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Speaker 1: Welcome to pick it up and here a podcast about

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Speaker 1: something that did happen that sucked enormously. Um. I'm Christopher

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Speaker 1: Wall I'm the host. Also with me is Garrison and Sophie. Hello.

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Speaker 1: We just in the morning, just really starting off positive there.

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Speaker 1: It's look, it's it's this episode in the next episode.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I guess this episode kind of ends in

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Speaker 1: a high note. But that's great to hear. I'm so happy.

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Speaker 1: I totally believe you. It kind of does, all right. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: Sharene is also here. Hello, Hi, Sorry my fault, keep going,

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Speaker 1: no worries. So this is this is the thirty third

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Speaker 1: anniversary of the Caamon Square massacre. UM. Tomorrow's episode. I

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Speaker 1: think we'll actually be going out on I guess the

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Speaker 1: day that it started kind of starts like the it

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Speaker 1: of like June three. Um, and okay, I'm curious what

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Speaker 1: you choose, Like I don't know, like received like cultural

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Speaker 1: memory of Channaman is because I don't know. I think

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Speaker 1: I got a kind of weird one, like being from

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Speaker 1: a Chinese family, but as a white Canadian, I have

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Speaker 1: zero amount of my knowledge about the tam Tannaman Square massacre.

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Speaker 1: Not really about Tanneman. Uh, it's just Yeah, that is

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Speaker 1: something I never never have really learned about. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: know that it happened in That's that's the American lesson

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Speaker 1: we got on the history of that massacre, that it

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Speaker 1: happened in nineteen really mediocre. Yeah, Okay, Well today and

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Speaker 1: tomorrow we're gonna we're gonna go, well, we're gonna talk

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Speaker 1: I think less about what happens there specifically and more

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Speaker 1: about the sort of broader history that's in. But I

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Speaker 1: guess let's start out so in sometimes there's there's really

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Speaker 1: three tenements. Um, there's there's the student protests that's inside

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Speaker 1: Tanement Square itself. There's this part of Beijing like around

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Speaker 1: the squares, like a bunch of blocks are taken over

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Speaker 1: by workers. And then there's a bunch of protests in

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Speaker 1: other cities. And unfortunately, we're not gonna be talking about

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Speaker 1: the Protestant the other cities because like basically nothing is

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Speaker 1: known about them other than that like they happened, but

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Speaker 1: the people who would know aren't talking so for some

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Speaker 1: somewhat obvious reasons. Um, yeah, and the students themselves, I

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Speaker 1: think like the normal version of tianement is like these

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Speaker 1: there's the students and they're like protomocracy protesters, right, but

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Speaker 1: they're way weirder than that. There's there's like this weird

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Speaker 1: ideological grab bag thing going on. Um, they're they're they're

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Speaker 1: basically what they're piste off about is that this thing

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Speaker 1: is called the reform and opening, like isn't going fast

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Speaker 1: enough and we should talk about what that sort of

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Speaker 1: is so perform and opening is. It's this period in

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Speaker 1: China and sort of the eighties and songs of the nineties. Um.

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Speaker 1: And on the one hand, you have these sort of

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Speaker 1: steps to like ease restrictions on speech and like rehability

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Speaker 1: to intellectuals and like allow for broader public discourse. But

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Speaker 1: the other half of it is that like they're they're

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Speaker 1: being they're basically they're bringing markets back in China, right,

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Speaker 1: And this this is a ship show in a lot

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Speaker 1: of ways. If you want to hear about like the

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Speaker 1: CCP reinventing debt p and age in about five years, Um,

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Speaker 1: go listen to my Baschard's episode and the poison Milk scandal.

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Speaker 1: It's a it's a trip. But on the other hand,

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Speaker 1: you have you know, so you have kind of like

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Speaker 1: opening up, right, you have just more discourse. You're they're

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Speaker 1: not pursue intellectuals again, sort of that there, they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're persecuting the intellectuals that they had persecuted. Um. But

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Speaker 1: on the other hand, you get this absolutely draconian sort

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Speaker 1: of like a set of crackdowns in the social sphere.

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Speaker 1: You have the one child policy, you have this like

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Speaker 1: really powerful tightening of one man rule in the factory,

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Speaker 1: and you have the sort of the destruction of these

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Speaker 1: for what we'll get into this more later, but like

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Speaker 1: the the sort of limited decision making capacity that workers

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Speaker 1: have had in the factories, um, just this sort of dismantled.

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Speaker 1: And so you see these sort of gaps beginning to

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Speaker 1: form here, right Like, on the one hand, you have

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Speaker 1: these students who want market reforms to go faster, and

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Speaker 1: they want more freedom of speech, They like kind of

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Speaker 1: want democracy, but like mostly what they want is to

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Speaker 1: be in charge of the party so they can crush

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Speaker 1: the sort of like bureaucracy they see as holding market

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Speaker 1: reforms back. And it's worth noting that like a lot

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Speaker 1: of these students are involved in what becomes known as

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Speaker 1: neo authoritarianism, which is the sort of ideology that holds

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Speaker 1: that like the strong central party should take full control

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Speaker 1: of society and destroying the factions in the bureaucracy and

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Speaker 1: so you know, and that that's how you can lead

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Speaker 1: to element and this stuff like that stuff like ne

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Speaker 1: authoritarianism survives the protests and goes on to become like

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Speaker 1: a pretty major faction in the CCP itself, and then

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Speaker 1: I us in two thousand's and you know, this is

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Speaker 1: this is where things just get weird, right, Um, the

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Speaker 1: student movement itself is very hierarchical, and it gets to

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Speaker 1: the point where like but by by by the end

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Speaker 1: of the student movement, there these the student leaders are

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Speaker 1: like kidnapping each other over like who has control of

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Speaker 1: the microphones, and like the stages in the square it is.

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Speaker 1: It is extremely bizarre. And you know, and in terms

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Speaker 1: of like the protests actually like if the what their

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Speaker 1: torches are trying to do is you're trying to influence

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Speaker 1: this factional fight inside the CCP over like the speed

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Speaker 1: at which reformers are going to go, and this it

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Speaker 1: doesn't work. It's like stunningly ineffectual. The guy they're trying

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Speaker 1: to defend like winds up getting outed and put in

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Speaker 1: her house to rest of the rest of his life

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Speaker 1: if so. Okay, so those are the student protesters. But

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Speaker 1: the part and that that the student protesters are the

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Speaker 1: part of this that like everyone knows, partly because some

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Speaker 1: of those people escaped to Hong Kong and you know,

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Speaker 1: they're they're very influential sort of shaping the memory there.

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Speaker 1: But there's also the workers that I mentioned earlier, and

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Speaker 1: the students basically hate the workers, um for for for

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Speaker 1: most of the time this protest is going on, and

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Speaker 1: this is the this is months, right, they literally will

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Speaker 1: they will not let any of the workers go into

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Speaker 1: the into tenement square like that they have. They have

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Speaker 1: this whole system and like in order to get into

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Speaker 1: like increasing like like closer to the center of the square,

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Speaker 1: you have to be a student, and then you need

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Speaker 1: to get to the center of the squere you have

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Speaker 1: to be like a member of the leadership. It's very weird,

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Speaker 1: and you know, and like one of the things that

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Speaker 1: workers are trying to do is they want to carry

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Speaker 1: out a general strike, and the students are like, no,

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Speaker 1: absolutely not, do not do a general strike because largely

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Speaker 1: because okay, so if these people start doing a general strike,

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Speaker 1: like that's not something that's not under our control. And

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Speaker 1: you know, okay, So this raises the question like if

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Speaker 1: the relate between the students who are at tenement and

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Speaker 1: the workers at chenemen are this bad, like why are

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Speaker 1: the workers even there? Um? And And there's a few

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Speaker 1: answers to this question that the sort of the simplest

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Speaker 1: and most immediate one is that like the workers are

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Speaker 1: initially they come out because they're pissed. They see how

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Speaker 1: badly like the cops in sort of like the party

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Speaker 1: is is treating the students in the square, so they

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Speaker 1: get mad. But but but there's there's other stuff going

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Speaker 1: on to the late eighties is the ladies in China

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Speaker 1: is sort of a mess economically that there's rampant inflation

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Speaker 1: and the sort of rapid increase in prices is a

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Speaker 1: threat to you know, the sort of like cheap supply grain,

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Speaker 1: which is like the sort of main subsidy that if

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Speaker 1: you're an urban worker that you get. And meanwhile, you know,

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Speaker 1: you have marketization happening, so at the same time that

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Speaker 1: every the prices are increasing for everyone and they can't

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Speaker 1: get access the stuff that they need. You have just

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Speaker 1: like CCP princelings like racing down the street and imputed

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Speaker 1: sports cars and like these are like the only these

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Speaker 1: are the only cars, right like people people I don't know,

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Speaker 1: like like people are starting to get bicycles and mass

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Speaker 1: sort of in this period. But then you know, I

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Speaker 1: was like, hey, here's here's this like party boss guy

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Speaker 1: who was a sports car. They're like spending years salaries

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Speaker 1: like gambling at race tracks, and people just get piste off.

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Speaker 1: So they they start organizing. And I'm going to read

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Speaker 1: from a section of a piece by Rhans Jong about

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Speaker 1: what what they were doing. Um during the struggle to

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Speaker 1: obstruct the military, workers started to realize the power of

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Speaker 1: their spontaneous organization and action. This was self liberation on

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Speaker 1: an unprecedented level. A huge wave of self organization and

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Speaker 1: suit the Beijing Works Autonomous Federations. Membership grew exponentially in

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Speaker 1: other workers organizations both within and across workplaces mushrooms. The

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Speaker 1: development of organizations led to a radicalization of action. Workers

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Speaker 1: started organizing self armed quasi militias such as picket cores

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Speaker 1: and Dared or Die brigades to monitor and broadcast the

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Speaker 1: military's whereabouts. These quasi militias were also responsible for maintaining

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Speaker 1: public order, so as not to provide any pretext for

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Speaker 1: military intervention. In a sense, Beijing became a city was

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Speaker 1: self managed by workers. It was reminiscent of petrograds self

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Speaker 1: farm workers organized in the Soviets in the months between

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Speaker 1: Russia's February and October revolutions. At the same time, Beijing

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Speaker 1: workers built many more barricades and fortifications and on the

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Speaker 1: street in many factories that organized strikes and slowdowns. A

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Speaker 1: possible general strike was put on the table as well.

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Speaker 1: Many workers started to build connections between factories prepare for

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Speaker 1: a general strike. And yeah, like this is the part

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Speaker 1: of it that like people don't talk about because it

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Speaker 1: wasn't in the square. And I mean the other part,

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Speaker 1: the other faction, like the fact that that's going on

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Speaker 1: here is that like so the press Corps is like

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Speaker 1: sitting in the square, and this is why Kianna ministers

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Speaker 1: this sort is like this is massive spectacle, right because

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Speaker 1: all of this, everything that's happening here inside the square

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Speaker 1: was happening like in front of the entire Western Press

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Speaker 1: Court and like people are like, you know, like people

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Speaker 1: are just like pointing cameras at their window, right, and

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Speaker 1: you know, but on the other hand, the people out

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Speaker 1: side of the square, the workers outside of the square

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Speaker 1: are the workers are getting more organized, and this is

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Speaker 1: like this is absolutely unacceptable to the party, and so yeah,

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Speaker 1: on on on the night of June three, the army

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Speaker 1: just starts killing them. Um. They there have been a

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Speaker 1: couple of attempts earlier to clear to to to clear

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Speaker 1: the sort of fortifications, and it hadn't really worked. But

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Speaker 1: this time, like they they're they're able to bring in

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Speaker 1: builtering units that aren't from Beijing or like aren't from

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Speaker 1: around the area, and they kill an enormous number of people.

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Speaker 1: Um yeah, and and I think it's I think it's

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Speaker 1: important to note that, like both in terms of the

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Speaker 1: killings that happened immediately and the political persecution after that,

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Speaker 1: it's it's mostly the workers bearing this. Especially in the

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Speaker 1: initial massacre. Most of the killing happens as the armies

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Speaker 1: like fighting its way into the square. And you know,

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Speaker 1: I mean they kill people in the square too, but

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Speaker 1: you know, and eventually they into the square, and this

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Speaker 1: is where you get like tank man and like the

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Speaker 1: sort of the famous accounts of the massacre. But like,

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Speaker 1: but that blade is basically over right, because one of

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Speaker 1: the other things has happened is that over the course

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Speaker 1: of this protest, a lot of the students have left

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Speaker 1: because they sort of they sort of gave up after

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Speaker 1: the like factional conflict like stopped. But so so most

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Speaker 1: of the people like who are there are are are

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Speaker 1: on the outs, are like other workers on the outside

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Speaker 1: of this trying to defend it. And when those people

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Speaker 1: get killed and the art the army gets to build

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Speaker 1: the square, it's it's the whole thing is already over.

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Speaker 1: And you know, these protests get crushed and you know,

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Speaker 1: but before the last bullet has been fired, everyone everyone

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Speaker 1: left standing is trying to create their own narratives. But

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Speaker 1: what just happened? Um, The most common one is that

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Speaker 1: Chinaman is this like clash between democracy and authoritarianism, and like, okay,

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Speaker 1: to some extent, that's not wrong, although I mean, you know,

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Speaker 1: we've already mentioned that there are a lot of neo

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Speaker 1: authoritarian students there, but like, you know, okay, this is

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Speaker 1: this is kind of a fair interpretation of what's going on.

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Speaker 1: Like there's a lot of other protomocracy movements in this period,

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Speaker 1: like the region, most famously there's tagwan So Korea. UM.

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Speaker 1: But the actual question of what's happening here is is

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Speaker 1: really a question of what kind of democracy there's You

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Speaker 1: know that that these people are fighting for the students

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Speaker 1: at Tianaments, you know, to the extent that their democratic

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Speaker 1: principles are sincere and not a cover for a sort

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Speaker 1: of like deeply authoritarian version of liberalism that's you know,

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Speaker 1: demanded by like in the sort of new class of

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Speaker 1: intellectual servercy market reforms. To the extent that they like,

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Speaker 1: they actually believe in this right, they believe in a

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Speaker 1: very narrow conception of political democracy. And you know this

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Speaker 1: this democracy is sort of political democracy operates as the

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Speaker 1: level of the state. Right, It's based on free citizens

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Speaker 1: who are equal before the law, participating in elections. The

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Speaker 1: chief representatives, you like, past laws and you know, oversee

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Speaker 1: and manages state bureaucracy. But you know, this model of

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Speaker 1: political democracy, which is this is the one that we

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Speaker 1: live under, right, It really gets the workplace to a

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Speaker 1: separate economic sphere into which democracy doesn't extend. The capitalist

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Speaker 1: firm or its state owned equivalent remains the absolute dictatorship

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Speaker 1: of capitalists and advantagial flunkeys, and even even the sort

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Speaker 1: of progressive wings of the pro democracy movement in like

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Speaker 1: Taiwan and South Korea, like maintain this private, this private didctatorships.

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Speaker 1: You know, if if, if, if you're a work in

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Speaker 1: one of these states, right, you get rights, you get

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Speaker 1: you know, you get the ability to form unions, you

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Speaker 1: get access to the welfare state, you get these sort

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Speaker 1: of limited protections from the worst like physical and psychological

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Speaker 1: abuses that your bosses can inflict. But no, no matter

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Speaker 1: how progressive, the pro democracy movements actually are the legitimate

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Speaker 1: Jesus sorry, the legitimacy of the dictatorship of the bosses,

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Speaker 1: which was not up for dispute, you know, to to

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Speaker 1: to to these sort of protmocracy movements, right, like democracy

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Speaker 1: means a democra state and not a democratic workplace. And

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Speaker 1: this is this is the huge divide between what's happening

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Speaker 1: at Tianeman and what's happening like everywhere else in the world.

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Speaker 1: The workers that Tianeman are the only people left in

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Speaker 1: this entire sort of like run of protomocracy movements that disagree.

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Speaker 1: They are standing against not only that, like every they're

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Speaker 1: standing not only against their own governments, against a lot

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Speaker 1: of the students who are who are also like at

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Speaker 1: these protests. They are standing against literally the entire type

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Speaker 1: of history itself, bye bye bye, you know, by applying

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Speaker 1: the principles of protomocracy movements like their own concerns, right,

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Speaker 1: which is skyrocketing inflation, mounting debts like rampant corruption to

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Speaker 1: government officials like spy, rocketing and spiraling inequality and petty

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Speaker 1: bureaucratic oppression. Beijing's working class had reinvented a old and

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Speaker 1: now like largely forgotten tradition of democracy and the factory

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Speaker 1: that I'm gonna I'm calling it democratic your self management

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Speaker 1: because there's no good name for it, and they're all

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Speaker 1: kind of clunky. Fair, I mean, this is based on

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Speaker 1: who these people were at the time. That makes sense

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Speaker 1: that all of their names for things were pretty clunky. Yeah. Well,

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Speaker 1: the thing is that they don't name like like this.

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Speaker 1: And this is one of the things about Okay. One

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Speaker 1: of the real problems with studying chairman, right, is it like, okay,

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Speaker 1: so we have really good accounts from the students, right,

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Speaker 1: because some of the students flee and they're able to

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Speaker 1: make it out. We have like jack shit basically from

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Speaker 1: the workers. We have. But what we do have is

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Speaker 1: we have some of the We have some of the

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Speaker 1: documents they produced, and we have a lot of interviews

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Speaker 1: that we're done with with people there, and they I

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Speaker 1: don't know that they have very very idiosyncratic ways of

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Speaker 1: expressing what they believe, and so you know, you'll get

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Speaker 1: things where like Okay, they're like, okay, wake, we we

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Speaker 1: believe in the rule of law, right, and then the

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Speaker 1: next sentence will be like we we we have calculated

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Speaker 1: the exact amount of surplus value that has been distracted

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Speaker 1: from us according to marks. And it's like what, because Yeah,

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Speaker 1: the thing that they're doing is like that they're they're

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Speaker 1: they're synchronizing this new they're synchronizing sort of like a

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Speaker 1: political tendency that's trying to address the sort of duel

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Speaker 1: to kaderships are dealing with, right like, because they're they're

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Speaker 1: dealing at the same time with like this political dictatorshi

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Speaker 1: at the party has and also the fact that their

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Speaker 1: bosses now like completely control everything that they do. And

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Speaker 1: because of this, they you know, they they wind up

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Speaker 1: being like the last or I guess technically second to

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Speaker 1: last because Argentina happens, although that that's sort of convoluted

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Speaker 1: method itself, but they're they're in the twentieth century, like

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Speaker 1: they are the last people who are fighting for democracy

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Speaker 1: in the factory. And this, like to a large extent,

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Speaker 1: is what schandem is actually about. It's it's the culmination

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Speaker 1: of a century and a half long war between the

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Speaker 1: democratic wing of the classical workers jument and like every

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Speaker 1: single other ideology that exists, and these guys over that

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Speaker 1: century and a half long span, they're going to fight Communists,

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Speaker 1: are going to fight capitalists, are going to fight liberals

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Speaker 1: and fascists and monarchies and republics and social democracies and theocracies,

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Speaker 1: and at Tieneman, they're gonna lose one more time. And

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Speaker 1: that defeat, the fact that they lose here, and the

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Speaker 1: fact that these people get slaughtered, the fact that like

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Speaker 1: their crushed so effectively that no one even remembers what

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Speaker 1: they were, don't even remembers they exist or like much

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Speaker 1: less like what they were fighting for. This defeat is

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Speaker 1: the origin of the modern world. That one man ruling

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Speaker 1: the factory, like the the individual, single boss who has

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Speaker 1: total control and power over you is in in its

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Speaker 1: sort of thousand forms, is the author of the hell

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Speaker 1: that is the twenty one century and when we come

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Speaker 1: back from this commercial break, we are going to look

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Speaker 1: at the international part of the struggle that Tianneman is

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Speaker 1: sort of like the conclusion of. So here's some ads

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Speaker 1: maybe the job working at their distribution center, heying gig,

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Speaker 1: and we're back to look at y You two also

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Speaker 1: must live in the the the absolutely one man dictatorship

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Speaker 1: in the factory. So it's it's not not not not

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Speaker 1: not not as much one man. It's the one algorithm

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Speaker 1: you have to you have to listen to what your

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Speaker 1: iPad tells you when you're walking through the Amazon distribution center.

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Speaker 1: That's true. Yeah, they have. It is funny because it's

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Speaker 1: like that they they've somehow made a worse version of

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Speaker 1: it. It It was like, okay, yeah, it's like it's it's yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's like, okay, now now now you were ruled by

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Speaker 1: a computer whose whose job it is to make one

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Speaker 1: person an extremely large amount of money. It's even for

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Speaker 1: further like depersonalized and further disjointed from actually being a human. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it's it's I don't know that there's there's there's some

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Speaker 1: metaphor here which if I wasn't like sick out of

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Speaker 1: my mind out how like power depersonalizes, the dehumanizes you

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Speaker 1: until the point where you're replaced with the machine that

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Speaker 1: you can make here, but I I don't know one

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Speaker 1: in one in every two days, the rumor randomly starts

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Speaker 1: binding on me. So yeah, I can't. I can't do that.

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Speaker 1: The lesson here, The lesson here is is that when

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Speaker 1: you're thinking about factories and how bosses suck and how

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Speaker 1: it's not great to work at a factory, just have

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Speaker 1: a boss that tells you what to do. The lesson

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Speaker 1: is that it can always get worse because it could

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Speaker 1: always be a computer. Yeah, anyway, continue, So okay, So

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Speaker 1: to get a sense of like what this fight is

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Speaker 1: and like how how we got to Tiana, men, we

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Speaker 1: need to go back to the Revolutions of which is

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Speaker 1: at first glance not like not an incredibly obvious place

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Speaker 1: to start. Um. Okay, if if you want like a

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Speaker 1: really detailed, like blow for blow account of the Revolutions

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Speaker 1: of eighteen forty eight, go listen to the Revolutions podcast.

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Speaker 1: It it's good. I am not gonna do it here

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Speaker 1: because oh my god, there's so much stuff. But the

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Speaker 1: very short version is that so in h forty eight

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Speaker 1: across Europe. There's a bunch of revolutions that are collectively

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Speaker 1: known while sometimes known as like the Springtime of the

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Speaker 1: People's and this is this is the first revoluence. This

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Speaker 1: is the first wave of revolutions where socialists are like

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Speaker 1: a real thing. Um like Frederick Angles like that angles

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Speaker 1: like the marks and angles. Angles is like on a

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Speaker 1: barricade with a rifle fighting in Prussia. There's like, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not gonna sadly, I can't get into Augustva willage here,

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Speaker 1: but like go go, go, go google Augustva Village is

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Speaker 1: He's wild. There's a huge revolution in France where they

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Speaker 1: like that they finally deposed the king and you know this,

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Speaker 1: there's this question here and as these revolutions look like

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Speaker 1: they're winning, there's this question of how far democracy is

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Speaker 1: going to go and what it's going to mean. Um,

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Speaker 1: and you have a large thing. You have this. This

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Speaker 1: is in a lot of ways very similar to what

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Speaker 1: you're dealing with with in in China. In the nine

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Speaker 1: Inside of France, you have the split, right, you have

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Speaker 1: the split between you know, like the people who are

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Speaker 1: like who are like French radicals, but in the sense

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Speaker 1: of like the original French Revolution. Who are you know, Okay,

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Speaker 1: they want like they want an elected democracy. They absolutely

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Speaker 1: do not want to like deal with the fact that

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Speaker 1: that the workplace is not a democracy. And then you know,

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Speaker 1: and you have you have a bunch of socialists, and

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Speaker 1: the socialists are like, hey, can we do something about

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Speaker 1: like property relations and like the fact that there's a

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Speaker 1: bunch of poor people with no jobs, and you know,

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Speaker 1: and the socialists gets slaughtered, but you know, they don't die.

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Speaker 1: I mean, okay, you just said, okay, So a lot

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Speaker 1: of these people get horribly slaughtered, but a lot of

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Speaker 1: them escape and lives on, and so a lot of

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Speaker 1: the lead well, I mean, there's interesting story here, Like

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Speaker 1: a lot of the leaders like live on. A lot

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Speaker 1: of these people, like for example, but a bunch of

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Speaker 1: people flee to the US and they wind up being

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Speaker 1: like the like a lot of the officer core of

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Speaker 1: the Union army and in the Civil War is made

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Speaker 1: up by these by these socialists who like had to

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Speaker 1: flee after the revolutions failed and like Prussia and stuff.

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Speaker 1: But yeah, so but many of them do in fact die. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: it doesn't go great for them, and and you know,

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Speaker 1: and you get to see one of the other things

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Speaker 1: that's going to happen a lot, which is that. Okay,

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Speaker 1: so like the the sort of like the French like

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Speaker 1: like the French radicals who are like pro capitalism but

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Speaker 1: also pro democracy like ally with the conservative factions, and

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Speaker 1: then they also all get killed when Napoleon, Napoleon the

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Speaker 1: Third takes power. But man, it's really it's really it's

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Speaker 1: really hard to root for someone here and that yeah,

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Speaker 1: I know, it's those It's like this is really like

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Speaker 1: like the revolution produces his own grave digger ship, Like, oh, hey,

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Speaker 1: what what did you expect was going to happen when

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Speaker 1: you allied with like the landlords and I Napoleon Third.

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Speaker 1: This good thing, this mistake will never be made again.

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Speaker 1: No good good thing. Yeah, yeah, pay no mind to

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Speaker 1: the rest of this episode anyway. Continue. So, yeah, you

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Speaker 1: have the split between people who want electoral democracy but

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Speaker 1: you know, to catorships in the workplace and these people

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Speaker 1: who want like democracy in the workplace. And this also

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Speaker 1: prefigures a split inside of socialism itself. Um for you know,

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Speaker 1: for for for the and this isn't even I like

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Speaker 1: in my script, I say like for for for the

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Speaker 1: most radical factions of socialism, you know, like in control

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Speaker 1: over the means of production, which is like the thing

428
00:23:46,640 --> 00:23:49,720
Speaker 1: that you want means that like production is controlled either

429
00:23:49,760 --> 00:23:52,840
Speaker 1: by like free associations and workers like you know you

430
00:23:52,960 --> 00:23:56,520
Speaker 1: direct democratic unions, is later called syndicalism or like workers councils,

431
00:23:57,200 --> 00:23:58,760
Speaker 1: and that that's you know, I say, it's the most

432
00:23:58,840 --> 00:24:01,320
Speaker 1: radicollection like that that's a very popular conception of like

433
00:24:01,400 --> 00:24:03,639
Speaker 1: what this is going to be. Like if you read marks,

434
00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:06,880
Speaker 1: like marks is like, oh yeah, free associations a workers sure.

435
00:24:07,520 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: But you know, as as the sort of like eighteen

436
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,240
Speaker 1: forties roll into the eighteen citties and the eighteen seventies,

437
00:24:12,640 --> 00:24:15,119
Speaker 1: there's this faction of the movement that becomes just like

438
00:24:15,840 --> 00:24:19,520
Speaker 1: obsessed with with the bureaucratic technologies of the states, and

439
00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,639
Speaker 1: you know, like they they they they watch the state

440
00:24:23,359 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 1: really get involved in the economy in a way that

441
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: it like kind of hasn't before. Then they they in

442
00:24:29,240 --> 00:24:31,520
Speaker 1: over the course of sort of industrialization, they watch with

443
00:24:31,600 --> 00:24:35,320
Speaker 1: like incredible envy as they see like these incredibly elaborate

444
00:24:35,320 --> 00:24:37,720
Speaker 1: like planning schemes. They see the state building roads and

445
00:24:37,720 --> 00:24:40,320
Speaker 1: canals and railroads and then entire cities with these like

446
00:24:40,320 --> 00:24:43,680
Speaker 1: complex electrical grids and like gas lions and plumbing systems

447
00:24:43,800 --> 00:24:48,440
Speaker 1: and especially trains, like specifically trains. This drives them all

448
00:24:48,480 --> 00:24:52,320
Speaker 1: completely insane, and they become they begin to believe that

449
00:24:52,359 --> 00:24:56,480
Speaker 1: like a single centralized planning body, like non amercratic association

450
00:24:56,520 --> 00:24:59,280
Speaker 1: of workers, like a single centralized state planning body can

451
00:24:59,359 --> 00:25:01,639
Speaker 1: like you know, bring about the long saw after like

452
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:05,640
Speaker 1: cooperative commonwealth of socialism and all all these people get

453
00:25:05,680 --> 00:25:08,040
Speaker 1: they get obsessed with like such a planning right, and

454
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:11,440
Speaker 1: this becomes this starts to sort of like consume more

455
00:25:11,480 --> 00:25:14,440
Speaker 1: and more of the left um in Germany, which is

456
00:25:14,480 --> 00:25:17,240
Speaker 1: home to like the powerful German Social Democratic Party, which

457
00:25:17,280 --> 00:25:19,400
Speaker 1: is like probably the most powerful socialist party in the world.

458
00:25:19,400 --> 00:25:21,600
Speaker 1: At this point, the socialists become divided into two camps.

459
00:25:21,640 --> 00:25:24,600
Speaker 1: There there's the revisionists led by Edward Bernstein, who like

460
00:25:25,000 --> 00:25:28,560
Speaker 1: he like renounces Marxism and revolution and like entirely in

461
00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:31,120
Speaker 1: favor of performing capitalism in the state from like within.

462
00:25:31,880 --> 00:25:33,600
Speaker 1: And then you know, you have these orthodox Marxists that

463
00:25:33,640 --> 00:25:36,359
Speaker 1: are like led by Kolakotski, whose whole thing is that

464
00:25:36,359 --> 00:25:39,280
Speaker 1: he hates Bernstein, and like the only thing that these

465
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:41,520
Speaker 1: two people that these two groups agree on is that

466
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:44,800
Speaker 1: I the only thing they agree on is the bureacratic

467
00:25:44,840 --> 00:25:46,760
Speaker 1: state planning is the thing you're supposed to be fighting

468
00:25:46,760 --> 00:25:50,280
Speaker 1: for and not like democratic workplaces. And this leads the

469
00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:54,399
Speaker 1: SDP to like they they do a lot of things

470
00:25:54,440 --> 00:25:57,159
Speaker 1: that are like disastrous. Um. One of the things that

471
00:25:57,160 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 1: they wind up doing a lot is like actively working

472
00:26:00,040 --> 00:26:02,720
Speaker 1: with the bosses to like destroy the like workplace autonomy

473
00:26:02,720 --> 00:26:05,280
Speaker 1: for their own unions. So like they'll there'll be things

474
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:07,560
Speaker 1: where it's like like there's like there's a famous examples,

475
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:08,720
Speaker 1: Like there's like a like a I think they're like

476
00:26:08,720 --> 00:26:10,239
Speaker 1: an they're on metal workers and I think they make

477
00:26:10,359 --> 00:26:13,000
Speaker 1: knives or something. And they have a lot of control

478
00:26:13,000 --> 00:26:15,760
Speaker 1: of the production process, right, they can control like how

479
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,200
Speaker 1: much stuff gets produced, the process, like how it works,

480
00:26:18,240 --> 00:26:20,560
Speaker 1: like what they're actually doing. And the STP is like, no,

481
00:26:20,840 --> 00:26:22,960
Speaker 1: this is bad because it's inefficient, and so they like

482
00:26:23,280 --> 00:26:27,679
Speaker 1: basically crush their own union and this this goes in

483
00:26:27,760 --> 00:26:32,240
Speaker 1: really disastrous directions. But we're still the single person who

484
00:26:32,240 --> 00:26:34,919
Speaker 1: becomes like the most obsessed with like the potential of

485
00:26:34,920 --> 00:26:39,520
Speaker 1: bureacutic state planning is uh, one very very very obscure

486
00:26:39,560 --> 00:26:44,560
Speaker 1: guy named Vladimir Elias lenin, who I don't expect anyone

487
00:26:44,560 --> 00:26:48,480
Speaker 1: to have heard of Front of the Pod like front

488
00:26:49,080 --> 00:26:54,679
Speaker 1: I just had len Oh that's funny. Yeah. So, as

489
00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:58,080
Speaker 1: David Greavord points out, Lennon's obsession with like the German

490
00:26:58,119 --> 00:27:02,160
Speaker 1: postal Service is such STI like, Okay, So he writes

491
00:27:02,160 --> 00:27:03,960
Speaker 1: a very famous book about like what a future social

492
00:27:04,040 --> 00:27:05,760
Speaker 1: state is going to be, called State and Revolution, and

493
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:07,520
Speaker 1: like almost all of it is a lie. But he

494
00:27:07,600 --> 00:27:11,480
Speaker 1: also says this in it Um. A witty German social

495
00:27:11,480 --> 00:27:15,679
Speaker 1: democrat of the eighteen seventies called the postal service an

496
00:27:15,720 --> 00:27:18,520
Speaker 1: example of the socialist economic system. This is very true

497
00:27:18,960 --> 00:27:21,840
Speaker 1: at present. The postal service is a business organized along

498
00:27:21,840 --> 00:27:24,440
Speaker 1: the lines of a state capital of monopoly. Bab the

499
00:27:24,440 --> 00:27:26,880
Speaker 1: imperially is the whole thing about imperialism is making everything

500
00:27:26,920 --> 00:27:32,959
Speaker 1: off of this. But so to organize the whole national

501
00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:34,840
Speaker 1: economy on the lines of the postal service, so that

502
00:27:34,960 --> 00:27:38,400
Speaker 1: the technicians, foreim and bookkeepers, as well as all officials

503
00:27:38,400 --> 00:27:42,320
Speaker 1: that received no salaries higher than a workman's wage, all

504
00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,040
Speaker 1: under the control and leadership of the armed proletariat. This

505
00:27:45,119 --> 00:27:47,879
Speaker 1: is our immediate aim. And if you think about what

506
00:27:47,920 --> 00:27:50,080
Speaker 1: this means for about five seconds, right, what he's saying

507
00:27:50,320 --> 00:27:56,480
Speaker 1: is that socialism is the entire economy being planned by

508
00:27:56,520 --> 00:28:03,239
Speaker 1: a bureaucratic state. And and you know this this like

509
00:28:04,560 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: this sits off this like massive series of confrontations with

510
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:08,960
Speaker 1: the part of the workers movement who you know, like

511
00:28:09,440 --> 00:28:13,959
Speaker 1: what to control the work that they do, and you know,

512
00:28:14,000 --> 00:28:16,480
Speaker 1: like make like you know, the people who like who

513
00:28:16,520 --> 00:28:18,560
Speaker 1: think that like the revolution means that they're actually going

514
00:28:18,600 --> 00:28:20,159
Speaker 1: to be able to make decisions over their work and

515
00:28:20,200 --> 00:28:22,680
Speaker 1: not you know, just like work for like a slightly

516
00:28:22,680 --> 00:28:26,600
Speaker 1: different set of bureaucrats. And this struggle between you know

517
00:28:26,760 --> 00:28:29,159
Speaker 1: this the sort of like new socialist bureaucrats and like

518
00:28:29,280 --> 00:28:33,320
Speaker 1: democracy and the workers movement is you know, it's it's

519
00:28:33,320 --> 00:28:34,919
Speaker 1: it's an enormous part of the struggle that happens here.

520
00:28:34,920 --> 00:28:37,080
Speaker 1: And there's there's like another version of it happening between

521
00:28:38,200 --> 00:28:40,920
Speaker 1: the workers movement itself and the capitalist state, like in

522
00:28:41,040 --> 00:28:44,480
Speaker 1: the eighteen eighties, um, the workers movements in like in

523
00:28:44,600 --> 00:28:49,000
Speaker 1: Italy and Germany and like Frances and that's the extent

524
00:28:49,040 --> 00:28:51,600
Speaker 1: that they have. These they form these parties that are

525
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:54,640
Speaker 1: called like states within a state, and you know, these

526
00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: things are these massive networks of these workers institutions. They

527
00:28:57,320 --> 00:28:59,680
Speaker 1: have like free schools, they have workers associations, they have

528
00:28:59,760 --> 00:29:02,680
Speaker 1: like friendly society is. They have libraries, they have theaters,

529
00:29:02,720 --> 00:29:04,520
Speaker 1: they have like unions if co ops, they have like

530
00:29:04,800 --> 00:29:07,920
Speaker 1: neighborhood associations, they have tenant unions in mutual aid societies

531
00:29:08,600 --> 00:29:12,240
Speaker 1: and you know, and these things are all run democratically

532
00:29:12,320 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: by like by by the workers who formed the associations,

533
00:29:16,320 --> 00:29:18,160
Speaker 1: and you know, and like the people who are doing

534
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:21,120
Speaker 1: this are like you know, the hope is that like

535
00:29:21,120 --> 00:29:22,280
Speaker 1: this is going to be the basis for the new

536
00:29:22,320 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: social society. Right. It's like, okay, we we can just

537
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:27,000
Speaker 1: come together and like do this stuff. We can do

538
00:29:27,040 --> 00:29:30,560
Speaker 1: it democratically, and we can administer this stuff ourselves and

539
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:35,560
Speaker 1: the and these things are enormously popular. Um, and you know,

540
00:29:35,640 --> 00:29:39,600
Speaker 1: and this like terrifies the sort of old ruling class. Um.

541
00:29:39,680 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: And Otto von Bismarck, who's the guy basically running the

542
00:29:42,600 --> 00:29:46,600
Speaker 1: German state in this period, like his solution to this

543
00:29:46,720 --> 00:29:49,200
Speaker 1: is to create like bureacratic state run versions of like

544
00:29:49,240 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: all of these things. And so he creates like state

545
00:29:51,520 --> 00:29:55,440
Speaker 1: run library, state run theaters, like state run welfare services,

546
00:29:55,520 --> 00:29:57,960
Speaker 1: and he's using these as as like a replacement to

547
00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,360
Speaker 1: the sort of workers institutions. And he has this great

548
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:03,720
Speaker 1: line retells an American observer quote, My idea was to

549
00:30:03,760 --> 00:30:07,160
Speaker 1: bribe the working classes, or shall I say, to win

550
00:30:07,240 --> 00:30:09,800
Speaker 1: them over, to regard the state as a social institution

551
00:30:09,840 --> 00:30:12,720
Speaker 1: existing for their own sake and invested and interested in

552
00:30:12,760 --> 00:30:16,600
Speaker 1: their welfare. And like this works. This is this is

553
00:30:16,600 --> 00:30:18,560
Speaker 1: an enormous success. This is one of the greatest propagandic

554
00:30:18,640 --> 00:30:22,960
Speaker 1: ures ever because like it's it's so successful in convincing

555
00:30:23,000 --> 00:30:24,600
Speaker 1: people that the thing that they're fighting for is like

556
00:30:24,600 --> 00:30:26,840
Speaker 1: the state bureaucratic version of this thing and not the

557
00:30:26,920 --> 00:30:29,680
Speaker 1: version where they do it themselves. That like when when

558
00:30:29,680 --> 00:30:33,479
Speaker 1: the socialists like take power, that they confuse Bismarcks, like

559
00:30:33,800 --> 00:30:36,360
Speaker 1: literally the welfare state bribe thing that he liked made

560
00:30:36,400 --> 00:30:38,280
Speaker 1: to buy off the movements, Like they confused that with

561
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: socialism itself. And like to this day everyone believes this.

562
00:30:41,840 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's I don't know, I lose my

563
00:30:45,840 --> 00:30:49,320
Speaker 1: mind constantly over this because all of these things that

564
00:30:49,320 --> 00:30:52,480
Speaker 1: Bismarck developed, like specifically to destroy the socialist movement. Everyone

565
00:30:52,520 --> 00:30:55,640
Speaker 1: was like, oh my god, this is socialism. It's like no, no,

566
00:30:56,040 --> 00:31:01,560
Speaker 1: please stop, and you know, and this is really effective,

567
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:04,280
Speaker 1: particularly on the leadership of the movement. But like the

568
00:31:04,320 --> 00:31:08,800
Speaker 1: actual like people in these parties, like India's movements, don't

569
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:10,760
Speaker 1: forget it. And and as as the sort of like

570
00:31:10,760 --> 00:31:12,760
Speaker 1: twenty century drawst were closed and you get like the

571
00:31:13,240 --> 00:31:15,200
Speaker 1: so as as the nineteenth century draws were closed, and

572
00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 1: you get like the twentieth century. The workers who are

573
00:31:18,200 --> 00:31:23,240
Speaker 1: like doing the uprisings are not sort of like like

574
00:31:23,280 --> 00:31:27,080
Speaker 1: the you know, the workers who are doing the uprisings

575
00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:29,520
Speaker 1: haven't like drinking the kool aid. And the thing that

576
00:31:29,560 --> 00:31:31,640
Speaker 1: they do immediately when they start doing uprisings is they

577
00:31:31,640 --> 00:31:35,920
Speaker 1: start building these democratic institutions, but particularly workers councils um

578
00:31:36,080 --> 00:31:38,040
Speaker 1: the most famous of these are like other workers councils

579
00:31:38,040 --> 00:31:40,720
Speaker 1: that form sort of spontaneously in the Russian revolutions of

580
00:31:40,800 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: nineteen seventeen, these are like this is actually like this

581
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:46,760
Speaker 1: is what like the they're called soviets because soviet is

582
00:31:46,800 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: just like the word for council in Russian. And these

583
00:31:49,240 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 1: these things are originally these like ad hoc strike committees,

584
00:31:53,000 --> 00:31:55,440
Speaker 1: and then they eventually become these like formalized elect like

585
00:31:55,520 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 1: elected bodies of representatives from like the various factories who

586
00:31:58,160 --> 00:32:00,520
Speaker 1: are like coordinating a strike and okay, so let you know,

587
00:32:00,640 --> 00:32:06,080
Speaker 1: five they lose and they all die. But in seventeen, uh,

588
00:32:06,120 --> 00:32:09,040
Speaker 1: they do this again and they form the Soviets again,

589
00:32:09,080 --> 00:32:12,800
Speaker 1: and this time the councils start to take like a

590
00:32:12,920 --> 00:32:16,840
Speaker 1: larger role in coordinating production directly and you know, coordinating

591
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 1: between different factories and industries, and they turn into this

592
00:32:20,320 --> 00:32:23,800
Speaker 1: sort of like counterpower thing to the new government. And

593
00:32:24,160 --> 00:32:27,120
Speaker 1: this kicks off this open period of warfare that stretches

594
00:32:27,160 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: like literally from Italy to Argentina between the different socialist

595
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,120
Speaker 1: factions who like people like the different factions of this

596
00:32:34,160 --> 00:32:37,640
Speaker 1: movement who want democracy in the factory, and this like

597
00:32:37,800 --> 00:32:40,440
Speaker 1: a lot newly formed like anti democratic alliance of like

598
00:32:40,440 --> 00:32:44,560
Speaker 1: social Democrats, Bolsheviks and capitalists who like you know, are

599
00:32:44,640 --> 00:32:46,760
Speaker 1: like okay, well some of them are in favor of

600
00:32:46,800 --> 00:32:49,000
Speaker 1: like you can have Okay, there's a whole range of

601
00:32:49,000 --> 00:32:51,720
Speaker 1: this thing, right, Like. The thing that unites all of

602
00:32:51,760 --> 00:32:54,400
Speaker 1: these movements, the social Democrats, the Bolsheviks, the capitalists and

603
00:32:54,440 --> 00:32:58,360
Speaker 1: later the fascist is that they like emphatically like do

604
00:32:58,400 --> 00:33:01,360
Speaker 1: not want democracy in the factor, and they're willing to

605
00:33:01,360 --> 00:33:03,440
Speaker 1: put aside their differences to make sure it doesn't happen.

606
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:06,360
Speaker 1: But you know, there's still there's still a huge fight

607
00:33:06,400 --> 00:33:08,959
Speaker 1: that happens here between between nineteen nine twenty, you get

608
00:33:09,000 --> 00:33:12,959
Speaker 1: works councils in we get workers councils in Germany, Poland, Austria, Ukraine,

609
00:33:13,040 --> 00:33:17,160
Speaker 1: Ireland and Ireland. There's there's these like two giant revolts

610
00:33:17,160 --> 00:33:22,040
Speaker 1: by cynicalist workers unions in Brazil and Argentina, and these

611
00:33:22,080 --> 00:33:24,640
Speaker 1: all get crushed um in Italy. Italy has like one

612
00:33:24,640 --> 00:33:27,600
Speaker 1: of the most intense conflicts between these like a lot

613
00:33:27,640 --> 00:33:30,120
Speaker 1: of cynicalist in the Italian state, and they have this

614
00:33:30,200 --> 00:33:33,000
Speaker 1: this really famous like set of factory occupations where instead

615
00:33:33,040 --> 00:33:35,320
Speaker 1: of like so like before those people would go on strike,

616
00:33:35,400 --> 00:33:37,200
Speaker 1: right you go watch Rick and you leave your factory.

617
00:33:38,640 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 1: And in Italy they were like, okay, well what if

618
00:33:40,520 --> 00:33:42,200
Speaker 1: we just stayed in the factory and took it over

619
00:33:42,240 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 1: so that they couldn't like just like a restarted production

620
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,600
Speaker 1: with scabs, and we now control the factory. And there's

621
00:33:47,600 --> 00:33:50,040
Speaker 1: this huge wave of it in in Italy in the

622
00:33:50,080 --> 00:33:56,080
Speaker 1: late nineteen writeen like teens and early twenties, and you

623
00:33:56,120 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: know it looks like for a little for like a bit,

624
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:00,760
Speaker 1: it like it really looks they're going to bread down

625
00:34:00,800 --> 00:34:04,680
Speaker 1: the government, but the factory occupations get crushed. But they don't.

626
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:06,360
Speaker 1: They don't get crushed by the government. They get crushed

627
00:34:06,400 --> 00:34:08,400
Speaker 1: by the Italian Socialist Party and like their union, the

628
00:34:08,400 --> 00:34:12,600
Speaker 1: General Confederation of Labor, and like this is how fascism

629
00:34:12,600 --> 00:34:14,279
Speaker 1: wins in Italy, like to a large extent. It's that

630
00:34:14,360 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: like when when like you know, and it happens in

631
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,200
Speaker 1: Germany too, It's like when when when when the sort

632
00:34:20,200 --> 00:34:22,799
Speaker 1: of the social democrats and the capitalists are faced with

633
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,840
Speaker 1: this possibility that like workers could take over the factories,

634
00:34:26,440 --> 00:34:29,600
Speaker 1: the social Democrats turn on them and just kill them all.

635
00:34:29,960 --> 00:34:31,799
Speaker 1: And the problem with that is that like okay, well

636
00:34:31,840 --> 00:34:33,600
Speaker 1: who who who who do you do the killing with

637
00:34:33,680 --> 00:34:36,040
Speaker 1: the answer is the fascists, and then the social Democrats

638
00:34:36,160 --> 00:34:39,600
Speaker 1: like themselves all get exterminated by the fascist It's it's

639
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:42,399
Speaker 1: this like you know, it is it is a is

640
00:34:42,239 --> 00:34:44,200
Speaker 1: A is a terrible cycle that we're going to see

641
00:34:44,280 --> 00:34:49,719
Speaker 1: like literally over and over and over again. Um yeah

642
00:34:49,760 --> 00:34:55,359
Speaker 1: it's bad. Um that sounds not great? Yeah yeah do

643
00:34:55,360 --> 00:34:58,600
Speaker 1: do do you know who else will slaughter your your

644
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:05,799
Speaker 1: factory council? Oh? Oh, I actually know this one. Mm alright, Carrison, go,

645
00:35:05,960 --> 00:35:08,839
Speaker 1: we have a few options here. There is are our

646
00:35:08,880 --> 00:35:11,560
Speaker 1: good friends at the Washington State Patrol. Um, if you're

647
00:35:11,560 --> 00:35:13,200
Speaker 1: trying to set up a highway business next to the

648
00:35:13,280 --> 00:35:16,920
Speaker 1: highway and run via workers, cancel State Patrol come up,

649
00:35:16,920 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: be like not on this highway, You're done. Um probably

650
00:35:20,920 --> 00:35:34,560
Speaker 1: also like Amazon or something who knows. Yeah, and we're

651
00:35:34,640 --> 00:35:41,080
Speaker 1: back to see you know, okay, okay, we are back

652
00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:43,480
Speaker 1: to see like the worst defeats that they're going to have,

653
00:35:43,640 --> 00:35:47,240
Speaker 1: that that like the people who want like a factory

654
00:35:47,239 --> 00:35:49,319
Speaker 1: council are going to have in this period, which for

655
00:35:49,560 --> 00:35:51,840
Speaker 1: once actually has nothing to do with Amazon or the

656
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:56,520
Speaker 1: capitalists whatsoever, which is that like the worst balling they're

657
00:35:56,520 --> 00:36:00,120
Speaker 1: gonna get is from Lennon and the Bolsheviks, who I

658
00:36:00,600 --> 00:36:02,600
Speaker 1: don't know how many people sort of like know the

659
00:36:02,640 --> 00:36:05,360
Speaker 1: history of the Russian Revolution, but like the factory councils

660
00:36:05,400 --> 00:36:08,319
Speaker 1: are the people who like basically put the Bolsheviks in

661
00:36:08,320 --> 00:36:11,200
Speaker 1: power in the first place, like to a large extent,

662
00:36:11,400 --> 00:36:12,879
Speaker 1: like there there's a lot there are the people who

663
00:36:13,000 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: like were the shock troops of this and like literally

664
00:36:16,040 --> 00:36:18,600
Speaker 1: the moment Lendin takes power, she starts undermining the Soviets.

665
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:22,920
Speaker 1: Um he publishes this thing, like like like three or

666
00:36:22,960 --> 00:36:25,880
Speaker 1: four days after that Chrial revolution, he publishes his thing

667
00:36:26,000 --> 00:36:28,200
Speaker 1: on the draft to cree on workers control, which is like,

668
00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:31,399
Speaker 1: you know, he he basically is like he's he's trying

669
00:36:31,440 --> 00:36:34,200
Speaker 1: to like shift power from these councils to the Bolshet

670
00:36:34,239 --> 00:36:37,920
Speaker 1: party in the state. And this doesn't really work initially

671
00:36:38,000 --> 00:36:43,279
Speaker 1: because these groups are like pretty powerful. But in you know,

672
00:36:43,320 --> 00:36:47,080
Speaker 1: he publicly Lenin's like, no, we draw drive power from

673
00:36:47,120 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: the Soviets, like where where we're the people who support

674
00:36:49,880 --> 00:36:52,200
Speaker 1: these councils. But then like Lennon's, he's like shipping away

675
00:36:52,239 --> 00:36:55,440
Speaker 1: from them. And then in nineteen eighteen he writes this thing.

676
00:36:55,520 --> 00:36:58,759
Speaker 1: He writes this this this paragraph from the Immediate Task

677
00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:02,000
Speaker 1: the Soviet Government, which is like one of the wildest

678
00:37:02,000 --> 00:37:05,240
Speaker 1: things I've ever read in my life. I'm just saying

679
00:37:05,360 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: a lot. It's it's wild, it is She's okay. Unquestioning

680
00:37:11,760 --> 00:37:15,560
Speaker 1: submission to a single will is absolutely necessary for the

681
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,080
Speaker 1: success of labor processes that are based on large scale

682
00:37:18,200 --> 00:37:21,320
Speaker 1: machine industry. Today, the revolution demands and the interests of

683
00:37:21,360 --> 00:37:24,719
Speaker 1: socialism that the masses, unquestioning lee obey the single will

684
00:37:24,760 --> 00:37:29,239
Speaker 1: of the leaders of the labor process, which is like

685
00:37:30,320 --> 00:37:36,200
Speaker 1: what what how how about you explain to our good

686
00:37:36,239 --> 00:37:39,400
Speaker 1: viewers why that is so bonkers? Like some of them

687
00:37:39,480 --> 00:37:42,280
Speaker 1: might just hear that and be like, oh leftist words cool,

688
00:37:42,440 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: moving on, even just the first two words unquestioning, Yeah,

689
00:37:46,480 --> 00:37:49,239
Speaker 1: makes me like that, but like a questioning submission. The

690
00:37:49,239 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 1: whole thing about like the masses must unquestionably obey the

691
00:37:52,520 --> 00:37:56,160
Speaker 1: will of the single leader. Like what this is like,

692
00:37:56,840 --> 00:38:00,319
Speaker 1: like what is happening? This is you know, the and

693
00:38:00,480 --> 00:38:03,279
Speaker 1: the thing that's happening here is that Lennon. Lennon is

694
00:38:03,320 --> 00:38:07,719
Speaker 1: being really candid about what it means for there to

695
00:38:07,760 --> 00:38:10,840
Speaker 1: be a boss, Like what it means for there to

696
00:38:10,880 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: be someone who's position is above you that can order

697
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:15,080
Speaker 1: you to do literally whatever they want, and if you

698
00:38:15,120 --> 00:38:18,960
Speaker 1: don't obey them, like bad things happen and you start

699
00:38:19,120 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: or get shot. Yeah, she's she's she's incredibly candid about this,

700
00:38:23,040 --> 00:38:25,239
Speaker 1: right like this, this, this, this is what like having

701
00:38:25,280 --> 00:38:27,319
Speaker 1: a boss means. It means like question exhibition to the

702
00:38:27,320 --> 00:38:30,040
Speaker 1: single will of the leader, which is like this, this

703
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:35,520
Speaker 1: is how I talked about Sophie all the time. Yeah, well,

704
00:38:35,960 --> 00:38:40,239
Speaker 1: shaking her head, I'm with you, Sophie campaign scare said, Yeah,

705
00:38:40,239 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: you're welcome. Whatever you say, Sophie, thanks scare God. I'm

706
00:38:50,040 --> 00:38:53,719
Speaker 1: thinking about this. There's this line. Um, it's sort of

707
00:38:53,719 --> 00:38:56,000
Speaker 1: sententially related to the story. I read this thing once

708
00:38:56,040 --> 00:38:58,400
Speaker 1: about so the workers who took over the Surban actually

709
00:38:58,400 --> 00:39:01,120
Speaker 1: think it was the students shore of the a bunch

710
00:39:01,160 --> 00:39:03,759
Speaker 1: of students like take over this, uh, like like the

711
00:39:04,520 --> 00:39:09,000
Speaker 1: like the like the big academy in in Paris, and

712
00:39:09,239 --> 00:39:12,360
Speaker 1: they send this like I think it's a telegram to

713
00:39:12,560 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 1: like the Chinese embassy, and like the end of it

714
00:39:15,840 --> 00:39:19,280
Speaker 1: is I think, if I'm remembering the exact words correctly,

715
00:39:19,400 --> 00:39:23,120
Speaker 1: it's uh, the revolution will not be complete until the

716
00:39:23,160 --> 00:39:25,440
Speaker 1: revolution will not be complete until the last capitalist is

717
00:39:25,520 --> 00:39:34,040
Speaker 1: hung with the entrails of the last bureaucrat. Ye was wild.

718
00:39:35,000 --> 00:39:37,160
Speaker 1: That's that's the thing this brought to mind for some reason.

719
00:39:37,520 --> 00:39:41,040
Speaker 1: But you know, I mean going back to sort of

720
00:39:41,080 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: Lenin and his like unquestioning like submission to the single well,

721
00:39:44,040 --> 00:39:46,440
Speaker 1: like he's more candid about what like one man rule

722
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:48,319
Speaker 1: in the factory or like having a boss you have

723
00:39:48,400 --> 00:39:51,839
Speaker 1: to obey like means, but the system is describing like

724
00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:56,000
Speaker 1: isn't different than any other political system, like Bolshevik rule

725
00:39:56,000 --> 00:39:59,439
Speaker 1: in the factory like isn't really different than capital, social

726
00:39:59,480 --> 00:40:02,600
Speaker 1: democratic or fascist rule. And you know, the movement for

727
00:40:02,640 --> 00:40:06,520
Speaker 1: democracy and the factory as you know, as as as

728
00:40:06,560 --> 00:40:08,759
Speaker 1: these people are crossed, especially in across the nation twenty

729
00:40:08,840 --> 00:40:11,600
Speaker 1: one like it from for Democracy in the factory is

730
00:40:11,600 --> 00:40:14,399
Speaker 1: faced by four implacable enemies who are willing to put

731
00:40:14,400 --> 00:40:16,920
Speaker 1: aside all of their ideological differences to ensure that like

732
00:40:17,480 --> 00:40:22,480
Speaker 1: no one ever like gets to control their workplace. And

733
00:40:22,520 --> 00:40:24,200
Speaker 1: you know, and as as the twenties blend into early

734
00:40:24,280 --> 00:40:26,279
Speaker 1: nine thirties, like the movement seemed to have disappeared, but

735
00:40:26,560 --> 00:40:29,719
Speaker 1: they didn't. They absolutely didn't. Even though even though they

736
00:40:29,719 --> 00:40:33,080
Speaker 1: got murdered by the fascist, the communists, social democrats and

737
00:40:33,120 --> 00:40:36,000
Speaker 1: the capitalists, They're gonna be back next episode to do

738
00:40:36,120 --> 00:40:40,720
Speaker 1: like twelve more revolutions and yeah that that that's that

739
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,000
Speaker 1: that that that that come come come back tomorrow for

740
00:40:43,080 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 1: us talking about like why these revolutions happens, what the

741
00:40:46,480 --> 00:40:49,600
Speaker 1: ruling class did to stop them. And then yeah, the

742
00:40:49,600 --> 00:40:51,799
Speaker 1: the lead up to Chianamen Square to see the sort

743
00:40:51,800 --> 00:40:55,520
Speaker 1: of like the final standard the Chinese working class, and yeah,

744
00:40:55,640 --> 00:40:59,560
Speaker 1: like get to what Tianeman actually was, what a Cliff

745
00:40:59,600 --> 00:41:07,120
Speaker 1: Sanker It could Happen here as a production of cool

746
00:41:07,200 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: Zone Media. Well more podcasts through cool zone Media. Visit

747
00:41:10,160 --> 00:41:12,560
Speaker 1: our website cool zone media dot com, or check us

748
00:41:12,560 --> 00:41:14,880
Speaker 1: out on the I Heart Radio app, Apple Podcasts, or

749
00:41:14,920 --> 00:41:17,920
Speaker 1: wherever you listen to podcasts. You can find sources for

750
00:41:17,960 --> 00:41:20,720
Speaker 1: It could Happen Here, updated monthly at cool zone Media

751
00:41:20,800 --> 00:41:23,240
Speaker 1: dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,