1 00:00:15,516 --> 00:00:23,436 Speaker 1: Pushkin. As you'll know by now, we made a series 2 00:00:23,516 --> 00:00:27,836 Speaker 1: to investigate where power lies in the porn industry. This episode, 3 00:00:28,036 --> 00:00:32,276 Speaker 1: like all the others, contains adult themes, including references to 4 00:00:32,556 --> 00:00:42,996 Speaker 1: disturbing and illegal content. Around two years ago, I discovered 5 00:00:43,036 --> 00:00:46,476 Speaker 1: that the world's biggest porn company had a secret owner, 6 00:00:47,436 --> 00:00:50,516 Speaker 1: a man who lived like a shadow for nearly a decade. 7 00:00:51,636 --> 00:00:55,316 Speaker 1: Finding him turned out to be my gateway into the 8 00:00:55,436 --> 00:00:59,596 Speaker 1: maze of the pornography business. The discovery that set us 9 00:00:59,596 --> 00:01:02,796 Speaker 1: off to report on four decades of breakneck change in 10 00:01:02,836 --> 00:01:06,796 Speaker 1: the industry, and when you boil it down, each era 11 00:01:06,996 --> 00:01:12,356 Speaker 1: involves money moving from one wealthy pornographer to another. But 12 00:01:12,476 --> 00:01:17,436 Speaker 1: today thanks are different. With platforms such as Only Fans, 13 00:01:17,836 --> 00:01:21,036 Speaker 1: it has never been easier for performers to shoot content 14 00:01:21,476 --> 00:01:24,756 Speaker 1: on their own terms and sell it straight to fans 15 00:01:25,076 --> 00:01:30,076 Speaker 1: on demand, which yes, equals more money for them, So 16 00:01:30,316 --> 00:01:36,076 Speaker 1: all good, right, Not so fast. I specialize mostly in 17 00:01:36,116 --> 00:01:41,436 Speaker 1: fetish stuff, so financial domination just bitchy braddy stuff. That's 18 00:01:41,436 --> 00:01:45,996 Speaker 1: Ali Knox. She's creative and bright, like many performers we've 19 00:01:45,996 --> 00:01:49,276 Speaker 1: met in the series, and to make a living, she 20 00:01:49,396 --> 00:01:53,476 Speaker 1: hasn't just relied on being a Dominatrix. She has carved 21 00:01:53,476 --> 00:01:57,356 Speaker 1: out other personas too, thank you for being here playing 22 00:01:57,356 --> 00:02:01,276 Speaker 1: with me today, So I thought I tease you a 23 00:02:01,276 --> 00:02:06,796 Speaker 1: little today, to play a little bit. Fans also love 24 00:02:06,916 --> 00:02:10,516 Speaker 1: to watch Alie smoke weed. Would she buys legally at 25 00:02:10,516 --> 00:02:13,716 Speaker 1: her local dispensary in Las Vegas. She could make her 26 00:02:13,756 --> 00:02:18,196 Speaker 1: own videos smoking weed, and she had platforms where she 27 00:02:18,196 --> 00:02:22,316 Speaker 1: could sell them. In her words, she was sovereign and 28 00:02:22,356 --> 00:02:25,756 Speaker 1: when we say her, fans loved it. Ali can make 29 00:02:25,836 --> 00:02:30,476 Speaker 1: around a thousand dollars a month reselling mostly old videos 30 00:02:30,516 --> 00:02:35,516 Speaker 1: of her getting stoned, or she could until payments companies 31 00:02:35,956 --> 00:02:40,596 Speaker 1: got cold feet. A few months ago, probably January February. 32 00:02:40,796 --> 00:02:43,236 Speaker 1: I started noticing that my videos were being rejected. So 33 00:02:43,276 --> 00:02:46,356 Speaker 1: if I would upload something, the platform would say, no, 34 00:02:46,516 --> 00:02:48,436 Speaker 1: you can't have this, you had drugs in it, or 35 00:02:48,476 --> 00:02:50,236 Speaker 1: you had smoking. We don't allow this anymore, or you 36 00:02:50,316 --> 00:02:54,076 Speaker 1: violated the terms and why. It took her quite a 37 00:02:54,076 --> 00:02:56,956 Speaker 1: lot of digging around, but in the end, one of 38 00:02:56,956 --> 00:03:00,716 Speaker 1: the platforms she used most got back to her. They 39 00:03:00,716 --> 00:03:04,796 Speaker 1: were scared of losing access to the big credit card networks. 40 00:03:05,836 --> 00:03:08,396 Speaker 1: I can't put any videos of me smoking weed on 41 00:03:08,436 --> 00:03:11,036 Speaker 1: the internet any or MasterCard has come through and said 42 00:03:11,036 --> 00:03:12,996 Speaker 1: that there can be no drug use, even though again 43 00:03:13,116 --> 00:03:16,356 Speaker 1: it's legal. This might not sound like such a big deal. 44 00:03:17,116 --> 00:03:20,276 Speaker 1: Portant performers have for years not been allowed to drink 45 00:03:20,316 --> 00:03:24,996 Speaker 1: alcohol in their films. This was surely just another one 46 00:03:25,036 --> 00:03:28,036 Speaker 1: of those rules, a way to tighten up standards and 47 00:03:28,396 --> 00:03:32,796 Speaker 1: protect people on set. But for Ali, losing a big 48 00:03:32,876 --> 00:03:37,396 Speaker 1: chunk of her livelihood didn't feel like added security. So 49 00:03:37,436 --> 00:03:39,156 Speaker 1: now if I can't do that, I gotta go find 50 00:03:39,156 --> 00:03:41,476 Speaker 1: where I'm going to make that thousand dollars. Because my 51 00:03:41,516 --> 00:03:44,876 Speaker 1: mortgage hasn't changed, my car payments haven't changed. So am 52 00:03:44,876 --> 00:03:46,556 Speaker 1: I going to have to go to the street? Am 53 00:03:46,596 --> 00:03:48,356 Speaker 1: I going to have to escort? Am I still going 54 00:03:48,436 --> 00:03:50,116 Speaker 1: to have to start crossing on my boundaries? And all 55 00:03:50,116 --> 00:03:53,516 Speaker 1: of those things happened when credit card processing fucks with 56 00:03:53,596 --> 00:03:58,276 Speaker 1: our income. What's so odd about Ali's situation is that 57 00:03:58,316 --> 00:04:02,356 Speaker 1: it comes after she found a degree of independence. She 58 00:04:02,436 --> 00:04:06,036 Speaker 1: could make and sell her own content just as long 59 00:04:06,476 --> 00:04:09,036 Speaker 1: as she had a payment channel. I had no idea 60 00:04:09,116 --> 00:04:13,276 Speaker 1: when I got in the industry that my biggest, my 61 00:04:13,316 --> 00:04:15,396 Speaker 1: biggest hurdle was going to be like how do I 62 00:04:15,436 --> 00:04:18,076 Speaker 1: get paid? I thought I was going to meet a 63 00:04:18,116 --> 00:04:20,436 Speaker 1: crazy agent or I was going to be unsafe on 64 00:04:20,436 --> 00:04:22,076 Speaker 1: a porn set, all the things that people tell you, 65 00:04:22,156 --> 00:04:23,836 Speaker 1: I never knew that my biggest risk was going to 66 00:04:23,916 --> 00:04:27,556 Speaker 1: be how I can pay my bills. She is trying 67 00:04:27,556 --> 00:04:31,596 Speaker 1: to use crypto, but it's tough. She first has to 68 00:04:31,596 --> 00:04:34,796 Speaker 1: convince people to use it, which can take days, then 69 00:04:34,916 --> 00:04:38,556 Speaker 1: arrange for the payment, then wait fifteen minutes or so 70 00:04:38,756 --> 00:04:44,196 Speaker 1: to confirm the transaction. It's far from ideal for impulse purchases. 71 00:04:45,156 --> 00:04:48,236 Speaker 1: And this is what Ali Knox has in common with 72 00:04:48,316 --> 00:04:52,276 Speaker 1: the biggest porn companies in the world. It doesn't matter 73 00:04:52,476 --> 00:04:56,356 Speaker 1: if you're the owner of porn Hub or one woman enterprise. 74 00:04:57,076 --> 00:05:03,116 Speaker 1: The Visa and MasterCard networks can hobble your business. Payment companies, 75 00:05:03,356 --> 00:05:06,716 Speaker 1: in the end set the limits of how any porn 76 00:05:06,796 --> 00:05:16,076 Speaker 1: business can make money. So who are the people taking 77 00:05:16,156 --> 00:05:21,236 Speaker 1: these kinds of decisions? Who decides what everybody from Alley 78 00:05:21,356 --> 00:05:23,796 Speaker 1: to the owners of the biggest porn sites in the 79 00:05:23,836 --> 00:05:28,876 Speaker 1: world can put on the Internet. In our final episode, 80 00:05:29,716 --> 00:05:33,836 Speaker 1: we pull back the curtain and meet the real rulers 81 00:05:33,996 --> 00:05:40,476 Speaker 1: of porn. I'm Patricia Nelson, I'm Alex Barker from Pushkin 82 00:05:40,556 --> 00:06:15,756 Speaker 1: Industries and the Financial Times. This is Hot Money Act 83 00:06:15,836 --> 00:06:26,556 Speaker 1: one the Windowless Room. In previous episodes, we explained Visa 84 00:06:26,596 --> 00:06:30,756 Speaker 1: and master Card were powerful enough to cripple Pornhub and 85 00:06:30,796 --> 00:06:35,956 Speaker 1: mind Geek, and how payment networks, day by day influence 86 00:06:36,036 --> 00:06:38,956 Speaker 1: what can be made on a commercial porn set. The 87 00:06:39,116 --> 00:06:42,836 Speaker 1: real mystery to us was how did they get into 88 00:06:42,876 --> 00:06:46,956 Speaker 1: a position like this. It's not like these payment companies 89 00:06:47,276 --> 00:06:50,916 Speaker 1: want to be seen as pawn regulators. They didn't ask 90 00:06:50,956 --> 00:06:53,596 Speaker 1: for the job, and they don't like talking about it. 91 00:06:54,116 --> 00:06:58,236 Speaker 1: Both companies declined to do an interview with us, but 92 00:06:59,156 --> 00:07:02,276 Speaker 1: we did manage to track down two guys who used 93 00:07:02,316 --> 00:07:06,356 Speaker 1: to be on the inside. Two guys who between them, 94 00:07:06,396 --> 00:07:11,076 Speaker 1: spent a total of thirty years at Visa. First meet 95 00:07:11,236 --> 00:07:17,436 Speaker 1: a dapper suite called Stanley Skogland I was the enforcer 96 00:07:17,436 --> 00:07:21,636 Speaker 1: of Visas rules for a number of years. Stanley In 97 00:07:21,796 --> 00:07:26,356 Speaker 1: left Visa around a decade ago, but he witnessed the 98 00:07:26,876 --> 00:07:31,196 Speaker 1: crucial period for our story, the moment that Visa and 99 00:07:31,276 --> 00:07:36,436 Speaker 1: master Card became the reluctant rulers of porn land. How 100 00:07:36,476 --> 00:07:43,476 Speaker 1: step by step the companies waded into porn regulation. It 101 00:07:43,636 --> 00:07:47,956 Speaker 1: started with the explosion of the Internet. Payments suddenly went 102 00:07:48,076 --> 00:07:53,116 Speaker 1: from in person transactions to virtual ones. They relied on trust, 103 00:07:53,356 --> 00:07:57,516 Speaker 1: on everybody playing by the rules, and in the early days, 104 00:07:57,916 --> 00:08:01,836 Speaker 1: pawn was the big test. It wasn't just the credit 105 00:08:01,836 --> 00:08:05,956 Speaker 1: card scammers. People would pay for pawn and then if 106 00:08:05,996 --> 00:08:08,716 Speaker 1: their partner found the credit card bill, a lot of 107 00:08:08,756 --> 00:08:13,356 Speaker 1: them were denial knowledge and demand a refund. Porn was 108 00:08:13,396 --> 00:08:16,276 Speaker 1: a hot topic, not from a moral point of view, 109 00:08:16,556 --> 00:08:20,036 Speaker 1: but because it was so desirable. But also people didn't 110 00:08:20,116 --> 00:08:25,316 Speaker 1: want to get caught using pornography. That's why it became 111 00:08:25,356 --> 00:08:29,396 Speaker 1: a big thing, you know, from a fraud perspective. So 112 00:08:29,436 --> 00:08:32,556 Speaker 1: the banks then took that to VA said you have 113 00:08:32,636 --> 00:08:34,796 Speaker 1: to do something about this. This has to stop because 114 00:08:34,796 --> 00:08:40,796 Speaker 1: we're inundated. In the early two thousands, Stanley reckons porn 115 00:08:40,916 --> 00:08:46,116 Speaker 1: made up roughly ten to fifteen percent Visa's online transaction volumes. 116 00:08:46,996 --> 00:08:51,396 Speaker 1: It was too big to ignore, and along with the fraud, 117 00:08:52,556 --> 00:08:56,356 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard realized they had to work out ways 118 00:08:56,396 --> 00:09:01,156 Speaker 1: to deal with content too, the really bad stuff like 119 00:09:01,756 --> 00:09:06,796 Speaker 1: videos of child abuse. For some reason, those people who 120 00:09:07,236 --> 00:09:10,556 Speaker 1: are interested in that, they found the Internet a very 121 00:09:10,676 --> 00:09:16,756 Speaker 1: useful place very early on. Unfortunately, it would always be clandestine, 122 00:09:16,996 --> 00:09:20,316 Speaker 1: it would never be obviously child pawn, you know, inc 123 00:09:20,516 --> 00:09:24,156 Speaker 1: come here and buy your images. So it was quite deceptive. 124 00:09:24,276 --> 00:09:27,476 Speaker 1: I would say. It meant VISA had to build up 125 00:09:27,476 --> 00:09:31,676 Speaker 1: its intelligence, find some way to track the Internet and 126 00:09:31,796 --> 00:09:35,196 Speaker 1: the site selling pawn. But who was going to do 127 00:09:35,276 --> 00:09:39,956 Speaker 1: that well? In the mid nineties, the man in charge 128 00:09:39,956 --> 00:09:44,156 Speaker 1: of risk at VISA was a well regarded former FBI 129 00:09:44,196 --> 00:09:50,916 Speaker 1: agent called Dick Held. And no, Dick Held wasn't his 130 00:09:51,036 --> 00:09:55,636 Speaker 1: cover name. Dick Held really was the guy who started 131 00:09:55,716 --> 00:10:00,236 Speaker 1: to figure out how to regulate Internet porn. There was 132 00:10:00,316 --> 00:10:06,116 Speaker 1: no obvious solution. Visa's initial idea was just to set 133 00:10:06,236 --> 00:10:10,676 Speaker 1: up a special porn monitoring team worked from a windowless 134 00:10:10,756 --> 00:10:16,276 Speaker 1: room deep inside Visa's headquarters in the San Francisco Bay area. 135 00:10:16,476 --> 00:10:19,396 Speaker 1: Did you ever get in the room? And this is 136 00:10:19,436 --> 00:10:24,556 Speaker 1: where we want to introduce VISA guy number two, Kevin Smith. 137 00:10:27,116 --> 00:10:30,276 Speaker 1: You heard from him in an earlier episode. He's a 138 00:10:30,276 --> 00:10:36,516 Speaker 1: payments expert and Kevin loves payments. His face lights up 139 00:10:36,876 --> 00:10:40,996 Speaker 1: when talking about pin codes and zip zap machines, the 140 00:10:41,116 --> 00:10:44,076 Speaker 1: things that would take imprints of credit cards in the 141 00:10:44,156 --> 00:10:49,956 Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. For seventeen years, Kevin worked her Visa, often 142 00:10:50,036 --> 00:10:53,956 Speaker 1: handling issues related to high risk merchants, in other words, 143 00:10:54,516 --> 00:10:59,356 Speaker 1: pawn and that's how he knew about the windowless room. 144 00:10:59,436 --> 00:11:01,756 Speaker 1: It was this strange thing. It was. Yes, everyone knew 145 00:11:01,796 --> 00:11:04,996 Speaker 1: of it, but it was it wasn't clandestine's secret. It 146 00:11:05,036 --> 00:11:07,996 Speaker 1: just wasn't talked about. I mean, it's if you look 147 00:11:07,996 --> 00:11:10,636 Speaker 1: at it in hindsight, it just didn't sound right that 148 00:11:11,396 --> 00:11:15,196 Speaker 1: Visa actually had this group of people that were manually 149 00:11:16,156 --> 00:11:19,836 Speaker 1: going out there trying to find violations and get them 150 00:11:19,836 --> 00:11:25,236 Speaker 1: shut down. I mean, it's a horrible job, incredibly laborious 151 00:11:25,236 --> 00:11:29,476 Speaker 1: and manual and probably highly ineffective, which is why you 152 00:11:29,516 --> 00:11:32,396 Speaker 1: needed to find a more technical solution to address it quickly. 153 00:11:32,996 --> 00:11:35,996 Speaker 1: By the end of the nineties, Visa shut down the 154 00:11:36,076 --> 00:11:41,796 Speaker 1: pawn room. They pretty quickly realized that way madness lies. 155 00:11:42,756 --> 00:11:46,676 Speaker 1: They knew they could never effectively screen all the horrors 156 00:11:46,676 --> 00:11:50,436 Speaker 1: of the Internet, and they realized there was a much 157 00:11:50,476 --> 00:11:56,796 Speaker 1: better option. They could delegate. They could outsource spying on 158 00:11:56,956 --> 00:12:01,436 Speaker 1: porn to somebody else and payment system the banks and 159 00:12:01,556 --> 00:12:05,716 Speaker 1: billers and service providers, and the Visa and MasterCard networks. 160 00:12:06,756 --> 00:12:11,916 Speaker 1: But to outsource anything, Visa needed rules for others to apply, 161 00:12:12,956 --> 00:12:16,316 Speaker 1: and when you're a global business on an issue like pawn. 162 00:12:17,356 --> 00:12:19,756 Speaker 1: That's easier said than done. If you look at it 163 00:12:19,916 --> 00:12:24,956 Speaker 1: a child pornography. Everyone agrees that it's horrible, nobody wants 164 00:12:24,956 --> 00:12:27,796 Speaker 1: to be associated with it. But actually there are many 165 00:12:27,836 --> 00:12:30,516 Speaker 1: countries around the world that don't actually have any legislation 166 00:12:30,556 --> 00:12:34,076 Speaker 1: that says, in this jurisdiction child pornography is illegal. For 167 00:12:34,156 --> 00:12:39,316 Speaker 1: a company like Visa operating across the globe, even defining 168 00:12:39,396 --> 00:12:44,636 Speaker 1: what is outright illegal and definitely shouldn't be processed can 169 00:12:44,716 --> 00:12:49,516 Speaker 1: be tricky. Visa's main regulations run to something like nine 170 00:12:49,596 --> 00:12:53,956 Speaker 1: hundred pages. Pawn is a tiny, tiny fraction of that, 171 00:12:54,596 --> 00:12:58,356 Speaker 1: but it played a special role in how the rules developed. 172 00:12:59,116 --> 00:13:02,596 Speaker 1: Pawn was one of the first areas where card companies 173 00:13:02,916 --> 00:13:08,356 Speaker 1: built an enforcement system to manage risky online business. When 174 00:13:08,476 --> 00:13:11,396 Speaker 1: Visa and master Cards started to clamp down in the 175 00:13:11,436 --> 00:13:15,876 Speaker 1: early two thousands, one adult payments veteran told us it 176 00:13:15,916 --> 00:13:21,996 Speaker 1: was like the sheriff coming to Pawntown. Real regulation, registration rules, 177 00:13:22,476 --> 00:13:31,476 Speaker 1: supervision requirements, even find The unique nature of porn also 178 00:13:31,556 --> 00:13:35,676 Speaker 1: made Visa and master Card deviate from a cherished principle. 179 00:13:36,796 --> 00:13:41,556 Speaker 1: These payment networks succeed by being everywhere, and they can 180 00:13:41,596 --> 00:13:46,396 Speaker 1: only do that by supporting all lawful commerce without taking 181 00:13:46,396 --> 00:13:53,196 Speaker 1: immoral stance. Neutrality is good for business. Porn was the exception. 182 00:13:54,156 --> 00:13:58,196 Speaker 1: In the two thousands, Visa decided that since their brands 183 00:13:58,316 --> 00:14:03,796 Speaker 1: gave porn sides credibility helping consumers trust them, they couldn't 184 00:14:03,836 --> 00:14:07,276 Speaker 1: ignore what the porn sides were selling, even if it 185 00:14:07,436 --> 00:14:12,636 Speaker 1: was strictly legal. MasterCard took a similar approach. This is 186 00:14:12,796 --> 00:14:17,396 Speaker 1: Stanley Skogland. Again, those decisions we took, they were never 187 00:14:17,436 --> 00:14:21,196 Speaker 1: taken lightly, because you know, Visa cannot be a police 188 00:14:21,476 --> 00:14:23,716 Speaker 1: man of the world trying to say you can buy this, 189 00:14:23,796 --> 00:14:25,676 Speaker 1: but you can't buy that. You know, you can see 190 00:14:25,676 --> 00:14:28,836 Speaker 1: how that could go wrong quite quickly, but especially in 191 00:14:28,876 --> 00:14:33,676 Speaker 1: these instances where it was violence, where it was borderline 192 00:14:33,956 --> 00:14:38,916 Speaker 1: underage kind of simulated rape. So there were areas where 193 00:14:39,676 --> 00:14:45,396 Speaker 1: the legality of it wasn't necessarily what made Visa take action. 194 00:14:45,956 --> 00:14:51,236 Speaker 1: This is all encapsulated and Visa Rule one point three 195 00:14:51,276 --> 00:14:55,396 Speaker 1: point three point four a ban on selling images that 196 00:14:55,476 --> 00:14:59,356 Speaker 1: are illegal in most parts of the world, like beastiality 197 00:14:59,716 --> 00:15:04,436 Speaker 1: or non consensual mutilation, but also on top of that, 198 00:15:05,036 --> 00:15:10,796 Speaker 1: a much broader catch all clause brand protect literally a 199 00:15:10,956 --> 00:15:15,556 Speaker 1: ban on anything that might bring Visa into disrepute, and 200 00:15:15,756 --> 00:15:20,476 Speaker 1: out of these decisions emerged a system for keeping pawn 201 00:15:20,596 --> 00:15:25,836 Speaker 1: in check, the apparatus of control we see today in 202 00:15:25,876 --> 00:15:30,556 Speaker 1: the pawn world. This was our takeaway, but we wanted 203 00:15:30,596 --> 00:15:33,316 Speaker 1: to put it to people who had seen the system 204 00:15:33,316 --> 00:15:37,276 Speaker 1: from the inside, so we asked Kevin straight up, the 205 00:15:37,436 --> 00:15:43,356 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard ruled the pawn industry, probably, yes, And 206 00:15:43,436 --> 00:15:45,836 Speaker 1: the reason for that is that there are there are 207 00:15:45,876 --> 00:15:51,156 Speaker 1: some significant names in the industry, and they are incredibly influential, 208 00:15:52,236 --> 00:15:53,836 Speaker 1: but at the end of the day, that they are 209 00:15:54,036 --> 00:15:59,276 Speaker 1: influential over their own content. Visa MasterCard cut across all 210 00:15:59,316 --> 00:16:05,396 Speaker 1: of these, and yes, perversely, Visa MasterCard invertently has become 211 00:16:06,596 --> 00:16:10,956 Speaker 1: the semi regulator controller of this industry. Visa and MasterCard 212 00:16:11,556 --> 00:16:17,516 Speaker 1: use their direct power with restraint, but they ultimately oversee 213 00:16:17,596 --> 00:16:21,796 Speaker 1: the card networks, the networks that create that messy thicket 214 00:16:21,836 --> 00:16:25,676 Speaker 1: of rules and best practice, codes that left Alie Knox 215 00:16:26,116 --> 00:16:29,276 Speaker 1: unable to sell videos of her smoking weed Will Naked, 216 00:16:30,636 --> 00:16:34,596 Speaker 1: and the ones that stopped Stoya, the performer and author 217 00:16:34,756 --> 00:16:37,836 Speaker 1: we've heard from a few times in this series, from 218 00:16:37,836 --> 00:16:41,836 Speaker 1: working when she is on her period, or even telling 219 00:16:41,876 --> 00:16:46,596 Speaker 1: her fans that she is whoever is the arbiter of 220 00:16:46,916 --> 00:16:52,276 Speaker 1: what can be done with sexual media and sexual performance? 221 00:16:52,356 --> 00:16:54,796 Speaker 1: Like I have no idea who they are? Did they 222 00:16:54,836 --> 00:16:58,236 Speaker 1: take a philosophy class? Like are they? Do they have 223 00:16:58,276 --> 00:17:03,036 Speaker 1: a degree in women's studies? After the break, we'll see 224 00:17:03,036 --> 00:17:06,676 Speaker 1: whether there are any philosophers at the heart of Visa's 225 00:17:06,716 --> 00:17:19,876 Speaker 1: pawn operation Act two? Playing God? This series has been 226 00:17:19,916 --> 00:17:27,356 Speaker 1: about power. We've met a cast of secretive pornographers, ruthless bankers, 227 00:17:27,396 --> 00:17:31,476 Speaker 1: supercharged tech bros. And we've always been led by the 228 00:17:31,596 --> 00:17:38,676 Speaker 1: question who rules porn, who ultimately decides on what can 229 00:17:38,836 --> 00:17:43,476 Speaker 1: and cannot be made in this business? And now, in 230 00:17:43,676 --> 00:17:48,276 Speaker 1: slightly absurd fashion, we've ended up at the doorstep of 231 00:17:48,476 --> 00:17:55,396 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard, giant financial services providers. But who at 232 00:17:55,476 --> 00:18:01,236 Speaker 1: Visa was actually deciding on porn policy? Estoya asked, are 233 00:18:01,276 --> 00:18:08,036 Speaker 1: they moral philosophers, women studies PhDs? Kevin Smith had the 234 00:18:08,076 --> 00:18:12,756 Speaker 1: answer because at one point he was one of the 235 00:18:12,876 --> 00:18:18,716 Speaker 1: people making these calls. You've got a number of individuals 236 00:18:18,756 --> 00:18:22,236 Speaker 1: playing god in a room. That's how the process has worked. 237 00:18:22,236 --> 00:18:24,156 Speaker 1: But it's offset by the fact that you've got so 238 00:18:24,236 --> 00:18:27,436 Speaker 1: many different disciplines there to give you a balanced and 239 00:18:27,516 --> 00:18:31,116 Speaker 1: appropriate answer based on each individual case, there's a whole 240 00:18:31,236 --> 00:18:34,636 Speaker 1: raft of individuals. It's almost like the Star Chamber because 241 00:18:34,676 --> 00:18:37,916 Speaker 1: I was involved in similar versions in Visa in Europe. 242 00:18:38,316 --> 00:18:42,556 Speaker 1: The Star Chamber back in the Middle Ages was created 243 00:18:42,556 --> 00:18:47,076 Speaker 1: to supplement a normal court system. In England, it sometimes 244 00:18:47,196 --> 00:18:52,276 Speaker 1: handled cases that were moral issues rather than clear breaches 245 00:18:52,516 --> 00:18:58,156 Speaker 1: of the law, which might sound a little familiar. At 246 00:18:58,156 --> 00:19:03,516 Speaker 1: its best, the Star Chamber was flexible and judicious, drawing 247 00:19:03,596 --> 00:19:07,796 Speaker 1: in a wide range of opinion, but under certain kings 248 00:19:07,916 --> 00:19:12,396 Speaker 1: it became a by word for arbitrary power. It was secretive, 249 00:19:12,796 --> 00:19:19,236 Speaker 1: It lacked you process so difficult to imagine, you know, 250 00:19:19,676 --> 00:19:23,356 Speaker 1: senior executives at VISA sitting down at a table and 251 00:19:23,476 --> 00:19:29,916 Speaker 1: being like peeing and other people, you know, sexy or not. Yeah, 252 00:19:29,956 --> 00:19:33,596 Speaker 1: it's a tough job. If you're sitting there looking at 253 00:19:34,236 --> 00:19:38,356 Speaker 1: a review of potential non compliance activities with the rules, 254 00:19:38,756 --> 00:19:40,556 Speaker 1: You're going to look at the content, You're going to 255 00:19:40,596 --> 00:19:46,796 Speaker 1: look at ridiculously sounding website names or descriptors. It comes 256 00:19:46,796 --> 00:19:49,916 Speaker 1: with the territory. Maybe to you it makes perfect sense, 257 00:19:49,956 --> 00:19:53,356 Speaker 1: but I think to most people, kind of most civilians, 258 00:19:53,916 --> 00:19:56,916 Speaker 1: it would be quite extraordinary that these types of conversations 259 00:19:56,956 --> 00:20:00,756 Speaker 1: take place at Visa. Yeah, they probably don't realize that 260 00:20:00,796 --> 00:20:03,636 Speaker 1: these conversations are happening every day, not just on adult 261 00:20:03,716 --> 00:20:06,436 Speaker 1: but on every single merchant environment you can think of. 262 00:20:07,956 --> 00:20:12,916 Speaker 1: For Kevin, making decisions that could affect thousands of people 263 00:20:12,996 --> 00:20:17,356 Speaker 1: in the porn industry was just part of the job routine. 264 00:20:18,476 --> 00:20:21,876 Speaker 1: The same goes for Stanley. He was more on the 265 00:20:22,116 --> 00:20:27,036 Speaker 1: enforcement side, but helped take decisions about businesses that broke 266 00:20:27,156 --> 00:20:33,036 Speaker 1: VISA rules. He's not a philosopher, sorry Stoya, But Stanley 267 00:20:33,476 --> 00:20:38,756 Speaker 1: is a trained sociologist, and as a student he happened 268 00:20:38,756 --> 00:20:42,796 Speaker 1: to take classes in gender studies and the history of ideas, 269 00:20:43,476 --> 00:20:48,836 Speaker 1: so Stoya wasn't that far off. Stanley and Kevin, of course, 270 00:20:48,876 --> 00:20:54,436 Speaker 1: wouldn't have seen themselves as pawn regulators. They were payments professionals, 271 00:20:54,956 --> 00:20:59,316 Speaker 1: managers of risk, and facilitators of commerce. When they were 272 00:20:59,356 --> 00:21:03,836 Speaker 1: at Visa, they dealt with pyramid schemes and strange frauds, 273 00:21:04,236 --> 00:21:08,596 Speaker 1: with gambling, and drugs, with things that pretended to be drugs, 274 00:21:09,196 --> 00:21:14,276 Speaker 1: all the crazy things you can buy online. In these cases, 275 00:21:14,796 --> 00:21:19,076 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard were trying to apply a complex patchwork 276 00:21:19,156 --> 00:21:23,796 Speaker 1: of local laws within a global payments network. But a 277 00:21:23,956 --> 00:21:29,316 Speaker 1: Stayer explained pawn seems to be different. Payment networks do 278 00:21:29,636 --> 00:21:33,796 Speaker 1: restrict things that are legal, like menstrual blood or cats. 279 00:21:35,036 --> 00:21:40,876 Speaker 1: Is that actually Visa and MasterCard? Here's Stanley again, ninety 280 00:21:40,996 --> 00:21:44,836 Speaker 1: ninety nine percent. I can tell you that that probably 281 00:21:44,876 --> 00:21:50,276 Speaker 1: isn't the case. Visasa Mastercard's rules would not be as detailed, 282 00:21:50,756 --> 00:21:56,516 Speaker 1: they would not address these issues, but that Visa would say, yes, 283 00:21:56,716 --> 00:22:00,116 Speaker 1: you can you shoot at home, but you can't insert 284 00:22:00,116 --> 00:22:03,036 Speaker 1: an object into your body, or you can't have animals 285 00:22:03,116 --> 00:22:07,036 Speaker 1: in the frame, or you can't perform sex act while 286 00:22:07,076 --> 00:22:13,796 Speaker 1: you're menstruating. No. Now, Stanley is right, Visa does not 287 00:22:13,996 --> 00:22:19,356 Speaker 1: band videos with menstrual blood, not explicitly in its rules. 288 00:22:20,396 --> 00:22:26,716 Speaker 1: But Stoya is also right. Menstrual blood is not allowed 289 00:22:26,796 --> 00:22:30,396 Speaker 1: on most of the major porn platforms that take credit cards. 290 00:22:31,596 --> 00:22:37,516 Speaker 1: Why the discrepancy? The answer is quite revealing. When Kevin 291 00:22:37,516 --> 00:22:42,236 Speaker 1: and Stanley think about rules, they mean the Visa and 292 00:22:42,356 --> 00:22:48,316 Speaker 1: master Card core operating rules, the commandments. They talk of 293 00:22:48,356 --> 00:22:53,556 Speaker 1: them like the law. And in these regulations, Visa doesn't 294 00:22:53,556 --> 00:23:00,396 Speaker 1: explicitly band blood or smoking weed in videos. Visa enjoys 295 00:23:00,476 --> 00:23:04,076 Speaker 1: an arm's length position from it all. But at the 296 00:23:04,196 --> 00:23:09,076 Speaker 1: same time, VISA does encourage a whole chain of people 297 00:23:09,636 --> 00:23:14,756 Speaker 1: in the pawn payment system to make judgments on its behalf. 298 00:23:14,796 --> 00:23:18,596 Speaker 1: They are told to protect the brand. They have to 299 00:23:18,636 --> 00:23:22,756 Speaker 1: interpret the rules, monitor science, and promote what Visa would 300 00:23:22,796 --> 00:23:26,796 Speaker 1: call best practices, and in part to keep Visa and 301 00:23:26,916 --> 00:23:32,476 Speaker 1: MasterCard happy, those payment companies and platforms ban menstrual, blood 302 00:23:32,716 --> 00:23:37,796 Speaker 1: and weed smoking in pawn the example the performer Ali raised, 303 00:23:37,996 --> 00:23:40,516 Speaker 1: they're making all these arbitrary rules to push us off 304 00:23:40,556 --> 00:23:44,156 Speaker 1: the Internet, to push us further and deeper underground. We're 305 00:23:44,196 --> 00:23:51,436 Speaker 1: constantly under threat of censorship, of regulation. Kevin and Stanley 306 00:23:51,596 --> 00:23:54,796 Speaker 1: see that as different from a Visa rule, but for 307 00:23:54,916 --> 00:23:59,156 Speaker 1: performers like Stayer and Ali, there is no difference in 308 00:23:59,236 --> 00:24:03,676 Speaker 1: practice or in impact. It's very hard for us to 309 00:24:03,996 --> 00:24:07,796 Speaker 1: live stable lifestyles. We didn't have to shoot from porn 310 00:24:07,796 --> 00:24:11,156 Speaker 1: companies anymore, we didn't have to shitty agents, and then 311 00:24:11,236 --> 00:24:16,236 Speaker 1: regulations came through and now are back to being fucked. 312 00:24:19,796 --> 00:24:23,796 Speaker 1: Visa and master Card clearly don't make all these decisions, 313 00:24:24,636 --> 00:24:27,996 Speaker 1: but they do shape the network and try to shape 314 00:24:27,996 --> 00:24:32,436 Speaker 1: an approach. We've talked lots of payment people for the series, 315 00:24:33,236 --> 00:24:37,356 Speaker 1: but Kevin and Stanley, more than anyone else, helped us 316 00:24:37,436 --> 00:24:42,516 Speaker 1: understand the mindset within the credit card Woppoli, the psyche 317 00:24:42,796 --> 00:24:46,556 Speaker 1: of a reluctant ruler. Have they eat them right people 318 00:24:46,836 --> 00:24:51,436 Speaker 1: to be the kind of ultimate quasi regulators of Paul 319 00:24:54,036 --> 00:24:56,876 Speaker 1: In the absence of anyone else, I would say yes, 320 00:24:56,996 --> 00:24:59,636 Speaker 1: And that could be quite a ballsy answer. But at 321 00:24:59,636 --> 00:25:02,596 Speaker 1: the end of the day, I think Visa master Card, 322 00:25:02,716 --> 00:25:06,716 Speaker 1: through their relationships, they have a good local understanding of 323 00:25:06,716 --> 00:25:10,676 Speaker 1: what's going on in this industry. Actually, it's challenges and 324 00:25:10,756 --> 00:25:14,796 Speaker 1: it's constant evolution. I mean, there is a shared responsibility 325 00:25:14,876 --> 00:25:18,676 Speaker 1: that says nobody wants to kill the industry, but it 326 00:25:18,716 --> 00:25:21,036 Speaker 1: needs to make sure that as it moves forward, it's 327 00:25:21,076 --> 00:25:27,476 Speaker 1: doing so in a legally defensible way. What Kevin described 328 00:25:27,716 --> 00:25:32,156 Speaker 1: is a murky self regulating system that to some extent 329 00:25:33,036 --> 00:25:36,316 Speaker 1: keeps pawn in check. When he was at Visa, I 330 00:25:36,316 --> 00:25:39,396 Speaker 1: can imagine he was more or less trying to do 331 00:25:39,436 --> 00:25:42,516 Speaker 1: the right thing, and he worked in a system that 332 00:25:42,796 --> 00:25:47,676 Speaker 1: by its very nature involves different interests that often balance 333 00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:52,236 Speaker 1: one another. Picture who is sitting around the table. There 334 00:25:52,276 --> 00:25:56,196 Speaker 1: will be Visa executives whose job it is to drum 335 00:25:56,276 --> 00:26:00,916 Speaker 1: up more business and encourage more transactions. Then there will 336 00:26:00,956 --> 00:26:05,876 Speaker 1: be people with a different outlook, teams managing risk, worrying 337 00:26:05,916 --> 00:26:10,396 Speaker 1: about the brand or the legal consequences of using Visa's power. 338 00:26:11,436 --> 00:26:15,516 Speaker 1: Visa's aim, and frankly the aim of the adult industry too, 339 00:26:16,196 --> 00:26:18,996 Speaker 1: is to try to find a balance where money is 340 00:26:19,036 --> 00:26:23,476 Speaker 1: flowing but the risks in the system are managed. There 341 00:26:23,556 --> 00:26:26,476 Speaker 1: is a recognition that everyone needs everyone else. The whole 342 00:26:26,476 --> 00:26:29,156 Speaker 1: thing is symbiotic. If one of the parties falls out, 343 00:26:29,276 --> 00:26:33,036 Speaker 1: then the whole damn thing falls over. Visa and master Card, 344 00:26:33,516 --> 00:26:37,076 Speaker 1: almost by accidents, have filled a power vacuum and a 345 00:26:37,196 --> 00:26:41,636 Speaker 1: regulation of porn around the world. It's such a peculiar 346 00:26:41,676 --> 00:26:47,036 Speaker 1: position to be in, and to Stanley, it carries obvious risks. 347 00:26:47,876 --> 00:26:51,876 Speaker 1: It's difficult to judge went to intervene and went to 348 00:26:51,916 --> 00:26:55,316 Speaker 1: hold back. I mean, do you think that Visa and 349 00:26:55,516 --> 00:27:01,956 Speaker 1: master Card. Do you think they realize how how much 350 00:27:01,996 --> 00:27:05,276 Speaker 1: power they have, how people in the adult industry see 351 00:27:05,316 --> 00:27:11,956 Speaker 1: them as their defector regulator. Yes, I think you may 352 00:27:12,036 --> 00:27:16,036 Speaker 1: be onto something that if you have worked in that 353 00:27:16,636 --> 00:27:22,076 Speaker 1: position a long time and you don't engage with the industry. Yes, 354 00:27:22,196 --> 00:27:25,636 Speaker 1: I think there's absolutely a risk that you don't understand 355 00:27:26,316 --> 00:27:30,476 Speaker 1: either the de facto power you have or how it 356 00:27:30,596 --> 00:27:35,236 Speaker 1: is perceived, and perhaps that is something would benefit but 357 00:27:35,436 --> 00:27:39,396 Speaker 1: Visa master Card to be more kind of self critical 358 00:27:39,476 --> 00:27:43,476 Speaker 1: in their reflection of how these programs and how this 359 00:27:43,636 --> 00:27:50,196 Speaker 1: policies are implemented. Is there a better approach for Visa 360 00:27:50,236 --> 00:27:54,276 Speaker 1: and master Card. We'll try to do some critical reflection 361 00:27:54,316 --> 00:27:59,476 Speaker 1: ourselves with a little help from the performers Stayer. That's 362 00:27:59,476 --> 00:28:09,076 Speaker 1: coming straight after the break Act three ruled by Store. 363 00:28:12,676 --> 00:28:15,276 Speaker 1: We are near the end of our journey through the 364 00:28:15,356 --> 00:28:19,236 Speaker 1: porn industry, and we're going back to the person who 365 00:28:19,316 --> 00:28:23,676 Speaker 1: set us off at the beginning, the performer and artist Stayer. 366 00:28:24,916 --> 00:28:30,356 Speaker 1: Her advice was invaluable and at least for us, totally unforgettable. 367 00:28:30,956 --> 00:28:36,676 Speaker 1: So if you try to make a podcast that's about 368 00:28:36,716 --> 00:28:40,436 Speaker 1: all of porn, it's going to be scattered and messy 369 00:28:40,596 --> 00:28:43,956 Speaker 1: and not make sense. You are the financial times, I 370 00:28:44,116 --> 00:28:47,436 Speaker 1: suggest you stay in your lane. You focus on the 371 00:28:47,476 --> 00:28:53,956 Speaker 1: business aspect, you focus on the finances. Stay in your lane. 372 00:28:54,596 --> 00:28:58,396 Speaker 1: At that point, we had secretive porn barrens in our sides, 373 00:28:59,356 --> 00:29:03,836 Speaker 1: big empires pumping out porn to the world. Men who 374 00:29:03,996 --> 00:29:08,836 Speaker 1: lived in the shadows, fake names, no real public presence, 375 00:29:09,516 --> 00:29:14,356 Speaker 1: people like Bernt Bergmeyer, Pornhub or Stefan Paco, the owner 376 00:29:14,396 --> 00:29:18,836 Speaker 1: of X Videos. We thought they were the most powerful 377 00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:24,876 Speaker 1: people in porn. But what we realized is that they 378 00:29:24,956 --> 00:29:29,116 Speaker 1: aren't the masters of their own fate. What we discovered 379 00:29:29,436 --> 00:29:32,036 Speaker 1: is that the real rule of s of porn were 380 00:29:32,156 --> 00:29:37,156 Speaker 1: much closer to home the credit card networks, and they 381 00:29:37,236 --> 00:29:42,076 Speaker 1: were in plain sight. The porn barons have immense power 382 00:29:42,156 --> 00:29:48,676 Speaker 1: and influence, sure, but always within boundaries defined by payment companies. 383 00:29:49,596 --> 00:29:54,636 Speaker 1: Visa and MasterCard have the last word. These were in 384 00:29:54,716 --> 00:30:00,636 Speaker 1: MasterCard are truly vast corporations. Visa is the world's biggest 385 00:30:00,756 --> 00:30:06,476 Speaker 1: financial company, the single biggest, and MasterCard is something like 386 00:30:06,556 --> 00:30:11,076 Speaker 1: the third and let's be frank, fees are and MasterCard 387 00:30:11,276 --> 00:30:18,316 Speaker 1: aren't wildly exciting companies, even for financial journalists. We all 388 00:30:18,436 --> 00:30:21,516 Speaker 1: use them every day, but give them as much attention 389 00:30:21,756 --> 00:30:25,516 Speaker 1: as the plumbing in our house. But by examining the 390 00:30:25,596 --> 00:30:30,916 Speaker 1: pawn industry, we saw the incredible power these payment networks 391 00:30:30,996 --> 00:30:36,036 Speaker 1: wheeled over the Internet. Instead of the government defining what 392 00:30:36,236 --> 00:30:41,796 Speaker 1: is and is not considered sexually acceptable, it's a corporation. 393 00:30:43,076 --> 00:30:49,116 Speaker 1: A credit card company is defining what is and is 394 00:30:49,196 --> 00:30:53,476 Speaker 1: not sexually okay. If you think about what the core 395 00:30:54,276 --> 00:30:58,796 Speaker 1: goal is on their part. It's not necessarily you know, 396 00:30:58,996 --> 00:31:01,676 Speaker 1: the good of the community or society, whatever. It's actually 397 00:31:01,916 --> 00:31:04,676 Speaker 1: the protection of their brand and no fault of this. 398 00:31:04,796 --> 00:31:07,076 Speaker 1: I mean that that's what a company's there to do, 399 00:31:07,196 --> 00:31:09,996 Speaker 1: but that's not necessarily the thing that we want to 400 00:31:10,156 --> 00:31:15,556 Speaker 1: use as our measure of whether pornography is okay or 401 00:31:15,596 --> 00:31:18,836 Speaker 1: what kind of pornography is okay. Yeah, and it feels 402 00:31:18,836 --> 00:31:21,956 Speaker 1: like a really bad idea to be saying, like, actually, 403 00:31:22,036 --> 00:31:24,356 Speaker 1: I think the government should pay more attention to born, 404 00:31:25,636 --> 00:31:30,596 Speaker 1: but I don't think that MasterCard and Visa should be 405 00:31:31,156 --> 00:31:36,316 Speaker 1: the decision makers on this. We have spoken to people 406 00:31:36,436 --> 00:31:40,716 Speaker 1: at these companies. We can tell you with absolute confidence 407 00:31:41,316 --> 00:31:45,676 Speaker 1: that Visa and MasterCard don't want to be the decision 408 00:31:45,716 --> 00:31:50,716 Speaker 1: makers either. They oversee a system that sets standards for 409 00:31:50,836 --> 00:31:55,876 Speaker 1: world porn, but they just hate doing it. They are 410 00:31:55,956 --> 00:32:00,836 Speaker 1: trapped in this thankless job deciding and enforcing moral codes 411 00:32:00,956 --> 00:32:07,036 Speaker 1: on sex. It goes against all their instincts. But what's 412 00:32:07,076 --> 00:32:10,836 Speaker 1: the alternative? A magic in the reaction if they did 413 00:32:11,076 --> 00:32:16,596 Speaker 1: explicitly allow payments for videos that depicted rape. So if 414 00:32:16,596 --> 00:32:21,916 Speaker 1: the question is who should rule pawn, we probably don't 415 00:32:21,916 --> 00:32:26,836 Speaker 1: have much choice. Cryptocurrencies are still too clunky and expensive 416 00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:30,756 Speaker 1: to usurp the role of credit cards in pawn, and 417 00:32:30,796 --> 00:32:34,916 Speaker 1: if crypto did take over, there might be no rules 418 00:32:34,996 --> 00:32:40,636 Speaker 1: left at all. What about governments. They certainly have immense 419 00:32:40,756 --> 00:32:45,756 Speaker 1: power over pawn companies within their borders, but we've talked 420 00:32:45,756 --> 00:32:49,276 Speaker 1: to regulators who are trying to tighten up rules around pawn. 421 00:32:50,196 --> 00:32:53,796 Speaker 1: They struggle to get the big pawn platforms based in 422 00:32:53,996 --> 00:32:59,916 Speaker 1: far off jurisdictions to even respond to their messages. They 423 00:32:59,996 --> 00:33:03,876 Speaker 1: don't have the leverage of Visa and master Card or 424 00:33:04,116 --> 00:33:12,076 Speaker 1: the global reach, so in practice Visa and MasterCard remain indispensable. 425 00:33:12,996 --> 00:33:17,716 Speaker 1: There is nobody else. How should these payment networks use 426 00:33:17,836 --> 00:33:23,356 Speaker 1: their power. There are some areas where Stoya, given the choice, 427 00:33:24,116 --> 00:33:27,996 Speaker 1: might actually have taken a tougher approach, like what's so 428 00:33:28,156 --> 00:33:31,596 Speaker 1: called faux sest. If you've been on a porn site 429 00:33:31,596 --> 00:33:35,876 Speaker 1: in recent years, you'll have noticed that there's a craze 430 00:33:36,116 --> 00:33:41,836 Speaker 1: for sexual fantasies about step relatives. Stoya wants to see 431 00:33:41,996 --> 00:33:46,836 Speaker 1: less of it around, But then she also thinks decisions 432 00:33:46,916 --> 00:33:50,556 Speaker 1: like this deserve an open debate, the kind of thing 433 00:33:50,596 --> 00:33:54,036 Speaker 1: a government would have when making law. Call your senator 434 00:33:54,236 --> 00:33:58,156 Speaker 1: and be like, hey, I actually want to defend step 435 00:33:58,196 --> 00:34:01,476 Speaker 1: in sest porn because it's a fantasy, and so we're 436 00:34:01,476 --> 00:34:04,756 Speaker 1: talking about thought crimes, and you know, I think I 437 00:34:04,836 --> 00:34:08,316 Speaker 1: think Stoya is wrong. I think she's being reactionary and 438 00:34:08,476 --> 00:34:13,956 Speaker 1: like over stepping. But with payment companies in control, it's 439 00:34:13,956 --> 00:34:17,316 Speaker 1: impossible to have that kind of meaningful debate. You know. 440 00:34:17,716 --> 00:34:21,316 Speaker 1: It's not like I can go down to the master 441 00:34:21,396 --> 00:34:25,636 Speaker 1: Card office and be like, hello, I would like to 442 00:34:25,676 --> 00:34:29,156 Speaker 1: have a civil dialogue about this, Like that's not going 443 00:34:29,196 --> 00:34:32,636 Speaker 1: to happen. This might be one of the things that 444 00:34:32,716 --> 00:34:37,916 Speaker 1: can be improved. The arbitrary nature of that power. Visa 445 00:34:37,956 --> 00:34:43,196 Speaker 1: and MasterCard maybe reluctant morality police, but that's no excuse 446 00:34:43,276 --> 00:34:48,836 Speaker 1: for operating at times almost by stealth and issuing vague 447 00:34:49,036 --> 00:34:53,116 Speaker 1: catch all rules that are turned by payment networks into 448 00:34:53,156 --> 00:35:03,436 Speaker 1: bizarrely precise, often inconsistent restrictions. We asked master Card for 449 00:35:03,476 --> 00:35:08,316 Speaker 1: a recorded interview. They were helpful with background information, but 450 00:35:08,716 --> 00:35:12,716 Speaker 1: in the end end they declined if we did have 451 00:35:12,876 --> 00:35:19,396 Speaker 1: that conversation, we'd probably start with some optimism. We've tracked 452 00:35:19,436 --> 00:35:24,236 Speaker 1: a crazy era for the adult industry. Pawn has gone 453 00:35:24,356 --> 00:35:29,836 Speaker 1: from being scarce and expensive to being everywhere and mostly 454 00:35:29,916 --> 00:35:35,596 Speaker 1: free all within a generation, and in business terms, you 455 00:35:35,636 --> 00:35:41,316 Speaker 1: can finally see things kind of coming back together. The 456 00:35:41,396 --> 00:35:46,796 Speaker 1: Internet is giving performers more power and independence and most 457 00:35:46,836 --> 00:35:52,516 Speaker 1: importantly money. If that can improve their working conditions, that 458 00:35:52,676 --> 00:35:56,956 Speaker 1: is surely welcome. We've seen how Visa and MasterCard oversee 459 00:35:56,996 --> 00:36:01,796 Speaker 1: a regulatory system for pawn. But who are these rules for. 460 00:36:02,796 --> 00:36:07,396 Speaker 1: The truth is they're not designed to protect the performers. 461 00:36:07,556 --> 00:36:11,116 Speaker 1: They're not designed to protect the viewer. The rules are 462 00:36:11,156 --> 00:36:16,276 Speaker 1: there to protect the Visa and MasterCard brands, but it 463 00:36:16,476 --> 00:36:20,516 Speaker 1: is the only system we have. How could it work better? 464 00:36:21,476 --> 00:36:25,876 Speaker 1: We have one suggestion. This series has been about how 465 00:36:26,036 --> 00:36:30,556 Speaker 1: big porn barons are reliant on Visa and MasterCard, and 466 00:36:30,796 --> 00:36:35,076 Speaker 1: how Visa and MasterCard are reluctant rulers of the porn barons. 467 00:36:36,036 --> 00:36:39,436 Speaker 1: Those two things have created a really patchy system of 468 00:36:39,556 --> 00:36:44,556 Speaker 1: rules and a weird situation where tube sides serving free 469 00:36:44,636 --> 00:36:50,316 Speaker 1: porn have fewer restrictions than sites taking credit cards, even 470 00:36:50,396 --> 00:36:54,316 Speaker 1: though tube sides are easier for underage people to access. 471 00:36:55,076 --> 00:36:58,436 Speaker 1: If Visa and MasterCards said to an owner, you own 472 00:36:58,516 --> 00:37:02,156 Speaker 1: tube sides, you own pay sites, We're going to treat 473 00:37:02,236 --> 00:37:06,356 Speaker 1: everything you own as one. That would be one way 474 00:37:06,476 --> 00:37:10,116 Speaker 1: to be more consistent and bring entire to standards on 475 00:37:10,196 --> 00:37:14,956 Speaker 1: moderation to help lower the risk of unlawful videos appearing 476 00:37:14,996 --> 00:37:20,356 Speaker 1: on tube sites. Don't underestimate the power of Visa and MasterCard. 477 00:37:20,796 --> 00:37:26,116 Speaker 1: When credit card companies call, even secretive pornographers would feel 478 00:37:26,156 --> 00:37:31,316 Speaker 1: compelled to pick up the phone because right now they 479 00:37:31,356 --> 00:37:34,916 Speaker 1: don't want to talk. And that brings me back to 480 00:37:36,236 --> 00:37:39,876 Speaker 1: the one moment where I thought I heard the voice 481 00:37:40,276 --> 00:37:43,156 Speaker 1: of the man who was the start of this whole journey, 482 00:37:43,996 --> 00:37:49,116 Speaker 1: Burned berg Meyer or BB, the ex Gorman Sax banker 483 00:37:49,516 --> 00:37:53,356 Speaker 1: who I revealed was the secret owner of mine Geek. 484 00:37:54,716 --> 00:37:58,356 Speaker 1: I was so excited to find his Hong Kong number. 485 00:37:59,676 --> 00:38:03,996 Speaker 1: I called. A man picked up. I like to think 486 00:38:03,996 --> 00:38:08,436 Speaker 1: it was BB. Hello, this is Patrician Nelson from the 487 00:38:08,476 --> 00:38:15,116 Speaker 1: Financial Time this Bergmire As I introduced myself, and that 488 00:38:15,236 --> 00:38:21,716 Speaker 1: split second, maybe he thought, what do I say? Do 489 00:38:21,876 --> 00:38:26,916 Speaker 1: I have anything to hide from this reporter? A millennium 490 00:38:26,916 --> 00:38:29,996 Speaker 1: of shame about sex and porn might have flashed across 491 00:38:29,996 --> 00:38:34,956 Speaker 1: his mind. But then maybe he reconsidered things have changed. 492 00:38:35,796 --> 00:38:40,996 Speaker 1: Porn is everywhere, everyone watches it. It's a business like 493 00:38:41,116 --> 00:38:45,316 Speaker 1: any other. Is it time to explain what I do? 494 00:38:46,756 --> 00:39:03,516 Speaker 1: He paused and then he hung up. Hot Money is 495 00:39:03,516 --> 00:39:06,716 Speaker 1: a production of The Financial Times and Pushkin Industries. It 496 00:39:06,756 --> 00:39:09,716 Speaker 1: was written and reported by Me, Patrician Neilson and me 497 00:39:10,076 --> 00:39:14,716 Speaker 1: Alex Barker. Peter Sale is our lead producer and sound designer. 498 00:39:15,236 --> 00:39:20,116 Speaker 1: Edith Russelo is our associate producer. Our editor is Karen Shakurgie. 499 00:39:20,276 --> 00:39:25,716 Speaker 1: Amanda ka Wong is our engineer. Music compositioned by Pascal Wise, 500 00:39:26,076 --> 00:39:31,356 Speaker 1: fact checking by Andrea Lopez Kusado. Our executive producers are 501 00:39:31,436 --> 00:39:37,716 Speaker 1: Cheryl Brumley and Jacob Goldstein. A Pushkin Industry's Special thanks 502 00:39:37,756 --> 00:39:42,516 Speaker 1: to Mia LaBelle, letal My Lad, Justine Lang, Julia Barton, 503 00:39:42,916 --> 00:39:48,676 Speaker 1: Heather Faine, John Schnaz, Maggie Taylor, Morgan Ratner, Eric Sandler, 504 00:39:49,116 --> 00:39:55,436 Speaker 1: Jake Flanagan, Jordan McMillan, Mary Beth Smith, Isabella Nervis, Sean Carney, 505 00:39:55,876 --> 00:40:01,756 Speaker 1: Carlie Migliori, Maya Kanig, Daniela Lakhan, Nicole Morano and Jacob 506 00:40:01,756 --> 00:40:06,756 Speaker 1: Weissberg at The Financial Times Special thanks to Renee Kaplan 507 00:40:06,956 --> 00:40:13,076 Speaker 1: and Ruler Khalaf, Alista Key, Kendra, James, Nigel Hansson, Molly Eisner, 508 00:40:13,636 --> 00:40:19,796 Speaker 1: Ronda Taylor, Breen Turner, Nicholas Stansfield Peter Spiegel, Philippa Goodrich, 509 00:40:20,596 --> 00:40:27,676 Speaker 1: Kevin Wilson, Carolina Vargas, Manuela Saragosa tofer foreheadge Laura Clark, 510 00:40:28,156 --> 00:40:36,196 Speaker 1: Matt Garrahan, Andrew Georgiades, Petros Gion passes, Richard Martin, Barney Jobson, 511 00:40:36,836 --> 00:40:40,756 Speaker 1: Daniel Dombie, Cynthia Omoreho and voice Mihawark