> 00:46:30,880
Speaker 1: put online shortly after. But right now, you can you know,

867
00:46:30,960 --> 00:46:35,000
Speaker 1: call your local game store and go pick it up. Sweet. Well, guys,

868
00:46:35,040 --> 00:46:38,000
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining the show. Yeah, thank

869
00:46:38,040 --> 00:46:41,040
Speaker 1: you very much, and then we'll take another quick break

870
00:46:41,160 --> 00:46:54,719
Speaker 1: to thank our sponsor. Thanks again to Jay and Joe

871
00:46:54,760 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 1: for joining our show to talk about their work on

872
00:46:56,760 --> 00:46:59,200
Speaker 1: the game. Now, as you heard, figuring out exactly how

873
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:02,200
Speaker 1: to create a game be challenging. One thing that really

874
00:47:02,280 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: helps is having a specific theme in mind. In this case,

875
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:08,560
Speaker 1: Mondo wanted to capture that feeling of paranoia and isolation

876
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:11,799
Speaker 1: that defines the thing. Now, that can help a great

877
00:47:11,840 --> 00:47:14,200
Speaker 1: deal when you're working on the game mechanics. Anything that

878
00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:17,840
Speaker 1: contributes to that feeling and allows players to progress or

879
00:47:17,880 --> 00:47:22,279
Speaker 1: perhaps encounter setbacks is a potential keeper. Anything that detracts

880
00:47:22,280 --> 00:47:25,279
Speaker 1: from that experience needs to be tweaked or tossed. So

881
00:47:25,360 --> 00:47:27,120
Speaker 1: let's say you decide you want you want to make

882
00:47:27,160 --> 00:47:29,920
Speaker 1: a game. You've you've got the itch. You're like thinking,

883
00:47:29,960 --> 00:47:31,759
Speaker 1: I've got a great idea for a game. How would

884
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:35,400
Speaker 1: you go about doing this? Well, one thing I recommend

885
00:47:35,520 --> 00:47:38,799
Speaker 1: is looking up an article written by David Silverman, and

886
00:47:38,840 --> 00:47:42,240
Speaker 1: that article is titled how to learn Board Game Design

887
00:47:42,360 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 1: and Development. If you google David Silverman and how to

888
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,000
Speaker 1: learn board game design and development. It will pop right up.

889
00:47:48,480 --> 00:47:50,560
Speaker 1: That article has got some great tips in it. I'm

890
00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:52,920
Speaker 1: going to share a few here, but it really do

891
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,120
Speaker 1: suggest you check out the full article to learn more,

892
00:47:55,120 --> 00:47:57,200
Speaker 1: because I'm just going to kind of highlight some stuff

893
00:47:57,200 --> 00:48:00,719
Speaker 1: that Mr Silverman points out in his article how One

894
00:48:00,840 --> 00:48:03,279
Speaker 1: tip is to do something similar to what the guys

895
00:48:03,280 --> 00:48:05,239
Speaker 1: at Mondo did, which is to pick a theme for

896
00:48:05,280 --> 00:48:08,000
Speaker 1: your game and use that theme to help determine which

897
00:48:08,080 --> 00:48:11,719
Speaker 1: game mechanics should be included. In the case of the Thing,

898
00:48:11,800 --> 00:48:13,839
Speaker 1: the designers knew they need to have an element of

899
00:48:13,880 --> 00:48:17,440
Speaker 1: distrust and suspicion built right into the game mechanics, and

900
00:48:17,480 --> 00:48:20,759
Speaker 1: having one player secretly working at cross purposes against all

901
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:25,080
Speaker 1: the others does the trick nicely. Silverman also suggests that

902
00:48:25,200 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: you look at some games that you really enjoy playing

903
00:48:28,120 --> 00:48:31,400
Speaker 1: and then at that point either add in new mechanics

904
00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:35,719
Speaker 1: or try removing certain existing mechanics from that game and

905
00:48:35,760 --> 00:48:38,360
Speaker 1: see how that affects the gameplay of the game. This

906
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:42,680
Speaker 1: helps you understand which gameplay mechanic elements are critical to

907
00:48:42,760 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 1: making it work and how they fit together. So it's

908
00:48:46,200 --> 00:48:49,839
Speaker 1: kind of playing through experience and learning how these game

909
00:48:49,840 --> 00:48:54,120
Speaker 1: mechanics actually affect gameplay. Again, taking the Thing as an example,

910
00:48:54,320 --> 00:48:57,120
Speaker 1: we can look at an identity game like Werewolf and

911
00:48:57,160 --> 00:48:59,279
Speaker 1: see how that applies. So let's say we take the

912
00:48:59,280 --> 00:49:01,520
Speaker 1: game Werewolf and we say, how could we adapt this

913
00:49:02,040 --> 00:49:04,120
Speaker 1: to make it the Thing. Well, for those of you

914
00:49:04,120 --> 00:49:06,279
Speaker 1: who do not know what Werewolf is, the game is

915
00:49:06,320 --> 00:49:09,560
Speaker 1: pretty simple. It's played with a group of people. You

916
00:49:09,600 --> 00:49:13,279
Speaker 1: typically have a moderator who is kind of judging what's

917
00:49:13,320 --> 00:49:15,799
Speaker 1: happening and watching what's happening at the entire time, and

918
00:49:15,840 --> 00:49:18,480
Speaker 1: then everyone else is a player. Uh. You usually want

919
00:49:18,480 --> 00:49:22,160
Speaker 1: to have around seven players or more. Odd number is

920
00:49:22,239 --> 00:49:26,080
Speaker 1: better than an even number. Typically, within that group of players,

921
00:49:26,160 --> 00:49:29,399
Speaker 1: one or more of the people are designated as werewolves

922
00:49:29,680 --> 00:49:32,680
Speaker 1: and the other players are villagers, and they don't know

923
00:49:32,880 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: who is a werewolf versus who is a villager. The

924
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:40,440
Speaker 1: game has two major segments to each turn. There's a

925
00:49:40,560 --> 00:49:45,080
Speaker 1: nighttime segment and a daytime segment. Let's take daytime first.

926
00:49:45,160 --> 00:49:48,400
Speaker 1: During the daytime, the players, all the players, the villagers,

927
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:51,040
Speaker 1: and the werewolves included, and remember the villagers don't know

928
00:49:51,080 --> 00:49:54,040
Speaker 1: who is a werewolf. They all try to suss out

929
00:49:54,239 --> 00:49:56,839
Speaker 1: who amongst them is a werewolf. The people who are

930
00:49:56,880 --> 00:50:00,960
Speaker 1: werewolves are obviously trying to push suspect away from them

931
00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:05,600
Speaker 1: and toward innocent players. At the end of the day turn,

932
00:50:06,080 --> 00:50:08,760
Speaker 1: they can vote to put someone to death, upon which

933
00:50:09,239 --> 00:50:11,360
Speaker 1: that person who has put to death would reveal his

934
00:50:11,480 --> 00:50:13,799
Speaker 1: or her identity and reveal whether or not they were

935
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,160
Speaker 1: a werewolf. Or you could also just try and gather

936
00:50:16,239 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: information and wait to see what happens at the night turn.

937
00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:22,920
Speaker 1: So at night, including the very first turn of the game,

938
00:50:23,280 --> 00:50:25,480
Speaker 1: the werewolves are allowed to make their move. So at

939
00:50:25,480 --> 00:50:28,600
Speaker 1: the first turn, everyone is supposed to close their eyes

940
00:50:28,640 --> 00:50:31,440
Speaker 1: and the moderator says, werewolves, open your eyes, and the

941
00:50:31,440 --> 00:50:34,439
Speaker 1: werewolves can all look at it around and see who

942
00:50:34,440 --> 00:50:37,400
Speaker 1: else as their eyes open, and thus identify one another

943
00:50:38,040 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: on that first turn. Then they decide which innocent villager

944
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:46,480
Speaker 1: they want to eliminate that evening, and assuming that villager

945
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,800
Speaker 1: is not saved by someone else's actions during the night turn,

946
00:50:50,640 --> 00:50:54,200
Speaker 1: that person is dead come morning, and then the villagers

947
00:50:54,239 --> 00:50:55,880
Speaker 1: have to try and figure out who is the werewolf.

948
00:50:56,080 --> 00:50:59,560
Speaker 1: There are some special villager types that can actually save someone,

949
00:50:59,600 --> 00:51:03,360
Speaker 1: but they have to do it without really knowing who

950
00:51:03,520 --> 00:51:06,680
Speaker 1: they're who they should, you know, protect so there's a

951
00:51:06,760 --> 00:51:09,840
Speaker 1: character type called the doctor, and the doctor can heal

952
00:51:10,800 --> 00:51:15,239
Speaker 1: one person per night, and after the werewolf after their

953
00:51:15,239 --> 00:51:17,800
Speaker 1: turn is over and they close their eyes, the moderator

954
00:51:17,800 --> 00:51:20,920
Speaker 1: would say, all right, doctor, open your eyes, and whoever

955
00:51:21,040 --> 00:51:22,880
Speaker 1: is playing the doctor would open his or her eyes

956
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:27,040
Speaker 1: pick someone in the group to save, and if they're lucky,

957
00:51:27,160 --> 00:51:30,279
Speaker 1: they're saving the person that the werewolves have attacked. And

958
00:51:30,320 --> 00:51:32,680
Speaker 1: then the doctor closes his or her eyes. And then

959
00:51:32,680 --> 00:51:36,000
Speaker 1: there's one last character called the Seer, and the Seer

960
00:51:36,160 --> 00:51:39,319
Speaker 1: is able to point at any other character and look

961
00:51:39,320 --> 00:51:41,480
Speaker 1: at the moderator, and the moderator essentially gives a thumbs

962
00:51:41,560 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 1: up saying yes, that person is a werewolf, or a

963
00:51:43,239 --> 00:51:45,200
Speaker 1: thumbs down saying no, that person is not a werewolf.

964
00:51:46,160 --> 00:51:48,759
Speaker 1: Play continues, So the werewolves their goal. They want to

965
00:51:48,840 --> 00:51:50,919
Speaker 1: try and eliminate the Seer and the doctor as early

966
00:51:50,960 --> 00:51:53,960
Speaker 1: as possible so that the villagers don't have any protection.

967
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:57,359
Speaker 1: The villagers obviously want to identify the werewolves, and it's

968
00:51:57,440 --> 00:51:59,839
Speaker 1: during the daytime when everyone gets to accuse everybody else

969
00:51:59,880 --> 00:52:03,080
Speaker 1: in try the werewolves trying to capitalize on that paranoia

970
00:52:03,120 --> 00:52:06,960
Speaker 1: and suspicion. Very similar gameplay element that would play out

971
00:52:07,000 --> 00:52:09,880
Speaker 1: in the Thing, although obviously in the board game of

972
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,799
Speaker 1: the Thing they tweaked this gameplay element quite a bit

973
00:52:13,200 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 1: and they add a lot more to it. But it's

974
00:52:15,520 --> 00:52:17,839
Speaker 1: kind of taking that approach that Silverman said. You take

975
00:52:17,880 --> 00:52:21,040
Speaker 1: this game element that you find really compelling, and then

976
00:52:21,080 --> 00:52:22,840
Speaker 1: you say, all right, well, how can I use this

977
00:52:23,000 --> 00:52:25,560
Speaker 1: same sort of idea but in a new transformative way,

978
00:52:25,600 --> 00:52:28,160
Speaker 1: so I'm not just treading the same ground someone else

979
00:52:28,160 --> 00:52:30,359
Speaker 1: has already done. And of course even in where Wolf

980
00:52:30,400 --> 00:52:33,440
Speaker 1: there are more advanced rules, there's some other special types

981
00:52:33,480 --> 00:52:36,879
Speaker 1: of villagers have been added into variations of Werewolf, and

982
00:52:37,080 --> 00:52:39,120
Speaker 1: just like that, you could see the same sort of

983
00:52:39,800 --> 00:52:43,400
Speaker 1: complexity creeping into the Thing, although again the Thing adds

984
00:52:43,440 --> 00:52:46,080
Speaker 1: even more elements with rooms and missions and things like

985
00:52:46,120 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 1: that that are not in Werewolf at all. Um with

986
00:52:50,080 --> 00:52:53,000
Speaker 1: the way things unfolding the Thing game, it's probably a

987
00:52:53,040 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: good idea to avoid having all of the impostors know

988
00:52:56,239 --> 00:52:59,360
Speaker 1: for certain which other players are bad guys. So in

989
00:52:59,440 --> 00:53:02,520
Speaker 1: were Wolf, all the werewolves know who is a werewolf

990
00:53:02,520 --> 00:53:06,640
Speaker 1: and who isn't. And the Thing, the the impostors, the

991
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,959
Speaker 1: the actual aliens that are posing as human, they don't

992
00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:13,000
Speaker 1: know who any you know, they don't know if there

993
00:53:13,040 --> 00:53:15,920
Speaker 1: are any other impostors there. They don't know the identity

994
00:53:16,000 --> 00:53:19,240
Speaker 1: of them. They're working without that knowledge. But that's probably

995
00:53:19,239 --> 00:53:21,279
Speaker 1: a good idea because they already have a lot of

996
00:53:21,320 --> 00:53:24,760
Speaker 1: advantages over the human players. There are so many different

997
00:53:24,760 --> 00:53:26,880
Speaker 1: steps the humans have to take in order to score

998
00:53:26,920 --> 00:53:29,480
Speaker 1: a win, so adding even more challenge with a united

999
00:53:29,600 --> 00:53:33,120
Speaker 1: enemy might make the game all but impossible for the humans.

1000
00:53:33,120 --> 00:53:36,839
Speaker 1: So Silverman suggests a game designers should also write down

1001
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:39,680
Speaker 1: all their ideas for the game, including notes that this

1002
00:53:40,360 --> 00:53:43,960
Speaker 1: described the intent for those ideas. So, for example, if

1003
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:45,640
Speaker 1: you were to say that you know, you can't allow

1004
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,600
Speaker 1: people to just leave the confines of the board, the

1005
00:53:48,719 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: intent of that rule might be that you want to

1006
00:53:51,040 --> 00:53:53,840
Speaker 1: keep that sense of confinement in the game, And it

1007
00:53:53,880 --> 00:53:56,520
Speaker 1: may turn out later on in development that you want

1008
00:53:56,560 --> 00:53:58,560
Speaker 1: to change the game design, but you still want to

1009
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:00,600
Speaker 1: stay true to the intent. You don't want people to

1010
00:54:00,600 --> 00:54:04,120
Speaker 1: feel confined, But you perhaps have found a different way

1011
00:54:04,160 --> 00:54:07,520
Speaker 1: to be true to that intent that works better for

1012
00:54:07,560 --> 00:54:09,719
Speaker 1: the game as a game mechanic, and that's a good thing.

1013
00:54:10,440 --> 00:54:13,080
Speaker 1: So that's something you actually want to strive for. Some

1014
00:54:13,160 --> 00:54:14,640
Speaker 1: of the other things you'll need to think about will

1015
00:54:14,680 --> 00:54:17,359
Speaker 1: be pretty basics, such as how many people should be

1016
00:54:17,400 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 1: involved in a play session. It's often best to aim

1017
00:54:19,880 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: for a range of players, because if you create a

1018
00:54:21,680 --> 00:54:23,840
Speaker 1: game that has to be played with a specific number,

1019
00:54:24,520 --> 00:54:26,400
Speaker 1: that limits your audience, and it can also lead to

1020
00:54:26,520 --> 00:54:28,719
Speaker 1: very frustrating experiences, like if you're at a party and

1021
00:54:28,760 --> 00:54:31,040
Speaker 1: you realize, oh, this game is for four players and

1022
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:33,720
Speaker 1: we have five people, someone has to sit out. Figuring

1023
00:54:33,719 --> 00:54:36,520
Speaker 1: out how players act, how they are meant to interact

1024
00:54:36,560 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: with one another, and how long the game should be

1025
00:54:38,400 --> 00:54:41,759
Speaker 1: are also basic questions that are worth asking, you know. Um,

1026
00:54:42,280 --> 00:54:44,440
Speaker 1: keep in mind that players can and will choose to

1027
00:54:44,440 --> 00:54:47,120
Speaker 1: do things that you didn't anticipate. So it's your job

1028
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:50,400
Speaker 1: as game designer to create the framework within which players

1029
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:53,480
Speaker 1: can enjoy the game. That might include creating some strict rules,

1030
00:54:53,880 --> 00:54:56,759
Speaker 1: perhaps even some rules that some players might think are

1031
00:54:56,880 --> 00:55:00,360
Speaker 1: arbitrarily restrictive. But if you leave a game's rules super

1032
00:55:00,400 --> 00:55:02,759
Speaker 1: open and flexible, that puts so much more pressure on

1033
00:55:02,800 --> 00:55:05,480
Speaker 1: everyone who's playing the game to keep things working properly,

1034
00:55:05,840 --> 00:55:08,040
Speaker 1: and it can lead to a lot of ambiguous game events,

1035
00:55:08,040 --> 00:55:11,360
Speaker 1: which is not terribly satisfying. You might feel the temptation

1036
00:55:11,840 --> 00:55:14,880
Speaker 1: to make your game incredibly complicated and rich with detail.

1037
00:55:15,280 --> 00:55:17,920
Speaker 1: That's not necessarily a bad thing. You may want it

1038
00:55:17,960 --> 00:55:20,799
Speaker 1: so that the feeling is more closely aligned to what

1039
00:55:20,880 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: you had in mind when you came up with the concept.

1040
00:55:23,360 --> 00:55:26,799
Speaker 1: Let's say it's a weird fiction game that's set in

1041
00:55:26,840 --> 00:55:29,960
Speaker 1: a Cathulu like universe. There might be a lot of

1042
00:55:30,000 --> 00:55:33,960
Speaker 1: complex rules to dictate how characters interact with that world.

1043
00:55:34,360 --> 00:55:37,760
Speaker 1: But complexity also adds in a tougher learning curve for players,

1044
00:55:38,040 --> 00:55:40,279
Speaker 1: and it can end up being too restrictive and frustrating

1045
00:55:40,280 --> 00:55:43,640
Speaker 1: if it's not dealt with properly. Silverman actually suggests simplifying

1046
00:55:43,680 --> 00:55:46,719
Speaker 1: your game as you develop it, streamlining elements so that

1047
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:48,839
Speaker 1: you end up with the most important and fun game

1048
00:55:48,880 --> 00:55:52,000
Speaker 1: mechanics and you toss aside anything that's laborious or detracts

1049
00:55:52,040 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 1: from the feel of the game. Silverman also suggests that

1050
00:55:55,040 --> 00:55:58,040
Speaker 1: you go easy on the prototypes, so when you're making

1051
00:55:58,040 --> 00:56:01,560
Speaker 1: your first prototype game, don't go all out. Make sure

1052
00:56:01,600 --> 00:56:05,160
Speaker 1: you create items that will represent the actual game mechanics.

1053
00:56:05,200 --> 00:56:07,799
Speaker 1: You do want to have those things there, but don't

1054
00:56:07,800 --> 00:56:10,359
Speaker 1: spend too much time on designs when there's the very

1055
00:56:10,400 --> 00:56:13,320
Speaker 1: real possibility that you'll need to do revisions and perhaps

1056
00:56:13,360 --> 00:56:16,719
Speaker 1: even extensive revisions when you're ready to make the next iteration.

1057
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:20,680
Speaker 1: If you spend hours and hours meticulously designing game tiles

1058
00:56:20,719 --> 00:56:23,359
Speaker 1: like you're illustrating them and they look beautiful, and you've

1059
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:25,920
Speaker 1: done all the sketches and the color and all of that,

1060
00:56:26,040 --> 00:56:28,360
Speaker 1: and then you find out the tile system you created

1061
00:56:28,480 --> 00:56:31,399
Speaker 1: isn't much fun, well, that was a lot of time

1062
00:56:31,440 --> 00:56:33,359
Speaker 1: you could have spent on other elements of the game,

1063
00:56:33,600 --> 00:56:36,520
Speaker 1: and it's time you're not going to get back. Playtesting

1064
00:56:36,560 --> 00:56:39,040
Speaker 1: is also obviously a very big part of this process.

1065
00:56:39,080 --> 00:56:41,399
Speaker 1: Sometimes you just can't tell how well a mechanic will

1066
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,400
Speaker 1: hold up until you see it put in use by

1067
00:56:43,440 --> 00:56:46,320
Speaker 1: real players, and it really is easy for one additional

1068
00:56:46,400 --> 00:56:48,880
Speaker 1: element to mess up something that had been part of

1069
00:56:48,920 --> 00:56:52,240
Speaker 1: the game's design from the very beginning. Q A testers

1070
00:56:52,239 --> 00:56:54,760
Speaker 1: are familiar with the idea that with every new feature

1071
00:56:54,840 --> 00:56:56,680
Speaker 1: you have the potential to break a lot of the

1072
00:56:56,680 --> 00:56:59,520
Speaker 1: old ones. This is also true with board games, just

1073
00:56:59,560 --> 00:57:03,360
Speaker 1: as it is with websites and other things, So something

1074
00:57:03,360 --> 00:57:06,520
Speaker 1: that seemed like a great idea after a playtest session

1075
00:57:06,600 --> 00:57:08,960
Speaker 1: might turn out to be a game breaking device when

1076
00:57:08,960 --> 00:57:12,120
Speaker 1: you put it into practice. Playtesting also helps you identify

1077
00:57:12,239 --> 00:57:14,680
Speaker 1: the features that are working and the ones that are not.

1078
00:57:15,400 --> 00:57:18,920
Speaker 1: Silverman also recommends recording playtest sessions so that you can

1079
00:57:19,040 --> 00:57:22,600
Speaker 1: reference specific times when something important happens during a game.

1080
00:57:22,840 --> 00:57:25,240
Speaker 1: It might be something that's good and you'll want to

1081
00:57:25,280 --> 00:57:27,920
Speaker 1: figure out how to make that more important and prominent

1082
00:57:27,960 --> 00:57:29,360
Speaker 1: in the game. You might think, well, this was a

1083
00:57:29,400 --> 00:57:32,280
Speaker 1: really special moment. I want to make sure that this

1084
00:57:32,320 --> 00:57:36,120
Speaker 1: special moment happens more frequently, not so frequently as to

1085
00:57:36,200 --> 00:57:40,600
Speaker 1: lose its special ness, but to happen enough so that

1086
00:57:40,640 --> 00:57:43,080
Speaker 1: it's not you know, a once in a million kind

1087
00:57:43,080 --> 00:57:47,120
Speaker 1: of chance. Or maybe that a playtesting session leads to

1088
00:57:47,200 --> 00:57:49,760
Speaker 1: questions that don't have answers yet and you realize, oh,

1089
00:57:49,800 --> 00:57:52,720
Speaker 1: I need to address this. Recording the sessions really makes

1090
00:57:52,720 --> 00:57:55,120
Speaker 1: it a lot easier to focus on the important aspects.

1091
00:57:55,960 --> 00:57:58,600
Speaker 1: Silverman also walks you through how to get a game published,

1092
00:57:59,000 --> 00:58:02,520
Speaker 1: whether it's self publication or otherwise. Now, I feel that

1093
00:58:02,640 --> 00:58:05,240
Speaker 1: goes beyond the scope of what I'm trying to do here,

1094
00:58:05,320 --> 00:58:09,640
Speaker 1: so again I recommend you go find David Silverman's article again.

1095
00:58:09,680 --> 00:58:12,960
Speaker 1: It's titled how to learn Board Game Design and Development.

1096
00:58:13,320 --> 00:58:15,800
Speaker 1: It's quite well written and has a lot more information

1097
00:58:15,800 --> 00:58:18,680
Speaker 1: on the subject there. I do not know David Silverman,

1098
00:58:19,120 --> 00:58:22,120
Speaker 1: I have no connection with him at all, but I

1099
00:58:22,160 --> 00:58:25,160
Speaker 1: really did like the article quite a bit. Games, I

1100
00:58:25,200 --> 00:58:28,200
Speaker 1: feel are experiencing a real surge in popularity these days.

1101
00:58:28,200 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 1: It's been happening over the last several years. Particularly games

1102
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,360
Speaker 1: that bring people together in the same place at the

1103
00:58:33,400 --> 00:58:36,280
Speaker 1: same time, so board games and card games. And even

1104
00:58:36,320 --> 00:58:40,000
Speaker 1: if you have no intention of ever making a game yourself,

1105
00:58:40,360 --> 00:58:42,200
Speaker 1: I think it's pretty fascinating to look at all the

1106
00:58:42,280 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 1: things that go into making a game come together and

1107
00:58:45,040 --> 00:58:47,960
Speaker 1: to make it work. And I hope you enjoyed this episode,

1108
00:58:47,960 --> 00:58:51,200
Speaker 1: whether you're an avid gamer, a casual game player, maybe

1109
00:58:51,200 --> 00:58:53,320
Speaker 1: you're a game developer, or maybe you really never gave

1110
00:58:53,360 --> 00:58:56,040
Speaker 1: the subject much thought before. I want to thank Joe

1111
00:58:56,040 --> 00:58:58,640
Speaker 1: and j from Mondo again for taking the time to

1112
00:58:58,760 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 1: chat with me. Mondo may some really cool stuff, including

1113
00:59:02,320 --> 00:59:04,560
Speaker 1: some killer posters that I love to collect, so you

1114
00:59:04,560 --> 00:59:06,880
Speaker 1: should go and check them out. If you have any

1115
00:59:06,920 --> 00:59:10,800
Speaker 1: suggestions for future episodes of tech Stuff, whether it's a company,

1116
00:59:10,880 --> 00:59:13,600
Speaker 1: a technology, a person. Maybe there's someone you want me

1117
00:59:13,640 --> 00:59:16,160
Speaker 1: to have on as either a guest to interview or

1118
00:59:16,200 --> 00:59:19,280
Speaker 1: a guest co host, let me know send me a message.

1119
00:59:19,360 --> 00:59:22,400
Speaker 1: The email address is tech Stuff at how stuff works

1120
00:59:22,440 --> 00:59:24,600
Speaker 1: dot com, or you can drop me a line on

1121
00:59:24,600 --> 00:59:26,920
Speaker 1: Facebook or Twitter. The handle of both of those is

1122
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,920
Speaker 1: text stuff hs W. Remember I record episodes live on

1123
00:59:31,000 --> 00:59:34,920
Speaker 1: Wednesdays and Friday's on twitch dot tv slash tech Stuff.

1124
00:59:35,200 --> 00:59:37,160
Speaker 1: Just go to that link and you can find the

1125
00:59:37,240 --> 00:59:40,120
Speaker 1: schedule there. I hope to see you in the chat room.

1126
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:42,600
Speaker 1: I always like to chat with you people whenever I

1127
00:59:42,680 --> 00:59:46,160
Speaker 1: have ad brakes and and before and after shows. So

1128
00:59:46,560 --> 00:59:48,400
Speaker 1: hope to see you there and I'll talk to you

1129
00:59:48,480 --> 00:59:57,720
Speaker 1: again really soon. For more on this and thousands of

1130
00:59:57,720 --> 01:00:05,560
Speaker 1: other topics because it hou stoff works dot com. Wond