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This is 36 00:01:53,880 --> 00:01:56,760 Speaker 1: the history book, but did you know about these other facts? 37 00:01:56,880 --> 00:02:00,920 Speaker 1: Watch The Real Wild West now on Curiosity Stream with monthly, annual, 38 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:03,040 Speaker 1: and bundled plans. Find the one that works for you 39 00:02:03,120 --> 00:02:08,240 Speaker 1: at curiosity stream dot com. Welcome to the Piketon Massacre, 40 00:02:08,320 --> 00:02:12,639 Speaker 1: A production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. The only way 41 00:02:12,680 --> 00:02:16,839 Speaker 1: I can really describe it is this is orchestrated. If 42 00:02:16,840 --> 00:02:22,480 Speaker 1: you orchestrate something that goes to planning, everybody understands their 43 00:02:22,520 --> 00:02:26,359 Speaker 1: position in the orchestra. They understand what notes to hit. 44 00:02:26,760 --> 00:02:29,360 Speaker 1: They have a specific purpose and a job. They know 45 00:02:29,480 --> 00:02:35,200 Speaker 1: the area and they know the prey. They know the 46 00:02:35,320 --> 00:02:38,359 Speaker 1: nature of these individuals. Hell, they know where their homes are. 47 00:02:38,400 --> 00:02:40,880 Speaker 1: They know where security cameras are. They know what they 48 00:02:40,919 --> 00:02:43,280 Speaker 1: have to defeat to get past these and whether it 49 00:02:43,320 --> 00:02:47,760 Speaker 1: be locked timing well to to bedtime. They know all this. 50 00:02:47,960 --> 00:02:51,920 Speaker 1: That's why this is so shocking when you begin to 51 00:02:51,960 --> 00:02:54,919 Speaker 1: think about it, is the level of orchestration involved to 52 00:02:55,120 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: pull this thing off. This is the Piketon Massacre. Returned 53 00:03:00,880 --> 00:03:05,480 Speaker 1: to Pike County season two, episode four, The Houses on 54 00:03:05,600 --> 00:03:10,079 Speaker 1: Union Hill Road. I'm Courtney Armstrong, a television producer at 55 00:03:10,160 --> 00:03:13,760 Speaker 1: Katie Studios with Stephanie Lydecker and Jeff Shane. Over two 56 00:03:13,880 --> 00:03:17,600 Speaker 1: hundred investigators and police officers have contributed so far to 57 00:03:17,680 --> 00:03:21,000 Speaker 1: this ongoing investigations. Today, they say they received eight hundred 58 00:03:21,080 --> 00:03:24,600 Speaker 1: eighty three tips, conducted four hundred sixty five interviews, did 59 00:03:24,639 --> 00:03:28,600 Speaker 1: thirty eight search horrens and sixty cyber extractions. Without question, 60 00:03:28,919 --> 00:03:31,839 Speaker 1: this has been by four of the longest most complex 61 00:03:32,280 --> 00:03:36,320 Speaker 1: and labor intensive investigation the Ohio Attorney General's Office has 62 00:03:36,400 --> 00:03:41,280 Speaker 1: ever undertaken. As an investigator, I've worked any number of 63 00:03:41,560 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: mass killings. I've never covered anything autists. That's corner distinguished 64 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:50,320 Speaker 1: professor and criminal forensics expert Joseph Morgan. It is not 65 00:03:50,600 --> 00:03:53,320 Speaker 1: a normal thing to walk into a house and seeing 66 00:03:53,360 --> 00:03:58,760 Speaker 1: blood mass It's something that borders only the apocalyptic. From 67 00:03:58,760 --> 00:04:01,440 Speaker 1: the outset the year magnet of the case post huge 68 00:04:01,440 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: investigative hurdles for the Pike County Sheriff's Office. Pike County, 69 00:04:05,120 --> 00:04:07,600 Speaker 1: it's a rural county. Of course, they don't have a 70 00:04:07,680 --> 00:04:09,400 Speaker 1: lot of money. It's not a judgment, it's just a 71 00:04:09,480 --> 00:04:12,720 Speaker 1: reality of them. When you begin to think about those 72 00:04:12,840 --> 00:04:17,600 Speaker 1: detectives that were from this little area there for Pike, 73 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 1: you know, from Pike County Shaff's apartment, it's something they'd 74 00:04:20,600 --> 00:04:24,000 Speaker 1: never been born witness too. It leads to limitations in 75 00:04:24,040 --> 00:04:29,720 Speaker 1: your ability to processing. So it is a herculean undertaking 76 00:04:30,000 --> 00:04:33,440 Speaker 1: for for these investigators, and less than a month into 77 00:04:33,480 --> 00:04:36,800 Speaker 1: the investigation, authorities made would seem to many like an 78 00:04:36,880 --> 00:04:40,040 Speaker 1: unusual decision. Work has already begun to move the homes 79 00:04:40,080 --> 00:04:42,679 Speaker 1: where eight members of the Rodent family were found shot 80 00:04:42,720 --> 00:04:45,280 Speaker 1: to death last month in Pike County, Ohio. The judge 81 00:04:45,279 --> 00:04:48,240 Speaker 1: has authorized his people to load the four mobile homes 82 00:04:48,360 --> 00:04:50,679 Speaker 1: and transport them about four and a half miles north 83 00:04:50,720 --> 00:04:53,599 Speaker 1: to the investigation command center in Waverley to preserve the 84 00:04:53,640 --> 00:04:57,120 Speaker 1: crime scenes. Well, we talked with Joseph Morgan. We looked 85 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:00,000 Speaker 1: over aerial photos of the crime scenes before the mobile 86 00:05:00,080 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 1: homes were removed. They're all we have to go on 87 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,120 Speaker 1: as no crime scene photos have been released. There's a 88 00:05:06,160 --> 00:05:09,279 Speaker 1: mock up showing the placement of the properties on our Instagram. 89 00:05:09,440 --> 00:05:11,960 Speaker 1: The first few images were of the property where Chris 90 00:05:12,000 --> 00:05:16,160 Speaker 1: Senior and Frankie Roden's trailers were located. Jeff got Morgan's 91 00:05:16,200 --> 00:05:19,800 Speaker 1: thoughts on Pike County's relocation strategy. Looking at these aerial 92 00:05:19,800 --> 00:05:22,480 Speaker 1: photos while we're talking about it. What really struck me 93 00:05:23,000 --> 00:05:25,880 Speaker 1: They lived in trailers, but these look more like homes 94 00:05:25,920 --> 00:05:28,719 Speaker 1: that are in the ground that aren't going anywhere. To me, 95 00:05:28,880 --> 00:05:31,000 Speaker 1: that like the crime scene is the most important part, 96 00:05:31,040 --> 00:05:33,240 Speaker 1: and moving them like that seems like this was that 97 00:05:33,240 --> 00:05:36,080 Speaker 1: would not be so easy. After the termination of this 98 00:05:36,120 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: case and when it's finally these cases are all adjudicated, 99 00:05:39,960 --> 00:05:41,760 Speaker 1: I'm going to want to study this from a crime 100 00:05:41,800 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: scene perspective because I want to learn how they did this. 101 00:05:44,760 --> 00:05:47,760 Speaker 1: I want to teach this because if they did it effectively, 102 00:05:48,320 --> 00:05:51,120 Speaker 1: it's something that somebody could write an academic paper on. 103 00:05:51,279 --> 00:05:54,039 Speaker 1: I mean, it's that big a deal. If you look 104 00:05:54,040 --> 00:05:57,240 Speaker 1: at this image, you would have to detach that mobile 105 00:05:57,279 --> 00:06:02,520 Speaker 1: home completely, and it's probably a foundational structure, so it's 106 00:06:02,839 --> 00:06:06,680 Speaker 1: it's at least has a cinder block foundation that has 107 00:06:06,760 --> 00:06:10,280 Speaker 1: built around the things that they can build a stick, 108 00:06:10,320 --> 00:06:12,560 Speaker 1: build a structure around it, and then attach it to 109 00:06:12,600 --> 00:06:17,960 Speaker 1: the mobile home. Just the sheer logistics of detaching this 110 00:06:18,120 --> 00:06:21,760 Speaker 1: thing from the ground. I've certainly, you know, never worked 111 00:06:21,760 --> 00:06:26,279 Speaker 1: a case that involved multiple mobile homes that where people 112 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:31,279 Speaker 1: had been in dwelling for years, that are plumbed and 113 00:06:31,400 --> 00:06:35,080 Speaker 1: have electricity run to them and have foundations, and that 114 00:06:35,080 --> 00:06:38,480 Speaker 1: they're just lifted up off the ground and taken from there. 115 00:06:38,839 --> 00:06:42,400 Speaker 1: This is a monumental task. In order facilitate this, you've 116 00:06:42,400 --> 00:06:44,120 Speaker 1: got to make sure that nothing is going to be 117 00:06:44,200 --> 00:06:49,400 Speaker 1: disrupted in transit, because everything is relative. It's relative. There's 118 00:06:49,680 --> 00:06:56,000 Speaker 1: distance relationships, there's time relationships. Because things degrade, they change. 119 00:06:56,440 --> 00:06:59,839 Speaker 1: We've got bullet holes. Well, this is not like going 120 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: to a static home. It's moving back and forth as 121 00:07:03,600 --> 00:07:06,760 Speaker 1: it's kind of going down the road. So it's shifting. Well, 122 00:07:07,080 --> 00:07:10,600 Speaker 1: what if it shifts just a few millimeters relative to 123 00:07:11,560 --> 00:07:14,400 Speaker 1: if you're trying to pull trajectories on these bullets. So 124 00:07:14,560 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: to that end, it really gives you pause to think, 125 00:07:18,800 --> 00:07:20,520 Speaker 1: why was it that you wanted to move it from 126 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:25,560 Speaker 1: this location by any measure. Investigating the Rodent murders was 127 00:07:25,600 --> 00:07:29,280 Speaker 1: a massive undertaking. Eight bodies spread out across four bloody 128 00:07:29,320 --> 00:07:32,920 Speaker 1: crime scenes, and soon after the victims were found, Ohio 129 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:36,280 Speaker 1: Bureau of Criminal Investigation and FBI agents were called in 130 00:07:36,320 --> 00:07:39,720 Speaker 1: to help lead the charge. But according to Joseph Morgan, 131 00:07:39,880 --> 00:07:42,920 Speaker 1: before the Rodent's mobile homes were moved, it was imperative 132 00:07:42,920 --> 00:07:46,840 Speaker 1: that authorities analyze the scenes in their original states, viewing 133 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,480 Speaker 1: that body in the context of the environment in which 134 00:07:49,480 --> 00:07:52,240 Speaker 1: it is found. That's where the tale is told at 135 00:07:52,240 --> 00:07:55,800 Speaker 1: that point, and you have to allow the body to 136 00:07:55,840 --> 00:07:58,760 Speaker 1: tell you that story. Maybe the person was face down, 137 00:07:58,920 --> 00:08:01,320 Speaker 1: so'll face down in bed. They're in a prominent position. 138 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 1: Someone walked up behind them, maybe when they were unaware, 139 00:08:04,960 --> 00:08:07,400 Speaker 1: maybe they were sleeping in a close range, they put 140 00:08:07,400 --> 00:08:09,960 Speaker 1: a single round into the back of their head. Well, 141 00:08:10,000 --> 00:08:12,880 Speaker 1: I don't want to move or manipulate the body until 142 00:08:12,880 --> 00:08:15,560 Speaker 1: it's time to remove it from the scene, after it's 143 00:08:15,600 --> 00:08:21,560 Speaker 1: been measured and examined for things like postmortem changes and 144 00:08:21,840 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 1: documented photographically. I don't want to change the body at all. 145 00:08:26,360 --> 00:08:29,040 Speaker 1: I want to see what the body is telling the current. 146 00:08:30,800 --> 00:08:33,640 Speaker 1: The body is the biggest piece of evidence that you have, 147 00:08:33,840 --> 00:08:37,640 Speaker 1: because that is, obviously, in this case, the target of 148 00:08:37,640 --> 00:08:40,560 Speaker 1: what the individuals were striving for. That's where the most 149 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,559 Speaker 1: forces brought to bear. That's where the most violence takes place. 150 00:08:43,679 --> 00:08:45,839 Speaker 1: That's where you have the most transference. It's going to 151 00:08:45,920 --> 00:08:49,040 Speaker 1: take place from one object to the body, or from 152 00:08:49,120 --> 00:08:53,560 Speaker 1: one body to another body. The violence perpetrated by the 153 00:08:53,600 --> 00:08:56,559 Speaker 1: alleged assailants, the Wagners in the road In case was 154 00:08:56,640 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: unusually brutal. Thirty two gunshot wounds between the eight victims, 155 00:09:01,240 --> 00:09:04,079 Speaker 1: all but one shot in the head, and the evidence 156 00:09:04,120 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: collected on the scene and in the lab will all 157 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:09,319 Speaker 1: contribute to chronicling what transpired on the night of April 158 00:09:09,320 --> 00:09:13,440 Speaker 1: twenty first, twenty sixteen. In light of Jake Wagner's plea deal, 159 00:09:13,679 --> 00:09:16,640 Speaker 1: this story will be integral for the prosecution's case against 160 00:09:16,679 --> 00:09:20,280 Speaker 1: the other three Wagners accused in the murders. Exactly five 161 00:09:20,360 --> 00:09:23,040 Speaker 1: years after the Rodent murders in Pike County, one of 162 00:09:23,040 --> 00:09:26,080 Speaker 1: the four defendants, Jake Wagner, is pleading guilty to all 163 00:09:26,120 --> 00:09:28,959 Speaker 1: counts in exchange, he avoids the death penalty and will 164 00:09:29,000 --> 00:09:32,800 Speaker 1: serve multiple life sentences with no chance at parole. His father, mother, 165 00:09:32,840 --> 00:09:35,920 Speaker 1: and brother are similarly charged, and they've pleaded not guilty 166 00:09:36,000 --> 00:09:39,040 Speaker 1: to help them avoid a possible death sentence. Prosecutors say 167 00:09:39,080 --> 00:09:43,200 Speaker 1: that Jake will testify against them. I spoke with Joseph 168 00:09:43,200 --> 00:09:46,960 Speaker 1: Markin about how Jake Wagner's plea will impact upcoming trials. 169 00:09:47,280 --> 00:09:51,040 Speaker 1: You need to understand the larger narrative here. He's now 170 00:09:51,360 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 1: on the outside. Jake is on the outside. He's no longer, 171 00:09:54,960 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: for all intents and purposes, part of the family. He 172 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,520 Speaker 1: is going to be a state's witness at this in time. 173 00:10:00,600 --> 00:10:03,400 Speaker 1: So you're going to have defense counsel. They want to 174 00:10:03,400 --> 00:10:06,800 Speaker 1: prevent the state from validating anything that this young man 175 00:10:06,880 --> 00:10:11,280 Speaker 1: has to say. So Jake's already pled guilty, He's already 176 00:10:11,280 --> 00:10:15,560 Speaker 1: implicated his family. Why is how these murders happened important? Now? 177 00:10:16,320 --> 00:10:18,719 Speaker 1: They want to try to either put all of the 178 00:10:18,800 --> 00:10:21,920 Speaker 1: blame on him and say that our defendants had nothing 179 00:10:21,960 --> 00:10:24,400 Speaker 1: to do with this whatsoever. It's all on him. He 180 00:10:24,480 --> 00:10:27,440 Speaker 1: suddenly got a guilty conscience, had you know what we say, 181 00:10:27,679 --> 00:10:30,480 Speaker 1: come to Jesus moment and decided to roll over on everything. 182 00:10:30,520 --> 00:10:34,000 Speaker 1: And it's all him, all by himself. It doesn't matter 183 00:10:34,040 --> 00:10:37,760 Speaker 1: what we think. What's going to matter is what the 184 00:10:37,840 --> 00:10:42,120 Speaker 1: jury thinks moving forward. At the end of the day, 185 00:10:42,200 --> 00:10:44,520 Speaker 1: everybody else will be able to draw their own conclusions. 186 00:10:44,520 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: But how in the world is this going to be 187 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: presented to the jury? And you're going to need a 188 00:10:49,600 --> 00:10:54,240 Speaker 1: playbill to keep up with all of the all of 189 00:10:54,280 --> 00:10:57,360 Speaker 1: the various permutations here, because if you've got you know, 190 00:10:57,480 --> 00:11:00,959 Speaker 1: four different parties here. I'm including Jake and what he's 191 00:11:01,000 --> 00:11:04,360 Speaker 1: saying to the prosecution, you got four different parties here 192 00:11:05,240 --> 00:11:08,920 Speaker 1: that are giving you different scenarios. It's going to be 193 00:11:09,280 --> 00:11:11,560 Speaker 1: tasked to someone to try to make sense of all 194 00:11:11,600 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 1: of this, and that's someone That group of people are 195 00:11:15,200 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 1: going to be the jury. It will be explained before 196 00:11:20,040 --> 00:11:22,559 Speaker 1: the court and the people in that jury box and 197 00:11:22,640 --> 00:11:25,440 Speaker 1: before the judge. They will say, well, we know that 198 00:11:25,520 --> 00:11:29,240 Speaker 1: at this hour on the twenty first, this occurred. And 199 00:11:29,280 --> 00:11:32,480 Speaker 1: then moving forward, this is when the bodies were found. 200 00:11:32,480 --> 00:11:39,600 Speaker 1: Well what occurred between these moments? In top studying the 201 00:11:39,640 --> 00:11:42,840 Speaker 1: aerial photos of the crime scenes, Stephanie put into perspective 202 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: just how overwhelming a task it is putting the story 203 00:11:45,679 --> 00:11:48,600 Speaker 1: of the road and murders together. Just seeing these photos 204 00:11:48,600 --> 00:11:51,960 Speaker 1: now firsthand, in walking through them with you, only offers 205 00:11:52,000 --> 00:11:55,319 Speaker 1: up more questions for us. This is not a small operation. 206 00:11:55,400 --> 00:11:58,960 Speaker 1: This was huge. The volume of this case is one 207 00:11:58,960 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 1: of the most striking things for me. I think, you know, 208 00:12:01,679 --> 00:12:04,960 Speaker 1: out of every case that I cover, I don't recall 209 00:12:04,960 --> 00:12:11,160 Speaker 1: a case like this that's blood suked and it is 210 00:12:11,240 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 1: spread far and wide. There's so many pieces that have 211 00:12:14,640 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 1: to be put into place. With this, you're leap frogging 212 00:12:18,440 --> 00:12:22,560 Speaker 1: from this blood bath to another blood bath. The forensics 213 00:12:22,600 --> 00:12:28,679 Speaker 1: alone were highly complicated just from a geographic distribution standpoint. 214 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:32,439 Speaker 1: It's like a beautiful mirror, okay, that someone had hanging 215 00:12:32,480 --> 00:12:35,920 Speaker 1: on their wall, and somebody with specific intent went in 216 00:12:36,000 --> 00:12:40,960 Speaker 1: and destroyed this mirror and crashed it down into thousands 217 00:12:40,960 --> 00:12:43,120 Speaker 1: and thousands of pieces, and then it is your job 218 00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,000 Speaker 1: to make sense of these broken pieces and try to 219 00:12:46,000 --> 00:12:49,680 Speaker 1: put it back together, not necessarily to make it usable again, 220 00:12:50,440 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 1: but to try to understand what happened, what affected its destruction, 221 00:12:56,480 --> 00:13:01,280 Speaker 1: to what degree is it destroyed, what instrumentality may have 222 00:13:01,360 --> 00:13:05,400 Speaker 1: destroyed it, and what the timming was like on this 223 00:13:05,559 --> 00:13:09,680 Speaker 1: How long has this thing been destroyed. We spoke with 224 00:13:09,760 --> 00:13:12,760 Speaker 1: Joseph Morgan about the importance of timeline in a multiple 225 00:13:12,800 --> 00:13:17,480 Speaker 1: homicide case. Tomline is essential here because you know, we 226 00:13:17,880 --> 00:13:20,200 Speaker 1: just have these bits and pieces coming out about the 227 00:13:20,400 --> 00:13:22,960 Speaker 1: order of death. They're going to be really focused on 228 00:13:22,960 --> 00:13:26,240 Speaker 1: the body and the changes in the body and the 229 00:13:26,280 --> 00:13:28,880 Speaker 1: traumas the body is sustained and all those sorts of things. 230 00:13:29,679 --> 00:13:33,680 Speaker 1: I think that that's that's something that's critical. As we 231 00:13:33,720 --> 00:13:36,320 Speaker 1: studied the aerial images of the crime scenes along with 232 00:13:36,360 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: the autopsy reports, Morgan tried to piece together the chronology 233 00:13:39,920 --> 00:13:42,840 Speaker 1: for us because his body was in a more advanced 234 00:13:42,840 --> 00:13:46,560 Speaker 1: state of decomposition. It's been speculated that victim Chris Roden Senior, 235 00:13:46,720 --> 00:13:50,840 Speaker 1: was the killer's first victim, so we started by looking 236 00:13:50,880 --> 00:13:53,800 Speaker 1: at the layout of his trailer Joseph points it out 237 00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:56,040 Speaker 1: what could have been the killer's way in here he 238 00:13:56,120 --> 00:13:59,679 Speaker 1: is talking to Stephanie. They have a poored parking pad 239 00:13:59,760 --> 00:14:03,320 Speaker 1: right there, and there's like a sidewalk that extends up 240 00:14:03,360 --> 00:14:07,440 Speaker 1: to that's a ramp. Yeah, walking up into this little 241 00:14:07,520 --> 00:14:11,280 Speaker 1: walkway into the porch area and therefore into the front door. 242 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:17,160 Speaker 1: There's this entire runway, which was likely where the assailants entered. Correct. 243 00:14:17,640 --> 00:14:20,680 Speaker 1: So that brings me to this point. How many locks 244 00:14:20,720 --> 00:14:22,720 Speaker 1: would have had to have been defeated on that door 245 00:14:22,760 --> 00:14:24,800 Speaker 1: in order to gain entrance, And how can you gain 246 00:14:24,960 --> 00:14:27,720 Speaker 1: entrance to that door without making noise? But if you're 247 00:14:27,920 --> 00:14:31,000 Speaker 1: going into that porch, it also speaks to the fact 248 00:14:31,000 --> 00:14:35,680 Speaker 1: that they did have multiple trained attack dogs surveiling this area. 249 00:14:35,800 --> 00:14:38,840 Speaker 1: Why didn't those attack dogs attack because there's quite a 250 00:14:38,880 --> 00:14:40,960 Speaker 1: bit of a runway for you to get up to 251 00:14:41,000 --> 00:14:44,480 Speaker 1: that porch. And is it possible that they knocked on 252 00:14:44,480 --> 00:14:47,280 Speaker 1: the door? They knew one another, their family was very 253 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,680 Speaker 1: close or had very close bonds. Angela Wagner, was there 254 00:14:51,720 --> 00:14:54,000 Speaker 1: a woman, a mom? So wouldn't you go to the 255 00:14:54,040 --> 00:14:56,040 Speaker 1: door a little more? Even if you were at odds? 256 00:14:56,040 --> 00:14:58,960 Speaker 1: If the dads, for example, Chris Senior and maybe Billy 257 00:14:59,040 --> 00:15:02,400 Speaker 1: Wagner odds over something. We've heard this, but you know 258 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:05,280 Speaker 1: his wife is there, Angela, You're like, oh, what's happening. 259 00:15:05,320 --> 00:15:08,440 Speaker 1: You'd be more likely to open your door. It seems 260 00:15:08,480 --> 00:15:12,240 Speaker 1: implausible that they would draw them to the door. You know, 261 00:15:12,280 --> 00:15:14,880 Speaker 1: it makes me, It really makes me think, why would 262 00:15:14,880 --> 00:15:17,000 Speaker 1: they be in the bedroom and how did the perpetrators 263 00:15:17,000 --> 00:15:19,640 Speaker 1: get into the bedroom without these guys knowing it. That 264 00:15:19,680 --> 00:15:22,960 Speaker 1: tells me that maybe there was a hidden key. It 265 00:15:23,000 --> 00:15:26,360 Speaker 1: does make sense about perhaps a hidden key. Certainly, we 266 00:15:26,400 --> 00:15:29,120 Speaker 1: don't know this is fact, this is speculation, but we 267 00:15:29,240 --> 00:15:32,320 Speaker 1: do know that they were running serious surveillance on the family. 268 00:15:32,360 --> 00:15:35,320 Speaker 1: They have cameras at each of the locations in the homes, 269 00:15:35,520 --> 00:15:38,520 Speaker 1: really doing some top level surveillance on the family. And 270 00:15:38,680 --> 00:15:41,120 Speaker 1: at Jake, the youngest son, was there quite a bit 271 00:15:41,240 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: because he was sharing custody with the youngest daughter, and 272 00:15:45,640 --> 00:15:48,600 Speaker 1: for a long period of time they would TikTok between homes. 273 00:15:48,840 --> 00:15:51,560 Speaker 1: You get to know the location in the area very 274 00:15:51,680 --> 00:15:55,960 Speaker 1: very well. Joseph speculated about why Chris Senior may have 275 00:15:56,000 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: been targeted first. He apparently was identified as primary target, 276 00:16:00,960 --> 00:16:05,440 Speaker 1: or at least as a primary threat in our language, 277 00:16:05,440 --> 00:16:07,280 Speaker 1: and you hear this in the news media quite a 278 00:16:07,280 --> 00:16:09,200 Speaker 1: bit and on television shows and what not, but there 279 00:16:09,240 --> 00:16:11,920 Speaker 1: really is truly something that is referred to as overkilled. 280 00:16:12,320 --> 00:16:15,600 Speaker 1: You know, in Chris Senior's case, he was shot nine times. 281 00:16:16,080 --> 00:16:19,120 Speaker 1: What do you make of the brutality of that? It 282 00:16:19,240 --> 00:16:22,000 Speaker 1: kind of begs that question, Well, either you view that 283 00:16:22,080 --> 00:16:24,880 Speaker 1: person as a threat, maybe you see that they're going 284 00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:27,400 Speaker 1: to charge you, maybe you have an awareness of what 285 00:16:27,480 --> 00:16:30,720 Speaker 1: their potential for violence is and that you want to 286 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:35,360 Speaker 1: prevent that. There's evidence that he attempted or reacted at 287 00:16:35,440 --> 00:16:39,200 Speaker 1: least to the point where he raised his arm. He's 288 00:16:39,280 --> 00:16:43,480 Speaker 1: taken one round in his right forum. But this is 289 00:16:43,520 --> 00:16:47,280 Speaker 1: the part that is very very curious. It says that 290 00:16:47,680 --> 00:16:51,760 Speaker 1: around passed through a door. I don't know which door. 291 00:16:51,840 --> 00:16:54,120 Speaker 1: He was in a bedroom, maybe it was the door 292 00:16:54,160 --> 00:16:56,880 Speaker 1: to his bedroom, or maybe he was hiding behind the door. 293 00:16:57,360 --> 00:17:01,000 Speaker 1: But then it goes on to say that at that 294 00:17:01,280 --> 00:17:05,679 Speaker 1: round in turn passed into his body. So you know, 295 00:17:06,160 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: we're learning, just in the sequencing with the Senior among 296 00:17:13,920 --> 00:17:16,840 Speaker 1: the road and Clan, that there was a lot of 297 00:17:17,040 --> 00:17:22,600 Speaker 1: firepower that was essentially directed toward him. You know, he 298 00:17:22,640 --> 00:17:27,679 Speaker 1: resided in the trailer was Gary. So we can surmise 299 00:17:27,960 --> 00:17:33,360 Speaker 1: that if Chris Senior was first, then Gary would have 300 00:17:33,400 --> 00:17:36,320 Speaker 1: had to have been second because they occupied the same 301 00:17:36,400 --> 00:17:38,280 Speaker 1: essentially the same space, you know, I guess they have 302 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:43,639 Speaker 1: separate bedrooms. But Gary didn't receive the same amount of 303 00:17:43,760 --> 00:17:46,399 Speaker 1: tention that Chris Senior. He was only shot three times, 304 00:17:46,440 --> 00:17:50,439 Speaker 1: but these three gunshot ones he sustained. Two were to 305 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:53,639 Speaker 1: the head, and it's kind of non specific in the descriptor, 306 00:17:54,440 --> 00:17:56,919 Speaker 1: but we know that one was in the face. And 307 00:17:56,960 --> 00:17:59,480 Speaker 1: this is kind of a theme that that you see 308 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:03,399 Speaker 1: running through the nature of all of these killings. And 309 00:18:03,480 --> 00:18:08,400 Speaker 1: I found that kind of interesting because anytime someone has 310 00:18:08,440 --> 00:18:12,720 Speaker 1: shot an individual in the face from a profile standpoint, 311 00:18:12,720 --> 00:18:16,120 Speaker 1: that gives you the attitude that the individual is looking 312 00:18:16,160 --> 00:18:25,000 Speaker 1: at down at the shooter when they're fired upon. We're 313 00:18:25,040 --> 00:18:27,280 Speaker 1: going to take a quick break here, we'll be back 314 00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:34,000 Speaker 1: in a moment. 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That's code 364 00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,360 Speaker 1: iHeart fifty when you sign up at une st dot 365 00:21:24,440 --> 00:21:27,720 Speaker 1: coo for a fifty dollar bonus. See terms and conditions 366 00:21:27,760 --> 00:21:34,840 Speaker 1: at UNEs dot coo. I'm Katie Lows. I am an actor, 367 00:21:34,840 --> 00:21:38,760 Speaker 1: a podcast host, a mom, and an honestly very tired 368 00:21:38,800 --> 00:21:41,320 Speaker 1: most of the time. And I'm Adam Shapiro, an actor, 369 00:21:41,359 --> 00:21:44,240 Speaker 1: a pretzel maker, a dad, and Katie's husband. And we're 370 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:47,240 Speaker 1: so excited because we're the new hosts of Chasing Sleep, 371 00:21:47,359 --> 00:21:50,879 Speaker 1: the production of Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with 372 00:21:50,960 --> 00:21:54,680 Speaker 1: Mattress Firm. Sleep affects your physical and mental performance, your 373 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:58,399 Speaker 1: family dynamics, and your quality of life as you grow older. 374 00:21:58,720 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 1: Sleep can even affect parenting. Sleep does change very rapidly 375 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:09,199 Speaker 1: throughout childhood. The chronotype of child will shift biologically. Teenagers 376 00:22:09,440 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 1: are not able to get enough sleep and get up 377 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:15,440 Speaker 1: at six am to go to school. That's just literally 378 00:22:15,480 --> 00:22:18,359 Speaker 1: not possible. So we have to start high schools later. 379 00:22:18,560 --> 00:22:21,160 Speaker 1: That's one of the biggest public health things we can, 380 00:22:21,160 --> 00:22:23,600 Speaker 1: as should do. Immediately, We're going to talk to the 381 00:22:23,640 --> 00:22:26,240 Speaker 1: experts who will help every day people like us explore 382 00:22:26,280 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: the mysteries behind our own sleep. So listen to Chasing 383 00:22:29,320 --> 00:22:32,119 Speaker 1: Sleep on the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, or wherever you 384 00:22:32,240 --> 00:22:43,160 Speaker 1: get your podcasts. Victims Chris Senior and Gary Roden's crime 385 00:22:43,160 --> 00:22:46,560 Speaker 1: scene potentially held a cash of clues for investigators. We 386 00:22:46,720 --> 00:22:50,840 Speaker 1: know that the scene in particular was very bloody, okay, 387 00:22:50,840 --> 00:22:54,200 Speaker 1: because we know that Chris Senior was shot multiple tim 388 00:22:54,359 --> 00:22:59,080 Speaker 1: So when we examine a scene, that is a treasure 389 00:22:59,080 --> 00:23:03,280 Speaker 1: trove of evidence collection there. If someone has tried to 390 00:23:03,320 --> 00:23:07,200 Speaker 1: clean themselves, clean their hands, washed down a weapon, maybe 391 00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,880 Speaker 1: try to repair an injury of their own, you've got 392 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:12,679 Speaker 1: evidence sitting in the drain and this is something they 393 00:23:12,680 --> 00:23:14,919 Speaker 1: would have had to have accounted for. So all of 394 00:23:14,960 --> 00:23:17,840 Speaker 1: the drain traps, everything within there would have had to 395 00:23:17,840 --> 00:23:21,280 Speaker 1: have been secured. What if something got flushed down the toilet, well, 396 00:23:21,560 --> 00:23:24,359 Speaker 1: you know, because now that's going to go into a 397 00:23:24,480 --> 00:23:28,479 Speaker 1: septic tank. Since this is so isolated, they're not going 398 00:23:28,520 --> 00:23:33,040 Speaker 1: to be on city sewer system. Logistically, it's a freaking nightmare. 399 00:23:33,240 --> 00:23:35,959 Speaker 1: I mean for a crime scene person, it is an 400 00:23:36,000 --> 00:23:38,280 Speaker 1: absolute nightmare. You have to make sure that all of 401 00:23:38,320 --> 00:23:44,399 Speaker 1: your bases are covered. Outside Chris Roden Senior's home was 402 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:48,040 Speaker 1: potentially even more evidence. Here comes the big part that 403 00:23:48,320 --> 00:23:52,879 Speaker 1: port right there, which is a point of egress. You 404 00:23:52,920 --> 00:23:55,240 Speaker 1: need to keep that in mind. That is a point 405 00:23:55,320 --> 00:23:59,280 Speaker 1: through which somebody entered this damned dwelling. Just let that 406 00:23:59,359 --> 00:24:02,800 Speaker 1: sink in for a second. That's got to be detached 407 00:24:02,800 --> 00:24:07,560 Speaker 1: and moved. Now it looks like they have a concrete 408 00:24:07,560 --> 00:24:10,840 Speaker 1: slab parking area that's actually very nice. It's got a 409 00:24:10,880 --> 00:24:14,399 Speaker 1: trailer or a red truck, a great truck and a 410 00:24:14,440 --> 00:24:17,679 Speaker 1: small car that sparked by the sidewalk, and that sidewalk 411 00:24:17,800 --> 00:24:21,959 Speaker 1: is poured concrete as well. That's all going to contain 412 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:26,919 Speaker 1: potential evidence. We know that that is an important piece 413 00:24:27,520 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: of It's almost like a footprint, right that has so 414 00:24:30,119 --> 00:24:35,679 Speaker 1: much potential DNA or blood or something that seeps into it. Yeah, 415 00:24:35,680 --> 00:24:40,040 Speaker 1: potentially blood evidence more than likely. If they trapes out 416 00:24:40,040 --> 00:24:44,480 Speaker 1: of that house, this would have required a herculean effort 417 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:50,080 Speaker 1: upon the authorities there. As we mentioned, crime scene photos 418 00:24:50,080 --> 00:24:53,120 Speaker 1: were never released. There were also very few on the 419 00:24:53,160 --> 00:24:56,360 Speaker 1: ground photos of the surrounding area because the entire road 420 00:24:56,480 --> 00:25:00,000 Speaker 1: was closed to the public. However, the aerial shots provide 421 00:24:59,800 --> 00:25:02,720 Speaker 1: val you put insight into the crime scenes. Most likely, 422 00:25:02,760 --> 00:25:04,760 Speaker 1: the killers then moved to the trailer just a few 423 00:25:04,840 --> 00:25:07,920 Speaker 1: hundred yards away, where Frankie Rodin and his fiance Hannah 424 00:25:07,920 --> 00:25:10,720 Speaker 1: Gilly were living with Frankie's toddler and the couple six 425 00:25:10,760 --> 00:25:13,520 Speaker 1: month old baby boy. I always pictured it much further 426 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,320 Speaker 1: apart from one another. It looks as though, and again 427 00:25:16,320 --> 00:25:19,680 Speaker 1: this is an aerial shot, you could on foot run 428 00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:23,920 Speaker 1: from Chris Senior's home to Frankie where he and Hannah 429 00:25:23,960 --> 00:25:28,840 Speaker 1: were sleeping. Making it up to Frankie and Hannah would 430 00:25:28,880 --> 00:25:32,240 Speaker 1: be that's no effort whatsoever. And if you've been surveilling 431 00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:36,480 Speaker 1: the area and keeping detailed notes on movements of people 432 00:25:36,480 --> 00:25:39,320 Speaker 1: and this sort of thing, it wouldn't be a problem 433 00:25:39,520 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 1: at all. In order to facilitate that, the proximity of 434 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:45,320 Speaker 1: the homes most likely forced the killers to utilize some 435 00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:50,679 Speaker 1: critical tools silencers. We know from courtroom testimony that a 436 00:25:50,720 --> 00:25:53,800 Speaker 1: homemade silencer was found at a property owned by the Wagner's. 437 00:25:54,240 --> 00:25:57,879 Speaker 1: Having silencers when these crime scenes are so close together 438 00:25:58,160 --> 00:26:00,920 Speaker 1: seems like they would have to. And it does sound 439 00:26:00,960 --> 00:26:05,240 Speaker 1: as though from what we've researched that Frankie wrote in 440 00:26:05,440 --> 00:26:08,960 Speaker 1: and his fiance Hannah Gilly, and their three year old son, 441 00:26:09,280 --> 00:26:13,440 Speaker 1: Frankie's three year old son, they were sleeping at the time. Absolutely. 442 00:26:14,119 --> 00:26:17,000 Speaker 1: And the other thing is this is not something that 443 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:18,800 Speaker 1: you would do in the dark. You want to make 444 00:26:18,800 --> 00:26:23,840 Speaker 1: sure because you're going there to specifically execute these people, 445 00:26:24,040 --> 00:26:26,400 Speaker 1: to kill them, you want to make sure that you're 446 00:26:26,400 --> 00:26:30,399 Speaker 1: going to shoot them. So unless you've got flashlights in 447 00:26:30,440 --> 00:26:33,120 Speaker 1: your hand, which they very well might have, you're gonna 448 00:26:33,119 --> 00:26:34,880 Speaker 1: flip the switch as soon as you walk through the door. 449 00:26:34,960 --> 00:26:39,000 Speaker 1: Light switch is right there. The element of surprise allowed 450 00:26:39,000 --> 00:26:42,240 Speaker 1: the killers to get with an intimate range of their victims. 451 00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:44,760 Speaker 1: A gunshot wound, you don't think about that as being intimate, 452 00:26:44,800 --> 00:26:48,159 Speaker 1: but if you start scoring headshots, particularly multiple headshots, you 453 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:52,080 Speaker 1: know that there is kind of a close approximation of 454 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 1: the perpetrator to the victim in that particular case, So 455 00:26:56,359 --> 00:26:59,560 Speaker 1: it tells a different tale. And you know what gunshot 456 00:26:59,560 --> 00:27:02,960 Speaker 1: wos to head particularly multiple ones. You want to think about, well, 457 00:27:03,000 --> 00:27:06,399 Speaker 1: where are they shot in the head? If it is 458 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:10,640 Speaker 1: an execution style to the back of the head, that's 459 00:27:10,680 --> 00:27:13,639 Speaker 1: one thing that I'm not saying that the person is 460 00:27:13,680 --> 00:27:16,240 Speaker 1: being humane that's doing it, but they want it over 461 00:27:16,280 --> 00:27:19,560 Speaker 1: with and done. It's quickly as possible. When you start 462 00:27:19,600 --> 00:27:22,399 Speaker 1: talking about shooting people in the face, this is something different, 463 00:27:22,480 --> 00:27:26,520 Speaker 1: particularly if it's multiple times. First off, the individual has 464 00:27:26,560 --> 00:27:29,920 Speaker 1: potential to visualize you as you're doing it, and you're 465 00:27:30,000 --> 00:27:35,800 Speaker 1: visualizing them. That brings it up to another level. Execution 466 00:27:35,840 --> 00:27:39,080 Speaker 1: style means from the back of the head, so you 467 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,240 Speaker 1: don't have to make eye contact with your victim, which 468 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:46,480 Speaker 1: makes sense. Yeah, that's a classic interpretation of it. When 469 00:27:46,520 --> 00:27:50,680 Speaker 1: I'm talking to somebody, a fellow death investigator or a 470 00:27:50,680 --> 00:27:53,480 Speaker 1: fellow forensic science person, if I say, yeah, it was 471 00:27:53,520 --> 00:27:57,080 Speaker 1: an execution style shooting automatically for me, and I would 472 00:27:57,080 --> 00:27:59,240 Speaker 1: assume for most of my colleagues, we're gonna think, Okay, 473 00:27:59,280 --> 00:28:02,960 Speaker 1: they're probably in the occiput, which if you put your hand, 474 00:28:03,800 --> 00:28:05,560 Speaker 1: you know, your fingers on the back side of your 475 00:28:05,600 --> 00:28:07,840 Speaker 1: head and you feel that big knot in the back 476 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,000 Speaker 1: of your skull, that's your occiput. That's where your cerebellum dwells, 477 00:28:12,040 --> 00:28:17,040 Speaker 1: where your primal brain dwells, and there's mercy. There's mercy 478 00:28:17,480 --> 00:28:20,200 Speaker 1: in docks. Put back there, you know, while there's mercy 479 00:28:20,280 --> 00:28:23,120 Speaker 1: because if you fire into that area, it's almost an 480 00:28:23,119 --> 00:28:26,960 Speaker 1: instantaneous death. But if you start shooting people all over 481 00:28:26,960 --> 00:28:29,560 Speaker 1: their body, and you do it multiple times, and particularly 482 00:28:29,560 --> 00:28:31,320 Speaker 1: if you approach them and shoot them in the face, 483 00:28:31,320 --> 00:28:37,760 Speaker 1: there's no guarantee they're dead instantly, no guarantee whatsoever. According 484 00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:40,560 Speaker 1: to Morgan, the killers then likely traveled a mile and 485 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,800 Speaker 1: a half up the road where victim's DNA, Chris Junior 486 00:28:43,880 --> 00:28:46,760 Speaker 1: and Hannah Rodin lived. You know, I can't imagine that 487 00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:50,160 Speaker 1: Dana poses the same threat level, Say, for instance, as 488 00:28:50,240 --> 00:28:54,280 Speaker 1: Chris Senior. Chris pretty robust kind of guy, big guy, 489 00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:58,560 Speaker 1: you know, worked outdoors with cars and whatnot. He's familiar 490 00:28:58,560 --> 00:29:01,760 Speaker 1: with weapons. I would have imagine he could pose a threat. 491 00:29:01,800 --> 00:29:05,480 Speaker 1: But this mother living in her trailer with her kids. 492 00:29:06,720 --> 00:29:11,840 Speaker 1: What threat did did she pose? Is she the focus 493 00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:15,720 Speaker 1: of a tremendous amount of anger. Well, when you combine 494 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:20,920 Speaker 1: the fact that they have committed overkill here with the 495 00:29:20,960 --> 00:29:24,240 Speaker 1: shooting of her in her skull so many times, and 496 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:27,760 Speaker 1: then they moved to shoot her in a manner in 497 00:29:27,800 --> 00:29:31,840 Speaker 1: which could potentially disfigure her. This seems to me almost 498 00:29:32,280 --> 00:29:36,680 Speaker 1: a messaging that sent out the people that are perpetrating 499 00:29:36,760 --> 00:29:40,479 Speaker 1: as have purpose to them. We have the other Hannah. Now, 500 00:29:40,560 --> 00:29:43,720 Speaker 1: what kind of person could stand over a young woman 501 00:29:44,000 --> 00:29:47,440 Speaker 1: and fire around into her face while staring at her 502 00:29:47,880 --> 00:29:52,080 Speaker 1: and her baby? You're visualizing this. This is not something 503 00:29:52,120 --> 00:29:56,320 Speaker 1: that's done in abstract. You're not a long long distance away. 504 00:29:56,400 --> 00:29:59,640 Speaker 1: You're up close and personal in these rooms, are there? 505 00:29:59,640 --> 00:30:01,760 Speaker 1: You know? It's not the taj from the hall here. 506 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: I mean, it's they're not rural tiny, but they're pretty small. Um, 507 00:30:06,520 --> 00:30:08,480 Speaker 1: you're gonna be on top of her when you're doing this. 508 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,640 Speaker 1: Jeff wondered how the brutal precision executed by the killers 509 00:30:13,640 --> 00:30:16,560 Speaker 1: could play into the prosecution's case. Does that come into 510 00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:20,160 Speaker 1: play that they shoot a mother holding her baby twice 511 00:30:20,160 --> 00:30:22,040 Speaker 1: in the head? Does that make it worse than shooting 512 00:30:22,040 --> 00:30:25,600 Speaker 1: her once? This is a prosecutor's dream if you're talking 513 00:30:25,600 --> 00:30:30,800 Speaker 1: about a narrative, all right. It takes such savagery on 514 00:30:30,840 --> 00:30:34,000 Speaker 1: the part of an individual to do this. You look 515 00:30:34,040 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 1: at Chris Junior, who is in dwelling this place and 516 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:42,160 Speaker 1: he's he's shot. It's kind of non specific. We do 517 00:30:42,320 --> 00:30:46,960 Speaker 1: know that that he was actually shot multiple times in 518 00:30:47,000 --> 00:30:51,000 Speaker 1: the head. And he's a sixteen year old kid. You 519 00:30:51,040 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: know what, what what threat does does he pose? Why? 520 00:30:54,800 --> 00:30:56,840 Speaker 1: Why would you take the life of a sixteen year 521 00:30:56,840 --> 00:31:01,320 Speaker 1: old boy? There? I don't I don't understand that. I 522 00:31:01,360 --> 00:31:04,160 Speaker 1: think at the end of the day, when we analyze 523 00:31:04,280 --> 00:31:08,200 Speaker 1: all of these these shootings, there's a thread. Obviously I've 524 00:31:08,200 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: talked about about the overkill that goes into all of this, 525 00:31:11,840 --> 00:31:15,920 Speaker 1: but there's a proximal issue here too, that is that 526 00:31:16,640 --> 00:31:24,800 Speaker 1: you're getting into the space of these victims. Then it's 527 00:31:24,840 --> 00:31:28,320 Speaker 1: likely the killers targeted their last victim, Kenneth Roden, who 528 00:31:28,400 --> 00:31:31,080 Speaker 1: is sleeping a trailer a few miles away on Left 529 00:31:31,080 --> 00:31:35,000 Speaker 1: Fork Road. However, Kenneth's crime scene was strikingly different from 530 00:31:35,040 --> 00:31:37,560 Speaker 1: the other Roaden victims. This is the end the big 531 00:31:37,600 --> 00:31:40,360 Speaker 1: Finaley and they shoot this guy in the eye. Now 532 00:31:40,520 --> 00:31:42,960 Speaker 1: you know this idea that he is shot in the 533 00:31:42,960 --> 00:31:45,920 Speaker 1: eye again, this goes to another level of violence here. 534 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: Literally did he see this coming at that moment in time? 535 00:31:49,560 --> 00:31:52,160 Speaker 1: And then to kind of you know, put the ice 536 00:31:52,400 --> 00:31:56,080 Speaker 1: on the cake. You you know, you drop dollar bills around. Again, 537 00:31:56,160 --> 00:31:58,320 Speaker 1: that goes to motive. You're you're trying to put the 538 00:31:58,400 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 1: police on the scent that this is something other than 539 00:32:01,960 --> 00:32:06,800 Speaker 1: what it appears. I've worked cartel related homicides before. Yeah, 540 00:32:06,840 --> 00:32:10,120 Speaker 1: there's messaging that goes along with this sort of thing. 541 00:32:10,640 --> 00:32:14,200 Speaker 1: But again, is that what they were going for. This 542 00:32:14,280 --> 00:32:17,160 Speaker 1: is a different type of staging. You're not trying to 543 00:32:17,440 --> 00:32:21,280 Speaker 1: mitigate the idea that it's something other than a homicide. 544 00:32:21,320 --> 00:32:24,640 Speaker 1: It's still a homicide. You're trying. This goes to the 545 00:32:24,720 --> 00:32:27,560 Speaker 1: motivation behind the home side to put them off sent 546 00:32:28,080 --> 00:32:32,040 Speaker 1: And that's a very very interesting narrative when you begin 547 00:32:32,120 --> 00:32:34,640 Speaker 1: to kind of think about it. I believe in your 548 00:32:34,760 --> 00:32:39,080 Speaker 1: professional experience, have you ever heard of a family that 549 00:32:39,280 --> 00:32:43,880 Speaker 1: operates as a foursome two different locations in this manner. 550 00:32:44,000 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 1: That's pretty uncommon. I would assume never did work into 551 00:32:48,560 --> 00:32:53,080 Speaker 1: major metropolitan areas as corner medical examiner investigator. I've never 552 00:32:53,160 --> 00:32:57,200 Speaker 1: encountered it. The sheer barbarity of the rodent murders will 553 00:32:57,200 --> 00:33:00,360 Speaker 1: be a critical part of the story, but one in 554 00:33:00,360 --> 00:33:03,440 Speaker 1: particular will be crucial to convey to the jury. Jeff 555 00:33:03,480 --> 00:33:06,280 Speaker 1: asked Joseph Morgan about it I'm just curious, like how 556 00:33:06,440 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: the prosecutors we're going to want to talk about the 557 00:33:09,360 --> 00:33:11,120 Speaker 1: question of whether or not the victims were aware or 558 00:33:11,160 --> 00:33:13,000 Speaker 1: their life was going to end, and how that might 559 00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,720 Speaker 1: impact the jury. It's going to be critical for the 560 00:33:17,840 --> 00:33:21,320 Speaker 1: prosecutor to be able to take the information that the 561 00:33:21,360 --> 00:33:25,720 Speaker 1: investigators have developed in the field and you know, working 562 00:33:25,720 --> 00:33:30,480 Speaker 1: these scenes in particular the time, these little markers and 563 00:33:30,600 --> 00:33:34,160 Speaker 1: time along the way, how well were they able to 564 00:33:34,280 --> 00:33:38,840 Speaker 1: document the actions that took place within the environment. If 565 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,160 Speaker 1: they can get that information out into open court, then 566 00:33:42,200 --> 00:33:44,800 Speaker 1: they'll begin to talk about I can envision a closing 567 00:33:44,880 --> 00:33:47,680 Speaker 1: statement in particular, prosecutor would stand up there and say, 568 00:33:48,480 --> 00:33:52,520 Speaker 1: they took their time. We have them document as being 569 00:33:52,640 --> 00:33:55,320 Speaker 1: in this location where this particular time, and you as 570 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,720 Speaker 1: a jury have to consider this, what were they saying, 571 00:33:58,760 --> 00:34:00,880 Speaker 1: what were they doing while they were in there? Did 572 00:34:00,920 --> 00:34:04,520 Speaker 1: these people know that they were about to die? And 573 00:34:04,560 --> 00:34:08,359 Speaker 1: of course the prosecutor, it's their job to put, as 574 00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:10,360 Speaker 1: horrible as it is, put the jury members in the 575 00:34:10,360 --> 00:34:13,760 Speaker 1: place of the victims to help them understand, because everybody 576 00:34:13,800 --> 00:34:15,960 Speaker 1: has been in fear of their life, the end of 577 00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:17,880 Speaker 1: their life at some point in time, So you have 578 00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,600 Speaker 1: to make that almost You can't do it, but you 579 00:34:20,680 --> 00:34:23,879 Speaker 1: want to make it as almost tactile as you possibly can. 580 00:34:24,239 --> 00:34:27,320 Speaker 1: So the people in the jury, they feel that stirring 581 00:34:27,360 --> 00:34:30,239 Speaker 1: within their soul where they understand, Okay, these people were 582 00:34:30,239 --> 00:34:32,160 Speaker 1: at a critical mask and they knew that it was 583 00:34:32,200 --> 00:34:36,000 Speaker 1: about to happen. What would I do in that moment, 584 00:34:36,040 --> 00:34:40,320 Speaker 1: tom where I realized that my life was actually coming 585 00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:48,360 Speaker 1: to an end. Let's stop here for another quick break. 586 00:34:48,719 --> 00:34:55,840 Speaker 1: We'll be back in a moment. At times, it is 587 00:34:55,880 --> 00:35:00,640 Speaker 1: hard to not be discouraged climate change, abortion bands, rising inequality, 588 00:35:00,719 --> 00:35:05,120 Speaker 1: attacks on the LGTBQ plus community. That's why you march, vote, 589 00:35:05,320 --> 00:35:07,800 Speaker 1: write your congress person, and try to do your part. 590 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,280 Speaker 1: One small thing you can do is switch your mobile 591 00:35:10,280 --> 00:35:14,279 Speaker 1: phone to Credo Mobile. 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And right now, when you switch your 601 00:35:40,840 --> 00:35:42,719 Speaker 1: phone to Credo, you can get a two hundred and 602 00:35:42,719 --> 00:35:45,400 Speaker 1: fifty dollars prepaid card and they'll donate fifty dollars to 603 00:35:45,400 --> 00:35:48,880 Speaker 1: the Transgender Law Center when you use the Code podcast fifty. 604 00:35:49,080 --> 00:35:52,600 Speaker 1: Together we can make a difference. That's credomobile dot com 605 00:35:52,640 --> 00:35:56,560 Speaker 1: Code Podcast fifty. He'll forget about the video game you 606 00:35:56,560 --> 00:36:02,040 Speaker 1: gave him on his birthday. Wow, Thanks Grandpa, but he'll 607 00:36:02,080 --> 00:36:04,520 Speaker 1: never forget how you invested in his future. What the 608 00:36:04,640 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 1: unst app? Wow, thanks Grandpa. Don't just give them any gift, 609 00:36:11,640 --> 00:36:15,200 Speaker 1: give them a gift that can grow with them. 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That's code I Heart fifty 619 00:36:43,920 --> 00:36:47,200 Speaker 1: when you sign up at une st dot coo for 620 00:36:47,280 --> 00:36:50,560 Speaker 1: a fifty dollars bonus. See terms and conditions at unest 621 00:36:50,640 --> 00:36:57,040 Speaker 1: dot coo. I'm Katie Lows. I am an actor, a 622 00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:01,239 Speaker 1: podcast host, a mom, and honestly very tired most of 623 00:37:01,280 --> 00:37:04,400 Speaker 1: the time. And I'm Adam Shapiro, an actor, a pretzel maker, 624 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:07,200 Speaker 1: a dad, and Katie's husband. And we're so excited because 625 00:37:07,200 --> 00:37:10,120 Speaker 1: we're the new hosts of Chasing Sleep, the production of 626 00:37:10,200 --> 00:37:14,280 Speaker 1: Ruby Studios from iHeartMedia in partnership with Mattress Firm. Sleep 627 00:37:14,280 --> 00:37:18,200 Speaker 1: affects your physical and mental performance, your family dynamics, and 628 00:37:18,320 --> 00:37:21,600 Speaker 1: your quality of life as you grow older. Sleep can 629 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,799 Speaker 1: even affect dreaming life. The dreams come to us naturally, 630 00:37:26,040 --> 00:37:29,920 Speaker 1: but we have to provide the action as individuals. So 631 00:37:29,960 --> 00:37:33,680 Speaker 1: the first question that I always ask the dreamer is 632 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:37,720 Speaker 1: how are you feeling in the dream? The maths sad, 633 00:37:37,719 --> 00:37:41,600 Speaker 1: glad or afraid. If we can narrow our emotions down 634 00:37:41,640 --> 00:37:44,000 Speaker 1: to that, then we can take some action. We're going 635 00:37:44,040 --> 00:37:46,240 Speaker 1: to talk to the experts who will help everyday people 636 00:37:46,280 --> 00:37:49,239 Speaker 1: like us explore the mysteries behind our own sleep, So 637 00:37:49,320 --> 00:37:52,400 Speaker 1: listen to Chasing Sleep on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 638 00:37:52,440 --> 00:37:57,040 Speaker 1: or wherever you get your podcasts. Curiosity Stream is the 639 00:37:57,120 --> 00:38:00,120 Speaker 1: streaming service built by and for people who want to 640 00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:04,960 Speaker 1: know more more about our world and beyond. Curiosity Stream 641 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,920 Speaker 1: has the best collection of documentary films and TV shows 642 00:38:07,960 --> 00:38:11,440 Speaker 1: about everything from the history of human migration to the 643 00:38:11,480 --> 00:38:15,719 Speaker 1: future of space travel. With thousands of titles, curiosity has 644 00:38:15,760 --> 00:38:22,360 Speaker 1: something for everyone science, wildlife, travel, human stories, culture, and 645 00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:26,560 Speaker 1: pretty much anything you're curious about. Watch Curiosity Stream on 646 00:38:26,600 --> 00:38:29,680 Speaker 1: your TV or any digital device all around the world. 647 00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:32,759 Speaker 1: Just go to curiosity stream dot com to sign up 648 00:38:32,840 --> 00:38:35,640 Speaker 1: or download the app. Now you'll have access to brand 649 00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:38,880 Speaker 1: new titles dropping every week, filled with new discoveries and 650 00:38:39,000 --> 00:38:41,320 Speaker 1: new stories that will open your eyes to the world 651 00:38:41,320 --> 00:38:44,800 Speaker 1: around us. And with monthly, annual, and bundled pricing plans, 652 00:38:44,960 --> 00:38:46,920 Speaker 1: it's easy to find one that works for you and 653 00:38:47,040 --> 00:38:50,560 Speaker 1: your budget. Go to curiosity stream dot com to satisfy 654 00:38:50,680 --> 00:39:03,680 Speaker 1: your curiosity and sign up today. I think that even 655 00:39:03,760 --> 00:39:07,040 Speaker 1: a trained assassin would find it foolhardy to go about 656 00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,640 Speaker 1: trying to kill eight people on the same evening covering 657 00:39:10,760 --> 00:39:13,560 Speaker 1: this much territory there are too many things that can 658 00:39:13,600 --> 00:39:16,960 Speaker 1: go wrong unless you have somebody watching your back. You're 659 00:39:16,960 --> 00:39:20,200 Speaker 1: going to have to have a person that potentially is 660 00:39:20,200 --> 00:39:23,520 Speaker 1: a lookout or a transporter. You're going to have to 661 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:28,840 Speaker 1: have somebody that can muscle or control the intended victims, 662 00:39:28,880 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: and then you have to have a shooter and an 663 00:39:31,320 --> 00:39:35,680 Speaker 1: ideally you would in fact need somebody that's doing overall 664 00:39:35,719 --> 00:39:40,960 Speaker 1: coordination because this logistically, it's a daunting task. I think, 665 00:39:41,680 --> 00:39:44,840 Speaker 1: to say the very least, you know in this particular case, 666 00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:49,879 Speaker 1: there are too many variables involved. But even after you plan. 667 00:39:50,560 --> 00:39:53,799 Speaker 1: Perpetrators are not crime scene investigators. They don't think like 668 00:39:53,880 --> 00:39:58,040 Speaker 1: crime scene investigators. They're so very rare most of the 669 00:39:58,040 --> 00:40:03,040 Speaker 1: cases that we work investigators. There is a huge opportunity 670 00:40:03,480 --> 00:40:05,759 Speaker 1: for these people to screw up along the way, to 671 00:40:05,840 --> 00:40:09,680 Speaker 1: leave something behind that is a direct indicator of their 672 00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:14,920 Speaker 1: involvement or at the presence when these deaths occurred, and 673 00:40:14,960 --> 00:40:18,880 Speaker 1: in this case, what was left behind included three young children. 674 00:40:19,480 --> 00:40:22,279 Speaker 1: According to Morgan, these spared lives go directly to the 675 00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:25,640 Speaker 1: heart of the presiding motive of the case, the singular 676 00:40:25,760 --> 00:40:32,800 Speaker 1: driver behind this. It has to those children. Whole value, 677 00:40:33,480 --> 00:40:35,719 Speaker 1: the attachment to the children is the driver behind this. 678 00:40:36,320 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: When you get overkilled, in my experience at least, it 679 00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,239 Speaker 1: goes to a lot of anger, it goes to a 680 00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:47,719 Speaker 1: lot of passion. And you'll see it in domestics. You 681 00:40:47,800 --> 00:40:50,160 Speaker 1: go to all this trouble, but yet you leave these 682 00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:53,160 Speaker 1: three babies alive, and you have to you know, you 683 00:40:53,239 --> 00:40:57,279 Speaker 1: begin to kind of question this, and it has an investigator. 684 00:40:57,280 --> 00:41:00,960 Speaker 1: It takes you down a specific direction. Who attach value 685 00:41:00,960 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: to these children? Who would want to see them continue 686 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,759 Speaker 1: to live and still exist among the land of the 687 00:41:07,840 --> 00:41:12,080 Speaker 1: living up there and Pike can what accused killers Billy 688 00:41:12,200 --> 00:41:15,640 Speaker 1: Angela and George Wagner had to trial. Prosecutors will paint 689 00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:19,440 Speaker 1: them as the main characters in a gruesome, multilayered horror story. 690 00:41:19,920 --> 00:41:24,920 Speaker 1: Good prosecutors are great storytellers. That's their heartbeat. If they 691 00:41:24,920 --> 00:41:27,320 Speaker 1: are affective. They take all these little pieces of evidence, 692 00:41:27,360 --> 00:41:30,480 Speaker 1: all this stuff we've been talking about, and they tighten 693 00:41:30,560 --> 00:41:33,080 Speaker 1: that thing down and they walk in the courtroom and 694 00:41:33,120 --> 00:41:36,400 Speaker 1: they start talking about mamas, and they start talking about babies, 695 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:40,480 Speaker 1: and they start talking about these familial ties. And it 696 00:41:40,480 --> 00:41:43,600 Speaker 1: will be powerful in court. It will be very powerful. 697 00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:49,040 Speaker 1: And I can almost see it now, envisioning right now, 698 00:41:49,960 --> 00:41:53,520 Speaker 1: when he starts talking about this, and you can see 699 00:41:53,520 --> 00:41:55,759 Speaker 1: that jury there will be a slow turn of their 700 00:41:55,800 --> 00:42:00,160 Speaker 1: heads toward that defendant's table, no matter who's on all 701 00:42:00,239 --> 00:42:02,600 Speaker 1: that particular tom because they will talk about Mama, and 702 00:42:02,640 --> 00:42:04,880 Speaker 1: they will talk about those babies, and they're going to 703 00:42:05,000 --> 00:42:08,239 Speaker 1: stare that individual town and they're gonna think who in 704 00:42:08,280 --> 00:42:14,200 Speaker 1: the hills in the courtroom with us right now? Well, 705 00:42:14,200 --> 00:42:17,200 Speaker 1: we wait to see if Billy Angela and George Wagner 706 00:42:17,239 --> 00:42:20,120 Speaker 1: will head to trial. There's one man intimately involved in 707 00:42:20,120 --> 00:42:22,160 Speaker 1: the road and murder case who has already seen his 708 00:42:22,239 --> 00:42:27,239 Speaker 1: day in court, Pike County Sheriff Charles Reader. After the 709 00:42:27,360 --> 00:42:30,480 Speaker 1: Road murders, he became front and center of all of 710 00:42:30,520 --> 00:42:34,880 Speaker 1: the coverage. She was giving information alongside the Ohio Attorney 711 00:42:34,880 --> 00:42:37,680 Speaker 1: General at that time. People were looking to him for 712 00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:41,840 Speaker 1: information and they wanted Reader, along with the state of Ohio, 713 00:42:41,920 --> 00:42:46,279 Speaker 1: to solve these murders. From all of the coverage that 714 00:42:46,320 --> 00:42:49,360 Speaker 1: went into Pike County in the months after these murders, 715 00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,319 Speaker 1: I mean, Charlie Reader was a central figure in that. 716 00:42:53,320 --> 00:42:56,680 Speaker 1: But Sheriff Reader had a quick fall from grace. In 717 00:42:56,760 --> 00:42:59,560 Speaker 1: June twenty nineteen, he was indicted on eight felonies and 718 00:42:59,600 --> 00:43:03,760 Speaker 1: eight miss demeanors. His charges included thefton office and tampering 719 00:43:03,800 --> 00:43:07,520 Speaker 1: with evidence. That was huge news, not only because of 720 00:43:07,520 --> 00:43:09,759 Speaker 1: his involvement in the road and murderers, but I mean, 721 00:43:09,760 --> 00:43:12,480 Speaker 1: you're talking about the sitting sheriff, the high Sheriff of 722 00:43:12,520 --> 00:43:16,680 Speaker 1: Pike County is now the subject of an investigation. Evidence 723 00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: of misconduct, evidence of corruption by a politician. You're going, man, 724 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,600 Speaker 1: I don't know what may happen with this. On March 725 00:43:26,640 --> 00:43:30,000 Speaker 1: twenty four, twenty one, Sheriff Fraterer appeared in court to 726 00:43:30,040 --> 00:43:34,080 Speaker 1: face the charges leveled against him. A guilty verdict would 727 00:43:34,080 --> 00:43:40,239 Speaker 1: have major consequences if you're a defense attorney working on 728 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:44,080 Speaker 1: this case and the sheriff, if the county gets indicted, 729 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:47,480 Speaker 1: I would think, you know, if you're a Wagner attorney, 730 00:43:48,760 --> 00:43:52,279 Speaker 1: you would look to have a field day with that. 731 00:43:52,280 --> 00:44:00,960 Speaker 1: That might be part of your defense. More on that 732 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:06,640 Speaker 1: next time. For more information on the case and relevant photos, 733 00:44:06,760 --> 00:44:11,080 Speaker 1: follow us on Instagram at Katie Underscore Studios. The Pikedon 734 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:14,440 Speaker 1: Massacre Returned to Pike County is executive produced by Stephanie 735 00:44:14,560 --> 00:44:18,040 Speaker 1: Lydecker and me Courtney Armstrong. Editing and sound designed by 736 00:44:18,040 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: executive producer Jared Aston, Additional producing by Jeff Shane, Andrew 737 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:25,960 Speaker 1: Becker and Chris Graves. The Piked and Massacre Returned to 738 00:44:25,960 --> 00:44:29,160 Speaker 1: Pike County is a production of iHeartRadio and Katie Studios. 739 00:44:29,480 --> 00:44:34,040 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, 740 00:44:34,120 --> 00:44:39,600 Speaker 1: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows. 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