WEBVTT - Ten Percent Less Anxiety 0:00:08.560 --> 0:00:11.400 This is the Anxiety Bites podcast, and I am your host, 0:00:11.560 --> 0:00:17.400 Jen Kirkman. I'm so excited about our guest today, Dan Harris. 0:00:17.480 --> 0:00:20.920 I am such a fan. I love his podcast ten 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:25.360 Percent Happier, where he interviews people about mostly meditation, but 0:00:25.400 --> 0:00:28.320 a lot of other things in the realm of meditation 0:00:28.360 --> 0:00:32.320 and also anxiety, and his books ten Percent Happier High 0:00:32.360 --> 0:00:34.640 Tamed the Voice in My Head and his second book, 0:00:34.680 --> 0:00:39.080 Meditation for Fidgety Skeptics. Now, this is not a meditation episode. However, 0:00:39.920 --> 0:00:42.960 I really wanted to talk to Dan Moore about his 0:00:43.120 --> 0:00:47.239 story because you know, Dan's got solutions for us all 0:00:47.360 --> 0:00:49.839 day long. We do get to some of them in 0:00:49.840 --> 0:00:53.440 this interview. But I also think sometimes stories are really 0:00:53.479 --> 0:00:56.800 an important part of our recovery with anxiety. You know 0:00:56.840 --> 0:00:59.640 a lot of times people will say, oh, well, you 0:00:59.680 --> 0:01:01.720 know I do this, I do that from anxiety. But 0:01:02.240 --> 0:01:05.000 since Dan is a mere mortal like the rest of us, 0:01:05.000 --> 0:01:07.760 he's not a neuroscientist. He didn't set out in life 0:01:07.760 --> 0:01:11.320 to study anxiety or meditation or mindfulness or learning how 0:01:11.319 --> 0:01:13.480 to be less angrier, learning how to be less type A. 0:01:13.760 --> 0:01:17.080 He was an ABC News anchor for decades. He was 0:01:17.080 --> 0:01:23.280 an adrenaline junkie, he was a at one time drug user, competitive, 0:01:23.440 --> 0:01:26.360 you know, all all kinds of things that I wanted 0:01:26.400 --> 0:01:30.160 to hear what his story was. What's it like to 0:01:30.200 --> 0:01:34.520 be so type A that you're all jammed up inside 0:01:34.520 --> 0:01:37.160 and you end up having a panic attack on air 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.360 on ABC News, which he did, and we we have 0:01:40.480 --> 0:01:43.400 linked to that panic attack in the show notes, And 0:01:43.440 --> 0:01:45.559 I'm not doing that to torture Dan. He talks about 0:01:45.600 --> 0:01:48.120 it in his book, Tim Happier. He's happy to talk 0:01:48.160 --> 0:01:51.320 about it. But I just wanted people to know, you know, 0:01:51.440 --> 0:01:55.240 successful people can have panic attacks, they can have anxiety. 0:01:55.640 --> 0:01:57.520 I mean, I know everybody knows this, but just maybe 0:01:57.560 --> 0:01:59.800 there's one person going I don't believe it. I think 0:01:59.840 --> 0:02:04.960 he got successful and that's what made him ultimately stop 0:02:05.080 --> 0:02:08.120 using drugs, and you know, that's what helped him with 0:02:08.160 --> 0:02:10.079 his meditation. But and it's like, no, but he was 0:02:10.120 --> 0:02:14.680 successful already, but something wasn't working, and he knew he 0:02:14.720 --> 0:02:17.680 had to start to look at his anxiety, his neurosis. 0:02:18.760 --> 0:02:21.800 So I wanted to talk about how panic attacks can 0:02:21.840 --> 0:02:24.400 come out of the blue, when they start almost later 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.120 in life. What it's like to be a type of 0:02:26.200 --> 0:02:29.240 person who was always afraid of losing their edge, And 0:02:29.320 --> 0:02:33.640 does getting help make you lose your edge? Does starting 0:02:33.680 --> 0:02:37.400 to meditate every day? Does being mindful of your own thoughts? 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.519 Does that make you less able to succeed? I mean, 0:02:40.880 --> 0:02:44.639 in Dan's case, the answer is no. And he has 0:02:44.720 --> 0:02:47.440 now transitioned out of working for ABC News to doing 0:02:47.560 --> 0:02:50.359 full time. You know the media company he created, tim 0:02:50.360 --> 0:02:53.000 per cent Happy, or there's an app, there's the podcast. 0:02:53.040 --> 0:02:54.880 All of that is linked to in the show notes. 0:02:55.480 --> 0:02:57.760 And I have a special affinity for Dan because he 0:02:57.880 --> 0:03:01.880 is also a gen X person from Boston. He's grew 0:03:01.960 --> 0:03:03.360 up in the town next to me. We didn't know 0:03:03.400 --> 0:03:07.120 each other, but I just like his no bullshit approach 0:03:07.400 --> 0:03:10.440 to the way that he tries to help others. He 0:03:10.520 --> 0:03:13.520 doesn't claim he's figured it all out, he doesn't claim 0:03:14.000 --> 0:03:18.519 he's fixed, and he doesn't talk in a whispery voice. Now, 0:03:18.520 --> 0:03:21.200 if you naturally have a whispery voice, go off. I 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.480 love that for you. But he doesn't adopt any fake 0:03:24.760 --> 0:03:28.400 guru persona. So I hope you enjoy my talk with 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:30.480 Dan as much as I enjoyed chatting to him again. 0:03:30.520 --> 0:03:33.440 I could talk to him about a million different things 0:03:34.040 --> 0:03:36.400 and at the end of the interview, I I thought, 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:38.800 oh God, I didn't I wish there was more. I 0:03:38.800 --> 0:03:40.760 could have let him just go on and on more about, 0:03:41.360 --> 0:03:45.200 you know, more solutions. But again, I do think sometimes 0:03:45.200 --> 0:03:49.600 we need to hear a really good backstory and just 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.480 hear about how someone had no idea how to get help, 0:03:53.520 --> 0:03:59.360 and then it's sort of just organically presented itself to him. 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:01.120 And I know there's part of the interview where I 0:04:01.160 --> 0:04:04.000 really don't need to go into it, but I egged 0:04:04.040 --> 0:04:06.800 Dan On to tell a story that he wrote about 0:04:06.800 --> 0:04:09.680 in his book Timber Cent Happier, about meeting eck Art totally, 0:04:09.760 --> 0:04:14.720 who claims Mr Totley does that he never has any 0:04:15.120 --> 0:04:18.359 negative thoughts or negative emotions anymore. He had a complete enlightenment. 0:04:18.400 --> 0:04:20.240 And I just find that hard to believe. I'm not 0:04:20.279 --> 0:04:23.200 saying he's lying. I just don't comprehend it. And those 0:04:23.279 --> 0:04:28.520 kind of people, they don't help me, because as as 0:04:28.600 --> 0:04:31.080 Dan Harris says, he's just trying to be Timber Sun Happier. 0:04:31.760 --> 0:04:34.720 And sometimes I think it can be intimidating when someone 0:04:34.760 --> 0:04:36.960 says they've got all the answers and look at them, 0:04:37.000 --> 0:04:39.719 they've never had a bad feeling again. Now what happens 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:42.760 when you try to use some of their tools and 0:04:42.839 --> 0:04:46.680 you don't reach enlightenment. I I honestly, I don't know. 0:04:46.720 --> 0:04:49.840 I almost feel like people who if this eck Art 0:04:49.839 --> 0:04:52.440 totally really has reached enlightenment, I think he should not 0:04:52.600 --> 0:04:55.440 tell us because we're not ever going to get there. 0:04:55.640 --> 0:04:58.600 He's probably the one. I don't know this is I'm 0:04:58.680 --> 0:05:01.000 just rambling at this point, but talking to Dan made 0:05:01.000 --> 0:05:03.599 me very happy because what he does on his podcast 0:05:03.800 --> 0:05:07.920 is exactly what I would want to do with this one. 0:05:08.080 --> 0:05:12.440 Anxiety Bites is just real people, real talk about anxiety, 0:05:12.520 --> 0:05:17.279 and nobody's here to be a guru and whisper. Although 0:05:17.279 --> 0:05:19.240 I am wearing a long flowing robe right now, you 0:05:19.320 --> 0:05:21.839 just can't see it anyway. I hope you enjoy my 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:24.800 chat with Dan Harris as much as I did see 0:05:24.839 --> 0:05:30.039 on the other side. Welcome to another episode of Anxiety Bites. 0:05:30.120 --> 0:05:34.000 My guest today is Dan Harris. You may know him 0:05:34.040 --> 0:05:38.400 from his hugely successful podcast Ten Percent Happier. He also 0:05:38.480 --> 0:05:41.760 has an app called ten percent Happier. We'll talk about that. 0:05:41.880 --> 0:05:45.279 You also may know him from watching the news on ABC. 0:05:45.920 --> 0:05:48.919 I'm so happy he's here and Dan thank you again 0:05:49.000 --> 0:05:51.520 for being on my show, my pleasure. I don't think 0:05:51.520 --> 0:05:53.719 i've seen you since you came on my show. It's 0:05:53.760 --> 0:05:56.360 been years. It's and thank you for letting me come 0:05:56.360 --> 0:06:00.560 on your fantastic show before. Um, you know, I was 0:06:00.600 --> 0:06:02.760 just I'm just an idiot. I'm just an idiot comedian 0:06:02.800 --> 0:06:07.240 who meditates, and you let me on there somehow. Well, 0:06:07.440 --> 0:06:10.240 you're a good company. I'm just an idiot reporter who meditates, 0:06:10.279 --> 0:06:12.320 so it's all good. Well, you know, I was going 0:06:12.360 --> 0:06:15.719 to tell you that I think comedians and reporters have 0:06:15.800 --> 0:06:17.480 a lot in common in the way that we approach 0:06:17.520 --> 0:06:21.280 our audience. So we do this invoking that invisible third 0:06:21.279 --> 0:06:25.080 party critic in order to kind of get people out 0:06:25.080 --> 0:06:27.920 of the route answers that they always give because we're 0:06:27.960 --> 0:06:31.440 sitting there going no, I know, someone is listening going yeah, yeah, yeah, 0:06:31.480 --> 0:06:32.880 I don't know what you mean. There's no wrong way 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:35.720 to meditate. Like you say that, not you, but a 0:06:35.760 --> 0:06:39.120 person says that, and it's like, I want I almost 0:06:39.120 --> 0:06:41.920 come from the negative when I'm interviewing and when I'm 0:06:41.960 --> 0:06:44.719 doing comedy. That's how I keep the audience from heckling me, 0:06:44.760 --> 0:06:46.200 is that I know what they're going to say before 0:06:46.240 --> 0:06:49.159 they say it, I'll say it first, so I think 0:06:49.160 --> 0:06:52.280 you may appreciate this interview and that I will keep 0:06:52.400 --> 0:06:56.160 you know, digging further for you know, what exactly does 0:06:56.200 --> 0:06:59.599 that mean? Um, and I've been really excited to have 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:02.520 you on because you're one of my favorite I mean, 0:07:02.560 --> 0:07:05.200 I see you as a a self help guru. I 0:07:05.240 --> 0:07:08.200 know you would not say that about yourself, but you 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:10.920 are around my age. I think you're a little older, 0:07:11.000 --> 0:07:14.360 just a couple of years. And uh, we're from basically 0:07:14.400 --> 0:07:17.320 the same town in Massachusetts. And one next reason you've 0:07:17.360 --> 0:07:20.360 got this gen X no bullshit. By the way, if 0:07:20.360 --> 0:07:24.840 you want, you can swear on my podcast. So let's 0:07:24.880 --> 0:07:30.440 start here. Um, you had a panic attack on the 0:07:30.480 --> 0:07:34.800 air in two thousand four, and that is sort of 0:07:34.920 --> 0:07:40.040 one of the things that started you on your I 0:07:40.040 --> 0:07:43.640 Guess journey. Sorry for that word of trying to figure 0:07:43.640 --> 0:07:46.120 out what the hell is wrong with you and how 0:07:46.200 --> 0:07:49.160 you can I guess A does not have panic attacks 0:07:49.160 --> 0:07:52.200 on air. But one of the things that was interesting, 0:07:52.240 --> 0:07:53.800 and we'll link it in the show notes. You can 0:07:53.800 --> 0:07:56.880 all watch Dan have a panic attack. What's so interesting 0:07:56.920 --> 0:07:59.200 as someone who has panicked disorder? And I've panicked as well. 0:08:00.320 --> 0:08:02.840 It's not that bad. You know, you're not freaking out. 0:08:02.880 --> 0:08:05.720 You did end the segment. You were just reading the news, right, 0:08:05.720 --> 0:08:08.240 You ended the segment really early, and it just looks 0:08:08.240 --> 0:08:10.120 like you can't breathe. It looks more to me, to 0:08:10.160 --> 0:08:13.240 the uninitiated, like an asthma attack. So if you could 0:08:13.280 --> 0:08:15.920 take us through, and we'll get into your whole history 0:08:15.960 --> 0:08:17.360 and what caused it and all that, but take us 0:08:17.400 --> 0:08:20.120 through that day two thousand four, you're on the air, 0:08:20.200 --> 0:08:23.080 what happened and how did it feel in your body? Yeah, 0:08:23.080 --> 0:08:25.400 I mean that's You're right. If you look at the video, 0:08:25.880 --> 0:08:28.000 a lot of people feel like it doesn't It doesn't 0:08:28.000 --> 0:08:30.280 look that bad. I mean, that's what happens when a 0:08:30.400 --> 0:08:33.240 robot slash sociopath as a panic attack. It just doesn't 0:08:33.240 --> 0:08:35.880 look that that. You thought of yourself as a sociopath 0:08:35.920 --> 0:08:42.240 back then, only facetiously. Um, I was in my mid thirties. 0:08:42.320 --> 0:08:44.760 I had been on an anchorman really since I was 0:08:44.800 --> 0:08:47.120 twenty two, So I had a lot of experience with, 0:08:47.400 --> 0:08:51.319 you know, keeping my ship together and in tough circumstances, 0:08:51.320 --> 0:08:54.760 and I had covered wars and so I was able 0:08:54.800 --> 0:08:56.680 to hold it together. But you know, if if I 0:08:56.720 --> 0:09:00.680 didn't have the main hosts of the show, Charlie Gibson 0:09:00.679 --> 0:09:03.120 and Diane Sawyer, if I didn't have the opportunity to 0:09:03.280 --> 0:09:06.000 throw back to them because I was in I was 0:09:06.120 --> 0:09:07.760 the person who came on at the top of the 0:09:07.800 --> 0:09:10.120 hour and read a few headlines on Good Morning America. 0:09:10.559 --> 0:09:12.679 If I didn't have the opportunity to say back to you, 0:09:13.520 --> 0:09:15.800 it would have been horrible. I would have probably ripped 0:09:15.800 --> 0:09:17.760 the mic off and run away or started to cry. 0:09:17.800 --> 0:09:22.080 I don't know, but that was that was the out. UM. 0:09:22.120 --> 0:09:26.240 So when the question the question when you say back 0:09:26.280 --> 0:09:28.720 to you, UM, for anyone listening, that means they have 0:09:28.880 --> 0:09:32.520 to then take back the broadcast. So you you didn't 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:34.720 read all of the headlines. You read one of them 0:09:34.800 --> 0:09:37.280 and then went out back to you. Right, I read. 0:09:37.800 --> 0:09:40.120 I think I soldiered through two or three out of 0:09:40.120 --> 0:09:42.200 six or seven that I was supposed to read. And 0:09:42.240 --> 0:09:45.160 you can hear that my like throat is tightening and 0:09:45.200 --> 0:09:48.800 I'm having trouble breathing and I'm gulping for air. I mean, 0:09:48.880 --> 0:09:51.880 if it's not good. So what I was wondering is 0:09:52.080 --> 0:09:53.760 you know, what did that feel like in your body 0:09:53.760 --> 0:09:56.040 when it was happening. What did it feel like in 0:09:56.080 --> 0:09:59.120 my body? Terrible? It's like having a heart attack. You know, 0:09:59.240 --> 0:10:03.480 you're or the way it goes is and you know this, Jim, 0:10:03.520 --> 0:10:07.080 because you've unfortunately had had panicked yourself. The way it 0:10:07.120 --> 0:10:10.160 goes is one thing starts it, and the and and 0:10:10.240 --> 0:10:12.160 then the other thing makes it worse. So it could 0:10:12.160 --> 0:10:15.120 be that your mind starts telling stories like, oh man, 0:10:15.240 --> 0:10:17.840 you just screwed that up, or five million people are 0:10:17.840 --> 0:10:22.120 watching this or whatever, and you start to have psychological anxiety, 0:10:22.200 --> 0:10:25.200 and then your body kicks in and starts to go 0:10:25.240 --> 0:10:27.600 into mutiny mode where your heart is racing, your lungs 0:10:27.600 --> 0:10:30.800 sees up, your your palms get sweaty, your mouth dries up. 0:10:31.200 --> 0:10:33.720 So what it's one or the other starts it, so 0:10:33.800 --> 0:10:36.440 your body, you might notice your body first, and then 0:10:36.480 --> 0:10:40.120 your mind starts freaking out. But then you get into 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:44.000 a vicious cycle because the more your body's um in 0:10:44.080 --> 0:10:46.480 mutiny mode, the more your mind goes into freak out mode, 0:10:46.520 --> 0:10:48.199 and that makes the body worse, and then that makes 0:10:48.240 --> 0:10:50.560 the mind worse, and on and on and on um 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:54.120 And it's it's really anxiety which many of us have felt, 0:10:54.520 --> 0:10:56.719 either in a chronic way, or in a in a 0:10:57.679 --> 0:11:01.319 cute or circumstantial way, you might just call that fear. 0:11:01.640 --> 0:11:07.960 It's it's that on steroids. It's our evolutionary, evolutionarily wired 0:11:08.760 --> 0:11:13.560 fight or flight impulse being triggered in inappropriate circumstances. We 0:11:13.640 --> 0:11:16.040 are wired to have this as a life saving mechanism 0:11:16.040 --> 0:11:19.920 when we're confronted with the tiger. But now we are 0:11:20.600 --> 0:11:23.840 both the tiger and the person being confronted by the tiger. 0:11:23.920 --> 0:11:27.559 We are making this happen to ourselves. That's interesting and 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:28.959 I'm going to get to that in a minute. That 0:11:29.120 --> 0:11:34.440 the very keyword inappropriate, um reaction. So yeah, in your book, 0:11:34.480 --> 0:11:37.320 timber Cent Happier, which I mean, it's so great. Everyone 0:11:37.400 --> 0:11:38.920 get this book. I'm holding it up. This is not 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:42.120 a video podcast, but um, what I love about timber 0:11:42.160 --> 0:11:46.080 Cent Happier is it really takes everyone through you know, 0:11:46.160 --> 0:11:48.720 your life as a journalist. And and you said in 0:11:48.760 --> 0:11:51.800 the intro that you wanted to name the book initially 0:11:51.880 --> 0:11:54.920 the voice in my head is an asshole. And I 0:11:54.960 --> 0:11:56.800 love that. And I think in that moment your voice 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:58.920 in your head was this is one instance where the 0:11:58.960 --> 0:12:00.480 voice in your head was being an So it was 0:12:00.559 --> 0:12:04.200 not at all, Um, you know, looking around rationally and 0:12:04.240 --> 0:12:06.400 telling you what was actually happening. It was just making 0:12:06.480 --> 0:12:09.719 up lies, almost as though your mind was a competing 0:12:09.760 --> 0:12:15.679 anchor who wanted your job. Yes. So one thing that 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.920 you do talk about in the book when you you 0:12:17.960 --> 0:12:21.040 talk about this experience, is you call it air hunger. 0:12:21.160 --> 0:12:23.880 And you know, in all my years of panicking and 0:12:24.480 --> 0:12:27.120 getting help for it, I actually had never heard air hunger. 0:12:27.160 --> 0:12:29.560 Can you tell us about what that means? It's a 0:12:29.559 --> 0:12:31.880 bit I use it as a as a bit of 0:12:31.920 --> 0:12:35.520 a double entendre the phrase. I only heard it because 0:12:35.520 --> 0:12:38.199 I happen to be married to a pulmonologist, a lung doctor. 0:12:38.400 --> 0:12:41.400 Oh my god, that is you. You are so lucky. 0:12:41.520 --> 0:12:43.800 I mean, anyone with anxiety and panic, that is the 0:12:43.920 --> 0:12:48.040 person to be married to. So jealous. Better than a therapist, Yes, 0:12:48.160 --> 0:12:50.520 but she she's altually a pretty good therapist. As it 0:12:50.559 --> 0:12:55.320 turns out. She married a neurotic, so she she better 0:12:55.360 --> 0:13:00.560 be um so she she I heard this expression through 0:13:00.640 --> 0:13:03.280 her talking about her work, where she would often intubate 0:13:03.360 --> 0:13:07.080 people or you know, she was a pulmonologist who worked 0:13:07.080 --> 0:13:09.880 in I see us for for much much of the 0:13:10.040 --> 0:13:12.599 early part of our marriage. So air hunger meant you 0:13:12.679 --> 0:13:17.319 couldn't breathe and you needed to be put on mechanical 0:13:17.559 --> 0:13:20.880 ventilation often. And I also used it as a double 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:25.600 encounter because it was about this. The time during which 0:13:25.640 --> 0:13:27.199 I had the panic attack was the time where I 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:31.160 had sort of ambition on steroids and I was hungry 0:13:31.200 --> 0:13:32.520 to be on the air all the time. I was 0:13:32.640 --> 0:13:36.839 really competing to to uh, you know, beat out my 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:38.920 colleagues and get the big story and get the big 0:13:38.960 --> 0:13:41.640 assignments and get the job as an anchorman. And I 0:13:41.679 --> 0:13:45.040 had spent a lot of time in war zones um before, 0:13:45.360 --> 0:13:47.280 and in fact, I think that's really what precipitated the 0:13:47.320 --> 0:13:49.000 panic attack. I had spent a lot of time in 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:53.480 war zones and come home and had some psychological problems 0:13:53.520 --> 0:13:58.199 and then self medicated with recreational drugs, and all of 0:13:58.320 --> 0:14:02.120 that I think really led to me having a panic attack. Yeah, 0:14:02.160 --> 0:14:04.440 it's interesting with a panic attack that it never really 0:14:04.520 --> 0:14:06.800 is about anything that's happening in that moment, right. It's 0:14:06.800 --> 0:14:09.200 always kind of this build up where like you almost 0:14:09.240 --> 0:14:11.839 can't take it anymore. It's the straw that breaks the 0:14:11.880 --> 0:14:14.160 camel's back. You just it's not really about anything that 0:14:14.200 --> 0:14:16.240 happened that day, but it could be the build up 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.160 of the drugs in your system, even if you hadn't 0:14:18.240 --> 0:14:20.480 taken any drugs, you know, weeks up to the panic attack. 0:14:20.560 --> 0:14:23.600 But and that's what I find so interesting is you know, 0:14:23.720 --> 0:14:26.160 so this panic attack was in two thousand four, and 0:14:26.880 --> 0:14:30.040 according to your book, so right after nine eleven, which 0:14:30.320 --> 0:14:33.320 obviously was the biggest jolt of anxiety that America had 0:14:33.520 --> 0:14:36.080 in a while, especially New Yorkers. You're in New York 0:14:36.200 --> 0:14:38.480 and you get sent to to our bar, You're like, yeah, 0:14:38.560 --> 0:14:40.880 let's do this. I'm going right to where bin Laden 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:43.600 is hiding. I mean, most people would not do that. 0:14:44.440 --> 0:14:47.640 And so it's funny to me that to the uninitiated, 0:14:48.320 --> 0:14:50.200 if they were on a quiz show and they said, 0:14:50.960 --> 0:14:53.080 tell me when Dan Harris had a panic attack? Was 0:14:53.160 --> 0:14:55.800 it when he was in Afghanistan intour bar after night eleven? 0:14:55.880 --> 0:14:57.160 Or was it when he was in the comfort of 0:14:57.200 --> 0:15:01.680 the ABC studios three years later? Mostly would guess in Afghanistan. 0:15:01.840 --> 0:15:04.280 So were you, in a way do you think an 0:15:04.280 --> 0:15:07.960 adrenaline junkie as well at a certain point, like trying 0:15:08.000 --> 0:15:09.800 to feel a live when you went to get those 0:15:09.840 --> 0:15:12.760 news stories, or was it really just work ambition? Like, 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:16.080 did you feel weirdly at ease in those war zones 0:15:16.200 --> 0:15:19.560 because it's almost like there's no time to panic, it's 0:15:19.640 --> 0:15:24.040 just survival and adrenaline. Yes, what you said is correct. Um, 0:15:24.320 --> 0:15:27.360 I was an adrenaline junk. He's probably still am in 0:15:27.480 --> 0:15:29.880 some ways, so not as much as I used to be. UM, 0:15:30.920 --> 0:15:34.240 I didn't really go into I started covering wars in 0:15:34.320 --> 0:15:36.840 my early thirties. I know, I had been a local 0:15:36.880 --> 0:15:38.840 news reporter for my twenties, and you know, there was 0:15:39.080 --> 0:15:43.520 there was no combat to speak of. UM, But I 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.920 liked the excitement of my job as a as a 0:15:47.000 --> 0:15:49.040 local news reporter. And then when I got ABC News, 0:15:49.160 --> 0:15:52.240 nine eleven happened, and obviously that was the biggest story 0:15:52.280 --> 0:15:56.520 in the planet. UH. Initially Afghanistan and then Iraq, and 0:15:57.400 --> 0:16:01.560 I wanted to be there. And I initially was motivated 0:16:01.680 --> 0:16:06.840 by a combination of curiosity, idealism, you know, really feeling 0:16:06.920 --> 0:16:08.920 that we needed to bear witness to what was happening 0:16:08.960 --> 0:16:13.520 at the tip of the spear, and ambitions. What really 0:16:13.640 --> 0:16:16.200 kicked into high gear once I got into war zones, 0:16:16.440 --> 0:16:19.120 something I had never experienced before was that how much 0:16:19.160 --> 0:16:22.440 I loved the adrenaline, It really feels like you are 0:16:22.560 --> 0:16:26.640 somewhere you are not supposed to be, and it's very exciting, 0:16:27.000 --> 0:16:31.200 and your existential crisis can can evaporate because you know 0:16:31.280 --> 0:16:35.240 what you're doing is important, it's really exciting, and you 0:16:35.320 --> 0:16:37.880 get on TV while doing it. And so I got 0:16:38.040 --> 0:16:40.760 really hooked. And the problems came when I would come 0:16:40.800 --> 0:16:43.960 home in the midst of this, and even though I 0:16:44.040 --> 0:16:46.440 still had a pretty exciting job as a you know, 0:16:46.760 --> 0:16:50.840 budding news anchor, it didn't compare to being in Afghanistan 0:16:51.000 --> 0:16:55.160 or being in a rock and is not shooting bullets 0:16:55.200 --> 0:16:58.440 by your hand sometimes through her eyes, m but not 0:16:58.840 --> 0:17:04.040 not not not literally. And I got depressed in those 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:06.840 periods of time, even though I didn't know I was depressed, 0:17:07.960 --> 0:17:11.119 and that's what led to the drug abuse. It's so 0:17:11.200 --> 0:17:13.680 funny to me, as a child from Boston, that you 0:17:13.920 --> 0:17:17.960 even tried cocaine, because I thought we'd all been successfully 0:17:18.040 --> 0:17:23.040 brainwashed by the by Lenn Bias, that was one of 0:17:23.080 --> 0:17:26.840 the Boston Celtics, a young recruit, and he oh deed 0:17:27.720 --> 0:17:31.920 um from cocaine overdose. And you know, I have remembered 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:34.760 my middle school gym teachers. We shuttled us all into 0:17:34.800 --> 0:17:38.400 the gymnasium and said Lenn Bias tried cocaine once everybody 0:17:38.440 --> 0:17:40.200 and died and we were like, oh my god, we 0:17:40.320 --> 0:17:42.320 never it was height of the eighties. Just say no. 0:17:42.480 --> 0:17:45.359 I mean I never tried cocaine. Even when I learned 0:17:45.480 --> 0:17:47.520 that that wasn't quite true, that it wasn't his first 0:17:47.560 --> 0:17:51.560 time trying it, We'll never try it. So I really 0:17:52.320 --> 0:17:54.399 had the same reaction. I mean, I was terrified. I 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.440 mean I was thirty two somewhere, pretty old to be 0:17:58.480 --> 0:18:02.399 trying cocaine for the first time. UM. But I was desperate. Uh. 0:18:03.160 --> 0:18:07.280 I was super depressed and feeling UM, I was feeling 0:18:07.920 --> 0:18:11.479 logi all the time. I felt physically bad all the time. UH. 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:15.480 And I was kind of lonely. A lot of my 0:18:15.560 --> 0:18:17.520 friends had moved away. And then I, you know, my 0:18:17.680 --> 0:18:20.159 real best friends were when I was covering war and 0:18:20.400 --> 0:18:22.320 I couldn't be with them all the time. And I 0:18:22.440 --> 0:18:24.600 was with a buddy one night and he offered me 0:18:24.680 --> 0:18:26.480 some and I don't know why I just said yes. 0:18:26.760 --> 0:18:29.280 By the way, I don't recommend cocaine. UM. I think 0:18:29.320 --> 0:18:33.000 it's it is addictive. UM, it probably doesn't kill people 0:18:33.119 --> 0:18:36.560 on the first use, um uh all that often. But 0:18:36.880 --> 0:18:40.440 but it's it is addictive, and um, the crash is 0:18:40.520 --> 0:18:43.720 really brutal. And so I'm not like, I'm not puritanically 0:18:43.840 --> 0:18:47.520 anti drug, but I'm not out here recommending you do cocaine. 0:18:47.560 --> 0:18:50.399 And stopping doing cocaine was very helpful to me in 0:18:50.560 --> 0:18:56.360 terms of not having panic attacks anymore. Anxiety bites will 0:18:56.400 --> 0:18:59.119 be right back after a quick little message from one 0:18:59.160 --> 0:19:12.000 of our sponsors. Let's talk about when you started to 0:19:12.000 --> 0:19:15.280 get into meditation. So, according to your book, you started 0:19:15.320 --> 0:19:19.640 to interview self help gurus anything from a deepunk show 0:19:19.680 --> 0:19:24.119 for two, you know, more snake oil salesman, Christian evangelical types. 0:19:24.600 --> 0:19:27.800 So you were looking for answers but making it part 0:19:27.840 --> 0:19:30.520 of your job in a way. You had that ability 0:19:30.680 --> 0:19:33.000 to say this is what this is the field I 0:19:33.040 --> 0:19:35.760 want to go into now. It was it was an 0:19:35.800 --> 0:19:40.520 incredible stroke of luck that I, post panic attack kind 0:19:40.560 --> 0:19:41.840 of was trying to figure out what to do with 0:19:42.000 --> 0:19:45.920 my mind in my life. First thing I did with 0:19:45.960 --> 0:19:48.200 the therapy and quit doing drugs and that was really 0:19:48.240 --> 0:19:52.680 really helpful. And then I had this ability, um to 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:57.399 go interview interesting people. UM I did. I had been 0:19:57.440 --> 0:20:01.720 assigned by Peter Jennings, um my then boss to cover 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:04.240 faith in spirituality, which I didn't want to do because 0:20:04.280 --> 0:20:09.119 I'm I'm agnostic from the People's Republic of Massachusetts and 0:20:09.480 --> 0:20:12.399 it was not particularly and your parents were scientists, so 0:20:12.440 --> 0:20:15.520 it's not like you were this like religious household, right, correct. 0:20:16.200 --> 0:20:17.920 I did have a bar mitzvah, but I I like 0:20:18.160 --> 0:20:20.680 I always joked that I only did that for the money. Uh. 0:20:20.920 --> 0:20:24.400 So I was not at all interested in spirituality. Then 0:20:25.520 --> 0:20:29.800 over time I used that gig to start interviewing self 0:20:29.840 --> 0:20:34.840 help gurus, etcetera, etcetera, and through that I found meditation. 0:20:35.600 --> 0:20:37.840 So and I'm gonna take us back through that story 0:20:37.920 --> 0:20:40.040 from the Eckart totally to the mark Epstein. But did 0:20:40.080 --> 0:20:42.359 your therapist say anything helpful in the sense of what 0:20:42.520 --> 0:20:44.760 to do about panic and anxiety or did you find 0:20:44.880 --> 0:20:48.960 that you you needed more? Were you doing cognitive behavior 0:20:49.040 --> 0:20:52.560 therapy for panic attacks? Yeah? So he was really great. 0:20:52.960 --> 0:20:55.480 He had a couple of mechanisms. One was, don't do 0:20:55.640 --> 0:20:59.399 cocaine anymore. Uh. The other was he gave me some 0:20:59.640 --> 0:21:03.359 drugs that were helpful, um uh prescribed drugs. One of 0:21:03.440 --> 0:21:06.840 them is called beta blockers UM, which for anybody who's 0:21:06.840 --> 0:21:10.520 got uh stage fright or performance anxiety of any sort, 0:21:11.320 --> 0:21:13.920 or or if you're just going into a stressful meeting 0:21:13.960 --> 0:21:17.000 with your boss and you're worried about panicking. Beta blockers 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:21.080 are a non narcotic prescription class of drugs that can 0:21:21.760 --> 0:21:25.000 stop your heart from beating too fast and block the 0:21:25.080 --> 0:21:28.200 release of cortisol. I believe I'm not a doctor, so 0:21:28.280 --> 0:21:30.280 if I got that wrong, I apologize. But anyway, he 0:21:30.440 --> 0:21:32.040 those were a couple of things he did. He tried 0:21:32.119 --> 0:21:36.280 to do cognitive behavioral therapy around my fear about being 0:21:36.320 --> 0:21:39.440 on TV, but it didn't work because you can't. I 0:21:39.560 --> 0:21:41.159 know when I'm live and I when I'm not. So 0:21:41.240 --> 0:21:42.639 you can put a TV camera in front of me, 0:21:42.720 --> 0:21:45.400 but if I am not, if I'm aware that it's 0:21:45.400 --> 0:21:47.960 not beamed out right now to five million people, I'm 0:21:48.000 --> 0:21:51.320