1 00:00:17,920 --> 00:00:21,480 Speaker 1: It's May thirtieth, eighteen ninety three, about ten months after 2 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:26,160 Speaker 1: someone murdered Andrew and Abby Borden with an axe. Andrew's daughter, 3 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,200 Speaker 1: Lizzie is about to stand trial for the gruesome crime. 4 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,600 Speaker 1: She's been in custody for months, and her jury is 5 00:00:32,640 --> 00:00:36,280 Speaker 1: about to be selected. But then a young woman is 6 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:40,400 Speaker 1: killed just two miles away. Bertha Manchester was twenty two 7 00:00:40,479 --> 00:00:43,800 Speaker 1: years old, the daughter of a Fall River farmer. Her 8 00:00:43,840 --> 00:00:48,000 Speaker 1: body was discovered in their kitchen, also bludgeoned with an axe. 9 00:00:48,520 --> 00:00:52,160 Speaker 1: There was blood everywhere, and some of the family's valuables 10 00:00:52,159 --> 00:00:57,640 Speaker 1: were missing. This story is mentioned sometimes because, with Lizzie 11 00:00:57,640 --> 00:01:01,640 Speaker 1: Borden's trial about to start and lessen week, it seemed 12 00:01:01,720 --> 00:01:04,520 Speaker 1: like too great of a coincidence to many people in 13 00:01:04,600 --> 00:01:08,919 Speaker 1: Fall River. Another brutal murder in the same small town 14 00:01:09,440 --> 00:01:12,200 Speaker 1: also committed around the same time of day as the 15 00:01:12,240 --> 00:01:16,039 Speaker 1: Bordon murders, and more importantly, carried out with an axe. 16 00:01:19,560 --> 00:01:22,520 Speaker 1: It couldn't have been Lizzie Borden this time, though, because 17 00:01:22,560 --> 00:01:25,080 Speaker 1: she was in police custody, as she had been for 18 00:01:25,160 --> 00:01:30,040 Speaker 1: almost a year. Would the similarities with Bertha Manchester's murder 19 00:01:30,360 --> 00:01:37,160 Speaker 1: end up having an impact on Lizzie Bordon's jury. Police 20 00:01:37,160 --> 00:01:40,520 Speaker 1: and fall River were certainly concerned that Bertha's case might 21 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: influence things, so they poured themselves into Bertha's case. They 22 00:01:44,400 --> 00:01:47,240 Speaker 1: seemed to think that a quick resolution would help remove 23 00:01:47,280 --> 00:01:50,600 Speaker 1: the mystery around the second axe murderer. So here we 24 00:01:50,640 --> 00:01:55,560 Speaker 1: go the end of Bertha Manchester's story. Her father, Stephen Manchester, 25 00:01:55,920 --> 00:02:00,400 Speaker 1: was initially considered suspicious, but police apparently ruled him out quickly. 26 00:02:00,920 --> 00:02:04,440 Speaker 1: Bertha's eleven year old brother had reacted almost gleefully on 27 00:02:04,520 --> 00:02:07,600 Speaker 1: the day of the murder, which definitely seemed odd, but 28 00:02:07,840 --> 00:02:10,720 Speaker 1: as Paul Holes and I often say, it's hard to 29 00:02:10,760 --> 00:02:13,600 Speaker 1: predict how someone will act when a loved one is 30 00:02:13,639 --> 00:02:17,440 Speaker 1: subjected to trauma, so police ruled out the brother. Also, 31 00:02:18,880 --> 00:02:22,080 Speaker 1: Bertha never left the farm. She had no boyfriends that 32 00:02:22,160 --> 00:02:25,880 Speaker 1: anyone knew of, few close friends, and she seemed to. 33 00:02:25,840 --> 00:02:26,840 Speaker 2: Have no enemies. 34 00:02:27,600 --> 00:02:31,560 Speaker 1: But it seems likely that whoever did murder her must 35 00:02:31,560 --> 00:02:36,560 Speaker 1: have known the farm fairly well. Here's why it appeared 36 00:02:36,560 --> 00:02:39,480 Speaker 1: that the killer likely forced his way through the kitchen door, 37 00:02:39,800 --> 00:02:45,600 Speaker 1: not the front door. Yes, he might have seen Bertha 38 00:02:45,639 --> 00:02:49,000 Speaker 1: in the window stirring her gingerbread dough, but he also 39 00:02:49,160 --> 00:02:52,440 Speaker 1: knew to start out in that direction to find her. 40 00:02:53,600 --> 00:02:58,680 Speaker 1: The Manchester's dog reportedly barked just once. That's strange, and 41 00:02:58,760 --> 00:02:59,840 Speaker 1: the dog wasn't hurt. 42 00:03:00,800 --> 00:03:02,200 Speaker 2: Maybe it knew the man. 43 00:03:03,880 --> 00:03:07,080 Speaker 1: Also, after the killer murdered Bertha, it seems he spent 44 00:03:07,200 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: some time in the house looking for valuables. He must 45 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,400 Speaker 1: have known that only Stephen Manchester would be around that day, 46 00:03:14,880 --> 00:03:17,320 Speaker 1: and with him gone, the house. 47 00:03:17,080 --> 00:03:18,480 Speaker 2: Would be empty. 48 00:03:19,240 --> 00:03:21,680 Speaker 1: But robbery didn't seem to be a motive because he 49 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:27,560 Speaker 1: left behind some obviously valuable items. When the killer decided 50 00:03:27,560 --> 00:03:30,320 Speaker 1: to leave, he knew to exit through the kitchen and 51 00:03:30,440 --> 00:03:32,680 Speaker 1: out a door that faced the barn at the back. 52 00:03:34,720 --> 00:03:36,560 Speaker 1: The killer knew that on the other side of the 53 00:03:36,600 --> 00:03:39,200 Speaker 1: barn was a winding trail that would lead him to 54 00:03:39,280 --> 00:03:44,200 Speaker 1: a major street and to an undetected escape. This killer 55 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:48,200 Speaker 1: knew the farm, and with this assessment, police were now 56 00:03:48,240 --> 00:03:53,120 Speaker 1: searching for someone who hated the family, but not Bertha Manchester, 57 00:03:54,160 --> 00:04:05,000 Speaker 1: someone who hated her father. On Sunday, June fourth of 58 00:04:05,040 --> 00:04:08,240 Speaker 1: eighteen ninety three, the day before jury selection for Lizzie 59 00:04:08,240 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 1: Borden's trial, the Fall River Daily Herald evening edition featured 60 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:18,480 Speaker 1: a screaming headline captured Carrero in jail, charged with killing 61 00:04:18,520 --> 00:04:22,520 Speaker 1: Bertha Manchester. It was the same day that Bertha was 62 00:04:22,560 --> 00:04:25,800 Speaker 1: buried near her home in the Oak Grove Cemetery. The 63 00:04:25,839 --> 00:04:30,279 Speaker 1: investigation had lasted just five days, and very quickly police 64 00:04:30,279 --> 00:04:34,720 Speaker 1: had begun to suspect a disgruntled former employee of Stephen Manchester's, 65 00:04:35,120 --> 00:04:40,680 Speaker 1: a Portuguese immigrant named Jose Carrero de Mello. His capture 66 00:04:40,839 --> 00:04:44,760 Speaker 1: wasn't especially exciting, but it was intriguing. It was a 67 00:04:44,760 --> 00:04:48,520 Speaker 1: family drama. This is according to my favorite historical true 68 00:04:48,560 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 1: crime blog, Murder by Gaslight. The police contacted Jose's uncle, 69 00:04:53,720 --> 00:04:58,479 Speaker 1: Jacindo Munez Macado and Frank Macado Silva, a leader in 70 00:04:58,520 --> 00:05:02,240 Speaker 1: the Portuguese American community, and they persuaded the pair to 71 00:05:02,320 --> 00:05:05,479 Speaker 1: tell Jose that they needed him as a witness to 72 00:05:05,560 --> 00:05:09,000 Speaker 1: a horse theft and they would pay a hefty witness fee. 73 00:05:09,560 --> 00:05:13,000 Speaker 1: On Saturday night, June fifth, Jose went to the police 74 00:05:13,000 --> 00:05:16,440 Speaker 1: station with his uncle, and he had no idea that 75 00:05:16,520 --> 00:05:19,600 Speaker 1: he was a murder suspect. This was not even a 76 00:05:19,640 --> 00:05:24,120 Speaker 1: week after Bertha's murder, so this happened very quickly. It 77 00:05:24,200 --> 00:05:27,400 Speaker 1: turns out that Stephen Manchester didn't pay people very well, 78 00:05:27,680 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: and he wasn't very sympathetic, so police had focused their 79 00:05:30,720 --> 00:05:34,640 Speaker 1: investigation on some of his former employees, the ones who 80 00:05:34,720 --> 00:05:38,680 Speaker 1: never stuck around for very long. Stephen Manchester told a 81 00:05:38,720 --> 00:05:42,600 Speaker 1: newspaper quote, I can't remember the names of these Frenchmen 82 00:05:42,680 --> 00:05:45,599 Speaker 1: and Portuguese I have had. Half of the time, I 83 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:49,800 Speaker 1: don't know them. I have had Antoine's and Joe's and George's. 84 00:05:50,200 --> 00:05:52,840 Speaker 1: The police have been pestering me all day to remember 85 00:05:52,880 --> 00:05:55,360 Speaker 1: some of the names, but I cannot break my jaw 86 00:05:55,480 --> 00:05:58,240 Speaker 1: over their names. I always pay a man what I 87 00:05:58,240 --> 00:06:01,040 Speaker 1: think he is worth, and if he don't like it, 88 00:06:01,040 --> 00:06:04,400 Speaker 1: it don't make any difference. He won't get any more. 89 00:06:05,520 --> 00:06:08,240 Speaker 1: Carrera de Mello had been placed at the top of 90 00:06:08,279 --> 00:06:11,360 Speaker 1: the suspect list because he had recently left the farm 91 00:06:11,839 --> 00:06:16,760 Speaker 1: very angry over money and since Bertha's murder. Jose had 92 00:06:16,800 --> 00:06:21,320 Speaker 1: gone missing. When he was discovered in nearby Taunton, his 93 00:06:21,440 --> 00:06:25,479 Speaker 1: uncle agreed to bring him to the station peacefully. Jose 94 00:06:25,760 --> 00:06:30,159 Speaker 1: was reportedly interrogated by the local police for four hours. 95 00:06:30,640 --> 00:06:33,680 Speaker 1: These were the same investigators who were assigned to the 96 00:06:33,720 --> 00:06:37,520 Speaker 1: Borden murders. There were four detectives and four captains in 97 00:06:37,560 --> 00:06:40,560 Speaker 1: the room with him, as well as a stenographer who 98 00:06:40,600 --> 00:06:45,760 Speaker 1: took copious notes. There was little information for hours until 99 00:06:45,839 --> 00:06:49,480 Speaker 1: detectives in Fall River reported to the police station they 100 00:06:49,520 --> 00:06:55,239 Speaker 1: had found something. On the day of Bertha Manchester's murder, 101 00:06:55,360 --> 00:06:57,919 Speaker 1: Jose was hoping to buy a new pair of shoes 102 00:06:58,279 --> 00:07:00,600 Speaker 1: and he ended up negotiating with the saale salesman at 103 00:07:00,600 --> 00:07:03,880 Speaker 1: a shoe store. There was another Portuguese man there who 104 00:07:03,920 --> 00:07:08,520 Speaker 1: helped to translate. As part of his payment, Jose offered 105 00:07:08,520 --> 00:07:11,640 Speaker 1: the man behind the counter what's called a trade dollar, 106 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: which was a silver coin, and then he also handed 107 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:18,680 Speaker 1: the salesman a fifty cent piece with a tiny hole 108 00:07:18,720 --> 00:07:22,800 Speaker 1: in it, called a plugged half dollar. The salesman said 109 00:07:22,840 --> 00:07:25,400 Speaker 1: no to this. The price of silver had gone down, 110 00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:28,280 Speaker 1: so the trade dollar wasn't worth a dollar, and the 111 00:07:28,320 --> 00:07:30,920 Speaker 1: fifty cent piece was worthless because it had a hole 112 00:07:30,960 --> 00:07:33,440 Speaker 1: in it. But the shoe dealer was in a rush 113 00:07:33,480 --> 00:07:36,640 Speaker 1: to get to the races, so begrudgingly he took the 114 00:07:36,720 --> 00:07:40,800 Speaker 1: money as well as two quarters, and that was Jose's mistake. 115 00:07:41,400 --> 00:07:44,280 Speaker 1: Police showed the money to Bertha's sister, Jenny, and as 116 00:07:44,320 --> 00:07:47,400 Speaker 1: she looked down at the coins, she recognized the date 117 00:07:47,600 --> 00:07:51,400 Speaker 1: on the trade dollar eighteen seventy eight, and of course 118 00:07:51,560 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 1: not everyone had a fifty cent piece with a hole 119 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:57,440 Speaker 1: in it. She told police that her father had given 120 00:07:57,440 --> 00:08:03,280 Speaker 1: the coins to Bertha. Jose sat quietly as the detectives 121 00:08:03,320 --> 00:08:06,200 Speaker 1: peppered him with questions. He listened to the man near 122 00:08:06,280 --> 00:08:10,720 Speaker 1: him translate from English to Portuguese. Jose was dressed smartly 123 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:14,119 Speaker 1: in a rust colored soft hat, a light colored coat, 124 00:08:14,560 --> 00:08:19,560 Speaker 1: dark pants with light stripes, and those new shoes. He 125 00:08:19,680 --> 00:08:22,640 Speaker 1: was quite tall and very young, just eighteen, and he 126 00:08:22,680 --> 00:08:26,760 Speaker 1: sported a little black goatee and a mustache. A key 127 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:31,640 Speaker 1: point here, Jose was very thin. Bertha Manchester, according to 128 00:08:31,680 --> 00:08:35,120 Speaker 1: her friends, would have been a formidable woman for him 129 00:08:35,120 --> 00:08:40,000 Speaker 1: to overpower. The shoe salesman had come and gone and 130 00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,320 Speaker 1: had already identified him as the man who bought shoes 131 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:48,160 Speaker 1: from him. Despite his objections, the salesman gave detectives a 132 00:08:48,200 --> 00:08:51,800 Speaker 1: little bit more information. Jose had taken the odd coins 133 00:08:51,880 --> 00:08:55,079 Speaker 1: from a lady's pocket book, which opened with a clasp 134 00:08:55,120 --> 00:09:00,760 Speaker 1: on top. Another set of witnesses claims to have seen 135 00:09:00,840 --> 00:09:03,760 Speaker 1: Jose running down a thoroughfare of the day of the murders, 136 00:09:06,360 --> 00:09:09,199 Speaker 1: wearing the same clothes he was wearing in the police station, 137 00:09:10,920 --> 00:09:14,439 Speaker 1: but Jose refused to confess, and he was eventually assigned 138 00:09:14,440 --> 00:09:21,080 Speaker 1: a lawyer. The police theorized that Jose came to the 139 00:09:21,080 --> 00:09:27,160 Speaker 1: Manchester farm expecting to find Stephen Manchester, perhaps to demand money. Instead, 140 00:09:27,360 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 1: Jose discovered Bertha all by herself. After a huge fight, 141 00:09:32,200 --> 00:09:36,760 Speaker 1: he murdered her. Jose was angry with Stephen Manchester and 142 00:09:36,840 --> 00:09:40,600 Speaker 1: he took out his rage on Bertha, and soon Jose 143 00:09:40,760 --> 00:09:45,480 Speaker 1: confessed another brutal axe murder, right at the start of 144 00:09:45,600 --> 00:09:49,840 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden's high profile trial. It's quite a coincidence, and 145 00:09:49,920 --> 00:09:53,840 Speaker 1: the motive is startling, a disgruntled employee taking revenge on 146 00:09:53,920 --> 00:09:57,760 Speaker 1: his employer. To the police investigators in Full River, that 147 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:02,520 Speaker 1: motive for murder felt familiar because it's actually what they 148 00:10:02,600 --> 00:10:05,800 Speaker 1: first thought had happened at the Bordon House that day. 149 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:10,520 Speaker 1: Kara Robertson is the author of the most comprehensive Lizzie 150 00:10:10,559 --> 00:10:11,560 Speaker 1: Borden book to date. 151 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:16,800 Speaker 3: What they first suspected might have happened at the Bordon House, 152 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:21,600 Speaker 3: namely that some you know, deranged former employee had broken 153 00:10:21,600 --> 00:10:25,720 Speaker 3: in and killed Andrew Borden because of some kind of dispute, 154 00:10:25,800 --> 00:10:29,840 Speaker 3: and just unfortunately for her, happened upon Abby Bordon and 155 00:10:29,880 --> 00:10:32,760 Speaker 3: killed her as well, that you know, some version of 156 00:10:32,800 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 3: that had actually happened out of the Manchester farm. 157 00:10:36,240 --> 00:10:39,440 Speaker 1: It seemed like their suspicions had come true, only on 158 00:10:39,559 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: a whole different case. And here they were arresting an 159 00:10:43,280 --> 00:10:47,120 Speaker 1: immigrant for murdering the daughter of his former boss. I know, 160 00:10:47,360 --> 00:10:49,280 Speaker 1: this sounds like the kind of story that would be 161 00:10:49,360 --> 00:10:53,520 Speaker 1: political football today. It turns out that it was then too. 162 00:10:55,080 --> 00:10:59,520 Speaker 3: You know, here this Portuguese immigrant who's nuts comes in 163 00:10:59,559 --> 00:11:01,679 Speaker 3: and kills her because he can't get to her father. 164 00:11:02,640 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden's defense could have had a field day with 165 00:11:05,559 --> 00:11:08,559 Speaker 1: this sort of story. How could they accuse this young 166 00:11:08,600 --> 00:11:11,760 Speaker 1: woman of a brutal crime against her own parents when 167 00:11:11,800 --> 00:11:14,640 Speaker 1: a crazed immigrant had been on the loose during the 168 00:11:14,640 --> 00:11:18,359 Speaker 1: Bordon murders. But as the trial got started, the prosecutor 169 00:11:18,400 --> 00:11:21,560 Speaker 1: in Lizzie's case instructed the jury not to be swayed 170 00:11:21,600 --> 00:11:26,240 Speaker 1: by the defense's ridiculous argument. The police chief certainly didn't 171 00:11:26,280 --> 00:11:29,920 Speaker 1: believe that Jose Carrero de Mello had killed the Burdons. 172 00:11:30,440 --> 00:11:33,280 Speaker 1: He was sure that Lizzie had done it herself. 173 00:11:34,120 --> 00:11:36,960 Speaker 3: And Marshall Hilliard's quite dismissive because he said that the 174 00:11:37,040 --> 00:11:39,800 Speaker 3: you know, the murders seemed quite different, you know, in 175 00:11:39,880 --> 00:11:43,320 Speaker 3: terms of forethought and you know, even even on some 176 00:11:43,440 --> 00:11:45,240 Speaker 3: level of the violence. I mean, as horrible as it 177 00:11:45,320 --> 00:11:48,960 Speaker 3: was for the murders to be committed by an axe, 178 00:11:49,200 --> 00:11:52,080 Speaker 3: you know, he just took a couple of swings. It 179 00:11:52,200 --> 00:11:56,560 Speaker 3: wasn't the same obliteration of the you know, the face 180 00:11:57,640 --> 00:11:59,960 Speaker 3: that you know you saw in Andrew's murder. 181 00:12:00,600 --> 00:12:04,360 Speaker 1: But the defense was keen on exploring any possibility that 182 00:12:04,480 --> 00:12:08,280 Speaker 1: someone other than Lizzie Borden murdered her parents. That would 183 00:12:08,360 --> 00:12:11,880 Speaker 1: mean ignoring the basic details of the case, like if 184 00:12:11,960 --> 00:12:15,400 Speaker 1: Jose did kill the Burdens, would he really not have 185 00:12:15,480 --> 00:12:18,200 Speaker 1: been spotted coming out of the house on Second Street 186 00:12:18,320 --> 00:12:19,360 Speaker 1: in broad daylight? 187 00:12:20,679 --> 00:12:24,319 Speaker 3: But I think, you know, a crazy Portuguese guy with 188 00:12:24,520 --> 00:12:28,560 Speaker 3: the ass walking around town would have been noticed. 189 00:12:29,240 --> 00:12:29,480 Speaker 4: I mean. 190 00:12:29,520 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 3: The odd thing about the Bordon murders, and I have 191 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:36,320 Speaker 3: said this before, but you know, it always surprised me 192 00:12:36,640 --> 00:12:39,880 Speaker 3: were how many people were walking past the house, you know, 193 00:12:40,000 --> 00:12:44,280 Speaker 3: just on an ordinary late morning in August. I think 194 00:12:44,280 --> 00:12:46,680 Speaker 3: of it as being a relatively quiet area, but it 195 00:12:46,760 --> 00:12:50,080 Speaker 3: was a you know, a mixed business and residential area. 196 00:12:50,160 --> 00:12:52,280 Speaker 4: So there's a fair amount of foot traffic. 197 00:12:52,360 --> 00:12:56,080 Speaker 1: So logistically, is it possible that Carrera de Mello was 198 00:12:56,160 --> 00:12:59,760 Speaker 1: the one carrying the axe. Some people in Fall River 199 00:12:59,800 --> 00:13:03,680 Speaker 1: thought so, but it was because of his ethnicity, and 200 00:13:03,760 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: Lizzie Bordon's defense certainly took. 201 00:13:06,360 --> 00:13:07,560 Speaker 2: Full advantage of that. 202 00:13:08,240 --> 00:13:11,880 Speaker 1: They tried to create reasonable doubt using just about anyone 203 00:13:11,920 --> 00:13:14,640 Speaker 1: in the city at the time, anyone who could have 204 00:13:14,760 --> 00:13:18,680 Speaker 1: possibly been responsible, anyone but Lizzie Borden. 205 00:13:19,480 --> 00:13:22,040 Speaker 3: And there's a lot of discussion of the trial of 206 00:13:22,080 --> 00:13:25,320 Speaker 3: who else has seen or not seen around the time 207 00:13:25,360 --> 00:13:27,800 Speaker 3: of the murders. So the defense does quite a bit 208 00:13:27,880 --> 00:13:31,280 Speaker 3: with you know, they're these odd looking people who are 209 00:13:31,320 --> 00:13:32,360 Speaker 3: spotted in the area. 210 00:13:33,120 --> 00:13:36,560 Speaker 1: Kara Robertson says that the defense brought in witnesses just 211 00:13:36,640 --> 00:13:39,720 Speaker 1: so they could present them as other potential suspects. 212 00:13:40,400 --> 00:13:42,960 Speaker 3: And then they also talk about how Andrew Borden was 213 00:13:43,040 --> 00:13:46,559 Speaker 3: not seen by people on his walk home, to suggest 214 00:13:46,679 --> 00:13:49,080 Speaker 3: that it might be possible for someone to make that 215 00:13:49,240 --> 00:13:52,040 Speaker 3: walk and be in the area and be lurking around 216 00:13:52,040 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 3: and not be seen. You know, they managed to have 217 00:13:55,200 --> 00:13:58,040 Speaker 3: the busyness kind of cut both ways that it might 218 00:13:58,040 --> 00:14:01,760 Speaker 3: have provided cover for an assassin, but it also it 219 00:14:01,800 --> 00:14:04,560 Speaker 3: also presented many suspects who could have been in the area. 220 00:14:06,280 --> 00:14:09,800 Speaker 1: By this point, you've likely noticed that all my historical 221 00:14:09,840 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: crime stories are grounded by social issues. Why are we 222 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:18,040 Speaker 1: telling this story right now? In the case of Bertha Manchester, 223 00:14:18,440 --> 00:14:21,560 Speaker 1: it's interesting to explore the issue around nativism in the 224 00:14:21,600 --> 00:14:26,720 Speaker 1: eighteen hundreds. Bertha became an avatar for the idealized white 225 00:14:26,760 --> 00:14:28,160 Speaker 1: woman as a victim. 226 00:14:28,520 --> 00:14:31,560 Speaker 3: She was kind of the perfect nativist victim, and this 227 00:14:31,720 --> 00:14:34,960 Speaker 3: was the perfect nativist murder in the sense of it was, 228 00:14:35,280 --> 00:14:39,600 Speaker 3: you know, this deranged immigrant person, you know, kills this nice, virtuous, 229 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:41,120 Speaker 3: native born daughter at home. 230 00:14:41,880 --> 00:14:44,400 Speaker 1: Why was it not surprising to people in the nineteenth 231 00:14:44,400 --> 00:14:48,800 Speaker 1: century that an immigrant like jose had committed this brutal murder. 232 00:14:49,480 --> 00:14:51,760 Speaker 3: So that's the case that's kind of out of the 233 00:14:51,880 --> 00:14:53,640 Speaker 3: nativist nightmare. 234 00:14:53,840 --> 00:14:56,880 Speaker 4: You know that this this crazy immigrant in a dispute over. 235 00:14:56,880 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 3: Wages, kills the daughter of his employer, and she's presented 236 00:15:02,600 --> 00:15:04,840 Speaker 3: in the newspapers as if she is, you know, pretty 237 00:15:04,920 --> 00:15:06,920 Speaker 3: much a paragon of feminine traits. 238 00:15:07,840 --> 00:15:11,640 Speaker 1: Historian Nel Darby says that at a minimum, white people 239 00:15:11,680 --> 00:15:14,440 Speaker 1: in the eighteen hundreds were suspicious of immigrants. 240 00:15:15,200 --> 00:15:18,680 Speaker 5: You get it for anyone who is perceived to be different, 241 00:15:18,720 --> 00:15:21,600 Speaker 5: who isn't the majority, you know, And again we have 242 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,000 Speaker 5: the equivalent in England in the nineteenth century with class, 243 00:15:25,040 --> 00:15:29,920 Speaker 5: but also with immigrants to England, sort of Irish immigrants 244 00:15:29,920 --> 00:15:31,760 Speaker 5: particularly were viewed with suspicion. 245 00:15:32,240 --> 00:15:35,200 Speaker 1: Nell says that the Irish and England were targeted much 246 00:15:35,280 --> 00:15:37,960 Speaker 1: like the immigrants in America were targeted. 247 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:42,200 Speaker 5: And they were deemed to be particularly violent men, drunken men. 248 00:15:42,440 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 5: So if a crime happened, you know, there was always 249 00:15:44,960 --> 00:15:47,200 Speaker 5: this suspicion that, oh, well, it must have been an irishman. 250 00:15:47,760 --> 00:15:51,360 Speaker 1: Nell says that those generalizations have played out throughout the 251 00:15:51,480 --> 00:15:52,320 Speaker 1: history of crime. 252 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:55,560 Speaker 5: So there's all these these generalizations and kind of a 253 00:15:55,640 --> 00:15:59,560 Speaker 5: lack of education about people where you'll get the majority 254 00:15:59,640 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 5: kind of picking on, you know, anybody who is other, 255 00:16:03,280 --> 00:16:06,240 Speaker 5: anybody who isn't them, and saying, well, it must be 256 00:16:06,360 --> 00:16:08,880 Speaker 5: them who are committing these clients. It couldn't possibly be 257 00:16:08,960 --> 00:16:09,560 Speaker 5: one of us. 258 00:16:10,040 --> 00:16:13,720 Speaker 1: But the dynamic between immigrants and whites was shifting in 259 00:16:13,720 --> 00:16:17,280 Speaker 1: the late eighteen hundreds, much to the dismay of the Nativists. 260 00:16:18,040 --> 00:16:20,880 Speaker 3: To think about the time period that you know, eighteen 261 00:16:20,960 --> 00:16:23,280 Speaker 3: seventy to you know, the early part of the twentieth 262 00:16:23,280 --> 00:16:28,040 Speaker 3: century is when the biggest migrations are from well, from 263 00:16:28,040 --> 00:16:30,080 Speaker 3: the parts of Europe that you know, were considered to 264 00:16:30,080 --> 00:16:32,280 Speaker 3: be less desirable at the time. 265 00:16:33,280 --> 00:16:35,800 Speaker 1: Kara says that this was all taking place in a 266 00:16:35,880 --> 00:16:39,160 Speaker 1: time that the Irish and the Portuguese communities had begun 267 00:16:39,200 --> 00:16:43,800 Speaker 1: to join forces and new political alliances were beginning to form. 268 00:16:44,760 --> 00:16:46,760 Speaker 3: You know, so the mayor is a Catholic at the 269 00:16:46,800 --> 00:16:49,800 Speaker 3: time of the murders, so you know, you sort of 270 00:16:49,840 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 3: have the sense of the maybe the Yankees kind of 271 00:16:52,000 --> 00:16:56,640 Speaker 3: losing their political stranglehold. They might they might still have 272 00:16:56,760 --> 00:17:00,800 Speaker 3: a social a social status that the others go quite 273 00:17:00,800 --> 00:17:03,160 Speaker 3: happ yet, but it seems like there's more mixing in 274 00:17:03,200 --> 00:17:03,840 Speaker 3: the communities. 275 00:17:04,359 --> 00:17:07,080 Speaker 1: She says that it was actually a marriage that helped 276 00:17:07,119 --> 00:17:09,520 Speaker 1: alter the political landscape in Fall River. 277 00:17:10,040 --> 00:17:14,080 Speaker 3: There's a marriage that unites the it's actually the Irish 278 00:17:14,119 --> 00:17:17,920 Speaker 3: and the French Canadian families political families, and that results 279 00:17:17,960 --> 00:17:22,520 Speaker 3: in the successful mayoral campaign of the man who's the 280 00:17:22,520 --> 00:17:24,520 Speaker 3: mayor at the time of the Bordon murders. 281 00:17:24,840 --> 00:17:28,520 Speaker 1: But even though times were changing, could a defense strategy 282 00:17:28,800 --> 00:17:33,000 Speaker 1: grounded in racism actually work? Would a jury believe that 283 00:17:33,119 --> 00:17:37,640 Speaker 1: Jose Carrera de Mello, the Portuguese immigrant had killed not 284 00:17:37,840 --> 00:17:42,040 Speaker 1: just Worth of Manchester, but also the Burdens. Could this 285 00:17:42,240 --> 00:17:45,920 Speaker 1: convince the panel of men that Lizzie Borden was innocent? 286 00:17:47,280 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: Hopefully not, but we'll never know for sure because the 287 00:17:50,680 --> 00:17:55,960 Speaker 1: investigators who interrogated Jose Carrera Demelo discovered something else important 288 00:17:56,200 --> 00:17:59,439 Speaker 1: about the timeline of the Bordon murders, and it was 289 00:17:59,560 --> 00:18:01,000 Speaker 1: in this beautiful evidence. 290 00:18:01,680 --> 00:18:06,240 Speaker 3: In the case of Birth of Manchester's murder, a Portuguese 291 00:18:06,240 --> 00:18:09,160 Speaker 3: immigrant had a dispute with her father over his wages, 292 00:18:09,680 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 3: and he had an axe and he killed Birth of Manchester. 293 00:18:13,480 --> 00:18:16,000 Speaker 3: She happened to be at home and it was pretty straightforward. 294 00:18:16,119 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 3: And the police were also able to determine that he 295 00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,480 Speaker 3: had not been in the country at the time of 296 00:18:22,520 --> 00:18:26,400 Speaker 3: the Bordon murders, so it wouldn't work to say that 297 00:18:26,880 --> 00:18:28,000 Speaker 3: he had committed both. 298 00:18:28,800 --> 00:18:32,680 Speaker 1: Jose Carrera de Mello had been in Portugal until April 299 00:18:32,680 --> 00:18:35,720 Speaker 1: of eighteen ninety three. He had not arrived in the 300 00:18:35,800 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: United States until eight months after the Burdons were murdered. 301 00:18:40,520 --> 00:18:42,399 Speaker 3: You know, if you assume that they got the right person, 302 00:18:42,840 --> 00:18:46,760 Speaker 3: then he couldn't have done He couldn't have committed those murders, 303 00:18:46,880 --> 00:18:50,440 Speaker 3: and the fact that they found him and that he confessed, 304 00:18:51,359 --> 00:18:54,359 Speaker 3: assuming we believe the confession, then that it means that 305 00:18:54,400 --> 00:18:58,439 Speaker 3: there wasn't somebody who could have committed all of those murders. 306 00:18:58,080 --> 00:19:01,520 Speaker 1: But at least in Bertha's case, was a confession, assuming 307 00:19:01,560 --> 00:19:05,080 Speaker 1: we believe it. Paul Hols often reminds me that confessions 308 00:19:05,080 --> 00:19:08,440 Speaker 1: can't always be believed, and we know that since most 309 00:19:08,480 --> 00:19:12,200 Speaker 1: forensic tools weren't available in the eighteen hundreds, police often 310 00:19:12,320 --> 00:19:17,160 Speaker 1: leaned on undeniably violent interrogation techniques to get confessions out 311 00:19:17,200 --> 00:19:21,720 Speaker 1: of suspects. Kara Robertson seems to agree he confessed. 312 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:27,240 Speaker 3: Now, I mean, given what we know about police's behavior, 313 00:19:28,400 --> 00:19:32,359 Speaker 3: particularly towards people who are considered undesirable members of society, 314 00:19:33,000 --> 00:19:35,760 Speaker 3: I don't know what to make of that. Like, you know, 315 00:19:35,840 --> 00:19:39,120 Speaker 3: maybe maybe there is some room room for doubt there, 316 00:19:39,680 --> 00:19:42,320 Speaker 3: but I don't think there's any connection between him and 317 00:19:42,920 --> 00:19:43,920 Speaker 3: the Borden murders. 318 00:19:44,640 --> 00:19:47,879 Speaker 1: I agree it sounds like Jose Carrera de Mello was 319 00:19:48,000 --> 00:19:52,119 Speaker 1: truly guilty of murdering Birtha Manchester, that it was simply 320 00:19:52,160 --> 00:19:56,280 Speaker 1: a case of wrong place, wrong time, but still it 321 00:19:56,400 --> 00:20:00,199 Speaker 1: was such an odd coincidence and it certainly impacted the 322 00:20:00,200 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: way the people of Fall River thought about both cases. 323 00:20:05,480 --> 00:20:09,080 Speaker 1: In the end, Jose was given a life sentence, but 324 00:20:09,200 --> 00:20:12,000 Speaker 1: that wasn't the end of his story, because he would 325 00:20:12,000 --> 00:20:16,120 Speaker 1: eventually get a reprieve. This next part is also from 326 00:20:16,240 --> 00:20:20,640 Speaker 1: Murder by Gaslight. Jose served nearly twenty years of his 327 00:20:20,680 --> 00:20:25,240 Speaker 1: life sentence. Then, through the persistence of John C. Santos, 328 00:20:25,280 --> 00:20:29,840 Speaker 1: a prominent Portuguese resident of Taunton, Massachusetts, he was pardoned 329 00:20:29,880 --> 00:20:34,000 Speaker 1: on December thirty first, nineteen thirteen. It sounds like Jose 330 00:20:34,280 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: was also required to stay out of trouble. If he 331 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,760 Speaker 1: were arrested in Portugal for any reason, even something minor, 332 00:20:42,320 --> 00:20:45,000 Speaker 1: he would spend the rest of his life in prison. 333 00:20:45,520 --> 00:20:48,240 Speaker 1: He was also required to return to his native town 334 00:20:48,240 --> 00:20:51,800 Speaker 1: in Portugal and never come back to the United States. 335 00:20:52,160 --> 00:20:55,879 Speaker 1: So remember that Jose's uncle had convinced his nephew to 336 00:20:55,960 --> 00:21:00,520 Speaker 1: turn himself into police that weekend. Since then, the uncle 337 00:21:00,560 --> 00:21:04,560 Speaker 1: became an outcast in the Portuguese community, where it was 338 00:21:04,640 --> 00:21:07,640 Speaker 1: believed that he had sold out his nephew for five 339 00:21:07,720 --> 00:21:11,000 Speaker 1: hundred dollars. We don't know if he really did receive 340 00:21:11,080 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 1: money for persuading Jose to go to the police station, 341 00:21:14,640 --> 00:21:18,639 Speaker 1: but his uncle certainly lied to him. Not surprisingly, this 342 00:21:18,800 --> 00:21:23,320 Speaker 1: caused a fissure between the two men. Jose reportedly refused 343 00:21:23,320 --> 00:21:25,560 Speaker 1: to see his uncle when he came to visit over 344 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,639 Speaker 1: those two decades that he was imprisoned for Bertha's murder. 345 00:21:29,640 --> 00:21:33,560 Speaker 1: Less than eight weeks after Jose's release, his uncle died 346 00:21:33,600 --> 00:21:37,199 Speaker 1: in his home. The official cause of death was pneumonia, 347 00:21:37,920 --> 00:21:45,120 Speaker 1: but friends say he actually died of a broken heart. 348 00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:49,000 Speaker 1: Just a little aside here. Jose Carrera de Mello was 349 00:21:49,040 --> 00:21:52,480 Speaker 1: imprisoned with hard labor in the United States. I had 350 00:21:52,520 --> 00:21:56,240 Speaker 1: wondered about the conditions of Lizzie Borden's prison. She was 351 00:21:56,280 --> 00:21:58,640 Speaker 1: held less than a year, but I'm sure it must 352 00:21:58,680 --> 00:22:00,160 Speaker 1: have been really difficult on her. 353 00:22:00,800 --> 00:22:03,680 Speaker 3: She did go to an ordinary prison, but she was 354 00:22:03,720 --> 00:22:06,720 Speaker 3: given special treatment within that prison. She had her own room, 355 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:10,520 Speaker 3: she was allowed to have her own furniture, She had visitors. 356 00:22:11,040 --> 00:22:13,359 Speaker 3: You know, the matron was very kind to her. You know, 357 00:22:13,400 --> 00:22:16,280 Speaker 3: there was even a cat that she sort of adopted. 358 00:22:17,119 --> 00:22:19,800 Speaker 3: She received gifts of chocolate. She had a bit of 359 00:22:19,840 --> 00:22:22,439 Speaker 3: a sweet tooth, so that comes up in her correspondence 360 00:22:22,480 --> 00:22:25,840 Speaker 3: whenever she received something like that. So she didn't have 361 00:22:25,920 --> 00:22:28,800 Speaker 3: an ordinary experience of being in prison, even when she 362 00:22:28,960 --> 00:22:30,600 Speaker 3: was in jail awaiting. 363 00:22:30,240 --> 00:22:34,399 Speaker 1: Trial, sounds about right. Kara says, it was all about 364 00:22:34,440 --> 00:22:37,639 Speaker 1: class structure, as most things were in the eighteen hundreds. 365 00:22:38,000 --> 00:22:38,680 Speaker 2: I wondered what. 366 00:22:38,680 --> 00:22:42,639 Speaker 1: Would have happened if she were deemed legally insane. 367 00:22:43,280 --> 00:22:47,840 Speaker 3: She would have been considered someone who needed care rather 368 00:22:47,960 --> 00:22:51,880 Speaker 3: than rather than just being locked up in a dungeon. 369 00:22:52,640 --> 00:22:54,919 Speaker 3: And that had a lot to do with her class 370 00:22:54,960 --> 00:22:59,160 Speaker 3: status and ethnicity and self presentation. You know, she ticked 371 00:22:59,200 --> 00:23:02,359 Speaker 3: the boxes of being a lady, you know, as it 372 00:23:02,440 --> 00:23:05,640 Speaker 3: was understood in those days. And so there's no way 373 00:23:05,640 --> 00:23:08,080 Speaker 3: they would have subjected her to know what we might 374 00:23:08,119 --> 00:23:11,359 Speaker 3: think of as this sort of horrors of the worst 375 00:23:11,400 --> 00:23:14,560 Speaker 3: kind of group mental institution in that era. 376 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,600 Speaker 1: Now that the mystery of the murder of Bertha Manchester 377 00:23:18,760 --> 00:23:21,879 Speaker 1: was settled, the prosecutor in Lizzie's trial moved on to 378 00:23:22,040 --> 00:23:26,160 Speaker 1: establishing her motive. The district attorney needed to explain why 379 00:23:26,280 --> 00:23:29,800 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden, a woman from a respectable household, would have 380 00:23:29,880 --> 00:23:33,840 Speaker 1: killed her father and stepmother. But instead, what the prosecution 381 00:23:33,960 --> 00:23:38,560 Speaker 1: team claimed was there was no motive, just insanity. 382 00:23:40,040 --> 00:23:43,000 Speaker 3: They really thought Lizzie Borden must be insane. They were 383 00:23:43,040 --> 00:23:45,520 Speaker 3: convinced she was guilty, and for them, that was really 384 00:23:45,520 --> 00:23:48,160 Speaker 3: the only explanation that made sense to them. I mean, 385 00:23:48,200 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 3: after all, they're confronting this very typical looking, upper middle 386 00:23:53,040 --> 00:23:56,439 Speaker 3: class woman who's involved in all the appropriate charities, and 387 00:23:56,800 --> 00:23:59,480 Speaker 3: she's supposed to have killed her father and her stepmother 388 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:02,639 Speaker 3: with a hatchet or an axe, and it just seems 389 00:24:02,680 --> 00:24:06,639 Speaker 3: so unbelievable that there had to be an explanation of insanity. 390 00:24:06,680 --> 00:24:08,480 Speaker 3: I mean, really, it was the only it was the 391 00:24:08,480 --> 00:24:09,960 Speaker 3: only thing that they could imagine. 392 00:24:10,160 --> 00:24:12,679 Speaker 1: The prosecutor tried to get the defense to agree to 393 00:24:12,680 --> 00:24:16,440 Speaker 1: have Lizzie Borden examined by a psychiatric expert. 394 00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:20,520 Speaker 3: But the defense understandably didn't want to do anything that 395 00:24:20,560 --> 00:24:24,320 Speaker 3: would suggest that she wasn't innocent, because, you know, for 396 00:24:24,359 --> 00:24:26,760 Speaker 3: their part, that was what they needed to do to 397 00:24:26,800 --> 00:24:29,360 Speaker 3: defend her. But also, I think it's fair to say, 398 00:24:29,440 --> 00:24:31,960 Speaker 3: based on you know, the information that you know that 399 00:24:32,040 --> 00:24:35,560 Speaker 3: we have from journals and the like, that they really 400 00:24:35,600 --> 00:24:36,520 Speaker 3: believed she was innocent. 401 00:24:37,680 --> 00:24:41,200 Speaker 1: The defense certainly wasn't going to hand the prosecution anything 402 00:24:41,200 --> 00:24:43,960 Speaker 1: that they could have used to suggest that Lizzie might 403 00:24:44,040 --> 00:24:49,479 Speaker 1: be mentally ill or guilty things really haven't changed. And 404 00:24:49,520 --> 00:24:52,680 Speaker 1: then there were the national and the local newspapers. 405 00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,200 Speaker 3: You know, it's just a juicy story, and that there 406 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,399 Speaker 3: was such a media surface around the case, you know, 407 00:24:57,440 --> 00:24:59,320 Speaker 3: of the kind that those of us who are old 408 00:24:59,400 --> 00:25:02,879 Speaker 3: enough for member from oj Simpson that you know, pretty 409 00:25:02,920 --> 00:25:07,040 Speaker 3: much anything that was salacious or juicy in any way 410 00:25:07,080 --> 00:25:09,640 Speaker 3: from Fall River's past that had even a vague connection 411 00:25:09,800 --> 00:25:12,000 Speaker 3: to the case was brought out. 412 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,760 Speaker 1: Kara says that even the columnists themselves became part of 413 00:25:16,800 --> 00:25:18,040 Speaker 1: the stories. 414 00:25:18,119 --> 00:25:21,680 Speaker 3: So pretty much anything was fair game to gin up 415 00:25:21,880 --> 00:25:25,800 Speaker 3: excitement about this case that you know, was going to 416 00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,040 Speaker 3: sell a lot of newspapers. 417 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,960 Speaker 1: With pressure from the press, the prosecutor tried to dig 418 00:25:31,040 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: into Lizzie Bordon's family history for signs of insanity. Might 419 00:25:35,560 --> 00:25:37,159 Speaker 1: she have inherited it? 420 00:25:37,880 --> 00:25:41,360 Speaker 3: You know, The prosecution, since they got no cooperation from 421 00:25:41,400 --> 00:25:45,200 Speaker 3: the defense, did their own investigation of Lizzie Bordon's family 422 00:25:45,280 --> 00:25:48,000 Speaker 3: to see if they could trace anything that looked like 423 00:25:48,080 --> 00:25:50,359 Speaker 3: insanity in the family tree, you know, and went so 424 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,439 Speaker 3: far as to ask the former and current directors of 425 00:25:55,480 --> 00:26:01,120 Speaker 3: the McLean Asylum for the Insane in Massachusetts for their opinion, 426 00:26:01,240 --> 00:26:04,360 Speaker 3: you know, sort of off the record, and then sent 427 00:26:04,440 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 3: out a police officer to interview anyone that they could 428 00:26:07,280 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 3: talk to who knew anything about Lizzie Borton's biological ancestors. 429 00:26:12,800 --> 00:26:15,920 Speaker 1: Now that was intriguing. I asked Kara if they had 430 00:26:16,000 --> 00:26:19,520 Speaker 1: any look, did they find any evidence of insanity? 431 00:26:20,160 --> 00:26:21,320 Speaker 4: They came up with nothing. 432 00:26:21,359 --> 00:26:24,800 Speaker 3: I mean, there was some talk of her mother being 433 00:26:24,880 --> 00:26:29,640 Speaker 3: peculiar and maybe subject to fits of rage, and one 434 00:26:29,640 --> 00:26:33,199 Speaker 3: person said he thought Lizzie Borton was very ugly, you know, 435 00:26:33,240 --> 00:26:36,360 Speaker 3: in this in the sense of, you know, not being 436 00:26:36,359 --> 00:26:38,280 Speaker 3: a nice person. I don't think it was a physical 437 00:26:38,960 --> 00:26:44,080 Speaker 3: characterization that she had an ugly disposition, but you know, 438 00:26:44,119 --> 00:26:46,440 Speaker 3: there may have been some odd apples in the family tree, 439 00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 3: but but you know, no suggestion of actual insanity. 440 00:26:56,160 --> 00:27:01,399 Speaker 1: So then they looked outside the immediate family tree, and 441 00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:04,359 Speaker 1: the papers picked up on something from almost half a 442 00:27:04,400 --> 00:27:09,359 Speaker 1: century earlier, those murders that had taken place right next 443 00:27:09,400 --> 00:27:52,119 Speaker 1: door by another Burden, Eliza Hathaway Darling Bordon. Though Lizzie 444 00:27:52,160 --> 00:27:55,399 Speaker 1: Borden and her great aunt Eliza Darling Bordon shared the 445 00:27:55,440 --> 00:27:59,239 Speaker 1: Bordon name, they were only related by marriage. But that 446 00:27:59,359 --> 00:28:02,359 Speaker 1: didn't stop the oppress and the prosecution in Lizzie's case 447 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,800 Speaker 1: from digging into their similarities. 448 00:28:05,560 --> 00:28:10,240 Speaker 3: As you say, there's no genetic, biological connection at all. 449 00:28:11,080 --> 00:28:13,600 Speaker 3: I think it was just that it was, you know, 450 00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:16,040 Speaker 3: the combination of the last name and the proximity. 451 00:28:16,320 --> 00:28:17,480 Speaker 4: You know, it was just next door. 452 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:21,199 Speaker 3: So the idea that, wow, these these terrible things have 453 00:28:21,280 --> 00:28:22,720 Speaker 3: happened so close to each other. 454 00:28:23,760 --> 00:28:27,240 Speaker 1: Still, despite the fact that there was no shared blood 455 00:28:27,320 --> 00:28:31,879 Speaker 1: between Lizzie Borden and Eliza Borden, the prosecutor did bring 456 00:28:32,040 --> 00:28:36,720 Speaker 1: up Eliza's name. Bordon tour guide Ashley Bolero and relative 457 00:28:36,760 --> 00:28:39,920 Speaker 1: Cary Nolty say that the prosecution was anxious to make 458 00:28:40,000 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: the connection. 459 00:28:41,160 --> 00:28:43,520 Speaker 6: Now we're pushing it forty years later during the Lizzie 460 00:28:43,520 --> 00:28:47,920 Speaker 6: Bordon trial and they bring up this horrendous crime that 461 00:28:48,000 --> 00:28:52,120 Speaker 6: happened next door, and they're like, well, maybe Lizzie committed 462 00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 6: these murders because insanity just runs in the family. 463 00:28:55,400 --> 00:28:55,880 Speaker 2: Because it was. 464 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:58,280 Speaker 7: Still fresh in everyone's memory, you know, they could bring 465 00:28:58,320 --> 00:29:01,120 Speaker 7: that up was it was known the time, which tells 466 00:29:01,160 --> 00:29:03,200 Speaker 7: me that it was. 467 00:29:04,760 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 4: A pretty big deal even if Therewig was gone. Lodwig 468 00:29:09,480 --> 00:29:09,920 Speaker 4: was gone. 469 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,320 Speaker 7: Lodwig was gone, but Maria was still around. 470 00:29:14,840 --> 00:29:17,960 Speaker 6: They actually reached out to Maria during that time, and 471 00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:20,440 Speaker 6: she was still living in Fall River, she had children, 472 00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:23,120 Speaker 6: and she was thriving, so that even put more ends 473 00:29:23,160 --> 00:29:23,760 Speaker 6: to the claim. 474 00:29:23,920 --> 00:29:25,120 Speaker 2: They kind of threw that out. 475 00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:27,720 Speaker 6: They're like, oh, well, you know, another reason not to 476 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:31,280 Speaker 6: think that Lizzie did it because she insanity. 477 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:35,880 Speaker 1: So then the prosecutor asked Lizzie Borden's attorneys if she 478 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,440 Speaker 1: could be tested by a mental health professional, but again 479 00:29:39,520 --> 00:29:42,360 Speaker 1: they were denied. I wonder what they were looking for. 480 00:29:43,040 --> 00:29:46,160 Speaker 1: It sounds like perhaps because of her gender, they were 481 00:29:46,240 --> 00:29:49,440 Speaker 1: so ensure of their case that they hoped that even 482 00:29:49,480 --> 00:29:52,760 Speaker 1: the prospect of this connection would convince the jury that 483 00:29:52,800 --> 00:29:57,080 Speaker 1: Lizzie Borden was mentally ill and that therefore she was 484 00:29:57,240 --> 00:29:57,760 Speaker 1: a killer. 485 00:29:59,240 --> 00:30:01,600 Speaker 4: You know, are you full of telling the difference between 486 00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:02,320 Speaker 4: right or wrong? 487 00:30:02,680 --> 00:30:06,080 Speaker 3: And you know, I think she would have passed that 488 00:30:06,120 --> 00:30:08,240 Speaker 3: without any any difficulty. 489 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:13,800 Speaker 1: Kara says that it might have been easy to convince 490 00:30:13,880 --> 00:30:17,320 Speaker 1: an all male jury that she was legally insane because 491 00:30:17,360 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: compared to men, women were considered unstable in the eighteen hundreds. 492 00:30:22,360 --> 00:30:24,040 Speaker 3: One thing that they were looking at, you know, that 493 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:28,040 Speaker 3: was specific to that era, though we do see echoes 494 00:30:28,040 --> 00:30:31,479 Speaker 3: of it even today, is this idea that women are 495 00:30:32,000 --> 00:30:38,600 Speaker 3: particularly vulnerable to a species of insanity, a specifically gendered insanity, 496 00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 3: at the time of their menstrual periods or in other 497 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:44,320 Speaker 3: parts of their cycle of life. 498 00:30:45,040 --> 00:30:47,400 Speaker 1: That seems like a lot to unpack, and it had 499 00:30:47,440 --> 00:30:51,200 Speaker 1: been Lizzie Borden's lawyers who brought it up. At first, 500 00:30:51,280 --> 00:30:54,480 Speaker 1: they didn't want any mention of her mental health, and 501 00:30:54,560 --> 00:30:58,280 Speaker 1: now somehow they're talking about her time of the month. 502 00:31:00,080 --> 00:31:03,400 Speaker 3: There is this tricky bit in the trial where Lizzie 503 00:31:03,480 --> 00:31:08,720 Speaker 3: Borden's defense lawyers are using the fact that she was 504 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,600 Speaker 3: on what they called her monthly illness as an explanation 505 00:31:14,840 --> 00:31:18,480 Speaker 3: for some things that she did that what might otherwise 506 00:31:18,480 --> 00:31:21,560 Speaker 3: say show consciousness of guilt. You know, that she made 507 00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:25,680 Speaker 3: predictions of something terrible happening on the night before the murders. 508 00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:29,440 Speaker 3: Also that there was a tiny bit of blood found 509 00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:34,800 Speaker 3: on an internal skirt, so they were able to use 510 00:31:34,840 --> 00:31:39,040 Speaker 3: it for things that suited them. But they were somehow, 511 00:31:39,160 --> 00:31:44,120 Speaker 3: very cleverly able to not raise the specter of menstrual insanity, 512 00:31:44,160 --> 00:31:46,560 Speaker 3: which would have been a potential diagnosis. 513 00:31:47,680 --> 00:31:50,680 Speaker 1: Kara says that no one wanted to talk about menstruation 514 00:31:50,840 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: at a Lizzie Borden trial neither side, even if it 515 00:31:54,200 --> 00:31:57,640 Speaker 1: might have helped them, and the prosecutor stayed far away 516 00:31:57,640 --> 00:31:58,560 Speaker 1: from it. 517 00:31:58,560 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: It seemed as if they didn't want to talk about 518 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:04,280 Speaker 3: menstruation either, you know, that it made them uncomfortable for 519 00:32:04,320 --> 00:32:05,080 Speaker 3: whatever reason. 520 00:32:05,640 --> 00:32:08,360 Speaker 4: You know. And there's the famous incident. 521 00:32:07,960 --> 00:32:11,840 Speaker 3: Of the discovery of the bloody towels in the basement 522 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,480 Speaker 3: of the house on the day of the murders. This 523 00:32:15,840 --> 00:32:19,720 Speaker 3: essentially a bucket or a pail with some what were 524 00:32:19,760 --> 00:32:21,480 Speaker 3: described as menstrual claws. 525 00:32:22,080 --> 00:32:26,080 Speaker 1: But even so, that bucket of bloody clothing hadn't really 526 00:32:26,120 --> 00:32:28,320 Speaker 1: been investigated by the male officers. 527 00:32:29,200 --> 00:32:32,560 Speaker 3: And you know, you might think, if you're investigating this, 528 00:32:32,720 --> 00:32:37,680 Speaker 3: you know, horribly violence, double homicide where the murderer was 529 00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:42,320 Speaker 3: likely to have been spattered with blood, that finding a 530 00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:48,520 Speaker 3: pail of blood soaked rags, you know, might raise some suspicion. 531 00:32:49,560 --> 00:32:52,720 Speaker 3: But you know, they were quite happy to accept that. No, no, 532 00:32:52,760 --> 00:32:56,200 Speaker 3: that's that's just evidence of menstruation. So she was quite 533 00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:59,040 Speaker 3: lucky in that regard because it could have gone It 534 00:32:59,080 --> 00:33:00,840 Speaker 3: could have gone badly, I think. 535 00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:13,920 Speaker 1: So what ties all of these tragedies together once again? 536 00:33:14,080 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: It's time to circle back to the supposed curse of 537 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:21,040 Speaker 1: Fall River and the supposed curse of the family lines 538 00:33:21,080 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 1: of Thomas Cornell Junior and Sarah Earl. The stories of 539 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:28,959 Speaker 1: their descendants litter the pages of Fall River crime history books. 540 00:33:29,480 --> 00:33:32,760 Speaker 1: So I asked relative Caring Noulty about the connection between 541 00:33:32,920 --> 00:33:35,040 Speaker 1: Eliza Borden and Lizzie Bordon. 542 00:33:35,560 --> 00:33:39,800 Speaker 7: They tried to say that insanity ran through the family 543 00:33:40,400 --> 00:33:43,720 Speaker 7: by bringing this up, but they pointed out the opposing 544 00:33:43,760 --> 00:33:48,160 Speaker 7: council pointed out that Eliza actually was not a Bordon. 545 00:33:49,480 --> 00:33:50,720 Speaker 4: She was only a Bordon by. 546 00:33:50,640 --> 00:33:55,080 Speaker 1: Marriage, right, it wasn't direct and so that argument was dropped. 547 00:33:55,520 --> 00:33:59,560 Speaker 1: But what if the prosecutors just didn't look back far 548 00:33:59,680 --> 00:34:05,280 Speaker 1: enough down the family line. Remember, both Eliza and her 549 00:34:05,360 --> 00:34:10,359 Speaker 1: husband were related to Sarah Earle and Thomas Cornell, and 550 00:34:10,440 --> 00:34:15,600 Speaker 1: so was Lizzie Borden. But we are talking about in 551 00:34:15,640 --> 00:34:18,880 Speaker 1: some ways that doesn't matter. What we're looking more towards 552 00:34:19,160 --> 00:34:22,239 Speaker 1: is several generations up in the Earls. 553 00:34:22,360 --> 00:34:23,719 Speaker 4: And Sarah Earle. 554 00:34:24,120 --> 00:34:27,400 Speaker 3: Who you think, and I'm kind of on your wavelength 555 00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:31,040 Speaker 3: about whether she was really more heavily involved in the 556 00:34:31,080 --> 00:34:32,560 Speaker 3: death of Rebecca Briggs. 557 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:36,440 Speaker 1: I thought a lot about Carrie's belief that perhaps Rebecca 558 00:34:36,520 --> 00:34:39,840 Speaker 1: Briggs Cornell was murdered, and that it was her daughter 559 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:43,080 Speaker 1: in law, Sarah who had done it. Maybe there was 560 00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:46,080 Speaker 1: more than just a mean streak in the Earle family. 561 00:34:47,040 --> 00:34:48,440 Speaker 1: Maybe there was something darker. 562 00:34:49,520 --> 00:34:54,200 Speaker 7: Yeah. And then also potentially you don't necessarily have to 563 00:34:54,200 --> 00:34:57,520 Speaker 7: wield the weapon yourself to cause someone's death. 564 00:34:58,680 --> 00:35:01,800 Speaker 1: Even if Sarah didn't push Rebecca into the fire herself, 565 00:35:02,280 --> 00:35:05,399 Speaker 1: Carrie thinks that she might have convinced Thomas to do it. 566 00:35:06,000 --> 00:35:10,320 Speaker 1: And then perhaps Eliza Darling Borden might have been driven 567 00:35:10,360 --> 00:35:15,160 Speaker 1: to suicidal thoughts, not just from postpartum depression, but also 568 00:35:15,400 --> 00:35:16,640 Speaker 1: by a cruel husband. 569 00:35:17,480 --> 00:35:21,360 Speaker 7: And if Lodwig was of a mind to be cruel 570 00:35:21,400 --> 00:35:25,680 Speaker 7: to his wife and to deny her support someone who 571 00:35:25,800 --> 00:35:29,160 Speaker 7: had lost her mother, young, lost her father, lost uncles, 572 00:35:29,200 --> 00:35:34,359 Speaker 7: lost grandparents, lost her first child in a moment of 573 00:35:34,880 --> 00:35:38,640 Speaker 7: real upheaval, that's a recipe for disaster. 574 00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,600 Speaker 1: There might be something to this. I asked crime historian 575 00:35:45,640 --> 00:35:50,920 Speaker 1: Nel Darby about inheriting certain traits from past generations, past 576 00:35:51,080 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: criminal traits that run in the family. 577 00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,240 Speaker 5: I think from my experience obviously looking at historical cases, 578 00:35:57,280 --> 00:36:00,719 Speaker 5: there was often this thing of oh, well, that relative 579 00:36:00,880 --> 00:36:04,919 Speaker 5: had displayed similar traits in the past, and you'd get 580 00:36:05,040 --> 00:36:07,680 Speaker 5: kind of neighbors or family members coming up with these 581 00:36:07,760 --> 00:36:11,200 Speaker 5: stories about how they remembered other relatives behaving in an 582 00:36:11,200 --> 00:36:14,360 Speaker 5: odd way, or the whole family being regarded as odd 583 00:36:14,760 --> 00:36:15,440 Speaker 5: or peculiar. 584 00:36:16,280 --> 00:36:19,040 Speaker 1: Neil says that in smaller communities, you'd get this kind 585 00:36:19,080 --> 00:36:22,319 Speaker 1: of knowledge being passed down about a particular family and 586 00:36:22,400 --> 00:36:24,600 Speaker 1: about the fact that they were known to have these 587 00:36:24,680 --> 00:36:25,719 Speaker 1: kinds of traits. 588 00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:29,920 Speaker 5: And it wasn't necessarily described explicitly as a mental illness 589 00:36:30,040 --> 00:36:33,279 Speaker 5: or insanity, but it was just this recognition that, oh, yes, 590 00:36:33,600 --> 00:36:36,160 Speaker 5: we remember her father or her grandfather or her mother 591 00:36:36,239 --> 00:36:38,839 Speaker 5: or grandmother being slightly peculiar. 592 00:36:39,840 --> 00:36:43,440 Speaker 1: I've heard that repeatedly in my own stories. One killer 593 00:36:43,560 --> 00:36:46,759 Speaker 1: is a bastard, and so was his father and his grandfather. 594 00:36:47,680 --> 00:36:51,319 Speaker 1: Perhaps there's something shared in their blood, or maybe it's 595 00:36:51,440 --> 00:36:54,920 Speaker 1: just the situation surrounding a particular family, you know. 596 00:36:54,960 --> 00:36:57,239 Speaker 5: And I think today we probably in more reasoned about it, 597 00:36:57,280 --> 00:37:00,720 Speaker 5: not only seeing it as like possible family history mental illness, 598 00:37:00,719 --> 00:37:03,880 Speaker 5: but looking at the circumstances in which someone grows up 599 00:37:03,920 --> 00:37:06,200 Speaker 5: and the effect that can have on you mentally. 600 00:37:06,880 --> 00:37:09,440 Speaker 4: So I think, you know, it does vary, you know, 601 00:37:09,480 --> 00:37:11,360 Speaker 4: And I don't think it's. 602 00:37:10,880 --> 00:37:13,880 Speaker 5: A straightforward case of saying, well, we're more aware of 603 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:17,040 Speaker 5: it now, and we recognize that these things can run 604 00:37:17,080 --> 00:37:21,760 Speaker 5: in families and it's something out of a particular individual's control, 605 00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,520 Speaker 5: because I think there was some recognition of that certainly 606 00:37:25,520 --> 00:37:32,160 Speaker 5: a century even two centuries ago. 607 00:37:34,000 --> 00:37:36,680 Speaker 1: This isn't the end of the curse in fall River. 608 00:37:37,480 --> 00:37:40,879 Speaker 1: Those two or three city blocks would still endure one 609 00:37:41,000 --> 00:37:46,040 Speaker 1: more widely publicized tragedy, an entirely different murder in a 610 00:37:46,040 --> 00:37:49,280 Speaker 1: building that would become the focus of the media almost 611 00:37:49,400 --> 00:37:53,799 Speaker 1: one hundred years later, and another that's connected strangely to 612 00:37:53,880 --> 00:37:59,360 Speaker 1: the boarding case. In our final episode, we explore the 613 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:11,239 Speaker 1: terrible rise of the satanic panic. On the final episode 614 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:18,880 Speaker 1: of tenfold More Wicked on exactly right. 615 00:38:19,040 --> 00:38:22,359 Speaker 6: The Fall River police wanted to question him about some 616 00:38:22,480 --> 00:38:24,840 Speaker 6: murders that had happened, and that some ties that he 617 00:38:24,920 --> 00:38:25,920 Speaker 6: had to these murders. 618 00:38:26,280 --> 00:38:28,640 Speaker 8: It's a love hate relationship, I think, similar to the 619 00:38:28,640 --> 00:38:31,640 Speaker 8: way Salem, Massachusetts has a love hate relationship with its 620 00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:35,680 Speaker 8: witchy history. You can't argue that it brings in tons 621 00:38:35,680 --> 00:38:38,960 Speaker 8: of people. However, I'm sure if you live there, you're like, 622 00:38:38,960 --> 00:38:40,319 Speaker 8: could we be known for something else? 623 00:38:41,040 --> 00:38:43,759 Speaker 6: And they spoke to Karen asking her to basically make 624 00:38:43,760 --> 00:38:45,480 Speaker 6: a statement, and she was like, well, if I'm going 625 00:38:45,560 --> 00:38:46,840 Speaker 6: to talk to anybody. 626 00:38:46,440 --> 00:38:48,080 Speaker 2: I need to speak to a priest first. 627 00:38:48,600 --> 00:38:52,279 Speaker 6: So they brought her over to the church and that 628 00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:53,640 Speaker 6: was the last time she was seen alive. 629 00:38:54,239 --> 00:38:57,720 Speaker 8: Absolutely real the people that lost their lives in a ritual, 630 00:38:57,800 --> 00:39:01,600 Speaker 8: whether there's such a creature as Satan or not, if 631 00:39:01,640 --> 00:39:04,799 Speaker 8: you die in a sacrifice, that's pretty real to you. 632 00:39:06,000 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 5: Thanks. 633 00:39:16,640 --> 00:39:19,520 Speaker 1: If you love true crime, check out my books American 634 00:39:19,560 --> 00:39:22,080 Speaker 1: Sherlock and All That Is Wicked. I also have an 635 00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:24,960 Speaker 1: audio book called The Ghost Club. I can't wait to 636 00:39:25,000 --> 00:39:28,080 Speaker 1: tell you the real story about the world's most famous 637 00:39:28,080 --> 00:39:31,200 Speaker 1: ghost hunter, who was the head of the world's most 638 00:39:31,239 --> 00:39:35,920 Speaker 1: famous ghost club and how he investigated England's most famous 639 00:39:35,960 --> 00:39:42,839 Speaker 1: haunted house. This has been an exactly right tenfold more 640 00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:47,960 Speaker 1: media production producer Jason Whaling, Senior producer Alexis m Rossi, 641 00:39:48,360 --> 00:39:54,000 Speaker 1: consulting producer Kyle Ryan, sound designer Eric Friend, composer Curtis Heath, 642 00:39:54,400 --> 00:40:00,239 Speaker 1: additional music Jeremy Buller, artwork Nick Toga. Executive producers Georger 643 00:40:00,320 --> 00:40:03,400 Speaker 1: hart Stark, Karen Kilgareff and Danielle Kramer.