1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:27,440 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of iHeartRadio. Welcome back to 2 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:30,680 Speaker 1: the show, follow Ridiculous Historians. Thank you, as always so 3 00:00:30,880 --> 00:00:32,919 Speaker 1: much for tuning in. Let's hear it for the Man, 4 00:00:33,000 --> 00:00:38,680 Speaker 1: the Myth, the Legend, our super producer, mister Max Williams. Yes, 5 00:00:38,960 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 1: not to be confused with the Atlanta band. They call 6 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:48,960 Speaker 1: me Ben Bolan. You were Noel Brown and sure and 7 00:00:49,360 --> 00:00:51,560 Speaker 1: Hi the government says. 8 00:00:51,600 --> 00:00:53,680 Speaker 2: So we were having an improv chat off air and 9 00:00:53,720 --> 00:00:55,880 Speaker 2: I was saying, like no butt and Ben was talking 10 00:00:55,880 --> 00:00:58,440 Speaker 2: about how he saw an anti improv group and that. 11 00:00:58,440 --> 00:01:00,880 Speaker 3: Was kind of their whole philosophy. So that fascinated me. 12 00:01:01,520 --> 00:01:05,960 Speaker 1: Yes, and we've been going through a bit of an 13 00:01:06,000 --> 00:01:10,080 Speaker 1: elephant phase both on this and our sister show, The 14 00:01:10,200 --> 00:01:14,399 Speaker 1: Stuff They Don't Want You to Know. And we way 15 00:01:14,440 --> 00:01:17,520 Speaker 1: back when we started this show in twenty seventeen, Noel, 16 00:01:17,560 --> 00:01:19,440 Speaker 1: as you recall, we thought it would last for like 17 00:01:19,480 --> 00:01:20,360 Speaker 1: six weeks. 18 00:01:20,160 --> 00:01:23,320 Speaker 2: Right we did, And we had this idea that we 19 00:01:23,360 --> 00:01:26,520 Speaker 2: would have like quirky guests that were like a recurring 20 00:01:26,600 --> 00:01:29,760 Speaker 2: guest that kind of came on as characters like the 21 00:01:29,880 --> 00:01:32,000 Speaker 2: Quister who. 22 00:01:31,880 --> 00:01:33,640 Speaker 3: Still pops on from time to time. 23 00:01:33,720 --> 00:01:37,399 Speaker 2: But Lauren initially was one of those and was this 24 00:01:37,440 --> 00:01:40,440 Speaker 2: thing called the fact Genie and I think we did 25 00:01:40,480 --> 00:01:41,319 Speaker 2: that all of once. 26 00:01:41,760 --> 00:01:45,240 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, our very first guest, there's a bit of 27 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,200 Speaker 1: ridiculous history lore. Our very first guest was none other 28 00:01:49,320 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 1: than the legendary Lauren Vogelbaum. You know her from Brain Stuff, 29 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:57,760 Speaker 1: American Shadows, Savor, Sorrow Bread. That's a deep cut in 30 00:01:57,800 --> 00:02:02,200 Speaker 1: pretty much any video series back in the day. This 31 00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,400 Speaker 1: is a big one for us, folks, because we finally 32 00:02:06,200 --> 00:02:08,839 Speaker 1: convinced Laura to come back on the show. It only 33 00:02:08,840 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: took us a decade or so, so. 34 00:02:11,320 --> 00:02:14,639 Speaker 2: I was gonna say an email. Yeah, I mean, it's more, more, 35 00:02:15,040 --> 00:02:17,080 Speaker 2: more and more. Timing wise, You're right, it just the 36 00:02:17,080 --> 00:02:20,480 Speaker 2: email took a long time to write. 37 00:02:25,919 --> 00:02:29,800 Speaker 1: So Born, thank you so much for joining us. Dude, 38 00:02:29,800 --> 00:02:31,600 Speaker 1: you reached out to us not too long ago with 39 00:02:31,639 --> 00:02:33,200 Speaker 1: a pretty fascinating idea. 40 00:02:33,400 --> 00:02:36,720 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, well thanks for having me back. I'm glad 41 00:02:36,720 --> 00:02:39,760 Speaker 4: to do this about once every nine years, so yeah, 42 00:02:39,840 --> 00:02:44,000 Speaker 4: any anytime nine years from now. Reached back out. But yeah, no, 43 00:02:44,080 --> 00:02:47,000 Speaker 4: I reached out to y'all because so for brain Stuff, 44 00:02:47,040 --> 00:02:50,520 Speaker 4: I do various like little short form science and history things, 45 00:02:50,720 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 4: and one thing that I ran across was this stuff 46 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:58,040 Speaker 4: about the discovery of mastodons in America in like the 47 00:02:58,080 --> 00:03:03,200 Speaker 4: seventeen hundreds, and it actually touches on some really weird things, 48 00:03:03,240 --> 00:03:06,560 Speaker 4: including some stuff that I didn't feel comfortable talking about 49 00:03:06,600 --> 00:03:09,240 Speaker 4: on brain Stuff because it is like a very polite, 50 00:03:09,440 --> 00:03:13,480 Speaker 4: buttoned up like all ages show. And I was like, hey, 51 00:03:13,520 --> 00:03:14,640 Speaker 4: I know who wants to get weird? 52 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:18,799 Speaker 1: Oh good, that's where we are in your rolex, right 53 00:03:19,120 --> 00:03:22,040 Speaker 1: rollo ox, we're your rolex. We don't know what kind 54 00:03:22,040 --> 00:03:27,760 Speaker 1: of watches you owed neither. This definitely stood out to 55 00:03:27,840 --> 00:03:31,440 Speaker 1: us because I believe it's a story none of us 56 00:03:31,680 --> 00:03:36,160 Speaker 1: were familiar with until we heard from you. And we know, 57 00:03:37,120 --> 00:03:39,640 Speaker 1: like for all of us in the crowd tonight, we 58 00:03:39,720 --> 00:03:44,120 Speaker 1: all kind of know what a mammoth is or a mastodon, 59 00:03:44,400 --> 00:03:49,520 Speaker 1: But right, they are elephants, Right, they're elephants kissing cousins. 60 00:03:49,800 --> 00:03:51,640 Speaker 1: Could you tell us a little bit more about the 61 00:03:51,640 --> 00:03:54,680 Speaker 1: mammoth and the mastodon and how they're different. 62 00:03:55,280 --> 00:03:59,000 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, so okay, So we know today that like 63 00:03:59,120 --> 00:04:02,560 Speaker 4: millions of years ago, lots of megafauna roamed the earth 64 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:04,720 Speaker 4: more than what we have now. You know, we still 65 00:04:04,720 --> 00:04:10,040 Speaker 4: have some impressive ones. But right, uh, mammoths were they 66 00:04:10,040 --> 00:04:13,600 Speaker 4: were mammoth right, like the species could reach fourteen feet 67 00:04:13,640 --> 00:04:16,880 Speaker 4: at the shoulder. These are upsettingly large herbivores. 68 00:04:17,279 --> 00:04:20,080 Speaker 2: Think maybe where the word came from, right, which is it? 69 00:04:20,080 --> 00:04:22,799 Speaker 2: It's like, was it the mammoth or the word mammoth 70 00:04:22,920 --> 00:04:23,880 Speaker 2: is something very large? 71 00:04:24,080 --> 00:04:26,479 Speaker 4: He came first, the animal came first, and then it 72 00:04:26,520 --> 00:04:27,400 Speaker 4: got extrapolated. 73 00:04:27,480 --> 00:04:30,200 Speaker 3: Thought it might have been yeah, yeah, probably. 74 00:04:30,600 --> 00:04:33,560 Speaker 4: Of course, probably influenced by the word behemoth to jump 75 00:04:33,600 --> 00:04:34,240 Speaker 4: in you real quick? 76 00:04:34,400 --> 00:04:35,800 Speaker 5: Can we just go ahead and get a Louren with 77 00:04:35,800 --> 00:04:36,640 Speaker 5: the facts right there? 78 00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 3: Who guess hosting the show. 79 00:04:43,040 --> 00:04:44,520 Speaker 1: She's on this podcast? 80 00:04:44,720 --> 00:04:53,480 Speaker 2: Lawrence got, yeah, you have to sure. 81 00:04:53,480 --> 00:04:56,240 Speaker 5: I'm mostly called that because I actually have created that 82 00:04:56,320 --> 00:04:58,480 Speaker 5: sound Q years ago, So I was gonna use it. 83 00:04:58,600 --> 00:05:02,760 Speaker 1: No, Joe, Well think, okay, thank you. Uh yeah, we 84 00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:05,159 Speaker 1: know it. It came from we know the word for 85 00:05:05,200 --> 00:05:07,480 Speaker 1: all our etymology nerds out there, we know it comes 86 00:05:07,520 --> 00:05:12,880 Speaker 1: from uh, Siberia, right, from a Russian word out in 87 00:05:13,120 --> 00:05:16,919 Speaker 1: out in that neck of the woods that ultimately means earthhorn. 88 00:05:17,560 --> 00:05:20,400 Speaker 1: And then later it becomes something where people just say, 89 00:05:20,920 --> 00:05:25,239 Speaker 1: look at that mammoth pizza or caesadiya, et cetera. 90 00:05:25,640 --> 00:05:29,520 Speaker 4: Yeah, mammoth. Yeah, people got so excited about these elephant 91 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:33,880 Speaker 4: like fossils. Uh it is, I mean, and they're still 92 00:05:33,880 --> 00:05:36,520 Speaker 4: pretty exciting. I mean, I've been to the Libria Tarpit 93 00:05:36,680 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 4: Museum out in La and it's it's awesome. It's so 94 00:05:40,080 --> 00:05:43,000 Speaker 4: bones are great. Uh, you can just go ahead and 95 00:05:43,320 --> 00:05:46,320 Speaker 4: keep the audio for that one. But yeah, so so submit. 96 00:05:46,480 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 4: So the difference between mamoson mastodons is a their range. 97 00:05:50,480 --> 00:05:54,560 Speaker 4: Mammos spread across Europe, Africa, Asia, and North America. North 98 00:05:54,560 --> 00:05:58,440 Speaker 4: America further had mastodons, and mastodons were usually a little 99 00:05:58,480 --> 00:06:02,320 Speaker 4: smaller merely this of today's elephants, so up to like 100 00:06:02,400 --> 00:06:07,240 Speaker 4: ten feet at the shoulder. And yeah, they also weren't 101 00:06:07,279 --> 00:06:11,480 Speaker 4: as shaggy as mammoths and their teeth. Masted on teeth 102 00:06:11,480 --> 00:06:15,720 Speaker 4: had these like knobby cusps for chewing, like shrubby, woody 103 00:06:15,839 --> 00:06:18,920 Speaker 4: kind of plants, whereas mammoths were more like planes animals 104 00:06:18,960 --> 00:06:20,040 Speaker 4: that were dealing with grasses. 105 00:06:20,480 --> 00:06:22,440 Speaker 3: Quick question and clarification. 106 00:06:22,680 --> 00:06:26,960 Speaker 2: Is the wooly implied in mammoth or is there also 107 00:06:27,040 --> 00:06:29,360 Speaker 2: another type of mammoth that is the wooly mammoth? 108 00:06:29,560 --> 00:06:32,960 Speaker 4: The wooly is a species of mammoth. Mammoths are a 109 00:06:33,080 --> 00:06:36,200 Speaker 4: general genus of buddies. 110 00:06:35,880 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: All of which are little shaggy though. 111 00:06:38,240 --> 00:06:39,360 Speaker 4: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. 112 00:06:39,839 --> 00:06:41,799 Speaker 3: The wooly ones are just woolier shaggier. 113 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:47,320 Speaker 1: Yeah. This is not to disparage modern day extance elephants. 114 00:06:47,400 --> 00:06:50,760 Speaker 1: They have haired, they just they don't have as much 115 00:06:50,760 --> 00:06:55,440 Speaker 1: hair perhaps, and they are not as big as the 116 00:06:55,440 --> 00:07:00,280 Speaker 1: They're not as big as the mammoth itself, but still 117 00:07:00,279 --> 00:07:02,919 Speaker 1: can't take one one on one in a fight. We 118 00:07:02,920 --> 00:07:06,039 Speaker 1: we talked about this pretty extensively on stuff they don't 119 00:07:06,080 --> 00:07:06,800 Speaker 1: want you to know. 120 00:07:08,400 --> 00:07:10,280 Speaker 4: I love that you guys are having like an elephant 121 00:07:10,320 --> 00:07:12,040 Speaker 4: month like that's yeah, that's terrific. 122 00:07:12,280 --> 00:07:14,640 Speaker 2: That's why I thought you're also going to say I 123 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:17,440 Speaker 2: love that y'all are like, you know, speculating us if 124 00:07:17,480 --> 00:07:20,720 Speaker 2: you could take what large animals and fight. Yeah, Now 125 00:07:20,840 --> 00:07:23,080 Speaker 2: there are other ones to to come up. Kangaroo comes 126 00:07:23,160 --> 00:07:23,800 Speaker 2: up quite often. 127 00:07:24,200 --> 00:07:26,679 Speaker 4: I earnestly. I wouldn't mess with one, definitely. 128 00:07:26,720 --> 00:07:31,520 Speaker 1: Well, it's not that you choose to be in that situation. 129 00:07:31,640 --> 00:07:35,120 Speaker 1: That's if you get in a situation, what happens next. 130 00:07:36,560 --> 00:07:39,080 Speaker 1: We don't have time to get into that, but we 131 00:07:39,200 --> 00:07:41,920 Speaker 1: do have to. We do have to point out that 132 00:07:42,120 --> 00:07:46,080 Speaker 1: for a lot of people. Maybe you're in grade school, 133 00:07:46,120 --> 00:07:49,720 Speaker 1: you're growing up, you're learning about the ancient past, and 134 00:07:49,800 --> 00:07:56,360 Speaker 1: you may a lot of kids associate mammoths with dinosaurs 135 00:07:56,440 --> 00:08:00,000 Speaker 1: other long gone creatures, but that's not entirely. 136 00:08:00,720 --> 00:08:04,880 Speaker 4: Oh sure, Well, so mammoths and mastadons were both around, 137 00:08:05,000 --> 00:08:09,760 Speaker 4: probably starting like kneeling like six million years ago or so, so, 138 00:08:09,920 --> 00:08:13,960 Speaker 4: you know, after the big event, whatever the dinosaur event 139 00:08:14,120 --> 00:08:16,480 Speaker 4: was that occurred, they were around for a long time, 140 00:08:16,560 --> 00:08:21,200 Speaker 4: like they still existed when humans started running around, you know, 141 00:08:21,240 --> 00:08:24,120 Speaker 4: like the mammoths were still here while the ancient Egyptians 142 00:08:24,120 --> 00:08:26,000 Speaker 4: were building their pyramids. 143 00:08:26,840 --> 00:08:29,520 Speaker 3: Right, and they were also helping Fred Flintstone run. 144 00:08:29,360 --> 00:08:34,160 Speaker 6: The you know, of course whatever the of course, yeah, yeah, 145 00:08:34,160 --> 00:08:38,199 Speaker 6: but yeah, due to like climate and human pressures, masterdons 146 00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:41,120 Speaker 6: died off some like eleven thousand years ago, mammoths about 147 00:08:41,120 --> 00:08:41,760 Speaker 6: four thousand. 148 00:08:42,440 --> 00:08:46,160 Speaker 4: But we didn't know about any of this until like 149 00:08:46,240 --> 00:08:51,920 Speaker 4: the eighteen hundred 's CE and we didn't believe that 150 00:08:52,080 --> 00:08:56,160 Speaker 4: extinction was possible until like right around that time. And 151 00:08:56,240 --> 00:08:58,960 Speaker 4: we didn't believe it was possible until specifically we started 152 00:08:59,000 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 4: looking at mammoth and master masterodon. 153 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,240 Speaker 2: Fossils extinction as a concept as a concept which I 154 00:09:06,760 --> 00:09:09,920 Speaker 2: find somehow just endearing. 155 00:09:10,040 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: It makes my grin charge. I know a couple sizes 156 00:09:13,040 --> 00:09:17,520 Speaker 1: that until to know that, until the eighteen hundreds, everybody, 157 00:09:17,600 --> 00:09:21,640 Speaker 1: despite all their differences in human society, just said no, 158 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:24,439 Speaker 1: well thaks can't die, go away. 159 00:09:25,000 --> 00:09:27,200 Speaker 3: And then they go away. And they're like, we have 160 00:09:27,280 --> 00:09:30,439 Speaker 3: to figure out who did this? You Jon, who was 161 00:09:30,480 --> 00:09:31,720 Speaker 3: responsible for this? 162 00:09:32,559 --> 00:09:35,040 Speaker 4: It was? It was that death was coming from inside 163 00:09:35,040 --> 00:09:36,880 Speaker 4: the house, right right? 164 00:09:37,160 --> 00:09:41,120 Speaker 1: And this is this leads us to something interesting too, 165 00:09:41,160 --> 00:09:44,360 Speaker 1: because there's a ton of context here, as as you 166 00:09:44,400 --> 00:09:47,200 Speaker 1: would point it out to us in your research, people 167 00:09:47,559 --> 00:09:53,199 Speaker 1: had been finding mysterious bones or tusk in particular in 168 00:09:53,240 --> 00:09:58,640 Speaker 1: this case, all the livelong day, and nobody knew what 169 00:09:58,760 --> 00:10:01,880 Speaker 1: to make of them. You know what it reminded me of, guys, 170 00:10:02,360 --> 00:10:07,240 Speaker 1: was the infamous case of the Cyclops. Shout out to 171 00:10:07,280 --> 00:10:11,240 Speaker 1: Nolan's the Odyssey, right, yeah, yeah, yeah, this is where. 172 00:10:12,000 --> 00:10:17,120 Speaker 1: This is where people in Mediterranean areas like Sicily and 173 00:10:17,200 --> 00:10:23,679 Speaker 1: Crete they would find fossilized skulls of prehistoric dwarf elephants, 174 00:10:23,720 --> 00:10:26,800 Speaker 1: So nowhere near the size of your mammoth, your masted on, 175 00:10:27,720 --> 00:10:30,520 Speaker 1: but big enough that if you didn't know what you 176 00:10:30,559 --> 00:10:34,120 Speaker 1: were looking at, you would think this was some huge 177 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,520 Speaker 1: guy's skull and he had weird teeth and one eye. 178 00:10:39,480 --> 00:10:44,840 Speaker 4: Yeah. Yeah, people jumped to giant humanoids to me weirdly 179 00:10:44,920 --> 00:10:49,240 Speaker 4: often because for some reason, I'm way more comfortable with 180 00:10:49,280 --> 00:10:52,320 Speaker 4: the concept of an elephant than I am with a 181 00:10:52,600 --> 00:10:55,439 Speaker 4: dude who just happened to be I don't know, seventy 182 00:10:55,480 --> 00:11:00,400 Speaker 4: feet tall like that seems I'm not sure I want 183 00:11:00,400 --> 00:11:00,840 Speaker 4: that one. 184 00:11:01,200 --> 00:11:04,160 Speaker 2: It turns out people have pretty great imaginations and have 185 00:11:04,520 --> 00:11:07,480 Speaker 2: for a very long time. We talked about this briefly 186 00:11:07,520 --> 00:11:09,640 Speaker 2: on stuff that I want you to know strange news 187 00:11:09,640 --> 00:11:11,960 Speaker 2: the other day. But a study just came out or 188 00:11:12,000 --> 00:11:17,560 Speaker 2: some results of some excavations in deep sea areas that 189 00:11:17,600 --> 00:11:24,120 Speaker 2: have uncovered megafauna underwater deep sea creature bones in these 190 00:11:24,200 --> 00:11:26,959 Speaker 2: like submerged graveyards in South Australia. 191 00:11:27,000 --> 00:11:28,880 Speaker 3: So though, as above, so below. 192 00:11:30,000 --> 00:11:34,680 Speaker 1: And we also have to remember obviously that people back 193 00:11:34,720 --> 00:11:38,280 Speaker 1: in the day of your they were no more intelligent 194 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,679 Speaker 1: nor any less intelligent than people are today, for better 195 00:11:42,760 --> 00:11:45,640 Speaker 1: or worse. So a lot of times when folks were 196 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:51,600 Speaker 1: finding these bones, these relics, these fossils, they were attempting 197 00:11:51,640 --> 00:11:55,880 Speaker 1: to explain their discovery through whatever their cultural framework. Was 198 00:11:56,160 --> 00:12:00,280 Speaker 1: at the time. So we're we're in Sicily, we've a 199 00:12:00,400 --> 00:12:04,040 Speaker 1: dwarf elephant's skull, and we go, hey, I remember this 200 00:12:04,559 --> 00:12:08,680 Speaker 1: other's story. It's that's that's it, right, Like we're done 201 00:12:08,679 --> 00:12:09,120 Speaker 1: for the day. 202 00:12:09,360 --> 00:12:12,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, gotta be that one. It's the Cyclops. We've already 203 00:12:12,480 --> 00:12:14,560 Speaker 4: read about it. So we're just putting the pieces of 204 00:12:14,559 --> 00:12:23,080 Speaker 4: the puzzle right together. And that's kind of what was 205 00:12:23,120 --> 00:12:26,360 Speaker 4: going on. So like, like Europeans kept finding or being 206 00:12:26,400 --> 00:12:30,040 Speaker 4: presented with these big old bones and tusks from places 207 00:12:30,080 --> 00:12:34,200 Speaker 4: like Siberia and Italy, the British Isles and North America. 208 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:36,720 Speaker 4: So like in the in the Hudson River Valley out 209 00:12:36,720 --> 00:12:41,679 Speaker 4: near Albany seventeen oh five, this Dutch tenant farmer is 210 00:12:41,760 --> 00:12:45,240 Speaker 4: hanging out and a tooth the size of a guy's 211 00:12:45,280 --> 00:12:48,240 Speaker 4: fist rolls down the hill and falls at his feet 212 00:12:50,280 --> 00:12:54,600 Speaker 4: and terrifying the same little little weird I'd be startled. 213 00:12:55,200 --> 00:12:59,000 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, nobody starts off their day thinking this is 214 00:12:59,040 --> 00:13:00,640 Speaker 1: the random giant tooth day. 215 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 4: No, No, maybe. 216 00:13:02,600 --> 00:13:05,760 Speaker 1: Wife one weird dentist, sure, sure. 217 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:07,840 Speaker 4: But so he does what any of us would do, 218 00:13:07,880 --> 00:13:10,080 Speaker 4: and he trades it to a local politician for some 219 00:13:10,200 --> 00:13:15,040 Speaker 4: rum and uh, obviously, and this and some other bones 220 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:19,160 Speaker 4: from the area wind up really capturing the public's imagination 221 00:13:20,559 --> 00:13:23,120 Speaker 4: insofar as they were really sure that these were the 222 00:13:23,120 --> 00:13:29,080 Speaker 4: remains of biblical giants. Again, like humanoid giants, which everyone 223 00:13:29,200 --> 00:13:32,760 Speaker 4: knew totally existed before the Great Flood. But here's proof, 224 00:13:33,240 --> 00:13:36,880 Speaker 4: because we've read about it. Because we've read about it. Yeah, 225 00:13:37,200 --> 00:13:40,440 Speaker 4: this one Massachusetts minister by the name of Edward Taylor 226 00:13:40,600 --> 00:13:46,400 Speaker 4: wrote a one hundred and ninety verse poem about this 227 00:13:46,559 --> 00:13:51,520 Speaker 4: seventy foot tall giant with ribs like rafters and limbs 228 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:59,480 Speaker 4: like the limbs of a tree. Cotton Mather. Oh man, 229 00:14:00,240 --> 00:14:03,640 Speaker 4: the guy who like previously helped murder a bunch of 230 00:14:03,679 --> 00:14:05,560 Speaker 4: people at the Salem witch Trials. 231 00:14:05,800 --> 00:14:07,040 Speaker 3: Oh yeah, that Cotton Mather. 232 00:14:07,240 --> 00:14:11,599 Speaker 4: Yeah, who would later help save Boston from a smallpox 233 00:14:11,679 --> 00:14:14,080 Speaker 4: outbreak with an early vaccination campaign. 234 00:14:14,240 --> 00:14:16,040 Speaker 2: Well that's cool. He's been of a mixed bag, but 235 00:14:16,080 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 2: I'm good with that one. 236 00:14:17,080 --> 00:14:21,320 Speaker 4: So my history is yeah, yeah, Cotton Mother. He went 237 00:14:21,400 --> 00:14:24,080 Speaker 4: on this whole bent about how the New world is 238 00:14:24,120 --> 00:14:26,640 Speaker 4: super cool because it was once home to giants that 239 00:14:26,680 --> 00:14:28,280 Speaker 4: would make Goliath look puny. 240 00:14:28,720 --> 00:14:31,920 Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm Cotton Mother and I'm saying kill the witches, 241 00:14:32,000 --> 00:14:36,480 Speaker 1: birds them, drown them, nobody gets smallpox. We're the home 242 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: of the. 243 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:39,560 Speaker 3: Giants, Biblical giants. 244 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 2: Well, I mean, you know, it's not like completely unique 245 00:14:42,840 --> 00:14:46,680 Speaker 2: for religious folks to interpret the historical record. 246 00:14:46,600 --> 00:14:49,440 Speaker 3: In ways that validate their. 247 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:52,200 Speaker 4: Views, right of course, of course. I mean and again, 248 00:14:52,200 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 4: you know. 249 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,920 Speaker 3: What revolution problematic for him just. 250 00:14:54,840 --> 00:14:58,840 Speaker 4: Saying oh yeah, that wouldn't happen for another century and 251 00:14:58,880 --> 00:15:01,360 Speaker 4: a half, so we some catching up to do, but. 252 00:15:01,840 --> 00:15:04,240 Speaker 1: Kind of going through that today we're recording in twenty 253 00:15:04,280 --> 00:15:10,800 Speaker 1: twenty six. Woo woo. This is uh, this is something. 254 00:15:10,920 --> 00:15:14,520 Speaker 1: First off, I just want to be clear, Lauren, I'm 255 00:15:14,560 --> 00:15:17,600 Speaker 1: pretty sure Cotton Mather didn't say all three of those 256 00:15:17,640 --> 00:15:21,280 Speaker 1: points in the same sermon, but it would. 257 00:15:21,280 --> 00:15:23,520 Speaker 3: It would have been amazing it has been now. 258 00:15:24,240 --> 00:15:29,360 Speaker 1: That would have been Alex Shones level amazing. And like 259 00:15:29,400 --> 00:15:32,080 Speaker 1: we were saying, people discover these things, they put them 260 00:15:32,120 --> 00:15:36,320 Speaker 1: in their existent cultural framework. So it does make sense, 261 00:15:37,560 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 1: did we when do we as a civilization start saying 262 00:15:43,920 --> 00:15:47,520 Speaker 1: maybe these aren't the remains of giant dead people? 263 00:15:49,440 --> 00:15:52,960 Speaker 4: Relatively quickly actually, which is which gives me a little 264 00:15:53,000 --> 00:15:55,160 Speaker 4: bit of hope for the species. I suppose, like the 265 00:15:55,240 --> 00:15:59,880 Speaker 4: by the seventeen twenties, some European naturalists started putting together 266 00:16:00,360 --> 00:16:02,960 Speaker 4: that fossils like these were probably from some kind of 267 00:16:03,000 --> 00:16:08,720 Speaker 4: elephant like animal. But you know, they they understood that 268 00:16:08,760 --> 00:16:12,040 Speaker 4: these animals couldn't possibly be living in the place where 269 00:16:12,040 --> 00:16:14,400 Speaker 4: the bones were dug up, because like elephants are from 270 00:16:14,440 --> 00:16:17,520 Speaker 4: hot climates right like India, Africa. There's no way that 271 00:16:17,520 --> 00:16:22,160 Speaker 4: elephants live in Siberia. So their best guess was that 272 00:16:22,200 --> 00:16:26,280 Speaker 4: these were bones of normal everyday elephants that washed north 273 00:16:26,480 --> 00:16:27,479 Speaker 4: during the Great. 274 00:16:27,200 --> 00:16:29,720 Speaker 1: Flood, because the Great Flood is still. 275 00:16:30,200 --> 00:16:33,280 Speaker 4: It definitely happened, That definitely is a thing that historically occurred. 276 00:16:34,080 --> 00:16:35,560 Speaker 3: There's a being sarcastic. 277 00:16:35,640 --> 00:16:40,280 Speaker 4: I'm not well, I'm being sarcastic. They were being quite serious, That's. 278 00:16:40,120 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 3: What I'm saying. 279 00:16:40,760 --> 00:16:45,440 Speaker 2: Like, even like their best kind of most enlightened attempts 280 00:16:45,560 --> 00:16:48,360 Speaker 2: to set the record straight, they still got hung up 281 00:16:48,400 --> 00:16:50,000 Speaker 2: on some fairy tale type. 282 00:16:50,200 --> 00:16:51,480 Speaker 3: Look, I'm sorry, that's me. 283 00:16:52,760 --> 00:16:54,680 Speaker 2: The Bible is great, so much too much of it 284 00:16:54,720 --> 00:16:57,080 Speaker 2: is based on things that really happen, But there are 285 00:16:57,080 --> 00:16:59,440 Speaker 2: a lot of it that you know clearly are kind 286 00:16:59,480 --> 00:17:02,240 Speaker 2: of more pale than you know, historical reck. 287 00:17:02,360 --> 00:17:04,679 Speaker 1: It's the great game of telephone, and we know that 288 00:17:04,720 --> 00:17:10,680 Speaker 1: big floods did occur, the idea is kind of wrapping 289 00:17:10,720 --> 00:17:13,639 Speaker 1: them all up and calling it one big, great flood. 290 00:17:13,760 --> 00:17:16,960 Speaker 1: It's it's really interesting. It's kind of inspiring to that 291 00:17:17,119 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: humanity seems for so long to be in this cosmic 292 00:17:21,240 --> 00:17:26,480 Speaker 1: escape room, right and slowly, slowly figuring out clues about 293 00:17:26,480 --> 00:17:29,840 Speaker 1: the nature of biology and reality, but still kind of 294 00:17:30,600 --> 00:17:33,560 Speaker 1: just like a rock climber, kind of keeping hold of 295 00:17:33,600 --> 00:17:36,439 Speaker 1: the one the thing that feels secure until it is 296 00:17:36,480 --> 00:17:37,159 Speaker 1: proven false. 297 00:17:37,440 --> 00:17:39,240 Speaker 2: Well, and also, Ben, I would just double back on 298 00:17:39,240 --> 00:17:42,000 Speaker 2: what you said about people were not more or less intelligent. 299 00:17:42,040 --> 00:17:44,760 Speaker 2: It's just they didn't have access to all the information 300 00:17:45,240 --> 00:17:47,960 Speaker 2: yet it took you know, we literally are standing on 301 00:17:48,000 --> 00:17:51,840 Speaker 2: the shoulders of giants and a long, long, long amount 302 00:17:51,840 --> 00:17:54,560 Speaker 2: of time spent putting these pieces together. So I hope 303 00:17:54,600 --> 00:17:57,920 Speaker 2: it doesn't sound like we're insulting to the intelligence of 304 00:17:57,960 --> 00:18:01,800 Speaker 2: these folks. A lot of these things, know, followed practical 305 00:18:02,240 --> 00:18:04,720 Speaker 2: wisdom of the time, right, and then you know, these 306 00:18:04,800 --> 00:18:07,960 Speaker 2: folks these naturalists were talking about definitely pushed the narrative further, 307 00:18:08,240 --> 00:18:10,800 Speaker 2: even if getting hung up on some of the details. 308 00:18:11,000 --> 00:18:14,280 Speaker 4: Yeah, Yeah, it was like the best scientific minds of 309 00:18:14,280 --> 00:18:16,720 Speaker 4: the time. This was their opinion about the whole thing. 310 00:18:16,880 --> 00:18:19,879 Speaker 4: In seventeen twenty eight, the then president of the Royal 311 00:18:19,920 --> 00:18:25,320 Speaker 4: College of Physicians, one Sir Hans Sloane, wrote this this 312 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:30,320 Speaker 4: terrific piece about how those goofy native Siberians thought that 313 00:18:30,400 --> 00:18:34,520 Speaker 4: because these bones were found in the ground, they had 314 00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,280 Speaker 4: to belong to a species of elephants that live deep 315 00:18:37,280 --> 00:18:38,200 Speaker 4: in the earth. 316 00:18:38,720 --> 00:18:41,119 Speaker 1: Like the like the Morlocks, yeah right. 317 00:18:42,200 --> 00:18:45,719 Speaker 4: And right under fans goods, and that this is like 318 00:18:45,760 --> 00:18:48,000 Speaker 4: the cause of earthquakes and stuff like that, and. 319 00:18:48,680 --> 00:18:50,560 Speaker 3: They're just stomping around down there, yeah. 320 00:18:50,520 --> 00:18:56,400 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah. And Sloane furthermore wrote that, like, you know, we, yes, 321 00:18:56,520 --> 00:19:01,960 Speaker 4: we educated Europeans, we understand that obviously the bones washed 322 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:03,720 Speaker 4: there during the Great Flood. 323 00:19:03,800 --> 00:19:11,399 Speaker 1: And everybody clapped, yes, okay, So this is this is 324 00:19:11,480 --> 00:19:16,160 Speaker 1: the prevailing sentiment from the most learned minds, the ted 325 00:19:16,240 --> 00:19:22,040 Speaker 1: talkers of their day. And we also have to I 326 00:19:22,800 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 1: think it's I think it's worth pointing out that some 327 00:19:27,160 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: of these folks, depending on where they lived at the time, 328 00:19:30,480 --> 00:19:34,280 Speaker 1: may have gone back to religious reasoning because it could 329 00:19:34,320 --> 00:19:37,879 Speaker 1: be considered heretical if they said it was bs. 330 00:19:38,640 --> 00:19:44,879 Speaker 4: Oh sure, you know, like choice between inquisition and sure, 331 00:19:44,920 --> 00:19:50,520 Speaker 4: those are great flood related elephant bones. Great into that? 332 00:19:49,440 --> 00:19:53,160 Speaker 4: I am ill? 333 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: Are we good? 334 00:19:54,720 --> 00:19:56,040 Speaker 3: What's the terrific? 335 00:19:56,760 --> 00:19:59,560 Speaker 4: So like opinion was developing as more and more of 336 00:19:59,600 --> 00:20:04,120 Speaker 4: these bones we're coming to light and back in North America, 337 00:20:04,320 --> 00:20:08,800 Speaker 4: colonists ran. Colonists ran across another fossil deposit. In seventeen 338 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:12,040 Speaker 4: thirty nine, this French military expedition was on its way 339 00:20:12,119 --> 00:20:15,560 Speaker 4: south stopped through the Ohio River valley around what's now 340 00:20:15,640 --> 00:20:20,359 Speaker 4: northern Kentucky, and the Native Abnaki guides who were hunting 341 00:20:20,400 --> 00:20:23,679 Speaker 4: for them found some like fossilized tusks and a few teeth, 342 00:20:24,119 --> 00:20:27,400 Speaker 4: a femur as big as a person, and were like, hey, 343 00:20:27,600 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 4: look at these cool things we found. The French sent 344 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:32,919 Speaker 4: the bones to Paris to King Louis the fifteenth, who 345 00:20:32,960 --> 00:20:36,880 Speaker 4: had a collection of curiosities, and naturalists there identified these 346 00:20:36,920 --> 00:20:42,520 Speaker 4: as right more pre flood elephants. This Ohio River site 347 00:20:42,560 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 4: also had salt deposits or salt licks, so it became 348 00:20:45,760 --> 00:20:49,320 Speaker 4: known as Big Bone Lick, and this would be a 349 00:20:49,400 --> 00:20:54,439 Speaker 4: major site for the budding field of what would be paleontology. 350 00:20:54,440 --> 00:20:59,200 Speaker 1: Fascin it's fascinating too, you know, Louis is a story 351 00:20:59,480 --> 00:21:05,000 Speaker 1: all his own, talk about we're an audio podcast, so everybody, 352 00:21:05,320 --> 00:21:08,560 Speaker 1: I want you to know the expression that Lauren had 353 00:21:08,560 --> 00:21:11,919 Speaker 1: in response to that, which was like, yeah, are we 354 00:21:11,960 --> 00:21:15,400 Speaker 1: going there? Maybe maybe we'll have to have you back 355 00:21:15,440 --> 00:21:18,520 Speaker 1: for another episode on Louis Shenanigans. 356 00:21:18,560 --> 00:21:20,640 Speaker 2: What do you think his collection would have put Nicholas 357 00:21:20,680 --> 00:21:21,800 Speaker 2: Cage to share. 358 00:21:22,680 --> 00:21:25,639 Speaker 4: And Nick still getting in there, the Nicholas Cage of 359 00:21:25,640 --> 00:21:28,160 Speaker 4: his day. Yeah, yeah, I think that's apt. 360 00:21:28,920 --> 00:21:32,639 Speaker 1: Kind of love that actually. So could you tell us 361 00:21:32,640 --> 00:21:36,160 Speaker 1: a little bit about the mysterious incognitum? 362 00:21:36,520 --> 00:21:41,200 Speaker 4: Oh yeah, okay. So so at Big Bone Lick, through 363 00:21:41,280 --> 00:21:45,440 Speaker 4: the seventeen fifties and sixties, traders and land surveyors collected 364 00:21:45,720 --> 00:21:48,160 Speaker 4: a lot more fossils. In addition to what we now 365 00:21:48,200 --> 00:21:50,600 Speaker 4: know our mask John remains, they found the remains of 366 00:21:51,160 --> 00:21:55,200 Speaker 4: like elk and giant ground sloths, which had like, you know, 367 00:21:55,280 --> 00:22:00,480 Speaker 4: big old claws, and so naturalists little hooky boys, right, yeah, yeahah, yeah, 368 00:22:00,480 --> 00:22:03,359 Speaker 4: exactly like that. That's the actual sound. 369 00:22:03,440 --> 00:22:05,040 Speaker 3: That's the only way to do it. 370 00:22:05,400 --> 00:22:06,640 Speaker 1: Typically, Yeah, we checked. 371 00:22:09,320 --> 00:22:12,240 Speaker 4: So naturalists started like looked at all of these things 372 00:22:12,359 --> 00:22:16,199 Speaker 4: and started putting together this concept of a single animal 373 00:22:16,800 --> 00:22:20,600 Speaker 4: with these tusks that they thought probably curved downward like 374 00:22:20,720 --> 00:22:23,000 Speaker 4: saber teeth, and these big claws. 375 00:22:23,200 --> 00:22:26,080 Speaker 2: They're doing a bit of a chimera situation here. 376 00:22:27,040 --> 00:22:30,640 Speaker 4: And these giant knobby molars that could weigh like over 377 00:22:30,680 --> 00:22:34,480 Speaker 4: six pounds each, like you know, big things. When Benjamin 378 00:22:34,560 --> 00:22:38,280 Speaker 4: Franklin received a box of master Don fossils, he wrote, 379 00:22:38,840 --> 00:22:42,120 Speaker 4: the tusks agree with those of the African and Asiatic elephant, 380 00:22:42,200 --> 00:22:46,320 Speaker 4: but the grinders differ, being full knobs like the grinders 381 00:22:46,400 --> 00:22:47,679 Speaker 4: of a carnivorous animal. 382 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:51,119 Speaker 2: Can you imagine the weird stuff Ben Franklin got, I 383 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,400 Speaker 2: think on the regular constantly. 384 00:22:54,760 --> 00:22:57,040 Speaker 3: I mean, like unhinged stuff. 385 00:22:57,960 --> 00:23:02,320 Speaker 2: Box of mastodontica for him, one can only imagine the grinders. 386 00:23:02,359 --> 00:23:03,919 Speaker 3: He's referring to the mold, right. 387 00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:05,360 Speaker 2: Yeah. 388 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,439 Speaker 1: And he's the guy where this would not be super 389 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:10,879 Speaker 1: Dupe's unusual for me. 390 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:15,320 Speaker 3: But he got some off yet he got some even 391 00:23:15,359 --> 00:23:16,440 Speaker 3: more on the. 392 00:23:16,320 --> 00:23:20,320 Speaker 1: Post office guys like then, man, you know I dropped 393 00:23:20,320 --> 00:23:24,200 Speaker 1: the mail off at eleven am. Can you not take 394 00:23:24,240 --> 00:23:28,359 Speaker 1: your naked air baths just like during that specific time? 395 00:23:28,920 --> 00:23:31,520 Speaker 1: And Ben says it's science. I hear you got some 396 00:23:31,640 --> 00:23:32,240 Speaker 1: teeth for me. 397 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:34,520 Speaker 3: I need my evening constitutional. 398 00:23:35,119 --> 00:23:38,119 Speaker 1: Oh also we should say Ben Franklin not a serial killer. 399 00:23:38,280 --> 00:23:41,080 Speaker 2: We we verified he buried bodies in his basement, but 400 00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:42,400 Speaker 2: it was for science, not. 401 00:23:42,440 --> 00:23:47,719 Speaker 4: In a serial killer way. The resurrection Matt not for funsies. 402 00:23:48,600 --> 00:23:51,360 Speaker 3: Well, you know, a little bit for funsie. 403 00:23:51,600 --> 00:23:54,760 Speaker 1: So this this is the interesting It was a little 404 00:23:54,760 --> 00:24:06,200 Speaker 1: bit for funsies. So this is interesting because we what 405 00:24:06,240 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: we see in this quotation Lauren, is that his take, 406 00:24:12,359 --> 00:24:18,960 Speaker 1: Ben Franklin's take on the tusk and the grinders make 407 00:24:19,080 --> 00:24:22,439 Speaker 1: this argument against what they knew about elephants of the 408 00:24:22,480 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: modern day. 409 00:24:23,600 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 4: Right, they assumed that they were dealing with some kind 410 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:34,040 Speaker 4: of flesh eating monster, sick and right, and they called 411 00:24:34,080 --> 00:24:38,680 Speaker 4: it incognitum, which is essentially Latin for lack. I don't 412 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:39,320 Speaker 4: know what it is. 413 00:24:39,760 --> 00:24:44,560 Speaker 2: I love that it's like unobtaining, it's mcguffinish. 414 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:48,679 Speaker 1: And it's also funny. How would you look at species 415 00:24:48,760 --> 00:24:52,520 Speaker 1: names in Latin even today if you trace the etymology, 416 00:24:52,960 --> 00:24:56,520 Speaker 1: So many of them are so silly. Oh yeah, they're 417 00:24:56,640 --> 00:25:01,560 Speaker 1: like butt face red. Oh well, now I'm getting into 418 00:25:01,560 --> 00:25:06,160 Speaker 1: bird names. But we have to remember that even though 419 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:10,920 Speaker 1: it sounds super fancy to say something like incognitum, here 420 00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:13,800 Speaker 1: in the modern day, or even in the seventeen hundreds. 421 00:25:15,280 --> 00:25:18,439 Speaker 1: It's exactly what you're describing. It is a shrug with 422 00:25:18,520 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: the hands up and going I don't know, maybe. 423 00:25:21,320 --> 00:25:22,679 Speaker 4: Yeah, it could be something. 424 00:25:22,840 --> 00:25:25,399 Speaker 3: It's probably big though, big something. 425 00:25:26,840 --> 00:25:30,639 Speaker 4: Speaking about a big something we have to talk about 426 00:25:30,680 --> 00:25:31,719 Speaker 4: Thomas Jefferson. 427 00:25:32,160 --> 00:25:35,680 Speaker 1: So that's one of my favorite segues so far. Thomas, 428 00:25:35,720 --> 00:25:40,320 Speaker 1: big guy again, Thomas always popping up big something something. 429 00:25:40,480 --> 00:25:43,560 Speaker 1: Jefferson novie called himself that. 430 00:25:43,880 --> 00:25:47,320 Speaker 4: Oh I think he did. All right, So this dude 431 00:25:47,359 --> 00:25:52,520 Speaker 4: became obsessed with these big bone lick fossils, like partially 432 00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,679 Speaker 4: because he was just a nerd like Ben Franklin. This 433 00:25:55,760 --> 00:25:57,080 Speaker 4: is just sort of what he was up to in 434 00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:01,639 Speaker 4: his free time, but partially because he realized that he 435 00:26:01,680 --> 00:26:07,240 Speaker 4: could use the incognitum to refute this widely circulated argument 436 00:26:07,320 --> 00:26:11,959 Speaker 4: that was going around about the inherent inferiority of the Americas, 437 00:26:12,000 --> 00:26:13,480 Speaker 4: including the people who lived there. 438 00:26:14,560 --> 00:26:18,880 Speaker 1: Okay, so this is now a he sees in these 439 00:26:18,880 --> 00:26:21,440 Speaker 1: fossils a potential political tool. 440 00:26:22,280 --> 00:26:27,800 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, political and or this was a passion project, 441 00:26:27,840 --> 00:26:31,640 Speaker 4: I strongly believe. But but all right, So in seventeen 442 00:26:31,720 --> 00:26:35,359 Speaker 4: sixty six, this famous French naturalist and my French is terrible, 443 00:26:35,440 --> 00:26:39,639 Speaker 4: so it's buffon. But Jeorges Louis la Cleric de Beauffon 444 00:26:40,000 --> 00:26:46,399 Speaker 4: he published this theory of American degeneracy, and basically he 445 00:26:46,560 --> 00:26:50,040 Speaker 4: was like wondering, like why the creatures of the Americas 446 00:26:50,200 --> 00:26:53,359 Speaker 4: tended to be like cute little buddies compared to the 447 00:26:53,480 --> 00:26:57,280 Speaker 4: majestic beasts of the old world of Africa and Asia 448 00:26:57,359 --> 00:27:00,880 Speaker 4: and Europe, you know, like next to an Indian tiger, 449 00:27:01,400 --> 00:27:03,920 Speaker 4: to be fair, like the Mexican jaguar is a cute 450 00:27:03,960 --> 00:27:09,760 Speaker 4: little guy. Yeah, But so Befoone's theory was that the 451 00:27:09,800 --> 00:27:16,480 Speaker 4: America's climate was to blame. And he was, yeah, like 452 00:27:16,480 --> 00:27:20,160 Speaker 4: like just just just lumping all what like two point 453 00:27:20,320 --> 00:27:23,640 Speaker 4: seven continents of the Americas together into a single climate, 454 00:27:23,680 --> 00:27:26,159 Speaker 4: which is interesting in its own right, but well, the. 455 00:27:26,240 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 2: Argument being that more tropical climates would yield the bigger, 456 00:27:30,200 --> 00:27:34,400 Speaker 2: crazier creatures, that more or more extreme, more. 457 00:27:34,440 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 4: A sture climates would would give you grander creatures and 458 00:27:39,240 --> 00:27:43,560 Speaker 4: swamp ass places like the Americas were going to lead 459 00:27:43,600 --> 00:27:44,320 Speaker 4: to degenerates. 460 00:27:44,560 --> 00:27:49,439 Speaker 1: Ah yeah, because despite the fact that we we know 461 00:27:49,760 --> 00:27:55,400 Speaker 1: now that the American continents have a vast and varied 462 00:27:55,640 --> 00:28:00,919 Speaker 1: collection of biomes and ecosystems. He thought he was basing 463 00:28:00,960 --> 00:28:02,840 Speaker 1: it on what he knew at the time, just like 464 00:28:02,880 --> 00:28:06,840 Speaker 1: people in the Mediterranean finding warf elephant skulls. And he said, 465 00:28:06,920 --> 00:28:10,720 Speaker 1: this whole thing is a swamp and that's the reason. Uh, 466 00:28:10,840 --> 00:28:16,240 Speaker 1: these upstart colonists got stuck with the first stage pokemon. 467 00:28:16,640 --> 00:28:22,080 Speaker 2: He didn't know about the bigfoots yet. 468 00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 4: More more humanoid giants. Yeah, so yeah, see we're not 469 00:28:25,520 --> 00:28:29,200 Speaker 4: immune today. We love these stories. But but okay, yeah, 470 00:28:29,240 --> 00:28:29,520 Speaker 4: you know. 471 00:28:29,480 --> 00:28:31,840 Speaker 3: Stories my bad. 472 00:28:32,200 --> 00:28:33,240 Speaker 1: Could they poop though? 473 00:28:33,520 --> 00:28:37,480 Speaker 3: Like if we okay in their show, take it with them. 474 00:28:38,040 --> 00:28:40,280 Speaker 1: That's what they do because they respect nature. 475 00:28:41,280 --> 00:28:43,280 Speaker 3: Leave no leave, no trades. 476 00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:47,760 Speaker 1: All right, Well, we solved that one, I think pretty handily. 477 00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:50,760 Speaker 1: So our guy, who is, by the way, to be fair, 478 00:28:50,880 --> 00:28:57,120 Speaker 1: a incredible French naturalist and off air, I said, French nationalists. 479 00:28:56,400 --> 00:28:58,200 Speaker 4: So we think that different issue. 480 00:28:58,280 --> 00:29:02,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, different issues. So this guy, this guy is legitimate. 481 00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:07,480 Speaker 1: He's not some fringe, mad cap lunatic and what he 482 00:29:07,760 --> 00:29:12,760 Speaker 1: argues therefore becomes pretty convincing, I guess to readers in France. 483 00:29:12,920 --> 00:29:18,640 Speaker 4: In everywhere essentially in Europe and the rest of the 484 00:29:18,720 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 4: European influenced world. So okay, so His belief system here 485 00:29:22,760 --> 00:29:26,000 Speaker 4: was that all life on Earth spontaneously generated and then 486 00:29:26,040 --> 00:29:31,680 Speaker 4: migrated around, adapting to different environments as it went, and 487 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:35,520 Speaker 4: that America was a swamp that only recently rose up 488 00:29:35,520 --> 00:29:37,520 Speaker 4: out of the sea. You know, that explains why the 489 00:29:37,520 --> 00:29:41,240 Speaker 4: Appalachians are so small compared to It. 490 00:29:40,240 --> 00:29:42,840 Speaker 2: Sank back into the swamp. It sank back into the swamp. 491 00:29:43,000 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 2: They built it back up, it sank back into the 492 00:29:45,200 --> 00:29:47,160 Speaker 2: swamp again, and then finally. 493 00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:49,080 Speaker 4: It stayed at a little bit of a bounce action there. 494 00:29:49,160 --> 00:29:52,880 Speaker 1: Sure, it's so it's so weird too, because we know 495 00:29:53,160 --> 00:29:57,480 Speaker 1: now that the Appalachians appear small because they're so gosh darn. 496 00:29:57,360 --> 00:30:01,640 Speaker 4: Old right, they've worn down. But he had the opposite concept, 497 00:30:02,800 --> 00:30:06,560 Speaker 4: and so he extrapolated that this environment had caused the 498 00:30:06,560 --> 00:30:11,040 Speaker 4: plants and animals that had come here to literally degenerate, 499 00:30:11,320 --> 00:30:16,400 Speaker 4: to become smaller and weaker and less reproductively successful. And 500 00:30:16,440 --> 00:30:19,719 Speaker 4: he claimed, really racistly, that the same thing had happened 501 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:22,360 Speaker 4: to the human beings who had come to the Americas. 502 00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:24,880 Speaker 4: He also claimed that the same thing would continue to 503 00:30:24,880 --> 00:30:30,400 Speaker 4: happen to the offspring of European immigrants, and that therefore 504 00:30:30,880 --> 00:30:34,080 Speaker 4: the Americas would never be home to a great civilization. 505 00:30:34,680 --> 00:30:38,320 Speaker 1: Wow, his calves must be in awesome shape from those 506 00:30:38,400 --> 00:30:42,400 Speaker 1: leaps of logic. Man bit of a hater, Oh yeah, no, 507 00:30:42,560 --> 00:30:45,720 Speaker 1: bit about it. This guy, this guy clearly had an 508 00:30:46,160 --> 00:30:49,640 Speaker 1: axe to grind. Uh huh right, and again a dominant 509 00:30:49,680 --> 00:30:56,320 Speaker 1: cultural framework he was working within. He is, as he said, 510 00:30:56,360 --> 00:30:59,640 Speaker 1: he's kind of the literati of his day, leading scientific 511 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,760 Speaker 1: mind and so our nerds across the pond who are 512 00:31:03,800 --> 00:31:09,040 Speaker 1: also super into esoteric things. They get winded this. 513 00:31:09,880 --> 00:31:11,600 Speaker 4: Yeah, Thomas Jefferson was pissed. 514 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:13,800 Speaker 1: Oh boy, Thomas Big Something. 515 00:31:14,200 --> 00:31:18,880 Speaker 4: Thomas Big Something Jefferson was big something about this that 516 00:31:20,280 --> 00:31:23,880 Speaker 4: I picture him just like sputtering, just going like my 517 00:31:24,280 --> 00:31:28,360 Speaker 4: sperm is great, thank you, right, Like I feel like 518 00:31:28,360 --> 00:31:32,000 Speaker 4: this was personal for him at a certain level, and 519 00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:36,080 Speaker 4: he wound up because he wound up spending a lot 520 00:31:36,120 --> 00:31:39,680 Speaker 4: of time and energy on refuting this in the seventeen 521 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:44,200 Speaker 4: seventies and eighties, which you may recall was a busy time, right. 522 00:31:45,200 --> 00:31:48,000 Speaker 1: I've guys have pictured it now where someone comes in 523 00:31:48,280 --> 00:31:53,880 Speaker 1: at another would be founding father is like, Tommy Big Something, 524 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:57,360 Speaker 1: we gotta go. The British are come in, Well, you 525 00:31:57,840 --> 00:31:59,920 Speaker 1: gotta give up this weird bone thing. 526 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:06,160 Speaker 4: Man, and he's like no, no, no, no. And he 527 00:32:06,240 --> 00:32:09,040 Speaker 4: actually got a bunch of his compatriots involved in this, 528 00:32:09,320 --> 00:32:11,880 Speaker 4: like so he was one of the things that he 529 00:32:11,960 --> 00:32:15,120 Speaker 4: was trying to do was collect and publish these really 530 00:32:15,160 --> 00:32:21,160 Speaker 4: precise measurements of various American animals compared with their European counterparts. 531 00:32:21,200 --> 00:32:24,760 Speaker 4: This was a passion project for him to help refute 532 00:32:25,400 --> 00:32:29,040 Speaker 4: the faon's argument. And so he got like like Ben 533 00:32:29,080 --> 00:32:31,960 Speaker 4: Franklin and James Madison, who for some reason I thought 534 00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:34,960 Speaker 4: was above all of this. Like, he got these guys 535 00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:41,040 Speaker 4: to go out and measure local wildlife. Madison sent in 536 00:32:41,080 --> 00:32:44,160 Speaker 4: a description of a Virginian weasel down to the length 537 00:32:44,360 --> 00:32:45,080 Speaker 4: of the taint. 538 00:32:45,680 --> 00:32:47,920 Speaker 3: He's not talking about a member of Congress there boo. 539 00:32:48,640 --> 00:32:50,760 Speaker 5: Also, if I could jump in, he real quick, Laurence said, 540 00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,960 Speaker 5: James Madison above all this. James Madison is considered to 541 00:32:54,000 --> 00:32:56,400 Speaker 5: be the shortest president in American history at five foot four, 542 00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:58,200 Speaker 5: so he was not above anything. 543 00:33:00,320 --> 00:33:01,440 Speaker 4: Maxic the facts. 544 00:33:01,880 --> 00:33:02,680 Speaker 1: There we go. 545 00:33:04,520 --> 00:33:10,640 Speaker 3: Seeing in the phone and he's fallen knowledge. It's just 546 00:33:10,760 --> 00:33:13,360 Speaker 3: for you right now, the. 547 00:33:15,760 --> 00:33:18,080 Speaker 2: Guys, you didn't you didn't get my Virginian weasel joke 548 00:33:18,120 --> 00:33:24,960 Speaker 2: about Come on, that's good It's only a good joke 549 00:33:25,000 --> 00:33:27,160 Speaker 2: if you have to remind people that it was a 550 00:33:27,240 --> 00:33:29,760 Speaker 2: joke and explain what she meant. He Uh. 551 00:33:30,800 --> 00:33:35,880 Speaker 1: He also sets up this just perfect scenario for sketch comedy. 552 00:33:35,920 --> 00:33:38,880 Speaker 1: This is so, this is so rife with sketch comedy 553 00:33:38,880 --> 00:33:42,760 Speaker 1: because we know Ben Franklin and James Battison were probably 554 00:33:42,800 --> 00:33:45,640 Speaker 1: talking as well, and they. 555 00:33:45,520 --> 00:33:47,200 Speaker 3: Also invented sketch comedy and. 556 00:33:47,320 --> 00:33:50,960 Speaker 1: Invented sketch comedy. Yes, and they were probably they were 557 00:33:51,040 --> 00:33:54,280 Speaker 1: probably chatting with each other. I'm just imagining like Big 558 00:33:54,360 --> 00:33:58,360 Speaker 1: Something leaves the room for a bathroom break and Ben 559 00:33:58,400 --> 00:34:00,800 Speaker 1: and James are looking at each other, and one of 560 00:34:00,840 --> 00:34:04,680 Speaker 1: them is like, do you think do you think he's 561 00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:07,320 Speaker 1: gonna ask us to look at Taints again? 562 00:34:09,600 --> 00:34:13,240 Speaker 2: This guy was a bit of an RFK type figure. 563 00:34:13,520 --> 00:34:16,560 Speaker 2: He was very interested in animal taking all the smoke. 564 00:34:16,360 --> 00:34:17,399 Speaker 3: For Big Something here. 565 00:34:17,640 --> 00:34:22,640 Speaker 1: Yeah, okay, we know that he's enlisted Thomas Tommy's enlisting 566 00:34:22,719 --> 00:34:26,399 Speaker 1: a bunch of people to do his uh, to help 567 00:34:26,480 --> 00:34:31,600 Speaker 1: him in this passion project, possibly because he took it personally. 568 00:34:32,280 --> 00:34:36,759 Speaker 1: Uh does he respond to uh? 569 00:34:36,840 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, well, okay, hey. 570 00:34:41,160 --> 00:34:44,360 Speaker 1: I think Knowles r FK Junior thing is gonna is 571 00:34:44,440 --> 00:34:45,879 Speaker 1: gonna pay off with this. 572 00:34:46,000 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, because we have to talk about a moose skirt. 573 00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,880 Speaker 1: Skirt, hold the hold the big moose, Hold the bone, 574 00:34:52,960 --> 00:34:56,640 Speaker 1: hold the bone. We are we are going to make 575 00:34:56,719 --> 00:35:01,960 Speaker 1: this a two chapter series, Lauren, through the magic of editing. 576 00:35:02,200 --> 00:35:05,440 Speaker 1: We're not exactly sure where we'll break in this story, 577 00:35:05,800 --> 00:35:08,600 Speaker 1: but this is already such a wild ride. 578 00:35:08,840 --> 00:35:11,320 Speaker 3: Dense, glad to do it like a mastodon bone. 579 00:35:11,400 --> 00:35:13,239 Speaker 4: Yeah, weird times. 580 00:35:13,800 --> 00:35:17,960 Speaker 1: So folks, please joined us later in the week this 581 00:35:18,160 --> 00:35:22,880 Speaker 1: Thursday for part two of Mastadons in America with Lauren Vogelbaum. 582 00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:24,440 Speaker 1: In the meantime, so you. 583 00:35:24,440 --> 00:35:25,879 Speaker 2: Got to say it again? That was was that you've 584 00:35:25,880 --> 00:35:28,839 Speaker 2: been Mastadons in America? That is that your title? Or 585 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 2: is that Lawrence? 586 00:35:29,920 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: I think it's just a weorrid title. 587 00:35:31,480 --> 00:35:32,120 Speaker 3: Well, it's good. 588 00:35:32,480 --> 00:35:34,239 Speaker 2: I just wanted to make sure that you enunciated it, 589 00:35:34,239 --> 00:35:36,279 Speaker 2: because I think it would have been blanked and you 590 00:35:36,320 --> 00:35:38,680 Speaker 2: would have missed him Masterdon's America. 591 00:35:38,760 --> 00:35:42,120 Speaker 1: So Lord, in the interim, as we're all waiting for Thursday, 592 00:35:42,160 --> 00:35:44,160 Speaker 1: where can people go to learn more about your work? 593 00:35:44,480 --> 00:35:47,520 Speaker 4: Oh gosh, Well, the show that I'm currently doing is 594 00:35:47,560 --> 00:35:50,359 Speaker 4: called brain Stuff. That's one word. It's just a short 595 00:35:50,400 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 4: form little Science and History show. You can find it 596 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,840 Speaker 4: wherever podcasts are found, or if you like social media, 597 00:35:58,040 --> 00:36:02,440 Speaker 4: if that's like your thing. Yeah, I'm on Blue Sky 598 00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:06,759 Speaker 4: and Instagram under the name Vogel Bomb v O g 599 00:36:06,880 --> 00:36:10,400 Speaker 4: E l b o MB. It's a it's a pun. 600 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:13,640 Speaker 3: You're not on X the Everything app? 601 00:36:13,920 --> 00:36:17,279 Speaker 1: No, yeah, that's coming back. 602 00:36:18,640 --> 00:36:19,960 Speaker 4: I really miss live journle. 603 00:36:20,680 --> 00:36:24,480 Speaker 1: Oh my gosh. Oh no, someone's gonna find our live journals. 604 00:36:26,719 --> 00:36:28,640 Speaker 1: I have one where I would I would start in 605 00:36:28,719 --> 00:36:31,600 Speaker 1: trees with Dear Universe, Comma. 606 00:36:32,719 --> 00:36:35,120 Speaker 2: Adorable, Were you writing them under your blanket with a 607 00:36:35,160 --> 00:36:36,280 Speaker 2: flashlight and stuff? 608 00:36:36,280 --> 00:36:38,719 Speaker 1: And it was a different time. It was a different time. 609 00:36:38,760 --> 00:36:41,560 Speaker 1: But we've had a great time this week. Big big 610 00:36:41,560 --> 00:36:44,880 Speaker 1: thanks to our super producer, mister Max Williams. Big thanks 611 00:36:44,880 --> 00:36:48,360 Speaker 1: to A. J. Bahamas Jacobs, doctor Rachel Big, Spinach Lance 612 00:36:48,400 --> 00:36:50,320 Speaker 1: and uh several other people. 613 00:36:50,920 --> 00:36:53,800 Speaker 2: M christophrasciotis name is Jeff got Here in Spira, Jonathan 614 00:36:53,840 --> 00:36:54,880 Speaker 2: Strickland the quiz or A. J. 615 00:36:55,000 --> 00:36:56,239 Speaker 3: Mohamed Jacobs the Buzzer. 616 00:36:56,320 --> 00:36:59,520 Speaker 1: And thanks to you for tuning in. We'll see you Thursday, and. 617 00:36:59,520 --> 00:37:02,200 Speaker 3: We'll see next time folks as well, which is gonna 618 00:37:02,200 --> 00:37:02,640 Speaker 3: be Thursday 619 00:37:09,520 --> 00:37:13,320 Speaker 2: For more podcasts from iHeartRadio, visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple podcasts, 620 00:37:13,400 --> 00:37:15,520 Speaker 2: or wherever you listen to your favorite shows.