WEBVTT - #540 Jason Flom with Joe Berlinger on the West Memphis 3 0:00:05.160 --> 0:00:07.600 Last time we talked about the West Memphis Three, we 0:00:07.680 --> 0:00:12.240 interviewed documentarian Joe Burlinger about his experience filming the victim's 0:00:12.320 --> 0:00:16.520 families and the three suspected killers before and during the trial, 0:00:17.120 --> 0:00:20.840 and how his realization of their innocence changed the direction 0:00:21.079 --> 0:00:24.840 of his life's work. To add greater context in our episode, 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.000 we edited in excerpts from our previous interviews with Jason 0:00:28.040 --> 0:00:31.600 Baldwin and Damian Eccles of the West Memphis Three, who 0:00:31.680 --> 0:00:35.000 to recap, had been released on an Alfred plea along 0:00:35.040 --> 0:00:38.760 with Jesse Miskale, were all excluded from some crime scene 0:00:38.800 --> 0:00:42.760 evidence by later DNA testing, and one hair sample also 0:00:42.880 --> 0:00:46.640 included one of the victim's stepfathers, but the West Memphis 0:00:46.720 --> 0:00:49.720 Three are still fighting to clear their names. A twenty 0:00:49.800 --> 0:00:53.120 twenty one Arkansas law allowed for new DNA testing with 0:00:53.280 --> 0:00:56.640 more modern methodologies, and when they sought this testing, the 0:00:56.720 --> 0:00:59.840 state represented in court that all crime scene evidence had 0:00:59.880 --> 0:01:04.240 been destroyed, But in the same year a box belonging 0:01:04.280 --> 0:01:07.600 to the West Memphis Police Department was located and it 0:01:07.720 --> 0:01:12.040 held some missing evidence from their case, including the shoelaces 0:01:12.080 --> 0:01:14.720 that had been used to bind the three young victims, 0:01:15.120 --> 0:01:17.920 as well as a hare that might match the long 0:01:18.080 --> 0:01:23.080 ignored alternative suspect from the po Jangles restaurant twenty twenty two. 0:01:23.080 --> 0:01:26.199 Denial of further testing was reversed in twenty twenty four, 0:01:26.560 --> 0:01:30.440 and after additional proceedings, testing is finally going to move forward, 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:36.240 hopefully towards the real perpetrator or perpetrators of this horrible crime. Now, 0:01:36.360 --> 0:01:40.360 without any further ado, here's our interview mashup with Joe 0:01:40.400 --> 0:01:42.520 Burlinger and the West Memphis Three. 0:01:45.120 --> 0:01:49.760 In May nineteen ninety three, three young Arkansas boys Stevie Branch, 0:01:49.960 --> 0:01:53.240 Christopher Byers, and Michael Moore went missing. 0:01:52.960 --> 0:01:55.480 Three little cub scouts, hog tied and left in an 0:01:55.560 --> 0:01:56.600 Arkansas dis one. 0:01:56.560 --> 0:02:00.120 Of the most controversial legal cases in the state's history, 0:02:00.000 --> 0:02:02.440 they found the man guilty of murdering the eight year 0:02:02.480 --> 0:02:05.840 old boys back in nineteen ninety three, in what prosecutors 0:02:05.880 --> 0:02:09.000 at the time had called some sort of a satanic ritual. 0:02:09.080 --> 0:02:11.919 Celebrities fighting for the teen's release claimed the kids were 0:02:12.040 --> 0:02:15.920 railroaded because of their mumllets, dark clothes, and fascination with. 0:02:15.960 --> 0:02:18.800 The occult sticking killings that might have been part of 0:02:18.840 --> 0:02:23.200 a satanic ritual. Convicted murderers Jason Baldwin, Jesse mss Kelly, 0:02:23.280 --> 0:02:25.760 and Damian Eccles are now free men. 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:28.800 They spent seventeen years in prison for a crime that 0:02:28.880 --> 0:02:31.600 stunned dark and so West Memphis three would be allowed 0:02:31.639 --> 0:02:34.720 to walk out of prison, but prosecutors agreed to sign 0:02:34.720 --> 0:02:38.240 off on the deal only if the defendants would plead guilty. 0:02:38.400 --> 0:02:40.840 A long time on death row for something that you 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:44.440 insist you didn't do. There's always the possibility that the 0:02:44.480 --> 0:02:48.360 person that you're killing is asking this is wrongful conviction. 0:02:53.680 --> 0:02:55.920 Hey y'all, it's Maggie. I'm here to tell you about 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:57.960 a new show I've been working on for the past 0:02:58.200 --> 0:03:02.840 two years called Graves County. And it's an investigative series 0:03:02.919 --> 0:03:06.080 about the murder of a young mom in Kentucky and 0:03:06.440 --> 0:03:10.200 just how far our legal system will go in order 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:13.600 to find someone to blame. Here is the trailer for 0:03:13.680 --> 0:03:16.760 Graves County. 0:03:18.160 --> 0:03:21.000 All I know is what I've been told, and that's 0:03:21.000 --> 0:03:22.440 a half truth is a whole live. 0:03:23.240 --> 0:03:26.800 For almost a decade, the murder of an eighteen year 0:03:26.840 --> 0:03:30.840 old girl from a small town in Graves County, Kentucky, 0:03:31.200 --> 0:03:35.600 went unsolved until a local homemaker, a journalist, and a 0:03:35.600 --> 0:03:38.720 handful of girls came forward with a story. 0:03:39.040 --> 0:03:43.240 I'm telling you, we know, we know a story that 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:47.200 law enforcement used to convict six people, and that got 0:03:47.280 --> 0:03:49.920 the Citizen Investigator on national TV. 0:03:50.520 --> 0:03:54.760 Through sheer persistence and nerve, this Kentucky housewife helped give 0:03:55.040 --> 0:03:56.680 justice to Jessica Current. 0:03:57.360 --> 0:04:01.840 My name is Maggie Freeling. I'm a Pulitzer winning journalist producer, 0:04:02.400 --> 0:04:05.840 and I wouldn't be here if the truth were that 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:07.240 easy to find. 0:04:07.760 --> 0:04:09.280 I did not know her, and I did not kill 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:11.640 her or raid or burn or any of that other 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:12.720 stuff that y'all said it. 0:04:13.040 --> 0:04:15.000 They literally made me say that I took a match 0:04:15.040 --> 0:04:17.159 and struck and threw it on her. They made me 0:04:17.240 --> 0:04:21.680 say that I'm pore guests on her. 0:04:20.960 --> 0:04:25.000 From LoVa for Good. This is Graves County, a show 0:04:25.200 --> 0:04:28.640 about just how far our legal system will go in 0:04:28.839 --> 0:04:31.760 order to find someone to blame Marka. 0:04:31.800 --> 0:04:33.080 Y'all gotta work the hell up. 0:04:33.600 --> 0:04:38.880 Bad things happens to good people in small towns. 0:04:40.480 --> 0:04:43.440 Listen to Graves County in the Bone Valley Feed starting 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:47.919 September seventeenth, on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts or wherever 0:04:48.040 --> 0:04:51.280 you get your podcasts, and to binge. The entire season 0:04:51.320 --> 0:04:55.039 ad free subscribe to Lava for Good plus on Apple Podcasts. 0:05:01.920 --> 0:05:06.200 Welcome back to Wrongful Conviction today. I have a special 0:05:06.240 --> 0:05:08.200 show for you, and I think it's going to be 0:05:08.240 --> 0:05:12.120 a real treat because with me, I have a guy 0:05:12.200 --> 0:05:18.800 who has done profound work in film dealing with wrongful convictions. 0:05:19.040 --> 0:05:22.480 I'm super excited to have him here to share some 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.159 stories and some wisdom and his outlooks. So Joe Burlinger, 0:05:26.279 --> 0:05:27.520 Welcome to Wrongful Conviction. 0:05:27.600 --> 0:05:27.920 Jason. 0:05:27.960 --> 0:05:28.239 Thanks. 0:05:28.279 --> 0:05:30.279 I'm a big fan of the podcast and a fan 0:05:30.360 --> 0:05:32.320 of you, so I'm glad to be here. In fact, 0:05:32.320 --> 0:05:36.159 it amazes me that since I consider myself a music 0:05:36.160 --> 0:05:39.600 and wrongful conviction guy and you're amazing music and wrongful 0:05:39.640 --> 0:05:42.760 conviction guy, I'm amazed. We haven't met until recently, which 0:05:42.800 --> 0:05:45.120 is why this podcast came to be. We shared a 0:05:45.200 --> 0:05:46.120 nice dinner together. 0:05:46.440 --> 0:05:49.479 Yeah, we had dinner recently with Damian Eccles and Amanda 0:05:49.560 --> 0:05:52.359 Knox and so we really connected. And it's interesting because 0:05:52.400 --> 0:05:54.920 I do sort of music and justice. You do film 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:59.520 music injustice. And the thing that you've been known for 0:06:00.160 --> 0:06:03.560 is your movie about the West, Memphis three, because it 0:06:03.600 --> 0:06:06.400 was such an important not only such an important documentary, 0:06:06.400 --> 0:06:11.320 but also such an important moment in the changing of 0:06:11.400 --> 0:06:14.400 the perception of the American public and the worldwide public 0:06:14.720 --> 0:06:19.120 as to how these things happen. And I'm interested to 0:06:19.240 --> 0:06:21.720 know how did you because you know, you and I 0:06:21.800 --> 0:06:25.160 both were in criminal justice reform before it was sort 0:06:25.200 --> 0:06:28.200 of a thing, right, I mean, we were early adopters, 0:06:29.160 --> 0:06:31.480 and I like to say we were before it was cool, 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:34.800 but that sounds ridiculous, but anyway, true. Listen, I'm glad 0:06:34.839 --> 0:06:36.960 it's cool because we need more and more people. 0:06:37.040 --> 0:06:39.960 We didn't have enough storytellers shining a light on injustice 0:06:40.000 --> 0:06:42.760 and activists trying to change this miserable system we have. 0:06:42.960 --> 0:06:46.640 No we need an army. And so you made this 0:06:46.800 --> 0:06:50.599 remarkable Paradise Lost trilogy that I'm holding in my hand 0:06:50.680 --> 0:06:55.480 right now, which told the story of the three kids. 0:06:55.480 --> 0:06:59.200 And they were kids. They were teenagers, Damian Eccles, Jason Baldwin, 0:06:59.279 --> 0:07:07.640 and Jesse Miss who were persecuted, prosecuted, arrested, tried, convicted 0:07:08.080 --> 0:07:12.679 for one of the most gruesome and notorious triple murders 0:07:12.680 --> 0:07:14.920 in the history of the world. Yeah, from the three 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.720 eight year old boys that went missing in West Memphis, Arkansas, 0:07:18.120 --> 0:07:22.240 out riding their bikes and turned up in a riverbank, tortured, 0:07:22.320 --> 0:07:29.280 brutally assaulted, sexually mutilated, and of course dead. And how 0:07:29.280 --> 0:07:32.400 did it come to be that? And we'll get into 0:07:32.480 --> 0:07:35.880 how the wrong conviction happened, but how did you go 0:07:35.960 --> 0:07:39.560 from being a filmmaker to being this guy? And how 0:07:39.600 --> 0:07:41.000 were you made aware of this case? And how did 0:07:41.040 --> 0:07:43.720 you get involved? And boy, it's a good thing you did, 0:07:43.920 --> 0:07:45.520 or Damien would have been executed by now. 0:07:45.880 --> 0:07:48.400 Yeah, you know, it's amazing and thank you for all that. 0:07:48.400 --> 0:07:50.120 That's very kind of you to say, because you've also 0:07:50.160 --> 0:07:54.040 done amazing work, which I appreciate. You know, my first film, 0:07:54.040 --> 0:07:56.920 which I should say, Paradise Lost and Brothers Keeper were 0:07:56.960 --> 0:07:59.760 made with Bruce Sinofsky, who recently passed away. You know, 0:07:59.800 --> 0:08:02.720 so if I revert to the eyes, I always mean we. 0:08:03.640 --> 0:08:06.120 But you know we had made Brothers Keeper, which there 0:08:06.160 --> 0:08:08.400 was no sense of social justice behind the making of 0:08:08.400 --> 0:08:11.480 that movie. That was purely an aesthetic exercise to push 0:08:11.560 --> 0:08:14.920 the documentary form a little further. You know, there was 0:08:15.000 --> 0:08:18.120 a handful of filmmakers in the late eighties early nineties 0:08:18.120 --> 0:08:19.880 that were looking to expand what it means to be 0:08:19.920 --> 0:08:23.320 a documentary. Errol Morris did it with thin Blue Line. 0:08:23.800 --> 0:08:27.720 But his contribution, besides the wrongful conviction aspect, was you know, 0:08:27.760 --> 0:08:32.880 pushing recreations to a whole new level. Michael Moore was 0:08:32.960 --> 0:08:38.199 pushing documentary by you know, the filmmaker as on camera curmudgeon, 0:08:38.480 --> 0:08:41.560 you know, crusading for a social cause. That was new. 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.000 Morgan Spurlock then picked up that kind of thread in others. 0:08:45.160 --> 0:08:47.280 What we were trying to do with Brothers Keeper was 0:08:47.320 --> 0:08:50.160 simply by using a murder trial because it has perfect 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:53.800 dramatic structure. Is to take the documentary and create a 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:56.960 just a film that feels like a narrative film because 0:08:56.960 --> 0:08:59.120 of how it shot, how it's edited, how it looks, 0:08:59.120 --> 0:09:02.000 how it structured, and to push the documentary form. I 0:09:02.040 --> 0:09:04.880 had no interest in social justice, no interest in wrongful 0:09:05.080 --> 0:09:07.600 I didn't even know wrongful convictions took place back then. 0:09:08.040 --> 0:09:10.480 I was very naive about the justice system. And Brother's 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:13.920 Keeper was very successful. And so Sheila Nevians from HBO 0:09:14.360 --> 0:09:17.320 came a calling. You know, she was until very recently 0:09:17.360 --> 0:09:20.559 the head of documentaries at HBO for three decades. And 0:09:20.600 --> 0:09:23.720 if I had to pick one person responsible for expanding 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:26.760 the form to what it is today, Sheila would be 0:09:26.800 --> 0:09:31.160 that woman. But she also likes salacious material, and so 0:09:31.200 --> 0:09:35.440 she read this story about three devil worshiping teens who 0:09:35.440 --> 0:09:39.680 were just been arrested for these horrible crimes, and she 0:09:39.800 --> 0:09:43.680 wanted a satanic kids killing kids movie because it seemed 0:09:43.720 --> 0:09:47.679 like that was the case. So one week after the 0:09:47.840 --> 0:09:52.040 arrests of the three. Of course they weren't called the 0:09:52.120 --> 0:09:54.679 West Memphis three back then, they were these rotten teenagers 0:09:54.679 --> 0:09:58.480 accused of these horrible crimes. We went down to West Memphis, Arkansas, 0:09:58.559 --> 0:10:01.400 in June of ninety three, thinking we were making a 0:10:01.440 --> 0:10:04.920 film about kids killing kids. All the press was saying 0:10:04.920 --> 0:10:08.880 they were guilty Jesse miss Kelly's confession without any context. 0:10:08.960 --> 0:10:12.880 The multiple statements over time were reduced to a digestible 0:10:12.960 --> 0:10:17.040 paragraph without context, published in the local paper. So we 0:10:17.440 --> 0:10:20.600 thought there was a confession. You know, the prosecution and 0:10:20.640 --> 0:10:23.280 the police were saying at press conferences on a scale 0:10:23.320 --> 0:10:26.840 of one to ten, this is an eleven. I was 0:10:26.880 --> 0:10:29.320 going down as a filmmaker, coming off of a really 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:32.400 great experience on my first film of pushing the form 0:10:32.440 --> 0:10:35.560 of documentary, but no idea of social justice. 0:10:35.640 --> 0:10:36.240 We go down. 0:10:36.400 --> 0:10:38.960 We embed with the families of the victims. Mainly the 0:10:39.040 --> 0:10:41.720 trial is still seven months away. For the first three 0:10:41.720 --> 0:10:43.720 months of the project, we really spent time with the 0:10:43.720 --> 0:10:45.839 families of the victims, and of course they hated these 0:10:45.880 --> 0:10:48.720 guys and thought they were, you know, the devil, and 0:10:48.800 --> 0:10:50.480 we had no reason to believe otherwise. 0:10:52.200 --> 0:10:55.160 On season seven of Wrongful Conviction, on the fifth episode, 0:10:55.200 --> 0:10:59.880 I interviewed Damien eccles. Here's an excerpt. We were an outcast, right, 0:11:00.559 --> 0:11:05.360 and there were these very small minded people around who 0:11:05.840 --> 0:11:09.680 sort of came to this instinctual call it conclusion that 0:11:09.800 --> 0:11:12.120 it must be the weird kid, right, it must be 0:11:12.200 --> 0:11:14.320 the kid that wears black and listens to heavy metal. 0:11:14.840 --> 0:11:16.800 And this was during the Satanic Panic as well. Right 0:11:17.000 --> 0:11:19.280 back then, for those of you who are old enough 0:11:19.280 --> 0:11:21.960 to remember, in the early nineties, there was this very 0:11:22.000 --> 0:11:24.240 strange thing that was going on in America with rumors 0:11:24.240 --> 0:11:25.800 of Satanic cults and stuff like that. None of them 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:27.400 turned out to be true. But that's beside the point. 0:11:27.640 --> 0:11:30.679 So what happened for me my entire life, The thing 0:11:30.720 --> 0:11:32.760 that has been most important to me, that I love 0:11:32.800 --> 0:11:34.840 the most, that my life always sort of revolved around, 0:11:35.120 --> 0:11:38.880 was Western hermeticism ceremonial magic. All the way back from 0:11:38.880 --> 0:11:43.320 when I was a child but I lived in an 0:11:43.800 --> 0:11:47.880 incredibly right wing fundamentalist town where I mean, there were 0:11:48.160 --> 0:11:51.079 places in this town where you come to a four 0:11:51.160 --> 0:11:53.520 corner stop and on all four corners of the street 0:11:53.520 --> 0:11:54.240 will be churches. 0:11:54.400 --> 0:11:55.280 It's like Starbucks. 0:11:55.280 --> 0:11:57.559 Now, yeah, that's exactly what it was like. And if 0:11:57.600 --> 0:12:01.280 you didn't belong to, you know, one of these mainstream 0:12:01.679 --> 0:12:06.199 for that area, mainstream fundamentalist religions, you were automatically. 0:12:05.640 --> 0:12:07.280 Viewed as suspicious. 0:12:07.679 --> 0:12:08.480 You were Satanic. 0:12:08.800 --> 0:12:09.520 That's what they thought. 0:12:09.559 --> 0:12:11.400 And it didn't matter if you were a Buddhist or 0:12:11.400 --> 0:12:14.080 a Hindu or something like that. You're still satanic. You 0:12:14.200 --> 0:12:17.280 just don't know you're a Satanist. You're just being tricked 0:12:17.320 --> 0:12:19.520 by the devil into thinking there's some other religion. 0:12:20.080 --> 0:12:20.280 You know. 0:12:20.480 --> 0:12:24.240 The fact that I actually did love ceremonial magic, and 0:12:24.280 --> 0:12:26.439 that's been one of their things that you know, they 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:29.480 harp on forever that that is Satanism. So that was 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:31.320 a huge part of what made them focus on me 0:12:31.400 --> 0:12:33.280 as well. You know, that was what they thought made 0:12:33.280 --> 0:12:36.040 me a freak. They think, automatically, you're a Satanist. It 0:12:36.040 --> 0:12:38.200 would take a Satanist to commit a crime like this. 0:12:39.200 --> 0:12:41.600 Stick all those things together and they didn't even look 0:12:41.640 --> 0:12:42.840 for anybody or anything else. 0:12:43.240 --> 0:12:46.920 So in this case, they focused on you, and then 0:12:46.960 --> 0:12:49.320 they had to find a way to get to you, 0:12:49.440 --> 0:12:53.240 right because there was no evidence connecting you, no, So 0:12:53.360 --> 0:12:57.160 they found a way, and that way was Jesse Mscally exactly. 0:12:57.640 --> 0:13:01.640 So they originally sort of tricked into confessing and he 0:13:01.640 --> 0:13:04.160 immediately recanted after he confessed. 0:13:04.640 --> 0:13:08.720 Of somewhere between seventy and seventy two, and they interrogated him. 0:13:09.320 --> 0:13:11.200 I can't remember exactly how many hours it was. It 0:13:11.240 --> 0:13:14.600 was something like between twelve and fourteen hours. And they're 0:13:14.679 --> 0:13:18.240 tilling this guy who has an IQ that's way way 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:20.280 below normal. They're telling him things like, you know, just 0:13:20.679 --> 0:13:22.240 tell us what we want to know and we'll let 0:13:22.280 --> 0:13:24.520 you go home. So they finally get this guy to confess, 0:13:24.720 --> 0:13:27.000 and he can't get anything about the crime scene, right 0:13:27.040 --> 0:13:29.400 because he wasn't actually there, so he didn't know anything. 0:13:30.440 --> 0:13:31.080 They didn't care. 0:13:31.320 --> 0:13:33.000 The only thing they cared about was the fact that 0:13:33.000 --> 0:13:34.079 they got him to say yes. 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.600 And we also know, Damien, that people who are most 0:13:36.600 --> 0:13:39.760 susceptible to this are adolescents. We now know that the 0:13:39.800 --> 0:13:42.480 human brain isn't fully formed until you're twenty five. He 0:13:42.640 --> 0:13:46.200 was sixteen, right seventeen, and with his low IQ, he 0:13:46.360 --> 0:13:50.360 was totally outmatched, overwhelmed, and probably after twelve to fourteen 0:13:50.400 --> 0:13:53.600 hours he would have confessed to know anything killing Abraham 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:56.800 Lincoln exactly, I mean, just to go home. So he 0:13:56.920 --> 0:13:59.880 implicated you and Jason. So Jason was sort of your 0:14:00.000 --> 0:14:02.960 one and best and pretty much only friend at the time, right, 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.480 And he was just physical appearances, he didn't have the 0:14:06.520 --> 0:14:09.040 same stigma that you did, right. He was sort of 0:14:09.080 --> 0:14:12.839 just an average looking kid, very young looking, must have 0:14:12.840 --> 0:14:16.080 weighed one hundred pounds or less. Didn't look like a killer, right, 0:14:16.240 --> 0:14:18.920 But to them you did exactly. And he got caught 0:14:18.960 --> 0:14:20.760 up in all of this too, yep, just because he 0:14:20.840 --> 0:14:25.800 knew me, right, unbelievable. On season two of Wrongful Conviction, 0:14:26.080 --> 0:14:29.400 Episode eight, I interviewed Jason Baldwin. Here's what he had 0:14:29.440 --> 0:14:30.440 to say. 0:14:30.760 --> 0:14:34.120 And so when the police came, honestly, it didn't really 0:14:34.160 --> 0:14:36.160 scare me or alarm me, because I figured they were 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.960 going everywhere. I figured it was door to door, you know, 0:14:39.040 --> 0:14:41.480 that they were talking to everybody they could, you know, 0:14:41.880 --> 0:14:44.640 And to me that made sense, you know, that was logical. 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:47.760 But what I didn't know that they were targeting us. 0:14:48.000 --> 0:14:52.320 So now everything goes completely haywire and you guys get arrested. 0:14:52.440 --> 0:14:56.040 Correct, They mugshot in me, But when they fingerprinted me, 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:59.240 they didn't stop there. They took a fingerprint, They took 0:14:59.280 --> 0:15:04.040 an entire hand impression. They took my entire footprints, right, 0:15:04.400 --> 0:15:06.240 and then they took me to the hospital and they 0:15:06.240 --> 0:15:10.760 took hair samples, they took saliva samples, they took blood samples. 0:15:11.120 --> 0:15:13.360 When they were taking these samples from me, it gave 0:15:13.440 --> 0:15:16.800 me hope because I thought, Okay, whoever committed this crime, 0:15:17.040 --> 0:15:20.360 they've left something for the police to compare my samples to, right, 0:15:20.720 --> 0:15:23.400 and so that's where my hope was. And now at 0:15:23.400 --> 0:15:26.600 this point I had already been engaged with the police, 0:15:26.640 --> 0:15:28.640 and they had asked me, you know, questions and stuff, 0:15:28.640 --> 0:15:30.720 and I told them where I was at, and they 0:15:30.880 --> 0:15:35.760 absolutely refused the truth. They kept telling me, no, we've 0:15:35.760 --> 0:15:39.280 got another story. Your friend has told us that you 0:15:39.320 --> 0:15:41.280 have done this and that what you're telling us is 0:15:41.320 --> 0:15:43.480 not true. I'm like, well, who is this friend? And 0:15:43.520 --> 0:15:46.400 they refused to tell me. The boys' bodies were found 0:15:46.400 --> 0:15:49.920 May the sixth, we were arrested. Jesse Muskelli gave the 0:15:49.920 --> 0:15:52.360 false confession on June third, But what many people have 0:15:52.480 --> 0:15:55.760 not really noticed it. On May the fifteenth, just a 0:15:55.880 --> 0:15:58.600 couple of weeks after the boys' bodies were found, Jesse 0:15:58.920 --> 0:16:01.520 went to the police with another friend because there was 0:16:01.560 --> 0:16:05.400 a tip line and a reward offered out for any 0:16:05.440 --> 0:16:08.240 information on who may have committed this crime. Now, Jesse 0:16:08.600 --> 0:16:11.760 did not know who committed his crime, but he wanted 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:14.680 the reward money. He was imagining the brand new truck 0:16:14.720 --> 0:16:16.880 he could buy his father and things like that. So 0:16:17.000 --> 0:16:19.640 him and another kid out of his trailer park went 0:16:19.680 --> 0:16:22.840 to the police and said, there's this suspicious guy in 0:16:22.880 --> 0:16:25.560 the town that you know, you need to check out. 0:16:25.600 --> 0:16:28.440 And I don't know exactly what all he told them 0:16:28.480 --> 0:16:31.480 about this guy or whatever, but they ended up telling him, Jesse, 0:16:31.600 --> 0:16:34.120 you need to come back with a more believable story 0:16:34.160 --> 0:16:38.040 than that. Right, a few weeks go by, now they're 0:16:38.120 --> 0:16:41.920 saying they've got that believable story when he gives the 0:16:41.960 --> 0:16:43.880 false confession against Damian on me. 0:16:45.600 --> 0:16:49.320 Then we finally negotiated access. They were all in county 0:16:49.400 --> 0:16:53.600 jail awaiting trial, and somehow we taught you know, documentary 0:16:53.680 --> 0:16:55.800 was a little more naive in those days in terms 0:16:55.840 --> 0:16:58.920 of people's perceptions, and so we were able. I mean, 0:16:58.920 --> 0:17:01.080 one of the amazing things about Paradise losses just where 0:17:01.120 --> 0:17:03.520 we stuck our camera. I mean, we got tremendous access, 0:17:03.520 --> 0:17:06.080 which I don't think we'd ever get today, luckily for 0:17:06.359 --> 0:17:09.440 all involved. But we finally negotiated access to the West 0:17:09.520 --> 0:17:13.679 Memphis three and again they weren't called that then, and 0:17:13.760 --> 0:17:16.400 we did our first series of interviews, and I think 0:17:16.440 --> 0:17:19.919 I'm sitting down with killers, you know, horrible kids, wanting 0:17:19.920 --> 0:17:23.720 to understand how three teens could be so disaffected from 0:17:23.760 --> 0:17:26.600 life that they would they would do this horrible thing. 0:17:27.040 --> 0:17:29.840 There were some killings in the UK on railroad tracks 0:17:29.920 --> 0:17:32.960 just a few years before, you know, the Jamie Bolger 0:17:33.040 --> 0:17:35.320 case that actually I had tried to get access to 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:37.920 and make a film about. So my head is kids 0:17:38.000 --> 0:17:40.240 killing kids, it's a trend, let's make a film about it. 0:17:40.920 --> 0:17:43.840 Of course, the late eighties was the whole Satanic panic 0:17:43.880 --> 0:17:47.159 and Satanic hysteria. I was a young filmmaker and you know, 0:17:47.520 --> 0:17:50.520 didn't have any reason to think that wasn't necessarily true. 0:17:50.680 --> 0:17:53.520 So I went into this project. In the great irony 0:17:54.320 --> 0:17:57.320 is that, you know, two decades and three films later, 0:17:57.520 --> 0:18:01.280 this crusade to get these guys out. Started off as 0:18:01.520 --> 0:18:04.720 let's make a film about these rotten punks. So we 0:18:04.800 --> 0:18:09.640 sit down, we do our first series of interviews. Honestly, 0:18:09.720 --> 0:18:12.560 Damien was a little hard to read. I look back now, 0:18:12.640 --> 0:18:16.240 Obviously he was in shock. He didn't believe he would 0:18:16.280 --> 0:18:20.840 actually be convicted. Not to be judgmental, I mean, Damien's 0:18:20.880 --> 0:18:23.520 a hero to me, who's gone through the most amazing journey. 0:18:23.520 --> 0:18:26.200 But that first interview I couldn't quite tell with him. 0:18:26.280 --> 0:18:30.440 But the person who really just whatever sense of tapping 0:18:30.480 --> 0:18:33.320 into something that I had at the time. It was 0:18:33.359 --> 0:18:37.439 talking to Jason Baldwin where I just said, this doesn't 0:18:37.440 --> 0:18:40.480 add up four months before the trial, three months into 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.640 being embedded in West Memphis, Arkansas, because we spent literally 0:18:43.640 --> 0:18:48.400 seven months camping out there before the trial started. And 0:18:48.600 --> 0:18:50.919 it's not like a light bulb went off and I said, 0:18:51.359 --> 0:18:54.560 oh my god, they're innocent. But something didn't seem right. 0:18:54.720 --> 0:18:57.560 And so I remember calling Sheila Evans, who, again, to 0:18:57.600 --> 0:19:02.040 her credit, she's an amazing catalyst for what documentary has become, 0:19:02.119 --> 0:19:06.719 but she also likes, you know, salacious subject matter. And 0:19:06.760 --> 0:19:09.280 she had sent me down, or sent us down to 0:19:09.280 --> 0:19:13.040 make a film about teen Satanic Killers. So I remember 0:19:13.080 --> 0:19:15.520 picking up the phone calling her to let her know 0:19:15.680 --> 0:19:18.440 that something. You know, I'm not sure these guys are guilty, 0:19:18.480 --> 0:19:20.480 and I'm not sure the film is what you think 0:19:20.520 --> 0:19:23.800 it's going to be a little trepidacious that she was 0:19:23.880 --> 0:19:26.520 going to cancel the project, but I felt I had 0:19:26.560 --> 0:19:28.520 to tell her. You know, we're like four months in 0:19:28.720 --> 0:19:31.960 and we've gathered enough information that these kids seem like 0:19:32.000 --> 0:19:34.400 they're the wrong guys had been picked up. I also 0:19:34.520 --> 0:19:37.639 created this incredible moral ambiguity because we had convinced the 0:19:37.640 --> 0:19:39.960 parents of the victims that we were here to tell 0:19:40.000 --> 0:19:43.679 their story, and they were utterly convinced of their guilt. 0:19:44.040 --> 0:19:47.560 But I called Sheila, and to her credit, she said, oh, 0:19:47.640 --> 0:19:50.320 that sounds even more interesting. Stick with it, because she 0:19:50.320 --> 0:19:51.680 couldn't pulled the plug. 0:19:51.800 --> 0:19:51.960 You know. 0:19:52.000 --> 0:19:53.919 And it's the number one lesson. I mean, I'm not 0:19:53.960 --> 0:19:56.520 sure if there are filmmakers in the in your audience 0:19:56.640 --> 0:19:59.280 or whatever, but my number one lesson that I tell 0:19:59.320 --> 0:20:03.480 people about filmmaking is never, particularly in documentary, never lock 0:20:03.560 --> 0:20:05.760 into the preconceived idea of what you think your film 0:20:05.800 --> 0:20:07.520 is about, because you'll miss the story. If we had 0:20:07.520 --> 0:20:10.920 locked into teen Satan Killers, and hadn't opened our eyes 0:20:10.960 --> 0:20:13.040 to the real story, we might have missed the story. 0:20:13.520 --> 0:20:15.800 But I never imagined that it would actually ever get 0:20:15.840 --> 0:20:18.199 to trial because I had faith in the justice system. 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:22.639 I never imagined that evidence such as Metallica lyrics or 0:20:22.760 --> 0:20:25.680 Stephen King novels would be presented in a court of 0:20:25.760 --> 0:20:28.480 law in the United States of America as the main evidence, 0:20:28.640 --> 0:20:32.200 and that somebody could be convicted on literally no forensic evidence, 0:20:32.200 --> 0:20:33.840 no blood at the crime scene. I mean, you know, 0:20:33.960 --> 0:20:35.800 you know the details of this case, and. 0:20:35.760 --> 0:20:38.199 So yeah, but it's worth refreshing that. 0:20:39.520 --> 0:20:42.879 We're at the police station. The only thing. Every so 0:20:43.000 --> 0:20:44.880 often one of the cops would come in and say, 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:47.040 are you ready to make your confession? Yet I would 0:20:47.080 --> 0:20:48.000 just stand there and look at them. 0:20:48.040 --> 0:20:48.640 They would leave. 0:20:48.880 --> 0:20:51.280 I stood there all night long until the next day 0:20:51.359 --> 0:20:54.000 they got me and took me into a courtroom. They 0:20:54.000 --> 0:20:57.679 tell me, you know, somebody's already confessed to this crime. 0:20:58.160 --> 0:21:01.640 They've implicated you, saying you were the ring leader of this. 0:21:01.880 --> 0:21:04.639 So now what you need to do is confess to 0:21:04.680 --> 0:21:07.160 this and say no, you weren't the ring leader they were. 0:21:07.320 --> 0:21:09.080 Try to put the blame back on them, or you're 0:21:09.080 --> 0:21:11.320 going to die because of this. I can't even figure 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.000 out who the hell they're talking about because I've only 0:21:13.040 --> 0:21:14.879 got one friend in the entire world, and that was 0:21:14.920 --> 0:21:17.359 Jason Baldwin. I knew it wasn't him because he was 0:21:17.400 --> 0:21:18.840 with me, and I knew he didn't do it. I 0:21:18.920 --> 0:21:21.200 knew he wasn't going to confess to something he hadn't done. 0:21:21.600 --> 0:21:24.960 So I didn't realize who it even was that had 0:21:25.000 --> 0:21:27.200 confessed until the next day. Whenever they take me into 0:21:27.240 --> 0:21:30.000 the courtroom, they say who it is, and they ask, 0:21:30.280 --> 0:21:32.000 you know, how do you plead all this sort of thing. 0:21:32.800 --> 0:21:35.680 They refuse to even read the confession in the courtroom. 0:21:35.800 --> 0:21:37.920 They asked me, did I want it read? I said yes, 0:21:38.280 --> 0:21:40.200 and they wouldn't read it even after they asked me 0:21:40.240 --> 0:21:42.040 and I said yes. Instead, they take me out of 0:21:42.080 --> 0:21:45.800 the courtroom into a janitor's closet with mops and brooms. 0:21:46.040 --> 0:21:49.560 They give me a transcript, a type transcript of this confession. 0:21:49.880 --> 0:21:52.879 When I started reading it, it's immediately obvious why they 0:21:52.920 --> 0:21:54.720 didn't want this thing or read in court. It made 0:21:54.760 --> 0:21:57.119 no sense whatsoever. You know, you're talking about this story 0:21:57.160 --> 0:21:59.879 that's like a Frankenstein patchwork thing that they've so did 0:22:00.000 --> 0:22:04.199 together out of many statements made by somebody with an 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:07.600 IQ of between seventy and seventy two. And what they 0:22:07.600 --> 0:22:09.480 would do is when he would confess to something and 0:22:09.520 --> 0:22:12.240 wouldn't get anything right, they would come back into the 0:22:12.320 --> 0:22:15.880 room and say, well, do you think maybe this could 0:22:15.880 --> 0:22:19.119 have happened? Or I mean even more blatantly obvious. The 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:21.080 first time they asked him when did the murders happen? 0:22:21.119 --> 0:22:23.399 And he says something like eight o'clock in the morning. Well, 0:22:23.400 --> 0:22:25.199 they knew that wasn't true because all three of the 0:22:25.240 --> 0:22:28.320 kids were in school. So gradually what they did was 0:22:28.400 --> 0:22:31.080 shape this thing to make it what they wanted it 0:22:31.119 --> 0:22:33.280 to be. That's why they didn't want it read in court. 0:22:33.960 --> 0:22:38.280 No, and they ignored obvious signs that pointed to at 0:22:38.400 --> 0:22:42.719 least one, arguably up to three other individuals. Yes, including 0:22:42.960 --> 0:22:45.240 there was a local restaurant, was it Bojangles or something? 0:22:46.040 --> 0:22:48.520 Was a Bojangles where the manager called the cops that 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:50.560 night and said there was a guy covered in mud 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:54.320 and blood that stumbled into the fast food place and 0:22:54.600 --> 0:22:58.480 went into the bathroom. And to their credit, the manager 0:22:58.520 --> 0:23:01.240 called up and a police officer came but didn't investigate, 0:23:01.800 --> 0:23:05.359 and they ultimately collected evidence from that bathroom that he 0:23:05.400 --> 0:23:07.439 went into, which there was blood all over the place 0:23:07.760 --> 0:23:10.480 and mud, and they lost it. Yes, and there again 0:23:10.520 --> 0:23:12.960 were obvious signs. I mean the one I just talked about, 0:23:13.040 --> 0:23:15.200 the various signs pointing to the stepfather of one of 0:23:15.240 --> 0:23:19.160 the boys. I mean, this one kind of came with instructions, 0:23:19.880 --> 0:23:22.520 and I know that it's difficult. I'm not an anarchist. 0:23:22.600 --> 0:23:24.480 I believe we do need a system of law and order. 0:23:24.560 --> 0:23:26.600 I think there are a lot of very good police 0:23:26.640 --> 0:23:29.879 and judges and prosecutors out there. But in this case, 0:23:30.359 --> 0:23:33.639 it's a small town, high profile, complicated crime. Because the 0:23:33.640 --> 0:23:36.359 crime scene itself was a muddy riverbed, not the easiest 0:23:36.359 --> 0:23:38.400 place to collect evidence. It seemed to have been scrubbed 0:23:38.400 --> 0:23:41.200 to some degree. And then all the pressure you ran 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:42.520 into the perfect storm. 0:23:42.680 --> 0:23:44.360 They put me in another sale where I would stay 0:23:44.400 --> 0:23:46.800 for almost the next year while I waited to go 0:23:46.840 --> 0:23:50.640 to trial. When we do go to trial, the evidence 0:23:50.680 --> 0:23:53.840 that they present against us is things like Stephen King books, 0:23:54.640 --> 0:23:57.960 the fact that we owned Metallica T shirts and albums, 0:23:58.240 --> 0:24:01.040 posters that were hanging on our wall, you know, things 0:24:01.200 --> 0:24:05.920 that were from like skateboarding magazines, ceremonial magic books. This 0:24:05.960 --> 0:24:08.560 is the evidence they had. That the prosecutors tell the 0:24:08.640 --> 0:24:11.120 jury that these things are not only evidence that were guilty, 0:24:11.160 --> 0:24:12.920 but their evidence that I don't even have a soul, 0:24:13.520 --> 0:24:15.119 that this is how evil I am. 0:24:16.040 --> 0:24:18.879 I was totally surprised when I went to trial and 0:24:18.960 --> 0:24:23.040 instead of the narration of the story revolving around evidence, 0:24:23.119 --> 0:24:26.280 the prosecutor John Fogeman and Brenton Davis were saying things 0:24:26.320 --> 0:24:30.480 like the crime scene was completely clean, there was absolutely 0:24:30.680 --> 0:24:35.479 no evidence, no physical evidence left behind, and this, in 0:24:35.560 --> 0:24:40.440 fact is evidence of Satanic cult ritual activity. 0:24:40.000 --> 0:24:42.679 Because the devil faned up the crime scene. Basically, when 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:45.320 they put that guy in the stand who was testifying 0:24:45.359 --> 0:24:48.479 as an expert on Satanism and witchcraft and all, and 0:24:48.520 --> 0:24:51.919 the defense attorney quite rightly said to him, where did 0:24:52.000 --> 0:24:54.280 you get certified at this? And it turned out he 0:24:54.320 --> 0:24:57.320 had spent like an hour doing some online something or whatever. 0:24:57.440 --> 0:24:59.560 It was ridiculed. It was laughable, right, The fact that 0:24:59.600 --> 0:25:02.240 he was called himself an expert was laughable. And that's 0:25:02.280 --> 0:25:04.160 one thing that I was like, well, the jury's got 0:25:04.200 --> 0:25:07.080 to hear that. And the other thing was when they 0:25:07.119 --> 0:25:09.159 had the doctor on the stand, right, it was like 0:25:09.880 --> 0:25:12.600 orthopedic surgeon or something, and they were asking him about 0:25:12.680 --> 0:25:15.320 the way that the one boy had been mutilated, right, 0:25:15.359 --> 0:25:17.520 and we had the skin cut off his penis. I mean, 0:25:17.520 --> 0:25:19.880 he's really pretty disgusting even thinking about it now. Now. 0:25:19.920 --> 0:25:22.639 We found out later was animals had actually started eating 0:25:22.680 --> 0:25:25.600 their bodies in the water that they were submerging. And 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:28.639 so when the police pulled Jesse into the police station 0:25:28.960 --> 0:25:31.200 and they laid out the photos of the bodies, they 0:25:31.200 --> 0:25:34.360 had him make up a story for all the visible wounds. 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:36.919 The calls and manner of the wounds were unknown. They 0:25:36.920 --> 0:25:39.680 didn't know that all these wounds were animal predation. 0:25:39.880 --> 0:25:41.760 If you remember when the jury went out, what did 0:25:41.800 --> 0:25:43.200 you think was going to happen? 0:25:43.400 --> 0:25:45.960 I sincerely believed that we would go home, they would 0:25:45.960 --> 0:25:48.520 find us not guilty, that they would be able to 0:25:48.520 --> 0:25:53.120 totally ignore all the flaming prejudicial stuff that the prosecution 0:25:53.359 --> 0:25:56.880 was bringing up about Satanism and everything, and look at 0:25:56.880 --> 0:25:59.679 the case for what it was and follow the evidence. 0:26:00.240 --> 0:26:02.440 So told all your life that the purpose of the 0:26:02.520 --> 0:26:05.800 judicial system is to find the truth, when really it's 0:26:05.840 --> 0:26:06.760 to get a conviction. 0:26:07.920 --> 0:26:11.520 They came back in they sentenced me to death three times. 0:26:11.840 --> 0:26:14.800 They sentenced me to die by lethal injection three times. 0:26:15.160 --> 0:26:19.000 They sentenced Jason to life in prison without parole. The 0:26:19.040 --> 0:26:22.320 other guy they sentenced to life plus forty years. They 0:26:22.359 --> 0:26:26.840 immediately take me from the courtroom to death Row, where 0:26:26.880 --> 0:26:29.600 I would not see Jason again. I saw him maybe 0:26:31.200 --> 0:26:35.879 twelve fifteen years later, for maybe twenty to thirty seconds. 0:26:36.560 --> 0:26:39.560 They used to bring other prisoners in to clean the barracks, 0:26:39.600 --> 0:26:41.280 and he was one of the prisoners they brought in 0:26:41.320 --> 0:26:43.640 one day to clean death row. So he comes by 0:26:43.640 --> 0:26:47.240 mysell mopping and sweeping. That was the first contact I'd 0:26:47.240 --> 0:26:49.280 had with him in like fifteen years by that point. 0:26:51.000 --> 0:26:55.600 It's truly mind boggling the whole thing, even by our standards, 0:26:55.680 --> 0:26:59.080 being entrenched in this work, you know, and you hear 0:26:59.240 --> 0:27:02.639 one fuck up story after another, but this one takes 0:27:02.680 --> 0:27:05.040 the King go, yeah, you know. I talk a lot 0:27:05.119 --> 0:27:09.560 about the idea that when we willfully or accidentally, want 0:27:09.560 --> 0:27:13.840 to call it mistakenly, prosecute the wrong person and convict them, 0:27:14.040 --> 0:27:17.200 by definition, we stop looking for the right person exactly. 0:27:17.240 --> 0:27:21.040 And in this case, it sure seems like the prosecutors 0:27:21.119 --> 0:27:23.240 must have known that these guys didn't do it. At 0:27:23.240 --> 0:27:25.320 some point they realized that they had the wrong guys. 0:27:25.640 --> 0:27:27.280 Maybe it was around the time you did, maybe it 0:27:27.320 --> 0:27:30.440 was sooner, may it was later. But then you're left with, 0:27:30.720 --> 0:27:35.199 wait a minute, So, whoever this sick fuck is that 0:27:35.359 --> 0:27:38.240 did this terrible, or whoever these people are that did this, 0:27:39.080 --> 0:27:41.520 they're amongst us. Yeah. 0:27:41.720 --> 0:27:44.679 Well, first of all, I do believe that during the 0:27:44.760 --> 0:27:47.840 trial and through the conviction, the authorities felt they had 0:27:47.880 --> 0:27:50.679 the right guy. And the reason that's scary is because 0:27:50.680 --> 0:27:54.280 of the utter incompetence and the ability to fall victim 0:27:54.320 --> 0:27:58.320 to confirmation bias, to all sorts of problems within our system. 0:27:58.840 --> 0:28:01.479 I actually think that they felt they had the right people. 0:28:02.280 --> 0:28:05.399 What I find evil, the real evil in this case 0:28:05.800 --> 0:28:10.359 because a lot of that initial false conviction I attribute 0:28:10.400 --> 0:28:14.400 to human error, which is scary in some way scarier 0:28:14.440 --> 0:28:17.600 than a conspiracy. But it's the post conviction period where 0:28:17.600 --> 0:28:21.159 it became quite clear, I think to everybody involved that 0:28:21.240 --> 0:28:25.159 these guys were innocent, and for people to hang on 0:28:25.240 --> 0:28:28.919 to their jobs, for people to not question things, you know, 0:28:28.960 --> 0:28:32.199 for the same judge Judge Burnett, who presided over the 0:28:32.240 --> 0:28:37.640 original trial, to be the post conviction appellate judge ruling 0:28:38.080 --> 0:28:41.600 whether he had reversible error in the original is absurd, 0:28:41.720 --> 0:28:43.520 and that's what the way it was for over a 0:28:43.560 --> 0:28:45.920 decade on that case. So the real evil in this 0:28:46.040 --> 0:28:48.600 case is the post conviction period where people cared more 0:28:48.600 --> 0:28:51.000 about their jobs. And you see that all the time. 0:28:51.040 --> 0:28:54.400 It's why there shouldn't be prosecutorial immunity and all sorts 0:28:54.440 --> 0:28:58.200 of other issues. But just getting back to my origin story, 0:28:58.960 --> 0:29:01.560 you know, in covering this story, I just still I 0:29:01.680 --> 0:29:04.920 didn't have the gene that I thought film could be 0:29:05.040 --> 0:29:09.240 used for social good until the final moments of Paradise Lost, 0:29:09.280 --> 0:29:11.680 which are the final moments of the trial where oh 0:29:11.680 --> 0:29:15.160 my god, they really have convicted this guy on no evidence. 0:29:15.160 --> 0:29:17.440 And you see in Paradise Laws in the movie, Jason 0:29:17.480 --> 0:29:19.719 has already been convicted halfway through the movie, and then 0:29:19.760 --> 0:29:22.200 the second half of the movie is focusing on Jason 0:29:22.240 --> 0:29:24.680 and Damien, and you see Damien being chained up and 0:29:24.760 --> 0:29:26.360 led off to death row. I mean, we were in 0:29:26.360 --> 0:29:28.080 the room with him as he was being chained off 0:29:28.120 --> 0:29:30.960 and led off to death row, and Jason was being 0:29:31.080 --> 0:29:33.800 led off to life without parole sentences and they get 0:29:34.040 --> 0:29:36.320 escorted out of the room, and Bruce and I look 0:29:36.360 --> 0:29:38.600 at each other like, oh my god, I cannot believe 0:29:38.600 --> 0:29:40.960 what we just witnessed. And that's when we vowed to 0:29:41.000 --> 0:29:43.680 do everything we could. And when the gene or the 0:29:43.760 --> 0:29:48.000 light bulb went off in my head where I realized that, yes, 0:29:48.160 --> 0:29:50.680 I'm sitting on all this footage that can help, and 0:29:50.720 --> 0:29:54.400 that film I think can be used for shining a light. 0:29:54.520 --> 0:29:57.160 And so I feel like I stumbled on to the 0:29:57.200 --> 0:30:00.480 criminal justice system as a place to place my f focus. 0:30:00.600 --> 0:30:03.760 But seeing how easy it is for people to make mistakes, 0:30:04.000 --> 0:30:06.160 seeing how easy it is for somebody to be sent 0:30:06.200 --> 0:30:08.880 to death, this became my calling when I saw that 0:30:09.120 --> 0:30:12.960 zero evidence and Stephen King novels and Metallica lyrics can 0:30:13.080 --> 0:30:14.080 put you on death row. 0:30:14.240 --> 0:30:16.880 Right, Well, if that's the case, I mean when you 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:18.640 add up all the Stephen King novels and all the 0:30:18.640 --> 0:30:21.160 Batallica records that would sold out, means there's tens of 0:30:21.280 --> 0:30:24.040 millions of serial killers out there that we should all 0:30:24.080 --> 0:30:25.280 be very scared crazy. 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:28.120 And you know, he did have an affinity for Aleister 0:30:28.280 --> 0:30:31.320 Crowley and that was also introduced. But still, this is 0:30:31.360 --> 0:30:34.440 not forensic evidence. You know, there was no blood at 0:30:34.440 --> 0:30:37.239 the crime scene, no forensic evidence. I mean, it's just 0:30:37.920 --> 0:30:41.400 this is the worst case probably I've studied, you know, 0:30:41.560 --> 0:30:42.520 in all these years. 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:48.280 So your film ultimately led to an amazing outpouring of 0:30:48.360 --> 0:30:52.320 support from people all over the world, regular people as 0:30:52.360 --> 0:30:56.800 well as people at the very top echelons of society. 0:30:57.720 --> 0:31:01.640 Johnny Depp, Eddie Vedder, Natalie Maine to Peter Jackson. Amazing, 0:31:01.720 --> 0:31:06.440 amazing people who became like, not casually involved, but deeply involved. 0:31:06.520 --> 0:31:09.880 And there's no separating that from the fact that it 0:31:10.040 --> 0:31:13.280 was a direct result of your movie, which had to 0:31:13.320 --> 0:31:16.200 feel good. But then how did it feel when finally, 0:31:16.600 --> 0:31:20.800 eighteen years later, these guys walked out of prison and 0:31:20.880 --> 0:31:23.200 knowing the role that you played in that, right, well, 0:31:23.360 --> 0:31:25.520 and a lot of people played roles in it, right, 0:31:25.520 --> 0:31:27.440 That's the thing I mean this. I hope this doesn't 0:31:27.440 --> 0:31:29.960 sound falsely humble. I'm very proud of the films, and 0:31:30.000 --> 0:31:32.200 I think the film's definitely played a role. And I 0:31:32.320 --> 0:31:35.600 definitely think that we're the ones who said against all 0:31:35.640 --> 0:31:38.280 the other media, because every night there was a news 0:31:38.320 --> 0:31:41.840 report or story of these monstrous killers. It was so 0:31:41.960 --> 0:31:44.800 prejudicing everything, so we were truly the only media saying 0:31:44.840 --> 0:31:47.880 that they were innocent. I think the film attracted a 0:31:47.920 --> 0:31:50.920 lot of the attention, but it's the activism of tens 0:31:50.920 --> 0:31:53.320 of thousands of people and the well known people that 0:31:53.400 --> 0:31:54.360 got them out of prison. 0:31:54.480 --> 0:31:56.959 But that feels good. I mean, it's rare in one's career. 0:31:57.040 --> 0:31:59.440 You know, when you make documentaries, you hope to affect 0:31:59.520 --> 0:32:02.000 people in some way. When you're a storyteller in general, 0:32:02.040 --> 0:32:03.680 you want to affect people in some way, and to 0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:06.080 have that kind of tangible effect on the outcome of 0:32:06.120 --> 0:32:09.920 a case felt terrific, although I will say it was 0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:14.400 also very bittersweet because a it took way too long, 0:32:15.000 --> 0:32:17.560 you know, eighteen and a half years. Actually, with some 0:32:17.600 --> 0:32:19.800 cases that's on the low end of things, sadly, but 0:32:19.840 --> 0:32:22.720 still it took so long, and the attempts to deny 0:32:22.840 --> 0:32:25.720 DNA testing and the fact that the same judge remained 0:32:25.760 --> 0:32:29.600 on the case during the whole post conviction is just outrageous. 0:32:29.880 --> 0:32:32.520 And then the end result was the Alfred plea, where 0:32:32.720 --> 0:32:35.200 you know, Damien was not well on death row as 0:32:35.240 --> 0:32:37.960 we know, and you know, Jason had to really debate 0:32:38.040 --> 0:32:41.600 whether he wanted to take the deal because he wanted 0:32:41.600 --> 0:32:45.400 to keep fighting, and some evidence that Peter Jackson paid 0:32:45.440 --> 0:32:48.600 for was coming out and very helpful, which of course 0:32:48.640 --> 0:32:51.400 scared the prosecution, which is why they were even willing 0:32:51.440 --> 0:32:53.840 to do the Alfred plea. Should we explain what the 0:32:53.840 --> 0:32:54.480 Alfred plea is? 0:32:54.560 --> 0:32:56.920 Yeah, let me talk about it. Go ahead. 0:32:57.160 --> 0:33:00.000 Well, the Alfred plea is basically where you stand up 0:33:00.200 --> 0:33:04.120 in court. In this case, Damien and Jason and Jesse 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:09.720 acknowledged that the prosecution has enough evidence to convict, but 0:33:09.960 --> 0:33:13.320 you maintain your innocence. You state that I am innocent 0:33:13.360 --> 0:33:16.680 of these charges, but I believe the state has enough 0:33:16.720 --> 0:33:20.320 evidence that a conviction could occur, So I plead guilty 0:33:20.560 --> 0:33:24.000 in exchange for time served. Is basically what happened. So 0:33:24.080 --> 0:33:27.440 the death sentence was vacated and turned into a first 0:33:27.480 --> 0:33:29.880 degree murder charge, and he was sentenced to life served, 0:33:29.920 --> 0:33:32.560 which allowed him to go out of the prison, and 0:33:32.600 --> 0:33:35.760 the life without parole sentences were vacated and turned into 0:33:36.480 --> 0:33:40.160 time served. That's you know, you can understand why somebody 0:33:40.160 --> 0:33:43.640 would accept that, especially if you're on death row. But 0:33:43.920 --> 0:33:47.320 it's so cowardly on the part of the State of Arkansas. 0:33:47.360 --> 0:33:50.920 Does anyone really believe that if the State of Arkansas 0:33:50.920 --> 0:33:54.800 had an abiding belief that these were teen child killers 0:33:55.040 --> 0:33:57.760 who sacrificed eight year olds to the devil in a 0:33:57.760 --> 0:34:01.120 satanic ritual that they would allow them to walk free 0:34:01.160 --> 0:34:04.000 after eighteen years. Of course not they know they're innocent, 0:34:04.200 --> 0:34:06.760 but they want to protect themselves from accountability. 0:34:06.840 --> 0:34:07.000 You know. 0:34:07.040 --> 0:34:08.800 Some people have said, well, they want to also protect 0:34:08.840 --> 0:34:11.920 themselves from being sued for wrongful conviction, which you know, 0:34:12.360 --> 0:34:15.280 the average wrongful conviction case is worth a million dollars 0:34:15.320 --> 0:34:18.680 a year. Times eighteen years times three defendants, that's fifty 0:34:18.719 --> 0:34:21.440 four million dollars if I'm doing my math correctly or 0:34:21.440 --> 0:34:24.680 something like that. But they could have even signed, you know, 0:34:24.719 --> 0:34:28.000 a way that they won't sue for wrongful conviction. It's 0:34:28.080 --> 0:34:32.239 all about accountability, and that's how these things happen. That's 0:34:32.280 --> 0:34:35.040 why post conviction takes for so long. Nobody wants to 0:34:35.040 --> 0:34:38.799 be accountable. And I think it's so cowardly and disturbing 0:34:39.160 --> 0:34:42.520 that this is how these guys ended up free. I mean, 0:34:42.560 --> 0:34:45.440 I took Jason to both the Berlin Film Festival with 0:34:45.480 --> 0:34:49.279 Paradise Lost three and there's a great documentary festival in 0:34:49.320 --> 0:34:54.960 Amsterdam called IFA International Documentary Festival of Amsterdam, and both 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:59.640 of those border crossings were fraught with delays and problems 0:34:59.719 --> 0:35:03.280 because as in the computer, it's Jason Bald with convicted 0:35:03.360 --> 0:35:06.200 child killer. Jason wants to study law and become a lawyer. 0:35:06.239 --> 0:35:08.600 He can't do it because he's a convicted child killer. 0:35:09.160 --> 0:35:13.320 So yesfl great that the movie had an impact on people, 0:35:13.440 --> 0:35:17.399 and those people pushed and pushed until these guys were 0:35:17.480 --> 0:35:20.360 let out. But sad that it's the alphad plea and 0:35:20.400 --> 0:35:22.120 they're not fully exonerated. 0:35:28.840 --> 0:35:31.320 The alpha plea is such a it's like a Sophie's 0:35:31.400 --> 0:35:34.880 choice kind of thing. And we've had Oh god, I 0:35:34.880 --> 0:35:38.200 don't know how many people on Ralph conviction who have 0:35:38.760 --> 0:35:42.320 resorted to that. You know, they have so much leverage 0:35:43.000 --> 0:35:44.839 when you're looking at the amount of time it will 0:35:44.880 --> 0:35:47.239 take to go back for another trial, Yeah, you're going 0:35:47.280 --> 0:35:50.560 to spend that time in prison awaiting that trial. If 0:35:50.600 --> 0:35:52.719 you're trying to put yourself in the shoes of someone 0:35:52.760 --> 0:35:55.439 who's face with that choice, If you know that you've 0:35:55.440 --> 0:36:00.120 already been framed once or gotten you know, convicted, he 0:36:00.120 --> 0:36:02.600 didn't do however it got to that once, you would 0:36:02.680 --> 0:36:05.600 be hard pressed to risk the rest of your life 0:36:05.840 --> 0:36:07.360 in the system that has already. 0:36:07.360 --> 0:36:12.000 Ye, Damien was truly unhealthy and being abused by guards. 0:36:12.080 --> 0:36:15.000 And that's ultimately why I think they're all heroes to me. 0:36:15.080 --> 0:36:18.280 But Jason Baldwin acted very heroically because he was ready 0:36:18.320 --> 0:36:20.960 to stay and fight and clear his name. But everyone 0:36:21.040 --> 0:36:24.759 felt that Damien's health was in such a state that 0:36:25.000 --> 0:36:28.279 to wait any longer might be detrimental, so he made 0:36:28.280 --> 0:36:30.400 that decision a death sentence. 0:36:30.920 --> 0:36:36.120 Jason. Of all the eighty something episodes we recorded, now, 0:36:37.680 --> 0:36:42.319 his was really like it was difficult to even hear 0:36:42.400 --> 0:36:47.160 the stories that he told. He's such an amazingly gentle, 0:36:47.520 --> 0:36:51.400 you know, soul, and you know he was what ninety 0:36:51.400 --> 0:36:55.840 one hundred pounds back then, right, actually did well. 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:57.920 In school, And you're right. That was the vibe he 0:36:58.000 --> 0:37:00.480 was giving off. Was this sweet little boy talking to 0:37:00.520 --> 0:37:02.759 me about phishing and what he likes to do when 0:37:02.760 --> 0:37:05.640 he's not at school and drawing. He was an avid drawer. 0:37:05.880 --> 0:37:07.920 And while he's talking to me, I'm looking at his 0:37:08.080 --> 0:37:12.400 tiny little wrists, because if you believe the prosecution story, 0:37:12.440 --> 0:37:16.520 it's Baldwin who wielded the serrated hunting knife that castrated 0:37:16.560 --> 0:37:19.520 the buyer's boy. And I'm talking to the sweet little 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:22.600 kid and staring at his wrist and trying to imagine 0:37:22.600 --> 0:37:25.160 that this guy knifed these kids in the way that 0:37:25.239 --> 0:37:28.879 it was alleged, and I just found it incredible. 0:37:30.120 --> 0:37:33.279 Jason Baldwin on the show. It was an experience I'll 0:37:33.280 --> 0:37:36.080 never forget when this all came down. You were in 0:37:36.080 --> 0:37:36.680 tenth grade. 0:37:36.760 --> 0:37:37.400 Tenth grade. 0:37:37.600 --> 0:37:39.799 Tenth grade. Let's just reflect on that for a second. 0:37:39.840 --> 0:37:42.440 You're not even anywhere near being an adult in tenth grade. 0:37:42.680 --> 0:37:46.880 So then you end up getting sent to maximum security prison. 0:37:47.120 --> 0:37:49.799 Right when you first go to prison and you're not 0:37:49.880 --> 0:37:52.080 going to death row, you go to what's called a 0:37:52.160 --> 0:37:55.239 diagnostic unit, and that's where they evaluate you mentally and 0:37:55.280 --> 0:37:59.440 physically to determine what your parent unit in the department 0:37:59.480 --> 0:38:02.640 corrections will be. Because they have a myriad of prisons 0:38:02.680 --> 0:38:06.759 on various different old slave plantations in the South, and 0:38:07.040 --> 0:38:09.919 each of them are different and in different ways by 0:38:10.000 --> 0:38:13.080 age and your strength and things like that. And when 0:38:13.120 --> 0:38:16.200 I went to diagnostics, they saw me like you saw 0:38:16.239 --> 0:38:20.040 me as a small innocent kid, and a diagnostics they 0:38:20.080 --> 0:38:21.680 were like, we've got to send you to one of 0:38:21.719 --> 0:38:24.360 two places, Jason, or you're not gonna make it PC 0:38:24.640 --> 0:38:28.840 Protective custody or what's called SPU Suicide Prevention Unit and 0:38:28.880 --> 0:38:31.920 suicide prevention unit. You will have your own cell. And 0:38:32.040 --> 0:38:34.319 you know, I looked at it like this. At the time, 0:38:34.360 --> 0:38:38.239 we didn't have very many people on our side. In fact, 0:38:38.320 --> 0:38:41.600 it was just us. And I'm thrust into this incredibly 0:38:41.640 --> 0:38:46.000 impossible situation. And I was escorted everywhere I went in 0:38:46.040 --> 0:38:48.320 the prison, and so I'd see the people in SPU 0:38:48.560 --> 0:38:51.680 going to chow and they'd be doing the thorizine shuffle 0:38:51.719 --> 0:38:54.800 because they're so heavily medicated. And I had a fear 0:38:55.120 --> 0:38:57.840 that if I acquiesced and let them put me in SPU, 0:38:57.920 --> 0:39:01.680 that they would forcefully make me and I would lose 0:39:01.800 --> 0:39:05.160 my mind and my ability to think and reason and 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:08.560 to fight. And so I said, no, I can't do that. 0:39:08.960 --> 0:39:12.799 And as far as the PC protective custody, anybody knows 0:39:12.840 --> 0:39:15.200 if you are saying you are so weak that you 0:39:15.280 --> 0:39:19.520 need protection, that people are gonna see that and prey 0:39:19.560 --> 0:39:22.279 on you even more. And so I knew I had 0:39:22.280 --> 0:39:26.080 to some way, some fashion stand on my own two 0:39:26.120 --> 0:39:30.000 feet in there and earn everybody's respect from the inmates 0:39:30.000 --> 0:39:32.719 and guards a light and they said, well, you not 0:39:32.840 --> 0:39:34.799 going to one of these places. We're gonna have to 0:39:34.840 --> 0:39:37.239 send you to Barner. And at the time they had 0:39:37.280 --> 0:39:40.200 just shipped all these guys from the Little Tucker Unit 0:39:40.239 --> 0:39:43.799 to Barner and they were destroying the place. They said, 0:39:43.800 --> 0:39:49.440 it was just chaos and destruction and just incredibly violent place, 0:39:49.719 --> 0:39:51.480 and that's where they were going to have to send me. 0:39:51.760 --> 0:39:53.560 And I just told them that that's what you got 0:39:53.560 --> 0:39:55.799 to do. You got to do it. And so they 0:39:55.920 --> 0:39:59.520 did eventually send me to Barner Unit, and it was 0:39:59.560 --> 0:40:00.960 everything they said it was. 0:40:01.280 --> 0:40:02.439 How did you survive there? 0:40:02.560 --> 0:40:04.480 And you know, by the grace of God, you know, 0:40:04.520 --> 0:40:07.680 as you said, I guess, I'll say I was incredibly luckily, 0:40:07.719 --> 0:40:10.799 but I was incredibly blessed to I went in there, 0:40:11.120 --> 0:40:13.960 they opened up and mister Patten stepped out, and his 0:40:14.080 --> 0:40:18.200 clerk stepped out, and mister Panton says, in May Bowlin, 0:40:18.360 --> 0:40:21.719 I'm mister Patten, the classification officer. I'll be assigning you 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:24.480 to your housing unit. And this is my clerk, Mojo. 0:40:24.840 --> 0:40:26.560 And they tell me you got to stand up for 0:40:26.600 --> 0:40:29.759 yourself in here or these people just will run you 0:40:30.000 --> 0:40:33.239 over and turn you into a sex slave and all 0:40:33.320 --> 0:40:37.160 these horrible things and make you pay money for protection 0:40:37.400 --> 0:40:40.640 and stuff like that. And so they assign me to 0:40:40.840 --> 0:40:43.759 seven barracks, and seven barracks at the Barner unit is 0:40:43.800 --> 0:40:46.640 in take barracks. I walk down the hall and as 0:40:46.640 --> 0:40:49.120 I'm walking, I'm walking next to this barracks and it's 0:40:49.120 --> 0:40:53.160 got bulletproof glass three stories high, and these guys are 0:40:53.560 --> 0:40:56.600 beating on it. Right, it's plexiglass, it's got chicken wire 0:40:56.600 --> 0:40:59.759 in it, and there are sell bars on the inside 0:40:59.760 --> 0:41:01.799 of it, going all the way up three stories. And 0:41:01.840 --> 0:41:05.520 I look and these guys are literally climbing this thing. 0:41:05.600 --> 0:41:08.560 They are climbing it above one another're hanging on to 0:41:08.680 --> 0:41:12.480 the bars, looking at me, beating the glass and pointing 0:41:12.520 --> 0:41:15.720 at me. Because they've been watching the trial on TV 0:41:15.840 --> 0:41:18.080 and the hearings and stuff for an entire year. It's 0:41:18.120 --> 0:41:21.120 like a pep rally. Right, They're finally going to have 0:41:21.239 --> 0:41:22.279 their hands on me. 0:41:22.440 --> 0:41:22.640 Right. 0:41:22.920 --> 0:41:25.480 And I get there and Sergeant Ivy's working the door 0:41:25.760 --> 0:41:27.799 and he tells me, He says, if you go in 0:41:27.840 --> 0:41:30.439 there and stand up for yourself, I got your back. 0:41:30.560 --> 0:41:33.480 If not, they got you. And I'm just holding the 0:41:33.520 --> 0:41:36.160 only thing I have is a bible, a couple of 0:41:36.200 --> 0:41:39.400 letters from a mom. That's it in a little paper bag. 0:41:39.880 --> 0:41:42.040 And they opened the door and put me in there, 0:41:42.280 --> 0:41:44.640 and next thing I know, somebody swings a fist at me. 0:41:44.719 --> 0:41:47.960 I duck that one. The next one catches me and 0:41:48.320 --> 0:41:53.200 I'm fighting. Immediately the door opens back up, there's may sprayed. 0:41:53.440 --> 0:41:55.960 Sergeant Ivy's yeanking people off of me. I'm on the 0:41:56.000 --> 0:41:59.080 ground and he says, are you ready to go to PC? 0:41:59.320 --> 0:41:59.600 Now? 0:41:59.920 --> 0:42:02.560 You need to catch out, and the guys are hollering, 0:42:02.920 --> 0:42:06.600 catch out, bitch, catch out, O all these horrible things, 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:09.719 you know, which catch out means to leave the barracks 0:42:09.840 --> 0:42:13.000 and to go and to protective custody. And like I said, 0:42:13.000 --> 0:42:15.240 you know, I knew I needed to earn these people's 0:42:15.280 --> 0:42:17.720 respect because I did not know how long I would 0:42:17.719 --> 0:42:20.400 be there. I know I'm innocent, but I don't know 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:22.400 how long I'm going to be in this prison. And 0:42:22.440 --> 0:42:25.080 so I tell them no leave me. And next thing 0:42:25.120 --> 0:42:27.880 I know, we go from the dayroom tier downstairs of 0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:30.760 guys like push all the racks up against the wall. 0:42:31.080 --> 0:42:34.319 They circle around us, and I'm fighting this guy. And 0:42:34.320 --> 0:42:36.440 then I'm fighting this guy and there's people hitting me 0:42:36.480 --> 0:42:39.759 from behind. So it's kind of orderly and fair, but 0:42:39.800 --> 0:42:42.240 then again it's kind of not. And so I fight 0:42:42.320 --> 0:42:46.600 the whole barracks that Friday, everybody, and then they call 0:42:46.800 --> 0:42:50.080 shower call and the barracks next door eight bricks. They 0:42:50.080 --> 0:42:52.200 call two barracks at a time to go to shower. 0:42:52.440 --> 0:42:55.440 The shower holds one hundred people, and so when I 0:42:55.480 --> 0:42:58.719 get there, I gotta fight all these guys from eight barracks. 0:42:59.000 --> 0:43:01.959 And so I fought all weekend. My whole face would 0:43:01.960 --> 0:43:05.239 swollen up, my fists were swoll up, my body was 0:43:05.400 --> 0:43:08.799 beat And so I do this all weekend. I get 0:43:08.800 --> 0:43:11.800 into fights in the chowhau even like because there's even 0:43:11.840 --> 0:43:14.640 other people from other barracks is wanting to get to 0:43:14.680 --> 0:43:17.279 me in the chow haw and stuff like that. Come 0:43:17.360 --> 0:43:21.560 Monday morning, I'm barely even able to walk, you know, 0:43:21.640 --> 0:43:24.840 and like the guys are like just pushing me and 0:43:24.880 --> 0:43:27.680 guiding me a bit and which way to go and stuff, 0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:30.360 because I can't even see even less than I normally 0:43:30.440 --> 0:43:33.200 do because my eyes and stuff are all swollen up. 0:43:33.440 --> 0:43:36.640 And I just remember thinking that whole weekend about this 0:43:36.800 --> 0:43:41.000 job out in the fields, whole squad. There's gonna be sunshine, 0:43:41.040 --> 0:43:43.440 there's gonna be a dawn, and I'm gonna get to 0:43:43.480 --> 0:43:48.000 witness that. I was just looking forward to that first dawn, 0:43:48.160 --> 0:43:51.000 you know, that morning air. And so there was a 0:43:51.000 --> 0:43:53.160 part of me just no matter how bad it was, 0:43:53.239 --> 0:43:55.640 I was just looking forward to that first dawn. I'm like, 0:43:55.680 --> 0:43:57.520 if I can make it to that, you know, if 0:43:57.520 --> 0:43:59.560 I can make it to that, that's something good. 0:44:01.120 --> 0:44:06.120 It's interesting. Fifteen to twenty years ago, I was going 0:44:06.160 --> 0:44:09.400 around to different studios in Hollywood and saying, we should 0:44:09.400 --> 0:44:12.719 do a show that features these type of cases and 0:44:13.239 --> 0:44:17.880 shine a light on these injustices. And people were like, no, 0:44:17.880 --> 0:44:21.440 nobody wants that, you know, And now it seems like 0:44:21.600 --> 0:44:23.040 every other show you turn. 0:44:22.880 --> 0:44:25.880 On I have several of them. Yeah you do ye 0:44:26.000 --> 0:44:28.239 a wrong man on Stars. And I did a show 0:44:28.280 --> 0:44:33.319 for Discovery called Killing Richard Glossop, who another horrible case 0:44:33.320 --> 0:44:35.080 that I wish people would pay more attention to. 0:44:35.200 --> 0:44:35.960 Richard Glossops. 0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:38.799 And on Oklahoma's death Row, the status tried to kill 0:44:38.840 --> 0:44:41.799 him three times. The last time they tried to kill him, 0:44:41.840 --> 0:44:44.120 the portal was in his arm and they were using 0:44:44.160 --> 0:44:46.759 the wrong execution drugs and the clock struck three, which 0:44:46.840 --> 0:44:49.080 is the appointed killing hour, and the family on the 0:44:49.120 --> 0:44:51.680 outside thought the stay had not come as it had 0:44:51.719 --> 0:44:55.719 several times before, crying and hugging, thinking that he had 0:44:55.760 --> 0:44:58.160 been killed, when in fact, what was going on inside 0:44:58.200 --> 0:45:01.520 the death room was an argu between the state's attorney 0:45:01.560 --> 0:45:03.520 general and the head of prisons trying to figure out 0:45:03.520 --> 0:45:05.080 whether they should kill this guy because he had the 0:45:05.120 --> 0:45:09.640 wrong execution drugs and that fracas, and it's the second 0:45:09.719 --> 0:45:12.560 time there was the wrong execution drugs were being used. 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:15.920 There's you know, there's a moratorium on executions in Oklahoma. 0:45:16.000 --> 0:45:18.560 That's the only thing that's keeping Richard Glossop alive, as 0:45:18.560 --> 0:45:23.160 opposed to this bizarre story that the prosecution, you know, 0:45:23.239 --> 0:45:25.359 has given as to why he deserves to be killed, 0:45:25.360 --> 0:45:26.600 which is completely bogus. 0:45:27.160 --> 0:45:30.120 The case of Richard Glossop came to my attention several 0:45:30.239 --> 0:45:33.279 years ago, and I felt like I'd been kicked in 0:45:33.280 --> 0:45:36.279 the stomach. I mean, let's talk about him, because they 0:45:36.320 --> 0:45:38.680 do need to bring more attention to it. Can you 0:45:38.760 --> 0:45:41.239 give us the capsule summary of this. 0:45:41.400 --> 0:45:44.320 There's not a long story to tell. It's Richard Glossop 0:45:44.360 --> 0:45:47.080 was the manager of a kind of a sleazy motel, 0:45:47.480 --> 0:45:54.759 and he is accused of hiring the motel's janitor, who 0:45:54.760 --> 0:45:57.400 he had given a job to only a few months before, 0:45:58.040 --> 0:46:00.560 to kill the owner of the hotel that he could 0:46:00.560 --> 0:46:03.719 take it over. The whole story on its face when 0:46:03.760 --> 0:46:06.280 you pick it apart is ridiculous. The guy who actually 0:46:06.280 --> 0:46:09.839 did the killing is the junkie hotel janitor maintenance man 0:46:09.920 --> 0:46:13.280 named Justin Snead, and he was convicted of the murder, 0:46:13.320 --> 0:46:15.040 but you know, was not sentenced to death. He cut 0:46:15.080 --> 0:46:19.440 a deal, pointed a finger at his boss. There's zero evidence, 0:46:19.600 --> 0:46:23.280 zero corroboration. We did some forensic accounting or the defense 0:46:23.320 --> 0:46:26.120 attorney did some forensic accounting to show this idea of 0:46:26.200 --> 0:46:32.840 swindling and taking money is bogus. But conspiracy to murder 0:46:32.920 --> 0:46:35.520 hiring somebody to do a murder as a capital offense, 0:46:35.680 --> 0:46:38.360 and these guys wanted that notch on their belt. I'm convinced. 0:46:38.440 --> 0:46:40.920 I mean, there's just if you look at the evidence, 0:46:41.080 --> 0:46:43.359 there is none. It's just one of these cases where 0:46:43.360 --> 0:46:48.239 it's so bizarre. And this guy has been on it's 0:46:48.280 --> 0:46:49.879 been two years since I did the show. It's either 0:46:49.920 --> 0:46:53.239 thirty five days or thirty eight days prior to your execution, 0:46:53.400 --> 0:46:57.520 your move from one terrible cell in death row to 0:46:57.680 --> 0:47:01.160 your final cell where you're placed on death watch, where 0:47:01.200 --> 0:47:03.640 the lights are on twenty four seven. You now only 0:47:03.680 --> 0:47:06.600 have one meal a day. You are sleeping on a 0:47:06.640 --> 0:47:10.800 thin like half inch excuse for a mattress instead of 0:47:10.840 --> 0:47:13.839 a real cot and they're just trying to wear you down. 0:47:13.880 --> 0:47:17.160 And this poor guy has gone through this process three times. 0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:20.279 He's had the portal placed in his arm awaiting the 0:47:20.360 --> 0:47:23.080 lethal injection drugs. When they realized, oh, we have the 0:47:23.120 --> 0:47:25.399 wrong drugs. That's the only thing that has saved this guy. 0:47:25.480 --> 0:47:28.640 We're two mistakes by the prison. The first attempt to 0:47:28.719 --> 0:47:31.440 kill him, there was a stay because a new witness 0:47:31.480 --> 0:47:34.960 came along and the government dismissed it as being relevant. 0:47:35.080 --> 0:47:37.360 But that was the first day. The other two stays, 0:47:37.480 --> 0:47:40.799 the last two stays were because of botched execution. And 0:47:40.840 --> 0:47:43.760 there's just no evidence tying this guy to the murder. 0:47:43.960 --> 0:47:47.560 The convicted killer who confessed to doing it is serving 0:47:47.600 --> 0:47:50.759 a life sentence, whereas the guy who allegedly hired him 0:47:50.800 --> 0:47:53.879 for which there's snow proof, is on death row under 0:47:53.880 --> 0:47:55.400 the most miserable conditions. 0:47:55.640 --> 0:47:55.920 You know. 0:47:56.200 --> 0:48:02.200 And this is where my big thing is prosecutorial immunity. 0:48:02.400 --> 0:48:04.359 You know, on the one hand, it's been argued to me, well, 0:48:04.400 --> 0:48:07.520 prosecutors have to be immune from their actions because you know, 0:48:07.560 --> 0:48:11.560 in many places prosecutors are underpaid. You know, you wouldn't 0:48:11.600 --> 0:48:14.080 get good prosecutors to do their job if they were 0:48:14.200 --> 0:48:17.319 fearful of immunity. I get that on a certain level. 0:48:17.320 --> 0:48:20.040 And there's lots of great prosecutors and not everyone's a 0:48:20.080 --> 0:48:22.640 bad guy, and not every CoP's a bad cop. And 0:48:22.719 --> 0:48:25.160 I'm like, like, you can't paint people with a broad stroke. 0:48:26.040 --> 0:48:30.200 But there's got to be a happy medium where willful 0:48:30.400 --> 0:48:35.560 withholding of evidence. Prosecutors have got to be held accountable 0:48:35.560 --> 0:48:37.200 and a lot of this shit would go away in 0:48:37.239 --> 0:48:41.160 my opinion. I mean, you know, Judge Janine Janine Piro, 0:48:41.520 --> 0:48:45.640 the Fox commentator in the case of Jeffrey Dskovic, she 0:48:45.880 --> 0:48:49.400 fought DNA testing for a long time. You know, she 0:48:49.480 --> 0:48:53.600 went off to go run for office, and then her successor, Janetdfiori, said, 0:48:53.600 --> 0:48:56.400 of course, we'll test the DNA. The DNA was tested 0:48:56.480 --> 0:48:58.640 and it immediately pointed to another person. 0:49:00.160 --> 0:49:04.040 Season four of Romful Conviction, Episode eight, Jeffrey Deskovic. 0:49:05.200 --> 0:49:07.400 And then the trial comes in. Just before the trial, 0:49:07.920 --> 0:49:11.520 the results of the DNA test comes back from the 0:49:11.560 --> 0:49:15.759 FBI laboratory, which shows that the seamen found and the 0:49:15.840 --> 0:49:16.960 victim didn't. 0:49:16.680 --> 0:49:18.760 Match me, right, because remember she was raped. 0:49:19.040 --> 0:49:21.839 She was raped, yes, And by the way, the lieutenant 0:49:21.880 --> 0:49:25.640 who oversaw everything. In the letter that he penned to 0:49:25.719 --> 0:49:29.800 the FBI asking them to expedite the testing. He wrote 0:49:29.840 --> 0:49:32.640 in the letter that the DNA testing would either show 0:49:32.719 --> 0:49:36.399 my guilt or it would exonerate me. But when it 0:49:36.440 --> 0:49:40.680 came back and it didn't match me, my lawyer did 0:49:40.719 --> 0:49:44.279 try to get the indictment dismissed against me based on that, 0:49:44.440 --> 0:49:46.080 but the judge denied that motion. 0:49:47.120 --> 0:49:52.560 That alone seems so just incomprehensible to me. I mean, 0:49:53.160 --> 0:49:55.680 the judge is impartial, right, we know the prosecutor has 0:49:55.719 --> 0:49:59.040 an agenda, but the judge's impartial. Yeah, I don't know, 0:49:59.080 --> 0:50:01.720 I don't understand. You know that back then DNA wasn't 0:50:02.280 --> 0:50:03.399 it wasn't as well known. 0:50:03.480 --> 0:50:05.879 But to be clear, I mean, DNA started being used 0:50:05.920 --> 0:50:08.840 in the court system as early as nineteen eighty seven, 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:11.920 and this we're on trial now in nineteen ninety, so 0:50:12.000 --> 0:50:14.880 it's been around for three years. So while not in 0:50:14.960 --> 0:50:19.440 currency like now, it is not exactly totally unknown. 0:50:19.400 --> 0:50:21.320 Right, and it's perfect I mean. 0:50:21.280 --> 0:50:22.720 Right, it's the gold standard. 0:50:22.880 --> 0:50:27.560 Yeah, so your DNA doesn't match. This is an inconvenient 0:50:27.680 --> 0:50:32.600 truth for the authorities, and the judge allows this. This 0:50:32.719 --> 0:50:36.920 circus to go on. Meanwhile, let's spend a moment talking 0:50:36.960 --> 0:50:42.160 about the actual perpetrator. Yes, because every time, and I 0:50:42.200 --> 0:50:44.719 sound like a broken record when I say this, but 0:50:44.880 --> 0:50:49.080 every time that somebody like you gets convicted wrongfully, the 0:50:49.120 --> 0:50:52.640 actual perpetrator, they stop looking for him. Right, the case 0:50:52.719 --> 0:50:56.680 is closed, And in this case, the consequences were very real. 0:50:57.000 --> 0:51:01.120 Yes, school teacher Patricia Morrison who had a couple of kids. 0:51:01.120 --> 0:51:04.799 She was from Peak Skill, and she was killed by 0:51:04.800 --> 0:51:08.080 the stained perpetrator, Stephen Cunningham. She was killed three and 0:51:08.080 --> 0:51:11.279 a half years later as a result of Cunningham being 0:51:11.360 --> 0:51:14.120 left free on the street while I was doing time 0:51:14.239 --> 0:51:15.000 for his crime. 0:51:15.520 --> 0:51:18.640 Now you say, the real perpetrator, how do we know that? 0:51:18.840 --> 0:51:21.520 Well, here, great, that's a great question. I'm so glad 0:51:21.600 --> 0:51:26.840 you asked. Because the DNA matched him, because he got 0:51:26.840 --> 0:51:30.960 caught for the second murder Patricia Morrison, which resulted in 0:51:31.000 --> 0:51:33.640 his being incarcerated and having to give up a DNA 0:51:33.800 --> 0:51:36.880 sample which was put into the data bank. And so 0:51:36.920 --> 0:51:41.000 when I eventually got the further testing with the Innocence 0:51:41.040 --> 0:51:47.239 Projects help, it matched him. Then he subsequently confessed and 0:51:47.320 --> 0:51:48.560 he played guilty in court. 0:51:48.760 --> 0:51:51.719 When did this happen that happened. 0:51:51.239 --> 0:51:54.239 Twelve and a half years after he killed a second victim. 0:51:54.360 --> 0:51:59.600 Well, so, Patricia Morrison, yes, today would be probably a 0:51:59.680 --> 0:52:02.680 LUs sitting around with her grandchildren, you know, probably be 0:52:02.680 --> 0:52:05.200 a retired school teacher by now having a nice life. 0:52:05.239 --> 0:52:07.480 Her children would have grown up as they deserve too, 0:52:07.520 --> 0:52:10.440 as everyone deserves to with their mother. The rest of 0:52:10.440 --> 0:52:14.879 her family wouldn't have gone through this horrendous loss. None 0:52:14.880 --> 0:52:16.759 of it had to happen except for the fact that 0:52:16.840 --> 0:52:20.520 they went on this crazy witch hunt to convict you, 0:52:20.760 --> 0:52:23.400 Jeffrey Deskovic, of a crime that they knew you didn't commit. 0:52:25.000 --> 0:52:29.279 So he was exonerated, got millions of dollars from Westchester 0:52:29.320 --> 0:52:32.400 County and Putnam County, which the taxpayers should be livid 0:52:32.440 --> 0:52:34.760 about that. You know, this case was allowed to happen, 0:52:35.000 --> 0:52:37.600 and the same thing in Damien's case. They were you know, 0:52:37.680 --> 0:52:40.640 the seven or eight years was spent with a guy 0:52:40.719 --> 0:52:45.120 on death row. Seven or eight years was spent fighting 0:52:45.680 --> 0:52:50.680 DNA testing because of the finality of judgment concept in 0:52:50.719 --> 0:52:52.719 our legal system, which is absurd. 0:52:53.920 --> 0:52:56.719 Years later they do DNA testing, find out that the 0:52:56.760 --> 0:52:58.600 DNA does not match me or the other two guys 0:52:58.640 --> 0:53:01.600 they convicted to this they still have not run that 0:53:01.680 --> 0:53:04.640 DNA through CODIS to see who it matches. They refuse 0:53:04.760 --> 0:53:05.120 to do that. 0:53:05.960 --> 0:53:08.799 Yeah, which is so strange because in a case like this, 0:53:09.320 --> 0:53:11.680 especially in the small community, the people who are doing 0:53:11.680 --> 0:53:14.200 investigating live in that community. By definition, When you have 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:16.720 somebody out there who's capable of this sort of pure evil, 0:53:17.520 --> 0:53:20.360 you would think, if for no other reason than purely 0:53:20.400 --> 0:53:22.759 selfish reasons, you would want to get that person off 0:53:22.800 --> 0:53:26.520 the street. But that's not what happened, and it happens 0:53:26.600 --> 0:53:31.040 too frequently that these various factors combine to result in 0:53:31.080 --> 0:53:32.480 a tragic outcome. 0:53:32.719 --> 0:53:36.000 And what people don't realize also, you know, just most 0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:38.840 people's knowledge of the legal system comes from watching TV, 0:53:39.160 --> 0:53:41.840 and it fosters this idea that these people, these judges, 0:53:41.920 --> 0:53:45.400 these prosecutors, these attorney generals, that they have these positions 0:53:45.440 --> 0:53:48.520 because there's somehow moral people. They're good people who are 0:53:48.520 --> 0:53:51.799 looking out for society. In actual fact, these are politicians, 0:53:52.000 --> 0:53:55.799 just like senators, just like congressmen. Their number one priority 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:58.279 is winning that next election. So they are going to 0:53:58.360 --> 0:54:01.960 do or that next case exactly whatever the community is 0:54:02.280 --> 0:54:04.160 pressuring them to do. That's the way they're going to 0:54:04.280 --> 0:54:06.120 lean because they want to win the next election. 0:54:11.360 --> 0:54:14.520 The legal system should be about finding the truth and 0:54:14.560 --> 0:54:17.120 if there's reason to believe that somebody has a wrongful 0:54:17.160 --> 0:54:20.600 conviction claim, especially with the advent of DNA technology, which 0:54:20.680 --> 0:54:22.839 you know, that's a new that was a new thing. 0:54:23.560 --> 0:54:28.319 The fact that a prosecutor can fight DNA testing like 0:54:28.480 --> 0:54:30.480 they did in Damien's case for eight or nine years, 0:54:30.840 --> 0:54:33.680 like they did in Jeffrey Dskovic's case, which resulted in 0:54:33.719 --> 0:54:37.080 the death of another innocent human being, it's just outrageous. 0:54:36.800 --> 0:54:38.680 You know. And that's true too in the Central Park 0:54:38.719 --> 0:54:42.520 five case, where Linda Fairstein prosecuted those five kids even 0:54:42.560 --> 0:54:45.040 though she knew she had the evidence, she knew they 0:54:45.040 --> 0:54:47.840 didn't do it, and they had every reason to suspect 0:54:47.840 --> 0:54:50.279 that Matthias Rays was the actual killer. Ye, and then 0:54:50.320 --> 0:54:52.560 he went out and raped three other women and killed 0:54:52.560 --> 0:54:54.120 one of them in front of her kids. I mean, 0:54:54.200 --> 0:54:56.799 it's like, I mean, I'm getting the shells just thinking 0:54:56.840 --> 0:54:59.360 about it. Like that is so bad and we should 0:54:59.480 --> 0:55:01.719 all want that to end, right. 0:55:02.320 --> 0:55:05.120 I'm telling you, If some tougher laws were passed about 0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:07.960 prosecutors being held accountable for their actions, I think a 0:55:08.040 --> 0:55:10.640 lot of the shit would end, it's about winning at 0:55:10.640 --> 0:55:13.160 all costs. It's not about the search for the truth. 0:55:13.320 --> 0:55:16.760 And again, I'm friends with a prosecutor. I know many 0:55:16.800 --> 0:55:19.880 good prosecutors. There's good guys out there, so I'm not 0:55:19.920 --> 0:55:22.680 saying every prosecutor is like that. But it's the system 0:55:22.760 --> 0:55:25.719 is human. It's the reason you cannot have a death 0:55:25.760 --> 0:55:29.200 penalty because the system is human and it's so easy. 0:55:29.239 --> 0:55:33.280 We see with Damien how an innocent person can be killed. 0:55:33.800 --> 0:55:36.440 And so I've spent a lot of times talking to 0:55:36.480 --> 0:55:40.120 the mothers of victims of violent crime, and they want vengeance. 0:55:40.160 --> 0:55:42.600 And I understand that desire to have vengeance. And I 0:55:42.600 --> 0:55:44.239 don't want to look a mother in the eye and 0:55:44.239 --> 0:55:47.520 say to her, you don't morally have the right to 0:55:48.320 --> 0:55:51.920 want the death of the killer of your child. But 0:55:52.000 --> 0:55:54.640 we don't even have to get to that moral place 0:55:54.800 --> 0:55:59.080 because the death of one innocent person on death row, 0:55:59.280 --> 0:56:01.000 to me, means you can can't have a death penalty 0:56:01.040 --> 0:56:03.760 because the system is fallible. It's run by human beings, 0:56:03.960 --> 0:56:06.120 some of whom want to win at all costs. 0:56:06.400 --> 0:56:08.759 No, that's the argument I have with anybody who's pro 0:56:08.840 --> 0:56:12.000 death penalty. I always say, okay, what percentage of innocent people, 0:56:12.040 --> 0:56:15.000 Are you okay with executive exactly ten percent? I mean, 0:56:15.040 --> 0:56:16.960 we know that of the people that have been exonerated 0:56:16.960 --> 0:56:19.680 from death row, there's proof that four percent of people 0:56:19.840 --> 0:56:22.120 that were on death row are innocent. But we don't 0:56:22.160 --> 0:56:24.319 know how many others were executed that were innocent as well, 0:56:24.320 --> 0:56:28.359 because most of those cases just literally die when that 0:56:28.400 --> 0:56:31.880 death takes place. No one goes and investigates those cases. 0:56:32.080 --> 0:56:34.000 I want to say too, there was one period of 0:56:34.000 --> 0:56:39.160 time where Harry Conic Senior was theda in New Orleans 0:56:39.160 --> 0:56:41.600 and he put eight people on death row, and six 0:56:41.640 --> 0:56:44.279 of them were exonerated. I don't know whether the other 0:56:44.320 --> 0:56:46.439 two are innocent or guilty or what became of them, 0:56:46.480 --> 0:56:49.759 but that was a pretty scary time right there. And 0:56:49.800 --> 0:56:53.000 there was that amazing sixty minutes piece where another prosecutor 0:56:53.000 --> 0:56:56.239 from New Orleans actually came forward and with tears and 0:56:56.280 --> 0:56:59.359 said that you know, he feels terrible to this day 0:56:59.360 --> 0:57:01.480 about a guy that he put on death row that 0:57:01.520 --> 0:57:03.680 he knew was innocent, and he witheld the evidence, and 0:57:03.719 --> 0:57:06.600 he talks about his sort of perverse motives and it's 0:57:06.680 --> 0:57:09.440 just not a thing, like the death penalty is not 0:57:09.480 --> 0:57:12.560 a thing, and just a slight divergence. You know, when 0:57:12.600 --> 0:57:16.320 you said earlier that the typical exonnery gets a million 0:57:16.360 --> 0:57:19.439 dollars a year, the typical exunery actually gets nothing, right. 0:57:19.520 --> 0:57:21.560 I mean, some of them get paid, but even then 0:57:21.600 --> 0:57:25.000 it varies wildly from whether they get paid thousands of 0:57:25.080 --> 0:57:27.800 dollars or tens of thousands, or in the rare case 0:57:27.880 --> 0:57:30.400 like Jeffrey Eskobic, they actually did manage to get millions 0:57:30.440 --> 0:57:32.680 of dollars. But those are rare. You have to prove 0:57:32.720 --> 0:57:35.560 civil rights violations. And I'll never forget there was a 0:57:35.560 --> 0:57:38.480 guy who actually was friendly with he's gone now, but 0:57:39.160 --> 0:57:43.360 he was sentenced to death in Louisiana and came within 0:57:44.120 --> 0:57:48.720 days of being executed before somebody found with a microscope 0:57:48.760 --> 0:57:52.560 and some brilliant scientific research was able to prove with 0:57:52.640 --> 0:57:56.400 DNA that he was innocent, and he was exonerated and freed, 0:57:56.520 --> 0:58:00.200 and he was awarded fourteen and a half million dollars, 0:58:00.320 --> 0:58:02.280 and the State of Louisiana appealed all the way to 0:58:02.320 --> 0:58:05.120 the US Supreme Court, and the Supreme Court overturned the 0:58:05.160 --> 0:58:08.120 award five to four. He had proven that they had 0:58:08.160 --> 0:58:11.400 willfully prosecuted him while knowing that he was innocent, and 0:58:11.440 --> 0:58:14.560 the Supreme Court made some bizarre ruling that it wasn't 0:58:14.600 --> 0:58:18.560 the responsibility of the prosecutors to train the younger prosecutors, 0:58:18.600 --> 0:58:21.160 that they had to turn over culpatory evidence, and that 0:58:21.200 --> 0:58:23.560 he had to prove a pattern of misconduct. You know, 0:58:23.880 --> 0:58:27.360 it was just totally nuts. And he wrote an op 0:58:27.520 --> 0:58:30.200 ed in the New York Times where he said, I 0:58:30.240 --> 0:58:34.440 don't understand why the prosecutor who tried to kill me, 0:58:34.960 --> 0:58:38.640 knowing I was innocent, wouldn't be charged with attempted murder. Yeah, 0:58:38.840 --> 0:58:41.520 I mean, rest in peace. He was a wonderful guy. 0:58:41.680 --> 0:58:43.760 And what you know, I had breakfast with him actually 0:58:44.000 --> 0:58:46.200 within days of the time the Supreme Court overturned his 0:58:46.240 --> 0:58:49.000 award and he got nothing. I was happy to be alive. 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:51.280 And I'm glad you said what you said, Joe, because 0:58:51.320 --> 0:58:54.840 I also believed that. I still believe in in people. 0:58:54.840 --> 0:58:57.920 I still believe in in prosecutors and police, and I 0:58:57.960 --> 0:58:59.800 believe in a system of laws. And I think that 0:58:59.840 --> 0:59:02.800 the the large majority of people in our system are 0:59:02.840 --> 0:59:04.800 good people. I think most of the judges are good. 0:59:04.960 --> 0:59:07.240 But the ones that are bad, we should all want 0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:10.200 to get rid of them because they do such terrible 0:59:10.280 --> 0:59:12.600 damage that they do damage to the reputation of the 0:59:12.600 --> 0:59:15.760 profession as a whole as well. And these stories are real, 0:59:15.800 --> 0:59:19.640 These are real people, right, Richard Glossip. It's unimaginable, And 0:59:19.680 --> 0:59:22.640 I'm glad you brought that up too, because what the 0:59:22.760 --> 0:59:26.080 fuck kind of sense does it make that before they 0:59:26.120 --> 0:59:30.240 execute you, they go through this torture, like literal torture. 0:59:30.280 --> 0:59:32.680 And you know, there was a guy in Virginia whose 0:59:32.680 --> 0:59:34.760 case I've been involved with, and thankfully we were able 0:59:34.800 --> 0:59:38.960 to prevent his execution because he's innocent, guy Naman Bontelugus. 0:59:39.400 --> 0:59:43.200 And during the process of you know, working through his case, 0:59:43.400 --> 0:59:46.800 I learned that they have a practice in the Commonwealth 0:59:46.840 --> 0:59:50.200 of Virginia where I think it's fifteen days or three 0:59:50.280 --> 0:59:53.400 weeks before your execution, they move you to another cell 0:59:53.480 --> 0:59:55.520 where you to have none of your books. You have 0:59:55.680 --> 0:59:58.960 basically nothing. The lights are on, like you said, the 0:59:59.000 --> 1:00:01.320 whole time, and they come and check on you every 1:00:01.320 --> 1:00:03.840 fifteen minutes, So they wake you up every fifteen minutes 1:00:04.240 --> 1:00:06.080 and go, hey, just want to make sure Joe everything 1:00:06.160 --> 1:00:08.160 okay in there, Like I just want to you know, 1:00:08.240 --> 1:00:13.720 like what what I mean, Well, who came up with that? 1:00:13.800 --> 1:00:15.520 Well, I think they're trying to wear you down. So 1:00:15.680 --> 1:00:17.960 why so you just accept your death so that you 1:00:17.960 --> 1:00:22.040 don't make a scene for the witnesses who are experiencing it. 1:00:22.120 --> 1:00:22.800 Is that what it is? 1:00:22.840 --> 1:00:25.000 I don't know, I mean, and no one's told me that, 1:00:25.040 --> 1:00:26.720 but I just feel like they're just trying to wear 1:00:26.760 --> 1:00:29.000 you down so you don't fight back. And Glossop told 1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:31.360 me himself, like he was so tired that, you know, 1:00:31.400 --> 1:00:33.760 he was accepting of his fate even though he knew 1:00:33.760 --> 1:00:35.840 it was wrong, you know, and if it wasn't for 1:00:35.880 --> 1:00:38.200 the wrong drug, he'd be gone. 1:00:38.880 --> 1:00:43.120 It's so incredibly troubling because like, why just why you 1:00:43.200 --> 1:00:45.520 got the guy you wanted, you got the actual killer. 1:00:45.560 --> 1:00:48.480 You guys did your job right, It's done. What do 1:00:48.480 --> 1:00:50.880 you need the extra body for what? And there's so 1:00:50.960 --> 1:00:52.600 many richer Glossops out there, I mean. 1:00:52.840 --> 1:00:58.200 The other weird and hard dynamic is that the family 1:00:58.480 --> 1:01:02.480 of the victim in that case believes the Golossip is guilty. 1:01:02.640 --> 1:01:08.400 And for years, the families of the West Memphis Three, sorry, 1:01:08.600 --> 1:01:12.280 the families of the victims, the parents of Michael Moore, 1:01:12.480 --> 1:01:16.880 Christopher Buyers, and Stevie branch It thought we were horrible people, 1:01:17.040 --> 1:01:19.520 just Hollywood elites, and so funny when I don't call 1:01:19.560 --> 1:01:21.960 the Hollywood elite. I live an hour north of Manhattan, 1:01:21.960 --> 1:01:26.040 and you know that as far away from Hollywood as possible, 1:01:26.360 --> 1:01:30.000 But you know that somehow Hollywood elites conspire to get 1:01:30.040 --> 1:01:32.920 these devil worshipers out of prison. For years, they hated us, 1:01:33.320 --> 1:01:36.520 call us names, and that's painful because you don't want 1:01:36.520 --> 1:01:39.520 to as makers of these things. You want to shine 1:01:39.560 --> 1:01:41.400 a light on the truth, but you don't want to 1:01:41.480 --> 1:01:45.320 cause the famili's pain. And that's the disservice that these 1:01:45.440 --> 1:01:49.880 police officials and prosecutors who maintain this facade of righteousness, 1:01:50.160 --> 1:01:53.000 that's the damage they inflict on the family members because 1:01:53.040 --> 1:01:57.760 a there's no justice because the real killers are running free. 1:01:58.160 --> 1:02:01.400 And secondly, the healing process. You know, we're both parents 1:02:01.400 --> 1:02:04.360 and I can't imagine, you know, anything worse than losing 1:02:04.360 --> 1:02:07.080 a child, and there's no closure for losing a child, 1:02:07.160 --> 1:02:11.160 but there certainly can be finality to the experience, and 1:02:11.200 --> 1:02:16.640 your healing process is predicated on knowing justice has been served. 1:02:16.920 --> 1:02:19.960 And so we came along and upset the apple cart 1:02:19.960 --> 1:02:22.080 by coming out with a film that's saying, hey, everything, 1:02:22.120 --> 1:02:25.440 the police and prosecution and all your ten thousand meetings 1:02:25.440 --> 1:02:29.320 with these people is wrong, and you're putting these families 1:02:29.480 --> 1:02:34.160 through a double tragedy. And for years they hated our guts, 1:02:34.200 --> 1:02:36.920 and two of the three families came to accept our 1:02:36.920 --> 1:02:39.840 point of view by the end of the Second Paradise Loss, 1:02:40.520 --> 1:02:43.720 but even by the time of the Third Paradise Loss, 1:02:43.720 --> 1:02:46.640 which came out in twenty eleven and coincided with their release. 1:02:47.160 --> 1:02:50.120 One of the families. You know, the movie was nominated 1:02:50.120 --> 1:02:52.280 for an Academy Award and some other prizes. And I 1:02:52.360 --> 1:02:56.400 mentioned that only because these families took the time to 1:02:56.560 --> 1:02:59.400 write to the Academy and to the Director's Guild and 1:02:59.440 --> 1:03:02.400 every place that had nominated us for a prize, to 1:03:02.440 --> 1:03:05.160 say that these films are works of fiction, that we 1:03:05.360 --> 1:03:08.960 manipulated them, we lied to them, that the West Memphis 1:03:09.040 --> 1:03:12.240 Three are guilty. And I look, I have, even though 1:03:12.280 --> 1:03:15.240 they hate us, I have endless reservoirs of sympathy for them, 1:03:15.280 --> 1:03:19.320 because again, going through this experience is every parent's worst nightmare, 1:03:19.360 --> 1:03:22.200 and then to be victimized by the system again because 1:03:22.240 --> 1:03:25.600 the police and the prosecution have lied to them. That's 1:03:25.640 --> 1:03:27.920 the other part that people don't really think about, is 1:03:27.960 --> 1:03:30.480 what happens to the victims when the truth is just 1:03:30.640 --> 1:03:31.320 not the truth. 1:03:31.760 --> 1:03:33.880 Who do you think killed those kids? 1:03:34.680 --> 1:03:37.760 Oh, I don't want to do. I don't want to 1:03:37.800 --> 1:03:41.600 do to somebody else what I think was done to Damien. 1:03:42.720 --> 1:03:44.640 What I do know is that the case needs to 1:03:44.640 --> 1:03:50.680 be reopened. That we all know that no sane prosecutor 1:03:50.880 --> 1:03:55.200 would knowingly let convicted teen Satanist child killers out into 1:03:55.240 --> 1:03:57.600 the real world if they had any kind of belief 1:03:57.640 --> 1:04:00.000 that they were guilty. If they did, because the argus 1:04:00.160 --> 1:04:03.120 been in Arkansas amongst some of these officials is there 1:04:03.200 --> 1:04:05.880 was so much pressure from Johnny Depp and Eddie Vedder 1:04:05.920 --> 1:04:09.720 and Peter Jackson. Well, shame on you. You're gonna let a 1:04:09.720 --> 1:04:13.760 convicted child killer who you believe is capable of castrating 1:04:13.760 --> 1:04:16.600 little boys in a Satanic ritual. You're going to let 1:04:16.600 --> 1:04:19.440 them out after eighteen years because Johnny Depp said to 1:04:19.760 --> 1:04:22.400 So if that's true, shame on you. And if you 1:04:22.440 --> 1:04:25.080 don't believe that and they're actually innocent, as we all know, 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:28.120 then shame on you for sticking with this Alfred plea 1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:30.960 and not looking into the case. As we all know, 1:04:31.080 --> 1:04:35.000 there's some evidence that points very directly to one of 1:04:35.040 --> 1:04:38.400 the stepfathers. I don't want to say he's guilty or not, 1:04:39.040 --> 1:04:42.240 but a competent authority needs to look into this, and 1:04:42.320 --> 1:04:45.240 they refuse to because they're hiding behind the Alfred plea. 1:04:45.280 --> 1:04:47.960 And that's the crime here. I mean, there are some 1:04:48.000 --> 1:04:50.840 simple abuses that I think could easily be remedied. One 1:04:50.880 --> 1:04:55.320 is prosecutorial accountability. There's way too much misconduct that needs 1:04:55.320 --> 1:04:58.480 to be arrested, and I think finding the balance between 1:04:58.600 --> 1:05:01.280 making it so scary that a prosecutor doesn't even want 1:05:01.320 --> 1:05:04.040 to take the job, which I understand, versus like just 1:05:04.240 --> 1:05:07.720 wilful withholding of evidence for example, it just needs to 1:05:07.760 --> 1:05:10.720 be stopped. The other thing is that people get a 1:05:10.800 --> 1:05:14.120 vested interest in staying on a case forever. Prosecutors stay 1:05:14.160 --> 1:05:16.800 on a case. Judges in some states like Arkansas are 1:05:16.840 --> 1:05:19.200 allowed to stay on the case if something is up 1:05:19.200 --> 1:05:21.400 for review. The original people should be out of the 1:05:21.440 --> 1:05:24.560 picture immediately. I mean, it just doesn't make sense to me. 1:05:25.520 --> 1:05:29.320 One of the cases that the Supreme Court finally is 1:05:29.360 --> 1:05:32.320 going to hear is the Curtis Flowers case, and we 1:05:32.440 --> 1:05:34.680 profiled Curtis Flowers. I mean, he's the guy I think 1:05:34.800 --> 1:05:37.280 is totally innocent, and we profiled that case on a 1:05:37.320 --> 1:05:40.240 show I do call wrong Man, and the guy has 1:05:40.240 --> 1:05:44.560 been tried. He's the most tried inmate in the history 1:05:44.600 --> 1:05:48.000 of American jurisprudence. Jurisprudence. 1:05:48.560 --> 1:05:50.720 He said, yes, that's right. 1:05:50.760 --> 1:05:55.000 I'm better at filmmaking than vocabulary. He's been tried six 1:05:55.080 --> 1:06:00.640 times and each time it's the same prosecutor, and they 1:06:00.720 --> 1:06:04.919 keep affirming his conviction again, circumstantial evidence and so many 1:06:04.960 --> 1:06:08.120 holes in that case. And thankfully the Supreme Court a 1:06:08.120 --> 1:06:10.080 few weeks ago said they're going to hear the case again. 1:06:10.120 --> 1:06:12.120 But even the Supreme Court hearing the case, if it's 1:06:12.120 --> 1:06:14.800 a good result and the state appeal is overturned by 1:06:14.800 --> 1:06:17.520 the Supreme Court, then it gets remanded back to you know, 1:06:17.600 --> 1:06:20.120 to the state to determine if they're going to try 1:06:20.200 --> 1:06:22.480 him a seventh time, which is absurd, and it's the 1:06:22.520 --> 1:06:23.480 same prosecutor. 1:06:23.560 --> 1:06:26.880 It's like crazy, right, the taxpayer dollars that are being 1:06:27.000 --> 1:06:30.040 expended on this if, I mean, it's probably the least 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:33.000 important aspect of it, but it's still a remarkable amount 1:06:33.040 --> 1:06:35.880 of time and energy and resources being devoted to persecuting 1:06:35.880 --> 1:06:38.920 this one guy, Curtis Flowers, who was convicted of murdering 1:06:39.040 --> 1:06:42.960 four people in a furniture store in Mississippi. 1:06:42.360 --> 1:06:46.680 Mississippi, four white people. He's a black man. And you 1:06:46.720 --> 1:06:49.760 know that's the other huge problem, as I don't need 1:06:49.800 --> 1:06:53.200 to tell anyone that the extreme racial inequity is in 1:06:53.240 --> 1:06:54.160 our system, you know. 1:06:54.840 --> 1:06:57.600 So we don't have a ton of time left. I 1:06:57.640 --> 1:06:59.640 do want to ask you what do you think about 1:06:59.640 --> 1:07:04.920 the role of media in the criminal justice debate? Right now? 1:07:05.680 --> 1:07:08.120 And then I have one more question for you before 1:07:08.120 --> 1:07:09.320 we go to final thoughts. 1:07:09.400 --> 1:07:12.680 Sure, you know, I think one size does not fit all. 1:07:12.760 --> 1:07:15.400 There's a lot of irresponsible reporting. I mean, we saw 1:07:15.400 --> 1:07:19.760 in the Amanda Knox case that reporters were horrible in 1:07:19.760 --> 1:07:23.160 festering the image of Foxy Noxy and making her seem 1:07:23.200 --> 1:07:26.480 guilty and really did her a disservice in her case. 1:07:26.560 --> 1:07:28.560 And same thing with Echoles. I mean, you know, the 1:07:28.600 --> 1:07:31.640 local media down there was just fanning the flames of 1:07:31.720 --> 1:07:34.840 the monster of the daily headline and the daily news report. 1:07:35.520 --> 1:07:39.320 So there's a lot of irresponsible reporting. There's a lot 1:07:39.360 --> 1:07:42.240 of true crime And I hate that phrase again because 1:07:42.240 --> 1:07:46.280 it somehow implies like I'm considered a true crime filmmaker. 1:07:46.320 --> 1:07:48.360 I'd rather not be known as a true crime filmmaker, 1:07:48.360 --> 1:07:50.760 you know, I'm a filmmaker who's involved in the criminal 1:07:50.840 --> 1:07:54.520 justice system. True crime implies that you're wallowing in the 1:07:54.560 --> 1:07:57.520 misery of others, you know, for entertainment purposes, and that's 1:07:57.560 --> 1:07:59.480 the last thing I'm doing. But some of that stuff 1:07:59.480 --> 1:08:03.000 on some of the networks does that. So I think 1:08:03.040 --> 1:08:08.480 the role of smart, talented storytellers who are shining a 1:08:08.560 --> 1:08:12.080 light on criminal justice abuse has never been more important. 1:08:12.240 --> 1:08:14.320 First of all, for the first time because of the 1:08:14.400 --> 1:08:17.160 last couple of years, with the advent of streaming and 1:08:17.200 --> 1:08:20.760 the growing popularity of documentary in general. You know, when 1:08:20.800 --> 1:08:23.840 I started making films twenty five years ago, if you 1:08:23.840 --> 1:08:26.400 didn't sell your documentary to PBS or HBO, you weren't 1:08:26.400 --> 1:08:29.160 selling your documentary. And now there's just you know, unscripted 1:08:29.240 --> 1:08:31.280 series were never heard of. I mean, that was just 1:08:31.360 --> 1:08:34.479 not even a concept. And with that also has come, 1:08:35.080 --> 1:08:37.600 you know, the blurring of the line between entertainment and 1:08:37.720 --> 1:08:43.160 news at networks has become so blurry that certain stories 1:08:43.160 --> 1:08:45.120 aren't covered. You know, the networks are owned by a 1:08:45.120 --> 1:08:47.760 handful of corporations after all, and I like all the 1:08:47.760 --> 1:08:50.559 companies I work with, but there are certain stories that 1:08:50.720 --> 1:08:53.240 they won't cover for fear of offending advertise. I'm not 1:08:53.320 --> 1:08:55.320 just talking in the criminal justice realm, but there's certain 1:08:55.360 --> 1:08:59.240 stories that either they won't rate, you know, in other words, 1:08:59.280 --> 1:09:03.680 the audience won't be big enough, or they'll offend certain advertisers. 1:09:03.720 --> 1:09:08.120 So today in twenty nineteen, also because of the demise 1:09:08.200 --> 1:09:11.120 of print journalism because of the Internet, you know, newspapers 1:09:11.120 --> 1:09:15.240 have been gutted. You know, I think the independent documentarians 1:09:15.280 --> 1:09:19.760 are doing some of the most robust social justice reporting, 1:09:19.960 --> 1:09:23.839 and so that kind of filmmaking couldn't be more important 1:09:23.840 --> 1:09:26.800 and more timely. But it's hard to paint it all 1:09:26.840 --> 1:09:29.080 with the same brush because there's a lot of horrible 1:09:29.120 --> 1:09:33.280 reporting and irresponsible reporting. But generally I think it's a 1:09:33.280 --> 1:09:33.799 good thing. 1:09:34.880 --> 1:09:39.799 For people that are listening now and who are hearing 1:09:39.960 --> 1:09:45.040 the amazing story of how you sort of almost accidentally 1:09:45.120 --> 1:09:47.800 got involved in this or serendipitously got involved in this 1:09:47.920 --> 1:09:50.760 work and then ended up having an outsize impact. I know, 1:09:51.200 --> 1:09:55.080 for me, more than ever, I'm getting increase from people. 1:09:55.120 --> 1:09:56.880 How do I help? What do I do? I want 1:09:56.880 --> 1:09:58.599 to be involved? I want to do something. I listen 1:09:58.640 --> 1:10:00.720 to your show, or I saw some a TV or 1:10:00.760 --> 1:10:03.240 I came to an Innocence Project event, And what would 1:10:03.240 --> 1:10:05.880 you tell people that are listening now that want to 1:10:05.880 --> 1:10:07.960 get involved, What's what's the best way for them to, 1:10:08.520 --> 1:10:10.360 you know, make a difference. Someone who's not you know, 1:10:10.680 --> 1:10:13.200 isn't a rich person, but it's someone who has a 1:10:13.200 --> 1:10:16.040 heart and who hears about Richard Glossip or hears about 1:10:16.120 --> 1:10:19.280 so many of the other people Yvonne Tellegus or Rob 1:10:19.280 --> 1:10:21.479 will who I recently visited on death row in Texas, 1:10:21.520 --> 1:10:24.280 who's as innocent as as could be. What do you 1:10:24.320 --> 1:10:24.920 tell these people? 1:10:24.960 --> 1:10:27.439 I mean, first of all is awareness. You know, I myself, 1:10:27.479 --> 1:10:30.400 before I got involved in this accidentally went because I 1:10:30.439 --> 1:10:32.680 was making a film about something else. I thought I 1:10:32.720 --> 1:10:35.320 had a basic belief that the system works, and it 1:10:35.400 --> 1:10:39.080 works sometimes, but it often fails miserably. So just having 1:10:39.080 --> 1:10:43.720 that basic understanding and awareness is helpful and little actions 1:10:44.040 --> 1:10:48.080 add up to a lot. Again, not saying anything discourteous 1:10:48.120 --> 1:10:52.160 about Johnny Depp or Eddie Vedder or Natalie Mains, those 1:10:52.200 --> 1:10:57.240 guys were amazing. Those names wrote checks and did things 1:10:57.320 --> 1:11:01.800 and did concerts. But what really made the difference, in 1:11:01.840 --> 1:11:04.439 my opinion, really what made a difference in that case 1:11:04.439 --> 1:11:08.799 were tens of thousands of regular people who saw paradise loss, 1:11:08.880 --> 1:11:13.680 who did not have an outsized wallet. But until the 1:11:13.800 --> 1:11:19.040 local politicians and prosecutors are politicians in many municipalities, they 1:11:19.080 --> 1:11:23.240 are elected officials. They didn't start taking the case seriously 1:11:23.320 --> 1:11:27.439 until the local population took the case seriously. And what 1:11:27.640 --> 1:11:31.320 made the local population take the case seriously is tens 1:11:31.400 --> 1:11:34.840 of thousands of people who banded together on this website 1:11:34.880 --> 1:11:38.840 called Free the West Memphis III. Went down religiously to 1:11:38.960 --> 1:11:43.400 every action, every appeal, every hearing. There were thousands of 1:11:43.640 --> 1:11:46.240 regular people from all walks of life who chose to 1:11:46.280 --> 1:11:49.479 take their vacation in Jonesboro, Arkansas, to hold up a 1:11:49.560 --> 1:11:53.000 sign and have their voices heard. At the end of 1:11:53.000 --> 1:11:56.280 the day, a lot of these people who hold positions 1:11:56.320 --> 1:11:59.240 of power, who have this unique power to take your 1:11:59.280 --> 1:12:05.599 liberty away, often unjustly, often justly. Again, I don't think 1:12:05.640 --> 1:12:09.120 every prosecutor is a bad guy, but they are elected 1:12:09.160 --> 1:12:11.840 officials for the most part, and people should wake up 1:12:12.360 --> 1:12:14.600 and if you live in Oklahoma, pay attention to the 1:12:14.680 --> 1:12:15.639 Richard Glossop case. 1:12:15.680 --> 1:12:16.280 I mean, there's. 1:12:16.280 --> 1:12:19.280 Sadly there's a case, and there's a wrongful conviction case. 1:12:19.320 --> 1:12:23.240 Yet probably in every state and just little actions and 1:12:23.280 --> 1:12:25.559 awareness I think go a long way. You don't have 1:12:25.600 --> 1:12:26.479 to write a big check. 1:12:27.280 --> 1:12:31.520 So I guess start by watching learning more. Watch The Wrong. 1:12:31.320 --> 1:12:33.240 Man you can stream on Amazon. 1:12:33.680 --> 1:12:37.960 Watch An Innocent Man, the amazing documentary about the book 1:12:37.960 --> 1:12:40.920 that John Grisham wrote about these cases in Ada, Oklahoma, 1:12:41.000 --> 1:12:44.360 and go to free Robwill dot org. Is there a 1:12:44.439 --> 1:12:45.320 Richard glossupside. 1:12:45.320 --> 1:12:47.799 I'm sure there is if you google Richard glossop and 1:12:47.800 --> 1:12:50.160 why I'm drawing a blank what the website is, But 1:12:50.240 --> 1:12:53.640 just google Richard Glossip and you'll find a lot of supporters. 1:12:53.760 --> 1:12:56.719 There's a guy named Don Knight in Colorado who's running 1:12:56.720 --> 1:13:00.599 that case. He's the tireless, thankless defense attorney who is 1:13:00.800 --> 1:13:04.400 really is doing amazing work. So Don Knight in Colorado 1:13:05.040 --> 1:13:07.439 is a good guy to be in touch with if 1:13:07.520 --> 1:13:10.160 you feel you have something significant to offer, or just 1:13:10.280 --> 1:13:11.200 be aware. 1:13:11.080 --> 1:13:14.160 And one minute speed round. First of all, I want 1:13:14.160 --> 1:13:17.440 to thank you for this has been fun coming Joe Berlinger, 1:13:17.680 --> 1:13:22.800 amazing filmmaker and advocate for the wrongfully convicted, and I'm 1:13:22.800 --> 1:13:25.080 looking forward to doing more work with you. Yeah, me too, 1:13:25.439 --> 1:13:27.880 And like I said, let's sake the last minute or 1:13:27.960 --> 1:13:30.759 two any final thoughts that you have, if you have any. 1:13:31.240 --> 1:13:34.320 You know, we have a criminal justice system sorely in 1:13:34.400 --> 1:13:36.839 need to reform, and I think it's the number one issue. 1:13:37.040 --> 1:13:40.320 The thing we hold most dear as Americans. The thing 1:13:40.360 --> 1:13:43.479 that's set us apart is our personal liberty, and a 1:13:43.560 --> 1:13:47.080 prosecutor has the unique power to take that personal liberty 1:13:47.160 --> 1:13:50.479 away without accountability. And I think it's time to hold 1:13:50.560 --> 1:13:53.080 those people who have the power to take our liberty 1:13:53.120 --> 1:13:55.840 away to be held accountable to a higher standard. And 1:13:55.920 --> 1:13:57.800 I think a lot of these problems would go away. 1:13:57.840 --> 1:14:00.000 But there's all sorts of problems in our criminal jobs 1:14:00.080 --> 1:14:02.200 to system, and people should be aware of it because 1:14:02.280 --> 1:14:05.040 it really needs addressing. I mean, a whole generation has 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:07.479 been locked away over horrible drug laws. I mean, we 1:14:07.479 --> 1:14:09.360 can go on and on and on. You know, we 1:14:09.439 --> 1:14:12.240 have five percent of the world's population and twenty five 1:14:12.280 --> 1:14:14.760 percent of the world's prison population, more than Russia and 1:14:14.840 --> 1:14:18.040 China combined. That's disturbing and goes against who we think 1:14:18.080 --> 1:14:19.200 we are as Americans. 1:14:19.360 --> 1:14:21.640 Yeah, we locked black people up at six times the 1:14:21.720 --> 1:14:24.240 rate of South Africa the height of apartheid. It's all 1:14:24.280 --> 1:14:28.000 a national shame and a disgrace. But absolutely yeah, please 1:14:28.040 --> 1:14:31.679 do get involved, keep listening. We appreciate you being here 1:14:31.720 --> 1:14:33.880 with us. And when you're on a jury, we need 1:14:33.920 --> 1:14:37.759 everybody to show up serve because it's just your fellow 1:14:37.880 --> 1:14:39.559 human being who's up there, and they may be the 1:14:39.600 --> 1:14:43.000 next Damien Echols. So thanks again for listening. This is 1:14:43.040 --> 1:14:56.799 wrongful Connection. Don't forget to give us a fantastic review 1:14:56.840 --> 1:15:00.519 wherever you get your podcasts. It really helps. And I'm 1:15:00.560 --> 1:15:03.200 a proud donor to the Innocence Project and I really 1:15:03.200 --> 1:15:06.320 hope you'll join me in supporting this very important cause 1:15:06.520 --> 1:15:10.200 and helping to prevent future wrongful convictions. Go to Innocence 1:15:10.240 --> 1:15:13.360 Project dot org to learn how to donate and get involved. 1:15:13.720 --> 1:15:16.240 I'd like to thank our production team, Connor Hall and 1:15:16.360 --> 1:15:19.040 Kevin Wartis. The music in the show is by three 1:15:19.080 --> 1:15:22.479 time OSCAR nominated composer Jay Ralph. Be sure to follow 1:15:22.520 --> 1:15:26.000 us on Instagram at Wrongful Conviction and on Facebook at 1:15:26.120 --> 1:15:29.960 Wrongful Conviction Podcast. Wrongful Conviction with Jason Flamm is a 1:15:29.960 --> 1:15:33.799 production of Lava for Good Podcasts and association with Signal 1:15:33.800 --> 1:15:36.639 Company Number one