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Speaker 1: Deep in the back of your mind. You've always had

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Speaker 1: the feeling that there's something strange about reality. There is

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Speaker 1: super anoid death, m nanopartic, mechanical messiahist, punch evolution. On

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Speaker 1: our award winning science podcast Stuff Abow Your Mind, we

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Speaker 1: examine neurological quandaries, cosmic mysteries, evolutionary marvels, and our trans

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Speaker 1: human future. New episodes come out Tuesdays and Thursdays on iTunes,

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Speaker 1: Google Play, Spotify, and anywhere you get your podcast. Welcome

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Speaker 1: to Stuff Mom Never Told You from how Stuff Works

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Speaker 1: dot com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen

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Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline, and this is a special episode of

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Speaker 1: stuff Mom Never Told You because we get to talk

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Speaker 1: to the founder of a magazine and fabulous website that

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Speaker 1: we cite all of the time on Stuff Mom Never

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Speaker 1: Told You all the time, all the time, and that

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Speaker 1: is Andy Zeisler, who is the co founder of Bitch Media,

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Speaker 1: which is like an incredible media empire now started as

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Speaker 1: a zine in the nineties, as all great things do,

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Speaker 1: minus this podcast, which definitely did not start as a zne.

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Speaker 1: But maybe we should start a zne. Maybe we should.

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Speaker 1: We can do the reverse work our way back to

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Speaker 1: a zine. Yeah, we were thrilled to get to talk

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Speaker 1: to Zeisler live on stage at an event called Ladyfest

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Speaker 1: here in Atlanta, where Caroline and I reside um, and

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Speaker 1: we talked to Zeisler about her new book We were

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Speaker 1: Feminists once, from riot Girl to cover Girl, the buying

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Speaker 1: and selling of a political movement. Yeah, she was fabulous

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Speaker 1: to talk to. She is the most brilliant and yet

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Speaker 1: approachable awesome feminist I mean, aside from you, Kristen, Oh wow,

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Speaker 1: thank you. Yeah. But but we were so lucky to

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Speaker 1: get to sit on a stage with her and be

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Speaker 1: able to ask her all these questions. Kristin and I

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Speaker 1: had each just finished her book, and so what a

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Speaker 1: luxury and a privilege to finish a great book like

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Speaker 1: the one she's written and then sit down with the

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Speaker 1: author and ask her all sorts of questions. I mean,

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Speaker 1: the book centers on this idea of marketplace feminism and

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Speaker 1: how the feminist movement has changed and evolved over the decades,

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Speaker 1: and how we find ourselves now in this period where

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Speaker 1: people think that either putting on a T shirt that

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Speaker 1: says feminist a sort of the end all be all

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Speaker 1: that's you put on the T shirt this feminist and

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Speaker 1: you're done, you claim the label um or that uh,

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Speaker 1: choosing your choices is also the most important, rather than

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Speaker 1: for instance, fighting for paid family leave, fighting for equal pay,

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Speaker 1: things like that. Well, and she also focuses a lot

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Speaker 1: on how feminism has been commodified now and co opted

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Speaker 1: by a lot of companies which are realizing a what

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Speaker 1: a valuable demographic women are, but especially um, how much

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Speaker 1: feminist e taglines and messages reside with female consumer so um.

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Speaker 1: Famous examples of this type of empower tizing, as Zisor

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Speaker 1: calls it, would be Doves Real Bodies campaign. You also

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Speaker 1: have the always hashtag like a Girl campaign, which I

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Speaker 1: loved personally, I mean, like running like a girl. I

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Speaker 1: don't know what that has to do with maxi pads,

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Speaker 1: but it was like, that's great to see. You're right.

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Speaker 1: But what Zeisler does such a great job with is

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Speaker 1: digging through those viral moments to really, you know, kind

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Speaker 1: of question and explore and analyze, like what that really

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Speaker 1: means about modern feminism? Sure, and I mean speaking of

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Speaker 1: empower tizing, she goes deep on the issue of empowerment itself,

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Speaker 1: as well, and says that it's been drained of meaning

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Speaker 1: and really now in the modern sense that we throw

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Speaker 1: that word around in it tends to relate to personal branding.

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Speaker 1: It's becoming vague and a political rather than and you know,

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Speaker 1: empowering groups of people and all of us working together

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Speaker 1: and lifting as we climb. It's more about nowadays when

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Speaker 1: we say the word Kim Kardashian taking a naked selfie, yeah,

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Speaker 1: being used to justify whatever choices that you make, justify

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Speaker 1: them as necessarily feminist. UM. And the book itself is

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Speaker 1: also very accessible, regardless of how familiar you are or

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Speaker 1: aren't with feminist philosophy or UM texts, because Zeisler's bread

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Speaker 1: and butter is pop culture UM. She even the first

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Speaker 1: book that she wrote I was called Feminism and pop Culture,

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Speaker 1: And of course Bitch Magazine is all about analyzing pop

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Speaker 1: culture through a feminist lens. So the examples that she

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Speaker 1: uses UM are very familiar, but she weaves that into

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Speaker 1: a lot of research and a lot of UH books

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Speaker 1: and writing that Honestly, I now want to go through

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Speaker 1: and create a new reading list for myself to get

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Speaker 1: a better feminist education. Absolutely, and I feel the same

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Speaker 1: way and I guess I need to just quit my

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Speaker 1: job and go live in a cave so that I

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Speaker 1: can read all of the books. But well, can we

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Speaker 1: podcast in the cave? But yeah, I just can't do

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Speaker 1: anything else. Okay, So the cave will have Wifie and

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Speaker 1: a whole audio set up. Same you know, we'll bring

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Speaker 1: nol our producer. It's fine, Okay, So you'll be in

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Speaker 1: a sound studio in a cave. It just sounds really,

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Speaker 1: it sounds like I'm describing my apartment, Like my apartment

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Speaker 1: is very caveful. Like anyway, Well, let's talk a little

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Speaker 1: bit about Zeisler's background, because she goes into it a

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Speaker 1: little bit in our chat with her, but we want

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Speaker 1: to give you a few more details about her um

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Speaker 1: and how she came to co found Bitch. Yeah. One

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Speaker 1: thing that I loved finding out about her was how

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Speaker 1: clear she was kind of from the get go about

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Speaker 1: what she wanted to do. So she knew in high

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Speaker 1: school she wanted to work in magazines and even now.

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Speaker 1: In the interview, as you'll hear, she talks about how

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Speaker 1: she's still just adores print media and she loved the

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Speaker 1: fusion of politics and pop culture that she found in

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Speaker 1: so many of the magazines that she was consuming, and

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Speaker 1: she went after the very specific gig that she wanted,

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Speaker 1: and that was an internship when she was seventeen at

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Speaker 1: Sassy Magazine, the famed Sassy mag founded by Jane Pratt,

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Speaker 1: which um was really a foundational magazine. I feel like

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Speaker 1: for a lot of gen X women and millennial women

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Speaker 1: too who have gone back and now like ebayed um

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Speaker 1: and like read old issues online. Um. So she worked

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Speaker 1: there for a few months um when she was, like

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Speaker 1: I said, seventeen, and then she went to college and

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Speaker 1: graduated in from Colorado College and high tailed it to California. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: she's my mother friend Lisa. And it was this pair

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Speaker 1: of women who disgruntled by the political climate in the

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Speaker 1: wake of the Anita Hill Clarence Thomas debacle, the buyout

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Speaker 1: of Sassy magazine, so it was veering away from its

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Speaker 1: original voice and not to mention the fact that people

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Speaker 1: in pop culture who were speaking out about feminism were ignored.

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Speaker 1: Disgruntled by all this, these women co founded Bitch and

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Speaker 1: that was in n They wanted to reclaim the word

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Speaker 1: bitch because it's what women were being called to be

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Speaker 1: dismissed anyway, so we might as well reclaim it. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean, and that's something that we talked about a

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Speaker 1: bit in our podcast from a while back on the

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Speaker 1: word bitch, if you want to go back and listen

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Speaker 1: to that after you listen to this. Um. So, in

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Speaker 1: two thousand one, the first issue of Bitch as a

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Speaker 1: full time organization was published, and because the Bay area

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Speaker 1: got really expensive of in the two thousands, in two

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Speaker 1: thousand seven, Bitch moved it's HQ to Portland's. So shout

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Speaker 1: out to our Portland listeners. I know you're out there,

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Speaker 1: and also Seattle. I count you both together, although I

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Speaker 1: know that you're different, um, but you are joined in

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Speaker 1: my mind. Um And in two thousand nine, Bitch became

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Speaker 1: the nonprofit Bitch Media, and I mean painting with a

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Speaker 1: large broad brush. That basically brings us up to now

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Speaker 1: when she's written this fabulous new book that we enjoyed

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Speaker 1: so much, and we definitely definitely encourage you to pick

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Speaker 1: it up, mainly so then we can all be in

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Speaker 1: a giant book club together and we can talk about it. Well,

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Speaker 1: let's go ahead and head on over to Lady Fest,

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Speaker 1: where we will warn you that the audio is that

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Speaker 1: of speaking live on a stage, so it doesn't sound

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Speaker 1: quite as crisp as it normally does when we're here

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Speaker 1: in our audio cave. Um, but definitely keep on listening

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Speaker 1: because Zeisler has many gems of wisdom to share. And

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Speaker 1: just a quick note before we deliver those gems of

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Speaker 1: wisdom from Andy's Eisler, we want to let you know

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Speaker 1: that towards the end of the episode, there are some

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Speaker 1: questions from the audience at the event. Those questions didn't

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Speaker 1: get picked up by the mike's unsurprisingly, and so you're

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Speaker 1: going to hear Kristen and me interjecting and basically summing

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Speaker 1: up what those questions for so that we can all

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Speaker 1: join in on the conversation. So with that, let's let

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Speaker 1: the chat role. Well, Andy, We're so excited to talk

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Speaker 1: to you tonight. I'm so excited to talk to you

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Speaker 1: and to you thanks for coming. Yeah, and thanks to

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Speaker 1: Lady Fest and Carris and everyone who helped put this

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Speaker 1: event together. Um, we have a lot to talk about,

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Speaker 1: but we are going to save room at the end

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Speaker 1: for questions. Um. So with that, shall we cook things off?

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Speaker 1: Let's do it. Let's do it? Okay, all right, Well,

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Speaker 1: since you are the co founder of Bitch magazine. We

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Speaker 1: must ask you about how that came to be and

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Speaker 1: also how I sort of the bridge between founding Bitch

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Speaker 1: and where pop culture was then and where it is

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Speaker 1: today in relation to feminism. Oh yeah, Um, well this

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Speaker 1: is our twentieth anniversary, and um, I have to say, Um,

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Speaker 1: I'm you know, certainly being asked to talk about that

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Speaker 1: a lot this year, and I feel like I need

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Speaker 1: a better line of response because usually when people ask me,

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Speaker 1: I'm like, well, I'm I'm actually pretty bummed that we're

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Speaker 1: still around. Um because when we started in uh, you know,

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Speaker 1: if you had told us how much things would sort

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Speaker 1: of backslide, you know politically, um, with respect to you know,

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Speaker 1: women's bottle, the autonomy and things like access to contraception,

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Speaker 1: just really basic human rights type of stuff, we would

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Speaker 1: have been like, no, we're we don't want to do

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Speaker 1: this project. It's too depressing already. Um. But you know,

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Speaker 1: but the flip side of that is, I think that

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Speaker 1: pop culture and media are places where that's where we

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Speaker 1: really have seen a lot of evolution, That's where we've

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Speaker 1: really seen a lot of positive stuff, and um, you know,

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Speaker 1: just to be able to to have been a part

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Speaker 1: of that, to have been a part of really locating

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Speaker 1: pop culture and media as a really fertile site of

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Speaker 1: feminist analysis and criticism and change. Um, it's really cool.

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Speaker 1: And uh, you know, as as far as you know

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Speaker 1: how we started and why we started, I mean, we

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Speaker 1: really just wanted to to take pop culture seriously, um

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Speaker 1: as a locust of activism and uh, and highlight and

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Speaker 1: and celebrate the spaces where where people were really bringing

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Speaker 1: feminist in contact with this kind of like mass media

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Speaker 1: culture that that we all consume. Well, so what was

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Speaker 1: the bridge from running Bitch to then writing this book,

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Speaker 1: Because you say in the introduction or towards the beginning

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Speaker 1: of the book that as you started writing it, all

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Speaker 1: of a sudden, feminism became cool. So what was that

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Speaker 1: bridge in between Bitch and writing the book and what

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Speaker 1: was going on as you were writing it? Yeah, So

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Speaker 1: it's interesting because I had started so the book Feminist,

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Speaker 1: the book Feminism and pop Culture that I wrote that

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Speaker 1: came out in two thousand and eight. Um, that was

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Speaker 1: very much kind of like a primer on the the

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Speaker 1: symbiotic relationship between feminism and pop culture that had been

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Speaker 1: going on since you know, the early part of the

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Speaker 1: twentieth century. Um. And because so much had happened with

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Speaker 1: respect to feminism and pop culture since two thousand eight. Um,

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Speaker 1: around two thousand and eleven, I started, you know, writing

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Speaker 1: a proposal for a book that sort of updated it. Um.

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Speaker 1: I speak a lot of colleges and you versities, and

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Speaker 1: so one of the things I hear a lot from

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Speaker 1: students is I really liked your book, but I feel

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Speaker 1: like so much has happened, or I feel like so

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Speaker 1: much has changed, or I feel like things have gotten better.

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Speaker 1: It's like, you're absolutely right, like this is a this

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Speaker 1: is this would be a really good sort of project

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Speaker 1: to to talk about how much has changed and in

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Speaker 1: many ways, how much has changed for the better. Um. Uh,

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Speaker 1: no one wanted that book. No one wanted to buy it.

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Speaker 1: The original publisher of feminism and pop culture did not

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Speaker 1: want that book. And UM, I mean, I feel like

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Speaker 1: this is kind of like maybe I shouldn't be telling

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Speaker 1: tales out of school. But I thought that was really

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Speaker 1: fascinating because what I really wanted to write was this

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Speaker 1: kind of celebration of how pop culture had had kind

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Speaker 1: of moved the needle on feminism and vice versa. How

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Speaker 1: these two, these two cultural forces were really influencing each

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Speaker 1: other to do more and too and to be better. Um.

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Speaker 1: But as it turns out, um, the publishing industry wants

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Speaker 1: you to say something kind of more controversial than things

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Speaker 1: have gotten better. Um. And And you know, when I

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Speaker 1: when I started thinking about it, you know, it did

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Speaker 1: occur to me that there was kind of a flip

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Speaker 1: side to feminism exerting more kind of pull in the

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Speaker 1: realm of popular culture and feminism. And that was, um,

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Speaker 1: that capitalism was also having a really profound effect on

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Speaker 1: how people understood feminism and the need for feminism, and

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Speaker 1: that in many ways, a lot of the concepts and

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Speaker 1: the activism that had been nurtured within exclusively feminist spaces

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Speaker 1: was suddenly being harnessed by capitalist forces to sell stuff

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Speaker 1: to people, primarily women. Um. And so you know, sort

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Speaker 1: of looking at how advertising was uh, kind of co

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Speaker 1: opting a lot of the feminist discourse that we had

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Speaker 1: begun seeing online and at a grassroots level that seemed

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Speaker 1: like a fertile topic and a and a way to

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Speaker 1: sort of ask like what happens? What happens when you

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Speaker 1: get what you want? You know what I mean, what

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Speaker 1: happens when popular culture becomes more feminist? What happens when uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, media representations of feminism become widespread and celebrities

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Speaker 1: start embracing it. And so for me that was kind

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Speaker 1: of the bridge and the question of, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: kind of social movement also be a trend and not

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Speaker 1: lose anything for that movement. Well, could you argue that

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Speaker 1: popular culture is becoming more feminist at this moment across

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Speaker 1: the board or is it just dressed like a feminist?

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Speaker 1: You know, I think it is. I think no, I

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Speaker 1: think it is becoming more feminist. I mean, certainly there

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Speaker 1: are ways in which it's it's just dressing like a feminist.

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Speaker 1: And I think we see that maybe most starkly in

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Speaker 1: the realm of um, you know, sort of bald naked capitalism,

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Speaker 1: like advertising. But if you look at, for instance, television, UM,

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Speaker 1: that's a medium that has become demonstrably more feminist in

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Speaker 1: the sense that it is grappling not just with surface

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Speaker 1: issues but with systemic institutional issues. Who is creating stuff,

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Speaker 1: who's writing stuff, who is having stuff funded? Uh? The

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Speaker 1: economics of television have changed profoundly in a way that

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Speaker 1: opens up a space for more feminist creation. You know,

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Speaker 1: we no longer just have major networks. We have streaming services, UM,

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Speaker 1: we have web series, We have ways in which UM

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Speaker 1: creations that are alternatives to the status quo are are

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Speaker 1: really making an impact. UM. So yeah, I definitely feel

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Speaker 1: like there are pockets where popular culture are becoming more

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Speaker 1: feminist and and that those are also um changing the

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Speaker 1: lens through which many of us view all of popular culture. UM.

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Speaker 1: You know, back in when we started Bitch, you really

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Speaker 1: couldn't find much in mainstream culture that grappled with feminism. Uh.

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Speaker 1: There was stuff in academia, you know, you had like

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Speaker 1: Bell Hooks UM and Angela McRobbie and Dave Hickey talking

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Speaker 1: about uh issues with with feminist politics and representation. And

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Speaker 1: on the other end, you maybe had the occasional mention

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Speaker 1: of feminism, usually negatively in a place like Rolling Stone.

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Speaker 1: But there wasn't there was a vast space in the

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Speaker 1: middle that was neither looking nor caring to look at

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Speaker 1: culture through a feminist lens. And now you have you know,

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Speaker 1: Entertainment Weekly talking about the Bechdel Test. You have the

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Speaker 1: New York Times, you know, having two of its columnists

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Speaker 1: debate you know, women's roles in upcoming summer movies or

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Speaker 1: talking about the economics of um directing in Hollywood. So

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Speaker 1: it really is a place where as a lens as

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Speaker 1: a critical way to talk about what is and is

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Speaker 1: not existing in media and pop culture. Um, it's a

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Speaker 1: it's a it's a changed world. Well, and one thing

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Speaker 1: that you talk about in the book that has also

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Speaker 1: changed is our popular language of how we talk about feminism,

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Speaker 1: or at least what uh corporate entities would have us

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Speaker 1: think feminism is, specifically when it comes to something you

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Speaker 1: term empower tizing the whole thing of like buying the

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Speaker 1: thing that will make you feel better about yourself because

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Speaker 1: you're a strong woman. So, uh, we wanted you to

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Speaker 1: read a passage from the chapter in the book about

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Speaker 1: empowerment because I feel like, as someone who spends like

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Speaker 1: far too much time on the internet, Uh, empowerment is

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Speaker 1: a buzzword to the point that it's really meaningless in

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Speaker 1: a lot of ways. Um, so could you read to

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Speaker 1: us from that? Sure? Um? Yeah, So this is chapter seven.

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Speaker 1: It's called empowering Down. I have a bad case of

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Speaker 1: empowerment fatigue. The causes are legion pr e males that

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Speaker 1: begin with the phrase, I represent a brand whose sole

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Speaker 1: purpose is to empower women, Particularly around that time of

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Speaker 1: the month, women's magazine articles that promise empowering beauty tips,

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Speaker 1: followed by celebrity interviews in which Jennifer Aniston exclaims that

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Speaker 1: not wearing makeup for a role was so empowering. As

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Speaker 1: a catch all phrase that can be understood to mean

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Speaker 1: anything from self esteem building to sexy and feminine too awesome,

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Speaker 1: empowerment has become a way to signify a particularly female

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Speaker 1: way of being. It's both gender essentialist, because when was

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Speaker 1: the last time you heard a strip aerobics class for

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Speaker 1: men described as empowering and commercially motivated over the past

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Speaker 1: two decades. A partial list of everything that has been

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Speaker 1: deemed empowering by advertising campaigns, pop culture products, and feminist

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Speaker 1: rhetoric includes the following high heels, flats, cosmetic surgery, embracing

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Speaker 1: your wrinkles, having children, not having children, natural childbirth, how

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Speaker 1: being an epidural, embracing fat positivity, embracing anorexia, housework, living

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Speaker 1: like a slab, learning self defense, buying a gun, being butch,

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Speaker 1: being fem driving a truck, riding a motorcycle, riding a bike, walking, running, yoga,

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Speaker 1: pole dancing classes, growing your own food, butchering your own meat,

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Speaker 1: doing drugs, getting sober, having casual sex, embracing celibacy, being

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Speaker 1: a good friend, being a pole. By the time satirical

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Speaker 1: newspaper The Onion announced women now empowered by Everything a

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Speaker 1: woman does in a two thousand three article, it really

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Speaker 1: did seem that today's woman lives in a near constant

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Speaker 1: state of empowerment. More than ten years after that article,

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Speaker 1: empowerments association with women, power, activism, and success seems to

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Speaker 1: be its most robust legacy, and in media and popular

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Speaker 1: culture it's still very much in earnest and unquestioning use

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Speaker 1: by younger generation who have never known the term is

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Speaker 1: anything other than a way to say, this is a

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Speaker 1: thing that I, as a woman like to do. Empowerment

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Speaker 1: is both a facet of choice feminism. Anything can be

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Speaker 1: a feminist choice if a feminist makes that choice, and

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Speaker 1: a way to circumvent the use of the word feminist itself.

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Speaker 1: But what is empowerment and who does it benefit? In

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Speaker 1: most cases the answers are, respectively, whatever I decided it

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Speaker 1: is and pretty much just me. Yeah, And that's that's

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Speaker 1: a theme that comes up. Uh. That's a theme that

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Speaker 1: comes up again and again, the idea of pulling yourself

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Speaker 1: up by your bootstraps, empowering yourself. You're a feminist, so

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Speaker 1: you're good. So that's so, that's good, and that's the

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Speaker 1: end of the story. But so so where did we

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Speaker 1: get lost? I guess where where did we take a

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Speaker 1: wrong turn? From from having empowerment actually me and lifting

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Speaker 1: as we climb and caring about the community and helping

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Speaker 1: truly empower others to to to participate in this movement

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Speaker 1: and where it is now where if I wear high

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Speaker 1: heels or flats, I am somehow empowered? Yeah? I mean

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Speaker 1: it it really and I mean I talked about this

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Speaker 1: in the book how Empowerment you know, originally started as

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Speaker 1: this term that was about you know, lifting as you

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Speaker 1: climb and specifically about you know, sort of marginalized communities

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Speaker 1: and communities UM that no longer wanted to be you know,

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Speaker 1: endowed by top down you know, sort of charity focused organizations. UM.

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Speaker 1: And it really was about a sort of ongoing ethic

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Speaker 1: and a system UM. And it has become more of

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Speaker 1: a kind of static finite concept where like you buy something,

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Speaker 1: you buy something or you're empowered. You make a decision

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Speaker 1: and you're empowered. UM. You choose to be empowered, and

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Speaker 1: that is itself in it is in itself empowering. So

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Speaker 1: I mean, I think the short answer, um is capitalism,

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Speaker 1: and sadly that's the short answer for a lot of problems. UM.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, it really does come down to this idea

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Speaker 1: of UM, you know, the threat of what happens when

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Speaker 1: women interface with structural power UM and sort of softening

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Speaker 1: it into this idea of individuals rather than systems. So

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Speaker 1: when we talk about empowerment, we're talking about individuals. We're

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Speaker 1: not talking about UM foundational transformational change that helps everybody UM.

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Speaker 1: And a lot of that is because of this concept

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Speaker 1: of choice as the coin of the realm in feminism,

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Speaker 1: and that's always been aspect that's always been an aspect

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Speaker 1: of feminist movements. I mean it really, you know, it's

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Speaker 1: not as though feminism was once this you know, utterly

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Speaker 1: pure um, you know, completely other focused movement. There's always

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Speaker 1: been elements of you know, certainly uh, personal advancement and

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Speaker 1: compromise that leaves you know, whole swaps of people out. So,

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Speaker 1: you know, I think the shift toward empowerment as the

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Speaker 1: overarching structure was somewhat organic. Um, because feminism or feminisms

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Speaker 1: more accurately, huge, huge movements that you know, have always

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Speaker 1: grappled with how best to address structural issues, how best

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Speaker 1: to allocate power? Um? You know, which issues are uh

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Speaker 1: going to be outwardly focused and most appealing to people

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Speaker 1: who need to get on board for it to succeed.

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Speaker 1: So I mean, in a lot of ways, um, you know,

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Speaker 1: feminism has always been very right for kind of capitalist

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Speaker 1: co optation. And as we have become a much more

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Speaker 1: marketplace society, as we have been encouraged to see consumer

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Speaker 1: choice as sort of a stand in for structural change, Um,

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Speaker 1: it makes a lot of sense that the empowerment framework

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Speaker 1: would sort of replace the liberation for everyone framework. Well,

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Speaker 1: and you you say that, uh, feminism was ripe for

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Speaker 1: this kind of co optation. So I was wondering, compared

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Speaker 1: to other kinds of social justice movements, like why feminism

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Speaker 1: in particular being so vulnerable to this kind of uh effect. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean that's such a good question, And you know

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Speaker 1: it's I think that most social movements have seen some

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Speaker 1: degree of co optation, but I think feminism, um, because

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Speaker 1: it has always, um, it has always addressed and sort

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Speaker 1: of worked on women's innate need to appease other people

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Speaker 1: and to present kind of a a good, happy, um,

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Speaker 1: not angry face to the world. I mean, I think

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Speaker 1: it's feminism has been very prone to internalizing, uh, the

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Speaker 1: issues that all social movements face about you know, what

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Speaker 1: it means to to ask for stuff, what it means

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Speaker 1: to be unapologetic, what it means to really stand for something, um,

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Speaker 1: and and make people profoundly unhappy by just doing that. UM.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, I think that there has always been this

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Speaker 1: this thread of like, well, if we can just make

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Speaker 1: feminism attractive to more people, uh, then we'll really get

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Speaker 1: what we want. And you know, we've seen this track.

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Speaker 1: We've seen this fail over and over again, because that's

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Speaker 1: not how social movements work. They don't work by appeasing

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Speaker 1: other people. Um. But for some reason, there's been a

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Speaker 1: very strong thread uh, both within the movement and from

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Speaker 1: outside of real internalizing the criticism of you know, if

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Speaker 1: you just ask for this more nicely, maybe we'll give

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Speaker 1: it to you. Uh. If you just look a little prettier,

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Speaker 1: just like shave a little makeup, you know, like maybe

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00:27:14,920 --> 00:27:18,800
Speaker 1: we'll consider getting on board with you. Um, And that's

428
00:27:18,800 --> 00:27:22,720
Speaker 1: a dynamic that that sadly is still very much in play.

429
00:27:24,320 --> 00:27:27,200
Speaker 1: So speaking about getting on board with you, I did

430
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,159
Speaker 1: underline where you referenced alan Alda in the seventies, like

431
00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:34,359
Speaker 1: getting on board with our bodies, ourselves and getting on

432
00:27:34,359 --> 00:27:37,800
Speaker 1: board with second way feminism. And so that made me, I,

433
00:27:38,320 --> 00:27:40,680
Speaker 1: you know, I'm like circling Alan Alda because I'm like, hey,

434
00:27:40,680 --> 00:27:42,639
Speaker 1: I love Alan Alda and I had no idea that

435
00:27:42,680 --> 00:27:45,520
Speaker 1: I loved him even more now, um, And then I,

436
00:27:45,560 --> 00:27:46,879
Speaker 1: you know, I do an Errand I was like, but

437
00:27:47,200 --> 00:27:53,080
Speaker 1: Matt mcgory, because Matt mcgory, like, good for him. He,

438
00:27:53,320 --> 00:27:55,639
Speaker 1: you know, for anybody who doesn't know he's one of

439
00:27:55,640 --> 00:27:57,520
Speaker 1: the guards on, aren't just a new black. He's like

440
00:27:57,520 --> 00:28:01,520
Speaker 1: a very outspoken U maile fminist He you know, calls

441
00:28:01,600 --> 00:28:03,680
Speaker 1: himself an ally And on the one hand, that's great,

442
00:28:03,680 --> 00:28:05,760
Speaker 1: but a lot of people are shouting him down, saying

443
00:28:05,800 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 1: that he's like taking over the conversation and that he

444
00:28:09,840 --> 00:28:11,639
Speaker 1: needs to have a seat and all of this stuff.

445
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:15,960
Speaker 1: So that's sort of the double the double conundrum of like, Okay,

446
00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,120
Speaker 1: you've got celebrity feminism because in this marketplace, feminism. It's

447
00:28:20,160 --> 00:28:22,720
Speaker 1: it's so cool to call yourself that, whether or not

448
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:24,880
Speaker 1: you actually do anything with it. But then you've got

449
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:27,840
Speaker 1: the issue of of men claiming feminism too, and Matt mcgory.

450
00:28:27,920 --> 00:28:30,639
Speaker 1: So I'm just I don't know what my question is

451
00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:34,359
Speaker 1: other than like you just want to bash Matt mcgide,

452
00:28:35,600 --> 00:28:40,360
Speaker 1: I kind of do. I'm he seems really he seems

453
00:28:40,440 --> 00:28:45,120
Speaker 1: very sincere. But at the same time, like, you know, okay,

454
00:28:45,200 --> 00:28:49,240
Speaker 1: so let's say we had Instagram in the seventies and

455
00:28:49,400 --> 00:28:56,240
Speaker 1: let's say Alan Alda took a shirtless selfie. You know,

456
00:28:56,280 --> 00:28:59,720
Speaker 1: the prominent feminist text of the time, I mean not

457
00:28:59,880 --> 00:29:05,920
Speaker 1: a It is really around optics and this idea of like, um,

458
00:29:06,040 --> 00:29:08,120
Speaker 1: what is the what is the reason? What is this

459
00:29:08,200 --> 00:29:11,280
Speaker 1: person standing to gain? And I think, you know, again,

460
00:29:11,360 --> 00:29:14,560
Speaker 1: we're such we're a much more mediated culture than we

461
00:29:14,560 --> 00:29:18,760
Speaker 1: were even twenty years ago, much less in the nineteen seventies,

462
00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 1: and so there is this sense of like celebrities, it's

463
00:29:23,040 --> 00:29:26,720
Speaker 1: it's it can be a lot easier to distrust them

464
00:29:26,760 --> 00:29:29,880
Speaker 1: because we know that they're competing for airtime. We know

465
00:29:30,040 --> 00:29:33,720
Speaker 1: that they are, you know, one of of millions of

466
00:29:34,160 --> 00:29:38,360
Speaker 1: possible photo ops um, and we know that they do

467
00:29:38,560 --> 00:29:41,840
Speaker 1: tend to sort of latch onto the zeitgeist um and

468
00:29:42,000 --> 00:29:44,280
Speaker 1: use that for whatever they need to use it for.

469
00:29:44,320 --> 00:29:47,720
Speaker 1: I mean, that's that's what they do. Um. You know,

470
00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 1: Alan Aldo was part of a a targeted campaign by

471
00:29:52,360 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: Miss Magazine in the nineteen seventies to really raise awareness

472
00:29:55,640 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 1: on behalf of the Equal Rights Amendment being ratified. So

473
00:29:58,680 --> 00:30:03,840
Speaker 1: there was a very tan doble static goal there and

474
00:30:02,920 --> 00:30:06,080
Speaker 1: um and and Miss Magazine did this whole campaign where

475
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: they went out of you know, after tons of people, um,

476
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,239
Speaker 1: you know, some of whom were really uh you know,

477
00:30:12,720 --> 00:30:15,480
Speaker 1: sort of attractive and young, and some of whom were

478
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,200
Speaker 1: more like old guard to sort of get to sort

479
00:30:18,200 --> 00:30:20,560
Speaker 1: of cover their bases in terms of who they wanted

480
00:30:20,600 --> 00:30:24,240
Speaker 1: to um, really be mouthpieces for the e r A.

481
00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:26,960
Speaker 1: I think now it's a little bit more diffuse because

482
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 1: there isn't just one issue. There isn't just one campaign

483
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,000
Speaker 1: that we're working towards, and there isn't just one entity

484
00:30:33,040 --> 00:30:36,880
Speaker 1: that's really trying to sort of rally the troops. UM.

485
00:30:36,920 --> 00:30:40,160
Speaker 1: But yeah, I mean I think there's a valid, uh,

486
00:30:40,200 --> 00:30:43,320
Speaker 1: there's a valid point to be made that we often

487
00:30:43,480 --> 00:30:50,440
Speaker 1: reward um, the people for speaking up who are least challenging.

488
00:30:51,080 --> 00:30:55,960
Speaker 1: And you know, that could be a young white starlet

489
00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,400
Speaker 1: like Emma Watson Um who says things that feminist device

490
00:31:00,520 --> 00:31:03,560
Speaker 1: of all kinds have been saying for decades. But when

491
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:07,000
Speaker 1: she says that, everyone's like, WHOA, I get it now

492
00:31:08,000 --> 00:31:11,680
Speaker 1: it's coming out of this face and she's her maiyanee

493
00:31:11,760 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: and all of a sudden she's seen like I'm getting it.

494
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,760
Speaker 1: And I think there's this idea too of like, uh,

495
00:31:18,880 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: celebrities don't have to be feminists, they don't have to

496
00:31:22,560 --> 00:31:26,160
Speaker 1: get on board. They have everything, So maybe if someone

497
00:31:26,200 --> 00:31:29,680
Speaker 1: like Matt mcgorri Emma Watson is speaking up, that must

498
00:31:29,720 --> 00:31:33,640
Speaker 1: mean it's valid. Um. There's a very weird way that

499
00:31:33,680 --> 00:31:37,680
Speaker 1: we distrust people who we see having too much skin

500
00:31:37,720 --> 00:31:40,800
Speaker 1: in the game, you know what I mean. Like people

501
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:43,320
Speaker 1: don't want to hear a rape victim talking about why

502
00:31:43,440 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: rape is bad. They're like, whoa, she's too close to it,

503
00:31:46,480 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. It's almost like if we

504
00:31:48,360 --> 00:31:51,160
Speaker 1: had if we were like sending an astronaut to space,

505
00:31:51,160 --> 00:31:53,360
Speaker 1: and we were like, we can't send that guy. He's

506
00:31:53,400 --> 00:31:56,600
Speaker 1: got too much of a physics background, Like we're gonna

507
00:31:56,640 --> 00:32:00,800
Speaker 1: send this dude who read a book. Um, So there's

508
00:32:00,800 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: this there's this weird distrust of like people with experiential

509
00:32:05,120 --> 00:32:08,479
Speaker 1: knowledge and people who seem to care too much. And

510
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:12,200
Speaker 1: so when you have someone like Matt mcgoory, who's like

511
00:32:12,280 --> 00:32:15,680
Speaker 1: this hunky actor on a hit TV show talking about

512
00:32:15,680 --> 00:32:21,200
Speaker 1: the importance of feminism and like being all woke and stuff, um,

513
00:32:21,240 --> 00:32:22,960
Speaker 1: you know, people are like, well, he doesn't have to

514
00:32:22,960 --> 00:32:26,520
Speaker 1: do this, it must be legit um. And yeah, there's

515
00:32:26,560 --> 00:32:30,320
Speaker 1: there's certainly a way where that can get wearisome, especially

516
00:32:30,400 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: when again, feminist activists of all stripes have been saying

517
00:32:35,240 --> 00:32:38,320
Speaker 1: the same stuff for years and not getting even a

518
00:32:38,520 --> 00:32:43,200
Speaker 1: fraction of the of the props for it. So I

519
00:32:43,200 --> 00:32:48,920
Speaker 1: gotta ask you about Beyonce then, because it to that. Um,

520
00:32:49,040 --> 00:32:52,760
Speaker 1: because one one, uh moment that you say early in

521
00:32:52,800 --> 00:32:56,320
Speaker 1: the book is Beyonce at the v M A standing

522
00:32:56,360 --> 00:32:59,960
Speaker 1: in front of the massive like feminist uh you know,

523
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:04,040
Speaker 1: back lit thing. And in a lot of ways it

524
00:33:04,080 --> 00:33:07,320
Speaker 1: seems like she was kind of the one who opened

525
00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:10,520
Speaker 1: up the floodgates of the popularity that we see the

526
00:33:10,800 --> 00:33:14,560
Speaker 1: guysis of feminism. So I'm curious to know your thoughts

527
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:18,600
Speaker 1: on on Bay. Yeah, I mean that was a huge moment,

528
00:33:18,800 --> 00:33:21,600
Speaker 1: and for someone like me who grew up in the

529
00:33:21,640 --> 00:33:26,760
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties wondering why someone like Madonna would not align

530
00:33:26,800 --> 00:33:32,840
Speaker 1: herself explicitly with feminism, that was a huge moment um

531
00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,520
Speaker 1: because again, so much of how a lot of my

532
00:33:35,600 --> 00:33:39,920
Speaker 1: generation came to feminism was almost in spite of its

533
00:33:40,120 --> 00:33:44,840
Speaker 1: terrible optics and it's terrible pr It was like, well, okay,

534
00:33:44,920 --> 00:33:48,480
Speaker 1: everyone's expecting me to just be this you know, gross

535
00:33:48,800 --> 00:33:52,840
Speaker 1: person in an acid wash vest um talking about how

536
00:33:52,920 --> 00:33:55,840
Speaker 1: much she hates men, and you know that's really not

537
00:33:55,880 --> 00:33:59,000
Speaker 1: what it's about. But with Beyonce, that the concept of

538
00:33:59,280 --> 00:34:02,080
Speaker 1: you know, eight billion people, many of them young people,

539
00:34:02,840 --> 00:34:06,640
Speaker 1: um coming to feminism for the very first time seeing

540
00:34:06,640 --> 00:34:12,000
Speaker 1: it attached to the optics of Beyonce. You know, this beautiful, successful,

541
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:16,360
Speaker 1: biggest pop star in the world that's incredibly powerful. And

542
00:34:16,440 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: you saw in the days afterwards that like just the

543
00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:23,279
Speaker 1: Google searches for feminists just shot up, and it was like,

544
00:34:23,840 --> 00:34:27,560
Speaker 1: that's that's something. You know, if people if people's first

545
00:34:27,800 --> 00:34:32,120
Speaker 1: first association with feminism is Beyonce, um, I'm not going

546
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 1: to argue with that. At the same time, that moment

547
00:34:36,239 --> 00:34:38,600
Speaker 1: did not happen in a vacuum. You know, it happened

548
00:34:38,680 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 1: in many ways because of a you know, decades long

549
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,680
Speaker 1: ground swell of more grassroots feminist work and stuff that

550
00:34:47,719 --> 00:34:50,960
Speaker 1: was really percolating on the Internet and on social media

551
00:34:51,040 --> 00:34:54,160
Speaker 1: and on college campuses and in in uh, you know,

552
00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:59,240
Speaker 1: community organizing. So having Beyonce kind of put her flag

553
00:34:59,280 --> 00:35:04,400
Speaker 1: in the ground for feminism also, you know, was was

554
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,680
Speaker 1: fairly interpreted as a way to sort of capitalize that

555
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:11,520
Speaker 1: and make that part of the Beyonce brand, which already

556
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:16,040
Speaker 1: incorporated a lot of stuff. Um. So yeah, certainly, I

557
00:35:16,040 --> 00:35:20,160
Speaker 1: think there's there's a few ways to look at it. Um.

558
00:35:20,200 --> 00:35:22,560
Speaker 1: But I also think that Beyonce, for some reason has

559
00:35:22,600 --> 00:35:25,360
Speaker 1: been a really weird flash point for a lot of

560
00:35:25,400 --> 00:35:30,640
Speaker 1: people who are otherwise um, very gung ho about celebrity feminism.

561
00:35:30,640 --> 00:35:33,800
Speaker 1: And we certainly saw this leading up to that VM

562
00:35:33,800 --> 00:35:39,080
Speaker 1: a moment where um, you know, Beyonce's feminism had been

563
00:35:39,120 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: debated in public forums for years leading up to that,

564
00:35:43,200 --> 00:35:45,440
Speaker 1: and I was like, oh, well, Beyonce is a feminist.

565
00:35:45,440 --> 00:35:48,040
Speaker 1: Of course, she's a feminist, listen to Destiny's Child. But

566
00:35:48,120 --> 00:35:50,200
Speaker 1: then like, oh, Beyonce is not a feminist. She's not

567
00:35:50,239 --> 00:35:54,240
Speaker 1: wearing any pants. Um, so there were these very specific ways,

568
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: many of them rooted in, uh, you know, racism, that

569
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: people didn't want not want to allow Beyonce that feminist

570
00:36:01,800 --> 00:36:04,560
Speaker 1: identification in the same way they sort of took it

571
00:36:04,600 --> 00:36:08,839
Speaker 1: at face value from a lot of other female celebrities. Right, yeah,

572
00:36:08,880 --> 00:36:11,319
Speaker 1: we we definitely we did a Beyonce episode and we

573
00:36:11,360 --> 00:36:14,880
Speaker 1: definitely got the exact same responses of like, she doesn't

574
00:36:14,880 --> 00:36:17,840
Speaker 1: wear pants and I didn't realize I did wear pants

575
00:36:17,840 --> 00:36:24,160
Speaker 1: to be a feminist guy. Good job everybody, all right,

576
00:36:25,480 --> 00:36:27,319
Speaker 1: But I mean that moment, it was It was a

577
00:36:27,320 --> 00:36:32,160
Speaker 1: total like launch of a thousand think pieces moment. And

578
00:36:33,120 --> 00:36:37,319
Speaker 1: the Internet sometimes I sound like such an old The Internet, uh,

579
00:36:37,640 --> 00:36:41,720
Speaker 1: can can feel sometimes like it's collapsing in on itself,

580
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:45,360
Speaker 1: especially when it comes to the feminist think piece Capital

581
00:36:45,440 --> 00:36:49,879
Speaker 1: Left Capital Team. And so I'm I'm wondering about your

582
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:55,520
Speaker 1: take on that space on the Internet, and where's the

583
00:36:55,600 --> 00:37:01,200
Speaker 1: line between helpful analysis and and pausitive of reporting on issues,

584
00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: and like you guys are just dog biling each other

585
00:37:03,560 --> 00:37:06,320
Speaker 1: about who's a better or worse feminist? Like where spelt line?

586
00:37:06,560 --> 00:37:10,400
Speaker 1: And quickly before you answered that question, the that in

587
00:37:10,440 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 1: the background of um something you wrote about in Bitch

588
00:37:13,680 --> 00:37:16,600
Speaker 1: and uh an editor's letter not long ago about how

589
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:20,120
Speaker 1: feminist media has also been co opted in a way

590
00:37:20,120 --> 00:37:23,400
Speaker 1: of like, you have venture capital flowing into like women's

591
00:37:23,440 --> 00:37:29,520
Speaker 1: sights to churn out these kinds of click baby pieces. Yeah,

592
00:37:29,560 --> 00:37:33,280
Speaker 1: I mean that's a who that's a huge subject um

593
00:37:33,880 --> 00:37:35,640
Speaker 1: and that I feel like it's been coming up a

594
00:37:35,680 --> 00:37:39,279
Speaker 1: lot lately because we do have this kind of the Internet,

595
00:37:39,440 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 1: especially with respect to women's subjects, feminist subjects, has become

596
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,839
Speaker 1: this real clickbait economy where it often isn't about analysis,

597
00:37:48,920 --> 00:37:53,919
Speaker 1: it's about pitting two viewpoints against each other because these

598
00:37:53,920 --> 00:37:56,799
Speaker 1: outlets know that it's going to generate, you know, a

599
00:37:56,920 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: rash of hate reading and commenting and sharing that's going

600
00:38:00,160 --> 00:38:04,919
Speaker 1: to translate into advertising dollars. It's not about furthering a conversation.

601
00:38:05,360 --> 00:38:09,719
Speaker 1: It's about making money for you know, organizations that in

602
00:38:09,800 --> 00:38:12,799
Speaker 1: ten years will probably have a completely different focus that's

603
00:38:12,840 --> 00:38:17,480
Speaker 1: making an equal amount of money. Um So yeah, but uh,

604
00:38:17,840 --> 00:38:21,640
Speaker 1: in terms of yeah, it's it is And again this

605
00:38:21,719 --> 00:38:25,359
Speaker 1: is not unique to this moment in feminism. There has

606
00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:29,520
Speaker 1: always been a way in which it's much easier, uh,

607
00:38:29,560 --> 00:38:35,680
Speaker 1: to sort of have um, feminist viewpoints sort of sniping

608
00:38:35,719 --> 00:38:43,759
Speaker 1: at one another and uh and backbiting, because it it

609
00:38:43,800 --> 00:38:47,480
Speaker 1: saves us from having to tackle the really difficult, challenging,

610
00:38:48,400 --> 00:38:53,239
Speaker 1: uh insurmountable questions that have to do with things like

611
00:38:53,480 --> 00:38:59,320
Speaker 1: capitalism and institutionalized sexism. Um. So yeah, I mean it's again,

612
00:38:59,520 --> 00:39:03,800
Speaker 1: it's it's natural, and it's probably inevitable in many ways,

613
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:06,719
Speaker 1: but I do think we have to talk about the

614
00:39:06,719 --> 00:39:10,960
Speaker 1: the uh, the way that it is becoming com modified

615
00:39:11,160 --> 00:39:16,000
Speaker 1: to a vastly unhelpful degree. Um, you know, and as

616
00:39:16,040 --> 00:39:18,920
Speaker 1: a as a feminist media creator, I feel like it's

617
00:39:18,960 --> 00:39:21,239
Speaker 1: hard for me to talk about this stuff without being

618
00:39:21,280 --> 00:39:25,400
Speaker 1: accused of sort of sour graping or being jealous, because yeah,

619
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:31,200
Speaker 1: I'm hella jealous that like Bustle got I forget how

620
00:39:31,280 --> 00:39:33,840
Speaker 1: much a lot, like six point five million in venture

621
00:39:33,840 --> 00:39:37,640
Speaker 1: capital um because the you know, the person who the

622
00:39:37,719 --> 00:39:40,680
Speaker 1: venture capital capitalists who found it was like, yeah, I

623
00:39:40,719 --> 00:39:42,319
Speaker 1: don't know, I just I just don't see a lot

624
00:39:42,360 --> 00:39:45,400
Speaker 1: of feminist meeting media out there for women and like

625
00:39:45,440 --> 00:39:48,760
Speaker 1: wherever they're going, Like us, you could give that money

626
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 1: to like do you know what we could do with

627
00:39:50,320 --> 00:39:55,320
Speaker 1: like five hundred thousand dollars much less six point five million. Uh,

628
00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:57,680
Speaker 1: but but yeah, it's sort of not about that. It's

629
00:39:57,680 --> 00:40:01,279
Speaker 1: sort of about the idea that you're gonna you know,

630
00:40:01,360 --> 00:40:04,880
Speaker 1: you have your own thing that you own, and that

631
00:40:04,960 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: ends up churning out you know, sort of listicals like

632
00:40:08,440 --> 00:40:12,239
Speaker 1: the five times that Taylor Swift's cat was the most

633
00:40:12,320 --> 00:40:19,200
Speaker 1: feminist cat ever. Um, because again, like that's that's easy

634
00:40:19,239 --> 00:40:23,560
Speaker 1: that for that does not ask people to confront industries.

635
00:40:23,680 --> 00:40:28,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't ask people to confront really entrenched systems. Um.

636
00:40:28,160 --> 00:40:31,840
Speaker 1: It's fun and it you know, makes us feel good

637
00:40:31,880 --> 00:40:35,200
Speaker 1: about what we're consuming. It makes us feel like, okay,

638
00:40:35,280 --> 00:40:38,319
Speaker 1: so this is feminist. That means it's okay for me

639
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:40,839
Speaker 1: to consume it, and I don't have to think too

640
00:40:40,840 --> 00:40:43,839
Speaker 1: hard about you know, the sort of larger scope of

641
00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: of what's happening here. I don't know if I answered

642
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,319
Speaker 1: your guy went off on that. I don't know if

643
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:51,640
Speaker 1: I answered that. I lot of feelings about this well,

644
00:40:51,640 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: and that brings up, um, a lot of this choice

645
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:57,880
Speaker 1: feminism that has written about. You know, a lot of

646
00:40:57,880 --> 00:41:00,920
Speaker 1: those listicals are kind of based around the whole like

647
00:41:01,360 --> 00:41:04,880
Speaker 1: I choose my choice, you know, sort of ethos and

648
00:41:04,880 --> 00:41:08,840
Speaker 1: I'm wondering what the relationship is between choice feminism and

649
00:41:08,880 --> 00:41:11,719
Speaker 1: what you term marketplace feminism, because it seems like they

650
00:41:11,760 --> 00:41:16,560
Speaker 1: are like dependent on one another, and did one like

651
00:41:16,600 --> 00:41:19,280
Speaker 1: which came first? Kind of like, how do we untangle

652
00:41:19,360 --> 00:41:23,239
Speaker 1: the two and get back to you know, starting point? Yeah,

653
00:41:23,320 --> 00:41:25,240
Speaker 1: I mean, I think in a lot of ways, choice

654
00:41:25,280 --> 00:41:29,839
Speaker 1: feminism has has always existed on some level as as

655
00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:32,840
Speaker 1: part of UH feminist movements and as part of the

656
00:41:33,200 --> 00:41:36,680
Speaker 1: sort of discourse around what it means to be feminist. Um.

657
00:41:36,719 --> 00:41:39,640
Speaker 1: And at the same time, marketplace feminism has always existed

658
00:41:39,680 --> 00:41:41,520
Speaker 1: on some level in the sense that as long as

659
00:41:41,520 --> 00:41:44,759
Speaker 1: there have been feminist movements, there have been industries uh

660
00:41:44,800 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: and entities looking to cash in on them. Um. You know.

661
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:53,080
Speaker 1: So for instance, when you know, in the in the

662
00:41:53,120 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 1: early nineteen twenties, when it became okay for women to

663
00:41:56,760 --> 00:42:00,120
Speaker 1: smoke cigarettes in public, you know, you had the too

664
00:42:00,360 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 1: big tobacco companies basically saying, well, we can cash in

665
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: on this because this is a huge new demographic for us.

666
00:42:07,160 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 1: How are we going to do that. We're gonna do

667
00:42:08,800 --> 00:42:12,760
Speaker 1: it by equating the freedom to smoke with the freedom

668
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:16,000
Speaker 1: to you know, be a citizen of the world and

669
00:42:16,080 --> 00:42:19,160
Speaker 1: to exist in public. Um. And that was you know,

670
00:42:19,320 --> 00:42:21,920
Speaker 1: that was a very canny move, like advertisers are not

671
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: done at all, um. And as time has gone on,

672
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:32,080
Speaker 1: I definitely think that choice feminism has paralleled the development

673
00:42:32,200 --> 00:42:38,000
Speaker 1: of an ever more consumerist, ever more individualist society. And

674
00:42:38,040 --> 00:42:41,480
Speaker 1: the reason why I coined the term marketplace feminism and

675
00:42:41,600 --> 00:42:45,120
Speaker 1: didn't just build on, you know, other pre existing terms

676
00:42:45,120 --> 00:42:49,240
Speaker 1: like commodity feminism or corporate feminism is because the idea

677
00:42:49,280 --> 00:42:52,400
Speaker 1: of choice is so paramount, the idea that you can

678
00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,960
Speaker 1: sort of go through life with this kind of buffet

679
00:42:56,960 --> 00:43:02,000
Speaker 1: mentality like, oh, I'm choosing this, this looks good that no, Um,

680
00:43:02,040 --> 00:43:04,919
Speaker 1: that you can just kind of embrace or discard things

681
00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,560
Speaker 1: that will uh and and sort of cobble together a

682
00:43:08,640 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 1: feminist outlook or a feminist image or a feminist identity

683
00:43:12,040 --> 00:43:16,080
Speaker 1: from them seems really important because again, it allows people

684
00:43:16,280 --> 00:43:22,920
Speaker 1: to engage um with the most attractive or easiest aspect

685
00:43:23,120 --> 00:43:25,840
Speaker 1: of feminism as a social movement and as a lens

686
00:43:25,880 --> 00:43:30,279
Speaker 1: and as a politic and really refused to engage with

687
00:43:30,360 --> 00:43:35,400
Speaker 1: the ways in which it is structural, it is entrenched, um.

688
00:43:35,440 --> 00:43:39,200
Speaker 1: And it is not a rewarding kind of fight, you

689
00:43:39,239 --> 00:43:41,240
Speaker 1: know what I mean. It's it's like a it's a battle.

690
00:43:42,000 --> 00:43:46,520
Speaker 1: So so, feminism obviously has been co opted in many

691
00:43:46,520 --> 00:43:50,239
Speaker 1: ways by capitalism. Um, but it's also more popular than

692
00:43:50,280 --> 00:43:54,480
Speaker 1: ever before, as you've talked about, so is it? Is

693
00:43:54,520 --> 00:43:57,600
Speaker 1: it a bad thing? Like all of the corporate interests aside?

694
00:43:58,160 --> 00:44:01,440
Speaker 1: What do we do with this popularity of feminism because

695
00:44:01,440 --> 00:44:05,920
Speaker 1: it seems I mean, it seems like horrible to say, like, well,

696
00:44:05,960 --> 00:44:10,840
Speaker 1: I wish you weren't so popular, but okay, yeah, I

697
00:44:10,840 --> 00:44:13,320
Speaker 1: mean feminism like feminism. It's not like an indie band

698
00:44:13,400 --> 00:44:15,759
Speaker 1: that you're like, oh god, I was really into it

699
00:44:15,800 --> 00:44:18,040
Speaker 1: and I'm not popular right now. They saw were the

700
00:44:18,120 --> 00:44:21,239
Speaker 1: original feminism, and I think, you know, and often when

701
00:44:21,280 --> 00:44:23,680
Speaker 1: I talk about this stuff, that's the response I get.

702
00:44:23,719 --> 00:44:25,640
Speaker 1: I mean, most of that is from people who don't

703
00:44:25,680 --> 00:44:27,960
Speaker 1: care about feminism and are not interested anyway, and they're

704
00:44:28,000 --> 00:44:33,919
Speaker 1: basically just trolls like, oh, she's isn't like feminism anymore popular? Um,

705
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:36,120
Speaker 1: But that's not really it. I mean, I I think

706
00:44:36,160 --> 00:44:38,759
Speaker 1: the most and this is again this has always been true.

707
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:42,680
Speaker 1: I think the most important part of sort of harnessing

708
00:44:42,920 --> 00:44:48,080
Speaker 1: feminism's moment um for a lasting impact and a more

709
00:44:48,120 --> 00:44:53,160
Speaker 1: than surface level effect is really critical thinking, um and

710
00:44:53,160 --> 00:44:55,719
Speaker 1: and thinking about like, well, you know, what is the

711
00:44:55,760 --> 00:45:01,399
Speaker 1: difference between a corporation using feminist lang which but not

712
00:45:01,520 --> 00:45:04,720
Speaker 1: changing any of its business practices. Say, what's the difference

713
00:45:04,760 --> 00:45:09,520
Speaker 1: between that and between you know, small independent companies, say,

714
00:45:09,600 --> 00:45:14,160
Speaker 1: you know, coming up with inventions that that truly are

715
00:45:14,400 --> 00:45:18,359
Speaker 1: toward a more equal world, or marketing concepts that that

716
00:45:18,440 --> 00:45:20,480
Speaker 1: really do try to take the shame out of I

717
00:45:20,520 --> 00:45:23,319
Speaker 1: don't know, like menstrual products or condoms or something like that.

718
00:45:23,719 --> 00:45:26,279
Speaker 1: I think there's a difference. And we live in a

719
00:45:26,360 --> 00:45:29,920
Speaker 1: society and a consumer cultural culture that often tries to

720
00:45:29,920 --> 00:45:33,239
Speaker 1: flatten those differences and convince us that one product is

721
00:45:33,239 --> 00:45:35,480
Speaker 1: the same as the other, or one parent company is

722
00:45:35,480 --> 00:45:37,120
Speaker 1: the same as the other. And I think it's really

723
00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:39,399
Speaker 1: up to us, as consumers and as people who are

724
00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:43,279
Speaker 1: constantly marketed to UM, to really put the onus on

725
00:45:43,280 --> 00:45:46,520
Speaker 1: ourselves to decide which is which and to really use

726
00:45:47,200 --> 00:45:49,879
Speaker 1: as much of our critical thinking faculties as we can

727
00:45:50,440 --> 00:45:53,719
Speaker 1: to UM to think about you know, are we what

728
00:45:53,760 --> 00:45:55,759
Speaker 1: are we doing? Is it in the service of equality,

729
00:45:55,880 --> 00:45:59,239
Speaker 1: Is it in the service of UM really making the

730
00:45:59,280 --> 00:46:02,359
Speaker 1: world and equitable place for everyone, or is it just

731
00:46:02,440 --> 00:46:05,520
Speaker 1: in the service of doing the work of multinational corporations

732
00:46:05,560 --> 00:46:09,120
Speaker 1: for them. Yeah, I mean you speak extensively about Dove,

733
00:46:09,160 --> 00:46:11,719
Speaker 1: for instance, in the book with their you know, a

734
00:46:11,800 --> 00:46:16,399
Speaker 1: decade plus of campaigns and how those have evolved all

735
00:46:16,440 --> 00:46:20,799
Speaker 1: around you know, real bodies, etcetera, etcetera, and body positivity

736
00:46:20,800 --> 00:46:25,319
Speaker 1: and things like that. So I mean, is it is

737
00:46:25,360 --> 00:46:28,040
Speaker 1: it better could you argue to support a company like

738
00:46:28,120 --> 00:46:32,640
Speaker 1: Dove that's like using their evil powers for slight reasons

739
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:36,680
Speaker 1: or Yeah, I mean that's that's a good question because

740
00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:39,440
Speaker 1: and and again, this is a place where we're sort

741
00:46:39,440 --> 00:46:44,480
Speaker 1: of like, um, we often feel very powerless against capitalism,

742
00:46:44,680 --> 00:46:47,520
Speaker 1: and it's it's it's very natural to be like, well,

743
00:46:47,640 --> 00:46:51,680
Speaker 1: I'm going to be advertised to anyway, um, which is

744
00:46:51,719 --> 00:46:55,040
Speaker 1: the least bad way to sort of negotiate my role

745
00:46:55,080 --> 00:46:59,680
Speaker 1: as a consumer within that. Um. And and Dove is

746
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:03,200
Speaker 1: a Dove is a really interesting example because when that

747
00:47:03,280 --> 00:47:07,239
Speaker 1: campaign for real beauty started, it was really promising. You know,

748
00:47:07,280 --> 00:47:11,960
Speaker 1: they had they had scholars, they had global studies. Um.

749
00:47:12,040 --> 00:47:17,239
Speaker 1: The early ads really were um jarring in a very beautiful,

750
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:21,399
Speaker 1: impactful way that they were using bodies and people and

751
00:47:21,480 --> 00:47:27,000
Speaker 1: faces um that we never associate with beauty. But as

752
00:47:27,080 --> 00:47:30,719
Speaker 1: time went on and it became more you know, widespread,

753
00:47:30,760 --> 00:47:34,120
Speaker 1: and it got more notice, it started becoming more and

754
00:47:34,200 --> 00:47:38,080
Speaker 1: more homogenized, to the point where now it's sort of

755
00:47:38,120 --> 00:47:44,239
Speaker 1: like this kind of very empty platitudes, um that pay

756
00:47:44,360 --> 00:47:47,400
Speaker 1: lip service to the idea of difference but don't represent

757
00:47:47,520 --> 00:47:50,759
Speaker 1: it in any meaningful way. Um. And so you know,

758
00:47:50,840 --> 00:47:52,640
Speaker 1: I think that's important. And then all the while, of

759
00:47:52,680 --> 00:47:55,680
Speaker 1: course they're peddling you know, skin lightning cream to women

760
00:47:55,719 --> 00:48:00,840
Speaker 1: across South Asia, um or you know, making act body

761
00:48:00,880 --> 00:48:04,200
Speaker 1: spray or whatever. You know, that's I mean that you know,

762
00:48:04,239 --> 00:48:07,080
Speaker 1: Dove's parent company is the same parent company as as

763
00:48:07,080 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: as body Spray as fair and Lovely lightning creams, so

764
00:48:10,040 --> 00:48:14,160
Speaker 1: that matters. Um. So it's sort of like, well, is

765
00:48:14,200 --> 00:48:17,520
Speaker 1: it better to support Dove than to support I don't

766
00:48:17,520 --> 00:48:20,400
Speaker 1: know who else makes this stuff. I'm just trying to

767
00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:25,400
Speaker 1: think of another soap company, Like I don't know Jennifer,

768
00:48:26,800 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 1: she knows so much about fee. So yeah, but I

769
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:33,280
Speaker 1: think we're in a but we're in a good place

770
00:48:33,320 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: now because it's sort of like, well, we we could

771
00:48:35,280 --> 00:48:38,719
Speaker 1: support Dove and we could buy into the line that like,

772
00:48:38,880 --> 00:48:41,560
Speaker 1: well they really want us to be more confident, um.

773
00:48:41,600 --> 00:48:46,160
Speaker 1: But also maybe my under arms aren't white enough, and

774
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 1: it just so happens that they created this deodorant to

775
00:48:49,200 --> 00:48:53,120
Speaker 1: make my under arms look better. Um So we could

776
00:48:53,160 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 1: yeah right, we're all waiting for it. Um So we

777
00:48:56,400 --> 00:48:59,600
Speaker 1: could support that. But we could also go on Etsy,

778
00:48:59,760 --> 00:49:02,960
Speaker 1: you know, a corporation that actively recruits, you know, female

779
00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:08,120
Speaker 1: developers and supports female creators and artisans, and we could

780
00:49:08,200 --> 00:49:12,480
Speaker 1: buy some soap that's made by a person who is

781
00:49:12,560 --> 00:49:15,640
Speaker 1: not going to turn around and use those profits for

782
00:49:15,760 --> 00:49:19,160
Speaker 1: their parent company to promote racism in South Asia. It's

783
00:49:19,160 --> 00:49:21,560
Speaker 1: like we have more choices than we did even a

784
00:49:21,600 --> 00:49:24,080
Speaker 1: decade ago. Um. So, I think a lot of the

785
00:49:24,120 --> 00:49:27,880
Speaker 1: time it really is again a matter of thinking about,

786
00:49:28,160 --> 00:49:30,920
Speaker 1: you know, where your dollars are going to make a difference,

787
00:49:31,280 --> 00:49:34,840
Speaker 1: because we'll always be consumers, will always be encouraged to consume,

788
00:49:35,680 --> 00:49:40,040
Speaker 1: will always be tempted to consume. It can be really fun. Um.

789
00:49:40,080 --> 00:49:41,960
Speaker 1: But I think the best tools that we have at

790
00:49:42,000 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: our disposal now are are really are our critical thinking

791
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,240
Speaker 1: faculties and our ability to research. Um. What it means

792
00:49:50,280 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 1: for a company like Dove to be uh kind of

793
00:49:53,520 --> 00:50:02,200
Speaker 1: co opting the language of a feminism. Caroline trips to

794
00:50:02,239 --> 00:50:04,880
Speaker 1: the post office are never convenient, So why aren't we

795
00:50:04,880 --> 00:50:07,640
Speaker 1: getting our postage right from our desks? Because you know

796
00:50:07,680 --> 00:50:11,160
Speaker 1: what we can with stamps dot com. That's right, and

797
00:50:11,200 --> 00:50:13,040
Speaker 1: here's how it works. You can use your own computer

798
00:50:13,080 --> 00:50:15,319
Speaker 1: and printer to buy in print officially US postage for

799
00:50:15,400 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 1: any letter or package. Just drop it in the mailbox.

800
00:50:18,719 --> 00:50:21,600
Speaker 1: It's that easy. And right now you can sign up

801
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:24,000
Speaker 1: for stamps dot com and use our promo code stuff

802
00:50:24,080 --> 00:50:26,359
Speaker 1: to get a special offer. It's a four week trial

803
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,759
Speaker 1: plus one dollar bonus offtware that includes postage and a

804
00:50:29,840 --> 00:50:32,759
Speaker 1: digital scale. So don't wait get started with stamps dot

805
00:50:32,760 --> 00:50:35,200
Speaker 1: com today. Go to stamps dot com. Before you do

806
00:50:35,239 --> 00:50:37,239
Speaker 1: anything else, click on the microphone at the top of

807
00:50:37,280 --> 00:50:40,360
Speaker 1: the homepage and type in stuff at stamps dot com

808
00:50:40,520 --> 00:50:49,200
Speaker 1: enter stuff. So now comes the Q and a portion

809
00:50:49,600 --> 00:50:53,719
Speaker 1: of our Lady Fest event with Andy Zeisler. And like

810
00:50:53,760 --> 00:50:55,520
Speaker 1: we said at the top of the podcast, the audio

811
00:50:55,640 --> 00:50:59,680
Speaker 1: was a little sketchy when the audience members were speaking,

812
00:51:00,320 --> 00:51:04,279
Speaker 1: and so we're gonna paraphrase. And the first audience member

813
00:51:04,320 --> 00:51:08,080
Speaker 1: who stood up and asked a question wanted to further

814
00:51:08,200 --> 00:51:11,200
Speaker 1: the conversation that we had sort of touched on during

815
00:51:11,200 --> 00:51:14,840
Speaker 1: the interview about Beyonce. Right, Beyonce is such a lightning

816
00:51:14,920 --> 00:51:19,040
Speaker 1: rod in the in the conversation around modern feminism, and

817
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:23,840
Speaker 1: with the release of her album Lemonade and her videos

818
00:51:23,960 --> 00:51:27,680
Speaker 1: for Lemonade, UM, we saw Bell Hooks come out and

819
00:51:27,719 --> 00:51:32,880
Speaker 1: write an essay basically Bell Hooks was not down with

820
00:51:33,040 --> 00:51:37,200
Speaker 1: Beyonce's Lemonade. And so this audience member, who feels really

821
00:51:37,280 --> 00:51:43,080
Speaker 1: invested in both Beyonce and bell Hooks as feminists, described

822
00:51:43,200 --> 00:51:46,400
Speaker 1: how she felt like this was evidence of a larger

823
00:51:46,800 --> 00:51:50,319
Speaker 1: schism in modern feminism, perhaps a generation gap. And so

824
00:51:50,440 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 1: here's Andy addressing that audience member's question. Yeah, I mean

825
00:51:54,440 --> 00:51:58,719
Speaker 1: that's it is. That's that's I've had those same reactions

826
00:51:58,760 --> 00:52:03,120
Speaker 1: to reading bell Boks on Beyonce, and especially because you know,

827
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:06,520
Speaker 1: Bell Hooks was the one who wrote a book called

828
00:52:06,520 --> 00:52:09,440
Speaker 1: Feminism Is for Everybody, you know, and she's been such

829
00:52:09,480 --> 00:52:15,719
Speaker 1: a um someone who has done so much incredible foundational

830
00:52:15,760 --> 00:52:20,879
Speaker 1: work in locating um, you know, critical feminist and race

831
00:52:20,960 --> 00:52:24,879
Speaker 1: theory within pop culture. So it is, it's very it's

832
00:52:24,960 --> 00:52:27,399
Speaker 1: very hard to read stuff like that. It feels like

833
00:52:27,480 --> 00:52:30,040
Speaker 1: you know, your your mom's are fighting, or your two

834
00:52:30,120 --> 00:52:34,799
Speaker 1: favorite ants or fighting, and just like stop, um, you know,

835
00:52:34,880 --> 00:52:37,680
Speaker 1: but I also think it can be worthwhile to have

836
00:52:37,800 --> 00:52:42,239
Speaker 1: conversations about, you know, the limits of this kind of

837
00:52:42,280 --> 00:52:47,200
Speaker 1: discourse and the limits of UM sort of trying to

838
00:52:47,360 --> 00:52:53,160
Speaker 1: define what is a pure feminism. And I think, you know,

839
00:52:53,320 --> 00:52:56,359
Speaker 1: this provides an opportunity to say, maybe there's no such thing.

840
00:52:56,760 --> 00:52:59,960
Speaker 1: You know, maybe we're all working in these very circum

841
00:53:00,000 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 1: subscribed systems UM where obviously our experiences and our priorities

842
00:53:08,040 --> 00:53:12,440
Speaker 1: are going to affect how we um, how generously we

843
00:53:12,520 --> 00:53:16,920
Speaker 1: sort of understand one another's UM goals, and there may

844
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 1: be places where we're not always going to agree. And

845
00:53:20,400 --> 00:53:23,480
Speaker 1: I think that's certainly been a long time fracture within

846
00:53:23,560 --> 00:53:26,040
Speaker 1: feminist movements, this idea that there has to be a

847
00:53:26,120 --> 00:53:30,080
Speaker 1: unified front UM. And I you know, I feel like

848
00:53:30,120 --> 00:53:32,400
Speaker 1: most of the young activists I've come into contact with

849
00:53:32,480 --> 00:53:35,800
Speaker 1: over the past two decades have been have really opened

850
00:53:35,800 --> 00:53:40,440
Speaker 1: my eyes in terms of saying, like, it can't it's

851
00:53:40,520 --> 00:53:43,279
Speaker 1: not going to just be one movement, because if it is,

852
00:53:43,680 --> 00:53:45,080
Speaker 1: it's going to be the same as it ever was,

853
00:53:45,239 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 1: and the concerns of the loudest, the richest, the widest,

854
00:53:50,840 --> 00:53:54,719
Speaker 1: the most privileged are always going to rise to the top. UM.

855
00:53:54,760 --> 00:53:56,760
Speaker 1: So maybe we need to let go of the idea

856
00:53:56,840 --> 00:53:59,759
Speaker 1: that it needs to be a united front. So that's

857
00:53:59,800 --> 00:54:06,399
Speaker 1: me trying to be optimistic about that. I'm obviously Yeah.

858
00:54:06,520 --> 00:54:09,160
Speaker 1: So the second question was coming from a young woman

859
00:54:09,160 --> 00:54:13,000
Speaker 1: in the audience who wanted to know whether there were

860
00:54:13,040 --> 00:54:18,719
Speaker 1: any alternative paths toward gender equality that Zeisler could suggest.

861
00:54:18,800 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 1: She asked, do you have any insight on models to

862
00:54:22,160 --> 00:54:26,080
Speaker 1: dismantle structures? Because she said, I feel like a lot

863
00:54:26,120 --> 00:54:29,359
Speaker 1: of responses to feminism today or tear it down, build

864
00:54:29,400 --> 00:54:32,279
Speaker 1: a new thing, which is the philosophy I subscribe to,

865
00:54:32,680 --> 00:54:35,440
Speaker 1: but not everyone has the luxury of fighting the system

866
00:54:35,600 --> 00:54:38,360
Speaker 1: every day. Well, and that's similar to I'm going to

867
00:54:38,440 --> 00:54:43,440
Speaker 1: piggyback on that question because I was wondering how you

868
00:54:43,480 --> 00:54:47,319
Speaker 1: do take this and the idea of feminism being something

869
00:54:47,360 --> 00:54:50,120
Speaker 1: that you do, not just a label that you wear

870
00:54:50,400 --> 00:54:55,720
Speaker 1: because it's really cool. Um, if you are someone who

871
00:54:55,880 --> 00:54:59,719
Speaker 1: feels powerless to create that kind of systemic change, or

872
00:54:59,760 --> 00:55:02,320
Speaker 1: maybe you're just exhausted because you have like two jobs

873
00:55:02,320 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: and a kid, whatever it might be, you know what

874
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:05,880
Speaker 1: I mean, Like in the same kind of way of like,

875
00:55:05,920 --> 00:55:10,960
Speaker 1: what are the accessible ways that we can do the

876
00:55:11,000 --> 00:55:14,360
Speaker 1: work of feminism. Yeah, and again, I think this is

877
00:55:14,400 --> 00:55:17,440
Speaker 1: one of those places where we are in a very

878
00:55:17,560 --> 00:55:23,040
Speaker 1: very lucky and and fruitful time to be having these conversations. Um.

879
00:55:23,080 --> 00:55:26,239
Speaker 1: You know, I think even in the past, like even

880
00:55:26,239 --> 00:55:28,839
Speaker 1: when I was in college in the nineteen nineties, there

881
00:55:28,920 --> 00:55:30,759
Speaker 1: was a sense of like, if you weren't going to

882
00:55:30,800 --> 00:55:32,839
Speaker 1: go whole hog, if you weren't going to go all

883
00:55:32,920 --> 00:55:35,719
Speaker 1: in and devote your life to being an activist, what

884
00:55:35,760 --> 00:55:38,799
Speaker 1: was the point because you wouldn't conceivably be able to

885
00:55:38,840 --> 00:55:43,040
Speaker 1: do much. Um, So there was this sense of like, well,

886
00:55:43,440 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 1: I don't you know, I don't have the bandwidth to

887
00:55:46,760 --> 00:55:50,800
Speaker 1: to march all the time. I'm not a rabble rouser

888
00:55:51,160 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 1: I you know. You know, people felt like what can

889
00:55:54,360 --> 00:55:56,839
Speaker 1: I do given the type of person I am, with

890
00:55:56,880 --> 00:55:59,680
Speaker 1: the constraints I have in my life, with the needs

891
00:55:59,719 --> 00:56:02,360
Speaker 1: I have of to you know, go to school or

892
00:56:02,520 --> 00:56:05,200
Speaker 1: have you know, have a job, or support my family.

893
00:56:05,680 --> 00:56:08,239
Speaker 1: And I think now we're in a time where there

894
00:56:08,280 --> 00:56:12,240
Speaker 1: are so many more avenues that we actually see working

895
00:56:12,400 --> 00:56:16,920
Speaker 1: as modes of activism and modes of change. Um. You know,

896
00:56:16,960 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 1: a lot of people get down on things like social

897
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:23,600
Speaker 1: media and Twitter or you know, say, you know, call

898
00:56:23,680 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 1: its activism or hashtag activism or something. But in fact,

899
00:56:28,400 --> 00:56:31,560
Speaker 1: social media has opened up so much more space for

900
00:56:31,640 --> 00:56:37,240
Speaker 1: activism among people who probably would not have identified as activists, um,

901
00:56:37,280 --> 00:56:40,239
Speaker 1: who for reasons of their families, or their religion or

902
00:56:40,280 --> 00:56:43,520
Speaker 1: their jobs, would not be able to be an activist

903
00:56:43,560 --> 00:56:46,880
Speaker 1: in the classic mold. But with the you know, with

904
00:56:46,920 --> 00:56:49,239
Speaker 1: the time they have, with the tools they have, are

905
00:56:49,280 --> 00:56:54,880
Speaker 1: able to be part of really huge, um transformational campaigns

906
00:56:54,920 --> 00:57:00,320
Speaker 1: and discourses around feminism and activism. Um you know. Likewise, eyes,

907
00:57:00,360 --> 00:57:04,880
Speaker 1: I think we see more people understanding that it activism

908
00:57:04,960 --> 00:57:08,200
Speaker 1: isn't necessarily it doesn't necessarily have to be a career.

909
00:57:08,640 --> 00:57:11,160
Speaker 1: It doesn't necessarily have to be something that you do

910
00:57:11,880 --> 00:57:14,960
Speaker 1: seven And if you don't do seven, that doesn't mean

911
00:57:15,000 --> 00:57:17,600
Speaker 1: you're a failure as an activist or shouldn't be doing

912
00:57:17,640 --> 00:57:20,800
Speaker 1: it or are a dilatant um. So yeah, I mean,

913
00:57:20,920 --> 00:57:23,680
Speaker 1: I think there are a lot of really concrete ways

914
00:57:24,120 --> 00:57:28,600
Speaker 1: that we see people making change simply by speaking up,

915
00:57:29,000 --> 00:57:32,680
Speaker 1: being part of a community, being part of a project, um,

916
00:57:32,720 --> 00:57:36,720
Speaker 1: you know, devoting a finite set of hours and resources

917
00:57:36,760 --> 00:57:39,240
Speaker 1: to to working on the issues that they care about.

918
00:57:39,880 --> 00:57:43,840
Speaker 1: And I think too, we see a way in which Um,

919
00:57:44,800 --> 00:57:50,240
Speaker 1: the kind of uh pluralism of activism, the the way

920
00:57:50,280 --> 00:57:53,200
Speaker 1: that you don't have to be one kind of feminist

921
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:57,080
Speaker 1: or one kind of anti racist. Um, we see ways

922
00:57:57,120 --> 00:58:00,720
Speaker 1: in which that actually makes a different. It's like, maybe

923
00:58:00,720 --> 00:58:02,800
Speaker 1: it's good to be less of a generalist and more

924
00:58:02,800 --> 00:58:05,640
Speaker 1: of a specialist in terms of activism. So yeah, I

925
00:58:05,640 --> 00:58:09,440
Speaker 1: mean I think I think we're in for people who

926
00:58:09,800 --> 00:58:12,440
Speaker 1: care about issues, who have specific issues that they want

927
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:15,600
Speaker 1: to work on. Um. I think at this point there's

928
00:58:15,640 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 1: kind of no excuse for for not at least like

929
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:21,680
Speaker 1: getting your foot in there and and and starting to

930
00:58:21,720 --> 00:58:25,480
Speaker 1: do it. So our third question came from an audience

931
00:58:25,560 --> 00:58:31,640
Speaker 1: member who wanted to know not only whether we thought

932
00:58:31,840 --> 00:58:37,600
Speaker 1: that the feminist movement happening right now would maintain its momentum,

933
00:58:37,600 --> 00:58:41,160
Speaker 1: but also whether it would help to propel real change.

934
00:58:41,440 --> 00:58:45,240
Speaker 1: I think it already is. I mean if we just

935
00:58:45,360 --> 00:58:50,440
Speaker 1: look at like language and awareness around gender, for instance,

936
00:58:50,840 --> 00:58:55,680
Speaker 1: which in a lot of ways was fostered through social

937
00:58:55,720 --> 00:58:58,240
Speaker 1: media and through the Internet, I mean, I feel like

938
00:58:58,280 --> 00:59:02,040
Speaker 1: that's something huge that's broken through. Yeah, I mean I

939
00:59:02,040 --> 00:59:07,680
Speaker 1: think just the the the breaking out of language that

940
00:59:07,840 --> 00:59:14,120
Speaker 1: is often um, sort of caseted in these movements. Having

941
00:59:14,160 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: ways to sort of disseminate that out into the world

942
00:59:16,680 --> 00:59:19,360
Speaker 1: I think is really powerful. I mean, I you know,

943
00:59:19,560 --> 00:59:22,800
Speaker 1: I use the example of like the Stubenville rape case

944
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:26,880
Speaker 1: in Ohio or the Bill Cosby case, where you know,

945
00:59:27,000 --> 00:59:30,560
Speaker 1: we saw language that had previously been kind of confined

946
00:59:30,640 --> 00:59:34,800
Speaker 1: to feminist activist spaces coming in contact with mainstream media,

947
00:59:35,280 --> 00:59:37,360
Speaker 1: and maybe they shrugged at it at first, maybe they

948
00:59:37,360 --> 00:59:40,880
Speaker 1: were like a victim blaming what's that? But you know,

949
00:59:40,920 --> 00:59:43,880
Speaker 1: the more you repeat something and the more it becomes

950
00:59:43,920 --> 00:59:48,360
Speaker 1: accessible and legible, um, the more it becomes just part

951
00:59:48,520 --> 00:59:51,800
Speaker 1: of a sort of quotitian ambient feminism. And I think

952
00:59:51,800 --> 00:59:54,560
Speaker 1: that's what's happening, you know. I mean we all understand

953
00:59:54,600 --> 00:59:57,800
Speaker 1: now that you know, domestic violence is not something that's

954
00:59:57,840 --> 00:59:59,680
Speaker 1: okay and you shouldn't be able to like beat your

955
00:59:59,720 --> 01:00:02,640
Speaker 1: wife get away with it. In the nineteen sixties, that

956
01:00:02,760 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: was a new concept. So yeah, I mean things I've

957
01:00:05,040 --> 01:00:08,800
Speaker 1: had lasting effects, um, and I absolutely think they will

958
01:00:09,200 --> 01:00:11,520
Speaker 1: going forward as well. And it maybe like a one

959
01:00:11,520 --> 01:00:13,840
Speaker 1: step forward, two steps back, or two steps forward, one

960
01:00:13,840 --> 01:00:16,800
Speaker 1: step back situation, but it's going to happen. So as

961
01:00:16,800 --> 01:00:19,880
Speaker 1: a follow up to the previous question, another person raised

962
01:00:19,880 --> 01:00:24,760
Speaker 1: their hand to ask whether social media and so called

963
01:00:24,880 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 1: seal activism as it's often derisively referred to, can also

964
01:00:30,440 --> 01:00:35,520
Speaker 1: make an impact and change the world offline. So some

965
01:00:35,560 --> 01:00:38,080
Speaker 1: of you might remember, like it was several years ago

966
01:00:38,160 --> 01:00:43,360
Speaker 1: when the Susan G. Coleman Foundation, the breast cancer charity,

967
01:00:43,720 --> 01:00:48,840
Speaker 1: decided that they were no longer going to fund mammograms

968
01:00:49,080 --> 01:00:52,440
Speaker 1: for low income women at plant Parenthood because plant parenthood

969
01:00:52,480 --> 01:00:57,120
Speaker 1: also does abortions. Um. And they really thought they were

970
01:00:57,120 --> 01:00:59,800
Speaker 1: going to get away with that. Uh. They did not

971
01:01:00,080 --> 01:01:03,080
Speaker 1: count on the power of social media and the power

972
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,920
Speaker 1: of a kind of rapid response to really destabilize this

973
01:01:07,040 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: idea that you know, Um, they didn't have to be

974
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,240
Speaker 1: transparent as a charity organization. Um. And a lot of

975
01:01:15,280 --> 01:01:18,440
Speaker 1: that was focused on It wasn't just focused on abortion.

976
01:01:18,640 --> 01:01:22,360
Speaker 1: It was focused on this very intersectional idea of sure,

977
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:28,400
Speaker 1: abortion is accessible if you're already in a particularly privileged place. Um,

978
01:01:28,440 --> 01:01:33,000
Speaker 1: but mammograms uh, and you know, the ability to access

979
01:01:33,040 --> 01:01:36,920
Speaker 1: contraception and all these things are also part of reproductive

980
01:01:37,000 --> 01:01:40,040
Speaker 1: rights and reproductive justice. And I think again, this is

981
01:01:40,040 --> 01:01:42,840
Speaker 1: one of those things that the enormity of it, the

982
01:01:42,920 --> 01:01:45,760
Speaker 1: response and the fact that planned parenthood was able to

983
01:01:46,160 --> 01:01:49,960
Speaker 1: you know, raise more in donations than they would have

984
01:01:49,960 --> 01:01:53,200
Speaker 1: stood to lose from the defunding. I think that really

985
01:01:53,280 --> 01:01:57,680
Speaker 1: made an impact on people understanding that it's not you know,

986
01:01:58,000 --> 01:02:02,840
Speaker 1: it's not just about UH abortions, it's not just about access.

987
01:02:02,880 --> 01:02:06,760
Speaker 1: It's about really holding institutions and the people who run

988
01:02:06,800 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 1: them accountable for the things that they want to take

989
01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:13,360
Speaker 1: away from people. UM. And so I always, you know,

990
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,360
Speaker 1: I always think of that when I think about, you know,

991
01:02:15,400 --> 01:02:19,760
Speaker 1: social media and its ability to really make change, UM,

992
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,920
Speaker 1: because I do think the more we talk about UH

993
01:02:24,040 --> 01:02:28,200
Speaker 1: issues around you know, you know, better feminist adjacent or

994
01:02:28,240 --> 01:02:32,520
Speaker 1: civil rights adjacent adjacent, the more social media is able

995
01:02:32,600 --> 01:02:36,480
Speaker 1: to um kind of really break them down and point

996
01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,680
Speaker 1: out the ways in which they are UH, in which

997
01:02:39,680 --> 01:02:43,160
Speaker 1: they overlap with a lot of other issues, and the

998
01:02:43,200 --> 01:02:45,360
Speaker 1: ways in which they aren't black and white and they

999
01:02:45,360 --> 01:02:49,280
Speaker 1: aren't cut and dry, they have all these other elements. UM.

1000
01:02:49,320 --> 01:02:52,680
Speaker 1: And so yeah, I mean, I again, like this might

1001
01:02:52,680 --> 01:02:54,560
Speaker 1: just be me being optimistic, but I have a lot

1002
01:02:54,600 --> 01:02:59,320
Speaker 1: of faith in UH in social media to kind of

1003
01:02:59,360 --> 01:03:05,480
Speaker 1: make very big, monumental conversations very accessible and very legible

1004
01:03:05,800 --> 01:03:07,960
Speaker 1: to people who might even be coming to them for

1005
01:03:08,000 --> 01:03:10,200
Speaker 1: the very first time. Yeah, I mean, I think that's

1006
01:03:10,200 --> 01:03:13,440
Speaker 1: something that we've seen to running the spinty social media.

1007
01:03:13,480 --> 01:03:17,960
Speaker 1: It's beautiful to watch people, whether it's around issues of

1008
01:03:18,000 --> 01:03:23,960
Speaker 1: sexuality or gender, race, ethnicity, you know, socio economics be

1009
01:03:24,080 --> 01:03:26,160
Speaker 1: able to form these communities and find each other and

1010
01:03:26,200 --> 01:03:31,240
Speaker 1: talk and and and create movements. But I am curious

1011
01:03:31,280 --> 01:03:34,280
Speaker 1: about is there sort of like an in group fallacy

1012
01:03:34,320 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 1: going on? Almost because at the same time that we're

1013
01:03:36,480 --> 01:03:39,960
Speaker 1: seeing all of these beautiful movements and people coalescing online

1014
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:44,760
Speaker 1: and in real life, we're also seeing reproductive rights tipped away.

1015
01:03:44,800 --> 01:03:48,840
Speaker 1: We're seeing trans rights and LGBT rights tipped away with

1016
01:03:48,880 --> 01:03:51,320
Speaker 1: things like the North Carolina bathroom bill. So like, how

1017
01:03:51,360 --> 01:03:56,360
Speaker 1: are those two things, these two things are coexisting. Yeah,

1018
01:03:56,600 --> 01:04:00,000
Speaker 1: I mean, and that's definitely a good point. I think. Um,

1019
01:04:00,120 --> 01:04:04,440
Speaker 1: I see these things kind of happening in part because

1020
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:07,920
Speaker 1: there is such a groundswell of movement that people are panicking.

1021
01:04:08,920 --> 01:04:14,200
Speaker 1: We are as a society extremely prone to doing this

1022
01:04:14,320 --> 01:04:18,240
Speaker 1: kind of zero something where we assume that any gains

1023
01:04:18,320 --> 01:04:21,120
Speaker 1: for one group mean a loss for the other group.

1024
01:04:21,720 --> 01:04:25,240
Speaker 1: And so I mean, I think so much of the

1025
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:30,560
Speaker 1: panic and the fear um around things like trans rights

1026
01:04:31,200 --> 01:04:35,760
Speaker 1: and uh, women's reproductive autonomy are in part or result

1027
01:04:36,400 --> 01:04:38,920
Speaker 1: of the gains that have happened and the fact that

1028
01:04:38,960 --> 01:04:42,400
Speaker 1: we do see much more more of a signal boost

1029
01:04:42,440 --> 01:04:47,640
Speaker 1: for these things. Um. Yeah, this question came to us

1030
01:04:47,880 --> 01:04:53,480
Speaker 1: from basically the leader of Atlanta's Lady Fest, Chelsea, and

1031
01:04:53,720 --> 01:04:55,520
Speaker 1: she she brought up some really good points. She said,

1032
01:04:55,520 --> 01:04:57,920
Speaker 1: you know, there are a lot of women's centric events

1033
01:04:57,960 --> 01:05:02,640
Speaker 1: that happen like lady Fest. They're all women, they celebrate women.

1034
01:05:03,040 --> 01:05:05,320
Speaker 1: But she was saying that she felt really torn because

1035
01:05:05,360 --> 01:05:07,400
Speaker 1: here she is spending a lot of time and money

1036
01:05:07,400 --> 01:05:11,520
Speaker 1: helping Ladyfest happen and helping it blossom and featuring women,

1037
01:05:12,280 --> 01:05:14,800
Speaker 1: and that yes, it is important to have these spaces.

1038
01:05:14,840 --> 01:05:19,720
Speaker 1: But the thing is if women are celebrated just once

1039
01:05:19,760 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 1: a month, but the rest of the year, she says,

1040
01:05:22,240 --> 01:05:26,160
Speaker 1: it's still dude Fest every day. How do we tackle this?

1041
01:05:26,320 --> 01:05:29,400
Speaker 1: How do we bring more women into the everyday discussion.

1042
01:05:30,040 --> 01:05:31,760
Speaker 1: That's such a good question. I mean, that's such a

1043
01:05:32,640 --> 01:05:34,560
Speaker 1: I mean, it's it's kind of evergreen. I mean I

1044
01:05:34,600 --> 01:05:39,479
Speaker 1: remember in the late nine um going to Lili Fair

1045
01:05:39,720 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: and really sort of grappling with the idea of like,

1046
01:05:42,400 --> 01:05:46,080
Speaker 1: what does it mean that this festival is now letting

1047
01:05:46,120 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: all these other like total sausage party and music festivals

1048
01:05:49,960 --> 01:05:55,080
Speaker 1: essentially off the hook for having any female participation. Um

1049
01:05:55,640 --> 01:05:57,560
Speaker 1: And and you know, what does it mean too that

1050
01:05:57,640 --> 01:06:01,240
Speaker 1: it's kind of been essentializing the idea of what kind

1051
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,960
Speaker 1: of music women make, um, and what kind of art

1052
01:06:03,960 --> 01:06:05,760
Speaker 1: they make and what kind of art is appealing to

1053
01:06:05,760 --> 01:06:09,480
Speaker 1: other women. UM. So I think that's it's it's such

1054
01:06:09,520 --> 01:06:12,320
Speaker 1: a good question. It's such a complicated question, and frankly,

1055
01:06:12,760 --> 01:06:16,480
Speaker 1: I'm not really sure how to answer it, um, you know,

1056
01:06:16,520 --> 01:06:18,560
Speaker 1: except to say that I think it's possible to sort

1057
01:06:18,600 --> 01:06:23,480
Speaker 1: of simultaneously do this work of saying, you know, it's

1058
01:06:23,520 --> 01:06:29,040
Speaker 1: important to to celebrate um, you know, women, people who

1059
01:06:29,120 --> 01:06:33,600
Speaker 1: identify as women, the work they do, them, the importance

1060
01:06:33,640 --> 01:06:37,320
Speaker 1: of of having that space for them, and also really

1061
01:06:37,320 --> 01:06:41,240
Speaker 1: talk about what it what it means to sort of

1062
01:06:41,280 --> 01:06:44,680
Speaker 1: segment out and does that go against a sort of

1063
01:06:44,800 --> 01:06:51,240
Speaker 1: larger project of of really building equity for everyone in

1064
01:06:51,280 --> 01:06:55,640
Speaker 1: these spaces. Well, that's all the time that we have

1065
01:06:55,960 --> 01:06:58,960
Speaker 1: for questions. Although can I ask one final quick questions?

1066
01:06:59,520 --> 01:07:03,880
Speaker 1: You're things I'm like a high note. Um And since

1067
01:07:04,040 --> 01:07:07,800
Speaker 1: don't let it be about Hillary Clinton, please, It's like

1068
01:07:07,840 --> 01:07:13,400
Speaker 1: really waiting for that. No. I wanted to know since

1069
01:07:13,840 --> 01:07:17,560
Speaker 1: pop culture is your jam, I wanted. I was wondering

1070
01:07:17,560 --> 01:07:19,680
Speaker 1: if you have any pop culture shoutouts, like what what

1071
01:07:19,760 --> 01:07:23,560
Speaker 1: are your favorite things happening right now that you love?

1072
01:07:23,640 --> 01:07:25,400
Speaker 1: Oh my god, this is this question where like I

1073
01:07:25,400 --> 01:07:27,720
Speaker 1: need to prepare a list because like everything flies out

1074
01:07:27,720 --> 01:07:30,120
Speaker 1: of my head. It's like going to the grocery store

1075
01:07:30,120 --> 01:07:34,920
Speaker 1: without a list, just like walking out with every day. Um.

1076
01:07:34,960 --> 01:07:37,520
Speaker 1: I know there's there's so much that I've loved in

1077
01:07:37,560 --> 01:07:41,040
Speaker 1: the past year, and I will say that it's mostly

1078
01:07:41,080 --> 01:07:45,440
Speaker 1: TV related because, um, I work a ton and I

1079
01:07:45,480 --> 01:07:47,600
Speaker 1: have a child, so I rarely leave my house to

1080
01:07:47,680 --> 01:07:51,920
Speaker 1: be entertained. Uh So, like a ton of Netflix stuff

1081
01:07:51,960 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 1: like Master of None I just loved. I'm so excited

1082
01:07:55,240 --> 01:07:57,480
Speaker 1: for it. I would watch like seven seasons like right

1083
01:07:57,480 --> 01:08:01,880
Speaker 1: in a row. Um. And I know people are sort

1084
01:08:01,880 --> 01:08:04,400
Speaker 1: of mixed on Unbreakable Kimmy Schmidt, but I sort of

1085
01:08:04,480 --> 01:08:07,560
Speaker 1: love it. I just think it's so um it's just

1086
01:08:07,600 --> 01:08:12,360
Speaker 1: so fast paced, and it's so kind of rapid fire referential,

1087
01:08:12,400 --> 01:08:15,120
Speaker 1: and I think it really rewards people who are kind

1088
01:08:15,160 --> 01:08:20,880
Speaker 1: of like me, pop culture obsessives. Um, I am I've

1089
01:08:20,880 --> 01:08:24,080
Speaker 1: been obsessed with Game of Thrones since the start, and

1090
01:08:24,080 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 1: I feel like that obsession is really starting to pay

1091
01:08:26,280 --> 01:08:28,800
Speaker 1: off this season. And I'm not like finally broken away

1092
01:08:28,800 --> 01:08:33,720
Speaker 1: from the books. Yeah, like no, I'm not gonna like

1093
01:08:33,880 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: spoil anything, but it's getting real. It's good. Um yeah,

1094
01:08:39,960 --> 01:08:43,519
Speaker 1: and uh and you know it's funny because this is

1095
01:08:43,560 --> 01:08:46,880
Speaker 1: not always like a feminist thing, but as a magazine

1096
01:08:46,920 --> 01:08:49,479
Speaker 1: geek from way back and as someone who like truly

1097
01:08:49,560 --> 01:08:53,240
Speaker 1: loves print media, I just I love the fact that

1098
01:08:53,400 --> 01:08:58,040
Speaker 1: magazines are kind of this uh, they've become kind of

1099
01:08:58,080 --> 01:09:03,080
Speaker 1: this like niche property that really reward again people who

1100
01:09:03,120 --> 01:09:06,160
Speaker 1: are obsessives and who are kind of collectors. Like It's no,

1101
01:09:06,280 --> 01:09:08,840
Speaker 1: it no longer feels like a disposable medium. It feels

1102
01:09:08,840 --> 01:09:14,439
Speaker 1: like this very special um, this very special place of

1103
01:09:14,439 --> 01:09:20,280
Speaker 1: of discovery. And uh yeah, so that little feedback, I

1104
01:09:20,280 --> 01:09:22,160
Speaker 1: think that feedback gives me, like y'all get all the

1105
01:09:24,080 --> 01:09:27,559
Speaker 1: um so any thank you again so much for talking

1106
01:09:27,600 --> 01:09:31,760
Speaker 1: to and also thank you for writing this book. Seriously,

1107
01:09:32,000 --> 01:09:37,080
Speaker 1: it is fantastic, funny, well researched, so accessible. I highly

1108
01:09:37,120 --> 01:09:40,799
Speaker 1: recommend it. Um, we were feminists once back at the table,

1109
01:09:55,800 --> 01:09:59,000
Speaker 1: so again we just want to thank Andy Seisler so much,

1110
01:09:59,160 --> 01:10:02,080
Speaker 1: not only for talking to us at Lady Fest, but

1111
01:10:02,200 --> 01:10:06,400
Speaker 1: also for all the work that she's done, um, not

1112
01:10:06,479 --> 01:10:11,240
Speaker 1: only with building Bitch, but also with being a voice

1113
01:10:11,400 --> 01:10:15,320
Speaker 1: in her own right for feminism today. Um, and of

1114
01:10:15,320 --> 01:10:18,479
Speaker 1: course for writing her newest book, We Were Feminists Once,

1115
01:10:18,479 --> 01:10:21,599
Speaker 1: which we do highly recommend that you check out. And

1116
01:10:21,760 --> 01:10:24,000
Speaker 1: while you're at it, head on over to Bitch media

1117
01:10:24,120 --> 01:10:30,480
Speaker 1: dot org, where you can find all sorts of great articles,

1118
01:10:30,800 --> 01:10:35,280
Speaker 1: podcast magazines that you can can bine and hold in

1119
01:10:35,320 --> 01:10:37,559
Speaker 1: your hands. I'm a subscriber to Bitch magazine, so I

1120
01:10:37,560 --> 01:10:40,679
Speaker 1: can personally attest to how fantastic it is to open

1121
01:10:40,680 --> 01:10:44,120
Speaker 1: my mailbox and have a physical copy of Bitch in

1122
01:10:44,160 --> 01:10:48,400
Speaker 1: my hand and know that I'm supporting feminist, independent media

1123
01:10:48,439 --> 01:10:51,680
Speaker 1: because that's so important. I agree, and I want to

1124
01:10:51,760 --> 01:10:55,840
Speaker 1: now hear from listeners who do support independent feminist media

1125
01:10:55,840 --> 01:10:59,640
Speaker 1: out there. Where are our Bitch fans are Bitch subscribers?

1126
01:11:00,280 --> 01:11:03,160
Speaker 1: Have you already read Andy Seisler's book? What do you

1127
01:11:03,200 --> 01:11:05,160
Speaker 1: think about it? And do you have anything to add

1128
01:11:05,400 --> 01:11:08,439
Speaker 1: to the fabulous insight that Andy gave us during that interview?

1129
01:11:08,520 --> 01:11:10,800
Speaker 1: Let us know mom stuff at how Stuff Works dot

1130
01:11:10,800 --> 01:11:13,360
Speaker 1: com is our email address. You can also tweet us

1131
01:11:13,360 --> 01:11:16,639
Speaker 1: at mom Stuff podcasts, or messages on Facebook, and we've

1132
01:11:16,640 --> 01:11:19,559
Speaker 1: got a couple of messages to share with you right now.

1133
01:11:24,640 --> 01:11:26,799
Speaker 1: So I have a letter here from Toby in response

1134
01:11:26,880 --> 01:11:30,439
Speaker 1: to our wartime prostitution episode by the name of Buffer

1135
01:11:30,439 --> 01:11:33,719
Speaker 1: of Horrors. Uh. She said, I noticed that you kept

1136
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:36,880
Speaker 1: bringing up questions of whether the women involve are forced, coerced,

1137
01:11:36,880 --> 01:11:40,360
Speaker 1: economically coerced, or freely choosing their work. I'm glad to

1138
01:11:40,400 --> 01:11:42,960
Speaker 1: hear you recognizing the issues is not a simple yes

1139
01:11:43,040 --> 01:11:44,920
Speaker 1: or new question, and if there's a lot of gray

1140
01:11:44,960 --> 01:11:48,360
Speaker 1: area and how people experience doing sex work. However, this

1141
01:11:48,400 --> 01:11:51,040
Speaker 1: approach tends to create a subtle implication that all sex

1142
01:11:51,080 --> 01:11:54,160
Speaker 1: workers can be split into victims or empowered based on

1143
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:56,800
Speaker 1: whether sex work was their first choice career or their

1144
01:11:56,840 --> 01:12:00,200
Speaker 1: only choice. The reality is that regardless of how or

1145
01:12:00,240 --> 01:12:02,519
Speaker 1: why someone ends up working in the sex industry, it's

1146
01:12:02,560 --> 01:12:04,960
Speaker 1: often more important to look at what working conditions were

1147
01:12:05,000 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: like do you have the right to refuse a client?

1148
01:12:07,960 --> 01:12:09,760
Speaker 1: Are you paid well enough to take care of your

1149
01:12:09,760 --> 01:12:11,960
Speaker 1: needs even if you refuse a client? Can you take

1150
01:12:11,960 --> 01:12:13,800
Speaker 1: time off and still have a job to come back

1151
01:12:13,800 --> 01:12:16,080
Speaker 1: to do you have recourse against violence or do you

1152
01:12:16,120 --> 01:12:18,000
Speaker 1: get arrested when you go to the police for help.

1153
01:12:18,360 --> 01:12:20,360
Speaker 1: Do you have access to medical care for all your

1154
01:12:20,360 --> 01:12:22,840
Speaker 1: health needs or are you only given STI checks to

1155
01:12:22,880 --> 01:12:25,679
Speaker 1: protect the health of your clients. Do you have freedom

1156
01:12:25,720 --> 01:12:27,840
Speaker 1: of movement or will you get arrested when you enter

1157
01:12:27,920 --> 01:12:30,360
Speaker 1: or leave certain parts of a city. Many areas that

1158
01:12:30,400 --> 01:12:34,120
Speaker 1: temporarily legalized prostitution would create restrictions on what parts of

1159
01:12:34,160 --> 01:12:37,200
Speaker 1: town sex workers were allowed in, and today many cities

1160
01:12:37,240 --> 01:12:41,240
Speaker 1: continue this with their prostitution free zones. These are concrete

1161
01:12:41,240 --> 01:12:44,040
Speaker 1: issues that make a big impact on your experience of work.

1162
01:12:44,360 --> 01:12:46,439
Speaker 1: Even if someone likes their job as a sex worker,

1163
01:12:46,479 --> 01:12:48,880
Speaker 1: it's still pretty terrible to get kidnapped with all of

1164
01:12:48,920 --> 01:12:51,280
Speaker 1: your co workers and thrown on a boat for several

1165
01:12:51,280 --> 01:12:53,840
Speaker 1: months without the ability to leave or contact your friends

1166
01:12:53,840 --> 01:12:56,559
Speaker 1: and family who aren't there with you. And for those

1167
01:12:56,600 --> 01:12:58,920
Speaker 1: who hate their job in which they had other options,

1168
01:12:58,920 --> 01:13:01,360
Speaker 1: that still is really valuable to know you can report

1169
01:13:01,400 --> 01:13:04,160
Speaker 1: a client for assaulting you without getting arrested, and that

1170
01:13:04,240 --> 01:13:06,280
Speaker 1: you won't get arrested if you try to leave the

1171
01:13:06,320 --> 01:13:10,080
Speaker 1: red light district in your town. All valuable perspectives, So

1172
01:13:10,120 --> 01:13:12,479
Speaker 1: thank you Toby so I've got a letter here from

1173
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:15,960
Speaker 1: Bird on our episode about the mis gendering of HIV

1174
01:13:16,800 --> 01:13:19,799
Speaker 1: and Bird rights, your description of the New York Times

1175
01:13:19,880 --> 01:13:24,360
Speaker 1: and quote unquote cancer was incorrect. Compose a sarcoma is

1176
01:13:24,560 --> 01:13:29,040
Speaker 1: cancer typically found in late stage HIV and AIDS infections,

1177
01:13:29,760 --> 01:13:32,559
Speaker 1: as the body can no longer fight off infection. It

1178
01:13:32,640 --> 01:13:36,400
Speaker 1: leaves tell tale purple lesions all over the body. K

1179
01:13:36,800 --> 01:13:40,840
Speaker 1: S was prevalent before anti retroviral treatments were accessible, and

1180
01:13:40,840 --> 01:13:44,000
Speaker 1: it was a telltale sign of an HIV infection. I

1181
01:13:44,000 --> 01:13:47,000
Speaker 1: work in a dermatology clinic in Beverly Hills and recently

1182
01:13:47,080 --> 01:13:50,880
Speaker 1: we had a young, affluent, white, homosexual male patient come

1183
01:13:50,920 --> 01:13:55,360
Speaker 1: in with KS and molascum and it was heartbreaking. The

1184
01:13:55,360 --> 01:13:58,519
Speaker 1: physician I work for said, that's not how we diagnosed

1185
01:13:58,560 --> 01:14:02,080
Speaker 1: AIDS anymore. That's how it was in the eighties. KS

1186
01:14:02,240 --> 01:14:04,479
Speaker 1: is extremely rare now, but at one time it was

1187
01:14:04,520 --> 01:14:08,800
Speaker 1: a visual marker of infection. The patient refused testing from

1188
01:14:08,840 --> 01:14:11,640
Speaker 1: his primary care physician, stating he was taking care of

1189
01:14:11,640 --> 01:14:15,519
Speaker 1: it somewhere else, or was getting homeopathic testing. I can't

1190
01:14:15,560 --> 01:14:18,679
Speaker 1: remember exactly. I was struck by this interaction and felt

1191
01:14:18,720 --> 01:14:21,160
Speaker 1: so powerless. It prompted me to speak with my mom

1192
01:14:21,240 --> 01:14:24,960
Speaker 1: regarding her experience as an infectious disease physician in the

1193
01:14:25,040 --> 01:14:28,599
Speaker 1: nineteen eighties. A very interesting conversation, and I'm sure she'd

1194
01:14:28,640 --> 01:14:30,599
Speaker 1: be willing to speak with you all if you wanted.

1195
01:14:31,360 --> 01:14:33,280
Speaker 1: I can't find a YouTube clip, but urge you all

1196
01:14:33,320 --> 01:14:36,280
Speaker 1: to watch Angels in America, as KS is mentioned in

1197
01:14:36,280 --> 01:14:39,880
Speaker 1: a strikingly poignant line, the wine dark kiss of the

1198
01:14:39,960 --> 01:14:44,040
Speaker 1: Angel of Death. Well, thank you so much for that correction, Bird,

1199
01:14:44,160 --> 01:14:47,439
Speaker 1: and thanks so much to everyone who has written into us.

1200
01:14:47,720 --> 01:14:50,400
Speaker 1: Mom Stuff at how stuff works dot com is our

1201
01:14:50,439 --> 01:14:52,880
Speaker 1: email address, and for links to all of our social

1202
01:14:52,920 --> 01:14:56,640
Speaker 1: media as well as all of our blogs, videos, and podcasts,

1203
01:14:56,960 --> 01:15:05,000
Speaker 1: head on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com.

1204
01:15:05,040 --> 01:15:07,559
Speaker 1: For more on this and thousands of other topics, visit

1205
01:15:07,600 --> 01:15:16,480
Speaker 1: how stuff works dot com.