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Speaker 1: Welcome to Stuff to Blow Your Mind, a production of iHeartRadio.

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Speaker 2: Hey A you welcome to Stuff to Blow your Mind.

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Speaker 2: My name is Robert Lamb.

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Speaker 3: And I am Joe McCormick. And in today's episode of

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Speaker 3: Stuff to Blow Your Mind, I wanted to talk about

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Speaker 3: creation myths, in particular an aspect of creation myths that

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Speaker 3: has always really interested me but which often felt kind

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Speaker 3: of overlooked, especially in my early religious education, and that

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Speaker 3: element is what people imagine the world was like before

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Speaker 3: the time of creation.

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Speaker 2: M Yeah, this is a this is a tough one, right,

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Speaker 2: I mean, because on one level, it's hard enough for

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Speaker 2: us to imagine the world before we were born, much

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Speaker 2: less some state of existence before the advent of humanity

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Speaker 2: or the event everything that came before that. But it's

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Speaker 2: you know, it's a it's an important, you know, core contemplation.

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Speaker 2: You know, what existed before the observable universe, And it's

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Speaker 2: such an enormous question. It's only only possible through human

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Speaker 2: reason and self awareness building, allowing us to build out mythological, philosophical,

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Speaker 2: and ultimately scientific models of phases of existence completely beyond

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Speaker 2: our time or beyond our observation, beyond our just you know,

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Speaker 2: basic fathomability, and in a literal sense. The interesting thing

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Speaker 2: is it does us absolutely no good as a species

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Speaker 2: to form an understanding, incorrect or even partially correct, of

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Speaker 2: of what such a period might have been like, or

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Speaker 2: to even call it a period. It may not even

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Speaker 2: be accurate, But to even contemplate such a thing it does.

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Speaker 2: It doesn't really give us a survival advantage or anything,

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Speaker 2: But it is, I guess, to a large extent, urged

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Speaker 2: onward by our deeply seated survival instinct to understand the

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Speaker 2: past in order to better navigate present in future threats.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely right, it pays to understand the past, But does

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Speaker 3: it pay to understand what came before the past? Are

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Speaker 3: there lessons to learn from that? But it is actually

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Speaker 3: a question worth examining when you're looking at religious or

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Speaker 3: mythological creation narratives, because one thing you will notice if

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Speaker 3: you start reading a bunch of these stories is that

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Speaker 3: a lot of them are actually not very well captured

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Speaker 3: by the English word creation, because, at least in English,

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Speaker 3: at least today in English, the word creation, I think,

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Speaker 3: tends to make people imagine the manufacturing of new materials

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Speaker 3: or substances that did not previously exist.

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Speaker 2: So if you think.

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Speaker 3: About the act of cosmic creation in that way, bringing

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Speaker 3: new substances into existence, bringing the world into existence out

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Speaker 3: of nothing, then it doesn't make a lot of sense

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Speaker 3: to talk about what the world was like before creation,

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Speaker 3: because there's nothing to talk about or to describe. But

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Speaker 3: the instantiation of new existence from nothing is actually not

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Speaker 3: what most creation narratives describe. In most cases, I would argue,

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Speaker 3: there is some kind of pre existing world or state

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Speaker 3: before creation, and the act of creation is not actually

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Speaker 3: what spits out the raw space and matter and energy

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Speaker 3: of the cosmos, but rather it is some kind of

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Speaker 3: sorting and ordering process which, whether by the intentional will

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Speaker 3: of a God or God's or by some kind of

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Speaker 3: happy accident, takes a static or maybe unorganized, or a

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Speaker 3: highly entropic or chaotic state of affairs, and imposes on

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Speaker 3: it some kind of order or struck sure which allows

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Speaker 3: stories to take place within that space. And I want

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Speaker 3: to illustrate this by looking at just one example, which

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Speaker 3: will probably be surprising to a lot of people who

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Speaker 3: grew up like I did reading the creation story in

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Speaker 3: the Book of Genesis, at least in its classic translated

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Speaker 3: form in English. So as we've just been talking about this,

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Speaker 3: I bet a lot of listeners were probably thinking, Okay, yeah,

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Speaker 3: some stories may have this ordering quality rather than a

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Speaker 3: creating quality. Maybe you're thinking of these creation by combat

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Speaker 3: type stories. We'll talk about some of these in our

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Speaker 3: episode today, but you might be thinking, well, the biblical

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Speaker 3: creation account in Genesis, that's got to be one of

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Speaker 3: the exceptions. That is a story that actually does feature

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Speaker 3: the creation ex nihilo, where God by his will instantiates

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Speaker 3: the universe out of non existence. And that's what I

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Speaker 3: used to think, because if you read the very first

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Speaker 3: sentence of Genesis one in the classic King James translation,

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Speaker 3: it says, reading from the King James, in the beginning,

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Speaker 3: God created the heaven and the earth, and the earth

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Speaker 3: was without form and void, and darkness was upon the

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Speaker 3: face of the deep, and the Spirit of God moved

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Speaker 3: upon the face of the waters. Now, a couple of

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Speaker 3: things about that passage actually, well, one of the reasons

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Speaker 3: I'm interested in talking about this subject today is my

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Speaker 3: memory from childhood of how overwhelmingly dark and mysterious this

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Speaker 3: passage sounded like, I guess, as with a lot of

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Speaker 3: things in the Bible, if you grow up reading it

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Speaker 3: or hearing about it. You can kind of just gloss

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Speaker 3: over it, like go past it pretty quick and not

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Speaker 3: really think about it. But if you stop and think

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Speaker 3: about this image, I think it is very frightening and

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Speaker 3: exciting and weird. So it is a world that did

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Speaker 3: not yet have light, because it doesn't. It says that

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Speaker 3: God didn't bring light into existence until the next verse.

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Speaker 3: But it has some quality of formlessness and emptiness, but

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Speaker 3: it's not completely empty because there are waters. It says

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Speaker 3: there are deep waters in this dark world, and the

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Speaker 3: deep waters have a surface. And then it says the

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Speaker 3: spirit of God or sometimes otherwise translated as the wind

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Speaker 3: of God moved upon the face of the waters. Again,

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Speaker 3: maybe you can just kind of go past you if

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Speaker 3: you don't think about it too hard. But when I

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Speaker 3: try to picture this world and like give it a

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Speaker 3: feeling of physical reality, it is literally hair raising to me,

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Speaker 3: kind of like if I really force myself today to

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Speaker 3: think about the physical reality of a black hole or

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Speaker 3: imagining myself on the surface of Titan or something.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, something like knowing that it's supposed to not

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Speaker 2: just be the surface of the ocean perhaps, but like

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Speaker 2: something that is like the surface of the water with

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Speaker 2: some sort of force moving across the top of it.

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Speaker 2: But there's nothing else yet. There's no fish. Yeah, no light,

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Speaker 2: Well there's no light. There's just kind of this, this

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Speaker 2: sort of semblance of darkness and depth and.

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Speaker 3: Presence, cosmically deep water wrapped enveloped in darkness, with a

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Speaker 3: kind of ghostly wind of the breath of God moving

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Speaker 3: across the top of it. Now, as I understood this

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Speaker 3: passage when I was young, this description would have been

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Speaker 3: of a sort of half created world, a creation in progress.

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Speaker 3: It was like the first state of affairs. God created

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Speaker 3: before the imposition of light, and before the land and

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Speaker 3: the day and the night, and plants and beasts and

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Speaker 3: human beings. And for a long time this was I

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Speaker 3: think the most common understanding among Christians, at least, I'm

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Speaker 3: not actually sure what is the most common understanding among

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Speaker 3: Jewish readers, But the common view that I encountered growing

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Speaker 3: up as an American Protestant was that the Biblical creation

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Speaker 3: story was a manufacturing type creation. Because the very first

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Speaker 3: words are in the beginning God created.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it makes it sound like this is not adapted

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Speaker 2: screenplay category. This is screenplay. This is not supposed to

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Speaker 2: be based on anything prior, right, But I know exactly

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Speaker 2: what you're you're getting at with all this, you know,

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Speaker 2: growing up in the church as well, like when you

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Speaker 2: begin to hear readings of these early early passages, or

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Speaker 2: more to the point, I think most of us, our

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Speaker 2: earliest experiences are not with direct Bible quotations necessarily, but

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Speaker 2: various like picture book Bible stories, you know, illustrations for children,

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Speaker 2: versions of the stories for children that very much simplify

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Speaker 2: things and certainly gloss over anything that might be confusing.

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Speaker 2: But then but then things do get confused, you know,

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Speaker 2: you start thinking about, okay, the darkness on the face

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Speaker 2: of the deep, what is the deep? Or certainly when

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Speaker 2: you get into the New Testament, I remember the first

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Speaker 2: time I've begin picking up in this whole. Okay, in

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Speaker 2: the beginning, there was the Word, and the word was

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Speaker 2: with God, and the Word was God, and I think

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Speaker 2: that was often poorly explained, and it is also kind

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Speaker 2: of inherently confusing. So I would just be setting or thinking, Okay,

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Speaker 2: you're telling me that before the creation of the universe,

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Speaker 2: there's just a Bible kicking around, Like what, It's more

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Speaker 2: complicated than that. But I do remember the initial confusion.

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Speaker 3: I actually had to do a sidebar on this because

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Speaker 3: I know exactly what you're talking about. Though in the

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Speaker 3: beginning was the word in the Gospel of John. That's

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Speaker 3: a whole other can of worms. It is a very

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Speaker 3: common Protestant interpretation of that verse that the word refers

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Speaker 3: to the Bible, because they say, like, you know, let's

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Speaker 3: now hear the word of God, and they mean reading

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Speaker 3: from the Bible. This is almost definitely not what the

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Speaker 3: author meant in that passage. The English word word is

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Speaker 3: a translation of the Greek logos, which has a host

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Speaker 3: of meanings including word, but also means like reason, logic, discourse,

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Speaker 3: maybe order. And there are literally whole books on what

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Speaker 3: the author of the Gospel of John meant by the

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Speaker 3: word logos there. So it's like a very fraught and

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Speaker 3: complex and highly entangled theological and philosophical concept. But at

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Speaker 3: the risk of oversimplifying, it seems to have something to

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Speaker 3: do with the author's belief that Jesus is the embodiment

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Speaker 3: of a divine principle that existed before creation with God,

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Speaker 3: as a part of God or as an expression of

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Speaker 3: God's power in a way that is actually manifested as words,

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Speaker 3: So in the way that God speaks things into existence

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Speaker 3: in the Genesis narrative by saying their names, like in

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Speaker 3: the in the very next verse after those first two verses,

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Speaker 3: I was just reading, God says, let there be light,

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Speaker 3: and then there is light, so he speaks the word,

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Speaker 3: and then the reality comes into being. And I would

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Speaker 3: even relate this to other things outside of ancient Judaism,

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Speaker 3: Like we've talked about the way that words have literal

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Speaker 3: power to transform reality in Egyptian magic. I mean, this

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Speaker 3: is a common way of thinking in the ancient world,

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Speaker 3: that there is some kind of magical or creation potential

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Speaker 3: in language itself, and that when the words are spoken

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Speaker 3: by God or by the gods, they have even this

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Speaker 3: greater power. So like God's word is in itself a

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Speaker 3: kind of infinite divine potential.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, I mean, and really, like the whole discussion

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Speaker 2: we're having here is possible because of words. I mean,

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Speaker 2: there's of course the simple version of that, but also

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Speaker 2: like language allows us to deal with increasingly loftier and

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Speaker 2: complex subjects and topics, that allows us to talk about

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Speaker 2: things like the time before the beginning of time.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, exactly, that nature yeah, but to be clear, yeah,

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Speaker 3: the word in the Gospel of John, don't think I

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Speaker 3: don't think it's supposed to mean the Bible and it

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Speaker 3: doesn't just mean word. It's this like highly complex, multi

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Speaker 3: layered theological, philosophical load that is being delivered there.

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Speaker 2: But when you're a kid, yeah, you think you could

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Speaker 2: just say here word and you're like, what does that

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Speaker 2: even mean? And then, like I said, I think half

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Speaker 2: the time it's very poorly explained or the person that's

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Speaker 2: reading is like, don't worry about that, Yeah, just move

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Speaker 2: on to the next topic, that sort of thing.

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Speaker 3: But so, anyway, so we jumped off of that from

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Speaker 3: talking about how my understanding used to always be, and

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Speaker 3: the common understanding for a long time was that the

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Speaker 3: Biblical creation narrative had this manufacturing quality in the beginning

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Speaker 3: God created. Now imagine my surprise years later when I

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Speaker 3: encountered a different English translation of the exact same passage

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Speaker 3: in the Bible. Again. This is Genesis chapter one, the

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Speaker 3: first couple of verses. This translation says in dead when

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Speaker 3: God began to create the heavens and the earth, the

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Speaker 3: earth was complete chaos and darkness covered the face of

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Speaker 3: the deep, while a wind from God swept over the

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Speaker 3: face of the waters. So this is from a more

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Speaker 3: modern translation. The first one I read was the King James,

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Speaker 3: which is hundreds of years old. This is from the

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Speaker 3: updated edition of the New Revised Standard Version or n RSV,

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Speaker 3: which uses modern scholarship to try to capture more faithfully

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Speaker 3: the meaning of the original Hebrew. In this case does

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Speaker 3: the Hebrew and the Greek of the New Testament, but

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Speaker 3: still it has that haunting description of the darkness enveloping

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Speaker 3: the deep waters. It has the wind of God rushing

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Speaker 3: over the surface of the ocean. But the first few

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Speaker 3: words are very different. It is not in the beginning

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Speaker 3: God created, implying the raw manufacture. Instead, it says when

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Speaker 3: God began to create the heavens and the earth, the

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Speaker 3: earth was, suggesting that the darkness was wrapping the deep water,

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Speaker 3: and the rushing wind or the spirit of God was

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Speaker 3: above the face of the ocean, and this is what

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Speaker 3: things were already like when God began the creation. And

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Speaker 3: from what I can tell, most scholars agree that this

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Speaker 3: newer translation is closer to the plain meaning of the

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Speaker 3: passage in Hebrew. And I think that's so interesting because,

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Speaker 3: like so many people read this story and they think

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Speaker 3: this is how the world was made, and this is

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Speaker 3: a totally different understanding of the initial state of affairs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. The idea that there's something out like

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Speaker 2: some makes it sound like there's like some very limited

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Speaker 2: wasteland that already existed. Now, why is it a wasteland?

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Speaker 2: Was there something before this? Is this just what was

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Speaker 2: left after the lizard men blew it? I don't know.

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Speaker 2: The Bible doesn't get into that though.

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Speaker 3: Well, actually that'll tie right into something about I want

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Speaker 3: to get into further about the translation of this passage.

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Speaker 3: So I was reading about this in a twenty twenty

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Speaker 3: two paper by University of Toronto professor Robert D. Holmstead

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Speaker 3: in the Journal for Semitics called the Syntax of Genesis

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Speaker 3: ie Verses one to three. And in this paper, the

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Speaker 3: scholar Homestead analyzes the linguistic features of the first three

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Speaker 3: verses of Genesis, and he says there are two plausible

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Speaker 3: ways of translating this passage, or he calls it analyzing

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Speaker 3: this passage saying what it is supposed to mean most literally,

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Speaker 3: But he says in both of these analyzes, the description

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Speaker 3: of that dark world and the deep waters that we've

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Speaker 3: been talking about is a parenthetical describing what the world

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Speaker 3: was like before God began his work. Now, interestingly, in

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Speaker 3: this translation and in all of the updated translations that

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Speaker 3: I've read, God does seem to instantiate or manufacture some

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Speaker 3: of the raw materials of reality. So it's not like

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Speaker 3: God doesn't have the power to create things from nothing.

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Speaker 3: For example, in verse three, the story says that God said,

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Speaker 3: let there be light, or in Holmsteat's translation, let light exist,

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Speaker 3: and then light begins to exist, so he speaks it,

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Speaker 3: and then it does come into existence. So I think

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Speaker 3: that is truly meant to be read as raw creation.

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Speaker 3: And of course light is a very important ingredient in

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Speaker 3: the universe. So I don't think this is this way

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Speaker 3: of reading the story has any less implication of God's

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Speaker 3: power to create. It's just telling a different kind of

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Speaker 3: order of affairs. But this dark world and the deep

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Speaker 3: water and the hovering wind of God over the surface

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Speaker 3: of the water that was all there before, And in

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Speaker 3: keeping with that, in Homestead's two possible analyzes of this passage,

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Speaker 3: the first sentence does not use the word created at all.

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Speaker 3: Homesteadt cites another scholar named Walton who makes extensive arguments

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Speaker 3: that create is the wrong translation of the Hebrew verb

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Speaker 3: in question, and Holmstead himself instead uses the term ordered.

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Speaker 3: He says, so God ordered the heavens and the earth.

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Speaker 3: He also acknowledges a scholar named Ellen van Wolda who

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Speaker 3: argues that the best translation is separate. God separated the

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Speaker 3: heavens and the earth. Either way in the story, this

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Speaker 3: is not an act of making, but of organizing, bringing

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Speaker 3: structure and character to these deep cosmic fathoms that came before.

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Speaker 3: By the way, just since we're on the subject of

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Speaker 3: this paper, one more interesting argument that Homestead makes is

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Speaker 3: about the very first phrase of Genesis, one which is

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Speaker 3: usually translated in the beginning with a definite article referring

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Speaker 3: to the only beginning, the beginning of all time and space,

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Speaker 3: for various linguistic reasons. Holmsteat says, actually, there are two

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Speaker 3: possible translations which better capture the original meaning. One is

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Speaker 3: in a beginning rather than in the beginning. So in

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Speaker 3: a beginning, God ordered the heavens and the earth. You

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Speaker 3: can take this opening as similar to the phrase once

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Speaker 3: upon a time, denoting a point of beginning among many

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Speaker 3: worlds or possibilities and then the other possible reading he gives,

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Speaker 3: which has a pretty similar ultimate meaning, is in the

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Speaker 3: beginning in which God ordered the heavens in the earth.

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Speaker 3: This is once again setting the beginning of the story

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Speaker 3: as one among multiple possibilities. Kind of like if you

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Speaker 3: were to say, hey, tell the story that starts with

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Speaker 3: Mary finding a kitten. Oh, okay, in the story where

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Speaker 3: Mary finds a kitten. So it's kind of like that

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Speaker 3: in the story where God, where God orders the heavens

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Speaker 3: and the earth. But both of these phrasings really cause us,

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Speaker 3: i think, to take differently the intended meaning of the

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Speaker 3: Creation's story being told not just as the beginning, but

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Speaker 3: as one of many possible or many actual beginnings of

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Speaker 3: the world in the teller's view. So Homestead says, quote,

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Speaker 3: either way, the door is logically open to other beginnings

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Speaker 3: that were before this particular one. Bring us back to

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Speaker 3: what you're just say, after the lizard people blew it

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Speaker 3: up or whatever.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so the door is biblically open for lizard men

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Speaker 2: and great old ones and whatever you want to put

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Speaker 2: in there in the prequel.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, at least that's the case. Homestead makes that the

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Speaker 3: best way of the most faithful translation here would say

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Speaker 3: that the story is not saying this was the only

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Speaker 3: way that the world was ever created. There may have

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Speaker 3: been many other creations before, There may be other creations after.

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Speaker 3: This was a beginning, one way God decided to do

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Speaker 3: it one time at least?

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Speaker 2: Oh wow, do creationists know about this yet, because it

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Speaker 2: seems like this would open up new possibilities.

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Speaker 3: I don't want to just like slam on Young Earth

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Speaker 3: creationists here. I mean, obviously we know that the Earth

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Speaker 3: is not just six thousand years old, but I'm not

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Speaker 3: not trying to hate on people who believe that. But

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Speaker 3: I do think it's interesting how as far as I'm aware,

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Speaker 3: people who have the young Earth creationist viewpoint seem to

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Speaker 3: sometimes be really resistant to scholarship that offers readings of

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Speaker 3: the Bible that would alleviate some of their concerns. You know,

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Speaker 3: like this would actually reduce, like I think, a more

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Speaker 3: faithful reading of the creation narrative. It would actually give

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Speaker 3: you more room to say, oh, Okay, it's not so

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Speaker 3: much a problem that this conflicts with science, because maybe

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Speaker 3: I'm not supposed to read this literally. Maybe that is

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Speaker 3: not actually what the author or what God even intended

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Speaker 3: but I think there's just a lot of resistance to that. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 3: because I think I mean, if I can just psychologize

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Speaker 3: a little bit, I think a lot of times, when

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Speaker 3: we get really rigid about representing a point of view

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Speaker 3: like Young Earth creationism according to your interpretation of the Bible,

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Speaker 3: a lot of times what we're really showing fidelity to

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Speaker 3: is our own past experience, Like we don't want to

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Speaker 3: budge from the way we have always felt about the narrative.

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Speaker 3: So if somebody offers you a revision of how the

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Speaker 3: narrative should be understood, you will resist that as well.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, it's like the same thing that you're resisting, but

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Speaker 2: from a different direction.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, but anyway, So that's what I wanted to talk

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Speaker 3: about in this series, is these visions of the world

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Speaker 3: from different types of creation accounts, visions of the world

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Speaker 3: before what is commonly understood as the act of creation

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Speaker 3: took place, and also maybe looking at what in these

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Speaker 3: stories had to change about the world in order for

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Speaker 3: it to be seen as now ready for the beginning

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Speaker 3: of history or for the beginning of the story. So

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Speaker 3: before we move on to talk about specific examples of

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Speaker 3: pre creation narratives, Rob I know you've got a really

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Speaker 3: interesting one I'm excited to look at today. But before

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Speaker 3: we get to that, I just wanted to mention a

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Speaker 3: few more things, like reasons I find this topic of

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Speaker 3: the world before creation really interesting. One thing I wanted

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Speaker 3: to harp on a little bit more is just the

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Speaker 3: aesthetics of it. Like I've already talked about how I

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Speaker 3: always found it haunting to think about that sketch from

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Speaker 3: Genesis of the darkness upon the deep waters and the

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Speaker 3: wind of God rushing above. But there are other visions

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Speaker 3: of the world before Creation that are beautiful and strange

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Speaker 3: and frightening in similar ways. But sometimes they are illuminating

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Speaker 3: about ontologies, like visions of the world before creation can

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Speaker 3: inform us about what a culture and a people thought

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Speaker 3: it meant for things to exist. So one that I

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Speaker 3: find really striking is the description of the pre creation

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Speaker 3: world in the Babylonian Epic of Creation. This is sometimes

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Speaker 3: called the enuma a leash, which comes from the first

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Speaker 3: two words of the poem in the original language numa Aleish,

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Speaker 3: which means usually translated as something like when on high

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Speaker 3: or in the skies above or something.

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Speaker 1: So.

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Speaker 3: My Oxford University Press edition of the Myths of Mesopotamia,

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Speaker 3: translated by Stephanie Dally, It goes like this here, when

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Speaker 3: skies above were not yet named, nor earth below pronounced

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Speaker 3: by name, Apsu the first one, their begetter and maker Tiamot,

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Speaker 3: who bore them, all had mixed their waters together, but

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Speaker 3: had not formed pastures nor discovered reed beds. When yet

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Speaker 3: no gods were manifest, nor name pronounced, nor destinies decreed.

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Speaker 3: Then gods were born within them, Lamu and Lahamu emerged,

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Speaker 3: their names pronounced. So a lot of things are interesting

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Speaker 3: about this, and we may return to it in a

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Speaker 3: later part in the series. But one thing I really

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Speaker 3: like about the Dali translation in particular here is the

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Speaker 3: blurring of the distinction between the existence of things and

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Speaker 3: the naming of things. So, instead of just saying sky

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Speaker 3: and earth did not exist, as some translations I have found,

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Speaker 3: they translate it more like that. Here it says they

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Speaker 3: were not named, And in ancient Mesopotamian thinking, it seems

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Speaker 3: that there may actually be some conceptual overlap here. To

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Speaker 3: what extent do things exist if they are not named?

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Speaker 3: Is existence a thing separate from observation and recognition? Maybe

403
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Speaker 3: if a thing is not actually named. It's just sort

404
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Speaker 3: of a chaotic potential, and it is not really itself

405
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Speaker 3: yet until it is recognized. So either way, before the

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Speaker 3: naming and possibly before the existence of earth and sky,

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Speaker 3: you know, before we get the what the pastures or

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Speaker 3: the metalands, before the marshes or the reed beds, there

409
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Speaker 3: are these two substances or principles. They're both watery in nature,

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Speaker 3: and they're joined in this union. You've got Opsu, who

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Speaker 3: is the god embodying fresh water or just maybe is

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Speaker 3: fresh water or is the subterranean waters. And then you've

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Speaker 3: got Tiamot, the goddess embodying salt water or bitter water.

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Speaker 3: And this part of the story, the creation event, is

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Speaker 3: not a god exerting its will and imposing order like

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Speaker 3: we get in the biblical narrative, though there is something

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Speaker 3: like that later in this story. Instead, it is this

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Speaker 3: joining of chaotic potential, almost a biological telling of creation,

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Speaker 3: where you have the mingling of salt water and fresh

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Speaker 3: which results in a sort of divine pregnancy and the

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Speaker 3: birth of the gods, leading to many generations of gods

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Speaker 3: whose activities will define the later parts of the story.

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Speaker 3: But the interesting thing is that much later in the

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Speaker 3: story there is a second act of creation by divine

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Speaker 3: imposition of order. So the second act of creation in

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Speaker 3: it is the classic creation by combat narrative. As we mentioned,

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Speaker 3: it's common to many mythologies. We'll probably talk about some

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Speaker 3: other examples of it in the series. But in the

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Speaker 3: Babylonian Epic of Creation, the short version goes like this.

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Speaker 3: Apsu becomes unhappy because the younger generations of gods are

431
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Speaker 3: making too much noise, way too noisy, really annoying, so

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Speaker 3: he plots to kill them. But the younger gods rebel

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Speaker 3: and they kill Apsu, and then, enraged at this offense, Tiamot,

434
00:26:55,920 --> 00:27:00,400
Speaker 3: his mate, makes monsters descend against the young gods as revenge,

435
00:27:00,640 --> 00:27:03,880
Speaker 3: and then the young gods, represented by Marduke, the hero

436
00:27:04,000 --> 00:27:07,679
Speaker 3: deity of the city of Babylon, slay their ancestor Tiamot,

437
00:27:07,720 --> 00:27:12,000
Speaker 3: and then they fashion the world, or mar Marduke does.

438
00:27:12,240 --> 00:27:15,760
Speaker 3: They fashion the world out of her dead body. And

439
00:27:15,840 --> 00:27:18,040
Speaker 3: so if you take this part of the story to

440
00:27:18,080 --> 00:27:20,840
Speaker 3: be the act of creation instead of the earlier like

441
00:27:21,040 --> 00:27:24,159
Speaker 3: mingling of Tiamat and Apsu and the birth of the

442
00:27:24,160 --> 00:27:29,320
Speaker 3: younger gods, the world before is the body of the

443
00:27:29,440 --> 00:27:33,480
Speaker 3: chaotic deep salt waters, the body of Tiamot, so her

444
00:27:33,480 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 3: body parts after her defeat are chopped up by Marduke

445
00:27:36,840 --> 00:27:39,399
Speaker 3: and made into the land and the sky and you

446
00:27:39,440 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 3: get the mountains and the vault of Heaven and everything

447
00:27:41,880 --> 00:27:45,159
Speaker 3: like that. So it is a repurposing of the body

448
00:27:45,160 --> 00:27:49,080
Speaker 3: of a god, a repurposing of material into the created,

449
00:27:49,320 --> 00:27:52,240
Speaker 3: ordered world in which history can take place.

450
00:27:53,560 --> 00:27:55,359
Speaker 2: Yeah, and you're right, we're going to see I think,

451
00:27:55,480 --> 00:27:59,200
Speaker 2: multiple examples of this as well as these other factors.

452
00:27:59,200 --> 00:28:03,400
Speaker 2: And sometimes you'll see you'll see the different different variations

453
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:07,760
Speaker 2: within a single creation story. And as I think, as

454
00:28:07,800 --> 00:28:10,520
Speaker 2: what we'll also be discussing, sometimes talking about a single

455
00:28:10,560 --> 00:28:14,479
Speaker 2: creation story itself is kind of a misleading idea because

456
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,359
Speaker 2: any given you know, ancient culture is going to probably

457
00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:22,679
Speaker 2: have multiple different traditions, traditions that are forgotten at times

458
00:28:22,760 --> 00:28:26,439
Speaker 2: that are then folded up into other traditions, imported traditions,

459
00:28:27,400 --> 00:28:29,640
Speaker 2: and then eventually they're written down and they may take

460
00:28:29,640 --> 00:28:32,679
Speaker 2: on a different flavor then, So a lot of different

461
00:28:33,440 --> 00:28:35,119
Speaker 2: chefs coming in and out of the kitchen.

462
00:28:35,840 --> 00:28:39,200
Speaker 3: Absolutely, you know, one rabbit hole I went down that

463
00:28:39,280 --> 00:28:41,960
Speaker 3: I didn't end up creating any kind of notes about

464
00:28:42,000 --> 00:28:44,600
Speaker 3: for today because it was but just an interesting rabbit

465
00:28:44,640 --> 00:28:47,080
Speaker 3: hole I went down while doing research for this episode

466
00:28:47,680 --> 00:28:54,040
Speaker 3: was about methodological problems in establishing narratives of mythology, because

467
00:28:55,120 --> 00:28:58,600
Speaker 3: you know, what some scholars today have started pointing out

468
00:28:58,880 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 3: is that you might, like, look at a story like

469
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 3: the Numa aliation, say, this is the creation narrative of

470
00:29:06,680 --> 00:29:10,720
Speaker 3: you know, some people in ancient Mesopotamia, of ancient Babylonians

471
00:29:10,800 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 3: or whatever, and you might, well, that might well be

472
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280
Speaker 3: true to in some sense. But you can also look

473
00:29:16,280 --> 00:29:18,400
Speaker 3: at a lot of these narratives that have come down

474
00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:22,920
Speaker 3: to us as artifacts of the particular time and situation

475
00:29:23,200 --> 00:29:28,280
Speaker 3: in which the text form was created. So you know,

476
00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 3: most of these narratives probably do have some kind of

477
00:29:32,320 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 3: oral basis. You know, they're coming from some well of

478
00:29:36,360 --> 00:29:38,600
Speaker 3: oral tradition. Maybe not all of them, and maybe some

479
00:29:38,640 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 3: are original compositions by the original text creator, but most

480
00:29:42,040 --> 00:29:45,920
Speaker 3: of them probably have some oral tradition behind them, and

481
00:29:45,960 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 3: then at some point in history somebody sets it down

482
00:29:50,520 --> 00:29:53,600
Speaker 3: in a text form, which then of course has its

483
00:29:53,600 --> 00:29:56,320
Speaker 3: own history after that because of you know, copying and versions.

484
00:29:56,320 --> 00:29:59,520
Speaker 3: You know, so texts change as well, but often the

485
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:03,000
Speaker 3: version that becomes the first text we know in some

486
00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:10,000
Speaker 3: cases is a kind of combination of pre existing mythologies

487
00:30:10,080 --> 00:30:16,120
Speaker 3: with the textualizer's own personal additions and structure imposition of

488
00:30:16,120 --> 00:30:18,840
Speaker 3: structure and things. So it's just easy to start thinking

489
00:30:18,880 --> 00:30:22,320
Speaker 3: of a lot of things as the mythology that emerges

490
00:30:22,400 --> 00:30:25,200
Speaker 3: from the people and the you know, common folk belief.

491
00:30:25,880 --> 00:30:27,719
Speaker 3: But a lot of things we may think of that

492
00:30:27,760 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 3: way actually are coming from the act of turning a

493
00:30:31,960 --> 00:30:35,840
Speaker 3: tradition into the text. Sorry if that was convoluted, but

494
00:30:35,880 --> 00:30:39,520
Speaker 3: I was just trying to recreate that from memory. Yeah, anyway,

495
00:30:39,640 --> 00:30:42,400
Speaker 3: one more tangent I wanted to do before we get

496
00:30:42,440 --> 00:30:45,960
Speaker 3: to your great example to talk about today, Rob. In

497
00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:48,320
Speaker 3: this series, we're not planning on doing a like a

498
00:30:48,400 --> 00:30:52,120
Speaker 3: running comparison between mythological accounts of creation and our best

499
00:30:52,120 --> 00:30:56,720
Speaker 3: scientific theories of how the universe began. I don't think

500
00:30:56,760 --> 00:30:59,760
Speaker 3: that's a very useful exercise because obviously, like the people

501
00:30:59,760 --> 00:31:02,760
Speaker 3: who told these stories did not have access to technology

502
00:31:02,840 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: or the theoretical grounding to the kinds of things that

503
00:31:06,160 --> 00:31:08,480
Speaker 3: we have to understand the universe today, So it doesn't

504
00:31:08,520 --> 00:31:12,320
Speaker 3: make sense to judge their stories on the basis of

505
00:31:12,400 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 3: questions like did they get the facts right.

506
00:31:15,000 --> 00:31:17,920
Speaker 2: Right, because sometimes they sort of do, and it's nice

507
00:31:17,960 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 2: when it happens. It's kind of it's noteworthy, and we'll

508
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:23,040
Speaker 2: probably bring that up a few times. But it also Yeah,

509
00:31:23,440 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 2: it's not like that means the creation myth is bad

510
00:31:26,560 --> 00:31:30,440
Speaker 2: or incorrect because it doesn't line up with the current

511
00:31:30,600 --> 00:31:33,560
Speaker 2: most popular astronomical model or something.

512
00:31:33,760 --> 00:31:36,440
Speaker 3: Well, yeah it doesn't. I mean, it's neither for nor

513
00:31:36,480 --> 00:31:39,000
Speaker 3: against whether it lines up or not. Yeah, I think

514
00:31:39,320 --> 00:31:41,960
Speaker 3: we're just we're trying to understand these stories on their

515
00:31:42,000 --> 00:31:44,840
Speaker 3: own terms and think about what they reveal about us

516
00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,560
Speaker 3: and about the people who told them. But I thought

517
00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:49,640
Speaker 3: it would be worthwhile, just for a bit of grounding

518
00:31:49,800 --> 00:31:54,000
Speaker 3: to make clear that in physics based cosmology, we currently

519
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:58,240
Speaker 3: do not have a solid way of knowing what, if anything,

520
00:31:58,880 --> 00:32:03,600
Speaker 3: existed before or outside of our local universe. So our

521
00:32:03,760 --> 00:32:07,160
Speaker 3: best model of the history of our universe is an

522
00:32:07,280 --> 00:32:10,440
Speaker 3: updated version of what usually gets called the Big Bang,

523
00:32:10,720 --> 00:32:15,240
Speaker 3: And in short, the theory goes like this, About thirteen

524
00:32:15,280 --> 00:32:19,560
Speaker 3: point eight billion years ago, the observable universe existed in

525
00:32:19,600 --> 00:32:24,000
Speaker 3: an incredibly hot, dense state, and then this region of

526
00:32:24,040 --> 00:32:27,480
Speaker 3: space and the energy within it began to expand rapidly

527
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,760
Speaker 3: and cool energy took the form of particles, including matter.

528
00:32:32,160 --> 00:32:36,080
Speaker 3: Matter aggregated to itself through gravitational attraction, and it formed

529
00:32:36,120 --> 00:32:39,040
Speaker 3: things like stars and planets, and the universe has been

530
00:32:39,080 --> 00:32:43,920
Speaker 3: expanding and cooling ever since. We know this from multiple

531
00:32:43,960 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 3: lines of evidence that the Big Bang theory is not

532
00:32:46,360 --> 00:32:49,280
Speaker 3: just guesswork. There are a lot of different lines of evidence,

533
00:32:49,320 --> 00:32:53,000
Speaker 3: all converging, all pointing toward it, and some of the

534
00:32:53,040 --> 00:32:56,600
Speaker 3: main pieces of evidence include the observations of the cosmic

535
00:32:56,680 --> 00:33:01,560
Speaker 3: microwave background. This is the energy glide left over after

536
00:33:01,640 --> 00:33:05,040
Speaker 3: the universe first cooled enough to become transparent to light,

537
00:33:05,520 --> 00:33:08,160
Speaker 3: and we can actually see this glow directly with our

538
00:33:08,200 --> 00:33:13,120
Speaker 3: telescopes in every direction. Another major piece of evidence is

539
00:33:13,200 --> 00:33:17,120
Speaker 3: the red shift of distant galaxies. So because the light

540
00:33:17,240 --> 00:33:21,000
Speaker 3: from distant galaxies is red shifted, we know that those

541
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,800
Speaker 3: galaxies are moving away from us. Not moving away from

542
00:33:25,920 --> 00:33:28,240
Speaker 3: us in the sense of flying further away from us,

543
00:33:28,240 --> 00:33:30,840
Speaker 3: but moving in the sense that the space between us

544
00:33:30,880 --> 00:33:34,440
Speaker 3: is expanding, and this is evidence of the past and

545
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:38,440
Speaker 3: continued expansion of space in the universe. And then another

546
00:33:38,600 --> 00:33:41,880
Speaker 3: major piece of evidence often sited is the relative abundance

547
00:33:42,000 --> 00:33:46,680
Speaker 3: of elements like hydrogen and helium. Basically, you find these

548
00:33:46,760 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 3: elements in almost exactly the quantities that are mathematically predicted

549
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:54,280
Speaker 3: by the nucleosynthesis model of the Big Bang. So a

550
00:33:54,320 --> 00:33:57,000
Speaker 3: lot of different evidence all backing up the Big Bang

551
00:33:57,040 --> 00:34:00,520
Speaker 3: theory as the basic history of the universe of its expansion,

552
00:34:01,440 --> 00:34:04,120
Speaker 3: and the Big Bang theory has been updated since its

553
00:34:04,160 --> 00:34:07,520
Speaker 3: earliest inception. It's not exactly the same as it was

554
00:34:07,800 --> 00:34:11,319
Speaker 3: when people first thought it up. For example, most physicists

555
00:34:11,440 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 3: now accept a modification called inflation or cosmic inflation, where

556
00:34:17,719 --> 00:34:21,560
Speaker 3: this is complicated, but basically, in the earliest fraction of

557
00:34:21,600 --> 00:34:27,080
Speaker 3: a second of our universe, space expanded and cooled exponentially

558
00:34:27,280 --> 00:34:30,640
Speaker 3: much more rapidly, and then this led into a phase

559
00:34:30,680 --> 00:34:34,360
Speaker 3: called reheating, which created the hot, dense early state of

560
00:34:34,360 --> 00:34:37,040
Speaker 3: the universe consistent with the Big Bang. And then the

561
00:34:37,080 --> 00:34:41,600
Speaker 3: expansion after this settled into a still dynamic but overall

562
00:34:41,760 --> 00:34:46,960
Speaker 3: slower rate thereafter. But even with these modifications like inflation,

563
00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 3: the Big Bang theory is only a model of the

564
00:34:50,280 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 3: history of our observable universe, and it does not answer

565
00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,200
Speaker 3: what if anything, came before the beginning of the expansion

566
00:34:59,640 --> 00:35:01,920
Speaker 3: thirty point eight billion years ago. I mean, you can

567
00:35:01,920 --> 00:35:04,279
Speaker 3: talk about inflation, but still that's just tracing it back

568
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:07,359
Speaker 3: to a point about thirteen point eight billion years ago

569
00:35:07,719 --> 00:35:11,920
Speaker 3: when this expansion began. Physicists do try to come up

570
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:15,719
Speaker 3: with models that could pre date or lead to this

571
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,440
Speaker 3: initial state of the Big Bang. For example, some have

572
00:35:19,640 --> 00:35:24,920
Speaker 3: proposed a cyclical universe, like a universe that continually expands

573
00:35:24,960 --> 00:35:27,880
Speaker 3: and then contracts on itself over and over, or have

574
00:35:28,040 --> 00:35:31,840
Speaker 3: proposed methods through which new bubble universes could be created

575
00:35:31,880 --> 00:35:36,160
Speaker 3: out of old universes. But we don't have direct evidence

576
00:35:36,200 --> 00:35:39,040
Speaker 3: for these worlds before. The best you can do right

577
00:35:39,080 --> 00:35:42,520
Speaker 3: now is try to create a mathematically consistent model that

578
00:35:42,680 --> 00:35:45,799
Speaker 3: is consistent with the things we observe, but you're not

579
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,840
Speaker 3: going to have direct evidence for it. So currently science

580
00:35:49,000 --> 00:35:52,280
Speaker 3: doesn't really give us a picture of the world before.

581
00:35:52,480 --> 00:35:55,640
Speaker 3: If there even was or is such a thing, it is,

582
00:35:55,800 --> 00:35:59,120
Speaker 3: at least for now, beyond our reach. So we don't

583
00:35:59,120 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 3: have scientific acts to the world before.

584
00:36:01,560 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, to say the least, things get very complicated when

585
00:36:04,120 --> 00:36:08,799
Speaker 2: you start thinking about about time and in all of

586
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:12,320
Speaker 2: this and how time seems to work, and so sometimes

587
00:36:12,520 --> 00:36:17,280
Speaker 2: questions of before don't really make a lot of sense. Yeah. Yeah,

588
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,279
Speaker 2: And then likewise, like to your point, if if there

589
00:36:20,440 --> 00:36:24,520
Speaker 2: was a before and that before was in like essentially

590
00:36:24,520 --> 00:36:27,480
Speaker 2: before like everything got scrapped and crunched down, like, then

591
00:36:27,520 --> 00:36:29,560
Speaker 2: all the evidence is lost, like as far as we

592
00:36:29,600 --> 00:36:33,440
Speaker 2: can understand it, so you know, the evidence is destroyed. Likewise,

593
00:36:33,440 --> 00:36:36,719
Speaker 2: if the evidence exists outside of this universe, in other

594
00:36:36,880 --> 00:36:41,759
Speaker 2: universes or pocket universes, also beyond our grasp and understanding.

595
00:36:42,160 --> 00:36:45,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, though I do want to say, looking beyond the

596
00:36:45,160 --> 00:36:49,040
Speaker 3: boundaries of our observable universe in time or space is

597
00:36:49,080 --> 00:36:53,680
Speaker 3: not you know, I don't think that is like fringe behavior.

598
00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,120
Speaker 3: I mean, I think it's a perfectly reasonable thing to

599
00:36:56,160 --> 00:36:58,480
Speaker 3: try to create models for and see like what would

600
00:36:58,480 --> 00:37:02,319
Speaker 3: actually be plausible. But we don't currently know of any

601
00:37:02,320 --> 00:37:04,640
Speaker 3: way those models could be. You know, we can't look

602
00:37:04,760 --> 00:37:07,839
Speaker 3: directly for evidence of those things, at least as far

603
00:37:07,840 --> 00:37:08,319
Speaker 3: as we know.

604
00:37:08,840 --> 00:37:10,840
Speaker 2: Right right, And we don't want to open those portals

605
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:13,560
Speaker 2: through which the lizardmen and they're great old when gods

606
00:37:13,560 --> 00:37:15,840
Speaker 2: could just swarm back into our reality.

607
00:37:17,200 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 3: I just want to say, we have no reason to

608
00:37:19,040 --> 00:37:22,600
Speaker 3: assume that the lizard men have hostile intentions that should

609
00:37:22,640 --> 00:37:25,800
Speaker 3: be perfectly benevolent lizards from another dimension.

610
00:37:25,960 --> 00:37:27,880
Speaker 2: Yeah, or it could just be transactional. They're just like

611
00:37:27,920 --> 00:37:30,360
Speaker 2: we want your peanut butter, and we are willing to

612
00:37:30,400 --> 00:37:32,480
Speaker 2: trade for it, and we'll just hear them out. Who

613
00:37:32,560 --> 00:37:34,319
Speaker 2: knows what they have. We might like it more than

614
00:37:34,360 --> 00:37:36,879
Speaker 2: we like peanut but are hard to imagine, but maybe

615
00:37:36,880 --> 00:37:48,160
Speaker 2: they've had they have something, Rob.

616
00:37:48,239 --> 00:37:50,840
Speaker 3: I think you wanted to talk about a really interesting

617
00:37:50,920 --> 00:37:53,719
Speaker 3: example from Chinese mythology.

618
00:37:53,239 --> 00:37:55,279
Speaker 2: Right, that's right. I want to talk a little bit

619
00:37:55,320 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 2: about Panghu or pangou Shie. This is a creator her

620
00:38:00,920 --> 00:38:05,840
Speaker 2: entity in Chinese mythology, but it's a little more complicated

621
00:38:05,880 --> 00:38:07,320
Speaker 2: than that, and I think you'll find, like I was

622
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:10,960
Speaker 2: kind of teasing out earlier, this is the tradition surrounding

623
00:38:11,080 --> 00:38:14,360
Speaker 2: this entity kind of get into a number of different

624
00:38:14,600 --> 00:38:18,680
Speaker 2: creation story types. And I'm going to be drawing on

625
00:38:18,840 --> 00:38:20,960
Speaker 2: a couple of different texts that I've referred to in

626
00:38:21,000 --> 00:38:24,480
Speaker 2: the past when we've talked about Chinese mythology. So is

627
00:38:24,800 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 2: Anne Beryl points out in her book Chinese Mythology and

628
00:38:27,640 --> 00:38:33,160
Speaker 2: Introduction there were various Chinese cosmological myths and they fit

629
00:38:33,719 --> 00:38:36,719
Speaker 2: a general pattern, and that is that the universe is

630
00:38:36,760 --> 00:38:40,360
Speaker 2: not created out of nothing, but out of some form

631
00:38:40,440 --> 00:38:43,960
Speaker 2: of pre existing matter, and she writes that this generally

632
00:38:44,000 --> 00:38:48,000
Speaker 2: takes the form of some sort of primeval vapor that

633
00:38:48,080 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 2: must somehow be differentiated into the two fundamental opposing forces

634
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:57,839
Speaker 2: of yin and yang to become reality as we know it.

635
00:38:58,920 --> 00:39:01,719
Speaker 2: She also notes that the myths and their early view

636
00:39:01,840 --> 00:39:05,560
Speaker 2: of the cosmos they have some similarities with say, ancient

637
00:39:05,560 --> 00:39:09,920
Speaker 2: Egyptian thought, but they are distinct from Judeo Christian models

638
00:39:10,160 --> 00:39:13,640
Speaker 2: in that there is no divine will involved in the creation,

639
00:39:13,920 --> 00:39:18,400
Speaker 2: so on the whole there's no like pure creator or

640
00:39:18,480 --> 00:39:22,080
Speaker 2: creatrix character. Though that's not to say there are no

641
00:39:22,280 --> 00:39:26,680
Speaker 2: divine acts of creation in Chinese mythology, but because there are,

642
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,160
Speaker 2: especially when you get into acts of say, you know,

643
00:39:29,239 --> 00:39:31,799
Speaker 2: the creation of humans and so forth. But as far

644
00:39:31,880 --> 00:39:36,279
Speaker 2: as the world or the universe, for the most part,

645
00:39:36,280 --> 00:39:39,120
Speaker 2: it seems to emerge without divine intent.

646
00:39:39,920 --> 00:39:44,359
Speaker 3: Right, So what you're describing is something we have seen

647
00:39:44,400 --> 00:39:46,480
Speaker 3: already in stuff we've talked about today, and we'll see

648
00:39:46,480 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 3: in other examples of a kind of mixed or undifferentiated

649
00:39:51,360 --> 00:39:54,959
Speaker 3: entropic state of matter, in this case not We've talked

650
00:39:54,960 --> 00:39:59,520
Speaker 3: already about waters being mixed and just all swirling together

651
00:39:59,560 --> 00:40:02,640
Speaker 3: and having having not been separated yet. But here is

652
00:40:02,680 --> 00:40:05,440
Speaker 3: a mixed form of vapor or some kind of cloud,

653
00:40:05,719 --> 00:40:09,040
Speaker 3: and that somehow the separation of it into these two

654
00:40:09,160 --> 00:40:15,239
Speaker 3: distinct and opposite qualities of yin and yang. That is

655
00:40:15,360 --> 00:40:18,799
Speaker 3: the initial act of creation, even though there's nobody to

656
00:40:18,960 --> 00:40:21,520
Speaker 3: do it. It's not like a god says, now these

657
00:40:21,520 --> 00:40:22,880
Speaker 3: two will be separate.

658
00:40:23,040 --> 00:40:26,640
Speaker 2: Right right. And it's also worth noting that, like you know,

659
00:40:26,680 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 2: all these different when we're talking about the creation of

660
00:40:28,560 --> 00:40:32,600
Speaker 2: the universe, that means something completely different to us when

661
00:40:32,640 --> 00:40:34,520
Speaker 2: we think about it, because we have a like a

662
00:40:34,640 --> 00:40:39,680
Speaker 2: NASA informed science education informed and probably like Star Trek

663
00:40:39,719 --> 00:40:42,640
Speaker 2: and Star Wars informed idea of what that means or

664
00:40:42,680 --> 00:40:45,520
Speaker 2: doctor who informed and so forth, you know, so we,

665
00:40:45,920 --> 00:40:49,759
Speaker 2: like you instantly turn to thinking about multiple planets and

666
00:40:50,200 --> 00:40:54,319
Speaker 2: possible other universes and multiverse and so forth. But like

667
00:40:54,360 --> 00:40:57,120
Speaker 2: for the Chinese, the ancient Chinese, for example, like they

668
00:40:57,120 --> 00:41:00,400
Speaker 2: were dealing with a single world and there was not

669
00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,120
Speaker 2: the there was no idea of there being additional worlds.

670
00:41:03,520 --> 00:41:05,759
Speaker 2: This is like a big I've seen it described as

671
00:41:05,800 --> 00:41:08,080
Speaker 2: like a big square world, and that was generally what

672
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,240
Speaker 2: was thought of as being existence. That was the world,

673
00:41:12,320 --> 00:41:15,480
Speaker 2: that was the universe and these other concepts didn't quite exist.

674
00:41:16,640 --> 00:41:20,240
Speaker 2: So coming back to Pangu here, the name literally means

675
00:41:20,280 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 2: something like the ancient coiled one, or, according according to

676
00:41:24,280 --> 00:41:30,040
Speaker 2: Anne Burrel, coiled antiquity, coiled interesting. And he is coiled

677
00:41:30,080 --> 00:41:34,760
Speaker 2: because he is coiled within another another thing that pops

678
00:41:34,800 --> 00:41:37,279
Speaker 2: up in a number of different creation stories, and that

679
00:41:37,400 --> 00:41:43,839
Speaker 2: is the cosmic egg. Hmm, okay, So I'll come back

680
00:41:43,880 --> 00:41:45,239
Speaker 2: to the cosmic egg in just a second, but I

681
00:41:45,280 --> 00:41:47,560
Speaker 2: want to turn to another source that I used, and

682
00:41:47,600 --> 00:41:51,320
Speaker 2: that's the Handbook of Chinese Mythology by yang An and Turner,

683
00:41:52,000 --> 00:41:53,560
Speaker 2: and they point out that one thing to keep in

684
00:41:53,560 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: mind about Pangu here is that actual Chinese literary mentions

685
00:41:58,880 --> 00:42:01,759
Speaker 2: of Pangu only seem to go back as far as

686
00:42:01,800 --> 00:42:04,600
Speaker 2: the Three Kingdoms era, so that's two twenty through two

687
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:08,080
Speaker 2: eighty CE, and there's a certain amount of back and

688
00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,680
Speaker 2: forth about whether it's completely of Han Chinese origin or

689
00:42:11,719 --> 00:42:16,080
Speaker 2: if it was imported from another another ethnic group or

690
00:42:16,120 --> 00:42:19,480
Speaker 2: another area. Anyway you slice it, though, it has a

691
00:42:19,480 --> 00:42:24,000
Speaker 2: great deal of sticking power, and again wasn't written down

692
00:42:24,200 --> 00:42:29,480
Speaker 2: until the third century CE, but certainly is based on

693
00:42:29,600 --> 00:42:33,680
Speaker 2: ideas that existed for a long time before that. So

694
00:42:34,000 --> 00:42:35,799
Speaker 2: let's talk about before we get back to the egg,

695
00:42:35,920 --> 00:42:40,040
Speaker 2: Let's talk about coiled Antiquity himself, Pangu. What does he

696
00:42:40,120 --> 00:42:44,040
Speaker 2: look like? Well, descriptions vary. Sometimes those descriptions take on

697
00:42:44,080 --> 00:42:48,200
Speaker 2: a kind of Chinese dragon or animal hybrid sort of vibe.

698
00:42:48,719 --> 00:42:52,280
Speaker 2: But when it comes to visual depictions, he's almost always

699
00:42:53,120 --> 00:42:57,600
Speaker 2: shown as a great, shaggy horned humanoid giant. So some

700
00:42:57,640 --> 00:43:00,640
Speaker 2: sort of a big shaggy giant with its generally like

701
00:43:00,680 --> 00:43:03,120
Speaker 2: a couple of bumps, a little couple of horns on

702
00:43:03,200 --> 00:43:04,600
Speaker 2: top of his head, not.

703
00:43:05,040 --> 00:43:08,800
Speaker 3: Like big horns, like rams horns, but little buds almost.

704
00:43:08,480 --> 00:43:11,520
Speaker 2: Yeah, almost like two cartoon bumps from being hit on

705
00:43:11,560 --> 00:43:14,640
Speaker 2: the head with a cartoon sledgehammer, that sort of thing. Yeah, Now,

706
00:43:14,880 --> 00:43:17,200
Speaker 2: I know you and I have seen these horns before,

707
00:43:17,400 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 2: and longtime listeners, I've heard us mention these as well.

708
00:43:21,280 --> 00:43:24,600
Speaker 2: Because this might bring to mine Old Shinong, the divine

709
00:43:24,600 --> 00:43:28,319
Speaker 2: farmer and culture hero who, among other things, tried out

710
00:43:28,320 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 2: all the plants to determine what was medicine, what was poison,

711
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:33,680
Speaker 2: and what was food and sampled. I believe the story

712
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:37,680
Speaker 2: says seventy poisons a day in this quest to understand.

713
00:43:37,440 --> 00:43:40,520
Speaker 3: Wow, that's got to be a record, yeah, but a

714
00:43:40,920 --> 00:43:41,920
Speaker 3: very important job.

715
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:45,120
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, yeah, so you know, very much a culture

716
00:43:45,160 --> 00:43:48,680
Speaker 2: hero culture bringer type character like here is a mythological

717
00:43:49,120 --> 00:43:52,319
Speaker 2: entity that solved problems for us or passed on some

718
00:43:52,360 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: sort of knowledge or gave knowledge to us that it

719
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:57,719
Speaker 2: was in the stronghold of the gods, that sort of thing.

720
00:43:58,280 --> 00:44:01,560
Speaker 3: But Chinong is also depict with horns. It has some

721
00:44:01,640 --> 00:44:02,920
Speaker 3: kind of bovine quality.

722
00:44:03,360 --> 00:44:05,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, and that seems to be the key. He's he's

723
00:44:05,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: tied to the ox and or the water buffalo, and

724
00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:13,160
Speaker 2: it's this has to do with his association with that animal,

725
00:44:14,760 --> 00:44:17,960
Speaker 2: and that's why he has oftentimes depicted as having horns.

726
00:44:18,719 --> 00:44:23,400
Speaker 2: Now coming back to Pongu here. According to Yang'n and Turner,

727
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:27,640
Speaker 2: this use of horns, or this appearance of horns may

728
00:44:27,640 --> 00:44:31,400
Speaker 2: be connected to Chinese myths that humans all used to

729
00:44:31,440 --> 00:44:34,680
Speaker 2: have a horn or horns, which they used in hunting,

730
00:44:35,440 --> 00:44:38,920
Speaker 2: and they would weaken or loosen as humans approach death.

731
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: As this happened, however, workers would realize, Hey, I'm starting

732
00:44:45,520 --> 00:44:47,839
Speaker 2: to die. My horns or my horn or horns are

733
00:44:47,840 --> 00:44:50,560
Speaker 2: getting loose. I'm just going to go over here and

734
00:44:50,560 --> 00:44:53,279
Speaker 2: not work anymore, and just wait for death. And the

735
00:44:53,320 --> 00:44:56,520
Speaker 2: God of Heaven wasn't crazy about this development and was like, Okay,

736
00:44:56,560 --> 00:45:00,520
Speaker 2: we're canceling horns. It's making it's making the humans give

737
00:45:00,600 --> 00:45:02,600
Speaker 2: up hope and or not work all that hard. So

738
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:03,919
Speaker 2: horns are confiscated.

739
00:45:04,120 --> 00:45:06,680
Speaker 3: No more horns because people were slacking on Fridays.

740
00:45:06,920 --> 00:45:13,239
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, wow. Now, incidentally, to bring things back to

741
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,799
Speaker 2: Judeo Christian traditions, or certainly, I guess more appropriately to

742
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,560
Speaker 2: bring it back to early Christian and onward traditions, and

743
00:45:20,600 --> 00:45:25,760
Speaker 2: in the Middle Ages you have depictions of Moses with horns,

744
00:45:26,400 --> 00:45:29,000
Speaker 2: similar horns, and this actually does show up in some

745
00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:33,600
Speaker 2: Chinese depictions of Moses. There at least used to be

746
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:36,839
Speaker 2: an example of this at the met in New York.

747
00:45:37,440 --> 00:45:38,840
Speaker 2: I didn't notice the last time I was there, but

748
00:45:38,840 --> 00:45:40,600
Speaker 2: it may not have been in that section long enough.

749
00:45:40,960 --> 00:45:45,480
Speaker 2: But this generally is attributed to This idea that Moses

750
00:45:45,520 --> 00:45:49,319
Speaker 2: had horns is generally attributed to a mistranslation of a

751
00:45:49,360 --> 00:45:53,880
Speaker 2: Hebrew term in Jerome's Latin Vulgate Bible and then reflected

752
00:45:54,000 --> 00:45:56,759
Speaker 2: in European works of visual art up to the age

753
00:45:56,800 --> 00:46:01,480
Speaker 2: of Michaelangelo. So you know, it would seem to be

754
00:46:01,520 --> 00:46:04,759
Speaker 2: more of a connection to European traditions as far as

755
00:46:04,800 --> 00:46:08,960
Speaker 2: Moses goes, has nothing to do with the idea that

756
00:46:09,040 --> 00:46:12,440
Speaker 2: humans used to have horns or anything like that. But

757
00:46:12,719 --> 00:46:14,920
Speaker 2: I did run across. I was looking into this a

758
00:46:14,920 --> 00:46:16,600
Speaker 2: little bit more to see there's something I didn't know

759
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,600
Speaker 2: about or had missed, and I ran across a paper

760
00:46:19,719 --> 00:46:23,719
Speaker 2: in the Eurasian Journal of Anthropology from twenty twenty four

761
00:46:25,000 --> 00:46:27,800
Speaker 2: talking about the idea of Moses having horns and certainly

762
00:46:27,880 --> 00:46:32,360
Speaker 2: acknowledging that it's connected to this mistranslation issue. But it

763
00:46:32,400 --> 00:46:35,439
Speaker 2: was by an individual by Frank fan or Frank Fahn,

764
00:46:35,480 --> 00:46:38,799
Speaker 2: I'm not sure which it is, but he presents a

765
00:46:39,040 --> 00:46:45,040
Speaker 2: possible connection in these depictions to actual cranial deformities due

766
00:46:45,040 --> 00:46:51,000
Speaker 2: to thallacimia, an inherited blood disorder, and the idea here

767
00:46:51,080 --> 00:46:56,719
Speaker 2: is that it's tied to the idea that this illness

768
00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: basically creates certain protection against malaria infection, and therefore there

769
00:47:03,760 --> 00:47:07,839
Speaker 2: would be like a survival advantage in having it, so

770
00:47:07,920 --> 00:47:10,760
Speaker 2: you might have used used to have had more people

771
00:47:10,800 --> 00:47:15,120
Speaker 2: with horns, or at least things that looked like horns

772
00:47:15,120 --> 00:47:19,480
Speaker 2: that were just cranial deformations. Hopefully, I'm not misrepresenting any

773
00:47:19,520 --> 00:47:22,680
Speaker 2: of this, this scholarship, but it's an interesting idea. I'm

774
00:47:22,719 --> 00:47:24,640
Speaker 2: not sure how much I'm willing to bet on it,

775
00:47:25,320 --> 00:47:28,840
Speaker 2: but I always love a paper that kind of says, Okay,

776
00:47:28,880 --> 00:47:31,160
Speaker 2: this is this is clearly what the case is. But

777
00:47:31,760 --> 00:47:34,719
Speaker 2: what if it were this? And so here's an here's

778
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:38,239
Speaker 2: an alternate route, an alternate road that you know, we

779
00:47:38,280 --> 00:47:42,560
Speaker 2: can all agree might not be as a reasonable hypothesis,

780
00:47:43,160 --> 00:47:46,560
Speaker 2: but certainly we can stack up some some arguments why

781
00:47:46,600 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 2: it could potentially be the case.

782
00:47:48,400 --> 00:47:52,720
Speaker 3: Right does not. This hypothesis does not satisfy Oakham's razor,

783
00:47:52,800 --> 00:47:54,399
Speaker 3: but is interesting at least.

784
00:47:54,640 --> 00:48:00,399
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, so at any rate, Pungu has horns, and

785
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:03,560
Speaker 2: again he's the ancient coiled one, and he's coiled within

786
00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:08,640
Speaker 2: the primordial or cosmic egg, which itself has coalesced out

787
00:48:08,640 --> 00:48:13,400
Speaker 2: of the formless vapor. So nobody made the egg, nothing

788
00:48:13,719 --> 00:48:16,480
Speaker 2: laid the egg. The egg has just formed out of

789
00:48:16,520 --> 00:48:20,680
Speaker 2: the vapor that pre existed everything. And again this is

790
00:48:20,680 --> 00:48:24,320
Speaker 2: a common motif for cosmic egg. But Pongu is inside

791
00:48:24,400 --> 00:48:28,480
Speaker 2: the cosmic egg, coiled within the egg of chaos. And

792
00:48:28,520 --> 00:48:31,320
Speaker 2: while he is in there, the complimentary opposing forces of

793
00:48:31,400 --> 00:48:34,919
Speaker 2: yin and yang are separating within the egg until one day,

794
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:40,560
Speaker 2: after eighteen thousand years, according to this story, for uncertain

795
00:48:40,600 --> 00:48:44,399
Speaker 2: reasons or no reason at all, the egg hatches. Now, Joe,

796
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:47,360
Speaker 2: have you ever separated an egg for a recipe? I

797
00:48:47,400 --> 00:48:52,720
Speaker 2: assume you have. Let's talk about this because this becomes

798
00:48:52,760 --> 00:48:55,480
Speaker 2: the primary metaphor for understanding the form and function of

799
00:48:55,480 --> 00:48:58,000
Speaker 2: the universe in this story. Do you have a preferred

800
00:48:58,080 --> 00:49:00,600
Speaker 2: method for separating an egg.

801
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:03,719
Speaker 3: I don't know what the term for this is, but

802
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,239
Speaker 3: I just fingers. You dump it into your fingers, and

803
00:49:07,280 --> 00:49:09,759
Speaker 3: you kind of hold them slightly apart from each other

804
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:11,839
Speaker 3: and allow the white to slip through, but you don't

805
00:49:11,920 --> 00:49:14,560
Speaker 3: let the yolk go through, and you kind of flex

806
00:49:14,600 --> 00:49:17,000
Speaker 3: them and press them together until you have sort of

807
00:49:17,040 --> 00:49:20,560
Speaker 3: cut the white off from the yolk. That that's what

808
00:49:20,600 --> 00:49:22,520
Speaker 3: I usually do if I need to separate them. And

809
00:49:22,520 --> 00:49:26,520
Speaker 3: the problem I have more often is not with separating

810
00:49:26,520 --> 00:49:28,720
Speaker 3: eggs and yolks. I don't do that all that often.

811
00:49:28,800 --> 00:49:31,479
Speaker 3: It's when I'm trying to make eggs and I crack

812
00:49:31,560 --> 00:49:33,480
Speaker 3: the egg and break the yolk on the shell. I

813
00:49:33,520 --> 00:49:33,960
Speaker 3: hate that.

814
00:49:34,719 --> 00:49:38,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's always that happens to me when I'm like

815
00:49:38,360 --> 00:49:41,800
Speaker 2: frying eggs for the family, and it always irks me

816
00:49:41,840 --> 00:49:44,320
Speaker 2: because I know that certain members of the family really

817
00:49:44,400 --> 00:49:47,759
Speaker 2: like like a jammy egg, and once you've done that,

818
00:49:47,800 --> 00:49:49,680
Speaker 2: it's like the egg's not gonna You're not gonna get

819
00:49:49,680 --> 00:49:50,600
Speaker 2: a jammy egg out of that.

820
00:49:50,719 --> 00:49:53,560
Speaker 3: Well, for me, it's just always like, Okay, I'm making

821
00:49:53,600 --> 00:49:56,080
Speaker 3: poached eggs or I'm making fried eggs, and you know,

822
00:49:56,200 --> 00:49:58,640
Speaker 3: I break a couple of yolks while I'm getting them out,

823
00:49:58,640 --> 00:49:59,759
Speaker 3: so I'm like, well, I guess I got to make

824
00:49:59,760 --> 00:50:01,760
Speaker 3: scre eggs too. I'll do that when I'm done.

825
00:50:04,360 --> 00:50:06,920
Speaker 2: We used to have these little earth or maybe a

826
00:50:06,920 --> 00:50:09,759
Speaker 2: couple of these. We have these earthenware egg separators with

827
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:13,400
Speaker 2: like a little face and a mouth where you would

828
00:50:13,600 --> 00:50:15,799
Speaker 2: supposedly put the egg in there and be able to

829
00:50:15,880 --> 00:50:19,520
Speaker 2: pour it and then just the white would come out

830
00:50:19,520 --> 00:50:21,560
Speaker 2: and the yolk, I mean just the center of the

831
00:50:21,600 --> 00:50:23,759
Speaker 2: egg would stay in and the rest would come out.

832
00:50:24,200 --> 00:50:26,759
Speaker 2: I've never seen that, but my memory of that was

833
00:50:27,120 --> 00:50:29,360
Speaker 2: more of a neat idea as opposed to a practical

834
00:50:29,400 --> 00:50:32,320
Speaker 2: way of carrying it out. And then there's another version

835
00:50:32,360 --> 00:50:34,279
Speaker 2: where stuff comes out of the nose. I don't know.

836
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:37,040
Speaker 2: I haven't used that one. But yeah, most of the

837
00:50:37,080 --> 00:50:38,360
Speaker 2: time for me, it's like getting in there with a

838
00:50:38,400 --> 00:50:39,560
Speaker 2: spoon and then my fingers.

839
00:50:39,960 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 3: One quick kitchen trick, I do know. If you are trying,

840
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:45,680
Speaker 3: if you're trying to make poached eggs and you want

841
00:50:45,760 --> 00:50:48,920
Speaker 3: less of that wispy white that goes all through the water,

842
00:50:49,640 --> 00:50:52,080
Speaker 3: you just quickly put the egg in like a mesh

843
00:50:52,080 --> 00:50:55,240
Speaker 3: strainer before you poach it, and you kind of whisk

844
00:50:55,280 --> 00:50:56,840
Speaker 3: it around it or not whisk it, but you just

845
00:50:56,920 --> 00:50:58,960
Speaker 3: swish it around a little bit in the mesh strainer.

846
00:50:59,400 --> 00:51:01,560
Speaker 3: And what happened is the tight part of the white

847
00:51:01,560 --> 00:51:04,319
Speaker 3: will stick to the yoak, but the very watery part

848
00:51:04,360 --> 00:51:06,200
Speaker 3: of the white will go out through the bottom of

849
00:51:06,200 --> 00:51:08,359
Speaker 3: the strainer, and then when you put that in the water,

850
00:51:08,440 --> 00:51:11,320
Speaker 3: usually it holds together in a pretty tight, nice little ball.

851
00:51:11,640 --> 00:51:16,040
Speaker 2: Interesting, Okay, Well, Luckily for Pangu, he doesn't have to

852
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:18,759
Speaker 2: mess with most of that. So the egg hatches, he's

853
00:51:18,760 --> 00:51:23,520
Speaker 2: within the egg and like essentially the stuff of the

854
00:51:23,640 --> 00:51:27,520
Speaker 2: universe is all around him. But luckily gravity is coming

855
00:51:27,560 --> 00:51:33,160
Speaker 2: into play, so murkier, heavier yen is sinking down while

856
00:51:33,160 --> 00:51:37,600
Speaker 2: that airy, lighter yang is rising up. So the yen

857
00:51:38,640 --> 00:51:42,160
Speaker 2: sort of falls down and becomes Earth, and Yang rises

858
00:51:42,239 --> 00:51:45,680
Speaker 2: up and becomes sky. Okay, and then here's Pogu in

859
00:51:45,680 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 2: the middle of this. And by being in the middle

860
00:51:49,239 --> 00:51:52,040
Speaker 2: of this, he's he's in an interesting position because he's

861
00:51:52,120 --> 00:51:54,399
Speaker 2: kind of part of both. He's not you know, there's

862
00:51:54,600 --> 00:51:57,960
Speaker 2: there's En and Yang with him within him. He's he's

863
00:51:58,040 --> 00:52:00,520
Speaker 2: human in his own way as well. He's not really

864
00:52:00,560 --> 00:52:03,359
Speaker 2: a human, but he's kind of like he's a humanoid being.

865
00:52:04,560 --> 00:52:08,919
Speaker 2: And in some versions of the tale, he like finalizes

866
00:52:08,960 --> 00:52:11,600
Speaker 2: the separation of Earth and Sky with an axe or

867
00:52:11,680 --> 00:52:17,520
Speaker 2: some other tool. What does well, that's that's a difficult question.

868
00:52:18,360 --> 00:52:23,560
Speaker 2: I want to come back to that. In other versions,

869
00:52:24,000 --> 00:52:26,719
Speaker 2: to put his role is really to prevent the two

870
00:52:26,800 --> 00:52:30,719
Speaker 2: from merging together again. So you know, he may not

871
00:52:30,760 --> 00:52:33,759
Speaker 2: have had a role in actually separating the two again.

872
00:52:33,840 --> 00:52:36,640
Speaker 2: Sometimes he does, but then he has this additional role

873
00:52:36,680 --> 00:52:40,080
Speaker 2: of like keeping them from coming back together, and so

874
00:52:40,239 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: he ends up taking on the you know, almost like

875
00:52:42,880 --> 00:52:46,759
Speaker 2: an Atlas roll, holding them, not holding the sky up,

876
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: but holding the Sky and Earth apart from each other

877
00:52:49,640 --> 00:52:54,200
Speaker 2: to prevent reconciliation into the universe's prior state. So it's

878
00:52:54,200 --> 00:52:56,400
Speaker 2: not just that the sky might come down, it's just

879
00:52:56,800 --> 00:52:59,000
Speaker 2: Earth and sky, Yin and Yang might come back together,

880
00:52:59,120 --> 00:53:01,600
Speaker 2: become one, and then that's that's you know, it's kind

881
00:53:01,640 --> 00:53:03,160
Speaker 2: of like the end of the universe. You know.

882
00:53:03,520 --> 00:53:06,719
Speaker 3: Oh, but that's kind of almost again, I'm not I'm

883
00:53:06,760 --> 00:53:09,680
Speaker 3: not saying this was like pressions about physics, but just

884
00:53:09,800 --> 00:53:13,600
Speaker 3: by happy coincidence, this is uh, prefiguring the idea that

885
00:53:13,640 --> 00:53:16,960
Speaker 3: gravity is actually not just attraction toward the ground or

886
00:53:16,960 --> 00:53:19,160
Speaker 3: towards the center of the Earth, but the mutual attraction

887
00:53:19,280 --> 00:53:20,399
Speaker 3: of all things to each other.

888
00:53:20,920 --> 00:53:22,400
Speaker 2: Yeah. I think one of the things to keep in

889
00:53:22,400 --> 00:53:25,839
Speaker 2: mind in all of this, especially in discussing cases where

890
00:53:25,880 --> 00:53:28,719
Speaker 2: there's something about it that feels like it lines up

891
00:53:28,760 --> 00:53:32,680
Speaker 2: with our scientific understanding of the universe, is that all

892
00:53:32,719 --> 00:53:35,319
Speaker 2: these these ancient people, you know, they a they thought

893
00:53:35,360 --> 00:53:36,799
Speaker 2: long and hard about all of this in one way

894
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,360
Speaker 2: or another, you know, creativity and creatively or you know,

895
00:53:40,480 --> 00:53:43,920
Speaker 2: or philosophically. And then also they lived in this universe.

896
00:53:43,960 --> 00:53:47,040
Speaker 2: So they lived in a universe where emergence occurs, where

897
00:53:47,080 --> 00:53:51,280
Speaker 2: gravity exists. Uh, you know, they they see complex systems

898
00:53:51,320 --> 00:53:53,680
Speaker 2: all around them, They see how these things work. They

899
00:53:53,760 --> 00:53:57,400
Speaker 2: see they see order coming out of chaos and chaos,

900
00:53:58,440 --> 00:54:01,120
Speaker 2: you know, coming out of order in the world around them,

901
00:54:01,160 --> 00:54:03,799
Speaker 2: and so they have all of this evidence in their

902
00:54:03,800 --> 00:54:07,640
Speaker 2: perceptions of reality that are a part of the larger universe,

903
00:54:07,680 --> 00:54:11,680
Speaker 2: and therefore it factors into their models of the larger universe.

904
00:54:11,719 --> 00:54:13,280
Speaker 2: And that makes you know, complete sense.

905
00:54:13,880 --> 00:54:16,600
Speaker 3: That's certainly true. As we often emphasize on the show,

906
00:54:16,640 --> 00:54:19,839
Speaker 3: I think one of the biggest mistakes people make when

907
00:54:19,920 --> 00:54:22,319
Speaker 3: thinking about the ancient past is for some reason, just

908
00:54:22,440 --> 00:54:26,480
Speaker 3: assuming that the people long ago were dumb or you know,

909
00:54:26,560 --> 00:54:29,560
Speaker 3: that they couldn't figure things out. Obviously, we know a

910
00:54:29,600 --> 00:54:31,359
Speaker 3: lot of things that they didn't know a back then.

911
00:54:31,400 --> 00:54:33,279
Speaker 3: We have a lot of tools they didn't have back then.

912
00:54:33,800 --> 00:54:36,800
Speaker 3: But based on the things they had, you know, people

913
00:54:36,840 --> 00:54:39,120
Speaker 3: have always been smart. People have always been able to

914
00:54:39,160 --> 00:54:42,360
Speaker 3: figure things out. I mean, I'm kind of doubtful that

915
00:54:42,400 --> 00:54:46,759
Speaker 3: people in the ancient world actually figured out the like

916
00:54:46,880 --> 00:54:49,799
Speaker 3: the nature of gravity as the mutual attraction of all

917
00:54:49,880 --> 00:54:52,239
Speaker 3: mass to mass, but I guess you can't rule it out.

918
00:54:52,320 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's interesting. Certainly, Certainly people have always been

919
00:54:58,160 --> 00:55:00,319
Speaker 3: smart and have always been able to figure things out.

920
00:55:00,840 --> 00:55:04,000
Speaker 2: Yeah, And now coming back to Pangu and another way

921
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,960
Speaker 2: that he sort of ties into who you can compare

922
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:11,480
Speaker 2: him to Atlas Tales is of course, Atlas is all

923
00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:13,799
Speaker 2: about trying to get somebody else to take on this

924
00:55:14,560 --> 00:55:17,120
Speaker 2: task for him. Can someone else hold up the sky

925
00:55:17,200 --> 00:55:19,319
Speaker 2: wanting you know, run a quick errand that sort of thing.

926
00:55:19,520 --> 00:55:22,440
Speaker 3: Exactly, Yeah, Hercules, I got something to do, or let

927
00:55:22,480 --> 00:55:24,120
Speaker 3: me help you out. You just sold this for a second.

928
00:55:24,320 --> 00:55:26,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah. And so we see a bit of that

929
00:55:26,200 --> 00:55:29,080
Speaker 2: in some of the tellings of pangu in which he

930
00:55:29,160 --> 00:55:31,960
Speaker 2: molds an ox out of his own saliva and some

931
00:55:32,080 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 2: clay to help the separation to sort of do the

932
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:38,120
Speaker 2: work for him. And then in some of these stories

933
00:55:38,120 --> 00:55:40,719
Speaker 2: as well, he has to make a clay rooster as

934
00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,480
Speaker 2: well to help keep the ox alert at all times,

935
00:55:44,160 --> 00:55:47,640
Speaker 2: and with the ox going asleep and then waking up,

936
00:55:47,840 --> 00:55:49,960
Speaker 2: this ends up being a way of explaining earthquakes.

937
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,800
Speaker 3: Oh interesting. Yeah.

938
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:57,120
Speaker 2: Now there's another variation on the story that gets very

939
00:55:57,160 --> 00:56:00,320
Speaker 2: much into this idea of some sort of primordial being's

940
00:56:00,800 --> 00:56:05,080
Speaker 2: body dying and then becoming the world, because it's often

941
00:56:05,120 --> 00:56:08,520
Speaker 2: said that Pangoo does not live eternally, but dies and

942
00:56:08,560 --> 00:56:11,359
Speaker 2: part of his parts of his gigantic body become key

943
00:56:11,440 --> 00:56:16,640
Speaker 2: parts of the universe or the observable reality. So according

944
00:56:16,680 --> 00:56:19,640
Speaker 2: to different versions of the story. One eye becomes the sun,

945
00:56:19,719 --> 00:56:23,239
Speaker 2: the other becomes the moon. His voice becomes thunder, His

946
00:56:23,400 --> 00:56:26,480
Speaker 2: limbs and trunk become the forests become the four extremes

947
00:56:26,480 --> 00:56:29,600
Speaker 2: of the earth and the five mountains. His blood becomes

948
00:56:29,640 --> 00:56:32,880
Speaker 2: the rivers, his flesh becomes the fields and the soil.

949
00:56:33,280 --> 00:56:37,000
Speaker 2: His teeth and bones become rocks, His semen and marrow

950
00:56:37,160 --> 00:56:40,799
Speaker 2: become pearls and jade. His sweat becomes rain and dew,

951
00:56:41,400 --> 00:56:43,759
Speaker 2: and the insects that lived on his body become the

952
00:56:43,760 --> 00:56:46,680
Speaker 2: first humans. Though to be clear, this is not the

953
00:56:46,719 --> 00:56:52,440
Speaker 2: only human creation myth in Chinese mythology. Wow, And another

954
00:56:52,480 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: interesting thing here is Okay, you can say, okay, well

955
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:59,319
Speaker 2: Pango is dead then, but it's not. I don't know.

956
00:56:59,480 --> 00:57:01,319
Speaker 2: It seems like that might be the wrong way to

957
00:57:01,400 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: describe it. Again, there are different versions of the stories

958
00:57:04,640 --> 00:57:07,799
Speaker 2: concerning him. But also he is apparently still worshiped as

959
00:57:07,800 --> 00:57:11,560
Speaker 2: a god in certain parts of China, and so if

960
00:57:11,640 --> 00:57:13,760
Speaker 2: he is dead, it's not, you know, in a mortal

961
00:57:13,800 --> 00:57:17,560
Speaker 2: sense of the word, and certainly not in every tradition.

962
00:57:18,800 --> 00:57:21,960
Speaker 2: So yeah, I think the story of Pungo is fascinating

963
00:57:22,000 --> 00:57:24,520
Speaker 2: because you can easily detect the different sorts of creation

964
00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:27,600
Speaker 2: stories that are bound up in this figure. He's depicted

965
00:57:27,600 --> 00:57:31,320
Speaker 2: as a primordial being, as a world tree or pillar,

966
00:57:31,480 --> 00:57:33,959
Speaker 2: a decaying giant who becomes the earth, and more.

967
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,880
Speaker 3: That is really interesting. I was not familiar with this

968
00:57:36,960 --> 00:57:40,160
Speaker 3: story before, and I like this a lot. Can I

969
00:57:40,160 --> 00:57:43,280
Speaker 3: actually come back to two different things you've mentioned while

970
00:57:43,280 --> 00:57:45,720
Speaker 3: talking about this and something that connects them. So I

971
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,480
Speaker 3: want to come back to the acts, where you know

972
00:57:48,520 --> 00:57:51,640
Speaker 3: the question of where did Pangu's acts come from? That

973
00:57:51,720 --> 00:57:54,600
Speaker 3: he uses to do the separation at least in some

974
00:57:54,680 --> 00:57:58,800
Speaker 3: tellings of the Earth and Sky. This is something I

975
00:57:58,840 --> 00:58:01,640
Speaker 3: was thinking about talking about the beginning of the episode.

976
00:58:01,680 --> 00:58:04,800
Speaker 3: I didn't have time to develop it though, but it

977
00:58:04,800 --> 00:58:09,320
Speaker 3: it's a quality that I really enjoy about some creation

978
00:58:09,560 --> 00:58:13,800
Speaker 3: narratives that I was thinking about calling the Cain's wife factor.

979
00:58:14,840 --> 00:58:16,920
Speaker 3: Do you remember the story of Cain and Abel in

980
00:58:16,960 --> 00:58:20,840
Speaker 3: the Book of Genesis also so yes. The short summary

981
00:58:20,960 --> 00:58:23,560
Speaker 3: is that Cain and Abel are the first children of

982
00:58:23,560 --> 00:58:26,400
Speaker 3: Adam and Eve after Adam and Eve are expelled from

983
00:58:26,400 --> 00:58:29,320
Speaker 3: the garden, and the way the story is always understood

984
00:58:29,480 --> 00:58:31,440
Speaker 3: is that at this point these are the only people

985
00:58:31,440 --> 00:58:33,560
Speaker 3: on Earth. You know, at Adam and Eve are the

986
00:58:33,560 --> 00:58:36,120
Speaker 3: first humans. They were expelled from the garden of Eden.

987
00:58:36,560 --> 00:58:36,680
Speaker 2: Uh.

988
00:58:36,800 --> 00:58:39,120
Speaker 3: They start to have children. They have Cain and Abel,

989
00:58:39,480 --> 00:58:43,640
Speaker 3: and then Cain kills his brother Abel uh. And then

990
00:58:43,960 --> 00:58:46,800
Speaker 3: Cain is banished for this. He is sent away, so

991
00:58:46,840 --> 00:58:48,560
Speaker 3: it says he, you know, he goes out of the land,

992
00:58:49,000 --> 00:58:51,320
Speaker 3: and then we're told he wanders somewhere else, and then

993
00:58:51,360 --> 00:58:54,560
Speaker 3: he meets a woman and gets married. Now, of course,

994
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 3: the obvious question is where did Cain's wife come from?

995
00:58:57,840 --> 00:58:59,600
Speaker 3: Who is she supposed to be? She just kind of

996
00:58:59,600 --> 00:59:02,280
Speaker 3: appears out of nowhere. I thought these were the only people.

997
00:59:02,520 --> 00:59:06,720
Speaker 3: Where's she from? There have been over the years, I

998
00:59:06,760 --> 00:59:10,040
Speaker 3: don't know, kind of anti Christian activists or people who

999
00:59:10,080 --> 00:59:14,000
Speaker 3: are very critical of the Bible who use this as

1000
00:59:14,040 --> 00:59:17,040
Speaker 3: an example of like, look how stupid this story is,

1001
00:59:17,280 --> 00:59:21,040
Speaker 3: Like look how stupid it is that they forgot that

1002
00:59:21,120 --> 00:59:24,160
Speaker 3: these were the only characters and here's another character coming

1003
00:59:24,240 --> 00:59:27,000
Speaker 3: out of nowhere. I don't view it that way. I

1004
00:59:27,480 --> 00:59:30,360
Speaker 3: when I look at this, it instead seems to me

1005
00:59:30,600 --> 00:59:34,600
Speaker 3: to be evidence that this story is not intended to

1006
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:39,400
Speaker 3: be taken as a literal history of events and as

1007
00:59:39,440 --> 00:59:44,040
Speaker 3: a totalizing narrative of reality. It just signals to me

1008
00:59:44,280 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 3: that it is being told with a sense of lightness

1009
00:59:49,120 --> 00:59:53,840
Speaker 3: and understood creativity, that in the more in the original context,

1010
00:59:54,400 --> 00:59:57,880
Speaker 3: that the teller of the story and the audience would

1011
00:59:58,000 --> 01:00:01,680
Speaker 3: understand that the story is being told with a sense

1012
01:00:01,720 --> 01:00:05,400
Speaker 3: of freedom and creativity, and that there's a playfulness here.

1013
01:00:05,440 --> 01:00:07,760
Speaker 3: And so it is not meant to be taken as

1014
01:00:08,280 --> 01:00:11,800
Speaker 3: a literal historical recounting of the only people that ever

1015
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,520
Speaker 3: existed in the past and all that kind of thing.

1016
01:00:14,560 --> 01:00:18,160
Speaker 3: I mean, there may have been some sense that this

1017
01:00:18,360 --> 01:00:22,640
Speaker 3: is conveying some truth, maybe in a more metaphorical sense,

1018
01:00:22,640 --> 01:00:25,640
Speaker 3: about where people came from, But I don't know. I'm

1019
01:00:25,680 --> 01:00:28,520
Speaker 3: connecting it more to the idea that we were also

1020
01:00:28,600 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 3: talking about a few minutes ago about how I think

1021
01:00:32,080 --> 01:00:35,800
Speaker 3: people in the past were smart and like they they

1022
01:00:35,840 --> 01:00:39,720
Speaker 3: maybe not were always as literal minded as we tend

1023
01:00:39,760 --> 01:00:40,640
Speaker 3: to assume.

1024
01:00:40,320 --> 01:00:44,000
Speaker 2: They were, right, Yeah, or or certainly even as pedantic

1025
01:00:44,040 --> 01:00:47,040
Speaker 2: as we can be concerning some of these stories. Yeah.

1026
01:00:47,040 --> 01:00:49,120
Speaker 2: Where you know, if you if you seriously asked the

1027
01:00:49,200 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 2: question like, well, where did the acts come from, it's like, well,

1028
01:00:52,520 --> 01:00:55,760
Speaker 2: you know, it's just it's just part of the story exactly. Yeah,

1029
01:00:55,920 --> 01:00:59,240
Speaker 2: And so many of these creation stories, they do end

1030
01:00:59,320 --> 01:01:02,360
Speaker 2: up basing at least some part of it in human

1031
01:01:02,360 --> 01:01:06,480
Speaker 2: tool used, human crafting, because that's how we end up

1032
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:10,040
Speaker 2: understanding and shaping our understanding of creation, because we have

1033
01:01:10,080 --> 01:01:12,880
Speaker 2: to base it on human acts of creation, be that

1034
01:01:13,400 --> 01:01:16,520
Speaker 2: you know, molding something out of clay, chopping something with

1035
01:01:16,560 --> 01:01:19,520
Speaker 2: an axe, or you know, using the word processor of

1036
01:01:19,560 --> 01:01:23,200
Speaker 2: the gods, you know, turning a blank page into into copy.

1037
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:26,040
Speaker 2: I was thinking about that earlier. It's like when we

1038
01:01:26,080 --> 01:01:29,400
Speaker 2: create a document for our podcast, it's like, you know,

1039
01:01:29,440 --> 01:01:32,360
Speaker 2: it begins with nothing, just to blank white space.

1040
01:01:32,920 --> 01:01:35,560
Speaker 3: But then but that's actually not nothing, is it.

1041
01:01:35,560 --> 01:01:38,120
Speaker 2: It's not nothing? No, But then it also doesn't go

1042
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:41,680
Speaker 2: from you know, from you know, beginning to end super quickly.

1043
01:01:41,720 --> 01:01:44,280
Speaker 2: There are different phases of creation. Like in my case,

1044
01:01:44,360 --> 01:01:46,800
Speaker 2: I always apply some sort of a template, and that's

1045
01:01:46,800 --> 01:01:49,560
Speaker 2: the first act of creation, uh, you know, and then

1046
01:01:49,560 --> 01:01:52,000
Speaker 2: on the third day God began to fill in the

1047
01:01:52,040 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: template that sort of.

1048
01:01:53,480 --> 01:01:57,320
Speaker 3: Thing, and then one and then the gods began developing

1049
01:01:57,400 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 3: things that turned out to be completely useless wrong, you know,

1050
01:02:01,120 --> 01:02:03,520
Speaker 3: like un let's not okay, can't do that. I'm gonna

1051
01:02:03,520 --> 01:02:04,439
Speaker 3: shift to something else.

1052
01:02:04,720 --> 01:02:06,800
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, we'll actually come back to that idea and

1053
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:10,720
Speaker 2: some of our examples, Oh nice, the different drafts of creation.

1054
01:02:11,320 --> 01:02:13,920
Speaker 3: Yeah, but so anyway, Yeah, I wanted to make the

1055
01:02:13,920 --> 01:02:16,760
Speaker 3: connection between the acts and Kane's wife because I love

1056
01:02:16,840 --> 01:02:19,720
Speaker 3: these little details and I and I take a different

1057
01:02:19,800 --> 01:02:23,040
Speaker 3: view of what they mean than some of the most

1058
01:02:23,080 --> 01:02:27,320
Speaker 3: sort of myth critical people do, who think that this

1059
01:02:27,440 --> 01:02:30,200
Speaker 3: is evidence of a kind of sloppiness in the storytelling.

1060
01:02:30,240 --> 01:02:33,960
Speaker 3: I instead interpret it as a as a sign that

1061
01:02:34,000 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 3: we should understand these stories in a more light and

1062
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:43,120
Speaker 3: sophisticated way, and not that the original context was all literalism.

1063
01:02:42,920 --> 01:02:44,800
Speaker 2: Right right, Like, well, coming back to the idea of

1064
01:02:44,800 --> 01:02:47,120
Speaker 2: a cosmic egg, what laid the cosmic egg? That's the

1065
01:02:47,120 --> 01:02:49,080
Speaker 2: still a question. I mean that it does get into

1066
01:02:49,120 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 2: the whole egg and chicken thing, and you know that

1067
01:02:51,400 --> 01:02:54,080
Speaker 2: is a conundrum. But you know, think of it then,

1068
01:02:54,160 --> 01:02:58,760
Speaker 2: not as an organic egg. Think of it as enclosed substance,

1069
01:02:59,680 --> 01:03:13,280
Speaker 2: you know, and just go from there. Now, I do

1070
01:03:13,360 --> 01:03:15,280
Speaker 2: want to come back as we begin to reach the

1071
01:03:15,360 --> 01:03:17,520
Speaker 2: end of this episode, I want to come back again

1072
01:03:17,560 --> 01:03:19,960
Speaker 2: to what is the primary topic and play here what

1073
01:03:20,160 --> 01:03:24,280
Speaker 2: was the universe like prior to creation? And so we.

1074
01:03:24,680 --> 01:03:27,440
Speaker 3: Did talk about the vapor and the egg right.

1075
01:03:27,640 --> 01:03:29,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and so I have a little bit more on that.

1076
01:03:30,040 --> 01:03:34,760
Speaker 2: So in most Chinese traditions, the answer is, of course

1077
01:03:34,920 --> 01:03:39,880
Speaker 2: chaotic formlessness. This vapor a place before heaven and Earth

1078
01:03:40,280 --> 01:03:44,640
Speaker 2: with images but no form. I really love that description.

1079
01:03:45,200 --> 01:03:47,200
Speaker 2: How am I to interpret that? You know, it's like

1080
01:03:47,280 --> 01:03:51,040
Speaker 2: information but no mass. You know, I'm not sure, But

1081
01:03:51,320 --> 01:03:56,600
Speaker 2: as an Barreau comments, the state is rather similar to

1082
01:03:56,640 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 2: the you know, you could even compare this to the

1083
01:03:58,560 --> 01:04:02,600
Speaker 2: modern cosmological idea of the singularity. So everything is there,

1084
01:04:03,360 --> 01:04:05,760
Speaker 2: but it is not ordered in the sense that it

1085
01:04:05,800 --> 01:04:09,240
Speaker 2: is anything yet or not. It is not like the

1086
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:11,600
Speaker 2: world we know it but all but everything is there,

1087
01:04:11,960 --> 01:04:16,720
Speaker 2: it's just you know, it's contained in a different form. Yeah. Now,

1088
01:04:16,800 --> 01:04:21,240
Speaker 2: in Dallas cosmology, this undifferentiated and formless state is known

1089
01:04:21,240 --> 01:04:25,840
Speaker 2: as wuchi, the boundless emptiness, and it is the prime

1090
01:04:25,960 --> 01:04:29,600
Speaker 2: mol state of the taol the Tao. And I'm hoping

1091
01:04:29,640 --> 01:04:32,800
Speaker 2: that I'm pronouncing it correctly here wugi, because this is

1092
01:04:32,800 --> 01:04:34,880
Speaker 2: one of those things when you're dealing with the Chinese

1093
01:04:34,960 --> 01:04:39,080
Speaker 2: language if I use a slightly incorrect pronunciation that it

1094
01:04:39,120 --> 01:04:42,960
Speaker 2: means nonsense rather than limitless or boundlessness. It can also

1095
01:04:43,000 --> 01:04:45,120
Speaker 2: mean a type of chicken. It can means a stain,

1096
01:04:45,640 --> 01:04:48,200
Speaker 2: it can mean dancing skill, or it can mean to

1097
01:04:48,280 --> 01:04:52,600
Speaker 2: miss a plane, depending on exactly how it is being inflected.

1098
01:04:53,400 --> 01:04:55,880
Speaker 2: That's just you know the complexity of the language. But

1099
01:04:55,920 --> 01:05:00,400
Speaker 2: I believe it is bugi, So to whatever extent I

1100
01:05:00,440 --> 01:05:02,520
Speaker 2: actually hit that every time I say it, we'll see,

1101
01:05:02,520 --> 01:05:08,400
Speaker 2: but I am going to try and pronounce it correctly. Yeah, Ouji.

1102
01:05:08,640 --> 01:05:12,840
Speaker 2: So this state Wuji has the has, it has infinite potential,

1103
01:05:12,920 --> 01:05:17,720
Speaker 2: but is itself non being? And these concepts are also

1104
01:05:17,720 --> 01:05:22,120
Speaker 2: incorporated into Neo Confucism as well, And in this Wuji

1105
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:28,800
Speaker 2: becomes Taji, the supreme ultimate. So movement begins based on

1106
01:05:28,840 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 2: the dualities of Yin and Yang. However, there's plenty of

1107
01:05:32,120 --> 01:05:35,600
Speaker 2: room to argue and disagree over whether Wuji really becomes

1108
01:05:35,640 --> 01:05:37,880
Speaker 2: Taji or if there are just these are just two

1109
01:05:37,920 --> 01:05:40,880
Speaker 2: sides of the same thing. And you know, we can't

1110
01:05:40,880 --> 01:05:43,560
Speaker 2: really apply line or logic to it in that case.

1111
01:05:44,560 --> 01:05:47,440
Speaker 2: But yeah, the dow runs through all things. Yin and

1112
01:05:47,520 --> 01:05:51,400
Speaker 2: Yang are in constant flux, competing but unable to exist

1113
01:05:51,440 --> 01:05:55,320
Speaker 2: without each other. And if that's that churning nature, you know,

1114
01:05:55,360 --> 01:05:58,760
Speaker 2: often depict it visually, you know, iconically as a churning

1115
01:05:58,800 --> 01:06:02,160
Speaker 2: as a movement, if that movement is not taking place,

1116
01:06:02,480 --> 01:06:05,400
Speaker 2: if everything is just like a sterile constant, like that

1117
01:06:05,520 --> 01:06:08,800
Speaker 2: is that is the the primordial universe in this case,

1118
01:06:09,280 --> 01:06:12,760
Speaker 2: like it's it's like everything that makes our universe work.

1119
01:06:12,920 --> 01:06:16,160
Speaker 2: Everything that's a part of the you know, observable separation

1120
01:06:16,280 --> 01:06:19,640
Speaker 2: of things and entities and conflicting energies, like, none of

1121
01:06:19,640 --> 01:06:22,600
Speaker 2: that is in place. So it's almost you know, unfathomable

1122
01:06:22,760 --> 01:06:26,040
Speaker 2: in that respect. At any rate, it'll be be a

1123
01:06:26,040 --> 01:06:29,600
Speaker 2: lot of fun to get into some additional mythological models

1124
01:06:29,600 --> 01:06:32,240
Speaker 2: here and continue to discuss, like which of these various

1125
01:06:32,240 --> 01:06:36,000
Speaker 2: creation tropes do they seem to be exploring and using,

1126
01:06:36,880 --> 01:06:39,000
Speaker 2: What new ideas are they bringing to it that we

1127
01:06:39,000 --> 01:06:42,080
Speaker 2: haven't discussed in this series so far. We have some

1128
01:06:42,080 --> 01:06:45,960
Speaker 2: some exciting examples to discuss in the future.

1129
01:06:46,880 --> 01:06:49,360
Speaker 3: Totally. This may be one of those series we need to,

1130
01:06:50,160 --> 01:06:52,640
Speaker 3: I don't know, break up and revisit at different times.

1131
01:06:52,680 --> 01:06:55,600
Speaker 2: I think, yeah, this, in all likelihood, this may be

1132
01:06:55,640 --> 01:06:57,720
Speaker 2: one that we do a couple of episodes for and

1133
01:06:57,720 --> 01:06:59,440
Speaker 2: then we have to break and do some other content

1134
01:06:59,480 --> 01:07:02,440
Speaker 2: and then come back back again. So we'll see how

1135
01:07:02,440 --> 01:07:05,400
Speaker 2: it all plays out in the meantime, we would of

1136
01:07:05,400 --> 01:07:08,800
Speaker 2: course love to hear from all of you, because it's

1137
01:07:08,920 --> 01:07:11,479
Speaker 2: very likely that there's some great example that we haven't

1138
01:07:11,480 --> 01:07:13,920
Speaker 2: come across yet, or perhaps there's a great example we

1139
01:07:13,920 --> 01:07:15,800
Speaker 2: were thinking about covering and we just need a little

1140
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,440
Speaker 2: nudging to point us in the right direction, So write in.

1141
01:07:19,560 --> 01:07:22,560
Speaker 2: We would love to hear from you. Just a reminder

1142
01:07:22,600 --> 01:07:24,280
Speaker 2: to everyone out there, This Stuff to Blow Your Mind

1143
01:07:24,320 --> 01:07:26,840
Speaker 2: is primarily a science and culture podcast, with core episodes

1144
01:07:26,880 --> 01:07:29,840
Speaker 2: on Tuesdays and Thursdays. On Wednesdays we do a short

1145
01:07:29,840 --> 01:07:32,200
Speaker 2: form episode and then on Fridays we set aside most

1146
01:07:32,200 --> 01:07:34,280
Speaker 2: serious concerns, so just talk about a weird film on

1147
01:07:34,400 --> 01:07:35,560
Speaker 2: Weird House Cinema.

1148
01:07:35,760 --> 01:07:39,360
Speaker 3: Huge thanks as always to our excellent audio producer JJ Posway.

1149
01:07:39,560 --> 01:07:41,000
Speaker 3: If you would like to get in touch with us

1150
01:07:41,040 --> 01:07:43,640
Speaker 3: with feedback on this episode or any other, to suggest

1151
01:07:43,720 --> 01:07:45,600
Speaker 3: a topic for the future, or just to say hello,

1152
01:07:45,800 --> 01:07:48,360
Speaker 3: you can email us at contact Stuff to Blow your

1153
01:07:48,400 --> 01:07:56,760
Speaker 3: Mind dot com.

1154
01:07:56,880 --> 01:08:00,520
Speaker 1: Stuff to Blow Your Mind is production of iHeartRadio podcast

1155
01:08:00,640 --> 01:08:03,840
Speaker 1: my Heart Radio visit the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or

1156
01:08:03,840 --> 01:08:18,519
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to your favorite shows.