WEBVTT - Tiananmen and the Question of Democracy, Part 1 0:00:04.880 --> 0:00:08.000 Welcome to pick it up and here a podcast about 0:00:08.200 --> 0:00:13.640 something that did happen that sucked enormously. Um. I'm Christopher 0:00:13.640 --> 0:00:18.200 Wall I'm the host. Also with me is Garrison and Sophie. Hello. 0:00:18.720 --> 0:00:21.799 We just in the morning, just really starting off positive there. 0:00:22.640 --> 0:00:29.440 It's look, it's it's this episode in the next episode. 0:00:30.040 --> 0:00:31.600 I mean, I guess this episode kind of ends in 0:00:31.600 --> 0:00:35.320 a high note. But that's great to hear. I'm so happy. 0:00:36.240 --> 0:00:43.080 I totally believe you. It kind of does, all right. Yeah, 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:47.000 Sharene is also here. Hello, Hi, Sorry my fault, keep going, 0:00:47.080 --> 0:00:50.280 no worries. So this is this is the thirty third 0:00:50.280 --> 0:00:54.720 anniversary of the Caamon Square massacre. UM. Tomorrow's episode. I 0:00:54.720 --> 0:00:57.280 think we'll actually be going out on I guess the 0:00:57.360 --> 0:01:00.040 day that it started kind of starts like the it 0:01:00.240 --> 0:01:05.039 of like June three. Um, and okay, I'm curious what 0:01:05.160 --> 0:01:10.360 you choose, Like I don't know, like received like cultural 0:01:10.440 --> 0:01:13.920 memory of Channaman is because I don't know. I think 0:01:13.920 --> 0:01:15.880 I got a kind of weird one, like being from 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:19.720 a Chinese family, but as a white Canadian, I have 0:01:20.000 --> 0:01:26.200 zero amount of my knowledge about the tam Tannaman Square massacre. 0:01:26.680 --> 0:01:29.240 Not really about Tanneman. Uh, it's just Yeah, that is 0:01:29.240 --> 0:01:33.760 something I never never have really learned about. Yeah, I 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:40.319 know that it happened in That's that's the American lesson 0:01:40.440 --> 0:01:43.680 we got on the history of that massacre, that it 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:54.920 happened in nineteen really mediocre. Yeah, Okay, Well today and 0:01:55.000 --> 0:01:58.280 tomorrow we're gonna we're gonna go, well, we're gonna talk 0:01:59.240 --> 0:02:02.360 I think less about what happens there specifically and more 0:02:02.400 --> 0:02:06.720 about the sort of broader history that's in. But I 0:02:06.720 --> 0:02:09.080 guess let's start out so in sometimes there's there's really 0:02:09.120 --> 0:02:13.560 three tenements. Um, there's there's the student protests that's inside 0:02:13.600 --> 0:02:18.359 Tanement Square itself. There's this part of Beijing like around 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:20.240 the squares, like a bunch of blocks are taken over 0:02:20.280 --> 0:02:23.480 by workers. And then there's a bunch of protests in 0:02:23.520 --> 0:02:27.120 other cities. And unfortunately, we're not gonna be talking about 0:02:27.120 --> 0:02:30.480 the Protestant the other cities because like basically nothing is 0:02:30.520 --> 0:02:33.680 known about them other than that like they happened, but 0:02:33.880 --> 0:02:38.960 the people who would know aren't talking so for some 0:02:38.960 --> 0:02:46.360 somewhat obvious reasons. Um, yeah, and the students themselves, I 0:02:46.400 --> 0:02:49.880 think like the normal version of tianement is like these 0:02:49.919 --> 0:02:54.080 there's the students and they're like protomocracy protesters, right, but 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:58.320 they're way weirder than that. There's there's like this weird 0:02:58.360 --> 0:03:02.239 ideological grab bag thing going on. Um, they're they're they're 0:03:02.600 --> 0:03:07.079 basically what they're piste off about is that this thing 0:03:07.160 --> 0:03:09.600 is called the reform and opening, like isn't going fast 0:03:09.680 --> 0:03:11.440 enough and we should talk about what that sort of 0:03:11.800 --> 0:03:14.959 is so perform and opening is. It's this period in 0:03:15.040 --> 0:03:18.920 China and sort of the eighties and songs of the nineties. Um. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:21.240 And on the one hand, you have these sort of 0:03:21.280 --> 0:03:24.840 steps to like ease restrictions on speech and like rehability 0:03:24.880 --> 0:03:29.040 to intellectuals and like allow for broader public discourse. But 0:03:29.160 --> 0:03:30.840 the other half of it is that like they're they're 0:03:30.880 --> 0:03:32.920 being they're basically they're bringing markets back in China, right, 0:03:33.840 --> 0:03:37.760 And this this is a ship show in a lot 0:03:37.760 --> 0:03:39.880 of ways. If you want to hear about like the 0:03:39.960 --> 0:03:43.280 CCP reinventing debt p and age in about five years, Um, 0:03:43.400 --> 0:03:45.680 go listen to my Baschard's episode and the poison Milk scandal. 0:03:45.800 --> 0:03:49.480 It's a it's a trip. But on the other hand, 0:03:49.520 --> 0:03:52.360 you have you know, so you have kind of like 0:03:52.520 --> 0:03:55.440 opening up, right, you have just more discourse. You're they're 0:03:55.480 --> 0:03:59.680 not pursue intellectuals again, sort of that there, they're they're 0:03:59.720 --> 0:04:03.280 they're persecuting the intellectuals that they had persecuted. Um. But 0:04:03.320 --> 0:04:05.360 on the other hand, you get this absolutely draconian sort 0:04:05.400 --> 0:04:07.400 of like a set of crackdowns in the social sphere. 0:04:07.400 --> 0:04:10.480 You have the one child policy, you have this like 0:04:11.080 --> 0:04:14.480 really powerful tightening of one man rule in the factory, 0:04:14.760 --> 0:04:17.320 and you have the sort of the destruction of these 0:04:18.520 --> 0:04:20.520 for what we'll get into this more later, but like 0:04:20.560 --> 0:04:23.880 the the sort of limited decision making capacity that workers 0:04:23.880 --> 0:04:27.799 have had in the factories, um, just this sort of dismantled. 0:04:27.800 --> 0:04:29.520 And so you see these sort of gaps beginning to 0:04:29.560 --> 0:04:32.120 form here, right Like, on the one hand, you have 0:04:32.160 --> 0:04:34.120 these students who want market reforms to go faster, and 0:04:34.160 --> 0:04:36.080 they want more freedom of speech, They like kind of 0:04:36.080 --> 0:04:38.599 want democracy, but like mostly what they want is to 0:04:38.640 --> 0:04:40.320 be in charge of the party so they can crush 0:04:40.400 --> 0:04:42.480 the sort of like bureaucracy they see as holding market 0:04:42.520 --> 0:04:47.000 reforms back. And it's worth noting that like a lot 0:04:47.000 --> 0:04:49.440 of these students are involved in what becomes known as 0:04:49.480 --> 0:04:53.040 neo authoritarianism, which is the sort of ideology that holds 0:04:53.040 --> 0:04:55.240 that like the strong central party should take full control 0:04:55.240 --> 0:04:57.600 of society and destroying the factions in the bureaucracy and 0:04:57.640 --> 0:04:59.840 so you know, and that that's how you can lead 0:04:59.880 --> 0:05:03.000 to element and this stuff like that stuff like ne 0:05:03.040 --> 0:05:05.640 authoritarianism survives the protests and goes on to become like 0:05:06.279 --> 0:05:09.039 a pretty major faction in the CCP itself, and then 0:05:09.080 --> 0:05:12.200 I us in two thousand's and you know, this is 0:05:12.240 --> 0:05:15.919 this is where things just get weird, right, Um, the 0:05:15.960 --> 0:05:19.720 student movement itself is very hierarchical, and it gets to 0:05:19.760 --> 0:05:22.880 the point where like but by by by the end 0:05:22.880 --> 0:05:27.680 of the student movement, there these the student leaders are 0:05:27.680 --> 0:05:30.479 like kidnapping each other over like who has control of 0:05:30.480 --> 0:05:35.200 the microphones, and like the stages in the square it is. 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:41.600 It is extremely bizarre. And you know, and in terms 0:05:41.600 --> 0:05:44.000 of like the protests actually like if the what their 0:05:44.040 --> 0:05:45.760 torches are trying to do is you're trying to influence 0:05:45.760 --> 0:05:49.320 this factional fight inside the CCP over like the speed 0:05:49.360 --> 0:05:53.080 at which reformers are going to go, and this it 0:05:53.120 --> 0:05:56.120 doesn't work. It's like stunningly ineffectual. The guy they're trying 0:05:56.160 --> 0:05:58.800 to defend like winds up getting outed and put in 0:05:58.839 --> 0:06:00.000 her house to rest of the rest of his life 0:06:00.000 --> 0:06:03.720 if so. Okay, so those are the student protesters. But 0:06:05.200 --> 0:06:06.920 the part and that that the student protesters are the 0:06:06.960 --> 0:06:09.200 part of this that like everyone knows, partly because some 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:12.000 of those people escaped to Hong Kong and you know, 0:06:12.000 --> 0:06:14.720 they're they're very influential sort of shaping the memory there. 0:06:15.680 --> 0:06:18.640 But there's also the workers that I mentioned earlier, and 0:06:19.600 --> 0:06:23.000 the students basically hate the workers, um for for for 0:06:23.080 --> 0:06:24.680 most of the time this protest is going on, and 0:06:24.680 --> 0:06:27.520 this is the this is months, right, they literally will 0:06:27.680 --> 0:06:29.800 they will not let any of the workers go into 0:06:29.800 --> 0:06:32.800 the into tenement square like that they have. They have 0:06:32.880 --> 0:06:34.640 this whole system and like in order to get into 0:06:34.680 --> 0:06:37.760 like increasing like like closer to the center of the square, 0:06:37.760 --> 0:06:38.880 you have to be a student, and then you need 0:06:38.880 --> 0:06:40.000 to get to the center of the squere you have 0:06:40.040 --> 0:06:42.440 to be like a member of the leadership. It's very weird, 0:06:43.680 --> 0:06:45.279 and you know, and like one of the things that 0:06:45.279 --> 0:06:46.560 workers are trying to do is they want to carry 0:06:46.560 --> 0:06:48.000 out a general strike, and the students are like, no, 0:06:48.080 --> 0:06:51.680 absolutely not, do not do a general strike because largely 0:06:51.800 --> 0:06:53.839 because okay, so if these people start doing a general strike, 0:06:53.880 --> 0:06:56.920 like that's not something that's not under our control. And 0:06:57.200 --> 0:06:59.600 you know, okay, So this raises the question like if 0:06:59.640 --> 0:07:01.760 the relate between the students who are at tenement and 0:07:01.800 --> 0:07:03.800 the workers at chenemen are this bad, like why are 0:07:03.800 --> 0:07:07.000 the workers even there? Um? And And there's a few 0:07:07.000 --> 0:07:08.960 answers to this question that the sort of the simplest 0:07:08.960 --> 0:07:12.000 and most immediate one is that like the workers are 0:07:12.640 --> 0:07:15.360 initially they come out because they're pissed. They see how 0:07:15.360 --> 0:07:18.880 badly like the cops in sort of like the party 0:07:18.960 --> 0:07:21.840 is is treating the students in the square, so they 0:07:21.920 --> 0:07:24.120 get mad. But but but there's there's other stuff going 0:07:24.160 --> 0:07:29.760 on to the late eighties is the ladies in China 0:07:29.840 --> 0:07:32.560 is sort of a mess economically that there's rampant inflation 0:07:32.760 --> 0:07:36.360 and the sort of rapid increase in prices is a 0:07:36.480 --> 0:07:38.840 threat to you know, the sort of like cheap supply grain, 0:07:38.880 --> 0:07:42.000 which is like the sort of main subsidy that if 0:07:42.000 --> 0:07:44.640 you're an urban worker that you get. And meanwhile, you know, 0:07:44.680 --> 0:07:46.480 you have marketization happening, so at the same time that 0:07:46.520 --> 0:07:49.080 every the prices are increasing for everyone and they can't 0:07:49.080 --> 0:07:51.680 get access the stuff that they need. You have just 0:07:51.720 --> 0:07:55.160 like CCP princelings like racing down the street and imputed 0:07:55.160 --> 0:07:57.560 sports cars and like these are like the only these 0:07:57.560 --> 0:08:00.520 are the only cars, right like people people I don't know, 0:08:00.560 --> 0:08:02.600 like like people are starting to get bicycles and mass 0:08:02.600 --> 0:08:04.800 sort of in this period. But then you know, I 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.200 was like, hey, here's here's this like party boss guy 0:08:07.280 --> 0:08:09.720 who was a sports car. They're like spending years salaries 0:08:09.760 --> 0:08:11.960 like gambling at race tracks, and people just get piste off. 0:08:12.720 --> 0:08:16.160 So they they start organizing. And I'm going to read 0:08:16.280 --> 0:08:21.119 from a section of a piece by Rhans Jong about 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:24.960 what what they were doing. Um during the struggle to 0:08:25.000 --> 0:08:28.040 obstruct the military, workers started to realize the power of 0:08:28.040 --> 0:08:31.680 their spontaneous organization and action. This was self liberation on 0:08:31.720 --> 0:08:34.839 an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self organization and 0:08:34.960 --> 0:08:39.640 suit the Beijing Works Autonomous Federations. Membership grew exponentially in 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.960 other workers organizations both within and across workplaces mushrooms. The 0:08:44.000 --> 0:08:48.120 development of organizations led to a radicalization of action. Workers 0:08:48.160 --> 0:08:51.600 started organizing self armed quasi militias such as picket cores 0:08:51.640 --> 0:08:54.480 and Dared or Die brigades to monitor and broadcast the 0:08:54.520 --> 0:08:58.360 military's whereabouts. These quasi militias were also responsible for maintaining 0:08:58.360 --> 0:09:00.480 public order, so as not to provide any pretext for 0:09:00.520 --> 0:09:03.839 military intervention. In a sense, Beijing became a city was 0:09:03.880 --> 0:09:07.079 self managed by workers. It was reminiscent of petrograds self 0:09:07.080 --> 0:09:10.200 farm workers organized in the Soviets in the months between 0:09:10.240 --> 0:09:14.559 Russia's February and October revolutions. At the same time, Beijing 0:09:14.559 --> 0:09:17.960 workers built many more barricades and fortifications and on the 0:09:18.000 --> 0:09:21.719 street in many factories that organized strikes and slowdowns. A 0:09:21.760 --> 0:09:24.000 possible general strike was put on the table as well. 0:09:24.400 --> 0:09:27.000 Many workers started to build connections between factories prepare for 0:09:27.000 --> 0:09:30.840 a general strike. And yeah, like this is the part 0:09:30.840 --> 0:09:32.600 of it that like people don't talk about because it 0:09:32.640 --> 0:09:34.360 wasn't in the square. And I mean the other part, 0:09:34.440 --> 0:09:36.400 the other faction, like the fact that that's going on 0:09:36.440 --> 0:09:39.720 here is that like so the press Corps is like 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:42.559 sitting in the square, and this is why Kianna ministers 0:09:42.559 --> 0:09:44.280 this sort is like this is massive spectacle, right because 0:09:44.280 --> 0:09:46.520 all of this, everything that's happening here inside the square 0:09:46.559 --> 0:09:48.400 was happening like in front of the entire Western Press 0:09:48.440 --> 0:09:50.440 Court and like people are like, you know, like people 0:09:50.480 --> 0:09:53.200 are just like pointing cameras at their window, right, and 0:09:55.760 --> 0:09:59.960 you know, but on the other hand, the people out 0:10:00.080 --> 0:10:02.680 side of the square, the workers outside of the square 0:10:02.679 --> 0:10:04.760 are the workers are getting more organized, and this is 0:10:04.800 --> 0:10:09.400 like this is absolutely unacceptable to the party, and so yeah, 0:10:09.400 --> 0:10:11.520 on on on the night of June three, the army 0:10:11.960 --> 0:10:16.959 just starts killing them. Um. They there have been a 0:10:17.000 --> 0:10:20.040 couple of attempts earlier to clear to to to clear 0:10:20.080 --> 0:10:21.960 the sort of fortifications, and it hadn't really worked. But 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.840 this time, like they they're they're able to bring in 0:10:24.840 --> 0:10:27.319 builtering units that aren't from Beijing or like aren't from 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:31.959 around the area, and they kill an enormous number of people. 0:10:32.760 --> 0:10:35.920 Um yeah, and and I think it's I think it's 0:10:35.960 --> 0:10:38.520 important to note that, like both in terms of the 0:10:38.800 --> 0:10:43.280 killings that happened immediately and the political persecution after that, 0:10:43.360 --> 0:10:47.199 it's it's mostly the workers bearing this. Especially in the 0:10:47.200 --> 0:10:50.160 initial massacre. Most of the killing happens as the armies 0:10:50.240 --> 0:10:53.360 like fighting its way into the square. And you know, 0:10:53.360 --> 0:10:54.920 I mean they kill people in the square too, but 0:10:58.200 --> 0:11:00.720 you know, and eventually they into the square, and this 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.679 is where you get like tank man and like the 0:11:02.840 --> 0:11:04.440 sort of the famous accounts of the massacre. But like, 0:11:04.440 --> 0:11:07.240 but that blade is basically over right, because one of 0:11:07.240 --> 0:11:09.080 the other things has happened is that over the course 0:11:09.080 --> 0:11:10.679 of this protest, a lot of the students have left 0:11:11.080 --> 0:11:12.680 because they sort of they sort of gave up after 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:16.840 the like factional conflict like stopped. But so so most 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:21.280 of the people like who are there are are are 0:11:21.000 --> 0:11:23.200 on the outs, are like other workers on the outside 0:11:23.240 --> 0:11:25.400 of this trying to defend it. And when those people 0:11:25.440 --> 0:11:27.440 get killed and the art the army gets to build 0:11:27.440 --> 0:11:29.000 the square, it's it's the whole thing is already over. 0:11:30.240 --> 0:11:36.000 And you know, these protests get crushed and you know, 0:11:36.040 --> 0:11:39.600 but before the last bullet has been fired, everyone everyone 0:11:39.679 --> 0:11:42.040 left standing is trying to create their own narratives. But 0:11:42.080 --> 0:11:46.280 what just happened? Um, The most common one is that 0:11:46.360 --> 0:11:51.880 Chinaman is this like clash between democracy and authoritarianism, and like, okay, 0:11:51.920 --> 0:11:55.800 to some extent, that's not wrong, although I mean, you know, 0:11:56.200 --> 0:11:57.760 we've already mentioned that there are a lot of neo 0:11:57.800 --> 0:12:02.640 authoritarian students there, but like, you know, okay, this is 0:12:02.679 --> 0:12:04.840 this is kind of a fair interpretation of what's going on. 0:12:05.080 --> 0:12:07.560 Like there's a lot of other protomocracy movements in this period, 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:11.920 like the region, most famously there's tagwan So Korea. UM. 0:12:12.040 --> 0:12:19.199 But the actual question of what's happening here is is 0:12:19.679 --> 0:12:23.080 really a question of what kind of democracy there's You 0:12:23.120 --> 0:12:26.400 know that that these people are fighting for the students 0:12:26.440 --> 0:12:28.720 at Tianaments, you know, to the extent that their democratic 0:12:28.720 --> 0:12:31.720 principles are sincere and not a cover for a sort 0:12:31.720 --> 0:12:36.160 of like deeply authoritarian version of liberalism that's you know, 0:12:36.280 --> 0:12:38.040 demanded by like in the sort of new class of 0:12:38.040 --> 0:12:40.240 intellectual servercy market reforms. To the extent that they like, 0:12:40.280 --> 0:12:43.680 they actually believe in this right, they believe in a 0:12:43.760 --> 0:12:46.920 very narrow conception of political democracy. And you know this 0:12:46.920 --> 0:12:49.400 this democracy is sort of political democracy operates as the 0:12:49.480 --> 0:12:51.760 level of the state. Right, It's based on free citizens 0:12:51.760 --> 0:12:54.120 who are equal before the law, participating in elections. The 0:12:54.160 --> 0:12:57.840 chief representatives, you like, past laws and you know, oversee 0:12:57.840 --> 0:13:02.440 and manages state bureaucracy. But you know, this model of 0:13:02.440 --> 0:13:04.160 political democracy, which is this is the one that we 0:13:04.200 --> 0:13:09.559 live under, right, It really gets the workplace to a 0:13:10.520 --> 0:13:14.760 separate economic sphere into which democracy doesn't extend. The capitalist 0:13:14.840 --> 0:13:18.000 firm or its state owned equivalent remains the absolute dictatorship 0:13:18.040 --> 0:13:21.760 of capitalists and advantagial flunkeys, and even even the sort 0:13:21.760 --> 0:13:24.160 of progressive wings of the pro democracy movement in like 0:13:24.160 --> 0:13:27.760 Taiwan and South Korea, like maintain this private, this private didctatorships. 0:13:27.800 --> 0:13:29.880 You know, if if, if, if you're a work in 0:13:29.880 --> 0:13:32.719 one of these states, right, you get rights, you get 0:13:32.760 --> 0:13:34.280 you know, you get the ability to form unions, you 0:13:34.280 --> 0:13:36.199 get access to the welfare state, you get these sort 0:13:36.200 --> 0:13:38.839 of limited protections from the worst like physical and psychological 0:13:38.880 --> 0:13:42.520 abuses that your bosses can inflict. But no, no matter 0:13:42.559 --> 0:13:46.480 how progressive, the pro democracy movements actually are the legitimate 0:13:47.600 --> 0:13:53.560 Jesus sorry, the legitimacy of the dictatorship of the bosses, 0:13:53.559 --> 0:13:56.200 which was not up for dispute, you know, to to 0:13:56.200 --> 0:13:59.479 to to these sort of protmocracy movements, right, like democracy 0:13:59.520 --> 0:14:03.640 means a democra state and not a democratic workplace. And 0:14:03.960 --> 0:14:08.760 this is this is the huge divide between what's happening 0:14:08.760 --> 0:14:11.520 at Tianeman and what's happening like everywhere else in the world. 0:14:13.280 --> 0:14:16.880 The workers that Tianeman are the only people left in 0:14:16.960 --> 0:14:22.480 this entire sort of like run of protomocracy movements that disagree. 0:14:22.600 --> 0:14:25.720 They are standing against not only that, like every they're 0:14:25.720 --> 0:14:28.760 standing not only against their own governments, against a lot 0:14:28.880 --> 0:14:31.240 of the students who are who are also like at 0:14:31.240 --> 0:14:34.840 these protests. They are standing against literally the entire type 0:14:34.840 --> 0:14:38.520 of history itself, bye bye bye, you know, by applying 0:14:38.520 --> 0:14:41.360 the principles of protomocracy movements like their own concerns, right, 0:14:41.400 --> 0:14:45.680 which is skyrocketing inflation, mounting debts like rampant corruption to 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:49.560 government officials like spy, rocketing and spiraling inequality and petty 0:14:49.600 --> 0:14:54.880 bureaucratic oppression. Beijing's working class had reinvented a old and 0:14:54.920 --> 0:14:58.000 now like largely forgotten tradition of democracy and the factory 0:14:58.080 --> 0:15:00.840 that I'm gonna I'm calling it democratic your self management 0:15:00.840 --> 0:15:02.600 because there's no good name for it, and they're all 0:15:02.640 --> 0:15:08.320 kind of clunky. Fair, I mean, this is based on 0:15:08.360 --> 0:15:10.080 who these people were at the time. That makes sense 0:15:10.080 --> 0:15:12.320 that all of their names for things were pretty clunky. Yeah. Well, 0:15:12.320 --> 0:15:14.520 the thing is that they don't name like like this. 0:15:14.600 --> 0:15:17.240 And this is one of the things about Okay. One 0:15:17.280 --> 0:15:20.400 of the real problems with studying chairman, right, is it like, okay, 0:15:20.520 --> 0:15:23.520 so we have really good accounts from the students, right, 0:15:23.560 --> 0:15:25.560 because some of the students flee and they're able to 0:15:25.560 --> 0:15:28.640 make it out. We have like jack shit basically from 0:15:28.680 --> 0:15:31.520 the workers. We have. But what we do have is 0:15:31.600 --> 0:15:33.360 we have some of the We have some of the 0:15:33.440 --> 0:15:35.440 documents they produced, and we have a lot of interviews 0:15:35.440 --> 0:15:41.880 that we're done with with people there, and they I 0:15:41.920 --> 0:15:46.360 don't know that they have very very idiosyncratic ways of 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:49.240 expressing what they believe, and so you know, you'll get 0:15:49.240 --> 0:15:50.920 things where like Okay, they're like, okay, wake, we we 0:15:50.960 --> 0:15:52.760 believe in the rule of law, right, and then the 0:15:52.760 --> 0:15:56.200 next sentence will be like we we we have calculated 0:15:56.240 --> 0:15:58.520 the exact amount of surplus value that has been distracted 0:15:58.560 --> 0:16:02.880 from us according to marks. And it's like what, because Yeah, 0:16:03.480 --> 0:16:05.160 the thing that they're doing is like that they're they're 0:16:05.200 --> 0:16:08.440 they're synchronizing this new they're synchronizing sort of like a 0:16:08.480 --> 0:16:14.280 political tendency that's trying to address the sort of duel 0:16:14.320 --> 0:16:16.480 to kaderships are dealing with, right like, because they're they're 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:19.480 dealing at the same time with like this political dictatorshi 0:16:19.480 --> 0:16:21.080 at the party has and also the fact that their 0:16:21.120 --> 0:16:25.000 bosses now like completely control everything that they do. And 0:16:25.480 --> 0:16:30.400 because of this, they you know, they they wind up 0:16:30.440 --> 0:16:34.520 being like the last or I guess technically second to 0:16:34.600 --> 0:16:37.239 last because Argentina happens, although that that's sort of convoluted 0:16:37.560 --> 0:16:40.640 method itself, but they're they're in the twentieth century, like 0:16:40.680 --> 0:16:44.000 they are the last people who are fighting for democracy 0:16:44.000 --> 0:16:47.560 in the factory. And this, like to a large extent, 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.800 is what schandem is actually about. It's it's the culmination 0:16:49.840 --> 0:16:53.160 of a century and a half long war between the 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:55.640 democratic wing of the classical workers jument and like every 0:16:55.680 --> 0:17:00.440 single other ideology that exists, and these guys over that 0:17:00.480 --> 0:17:02.440 century and a half long span, they're going to fight Communists, 0:17:02.440 --> 0:17:04.080 are going to fight capitalists, are going to fight liberals 0:17:04.119 --> 0:17:07.400 and fascists and monarchies and republics and social democracies and theocracies, 0:17:08.040 --> 0:17:11.880 and at Tieneman, they're gonna lose one more time. And 0:17:12.280 --> 0:17:15.200 that defeat, the fact that they lose here, and the 0:17:15.200 --> 0:17:17.760 fact that these people get slaughtered, the fact that like 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.159 their crushed so effectively that no one even remembers what 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:22.680 they were, don't even remembers they exist or like much 0:17:22.760 --> 0:17:25.399 less like what they were fighting for. This defeat is 0:17:25.440 --> 0:17:28.080 the origin of the modern world. That one man ruling 0:17:28.119 --> 0:17:31.080 the factory, like the the individual, single boss who has 0:17:31.119 --> 0:17:34.480 total control and power over you is in in its 0:17:34.480 --> 0:17:36.560 sort of thousand forms, is the author of the hell 0:17:36.680 --> 0:17:39.440 that is the twenty one century and when we come 0:17:39.480 --> 0:17:42.280 back from this commercial break, we are going to look 0:17:42.320 --> 0:17:44.960 at the international part of the struggle that Tianneman is 0:17:45.000 --> 0:17:49.040 sort of like the conclusion of. So here's some ads 0:17:49.440 --> 0:17:54.640 maybe the job working at their distribution center, heying gig, 0:18:04.760 --> 0:18:09.520 and we're back to look at y You two also 0:18:09.640 --> 0:18:14.280 must live in the the the absolutely one man dictatorship 0:18:14.320 --> 0:18:18.720 in the factory. So it's it's not not not not 0:18:18.720 --> 0:18:21.480 not not as much one man. It's the one algorithm 0:18:21.520 --> 0:18:23.000 you have to you have to listen to what your 0:18:23.040 --> 0:18:26.760 iPad tells you when you're walking through the Amazon distribution center. 0:18:27.080 --> 0:18:31.119 That's true. Yeah, they have. It is funny because it's 0:18:31.119 --> 0:18:33.760 like that they they've somehow made a worse version of 0:18:33.840 --> 0:18:36.400 it. It It was like, okay, yeah, it's like it's it's yeah, 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.479 it's like, okay, now now now you were ruled by 0:18:38.520 --> 0:18:41.120 a computer whose whose job it is to make one 0:18:41.160 --> 0:18:44.120 person an extremely large amount of money. It's even for 0:18:44.119 --> 0:18:50.879 further like depersonalized and further disjointed from actually being a human. Yeah, 0:18:50.960 --> 0:18:55.679 it's it's I don't know that there's there's there's some 0:18:55.760 --> 0:18:58.359 metaphor here which if I wasn't like sick out of 0:18:58.400 --> 0:19:03.080 my mind out how like power depersonalizes, the dehumanizes you 0:19:03.160 --> 0:19:05.199 until the point where you're replaced with the machine that 0:19:05.240 --> 0:19:09.200 you can make here, but I I don't know one 0:19:09.240 --> 0:19:11.960 in one in every two days, the rumor randomly starts 0:19:11.960 --> 0:19:15.760 binding on me. So yeah, I can't. I can't do that. 0:19:16.520 --> 0:19:21.000 The lesson here, The lesson here is is that when 0:19:21.000 --> 0:19:24.360 you're thinking about factories and how bosses suck and how 0:19:24.400 --> 0:19:26.800 it's not great to work at a factory, just have 0:19:26.880 --> 0:19:28.879 a boss that tells you what to do. The lesson 0:19:28.920 --> 0:19:30.720 is that it can always get worse because it could 0:19:30.720 --> 0:19:36.800 always be a computer. Yeah, anyway, continue, So okay, So 0:19:37.160 --> 0:19:39.879 to get a sense of like what this fight is 0:19:40.880 --> 0:19:44.520 and like how how we got to Tiana, men, we 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:47.960 need to go back to the Revolutions of which is 0:19:49.320 --> 0:19:53.640 at first glance not like not an incredibly obvious place 0:19:53.680 --> 0:19:56.840 to start. Um. Okay, if if you want like a 0:19:56.880 --> 0:19:59.640 really detailed, like blow for blow account of the Revolutions 0:19:59.640 --> 0:20:02.400 of eighteen forty eight, go listen to the Revolutions podcast. 0:20:03.040 --> 0:20:05.880 It it's good. I am not gonna do it here 0:20:05.920 --> 0:20:09.280 because oh my god, there's so much stuff. But the 0:20:09.640 --> 0:20:14.080 very short version is that so in h forty eight 0:20:14.119 --> 0:20:16.480 across Europe. There's a bunch of revolutions that are collectively 0:20:16.480 --> 0:20:18.439 known while sometimes known as like the Springtime of the 0:20:18.480 --> 0:20:22.879 People's and this is this is the first revoluence. This 0:20:22.960 --> 0:20:25.480 is the first wave of revolutions where socialists are like 0:20:25.560 --> 0:20:29.720 a real thing. Um like Frederick Angles like that angles 0:20:29.720 --> 0:20:31.919 like the marks and angles. Angles is like on a 0:20:31.960 --> 0:20:37.080 barricade with a rifle fighting in Prussia. There's like, yeah, 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:40.080 I'm not gonna sadly, I can't get into Augustva willage here, 0:20:40.119 --> 0:20:42.600 but like go go, go, go google Augustva Village is 0:20:42.640 --> 0:20:45.600 He's wild. There's a huge revolution in France where they 0:20:45.640 --> 0:20:49.399 like that they finally deposed the king and you know this, 0:20:49.600 --> 0:20:53.760 there's this question here and as these revolutions look like 0:20:53.840 --> 0:20:56.720 they're winning, there's this question of how far democracy is 0:20:56.760 --> 0:20:59.240 going to go and what it's going to mean. Um, 0:20:59.280 --> 0:21:02.439 and you have a large thing. You have this. This 0:21:02.480 --> 0:21:04.359 is in a lot of ways very similar to what 0:21:04.400 --> 0:21:06.840 you're dealing with with in in China. In the nine 0:21:07.960 --> 0:21:09.879 Inside of France, you have the split, right, you have 0:21:09.920 --> 0:21:12.960 the split between you know, like the people who are 0:21:13.000 --> 0:21:15.000 like who are like French radicals, but in the sense 0:21:15.040 --> 0:21:19.040 of like the original French Revolution. Who are you know, Okay, 0:21:18.520 --> 0:21:23.240 they want like they want an elected democracy. They absolutely 0:21:23.280 --> 0:21:27.359 do not want to like deal with the fact that 0:21:26.960 --> 0:21:30.080 that the workplace is not a democracy. And then you know, 0:21:30.200 --> 0:21:31.560 and you have you have a bunch of socialists, and 0:21:31.560 --> 0:21:35.040 the socialists are like, hey, can we do something about 0:21:35.040 --> 0:21:37.439 like property relations and like the fact that there's a 0:21:37.440 --> 0:21:41.639 bunch of poor people with no jobs, and you know, 0:21:41.680 --> 0:21:46.440 and the socialists gets slaughtered, but you know, they don't die. 0:21:46.720 --> 0:21:55.440 I mean, okay, you just said, okay, So a lot 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:57.520 of these people get horribly slaughtered, but a lot of 0:21:57.560 --> 0:22:02.720 them escape and lives on, and so a lot of 0:22:02.720 --> 0:22:04.080 the lead well, I mean, there's interesting story here, Like 0:22:04.119 --> 0:22:05.880 a lot of the leaders like live on. A lot 0:22:05.920 --> 0:22:08.359 of these people, like for example, but a bunch of 0:22:08.359 --> 0:22:10.160 people flee to the US and they wind up being 0:22:10.240 --> 0:22:12.119 like the like a lot of the officer core of 0:22:12.160 --> 0:22:14.040 the Union army and in the Civil War is made 0:22:14.080 --> 0:22:15.960