1 00:00:05,200 --> 00:00:07,880 Speaker 1: Hey, this is Annie and Samantha, and welcome to stuff. 2 00:00:07,920 --> 00:00:19,439 Speaker 1: I never told you production. I heart radio. Samantha. Were 3 00:00:19,480 --> 00:00:21,599 Speaker 1: you Did you ever get into drawing? Did you ever 4 00:00:21,640 --> 00:00:24,400 Speaker 1: want to be someone who could draw? I did. I 5 00:00:24,520 --> 00:00:27,360 Speaker 1: really wanted to be an artist of sources. I felt 6 00:00:27,400 --> 00:00:30,560 Speaker 1: like if I could just do something amazing, So I 7 00:00:30,640 --> 00:00:34,080 Speaker 1: used to do all of my pictures of people would 8 00:00:34,080 --> 00:00:37,400 Speaker 1: always be of their profile. I felt like, at least 9 00:00:37,400 --> 00:00:39,920 Speaker 1: if I had the nose already on there, then I 10 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,360 Speaker 1: could do everything else. But yeah, they were a big 11 00:00:42,400 --> 00:00:44,760 Speaker 1: bubble face. It was really sad. Uh. So I had 12 00:00:44,800 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: a lot of bubble face drawings. And then I was 13 00:00:47,400 --> 00:00:50,160 Speaker 1: able to draw penguin's. I was very proud of that. 14 00:00:50,720 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: So I was like, oh, I can draw a penguin. 15 00:00:53,920 --> 00:00:57,400 Speaker 1: That's about the extent of it. I can't draw stick 16 00:00:57,440 --> 00:01:00,680 Speaker 1: figures really well either, Like you should be easy, but 17 00:01:00,760 --> 00:01:04,360 Speaker 1: it's not for me. Nothing connects. I don't know why. 18 00:01:04,760 --> 00:01:08,000 Speaker 1: Whenever we play any type of like when loser draw 19 00:01:08,360 --> 00:01:12,360 Speaker 1: or you know, guessing games on those routes, people don't 20 00:01:12,400 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: want me on their teach I don't I do know why, 21 00:01:17,680 --> 00:01:20,440 Speaker 1: But I was never good at it. I really wish 22 00:01:20,480 --> 00:01:23,600 Speaker 1: I had the talent. What about you. Oh well, first 23 00:01:23,600 --> 00:01:26,559 Speaker 1: of all, I forgot about the drawing games on the phone. 24 00:01:27,480 --> 00:01:29,280 Speaker 1: That was at the early stage of the pandemic when 25 00:01:29,319 --> 00:01:32,399 Speaker 1: everyone was like, oh, right, right, we shall do whatever 26 00:01:32,520 --> 00:01:36,759 Speaker 1: we need to to keep up these connections. I'm curious 27 00:01:36,800 --> 00:01:40,559 Speaker 1: about the penguins. Was that a choice that you made 28 00:01:40,640 --> 00:01:43,480 Speaker 1: or was that just something you discovered? So I'm not 29 00:01:43,520 --> 00:01:46,640 Speaker 1: really sure why we started drawing penguins, but it became 30 00:01:46,800 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: like when we use them as kind of puns. So, 31 00:01:51,560 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: but it wasn't necessarily about the penguins. It would be 32 00:01:53,720 --> 00:01:56,960 Speaker 1: about movie titles. So the one I would distinctly remember 33 00:01:57,040 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: so a good friend of mine who actually is the 34 00:01:59,760 --> 00:02:03,080 Speaker 1: old their sister of Kristin Conger of s Mente. That's 35 00:02:03,080 --> 00:02:06,400 Speaker 1: how I met all of them, Honestly. Anna and I 36 00:02:06,480 --> 00:02:09,040 Speaker 1: used to just draw a random like penguins and then 37 00:02:09,120 --> 00:02:11,440 Speaker 1: make little jokes out of them. And my favorite one 38 00:02:11,480 --> 00:02:15,040 Speaker 1: but she did was Splenda in the Grass, So it 39 00:02:15,080 --> 00:02:18,040 Speaker 1: would be a penguin holding in Splenda in tall grass. 40 00:02:18,600 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 1: One of my favorite movies growing up was Splendor in 41 00:02:20,480 --> 00:02:25,239 Speaker 1: the Grass, which is really really sad and ridiculous. But yeah, 42 00:02:25,360 --> 00:02:28,320 Speaker 1: so we would do things like that, and we would 43 00:02:28,360 --> 00:02:30,520 Speaker 1: just pass them around to each other. I don't know why, 44 00:02:30,560 --> 00:02:34,760 Speaker 1: but it was always penguins holding something. Uh huh, I 45 00:02:34,880 --> 00:02:38,440 Speaker 1: love that. Yeah, that's fantastic. Do you have many any 46 00:02:38,480 --> 00:02:42,040 Speaker 1: of them? I think they're gone. Oh I know, I'm 47 00:02:42,160 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 1: very sad about this. I can distinctly remember hers was 48 00:02:44,639 --> 00:02:46,920 Speaker 1: much better than mine too, by the way, way better. 49 00:02:47,600 --> 00:02:50,600 Speaker 1: Mine would just be a penguin who's like would wear 50 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: a hat or something. Still, I love drawing and coloring, 51 00:02:58,960 --> 00:03:01,959 Speaker 1: as you have seen as an adult, Samantha. If the 52 00:03:02,200 --> 00:03:06,040 Speaker 1: table met at a restaurant has the crowns and like 53 00:03:06,120 --> 00:03:09,359 Speaker 1: the canvas, then forget the food. That's what I'm doing. 54 00:03:10,200 --> 00:03:14,359 Speaker 1: And uh, I still like there's a restaurant I went 55 00:03:14,440 --> 00:03:16,240 Speaker 1: to a couple of years ago where it's kind of 56 00:03:16,240 --> 00:03:17,560 Speaker 1: hard to get your picture on the wall, and I 57 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:19,000 Speaker 1: got my picture on the wall, and I took a 58 00:03:19,040 --> 00:03:21,160 Speaker 1: picture of it as if I had won some great award, 59 00:03:21,560 --> 00:03:25,320 Speaker 1: like a picture that you color on the wall. But 60 00:03:25,360 --> 00:03:27,720 Speaker 1: I was never very good at it either. I think 61 00:03:27,760 --> 00:03:29,680 Speaker 1: I've said before the lowest grade I've ever gotten was 62 00:03:29,720 --> 00:03:32,280 Speaker 1: an art. But both of my friends were really good 63 00:03:32,320 --> 00:03:34,400 Speaker 1: at it. So I was desperate. I kept trying and 64 00:03:34,440 --> 00:03:37,080 Speaker 1: trying and trying, and I would illustrate all the stuff 65 00:03:37,080 --> 00:03:39,560 Speaker 1: I would write. I would put in like little boxes, 66 00:03:39,600 --> 00:03:42,120 Speaker 1: and the pictures were terrible. They were so bad. I 67 00:03:42,160 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: could trace things though I was good at tracing. I 68 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:50,280 Speaker 1: guess that's not so great overall, but better than what 69 00:03:50,360 --> 00:03:53,880 Speaker 1: I can do. Then I'm not sure that's the case. 70 00:03:56,320 --> 00:03:57,720 Speaker 1: I have been drawing a lot for a D and 71 00:03:57,800 --> 00:04:00,840 Speaker 1: D for Dungeons and Dragons. Nice, I draw the maps 72 00:04:01,480 --> 00:04:04,280 Speaker 1: and uh. We recently played Dungeons and Dragons for the 73 00:04:04,280 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: first time in person since this particular campaign started, and 74 00:04:09,080 --> 00:04:14,240 Speaker 1: I got out my very silly, childishly drawn maps and 75 00:04:14,280 --> 00:04:16,680 Speaker 1: they acted as if I was like presenting them the 76 00:04:16,720 --> 00:04:20,799 Speaker 1: Decoration of Independence. They were so just the real thing. 77 00:04:23,320 --> 00:04:25,880 Speaker 1: I like, you compared it to the Declaration of Independence. 78 00:04:25,920 --> 00:04:33,920 Speaker 1: That's amazing. They like gas allowed well. For this edition 79 00:04:33,960 --> 00:04:36,159 Speaker 1: book Club, we are talking about a graphic novel, which 80 00:04:36,160 --> 00:04:38,360 Speaker 1: is why this was on my mind. Um, and because 81 00:04:38,360 --> 00:04:41,680 Speaker 1: it is Pride month, we wanted to talk about fun Home, 82 00:04:41,839 --> 00:04:45,520 Speaker 1: a family tragic comic written by American cartoonist Alison Bechdel 83 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:49,280 Speaker 1: in two thousand and six, and yes, that Bechdel of 84 00:04:49,360 --> 00:04:52,520 Speaker 1: the Bechdel Test. She also wrote the comic strip dikes 85 00:04:52,560 --> 00:04:55,360 Speaker 1: to watch out for. Are You My Mother? A comic 86 00:04:55,440 --> 00:04:58,720 Speaker 1: drama and a memoir published in one called The Secret 87 00:04:58,839 --> 00:05:01,560 Speaker 1: to Superhuman Drengths. I think it just came out in May, 88 00:05:01,640 --> 00:05:07,520 Speaker 1: so very recent in. Fun Home was adapted for the 89 00:05:07,600 --> 00:05:10,719 Speaker 1: stage by playwright Lisa Crown and composer Janine two Sorry, 90 00:05:11,279 --> 00:05:14,200 Speaker 1: and the play went on to win several Tony Awards. 91 00:05:14,800 --> 00:05:18,400 Speaker 1: Fun Home is an autobiographical look at Bechdel's complicated relationship 92 00:05:18,440 --> 00:05:21,520 Speaker 1: with her father growing up in rural Pennsylvania at the 93 00:05:21,640 --> 00:05:24,479 Speaker 1: fun Home, the funeral home her dad runs, but I 94 00:05:24,480 --> 00:05:27,160 Speaker 1: guess it also functions for the house that they actually 95 00:05:27,200 --> 00:05:30,720 Speaker 1: live in, which was sort of this Victorian museum, right, 96 00:05:30,920 --> 00:05:34,160 Speaker 1: which we'll talk about more a bit later. After her 97 00:05:34,200 --> 00:05:38,839 Speaker 1: father's death, possibly by suicide, she wrestled with understanding her father, 98 00:05:39,040 --> 00:05:41,800 Speaker 1: his choices and the things he kept from her, and 99 00:05:41,839 --> 00:05:45,000 Speaker 1: how that interacts with her own coming out and understanding 100 00:05:45,040 --> 00:05:49,479 Speaker 1: of gender identities, sexual orientation, and gender roles. The book 101 00:05:49,520 --> 00:05:53,480 Speaker 1: also delves into family dysfunction and emotional abuse, suicide, coming 102 00:05:53,520 --> 00:05:56,440 Speaker 1: of age literature and how that can be a tool 103 00:05:56,480 --> 00:05:59,880 Speaker 1: for understanding ourselves in each other, and sexual orientation and 104 00:06:00,000 --> 00:06:02,920 Speaker 1: attitudes around it, and how they've changed or haven't over 105 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:07,880 Speaker 1: the years. It's beautifully illustrated and draws you into the world. 106 00:06:08,040 --> 00:06:10,760 Speaker 1: It's often called a graphic novel for word lovers. A 107 00:06:10,760 --> 00:06:13,320 Speaker 1: lot of the reviews will say like it made me 108 00:06:13,360 --> 00:06:16,599 Speaker 1: go to the dictionary more than once, which is me too. 109 00:06:17,240 --> 00:06:20,360 Speaker 1: It's told in a non linear way, with new memories 110 00:06:20,360 --> 00:06:24,400 Speaker 1: being repeated and re examined in light of new information. Yeah, 111 00:06:24,520 --> 00:06:28,240 Speaker 1: so we definitely have to talk about the author. Bechtel 112 00:06:28,320 --> 00:06:31,400 Speaker 1: was born in nineteen sixty and started drawing as a child. 113 00:06:31,480 --> 00:06:34,719 Speaker 1: At one time during her childhood, she expressed interest in 114 00:06:34,800 --> 00:06:38,000 Speaker 1: being a cartoonist. She started drawing characters that looked a 115 00:06:38,040 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: lot like her out of college when she didn't see 116 00:06:40,440 --> 00:06:43,360 Speaker 1: them anywhere. Some of her first jobs after college were 117 00:06:43,440 --> 00:06:46,159 Speaker 1: boring jobs she took so that she could draw, and 118 00:06:46,240 --> 00:06:48,400 Speaker 1: this is where she created Dikes to Watch Out for, 119 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,440 Speaker 1: a humorous comic strip published from three to two thousand 120 00:06:52,600 --> 00:06:56,240 Speaker 1: eight that followed a group of radical lesbians, partly inspired 121 00:06:56,520 --> 00:06:59,920 Speaker 1: by Howard Cruise's gay Comics founded in the nineteen seventy 122 00:07:00,480 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: it's from one of these trips that we get the 123 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,680 Speaker 1: famous Bechdel tests and the idea she credits to her 124 00:07:05,720 --> 00:07:08,760 Speaker 1: friend Liz Wallace, where you know, I didn't read this 125 00:07:08,920 --> 00:07:11,360 Speaker 1: out of the actual comic, but it has stated where 126 00:07:11,400 --> 00:07:14,040 Speaker 1: she the friend says, I will not go see this 127 00:07:14,080 --> 00:07:16,680 Speaker 1: movie unless at least two female characters are talking to 128 00:07:16,720 --> 00:07:18,600 Speaker 1: each other and it's not about a man. And so 129 00:07:18,640 --> 00:07:20,640 Speaker 1: she talks about how the last film she saw was 130 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:25,080 Speaker 1: Alien and I'll thought of you. But yes, it was 131 00:07:25,120 --> 00:07:28,920 Speaker 1: funny reading about it because it's named after Bechdel. She 132 00:07:28,960 --> 00:07:32,120 Speaker 1: was like, yeah, I don't really like movies really. Before 133 00:07:32,200 --> 00:07:34,480 Speaker 1: my friend she was just like, hey, I'll take it though. 134 00:07:34,680 --> 00:07:38,680 Speaker 1: It's cool. Hey. So this book took Beackdel several years 135 00:07:38,720 --> 00:07:42,040 Speaker 1: to create. I believe every seven she would photograph herself 136 00:07:42,040 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: in the poses of the characters to use as reference 137 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:46,920 Speaker 1: when drawing over four thousand photos in total. And you 138 00:07:46,920 --> 00:07:49,920 Speaker 1: can see a side by side comparisons and it's really amazing. 139 00:07:50,280 --> 00:07:53,680 Speaker 1: I recommend looking it up. She also referenced real diary 140 00:07:53,840 --> 00:07:57,320 Speaker 1: entries from her life. She was meticulous and documenting things 141 00:07:57,320 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: and has discussed the failings of memory, and she even 142 00:08:00,760 --> 00:08:04,240 Speaker 1: discusses that within the book, and this hammers home the 143 00:08:04,240 --> 00:08:07,120 Speaker 1: fact that while this is a graphic novel, it is 144 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:11,720 Speaker 1: autobiographical with real life and real events and real loss 145 00:08:11,840 --> 00:08:16,120 Speaker 1: and violence and pain behind it right. Inten Bechtel was 146 00:08:16,160 --> 00:08:18,600 Speaker 1: one of the twenty first recipients chosen for the MacArthur 147 00:08:18,600 --> 00:08:22,560 Speaker 1: Foundation Genius Grant in part for quote changing our notions 148 00:08:22,600 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 1: of contemporary memoir and expanding the expressive potential of the 149 00:08:26,200 --> 00:08:28,800 Speaker 1: graphic form. And she's appeared in an episode of The 150 00:08:28,840 --> 00:08:32,120 Speaker 1: Simpsons in which in the episode where Lisa writes her 151 00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:37,319 Speaker 1: own graphic novel autobiography called Sad Girl with illustrations by Marge, 152 00:08:37,559 --> 00:08:40,559 Speaker 1: and they appeared together on a comic panel with several 153 00:08:40,600 --> 00:08:43,400 Speaker 1: other famous cartoonists as well, so it's really fun. It 154 00:08:43,480 --> 00:08:47,280 Speaker 1: was definitely targeted by many sistership and banning efforts, with 155 00:08:47,440 --> 00:08:50,839 Speaker 1: some labeling as pornography because it contained oral sex between 156 00:08:50,880 --> 00:08:54,200 Speaker 1: two women and a woman masturbating four pages of the 157 00:08:54,200 --> 00:08:56,800 Speaker 1: two forty page book by the way, And it still 158 00:08:56,880 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: was like, huh, really, this is pornography. I guess that 159 00:09:00,000 --> 00:09:03,840 Speaker 1: could be. It was even sinceortain band at the college level, 160 00:09:03,960 --> 00:09:07,360 Speaker 1: so that says a lot during our time period, I'm sure. Yeah, 161 00:09:07,440 --> 00:09:11,720 Speaker 1: And that made national headlines so you can read all 162 00:09:11,760 --> 00:09:16,240 Speaker 1: about what happened there because it it caught, which is 163 00:09:16,280 --> 00:09:19,800 Speaker 1: kind of ironic because she talks about censorship novel. Yeah, 164 00:09:19,840 --> 00:09:21,920 Speaker 1: and I mean a lot of people rightfully pointed out 165 00:09:21,960 --> 00:09:26,959 Speaker 1: to say it's pornography when it's so few, like four 166 00:09:27,000 --> 00:09:31,560 Speaker 1: pages out of two or whatever. I mean, that's like 167 00:09:31,760 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: saying a movie is pornographic for having one sex scene 168 00:09:34,280 --> 00:09:37,319 Speaker 1: in it, and the whole movie like, it's just disingenuous 169 00:09:38,280 --> 00:09:42,600 Speaker 1: and incorrect. A few years ago, in Beckdale returned to 170 00:09:42,679 --> 00:09:45,319 Speaker 1: her small hometown to see a production of the play. 171 00:09:45,440 --> 00:09:48,400 Speaker 1: She said it was super surreal. It was the same 172 00:09:48,480 --> 00:09:50,880 Speaker 1: theater where my mother would do her amateur dramatics and 173 00:09:50,920 --> 00:09:53,320 Speaker 1: my father was on the board. I was a little afraid. 174 00:09:53,400 --> 00:09:55,360 Speaker 1: I felt anxious, like, oh my god, I'm going to 175 00:09:55,360 --> 00:09:57,199 Speaker 1: see all these people and they're going to be piste 176 00:09:57,200 --> 00:09:59,640 Speaker 1: off with me. Because there were people in my hometown 177 00:09:59,679 --> 00:10:02,160 Speaker 1: who did not think fun Home was a good thing. 178 00:10:02,520 --> 00:10:05,319 Speaker 1: They thought it dishonored by family. There was this great 179 00:10:05,400 --> 00:10:08,200 Speaker 1: warmth that I just hadn't expected. I had thought I 180 00:10:08,240 --> 00:10:10,760 Speaker 1: was going back to nineteen seventy seven, but the place 181 00:10:10,800 --> 00:10:14,000 Speaker 1: has changed, it has evolved. My parents who had met 182 00:10:14,000 --> 00:10:17,600 Speaker 1: in a play would get to go on living in one, right, 183 00:10:17,960 --> 00:10:20,800 Speaker 1: I can't imagine. Yeah, I do like how she mentioned 184 00:10:20,840 --> 00:10:23,400 Speaker 1: the fact that she was kind of glad her mother 185 00:10:23,640 --> 00:10:26,440 Speaker 1: wasn't alive to see it because her mother did have 186 00:10:26,440 --> 00:10:29,520 Speaker 1: a hard time with a book in general, which I've 187 00:10:29,520 --> 00:10:30,960 Speaker 1: thought about that. You know, you and I have talked 188 00:10:30,960 --> 00:10:33,400 Speaker 1: about this. We talked about this with Nicole, the author 189 00:10:33,440 --> 00:10:35,520 Speaker 1: who came and talked about her book. And when we 190 00:10:35,520 --> 00:10:39,160 Speaker 1: were talking about what would our parents think is it? 191 00:10:39,200 --> 00:10:40,840 Speaker 1: Is it going to dishonor them do are they gonna 192 00:10:40,840 --> 00:10:43,280 Speaker 1: be hurt by this? And yeah, she talked about that 193 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:47,440 Speaker 1: fact that she her mother I think eventually accepted it, 194 00:10:47,480 --> 00:10:51,200 Speaker 1: didn't love it, accepted it, but that the musical may 195 00:10:51,240 --> 00:10:52,960 Speaker 1: have been too much for her. It would have to 196 00:10:53,000 --> 00:10:55,000 Speaker 1: be the other way she could really view it is 197 00:10:55,040 --> 00:10:57,920 Speaker 1: if she was alone watching it. Yeah, I was like, 198 00:10:59,320 --> 00:11:02,840 Speaker 1: I mean, I hate to her from this point all 199 00:11:02,840 --> 00:11:05,720 Speaker 1: the time. But coming from a small town, I cannot 200 00:11:05,720 --> 00:11:08,840 Speaker 1: imagine going back to that small town and having a 201 00:11:09,000 --> 00:11:14,000 Speaker 1: play about like me coming out and family drama and 202 00:11:14,040 --> 00:11:20,480 Speaker 1: having conservatives small town Georgia watching it. Right, as well 203 00:11:20,520 --> 00:11:22,600 Speaker 1: as the fact that not the coming out was also 204 00:11:22,679 --> 00:11:27,600 Speaker 1: kind of indicated some really unsavory things for the town, 205 00:11:27,800 --> 00:11:31,720 Speaker 1: especially with from her family that you're like, oh, oh, 206 00:11:31,840 --> 00:11:33,720 Speaker 1: she gonna let it all out. Okay, here we go. 207 00:11:34,559 --> 00:11:37,400 Speaker 1: But of course, even with all the controversy, as we 208 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,280 Speaker 1: talked about before, she has won many awards and accolades, 209 00:11:41,320 --> 00:11:44,040 Speaker 1: including the book was listed as one of the top 210 00:11:44,280 --> 00:11:47,239 Speaker 1: ten best books of two thousand six by Time Magazine. 211 00:11:47,600 --> 00:11:50,280 Speaker 1: It was also given the Eisner Award for the Best 212 00:11:50,320 --> 00:11:53,679 Speaker 1: Reality Series Works in two thousand seven, but it also 213 00:11:53,920 --> 00:11:57,760 Speaker 1: was a part given the Award for Best Graphic Album 214 00:11:57,800 --> 00:12:00,520 Speaker 1: as well um and she was nominated as Best Writer 215 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:04,640 Speaker 1: and Artist with the same award. She also won the 216 00:12:05,000 --> 00:12:09,319 Speaker 1: Stonewall Book Awards Israel Fishman Nonfiction Award in two thousand 217 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,599 Speaker 1: and seven. She was given the Guggenheim A Fellowship in 218 00:12:12,640 --> 00:12:15,640 Speaker 1: two thousand twelve in part award in two thousand twelve, 219 00:12:15,679 --> 00:12:19,600 Speaker 1: as well the Bill Whitehead Award for Lifetime Achievement from 220 00:12:19,640 --> 00:12:23,400 Speaker 1: Publishing Triangle in two thousand twelve. So many awards. She 221 00:12:23,600 --> 00:12:27,400 Speaker 1: again won the maccarthur Fellowship in twenty fourteen, Lambda Board 222 00:12:27,400 --> 00:12:29,720 Speaker 1: of Trustees Award for Excellence in Literature in two thousand 223 00:12:29,679 --> 00:12:32,839 Speaker 1: and fourteen, the Ericson Institute par for Excellence and Mental 224 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:36,240 Speaker 1: Health and Media in two thousands fifteen, and goes On 225 00:12:36,440 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: and on and on. I feel like we also haven't 226 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 1: mentioned it yet, but about how she addresses the mental 227 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:43,840 Speaker 1: health stuff that she had to go through with her 228 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 1: compulsiveness and her fears and anxiety that kind of came 229 00:12:48,160 --> 00:12:53,160 Speaker 1: out because partially from her family and her trying to 230 00:12:53,200 --> 00:12:56,400 Speaker 1: figure out her own identity. But it was really interesting 231 00:12:56,440 --> 00:12:58,199 Speaker 1: as she talks about it, especially when she talks about 232 00:12:58,400 --> 00:13:02,360 Speaker 1: writing m and and doing the diary in journaling and 233 00:13:02,400 --> 00:13:06,400 Speaker 1: how like that became compulsive for her but also a release. 234 00:13:06,960 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: It was a very interesting dynamic tocity as well. Yeah, 235 00:13:09,880 --> 00:13:14,800 Speaker 1: and she's been very very outspoken about therapy, a strong 236 00:13:14,840 --> 00:13:19,880 Speaker 1: proponent of of therapy. So the plot is primarily an 237 00:13:19,960 --> 00:13:23,520 Speaker 1: examination of Bechdel's father, Bruce, a closeted gay man, and 238 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:26,960 Speaker 1: her own coming out as a lesbian and the relationship 239 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:29,559 Speaker 1: that the two of them had, the very very complicated relationship. 240 00:13:30,040 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 1: After going to college and realizing her own sexual orientation, 241 00:13:32,920 --> 00:13:35,080 Speaker 1: Beckdel sends a letter home to her parents about it, 242 00:13:35,360 --> 00:13:37,200 Speaker 1: and this is when she learns from her mother that 243 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,280 Speaker 1: her father had affairs with several men, including a few 244 00:13:40,280 --> 00:13:43,960 Speaker 1: who were underaged. With this revelation, both Alison and her 245 00:13:44,040 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 1: dad struggle to come to terms with how repressing his 246 00:13:46,760 --> 00:13:51,680 Speaker 1: sexual orientation may have impacted both of them. Her father 247 00:13:51,840 --> 00:13:54,640 Speaker 1: died a few months later after her letter, and also 248 00:13:54,679 --> 00:13:58,480 Speaker 1: two weeks after her mother. Bechdel's mother filed for divorce 249 00:13:58,720 --> 00:14:02,720 Speaker 1: from him. While Allison and her father are the primary characters, 250 00:14:02,840 --> 00:14:05,760 Speaker 1: her mother and brothers are consistently present, along with her 251 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:09,520 Speaker 1: first girlfriend, Joan, as is the house they live in itself, 252 00:14:09,559 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: an elaborate, meticulous nineteenth century home styled by her father 253 00:14:13,600 --> 00:14:16,280 Speaker 1: but maintained by her mother, a home that her father 254 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:19,240 Speaker 1: more openly cared for than his family, and all the 255 00:14:19,280 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 1: beautiful ornate objects in it. And I do love the 256 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,160 Speaker 1: beginning comparison that she has of it with the Adams family, 257 00:14:26,280 --> 00:14:28,440 Speaker 1: such a big, great beginning that I was like, Okay, 258 00:14:28,480 --> 00:14:31,760 Speaker 1: I see exactly what you're saying. Okay has an outward 259 00:14:31,760 --> 00:14:35,040 Speaker 1: appearance of perfection that he projects only possible with the 260 00:14:35,080 --> 00:14:38,400 Speaker 1: help and pain of others. So they're constantly having to 261 00:14:38,760 --> 00:14:42,000 Speaker 1: rearrange and dust the funeral home he inherited after his 262 00:14:42,040 --> 00:14:45,200 Speaker 1: own father's death. He and his wife, Helen, who had 263 00:14:45,200 --> 00:14:47,440 Speaker 1: been living in New York before that, had to return 264 00:14:47,480 --> 00:14:50,960 Speaker 1: to Pennsylvania once his father had died. The death of 265 00:14:51,000 --> 00:14:54,320 Speaker 1: passion and hope and dreams and thought of escape the past, 266 00:14:54,720 --> 00:14:58,280 Speaker 1: of a new life. It kind of just all disappeared. Yeah. Yeah. 267 00:14:58,360 --> 00:15:01,600 Speaker 1: So they were Helen and Bruce for off in Europe 268 00:15:01,640 --> 00:15:04,720 Speaker 1: and there's all these like happiness in front of them, 269 00:15:04,760 --> 00:15:07,840 Speaker 1: and then Bruce's father died after return home and it 270 00:15:07,920 --> 00:15:11,000 Speaker 1: did kind of represent like his father's death, but also yes, 271 00:15:11,160 --> 00:15:13,760 Speaker 1: he's inheriting the screener home and all those dreams they 272 00:15:13,760 --> 00:15:17,840 Speaker 1: had in Europe are kind of like gone, yeah, fizzled out. Yeah, 273 00:15:17,880 --> 00:15:21,680 Speaker 1: And I do love Bechtel's drawings of the comparison of 274 00:15:21,680 --> 00:15:25,600 Speaker 1: her mom before and after. It's it's it's like, oh 275 00:15:26,360 --> 00:15:35,440 Speaker 1: that's too really was like, yeah, resonates everywhere, and art 276 00:15:35,480 --> 00:15:38,000 Speaker 1: is almost a character in this book to something that 277 00:15:38,160 --> 00:15:42,120 Speaker 1: moves all of the human characters. Allison's parents met at 278 00:15:42,160 --> 00:15:45,320 Speaker 1: a play. Bruce takes refuge in literature and house design, 279 00:15:45,800 --> 00:15:48,320 Speaker 1: Helen and music. In one of the few ways that 280 00:15:48,360 --> 00:15:53,400 Speaker 1: Alison can connect to her emotionally abusive father is through literature. 281 00:15:53,440 --> 00:15:57,560 Speaker 1: It is constant throughout. At first, he's the one doing 282 00:15:57,560 --> 00:16:00,640 Speaker 1: most of the recommending to Allison, and he's pretty like 283 00:16:01,360 --> 00:16:04,880 Speaker 1: fierce about his opinions. But after Alison goes to college, 284 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:07,160 Speaker 1: she recommends some books to him, almost as a way 285 00:16:07,200 --> 00:16:09,680 Speaker 1: to open the door to them, talking about her coming 286 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: out as a lesbian and her father's closeted homosexuality or bisexuality, 287 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,960 Speaker 1: I don't know for sure, trying to bond over their 288 00:16:17,040 --> 00:16:21,480 Speaker 1: shared yet queerness. Also just want it's through in here. 289 00:16:22,160 --> 00:16:26,000 Speaker 1: There was seventeen years to Kada's Nixon Watergate was happening, 290 00:16:26,200 --> 00:16:29,800 Speaker 1: and I was like, wow, time really is a flat circle. 291 00:16:33,440 --> 00:16:35,720 Speaker 1: So we have so many themes we want to go over, 292 00:16:35,760 --> 00:16:37,800 Speaker 1: but first we're gonna pause for a quick break for 293 00:16:37,840 --> 00:16:53,600 Speaker 1: word from our sponsor, and we're back. Thank you sponsor. 294 00:16:54,400 --> 00:16:57,200 Speaker 1: So one of the themes we wanted to start out with, 295 00:16:57,280 --> 00:17:00,040 Speaker 1: which is probably one of the biggest of not the 296 00:17:00,040 --> 00:17:07,800 Speaker 1: biggest throughout, is Allison's relationship with her father, which was 297 00:17:07,920 --> 00:17:13,800 Speaker 1: fraught with yes, emotional abuse and miscommunication, and a lot 298 00:17:13,840 --> 00:17:17,840 Speaker 1: of her thoughts on this came out after her father's 299 00:17:17,880 --> 00:17:20,400 Speaker 1: death and and her kind of re examining a lot 300 00:17:20,440 --> 00:17:22,640 Speaker 1: of memories, which I think is one of the most 301 00:17:22,680 --> 00:17:25,639 Speaker 1: interesting parts of this book is that like you see 302 00:17:25,840 --> 00:17:31,240 Speaker 1: one memory presented and then she gets new information like, oh, 303 00:17:31,320 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: your father had affairs with young men and it re 304 00:17:35,480 --> 00:17:41,359 Speaker 1: contextualizes memories that she has. She understands them differently. But 305 00:17:42,520 --> 00:17:44,639 Speaker 1: it's something that we've talked about a lot on this show, 306 00:17:45,920 --> 00:17:50,440 Speaker 1: as we we get to see her processing through the 307 00:17:50,480 --> 00:17:53,800 Speaker 1: grief over his death in ways that are quote unquote 308 00:17:54,000 --> 00:17:58,840 Speaker 1: not normal. So, for one, she gets really angry when 309 00:17:59,200 --> 00:18:01,600 Speaker 1: I can't remembers the priest or the person presiding over 310 00:18:01,640 --> 00:18:04,439 Speaker 1: the funeral like pats hers shoulder and she wants to 311 00:18:04,640 --> 00:18:09,400 Speaker 1: rip his arm away. She throws like their flags put 312 00:18:09,440 --> 00:18:11,680 Speaker 1: on his grave at one point when she comes to visit, 313 00:18:11,760 --> 00:18:16,640 Speaker 1: she throws them away, little flags. And then when someone 314 00:18:16,680 --> 00:18:19,040 Speaker 1: asked her about it, how are you, and she's like, oh, 315 00:18:19,080 --> 00:18:21,440 Speaker 1: my dad died, and she says it really upbeat. It 316 00:18:21,520 --> 00:18:23,879 Speaker 1: is kind of laughing, and he's like, oh, that's funny, 317 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:26,399 Speaker 1: that's weird, and she's like, no, he actually did, and 318 00:18:26,440 --> 00:18:31,800 Speaker 1: she starts laughing. And that's just how she reacts to it. 319 00:18:32,280 --> 00:18:35,199 Speaker 1: But it does, I mean, it is presented in a 320 00:18:35,280 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 1: way even through the literature, she sites through it where 321 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:43,480 Speaker 1: it's absurdest. Almost his death is kind of absurdest, especially 322 00:18:44,560 --> 00:18:49,320 Speaker 1: when she was raised in the fun home, this funeral home, 323 00:18:49,960 --> 00:18:54,719 Speaker 1: and that did make her kind of cavalier towards death, right. 324 00:18:55,240 --> 00:18:58,200 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting too that she uses death as 325 00:18:58,200 --> 00:19:01,040 Speaker 1: an inn twice through the entire a book. And it's 326 00:19:01,080 --> 00:19:04,120 Speaker 1: not just the father's death. We're talking about the death 327 00:19:04,160 --> 00:19:06,640 Speaker 1: in literature. So she talks about those things so many 328 00:19:06,680 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: times in comparison to her father and an author that 329 00:19:10,200 --> 00:19:12,760 Speaker 1: he left that died, or something that happens within the 330 00:19:12,800 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 1: book that hits right on the head. Again. Yes, in 331 00:19:15,680 --> 00:19:18,400 Speaker 1: the origins of fun home or funeral home in her 332 00:19:18,400 --> 00:19:21,399 Speaker 1: own understanding of death and mortality, which she had to 333 00:19:21,440 --> 00:19:24,040 Speaker 1: grow up with at a very young age because she 334 00:19:24,119 --> 00:19:27,720 Speaker 1: was faced to the face with death often whe it's 335 00:19:27,720 --> 00:19:32,000 Speaker 1: because she had to vacuum, you know, the actual funeral home, 336 00:19:32,320 --> 00:19:35,080 Speaker 1: or whether she was had to go and hand scissors 337 00:19:35,240 --> 00:19:39,159 Speaker 1: to her father while he was embalming a body, and 338 00:19:39,200 --> 00:19:40,879 Speaker 1: the fact that she didn't know if this was the 339 00:19:40,960 --> 00:19:43,080 Speaker 1: test or not, and so she made sure to be 340 00:19:43,200 --> 00:19:47,080 Speaker 1: completely unemotional and without fear, and she felt like that 341 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:48,680 Speaker 1: was something that she had to do in the face 342 00:19:48,720 --> 00:19:50,840 Speaker 1: of death to prove to him that she was okay, 343 00:19:51,040 --> 00:19:53,520 Speaker 1: or that she was worthy something alongost lines. So I 344 00:19:53,560 --> 00:19:55,560 Speaker 1: feel like even though we do, yes, we definitely talk 345 00:19:55,600 --> 00:19:58,359 Speaker 1: about grief and having to grieve over or not grieve 346 00:19:58,400 --> 00:20:01,400 Speaker 1: over in the most normal, as she would like to say, 347 00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,880 Speaker 1: and we would not categorize anything as normal, but quote 348 00:20:04,960 --> 00:20:08,520 Speaker 1: unquote normal. In her father's death, we see that she's 349 00:20:08,560 --> 00:20:11,440 Speaker 1: had to confront it and to show a different reaction 350 00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:14,920 Speaker 1: than what we would consider normal as a child, especially 351 00:20:14,920 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: like she has that confrontation of seeing the family that died. 352 00:20:18,840 --> 00:20:22,920 Speaker 1: So he said, she called it the triple that came 353 00:20:22,920 --> 00:20:25,200 Speaker 1: into it, and one of them was a child, her cousin. 354 00:20:25,320 --> 00:20:27,840 Speaker 1: It turns out, I believe that was her age, and 355 00:20:27,880 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: he would just show her like this is his broken neck, 356 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:34,520 Speaker 1: and just having to look and identifying like yeah, there is, 357 00:20:34,720 --> 00:20:38,400 Speaker 1: and moving on without any fear, without any real emotions 358 00:20:38,400 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: to it. So I find that interesting that she puts 359 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:46,119 Speaker 1: that as part of uh the string throughout the entire book, 360 00:20:46,400 --> 00:20:49,480 Speaker 1: that yes, we're talking about someone's specific death, but also 361 00:20:49,520 --> 00:20:52,520 Speaker 1: there was death, whether it's also death and identity, whether 362 00:20:52,520 --> 00:20:54,600 Speaker 1: we're talking about her mom who had to give up 363 00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,119 Speaker 1: so much, or her dad who had to closet his 364 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:03,880 Speaker 1: own orientation or whatever whatnot. It's kind of like, yeah, yeah, 365 00:21:04,040 --> 00:21:06,399 Speaker 1: and that is probably one of the biggest themes in 366 00:21:06,400 --> 00:21:08,680 Speaker 1: the book as well, which we're definitely going to delve 367 00:21:08,720 --> 00:21:14,120 Speaker 1: into more later, but of the almost preference for fiction 368 00:21:14,560 --> 00:21:17,840 Speaker 1: um and living in a kind of of curdest world 369 00:21:18,640 --> 00:21:22,359 Speaker 1: and that fits that very well. And and just the 370 00:21:22,440 --> 00:21:28,840 Speaker 1: idea Alison's grandmother lives in the fun home and you know, 371 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: if there's somebody living there that you know is not 372 00:21:31,359 --> 00:21:33,760 Speaker 1: long for this world perhaps, And it's just like those 373 00:21:33,840 --> 00:21:37,480 Speaker 1: blurring line of life and death. And then her dad 374 00:21:38,200 --> 00:21:41,080 Speaker 1: went through this very after he died. He ended up 375 00:21:41,119 --> 00:21:44,199 Speaker 1: being involved in the zone the funeral home that he 376 00:21:44,240 --> 00:21:48,000 Speaker 1: worked at. Yeah, so there's a lot of layers in 377 00:21:48,040 --> 00:21:52,679 Speaker 1: that way. And then yes, there is this ambiguous nature 378 00:21:52,960 --> 00:21:56,320 Speaker 1: of his death of did he kill himself? If so, 379 00:21:56,440 --> 00:21:59,959 Speaker 1: why was it something he planned in advance? And Alison 380 00:22:00,080 --> 00:22:02,840 Speaker 1: is always trying to find clues to find meaning in that, 381 00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,600 Speaker 1: like if he had underlined a sentence in a passage, 382 00:22:06,720 --> 00:22:09,960 Speaker 1: or he was the same age as f. Scott Fitzgerald 383 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:12,800 Speaker 1: plus or minus a couple of weeks when he died, 384 00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:17,120 Speaker 1: just like trying to find all these things to give 385 00:22:17,160 --> 00:22:19,359 Speaker 1: it some sort of me because there was no note 386 00:22:19,440 --> 00:22:22,720 Speaker 1: or anything, right, he just got hit by a Sunbeam 387 00:22:22,880 --> 00:22:27,119 Speaker 1: bread truck where she made her to point out. I 388 00:22:27,160 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: did find it interesting when she brings out the narrative 389 00:22:29,000 --> 00:22:32,800 Speaker 1: of seeing the snake when they went camping, and then 390 00:22:32,840 --> 00:22:34,439 Speaker 1: she was like, maybe he saw a snake and he 391 00:22:34,520 --> 00:22:37,840 Speaker 1: jumped back, because that's what the truck driver or the 392 00:22:37,840 --> 00:22:40,639 Speaker 1: motorist said. That he was across the road. I think 393 00:22:40,720 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 1: was fine, and all of a sudden he jumps back, 394 00:22:42,520 --> 00:22:44,800 Speaker 1: So no one really knows, because he was doing what 395 00:22:44,920 --> 00:22:47,760 Speaker 1: he loved, gardening, which is apparently something that he does 396 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:51,400 Speaker 1: almost impulsively throughout her life. And she says that whether 397 00:22:51,400 --> 00:22:53,119 Speaker 1: it's they're playing a game, he sees something wrong with 398 00:22:53,160 --> 00:22:56,040 Speaker 1: the guards, so he must fix it immediately, and that's 399 00:22:56,040 --> 00:22:58,639 Speaker 1: what he was doing. So it's kind of interesting to 400 00:22:58,680 --> 00:23:01,320 Speaker 1: hear her talk about that because maybe it really wasn't accident. 401 00:23:01,480 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: Maybe it was the snake that scared him. Then we 402 00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:07,280 Speaker 1: just don't know, Yeah, And I think that's the pain 403 00:23:07,400 --> 00:23:11,560 Speaker 1: that the uncertainty, not that either is necessarily better, but 404 00:23:11,680 --> 00:23:15,480 Speaker 1: especially in terms of people in this context who love 405 00:23:16,400 --> 00:23:19,400 Speaker 1: to give meaning or to read these books, and they 406 00:23:19,640 --> 00:23:23,639 Speaker 1: even if it is absurdist ultimately, which is where I 407 00:23:23,680 --> 00:23:25,160 Speaker 1: keep coming back to, but she uses it a lot 408 00:23:25,160 --> 00:23:28,800 Speaker 1: throughout this that it has weight so you're always trying 409 00:23:28,800 --> 00:23:32,719 Speaker 1: to find that the story, the thread, and even the 410 00:23:32,760 --> 00:23:34,640 Speaker 1: fact that it feels so strange to we're talking about 411 00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,160 Speaker 1: this because this is a real person. We're referring to 412 00:23:37,160 --> 00:23:40,520 Speaker 1: her with her first name, but it's a real person. 413 00:23:40,640 --> 00:23:44,440 Speaker 1: But it's also like a fictional almost a fictional world 414 00:23:44,480 --> 00:23:49,760 Speaker 1: she created to make sense of all of this, right, Yeah, 415 00:23:49,880 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 1: So I did want to read a couple of quotes. 416 00:23:53,280 --> 00:23:56,680 Speaker 1: Maybe I'm trying to render my senseless personal loss meaningful 417 00:23:56,800 --> 00:24:01,640 Speaker 1: by linking it, however, posthumously to a more coherent narrative, 418 00:24:01,920 --> 00:24:05,480 Speaker 1: a narrative of injustice, sexual shame, and fear of life 419 00:24:05,560 --> 00:24:09,639 Speaker 1: considered expendable. And I think that's a very human trait. 420 00:24:09,760 --> 00:24:12,800 Speaker 1: I think in my case, I always want to think about, 421 00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:16,199 Speaker 1: like horror movies. I think that's a very you know, 422 00:24:16,359 --> 00:24:20,440 Speaker 1: if I hadn't done this then, or if this person 423 00:24:20,440 --> 00:24:22,000 Speaker 1: hadn't done this, they'd still be alive to day. And 424 00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:25,080 Speaker 1: it feels like you're giving meaning to your choices that 425 00:24:25,160 --> 00:24:29,680 Speaker 1: if you do the right things, you'll be fine, or 426 00:24:29,720 --> 00:24:32,520 Speaker 1: if you do the wrong things, and and these are 427 00:24:32,520 --> 00:24:34,439 Speaker 1: in like heavy right or wrong quotes, but you know, 428 00:24:34,640 --> 00:24:38,560 Speaker 1: like that then there's some sort of punishment that happens, 429 00:24:38,560 --> 00:24:40,919 Speaker 1: and that makes us feel better because it makes us 430 00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:45,560 Speaker 1: feel like we have more control over things. And then 431 00:24:45,560 --> 00:24:50,119 Speaker 1: there's another story that her grandmother, Alison's grandmother used to 432 00:24:50,119 --> 00:24:52,879 Speaker 1: tell the children, and it was a story about her 433 00:24:52,920 --> 00:24:55,240 Speaker 1: father being very young and getting stuck in the mud 434 00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 1: and not being able to get out and having to 435 00:24:58,920 --> 00:25:03,880 Speaker 1: be rescue, like pulled out by an older man. And 436 00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,359 Speaker 1: after he dies and Alison is thinking she's hard for 437 00:25:08,359 --> 00:25:11,640 Speaker 1: her to imagine him in the ground rotting, she says, 438 00:25:11,680 --> 00:25:13,879 Speaker 1: stuck in the mud for good this time, or she 439 00:25:13,960 --> 00:25:18,200 Speaker 1: thinks that right, Yeah, yeah, I do love that she 440 00:25:18,200 --> 00:25:21,000 Speaker 1: She and her brother's love the stories because it makes 441 00:25:21,000 --> 00:25:24,919 Speaker 1: her dad so human and sallable as where you know, 442 00:25:25,160 --> 00:25:27,680 Speaker 1: the man that she sees at that point in time 443 00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:31,120 Speaker 1: is seeking perfection and everything and everything must be beautiful 444 00:25:31,160 --> 00:25:34,359 Speaker 1: and pristine, and so for hard to imagine that he 445 00:25:34,520 --> 00:25:38,119 Speaker 1: was a stuck be in mud, see having to be 446 00:25:38,240 --> 00:25:41,040 Speaker 1: unclothed and naked and being taken care of and such 447 00:25:41,080 --> 00:25:43,679 Speaker 1: a whole thing for her that she's like what and 448 00:25:43,840 --> 00:25:46,239 Speaker 1: humanizing and that she just loves it as if as 449 00:25:46,280 --> 00:25:50,520 Speaker 1: a fairy tale. Yeah yeah, And I think you know, 450 00:25:50,560 --> 00:25:52,800 Speaker 1: not to get too deep, but I feel like he 451 00:25:53,240 --> 00:25:55,199 Speaker 1: was kind of stuck in the mud for most of 452 00:25:55,200 --> 00:25:59,560 Speaker 1: his life, right, because he couldn't really move on or 453 00:25:59,600 --> 00:26:05,399 Speaker 1: except himself fully, uh, And he really wanted to present 454 00:26:05,520 --> 00:26:10,320 Speaker 1: this certain persona and it made him and everyone else 455 00:26:10,560 --> 00:26:14,320 Speaker 1: around him unhappy. So it was like being stuck, right. 456 00:26:14,680 --> 00:26:17,840 Speaker 1: And yeah, you mentioned about the fact that about Fitzgerald 457 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:20,960 Speaker 1: and in the parallels in his death kind of the 458 00:26:21,040 --> 00:26:24,080 Speaker 1: age and ended upbringing and kind of that whole level 459 00:26:24,560 --> 00:26:29,360 Speaker 1: like his love for these books. I know Ulystens ended 460 00:26:29,400 --> 00:26:31,639 Speaker 1: up being his most read, most loved book, but he 461 00:26:31,640 --> 00:26:35,240 Speaker 1: also really absolutely loved Fitzgerald's books and made sure to 462 00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,600 Speaker 1: talk about it on it consistent basis. Apparently. I think 463 00:26:37,640 --> 00:26:43,120 Speaker 1: that's how he I won't say it seduced, but seeks 464 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:46,640 Speaker 1: a long conversation with younger men is by handing out 465 00:26:46,680 --> 00:26:50,159 Speaker 1: Fitzgerald's books a lot of the times. But the fact is, 466 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:52,919 Speaker 1: like she sees the similarity, like he kind of wanted 467 00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:55,879 Speaker 1: that life and he understood that life of being hidden 468 00:26:56,040 --> 00:27:00,240 Speaker 1: and wanting to become someone different and being something so 469 00:27:00,440 --> 00:27:05,640 Speaker 1: grandiose and big. And I think she also talks about 470 00:27:05,640 --> 00:27:08,840 Speaker 1: comparing him to Robert Redford and from the movie when 471 00:27:08,880 --> 00:27:10,840 Speaker 1: they saw it as a family that like, I almost 472 00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 1: talking about it as if he made a little more 473 00:27:12,520 --> 00:27:15,760 Speaker 1: sense when she watched this movie, and I'm like, yeah, 474 00:27:15,800 --> 00:27:21,080 Speaker 1: I could get that. M hmm. Yeah. So we did 475 00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:25,520 Speaker 1: want to talk about the sexual orientation and coming out 476 00:27:25,720 --> 00:27:28,880 Speaker 1: aspect of this too, because yes, the damage of being 477 00:27:28,880 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: closeted on both her father and the family is something 478 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: that Alison examines throughout, but also wondering if it would 479 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:40,160 Speaker 1: have been better or not if it was different. She 480 00:27:40,240 --> 00:27:43,960 Speaker 1: recognizes she would not exist for one or probably wouldn't, 481 00:27:44,440 --> 00:27:47,760 Speaker 1: and speculated that maybe he wouldn't have lived much longer 482 00:27:47,840 --> 00:27:50,040 Speaker 1: due to the AIDS epidemic, which you do see like 483 00:27:50,119 --> 00:27:54,080 Speaker 1: on newspapers and stuff throughout, like news about that. Here's 484 00:27:54,119 --> 00:27:58,000 Speaker 1: another quote. I suppose that a lifetime spent hiding one's 485 00:27:58,000 --> 00:28:02,480 Speaker 1: erotic truth could have a cumulate if Renuncieri affect. Sexual 486 00:28:02,520 --> 00:28:05,439 Speaker 1: shame is in itself a kind of death. So, like 487 00:28:05,480 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: you were talking about Samantha about the multiple layers of 488 00:28:10,040 --> 00:28:15,960 Speaker 1: death in this book. And then when Allison does send 489 00:28:15,960 --> 00:28:20,600 Speaker 1: the letter to her parents and then kind of gets 490 00:28:20,640 --> 00:28:24,800 Speaker 1: this not what she was expecting reaction, but also this bombshell, 491 00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,560 Speaker 1: the revelation to her about her dad. She has these 492 00:28:28,720 --> 00:28:33,399 Speaker 1: feelings of being upstaged by this news and then his 493 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,280 Speaker 1: death and wondering if coming out to your parents crossed 494 00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,520 Speaker 1: it or was part of the cause of why he 495 00:28:40,600 --> 00:28:43,000 Speaker 1: did it, because she seems pretty convinced that he did 496 00:28:43,600 --> 00:28:46,440 Speaker 1: take his own life, and still trying to put that 497 00:28:46,680 --> 00:28:51,240 Speaker 1: her experience into a cohesive narrative, wondering if the repression, 498 00:28:51,440 --> 00:28:53,320 Speaker 1: ultimately it would have been better for her family and 499 00:28:53,320 --> 00:28:56,240 Speaker 1: herself after all, like because it's and it's so kind 500 00:28:56,240 --> 00:28:58,600 Speaker 1: of heartbreaking because when this happens, she's like, well, I 501 00:28:58,600 --> 00:29:02,800 Speaker 1: hadn't really had sex with any a woman yet, questioning 502 00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,880 Speaker 1: all of the stuff, which makes sense too in response 503 00:29:06,920 --> 00:29:10,360 Speaker 1: to how they reacted to the news. Yeah, I did 504 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:14,280 Speaker 1: love though, as she talks about in later parts of 505 00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:17,640 Speaker 1: the book, and she does the hindsight of them spending 506 00:29:17,680 --> 00:29:20,240 Speaker 1: time together, and with the fact that her mother is 507 00:29:20,240 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 1: just kind of outright so as well, he's had affairs 508 00:29:22,240 --> 00:29:24,400 Speaker 1: with the young men before, blah blah blah. So she 509 00:29:24,440 --> 00:29:27,600 Speaker 1: starts asking and it was like, oh, so trying to 510 00:29:27,720 --> 00:29:30,240 Speaker 1: probe at her dad, and then the revelation about and 511 00:29:30,240 --> 00:29:32,040 Speaker 1: we're gonna talk about gender roles in a second, but 512 00:29:32,120 --> 00:29:34,880 Speaker 1: like they had a flipped idea of what they wanted 513 00:29:35,120 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: and why this conflicted with each other so much, and 514 00:29:39,000 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: then also kind of explaining who he was, and then 515 00:29:41,440 --> 00:29:44,360 Speaker 1: through the love of books and the recommendation and showing 516 00:29:44,560 --> 00:29:48,479 Speaker 1: themselves to each other without telling each other who they are, like, 517 00:29:48,520 --> 00:29:51,400 Speaker 1: you see a lot of that unfolding, and it is heartbreaking. 518 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:54,080 Speaker 1: As it becomes a point that they are actually communicating 519 00:29:54,440 --> 00:29:57,520 Speaker 1: through their own special way, it kind of still falls apart. 520 00:29:57,760 --> 00:30:01,120 Speaker 1: So it's definitely a big part of that. And again 521 00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:03,320 Speaker 1: just that we were talking about just trying to identify 522 00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:06,680 Speaker 1: when she sees the delivery person and she identifies with 523 00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,240 Speaker 1: her because she's dressed as they wouldn't want to say butch, 524 00:30:10,800 --> 00:30:14,560 Speaker 1: very very masculine, and she suddenly feels like she's not alone. 525 00:30:14,960 --> 00:30:17,440 Speaker 1: But her father also realizes this, and that's kind of 526 00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,480 Speaker 1: one of the big narratives again at the look, like 527 00:30:19,640 --> 00:30:22,000 Speaker 1: he keeps saying, yeah, I kind of knew, Yeah, I 528 00:30:22,080 --> 00:30:24,760 Speaker 1: kind of knew, Yeah, I kind of was there. He 529 00:30:24,800 --> 00:30:27,840 Speaker 1: witnesses this and realizes that she is going to have 530 00:30:27,920 --> 00:30:30,880 Speaker 1: a really difficult life like him. When he talks about 531 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:33,120 Speaker 1: the fifties in comparison to that day that she was 532 00:30:33,200 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: present and even then it still wasn't easy. We know 533 00:30:36,040 --> 00:30:38,720 Speaker 1: that the eighties and nineties were not easy, but for 534 00:30:38,800 --> 00:30:40,360 Speaker 1: him to be like, you know, in the fifties that 535 00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,840 Speaker 1: wasn't even thought of, that was very looked down on, 536 00:30:43,440 --> 00:30:46,440 Speaker 1: And just kind of that reminiscence with her when they 537 00:30:46,440 --> 00:30:49,080 Speaker 1: talk about that moment of her and when he asked, 538 00:30:49,120 --> 00:30:51,600 Speaker 1: do you you want to dress like her? That's not 539 00:30:51,680 --> 00:30:54,400 Speaker 1: how you want to be, and she's just like, obviously, 540 00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:57,400 Speaker 1: if my answer has to be no, yeah, you're like 541 00:30:57,400 --> 00:31:00,960 Speaker 1: giving me no space for anyone You're right, yeah. And 542 00:31:01,000 --> 00:31:04,640 Speaker 1: she's pretty young at this point when this happens, but 543 00:31:05,040 --> 00:31:08,880 Speaker 1: like jumping way ahead when her and her dad are 544 00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:12,480 Speaker 1: trying to have a conversation after she's come out, they're 545 00:31:12,520 --> 00:31:15,440 Speaker 1: going to the movies and they're having this really stilted 546 00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:18,960 Speaker 1: conversation which is beautifully illustrated and I read like a 547 00:31:18,960 --> 00:31:21,280 Speaker 1: breakdown of why it's so good because it makes you 548 00:31:21,320 --> 00:31:25,040 Speaker 1: sit with every panel of silence. It did remind me 549 00:31:25,040 --> 00:31:27,280 Speaker 1: of reas the topic we talked about, which is pernification, 550 00:31:27,440 --> 00:31:31,480 Speaker 1: because Alison feels more like the parent in this exchange 551 00:31:31,760 --> 00:31:33,920 Speaker 1: when her father finally starts to open up to her 552 00:31:33,960 --> 00:31:38,120 Speaker 1: a little bit about his homosexuality. She's the one that's 553 00:31:38,160 --> 00:31:42,320 Speaker 1: trying to be supportive and feels like she can't share 554 00:31:42,360 --> 00:31:45,680 Speaker 1: her experience, but it wants to hear his, and that 555 00:31:45,720 --> 00:31:49,800 Speaker 1: moment he does seem very childlike and like he he's 556 00:31:49,840 --> 00:31:52,960 Speaker 1: never spoken out loud about this before, perhaps so especially 557 00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:57,480 Speaker 1: not with people and his family right, and so vulnerable. 558 00:31:57,520 --> 00:32:05,560 Speaker 1: And then it shuts down very quickly. Conversation just fizzles out, right. Yeah. Yeah. Honestly, 559 00:32:05,760 --> 00:32:09,520 Speaker 1: her whole coming out and her parents reaction I thought 560 00:32:09,600 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 1: was interesting because her mother was upset and didn't want 561 00:32:11,920 --> 00:32:14,120 Speaker 1: to talk to her, didn't want to even acknowledge what 562 00:32:14,200 --> 00:32:16,400 Speaker 1: was happening. And I'm sure this may have triggered her 563 00:32:16,560 --> 00:32:19,040 Speaker 1: and every wady just knowing what she was going through 564 00:32:19,040 --> 00:32:22,200 Speaker 1: with her own husband. Uh, And the dad is like, 565 00:32:22,280 --> 00:32:26,440 Speaker 1: great experiment, did you or did you partake an orgy? Like? Essentially, 566 00:32:26,440 --> 00:32:30,720 Speaker 1: it was his reaction just thinking it was not necessarily 567 00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:32,640 Speaker 1: because he knows it's not just the stage, but that's 568 00:32:32,640 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 1: how he's been seeing it in his mind. So he 569 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:38,960 Speaker 1: will fulfill things in the dark, to fulfill his desires 570 00:32:38,960 --> 00:32:40,880 Speaker 1: and the darken and in secret and hope it passes, 571 00:32:40,920 --> 00:32:43,400 Speaker 1: but it never does. Obviously, so he's wondering, is just 572 00:32:43,520 --> 00:32:47,680 Speaker 1: what she's doing or you're having you're experimenting like I do, great, 573 00:32:48,960 --> 00:32:51,400 Speaker 1: but that's not really are you really? It still was 574 00:32:51,400 --> 00:32:54,320 Speaker 1: a questioning. I thought that was an interesting take as 575 00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:56,960 Speaker 1: for the man like reacting for the way he reacts 576 00:32:56,960 --> 00:33:00,920 Speaker 1: to himself, to her, who was obviously open at this point, 577 00:33:00,920 --> 00:33:05,280 Speaker 1: and I thought that was again really well put out 578 00:33:06,200 --> 00:33:09,240 Speaker 1: by her. It was reality, was what happened. The fact 579 00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:10,800 Speaker 1: that you know, he had to be like, your mother 580 00:33:10,880 --> 00:33:12,920 Speaker 1: is busy, she's kind of too upset to talk right now, 581 00:33:13,000 --> 00:33:18,320 Speaker 1: she's still processing it was still part of the reaction. Yeah, yeah, 582 00:33:18,680 --> 00:33:23,600 Speaker 1: and that's one of those situations where it kind of 583 00:33:25,480 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 1: sucks just because yes, the mother is dealing with Helen 584 00:33:29,880 --> 00:33:35,360 Speaker 1: has this pain from what she knows about her husband's 585 00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:40,040 Speaker 1: so she that she is reacting that way and then yeah, 586 00:33:40,080 --> 00:33:45,960 Speaker 1: Bruce is like very much reacting to how he thinks 587 00:33:46,200 --> 00:33:50,800 Speaker 1: he is. And then she Alison is kind of didn't 588 00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,240 Speaker 1: know this was the thing, right and was just like, 589 00:33:53,560 --> 00:33:58,800 Speaker 1: you know, trying to come out and maybe the way 590 00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:02,320 Speaker 1: she did it had this kind of like vision of 591 00:34:02,480 --> 00:34:05,000 Speaker 1: how it would go and instead it kind of and 592 00:34:05,040 --> 00:34:07,200 Speaker 1: you can't really blame everyone, but it kind of became 593 00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:14,120 Speaker 1: a very selfish thing, right, right, Yeah, Yeah, And I 594 00:34:14,160 --> 00:34:17,080 Speaker 1: also think that we can't go without mentioning the fact that, yeah, 595 00:34:17,480 --> 00:34:19,960 Speaker 1: her dad's path to the logical tendencies, the fact that 596 00:34:19,960 --> 00:34:23,320 Speaker 1: he went for young boys and even soliciting with buying 597 00:34:23,320 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: minors beer and that was his only charge with that 598 00:34:26,719 --> 00:34:30,920 Speaker 1: whole But we know, but we know why this is happening, 599 00:34:31,360 --> 00:34:36,359 Speaker 1: and it's it's very sad because you have so many 600 00:34:36,400 --> 00:34:39,880 Speaker 1: aspects of feeling sorry for people and really understanding that 601 00:34:39,920 --> 00:34:41,560 Speaker 1: this is a hard time. But at the same time, 602 00:34:41,600 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: you're like, yeah, but we can't excuse this. This is 603 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:46,359 Speaker 1: not a thing and she and she kind of does 604 00:34:46,400 --> 00:34:48,480 Speaker 1: the same thing of like, I'm not excusing this. This 605 00:34:48,560 --> 00:34:52,080 Speaker 1: is what happens. We know what happened, we just don't 606 00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:54,480 Speaker 1: talk about it and kind of that way. But I'm 607 00:34:54,640 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: and she, I'm sure, I have no idea. I didn't 608 00:34:57,880 --> 00:35:00,000 Speaker 1: read this that that she had any backlash from her 609 00:35:00,040 --> 00:35:04,120 Speaker 1: family for revealing is saying out loud was you know 610 00:35:04,360 --> 00:35:07,080 Speaker 1: when he's been keeping quiet. So it's kind of, oh, 611 00:35:07,120 --> 00:35:10,600 Speaker 1: I wonder how that went down, because when family secrets happened, 612 00:35:11,800 --> 00:35:15,920 Speaker 1: it's not pretty. But it's also offensive for the victims 613 00:35:16,000 --> 00:35:18,160 Speaker 1: or those who have been affected to ignore it as 614 00:35:18,200 --> 00:35:21,560 Speaker 1: well and pretend like it was a thing, And obviously 615 00:35:21,760 --> 00:35:24,759 Speaker 1: was a thing, as she would pinpoint each time when 616 00:35:24,760 --> 00:35:27,719 Speaker 1: there was like this dude helped us, and she would 617 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:30,120 Speaker 1: always say things like this dude helped us clean out 618 00:35:30,160 --> 00:35:32,279 Speaker 1: the basement, this dude helped us with you know, they 619 00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,120 Speaker 1: were all young students of his, which we've talked about 620 00:35:35,120 --> 00:35:38,880 Speaker 1: as many times. It's obviously a power play and it's inappropriate, 621 00:35:39,200 --> 00:35:42,960 Speaker 1: so we can't ignore those conversations either. And though it 622 00:35:43,080 --> 00:35:46,360 Speaker 1: is a black cloud in the family, she she didn't 623 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,879 Speaker 1: shy away from it for sure. Yeah, And there's also 624 00:35:49,920 --> 00:35:53,760 Speaker 1: the whole sequence where they're in New York, younger brother 625 00:35:54,120 --> 00:35:59,359 Speaker 1: ycause not missing, but it's just painted in a way 626 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:02,880 Speaker 1: where you're like, if this has gone differently, like almost 627 00:36:02,880 --> 00:36:06,280 Speaker 1: putting her father in that same box. But then he's 628 00:36:06,360 --> 00:36:09,400 Speaker 1: fine with it, like once it's once the situation is involved, 629 00:36:09,440 --> 00:36:14,120 Speaker 1: he goes out on the town, right, but he's very aware, yeah, 630 00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:17,319 Speaker 1: of what can happen and who can come after him, 631 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,120 Speaker 1: And it says, yeah, it definitely says a lot. Yeah. Yeah, 632 00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:24,560 Speaker 1: my expoy friend gave me this book. Of untranslatable words, 633 00:36:24,560 --> 00:36:28,280 Speaker 1: and one of them in there translates to the family 634 00:36:28,360 --> 00:36:32,799 Speaker 1: secret that everyone knows but everyone refuses to talk about, yeah, 635 00:36:32,920 --> 00:36:34,640 Speaker 1: which is yeah, that's a great word. But that kind 636 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: of reminds me that we do have some more themes 637 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,080 Speaker 1: we want to discuss, but first we have one more 638 00:36:41,120 --> 00:36:56,800 Speaker 1: quick break for word from our sponsor and we're back, 639 00:36:56,920 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: Thank you sponsor. So, yes, we did want to talk 640 00:37:00,480 --> 00:37:05,959 Speaker 1: about gender roles in this book because we do see 641 00:37:05,960 --> 00:37:10,439 Speaker 1: instances of dressing in gender nonconforming clothes. So Allison did 642 00:37:10,480 --> 00:37:13,919 Speaker 1: that with a friend of hers where they were kind 643 00:37:13,920 --> 00:37:16,200 Speaker 1: of playing dress up and her friend wanted to do 644 00:37:16,280 --> 00:37:17,680 Speaker 1: something else and she's like, no, this would be way 645 00:37:17,719 --> 00:37:22,200 Speaker 1: more fun in men's clothes. And she asked her dad 646 00:37:22,800 --> 00:37:24,960 Speaker 1: to get her a measured shirt and he said like, 647 00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:29,080 Speaker 1: we'll have to measure your appendages, yes, meaning breast, and 648 00:37:29,120 --> 00:37:33,520 Speaker 1: she was like, okay, no, never mind. But yeah, Alison 649 00:37:34,200 --> 00:37:37,600 Speaker 1: felt like she needed to fill the space of masculinity 650 00:37:37,680 --> 00:37:41,399 Speaker 1: her father didn't, while her father wanted to express femininityes 651 00:37:41,400 --> 00:37:45,160 Speaker 1: through her, putting them forever at quote cross purposes, a 652 00:37:45,200 --> 00:37:47,719 Speaker 1: war of cross purposes. I think I do love the 653 00:37:47,760 --> 00:37:50,279 Speaker 1: scene in the car when they had that revelation and 654 00:37:50,320 --> 00:37:52,480 Speaker 1: when she when I was younger, I wanted to be 655 00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:54,200 Speaker 1: in dresses. I wanted to dress like a girl, just 656 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: like I wanted to dress like a boy like She 657 00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:01,920 Speaker 1: says it so excitedly, but then goes quiet. Comes down 658 00:38:01,960 --> 00:38:04,919 Speaker 1: to because the realization comes down to the fact that, yeah, 659 00:38:04,960 --> 00:38:07,520 Speaker 1: they were really at odds with each other because they 660 00:38:07,600 --> 00:38:10,239 Speaker 1: were envious of the other, which but we also saw 661 00:38:10,400 --> 00:38:13,440 Speaker 1: as Allison grows up, she is giving him advice on 662 00:38:13,440 --> 00:38:15,000 Speaker 1: what kind of student he needs to wear, what kind 663 00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:16,799 Speaker 1: of things that invest that he needs to look at, 664 00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:19,920 Speaker 1: and he's like, you're you're right, you know, understanding that 665 00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:22,279 Speaker 1: that okay. Yeah. At the same time, she's having the 666 00:38:22,280 --> 00:38:25,239 Speaker 1: battle of not wanting to wear stupard barette, but he 667 00:38:25,400 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: is insistent that she must throughout to the point that 668 00:38:28,360 --> 00:38:32,600 Speaker 1: becomes physical, and she's like, why, why is this is dumb? 669 00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:34,040 Speaker 1: I don't want it. I just want a crew cut. 670 00:38:34,600 --> 00:38:36,439 Speaker 1: She literally says, I would rather have a crew cut. 671 00:38:36,840 --> 00:38:39,319 Speaker 1: And I find that interesting and just that level of 672 00:38:39,360 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: it's not necessarily that there trying to make sure that 673 00:38:42,480 --> 00:38:45,320 Speaker 1: each of them have a defined gender, but that the 674 00:38:45,360 --> 00:38:48,640 Speaker 1: fact that the other wish that they were that gender. Yes, 675 00:38:49,480 --> 00:38:52,280 Speaker 1: and I think there's a lot of shame there for 676 00:38:52,400 --> 00:38:56,520 Speaker 1: him of himself. But also I do believe he really 677 00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:59,880 Speaker 1: thought he was trying to protect her because he was 678 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:04,080 Speaker 1: afraid of how society would treat her if she didn't 679 00:39:04,160 --> 00:39:07,400 Speaker 1: hide herself like he did. But also there's a lot 680 00:39:07,480 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: of instances of him living vicariously through her throughout. And 681 00:39:12,320 --> 00:39:14,200 Speaker 1: one of the one of the scenes that sticks out 682 00:39:14,239 --> 00:39:17,880 Speaker 1: in my head is when she's coloring and as a kid, 683 00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:23,640 Speaker 1: and he takes book and starts coloring in it because 684 00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: he's like, I can do it, I can do it better. 685 00:39:26,080 --> 00:39:28,560 Speaker 1: And there's just a bunch of instances of that too, 686 00:39:28,680 --> 00:39:32,520 Speaker 1: So you can definitely see like him trying to live 687 00:39:32,560 --> 00:39:34,719 Speaker 1: through her and be feminine through her, but it's not 688 00:39:34,760 --> 00:39:36,880 Speaker 1: what she wanted and it's not what she felt her 689 00:39:36,920 --> 00:39:41,360 Speaker 1: who she was. And then there's Alison kind of observing 690 00:39:42,400 --> 00:39:44,839 Speaker 1: her mom having to clean the house, cook the food, 691 00:39:44,920 --> 00:39:49,000 Speaker 1: raise the kids, and especially when there's a scene where 692 00:39:49,040 --> 00:39:50,680 Speaker 1: Alison and her mom are at a table and her 693 00:39:50,719 --> 00:39:52,640 Speaker 1: mom is speaking to her as an adult for the 694 00:39:52,680 --> 00:39:55,120 Speaker 1: first times, kind of like I hate doing this that, 695 00:39:55,320 --> 00:39:58,000 Speaker 1: Like I hate cleaning this stupid house and it's his house, 696 00:39:58,080 --> 00:40:00,880 Speaker 1: Like I don't want to do it um having that moment, 697 00:40:00,880 --> 00:40:05,479 Speaker 1: I didn't want to live in this museum, Yeah exactly. Yeah, Yeah. 698 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: I think it's interesting because she, again we know that 699 00:40:08,160 --> 00:40:10,160 Speaker 1: at the same time, she was continuing on with her 700 00:40:10,320 --> 00:40:12,680 Speaker 1: education and wasn't having to defend her paper, and she's 701 00:40:12,719 --> 00:40:15,560 Speaker 1: doing plays, and she's trying to do all of these things. 702 00:40:15,719 --> 00:40:17,600 Speaker 1: She's trying to be the supportive wife that goes to 703 00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:20,560 Speaker 1: court with him, all of these different levels. But I 704 00:40:20,600 --> 00:40:23,680 Speaker 1: also find it interesting at the beginning of the relationship 705 00:40:23,719 --> 00:40:27,400 Speaker 1: with her mother, Helen and Bruce, that it becomes a 706 00:40:27,480 --> 00:40:30,480 Speaker 1: little explosive and she realizes what she's kind of getting into, 707 00:40:30,800 --> 00:40:32,840 Speaker 1: even though at the beginning it was all poetry and 708 00:40:32,960 --> 00:40:35,400 Speaker 1: love stories and all of these things, and calling her 709 00:40:35,440 --> 00:40:37,480 Speaker 1: a crazy bitch when she didn't want to do something 710 00:40:37,800 --> 00:40:40,680 Speaker 1: or question something or was confused about something, or when 711 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,840 Speaker 1: he would go out and do things that was obviously 712 00:40:43,880 --> 00:40:47,000 Speaker 1: against their marriage, as in he was having an affair 713 00:40:47,520 --> 00:40:51,400 Speaker 1: no matter what gender, she was having an affair and 714 00:40:51,400 --> 00:40:55,239 Speaker 1: and bringing in different types of heartaches to her that 715 00:40:55,280 --> 00:40:57,120 Speaker 1: when she would get upset that he would call her 716 00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: a crazy bitch. It was mentioned a few times, or 717 00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,759 Speaker 1: she would just kind of give up and just be 718 00:41:02,840 --> 00:41:04,759 Speaker 1: like okay and just kind of do her own thing 719 00:41:04,840 --> 00:41:07,760 Speaker 1: in her own world. And that included doing those plays 720 00:41:07,800 --> 00:41:11,120 Speaker 1: that she loved and doing it to her best, including 721 00:41:11,320 --> 00:41:14,879 Speaker 1: memorizing everybody else's lines so she didn't flub one line 722 00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,399 Speaker 1: at all. Right, Yeah, and that kind of goes back 723 00:41:17,400 --> 00:41:20,319 Speaker 1: to that the whole fiction aspect that is in this 724 00:41:20,680 --> 00:41:23,879 Speaker 1: of people choosing to live in these fiction worlds more 725 00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:26,759 Speaker 1: than reality. And yeah, like you said, Samantha, that that 726 00:41:26,880 --> 00:41:30,000 Speaker 1: broke my heart too when it described her. Alison described 727 00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:32,560 Speaker 1: her picture as dull, like she had just been told 728 00:41:33,320 --> 00:41:36,680 Speaker 1: so much from like when they first got married to 729 00:41:37,000 --> 00:41:40,040 Speaker 1: several years later. But yeah, that was kind of one 730 00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,960 Speaker 1: instance where at least felt to me that Alison was 731 00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:46,000 Speaker 1: observing this between her parents and was like the gender 732 00:41:46,120 --> 00:41:49,480 Speaker 1: roles of her mom having to do this stuff didn't 733 00:41:49,520 --> 00:41:53,879 Speaker 1: necessarily make sense, right click, And then I just wanted 734 00:41:53,920 --> 00:41:58,080 Speaker 1: to mention there is a whole segment of Alson getting 735 00:41:58,080 --> 00:42:01,359 Speaker 1: her first period and trying so desperate to hide it. 736 00:42:01,760 --> 00:42:03,759 Speaker 1: I do love her things of trying to figure out 737 00:42:03,840 --> 00:42:05,879 Speaker 1: when she needs to say it. She's like not now 738 00:42:06,320 --> 00:42:09,440 Speaker 1: not and even talking about the fact that as particulous 739 00:42:09,440 --> 00:42:12,080 Speaker 1: as she was, and as factual as she was for 740 00:42:12,120 --> 00:42:14,920 Speaker 1: her journaling and diary, they were, she did not write 741 00:42:14,920 --> 00:42:18,640 Speaker 1: it out or she was slowed through the entire time 742 00:42:18,800 --> 00:42:21,879 Speaker 1: until she finally does and her mom's reaction, but non 743 00:42:21,880 --> 00:42:24,719 Speaker 1: reaction she talks about her mom starts shaking, So I've 744 00:42:24,719 --> 00:42:26,799 Speaker 1: got like, I don't know, I didn't exactly know what 745 00:42:26,840 --> 00:42:29,040 Speaker 1: that meant, but obviously it was a big deal enough 746 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:32,160 Speaker 1: that she was trying not to react, but she was reacting, 747 00:42:32,160 --> 00:42:34,440 Speaker 1: and I found that super interesting, as well as the 748 00:42:34,520 --> 00:42:38,520 Speaker 1: fact that asking her are you cramping? Which I feel like, yeah, 749 00:42:38,520 --> 00:42:40,560 Speaker 1: I think for her as a mother, she's just trying 750 00:42:40,560 --> 00:42:43,000 Speaker 1: to find out that she's in pain. And I was like, 751 00:42:43,040 --> 00:42:46,640 Speaker 1: that makes sense. That makes sense because I had extensive 752 00:42:46,640 --> 00:42:49,799 Speaker 1: amounts of pain from cramps and my mother understood it 753 00:42:50,200 --> 00:42:51,959 Speaker 1: and trying to take care of me as much she could. 754 00:42:52,160 --> 00:42:54,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, that was her only reaction. Do you need 755 00:42:54,680 --> 00:43:00,719 Speaker 1: more pats? Are you cramping? Yep? Yeah, which is kind 756 00:43:00,719 --> 00:43:05,080 Speaker 1: of a anticlimactic because Alison had been hiding it like 757 00:43:05,120 --> 00:43:06,839 Speaker 1: this is going to be such a huge deal, which 758 00:43:06,840 --> 00:43:11,840 Speaker 1: it is, but her mom was kind of So we 759 00:43:11,880 --> 00:43:14,160 Speaker 1: wanted to wrap this up with art because we've been 760 00:43:14,200 --> 00:43:17,680 Speaker 1: talking about that art and how the fiction aspect and 761 00:43:17,680 --> 00:43:22,319 Speaker 1: trying to find a narrative have been just present throughout this. 762 00:43:22,719 --> 00:43:26,840 Speaker 1: There are so many literary references f Scott Fitsjerild, James Joyce, 763 00:43:26,880 --> 00:43:29,759 Speaker 1: Marcella Proust, Kate Millett. The list goes on and on. 764 00:43:30,280 --> 00:43:32,239 Speaker 1: And this is one thing I related a lot to 765 00:43:32,960 --> 00:43:37,440 Speaker 1: communicating with your dad through art. We weren't great at communicating, 766 00:43:37,640 --> 00:43:40,080 Speaker 1: but we did love movies. He loved movies and I 767 00:43:40,120 --> 00:43:43,000 Speaker 1: loved movies, and he would send me movies when I 768 00:43:43,040 --> 00:43:45,520 Speaker 1: was in college, um, and that's what we would talk about. 769 00:43:45,600 --> 00:43:48,880 Speaker 1: To a lesser extent, books. He was also extremely poetic 770 00:43:48,880 --> 00:43:51,040 Speaker 1: and would do the same thing where he would underline 771 00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,240 Speaker 1: things or he would quote things to me all the time, 772 00:43:54,920 --> 00:43:58,000 Speaker 1: which I and his relationship with my mom, he would 773 00:43:58,000 --> 00:44:00,560 Speaker 1: write her poetry. It was very similar, and that like 774 00:44:02,200 --> 00:44:08,000 Speaker 1: very artistic and almost presentation of here's my perfect family. 775 00:44:08,040 --> 00:44:11,120 Speaker 1: And I'm not necessarily sure that's what he really wanted, 776 00:44:11,160 --> 00:44:12,880 Speaker 1: but it's what he thought he wanted and what he 777 00:44:12,920 --> 00:44:16,279 Speaker 1: wanted to present to people. He he was very much 778 00:44:16,960 --> 00:44:21,719 Speaker 1: similar in this whole kind of vein of quoting things 779 00:44:21,760 --> 00:44:24,400 Speaker 1: and ask you to read things or see certain movies 780 00:44:24,560 --> 00:44:31,759 Speaker 1: or things like that. And I do think, I don't know, 781 00:44:31,800 --> 00:44:34,000 Speaker 1: I just really related to that. I really related to 782 00:44:35,680 --> 00:44:38,919 Speaker 1: that whole thing where it's almost easier to build this 783 00:44:39,400 --> 00:44:42,719 Speaker 1: fiction world, or or to use this fiction world to 784 00:44:42,760 --> 00:44:45,520 Speaker 1: try to have a conversation that might be difficult or 785 00:44:46,239 --> 00:44:49,560 Speaker 1: that you don't feel certain in communicating with with the 786 00:44:49,600 --> 00:44:52,680 Speaker 1: other person, right, And yeah, I think you're not the 787 00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:56,040 Speaker 1: only one. People who feel disconnected from their parents find 788 00:44:56,080 --> 00:44:59,160 Speaker 1: a common ground. And yeah, you're talking about living vacariously. 789 00:44:59,400 --> 00:45:01,800 Speaker 1: One of the things in college, one of the biggest 790 00:45:01,800 --> 00:45:05,760 Speaker 1: things that really helped them communicate was her taking classes 791 00:45:06,080 --> 00:45:08,560 Speaker 1: with literature and of course having to actually take a 792 00:45:08,680 --> 00:45:12,160 Speaker 1: class about ulysses and having to sit and listen to 793 00:45:12,200 --> 00:45:13,719 Speaker 1: her dad. Of course she got to the point that 794 00:45:13,760 --> 00:45:16,160 Speaker 1: she got tired of it, but the fact that they 795 00:45:16,200 --> 00:45:19,359 Speaker 1: were living bacarously through each other, to really be in 796 00:45:19,480 --> 00:45:21,520 Speaker 1: love with something, or being able to discuss something, or 797 00:45:21,560 --> 00:45:25,719 Speaker 1: to be able to understand something in such depth and perception, 798 00:45:25,800 --> 00:45:28,359 Speaker 1: or maybe just too too much. You're like a mom, 799 00:45:28,440 --> 00:45:30,279 Speaker 1: calmed down. I did love her. She's like, calm down, 800 00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:33,080 Speaker 1: I think you're okay. Then it later transfers as the 801 00:45:33,160 --> 00:45:35,319 Speaker 1: Kate Millet and the fact that her dad was like, 802 00:45:35,320 --> 00:45:37,680 Speaker 1: oh my god, and doing the same thing. She talks 803 00:45:37,680 --> 00:45:40,200 Speaker 1: about how he had left that book for her, and 804 00:45:40,239 --> 00:45:42,680 Speaker 1: then the vice versa. She had left that book for him, 805 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,920 Speaker 1: and he is so enthralled and loving something new, something 806 00:45:46,960 --> 00:45:51,399 Speaker 1: brand new, and it is because of her knowing who 807 00:45:51,440 --> 00:45:54,360 Speaker 1: he was through literature, and I think that was beautiful. 808 00:45:54,440 --> 00:45:57,760 Speaker 1: That is their biggest connection. Also her understanding of his death, 809 00:45:58,080 --> 00:45:59,640 Speaker 1: Like that's one of the biggest ways she was able 810 00:45:59,680 --> 00:46:02,600 Speaker 1: to neck to his death. Whether it was by suicide 811 00:46:02,680 --> 00:46:05,279 Speaker 1: or not, it was through literature, like the whether she's 812 00:46:05,360 --> 00:46:09,320 Speaker 1: underlining something, or he's underlying something, or he's loving a character. 813 00:46:09,760 --> 00:46:14,000 Speaker 1: She has some kind of commonality with these books to 814 00:46:14,080 --> 00:46:16,200 Speaker 1: connect to him and his death. And I think it 815 00:46:16,320 --> 00:46:19,560 Speaker 1: is a very beautiful way of understanding him. Especially it 816 00:46:19,640 --> 00:46:22,279 Speaker 1: was something that he loved, like it's it's it's a 817 00:46:22,360 --> 00:46:24,600 Speaker 1: bigger point of like, it's not something that I love, 818 00:46:24,760 --> 00:46:26,719 Speaker 1: is something that he loved and I've found it. And 819 00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:30,160 Speaker 1: of course his whole library. The fact that he was 820 00:46:30,200 --> 00:46:32,399 Speaker 1: able to give her ten thousand books. It was so 821 00:46:32,480 --> 00:46:34,480 Speaker 1: excited And I get that way too. I don't know 822 00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,680 Speaker 1: a by you when someone is interested in something I 823 00:46:36,719 --> 00:46:39,280 Speaker 1: like and then start asking me questions. I start pulling 824 00:46:39,280 --> 00:46:41,520 Speaker 1: out references. Here, you go, do this, you need to 825 00:46:41,520 --> 00:46:43,319 Speaker 1: do this. You didn't look at this. I mean that 826 00:46:43,480 --> 00:46:46,839 Speaker 1: kind of love and level of you're able to see 827 00:46:46,880 --> 00:46:50,120 Speaker 1: me is is a beautiful thing. And it's through this art. 828 00:46:50,400 --> 00:46:52,600 Speaker 1: Of course, I don't think anyone understood his art and 829 00:46:52,680 --> 00:46:56,160 Speaker 1: love through his house. That seemed like a point of 830 00:46:56,200 --> 00:46:59,480 Speaker 1: contention for all of them, but she still understood what 831 00:46:59,520 --> 00:47:02,319 Speaker 1: he was getting towards. Yeah, and that is something you 832 00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:07,200 Speaker 1: can understand something about someone based on, especially if they're 833 00:47:07,239 --> 00:47:10,560 Speaker 1: really passionate about a certain character. For my dad, my 834 00:47:10,640 --> 00:47:13,360 Speaker 1: dad loved to kill Mocking Berne. He loved Atticus Finch, 835 00:47:13,440 --> 00:47:17,439 Speaker 1: and he was a lawyer and he represented people who 836 00:47:17,480 --> 00:47:21,560 Speaker 1: couldn't afford to represent themselves, and and just knowing that, 837 00:47:21,640 --> 00:47:24,960 Speaker 1: like you know something about that person. And it was 838 00:47:25,040 --> 00:47:27,400 Speaker 1: kind of like funny and sad to me of the 839 00:47:28,320 --> 00:47:29,719 Speaker 1: where she went to college and she's like, I never 840 00:47:29,760 --> 00:47:32,200 Speaker 1: take English again because her father was trying so hard 841 00:47:32,200 --> 00:47:34,640 Speaker 1: to live vicariously through her. My dad was kind of 842 00:47:34,680 --> 00:47:37,960 Speaker 1: the same, but I I was like, no, I'm never 843 00:47:38,000 --> 00:47:40,319 Speaker 1: going to be a teacher, and so I shut it down. 844 00:47:40,360 --> 00:47:45,640 Speaker 1: I guess, but yeah, I connected with that as well. Um, 845 00:47:45,719 --> 00:47:50,080 Speaker 1: something else I did find interesting is which we've been 846 00:47:50,080 --> 00:47:52,200 Speaker 1: talking about, but I thought it was interesting that not 847 00:47:52,320 --> 00:47:56,160 Speaker 1: only does this book examine memory and the failings of 848 00:47:56,239 --> 00:48:00,000 Speaker 1: memory or how it can get re contextualized, it also 849 00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:04,120 Speaker 1: talks about recontextualizing art and mistranslating art. There's a couple 850 00:48:04,160 --> 00:48:06,040 Speaker 1: of examples she gives where she talks about like I 851 00:48:06,040 --> 00:48:08,720 Speaker 1: think this is a mistranslation, like from French to English 852 00:48:08,760 --> 00:48:12,560 Speaker 1: or whatever. Are her father using Albert Camus and his 853 00:48:12,640 --> 00:48:17,719 Speaker 1: thoughts on suicide, but ultimately the thoughts on suicide where 854 00:48:17,840 --> 00:48:21,760 Speaker 1: it's absurd, like choosing, picking and choosing and re contextualizing 855 00:48:22,160 --> 00:48:25,640 Speaker 1: happening not only in memory and in our real lives, 856 00:48:25,640 --> 00:48:28,040 Speaker 1: but also in the art that we do consume, which 857 00:48:28,040 --> 00:48:32,520 Speaker 1: does inform our real lives, which I thought was really interesting. 858 00:48:32,920 --> 00:48:35,600 Speaker 1: And then one of the things that I think we 859 00:48:35,600 --> 00:48:38,640 Speaker 1: should come back and talk about later is the power 860 00:48:38,800 --> 00:48:43,279 Speaker 1: of images, because um, that's not necessarily discussed in this 861 00:48:43,719 --> 00:48:45,759 Speaker 1: but it is a part by nature of it being 862 00:48:45,800 --> 00:48:50,480 Speaker 1: a graphic novel. That's why most people, including Alison Bechdel, 863 00:48:50,560 --> 00:48:53,320 Speaker 1: think this has been the target of so many banning 864 00:48:53,360 --> 00:48:57,000 Speaker 1: and censorship efforts because it's I think she said something like, 865 00:48:57,040 --> 00:48:59,400 Speaker 1: I guarantee you there's more things in there that have 866 00:48:59,480 --> 00:49:02,680 Speaker 1: way more gay sex than this, but this is illustrated 867 00:49:02,680 --> 00:49:05,520 Speaker 1: that it's hard and you can see it. So that's 868 00:49:05,520 --> 00:49:07,960 Speaker 1: why it made people so uncomfortable, which I think is 869 00:49:08,719 --> 00:49:13,200 Speaker 1: worth returning to in the future. And then I just 870 00:49:14,480 --> 00:49:16,600 Speaker 1: I did want to talk briefly, I mean, just to 871 00:49:16,680 --> 00:49:22,800 Speaker 1: mention of this whole idea that's present of Daedalus and Icarus, 872 00:49:22,920 --> 00:49:27,319 Speaker 1: of akers find Tukos's sun, but Allison is kind of 873 00:49:27,320 --> 00:49:31,919 Speaker 1: constantly making comparison to that. But Allison's father was there 874 00:49:31,960 --> 00:49:34,000 Speaker 1: to catch her in her memory of jumping off the 875 00:49:34,040 --> 00:49:36,400 Speaker 1: diving board, which is I thought it was really sweet 876 00:49:37,040 --> 00:49:40,800 Speaker 1: and well done and it makes her you know, question, 877 00:49:42,200 --> 00:49:45,960 Speaker 1: is there's somebody to catch him, right or had he 878 00:49:46,040 --> 00:49:50,399 Speaker 1: been like just all these years waiting, right? But yeah, 879 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:53,640 Speaker 1: it was really touching. It was yeah, And you know, 880 00:49:53,840 --> 00:49:56,480 Speaker 1: she actually did talk about the fact that about the 881 00:49:56,560 --> 00:50:00,359 Speaker 1: mistranslation and learning new things after the book was least, 882 00:50:00,400 --> 00:50:01,920 Speaker 1: and she talked about the fact that she's like, oh, 883 00:50:01,960 --> 00:50:04,000 Speaker 1: I would you know, there's so many things that I'm like, oh, 884 00:50:04,080 --> 00:50:06,800 Speaker 1: that makes more sense, And yeah, it would have changed 885 00:50:06,840 --> 00:50:09,360 Speaker 1: that perspective of the book. Had I known these things, 886 00:50:09,560 --> 00:50:12,200 Speaker 1: but I'm glad I didn't because it makes it more 887 00:50:12,200 --> 00:50:14,399 Speaker 1: honest from me. But I felt like that was such 888 00:50:14,440 --> 00:50:16,759 Speaker 1: an interesting idea. Is like, there's so many things that 889 00:50:16,800 --> 00:50:18,920 Speaker 1: we don't know behind pictures. You know. You and I've 890 00:50:18,920 --> 00:50:21,279 Speaker 1: talked about this before, and I've talked about it with 891 00:50:21,320 --> 00:50:23,160 Speaker 1: so many people recently, that we don't know what has 892 00:50:23,200 --> 00:50:25,919 Speaker 1: happened through the generations of our families, so we don't 893 00:50:25,920 --> 00:50:29,040 Speaker 1: see the true stories. And oftentimes because there are parents 894 00:50:29,280 --> 00:50:31,880 Speaker 1: or we're connected with them on an everyday basis, we 895 00:50:31,880 --> 00:50:34,440 Speaker 1: don't think to ask. We just assume we know. And 896 00:50:34,480 --> 00:50:36,520 Speaker 1: then when people start asking and you're like, oh, I 897 00:50:37,520 --> 00:50:40,840 Speaker 1: didn't know that about you what? It changes so much 898 00:50:40,920 --> 00:50:44,320 Speaker 1: perspective later on, it could change the whole book in general, 899 00:50:44,360 --> 00:50:46,680 Speaker 1: the whole novel in general too, Like I wouldn't want 900 00:50:46,719 --> 00:50:50,279 Speaker 1: to change that, but there's definitely new things that I 901 00:50:50,280 --> 00:50:52,400 Speaker 1: have learned that I'm like, wow, you know, And I 902 00:50:52,400 --> 00:50:55,279 Speaker 1: feel like that's something to note because of course, as 903 00:50:55,320 --> 00:50:58,640 Speaker 1: we go into any kind of conversation about our own 904 00:50:58,640 --> 00:51:01,239 Speaker 1: past and our families past, there's so much that we 905 00:51:01,320 --> 00:51:04,239 Speaker 1: miss out and how things get mistranslated or even just 906 00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:08,640 Speaker 1: left out altogether, and I think it makes it interesting. Yeah, yeah, 907 00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,520 Speaker 1: I'm glad you brought that up. I hadn't read that 908 00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:15,320 Speaker 1: from her, but that is that is really interesting. Well, 909 00:51:15,880 --> 00:51:18,759 Speaker 1: clearly a lot to talk about. Very highly recommend this 910 00:51:18,800 --> 00:51:21,440 Speaker 1: book and you have not read it. And as always 911 00:51:21,719 --> 00:51:26,399 Speaker 1: we love getting book recommendations from you listeners. You can 912 00:51:26,560 --> 00:51:29,160 Speaker 1: send them to her email. It is Stuff Media mom 913 00:51:29,200 --> 00:51:31,480 Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can find 914 00:51:31,560 --> 00:51:33,239 Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You are 915 00:51:33,280 --> 00:51:35,640 Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks It's Always started. 916 00:51:35,680 --> 00:51:39,000 Speaker 1: Super producer Christina, Thank you, and thanks to you for 917 00:51:39,080 --> 00:51:41,319 Speaker 1: listening Stuff I Never Told. Your direction of I Heart 918 00:51:41,360 --> 00:51:43,279 Speaker 1: Radio For more podcast from my Heart Radio is at 919 00:51:43,320 --> 00:51:45,279 Speaker 1: the I Heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you 920 00:51:45,360 --> 00:52:04,680 Speaker 1: listen to your favorite shows