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Speaker 1: Inventing Anna the Official Podcast is a production of Shondaland

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Speaker 1: Audio and partnership with I Heart Radio. Welcome to Inventing

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Speaker 1: Anna the Official Podcast, your exclusive look inside the making

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Speaker 1: of the Shonda Land series on Netflix. I'm your host,

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Speaker 1: Stacy Wilson Hunt here with you for the final episode

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Speaker 1: of our series. Today's episode features Anna Delvie's real life attorney,

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Speaker 1: Todd Spodick, who's portrayed by actor Arian Moye in the show. Todd,

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Speaker 1: who may be closer to Anna Delvie than anyone, shares

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Speaker 1: what it's been like to see his own life streaming

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Speaker 1: on Netflix. He also offers up a fascinating insider's perspective

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Speaker 1: on Anna and her legal woes that only he can.

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Speaker 1: Later in the show, I speak with Shonda Land writer

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Speaker 1: Matt Byrne, a former journalist who penned the final episode

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Speaker 1: of the series and was actually present in the courtroom

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Speaker 1: for Anna's trial in New York. He shares fascinating memories

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Speaker 1: from that experience and his final thoughts on complex story.

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Speaker 1: But first, let's hear from Todd Spodeck. Hello, Todd, how

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Speaker 1: are you so happy to have you on the podcast?

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Speaker 1: I am wonderful Stacy. Thanks for having me here. It's

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Speaker 1: a pleasure. And first and foremost, how has your life

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Speaker 1: changed since the premiere of Inventing Anna? You know, I

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Speaker 1: gotta say this whole experience has been surreal. I mean,

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Speaker 1: to have you know, a character portray you and your

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Speaker 1: wife and your kids on Netflix is just really a

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Speaker 1: very strange experience. But it's been wonderful. Man. I'm flattered.

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Speaker 1: I'm grateful to be part of it. I think the

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Speaker 1: performances are great, I think the show is great. I've

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Speaker 1: gotten a lot of attention and people have reached out,

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Speaker 1: and I'm really pleased, to be honest. Bring me back

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Speaker 1: to the first time you met Anna Delvi. It was

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Speaker 1: in your office in New York somewhere right. What were

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Speaker 1: your first impressions of this person? And now that I

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Speaker 1: know more about you, I have a feeling you were

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Speaker 1: probably not too affected by the presentation of her case

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Speaker 1: and her overall uh, let's say uniqueness. Yeah. Yeah. So

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Speaker 1: my main office where the firm is is in downtown Manhattan.

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Speaker 1: And what happened was Anna kept calling, I think on

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Speaker 1: Friday night. So Friday night she's calling NonStop. I want

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Speaker 1: to come in, I want to meet Todd, and it

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Speaker 1: wasn't I just want a lawyer, It was I want

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Speaker 1: to meet Todd and remind people who may be forgetting

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Speaker 1: us how she got your name and why she contacted you.

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Speaker 1: In particular. My understanding is she was referred to me.

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Speaker 1: She knew of some of the other trials I've done.

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Speaker 1: Obviously I did the Alec Baldwin Genevieve Sabareine trial, which

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Speaker 1: got a lot of attention years ago his stalker. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: So I think there was just that, and she was like,

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Speaker 1: I need to meet you. I need to meet you.

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Speaker 1: I had already left the office for the day, and

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Speaker 1: that Saturday, one of my close friends was moving to Chicago.

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Speaker 1: So he was having a going away party, drinks, derbs,

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Speaker 1: all that jazz, everybody together, like something really special. And

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Speaker 1: my wife and kids and I were going to visit him.

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Speaker 1: And she kept calling and I said, look, come to

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Speaker 1: my Brooklyn office. I'll meet you. So my wife and

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Speaker 1: I both took a kid, me and my son. Oh,

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Speaker 1: and it's worth mentioned that we were dressed to the

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Speaker 1: nines because we were going out to this big party,

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Speaker 1: roofed top Champaigne's were we were looking fire. We were

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Speaker 1: great well, and I think Anna would appreciate, you know,

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Speaker 1: you being dressed to the ninth threat that. Yeah, she

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Speaker 1: liked that. So I'm in the office. I set up

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Speaker 1: my son, Zachary, in a separate room and I have

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Speaker 1: him on my laptop and he's watching cartoons. Anna comes

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Speaker 1: and I go meet her. And I meet a lot

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Speaker 1: of people in my world, you know, I meet murderers

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Speaker 1: and gang members to financial crime, you know, perpetrators, to

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Speaker 1: bitcoin scammers and tax for like, I just meet a

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Speaker 1: lot of interesting people. So I'm pretty savvy when it

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Speaker 1: comes to meeting someone, and I could kind of feel

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Speaker 1: them out quickly, so I could see she's distressed, and

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Speaker 1: she starts talking to me about the situation and she's like,

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Speaker 1: I'm a German, hairess, I dad, why are transfers all

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Speaker 1: that jazz? Now, I can tell you as a New

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Speaker 1: York or born and bread rich people never have problems

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Speaker 1: with money. If you're rich enough, motherfucker's will come to

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Speaker 1: where you need to be and give you a bag

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Speaker 1: of cash. They will make sure you get paid. And

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Speaker 1: I'm saying to myself, you know what, if you were

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Speaker 1: the type of woman that it's coming to my office

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Speaker 1: and a Saturday, and you want me to believe you're

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Speaker 1: a German heiress. I want to work with you. I

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Speaker 1: like that you kind of crazy and I like crazy. Right,

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Speaker 1: So you did sense in that moment there was a

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Speaker 1: dissonance between truth and fiction. Yeah, of course the woman

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Speaker 1: asked to stay over. Does that seem like what happens

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Speaker 1: with German heiress is? Do you see like the Princess

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Speaker 1: of England being like, hey, can I stay at my

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Speaker 1: criminal defense lawyers apartment? Probably not right? Right? Yeah, I knew,

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Speaker 1: I knew there was something up, but I liked it.

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Speaker 1: It was intriguing. I liked her vibe. I liked the story,

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Speaker 1: and I just like the fact that she thought, I

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Speaker 1: would you believe this was the case and remind us

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Speaker 1: what exactly that case centered on, because there obviously so

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Speaker 1: much came after this. At that point, she had been

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Speaker 1: charged with leaving a bill at a hotel. What reason

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Speaker 1: did she give you that day for not paying her bill?

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Speaker 1: You know, I don't remember exactly what she said, but

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Speaker 1: it definitely was something along the lines of I don't

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Speaker 1: have access to all the money right now, trust fund

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Speaker 1: blah blah blah. Okay, So there was a part of

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Speaker 1: you that was just sort of I can't not look.

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Speaker 1: I want to know what happens next with this person. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I liked her. I liked her. I mean, you may

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Speaker 1: be like this person's bananas, but you kind of want

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Speaker 1: to know more. That's what happened. So obviously someone else

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Speaker 1: named Jessica Pressler felt the same about this. Yes, she

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Speaker 1: knew there was more to this story. And I'd love

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Speaker 1: to know when the two of you met and what

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Speaker 1: did you learn from each other and how did you

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Speaker 1: help each other, because in some senses you're on the

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Speaker 1: same team, but really you're supposed to be very separate entities. Yeah.

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Speaker 1: So when Anna first came to me, there was no story.

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Speaker 1: I mean, that's what I think a lot of people misunderstand.

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Speaker 1: There was no press, There was no story. It was

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Speaker 1: just me, my baby boy and her. And what happened

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Speaker 1: was and I had court for that misdemeanor case, and

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Speaker 1: we went to court, and somehow the local press in

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Speaker 1: New York, the Post and the local papers had picked

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Speaker 1: up that it was like stealing from a hotel and

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Speaker 1: it was kind of sexy for them, right. I think

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Speaker 1: the New York Post did a write up on that

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Speaker 1: exactly so somehow they picked up the criminal complaint. They

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Speaker 1: had enough information that it was sexy. They wrote some

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Speaker 1: very small, insignificant story. I've had a number of cases

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Speaker 1: that get attention like that's how it is, the gossipy stories.

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Speaker 1: So that happens. But I'm starting to get the feeling

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Speaker 1: that there's more to it because as I talked to

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Speaker 1: the district Attorney's office and I learned more about the case,

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Speaker 1: I start learning not about the banks, but I learned

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Speaker 1: more about other hotels and just other larcenies. So I'm

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Speaker 1: working on the case and then Jessica calls me and

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Speaker 1: she's you know, Jessica, you know these journalists are savvy.

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Speaker 1: Don't think they're not saving. They know what they're doing.

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Speaker 1: So Jessica calls me and she's like, I'd like to

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Speaker 1: meet you. I want to talk to you about a

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Speaker 1: case severs blah blah blah. And the truth is is

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Speaker 1: that almost universally, I'm like not now, you know, I

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Speaker 1: kind of brushed Jessica off, but if you ever need

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Speaker 1: something done, like a journalist is the person to go

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Speaker 1: to because they don't give a fuck. So Jessica starts

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Speaker 1: stalking me in a totally appropriate, okay, professional way, not

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Speaker 1: in anything bad, but she basically is like showing up

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Speaker 1: at court, showing up at arrangements, coming to my office

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Speaker 1: and she's like, look, there's more to the story and

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Speaker 1: I'm going to figure it out. And they're aggressive. So

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Speaker 1: she's kind of operating on her own trying to figure

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Speaker 1: out story. And the truth is there's a limit to

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Speaker 1: what I could share with her, you know, no matter what,

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Speaker 1: but certainly she may wind up obtaining materials that have

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Speaker 1: benefits to me. So after Jessica stalked me and almost

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Speaker 1: had to get the restraining order against the only kidding,

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Speaker 1: only kidding, we became really close and Jessica's my girl,

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Speaker 1: and and we hung out and we get drinks or whatever,

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Speaker 1: and we became close friends on our own, and we

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Speaker 1: had this strange relationship with Anna where Anna only really

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Speaker 1: had Jessica and me and I wound up in this

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Speaker 1: very strange situation where I'm her criminal defense lawyer. I'm

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Speaker 1: kind of like her best friend. She didn't really have

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Speaker 1: anyone else. Everyone else was trying to take advantage of

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Speaker 1: her or use her to their advantage or an opportunist.

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Speaker 1: And Jessica and I and I truly believe this, and

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Speaker 1: I know it's true. You know, we both did care

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Speaker 1: about her, like she was a young girl in a

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Speaker 1: foreign city in jail, and I think that the public

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Speaker 1: doesn't appreciate that right, Like it's hard to realize what

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Speaker 1: that experience must have been like for her, not whether

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Speaker 1: she deserved it, not whether she's innocent and guilty, But

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Speaker 1: just imagine for a second if you had a loved

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Speaker 1: one who was young, never been in jail before, dropped

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Speaker 1: into a German city jail, no family there, and no

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Speaker 1: friends there, the friends you have are cooperating with the

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Speaker 1: police against you. Like that's a really horrible situation for anyone.

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Speaker 1: And she's my client. I have her back, and that's it,

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Speaker 1: Like there is nothing more to it than that I

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Speaker 1: signed up to represent her and I was going to

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Speaker 1: do the fucking best I can to help her in

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Speaker 1: all respects, and that's the position I took. So me

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Speaker 1: and Jessica both had that kind of feeling. We both

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Speaker 1: were connected to her, and we both shared a sense

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Speaker 1: of her life is in our hands to some degree,

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Speaker 1: And there was a lot of back and forth about

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Speaker 1: what's the right thing for her to do, and Anna

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Speaker 1: would confide in Jessica, and then Jessica would confide in me,

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Speaker 1: and then I would talk to Anna and then it's

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Speaker 1: like a little relationship. It was like a very strange dynamic.

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Speaker 1: And to talk about the scene in the show which

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Speaker 1: kind of kicks off the character of Todd's journey in

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Speaker 1: taking on the case in a very formal way, the

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Speaker 1: truckload of discovery that the DA sends over. I want

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Speaker 1: every piece of evidence you have by the end of

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Speaker 1: this week. Are you asking me to waive my ethical

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Speaker 1: responsibility to act with due diligence and the execution of

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Speaker 1: my prosecutorial professional responsibilities, everything, everything you're sure end of

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Speaker 1: the week? Was that real? Did you actually have a

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Speaker 1: truckload of boxes that was that were sent over to you?

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Speaker 1: So it wasn't a truckload, but it was an enormous

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Speaker 1: amount of discovery. These financial crimes cases are always document heavy,

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Speaker 1: so it didn't play out that way, but it did

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Speaker 1: play out with me and my paralegal dealing with this

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Speaker 1: voluminous amount of discovery in a very short period of time.

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Speaker 1: And we have a you know, a busy firm. There's

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Speaker 1: a lot of cases and a lot of things going on.

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Speaker 1: So it certainly was is overwhelming to start with, I

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Speaker 1: can tell you that. And how long of the period

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Speaker 1: did you have to review all these materials? I mean,

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Speaker 1: I want to say was maybe three months or something

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Speaker 1: like that to really spend the time and go through them.

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Speaker 1: And you know, I was here day in day out

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Speaker 1: just getting organized and understanding how the timeline played out

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Speaker 1: and all the fun interesting characters that were coming out

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Speaker 1: of the woodwork, like a fucking Lord of the Rings movie,

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Speaker 1: And yeah, it was an interesting ride. And on that note,

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Speaker 1: what was the most shocking or surprising thing that sort

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Speaker 1: of was revealed to you through this discovery? What really

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Speaker 1: stood out to you? I mean I kind of was

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Speaker 1: bewildered that all these super prominent influencers and doctors and

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Speaker 1: lawyers and architects and all these like really highbrow people

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Speaker 1: who are in the public eye just literally opened the

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Speaker 1: door for her and they didn't care whether what she

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Speaker 1: was saying was true or whether she really had these

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Speaker 1: resources or these connections. Like I don't want to just

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Speaker 1: reiterate my closing statement, but they really were blinded by

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Speaker 1: the glamor and glades, like they really were. I met

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Speaker 1: her for like five minutes in Brooklyn on the way

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Speaker 1: to a party, and I was like, okay, Shawty, Like

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Speaker 1: you definitely are not telling me the truth. Like, and

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Speaker 1: you know, I'm just a kid from Brooklyn, Like, how

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Speaker 1: are you gonna be a partner at all these white

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Speaker 1: shoe law firms and you're gonna be all these big

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Speaker 1: people and you're not gonna do any due diligence whatsoever.

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Speaker 1: And I don't want to disparage everyone involved, but I

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Speaker 1: think that everyone I was so excited about the opportunity

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Speaker 1: to work with the German errats, with Royalty, with the

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Speaker 1: blue blood, with someone from this high brow background, that

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Speaker 1: they just closed their eyes and they were willing to

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Speaker 1: do it end And I imagine that's what it's like

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Speaker 1: working with celebrities to some degree, Like that's the vibe

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Speaker 1: they must give you. Because everyone had the same story.

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Speaker 1: Everyone was like, I met her at this convention, I

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Speaker 1: met her at this art event, I met her on

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Speaker 1: a to fucking Warren Buffett, Stay, what are you going

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Speaker 1: to think when you're in that situation. Let's talk about

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Speaker 1: the framing of the case and your strategy. So you've

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Speaker 1: talked about this sort of Frank Sinatra fake it till

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Speaker 1: you make it idea that Anna was just doing her

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Speaker 1: thing and you know, throwing a wrench in the system.

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Speaker 1: But she's just a woman with a dream. Anna followed

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Speaker 1: suit and became the person she wanted to be, a

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Speaker 1: person who would receive the red carpet from New York's elite.

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Speaker 1: She allowed everyone to believe the story they wanted to believe.

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Speaker 1: It wasn't a crime when Sinatra did it. It isn't

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Speaker 1: a crime now. So I got this case, and now

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Speaker 1: I'm like, all right, we're going to trial. This ship

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Speaker 1: is about to be a war. And I knew off

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Speaker 1: the bat there was no scenario where she was beating

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Speaker 1: five of those charges. It was just she was dead

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Speaker 1: to right. So you would really resign yourself to that.

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Speaker 1: Early on, the idea that she was beating any of

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Speaker 1: these charges was so preposterous because it whole thing was

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Speaker 1: a fraud. It was totally bananas. Once I started going

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Speaker 1: through the evidence and I'm like, Okay, it's not her name,

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Speaker 1: it's not her bank account, this is not her passport,

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Speaker 1: she has no money, there's not a dollar to account.

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Speaker 1: What was it going to say to the jury, Oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a mistake. Like there were hard facts that you

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Speaker 1: had that were not on your side. So what I

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Speaker 1: had to do is I had to analyze the charges

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Speaker 1: and the elements and say, what story can I tell

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Speaker 1: the jury that is comprised of a lot of different

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Speaker 1: people from a lot of different backgrounds, some rich, some poor,

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Speaker 1: some fat, some skinny, some from Manhattan, some from somewhere else,

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Speaker 1: men versus women, all these things that would relate. And

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Speaker 1: I'm a big Frank Sinatra fan. Okay, my grandmother was

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Speaker 1: a big Frank Sinatra fan. She used to cut school

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Speaker 1: to see Sinatra. I've read like every biography. I love Sinatra.

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Speaker 1: On October eleven, Frank Sinatra opened the Paramount Theater and

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Speaker 1: Times Square women swooned at the side of all blue eyes.

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Speaker 1: They literally fed to the public. This was the Sinatra effect,

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Speaker 1: but in reality it was strategically created by Sinatra's press agents,

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Speaker 1: all because if he can make it here, he'll make

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Speaker 1: it anywhere. And why I thought it was fitting is

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Speaker 1: one people come to New York to make it. This

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Speaker 1: is a common theme, and everyone can respect that. Everyone

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Speaker 1: comes to New York City. It's a hard place to live,

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Speaker 1: it's expensive, and if you're here, you likely are a

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Speaker 1: ambitious motivated individuals. So one I wanted to paint the

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Speaker 1: picture that this was someone who was trying to get

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Speaker 1: something done. It's not like she was creating some sort

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Speaker 1: of Ponzi scheme. She actually had a plan to make

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Speaker 1: this foundation real. The other thing that I wanted to

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Speaker 1: get across is that a lot of people take shortcuts

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Speaker 1: to get things set up. And a really good example

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Speaker 1: of this now is like Banksy or Cause the artist,

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Speaker 1: or jay Z or any of these people that we

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Speaker 1: all think of now as these pillars of the community.

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Speaker 1: And you could spend five million dollars of Christie's buying

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Speaker 1: a piece. But that's not how it started, right. No

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Speaker 1: one gave a ship about jay Z when he was

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Speaker 1: selling Cracked. No one gave a ship about Cause when

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Speaker 1: he was in New Jersey doing pieces. And I love Cause,

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Speaker 1: and no one cared about Banksy either. And so for Anna,

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Speaker 1: if Anna had the right background, if if she went

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Speaker 1: to Harvard Business School and she had family money, and

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Speaker 1: she had summer houses in Greenwage or wherever, all those

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Speaker 1: doors would open for her. But she didn't have anything.

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Speaker 1: So just like Banksy, college jay Z, whoever, took some

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Speaker 1: shortcuts to get where they are, that's what she did.

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Speaker 1: She took some shortcuts. So I want a jury to

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Speaker 1: understand that this isn't revolutionary. There are precedents for this behavior.

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Speaker 1: This is puffery. People do this. Oh my god, invest

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Speaker 1: with me. I'm gonna make you a billion dollars. Oh,

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Speaker 1: I'm on Instagram. Here's my jet, here's this. You know,

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Speaker 1: people do this. And I knew that the only way

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Speaker 1: we had a chance was to separate the charges that

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Speaker 1: were impossible to be with the charges that were possible,

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Speaker 1: build credibility with the jurors, let them like me, let

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Speaker 1: them feel that I'm being honest with them, and they'd

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Speaker 1: follow my logic through and it worked. More from behind

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Speaker 1: the scenes of inventing Anna coming up after this, Welcome

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Speaker 1: back to everybody. Let's continue with the interview um. One

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Speaker 1: of the writers on the show, Matt Burne, was actually

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Speaker 1: present in the courtroom for the trial. That's my man,

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Speaker 1: that's my man. I love Matt, you know, Matt, good guy.

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Speaker 1: He recalls hearing you and Anna screaming at each other

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Speaker 1: from the other side of the wall. Okay, Anna, listen,

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Speaker 1: now you've funked up this entire trial. I know, with

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Speaker 1: your stupid long Island accent and your stupid faith that

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Speaker 1: you would be a useless piece of ships. Why Anna,

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Speaker 1: shut the funk up and listen. And I'm wondering, what

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Speaker 1: do you remember about what those arguments were about. Was

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Speaker 1: it about the clothing? Was it about her just sort

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Speaker 1: of disdainful behavior during the trial. I mean, I will

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Speaker 1: say this, I'll say one, anybody who is incarcerated on

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Speaker 1: trial is going through some next level horror show of

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Speaker 1: an experience. An Okay, you're waking up at four in

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Speaker 1: the morning, you don't have your clothes, you're not like

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Speaker 1: dressed apart, you don't feel good, your life is on

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Speaker 1: the line, like the whole ship is fucked up. It's really,

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Speaker 1: you know, a tremendous feeling of pressure and being overwhelmed.

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Speaker 1: So that's one. Two. Anna didn't necessarily understand that a

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Speaker 1: criminal trial is not the revenue to just explain your

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Speaker 1: business plans or to just say you're a good person.

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Speaker 1: A trial is almost like a mathematical formula, and you

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Speaker 1: have to attack the formula. You have to attack the

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Speaker 1: elements of the crime and to some degree, and it

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Speaker 1: didn't care if she won a loss. You know, she

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Speaker 1: wanted to get her story out there. Her position did

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Speaker 1: not jive with any trial strategy that would succeed, and

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Speaker 1: so there was turmoil about that and also breaking news

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Speaker 1: coming out of Lower Manhattan. And is pretty controlling. She's

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Speaker 1: not someone who's like cool, I'll just do it your way.

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Speaker 1: She seems very obstinate at times. Exactly, I'm taking the

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Speaker 1: stand too incompetent ape this entire defense, and you are

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Speaker 1: completely my reputation, your reputation, So I don't play that

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Speaker 1: particularly to trial, and I have to do what I

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Speaker 1: think is best for her to a large degree, Like

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Speaker 1: I'm not we're not friends, you know what I'm saying, Like,

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Speaker 1: we're not friends from the beginning. I'm your lawyer. I'm

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Speaker 1: here to protect you. And I've done a million of

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Speaker 1: these trials and you've done zero. And I don't give

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Speaker 1: a funk what you are worried about what people are

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Speaker 1: gonna say and see and da da da da da.

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Speaker 1: That's not my concern. My concern is getting to the

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Speaker 1: funk out of jail. And how did you feel about

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Speaker 1: the Instagram account about her trial style? Was that something

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Speaker 1: that you felt hurt her case? Anyone who's going on

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Speaker 1: trial for any criminal case is going to be concerned

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Speaker 1: with how they look, just like when you woke up today,

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Speaker 1: you were concerned with how you look, and I was

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Speaker 1: concerned with how I look. That's a natural feeling. Add

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Speaker 1: On that your life is on the line, and if

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Speaker 1: you lose the case, you're going to jail for potentially

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Speaker 1: twelve years. Of course you're going to be concerned. Add

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Speaker 1: On that I'm trying to convey a savvy young businesswoman.

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Speaker 1: Add On that the entire world is watching you every

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Speaker 1: step of the way, talking about it, tweeting about instagramming

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Speaker 1: about a journalist, of writing blah blah blah blah blah.

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Speaker 1: So you add on all of that, is anyone really

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Speaker 1: surprised that she was like, oh my god, I want

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Speaker 1: to wear a cool outfit. Like it's logical that she

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Speaker 1: wants to wear a cool outfit. The illogical part is

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Speaker 1: the execution of all that, the fucking fits and the

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Speaker 1: drama and the yelling and the back and forth and

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Speaker 1: not wearing the outfits. But I don't knock her for

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Speaker 1: wanting to look good. I do think that it did

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Speaker 1: not help her case with the judge for her to

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Speaker 1: make such a big deal about the clothes and delay things,

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Speaker 1: and Judge Kiso, who was presiding over it, is a

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Speaker 1: very fair good judge, but there's a limit. I'm gonna

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Speaker 1: sip this iced coffee, Mr Spodick, and when I'm finished,

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Speaker 1: if your client isn't dressed and before me, I'm going

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Speaker 1: to be wildly, deeply unhappy. Yes, and don't let the

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Speaker 1: jump most size boo you. I drink fast. She has

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Speaker 1: a courtroom to run, she's a trial to run. So

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Speaker 1: I think that anything that we would do that isn't necessary,

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Speaker 1: that's going to upset or disturb the judge is not

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Speaker 1: in your best interests because the judge is going to

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Speaker 1: sentence you eventually. Yes, that does make sense. The judge

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Speaker 1: getting upset was not the right choice for her, but

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Speaker 1: I understand why she wanted to look a certain way. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'd like to talk about the show a little bit.

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Speaker 1: There's a great scene going back to episode one where

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Speaker 1: the character of Todd is telling his wife that he

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Speaker 1: doesn't want to quote park cars for other people his

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Speaker 1: whole life. Even though I'm with Margaret Vanderburn, porter of

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Speaker 1: the New York Porters, and even though that tuxedo costs

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Speaker 1: more than some people making a month, Even then I

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Speaker 1: still feel like one of the Valet's mhm. Now come

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Speaker 1: back in Long Island and I'm parking cars to help

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Speaker 1: my mom pay the rent. I was wondering how much

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Speaker 1: of that sentiment resonated with you, and how much of

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Speaker 1: that idea is driving you in your own life. You know,

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Speaker 1: I didn't necessarily park cars, but I grew up, you know,

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Speaker 1: with a single mom in Brooklyn with my brother, and

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Speaker 1: certainly didn't come from means. It wasn't poverty, but it

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Speaker 1: wasn't a glamorous childhood by any stretch of the imagination.

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Speaker 1: And my wife, I grew up in Manhanan on the

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Speaker 1: Upper East Side, and you know, she's a little bit fancy,

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Speaker 1: and certainly there's that dichotomy in our relationship, right Like

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Speaker 1: I'm much more street quote unquote and she's much more proper.

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Speaker 1: I do have a little bit of me against the

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Speaker 1: world vibe, and I think that that's what they were

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Speaker 1: conveying to the audience. And I'm a criminal lawyer, like

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Speaker 1: it works with who I am, and I'm someone who

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00:23:51,520 --> 00:23:55,120
Speaker 1: strongly believes like you own your own destiny, Like your

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Speaker 1: success or your failure is not dependent on anyone else,

428
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,199
Speaker 1: It's on you, you make it happen. That's how my

429
00:24:01,280 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: mom raised me. And I think that conversation that they

430
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:08,359
Speaker 1: portrayed is accurate. I don't think those words are exactly accurate,

431
00:24:08,400 --> 00:24:12,199
Speaker 1: but certainly what they feeling is accurate. And tell me

432
00:24:12,240 --> 00:24:15,880
Speaker 1: your overall thoughts on the show, how you are depicted,

433
00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,320
Speaker 1: how the law is depicted, and also the wonderful actor

434
00:24:19,320 --> 00:24:21,600
Speaker 1: who plays you, Arian Moya, and he did such a

435
00:24:21,600 --> 00:24:24,960
Speaker 1: fantastic job. Arian is the man. What are your overall

436
00:24:25,080 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 1: feelings about the way that the work you do is portrayed,

437
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:31,040
Speaker 1: and any favorite scenes that stick out to you. Okay,

438
00:24:31,080 --> 00:24:33,760
Speaker 1: so I love the whole show. I loved it all.

439
00:24:33,800 --> 00:24:38,399
Speaker 1: I think Arian is fantastic. Is a handsome devil. He

440
00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,600
Speaker 1: is very handsome, yes, and I had the chance to

441
00:24:40,600 --> 00:24:43,400
Speaker 1: meet him and we certainly have plans to connect soon

442
00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,359
Speaker 1: and hang out. So I think they did great. You know,

443
00:24:46,440 --> 00:24:49,240
Speaker 1: I'm not a fucking movie critic, Like I'm not here

444
00:24:49,240 --> 00:24:51,360
Speaker 1: to be like, oh my god, they did this, they

445
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:54,320
Speaker 1: did that so funny. It's like clients constantly like your

446
00:24:54,359 --> 00:24:58,000
Speaker 1: office like this or your house. I'm like, it's fucking Hollywood,

447
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:00,119
Speaker 1: Like what did you think? Like, it's not that you

448
00:25:00,160 --> 00:25:03,840
Speaker 1: mentory that's not me. It's not me. You know, I'm

449
00:25:03,920 --> 00:25:07,439
Speaker 1: humbled by this experience. I'm grateful for being part of it.

450
00:25:07,600 --> 00:25:10,240
Speaker 1: I'm grateful for all the people that I worked with

451
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:13,920
Speaker 1: and connected with. So I loved it. Um. I think

452
00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:17,600
Speaker 1: that he portrayed me accurately to a degree. I think

453
00:25:17,640 --> 00:25:21,080
Speaker 1: the context between me and my wife is a real thing.

454
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,680
Speaker 1: And I think Jessica must have shared that with jan

455
00:25:23,760 --> 00:25:25,960
Speaker 1: Do or whoever else, and you know, that's a real thing,

456
00:25:25,960 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: and that's that's cool, that's who I am, Like, it

457
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:30,800
Speaker 1: is what it is. I think that my kids being

458
00:25:30,840 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: involved in my life and big part of my life

459
00:25:33,680 --> 00:25:36,119
Speaker 1: is obviously true. Like my kids are my life. I

460
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: love my kids. And they're also like, oh my god,

461
00:25:38,600 --> 00:25:40,760
Speaker 1: we're on TV two, you know, like it's cool, like

462
00:25:41,359 --> 00:25:45,160
Speaker 1: we're all kind of cavelling over it. And um, as

463
00:25:45,240 --> 00:25:51,040
Speaker 1: far as the relationship between me and the prosecutor, you know,

464
00:25:51,560 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: hand DA's office is a powerful DA's office. There's a

465
00:25:54,160 --> 00:25:56,119
Speaker 1: lot of resources, a lot of people. They had a

466
00:25:56,200 --> 00:25:59,760
Speaker 1: fucking crew at trial, and yeah, I wanted to spank

467
00:25:59,800 --> 00:26:01,520
Speaker 1: this out of them. Of course I did, because that's

468
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: what a criminal lawyer wants to do. And I also

469
00:26:05,400 --> 00:26:08,400
Speaker 1: liked that it was just me against them. It made

470
00:26:08,440 --> 00:26:11,719
Speaker 1: me feel good about myself, like I don't need twenty

471
00:26:11,760 --> 00:26:13,919
Speaker 1: people here, I'll do this by myself. And you know

472
00:26:13,960 --> 00:26:16,120
Speaker 1: that when when you say that, it sounds so much

473
00:26:16,160 --> 00:26:18,640
Speaker 1: like something Anna herself would say. And do you think

474
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:23,879
Speaker 1: that's how you connected emotionally with her? Anna is admirable

475
00:26:23,880 --> 00:26:27,440
Speaker 1: in a lot of ways. I don't condone criminality, That's

476
00:26:27,520 --> 00:26:30,439
Speaker 1: not what I do. But I like hustle, and I

477
00:26:30,480 --> 00:26:33,520
Speaker 1: like people who get ship done. And if you had

478
00:26:33,560 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 1: to plan like our bossle, let's just say, do you

479
00:26:36,119 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: think Anna could achieve it? You know she could achieve it, right,

480
00:26:39,359 --> 00:26:40,959
Speaker 1: But there are some people out there that you know,

481
00:26:41,000 --> 00:26:43,040
Speaker 1: they can't even make it to dinner on time, they

482
00:26:43,080 --> 00:26:48,040
Speaker 1: can't plan anything. So to me, I'm impressed by Anna,

483
00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:49,959
Speaker 1: and I'm impressed that she did it. I don't know

484
00:26:50,040 --> 00:26:53,560
Speaker 1: in another fucking country, Like can you imagine if you

485
00:26:53,640 --> 00:26:55,600
Speaker 1: dropped me off to fucking Germany right now? It was like,

486
00:26:55,600 --> 00:26:58,680
Speaker 1: all right, Todd, like set up some private solo house

487
00:26:58,760 --> 00:27:03,360
Speaker 1: type organization like that be impossible. So whether she took

488
00:27:03,400 --> 00:27:07,440
Speaker 1: shortcuts committed crimes, still everyone's money. The fact is that

489
00:27:07,480 --> 00:27:11,119
Speaker 1: she she actually made progress to getting it done, and

490
00:27:11,400 --> 00:27:13,520
Speaker 1: she did it on her own, and I liked I

491
00:27:13,880 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: liked her, and I like that vibe and I saw

492
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:18,320
Speaker 1: some of it in me too. And do you have

493
00:27:18,400 --> 00:27:20,960
Speaker 1: any mementos from working with her or the trial or

494
00:27:21,000 --> 00:27:25,040
Speaker 1: anything that you'll keep as a keepsake if you will, yes. So,

495
00:27:25,840 --> 00:27:28,639
Speaker 1: you know, you do these trials, and I've done a

496
00:27:28,680 --> 00:27:32,600
Speaker 1: lot of trials, and sometimes it doesn't work out. Sometimes

497
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,880
Speaker 1: it does, but it's rare that the clients are appreciative.

498
00:27:36,119 --> 00:27:39,200
Speaker 1: It's just the reality of this business, right because if

499
00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:41,919
Speaker 1: you win and you still go to jail, you're still upset.

500
00:27:42,440 --> 00:27:46,600
Speaker 1: So after the trial, Anna wrote me a handwritten thank

501
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,679
Speaker 1: you know that I saved and it's actually in my

502
00:27:50,760 --> 00:27:55,600
Speaker 1: office over there. And I appreciate that, even in the

503
00:27:55,800 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 1: dark times for her, right even though she lost some

504
00:27:58,840 --> 00:28:00,440
Speaker 1: of the counts and she was going to be in

505
00:28:00,520 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 1: jail and she was going to be deported, you know,

506
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:05,120
Speaker 1: she took the time to be like, godd, I really

507
00:28:05,160 --> 00:28:09,520
Speaker 1: appreciate everything, and I'm really grateful and I'm humbled by it.

508
00:28:09,600 --> 00:28:11,199
Speaker 1: You know, she didn't have to do that, and I

509
00:28:11,200 --> 00:28:14,240
Speaker 1: thought that was really nice, and she's a decent person,

510
00:28:14,440 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: you know. And then my final question for you, is

511
00:28:17,760 --> 00:28:20,760
Speaker 1: the show really lays out this idea that Anna Sirokan

512
00:28:20,840 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 1: and Anna Delby are, in essence, two different people. One

513
00:28:24,119 --> 00:28:26,159
Speaker 1: could be sort of more of a fabricated version of

514
00:28:26,160 --> 00:28:29,679
Speaker 1: the other. Do you see them as distinct have the

515
00:28:29,720 --> 00:28:32,080
Speaker 1: same hole, and do they feel different to you as people?

516
00:28:32,480 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: I would say that there's the outside Anna, right, Anna

517
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:41,040
Speaker 1: that communicates with the world, and that's someone who wants

518
00:28:41,080 --> 00:28:43,200
Speaker 1: to be viewed a certain way, right, And that's like

519
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:46,960
Speaker 1: the tough, ambitious entrepreneur I don't give a fuck, like

520
00:28:46,960 --> 00:28:50,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna make it happen. And that's one side of her, right,

521
00:28:50,040 --> 00:28:54,760
Speaker 1: and that is the Anna Delvy person. And then there's

522
00:28:54,840 --> 00:28:57,720
Speaker 1: the side that I got to know. And this sounds cheesy,

523
00:28:57,840 --> 00:29:00,360
Speaker 1: Like I get that this sounds cheesy, but like I

524
00:29:00,400 --> 00:29:03,200
Speaker 1: saw her at the lowest and when it was just

525
00:29:03,240 --> 00:29:07,640
Speaker 1: me and her, and where's moments of intimacy where she

526
00:29:07,840 --> 00:29:11,920
Speaker 1: was Anna Surkin, the real person, And she was a young,

527
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,040
Speaker 1: frightened girl on Riker's Island, and she was crying to

528
00:29:15,120 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: me and she was like, you have to help me.

529
00:29:17,880 --> 00:29:23,520
Speaker 1: And I tried to. I certainly tried to. And everyone

530
00:29:24,120 --> 00:29:27,320
Speaker 1: in this world is like multifaceted right, Like nobody could

531
00:29:27,320 --> 00:29:31,560
Speaker 1: be defined by one thing, and certainly someone as complex

532
00:29:31,600 --> 00:29:34,120
Speaker 1: as Anna. The public has to realize is that there

533
00:29:34,120 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 1: are many aspects of her and you're watching a fictionalized

534
00:29:38,520 --> 00:29:42,920
Speaker 1: Netflix show like that's not the real person. Um. I

535
00:29:42,960 --> 00:29:45,160
Speaker 1: don't know if it's a good thing or bad thing,

536
00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:46,920
Speaker 1: but I definitely did see a side of her that

537
00:29:46,960 --> 00:29:50,320
Speaker 1: other people did well. Todd, we really do appreciate your time.

538
00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,920
Speaker 1: You really have brought such a new level of understanding

539
00:29:52,920 --> 00:29:55,680
Speaker 1: to this complex case and also to your work, And

540
00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,120
Speaker 1: really thank you for your time. We really appreciate it. Yeah,

541
00:29:58,160 --> 00:29:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm happy to be part of it. If you need

542
00:29:59,600 --> 00:30:06,920
Speaker 1: anything on me, don't go anywhere. We'll be right back

543
00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 1: with Shonda Land writer Matt Byrne, who attended Anna's trial

544
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:26,880
Speaker 1: and wrote the series finale. And we are back with

545
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:36,120
Speaker 1: writer Matt Burne. Before we talk about inventing Anna, I

546
00:30:36,160 --> 00:30:40,280
Speaker 1: do want to acknowledge that you have a background in journalism,

547
00:30:40,280 --> 00:30:42,840
Speaker 1: as do I, and I want us to talk about, firstly,

548
00:30:43,120 --> 00:30:46,160
Speaker 1: how you make the transition from our in the trenches

549
00:30:46,280 --> 00:30:49,400
Speaker 1: job as a journalist and what is it like to

550
00:30:49,440 --> 00:30:51,400
Speaker 1: become a TV writer. What did the two disciplines have

551
00:30:51,440 --> 00:30:54,480
Speaker 1: in common? Oh, boy. Um, the transitions are kind of

552
00:30:54,480 --> 00:30:57,200
Speaker 1: a long story. I was kind of forced into it

553
00:30:57,280 --> 00:31:00,880
Speaker 1: in a way. I sort of tried switched careers. I

554
00:31:00,960 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: was producing news for CNN throughout my twenties, which was

555
00:31:04,880 --> 00:31:07,240
Speaker 1: an amazing experience all in all, and took me all

556
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:09,960
Speaker 1: over the world and and took me behind the scenes

557
00:31:09,960 --> 00:31:13,040
Speaker 1: of power and but it really wasn't my calling. And

558
00:31:13,080 --> 00:31:15,720
Speaker 1: so I switched careers and came out to USC and

559
00:31:15,760 --> 00:31:19,560
Speaker 1: did their producing program. I immediately after taking a stab

560
00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,120
Speaker 1: at a script, knew that I had to just kind

561
00:31:23,160 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: of re engineer that program to become a writer. That's

562
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,960
Speaker 1: the quick story on how I transition. I started hustling

563
00:31:30,000 --> 00:31:33,920
Speaker 1: for jobs, and I was a researcher for the writers

564
00:31:33,920 --> 00:31:36,720
Speaker 1: of Grey's Anatomy, so learned how like a writer's room

565
00:31:36,760 --> 00:31:39,320
Speaker 1: works there and and sorry, what was the second part

566
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,920
Speaker 1: of your question, Stacy? I was just curious what the

567
00:31:42,040 --> 00:31:44,600
Speaker 1: two disciplines have in common that you notice in terms

568
00:31:44,600 --> 00:31:47,280
Speaker 1: of overlap the way a newsroom works versus the way

569
00:31:47,320 --> 00:31:50,400
Speaker 1: a writer's room works. People are a lot nicer in

570
00:31:50,480 --> 00:31:54,640
Speaker 1: a writer's room. That's good to know. I understand the

571
00:31:54,640 --> 00:31:57,680
Speaker 1: pressure cooker vibe of news is yeah, people are a

572
00:31:57,720 --> 00:32:00,760
Speaker 1: lot nicer in Hollywood than there in d C. So

573
00:32:00,880 --> 00:32:04,480
Speaker 1: inventing Anna, and in talking to Shonda and Jessica Pressler

574
00:32:04,560 --> 00:32:07,200
Speaker 1: and a lot of your colleagues, we have really sinsed

575
00:32:07,200 --> 00:32:10,720
Speaker 1: this kind of magical hybrid of a story based on

576
00:32:10,760 --> 00:32:14,240
Speaker 1: true events but also creative license. So I'd love for

577
00:32:14,240 --> 00:32:16,479
Speaker 1: you to walk me through what your experience was working

578
00:32:16,480 --> 00:32:20,000
Speaker 1: with Shonda in the writer's room to map out this series.

579
00:32:20,720 --> 00:32:23,600
Speaker 1: Why not tell it in a linear fashion versus the

580
00:32:23,640 --> 00:32:26,080
Speaker 1: way that you did time jumps You sort of devoted

581
00:32:26,080 --> 00:32:29,200
Speaker 1: an episode to each character. Walk me through those decisions.

582
00:32:29,600 --> 00:32:31,960
Speaker 1: I think, yes, it's a true story, but with a

583
00:32:32,040 --> 00:32:36,720
Speaker 1: completely unreliable narrator. So I wouldn't say it forced our hand,

584
00:32:36,840 --> 00:32:39,840
Speaker 1: but it certainly made it more interesting to tell everyone

585
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,600
Speaker 1: else's experience with Anna versus trying to sort of chronicle

586
00:32:43,760 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: her narrative directly, because it's full of manipulation lies. There

587
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,480
Speaker 1: are a few holes in her story, right, Yeah. And

588
00:32:53,800 --> 00:32:56,720
Speaker 1: also what was fascinating is that each of them sort

589
00:32:56,760 --> 00:32:59,959
Speaker 1: of met a different Anna and had a different experience

590
00:33:00,040 --> 00:33:02,440
Speaker 1: with her, And I think some of that seemed to

591
00:33:02,680 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: our sense to be projected upon her by those individuals,

592
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,719
Speaker 1: And what maybe what they needed and what they wanted.

593
00:33:08,760 --> 00:33:13,160
Speaker 1: And and also because Anna considered turn a corner and

594
00:33:13,240 --> 00:33:15,560
Speaker 1: be a different person with a different person in order

595
00:33:15,600 --> 00:33:18,360
Speaker 1: to get what she needs. So we have this rich

596
00:33:18,440 --> 00:33:22,440
Speaker 1: world that Jessica Pressler gave us outside of Anna herself,

597
00:33:22,720 --> 00:33:28,200
Speaker 1: all these characters who chronicle they're very specific experience with Anna,

598
00:33:28,520 --> 00:33:31,680
Speaker 1: and that kind of help dictate the narrative style in

599
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:35,200
Speaker 1: a way. It's amazing, And you referenced Jessica's incredible story

600
00:33:35,200 --> 00:33:38,120
Speaker 1: and her reporting and the words that come to me

601
00:33:38,200 --> 00:33:40,920
Speaker 1: with with that our world building. She created this incredible

602
00:33:40,960 --> 00:33:43,200
Speaker 1: world in which Anna was just one of the characters.

603
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:48,120
Speaker 1: Tell me how you use Jessica's article as a blueprint. Yeah. God,

604
00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,080
Speaker 1: she gave us so much good material. I think, so

605
00:33:51,160 --> 00:33:55,520
Speaker 1: many great characters and stories, but you know they're also

606
00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,560
Speaker 1: a lot of holes around the sort of wise and

607
00:33:59,600 --> 00:34:03,040
Speaker 1: how so that's where we stepped in and it felt

608
00:34:03,080 --> 00:34:06,400
Speaker 1: like in terms of what we added, you know, a

609
00:34:06,480 --> 00:34:12,239
Speaker 1: lot of it was the direct interpersonal relationships and what

610
00:34:12,920 --> 00:34:17,480
Speaker 1: each character experienced with Hannah beyond the sort of facts

611
00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:20,520
Speaker 1: of it all, but the emotional story because we had

612
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,600
Speaker 1: these sort of puzzle pieces of a story, it was

613
00:34:24,640 --> 00:34:28,920
Speaker 1: sort of gave us the freedom to go down different

614
00:34:28,920 --> 00:34:32,400
Speaker 1: avenues of what if this was the reason why this happened,

615
00:34:32,520 --> 00:34:36,000
Speaker 1: or what if? You know. I think really what we

616
00:34:36,120 --> 00:34:39,200
Speaker 1: focused on in terms of trying to fill in the

617
00:34:39,200 --> 00:34:43,120
Speaker 1: gaps most of all, really was Annah's story. Just the

618
00:34:43,160 --> 00:34:47,279
Speaker 1: simple question of like was she gonna take off with

619
00:34:47,400 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: that twenty million dollars from the banks or was she

620
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:51,520
Speaker 1: going to pour it into this foundation? You know what

621
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 1: I mean? Like I still don't know the answer that question.

622
00:34:54,760 --> 00:34:56,640
Speaker 1: No one knows the answer to that question, you know.

623
00:34:56,760 --> 00:35:01,160
Speaker 1: So that right in there of its self gave us

624
00:35:01,280 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 1: license to sort of ask the questions we want to

625
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:10,759
Speaker 1: ask through these characters, narratives and posts impossible decision making

626
00:35:10,800 --> 00:35:14,640
Speaker 1: behind her behavior, and then allow for the audience to

627
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:19,960
Speaker 1: reject or inject their own feelings about that. And you

628
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:23,680
Speaker 1: did exhaustive research as a room, as a production, in

629
00:35:23,800 --> 00:35:27,399
Speaker 1: terms of interviewing the real life people, legal documents. As

630
00:35:27,400 --> 00:35:29,360
Speaker 1: a former journalist, you probably also kind of felt like

631
00:35:29,360 --> 00:35:31,440
Speaker 1: you were putting a story together, right. You're compiling all

632
00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:35,200
Speaker 1: your sourcing, You're vetting accounts of events. I would love

633
00:35:35,239 --> 00:35:38,560
Speaker 1: to know what was your favorite or shocking discovery. I

634
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:41,640
Speaker 1: think Anna, the character says this in the story in

635
00:35:41,960 --> 00:35:48,160
Speaker 1: the last scene, but it's how willing she was to

636
00:35:48,239 --> 00:35:53,239
Speaker 1: withstand the sort of pressures of making people uncomfortable to

637
00:35:53,360 --> 00:35:56,160
Speaker 1: get what she wants. You don't deserve this kind of

638
00:35:56,160 --> 00:36:01,760
Speaker 1: a sentence. Mistakes were made was to overestimate people's ability

639
00:36:01,840 --> 00:36:07,279
Speaker 1: to handle stress. Beyond the pages of Jessica's story and

640
00:36:07,320 --> 00:36:09,040
Speaker 1: the and all the research that we did, it was

641
00:36:09,280 --> 00:36:12,440
Speaker 1: witnessing her in person. I think was was the most

642
00:36:12,440 --> 00:36:17,600
Speaker 1: shocking thing of how brazen and delightful she is. At

643
00:36:17,600 --> 00:36:19,520
Speaker 1: the same time, Wow, and we're going to do a

644
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:22,479
Speaker 1: deep dive into the trial and your experiences uh being

645
00:36:22,520 --> 00:36:25,240
Speaker 1: present for that incredible event. I want to make time

646
00:36:25,320 --> 00:36:27,680
Speaker 1: for us to discuss your incredible work. On episode two,

647
00:36:27,920 --> 00:36:30,640
Speaker 1: the Double War, Anna, tell me a little bit about

648
00:36:30,680 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 1: the characters of Chase and Vowel and why they are

649
00:36:34,360 --> 00:36:38,000
Speaker 1: specifically important in this episode. To open up Anna for

650
00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,880
Speaker 1: the viewer. You know, I think it's about that period

651
00:36:40,920 --> 00:36:44,279
Speaker 1: of time where you're trying to find yourself as in

652
00:36:44,320 --> 00:36:48,759
Speaker 1: your mid twenties, and it's also having true friends. I

653
00:36:48,760 --> 00:36:53,319
Speaker 1: think this is in Vale that the potentially last real

654
00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:58,120
Speaker 1: true friendship without any ties, without any quick quote, you know,

655
00:36:58,400 --> 00:37:01,959
Speaker 1: just like someone who loved her, and she loved back

656
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:04,040
Speaker 1: in a genuine way and they were real pals. And

657
00:37:04,080 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: then so you know, she's kind of playing with this

658
00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:09,440
Speaker 1: character of herself, with Theanna Delvi of it all. I

659
00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,840
Speaker 1: don't think she's really found it yet. In this episode.

660
00:37:11,840 --> 00:37:14,120
Speaker 1: It's almost like an outfit she's trying on in a

661
00:37:14,120 --> 00:37:16,920
Speaker 1: way exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. It's like she's sort of

662
00:37:16,960 --> 00:37:19,759
Speaker 1: strutting it around and trying out different things and she

663
00:37:19,880 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 1: has no direction yet. And then once she does, it's

664
00:37:23,320 --> 00:37:28,200
Speaker 1: sort of the the sacrifice that's involved for her in

665
00:37:29,040 --> 00:37:32,680
Speaker 1: having to make that decision to ditch the one person

666
00:37:32,719 --> 00:37:35,440
Speaker 1: who loves you for who you are, maybe more than anything,

667
00:37:35,520 --> 00:37:39,120
Speaker 1: because Chase is not that person. It's well, you know,

668
00:37:39,280 --> 00:37:43,000
Speaker 1: and so there's a lot of heartbreak in that, I think,

669
00:37:43,680 --> 00:37:46,920
Speaker 1: and the sort of disorienting nature of not knowing why

670
00:37:47,160 --> 00:37:50,719
Speaker 1: you're ditched by your very best friend. I mean, that's

671
00:37:50,760 --> 00:37:52,759
Speaker 1: just one of those weird things that can happen in

672
00:37:52,800 --> 00:37:55,200
Speaker 1: life where you have these relationships at end and you

673
00:37:55,360 --> 00:37:58,000
Speaker 1: still process them for years, I think, and you don't

674
00:37:58,200 --> 00:38:02,239
Speaker 1: really have answers, you know, just an outcome of and

675
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,120
Speaker 1: a sort of sacrifice that Anna has to make in

676
00:38:05,200 --> 00:38:09,920
Speaker 1: order to protect her anonymity as she explores her true passion,

677
00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,520
Speaker 1: and that's sort of what we tried to explore most

678
00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:15,359
Speaker 1: of all in this episode. I think that comes through

679
00:38:15,400 --> 00:38:17,680
Speaker 1: and you do see it's sort of sort of the

680
00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:21,160
Speaker 1: collateral damage of all of that kind of mountain in

681
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:24,400
Speaker 1: this episode. It's really well done. So now let's jump

682
00:38:24,480 --> 00:38:29,719
Speaker 1: to ending the show. Let's talk about the endpoint for

683
00:38:29,760 --> 00:38:33,439
Speaker 1: the narrative and how you're balancing your plans with this

684
00:38:33,520 --> 00:38:36,799
Speaker 1: trial with this real life. You know, there's still this

685
00:38:36,920 --> 00:38:39,879
Speaker 1: organic story that keeps going and going and going. Right. Yeah,

686
00:38:39,920 --> 00:38:43,080
Speaker 1: it felt like the trial was ended up being the

687
00:38:43,200 --> 00:38:46,479
Speaker 1: right endpoint because it was sort of the culmination of

688
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:51,239
Speaker 1: for everyone's characters having to make decisions about how they

689
00:38:51,280 --> 00:38:55,920
Speaker 1: felt about Anna, which I said, Team Anna, Is this

690
00:38:56,040 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: a team Rachel? Yeah, I'm Switzerland in all this whether

691
00:39:03,200 --> 00:39:05,319
Speaker 1: or not they're going to support Anna and to what

692
00:39:05,480 --> 00:39:08,839
Speaker 1: extent and what they need Anna for and especially for

693
00:39:08,920 --> 00:39:13,719
Speaker 1: Todd specifically and what he projects onto Anna for his

694
00:39:13,840 --> 00:39:16,560
Speaker 1: own needs. And I think there's a lot of that,

695
00:39:17,239 --> 00:39:20,000
Speaker 1: a lot of talk of Anna's father in that last episode,

696
00:39:20,040 --> 00:39:22,719
Speaker 1: and I think when I look at that, I'm like, really,

697
00:39:22,760 --> 00:39:25,279
Speaker 1: that's all more important to Todd than it is to Anna.

698
00:39:25,920 --> 00:39:28,360
Speaker 1: You know, it's interesting, like what he thinks she needs

699
00:39:28,400 --> 00:39:30,239
Speaker 1: and and well he is like a father figure to

700
00:39:30,320 --> 00:39:32,480
Speaker 1: her too in a sense, or he's trying to guide

701
00:39:32,480 --> 00:39:35,360
Speaker 1: her in a kind almost fatherly way, but he just

702
00:39:35,440 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: keeps butting up against her obstinates. Yeah, but does she

703
00:39:38,760 --> 00:39:41,960
Speaker 1: need that or does he need that? Does she see

704
00:39:42,000 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: that he needs to be that part? And so plays

705
00:39:45,160 --> 00:39:48,759
Speaker 1: you know, the sort of difficult but charming daughtering sort

706
00:39:48,760 --> 00:39:52,080
Speaker 1: of going back and forth, and also just helps the

707
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:55,880
Speaker 1: overall question of Anna too is like is she this

708
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,120
Speaker 1: sort of innocent kid who tried to do something big

709
00:39:59,239 --> 00:40:04,200
Speaker 1: or is she a completely manipulative little monster for lack

710
00:40:04,239 --> 00:40:07,200
Speaker 1: of a correct psychological term for her, you know what

711
00:40:07,239 --> 00:40:10,239
Speaker 1: I mean, Like that's the question this series. And so

712
00:40:10,440 --> 00:40:13,960
Speaker 1: I think the trial helps all of us and the characters,

713
00:40:14,080 --> 00:40:17,480
Speaker 1: especially Delvin, and try and answer that question for ourselves.

714
00:40:17,880 --> 00:40:20,480
Speaker 1: And in speaking of Todd, of course this her attorney

715
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:23,120
Speaker 1: tell me about crafting him for the screen, because you

716
00:40:23,160 --> 00:40:25,319
Speaker 1: also had access to him in real life. He's quite

717
00:40:25,320 --> 00:40:28,800
Speaker 1: a character and I'm wondering how you balanced the real Todd,

718
00:40:28,800 --> 00:40:30,480
Speaker 1: who was very willing to talk with you and was

719
00:40:30,560 --> 00:40:33,680
Speaker 1: very open and suring his experiences with the Todd that

720
00:40:33,719 --> 00:40:35,560
Speaker 1: we see on screen, and what do they have in common.

721
00:40:35,640 --> 00:40:37,680
Speaker 1: We'll start with what they don't have in common, which

722
00:40:37,719 --> 00:40:40,520
Speaker 1: is that the Todd we see on screen curses less,

723
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:45,000
Speaker 1: and he curses a lot on screen. And he's a

724
00:40:45,120 --> 00:40:48,520
Speaker 1: very very funny person and loyal and sharp and and

725
00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: a very good attorney. Part of that is just the

726
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:55,319
Speaker 1: great job Arean did with the character and the sort

727
00:40:55,320 --> 00:40:58,640
Speaker 1: of policy over here and Shonda Landa's we write the

728
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:01,560
Speaker 1: words and we don't tell the actors how to play them.

729
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:04,399
Speaker 1: And so I love what he did. I think it's

730
00:41:04,440 --> 00:41:08,560
Speaker 1: different than Todd, but it's very I think, soulful and

731
00:41:09,239 --> 00:41:13,440
Speaker 1: smart and really accurate to the spirit of Todd. And

732
00:41:13,520 --> 00:41:16,799
Speaker 1: so I love seeing that. I love putting something on

733
00:41:16,840 --> 00:41:19,640
Speaker 1: the page and sort of approximating a person and feeling

734
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:22,200
Speaker 1: in your own feelings about it. But then you hand

735
00:41:22,239 --> 00:41:23,960
Speaker 1: it over to an actor and they do their own thing.

736
00:41:24,040 --> 00:41:27,480
Speaker 1: And it's been a joy on this show throughout. Yeah,

737
00:41:27,480 --> 00:41:31,200
Speaker 1: and Todd really does seem to care, you know, while

738
00:41:31,239 --> 00:41:33,200
Speaker 1: he enjoys some of the limelight, and you know, this

739
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:36,600
Speaker 1: is kind of a a milestone event for his career,

740
00:41:36,680 --> 00:41:38,879
Speaker 1: he really does ultimately care about her, and I think

741
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:42,360
Speaker 1: that does come through. He really does, and I felt

742
00:41:42,400 --> 00:41:44,440
Speaker 1: that when I hung out with him at the trial

743
00:41:45,160 --> 00:41:49,239
Speaker 1: entirely even as sort of abusive, truly abusive towards him,

744
00:41:49,320 --> 00:41:52,000
Speaker 1: and it could be We talked to the jury after

745
00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,600
Speaker 1: the trial as well. We kind of spread out and

746
00:41:54,640 --> 00:41:56,520
Speaker 1: tried to talk to jurors, some of the journalists and

747
00:41:56,560 --> 00:42:00,000
Speaker 1: I and they talked about how they could hear them

748
00:42:00,080 --> 00:42:03,080
Speaker 1: fighting through the walls, like as they were, yeah, in

749
00:42:03,160 --> 00:42:06,920
Speaker 1: their jury holding room waiting for Todd and Anna to

750
00:42:07,280 --> 00:42:09,439
Speaker 1: come out so they could start the trial. They would

751
00:42:09,480 --> 00:42:12,680
Speaker 1: hear them screaming at each other, Oh my goodness, almost

752
00:42:12,680 --> 00:42:15,960
Speaker 1: like family members. Yeah. Yeah, but he I think, you know,

753
00:42:16,160 --> 00:42:19,720
Speaker 1: he's Todd is very charmed by her as well, and

754
00:42:20,800 --> 00:42:23,520
Speaker 1: you know, it keeps it professional, is it's not a

755
00:42:23,640 --> 00:42:27,920
Speaker 1: familial relationship at all, but continues to this very moment

756
00:42:28,040 --> 00:42:32,120
Speaker 1: to support her and be an ear for her and

757
00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:35,600
Speaker 1: look out for her, which is beyond his call of duty.

758
00:42:35,840 --> 00:42:37,680
Speaker 1: So Matt, I would love to hear some details about

759
00:42:37,719 --> 00:42:40,200
Speaker 1: what it was like to be at the trial in

760
00:42:40,239 --> 00:42:43,400
Speaker 1: the courtroom and witness sing all of this sort of

761
00:42:43,400 --> 00:42:47,239
Speaker 1: circus like beer and the tone, the energy, what was

762
00:42:47,239 --> 00:42:50,960
Speaker 1: the vibe being there? It was chaos. Honestly at the beginning.

763
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,480
Speaker 1: Everything that happened in the episode is true. That she

764
00:42:54,520 --> 00:42:56,920
Speaker 1: would not come out, which felt so crazy to me.

765
00:42:57,000 --> 00:43:00,839
Speaker 1: And then like not many people there maybe two journalists

766
00:43:00,880 --> 00:43:04,480
Speaker 1: and a few photographers and three or four other people

767
00:43:04,560 --> 00:43:06,120
Speaker 1: kind of thing. So it was it was very empty,

768
00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:07,879
Speaker 1: which was surprising to me too, because I thought there'd

769
00:43:07,920 --> 00:43:10,120
Speaker 1: be tons of interest in this case. I remember thinking like, oh,

770
00:43:10,160 --> 00:43:12,920
Speaker 1: I'll have to get tickets or you know, no, no

771
00:43:12,960 --> 00:43:16,239
Speaker 1: one showed up. This is not a gut start for

772
00:43:16,239 --> 00:43:19,640
Speaker 1: our team. I'm very underwoned without proparation. On day one,

773
00:43:19,840 --> 00:43:30,120
Speaker 1: we have to go. No, don't crowd my entrance. My

774
00:43:30,160 --> 00:43:35,960
Speaker 1: first impressions were that Todd was completely like being incompetent

775
00:43:36,040 --> 00:43:39,440
Speaker 1: to be frank, I just didn't know this character well

776
00:43:39,560 --> 00:43:41,239
Speaker 1: enough at this point. I didn't know that what she

777
00:43:41,400 --> 00:43:44,680
Speaker 1: was capable of, that anyone could be that obstinate that

778
00:43:44,880 --> 00:43:48,920
Speaker 1: like she's going to hold up her own trial self sabotage. Really,

779
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:53,040
Speaker 1: it just felt completely insane to me. This whole business

780
00:43:53,080 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 1: with the clothes felt completely self destructive and crazy at

781
00:43:57,760 --> 00:44:02,160
Speaker 1: the time, and so I, I, you know, wrongfully immediately

782
00:44:02,280 --> 00:44:04,200
Speaker 1: kind of blame the attorney for not be able to

783
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,759
Speaker 1: handle his client a little bit, and so he just

784
00:44:06,800 --> 00:44:08,759
Speaker 1: felt like he was flailing, which he was at the

785
00:44:08,800 --> 00:44:13,040
Speaker 1: moment watching this literally running down the you know, exchanging

786
00:44:13,080 --> 00:44:19,840
Speaker 1: of bags of clothes and just to get the trial started. Uh,

787
00:44:19,880 --> 00:44:22,279
Speaker 1: I was sort of blown away. And then and then

788
00:44:22,280 --> 00:44:27,359
Speaker 1: the opening statements began at Todd's brilliant every person that

789
00:44:27,480 --> 00:44:30,640
Speaker 1: walks in here and sits in that chair wanted to

790
00:44:30,680 --> 00:44:34,239
Speaker 1: give Anna money because they wanted to be in business

791
00:44:34,400 --> 00:44:39,800
Speaker 1: with her, to be close to Anna Delvy, the German heiress.

792
00:44:40,680 --> 00:44:43,280
Speaker 1: Would they have wanted to be in business with Anna Sorkin,

793
00:44:44,160 --> 00:44:49,239
Speaker 1: a middle class foreigner. No, Anna had to fake it

794
00:44:50,080 --> 00:44:53,600
Speaker 1: until she made it. Think youn hear a pin drop.

795
00:44:53,680 --> 00:44:56,680
Speaker 1: The entire jury is laughing where they need to laugh,

796
00:44:57,120 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 1: and nodding where they need to not. And East owns

797
00:45:00,160 --> 00:45:03,239
Speaker 1: the room in a way that I felt throughout my

798
00:45:03,280 --> 00:45:07,960
Speaker 1: body was incredible. Within an hour or two, he had

799
00:45:07,960 --> 00:45:10,880
Speaker 1: completely changed my impression of him or and then just

800
00:45:11,040 --> 00:45:14,839
Speaker 1: the weird thing of like Anna would do this thing

801
00:45:14,880 --> 00:45:18,279
Speaker 1: where she I think because Jessica had told her who

802
00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 1: I was, so she did know who you were. She

803
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:22,560
Speaker 1: didn't know my name but she knew that I was

804
00:45:23,600 --> 00:45:27,799
Speaker 1: like a representative of this project, and so she would

805
00:45:27,880 --> 00:45:31,279
Speaker 1: kind of turn around and give me these looks like

806
00:45:32,280 --> 00:45:39,120
Speaker 1: pouty or flirty or someone like all of these different looks,

807
00:45:39,120 --> 00:45:41,600
Speaker 1: and she was sort of trying to look engage a

808
00:45:41,640 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: response for me, almost like she was like writing the

809
00:45:44,280 --> 00:45:47,880
Speaker 1: character for you, for you to take notes. Yeah, you know.

810
00:45:47,920 --> 00:45:50,680
Speaker 1: And what I found out later was because she asked Jessica,

811
00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:54,279
Speaker 1: she said, I know how the jury feels about me.

812
00:45:54,880 --> 00:45:56,839
Speaker 1: That's part of her gift is sort of being able

813
00:45:56,880 --> 00:46:01,879
Speaker 1: to read emotions and read a room. But I don't

814
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 1: know how she called me Rosy Cheeks. I don't know

815
00:46:04,160 --> 00:46:09,279
Speaker 1: how Rosy Cheeks feels about me for Rosy Cheeks. So

816
00:46:09,400 --> 00:46:12,279
Speaker 1: I felt good about that because my journalism trading of

817
00:46:12,400 --> 00:46:15,239
Speaker 1: just I just kind of gave nothing back. So it's

818
00:46:15,239 --> 00:46:18,480
Speaker 1: fascinating to witness her try on these different faces in

819
00:46:18,600 --> 00:46:20,960
Speaker 1: order to get a response from me and try and

820
00:46:21,000 --> 00:46:23,720
Speaker 1: engage in a way that told me so much about

821
00:46:23,719 --> 00:46:27,400
Speaker 1: her character, and then realizing that all of those emotions

822
00:46:27,400 --> 00:46:32,279
Speaker 1: were faked in order to try and get inside my

823
00:46:32,320 --> 00:46:35,759
Speaker 1: head and figure out which methodology she might be able

824
00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,879
Speaker 1: to use emotionally doing engage with with me and as

825
00:46:40,920 --> 00:46:42,720
Speaker 1: we of course come to learn about Anna in the series,

826
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:44,320
Speaker 1: the worst thing that someone can do to her is

827
00:46:44,360 --> 00:46:47,839
Speaker 1: ignore her, right, Yeah, yeah, Yeah, I just extinctively kind

828
00:46:47,840 --> 00:46:51,600
Speaker 1: of just didn't I want to engage in any form.

829
00:46:51,640 --> 00:46:53,600
Speaker 1: You know. It's the whole journalist thing of just not

830
00:46:53,680 --> 00:46:56,520
Speaker 1: being part of the story too. That's my training, and

831
00:46:56,600 --> 00:46:59,160
Speaker 1: so that was what I tried to do. The best

832
00:46:59,200 --> 00:47:01,839
Speaker 1: was just witnessed. At what point did you find out

833
00:47:01,880 --> 00:47:04,719
Speaker 1: about the Instagram account? Was it when the trial was

834
00:47:04,760 --> 00:47:06,880
Speaker 1: going on that people were sort of buzzing about that.

835
00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:09,600
Speaker 1: We found out about the incident account when the trial

836
00:47:09,760 --> 00:47:13,600
Speaker 1: was going on, and literally watched more people start to

837
00:47:13,640 --> 00:47:16,560
Speaker 1: show up to the trial too, and and it sort

838
00:47:16,560 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 1: of fed into media interests as well. And so it

839
00:47:20,440 --> 00:47:22,520
Speaker 1: was a move on her part. It was a move,

840
00:47:23,560 --> 00:47:26,000
Speaker 1: that's for sure. I did want to ask there's a

841
00:47:26,040 --> 00:47:29,120
Speaker 1: really scary bailiff in the show where she screams at

842
00:47:29,120 --> 00:47:33,680
Speaker 1: everyone to sit down. Let's bring in the jury. Everybody

843
00:47:33,840 --> 00:47:41,319
Speaker 1: sit down now? Was that based in reality? What did

844
00:47:41,360 --> 00:47:43,879
Speaker 1: they really have to wrangle people that intensely to get

845
00:47:43,880 --> 00:47:46,160
Speaker 1: them to behave and be quiet? Yeah? In fact, I

846
00:47:46,239 --> 00:47:48,600
Speaker 1: kept asking the director to tell her to go even

847
00:47:48,600 --> 00:47:51,520
Speaker 1: bigger with it because it was yeah and then and

848
00:47:51,560 --> 00:47:53,719
Speaker 1: the actor did a terrific job with it, but it

849
00:47:53,800 --> 00:47:56,400
Speaker 1: was even it was even louder in real life, and

850
00:47:56,480 --> 00:48:00,440
Speaker 1: the judge was as sweet and direct and funny and

851
00:48:00,760 --> 00:48:05,200
Speaker 1: sort of in control of the proceedings. Are actor did

852
00:48:05,200 --> 00:48:07,920
Speaker 1: a wonderful job of capturing that. So and tell me

853
00:48:08,040 --> 00:48:10,680
Speaker 1: just in terms of timeline when the trial took place

854
00:48:10,880 --> 00:48:13,480
Speaker 1: versus where you were in production or in the writer's

855
00:48:13,560 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 1: room at that point, and how those two concurrent timelines

856
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:19,160
Speaker 1: interacted with each other. We were very early stages of

857
00:48:19,160 --> 00:48:22,680
Speaker 1: writing when the trial was taking place, and so we

858
00:48:22,760 --> 00:48:26,680
Speaker 1: had really great stuff from Jessica Pressler. It felt like

859
00:48:26,760 --> 00:48:30,240
Speaker 1: we have a whole world, but we don't know what happened.

860
00:48:30,320 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: So I'm glad that we were able to wait for

861
00:48:32,760 --> 00:48:36,600
Speaker 1: that trial in order to write this because it informs

862
00:48:36,680 --> 00:48:39,960
Speaker 1: so much, and it really informed a lot of what

863
00:48:40,000 --> 00:48:41,799
Speaker 1: we did, and then we sort of backed into it.

864
00:48:42,120 --> 00:48:44,319
Speaker 1: I see. So it's almost as if the finale took

865
00:48:44,360 --> 00:48:49,440
Speaker 1: shape and then you retroactively crafted your ark for the show. Yeah,

866
00:48:49,480 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 1: pretty much. Yeah, I wouldn't say that it was that

867
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:58,120
Speaker 1: direct of a process, but sure, yeah, let's and there's

868
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,240
Speaker 1: a great scene that I loved where Vivian is slacking

869
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:04,759
Speaker 1: her colleagues the verdicts as they come down, and I

870
00:49:04,800 --> 00:49:07,720
Speaker 1: hear you were actually doing that with your colleagues as well.

871
00:49:07,840 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 1: Is that true? Yes? I was trying to include them

872
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:13,319
Speaker 1: as much as possible, So yes, I was slacking them

873
00:49:13,560 --> 00:49:16,879
Speaker 1: live as the verdict was coming down. Yeah. And then

874
00:49:16,880 --> 00:49:20,080
Speaker 1: Shawnda asked me to put that in the show. Right, Well,

875
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,320
Speaker 1: you were the correspondent, right, I was the correspondent reporting

876
00:49:23,400 --> 00:49:26,960
Speaker 1: live from the scene. Yeah. Yeah, Yeah. One amazing experience

877
00:49:27,040 --> 00:49:30,839
Speaker 1: was they rebuilt the court room exactly how it was,

878
00:49:30,920 --> 00:49:34,880
Speaker 1: so I don't know if that ever influences the actors

879
00:49:34,920 --> 00:49:37,799
Speaker 1: at all, but it felt so real, you know, just

880
00:49:37,880 --> 00:49:40,840
Speaker 1: kind of a dirty New York courtroom, and that in

881
00:49:40,960 --> 00:49:44,719
Speaker 1: and of itself was really strange to be shooting and

882
00:49:44,760 --> 00:49:48,359
Speaker 1: what felt like the actual courtroom. Right, And I'd love

883
00:49:48,400 --> 00:49:52,439
Speaker 1: to talk about the final scene between Vivian and Anna. Yeah,

884
00:49:53,200 --> 00:49:59,600
Speaker 1: I'm I just wanted to say I'm sorry for how

885
00:50:01,200 --> 00:50:05,640
Speaker 1: everything turned out. For all of this, I thought you

886
00:50:05,760 --> 00:50:08,400
Speaker 1: thought what I know, you didn't think you were going

887
00:50:08,400 --> 00:50:14,880
Speaker 1: to rescue me, and I've no touching. Tell me how

888
00:50:14,960 --> 00:50:19,480
Speaker 1: you crafted that moment. Tell me about your intentions and

889
00:50:19,480 --> 00:50:22,239
Speaker 1: what were your hopes for tying the story up. I

890
00:50:22,280 --> 00:50:26,279
Speaker 1: think the whole question of the series from Vivian's perspective,

891
00:50:26,520 --> 00:50:30,120
Speaker 1: is is there anything behind this the artifice of Anna

892
00:50:30,160 --> 00:50:33,680
Speaker 1: Delve The hope of that scene is to really get

893
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:37,280
Speaker 1: to the core of that, or to help the audience

894
00:50:37,360 --> 00:50:41,680
Speaker 1: sort of ask and answer the question for themselves. Shanda

895
00:50:42,680 --> 00:50:44,560
Speaker 1: and I went back and forth a lot on the

896
00:50:44,560 --> 00:50:47,000
Speaker 1: scene and worked on this scene together because they really

897
00:50:47,040 --> 00:50:50,200
Speaker 1: did have to sort of address some major stuff for us.

898
00:50:50,200 --> 00:50:52,320
Speaker 1: I think what we found is that we're at the

899
00:50:52,440 --> 00:50:55,560
Speaker 1: end of this series, but do we really have an

900
00:50:55,560 --> 00:50:59,120
Speaker 1: answer for who Anna Delvi is and whether or not

901
00:50:59,200 --> 00:51:03,720
Speaker 1: everything is trans actional? And given that Vivian so gotten

902
00:51:03,800 --> 00:51:08,480
Speaker 1: so emotionally invested, feeling overly emotionally invested, that feeling of

903
00:51:08,520 --> 00:51:12,680
Speaker 1: like have I done that to a charlatan or somebody

904
00:51:12,680 --> 00:51:17,520
Speaker 1: who's incapable of emotional investment? Like and is there a

905
00:51:17,560 --> 00:51:19,919
Speaker 1: little bit of Anna in me? Like did I take

906
00:51:19,960 --> 00:51:22,640
Speaker 1: advantage of a situation to my own benefit but hurt

907
00:51:22,680 --> 00:51:25,440
Speaker 1: the other party involved in the same way that you

908
00:51:25,480 --> 00:51:28,200
Speaker 1: could say that Anna Delvi did with Rachel? And that

909
00:51:28,440 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 1: what has become of me? But I think really at

910
00:51:31,400 --> 00:51:34,680
Speaker 1: the course, like is this person a person? And then

911
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:39,640
Speaker 1: from Anna's perspectives, just like do I need people or

912
00:51:39,719 --> 00:51:45,120
Speaker 1: is everything just situational? And I can toss them aside.

913
00:51:45,440 --> 00:51:48,400
Speaker 1: I don't like you. You have terrible shoes. This was

914
00:51:48,440 --> 00:51:52,480
Speaker 1: a transaction. We had to deal. Yeah, No, it's okay.

915
00:51:52,760 --> 00:51:54,799
Speaker 1: You might good on your part with the deal. You

916
00:51:54,840 --> 00:52:03,719
Speaker 1: said to the famous and you did no touching. You'll

917
00:52:03,719 --> 00:52:09,399
Speaker 1: come visit. No touching, you'll come visit. When something has

918
00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:11,480
Speaker 1: a fine point, like the end of Lost or the

919
00:52:11,560 --> 00:52:13,719
Speaker 1: end of Breaking Bad, you can debate the merit of

920
00:52:13,719 --> 00:52:16,040
Speaker 1: how they ended the show, but there isn't like that

921
00:52:16,120 --> 00:52:19,719
Speaker 1: discussion possibility after the fact, whereas here it's this is

922
00:52:19,760 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: a moral debate. Yeah, and and we are just really

923
00:52:23,200 --> 00:52:27,000
Speaker 1: trying to say, here's what confused and fascinated us, and

924
00:52:27,040 --> 00:52:30,239
Speaker 1: here's what we think could have happened, and here's what

925
00:52:30,280 --> 00:52:33,000
Speaker 1: we imagine is through these real people's lives, like how

926
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:35,080
Speaker 1: you would feel and what you would do. So that

927
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,759
Speaker 1: for us was really the most important thing, was to

928
00:52:37,840 --> 00:52:42,399
Speaker 1: sort of give people something to dive into themselves and

929
00:52:42,400 --> 00:52:45,719
Speaker 1: and answer for themselves from their own experience. So you're

930
00:52:45,719 --> 00:52:47,879
Speaker 1: glad you made the lead from journalism to TV writer,

931
00:52:48,640 --> 00:52:52,400
Speaker 1: never gone back. Well, thank you so much, Matt. This

932
00:52:52,440 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: has been incredible and such a learning experience for anyone

933
00:52:55,280 --> 00:52:57,960
Speaker 1: who's watched the show to hear even just a glimpse

934
00:52:57,960 --> 00:52:59,759
Speaker 1: of how it was put together. It's really fantastic. So

935
00:52:59,840 --> 00:53:02,200
Speaker 1: think you so much. So nice talking to you, Stacy.

936
00:53:02,239 --> 00:53:11,360
Speaker 1: I really appreciate it. Thank you so much for joining

937
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:14,839
Speaker 1: us for Inventing Anna the official podcast. I hope we've

938
00:53:14,880 --> 00:53:17,439
Speaker 1: quenched some of your thirst for Anna delby and giving

939
00:53:17,480 --> 00:53:20,600
Speaker 1: you juicy details about the making of this intriguing series.

940
00:53:21,400 --> 00:53:23,920
Speaker 1: If you're new to this podcast, there are actually hours

941
00:53:23,920 --> 00:53:27,640
Speaker 1: and hours of Inventing Anna content to enjoy, including interviews

942
00:53:27,680 --> 00:53:30,719
Speaker 1: with the real people portrayed in the show, conversations with

943
00:53:30,800 --> 00:53:34,759
Speaker 1: cast members, insights from creator Shaunda Rhymes, and so much more.

944
00:53:35,600 --> 00:53:37,600
Speaker 1: It's been a total blast being your guide on this

945
00:53:37,640 --> 00:53:40,880
Speaker 1: wild tour behind the scenes of Inventing Anna. Thank you

946
00:53:40,920 --> 00:53:46,759
Speaker 1: so much for having me. If you've enjoyed this podcast,

947
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:50,960
Speaker 1: please leave us a rate or review, share, subscribe like

948
00:53:51,480 --> 00:53:54,720
Speaker 1: all of that good stuff. And if you haven't finished

949
00:53:54,719 --> 00:53:58,520
Speaker 1: watching Shawna Lands Inventing Anna on Netflix, I recommend you

950
00:53:58,600 --> 00:54:05,320
Speaker 1: go do that. Inventing Anna. The Official podcast is executive

951
00:54:05,320 --> 00:54:10,080
Speaker 1: produced by Sandy Bailey, Lauren Homan, Tyler Clang, and Gabrielle Collins.

952
00:54:10,520 --> 00:54:13,520
Speaker 1: Our producer and editor is Nicholas Harder, and the show

953
00:54:13,600 --> 00:54:23,000
Speaker 1: is produced and hosted by me Stacy Wilson Hunt. Inventing Anna.

954
00:54:23,080 --> 00:54:26,160
Speaker 1: The Official Podcast is a production of Schondeland Audio in

955
00:54:26,200 --> 00:54:30,280
Speaker 1: partnership with I Heart Radio. For more podcasts from Schondeland Audio,

956
00:54:30,640 --> 00:54:33,680
Speaker 1: visit the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever

957
00:54:33,760 --> 00:54:35,080
Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.