WEBVTT - James Blake 0:00:08.160 --> 0:00:14.240 Pushkin. James Blake has managed to distill his music down 0:00:14.240 --> 0:00:19.400 to pure emotion. His voice is transcendent, define genre and 0:00:19.480 --> 0:00:21.520 gender and the best of the R and B tradition. 0:00:22.560 --> 0:00:25.520 Contrasted with the unsettled, off kilter nature of his college 0:00:25.520 --> 0:00:30.320 style production, his sound is deeply stirring. In a word, 0:00:30.800 --> 0:00:35.800 James Blake's music is sublime. After releasing his self titled 0:00:35.800 --> 0:00:39.200 debut album in two and eleven, the British born James 0:00:39.200 --> 0:00:42.560 Blake went on to win Grammys and England's top music honor, 0:00:42.640 --> 0:00:46.839 the Mercury Prize. He's also produced and collaborated with a 0:00:46.880 --> 0:00:51.159 ton of musicians, including Jay Z, Beyonce, Billie Eilish and 0:00:51.280 --> 0:00:55.160 Travis Scott. James flew from England to work with Rick 0:00:55.200 --> 0:00:59.520 Rubin at Shangrela and Malibu in twenty sixteen. They worked 0:00:59.520 --> 0:01:02.960 together on a third album, The Color and Anything, and 0:01:03.000 --> 0:01:06.039 as you'll hear in this conversation with Rick Today, James 0:01:06.080 --> 0:01:09.120 Blake had a life changing experience while working and living 0:01:09.160 --> 0:01:12.480 at Shango Law with Jamila Jamil, but the time was 0:01:12.520 --> 0:01:16.679 his new girlfriend. James also recalls an embarrassing experience that 0:01:16.760 --> 0:01:20.320 left him making music in secret for years and tells 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:23.600 Rick that recording his new EP of covers solidified his 0:01:23.720 --> 0:01:31.320 love of perfect pop songs. This is broken record liner 0:01:31.360 --> 0:01:39.520 notes for the digital age. I'm justin Richmond. Just a 0:01:39.640 --> 0:01:41.840 quick note here. You can listen to all of the 0:01:41.920 --> 0:01:44.760 music mentioned in this episode on our playlist, which you 0:01:44.800 --> 0:01:47.640 can find a link to in the show notes for 0:01:47.760 --> 0:01:51.080 licensing reasons, each time a song is referenced in this episode, 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:57.000 you'll hear this sound effect all right. Enjoy the episode. 0:01:58.600 --> 0:02:02.720 Here's Rick, Rubin and James live from Shangola talk about 0:02:02.760 --> 0:02:05.680 from from the first album, like from making things. How 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.600 did it start and what was your process because I 0:02:09.600 --> 0:02:13.280 imagine it's evolved over time. Yeah, first album, let's start 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:17.280 with the well, the first album, I think everything started from. 0:02:17.720 --> 0:02:19.520 In fact, very often I would just sing into the 0:02:19.560 --> 0:02:22.600 mic and then I would remix the vocal essentially so 0:02:22.760 --> 0:02:28.040 like my brother. Yeah, So that one was just I 0:02:28.080 --> 0:02:31.760 sang it into the mic as a free floating vocal, 0:02:33.320 --> 0:02:36.360 no music behind it, and and then I built the 0:02:36.520 --> 0:02:41.560 entire production around that one vocal and if I remember correctly, 0:02:41.560 --> 0:02:43.360 it doesn't change all one. I was gonna say, it's 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.000 all one vocal phrase that just gets stacked and just 0:02:46.320 --> 0:02:48.799 harmonized the different ways. Pretty sure. It's one vocal phrase. 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:58.800 We listen to that. Let's let's incredible, it's incredible, it's ridiculous. 0:02:59.639 --> 0:03:01.200 I would just thinking as I was listening to that, 0:03:01.240 --> 0:03:03.760 since your first album came out, I've not been introduced 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:07.080 to any artists since that. I've liked more than you 0:03:07.320 --> 0:03:11.919 since that time. That's Sae, It's it's the truth. Nobody 0:03:11.960 --> 0:03:15.320 close like it's my favorite music. Thank you music. That's 0:03:15.440 --> 0:03:21.880 an unbelievable accolade and compliment. Thank you. It's unlike anything. 0:03:22.040 --> 0:03:28.960 It's so original and so musical, and so seemingly awkward 0:03:30.160 --> 0:03:34.359 yet so musical. It doesn't make sense, doesn't make sense 0:03:34.400 --> 0:03:36.840 for it to be as groovy as it is for 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:39.920 the pieces to come together. That that really seemed like 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:42.280 they don't fit together. Yeah, they really didn't seem really 0:03:42.280 --> 0:03:45.600 don't seem like fether. It felt like, I mean, I 0:03:45.680 --> 0:03:48.560 haven't heard that in six or seven years, and it 0:03:48.680 --> 0:03:53.839 felt really strange. Yeah, but in the best way, like 0:03:53.840 --> 0:03:58.280 like you're surprised by the changes, Yeah, because no one 0:03:58.280 --> 0:04:00.600 other than you would have made those changes. I wouldn't 0:04:00.640 --> 0:04:03.080 even have made those changes, now, you know. And that's 0:04:03.160 --> 0:04:05.920 that's the thing. Is that my you know, the things 0:04:05.960 --> 0:04:10.400 that surprise me now are different. Yeah, so obviously the 0:04:10.440 --> 0:04:13.520 sound of my music change. But but I and I 0:04:13.560 --> 0:04:17.280 know I could never go back and do the same thing. Yes, 0:04:17.600 --> 0:04:22.280 but once you've kind of bottled something, there's no need 0:04:22.320 --> 0:04:25.760 to to do it again. But but I when I 0:04:25.760 --> 0:04:28.280 listened to it, I'm like, it makes me think of 0:04:28.400 --> 0:04:31.240 what I was and who I was then. I almost look, 0:04:31.400 --> 0:04:33.919 it's almost like I took that vocal and I flew 0:04:33.920 --> 0:04:36.000 it to like fifty different countries and put a different 0:04:36.000 --> 0:04:39.520 backdrop on it. Yes, and it's drilling and it's really fun. 0:04:39.720 --> 0:04:41.919 It's thrilling. Like I'm listening back to it, I'm like, 0:04:41.960 --> 0:04:44.320 oh that's you know, Yeah, it's really I got it. 0:04:44.560 --> 0:04:47.640 I got something right. I really felt, because it's actually 0:04:47.720 --> 0:04:50.680 unusual to listen back to something you did before and 0:04:50.680 --> 0:04:54.080 go and and feel like it's still kind of weirdly perfect, 0:04:54.120 --> 0:04:57.000 even though it's kind of crazy. Yes, and if you 0:04:57.000 --> 0:05:01.120 said you you wouldn't make the same choices today. But 0:05:01.480 --> 0:05:05.039 hearing it, it's super cool. I'm glad at it. Yeah, 0:05:05.560 --> 0:05:07.840 it's glad that it's in the world. Yeah, I'm really 0:05:07.839 --> 0:05:10.200 glad I did. It's actually really kind of sweet to 0:05:10.240 --> 0:05:13.279 listen to this stuff because there wouldn't be another time 0:05:13.320 --> 0:05:15.800 I would do this, and it's and it's kind of 0:05:15.839 --> 0:05:20.039 re engaging, almost like revisiting, like a cellular structure that 0:05:20.080 --> 0:05:23.279 I had before. Yes, so tell me about how how 0:05:23.320 --> 0:05:25.599 did you make that? What do you remember about it? 0:05:25.640 --> 0:05:29.320 And what do you remember about yourself? Then I would 0:05:29.360 --> 0:05:35.080 have been in my university housing and what school did 0:05:35.080 --> 0:05:39.240 you go to? It was Goldsmith's College. And I was 0:05:39.960 --> 0:05:43.719 incredibly I would say reclusive. I would say I was 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:49.040 very angry, I think, and very lonely, and I didn't 0:05:49.040 --> 0:05:51.080 have I wasn't in a relationship. I'd never been in one. 0:05:51.839 --> 0:05:54.640 I was super sort of there was no reason for 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:57.039 me really to go out anywhere, so I just stayed 0:05:57.040 --> 0:06:00.839 in my in my house. I remember being dreamily, highly 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:03.480 emotional at that time. I was listening to Blue by 0:06:03.560 --> 0:06:06.440 Joni Mitchell every night before I went to sleep, and 0:06:06.480 --> 0:06:10.480 I listened to Bonivair for Emma Forever Ago every night, 0:06:10.760 --> 0:06:12.440 and I would just sleep to that music, and then 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:14.440 i'd wake up and I'd feel creative and i'd just 0:06:14.120 --> 0:06:18.560 make things. I'd make music well into the night. And 0:06:19.080 --> 0:06:21.039 what I was normally doing is singing a vocal, and 0:06:21.040 --> 0:06:23.960 I had this cad mic and it was cheap and 0:06:24.160 --> 0:06:28.920 had a little Firefox sound card and a MacBook and 0:06:29.400 --> 0:06:31.159 a Midi control and that was it. And I just 0:06:31.240 --> 0:06:32.960 sang a couple of vocals and then what I would 0:06:33.000 --> 0:06:37.600 do is get the massive plug in and I would 0:06:37.640 --> 0:06:40.160 just I'd initialize the patch so it was just as 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:42.160 all wave and I would make it a sign wave 0:06:42.720 --> 0:06:44.520 and I would just play it like an organ. And 0:06:45.200 --> 0:06:47.320 what keyboard were you driving it? I was using a 0:06:48.120 --> 0:06:50.920 just a little Midi keyboard like a am Audio thing 0:06:51.040 --> 0:06:54.159 or like a n Ovation I think. And it was 0:06:54.240 --> 0:06:58.800 literally something that any student would have. I mean, you know, 0:06:58.920 --> 0:07:01.160 if they were yet, if they if they wanted him, 0:07:01.200 --> 0:07:03.400 if they wanted to do that, then there was that 0:07:03.520 --> 0:07:06.400 the barrier of entry was very low. Yes, So what 0:07:06.400 --> 0:07:08.159 you would do, yes in terms of like in terms 0:07:08.200 --> 0:07:11.640 of within the context of you know, because I was 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:13.760 lucky to even be able to afford that at the time. 0:07:14.360 --> 0:07:17.880 My parents brought me a MacBook for college and I 0:07:17.960 --> 0:07:20.520 just that was what I went with, and so I 0:07:20.560 --> 0:07:24.280 was lucky to have that. But and I would find 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:29.800 different ways to harmonize the vocal. So what ended up 0:07:29.880 --> 0:07:34.040 becoming sort of my trademark or even my biggest tool 0:07:34.560 --> 0:07:39.360 was what I ended up kind of developing out of necessity, 0:07:39.480 --> 0:07:44.960 which was to take a melody and to almost in 0:07:45.000 --> 0:07:48.840 a sort of bark or you know, kind of in 0:07:48.880 --> 0:07:51.440 a classical type sense, it's just take a melody and 0:07:51.480 --> 0:07:56.440 reharmonize until I find the thing that feels good. By 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:58.720 that point, i'd I've been playing piano since I was 0:07:59.320 --> 0:08:02.240 six years old, so that this came naturally to me 0:08:02.280 --> 0:08:04.960 to try. And but it was more about placing an 0:08:05.000 --> 0:08:10.600 emotion within the vocal with a chord, so each each 0:08:11.080 --> 0:08:15.200 each emotional moment had its own chord, you know. So 0:08:15.360 --> 0:08:18.440 you didn't you didn't learn that though you you I 0:08:18.440 --> 0:08:21.640 mean you learned that yourself. Yeah. I figured it out 0:08:21.680 --> 0:08:23.920 over I figured it out over time. Yeah, I sort of. 0:08:25.440 --> 0:08:31.000 It was my way of creating something new out of 0:08:31.040 --> 0:08:35.280 something that was that felt mundane, because ultimately, you know, 0:08:35.360 --> 0:08:38.920 like a vocal unaccompanied if it's not a great melody, 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:42.080 and I wasn't an inspired melody writer, So I just 0:08:42.200 --> 0:08:45.560 kind of tried to make you know, because I know, 0:08:45.679 --> 0:08:48.920 I know people who have the gift of just being 0:08:49.000 --> 0:08:52.880 melodically supreme, and when people can do that as fantastic. 0:08:52.880 --> 0:08:54.240 But I wasn't able to do that, So what I 0:08:54.280 --> 0:08:56.840 did was try and find it in other ways by 0:08:57.080 --> 0:09:00.600 harmonizing it differently so that it seemed like an incredible 0:09:00.640 --> 0:09:04.319 melody to me. Yes, um, I think the most I'm 0:09:04.320 --> 0:09:05.880 going to request that we get, could we ask for 0:09:05.920 --> 0:09:07.599 a little keyboard to be sent down just so that 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:12.959 you could demonstrate Yeah. Yeah, One thing I realized pretty 0:09:12.960 --> 0:09:17.600 early on was a melody that you know, the more 0:09:17.640 --> 0:09:19.840 I listened to it, the less special it became to me. 0:09:19.920 --> 0:09:23.600 But if I reharmonized it, then it was exciting again. 0:09:23.840 --> 0:09:29.760 So so to re harmonize a melody and also to 0:09:29.880 --> 0:09:32.360 work within you know that a lot of the chord 0:09:32.400 --> 0:09:35.600 clusters would happen because I was working with usually quite 0:09:35.600 --> 0:09:37.960 a small MIDI controller, so I wasn't working with the 0:09:38.000 --> 0:09:40.920 whole range. So actually, you know, how to get the 0:09:40.920 --> 0:09:44.319 most out of I don't know, you know, two octaves 0:09:45.320 --> 0:09:48.640 was important too. There's multiple parts in that in that 0:09:48.760 --> 0:09:50.760 I'd never learned to share, but none of them are 0:09:50.800 --> 0:09:53.880 all like that that like you know, hands stretched, it's 0:09:53.920 --> 0:10:00.040 all um, you know, like just within this range. And 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.319 then I'd placed that part and then you'd have another 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.240 part there's a base and another part that's at the top, 0:10:04.360 --> 0:10:06.600 which would all be the same keyboard. Just change you 0:10:06.720 --> 0:10:09.280 just change your time. I'm just plus yeah, just active 0:10:09.360 --> 0:10:14.280 down and so but you know, it was a bit 0:10:14.320 --> 0:10:17.360 but I think it was a three active. But if 0:10:17.360 --> 0:10:22.720 I was feeling particularly uninspired, and it was just you know, 0:10:22.760 --> 0:10:27.240 there's so many ways of arriving and leaving and so 0:10:30.520 --> 0:10:35.720 specific order for a song, or would you record doing 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.560 a lot of that and then chop it up. I'd 0:10:37.600 --> 0:10:40.480 record a lot of that, and then I'd sample myself basically, 0:10:40.559 --> 0:10:44.320 And that's what happened with as soon as you hear it, 0:10:44.640 --> 0:10:47.480 you're like that, and I remember you being like that. 0:10:47.880 --> 0:10:53.640 So that's where, that's where we want. It's amazing. It's 0:10:53.679 --> 0:10:56.720 just amazing to see you do that. And and I'm 0:10:56.720 --> 0:10:59.360 glad that you've come to recognize that what you do 0:10:59.400 --> 0:11:01.440 as a that work, it's not what other people do, 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.160 so that you can continue to do it. You know, 0:11:04.559 --> 0:11:06.480 I feel like the more you try to do what 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:10.480 anyone else does, the less interesting I've done. I've been there, man, 0:11:10.520 --> 0:11:14.600 I've been there. I've I've you know, for the years 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.760 after the color and anything I was trying to chase 0:11:18.120 --> 0:11:22.120 the the genius of other people, you know, people I've 0:11:22.160 --> 0:11:25.840 worked with, people who've influenced me, people who have seemed 0:11:25.840 --> 0:11:29.240 to be you know, just based on my own down 0:11:29.280 --> 0:11:31.840 opinion on myself, were just so much high, you know, 0:11:32.280 --> 0:11:34.480 at a higher level of something that I couldn't do 0:11:34.679 --> 0:11:37.200 or whatever. I think I just had to get over 0:11:37.240 --> 0:11:40.640 that and get through it. And I think, you know, 0:11:41.080 --> 0:11:43.160 by the time i'd done assume form, i'd kind of 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:46.400 assume form. The reason I decided to make that record 0:11:46.600 --> 0:11:48.360 wasn't because I needed to make a record. It was 0:11:48.360 --> 0:11:51.240 because I needed to get away from the idea that 0:11:51.840 --> 0:11:53.840 I had to write music in a way other than 0:11:54.320 --> 0:11:58.199 under my own. And I finally got sick of waiting 0:11:58.240 --> 0:12:01.360 for other people, sick of I was working on other 0:12:01.360 --> 0:12:05.360 projects and other things, and people were wasting my time. 0:12:05.400 --> 0:12:10.360 And I realized they had a moment of realization. I'm me, 0:12:12.080 --> 0:12:14.120 I can do whatever the fuck I want. Why am 0:12:14.160 --> 0:12:19.720 I waiting? Why am I idolizing other people? Why I 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:23.120 can already do the thing, you know, do the thing 0:12:23.160 --> 0:12:27.200 that I love, like, why torture myself like that? And 0:12:28.160 --> 0:12:30.440 because you know, working with other artists is amazing, but 0:12:30.480 --> 0:12:33.360 some you know, I think at a formative time in 0:12:33.400 --> 0:12:36.640 my career, put too much weight on what some other 0:12:36.640 --> 0:12:40.720 people thought and too much kind of involvement in them. 0:12:40.800 --> 0:12:43.200 And I don't know why I expected from them. Maybe 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:45.920 I expected too much or whatever, but I think it 0:12:46.000 --> 0:12:48.240 was a reflection on where I was at the time, 0:12:48.960 --> 0:12:53.240 but it ended up throwing me really severely off course musically, 0:12:53.440 --> 0:12:56.880 and I feel like I'm finding assumed form and where 0:12:56.880 --> 0:13:00.400 I'm at now has been me finding my feet and 0:13:00.720 --> 0:13:05.600 kind of going, fuck everyone else. I'm sure about this, 0:13:06.640 --> 0:13:10.840 and I'm sure of myself and I I'm comfortable in 0:13:10.880 --> 0:13:16.679 my skin musically, and the amount of voices that are 0:13:16.720 --> 0:13:18.080 going on in the back of my head when I'm 0:13:18.120 --> 0:13:20.760 making music now, I could have not been able to 0:13:20.800 --> 0:13:24.120 count them before. I mean, it was, it was intense, 0:13:24.960 --> 0:13:28.400 and it ruined my process for a while, but now 0:13:28.600 --> 0:13:32.600 is it feels relatively quiet in there. And I think 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:37.120 it's a big part of why I made this before EP, 0:13:37.520 --> 0:13:39.679 because I wasn't thinking about, oh am I going to 0:13:39.720 --> 0:13:42.400 be judged if I sing over dance music or you know, 0:13:42.440 --> 0:13:44.679 if I combine those two worlds, and I'm not going 0:13:44.720 --> 0:13:49.280 to be you know, in my thinking part of it 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:52.120 as well. There could be some people who think this 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.840 is a bastardization of dance music, or it's a bastardization 0:13:55.840 --> 0:13:59.720 of songwriting, or it's it's you know, are the songs 0:13:59.720 --> 0:14:03.120 truck is perfect? But I don't know. The point is 0:14:03.679 --> 0:14:07.320 songs like I keep calling on this EP are kind 0:14:07.360 --> 0:14:09.959 of like the modern in a way. That's my modern 0:14:10.040 --> 0:14:13.960 dance music. Never lend share. It's a it's a weird structure, 0:14:14.760 --> 0:14:18.040 but it hits my it hits a part of me, 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:21.560 and it it seems somehow solid, even though it seems 0:14:21.600 --> 0:14:24.440 like it's just about being held together. Honestly, Breck has 0:14:24.440 --> 0:14:28.240 been such an fucking journey to that feeling, and it's 0:14:28.320 --> 0:14:29.760 nice to be able to say that to you. Yes, 0:14:29.840 --> 0:14:34.640 I appreciate it. Let's listen to that song. We'll be 0:14:34.640 --> 0:14:37.160 back with more of James Blake's conversation with Rick Rubin 0:14:37.440 --> 0:14:44.120 after a quick break. We're back with Rick Rubin and 0:14:44.240 --> 0:14:49.120 James Blake. Was the household you grew up in musical Yeah, 0:14:49.160 --> 0:14:52.320 I mean my dad is a musician and he was 0:14:52.360 --> 0:14:54.880 always playing music, and you know, my mum and him, 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.400 it was, you know, singing in the car and doing 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.560 three part harmonies in the car. Are on the way 0:15:00.600 --> 0:15:02.920 to like going on holiday and stuff like that. So 0:15:02.960 --> 0:15:04.920 because we would drive to holiday, I mean we'd go 0:15:04.960 --> 0:15:09.480 on holiday too, you know, Wales or the beach, and 0:15:09.480 --> 0:15:12.920 I want to say the beach. It's really just a 0:15:13.000 --> 0:15:16.680 kind of a gallery of rocks in England, but that's 0:15:16.720 --> 0:15:19.800 what we call the beach. So we're on the way down, 0:15:20.240 --> 0:15:22.680 we'd go camping in Pembrokeshire or something. I actually saw 0:15:22.720 --> 0:15:25.680 a bunch of like UFOs. There's the thing called the 0:15:25.680 --> 0:15:29.360 Pembrokeshire Triangle, which is a bit like the Bermuda Triangle 0:15:30.680 --> 0:15:36.560 except a lot less cool. And we went there quite 0:15:36.600 --> 0:15:39.280 a bit and we'd go camping and I sort of 0:15:39.360 --> 0:15:43.480 learned how to sing really in a way through doing that, 0:15:43.800 --> 0:15:47.040 I learned how to harmonize, especially how to slot in 0:15:47.080 --> 0:15:50.400 between two other notes, or how to you know, how 0:15:50.440 --> 0:15:52.640 to follow a top line or how you know. Those 0:15:52.680 --> 0:15:55.120 things really came from my parents. What would be the 0:15:55.120 --> 0:15:57.560 songs that he would sing in the car? God, I can't, 0:15:57.560 --> 0:16:00.440 I can't remember. Isn't she loved? I can't really, I 0:16:00.440 --> 0:16:03.200 can't remember it. Maybe Stevie Wonder songs or singing on 0:16:03.240 --> 0:16:06.600 the dock of the bay, or some Crosby stills, and 0:16:06.680 --> 0:16:08.840 Nash songs. I remember that our house was one that 0:16:08.880 --> 0:16:11.760 we used to sing a lot. And would those be 0:16:11.800 --> 0:16:13.400 the songs that would be playing in your house like 0:16:13.440 --> 0:16:15.440 that your parents? Yea, and so they'd sing it in 0:16:15.440 --> 0:16:17.600 the car on the way down or maybe it would 0:16:17.640 --> 0:16:21.520 be but happy Birthday that every year to this day, 0:16:21.880 --> 0:16:24.800 my parents will call me and sing a Happy birthday 0:16:24.880 --> 0:16:29.120 in harmony beautiful like It's just what they do. And 0:16:29.920 --> 0:16:32.560 the only drawback is that they can't have a third 0:16:32.560 --> 0:16:35.120 because otherwise I'd be singing happy birthdays myself. But that 0:16:35.760 --> 0:16:38.120 is a very cute thing that they do. And you 0:16:38.160 --> 0:16:40.360 said you started playing piano when you were six? Did 0:16:40.400 --> 0:16:46.160 you did you take formal lessons? I did lessons from Yeah. 0:16:46.200 --> 0:16:48.800 Around that age. My dad asked me if I wanted 0:16:48.840 --> 0:16:52.560 to play a guitar or piano or anything, and I said, 0:16:52.560 --> 0:16:54.560 I'll playing guitar and he was like, well I can 0:16:54.600 --> 0:16:57.080 get I can teach you that, So pick something else. 0:16:57.600 --> 0:17:00.840 And I started piano lessons and I never really look back. 0:17:01.080 --> 0:17:04.040 And also I don't think me and my dad were 0:17:04.040 --> 0:17:06.800 compatible as a student teacher relationship. I think we were 0:17:07.000 --> 0:17:10.120 better as just you know, father son. So and did 0:17:10.119 --> 0:17:13.200 you learn classical music. Yeah, I did all the grade 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.720 you know, I did grade eight or whatever, and I 0:17:15.720 --> 0:17:18.120 could have carried on and done my diploma and etc. 0:17:18.480 --> 0:17:21.000 But I didn't. I just sort of ended with that 0:17:21.080 --> 0:17:25.360 and said said goodbye to the academic side of music 0:17:25.400 --> 0:17:27.800 because I just wasn't that interested. But it did give 0:17:27.840 --> 0:17:31.240 me a great backbone. But you know, and I wasn't 0:17:31.280 --> 0:17:33.960 very good sight reader. So if you don't develop sit 0:17:34.040 --> 0:17:39.440 reading very well, then it's hard to want to approach 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:43.000 a new piece of classical music with sheet music because 0:17:44.320 --> 0:17:47.600 the journey to getting to just playing some fucking notes 0:17:47.720 --> 0:17:50.480 is so hard if you're not good at that that 0:17:50.560 --> 0:17:52.439 I gave up and I just wanted to improvise. And 0:17:52.480 --> 0:17:54.800 the whole time I'd just been learning to improvise myself. 0:17:54.880 --> 0:17:59.399 So it would go, James, do your practice, I go 0:17:59.480 --> 0:18:02.800 downstair play for you know, I try and learn this 0:18:02.840 --> 0:18:05.800 piece for I don't know, fifteen minutes and I give up, 0:18:05.840 --> 0:18:08.879 and then I just improvise for forty five minutes. And 0:18:08.920 --> 0:18:11.080 so they could see that I was just way more 0:18:11.160 --> 0:18:15.960 inclined and way more excited about improvising. And that's kind 0:18:15.960 --> 0:18:18.200 of what I've based my career on, really, is improvising 0:18:18.240 --> 0:18:22.320 I've always just improvised and then edited. Would you always 0:18:22.400 --> 0:18:27.000 improvise solo? Or might you put on a piece of 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:30.639 music and play along and improvise? There was this funny, 0:18:30.640 --> 0:18:34.080 embarrassing moment I was always I was playing with these 0:18:34.160 --> 0:18:38.040 kids up the street. We were playing tennis regularly, and 0:18:38.160 --> 0:18:41.720 I became friends with one of them, and we lived 0:18:41.880 --> 0:18:44.840 four doors down from them, and so I could see 0:18:44.880 --> 0:18:47.640 their garden because we live in these like semi detached 0:18:48.000 --> 0:18:52.040 whatever houses and terraced houses in England. So from my 0:18:52.080 --> 0:18:56.199 bedroom I could see over the fences and he was 0:18:56.200 --> 0:18:59.760 in his garden. I remember I was playing. I would 0:18:59.760 --> 0:19:03.200 play records every night, so I'd come home from school 0:19:03.200 --> 0:19:06.560 and I just set up, I put a CD on 0:19:06.600 --> 0:19:08.560 and I just played piano and sing to the records 0:19:08.560 --> 0:19:10.560 with a mic. This was by the time I was 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:17.480 like fourteen fifteen, and I think I was playing like 0:19:17.520 --> 0:19:20.160 I was playing records that kids my age thought were 0:19:20.280 --> 0:19:24.520 really sad, that as in, were really on completely. Uncle. 0:19:25.480 --> 0:19:32.000 What's the songs? Amazing song, Whitney Houston song, children a 0:19:32.280 --> 0:19:37.920 Future two some. We let them do that song. Unbelievable song. 0:19:37.960 --> 0:19:40.880 But anyway, so I'm just I'm belting this song at 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.320 the top of my voice, playing like an electronic like 0:19:44.440 --> 0:19:51.280 eighties roads type sound like MIDI roads, and then I 0:19:51.440 --> 0:19:54.600 hear a bunch of kids laughing and they're going I 0:19:54.600 --> 0:19:56.480 can't remember what they were saying, but they were basically 0:19:56.520 --> 0:20:00.679 heckling me from four like houses away. And it was 0:20:00.920 --> 0:20:03.560 honestly one of the most embarrassing moments of my whole 0:20:03.720 --> 0:20:06.520 like one of the more embarrassing moments, because I remember 0:20:06.600 --> 0:20:09.000 that was my whole friend one of my whole friendship 0:20:09.040 --> 0:20:12.680 groups were there, and I was like crippled after that 0:20:12.720 --> 0:20:15.960 because I was just like this other people see this 0:20:16.000 --> 0:20:20.440 as a as a really effeminate and you know, like 0:20:20.600 --> 0:20:25.560 effeminate and a sad, lonely thing to do. They look 0:20:25.600 --> 0:20:29.280 at me as in some way kind of a weird, 0:20:29.320 --> 0:20:32.679 weirdough for like just wanting to do this, and also 0:20:33.000 --> 0:20:38.160 potentially there were homophobic undertones to like their abuse the heckling. 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:41.560 I was just like, this is this is crazy, this 0:20:41.600 --> 0:20:44.199 is the thing I love doing. How can I be 0:20:45.080 --> 0:20:50.320 firstly a man and also like them? That doesn't make sense, 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.359 you know, I can't be I can't be myself and 0:20:55.560 --> 0:21:00.879 like them, so I must be must be different and 0:21:00.920 --> 0:21:04.200 I and this I need to I need to keep 0:21:04.200 --> 0:21:05.919 away from other people. I need to make sure that 0:21:05.920 --> 0:21:08.320 no one sees me or hears me doing this. So 0:21:08.359 --> 0:21:10.320 it was kind of funny in a way, like when 0:21:10.359 --> 0:21:12.720 I look back on it, it's kind of a funny story. 0:21:12.720 --> 0:21:14.400 But at the same time, at the time it didn't 0:21:14.400 --> 0:21:20.040 feel funny. It felt like really shameful because at the time, 0:21:20.119 --> 0:21:22.119 like I said, there was so much toxic masculinity. You know, 0:21:22.160 --> 0:21:24.760 it was all about like being sporty and being you know, 0:21:24.800 --> 0:21:26.760 and I was just this kind of kid. He wanted 0:21:26.800 --> 0:21:30.479 to sing to Whitney Houston songs in my bedroom and 0:21:30.520 --> 0:21:33.480 like Mariah Carey, I was like obsessed with music box, 0:21:34.320 --> 0:21:36.520 you know, all these singers. It was super expressive. And 0:21:37.240 --> 0:21:40.080 there's me you know, with the I mean, you know, 0:21:40.320 --> 0:21:42.760 super like Ross Geller, like with my little keyboard and 0:21:42.800 --> 0:21:45.880 my mic and like trying to and so I just, 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.800 you know, I think it started off that weird moment. 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:53.920 Weirdly probably stopped me from wanting to show my musical 0:21:53.960 --> 0:21:57.000 ability to anyone, and so I didn't really play. I 0:21:57.040 --> 0:21:59.439 remember being you know, I'd go into practice rooms and 0:21:59.400 --> 0:22:02.560 I'm just not I'd not let anyone come and hear me. 0:22:03.040 --> 0:22:04.720 I would just go in and I'd make sure no 0:22:04.720 --> 0:22:06.240 one was around, and I'd go in on my own 0:22:06.280 --> 0:22:09.000 after school, and I'd make sure no one could hear 0:22:09.040 --> 0:22:11.840 me in, and I would just express I'll just play 0:22:12.920 --> 0:22:16.720 your parents. No, not a lot. I mean I did 0:22:16.760 --> 0:22:19.080 a bit, but not a lot. I would play with 0:22:19.119 --> 0:22:22.000 them in the other room, and they would be only 0:22:22.040 --> 0:22:24.200 ones that were sort of allowed to hear me, even 0:22:24.280 --> 0:22:27.199 from the other room. But I was very ashamed, I 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.120 think looking back, I mean, I've not really ever talked 0:22:29.119 --> 0:22:32.919 about this, but I'm very ashamed of playing because I 0:22:33.000 --> 0:22:38.959 felt that it undermined my sort of ability to interface 0:22:39.000 --> 0:22:41.920 with other kids. Really weird to think that it should 0:22:41.920 --> 0:22:43.760 be something I would have felt ashamed of when I 0:22:43.800 --> 0:22:46.720 would imagine you'd have thought that it would have been 0:22:46.760 --> 0:22:49.320 something that people thought was cool, right, singing and playing. 0:22:49.480 --> 0:22:52.159 I don't know I would think that, but that's just 0:22:52.200 --> 0:22:55.560 not how people. People reacted. Yeah, I mean, anything that 0:22:55.680 --> 0:22:59.560 makes you different is any excuse too, To be honest, 0:22:59.560 --> 0:23:01.639 they probably thought I was just annoying, which I was, 0:23:02.440 --> 0:23:06.199 and the you know, the the way of actually articulating 0:23:06.240 --> 0:23:10.080 that was sad for playing the songs. But actually, yeah, 0:23:10.359 --> 0:23:12.879 I think it was a why and so maybe that 0:23:12.960 --> 0:23:17.680 even followed me into not feeling fully confident to put 0:23:17.680 --> 0:23:21.560 my music, put my voice in my music. I don't know. 0:23:21.880 --> 0:23:24.760 I mean there's lots of embarrassing moments like that that 0:23:24.840 --> 0:23:26.440 would have led to that. So it wasn't just that. 0:23:26.720 --> 0:23:29.720 But you know, if you ever, if you ever turbulent childhood, 0:23:29.720 --> 0:23:32.480