1 00:00:03,240 --> 00:00:06,480 Speaker 1: Welcome to stuff Mom Never told you from house reports 2 00:00:06,559 --> 00:00:14,760 Speaker 1: dot Com. Hello, and welcome to the podcast. I'm Kristen 3 00:00:15,160 --> 00:00:19,200 Speaker 1: and I'm Caroline. And the idea for this episode on 4 00:00:19,280 --> 00:00:23,840 Speaker 1: women in street art and graffiti first came to me 5 00:00:24,440 --> 00:00:30,960 Speaker 1: when trend pieces on quote unquote female banksies first started 6 00:00:31,000 --> 00:00:35,920 Speaker 1: popping up, because for listeners who aren't aware of banks 7 00:00:35,920 --> 00:00:39,680 Speaker 1: he is the most famous street artist in the world, 8 00:00:40,120 --> 00:00:44,120 Speaker 1: no one knows who he or she is. Um. But 9 00:00:44,640 --> 00:00:47,760 Speaker 1: in more recent years there's been a growing recognition of 10 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,480 Speaker 1: women in the game, and a lot of times they 11 00:00:50,520 --> 00:00:58,080 Speaker 1: are posed as female banksies rather than just being discussed 12 00:00:58,240 --> 00:01:02,240 Speaker 1: as women doing their thing or just like street artists. Yeah. 13 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: I think a little irks successful female street artists more 14 00:01:07,480 --> 00:01:10,600 Speaker 1: than being sometimes called a female street artist or being 15 00:01:10,640 --> 00:01:13,440 Speaker 1: called a female banksy. Yeah, because it's like, hey, I 16 00:01:14,319 --> 00:01:16,200 Speaker 1: take banks the out of the equation. Can I not 17 00:01:16,319 --> 00:01:19,720 Speaker 1: just have my my success and talent judged on its 18 00:01:19,760 --> 00:01:21,759 Speaker 1: own merit? I mean I get I get the headline 19 00:01:21,760 --> 00:01:24,319 Speaker 1: writers trying to provide context for what the articles about, 20 00:01:24,400 --> 00:01:29,039 Speaker 1: especially if you don't know who these street artists are. Um, 21 00:01:29,080 --> 00:01:33,760 Speaker 1: But I can also totally get these lady artists frustration 22 00:01:33,840 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 1: with being compared to Banksy, who's possibly a dude but 23 00:01:37,520 --> 00:01:41,600 Speaker 1: also just continually being called out for their gender. Yeah, 24 00:01:41,600 --> 00:01:45,480 Speaker 1: I mean it's something that reminds me of listicles of 25 00:01:45,800 --> 00:01:50,320 Speaker 1: lady podcasters. There's been so much attention post Cereal and 26 00:01:50,720 --> 00:01:56,160 Speaker 1: Sarah Kanig on women in podcasting, which of course we love, 27 00:01:57,320 --> 00:02:00,280 Speaker 1: but it would be like all of these listicles thing 28 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:05,200 Speaker 1: the new female Mark Marin's, which would probably great on 29 00:02:05,480 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: our nerves a little bit more than just being like 30 00:02:07,480 --> 00:02:11,119 Speaker 1: women in podcasting. Here are some things to listen to. Yeah, 31 00:02:11,160 --> 00:02:13,560 Speaker 1: I can't grow a good T like that, and a 32 00:02:13,600 --> 00:02:16,600 Speaker 1: little soul patch that's an aggressive He does have a 33 00:02:16,600 --> 00:02:18,480 Speaker 1: good t T, right am I thinking of the Yeah, 34 00:02:18,480 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: he's got like a little soul patch thing going on 35 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,000 Speaker 1: in some some bearded inside the Okay, Yeah, I enjoy 36 00:02:24,120 --> 00:02:29,640 Speaker 1: Mark totally. Yeah, his discussion with Gloria Steinham was great. 37 00:02:30,680 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 1: But back to graffiti, because this episode about podcasting we 38 00:02:34,639 --> 00:02:38,239 Speaker 1: could we do know it well, probably better than street 39 00:02:38,280 --> 00:02:42,440 Speaker 1: art and graffiti. But as soon as we started reading 40 00:02:42,520 --> 00:02:45,880 Speaker 1: about the history of women in street art and what 41 00:02:45,919 --> 00:02:49,440 Speaker 1: women in street art have to say today, it intersected 42 00:02:49,560 --> 00:02:53,280 Speaker 1: so many stuff Mom never told you topics. I mean, 43 00:02:53,320 --> 00:02:57,040 Speaker 1: the very issue of being labeled a female fill in 44 00:02:57,080 --> 00:02:59,200 Speaker 1: the blank, wanting to be judged on your own merit 45 00:02:59,280 --> 00:03:02,760 Speaker 1: rather than your under and also the issue of taking 46 00:03:02,880 --> 00:03:09,000 Speaker 1: up public spaces. Yeah, absolutely, and looking at the root 47 00:03:09,200 --> 00:03:13,400 Speaker 1: causes behind why there might be fewer women doing street 48 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:15,720 Speaker 1: art than men, a lot of which have to do 49 00:03:15,919 --> 00:03:20,120 Speaker 1: with street harassment, which we've talked about on the podcast before. Yeah. 50 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:24,840 Speaker 1: Um so just for a very mini history of street 51 00:03:24,919 --> 00:03:26,880 Speaker 1: art and graffiti, and yeah, I know that I'm kind 52 00:03:26,880 --> 00:03:32,320 Speaker 1: of using them synonymously and that's probably not technically correct, 53 00:03:32,400 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: but I'm just I'm using them to to encompass both 54 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:38,640 Speaker 1: graffiti as we think of it in terms of the 55 00:03:38,680 --> 00:03:43,120 Speaker 1: more vandalism style painting and then street art, which is 56 00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:48,240 Speaker 1: a little more like muralistic to possibly make up a word, Um, 57 00:03:48,440 --> 00:03:53,000 Speaker 1: it's so neuralistic, very muralistic. Um, But over the toast, 58 00:03:53,480 --> 00:03:59,520 Speaker 1: a graffiti PhD researcher Alison Stein notes that women were 59 00:03:59,640 --> 00:04:04,080 Speaker 1: quite possibly history's first graffiti artists because don da da 60 00:04:04,120 --> 00:04:10,280 Speaker 1: da cave painting they taken away back, going way back. Yeah. 61 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:16,360 Speaker 1: In archaeologists Dean Snow of Pennsylvania State University published a 62 00:04:16,480 --> 00:04:20,120 Speaker 1: widely covered study suggesting that women made most of the 63 00:04:20,160 --> 00:04:24,760 Speaker 1: earliest cave paintings based on handprint analysis. You know nothing, 64 00:04:24,839 --> 00:04:28,120 Speaker 1: Dean Snow, get it, that's the Game of Thrones reference, 65 00:04:28,160 --> 00:04:31,839 Speaker 1: said John Snow. Now he knows Dean Snow knows a lot. Okay, 66 00:04:32,240 --> 00:04:35,159 Speaker 1: John Snow, However, John Snow not so much. But Dean 67 00:04:35,240 --> 00:04:39,520 Speaker 1: Snow and tiny hands, tiny little lady hands doing cave 68 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: paintings could be the first graffiti. And I also enjoyed 69 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:46,600 Speaker 1: a timeline, a brief timeline of graffiti over at time 70 00:04:46,600 --> 00:04:48,760 Speaker 1: out in New York, because I mean, it's sort of 71 00:04:48,920 --> 00:04:53,520 Speaker 1: a tricky thing to even track down, because graffiti is 72 00:04:53,560 --> 00:04:56,760 Speaker 1: so temporal. I mean, it's often there and then it's gone, obviously, 73 00:04:57,240 --> 00:05:01,880 Speaker 1: and usually done in the cover of darkness, and it's 74 00:05:01,920 --> 00:05:04,960 Speaker 1: done anonymously. I mean, we don't, for instance, know who 75 00:05:05,000 --> 00:05:08,280 Speaker 1: banks he is. Still still don't know. God, I lie 76 00:05:08,320 --> 00:05:11,760 Speaker 1: awake at night, who could it be? Ever since I 77 00:05:11,800 --> 00:05:14,440 Speaker 1: saw exited the gift shop, I haven't been able to sleep. 78 00:05:14,560 --> 00:05:17,800 Speaker 1: I know it's I'm starting to go insane. Actually, But 79 00:05:18,040 --> 00:05:23,080 Speaker 1: tagging has been around sporadically, according to this piece we 80 00:05:23,120 --> 00:05:26,000 Speaker 1: read since the World War two era. Apparently in the 81 00:05:26,080 --> 00:05:31,440 Speaker 1: nineteen forties, g I s were fans of this tag 82 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:35,960 Speaker 1: Kilroy was here with a little stick figure face peering 83 00:05:36,000 --> 00:05:39,239 Speaker 1: over a wall and it knows yeah. And what's funny 84 00:05:39,279 --> 00:05:41,840 Speaker 1: is I remember being a kid and drawing that and 85 00:05:41,920 --> 00:05:45,480 Speaker 1: having no idea of it's, of its history, of its 86 00:05:45,520 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 1: little tagging family tree. But what's so funny is that 87 00:05:49,920 --> 00:05:53,839 Speaker 1: it's its origins are pretty murky. But Kilroy has cousins 88 00:05:53,839 --> 00:05:56,719 Speaker 1: in the UK known as Mr Chad or Chad. I'll 89 00:05:56,720 --> 00:05:59,000 Speaker 1: have to tell my dad that, being that he's a 90 00:05:59,120 --> 00:06:04,599 Speaker 1: chad Um not a hanging Chad though. Oh referencing long 91 00:06:04,720 --> 00:06:10,240 Speaker 1: time election year back um and apparently the Australian equivalent 92 00:06:10,400 --> 00:06:13,480 Speaker 1: is uh foo was here. I mean, I guess if 93 00:06:13,520 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: you are hanging out in the trenches, you know you 94 00:06:16,720 --> 00:06:19,400 Speaker 1: need you need something to do with all that time. 95 00:06:19,880 --> 00:06:22,240 Speaker 1: Over the little bit of skimming we did about Kilroy 96 00:06:22,440 --> 00:06:26,680 Speaker 1: or Fu or Chad's history, it seems like it was 97 00:06:26,800 --> 00:06:32,119 Speaker 1: just this thing, this phenomenon that started happening. Other people 98 00:06:32,160 --> 00:06:36,440 Speaker 1: saw it done, they picked up on it. American soldiers, 99 00:06:36,520 --> 00:06:39,320 Speaker 1: British soldiers, Australian soldiers were all in the same place 100 00:06:39,360 --> 00:06:41,839 Speaker 1: at the same time, so they would start adding to 101 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,800 Speaker 1: each other's cartoons and It's taken on different names in 102 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:50,000 Speaker 1: different countries and regions. Um. But it seems to be 103 00:06:50,040 --> 00:06:56,279 Speaker 1: just a funny thing to deface a random, unsuspecting piece 104 00:06:56,320 --> 00:07:01,720 Speaker 1: of property. So it sounds like it's something that went viral. Um. 105 00:07:01,839 --> 00:07:07,560 Speaker 1: Apparently after famed jazz musician Charlie Parker died, his hardcore 106 00:07:07,680 --> 00:07:13,200 Speaker 1: fans would tag bird lives uh in public spaces. Um. 107 00:07:13,200 --> 00:07:17,200 Speaker 1: But really tagging took off more in the nineteen sixties. 108 00:07:17,200 --> 00:07:20,240 Speaker 1: You would see it sometimes pop up with student protests 109 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,880 Speaker 1: that were going on that would usually have more anarchist 110 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:26,640 Speaker 1: slogans that would be tagged in public spaces. But I 111 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,640 Speaker 1: love this. The tagging trend really started in Philly with 112 00:07:31,680 --> 00:07:35,080 Speaker 1: a guy named Darryl McCrae whose tag was corn bread. 113 00:07:35,440 --> 00:07:38,800 Speaker 1: It's such a long name to tag, right. It was 114 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,360 Speaker 1: just spray paint corn bread and on walls and such, 115 00:07:43,480 --> 00:07:48,160 Speaker 1: and and thus graffiti tagging was born. I like to 116 00:07:48,200 --> 00:07:52,160 Speaker 1: imagine that he was just insane and hungry, I know 117 00:07:52,320 --> 00:07:56,200 Speaker 1: for something that is you know, considered such a you know, 118 00:07:56,280 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 1: the seedy vandalism that these sketchy it's might do after dark. 119 00:08:01,960 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: That the first known tag was such a such an 120 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,640 Speaker 1: innocent thing as corn bread, corn bread, just corn bread. 121 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:12,800 Speaker 1: But then in nineteen seventy one, graffiti as well as 122 00:08:12,800 --> 00:08:15,120 Speaker 1: street art as we think of it today, started to 123 00:08:15,160 --> 00:08:18,800 Speaker 1: get more mainstream attention when The New York Times published 124 00:08:18,920 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: an article on Talkie one eight three and Talkie was 125 00:08:23,880 --> 00:08:26,680 Speaker 1: just this random guy who lived in New York and 126 00:08:26,720 --> 00:08:30,360 Speaker 1: he would write Talkie e three everywhere, And then people 127 00:08:30,520 --> 00:08:33,720 Speaker 1: started tagging on top of that. I think the headline 128 00:08:33,720 --> 00:08:35,480 Speaker 1: of the New York Times piece was something along the 129 00:08:35,520 --> 00:08:38,640 Speaker 1: lines of Talkie one eight three gets a new pen 130 00:08:38,760 --> 00:08:43,079 Speaker 1: pals because they started noticing it in all of these spaces, 131 00:08:43,160 --> 00:08:46,200 Speaker 1: much of the chagrin of the New York government at 132 00:08:46,200 --> 00:08:47,720 Speaker 1: the time. I was really trying to like clean up 133 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:51,840 Speaker 1: the city, so they like really hated all those graffitos. Um. 134 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:54,440 Speaker 1: That's my made up word for people who do graffiti. 135 00:08:55,080 --> 00:09:00,600 Speaker 1: M But tagging, just simply scrawling your nickname gave way 136 00:09:00,640 --> 00:09:04,040 Speaker 1: to the development of wild style. Wait, you mean the 137 00:09:04,040 --> 00:09:10,160 Speaker 1: girl character from the Lego movie No I wish um? 138 00:09:10,400 --> 00:09:16,080 Speaker 1: Wild style are those interlocking bubble letters that are usually 139 00:09:16,320 --> 00:09:21,280 Speaker 1: huge and artists first scrawled across subway cars and other 140 00:09:21,640 --> 00:09:25,400 Speaker 1: massive public canvases. Those big bubble letters. Yeah, and one 141 00:09:25,400 --> 00:09:29,240 Speaker 1: of the people doing these huge bubble letters putting their 142 00:09:29,320 --> 00:09:32,440 Speaker 1: name in bubble letters was Lady Pink. Yeah. Yeah, So 143 00:09:32,480 --> 00:09:35,600 Speaker 1: in ninety nine we get Lady Pink. She starts tagging 144 00:09:36,040 --> 00:09:39,240 Speaker 1: at fifteen years old, and she's usually cited as one 145 00:09:39,240 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: of the first and only women graffiti artists at the time. 146 00:09:45,120 --> 00:09:49,000 Speaker 1: And notably though, she was featured in Wild Style, which 147 00:09:49,040 --> 00:09:53,640 Speaker 1: showcase New York's intersecting graffiti, hip hop, and breakdancing scenes 148 00:09:53,679 --> 00:09:59,000 Speaker 1: and subcultures, and she is really vocal still about the 149 00:09:59,040 --> 00:10:04,120 Speaker 1: macho culture that pervaded street art at the time. She said, 150 00:10:04,120 --> 00:10:06,160 Speaker 1: when I first started, women were still trying to prove 151 00:10:06,200 --> 00:10:09,240 Speaker 1: themselves through the seventies that women could do everything guys 152 00:10:09,280 --> 00:10:11,959 Speaker 1: could do. The feminist movement was growing very strong, and 153 00:10:12,040 --> 00:10:15,439 Speaker 1: as a teenager, I think it affected me without realizing 154 00:10:15,440 --> 00:10:17,800 Speaker 1: that I was a young feminist. The more guys said 155 00:10:17,840 --> 00:10:19,640 Speaker 1: you can't do that, the more I had to prove 156 00:10:19,679 --> 00:10:21,839 Speaker 1: them wrong. I had to hold it up for all 157 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,000 Speaker 1: my sisters who looked up to me, to be brave 158 00:10:24,080 --> 00:10:26,960 Speaker 1: and courageous and to prove that I could do what 159 00:10:27,080 --> 00:10:29,560 Speaker 1: the guys would do. She goes on to say it 160 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:34,600 Speaker 1: reflects what the art world in general is white males. 161 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,360 Speaker 1: So you have to fight tooth and nail, bitch and scream, 162 00:10:37,440 --> 00:10:41,679 Speaker 1: be loud, and be large to get that respect. And honestly, 163 00:10:41,800 --> 00:10:44,560 Speaker 1: that's what you hear from a lot of women street 164 00:10:44,640 --> 00:10:49,640 Speaker 1: artists and just artist artists even today. Um. But really 165 00:10:49,720 --> 00:10:53,360 Speaker 1: quickly going back to the seventies and early eighties, while 166 00:10:53,440 --> 00:10:56,199 Speaker 1: Lady Pink, because she is still so active and so 167 00:10:56,280 --> 00:11:00,560 Speaker 1: vocal today. Um, she's usually cited, like you said, as 168 00:11:00,840 --> 00:11:03,480 Speaker 1: one of the first, but she wasn't the only one. 169 00:11:03,600 --> 00:11:07,440 Speaker 1: Even before she got started tagging, there was a literal 170 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:12,120 Speaker 1: tag team named Barbara sixty two and even sixty two 171 00:11:12,440 --> 00:11:16,720 Speaker 1: that were apparently prolific in New York in the early seventies. 172 00:11:16,760 --> 00:11:20,160 Speaker 1: And for some reason, the tag Barbara sixty two just 173 00:11:21,000 --> 00:11:24,000 Speaker 1: really makes me chuckle because I just imagine Barbara like 174 00:11:24,080 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: some like secretary after Hours, like big shouldered blazers, like 175 00:11:29,320 --> 00:11:33,760 Speaker 1: Jane Fonda's character and nine exactly there. Maybe sixty two 176 00:11:33,800 --> 00:11:36,120 Speaker 1: is the family name, brim Maybe it's like a mom 177 00:11:36,160 --> 00:11:39,640 Speaker 1: and a daughter. I like that. Uh. And then in 178 00:11:39,679 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: the nineteen eighties you have some women getting into the 179 00:11:42,880 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: subway writing as well, like Lady Heart, Anna Dawn and 180 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:50,520 Speaker 1: Bambi and those were their tags not just there. They 181 00:11:50,559 --> 00:11:52,439 Speaker 1: might have also been their names. But I love how 182 00:11:52,480 --> 00:11:54,240 Speaker 1: basic it was at that time. I was like, what 183 00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 1: should my tag be? Um, my name is Anna. Okay, 184 00:11:59,160 --> 00:12:02,320 Speaker 1: I'll do. But of course, that Bamby is not to 185 00:12:02,320 --> 00:12:07,120 Speaker 1: be confused with the Bamby of modern day street art, 186 00:12:07,120 --> 00:12:10,040 Speaker 1: who's often called the female banks but don't call her 187 00:12:10,040 --> 00:12:13,280 Speaker 1: the female Banksy to her face. But we do have 188 00:12:13,360 --> 00:12:15,880 Speaker 1: to give a quick shout out from the early nineties 189 00:12:16,240 --> 00:12:20,800 Speaker 1: to Miss Mag's, who was a mysterious figure. We don't 190 00:12:20,800 --> 00:12:24,280 Speaker 1: really know all that much about her, but apparently she 191 00:12:24,400 --> 00:12:28,280 Speaker 1: had a very influential burner style, which refers to using 192 00:12:28,600 --> 00:12:32,240 Speaker 1: really bright colors. So even though she kind of faded 193 00:12:32,280 --> 00:12:35,520 Speaker 1: back into the shadows kind of literally in the scene, 194 00:12:36,040 --> 00:12:40,880 Speaker 1: she definitely left her mark. And by the early eighties, 195 00:12:41,480 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 1: graffiti had really begun to attract legitimacy and money, money, money, 196 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 1: within the New York art world, thanks in part to 197 00:12:49,880 --> 00:12:54,920 Speaker 1: Patty Aster's Fun Gallery, which opened in and featured people 198 00:12:55,200 --> 00:13:00,480 Speaker 1: like Keith Herring and Jean Michelle Boscia. Yeah did I 199 00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,880 Speaker 1: say that right? I went to the pronouncing Sean Michelle 200 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:07,640 Speaker 1: bath guyot Yeah okay, um um, yeah, I found that 201 00:13:07,679 --> 00:13:10,360 Speaker 1: really interesting. That's something that I had no inkling about 202 00:13:11,240 --> 00:13:16,000 Speaker 1: that street art so early on attracted so much money 203 00:13:16,000 --> 00:13:18,080 Speaker 1: and attention from the fine art world. Well, because I'm 204 00:13:18,080 --> 00:13:20,480 Speaker 1: sure people were like, what in the f is this stuff? 205 00:13:21,040 --> 00:13:23,880 Speaker 1: But the fact that they immediately monetized it, which is 206 00:13:23,880 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 1: something that you still see today with people like Banksy, 207 00:13:26,920 --> 00:13:30,040 Speaker 1: with people like the modern day Banby, not the original Banby, 208 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:33,959 Speaker 1: making so much money from like celebrities who just want 209 00:13:34,000 --> 00:13:37,640 Speaker 1: a cool wall in their house. Oh absolutely. Um. Swoon 210 00:13:38,120 --> 00:13:42,480 Speaker 1: is one of the most successful female street artists out 211 00:13:42,480 --> 00:13:45,679 Speaker 1: there today as well, and in a profile on her 212 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: in The New York Times, she said, I make a 213 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:50,800 Speaker 1: lot of money, but I also spend a lot of 214 00:13:50,800 --> 00:13:53,920 Speaker 1: money to make my art, all right. I mean it's 215 00:13:54,440 --> 00:13:58,440 Speaker 1: her and her work is incredible. And this leads us 216 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:03,000 Speaker 1: into the fact that why I'll the old school history 217 00:14:03,080 --> 00:14:08,040 Speaker 1: of graffiti is just so barren of women. Aside from 218 00:14:08,120 --> 00:14:12,840 Speaker 1: Lady Pink and old Babs Bab sixty two, Um, there 219 00:14:12,880 --> 00:14:15,680 Speaker 1: are a growing number today. Of course, there are no 220 00:14:16,040 --> 00:14:21,600 Speaker 1: official statistics because the it's street art and graffiti, um, 221 00:14:21,640 --> 00:14:26,400 Speaker 1: but anecdotally, women are covering public spaces around the world 222 00:14:26,520 --> 00:14:31,200 Speaker 1: like never before. Yeah, the godmother of street art, whose 223 00:14:31,200 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: photographer Martha Cooper said that she's noticed an uptick since 224 00:14:35,760 --> 00:14:39,480 Speaker 1: the nineteen seventies. She told The Independent, before women might 225 00:14:39,480 --> 00:14:41,760 Speaker 1: have made up like one tenth of a percent, and 226 00:14:41,800 --> 00:14:48,120 Speaker 1: now maybe it's one percent, which is still not that many, 227 00:14:48,200 --> 00:14:50,320 Speaker 1: but a lot more than it used to be, for sure, 228 00:14:50,720 --> 00:14:54,400 Speaker 1: for sure. And it helps too that we that we've 229 00:14:54,440 --> 00:14:56,760 Speaker 1: seen more and more women over time be more vocal 230 00:14:56,760 --> 00:14:59,960 Speaker 1: about their street art. Yeah, I mean, and and perhaps 231 00:15:00,160 --> 00:15:04,800 Speaker 1: because there were so few women to begin with, I mean, 232 00:15:05,000 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 1: really just a handful, And because the entire subculture has 233 00:15:09,560 --> 00:15:14,000 Speaker 1: been seen as so masculine to the point of macho, 234 00:15:14,240 --> 00:15:17,760 Speaker 1: women's participation, even if it might be say at one 235 00:15:17,840 --> 00:15:22,040 Speaker 1: percent today, has been hailed as a gender revolution by 236 00:15:22,120 --> 00:15:25,360 Speaker 1: some people. Yeah. Well, so then, if we're seeing a 237 00:15:25,400 --> 00:15:29,680 Speaker 1: gender revolution, what's the deal with why aren't there more? 238 00:15:29,760 --> 00:15:32,160 Speaker 1: Why are they still just one percent? Well, let's talk 239 00:15:32,200 --> 00:15:35,120 Speaker 1: about the subculture for a second. That was something that 240 00:15:35,160 --> 00:15:38,960 Speaker 1: Alison Stein, that PhD researcher writing over at The Toast, 241 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:44,360 Speaker 1: pointed out how in the same way that skateboarding culture, 242 00:15:44,400 --> 00:15:48,760 Speaker 1: which we talked about, has been traditionally not so friendly 243 00:15:49,040 --> 00:15:53,360 Speaker 1: to the ladies, graffiti culture and street art culture has 244 00:15:53,400 --> 00:15:56,880 Speaker 1: similarly pushed women to the side for a long time. 245 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:01,160 Speaker 1: Well yeah, not to mention, of course, this potential street harassment, 246 00:16:01,240 --> 00:16:04,000 Speaker 1: the fact that you've got to be comfortable going out 247 00:16:04,040 --> 00:16:08,920 Speaker 1: at night, you know, trespassing, hopping over fences, getting dirty, 248 00:16:09,200 --> 00:16:11,800 Speaker 1: like all of these things essentially that girls are told 249 00:16:11,840 --> 00:16:15,120 Speaker 1: not to do. Oh, and climbing up onto billboards and 250 00:16:15,200 --> 00:16:17,720 Speaker 1: water towers and other really high spaces that when I 251 00:16:17,760 --> 00:16:19,480 Speaker 1: think about it, it starts to give me butterflies in 252 00:16:19,560 --> 00:16:21,800 Speaker 1: my stomach, because I have a severe fear of heights. 253 00:16:22,560 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: But as Di notes over at the toast, even the 254 00:16:26,040 --> 00:16:33,200 Speaker 1: language of graffiti culture points out how masculine it is. 255 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:36,760 Speaker 1: As a tradition. She knows how, for instance, uh, rubbing 256 00:16:36,800 --> 00:16:40,680 Speaker 1: wet paint together to smear someone else's work and ruin 257 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:44,840 Speaker 1: it is called dombing, which comes from condom And traditionally 258 00:16:45,000 --> 00:16:49,240 Speaker 1: the word king refers to an experienced artist. And when 259 00:16:49,240 --> 00:16:52,040 Speaker 1: we just think of what does a graffiti artist look like, oh, 260 00:16:52,080 --> 00:16:54,920 Speaker 1: it's like a dude and a hoodie. Yeah. And there 261 00:16:55,080 --> 00:16:57,160 Speaker 1: there's a street artist who goes by the name of 262 00:16:57,400 --> 00:16:59,880 Speaker 1: l who sort of echoed what I was saying, or 263 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:03,520 Speaker 1: leer about how society just tells girls and young women that, like, 264 00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,320 Speaker 1: this is not what you do. You're not dirty, you 265 00:17:05,320 --> 00:17:07,560 Speaker 1: don't go out at night, you shouldn't go out by yourself, 266 00:17:07,600 --> 00:17:11,200 Speaker 1: you shouldn't do face property. And she said that that 267 00:17:11,280 --> 00:17:15,320 Speaker 1: was actually a motive for her to get more involved 268 00:17:15,320 --> 00:17:17,320 Speaker 1: in more visible in street art, because she wanted to 269 00:17:17,359 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: be a role model for girls who could participate. Yeah, 270 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,880 Speaker 1: she said that she thinks the reason more women aren't 271 00:17:23,880 --> 00:17:28,200 Speaker 1: street artists is straight up because we assume that it's 272 00:17:28,200 --> 00:17:31,680 Speaker 1: something that only dudes can do. And a notable thing 273 00:17:31,880 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: about l that some articles do focus on I think 274 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:37,199 Speaker 1: a little bit too much, but here I'm gonna do 275 00:17:37,280 --> 00:17:40,760 Speaker 1: it here for a second to is how um she 276 00:17:40,880 --> 00:17:45,640 Speaker 1: herself just in her presentation and physique is very feminine. 277 00:17:45,680 --> 00:17:49,159 Speaker 1: I mean, conventionally, she just looks like a model, like 278 00:17:49,200 --> 00:17:52,760 Speaker 1: a straight up model. Um, she's very attractive. There are 279 00:17:53,840 --> 00:17:58,680 Speaker 1: kind of sexier photos of her on her website, and 280 00:17:58,840 --> 00:18:06,119 Speaker 1: a lot of her work portrays women like attractive, powerful, 281 00:18:06,200 --> 00:18:10,440 Speaker 1: kind of goddess esque women. Um, so she she definitely 282 00:18:10,720 --> 00:18:15,200 Speaker 1: hues very much to the feminine um. Roger Gastman, who's 283 00:18:15,240 --> 00:18:19,919 Speaker 1: the author of the History of American Graffiti says that 284 00:18:20,160 --> 00:18:24,800 Speaker 1: there are fewer women in graffiti, street art and skateboarding 285 00:18:24,920 --> 00:18:30,160 Speaker 1: just because that's the way it is. Basically. He goes 286 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:32,920 Speaker 1: on to say that, you know what, if girls want 287 00:18:32,920 --> 00:18:35,879 Speaker 1: to get involved, just get involved. Just go do it, 288 00:18:36,040 --> 00:18:38,720 Speaker 1: Just go do it. Yeah, there are no like institutional issues. 289 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,600 Speaker 1: There's nothing really like holding you back technically, which I 290 00:18:41,600 --> 00:18:44,400 Speaker 1: have a feeling that's easier for a guy to say, 291 00:18:44,440 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: because the guy going out at night and cutting locks 292 00:18:48,240 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 1: and going into you know, possibly scary spaces might might 293 00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:56,080 Speaker 1: be a different matter than doing that as a woman. Yeah. 294 00:18:56,119 --> 00:18:58,119 Speaker 1: This is something that Caroline called well over and hyper 295 00:18:58,160 --> 00:19:02,199 Speaker 1: allergic sort of talks about that the lack of women 296 00:19:02,520 --> 00:19:07,840 Speaker 1: in street art and graffiti culture is linked to broader 297 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:11,640 Speaker 1: issues of fewer women in the art world in general, 298 00:19:11,720 --> 00:19:15,800 Speaker 1: that male artists are likelier to get representation at galleries 299 00:19:15,840 --> 00:19:18,560 Speaker 1: their work cells for more than female artists work does 300 00:19:18,960 --> 00:19:22,439 Speaker 1: not to mention, of course, again the potential harassment and 301 00:19:22,480 --> 00:19:25,480 Speaker 1: assault that many women face on the streets. She wrote 302 00:19:25,760 --> 00:19:28,399 Speaker 1: how many women have actually thought there's no point in 303 00:19:28,440 --> 00:19:30,920 Speaker 1: pursuing street art because my work will be outshine by men. 304 00:19:31,560 --> 00:19:33,400 Speaker 1: She says, I'm willing to bet that a lot more 305 00:19:33,400 --> 00:19:36,160 Speaker 1: women have thought I was verbally harassed or cat called, 306 00:19:36,200 --> 00:19:39,040 Speaker 1: or stocked or objectified in public today, and sneaking around 307 00:19:39,080 --> 00:19:41,400 Speaker 1: the streets is not worth the risk of sexual assault. 308 00:19:41,720 --> 00:19:46,000 Speaker 1: And she highlighted street art like that of Tatiana Fasil 309 00:19:46,119 --> 00:19:49,680 Speaker 1: today who stopped telling women to smile. Street art campaign 310 00:19:50,160 --> 00:19:55,280 Speaker 1: directly addresses that kind of street harassment and has also 311 00:19:55,359 --> 00:19:57,240 Speaker 1: gone viral on the internet. I have a feeling a 312 00:19:57,240 --> 00:20:00,119 Speaker 1: lot of listeners have seen these images and I I've 313 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,760 Speaker 1: seen those images as well in downtown Atlanta, and I 314 00:20:03,800 --> 00:20:09,119 Speaker 1: got really nerdly excited. Yeah, she came there specifically to 315 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:11,119 Speaker 1: do that, right, That's not somebody else putting it up. 316 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,480 Speaker 1: She came here. Yea, yeah, No, it's a it's a 317 00:20:13,520 --> 00:20:16,280 Speaker 1: great thing to see, and I feel like so many 318 00:20:16,960 --> 00:20:19,800 Speaker 1: it's a great conversation starter. I'll put it though. I 319 00:20:19,800 --> 00:20:21,920 Speaker 1: feel like there are a lot of men still who 320 00:20:21,920 --> 00:20:24,320 Speaker 1: are like, what's wrong with stelling a woman to smile? 321 00:20:24,920 --> 00:20:28,000 Speaker 1: It's like, well, okay, but here's the thing, like we 322 00:20:28,040 --> 00:20:32,200 Speaker 1: talked about at the top of the podcast, while women 323 00:20:32,800 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: like Swoon and l and Bambi, who we haven't even 324 00:20:36,520 --> 00:20:40,040 Speaker 1: really talked about at this point, are incredibly successful and 325 00:20:40,080 --> 00:20:43,720 Speaker 1: more women than ever before are really getting into street 326 00:20:43,840 --> 00:20:48,560 Speaker 1: art and getting recognition for their street art. There's still 327 00:20:48,600 --> 00:20:54,520 Speaker 1: this issue of them being constantly marginalized for their gender, 328 00:20:55,080 --> 00:20:58,560 Speaker 1: allah being referred to as the female banksies. Who's going 329 00:20:58,640 --> 00:21:00,720 Speaker 1: to be the female banks sies? This of female banks 330 00:21:00,720 --> 00:21:05,280 Speaker 1: see here ten women who are better than Banks. Yeah, 331 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:09,680 Speaker 1: And Caldwell hyper Allergic talks about how when you discuss 332 00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:14,000 Speaker 1: street artists purely in relation to their gender, or call 333 00:21:14,080 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: them female banks, these this basically shuts down, She says, 334 00:21:17,920 --> 00:21:20,959 Speaker 1: a more nuanced appreciation of art made by women and 335 00:21:21,000 --> 00:21:24,159 Speaker 1: takes the control away from the artist in shaping her 336 00:21:24,200 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: own narrative. And that's what we saw, and a lot 337 00:21:27,800 --> 00:21:31,639 Speaker 1: of these lady street artists trend pieces. And I do 338 00:21:31,760 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: realize a bit of the irony of this and the 339 00:21:34,040 --> 00:21:36,440 Speaker 1: fact that we are referring to them as women's street 340 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:40,480 Speaker 1: artists as we talk about them, But I think Caldwell 341 00:21:40,520 --> 00:21:44,400 Speaker 1: has a point in that let's talk about them from 342 00:21:44,440 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 1: sort of a broader perspective and not just write a 343 00:21:48,320 --> 00:21:52,800 Speaker 1: trend piece that is like here's thirteen women's street artists. 344 00:21:52,920 --> 00:21:57,280 Speaker 1: Maybe have it framed in here's thirteen amazing street artists. 345 00:21:57,600 --> 00:22:01,040 Speaker 1: And this is a similar conversation that we've had about 346 00:22:01,359 --> 00:22:04,720 Speaker 1: women in writing as well, and the whole thing of 347 00:22:05,160 --> 00:22:08,280 Speaker 1: you know, coordinating women off to chick lit and that 348 00:22:08,400 --> 00:22:11,320 Speaker 1: if it's something if a book is written by a woman, 349 00:22:11,359 --> 00:22:15,000 Speaker 1: then it's for women, whereas something that Jonathan friends and 350 00:22:15,040 --> 00:22:18,199 Speaker 1: writes is for everybody. And this is something I mean, 351 00:22:18,200 --> 00:22:20,119 Speaker 1: speaking of writing, that we talked about in our science 352 00:22:20,160 --> 00:22:25,000 Speaker 1: fiction episode two, that there was this all women sci 353 00:22:25,080 --> 00:22:28,000 Speaker 1: fi anthology, which, on the one hand, like great, yeah, 354 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:30,800 Speaker 1: feature amazing women writers, But on the other hand, do 355 00:22:30,880 --> 00:22:35,280 Speaker 1: we need to ghetto wise women's writing. I mean, it's 356 00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:38,760 Speaker 1: science fiction, It's not like it doesn't need to be 357 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:41,040 Speaker 1: separated from the work that men do. And I think 358 00:22:41,040 --> 00:22:43,320 Speaker 1: that's the argument that a lot of people make about 359 00:22:43,440 --> 00:22:48,200 Speaker 1: street art, Like, you know, do some of these artists, 360 00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:52,000 Speaker 1: whether it's women or there was one guy who turned 361 00:22:52,000 --> 00:22:55,160 Speaker 1: down the opportunity to be in a showing a gallery 362 00:22:55,160 --> 00:22:57,919 Speaker 1: showing that was all Jewish artists. It's like, do I 363 00:22:58,040 --> 00:23:00,760 Speaker 1: necessarily want to pigeonhole myself that way? Would it be 364 00:23:00,760 --> 00:23:04,200 Speaker 1: better to be featured alongside a whole diverse slew of 365 00:23:04,520 --> 00:23:08,560 Speaker 1: artists so that you can see that like gender, race, age, 366 00:23:09,119 --> 00:23:12,160 Speaker 1: these things don't matter when it comes to creating art. Yeah, 367 00:23:12,200 --> 00:23:15,359 Speaker 1: I mean, because it also revolves around you know, these 368 00:23:15,720 --> 00:23:17,680 Speaker 1: issues that come up in a lot of our podcasts 369 00:23:17,680 --> 00:23:21,919 Speaker 1: as well, in terms of the idea that women create 370 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:27,399 Speaker 1: things differently than men do. And I mean, and I 371 00:23:27,440 --> 00:23:31,240 Speaker 1: mean sometimes they do. Sometimes there is a female artist 372 00:23:31,359 --> 00:23:35,199 Speaker 1: creating something that's all like pink and flowers, But in 373 00:23:35,240 --> 00:23:37,959 Speaker 1: the next instance, they might be painting something that's like 374 00:23:38,160 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 1: super considered quote unquote masculine. But they're not inherently creating 375 00:23:42,600 --> 00:23:47,919 Speaker 1: different art, a different quality of art because they are women. Well, 376 00:23:47,960 --> 00:23:51,199 Speaker 1: and if someone makes the pink and flowers, why is 377 00:23:51,240 --> 00:23:55,920 Speaker 1: that devalued below something that might be harsher or more 378 00:23:55,960 --> 00:23:58,960 Speaker 1: aggressive in the way that it's created as well. I 379 00:23:59,000 --> 00:24:02,120 Speaker 1: mean that's the thing like as we started reading these articles, 380 00:24:02,160 --> 00:24:07,200 Speaker 1: I mean, it really does intersect so many common issues 381 00:24:07,280 --> 00:24:11,240 Speaker 1: that I certainly hadn't thought of before in just looking 382 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,480 Speaker 1: at all of the incredible street art that's all around Atlanta. 383 00:24:15,560 --> 00:24:18,520 Speaker 1: But I mean you can clearly peel away so many 384 00:24:18,600 --> 00:24:21,480 Speaker 1: different layers that have to do not only with how 385 00:24:21,720 --> 00:24:27,320 Speaker 1: we judge uh, men and women's artistic work and creative 386 00:24:27,320 --> 00:24:32,040 Speaker 1: work differently in value it differently. A lot of times. Um. 387 00:24:32,080 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: There's also too, I think, the aspect of what happens 388 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: when artists created through the male gaze versus the female gaze, 389 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: And that was something that came up in our episode 390 00:24:42,200 --> 00:24:47,560 Speaker 1: on the female nude and how a lot of those, um, 391 00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:51,440 Speaker 1: those paintings and sculptures at the time were made by men, 392 00:24:51,640 --> 00:24:56,240 Speaker 1: and the poses of nude women painted by dudes were 393 00:24:56,320 --> 00:24:59,960 Speaker 1: much different than how women depict the you know, similar 394 00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,520 Speaker 1: kinds of images. Yeah, which makes it all the more 395 00:25:03,720 --> 00:25:07,080 Speaker 1: frustrating when you read a headline that appeared in The Independent, 396 00:25:07,200 --> 00:25:10,840 Speaker 1: which is in search of a female Banksy, which makes 397 00:25:10,880 --> 00:25:13,439 Speaker 1: me want to throw my notes in the air, because 398 00:25:14,800 --> 00:25:18,640 Speaker 1: why why why do we what? Why all of that 399 00:25:18,960 --> 00:25:22,280 Speaker 1: part of like the female Banksy part and the in 400 00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:26,440 Speaker 1: search of a female Banksy, Like it's okay to just 401 00:25:26,560 --> 00:25:30,800 Speaker 1: talk about street artists who are women. We don't have 402 00:25:30,920 --> 00:25:33,639 Speaker 1: to be saying that we're in search of some woman 403 00:25:33,720 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: who's equivalent to Banksy, who may or may not be 404 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:39,720 Speaker 1: a man we don't know, Yeah, I mean. And and 405 00:25:39,760 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: within that article in search of a female Banksy, the 406 00:25:43,320 --> 00:25:48,560 Speaker 1: name checked i Go, who had done a show with Banksy. 407 00:25:48,640 --> 00:25:51,399 Speaker 1: I think that she's actually featured in Exit of the 408 00:25:51,400 --> 00:25:56,199 Speaker 1: gift shop and even in talking about her work, which 409 00:25:56,440 --> 00:26:01,160 Speaker 1: she is very loud about out how much she enjoys 410 00:26:01,280 --> 00:26:05,879 Speaker 1: being a woman in a boy's world kind of um, 411 00:26:05,920 --> 00:26:08,000 Speaker 1: but it's still framed all of her work just around 412 00:26:08,240 --> 00:26:10,960 Speaker 1: Banksy didn't kind of let her stand on her own 413 00:26:11,000 --> 00:26:14,240 Speaker 1: two feet um or note that, for instance, she was 414 00:26:14,280 --> 00:26:17,960 Speaker 1: the first woman to paint the legendary Bowery Wall in 415 00:26:18,040 --> 00:26:20,120 Speaker 1: New York, which is like in the street art world, 416 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:23,320 Speaker 1: that's a huge honor instead of was like, oh, well, 417 00:26:23,720 --> 00:26:26,440 Speaker 1: banks he likes this little lady over here, and look 418 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:30,280 Speaker 1: how feminine all of her her pieces are, and that's 419 00:26:30,320 --> 00:26:35,600 Speaker 1: something that really Vexes Vexta, who cited as Melbourne's first 420 00:26:35,640 --> 00:26:38,960 Speaker 1: female street artist. Yeah, she basically talks about how she's 421 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:43,800 Speaker 1: sick of her work and other street artists work always 422 00:26:43,840 --> 00:26:47,960 Speaker 1: being considered through the perspective of whether something is feminine 423 00:26:48,040 --> 00:26:51,239 Speaker 1: or not and what that means. And she's also one 424 00:26:51,280 --> 00:26:55,159 Speaker 1: of those people who talks about the extremes of you know, 425 00:26:55,240 --> 00:26:58,159 Speaker 1: either you have no women or like one woman in 426 00:26:58,200 --> 00:27:00,480 Speaker 1: a group of street artists, or it's all all women. 427 00:27:00,520 --> 00:27:03,720 Speaker 1: It seems to be that there's there's no just gender 428 00:27:03,760 --> 00:27:07,960 Speaker 1: blind street art going on yeah, and she says that 429 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,400 Speaker 1: whether your work is about femininity or not, it will 430 00:27:12,440 --> 00:27:18,679 Speaker 1: always just be considered about femininity, whereas male street artists 431 00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:20,560 Speaker 1: work is not going to constantly be seen as like 432 00:27:20,560 --> 00:27:24,239 Speaker 1: a reflection of masculinity. It's like, oh, that's a you know, 433 00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:27,439 Speaker 1: that's the queen right there, that's Kate Moss with different 434 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:32,439 Speaker 1: colored hair, which I think hearkens back to one of 435 00:27:32,480 --> 00:27:37,400 Speaker 1: this podcast's themes that masculinity and masculine and men and 436 00:27:37,440 --> 00:27:41,919 Speaker 1: male is seen as normal and neutral, where as something 437 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,600 Speaker 1: created by a woman is seen as gender, which was 438 00:27:44,640 --> 00:27:50,199 Speaker 1: something that London based Bambi said to The Guardian in 439 00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:53,960 Speaker 1: an article which I think was headlined the Female Bank. 440 00:27:54,080 --> 00:27:57,840 Speaker 1: See Bambi said quote that this is a perfect example 441 00:27:57,880 --> 00:28:00,080 Speaker 1: that we live in a male dominated society. To you, 442 00:28:00,119 --> 00:28:02,880 Speaker 1: at the moment, men's that the benchmark and women are 443 00:28:03,000 --> 00:28:06,479 Speaker 1: judged by that. Bambi being the one who has no 444 00:28:06,560 --> 00:28:09,400 Speaker 1: interest in being called the female banks although I get 445 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:14,280 Speaker 1: it to a point because her style is very reminiscent 446 00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:19,280 Speaker 1: of Banksy, but still well and yeah and she I 447 00:28:19,280 --> 00:28:22,880 Speaker 1: think I mentioned this earlier. She's also making bank oh 448 00:28:22,960 --> 00:28:25,919 Speaker 1: so much money off of her art. Brad Pitt and 449 00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,800 Speaker 1: other celebrities have bought her stuff, and there's all this 450 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,000 Speaker 1: speculation like is it m i A, is it like 451 00:28:32,240 --> 00:28:36,040 Speaker 1: any of these like singers and famous people masquerading around 452 00:28:36,080 --> 00:28:39,360 Speaker 1: as a street artist Because her identity is also super secret, 453 00:28:40,080 --> 00:28:44,920 Speaker 1: and when it comes to the female street art issue, 454 00:28:45,240 --> 00:28:48,920 Speaker 1: South African artist Faith forty seven doesn't want to be 455 00:28:49,120 --> 00:28:52,320 Speaker 1: labeled even a female street artist at all, because, as 456 00:28:52,320 --> 00:28:56,120 Speaker 1: she told The Independent, my attitude has always just been 457 00:28:56,160 --> 00:28:58,680 Speaker 1: that I focus on my work and not what race 458 00:28:58,760 --> 00:29:01,160 Speaker 1: or gender I am. It's all about the work. So 459 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,640 Speaker 1: I intentionally don't see my gender as an issue. And 460 00:29:04,680 --> 00:29:09,800 Speaker 1: if you look at her pieces, it would be difficult 461 00:29:09,880 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 1: to read any specific gender into it unless you knew 462 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:17,360 Speaker 1: that it was created by a woman. I would also 463 00:29:17,480 --> 00:29:21,200 Speaker 1: like to point out that the names like Faith forty 464 00:29:21,240 --> 00:29:23,600 Speaker 1: seven and Barber sixty two really remind me of like 465 00:29:23,680 --> 00:29:28,800 Speaker 1: a O L instant messenger names so true, just taking 466 00:29:28,840 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 1: your name and checking on like your birth here. That's 467 00:29:31,760 --> 00:29:35,840 Speaker 1: so embarrassing because my tag would be too tired. Oh three, 468 00:29:37,240 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: whoa was that was that? Indicating that you were like 469 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:44,640 Speaker 1: so over it something like that. I don't know. I 470 00:29:44,680 --> 00:29:46,760 Speaker 1: was trying to be cool. I was trying to seem 471 00:29:46,840 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 1: laid back, like I'm too tired for homework, psych I'm 472 00:29:50,920 --> 00:29:54,600 Speaker 1: in all a p classes. Okay, care well, listener, as 473 00:29:54,640 --> 00:29:56,520 Speaker 1: we've got a lot more to talk about, so stay 474 00:29:56,560 --> 00:30:09,280 Speaker 1: tuned while we take a quick break. But speaking though 475 00:30:09,680 --> 00:30:14,400 Speaker 1: of Banksy, who we've mentioned so many times, one funny 476 00:30:14,480 --> 00:30:18,560 Speaker 1: theory that popped out is that banks is not a dude. 477 00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: We just assume that banks is a dude. But why 478 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:27,000 Speaker 1: should we do that? Perhaps Banksy is also a female 479 00:30:27,200 --> 00:30:29,840 Speaker 1: street artist um. And She's not the only one to 480 00:30:29,880 --> 00:30:32,840 Speaker 1: suggest this, but we read a piece by Kristen Capps 481 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,760 Speaker 1: over at City Labs um saying that due to the 482 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:41,920 Speaker 1: prominence of women in Banksy's work, which that is notable 483 00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:46,040 Speaker 1: how often women are portrayed and not in super sexy 484 00:30:46,080 --> 00:30:50,520 Speaker 1: postes uh in Banksy's pieces, and also the social justicey 485 00:30:50,560 --> 00:30:55,360 Speaker 1: aspect to a lot of his or her work and 486 00:30:55,960 --> 00:31:00,640 Speaker 1: Banksy's interests in message versus just repeated Lee tagging the 487 00:31:00,720 --> 00:31:05,880 Speaker 1: same image like Shepherd, Fairies, andre the Giant, the Obey 488 00:31:05,920 --> 00:31:12,440 Speaker 1: andre Um suggest more of a feminine you know, person 489 00:31:12,480 --> 00:31:15,360 Speaker 1: behind behind all this work and who knows? But I 490 00:31:15,400 --> 00:31:17,800 Speaker 1: think what I love about this I hope we never 491 00:31:17,880 --> 00:31:20,160 Speaker 1: find out who banks He is. I hope we never 492 00:31:20,240 --> 00:31:25,600 Speaker 1: find out, because I love the idea that banks He 493 00:31:25,720 --> 00:31:28,719 Speaker 1: could be a man or a woman, and that like, 494 00:31:29,280 --> 00:31:32,200 Speaker 1: maybe banks He is a man and and he is 495 00:31:33,120 --> 00:31:36,840 Speaker 1: using what people consider a more feminine tack, you know, 496 00:31:37,040 --> 00:31:39,120 Speaker 1: or maybe it's a woman and she's out there being 497 00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:43,320 Speaker 1: super effing successful. Like either way, it's kind of cool. Yeah. 498 00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,320 Speaker 1: I don't think that we need to know whether Banksy 499 00:31:46,360 --> 00:31:47,960 Speaker 1: is a he or she. I think banks He's a 500 00:31:48,040 --> 00:31:51,800 Speaker 1: dude personally. I mean, I don't I'm not gonna like 501 00:31:51,840 --> 00:31:54,800 Speaker 1: put a flag in the ground either way. I you know, 502 00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:57,160 Speaker 1: I don't want to have skin in the game. I'm 503 00:31:57,160 --> 00:32:00,680 Speaker 1: just gonna keep using weird like metaphors and things. Um. 504 00:32:00,720 --> 00:32:04,600 Speaker 1: But I I like the idea that Banksy is a 505 00:32:04,680 --> 00:32:09,840 Speaker 1: mascot for sort of I don't know, cross gender street 506 00:32:09,920 --> 00:32:13,840 Speaker 1: art creation. Yeah. I mean, one thing that Kristen Capps's 507 00:32:13,880 --> 00:32:16,840 Speaker 1: piece did made me think about was how, oh it's 508 00:32:16,920 --> 00:32:20,880 Speaker 1: true that if you look at the aesthetic of a 509 00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:22,800 Speaker 1: lot of banks these work. I mean, and at this point, 510 00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:26,320 Speaker 1: obviously Banksy is not just one person. There's like the ringleader. 511 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: But I mean it takes a team of people to 512 00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:33,160 Speaker 1: pull off the kind of um installations that Banksy does. 513 00:32:33,360 --> 00:32:38,120 Speaker 1: Notice I'm I'm now avoiding pronouns all together. Um, but 514 00:32:38,200 --> 00:32:43,040 Speaker 1: I hadn't considered how it is a more quote unquote 515 00:32:43,080 --> 00:32:48,680 Speaker 1: feminine aesthetic and presentation. And also you know, the how 516 00:32:48,880 --> 00:32:52,120 Speaker 1: often women show up in those pieces as well. I 517 00:32:52,200 --> 00:32:54,120 Speaker 1: was like, oh, okay, it kind of made me like 518 00:32:54,120 --> 00:32:58,400 Speaker 1: banks even more. But if we knew for certain that 519 00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:01,920 Speaker 1: banks Be was a woman like would it change how 520 00:33:01,960 --> 00:33:04,320 Speaker 1: we thought about this art? I know, would it would 521 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:07,120 Speaker 1: have changed banks the's trajectory and would it have changed 522 00:33:07,160 --> 00:33:09,520 Speaker 1: the value of the art too, because that was one 523 00:33:09,560 --> 00:33:11,720 Speaker 1: thing that I hadn't thought about either, So because I'm 524 00:33:11,760 --> 00:33:15,000 Speaker 1: not in the art world, the visual art world. UM 525 00:33:15,200 --> 00:33:19,360 Speaker 1: was how there is a wage gap within art sales 526 00:33:19,360 --> 00:33:23,840 Speaker 1: to a gender wage gap? Um, but banks the aside 527 00:33:24,440 --> 00:33:28,200 Speaker 1: um talking a little bit more about this gender aspect. 528 00:33:28,400 --> 00:33:34,920 Speaker 1: Pretty much everything that we read describes these women's work 529 00:33:35,160 --> 00:33:38,760 Speaker 1: in gendered terms. Like I mentioned earlier, how else work 530 00:33:38,840 --> 00:33:41,880 Speaker 1: is often described as super feminine, and it does look, 531 00:33:41,960 --> 00:33:45,000 Speaker 1: you know, super feminine, partially because it's you know, you 532 00:33:45,080 --> 00:33:50,080 Speaker 1: have like a naked, attractive woman and a goddess pose 533 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:54,440 Speaker 1: on a wall. I think that qualifies as feminine. Yeah, 534 00:33:54,600 --> 00:33:56,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I guess that would depend on who's creating 535 00:33:56,840 --> 00:33:59,120 Speaker 1: the art. If it were a dude creating it, would 536 00:33:59,120 --> 00:34:01,480 Speaker 1: it just be objectified? I know, would it just be sexy? 537 00:34:01,520 --> 00:34:05,120 Speaker 1: Then it also jumped out to me how the Guardian 538 00:34:05,320 --> 00:34:11,680 Speaker 1: described Australian vextas pieces, because Vexta has gone on record 539 00:34:11,719 --> 00:34:14,439 Speaker 1: as saying, you know, I really don't wish to be 540 00:34:14,960 --> 00:34:17,600 Speaker 1: labeled as a female street artist, stop putting me in 541 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,080 Speaker 1: these boxes. And then in that piece, the Guardian described 542 00:34:22,200 --> 00:34:27,840 Speaker 1: describes the quote strongly feminine form in her paintings, portraying 543 00:34:27,880 --> 00:34:31,480 Speaker 1: graceful female figures, often in flight or suspended midair. And 544 00:34:31,520 --> 00:34:35,200 Speaker 1: the image that they used in the article to illustrate 545 00:34:35,320 --> 00:34:39,719 Speaker 1: this strongly feminine form I mean, was it was of 546 00:34:40,280 --> 00:34:44,560 Speaker 1: a realistically portrayed woman in midflight. Yeah, well that's what 547 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:47,120 Speaker 1: I mean, That's what Vexta says is behind her art. 548 00:34:47,200 --> 00:34:49,640 Speaker 1: She said that she wanted to make stuff that wasn't 549 00:34:49,680 --> 00:34:52,600 Speaker 1: just a caricature of a woman, that she herself wants 550 00:34:52,600 --> 00:34:55,600 Speaker 1: to be a role model to younger girls because women's 551 00:34:55,600 --> 00:34:59,000 Speaker 1: work is so often marginalized. So yes, like she wants 552 00:34:59,040 --> 00:35:02,120 Speaker 1: to portray because you know, in so many street artist 553 00:35:02,160 --> 00:35:06,760 Speaker 1: say this that we're bombarded with hyper sexualized advertising, TV, 554 00:35:07,080 --> 00:35:09,680 Speaker 1: all this stuff all day long. So it's great that 555 00:35:09,680 --> 00:35:12,600 Speaker 1: she wants to portray this beautiful imagery that happens to 556 00:35:12,680 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 1: also include women who aren't hyper sexualized. But that doesn't 557 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:19,960 Speaker 1: mean she necessarily wants to be called out for the 558 00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:24,200 Speaker 1: femininity aspect, right, And I also, you know, listeners, I 559 00:35:24,239 --> 00:35:28,600 Speaker 1: don't want to come across as marginalizing artwork more like 560 00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,960 Speaker 1: els that is overtly feminine in the in the same 561 00:35:33,000 --> 00:35:37,040 Speaker 1: way as like with our chef episode, not to denigrate 562 00:35:37,080 --> 00:35:39,640 Speaker 1: pastry chefs and the fine art that that is just 563 00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:44,040 Speaker 1: because it's the female dominated sector of that industry. It's 564 00:35:44,080 --> 00:35:49,520 Speaker 1: more questioning why we would put all of these women 565 00:35:49,640 --> 00:35:53,000 Speaker 1: in this one box, as it limit how we see 566 00:35:53,040 --> 00:35:57,399 Speaker 1: them and also their potential professional trajectory if we are 567 00:35:57,440 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: only able to describe their work in one particular way, 568 00:36:01,760 --> 00:36:05,080 Speaker 1: which is feminine. Yeah, like how the Independent said that 569 00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:10,960 Speaker 1: Ico is creating overtly feminine are because she uses or 570 00:36:11,000 --> 00:36:14,400 Speaker 1: will they say she's not afraid to use pinks and 571 00:36:14,440 --> 00:36:18,280 Speaker 1: purples and glitter, which and in that phrasing, isn't afraid 572 00:36:18,360 --> 00:36:22,600 Speaker 1: to use pinks, purples and glitters also suggests that well, well, 573 00:36:22,600 --> 00:36:25,759 Speaker 1: should she be afraid? Is that a brave thing to use? Uh? 574 00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: Of glittery palette. I really liked though, what street artists 575 00:36:32,120 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 1: Maya Hyuk told The Guardian about how her art, which 576 00:36:36,560 --> 00:36:44,160 Speaker 1: is very geometric, is motivated by sort of counteracting what 577 00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:47,600 Speaker 1: she describes as male artists urge to scent mark their 578 00:36:47,719 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: territory with tags, because hers is I mean, there's a 579 00:36:51,040 --> 00:36:54,239 Speaker 1: lot of it's very abstract and you wouldn't necessarily know 580 00:36:54,320 --> 00:36:57,680 Speaker 1: like who made it unless you know her style very well. Um, 581 00:36:57,719 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: And I thought that that was an interesting observation of hers. 582 00:37:00,320 --> 00:37:03,640 Speaker 1: I hadn't thought of tagging as scent marking, but totally 583 00:37:03,800 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: it makes sense too tired oh three all over the place? 584 00:37:09,600 --> 00:37:11,600 Speaker 1: What would your what would your tag look like? Would 585 00:37:11,640 --> 00:37:14,800 Speaker 1: it just be like a sleeping kilroy. I think it 586 00:37:14,800 --> 00:37:17,359 Speaker 1: would just be a really lazy too tired oh three 587 00:37:17,400 --> 00:37:22,840 Speaker 1: with a dripping paint, just tired And yeah, totally. And 588 00:37:22,960 --> 00:37:26,839 Speaker 1: even in the description though street artist Kashink, whose work 589 00:37:26,920 --> 00:37:30,720 Speaker 1: I really like, she makes these um kind of otherworldly 590 00:37:31,120 --> 00:37:37,440 Speaker 1: four eyed dudes um. In the description of her work 591 00:37:37,760 --> 00:37:41,120 Speaker 1: in a round up over the Huffington's posts, it says 592 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:46,000 Speaker 1: she challenges gender on and off the walls, and maybe 593 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:48,160 Speaker 1: I just need more context. Maybe I just don't know 594 00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:51,080 Speaker 1: enough about Kashenk and her artist statement and all of that. 595 00:37:51,440 --> 00:37:54,960 Speaker 1: But in seeing the photo that they use, I was like, 596 00:37:56,120 --> 00:37:57,480 Speaker 1: I don't I don't know that I'm I don't know 597 00:37:57,480 --> 00:38:00,680 Speaker 1: that I'm seeing that. Are they saying think they're saying 598 00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,280 Speaker 1: she's challenging gender on the walls because she's not taking 599 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:06,799 Speaker 1: attack that's pink and purples and glitter that she's just 600 00:38:06,840 --> 00:38:09,920 Speaker 1: painting like what would be called unisex art or are 601 00:38:09,920 --> 00:38:13,320 Speaker 1: abe So maybe so yeah, just by virtue of the 602 00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,399 Speaker 1: fact that she's not using pink challenging gender norms. Oh 603 00:38:16,400 --> 00:38:19,720 Speaker 1: my god, look at that woman. She's using blue. It's androgynous. 604 00:38:19,880 --> 00:38:23,359 Speaker 1: What are we gonna do about that? Um? But the 605 00:38:23,360 --> 00:38:29,879 Speaker 1: thing is, though gender and messages of female empowerment are 606 00:38:30,400 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 1: very real and very important in street art, especially as 607 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:38,400 Speaker 1: we think about their function in overtaking public spaces, and 608 00:38:38,480 --> 00:38:42,000 Speaker 1: to me, the public aspect of street art is one 609 00:38:42,000 --> 00:38:44,360 Speaker 1: of the main reasons I wanted to talk about it 610 00:38:44,360 --> 00:38:51,239 Speaker 1: on the podcast because women overtaking without permission often walls 611 00:38:52,000 --> 00:38:58,920 Speaker 1: and well keep paying on caroline, billboards, etcetera. UM is 612 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:01,520 Speaker 1: such a femie this to act in a lot of ways, 613 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:04,840 Speaker 1: especially taking it back and reclaiming it in the way 614 00:39:04,840 --> 00:39:10,040 Speaker 1: that maya why you describes it from this, uh, the 615 00:39:10,120 --> 00:39:14,960 Speaker 1: more male sent marking kind of style. Well, that's why 616 00:39:15,080 --> 00:39:19,360 Speaker 1: somebody like Afghanistan's Shampsia Hassani is so fascinating to me. 617 00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: She's typically hailed as that country's first female street artist, 618 00:39:23,840 --> 00:39:26,520 Speaker 1: and she often talks about how she intends her art 619 00:39:26,560 --> 00:39:31,399 Speaker 1: to be a conversation about women's status, and she says, 620 00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:33,279 Speaker 1: as a woman, it's difficult to be out on the 621 00:39:33,320 --> 00:39:36,040 Speaker 1: street by myself. Women often get harassed and it's not 622 00:39:36,239 --> 00:39:38,960 Speaker 1: very comfortable, and and she can't even go out at night. 623 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: This isn't an issue of like, oh, you might be 624 00:39:41,480 --> 00:39:44,080 Speaker 1: hurt or harassed if you go out after dark. This 625 00:39:44,160 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: is purely she's facing verbal taunts and abuse in the 626 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 1: daytime because she is a woman creating art outside. And 627 00:39:55,840 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: she talks a lot about how street art is new 628 00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:01,759 Speaker 1: to Afghanistan. It's you know, there's no laws against it. 629 00:40:01,760 --> 00:40:04,920 Speaker 1: It's not like there's any precedent for how to handle this. 630 00:40:05,760 --> 00:40:08,040 Speaker 1: But just by virtue of the fact that she is 631 00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:11,600 Speaker 1: a woman out there creating and out there actively encouraging 632 00:40:11,640 --> 00:40:14,360 Speaker 1: other Afghans to participate in this, that there are a 633 00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:17,200 Speaker 1: lot of men who are just not taking to that. Yeah, 634 00:40:17,239 --> 00:40:19,600 Speaker 1: I mean, and and that's what a notable thing when 635 00:40:19,640 --> 00:40:23,280 Speaker 1: we look at street art and especially how it's covered 636 00:40:23,480 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 1: um outside the United States, because when women are making it, 637 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:33,360 Speaker 1: there often are those very strong themes of highlighting you know, 638 00:40:33,360 --> 00:40:37,160 Speaker 1: women's treatment or marginalization or even violence against women. Um. 639 00:40:37,200 --> 00:40:40,400 Speaker 1: If we go over to Senegal, for instance, Dianaba Citabe, 640 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:44,840 Speaker 1: who is recognized as that country's first female street artists, 641 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:50,080 Speaker 1: similarly uses her art to raise attention to women's marginalization 642 00:40:50,600 --> 00:40:53,280 Speaker 1: in society, And the same thing happens that we travel 643 00:40:53,360 --> 00:40:58,279 Speaker 1: over to Columbia, where street art is legal. Bastardia is 644 00:40:58,440 --> 00:41:03,000 Speaker 1: known for her feminist themes and strong female imagery. Yeah, 645 00:41:03,040 --> 00:41:05,000 Speaker 1: she said, as a woman, I've had to fight against 646 00:41:05,000 --> 00:41:07,359 Speaker 1: these types of realities, against the fact that people want 647 00:41:07,360 --> 00:41:09,840 Speaker 1: to assault me, that I'm not taken into consideration for 648 00:41:09,880 --> 00:41:11,640 Speaker 1: a lot of things. And I've had to fight against 649 00:41:11,680 --> 00:41:16,160 Speaker 1: a world that is still turning mostly around men. And 650 00:41:16,400 --> 00:41:19,359 Speaker 1: so there is that motivation there too. Yes, I am 651 00:41:19,400 --> 00:41:22,440 Speaker 1: going to call attention to my gender and my womanhood 652 00:41:22,520 --> 00:41:27,040 Speaker 1: because it's sort of under attack. Still, Yeah, it seems 653 00:41:27,040 --> 00:41:31,400 Speaker 1: like across UH, Central and South America there has been 654 00:41:31,440 --> 00:41:35,040 Speaker 1: a huge movement of women in street art and using 655 00:41:35,080 --> 00:41:38,640 Speaker 1: it politically. Um there's a great mini doc over at 656 00:41:38,680 --> 00:41:43,800 Speaker 1: Refinery twenty nine about um Pamela Castro in ro De Janeiro, 657 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:48,680 Speaker 1: who's a political feminist street art whose work particularly calls 658 00:41:48,719 --> 00:41:52,719 Speaker 1: attention to violence against women and female subjugation. And in 659 00:41:52,760 --> 00:41:55,080 Speaker 1: a lot of these countries you do have very real 660 00:41:55,120 --> 00:41:57,480 Speaker 1: issues not only with things like domestic violence, but also 661 00:41:57,719 --> 00:42:00,560 Speaker 1: you know, street harassment just running ramp it and how 662 00:42:00,600 --> 00:42:04,920 Speaker 1: these women are overtaking these public spaces through art, and 663 00:42:04,960 --> 00:42:08,280 Speaker 1: it's incredible to me. Yeah, So frequently Castor will paint 664 00:42:08,320 --> 00:42:12,480 Speaker 1: like uh, you know, traditionally or conventionally beautiful model like woman, 665 00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,160 Speaker 1: but with a black eye or with blood running down 666 00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:16,960 Speaker 1: her face or something to that effect to really sort 667 00:42:16,960 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 1: of grab your attention because on first look, you know, 668 00:42:18,840 --> 00:42:21,279 Speaker 1: I scan through some of her pictures and I you know, 669 00:42:21,440 --> 00:42:23,600 Speaker 1: first glance, you might just think, oh, there's just a 670 00:42:23,600 --> 00:42:25,520 Speaker 1: pretty woman, and then you look closer and you realize, oh, 671 00:42:25,520 --> 00:42:27,279 Speaker 1: and there's blood coming out of her eye. You know, 672 00:42:27,400 --> 00:42:31,239 Speaker 1: like there's very intense imagery related to her effort to 673 00:42:31,640 --> 00:42:36,160 Speaker 1: counteract violence. And there's an entire group in Cairo called 674 00:42:36,280 --> 00:42:40,840 Speaker 1: Women on Walls, which organizes female street artists to create 675 00:42:40,920 --> 00:42:45,719 Speaker 1: murals centered around women's empowerment, and Mira Shahade is one 676 00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,480 Speaker 1: such artist. So it's I mean, it's just incredible to 677 00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:52,239 Speaker 1: see wherever you go around the globe, and especially if 678 00:42:52,280 --> 00:42:56,239 Speaker 1: you end up in these countries that have a lot 679 00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,760 Speaker 1: of gender and balance going on, how political the street 680 00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,680 Speaker 1: art becomes. Yeah, and how it's interesting to see how 681 00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:08,719 Speaker 1: gender is used as a tool across the world. Even 682 00:43:08,760 --> 00:43:13,799 Speaker 1: that artist Ico, who's frequently compared with Banksy, says that 683 00:43:13,920 --> 00:43:16,920 Speaker 1: I'm working hard so the men have started to recognize 684 00:43:16,960 --> 00:43:19,440 Speaker 1: me as one of the top five women's street artists 685 00:43:19,440 --> 00:43:22,240 Speaker 1: on the planet. I have to keep going and showing 686 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:25,200 Speaker 1: them I can paint, and like, I get the sentiment, 687 00:43:25,640 --> 00:43:28,360 Speaker 1: but it's almost like, wait, but what so you're pitting 688 00:43:28,360 --> 00:43:31,200 Speaker 1: yourself against men too instead of wanting to be like 689 00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,239 Speaker 1: just an amazing or top five street artists like you 690 00:43:34,320 --> 00:43:37,719 Speaker 1: still are it sounds like and maybe any more context 691 00:43:37,760 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: for this quote, but like it sounds like okay, well wait, 692 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:43,560 Speaker 1: you're cool with just being on the women's list, or 693 00:43:43,640 --> 00:43:46,719 Speaker 1: maybe that's also something that it has taken an attitude 694 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:51,319 Speaker 1: that it's taken for her to get brought into the 695 00:43:51,360 --> 00:43:55,440 Speaker 1: fold at that top tier banksy levels. Yeah, I mean 696 00:43:55,520 --> 00:43:57,839 Speaker 1: this does go back to everything we've ever talked about 697 00:43:57,840 --> 00:44:00,680 Speaker 1: on the podcast about how you tend to have to 698 00:44:00,719 --> 00:44:04,960 Speaker 1: work twice hard to be where men are, especially in 699 00:44:05,040 --> 00:44:07,319 Speaker 1: terms of like the workplace like here in terms of 700 00:44:07,320 --> 00:44:09,240 Speaker 1: street art, and I wonder in this kind of culture 701 00:44:09,280 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 1: of playing the you know, Gillian flynn trademark cool Girl 702 00:44:13,880 --> 00:44:18,120 Speaker 1: is one path toward that too. But I don't know, again, 703 00:44:18,160 --> 00:44:21,280 Speaker 1: like I don't want to put words and icoes mouth 704 00:44:21,400 --> 00:44:24,759 Speaker 1: at all, um, but the whole thing is just it's 705 00:44:24,800 --> 00:44:28,680 Speaker 1: really fascinating to look at how we focus on and 706 00:44:28,760 --> 00:44:34,839 Speaker 1: the media covers the medium and the images themselves and 707 00:44:34,840 --> 00:44:39,239 Speaker 1: focus so much on the femininity that we kind of 708 00:44:39,360 --> 00:44:43,520 Speaker 1: endowed into just the art rather than focusing more on 709 00:44:44,280 --> 00:44:49,040 Speaker 1: what the gender might be saying in the message of 710 00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,520 Speaker 1: the piece. I wonder if you know, if the message sometimes, 711 00:44:51,640 --> 00:44:55,160 Speaker 1: especially for street artists in the United States, if the 712 00:44:55,200 --> 00:44:58,279 Speaker 1: message sometimes gets lost because we're so focused on like, oh, 713 00:44:58,320 --> 00:45:01,480 Speaker 1: it's a woman doing it. So I'm really curious though, 714 00:45:01,560 --> 00:45:04,799 Speaker 1: to hear from people about this. We've talked a lot 715 00:45:04,800 --> 00:45:07,799 Speaker 1: about gender in this episode, but I mean, I just 716 00:45:07,880 --> 00:45:10,880 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's so so, so powerful for 717 00:45:10,920 --> 00:45:16,759 Speaker 1: women to be taking over these public spaces like well, 718 00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:19,719 Speaker 1: because it links back to something bigger than street art. 719 00:45:19,760 --> 00:45:24,239 Speaker 1: It links back to women being safe in public spaces. Yes, 720 00:45:24,280 --> 00:45:28,240 Speaker 1: do we want more women's street artists and street artists 721 00:45:28,239 --> 00:45:33,319 Speaker 1: of color and different ages like, yes, absolutely, but this 722 00:45:33,480 --> 00:45:36,960 Speaker 1: all links back to people being able to be safe 723 00:45:37,200 --> 00:45:42,480 Speaker 1: and respected in public spaces. And through this research, Caroline, 724 00:45:42,520 --> 00:45:47,520 Speaker 1: do you have a new faith? I really really love Vexta. 725 00:45:47,719 --> 00:45:51,040 Speaker 1: I do love her whimsical, like even if Vexta I 726 00:45:51,040 --> 00:45:54,719 Speaker 1: don't care what Vexta's gender is, but I love the 727 00:45:54,800 --> 00:45:59,520 Speaker 1: whimsical illustrations and the fact that you know, she'll paint 728 00:45:59,520 --> 00:46:01,319 Speaker 1: a skirt that almost looks like it's made up of 729 00:46:01,400 --> 00:46:04,080 Speaker 1: kites or something like. It's very I love. I love 730 00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:07,800 Speaker 1: that look. Yeah, I'm newly obsessed with Swoon. I wanna 731 00:46:07,960 --> 00:46:11,080 Speaker 1: I want to know everything about her and someone we 732 00:46:11,120 --> 00:46:15,640 Speaker 1: didn't mention who's a very mysterious figure that like Banksy, 733 00:46:15,800 --> 00:46:18,920 Speaker 1: we're not sure whether it is a dude or a lady. 734 00:46:19,360 --> 00:46:23,120 Speaker 1: Um Princess key Job in France who just goes around 735 00:46:23,280 --> 00:46:27,480 Speaker 1: tagging key jobs on um women and advertisements. I'm not 736 00:46:27,520 --> 00:46:29,839 Speaker 1: saying that she's necessarily like one of my favorites, because 737 00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:33,759 Speaker 1: it's not. It's not like artistic necessarily obviously, it's more 738 00:46:33,800 --> 00:46:39,720 Speaker 1: of the message. Um but yeah, Swoon's Miguel right now. 739 00:46:40,120 --> 00:46:44,080 Speaker 1: UM So, listeners, we want to know who your favorites are, 740 00:46:44,440 --> 00:46:47,399 Speaker 1: if you are a street artist or just an artist 741 00:46:47,440 --> 00:46:49,719 Speaker 1: in general, and if this has resonated with you, we 742 00:46:49,760 --> 00:46:54,240 Speaker 1: would loved to hear your insights on it. Mom Stuff 743 00:46:54,239 --> 00:46:57,160 Speaker 1: at how stuff works dot com is our email address. 744 00:46:57,200 --> 00:46:59,320 Speaker 1: You can also tweet us at mom Stuff podcast or 745 00:46:59,360 --> 00:47:02,080 Speaker 1: messages on Facebook, and I've got a couple of messages 746 00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:04,719 Speaker 1: to share with you when we come right back from 747 00:47:04,719 --> 00:47:09,040 Speaker 1: a quick break. Sometimes it feels like there aren't enough 748 00:47:09,160 --> 00:47:13,400 Speaker 1: hours in the day, even when you're working past the 749 00:47:13,400 --> 00:47:17,360 Speaker 1: whole nine to five. So if you're still making those 750 00:47:17,400 --> 00:47:21,080 Speaker 1: time consuming trips to the post office, y'all, you need 751 00:47:21,120 --> 00:47:25,480 Speaker 1: a better way for you. There is stamps dot Com. 752 00:47:25,480 --> 00:47:27,720 Speaker 1: With stamps dot com, you get the postage you need, 753 00:47:27,719 --> 00:47:30,439 Speaker 1: the instant you need it. You can buy and print 754 00:47:30,520 --> 00:47:33,879 Speaker 1: official US postage for any letter package right from your 755 00:47:33,920 --> 00:47:38,919 Speaker 1: computer and printer. It is quick and easy. You'll save 756 00:47:39,000 --> 00:47:41,520 Speaker 1: money with stamps dot Com too. It's just a fraction 757 00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:43,680 Speaker 1: of the cost of one of those expensive postage meters. 758 00:47:43,719 --> 00:47:47,160 Speaker 1: Plus you'll get special postage discounts you can't even find 759 00:47:47,160 --> 00:47:50,440 Speaker 1: at the post office. And right now, sign up for 760 00:47:50,480 --> 00:47:54,319 Speaker 1: stamps dot com and use our promo code stuff for 761 00:47:54,440 --> 00:47:57,360 Speaker 1: a special offer. It's a four week trial with a 762 00:47:57,400 --> 00:48:01,960 Speaker 1: one dollar bonus offer include postage at a digital scale. 763 00:48:02,520 --> 00:48:06,480 Speaker 1: So get started with stamps dot Com today. Within minutes, 764 00:48:06,640 --> 00:48:10,120 Speaker 1: you'll be printing postage right from your desk. Go to 765 00:48:10,160 --> 00:48:12,799 Speaker 1: stamps dot com. Before you do anything else, click on 766 00:48:12,840 --> 00:48:15,400 Speaker 1: the microphone at the top of the homepage and type 767 00:48:15,400 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 1: in stuff that's stamps dot com. Enter stuff, and now 768 00:48:20,600 --> 00:48:27,719 Speaker 1: back to the show. Well, I have a letter here 769 00:48:27,760 --> 00:48:31,360 Speaker 1: from Helen in response to our two part series on abortion. 770 00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,239 Speaker 1: She says, I want to write and share my and 771 00:48:34,360 --> 00:48:36,840 Speaker 1: my family's story and thank you for covering this important 772 00:48:36,880 --> 00:48:40,000 Speaker 1: topic on your show. I was already familiar with most 773 00:48:40,040 --> 00:48:42,520 Speaker 1: of the history you share through the gender studies classes 774 00:48:42,560 --> 00:48:45,200 Speaker 1: I took in college, my work as a volunteer at 775 00:48:45,200 --> 00:48:49,000 Speaker 1: Planned Parenthood, as well as my own family stories. Even 776 00:48:49,000 --> 00:48:51,160 Speaker 1: with this prior knowledge, it was wonderful to hear the 777 00:48:51,200 --> 00:48:54,360 Speaker 1: history again, especially with the current political climate around abortion 778 00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:58,000 Speaker 1: and reproductive rights. Women's health and reproductive rights have long 779 00:48:58,080 --> 00:48:59,960 Speaker 1: been held close to my heart due to my upbringing. 780 00:49:00,520 --> 00:49:03,280 Speaker 1: My parents have always been proud supporters of planned parenthood, 781 00:49:03,280 --> 00:49:05,440 Speaker 1: after their time in their twenties when it was their 782 00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:08,279 Speaker 1: only affordable form of healthcare and away for them to 783 00:49:08,320 --> 00:49:11,480 Speaker 1: delay having children until they'd established careers. Both of my 784 00:49:11,520 --> 00:49:14,919 Speaker 1: grandmothers are also very adamant about fighting for reproductive rights 785 00:49:14,920 --> 00:49:17,600 Speaker 1: and are agassed at the current trend of taking abortion 786 00:49:17,600 --> 00:49:21,200 Speaker 1: and birth control access and rights away. One of my grandmothers, 787 00:49:21,200 --> 00:49:23,720 Speaker 1: who grew up very poor and with little access to services, 788 00:49:23,719 --> 00:49:26,960 Speaker 1: will often tell me, we already fought for these rights, 789 00:49:27,000 --> 00:49:30,040 Speaker 1: how can this be happening. My other grandmother has often 790 00:49:30,040 --> 00:49:32,120 Speaker 1: share the story of how one of her childhood friends 791 00:49:32,160 --> 00:49:34,640 Speaker 1: lost her life at the age of sixteen because of 792 00:49:34,680 --> 00:49:38,400 Speaker 1: an illegal abortion. Hearing these stories from my grandmothers and 793 00:49:38,400 --> 00:49:40,880 Speaker 1: the history of abortion in America helps to inspire me 794 00:49:40,920 --> 00:49:43,759 Speaker 1: to continue supporting reproductive rights and health care access for 795 00:49:43,840 --> 00:49:47,239 Speaker 1: all women. Thanks Helen, I've got a let her here 796 00:49:47,360 --> 00:49:52,799 Speaker 1: from Peggy also about our abortion episode Part one in particular, 797 00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:56,759 Speaker 1: and she writes. Particularly interesting to me was your discussion 798 00:49:56,760 --> 00:50:01,319 Speaker 1: of the professionalization of medicine and its impact on reproductive rights. 799 00:50:01,360 --> 00:50:03,799 Speaker 1: I'm working on a master's degree and recently did a 800 00:50:03,800 --> 00:50:06,920 Speaker 1: short research project on the history of midwives in Spain 801 00:50:07,360 --> 00:50:11,480 Speaker 1: from the fourteenth to the eighteenth century. Through my limited research, 802 00:50:11,520 --> 00:50:14,080 Speaker 1: I was able to find various laws in medical texts 803 00:50:14,080 --> 00:50:17,440 Speaker 1: that show a continued effort to exclude women from the profession. 804 00:50:18,000 --> 00:50:20,000 Speaker 1: While money is always part of the reason for wanting 805 00:50:20,000 --> 00:50:23,080 Speaker 1: to exclude women, it was also considered very dangerous to 806 00:50:23,120 --> 00:50:25,600 Speaker 1: allow women to work as midwives because they had the 807 00:50:25,600 --> 00:50:28,479 Speaker 1: power to baptize a baby if they believed the baby 808 00:50:28,520 --> 00:50:32,839 Speaker 1: would die before priests would arrive to perform the right. Additionally, 809 00:50:33,200 --> 00:50:36,839 Speaker 1: medical texts refer to women as careless, impatient, and ignorant. 810 00:50:37,400 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: Surgeons attended births that were considered dangerous and difficult and 811 00:50:40,880 --> 00:50:43,960 Speaker 1: were allowed to use forceps. Use of any tools by 812 00:50:43,960 --> 00:50:48,600 Speaker 1: midwives was strictly prohibited. As the professionalization of medicine progressed, 813 00:50:48,760 --> 00:50:51,120 Speaker 1: stricter and stricter laws were passed in an effort to 814 00:50:51,160 --> 00:50:54,960 Speaker 1: control who could attend to birth. In seventeen fifty, a 815 00:50:55,040 --> 00:50:57,879 Speaker 1: new law was passed that listed a series of requirements 816 00:50:57,880 --> 00:51:01,719 Speaker 1: that must be met by anyone who wanted to practice midwiffery. 817 00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,160 Speaker 1: One traveled to a government office to submit the application. 818 00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:09,760 Speaker 1: To submit proof proof of pure blood, which was proof 819 00:51:09,840 --> 00:51:13,280 Speaker 1: the applicant was not of Muslim or Jewish heritage. Hello. 820 00:51:14,320 --> 00:51:18,920 Speaker 1: Three pay one dred rials for submit a certificate of baptism, 821 00:51:18,960 --> 00:51:21,719 Speaker 1: and five submit the written testimony of the doctor or 822 00:51:21,800 --> 00:51:24,839 Speaker 1: midwife they had practiced under for at least two years. 823 00:51:25,200 --> 00:51:27,400 Speaker 1: And if this individual was dead, they had to present 824 00:51:27,440 --> 00:51:31,120 Speaker 1: a burial certificate. While these might seem like simple requirements, 825 00:51:31,160 --> 00:51:33,800 Speaker 1: literacy among women was very low, and women needed permission 826 00:51:33,840 --> 00:51:37,120 Speaker 1: to travel and have money. In sevent eighty the word 827 00:51:37,360 --> 00:51:40,839 Speaker 1: como drawn or mad midwife appears for the first time 828 00:51:41,040 --> 00:51:44,279 Speaker 1: in the Royal Spanish Academy Dictionary. I hope you find 829 00:51:44,320 --> 00:51:48,000 Speaker 1: this information as fascinating as I do. I have more info, 830 00:51:48,080 --> 00:51:51,640 Speaker 1: but tried to pull the most interesting bits. We found 831 00:51:51,719 --> 00:51:55,440 Speaker 1: it interesting indeed, and also a little bit raging. So 832 00:51:55,560 --> 00:51:58,120 Speaker 1: thank you so much for sharing, Peggy, and thanks to 833 00:51:58,120 --> 00:52:01,000 Speaker 1: everybody who's written into us. Mom's stuff at how stuff 834 00:52:01,000 --> 00:52:03,480 Speaker 1: works dot com is our email address and for links 835 00:52:03,480 --> 00:52:05,160 Speaker 1: to all of our social media as well as all 836 00:52:05,200 --> 00:52:08,920 Speaker 1: of our blogs, videos, and podcasts with our sources so 837 00:52:09,040 --> 00:52:12,719 Speaker 1: you can learn more about women in street art. Head 838 00:52:12,760 --> 00:52:19,799 Speaker 1: on over to stuff Mom Never Told You dot com 839 00:52:19,800 --> 00:52:22,239 Speaker 1: for more on this and thousands of other topics. Does 840 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:31,400 Speaker 1: it How stuff works dot com