1 00:00:06,400 --> 00:00:09,959 Speaker 1: Hello, and welcome back to Drilled. I'm Amy Westerwaldt. Today 2 00:00:10,000 --> 00:00:14,640 Speaker 1: we are bringing you another episode in our series Drilling Deep, 3 00:00:14,840 --> 00:00:17,759 Speaker 1: in which we look at different books that are coming out, 4 00:00:17,880 --> 00:00:21,440 Speaker 1: either on climate or on science or history, democracy, all 5 00:00:21,480 --> 00:00:24,000 Speaker 1: of the things that we kind of look at here 6 00:00:24,040 --> 00:00:27,960 Speaker 1: on Drilled. Most of the time these interviews are being 7 00:00:28,000 --> 00:00:31,880 Speaker 1: done by Adam Lowenstein, Bless him. He's reading all the 8 00:00:31,920 --> 00:00:33,919 Speaker 1: books and talking to all the authors and having these 9 00:00:34,040 --> 00:00:35,800 Speaker 1: very very interesting conversations. 10 00:00:36,440 --> 00:00:38,040 Speaker 2: Today we're bringing. 11 00:00:37,680 --> 00:00:39,080 Speaker 1: You a book that has a lot to do with 12 00:00:39,120 --> 00:00:42,720 Speaker 1: what's happening in climate politics at the moment, because the 13 00:00:42,720 --> 00:00:46,760 Speaker 1: annual conference of the Parties, the UN Climate Summit, is 14 00:00:46,880 --> 00:00:50,000 Speaker 1: underway at the moment in Brazil, and it's a good 15 00:00:50,040 --> 00:00:54,400 Speaker 1: time to look at how that process has been politicized. 16 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 1: In the book Existential Politics, Jessica F. Green from the 17 00:00:58,520 --> 00:01:02,320 Speaker 1: University of Toronto argues that head on conflict with fossil 18 00:01:02,360 --> 00:01:07,520 Speaker 1: fuel interests is a prerequisite for real progress. Green is 19 00:01:07,560 --> 00:01:11,560 Speaker 1: a longtime observer of global climate negotiations and an expert 20 00:01:11,600 --> 00:01:14,880 Speaker 1: on a carbon accounting and she argues that the cop 21 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,000 Speaker 1: embodies a win win approach to the problem of the 22 00:01:18,000 --> 00:01:22,320 Speaker 1: climate crisis and the transitions necessary to deal with it, 23 00:01:22,400 --> 00:01:26,360 Speaker 1: for which someone has to lose. The challenging is to 24 00:01:26,360 --> 00:01:29,640 Speaker 1: make sure the right people do the winning well, the 25 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:33,720 Speaker 1: fossil asset owners, as Green describes them, do the losing. 26 00:01:34,080 --> 00:01:37,680 Speaker 1: Adam had a really interesting conversation with Green, who's someone 27 00:01:37,680 --> 00:01:40,679 Speaker 1: that I've also spoken with in the past about cop proceedings. 28 00:01:40,760 --> 00:01:43,880 Speaker 1: She's really, really, really interesting on this stuff. I think 29 00:01:43,880 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 1: you'll enjoy this chat. 30 00:01:45,600 --> 00:01:59,440 Speaker 3: It's coming up after this quick break. 31 00:02:08,120 --> 00:02:10,120 Speaker 4: One thing I was curious about as I was reading 32 00:02:10,120 --> 00:02:13,440 Speaker 4: the book is the what drove you to write this book? 33 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:18,120 Speaker 4: Because it's incredibly complex stuff. As we were discussing a 34 00:02:18,160 --> 00:02:22,320 Speaker 4: few minutes ago, it's not uplifting, So yeah, what was 35 00:02:22,360 --> 00:02:26,720 Speaker 4: the driving force behind writing this book? Existential politics? 36 00:02:27,160 --> 00:02:29,160 Speaker 2: There are a couple of motivations for the book. One, 37 00:02:29,320 --> 00:02:32,480 Speaker 2: I've been studying carbon accounting and the politics of carbon 38 00:02:32,480 --> 00:02:36,280 Speaker 2: accounting for like fifteen twenty years. My first book, Rethinking 39 00:02:36,320 --> 00:02:42,240 Speaker 2: Private Authority, looks a lot at the creation of private 40 00:02:42,360 --> 00:02:46,200 Speaker 2: standard setters, who you know, eventually became the voluntary carbon market, 41 00:02:46,840 --> 00:02:49,120 Speaker 2: and even then I was like, this is not going 42 00:02:49,200 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: to end well. So I, you know, I just have 43 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 2: a deep knowledge of this stuff and it is very technical, 44 00:02:57,360 --> 00:02:59,960 Speaker 2: and so therefore it sort of flies under the radar 45 00:03:00,040 --> 00:03:03,560 Speaker 2: are And so given that I've sort of seen the 46 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:06,960 Speaker 2: evolution of the voluntary carbon market, I studied the origins 47 00:03:06,960 --> 00:03:09,760 Speaker 2: of the Greenhouse Gas Protocol, which is now an ISO 48 00:03:09,840 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 2: standard for how all firms measure their greenhouse gas emissions. Like, 49 00:03:13,280 --> 00:03:15,240 Speaker 2: I just know a lot about where all of this 50 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:17,200 Speaker 2: came from, and it's important to understand where it came 51 00:03:17,240 --> 00:03:19,480 Speaker 2: from to understand how well it can or cannot work. 52 00:03:20,280 --> 00:03:23,359 Speaker 2: So that's one motivation, and the other is I wrote 53 00:03:23,800 --> 00:03:28,400 Speaker 2: a scholarly article with two colleagues, Tom Hale and Jeff 54 00:03:28,440 --> 00:03:34,440 Speaker 2: Colgan called Asset Revaluation and Existential Politics, and that was 55 00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:37,560 Speaker 2: part of my thinking about this topic. And it was 56 00:03:37,600 --> 00:03:42,160 Speaker 2: born out of the frustration that so many people say, oh, 57 00:03:42,360 --> 00:03:44,720 Speaker 2: this is a collective action problem and we all have 58 00:03:44,840 --> 00:03:48,960 Speaker 2: to cooperate to reduce emissions. And you know, what I 59 00:03:49,120 --> 00:03:52,200 Speaker 2: saw as a student of climate politics over many, many 60 00:03:52,280 --> 00:03:54,760 Speaker 2: years is that this is really a distributional problem. This 61 00:03:54,880 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 2: is about you know, who gets what when and how, 62 00:03:58,200 --> 00:04:00,200 Speaker 2: and so the idea of like, oh, if we all 63 00:04:00,200 --> 00:04:03,560 Speaker 2: just cooperate was just it seemed to me just the 64 00:04:03,600 --> 00:04:06,040 Speaker 2: wrong looking at the wrong problem, and so those were 65 00:04:06,280 --> 00:04:09,320 Speaker 2: the two real motivations for thinking about Okay, well, you know, 66 00:04:10,080 --> 00:04:11,760 Speaker 2: like we need to wake up to the fact that 67 00:04:11,800 --> 00:04:15,080 Speaker 2: we're just largely thinking about this the wrong way. 68 00:04:16,440 --> 00:04:20,200 Speaker 4: Yeah, we'll come back to the obsession, you might say, 69 00:04:20,240 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 4: with cooperation among the elite standard setters and other organizations 70 00:04:25,560 --> 00:04:28,680 Speaker 4: who have been leading the global charge on a lot 71 00:04:28,720 --> 00:04:30,360 Speaker 4: of the stuff you write about in the book. But 72 00:04:30,400 --> 00:04:32,400 Speaker 4: before we get there, I wanted to ask if you 73 00:04:32,440 --> 00:04:36,440 Speaker 4: could define what existential politics are and then talk about 74 00:04:36,440 --> 00:04:39,960 Speaker 4: how they differ from regular politics if they do it all. 75 00:04:41,040 --> 00:04:41,280 Speaker 1: Yeah. 76 00:04:41,279 --> 00:04:46,360 Speaker 2: So I define existential politics in the book as Okay, 77 00:04:46,400 --> 00:04:50,040 Speaker 2: so I define existential politics as a political contest between 78 00:04:50,080 --> 00:04:53,719 Speaker 2: different kinds of asset owners. And I offer this sort 79 00:04:53,760 --> 00:04:57,480 Speaker 2: of very simple model of three kinds of asset owners 80 00:04:57,839 --> 00:05:03,080 Speaker 2: fossil asset ownersulnerable asset owners, and green asset owners. And 81 00:05:04,080 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 2: fossil asset owners are obviously like fossil fuel companies, mining companies, 82 00:05:08,560 --> 00:05:11,159 Speaker 2: heavy industry, all of the kind of foundations, the high 83 00:05:11,240 --> 00:05:15,200 Speaker 2: emitting industries that are the foundations of our economy. Green 84 00:05:15,240 --> 00:05:17,680 Speaker 2: asset owners are precisely what you would think they would be, 85 00:05:17,760 --> 00:05:21,440 Speaker 2: you know, the basically the engines of the decarbonized economy, 86 00:05:21,560 --> 00:05:28,400 Speaker 2: so producers of evs, solar PV cells, wind turbines, all 87 00:05:28,480 --> 00:05:31,599 Speaker 2: the infrastructure we need to run those. And then there 88 00:05:31,760 --> 00:05:37,279 Speaker 2: are vulnerable asseid owners, and vulnerable asset owners are those 89 00:05:37,360 --> 00:05:41,440 Speaker 2: whose assets will be destroyed by the effects of climate change. 90 00:05:42,240 --> 00:05:45,200 Speaker 2: And so the idea, the basic idea of the book 91 00:05:45,240 --> 00:05:49,440 Speaker 2: is that we have this profound asymmetry that fossil acid 92 00:05:49,480 --> 00:05:53,039 Speaker 2: owners are running the show. They have been for decades, 93 00:05:53,600 --> 00:05:56,360 Speaker 2: and saying that we're all in this together if we 94 00:05:56,520 --> 00:05:59,679 Speaker 2: just cooperate, is ignoring the elephant in the room, which 95 00:05:59,720 --> 00:06:04,560 Speaker 2: is these very powerful interests that have a vested interest 96 00:06:04,640 --> 00:06:08,880 Speaker 2: in maintaining the value of their assets. And the reason 97 00:06:08,880 --> 00:06:11,839 Speaker 2: that I say that it's existential is so we describe it, 98 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:15,480 Speaker 2: as in the first article as distributional politics on steroids. 99 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:19,680 Speaker 2: So it's not just about who gets what, but whose 100 00:06:19,960 --> 00:06:25,400 Speaker 2: assets become completely worthless, whose houses disappear, whose livelihoods disappear, 101 00:06:25,440 --> 00:06:29,960 Speaker 2: which countries disappear as a result of both climate policies 102 00:06:30,160 --> 00:06:33,920 Speaker 2: and the effects of climate change. So it's really about 103 00:06:33,960 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 2: the existence of many, many things, and unless we grapple 104 00:06:37,839 --> 00:06:42,560 Speaker 2: with the visceral reactions, so that that is going to 105 00:06:42,600 --> 00:06:45,960 Speaker 2: provoke in people, then we're not going to make much progress. 106 00:06:46,000 --> 00:06:48,680 Speaker 4: The title of the first chapter, which is very direct, 107 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:51,520 Speaker 4: we are not all in this together. And I think 108 00:06:51,520 --> 00:06:54,760 Speaker 4: that gets at the heart of what you're saying there, 109 00:06:54,800 --> 00:06:57,720 Speaker 4: which is that this is ultimately a question of power, 110 00:06:58,240 --> 00:07:01,760 Speaker 4: and the power asymmetries, as you mentioned between right now, 111 00:07:01,800 --> 00:07:04,880 Speaker 4: tilted very heavily in favor of the fossil asset owners 112 00:07:04,880 --> 00:07:08,839 Speaker 4: and against the vulnerable and the green asset owners. There 113 00:07:08,880 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 4: is this idea, and we're going to get into this 114 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:12,920 Speaker 4: a little bit more, that there is a way that 115 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:16,440 Speaker 4: tackling the climate crisis can be a win win, that 116 00:07:16,800 --> 00:07:19,680 Speaker 4: everyone can come out ahead if we just do this together. 117 00:07:20,320 --> 00:07:22,080 Speaker 4: And I think the thing that we are not all 118 00:07:22,120 --> 00:07:24,840 Speaker 4: in this together that message gets at is the fact 119 00:07:24,840 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 4: that no in order to tackle this crisis, someone has 120 00:07:28,600 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 4: to lose, and that someone is not just the fossil 121 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,280 Speaker 4: fuel industry, but everyone invested in the fossil asset class 122 00:07:35,360 --> 00:07:37,240 Speaker 4: and the status quo. So can you talk about that 123 00:07:37,280 --> 00:07:39,800 Speaker 4: a little bit, The fact that as much as we 124 00:07:39,920 --> 00:07:42,240 Speaker 4: might like to think, and it makes us feel better 125 00:07:42,240 --> 00:07:44,880 Speaker 4: to think that there is a comfortable world in which 126 00:07:44,880 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 4: everybody wins, that's not the case. We've tried that and 127 00:07:48,560 --> 00:07:49,280 Speaker 4: it's not working. 128 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:53,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. I mean, I think again, as long time observer 129 00:07:53,440 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 2: of climate politics, the UNF Triple C, the Framework Convention 130 00:07:57,520 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 2: on Climate Change, and then subsequently the Kyoto Protocol and 131 00:08:01,360 --> 00:08:05,200 Speaker 2: now the Paris Agreement. The UNF Triple C started, you know, assigned. 132 00:08:05,240 --> 00:08:07,480 Speaker 2: The Framework Convention was signed in nineteen ninety two. It 133 00:08:07,520 --> 00:08:10,920 Speaker 2: was the heyday of the liberal international order. We were 134 00:08:10,920 --> 00:08:16,160 Speaker 2: writing environmental treaties left and right. You know, humanitarian intervention 135 00:08:16,400 --> 00:08:18,640 Speaker 2: was a thing that we did for better or for worse. 136 00:08:19,080 --> 00:08:22,480 Speaker 2: The WTO was expanding and there was a lot of 137 00:08:22,560 --> 00:08:27,880 Speaker 2: international cooperation and that's when we started, you know, as 138 00:08:27,920 --> 00:08:32,679 Speaker 2: a global community working on climate and so I think 139 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:34,960 Speaker 2: it began in this moment where it's like we can 140 00:08:35,040 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 2: all cooperate. You know, look, we're doing it in all 141 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:41,440 Speaker 2: these ways, and it you know, ignored the fact that 142 00:08:41,880 --> 00:08:44,840 Speaker 2: as early as the nineteen nineties, when the before the 143 00:08:44,840 --> 00:08:47,760 Speaker 2: Framework Convention was even inked, you know, the fossil fuel 144 00:08:47,760 --> 00:08:53,840 Speaker 2: industry was already generating disinformation around the science of climate change. 145 00:08:53,840 --> 00:08:57,200 Speaker 2: And that's been well documented. So you know, there's the 146 00:08:57,360 --> 00:09:01,040 Speaker 2: argument here is that you cannot collaborate with obstructionists and 147 00:09:01,080 --> 00:09:06,800 Speaker 2: there is this very long tradition of obstructionism, and so 148 00:09:07,040 --> 00:09:11,160 Speaker 2: until we realize that we're just sort of fiddling at. 149 00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:14,760 Speaker 4: The margins, it seems like it describes sort of the 150 00:09:14,880 --> 00:09:19,520 Speaker 4: status quo approach of some of these elite global institutions 151 00:09:19,520 --> 00:09:21,480 Speaker 4: in some ways, fiddling at the margins in a way 152 00:09:21,520 --> 00:09:24,680 Speaker 4: that doesn't try to tackle the fundamental political dynamics. 153 00:09:25,480 --> 00:09:27,240 Speaker 2: Look, I think it's worth saying that the world has 154 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,040 Speaker 2: changed a lot, like right, and the climate crisis has 155 00:09:30,120 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 2: changed a lot. So like in nineteen ninety two, you know, 156 00:09:33,240 --> 00:09:35,120 Speaker 2: I don't know the exact number, but it's one hundred 157 00:09:35,160 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 2: somewhere between one hundred and eighty and one hundred and 158 00:09:36,920 --> 00:09:40,880 Speaker 2: ninety countries quickly signed the Framework Convention, which is, you know, 159 00:09:41,800 --> 00:09:46,880 Speaker 2: it's not very highly It doesn't require a huge amount 160 00:09:47,000 --> 00:09:50,000 Speaker 2: from countries other than sort of starting to take stock 161 00:09:50,040 --> 00:09:52,840 Speaker 2: of what their emissions are and you know, cooperating on 162 00:09:52,880 --> 00:09:56,240 Speaker 2: science and these these kinds of things. But you know, 163 00:09:56,280 --> 00:09:59,880 Speaker 2: it seemed like there was some consensus. And also the 164 00:10:00,000 --> 00:10:03,079 Speaker 2: climate crisis was far away, so it was sort of like, okay, well, 165 00:10:03,960 --> 00:10:07,760 Speaker 2: probably you know, arguably some of the politics weren't existential. 166 00:10:07,760 --> 00:10:11,640 Speaker 2: Then there could be you know, winners and losers, but 167 00:10:11,679 --> 00:10:14,560 Speaker 2: the losers maybe wouldn't lose as much or as quickly. 168 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: But now that we've just repeatedly kicked the can down 169 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,200 Speaker 2: the road, we're in a sort of do or diet moment, 170 00:10:21,280 --> 00:10:26,320 Speaker 2: and those costs become much more precipitous, those changes become 171 00:10:26,320 --> 00:10:29,720 Speaker 2: more precipitous, the costs becomes steeper, and therefore the politics 172 00:10:29,720 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 2: more conflictual. 173 00:10:31,679 --> 00:10:33,439 Speaker 4: In one of the ways we've kicked the can down 174 00:10:33,480 --> 00:10:36,880 Speaker 4: the road is what you describe as measuring tons. Can 175 00:10:36,880 --> 00:10:41,000 Speaker 4: you give an overview of types of quote unquote solutions 176 00:10:41,360 --> 00:10:42,839 Speaker 4: that it encompasses. 177 00:10:44,000 --> 00:10:47,679 Speaker 2: So yeah, so I refer to it as actually managing tons. 178 00:10:47,760 --> 00:10:50,400 Speaker 2: And the idea is that we have this very narrow 179 00:10:50,480 --> 00:10:54,439 Speaker 2: construction of the climate problem as a technical problem of measuring, 180 00:10:54,600 --> 00:10:59,880 Speaker 2: managing or sorry, measuring, verifying, buying, and selling an account 181 00:11:00,160 --> 00:11:03,280 Speaker 2: for carbon emissions. So we're just it's just this focus, 182 00:11:03,679 --> 00:11:07,120 Speaker 2: this very narrow focus on measurement and buying and selling 183 00:11:08,000 --> 00:11:13,880 Speaker 2: and making claims about the level of emissions. And so 184 00:11:14,480 --> 00:11:17,600 Speaker 2: measuring emissions is actually, in many ways very difficult. Some 185 00:11:17,640 --> 00:11:20,880 Speaker 2: things are very straightforward, some are extremely difficult, Like we 186 00:11:20,920 --> 00:11:22,960 Speaker 2: know how much energy is embedded in a ton of 187 00:11:23,000 --> 00:11:26,560 Speaker 2: coal for you know, fossil fuels, so the direct combustion 188 00:11:26,640 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 2: of those we can measure. But when you get into 189 00:11:28,520 --> 00:11:33,400 Speaker 2: things like avoided emissions, how many emissions would there have 190 00:11:33,559 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 2: been if you know, the German government had not invested 191 00:11:37,640 --> 00:11:41,000 Speaker 2: in a cook stove project in Malawi. You know, that's 192 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:45,400 Speaker 2: a very difficult set of calculations to make, which rely 193 00:11:45,840 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 2: on a hypothetical baseline like this is what the world 194 00:11:49,040 --> 00:11:51,679 Speaker 2: would have looked like if we hadn't done this. And 195 00:11:51,720 --> 00:11:56,240 Speaker 2: then we take that hypothetical and we commodify it and 196 00:11:56,280 --> 00:11:59,000 Speaker 2: we sell it and we say this is the you know, 197 00:11:59,040 --> 00:12:02,240 Speaker 2: this buy this absence of emissions, which you know, if 198 00:12:02,280 --> 00:12:05,880 Speaker 2: somebody came to your door and said, by this absence 199 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,800 Speaker 2: of a I don't know a set of encyclopedias, you 200 00:12:09,840 --> 00:12:10,640 Speaker 2: wouldn't do it. 201 00:12:12,800 --> 00:12:16,040 Speaker 4: No matter how much I opposed encyclopedias. I would not 202 00:12:16,120 --> 00:12:18,520 Speaker 4: think that it was anti encyclopedia. 203 00:12:18,960 --> 00:12:22,640 Speaker 2: You know. So we're commodifying things that are very difficult 204 00:12:22,640 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 2: to measure, and then we are making them the foundation 205 00:12:26,720 --> 00:12:30,600 Speaker 2: of our climate policy. And you know it's I think 206 00:12:30,720 --> 00:12:33,520 Speaker 2: in many ways the book does not make very novel arguments, 207 00:12:33,520 --> 00:12:35,480 Speaker 2: in the sense that, of course climate change is a 208 00:12:35,480 --> 00:12:39,040 Speaker 2: political problem about winners and losers. But I think the 209 00:12:39,080 --> 00:12:41,520 Speaker 2: contribution is to say, as long as we are thinking 210 00:12:41,559 --> 00:12:44,880 Speaker 2: about it in this technocratic way, which is pervasive in 211 00:12:44,880 --> 00:12:48,640 Speaker 2: climate policy, then we're not going to make real progress. 212 00:12:49,240 --> 00:12:52,320 Speaker 4: I actually think the way that you articulate the pervasiveness 213 00:12:52,320 --> 00:12:55,280 Speaker 4: of it is pretty novel. The reason I say that 214 00:12:55,400 --> 00:12:58,120 Speaker 4: is because, yes, the root of the problem is the 215 00:12:58,120 --> 00:13:02,120 Speaker 4: fossil acid owners, and they're decades of obstructionism, But there 216 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:09,360 Speaker 4: is also this consensus, this entire cottage industry of corporations, NGOs, 217 00:13:09,840 --> 00:13:12,720 Speaker 4: organizations that exist sort of in the space between those 218 00:13:12,720 --> 00:13:16,960 Speaker 4: two that are deeply, deeply invested in managing tons and 219 00:13:17,040 --> 00:13:21,080 Speaker 4: all of the verification and in validation and certification that 220 00:13:21,720 --> 00:13:26,280 Speaker 4: this really complicated technocratic approach demands and has created. Can 221 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,760 Speaker 4: you just talk about that industry a little bit, because 222 00:13:29,760 --> 00:13:33,200 Speaker 4: I think it's really hard for people who have not 223 00:13:33,400 --> 00:13:38,760 Speaker 4: experienced it to appreciate just how broad it is, how 224 00:13:39,120 --> 00:13:43,160 Speaker 4: connected it is with positions of power, governments and corporations 225 00:13:43,200 --> 00:13:45,720 Speaker 4: and corporate trade groups and things like that, and also 226 00:13:45,720 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 4: how much they just have invested in continuing the inertia 227 00:13:48,600 --> 00:13:49,560 Speaker 4: of managing tons. 228 00:13:50,360 --> 00:13:52,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'll talk about this in the context of 229 00:13:53,280 --> 00:13:56,800 Speaker 2: carbon offsets, and then I can talk about sort of 230 00:13:56,800 --> 00:14:01,199 Speaker 2: corporate corporate night zero as well. But carbon offset project 231 00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:05,800 Speaker 2: so very basic overview carbon offset project is party A 232 00:14:06,400 --> 00:14:10,240 Speaker 2: pays Party B to do a carbon reducing thing, and 233 00:14:10,360 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 2: Party B gets the money and Party A gets the 234 00:14:13,200 --> 00:14:17,000 Speaker 2: emissions reductions. But it doesn't just involve Party A and 235 00:14:17,040 --> 00:14:20,880 Speaker 2: Party B. Someone's got to design the project. Someone has 236 00:14:21,000 --> 00:14:25,240 Speaker 2: to make sure that the project conforms to whatever methodologies 237 00:14:25,280 --> 00:14:30,840 Speaker 2: are required. Then the project has to be validated, generally 238 00:14:30,960 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 2: by a third party that says, yeah, this looks good, 239 00:14:34,320 --> 00:14:38,680 Speaker 2: the methodology is sound, this is going to reduce approximately 240 00:14:38,840 --> 00:14:42,520 Speaker 2: as much as you know. The document estimates and the 241 00:14:42,560 --> 00:14:46,840 Speaker 2: calculations estimate, and we sign off on this. Then the 242 00:14:46,840 --> 00:14:49,720 Speaker 2: project is funded and that may involve a bunch of funders, 243 00:14:49,840 --> 00:14:54,440 Speaker 2: and then the credits are then generated and sold through 244 00:14:55,440 --> 00:15:00,400 Speaker 2: usually through a registry or a platform like other comodities 245 00:15:00,440 --> 00:15:04,200 Speaker 2: are sold, and there are some that work on platforms 246 00:15:04,200 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 2: where other commodities are sold. And then at the end 247 00:15:07,120 --> 00:15:10,320 Speaker 2: of the project there's someone who are a third party, 248 00:15:10,360 --> 00:15:14,160 Speaker 2: a different third party that verifies yes, that verifies that 249 00:15:14,200 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 2: everything has happened right, so that the project actually took place. 250 00:15:17,680 --> 00:15:21,560 Speaker 2: That it generated the amount of reductions that it said 251 00:15:21,560 --> 00:15:24,400 Speaker 2: it would, so on and so forth. So there's this 252 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:30,040 Speaker 2: big supply chain basically of actors involved in generating a 253 00:15:30,080 --> 00:15:34,560 Speaker 2: carbon offset, buying and selling those credits. And what I 254 00:15:35,080 --> 00:15:36,600 Speaker 2: show in the book, what I argue in the book 255 00:15:36,640 --> 00:15:40,760 Speaker 2: is that everybody who's involved in that project has a 256 00:15:40,880 --> 00:15:44,160 Speaker 2: vested interest in the numbers adding up, and they want 257 00:15:44,200 --> 00:15:47,360 Speaker 2: the biggest numbers possible for the least amount of money 258 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:50,880 Speaker 2: so that they can put that on their ledger and say, 259 00:15:51,160 --> 00:15:53,920 Speaker 2: look how much we reduce because we pay for this project. 260 00:15:54,480 --> 00:15:58,640 Speaker 2: There's no constituency demanding high quality. Even though there have 261 00:15:58,640 --> 00:16:02,680 Speaker 2: been all of these efforts tom the offset market, particularly 262 00:16:02,720 --> 00:16:06,480 Speaker 2: the voluntary offset market, from a political perspective, it doesn't 263 00:16:06,520 --> 00:16:09,000 Speaker 2: seem that these will be successful because really nobody has 264 00:16:09,520 --> 00:16:13,280 Speaker 2: a vested interest in much deviation from the status quo, 265 00:16:13,440 --> 00:16:16,200 Speaker 2: and so the numbers all add up, but the reductions 266 00:16:16,200 --> 00:16:17,040 Speaker 2: aren't actually there. 267 00:16:17,280 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 4: Reductions and emissions, you mean, the. 268 00:16:19,000 --> 00:16:20,800 Speaker 2: Reductions and emissions are not actually there. 269 00:16:20,840 --> 00:16:24,440 Speaker 5: There was a recent study done by some folks in 270 00:16:24,440 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 5: California that reviewed twenty percent of all of the offsets 271 00:16:28,720 --> 00:16:34,360 Speaker 5: produced basically both in governmental programs and involuntary programs and 272 00:16:34,440 --> 00:16:38,280 Speaker 5: found that they represent actually sixteen percent of the. 273 00:16:38,280 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: Total amount of emissions reductions claimed, so that there's almost 274 00:16:43,400 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 2: an order like it's like shocking how little these are 275 00:16:47,520 --> 00:16:53,120 Speaker 2: actually reducing emissions or avoiding emissions. And you know, I 276 00:16:53,200 --> 00:16:56,600 Speaker 2: go through a lot of other problems with them besides 277 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 2: just this number problem. But offsets are not only very 278 00:17:01,880 --> 00:17:06,760 Speaker 2: problematic for this reason, but they are everywhere in climate policy. 279 00:17:06,960 --> 00:17:08,760 Speaker 2: So it's not just I mean some of us, like 280 00:17:09,400 --> 00:17:12,120 Speaker 2: it's sort of like common knowledge in I would say 281 00:17:12,119 --> 00:17:14,760 Speaker 2: in climate policy circles that offsets are kind of bullshit, 282 00:17:15,200 --> 00:17:19,160 Speaker 2: but we use them everywhere anyway, all the time. So 283 00:17:19,200 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 2: there's this real disjuncture between like what we know about 284 00:17:22,600 --> 00:17:24,439 Speaker 2: how these work and how we actually use them as 285 00:17:24,440 --> 00:17:25,400 Speaker 2: a policy instrument. 286 00:17:26,160 --> 00:17:28,560 Speaker 4: I feel like they're also one of the climate again 287 00:17:28,760 --> 00:17:32,080 Speaker 4: quote unquote solutions that has broken through in sort of 288 00:17:32,080 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 4: a mainstream way. Like if you go to book an 289 00:17:34,520 --> 00:17:37,680 Speaker 4: airline ticket, most airlines now will say you can pay 290 00:17:37,760 --> 00:17:41,520 Speaker 4: us extra money to offset your emissions, which is such 291 00:17:41,520 --> 00:17:44,320 Speaker 4: a multi tiered scam that I can't. It's just PSA 292 00:17:44,400 --> 00:17:47,360 Speaker 4: to everyone listening, don't pay your airline or any other 293 00:17:47,440 --> 00:17:50,800 Speaker 4: company to offset whatever you're doing just to make yourself 294 00:17:50,800 --> 00:17:53,119 Speaker 4: feel better. They're just pocketing that money and it's not 295 00:17:53,119 --> 00:17:54,360 Speaker 4: doing anything correct. 296 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:57,879 Speaker 2: Answer, absolutely, And it's also usually like four bucks, Like 297 00:17:58,240 --> 00:18:01,880 Speaker 2: how is four bucks set your flight across the country 298 00:18:01,960 --> 00:18:03,919 Speaker 2: or across the ocean? I don't know. 299 00:18:04,320 --> 00:18:08,199 Speaker 4: And they're pretty deeply entrenched in the Paris Agreement and 300 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:13,600 Speaker 4: other global climate negotiations and climate agreements, right, Yeah. 301 00:18:13,359 --> 00:18:18,399 Speaker 2: So offsets are there's an offset market created by the 302 00:18:18,440 --> 00:18:23,040 Speaker 2: Paris Agreement. It's called the Paris Agreement Crediting Mechanism. It's 303 00:18:23,119 --> 00:18:26,680 Speaker 2: the successor to the one in the Kyoto Protocol called 304 00:18:26,720 --> 00:18:29,640 Speaker 2: the Clean Development mechanism. So there's one there, a lot 305 00:18:29,680 --> 00:18:32,240 Speaker 2: of the credits, not all of them, but a lot 306 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,200 Speaker 2: of the credits from the Kyoto Protocol are being grandfathered in, 307 00:18:35,640 --> 00:18:37,360 Speaker 2: even though we know that there's a lot of problems 308 00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:41,719 Speaker 2: with quality of those credits. There's also this huge a 309 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:45,240 Speaker 2: reference for this huge voluntary market, right, which is basically 310 00:18:45,320 --> 00:18:48,200 Speaker 2: run by non state actors. I also call it the 311 00:18:48,320 --> 00:18:52,320 Speaker 2: unregulated market because a bunch of you know, NGOs and 312 00:18:52,400 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 2: private firms said, this is what constitutes a carbon offset 313 00:18:55,080 --> 00:18:59,600 Speaker 2: project in you know, afforestation or methane capture, or whatever right. 314 00:18:59,560 --> 00:19:02,760 Speaker 4: Or self regulation in their preferred euphemism. 315 00:19:02,600 --> 00:19:06,760 Speaker 2: Yes, it's self regulation. And they started selling those and 316 00:19:06,960 --> 00:19:10,359 Speaker 2: corporations started buying them, and then they started, you know, 317 00:19:10,480 --> 00:19:13,480 Speaker 2: those purveyors of offsets started lobbing for them to be 318 00:19:13,640 --> 00:19:18,320 Speaker 2: used as compliance instruments. So in twenty fifteen, countries got 319 00:19:18,320 --> 00:19:23,760 Speaker 2: together through ECAL, the International Civil Aviation Organization, and created 320 00:19:24,760 --> 00:19:28,159 Speaker 2: an emissions agreement to manage aviation emissions because that's not 321 00:19:28,200 --> 00:19:33,119 Speaker 2: covered in the Paris Agreement, and that relies principally on offsets, right, 322 00:19:33,160 --> 00:19:37,000 Speaker 2: because we don't have fossil fuel free means of air transport. 323 00:19:37,160 --> 00:19:39,639 Speaker 2: So you know, it's going to create a demand for 324 00:19:39,760 --> 00:19:42,800 Speaker 2: between one and two billion credits between now and like 325 00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:47,040 Speaker 2: twenty thirty five, and voluntary credits generated on the voluntary 326 00:19:47,080 --> 00:19:50,680 Speaker 2: market are now going to be accepted as compliance grade. 327 00:19:50,880 --> 00:19:54,160 Speaker 2: So we have this self regulated market and now these 328 00:19:54,160 --> 00:19:56,240 Speaker 2: are going to these these offsets are going to be 329 00:19:56,320 --> 00:20:01,840 Speaker 2: used in an international inter governmental agree. So that's the problem. 330 00:20:02,440 --> 00:20:05,400 Speaker 4: Can you talk a bit about why fossil asset owners, 331 00:20:05,640 --> 00:20:09,560 Speaker 4: fossil fuel industry very much included, love this approach so much, 332 00:20:09,720 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 4: Why it serves their interests so well? 333 00:20:12,359 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, because they can say that they're doing things. They say, look, 334 00:20:15,600 --> 00:20:18,119 Speaker 2: we bought all of these offsets at like five bucks 335 00:20:18,160 --> 00:20:23,359 Speaker 2: a ton, or like, look here's our here's our really 336 00:20:23,400 --> 00:20:26,720 Speaker 2: shiny annual report that measure reports all of our emissions. 337 00:20:26,720 --> 00:20:30,040 Speaker 2: And now we know that shareholders have all the information 338 00:20:30,119 --> 00:20:32,720 Speaker 2: they need to make responsible decisions about climate risk. And 339 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:35,280 Speaker 2: it's like, no, they don't. Nobody reads that, and even 340 00:20:35,280 --> 00:20:37,920 Speaker 2: if they did, they wouldn't understand it. It's I think 341 00:20:37,960 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 2: it provides a lot of political cover for the status 342 00:20:42,600 --> 00:20:47,639 Speaker 2: quo that these basically fossil asset owners can say that 343 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 2: they're doing something that doesn't really address the problem of 344 00:20:52,640 --> 00:20:56,280 Speaker 2: reducing the supply of fossil fuels. And indeed, if you 345 00:20:56,320 --> 00:20:59,320 Speaker 2: look at like carbon pricing, one of these so this 346 00:20:59,359 --> 00:21:02,920 Speaker 2: is the you know, the gnarling of economists and before 347 00:21:02,960 --> 00:21:07,480 Speaker 2: it became political poison of many governments as well. Carbon pricing, 348 00:21:07,520 --> 00:21:09,840 Speaker 2: if you look at the extent to which it is 349 00:21:10,040 --> 00:21:13,920 Speaker 2: driving reductions, it tends to be for things like efficiency 350 00:21:13,960 --> 00:21:18,920 Speaker 2: improvements or fuel switching. So these aren't really changes from 351 00:21:18,960 --> 00:21:22,240 Speaker 2: the perspective of a fossil acid owner. These aren't changes 352 00:21:22,320 --> 00:21:25,919 Speaker 2: that are fundamentally threatening their business model. Right, this is 353 00:21:25,960 --> 00:21:27,879 Speaker 2: just like Okay, we're doing some stuff on the margins 354 00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:31,000 Speaker 2: that's actually maybe that's good because it's cutting costs for 355 00:21:31,080 --> 00:21:35,360 Speaker 2: us a little bit, but it's not catalyzing real decision 356 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,920 Speaker 2: making about how we wind down the use of these 357 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:39,600 Speaker 2: fossil assets. 358 00:21:39,440 --> 00:21:42,920 Speaker 4: Which is one of the reasons the entrenched interests love 359 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:44,679 Speaker 4: it so much. And also the fact that, as you 360 00:21:44,680 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 4: point out in the book, Carbon Pricing, you know, carbon 361 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:50,800 Speaker 4: tax or cap and trade type of system is so 362 00:21:51,040 --> 00:21:54,840 Speaker 4: politically unpopular. And I wrote a story about an organization 363 00:21:54,920 --> 00:21:57,560 Speaker 4: called the Climate Leadership Council a few years ago which 364 00:21:57,640 --> 00:22:03,439 Speaker 4: was exon BP other trade groups. Fossil fuel companies backed 365 00:22:04,119 --> 00:22:08,120 Speaker 4: organization that was advocating for a carbon tax. And one 366 00:22:08,160 --> 00:22:09,800 Speaker 4: of the reasons they love it is because it's so 367 00:22:09,800 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 4: politically unpopular that they can say, therefore something, and because 368 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,159 Speaker 4: people hate it because it has all the costs upfront 369 00:22:16,160 --> 00:22:18,679 Speaker 4: and all the benefits down the road or diffuse you know, 370 00:22:18,720 --> 00:22:21,320 Speaker 4: throughout the world. It's never going to pass. It's never 371 00:22:21,359 --> 00:22:22,920 Speaker 4: going to go anywhere, so they don't have to worry 372 00:22:22,960 --> 00:22:26,520 Speaker 4: about the solution that they say therefore ever becoming law. 373 00:22:26,560 --> 00:22:30,719 Speaker 2: It's it's so insidious, or they will advocate for Airmission's 374 00:22:30,760 --> 00:22:33,439 Speaker 2: trading scheme and then lobby for free allowances, which is 375 00:22:33,480 --> 00:22:35,919 Speaker 2: basically like, okay, well, we're participating in this thing, but 376 00:22:35,960 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 2: we literally paid no costs because the government gave us 377 00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:41,919 Speaker 2: free a free right to pollute up to x amount, 378 00:22:42,280 --> 00:22:44,400 Speaker 2: you know, and once you start giving those away, it's 379 00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:49,000 Speaker 2: very hard, you know, to take them back. So yeah, 380 00:22:49,040 --> 00:22:51,840 Speaker 2: they're both pretty insidious because they look on the face 381 00:22:51,880 --> 00:22:54,840 Speaker 2: of them like something is happening, but in reality, very 382 00:22:54,840 --> 00:22:55,679 Speaker 2: little is happening. 383 00:22:56,200 --> 00:22:58,080 Speaker 4: And then the last one I wanted to make sure 384 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:00,280 Speaker 4: we touch on probably briefly, because it shared there's a 385 00:23:00,280 --> 00:23:01,960 Speaker 4: lot of the same flaws as what we've been talking 386 00:23:01,960 --> 00:23:06,320 Speaker 4: about is the obsession with net zero, which you describe 387 00:23:06,359 --> 00:23:10,520 Speaker 4: as an elaborate distraction. It's another thing that has obviously 388 00:23:10,560 --> 00:23:14,200 Speaker 4: broken through in sort of the mainstream discourse, the idea 389 00:23:14,240 --> 00:23:17,920 Speaker 4: of net zero. And you won't find a corporation or 390 00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:22,000 Speaker 4: a government that has not proclaimed except maybe America, that 391 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:24,639 Speaker 4: has not proclaimed it's commitment to net zero. By some 392 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:27,200 Speaker 4: far off distant point in the future. 393 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:31,920 Speaker 2: Right It's like, so, you know, maybe thirty or forty 394 00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:37,199 Speaker 2: years ago, the rhetoric shifted from environment from like development too, 395 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:40,160 Speaker 2: like sustainable development, it's sustainable development. Was this a great 396 00:23:40,160 --> 00:23:42,920 Speaker 2: thing because you can bele and developed at the same time, 397 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,280 Speaker 2: and you could sort of put whatever you want in 398 00:23:45,320 --> 00:23:48,399 Speaker 2: that conceptual basket. And I argued that net zero is 399 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:53,320 Speaker 2: the same because because the math is so difficult, particularly 400 00:23:53,400 --> 00:23:56,080 Speaker 2: for firms, like for governments, it's a different issue. So 401 00:23:56,080 --> 00:23:58,760 Speaker 2: I want to bracket that for a moment. But if 402 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:02,280 Speaker 2: you claim to be net zero as a company, right, 403 00:24:02,400 --> 00:24:04,480 Speaker 2: you have to measure what are called your scope one, 404 00:24:04,560 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 2: your scope to, and your scope three emissions. Most people, 405 00:24:08,200 --> 00:24:10,760 Speaker 2: I'm assuming a lot of your listeners have heard of those, 406 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:15,080 Speaker 2: the direct and indirect emissions. So Scope one are your 407 00:24:15,119 --> 00:24:20,240 Speaker 2: direct emissions, either through you know, production or generated through 408 00:24:20,240 --> 00:24:25,760 Speaker 2: purchased electricity. And then scope too are some of the 409 00:24:25,880 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 2: closely monitorable indirect emissions, like the commuting of employees. And 410 00:24:32,400 --> 00:24:35,840 Speaker 2: then Scope three is sort of everything else. So it's 411 00:24:36,600 --> 00:24:40,639 Speaker 2: everything all along the supply chain. So if your Walmart, 412 00:24:40,800 --> 00:24:44,239 Speaker 2: your direct emissions are you know, the electricity used to 413 00:24:44,400 --> 00:24:48,760 Speaker 2: keep the lights on, but you know the electricity or 414 00:24:49,960 --> 00:24:55,520 Speaker 2: the emissions from electricity for your suppliers, or the carbon 415 00:24:55,560 --> 00:24:59,399 Speaker 2: emitted through moving things along the supply chain? Are your 416 00:24:59,440 --> 00:25:03,480 Speaker 2: scope three missions and so measuring scope three emissions is, 417 00:25:03,520 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 2: particularly if you have one hundred thousand suppliers like Walmart does, 418 00:25:07,119 --> 00:25:10,240 Speaker 2: is impossible, right, because you can't get all that data. 419 00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,240 Speaker 2: You can ask your suppliers to you know, to give 420 00:25:13,280 --> 00:25:16,280 Speaker 2: it to you, but it'll be incomplete, it'll be self reported, 421 00:25:16,880 --> 00:25:19,600 Speaker 2: all of these kinds of things, and so what we 422 00:25:19,640 --> 00:25:23,040 Speaker 2: get is a very partial picture of what the company's 423 00:25:23,080 --> 00:25:26,000 Speaker 2: scope three emissions are, which is, you know, not entirely 424 00:25:26,040 --> 00:25:28,720 Speaker 2: their fault because how you get all of that information, 425 00:25:28,960 --> 00:25:33,240 Speaker 2: but it's extremely misleading about what their emissions actually are. 426 00:25:33,560 --> 00:25:35,320 Speaker 2: And one of the points I make in the book 427 00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 2: is everyone's scope three emissions are somebody else's scope one emissions. 428 00:25:41,000 --> 00:25:46,600 Speaker 2: So if you measured everyone's direct emissions through say regulation, 429 00:25:48,040 --> 00:25:52,080 Speaker 2: then you wouldn't have to have this kind of rigmarole 430 00:25:52,119 --> 00:25:54,960 Speaker 2: where people are. You know, there's again a huge cottage 431 00:25:54,960 --> 00:25:59,160 Speaker 2: industry of ESG officers and you know, carbon accounting firms 432 00:25:59,200 --> 00:26:03,840 Speaker 2: and all these kinds of things of helping these companies implement, 433 00:26:04,080 --> 00:26:07,160 Speaker 2: you know, measure their their emissions. And I just argue 434 00:26:07,160 --> 00:26:10,480 Speaker 2: that that is really not it's not getting it the 435 00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,359 Speaker 2: fundamental question of asset ownership, right, it's just sort of 436 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:16,720 Speaker 2: window dressing in many cases. 437 00:26:17,280 --> 00:26:19,399 Speaker 4: For people again who have not maybe been in this 438 00:26:19,440 --> 00:26:25,479 Speaker 4: world directly, it's hard to overstate how lucrative the you know, 439 00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:30,919 Speaker 4: measuring net zero, measuring scope one, two and especially three emissions. 440 00:26:31,320 --> 00:26:35,439 Speaker 4: That entire industry of measuring and reporting for consulting firms, 441 00:26:35,480 --> 00:26:40,240 Speaker 4: accounting firms, ngeos, smaller companies is you know, the more complex, 442 00:26:40,320 --> 00:26:42,560 Speaker 4: the better from their perspective. In a lot of ways, 443 00:26:42,560 --> 00:26:45,720 Speaker 4: it's an entire sub industry that only grows as this 444 00:26:45,760 --> 00:26:46,840 Speaker 4: gets more complicated. 445 00:26:47,760 --> 00:26:49,640 Speaker 2: And I should say there is you know, there has 446 00:26:49,720 --> 00:26:51,680 Speaker 2: been a little bit of progress, like there's a number 447 00:26:51,720 --> 00:26:54,919 Speaker 2: of countries that now have sort of anti greenwashing laws 448 00:26:54,920 --> 00:26:57,879 Speaker 2: on the books that kind of help control some of 449 00:26:57,880 --> 00:27:01,040 Speaker 2: the claims that companies can make. But it's you know, 450 00:27:01,160 --> 00:27:04,159 Speaker 2: it's it's not really enough, and it's not really the 451 00:27:04,240 --> 00:27:05,000 Speaker 2: key issue. 452 00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:08,040 Speaker 4: Something I thought was really interesting was an example you 453 00:27:08,080 --> 00:27:12,600 Speaker 4: gave on that front about I think legislation in Canada 454 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 4: that led to some very dramatic change in public performance 455 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:21,600 Speaker 4: of the oil Sands Pathways Alliance. Can you just talk 456 00:27:21,640 --> 00:27:23,639 Speaker 4: about that real quick, just as an example of how 457 00:27:24,359 --> 00:27:28,520 Speaker 4: what regulation can do in terms of prompting actual change 458 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:30,720 Speaker 4: in actual action from this industry group. 459 00:27:31,560 --> 00:27:33,800 Speaker 2: In I'm not I'm not, it's it's been in the 460 00:27:33,880 --> 00:27:37,639 Speaker 2: last couple of years, Canada hassed to bill that basically 461 00:27:38,280 --> 00:27:44,639 Speaker 2: said control what kinds of claims firms can make about 462 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:49,040 Speaker 2: their net zero work. And the Pathways Alliance is a 463 00:27:49,080 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 2: group of basically companies that do oil extraction in the 464 00:27:55,000 --> 00:27:58,920 Speaker 2: Tarsans and they are planning to be net zero, which 465 00:27:59,080 --> 00:28:01,640 Speaker 2: if you think about it's a bit of an oxymoron, 466 00:28:01,760 --> 00:28:04,360 Speaker 2: like it's some of the dirtiest oil in the world. 467 00:28:04,960 --> 00:28:08,200 Speaker 2: How on earth do we get from that to net zero? 468 00:28:08,440 --> 00:28:14,200 Speaker 2: And so this bill was passed and basically the Pathways 469 00:28:14,200 --> 00:28:18,000 Speaker 2: Alliance scrubbed their website overnight and just you know, had 470 00:28:18,040 --> 00:28:20,879 Speaker 2: some nice pictures and took down all of the all 471 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 2: of the words and all of the language because it 472 00:28:23,040 --> 00:28:26,320 Speaker 2: didn't comply with or I mean, there was some criticism 473 00:28:26,359 --> 00:28:28,040 Speaker 2: of the law. I can't remember what number it is. 474 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,760 Speaker 2: There was some criticism that it was, you know, not 475 00:28:31,800 --> 00:28:35,320 Speaker 2: sufficiently specific, and so that left the Pathways Alliance and 476 00:28:35,359 --> 00:28:41,760 Speaker 2: other companies potentially open to litigation because of you know, 477 00:28:41,840 --> 00:28:44,640 Speaker 2: how the law was being interpreted. But nonetheless it led 478 00:28:44,680 --> 00:28:48,760 Speaker 2: to an about face by by the Pathways alliance, which yeah, 479 00:28:48,760 --> 00:28:50,960 Speaker 2: I think speaks to your point of like, actually, yes, 480 00:28:51,000 --> 00:28:55,080 Speaker 2: we can have regulations to you know that that will 481 00:28:55,160 --> 00:28:58,120 Speaker 2: change behavior rather quickly and rather dramatically if there's the 482 00:28:58,120 --> 00:28:59,400 Speaker 2: public will to do it. 483 00:29:00,200 --> 00:29:03,760 Speaker 4: So as the Conference of the Parties, the un COP 484 00:29:03,800 --> 00:29:08,120 Speaker 4: thirty conference, approaches, there's certainly, as we were talking about 485 00:29:08,120 --> 00:29:10,920 Speaker 4: before we started recording, there's certainly going to be an 486 00:29:11,000 --> 00:29:14,160 Speaker 4: enormous amount of media coverage and fanfare and feel good 487 00:29:14,200 --> 00:29:18,360 Speaker 4: pledges and things like that that emerge from the forthcoming conference. 488 00:29:18,800 --> 00:29:21,360 Speaker 4: I wanted to read two sentences that you write in 489 00:29:21,400 --> 00:29:25,000 Speaker 4: the book because I think they're important to keep in 490 00:29:25,040 --> 00:29:29,280 Speaker 4: mind as we head into the conference. The first thing 491 00:29:29,320 --> 00:29:31,720 Speaker 4: you write is that at this point, the Paris Agreement 492 00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 4: is teetering on the brink of complete irrelevance, and the 493 00:29:35,880 --> 00:29:39,800 Speaker 4: COP appears to be collapsing under its own weight. Can 494 00:29:39,840 --> 00:29:42,720 Speaker 4: you just unpack those two arguments a little bit. 495 00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 2: On the irrelevance question, Look, it gives me no joy 496 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:50,920 Speaker 2: to say any of this. I don't want this to happen, 497 00:29:51,000 --> 00:29:53,000 Speaker 2: but it is happening, and so I think we need 498 00:29:53,040 --> 00:29:56,440 Speaker 2: to reckon with that. So there's a few reasons. I mean, 499 00:29:56,480 --> 00:29:59,840 Speaker 2: what is the Obviously, what political scientists would call output legitimacy, 500 00:30:00,080 --> 00:30:03,200 Speaker 2: like institution is viewed as legitimate if it does what 501 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:05,760 Speaker 2: it says it's going to do, and it's not doing that, 502 00:30:05,800 --> 00:30:08,280 Speaker 2: it's failing by its own measure. Right, The target in 503 00:30:08,360 --> 00:30:10,480 Speaker 2: Paris is to limit warming to one point five degrees 504 00:30:10,560 --> 00:30:13,200 Speaker 2: c and there's already substantial evidence to suggest that we're 505 00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 2: above that. We're at one point six as the global average. 506 00:30:16,640 --> 00:30:19,000 Speaker 2: So that's number one. It's not doing what it says 507 00:30:19,040 --> 00:30:21,200 Speaker 2: it's going to do. It hasn't succeeded at bending the 508 00:30:21,240 --> 00:30:25,560 Speaker 2: curve on emissions. Number two is like what the sort 509 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: of coverage that happens every year and has for the 510 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:31,640 Speaker 2: last few years about you know, the growing influence of 511 00:30:31,680 --> 00:30:35,680 Speaker 2: both petro states and the fossil fuel industry. So you know, 512 00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:42,760 Speaker 2: the last two cops were in Azerbaijohn and the UAE, 513 00:30:42,880 --> 00:30:45,680 Speaker 2: and those are obviously big petro states, So there was 514 00:30:45,720 --> 00:30:48,520 Speaker 2: a lot of criticism about you know, how how could 515 00:30:48,560 --> 00:30:53,040 Speaker 2: you possibly have a cop in those countries, and I mean, 516 00:30:53,080 --> 00:30:56,600 Speaker 2: I'm of two minds about that. Obviously, there's some conflicts 517 00:30:56,640 --> 00:30:59,560 Speaker 2: of interest, and in particular in the UAE, there was 518 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,320 Speaker 2: some suggestion that the president who of the of the COP, 519 00:31:04,000 --> 00:31:07,280 Speaker 2: who was also in a leadership position in the in 520 00:31:07,360 --> 00:31:10,600 Speaker 2: the state owned oil company ADNOC, was kind of tilting 521 00:31:10,640 --> 00:31:16,160 Speaker 2: things away from consensus on the phase out of fossil fuels. 522 00:31:17,400 --> 00:31:19,760 Speaker 6: So yes, there's a conflict of interest, but this is 523 00:31:19,800 --> 00:31:21,440 Speaker 6: also a multilateral institution. 524 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:24,640 Speaker 2: You can't start introducing a litmus test for who gets 525 00:31:24,680 --> 00:31:26,560 Speaker 2: to host and who gets to chair. I mean it 526 00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:29,200 Speaker 2: looks like Australia's going to be chairing next year. Also 527 00:31:29,480 --> 00:31:34,200 Speaker 2: a huge emitter, and arguably you you know, those countries 528 00:31:34,240 --> 00:31:36,920 Speaker 2: really have to wrestle with what they're going to do next. 529 00:31:37,680 --> 00:31:42,480 Speaker 2: So it's a complicated issue. But that's another reason that 530 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 2: the COP and the UNF Triple C is really struggling 531 00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:49,560 Speaker 2: with legitimacy. And I would say the third is just 532 00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 2: the growing presence of the fossil fuel industry. I don't 533 00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 2: go to the COPS anymore because it's just an absolute circus. 534 00:31:57,360 --> 00:31:59,760 Speaker 2: But you know, everybody that I know who goes, you know, 535 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,920 Speaker 2: says that there's tons and tons of representatives from the 536 00:32:03,920 --> 00:32:06,720 Speaker 2: fossil field industry. They hold side events, they have you know, 537 00:32:06,720 --> 00:32:11,360 Speaker 2: a big physical presence there. So again, if this is 538 00:32:11,400 --> 00:32:15,000 Speaker 2: the thing that we're purportedly trying to regulate and phase out, 539 00:32:15,080 --> 00:32:17,560 Speaker 2: and yet you know we have you know, obviously the 540 00:32:17,600 --> 00:32:20,680 Speaker 2: optimistic view would be, oh, well, you need those people 541 00:32:20,680 --> 00:32:25,160 Speaker 2: at the table, but even the former Executive Secretary of 542 00:32:25,200 --> 00:32:29,200 Speaker 2: the UNF Triple C, Christiana Figiettiz, said we can't have 543 00:32:29,280 --> 00:32:33,120 Speaker 2: those people at the table anymore because they are obstructing progress. Right, 544 00:32:33,200 --> 00:32:36,680 Speaker 2: So you know, there's there's a lot that's not going 545 00:32:36,800 --> 00:32:39,920 Speaker 2: well in the un of Triple C. It's hard, I mean, 546 00:32:39,920 --> 00:32:42,040 Speaker 2: it's hard to know what to do, right because this 547 00:32:42,200 --> 00:32:45,760 Speaker 2: is the place where all countries get represented and that 548 00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,320 Speaker 2: counts for something, particularly in a world where like global 549 00:32:50,320 --> 00:32:54,160 Speaker 2: cooperation is sinking by the second. But you know, on 550 00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:56,560 Speaker 2: the flip side, it's not producing any results. And so 551 00:32:57,360 --> 00:33:02,000 Speaker 2: you know, we have more meetings, more more subsidiary bodies, 552 00:33:02,080 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 2: more financial mechanisms. This year there's going to be a 553 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:12,200 Speaker 2: push for address transition mechanism. Last year it was loss 554 00:33:12,240 --> 00:33:15,240 Speaker 2: in damage. So there's just kind of more and more 555 00:33:15,320 --> 00:33:19,680 Speaker 2: on the agenda without actually completing the tasks that have 556 00:33:20,280 --> 00:33:21,760 Speaker 2: come before them. 557 00:33:22,360 --> 00:33:24,120 Speaker 4: All right, and I will add not just the fossil 558 00:33:24,120 --> 00:33:27,040 Speaker 4: fuel companies themselves, but all of their enablers as well, 559 00:33:27,120 --> 00:33:30,400 Speaker 4: the pr firms and consulting firms and all the other 560 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,040 Speaker 4: companies who make money off them making money yes, and 561 00:33:34,080 --> 00:33:37,320 Speaker 4: who can also say publicly and to their employees and 562 00:33:37,360 --> 00:33:40,000 Speaker 4: their perspective employees, oh look here we are at cop 563 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:43,440 Speaker 4: We must care about the climate crisis. Hire us, come 564 00:33:43,480 --> 00:33:45,680 Speaker 4: work for us. There's kind of some second and third 565 00:33:45,800 --> 00:33:49,000 Speaker 4: order money making off the appearance of doing stuff that 566 00:33:49,560 --> 00:33:50,280 Speaker 4: follows from these. 567 00:33:51,000 --> 00:33:51,600 Speaker 2: Absolutely. 568 00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,320 Speaker 4: Yeah, I feel like we should spend a little bit 569 00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,080 Speaker 4: of time talking about what we should do instead of 570 00:33:57,120 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 4: managing tons, not just the problems with man tons. Can 571 00:34:01,160 --> 00:34:03,200 Speaker 4: you give a bit of an overview of I hesitate 572 00:34:03,280 --> 00:34:06,440 Speaker 4: to call it a solution section, because I feel like 573 00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:09,280 Speaker 4: that has been so trivialized in a lot of ways, 574 00:34:09,320 --> 00:34:12,319 Speaker 4: because solutions are always kind of a or have been 575 00:34:13,000 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 4: just like performative in a lot of cases. Yours are not, though, 576 00:34:16,000 --> 00:34:17,480 Speaker 4: and so I want to make sure we spend some 577 00:34:17,520 --> 00:34:18,640 Speaker 4: time unpacking them. 578 00:34:20,040 --> 00:34:24,080 Speaker 2: I described the approach in the book as radical pragmatism. 579 00:34:24,400 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 2: It's radical in that it gets to the root of 580 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,360 Speaker 2: the problem, which is this fundamental power asymmetry between fossil 581 00:34:30,400 --> 00:34:33,560 Speaker 2: asset owners and green asset owners. But it's pragmatic in 582 00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 2: the sense that like, we need things that are actually 583 00:34:35,640 --> 00:34:39,799 Speaker 2: possible and that don't require an entire remaking of the 584 00:34:39,840 --> 00:34:42,399 Speaker 2: international order, because we just don't have time for that. 585 00:34:42,520 --> 00:34:48,040 Speaker 2: Climate wise, you know, solutions are hard. We're really there's 586 00:34:48,080 --> 00:34:50,319 Speaker 2: a lot of grid luck, there's a lot of polarization, 587 00:34:50,800 --> 00:34:53,319 Speaker 2: and so I tried, really there's a lot, but there's 588 00:34:53,320 --> 00:34:55,319 Speaker 2: also a lot of doomerism, right, And so I tried 589 00:34:55,320 --> 00:34:57,640 Speaker 2: really hard to think about, Okay, well, how can we 590 00:34:57,800 --> 00:35:02,040 Speaker 2: chip away at this problem of the incumbency of fossil 591 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:07,160 Speaker 2: asset owners and really not just think about the energy transition, 592 00:35:07,320 --> 00:35:14,200 Speaker 2: but think about the politics of creating conditions for destabilizing 593 00:35:14,200 --> 00:35:17,000 Speaker 2: the fossil fuel industry, which includes building up green asset 594 00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:20,759 Speaker 2: owners as political you know, political interests of their own. 595 00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:24,920 Speaker 2: And so with all of those caveats, like so basically 596 00:35:24,920 --> 00:35:26,600 Speaker 2: I say, okay, well, if we're not going to think 597 00:35:26,600 --> 00:35:28,920 Speaker 2: about tons, we got to think about dollars. How do 598 00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:32,839 Speaker 2: we move dollars around in the global economy? And the 599 00:35:32,880 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 2: first Solutions chapter really looks at it looks at tax 600 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,239 Speaker 2: and investment policy, and so I did this deep dive 601 00:35:41,280 --> 00:35:44,120 Speaker 2: into international tax law, which I cannot recommend to anyone. 602 00:35:45,560 --> 00:35:48,160 Speaker 4: Thanks for taking one for the team there exactly. 603 00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:55,600 Speaker 2: The OECD is now in the process of implementing these rules. 604 00:35:56,000 --> 00:35:59,160 Speaker 2: They're called the Model Rules on base erosion and profit shifting, 605 00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:03,080 Speaker 2: basically to put in place at corporate minimum tax to 606 00:36:03,160 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 2: reduce offshoring corporations offshoring their profits to low tax jurisdictions, 607 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,880 Speaker 2: so to reduce tax avoidance and tax arbitrage. And this 608 00:36:15,000 --> 00:36:21,240 Speaker 2: is actually surprisingly like well underway. It was the Model 609 00:36:21,280 --> 00:36:23,400 Speaker 2: rules themselves. It's not a treaty, but it's like the 610 00:36:23,480 --> 00:36:27,160 Speaker 2: sort of agreement that it puts together a framework that 611 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,960 Speaker 2: countries can go and implement in their domestic laws. So 612 00:36:31,000 --> 00:36:33,560 Speaker 2: in twenty twenty one they came to this agreement and 613 00:36:33,640 --> 00:36:36,480 Speaker 2: slowly but surely countries about sixty of them now have 614 00:36:36,680 --> 00:36:41,440 Speaker 2: put in place some pieces of this corporate minimum tax. 615 00:36:42,200 --> 00:36:44,399 Speaker 2: And I argue that this is good for a bunch 616 00:36:44,400 --> 00:36:51,360 Speaker 2: of reasons. Number one, governments need money, and they need money. 617 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,200 Speaker 2: And even number two, ideally they use this money for 618 00:36:54,239 --> 00:36:58,120 Speaker 2: climate stuff. Maybe they don't. Number three, even if they 619 00:36:58,200 --> 00:37:00,760 Speaker 2: don't use it for climate stuff, if they are taxing 620 00:37:01,360 --> 00:37:04,680 Speaker 2: wealthy fossil asset owners, they are taking power away from 621 00:37:04,800 --> 00:37:08,719 Speaker 2: material power, away from those actors, which is important. 622 00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,480 Speaker 4: I actually thought that was a really revolutionary point. It's 623 00:37:12,480 --> 00:37:15,680 Speaker 4: so straightforward, but I've certainly never come across it in 624 00:37:15,800 --> 00:37:19,840 Speaker 4: the climate discourse, the fact that even if that money 625 00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:24,080 Speaker 4: doesn't get used to tackle the climate crisis, it still 626 00:37:24,239 --> 00:37:27,880 Speaker 4: makes them less powerful. And that is just such a 627 00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,799 Speaker 4: fundamentally clear and straightforward argument for doing it. 628 00:37:31,480 --> 00:37:34,560 Speaker 2: And the related one is that we know that wealth 629 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:38,160 Speaker 2: inequality is a huge contributor to climate change. So again, 630 00:37:38,239 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 2: the more you can chip away at this huge income inequality, 631 00:37:44,160 --> 00:37:49,600 Speaker 2: you are contributing at least indirectly to reducing emissions. 632 00:37:49,840 --> 00:37:53,200 Speaker 4: Can you actually explain how wealth and incoming equality drives 633 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:55,520 Speaker 4: or contributes to the climate crisis. 634 00:37:56,040 --> 00:37:59,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, So, OXPAN does this report every year called the 635 00:37:59,040 --> 00:38:02,680 Speaker 2: Carbon Inequality Gap, and it just shows I don't have 636 00:38:02,760 --> 00:38:05,200 Speaker 2: the numbers quite in front of me, but it shows 637 00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:07,960 Speaker 2: that the wealthier you are, the more you emit. And 638 00:38:08,000 --> 00:38:11,480 Speaker 2: so that the top ten percent of people in the 639 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:14,800 Speaker 2: world that in terms of income are responsible for something 640 00:38:14,880 --> 00:38:21,040 Speaker 2: like seventy percent of global emission, some overwhelming whelming number. Right. So, 641 00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,640 Speaker 2: and you know we see it in like the tabloids 642 00:38:23,719 --> 00:38:26,239 Speaker 2: or whatever all the time, yachts and private jets and 643 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:29,280 Speaker 2: all these kinds of things, eating meat, flying around. All 644 00:38:29,360 --> 00:38:33,759 Speaker 2: these very carbon intensive activities are enabled by wealth, and 645 00:38:33,800 --> 00:38:37,920 Speaker 2: when you don't pay taxes, you get richer. It's pretty 646 00:38:38,040 --> 00:38:41,200 Speaker 2: you know, pretty basic math. So I mean, the corporate 647 00:38:41,200 --> 00:38:44,520 Speaker 2: minimum tax doesn't apply to individuals, although there is a 648 00:38:44,560 --> 00:38:48,120 Speaker 2: separate discussion about a billionaire's tax for a very small 649 00:38:48,200 --> 00:38:51,200 Speaker 2: number of people in the world. This covers corporations, but 650 00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:55,640 Speaker 2: it is a step in that direction nonetheless. So I 651 00:38:55,680 --> 00:38:57,960 Speaker 2: can talk a little bit about the investment piece as well, 652 00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:00,680 Speaker 2: which is also another Yeah, let's do that. So the 653 00:39:00,719 --> 00:39:02,120 Speaker 2: other thing that I look at in the book is 654 00:39:02,160 --> 00:39:06,800 Speaker 2: called the Investor State Dispute Settlement System, which is basically 655 00:39:06,840 --> 00:39:12,400 Speaker 2: a set of investment protections for FDI for foreign direct investment. 656 00:39:12,880 --> 00:39:17,440 Speaker 2: So if you are a company and you invest in 657 00:39:17,480 --> 00:39:20,960 Speaker 2: the you have a project where you're investing in a country, 658 00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 2: if that country does something that jeopardizes your investment, the 659 00:39:25,040 --> 00:39:29,440 Speaker 2: company can sue basically through an arbitration system. So it's private, 660 00:39:29,560 --> 00:39:33,400 Speaker 2: private arbitrators. And what the work of others has shown 661 00:39:33,640 --> 00:39:39,320 Speaker 2: is that these protections through ISDS have resulted in huge 662 00:39:39,400 --> 00:39:43,239 Speaker 2: payouts to fossil fuel companies and mining companies because they 663 00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:45,720 Speaker 2: build a mine or they start to, you know, prospect 664 00:39:45,760 --> 00:39:49,280 Speaker 2: for oil and then countries say, hey, we're not doing 665 00:39:49,320 --> 00:39:53,000 Speaker 2: offshore oil prospecting anymore, or you know, we're not doing 666 00:39:53,120 --> 00:39:55,680 Speaker 2: you know, because we pass some climate regulations and then 667 00:39:55,760 --> 00:39:59,520 Speaker 2: the country, the firm can sue that country. So in 668 00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:04,200 Speaker 2: the US, yes, and Canada when so you might have 669 00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,879 Speaker 2: heard of this little thing called the Keystone pipeline when 670 00:40:08,000 --> 00:40:14,000 Speaker 2: the US canceled those permits Canada, the Alberta Well, there's 671 00:40:14,040 --> 00:40:16,319 Speaker 2: a couple of different suits, but basically a couple of 672 00:40:16,880 --> 00:40:21,800 Speaker 2: energy firms in Canada, TC Energy included wanted to sue 673 00:40:21,840 --> 00:40:25,000 Speaker 2: the US for fifteen billion dollars because it couldn't build 674 00:40:25,000 --> 00:40:27,680 Speaker 2: its pipeline, saying we lost our you know, we lost 675 00:40:27,719 --> 00:40:32,759 Speaker 2: this potential revenue. And this case didn't go through because 676 00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:37,880 Speaker 2: it was brought under KUZMA as opposed to NAFTA. NAFTA 677 00:40:37,920 --> 00:40:42,000 Speaker 2: had these ISDS protections in the treaty, but KUZMA does 678 00:40:42,040 --> 00:40:44,560 Speaker 2: not for Canada, so it can't make these claims. 679 00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,560 Speaker 6: So but that's an example of like TC Energy, we 680 00:40:47,600 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 6: don't need to be subsidizing pipelines. TC Energy doesn't need 681 00:40:51,040 --> 00:40:53,360 Speaker 6: any more money. And you know, in the case of 682 00:40:53,400 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 6: the US potentially it could have paid it. 683 00:40:55,000 --> 00:40:57,440 Speaker 2: But in a lot of cases these are in developing 684 00:40:57,440 --> 00:41:00,920 Speaker 2: countries where it's just huge amounts of money for governments 685 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:04,120 Speaker 2: that really can't afford to pay. The proposal here is 686 00:41:04,160 --> 00:41:06,440 Speaker 2: a very basic one, which is to say, again doesn't 687 00:41:06,680 --> 00:41:09,799 Speaker 2: involve a huge amount of work, is just to say 688 00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:13,480 Speaker 2: countries should withdraw from or change the terms of treaties 689 00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:18,080 Speaker 2: that have these ISDS protections. It can be done unilaterally, 690 00:41:18,520 --> 00:41:20,239 Speaker 2: and there are some countries that have done this. 691 00:41:21,080 --> 00:41:24,440 Speaker 4: How much do you think the threat of a suit 692 00:41:24,960 --> 00:41:30,360 Speaker 4: or some sort of arbitration from the ISDS process has deterred, 693 00:41:30,960 --> 00:41:34,680 Speaker 4: especially maybe smaller mid sized countries from putting in place 694 00:41:34,840 --> 00:41:37,000 Speaker 4: climate related regulations or laws. 695 00:41:37,760 --> 00:41:42,919 Speaker 2: So Kyla Shanhara, who has done a lot of work 696 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,920 Speaker 2: on this, calls this a regulatory chill that developing countries 697 00:41:47,960 --> 00:41:51,640 Speaker 2: are legitimately afraid of being sued and so they don't 698 00:41:51,680 --> 00:41:55,960 Speaker 2: put in place climate regulations because of this fear. So 699 00:41:56,440 --> 00:42:01,360 Speaker 2: it's not just the payouts, it's the legend slation foregone 700 00:42:01,840 --> 00:42:06,160 Speaker 2: for fear of you know, arbitration from these private firms. 701 00:42:06,360 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 2: So it's a double whammy and it needs to go. 702 00:42:10,080 --> 00:42:12,800 Speaker 2: It would also, you know, if we really care about 703 00:42:13,480 --> 00:42:18,799 Speaker 2: sort of accurately pricing climate risk, we wouldn't have these 704 00:42:18,880 --> 00:42:24,160 Speaker 2: kind of protections, right, So building a pipeline or opening 705 00:42:24,160 --> 00:42:26,719 Speaker 2: a mind becomes a much riskier endeavor when you know 706 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:30,200 Speaker 2: that you can't potentially get a payout from some country 707 00:42:30,239 --> 00:42:32,000 Speaker 2: if they decide not to do this anymore. 708 00:42:32,600 --> 00:42:33,880 Speaker 4: There's a lot of stuff in the book that we 709 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:36,239 Speaker 4: didn't get to talk about. One of them is your 710 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:38,600 Speaker 4: argument what we sort of touched on it, but your 711 00:42:38,719 --> 00:42:42,880 Speaker 4: argument that one of the ways to counter the power 712 00:42:43,280 --> 00:42:47,480 Speaker 4: of fossil asset owners is to create a more powerful 713 00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,440 Speaker 4: class of green asset owners to create winners. So climate 714 00:42:51,440 --> 00:42:54,000 Speaker 4: policy is not seen as something that is just a 715 00:42:54,000 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 4: loss or a punishment, but actually we have people who win. 716 00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:02,280 Speaker 4: We have organizations, entrenched interests who in when these policies 717 00:43:02,280 --> 00:43:05,120 Speaker 4: go into a place. And so there's something you raised 718 00:43:05,560 --> 00:43:07,120 Speaker 4: toward the end of the book that I wanted to 719 00:43:07,120 --> 00:43:10,239 Speaker 4: ask you about, which is the service industry. And a 720 00:43:10,280 --> 00:43:14,680 Speaker 4: lot of this discussion focuses on manufacturing for good reason, 721 00:43:15,120 --> 00:43:17,200 Speaker 4: but there's as you point out, there's you know a 722 00:43:17,320 --> 00:43:21,360 Speaker 4: huge portion of a lot of countries workers are working 723 00:43:21,360 --> 00:43:25,920 Speaker 4: in service jobs. And how do you bring decarbonization to 724 00:43:25,960 --> 00:43:28,279 Speaker 4: the industries they work in in a way that they win. 725 00:43:28,560 --> 00:43:30,640 Speaker 4: And I'm just wondering how you're thinking about that. 726 00:43:31,480 --> 00:43:33,640 Speaker 2: It's a great question. And I started thinking about this 727 00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:36,040 Speaker 2: when I, you know, did this, you know, started looking 728 00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,399 Speaker 2: at sort of green industrial policy and how do we, yeah, 729 00:43:39,440 --> 00:43:45,200 Speaker 2: how do countries really think systematically about decarbonization as an 730 00:43:45,200 --> 00:43:48,279 Speaker 2: economic policy? And I thought, wait a minute, Like, I mean, 731 00:43:48,360 --> 00:43:50,719 Speaker 2: and I've seen it here, Like, you know, Canada is 732 00:43:50,760 --> 00:43:53,080 Speaker 2: not going to become a global leader in the production 733 00:43:53,160 --> 00:43:56,879 Speaker 2: of evs, right, so if they're going to green their 734 00:43:57,080 --> 00:43:59,080 Speaker 2: you know, their economy, they're going to have to figure 735 00:43:59,120 --> 00:44:01,680 Speaker 2: out other ways to do it. And so I looked 736 00:44:01,719 --> 00:44:04,480 Speaker 2: around a lot to see, Okay, well who's thought about this, 737 00:44:04,800 --> 00:44:07,840 Speaker 2: and most people said, we need to think about this. 738 00:44:08,960 --> 00:44:10,839 Speaker 2: So I'm just going to sort of plant to flag 739 00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:12,799 Speaker 2: and say we need to think about this. I mean, 740 00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:17,160 Speaker 2: there's been some discussion of sort of green jobs and reskilling, 741 00:44:17,320 --> 00:44:19,440 Speaker 2: and I think that that's you know, a piece of it, 742 00:44:19,480 --> 00:44:21,600 Speaker 2: and there are people who have looked sort of more 743 00:44:21,640 --> 00:44:24,880 Speaker 2: carefully at specific sectors. But I mean, I think we 744 00:44:24,920 --> 00:44:27,960 Speaker 2: also need to think about like the care economy as 745 00:44:28,320 --> 00:44:32,080 Speaker 2: part of decarbonizing, you know, take that tax money and 746 00:44:32,600 --> 00:44:35,760 Speaker 2: pay for teachers and nurses. These are all low carbon 747 00:44:35,800 --> 00:44:39,960 Speaker 2: activities that we need desperately in a lot of OECD nations. 748 00:44:40,040 --> 00:44:42,799 Speaker 2: So I don't have a good proposal for like, how 749 00:44:42,800 --> 00:44:45,600 Speaker 2: do we think about that, except to say, I mean, 750 00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:47,680 Speaker 2: I think one of the sort of arguments underpinning a 751 00:44:47,719 --> 00:44:51,439 Speaker 2: lot of the book is that solutions, even the sort 752 00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:56,920 Speaker 2: of pragmatic ones, require a more muscular state. That is 753 00:44:56,960 --> 00:45:00,600 Speaker 2: not something that's really on the menu these days. Although 754 00:45:00,960 --> 00:45:04,000 Speaker 2: things are changing so quickly with the sort of explosion 755 00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,840 Speaker 2: or I should say implosion of the global trading regime 756 00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:09,239 Speaker 2: that countries are really now trying to figure out, well, 757 00:45:09,400 --> 00:45:12,120 Speaker 2: how do we retool our economies if we can't just 758 00:45:12,160 --> 00:45:14,760 Speaker 2: buy and sell cheap stuff all the time? 759 00:45:16,000 --> 00:45:16,239 Speaker 7: Right? 760 00:45:16,320 --> 00:45:18,600 Speaker 2: And so that I think it provides a window for 761 00:45:18,719 --> 00:45:22,319 Speaker 2: countries to think more carefully about what the service the 762 00:45:22,360 --> 00:45:24,840 Speaker 2: role of the service industry is, But we haven't. I 763 00:45:24,880 --> 00:45:26,640 Speaker 2: don't think we've seen a lot of it play out 764 00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:29,440 Speaker 2: in politics thus far. 765 00:45:30,640 --> 00:45:34,160 Speaker 4: Is there anything in particular that you will be looking 766 00:45:34,239 --> 00:45:38,080 Speaker 4: for when the COP convenes I think the second week 767 00:45:38,120 --> 00:45:41,200 Speaker 4: in November. Are there signs that would tell you, you know, 768 00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,040 Speaker 4: some of the ideas you talk about in the book 769 00:45:43,120 --> 00:45:45,520 Speaker 4: might be seeing some progress or not. 770 00:45:46,200 --> 00:45:50,360 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, I think developing countries have been in particular, 771 00:45:50,480 --> 00:45:54,960 Speaker 2: have been fighting very hard for language and activity around 772 00:45:55,080 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 2: just transition. Like a lot of that is sort of 773 00:45:57,760 --> 00:46:02,920 Speaker 2: code for my need to develop in countries to decarbonize. 774 00:46:03,000 --> 00:46:06,759 Speaker 2: And so if there's any thinking about a just transition 775 00:46:07,200 --> 00:46:11,440 Speaker 2: that involves a real mechanism for funding beyond, hey, guys, 776 00:46:11,719 --> 00:46:13,839 Speaker 2: let's all contribute to this, like this is what we've seen. 777 00:46:14,280 --> 00:46:16,800 Speaker 4: At some point in the future, we promise, Yes. 778 00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:18,520 Speaker 2: At some point in the future, we promise we'll do it. 779 00:46:19,040 --> 00:46:23,920 Speaker 2: But if there's a real conversation about like linking that 780 00:46:24,040 --> 00:46:29,239 Speaker 2: mechanism to other actual flows of existing money, that might 781 00:46:29,280 --> 00:46:31,279 Speaker 2: be a step in the right direction. But right now 782 00:46:31,600 --> 00:46:34,600 Speaker 2: I think it's a reckoning moment. Like I think, you know, 783 00:46:34,680 --> 00:46:36,600 Speaker 2: I make some suggestions in the book about how we 784 00:46:36,640 --> 00:46:40,400 Speaker 2: can sort of adjust our expectations downward for what the 785 00:46:40,480 --> 00:46:43,200 Speaker 2: cop can and can't do, and I think that's really 786 00:46:43,320 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 2: what we need to think about, because otherwise we're going 787 00:46:45,680 --> 00:46:48,000 Speaker 2: to have this cottage industry sort of keep pushing for 788 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,680 Speaker 2: managing tons and legitimating this process, and you know, round 789 00:46:52,719 --> 00:46:53,279 Speaker 2: and round we go. 790 00:46:54,600 --> 00:46:56,080 Speaker 4: There are a couple of points in the book where 791 00:46:56,120 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 4: you address that cottage industry directly, which I appreciated very much, 792 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:01,680 Speaker 4: And I certainly hope that a copy of your book 793 00:47:01,920 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 4: will end up in the hands of everyone there, which 794 00:47:04,600 --> 00:47:08,080 Speaker 4: would also be great for book sales too, but I 795 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:09,640 Speaker 4: think it would be good for the climate as well. 796 00:47:10,600 --> 00:47:12,720 Speaker 2: Bad for my carbon footprint, but good for it. Yeah, 797 00:47:12,760 --> 00:47:13,600 Speaker 2: so we'll see. 798 00:47:14,239 --> 00:47:15,200 Speaker 4: Thanks so much, Jessica. 799 00:47:15,640 --> 00:47:17,200 Speaker 2: Awesome thing. It was lovely to talk to you and 800 00:47:17,200 --> 00:47:18,240 Speaker 2: thank you for reading my book. 801 00:47:29,239 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 7: This time of year, everyone talks about going dry, but 802 00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:35,600 Speaker 7: at Athletic Brewing Company, we're skipping that because we prefer 803 00:47:35,680 --> 00:47:39,280 Speaker 7: going athletic, which isn't dry at all. From crisp goldens 804 00:47:39,280 --> 00:47:42,760 Speaker 7: to hoppy IPAs and limited releases in between, you'll find 805 00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,879 Speaker 7: something that fits your style. 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