1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:04,680 Speaker 1: From UFOs to psychic powers and government conspiracies. History is 2 00:00:04,800 --> 00:00:09,119 Speaker 1: riddled with unexplained events. You can turn back now or 3 00:00:09,200 --> 00:00:12,079 Speaker 1: learn the stuff they don't want you to know. A 4 00:00:12,240 --> 00:00:26,120 Speaker 1: production of My Heart Radio. Hello, welcome back to the show. 5 00:00:26,239 --> 00:00:29,440 Speaker 1: My name is Matt Noel. It's not here right now, 6 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:33,159 Speaker 1: but we'll be returning soon. They call me Ben. We 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,640 Speaker 1: are joined as always with our super producer Paul Mission 8 00:00:36,640 --> 00:00:40,760 Speaker 1: control decond. Most importantly, you are you. You are here, 9 00:00:40,960 --> 00:00:44,080 Speaker 1: and that makes this the stuff they don't want you 10 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,800 Speaker 1: to know. Getting on the other side of that bargain 11 00:00:47,840 --> 00:00:50,879 Speaker 1: with a sea which Matt and my voice is slowly 12 00:00:50,960 --> 00:00:54,639 Speaker 1: returning like the tide. Uh, maybe you have to low? 13 00:00:54,760 --> 00:00:56,120 Speaker 1: Do you have to get on the other side. I 14 00:00:56,200 --> 00:00:59,600 Speaker 1: kind of like this side side takes man. It's like 15 00:01:00,040 --> 00:01:06,520 Speaker 1: wildly ominous, but just smoldering in general. Thanks so much, Matt. 16 00:01:06,600 --> 00:01:09,840 Speaker 1: I think this does also answer the question that we 17 00:01:09,880 --> 00:01:14,959 Speaker 1: get sometimes and reviews, which is is Ben or whatever 18 00:01:15,000 --> 00:01:18,880 Speaker 1: they call him, is he purposely making his voice lower? No, 19 00:01:19,240 --> 00:01:22,040 Speaker 1: this is like this is the sick voice. The other 20 00:01:22,720 --> 00:01:27,760 Speaker 1: weirdly deep voices also my regular voice. But but we 21 00:01:27,800 --> 00:01:32,080 Speaker 1: could use some ominous tones. I would I would pose 22 00:01:32,120 --> 00:01:36,119 Speaker 1: it for this and some of our upcoming episodes. Matt, 23 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:38,920 Speaker 1: this is one that you and I have gone back 24 00:01:38,959 --> 00:01:43,319 Speaker 1: and forth on for for a while now. Because we 25 00:01:43,560 --> 00:01:49,360 Speaker 1: both attended various halls of higher learning. We have friends 26 00:01:49,400 --> 00:01:53,200 Speaker 1: and acquaintances who are pH d s or post docs 27 00:01:53,400 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: or active professors. Um. All my friends who are tenured professors. Two, 28 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:03,440 Speaker 1: to be clear, are people who taught me in the past. 29 00:02:03,760 --> 00:02:06,840 Speaker 1: You know, I have it. None of my friends by 30 00:02:06,880 --> 00:02:09,519 Speaker 1: age have actually made tenure yet. And it's a very 31 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,480 Speaker 1: rare thing for people of this generation. Oh yeah, for 32 00:02:13,480 --> 00:02:16,920 Speaker 1: for certain, and even many many individuals who have pursued 33 00:02:16,919 --> 00:02:20,280 Speaker 1: a master's degree, you know, and sometimes even a bachelor's 34 00:02:20,320 --> 00:02:24,359 Speaker 1: have attempted to publish in a journal, one often successfully. 35 00:02:24,880 --> 00:02:28,040 Speaker 1: For I will just put this out there. For me, 36 00:02:28,120 --> 00:02:32,600 Speaker 1: it's generally a frustration as we're researching these episodes of 37 00:02:32,680 --> 00:02:36,359 Speaker 1: not having access to journals or an article that I 38 00:02:36,440 --> 00:02:39,320 Speaker 1: want to read because I don't pay for access, and 39 00:02:39,400 --> 00:02:42,080 Speaker 1: I kind of don't want to pay for access. Uh. 40 00:02:42,639 --> 00:02:45,240 Speaker 1: Just any encountering any paywall these days is a bit 41 00:02:45,240 --> 00:02:48,160 Speaker 1: of a frustration for me, um, because when I think 42 00:02:48,160 --> 00:02:51,360 Speaker 1: about recurring payments, I just it makes my heart hurt. 43 00:02:52,080 --> 00:02:54,840 Speaker 1: But yeah, but That's that's generally what I've been talking 44 00:02:54,880 --> 00:02:57,160 Speaker 1: about when it comes to this subject. Why do I 45 00:02:57,160 --> 00:03:00,720 Speaker 1: got paid for all these articles? Right exactly? And you 46 00:03:00,760 --> 00:03:04,359 Speaker 1: know you might hear what Matt just said and think, well, 47 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,360 Speaker 1: you have to pay people for their work, so be 48 00:03:07,400 --> 00:03:10,680 Speaker 1: in a very real way already have And if you 49 00:03:10,720 --> 00:03:13,240 Speaker 1: were listening to the United States, odds are you have 50 00:03:13,480 --> 00:03:18,160 Speaker 1: to today we are talking about something called academic journals. 51 00:03:18,400 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 1: If you have attended college, or if you never went 52 00:03:21,760 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: to college and you pursued various trades instead, you're probably 53 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:32,440 Speaker 1: still aware of these things academic journals, scholarly journals, trade publications. 54 00:03:33,240 --> 00:03:36,840 Speaker 1: For some of us, the phrase conjures up memories of 55 00:03:36,880 --> 00:03:41,760 Speaker 1: a professor hitting home the importance of reading legitimate scholarship 56 00:03:41,960 --> 00:03:46,000 Speaker 1: on a paper. UM. I also remember many of many 57 00:03:46,000 --> 00:03:49,640 Speaker 1: of my professors, the really good ones, were actually somewhat 58 00:03:50,080 --> 00:03:53,920 Speaker 1: rogue ish, and they would say, all right, the you know, 59 00:03:54,160 --> 00:03:58,280 Speaker 1: the suits at the university aren't gonna give us subscription 60 00:03:58,360 --> 00:04:02,200 Speaker 1: access to this, so I printed it out. Don't tell anyone. 61 00:04:02,720 --> 00:04:04,760 Speaker 1: And that's why I'm not going to reveal their names. 62 00:04:04,760 --> 00:04:07,360 Speaker 1: But I had plenty of I had plenty of classes 63 00:04:07,440 --> 00:04:12,119 Speaker 1: where um, instead of a textbook this, you know, professor, 64 00:04:12,240 --> 00:04:15,720 Speaker 1: they would have they would have a binder which was 65 00:04:15,760 --> 00:04:19,120 Speaker 1: just the photo copies of the journals, and then we 66 00:04:19,200 --> 00:04:22,599 Speaker 1: had to go and and photocopy. I hope, I hope, 67 00:04:22,640 --> 00:04:25,920 Speaker 1: I'm not blowing anybody's spot up. But I always appreciated that. 68 00:04:26,320 --> 00:04:28,640 Speaker 1: But for other people, you know, you might hear the 69 00:04:28,640 --> 00:04:33,000 Speaker 1: phrase academic journal and think of what a pain in 70 00:04:33,000 --> 00:04:35,919 Speaker 1: the butt it was for you to have to spend 71 00:04:36,000 --> 00:04:38,720 Speaker 1: so much time working on your own research and then 72 00:04:38,760 --> 00:04:42,200 Speaker 1: hoping against hope that you could get it published because 73 00:04:42,240 --> 00:04:45,000 Speaker 1: you had to. But then for a lot of people, 74 00:04:45,600 --> 00:04:48,599 Speaker 1: I think for many of us, you might start dozing 75 00:04:48,640 --> 00:04:50,560 Speaker 1: off as soon as you hear the term, and you're 76 00:04:50,600 --> 00:04:55,680 Speaker 1: haunted by these visions of these endless bibliographies and and 77 00:04:56,680 --> 00:04:59,840 Speaker 1: authority figures telling you over and over that you have 78 00:05:00,000 --> 00:05:03,800 Speaker 1: have to learn this specific format for citation in l 79 00:05:03,880 --> 00:05:08,120 Speaker 1: A in one class, a p A in another. Right. Yeah, 80 00:05:08,440 --> 00:05:12,000 Speaker 1: But for me, it's thinking about vocabulary that is fully 81 00:05:12,080 --> 00:05:16,520 Speaker 1: outside of my understanding, especially as a lay person coming 82 00:05:16,560 --> 00:05:20,040 Speaker 1: to these journals. If I try and dive deeply enough, 83 00:05:20,360 --> 00:05:24,760 Speaker 1: I just get super confused, super fast. My brain doesn't 84 00:05:24,800 --> 00:05:29,800 Speaker 1: even really taken the ideas because every seven words, there's 85 00:05:29,839 --> 00:05:31,479 Speaker 1: a brand new word I have to look up that 86 00:05:31,560 --> 00:05:33,960 Speaker 1: I don't know what it is. So then I lose 87 00:05:34,080 --> 00:05:35,680 Speaker 1: the train of thought, and then I'm just like, all right, 88 00:05:36,040 --> 00:05:39,400 Speaker 1: I'm gonna read something else. You know, It's it's funny 89 00:05:39,440 --> 00:05:43,520 Speaker 1: you say that, because I had a moment a long 90 00:05:43,600 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: time ago reading scholarly journals, scholarly articles about James Joyce, 91 00:05:50,760 --> 00:05:52,880 Speaker 1: and it was in it was a class where we 92 00:05:53,000 --> 00:05:58,400 Speaker 1: only studied you list Ulysses and Finnegan's Wake, and James 93 00:05:58,440 --> 00:06:04,440 Speaker 1: Joyce is famously um. He's like a heavy metal guitar virtuoso. 94 00:06:04,520 --> 00:06:07,080 Speaker 1: He's the kind of he does the writer version of 95 00:06:07,120 --> 00:06:09,560 Speaker 1: a thirty minute solo and a song that could have 96 00:06:09,600 --> 00:06:12,239 Speaker 1: been six minutes where you're like, yeah, this is really good, 97 00:06:12,279 --> 00:06:14,960 Speaker 1: but is it? Why are you just you just want 98 00:06:15,040 --> 00:06:19,240 Speaker 1: us to know that you can do this nice? I guess, 99 00:06:19,680 --> 00:06:23,359 Speaker 1: but um. But so that was compounded by reading a 100 00:06:23,440 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 1: guy who always throws in, you know, the most obscure 101 00:06:28,040 --> 00:06:33,880 Speaker 1: things possible, written about in the very rarefied language of academia. 102 00:06:34,160 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: So I feel you're paying matt um for many people. 103 00:06:37,120 --> 00:06:40,480 Speaker 1: You know, reading it doesn't flow, and you don't necessarily 104 00:06:40,520 --> 00:06:43,320 Speaker 1: read this stuff for enjoyment. You read it for education 105 00:06:43,960 --> 00:06:48,720 Speaker 1: and um ideally to inform your own research. So whatever 106 00:06:48,760 --> 00:06:52,400 Speaker 1: your experience, whether you know about these things or you've 107 00:06:52,480 --> 00:06:57,440 Speaker 1: never encountered one, make no mistake, this is a huge, 108 00:06:57,680 --> 00:07:00,880 Speaker 1: huge business and that means of gore. There is a 109 00:07:00,960 --> 00:07:06,080 Speaker 1: dark side to this story. So first, here are the facts. 110 00:07:06,240 --> 00:07:10,960 Speaker 1: Riddle me this, Matt. What is an academic journal? Is 111 00:07:10,960 --> 00:07:17,800 Speaker 1: it a magazine? No, no dumb questions? Yeah, sure, yeah. 112 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:21,000 Speaker 1: I think about every academic journal as its own version 113 00:07:21,040 --> 00:07:24,160 Speaker 1: of the onion. For sure it is. I mean you 114 00:07:24,160 --> 00:07:26,800 Speaker 1: can at least think about it like a magazine. Right. 115 00:07:27,320 --> 00:07:30,120 Speaker 1: Whenever something is in an academic journal and you find one, 116 00:07:30,600 --> 00:07:35,200 Speaker 1: it has a specific theme, let's say, an overarching There's 117 00:07:35,200 --> 00:07:38,920 Speaker 1: an overarching theme to every article that's published in a 118 00:07:38,920 --> 00:07:43,640 Speaker 1: specific journal. And that's because journals are specialized very much 119 00:07:43,640 --> 00:07:46,760 Speaker 1: on purpose, and there are a ton of them. Uh 120 00:07:46,880 --> 00:07:48,640 Speaker 1: so you think, like, for me, it was video game 121 00:07:48,680 --> 00:07:51,600 Speaker 1: Magazine's grown up as a kid, always read the latest 122 00:07:51,640 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: Nintendo Power and I was always about it, and uh 123 00:07:54,280 --> 00:07:56,920 Speaker 1: it was there was no there were no there were 124 00:07:56,920 --> 00:07:59,320 Speaker 1: no articles in there that didn't have some kind of 125 00:07:59,360 --> 00:08:02,760 Speaker 1: tangential connection to video games. You think about the same 126 00:08:02,800 --> 00:08:06,400 Speaker 1: thing with m I mean, I mean I would just 127 00:08:06,440 --> 00:08:10,800 Speaker 1: throw things out here. But specific uh, chemistry journals. I 128 00:08:10,840 --> 00:08:12,840 Speaker 1: mean there's you know, there's a journal for chemistry. There 129 00:08:12,920 --> 00:08:15,360 Speaker 1: there are several, but then there's you know, you break 130 00:08:15,400 --> 00:08:18,360 Speaker 1: that chemistry down and here's the journal on phosphates. I 131 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:22,160 Speaker 1: don't know if that's true or not, but essentially, essentially 132 00:08:22,200 --> 00:08:25,320 Speaker 1: that Um, that's the way I think about academic journals, 133 00:08:25,360 --> 00:08:32,000 Speaker 1: like a very specialized magazine specifically for academic research. Yeah. Well, 134 00:08:32,040 --> 00:08:36,280 Speaker 1: put you know, they like any other magazine, they publish 135 00:08:36,360 --> 00:08:40,120 Speaker 1: at regular intervals, often you know, maybe an annual edition 136 00:08:40,200 --> 00:08:44,160 Speaker 1: or maybe quarterly, meaning four times a year. Uh. They're 137 00:08:44,200 --> 00:08:48,400 Speaker 1: relevant to a specific audience, and the audience often pays 138 00:08:48,440 --> 00:08:50,840 Speaker 1: a subscription fee, like a lot of people did for 139 00:08:51,040 --> 00:08:53,719 Speaker 1: Nintendo Power back in the day. Um, but you can 140 00:08:53,760 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: also buy specific issues or now in the world of 141 00:08:57,920 --> 00:09:01,800 Speaker 1: online reading, you can buy access to specific articles or 142 00:09:01,840 --> 00:09:06,480 Speaker 1: stories ala cart So I don't want all four issues 143 00:09:06,800 --> 00:09:14,680 Speaker 1: of Epistemological Aerodynamics or whatever, I just want the one story. However, 144 00:09:15,160 --> 00:09:18,800 Speaker 1: one important difference that I think we're both getting toward 145 00:09:18,880 --> 00:09:23,880 Speaker 1: here is that these journals have higher standards in theory 146 00:09:23,960 --> 00:09:27,600 Speaker 1: than a lot of commonplace periodicals. They're not meant to 147 00:09:27,679 --> 00:09:30,920 Speaker 1: be for everyone. It's it would be weird if they were. 148 00:09:31,360 --> 00:09:36,160 Speaker 1: They focus on the scholarship relating to particular academic disciplines, 149 00:09:36,520 --> 00:09:40,559 Speaker 1: and like you said, Matt, they can be cartoonishly specific. 150 00:09:41,120 --> 00:09:46,040 Speaker 1: We looked up a a bunch of academic journal titles 151 00:09:46,080 --> 00:09:50,120 Speaker 1: because they get really fun. We're talking about things like 152 00:09:50,160 --> 00:09:55,720 Speaker 1: the International Journal of Dairy Technology, the i E e E. 153 00:09:55,880 --> 00:10:01,959 Speaker 1: Transactions on Advanced Packaging, or of course, the International Journal 154 00:10:02,160 --> 00:10:04,760 Speaker 1: of Control, which I have to say was probably a 155 00:10:04,840 --> 00:10:07,679 Speaker 1: bit of a disappointment for both of us. Yeah. I 156 00:10:07,960 --> 00:10:09,360 Speaker 1: really thought it was going to be just about that 157 00:10:09,400 --> 00:10:12,280 Speaker 1: one video game, which is one of my favorites. But 158 00:10:12,360 --> 00:10:15,120 Speaker 1: it's not. Thanks for turning me onto that Alan Wake 159 00:10:15,200 --> 00:10:17,080 Speaker 1: two is coming out, by the way, so there's that 160 00:10:17,360 --> 00:10:20,520 Speaker 1: Oh my god, Oh my god. But but yes, been 161 00:10:20,640 --> 00:10:24,680 Speaker 1: the International Journal of Control focuses on things like delay systems, 162 00:10:24,840 --> 00:10:30,040 Speaker 1: adaptive controls, aircraft and aerospace controls, social systems, robotics and 163 00:10:30,160 --> 00:10:34,880 Speaker 1: u V weight social systems, controlling social systems. Oh god, 164 00:10:35,000 --> 00:10:40,120 Speaker 1: what upon we've we've we've stumbled upon some worthwhile reading. 165 00:10:40,240 --> 00:10:43,120 Speaker 1: I think, oh yeah, I think so, oh, you know, 166 00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:50,880 Speaker 1: we almost forgot here ben the journal known only as Pain. Ah, yes, Pain, 167 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:54,280 Speaker 1: who is We were talking about this off air who 168 00:10:54,400 --> 00:10:57,839 Speaker 1: started a journal and said they all gone to call 169 00:10:57,920 --> 00:11:04,760 Speaker 1: a simple pen all pain, all encompassing pain, always and forever. 170 00:11:06,720 --> 00:11:09,680 Speaker 1: I know, And this is a real thing and the 171 00:11:09,800 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: name is just pain. So there's another thing, right, So 172 00:11:18,240 --> 00:11:23,000 Speaker 1: there's very specific there for a specific audience. And unlike 173 00:11:23,040 --> 00:11:27,640 Speaker 1: a lot of pop culture magazines, everything from your US 174 00:11:27,720 --> 00:11:32,280 Speaker 1: Weekly to you know, the Economist or two Harper's or 175 00:11:32,320 --> 00:11:37,319 Speaker 1: the Atlantic, Vanity, Fair, Guns and Ammo whatever. Unlike those magazines, 176 00:11:37,480 --> 00:11:41,960 Speaker 1: these publications are peer reviewed and that means that again 177 00:11:42,000 --> 00:11:46,800 Speaker 1: in theory, every article you read there has been evaluated 178 00:11:46,800 --> 00:11:51,240 Speaker 1: by other experts in a given field. Pain, by the way, 179 00:11:51,320 --> 00:11:54,040 Speaker 1: we're joking a little, is a specific issue of a 180 00:11:54,120 --> 00:11:57,200 Speaker 1: larger journal. But I like the idea of the journal 181 00:11:57,679 --> 00:12:00,760 Speaker 1: just be named Pain and every article has to be 182 00:12:00,840 --> 00:12:06,160 Speaker 1: reviewed by an expert on freaking paying you know experts. 183 00:12:06,559 --> 00:12:09,840 Speaker 1: They're multiple dungeons across the planet and they're just reviewing 184 00:12:09,960 --> 00:12:15,920 Speaker 1: articles in there. Is the physical quality is severely addectate. However, 185 00:12:16,559 --> 00:12:19,720 Speaker 1: that needs to be more expression of the emotional paying. 186 00:12:20,280 --> 00:12:27,360 Speaker 1: This thing the sound of account of nine tales, but yeah, 187 00:12:27,440 --> 00:12:33,920 Speaker 1: there are very well. But yeah, there are these experts 188 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:36,960 Speaker 1: and they're often volunteers, which is going to be important 189 00:12:36,960 --> 00:12:41,079 Speaker 1: to this story. So if you had a journal on astrophysics, 190 00:12:41,080 --> 00:12:45,280 Speaker 1: for example, this wouldn't just Willy Nilly published some random 191 00:12:45,400 --> 00:12:49,520 Speaker 1: dudes opinions on magnets and space travel that he came 192 00:12:49,640 --> 00:12:54,439 Speaker 1: up with while uh while housing samiyahuasca on a spirit 193 00:12:54,440 --> 00:13:00,240 Speaker 1: a journey, unless there were other established scientists who looked 194 00:13:00,240 --> 00:13:05,920 Speaker 1: at the methodology and said, okay, this is legit before 195 00:13:05,960 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: we dive into the conspiracies here, and there are some 196 00:13:08,600 --> 00:13:11,559 Speaker 1: very dangerous ones. It is crucial for us to note 197 00:13:12,080 --> 00:13:16,520 Speaker 1: these journals overall are a good thing, a capital G 198 00:13:16,800 --> 00:13:21,000 Speaker 1: capitalty good thing. Yeah, because of what you just described, Ben, 199 00:13:21,559 --> 00:13:26,840 Speaker 1: we want experts to look at other experts work and say, yes, 200 00:13:27,080 --> 00:13:30,160 Speaker 1: this checks out. We don't want to just have a 201 00:13:30,240 --> 00:13:35,239 Speaker 1: bunch of like you said, um individuals putting out information 202 00:13:35,280 --> 00:13:39,520 Speaker 1: that may not be verifiable or correct. We don't want that. 203 00:13:39,520 --> 00:13:44,400 Speaker 1: That mean that's chaos, especially if there are specific fields 204 00:13:44,440 --> 00:13:47,320 Speaker 1: of science and research that we want to continue forward 205 00:13:47,360 --> 00:13:51,040 Speaker 1: built upon the work of previous people. Right, that's kind 206 00:13:51,040 --> 00:13:54,680 Speaker 1: of what science is. We we come to a consensus 207 00:13:54,760 --> 00:13:58,080 Speaker 1: understanding at any given point, and then we build upon 208 00:13:58,160 --> 00:14:01,960 Speaker 1: that consensus and we have to decide whether or not. Uh, 209 00:14:02,000 --> 00:14:05,880 Speaker 1: that next building block is real enough to support the 210 00:14:05,880 --> 00:14:08,360 Speaker 1: weight of the next one. Right, I mean it makes 211 00:14:08,400 --> 00:14:15,000 Speaker 1: total sense. This is a great thing on paper, on 212 00:14:15,200 --> 00:14:18,840 Speaker 1: paper for now. Uh. Also, let me here a quick correction, 213 00:14:18,880 --> 00:14:23,080 Speaker 1: because I was diving through notes about pain here. Uh, 214 00:14:23,240 --> 00:14:26,240 Speaker 1: it is the Journal of Pain. That's what I should 215 00:14:26,240 --> 00:14:29,640 Speaker 1: have said. It's its own thing. It's all aspects of pain. 216 00:14:29,760 --> 00:14:34,880 Speaker 1: I'm gonna let it go, but it is legit in 217 00:14:34,920 --> 00:14:37,440 Speaker 1: the Journal of Pain, simply known by a street named 218 00:14:37,440 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: Pain ranked five in the Anenthusiology category of journals. So really, 219 00:14:46,160 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: just I thought it was the the official up and 220 00:14:48,680 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: vanished journal academic joke too, Yeah, shout out saw pain earlier. 221 00:14:55,800 --> 00:14:58,640 Speaker 1: He's doing well. Yeah, I don't know about that journal. 222 00:14:58,680 --> 00:15:01,640 Speaker 1: I have to ask him. These things also, like you said, 223 00:15:01,680 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: they create these building blocks, They create conversation and discourse, 224 00:15:07,200 --> 00:15:11,360 Speaker 1: and there's no question about it. Successfully appearing in a 225 00:15:11,400 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: prestigious journal, whether whether you're an author of a paper 226 00:15:16,040 --> 00:15:19,480 Speaker 1: or just an author cited by a paper that gets published, 227 00:15:20,560 --> 00:15:23,960 Speaker 1: both of those are very very good for a scholar's career. 228 00:15:24,440 --> 00:15:29,280 Speaker 1: In fact, they are necessary. And at this point when 229 00:15:29,320 --> 00:15:31,040 Speaker 1: we'll tell you what we mean by that in a second, 230 00:15:31,040 --> 00:15:33,960 Speaker 1: but at this point it's important to note not all 231 00:15:34,040 --> 00:15:40,200 Speaker 1: journals are created equally, just like universities, some are considered 232 00:15:40,360 --> 00:15:46,080 Speaker 1: more prestigious than others. Now, is this kind of hierarchy fair? 233 00:15:46,640 --> 00:15:49,560 Speaker 1: I would argue it has a lot of problems because 234 00:15:49,680 --> 00:15:54,480 Speaker 1: I disrespect hierarchies in general. Um, I think they're bad 235 00:15:54,800 --> 00:16:00,120 Speaker 1: for people and society. But it's a real thing. Somethings 236 00:16:00,200 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: are considered superior to others. Like you would have a 237 00:16:03,600 --> 00:16:09,760 Speaker 1: hard time convincing someone that devive degree from Devise is 238 00:16:09,840 --> 00:16:13,120 Speaker 1: as prestigious as a degree from an Ivy League school 239 00:16:13,160 --> 00:16:16,840 Speaker 1: like Yale or Harvard. So this is the thing you 240 00:16:16,880 --> 00:16:19,520 Speaker 1: need to know when you're thinking about academic journals. And 241 00:16:19,600 --> 00:16:22,880 Speaker 1: the conspiracies were about to get into And this is 242 00:16:22,920 --> 00:16:25,920 Speaker 1: such a thing that it is not a rule of thumb. 243 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,880 Speaker 1: Not in this world. It is not a general vibe 244 00:16:30,120 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: people get being rigorous academics. The the industry and the 245 00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:41,320 Speaker 1: people associated with it have codified this hierarchy into something 246 00:16:41,320 --> 00:16:46,000 Speaker 1: they call the impact factor. Yeah, it sounds it sounds 247 00:16:46,040 --> 00:16:49,640 Speaker 1: a lot like marketing bumbo jumbo. To me, sometimes there's 248 00:16:49,640 --> 00:16:52,720 Speaker 1: just like specific names that are come up with by 249 00:16:53,760 --> 00:16:56,480 Speaker 1: by marketing professionals and people who are in public relations 250 00:16:56,480 --> 00:17:00,200 Speaker 1: who understand these things, and they attached metrics to them. 251 00:17:00,240 --> 00:17:07,520 Speaker 1: But that activation was so dope, bro, I'm so activated 252 00:17:07,640 --> 00:17:14,399 Speaker 1: right now, fully activated. So uh, the impact factor is 253 00:17:14,440 --> 00:17:18,760 Speaker 1: really interesting though. To me. It's the concept that whenever 254 00:17:18,800 --> 00:17:22,800 Speaker 1: you have let's say an individual article, how many times 255 00:17:23,080 --> 00:17:27,240 Speaker 1: is that article cited somewhere else, either in a publication 256 00:17:27,359 --> 00:17:30,080 Speaker 1: or by another article that's maybe in another journal or 257 00:17:30,080 --> 00:17:32,439 Speaker 1: in the same journal. And then how many times is 258 00:17:32,640 --> 00:17:35,400 Speaker 1: that journal all of the articles that they published, How 259 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,439 Speaker 1: many times is that journal cited overall? So you have 260 00:17:39,600 --> 00:17:44,800 Speaker 1: these like varying levels of impact on the scientific community 261 00:17:44,880 --> 00:17:47,560 Speaker 1: or your specific community of people who are reading your 262 00:17:47,640 --> 00:17:51,760 Speaker 1: journal or journals like yours. It's really interesting. It is. 263 00:17:52,040 --> 00:17:57,280 Speaker 1: It is, and it is continually evaluated. And when we 264 00:17:57,320 --> 00:18:02,280 Speaker 1: say codified, kid you there is even a publication that 265 00:18:02,400 --> 00:18:06,760 Speaker 1: tracts these factors. It's called Journal Citation Reports. It's a 266 00:18:06,800 --> 00:18:09,840 Speaker 1: little bit meta. It's a real thing though, So it's 267 00:18:09,880 --> 00:18:15,320 Speaker 1: a it's a journal about reports in journals. Uh, riveting 268 00:18:15,400 --> 00:18:18,560 Speaker 1: stuff really, um, but you know it it's important it's 269 00:18:18,600 --> 00:18:23,960 Speaker 1: important for many people in the industry. I would say 270 00:18:23,960 --> 00:18:27,359 Speaker 1: it's way more important for the industry itself the academic 271 00:18:27,520 --> 00:18:32,199 Speaker 1: big academic journal. Yeah, exactly. And this brings us like, 272 00:18:32,320 --> 00:18:36,639 Speaker 1: why is this important though impact factors, the big h number, 273 00:18:36,680 --> 00:18:39,840 Speaker 1: all this stuff we'll talk about. It's important because of 274 00:18:40,000 --> 00:18:43,119 Speaker 1: a phrase you may have heard before, called publish or 275 00:18:43,359 --> 00:18:46,240 Speaker 1: parish Matt. Had you heard of this phrase before? I'm 276 00:18:46,240 --> 00:18:50,840 Speaker 1: sure you had. Oh. Yeah. If you are receiving money, 277 00:18:51,119 --> 00:18:55,040 Speaker 1: let's say, a grant of some sort from someplace, probably 278 00:18:55,359 --> 00:18:59,919 Speaker 1: a government, that's the money that you're receiving to perform research, 279 00:19:00,240 --> 00:19:03,600 Speaker 1: to do whatever it is you're doing your experiments. Um, 280 00:19:03,640 --> 00:19:07,960 Speaker 1: if you don't, then publish that work somewhere so somebody 281 00:19:07,960 --> 00:19:11,080 Speaker 1: can read about it. Uh, there's gonna be somebody come 282 00:19:11,160 --> 00:19:13,199 Speaker 1: knocking and saying, so, what what did you do? What 283 00:19:13,240 --> 00:19:15,840 Speaker 1: do you do with all that money that we gave you? 284 00:19:16,760 --> 00:19:20,679 Speaker 1: So what is it we pay you for? Again? And 285 00:19:20,760 --> 00:19:24,960 Speaker 1: that's that's something people don't want to hear. Um, it's tremendous. 286 00:19:25,040 --> 00:19:29,080 Speaker 1: It refers to that tremendous pressure you're describing, Matt, to 287 00:19:29,320 --> 00:19:33,879 Speaker 1: publish work as often as possible, preferably in the most 288 00:19:33,920 --> 00:19:40,040 Speaker 1: impactful journals possible, and this can make or break your 289 00:19:40,119 --> 00:19:45,200 Speaker 1: reputation and the prospects for your future career. Academia can 290 00:19:45,240 --> 00:19:48,879 Speaker 1: be quite competitive. That's something that might surprise people on 291 00:19:48,920 --> 00:19:53,240 Speaker 1: the outside. But sometimes you'll see scholars get a little 292 00:19:53,240 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: bit highlander about this stuff because when it comes to 293 00:19:57,680 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 1: tenure track positions, there can be only one pretty often, right, 294 00:20:03,720 --> 00:20:07,360 Speaker 1: and it's it's brutal, and it might be bad for research. 295 00:20:07,520 --> 00:20:11,080 Speaker 1: You know. This is in a shower epiphany I had 296 00:20:11,160 --> 00:20:15,240 Speaker 1: this morning, But I was thinking back to discussions of 297 00:20:15,280 --> 00:20:18,480 Speaker 1: the NBA, was watching the HBO series of Magic Johnson 298 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:24,040 Speaker 1: and just thinking about tenured positions at prestigious universities and colleges, right, 299 00:20:24,440 --> 00:20:29,000 Speaker 1: And I imagined it like NBA players, where uh, there's 300 00:20:29,000 --> 00:20:31,080 Speaker 1: a ton of people out there who would make great 301 00:20:31,200 --> 00:20:34,879 Speaker 1: tenured professors, but there are only so many slots open. 302 00:20:35,400 --> 00:20:38,879 Speaker 1: So you you, you know, just trying to be in 303 00:20:38,880 --> 00:20:41,480 Speaker 1: that field and like compete at that level. And the 304 00:20:41,520 --> 00:20:44,040 Speaker 1: same as the NBA. You just you either have to 305 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:46,680 Speaker 1: stand out or you have to be so good at 306 00:20:46,680 --> 00:20:51,360 Speaker 1: what you do that you get noticed basically, right, right, 307 00:20:51,600 --> 00:20:54,639 Speaker 1: And I like that just a soft New Year. I 308 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:57,160 Speaker 1: like that you and I both go back and forth 309 00:20:57,200 --> 00:21:01,840 Speaker 1: between prestigious and prestigious. Because I I do this too. 310 00:21:02,000 --> 00:21:06,000 Speaker 1: I still don't I still um, I don't know. I 311 00:21:06,080 --> 00:21:08,040 Speaker 1: just go with the vibe of them. God, I love 312 00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:12,840 Speaker 1: this language, this ridiculous English language. I've watched too much 313 00:21:12,880 --> 00:21:16,679 Speaker 1: British television sometimes and then I get I confuse myself. 314 00:21:16,960 --> 00:21:21,680 Speaker 1: How do I how should I pronounce that word prestigious, prestigious, whatever, 315 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:24,479 Speaker 1: We'll just go with it. Yeah, we get some. We 316 00:21:24,640 --> 00:21:29,000 Speaker 1: we get correspondence sometimes where people people ask me about 317 00:21:29,040 --> 00:21:34,919 Speaker 1: say rather versus rather or either versus either, And you 318 00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,239 Speaker 1: know what, folks, we just go back and forth because uh, 319 00:21:39,480 --> 00:21:42,439 Speaker 1: because look, the the English language is such a weird 320 00:21:42,960 --> 00:21:48,040 Speaker 1: agglomeration of piracy and freestyling. I think, um, you know, like, 321 00:21:48,119 --> 00:21:51,280 Speaker 1: why is k a letter to be honest? Why why 322 00:21:51,320 --> 00:21:56,280 Speaker 1: do we need that one? Anyway? Uh so so tenure professor, 323 00:21:56,320 --> 00:21:58,280 Speaker 1: why is this a big deal? Well, if you are 324 00:21:58,400 --> 00:22:02,960 Speaker 1: given tenure at institution, um, it does kind of make 325 00:22:03,000 --> 00:22:04,879 Speaker 1: you a rock star. Like you said, Matt, there are 326 00:22:04,880 --> 00:22:07,439 Speaker 1: only so many slots that depends on the institution in 327 00:22:07,480 --> 00:22:12,359 Speaker 1: the department. But it makes it very, very difficult for 328 00:22:12,440 --> 00:22:16,480 Speaker 1: you to be fired. It is a form of job security. 329 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:22,280 Speaker 1: It is still possible to be fired, but the circumstances 330 00:22:22,320 --> 00:22:27,159 Speaker 1: have to be pretty extraordinary. And if you want to 331 00:22:27,320 --> 00:22:30,560 Speaker 1: tenure track position, then you want to be seen as 332 00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:33,119 Speaker 1: a rock star. You want to be cited pretty often, 333 00:22:33,240 --> 00:22:36,600 Speaker 1: you want to be published pretty often. And so, as 334 00:22:37,280 --> 00:22:42,959 Speaker 1: counterintuitive as it may sound to an outsider definition of 335 00:22:43,000 --> 00:22:48,000 Speaker 1: what makes a good professor, the idea that you'll hear 336 00:22:48,040 --> 00:22:50,760 Speaker 1: a lot of people say is if you spend all 337 00:22:50,800 --> 00:22:56,639 Speaker 1: your time teaching undergraduates or teaching folks instead of researching 338 00:22:56,680 --> 00:23:02,080 Speaker 1: and publishing, then you are hurting your career prospects, which 339 00:23:02,160 --> 00:23:05,879 Speaker 1: is kind of weird right from an outside perspective. But 340 00:23:05,960 --> 00:23:08,919 Speaker 1: we'll we'll show you how the business works. As you 341 00:23:08,960 --> 00:23:13,040 Speaker 1: can already tell, these journals are vital to the furthering 342 00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:17,720 Speaker 1: of scientific knowledge. They're vital to the furthering of individual 343 00:23:17,880 --> 00:23:22,480 Speaker 1: careers and institutional reputations. And as a result of these factors, 344 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,080 Speaker 1: they are a big, big business. According to critics, they're 345 00:23:26,119 --> 00:23:32,480 Speaker 1: also a hotbed of corruption, nepotism, and oh yeah, conspiracy. 346 00:23:33,160 --> 00:23:35,520 Speaker 1: We'll tell you what we're talking about after a word 347 00:23:35,680 --> 00:23:47,720 Speaker 1: from our sponsors. Here's where it gets crazy. First, there's 348 00:23:47,760 --> 00:23:50,639 Speaker 1: not just one scale. There's not one. We're doing a 349 00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: we're doing a but wait, there's more infomercial about how 350 00:23:54,400 --> 00:23:58,720 Speaker 1: cooked this stuff is. Uh, okay, the first first less 351 00:23:58,800 --> 00:24:01,560 Speaker 1: like about the really easy, and we said not all 352 00:24:01,840 --> 00:24:07,160 Speaker 1: of these journals are created equal. Let's talk about the 353 00:24:07,160 --> 00:24:11,280 Speaker 1: bottom of the barrel, the predatory publishers, the fake ones. Matt, 354 00:24:11,320 --> 00:24:13,480 Speaker 1: I don't know. I was thinking about the best way 355 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,440 Speaker 1: to get into this, and I wanted to ask you 356 00:24:17,760 --> 00:24:22,120 Speaker 1: if you ever had anybody in your family or a 357 00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,480 Speaker 1: friend of a friend or a family friend who, as 358 00:24:25,560 --> 00:24:29,800 Speaker 1: they got older, decided to publish their memoirs. Have you 359 00:24:29,840 --> 00:24:33,399 Speaker 1: ever run into anything like that? Oh, that's weird. I 360 00:24:33,440 --> 00:24:36,200 Speaker 1: honestly haven't. I haven't run in anybody who's decided to 361 00:24:36,200 --> 00:24:44,880 Speaker 1: publish a memoir. Wow, right on, well social circle, Hey man, 362 00:24:45,280 --> 00:24:47,440 Speaker 1: you've got some war stories. I bet you could write 363 00:24:47,480 --> 00:24:53,560 Speaker 1: some memoirs. Okay. I was like, I was about say, 364 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,720 Speaker 1: that is the most enthusiastic no, shut up, ben that 365 00:24:56,880 --> 00:25:01,840 Speaker 1: ever in a while. But but yeah, so I'm the 366 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:06,120 Speaker 1: reason I'm bringing this up is this is just an analogy. Um. 367 00:25:06,160 --> 00:25:09,639 Speaker 1: I have interacted with uh, you know, I I know 368 00:25:09,680 --> 00:25:13,119 Speaker 1: all types of humans. So, um, there's a thing that 369 00:25:13,160 --> 00:25:16,880 Speaker 1: happens not infrequently as people get older, where they say, 370 00:25:16,920 --> 00:25:20,840 Speaker 1: I want to tell my story right, And a lot 371 00:25:20,880 --> 00:25:24,080 Speaker 1: of times people especially you know, not to be a 372 00:25:24,200 --> 00:25:28,280 Speaker 1: just older people will look for a way to publish 373 00:25:28,400 --> 00:25:32,000 Speaker 1: their story and they'll do that without knowing very much 374 00:25:32,040 --> 00:25:37,960 Speaker 1: about the leviathan that is the publishing industry, and they'll 375 00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: go to something like a vanity publisher, and a vanity publisher, 376 00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:47,920 Speaker 1: um I think vantage Press used to be one will say, oh, 377 00:25:47,960 --> 00:25:50,399 Speaker 1: we love your memoir. Oh it's so well written and 378 00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:55,520 Speaker 1: so insightful, and for the low, low price of insert 379 00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:58,680 Speaker 1: egregious amount here, we would love to bring your story 380 00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:03,320 Speaker 1: to the world. So you're paying them to, you know, 381 00:26:03,400 --> 00:26:07,040 Speaker 1: run a printing press for you. This is where we this, 382 00:26:07,680 --> 00:26:10,440 Speaker 1: you know, and this is a scam. Everybody admits it's 383 00:26:10,440 --> 00:26:13,439 Speaker 1: a scam when it happens to people who are maybe 384 00:26:13,440 --> 00:26:19,960 Speaker 1: a little less technologically or less publishing industrially savvy. Uh. 385 00:26:20,119 --> 00:26:23,640 Speaker 1: When you look at the world of academia, though, which 386 00:26:23,760 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: like any other field, is populated with brilliant people, you 387 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:32,040 Speaker 1: see that there are predatory publishers there, and sometimes the 388 00:26:32,200 --> 00:26:37,359 Speaker 1: scholars that interact with these predatory publishers know that the 389 00:26:37,440 --> 00:26:40,680 Speaker 1: publication is not on the up and up. They just 390 00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:44,159 Speaker 1: also like they think of that that figure a speech 391 00:26:44,480 --> 00:26:48,040 Speaker 1: that directive publish or perish. The thing about publish or 392 00:26:48,160 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: perish is that it doesn't say it's it's just publish. 393 00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: It's not publishing a good journal or parish. It's just published. 394 00:26:57,000 --> 00:26:59,080 Speaker 1: So if you can't get in, like let's say you 395 00:26:59,080 --> 00:27:02,280 Speaker 1: submit it to five or six of different journals and 396 00:27:02,440 --> 00:27:06,960 Speaker 1: gets declined, you finally say, okay, well here we go, 397 00:27:07,119 --> 00:27:10,800 Speaker 1: gonna roll the dice on this one. See what happens. Uh. 398 00:27:10,920 --> 00:27:13,880 Speaker 1: And it's actually it occurs quite often. And there are 399 00:27:13,960 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 1: so many of these types of this kind of journal 400 00:27:17,800 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: out there. Yeah, yeah, there are thousands and thousands of 401 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,080 Speaker 1: academic journals across the world, and not all of them 402 00:27:25,200 --> 00:27:29,840 Speaker 1: are on the up and up. If you want to 403 00:27:29,920 --> 00:27:32,600 Speaker 1: get some kind of publication and just need some over 404 00:27:32,640 --> 00:27:37,240 Speaker 1: the finish line, then your standards start to get a 405 00:27:37,280 --> 00:27:41,400 Speaker 1: little lower and lower you start to maybe compromise. That's understandable. 406 00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:44,879 Speaker 1: And I want to give a special shout out to 407 00:27:44,920 --> 00:27:49,520 Speaker 1: a guy named Dr Andrew Stapleton over on YouTube. He 408 00:27:49,600 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: has a great video on this. He has a great 409 00:27:51,400 --> 00:27:54,920 Speaker 1: series of videos. He's a charming presenter, is very very 410 00:27:54,960 --> 00:28:00,359 Speaker 1: smart cat and he talks about UH. He is a 411 00:28:00,640 --> 00:28:04,520 Speaker 1: a brilliant scientist who left academia to do other things. 412 00:28:04,640 --> 00:28:08,440 Speaker 1: And his channel, I think is Andy Stapleton. It's all 413 00:28:08,480 --> 00:28:12,159 Speaker 1: about the hidden aspects of PhD s, post stock work 414 00:28:12,400 --> 00:28:17,439 Speaker 1: and uh, the academy capital a in general. And he 415 00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:23,000 Speaker 1: points out some dangerous with these predatory journals. He says, Look, 416 00:28:23,280 --> 00:28:26,359 Speaker 1: they they'll publish your stuff, but they don't spend time 417 00:28:26,400 --> 00:28:30,040 Speaker 1: peer reviewing research. You just pay to play and you 418 00:28:30,080 --> 00:28:35,880 Speaker 1: can hopefully squeeze that somewhere in your CV, the academic 419 00:28:36,000 --> 00:28:39,840 Speaker 1: version of a resume, right your works, uh, and you 420 00:28:39,840 --> 00:28:42,040 Speaker 1: can maybe put it somewhere in the list where people 421 00:28:42,200 --> 00:28:45,640 Speaker 1: glaze over it. So that's one bad actor in publishing. 422 00:28:45,920 --> 00:28:49,720 Speaker 1: But there's another bad actor, fake publishers. And this is 423 00:28:49,720 --> 00:28:51,320 Speaker 1: where we want to give a shout out to an 424 00:28:51,360 --> 00:28:55,840 Speaker 1: excellent ted X talk by a scholar named Bradley Alfie. 425 00:28:55,880 --> 00:28:57,880 Speaker 1: You saw this one too, I think, man I did. 426 00:28:58,080 --> 00:29:01,600 Speaker 1: I just have I have one good critique of the video, 427 00:29:01,760 --> 00:29:05,680 Speaker 1: and it's just to speed up, uh, speed up your 428 00:29:05,720 --> 00:29:08,720 Speaker 1: script because I'm assuming you've got a teleprompter or something 429 00:29:08,800 --> 00:29:12,560 Speaker 1: as you're giving this uh presentation Bradley, and I just 430 00:29:12,720 --> 00:29:16,760 Speaker 1: somebody just needed to increase that speed just enough, uh, 431 00:29:17,600 --> 00:29:21,920 Speaker 1: because I found myself doing the fifteen plus fifteen second 432 00:29:22,120 --> 00:29:24,040 Speaker 1: thing on the video just to get to the next point, 433 00:29:24,080 --> 00:29:26,320 Speaker 1: because I kind of saw where you were going. I'm 434 00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:28,640 Speaker 1: just talking to Bradley. I saw exactly where you were going, 435 00:29:28,640 --> 00:29:29,880 Speaker 1: and I was just kind of waiting for you to 436 00:29:30,400 --> 00:29:33,680 Speaker 1: jump to the next thing. But other than that, the 437 00:29:33,720 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 1: content held within was excellent. You know, Matt, I noticed 438 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,360 Speaker 1: some of that too, and I was my take on that, 439 00:29:40,480 --> 00:29:45,240 Speaker 1: or my interpretation was that when you are lecturing in 440 00:29:45,280 --> 00:29:50,760 Speaker 1: that format, you learn specific cadences, right. So maybe it's 441 00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:54,640 Speaker 1: the teleprompter. Maybe it's like a natural pause because the 442 00:29:54,680 --> 00:29:58,120 Speaker 1: expectation is that the crowd will be taking notes, you 443 00:29:58,160 --> 00:30:00,120 Speaker 1: know what I mean. Maybe maybe it's a lecture hole thing. 444 00:30:00,560 --> 00:30:06,160 Speaker 1: But but I agree with your point overall and content wise, 445 00:30:07,120 --> 00:30:12,080 Speaker 1: he does something pretty humorous. He gets trolled by a 446 00:30:12,200 --> 00:30:19,040 Speaker 1: fake slash predatory publication out of China, and he decides 447 00:30:19,200 --> 00:30:22,680 Speaker 1: to see whether they are legit. So he responds by 448 00:30:22,840 --> 00:30:26,840 Speaker 1: writing what he calls the worst possible paper he could write. 449 00:30:27,360 --> 00:30:32,520 Speaker 1: And this paper, which is full to the brim of 450 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:39,280 Speaker 1: scientific jargon and totally made up graphs that, as he said, 451 00:30:39,320 --> 00:30:42,120 Speaker 1: look like science, but are not science. He pretends to 452 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:46,680 Speaker 1: argue that people should be teaching school children to make 453 00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:51,480 Speaker 1: and sell drugs meth amphetamine, based on the television show 454 00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,960 Speaker 1: Breaking Bad, and he goes through it's a long video. 455 00:30:56,000 --> 00:31:00,240 Speaker 1: He goes through specific examples of things he says in 456 00:31:00,280 --> 00:31:05,080 Speaker 1: the paper that make no sense and our onion level hilarious, 457 00:31:05,680 --> 00:31:11,120 Speaker 1: and later the publisher green lights his submission, which is 458 00:31:11,320 --> 00:31:14,560 Speaker 1: um worth a chuckle if you want to watch it. 459 00:31:15,200 --> 00:31:19,400 Speaker 1: He does go on his citations were fake, or at 460 00:31:19,480 --> 00:31:22,880 Speaker 1: least many of his citations were not real. He said, 461 00:31:22,920 --> 00:31:30,080 Speaker 1: I'm like, follow forty forty four citations all malarkey and uh, 462 00:31:30,240 --> 00:31:32,920 Speaker 1: and then this takes him. There's a turn in this 463 00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,880 Speaker 1: where he describes the danger of these kinds of publications 464 00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:41,280 Speaker 1: because he says, look, publications like this are platform in 465 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,640 Speaker 1: utter bullet about things like five gene COVID, and when 466 00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:52,040 Speaker 1: they get published in something that sounds like it has legitimacy, 467 00:31:52,160 --> 00:31:56,360 Speaker 1: then audiences who are practicing confirmation bias aren't going to 468 00:31:56,480 --> 00:32:01,080 Speaker 1: read into it more carefully. They're they're going to hear 469 00:32:01,120 --> 00:32:04,880 Speaker 1: that innocuous, official sounding name and then say, oh, here's 470 00:32:04,920 --> 00:32:09,240 Speaker 1: the truth, and you know, some big forces shutting it down. 471 00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,600 Speaker 1: Uh that's why I'm able to find it and share 472 00:32:12,600 --> 00:32:16,440 Speaker 1: it at a viral level on Facebook, because they don't 473 00:32:16,440 --> 00:32:19,400 Speaker 1: want you to know. Right. Well, yeah, and in the 474 00:32:19,440 --> 00:32:23,760 Speaker 1: worst case scenario is that that specific article goes offline 475 00:32:23,800 --> 00:32:26,240 Speaker 1: for one reason or another, for some kind of strike 476 00:32:26,360 --> 00:32:29,680 Speaker 1: or some other reason, and now that it's gone, oh, 477 00:32:29,840 --> 00:32:33,960 Speaker 1: the narrative can become someone has removed it purposefully because 478 00:32:33,960 --> 00:32:36,000 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know the truth, when in 479 00:32:36,040 --> 00:32:40,120 Speaker 1: reality it's just a pile of bs. And now there's 480 00:32:40,120 --> 00:32:42,800 Speaker 1: a large swath of people who like fully believe it 481 00:32:42,920 --> 00:32:46,360 Speaker 1: and now even believe in a conspiracy surrounding it, right right, 482 00:32:46,560 --> 00:32:49,600 Speaker 1: And this is obviously not to say conspiracies aren't true. 483 00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:55,960 Speaker 1: Many many are far far more true than it's comforting 484 00:32:56,040 --> 00:33:00,440 Speaker 1: to think. But but in this case, those kind of 485 00:33:00,480 --> 00:33:04,240 Speaker 1: publications might get taken down for corruption, They might get 486 00:33:04,440 --> 00:33:09,560 Speaker 1: taken down for financial crimes because they are you know, 487 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:16,360 Speaker 1: criminal institutions. So uh so it's kind of like, um, 488 00:33:16,400 --> 00:33:20,560 Speaker 1: maybe off the cuff. Comparison would be to say, what 489 00:33:20,720 --> 00:33:27,400 Speaker 1: if you knew someone who stole cars. They stole cars, 490 00:33:27,680 --> 00:33:31,520 Speaker 1: they ran a chop shop and uh. In addition to 491 00:33:31,600 --> 00:33:36,520 Speaker 1: running a chop shop, they also believed that Earth was flat. 492 00:33:37,320 --> 00:33:42,240 Speaker 1: Those were their two things, stealing cars and telling people 493 00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,840 Speaker 1: Earth was flat. And then one day they get arrested 494 00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:49,400 Speaker 1: because they got caught stealing cars and they their chop 495 00:33:49,440 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: shop was found. They had, you know, they were scraping 496 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,959 Speaker 1: ven numbers. They were breaking things down for the catalytic converters, 497 00:33:56,280 --> 00:33:59,440 Speaker 1: other components. Do you know how the game goes? I assume. 498 00:34:00,080 --> 00:34:05,600 Speaker 1: And then their friends started saying, well, okay, he wasn't 499 00:34:05,600 --> 00:34:09,040 Speaker 1: the perfect guy, but he got arrested. Why do you 500 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,440 Speaker 1: think that was Is it because he knew the truth 501 00:34:12,480 --> 00:34:16,000 Speaker 1: about flat Earth? Yeah? And he had the audacity to 502 00:34:16,040 --> 00:34:19,320 Speaker 1: tell others about it. Yeah, it's speaking truth to power 503 00:34:19,440 --> 00:34:22,759 Speaker 1: in between stealing Honda Civics, you know what I mean, 504 00:34:22,800 --> 00:34:29,440 Speaker 1: Like that's they're one of the most common cars. Just 505 00:34:29,600 --> 00:34:34,800 Speaker 1: don't just don't steal better cars. Is that what you're saying. 506 00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,640 Speaker 1: I've seen so many Maseratis that are just just begging 507 00:34:39,640 --> 00:34:45,880 Speaker 1: to be stolen, and I'm just no, don't still in Maserati. 508 00:34:45,960 --> 00:34:51,480 Speaker 1: That's an impractical car to steal. It is true, it's impractical. 509 00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,000 Speaker 1: I mean they stick out anyway. So what we're saying 510 00:34:54,080 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: is there are bad actors in the world of u 511 00:34:58,239 --> 00:35:03,360 Speaker 1: academic journalism, right, and these are the known bad actors. 512 00:35:03,440 --> 00:35:07,600 Speaker 1: And sometimes people make a faustian bargain just to get 513 00:35:07,640 --> 00:35:12,200 Speaker 1: published in something that is like a pay to play institution. 514 00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,160 Speaker 1: But there is another conspiracy of foot. Uh. Some whould 515 00:35:17,200 --> 00:35:21,120 Speaker 1: argue there's definitely corruption of foot. And it doesn't just 516 00:35:21,280 --> 00:35:25,960 Speaker 1: affect people who make that faustian bargain. It doesn't just 517 00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:31,200 Speaker 1: affect criminal enterprises. Doesn't just like it affects you, honestly, 518 00:35:31,640 --> 00:35:34,400 Speaker 1: even if you have never written or submitted a paper 519 00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,560 Speaker 1: to an academic journal, even if you've never read a 520 00:35:37,600 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: paper in an academic journal, even if you don't care 521 00:35:41,120 --> 00:35:46,319 Speaker 1: what these things are, it affects you specifically in a 522 00:35:46,360 --> 00:35:49,400 Speaker 1: way that will probably make you angry, and it should. Uh. 523 00:35:49,520 --> 00:35:53,600 Speaker 1: Let's talk about the typical publishers, because Matt, as we know, 524 00:35:54,160 --> 00:36:00,120 Speaker 1: the legit publishers aren't always paragons of ethics either, uh it, 525 00:36:00,640 --> 00:36:06,360 Speaker 1: and they are insanely profitable. Let's maybe follow the money 526 00:36:06,760 --> 00:36:10,680 Speaker 1: right like you, You and I and and Paul mission control. 527 00:36:10,760 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 1: We were talking about this off air, uh. And one 528 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,360 Speaker 1: of the things that Paul and I have done pretty 529 00:36:17,360 --> 00:36:19,280 Speaker 1: often in the past, I've done it for this show. 530 00:36:19,920 --> 00:36:23,920 Speaker 1: Is when you find a paywalled article which can you know, 531 00:36:24,000 --> 00:36:27,479 Speaker 1: sty me our own research, You find the author who 532 00:36:27,480 --> 00:36:30,799 Speaker 1: wrote it, get a contact for them if you can, 533 00:36:31,280 --> 00:36:33,760 Speaker 1: and then ask them directly if they can just send 534 00:36:33,800 --> 00:36:36,880 Speaker 1: you their paper, and more than nine times out of 535 00:36:36,920 --> 00:36:39,480 Speaker 1: ten and my experience, they're super down to do it. 536 00:36:39,920 --> 00:36:43,120 Speaker 1: Why is that? So? First, let's talk about the individual 537 00:36:43,160 --> 00:36:46,880 Speaker 1: person who's doing research to you know, hopefully write it 538 00:36:46,880 --> 00:36:50,359 Speaker 1: all up and submit it to a publisher. Right, Are 539 00:36:50,360 --> 00:36:53,319 Speaker 1: they getting paid for that article when they submit it? 540 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:56,680 Speaker 1: Do they get a little stipend or something or you know, 541 00:36:56,880 --> 00:37:00,319 Speaker 1: some kind of small payment one time for submitting an article? No, no, no, no, 542 00:37:00,400 --> 00:37:04,920 Speaker 1: They do that for free and they are hoping right 543 00:37:05,040 --> 00:37:07,560 Speaker 1: that they are going to get accepted to be published 544 00:37:07,600 --> 00:37:11,879 Speaker 1: within that journal. And that's really all there. That's that's 545 00:37:11,920 --> 00:37:14,879 Speaker 1: the whole transaction. You do all the research, all the work, 546 00:37:14,960 --> 00:37:18,560 Speaker 1: you send it off and just pray that somebody somewhere 547 00:37:18,640 --> 00:37:20,960 Speaker 1: is going to accept it. Then we talked about the 548 00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:26,399 Speaker 1: peer review process, which is mostly an unpaid position by 549 00:37:26,440 --> 00:37:30,160 Speaker 1: a peer who has similar education and understanding within a field. 550 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,080 Speaker 1: And uh, those people are often doing that pro bono 551 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: for whatever journal is is asking for them to do it, 552 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:40,719 Speaker 1: ors for looking for them to do it, right, So 553 00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:43,839 Speaker 1: that's kind of weird. There's no there's no revenue right 554 00:37:43,840 --> 00:37:49,040 Speaker 1: now in this stream, not yet exactly right now, it's 555 00:37:49,040 --> 00:37:52,640 Speaker 1: all it's all free work being done for the journal essentially, right. 556 00:37:53,160 --> 00:37:56,440 Speaker 1: And it's a lot of free work because there are 557 00:37:56,520 --> 00:38:01,239 Speaker 1: often multiple authors for any given paid And that's that's 558 00:38:01,280 --> 00:38:04,120 Speaker 1: another little chess numb we'll get to in a second. Uh, 559 00:38:04,360 --> 00:38:07,440 Speaker 1: here's where the money comes in. In the United States, 560 00:38:08,360 --> 00:38:12,040 Speaker 1: this research can often be funded by the government at 561 00:38:12,040 --> 00:38:16,840 Speaker 1: a federal level of some sort, meaning taxpayer dollars meaning 562 00:38:16,920 --> 00:38:20,319 Speaker 1: your dollars if you have ever paid taxes pay to 563 00:38:20,560 --> 00:38:25,440 Speaker 1: create it. The publishers then are getting all this stuff 564 00:38:25,480 --> 00:38:31,280 Speaker 1: for free. They are paying some editors to check grammar 565 00:38:31,719 --> 00:38:34,440 Speaker 1: maybe to give a first a first pass, not a 566 00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,680 Speaker 1: deep one, just a first pass to say, okay, this 567 00:38:37,920 --> 00:38:41,120 Speaker 1: paper seems legit. You know, it doesn't take the world's 568 00:38:41,239 --> 00:38:47,000 Speaker 1: number one endo chronologist to read the first paragraph of 569 00:38:47,080 --> 00:38:52,560 Speaker 1: something and see the line Elvis Presley invented endo chronology 570 00:38:52,600 --> 00:38:56,680 Speaker 1: and then say no, this isn't it. So so there 571 00:38:56,760 --> 00:38:59,720 Speaker 1: are people, they do have staff. They are paid. These 572 00:39:00,040 --> 00:39:05,280 Speaker 1: editors are also the kind of function as the gatekeepers 573 00:39:05,719 --> 00:39:09,560 Speaker 1: to that peer review process, so they decide whether a 574 00:39:09,560 --> 00:39:12,960 Speaker 1: paper seems at face legit. But the bulk of the 575 00:39:13,120 --> 00:39:15,960 Speaker 1: editorial work is done by those peer reviewers, again on 576 00:39:16,000 --> 00:39:20,600 Speaker 1: an often volunteer basis, and they are checking the actual 577 00:39:20,800 --> 00:39:25,520 Speaker 1: validity of the experiments. They're going into the trenches on methodology. 578 00:39:25,640 --> 00:39:30,400 Speaker 1: And these are scientists themselves, they're working scientists. They're taking 579 00:39:30,440 --> 00:39:35,040 Speaker 1: time out of their day to do this work. And 580 00:39:35,080 --> 00:39:42,279 Speaker 1: then the publisher sells this journal, their product back to 581 00:39:43,560 --> 00:39:49,640 Speaker 1: the same government funded institutions or university libraries to be 582 00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:54,760 Speaker 1: read by the scientists who collectively, let's face it, pretty 583 00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:58,640 Speaker 1: much created the content in the first place. And you know, 584 00:39:58,920 --> 00:40:05,600 Speaker 1: I right lately loathe the word content because it's soulless. Right, 585 00:40:06,120 --> 00:40:11,160 Speaker 1: Just saying the word content implies that a beautiful poem 586 00:40:11,320 --> 00:40:16,000 Speaker 1: is the same thing as a list of um average 587 00:40:16,120 --> 00:40:20,719 Speaker 1: rainfall year over year in southwestern Utah. Right, it's these 588 00:40:20,920 --> 00:40:24,040 Speaker 1: things are not the same. But in this case, I 589 00:40:24,080 --> 00:40:27,040 Speaker 1: think the word content fits because we are talking about 590 00:40:27,040 --> 00:40:32,439 Speaker 1: a process that continues across journals in any imaginary, any 591 00:40:32,480 --> 00:40:37,799 Speaker 1: academic field you can imagine from macro economics all the 592 00:40:37,880 --> 00:40:42,760 Speaker 1: way to you know, very specific niches of forensic psychology 593 00:40:42,920 --> 00:40:47,880 Speaker 1: or pathology, etcetera. So the publisher is making money selling 594 00:40:47,920 --> 00:40:50,960 Speaker 1: this back to the people who created it. That's what's happening. 595 00:40:51,480 --> 00:40:54,960 Speaker 1: For critics of the status quo, this feels like a grift. 596 00:40:55,520 --> 00:40:58,640 Speaker 1: And if you were paying taxes for this, naturally you 597 00:40:58,640 --> 00:41:00,440 Speaker 1: have to ask, well, why don't I get to read it? 598 00:41:00,520 --> 00:41:04,040 Speaker 1: Have I paid for it? What's what gives I'm paying 599 00:41:04,120 --> 00:41:07,680 Speaker 1: for I'm basically paying membership dues for a club that 600 00:41:07,760 --> 00:41:12,680 Speaker 1: won't allow me. And and I can pay again in 601 00:41:12,680 --> 00:41:17,080 Speaker 1: the form of article access or in the form of 602 00:41:17,120 --> 00:41:21,000 Speaker 1: a subscription. And this just doesn't This doesn't just apply 603 00:41:21,640 --> 00:41:26,479 Speaker 1: to civilians, non academics. Academics have to do this too. 604 00:41:27,680 --> 00:41:31,359 Speaker 1: Academics have to pay for like the work of their 605 00:41:31,400 --> 00:41:36,720 Speaker 1: own colleagues. Uh. And even like it's baffling, we gotta 606 00:41:37,239 --> 00:41:39,240 Speaker 1: you don't have to take our word for it. We 607 00:41:39,239 --> 00:41:42,120 Speaker 1: we pulled an example that I think puts it in 608 00:41:42,239 --> 00:41:46,279 Speaker 1: pretty damning in a pretty damn named perspective. Over this 609 00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:50,200 Speaker 1: place called the American Council on Science and Health, there's 610 00:41:50,200 --> 00:41:54,760 Speaker 1: a doctor over there, uh named Dr Chuck uh dinner 611 00:41:54,840 --> 00:41:58,399 Speaker 1: Stein diner Stein. Sorry, I apologize, I've only read your name, 612 00:41:59,000 --> 00:42:03,400 Speaker 1: Dr Chuck. But he notes that the professional organizations, the 613 00:42:03,440 --> 00:42:07,280 Speaker 1: associations of which many of these researchers and scientists are apart, 614 00:42:07,520 --> 00:42:12,000 Speaker 1: also get fleeced here. And it's uh, it's crazy. We 615 00:42:12,000 --> 00:42:13,759 Speaker 1: we mentioned it kind of at the top. When you're 616 00:42:13,800 --> 00:42:18,040 Speaker 1: a member, you pay dues, right, so then the membership 617 00:42:18,280 --> 00:42:21,000 Speaker 1: as part of those dues gives you access to some 618 00:42:21,080 --> 00:42:24,279 Speaker 1: of these journals. Um. But this is how this is 619 00:42:24,320 --> 00:42:26,640 Speaker 1: a quote from Dr Chuck. I'm just gonna call you 620 00:42:26,719 --> 00:42:32,719 Speaker 1: Dr Chuck, Chuck, d there you go. Quote. We pay 621 00:42:32,760 --> 00:42:35,120 Speaker 1: for the privilege of keeping up with our profession and 622 00:42:35,200 --> 00:42:39,080 Speaker 1: providing a subscription audience to see this is important, providing 623 00:42:39,160 --> 00:42:43,440 Speaker 1: a subscription audience to the publications that they use to 624 00:42:43,480 --> 00:42:48,080 Speaker 1: attract advertisements. Oh that's that's interesting. Oh yeah, that's another 625 00:42:48,160 --> 00:42:52,359 Speaker 1: part right, and it continues. We are not the only 626 00:42:52,400 --> 00:42:56,520 Speaker 1: ones that pay. In fact, my contribution is minuscule compared 627 00:42:56,560 --> 00:42:59,919 Speaker 1: to the millions of dollars that colleges and universities pay 628 00:43:00,160 --> 00:43:04,800 Speaker 1: for journal packages for their libraries. And this been for 629 00:43:04,960 --> 00:43:08,000 Speaker 1: my money, for my tax dollars. This is where the 630 00:43:08,040 --> 00:43:12,040 Speaker 1: real conspiracy is. These packages that journals get institutions to 631 00:43:12,080 --> 00:43:18,120 Speaker 1: pay for Yeah, yeah, exactly, And he also adds the 632 00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:21,839 Speaker 1: journals have taken a page out of Hollywood's monopolistic star 633 00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:25,319 Speaker 1: system of the thirties and forties, where they require you 634 00:43:25,680 --> 00:43:29,479 Speaker 1: to take some journals of lesser interest if you want 635 00:43:29,520 --> 00:43:34,319 Speaker 1: the blockbusters. So if you want access, you know, to 636 00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,279 Speaker 1: the number one journal, then that means you have to 637 00:43:37,320 --> 00:43:41,000 Speaker 1: take access to you have to also bundle this, just 638 00:43:41,040 --> 00:43:43,919 Speaker 1: like cable packaging would be a more recent example, cable 639 00:43:44,000 --> 00:43:46,840 Speaker 1: channel packaging, you have to get this other stuff as well. 640 00:43:47,200 --> 00:43:49,720 Speaker 1: And that's kind of weird, right. Whether you consider yourself 641 00:43:49,760 --> 00:43:55,800 Speaker 1: as skeptic or you consider yourself a full on I 642 00:43:56,160 --> 00:43:58,600 Speaker 1: don't know, timfoil hat Wing not. I don't think most 643 00:43:58,600 --> 00:44:03,759 Speaker 1: people consider themselves uh that. But whether or not, regardless 644 00:44:03,760 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: of where you find yourself on that spectrum, the truth 645 00:44:07,239 --> 00:44:10,160 Speaker 1: is there. If you pay taxes, you're part of funding 646 00:44:10,200 --> 00:44:12,960 Speaker 1: this research. But if you want to read the research 647 00:44:13,000 --> 00:44:14,960 Speaker 1: a k get what you paid for, you have to 648 00:44:14,960 --> 00:44:18,759 Speaker 1: pay for it again somehow, either as part of the 649 00:44:18,920 --> 00:44:22,560 Speaker 1: tuition if you are a student, dues, if you're part 650 00:44:22,560 --> 00:44:26,759 Speaker 1: of a professional association, as Dr Dr Chuck d puts it, 651 00:44:27,200 --> 00:44:32,719 Speaker 1: or ALA carte per article. And this is something that 652 00:44:32,800 --> 00:44:36,160 Speaker 1: interested me. I think a lot of people unfamiliar with 653 00:44:36,239 --> 00:44:40,960 Speaker 1: this controversy aren't aware of this. In twenty nineteen, the 654 00:44:41,000 --> 00:44:47,239 Speaker 1: former Trump administration considered a proposal that require all published 655 00:44:47,280 --> 00:44:52,640 Speaker 1: research with federal funding to be immediately available to the public. 656 00:44:53,840 --> 00:44:57,880 Speaker 1: Journals pushed back. They wrote a letter to the administration 657 00:44:58,280 --> 00:45:01,000 Speaker 1: which is available now, and they said, look, there has 658 00:45:01,040 --> 00:45:09,560 Speaker 1: to be a twelvemonth embargo, a year long exclusivity period. Basically, 659 00:45:09,640 --> 00:45:13,440 Speaker 1: the stuff that you paid for or the stuff your 660 00:45:13,440 --> 00:45:17,640 Speaker 1: colleagues researched should be behind a pay wall for a year. 661 00:45:18,320 --> 00:45:20,719 Speaker 1: And they they their arguments for this. I don't know. 662 00:45:20,719 --> 00:45:22,600 Speaker 1: I want to see what you think men, And they said, 663 00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:29,160 Speaker 1: open access would quote nationalize the valuable American intellectual property 664 00:45:29,200 --> 00:45:32,160 Speaker 1: that we produce and force us to give it away 665 00:45:32,200 --> 00:45:35,399 Speaker 1: to the rest of the world for free interesting use 666 00:45:35,640 --> 00:45:42,960 Speaker 1: of We there, do we produce it? Journals? Do we really? Well? 667 00:45:43,000 --> 00:45:46,759 Speaker 1: I mean, that is weird. Do they consider it? I 668 00:45:46,880 --> 00:45:50,719 Speaker 1: p like, do journals consider each individual article of their 669 00:45:50,800 --> 00:45:55,359 Speaker 1: own intellectual property? When they publish it? They say that 670 00:45:55,440 --> 00:45:58,439 Speaker 1: the articles are the property of the journals that own 671 00:45:58,480 --> 00:46:02,280 Speaker 1: the copyright, not of the authors, not of the funding 672 00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:05,319 Speaker 1: agencies and not the taxpayers who paid for it in 673 00:46:05,320 --> 00:46:14,600 Speaker 1: the first place. So wait, wait to say, so, Yeah, 674 00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,440 Speaker 1: the journals are getting the research for free, the article, 675 00:46:19,680 --> 00:46:24,440 Speaker 1: they're not paying people to peer review it. Then they're 676 00:46:24,480 --> 00:46:27,600 Speaker 1: publishing it so they don't have to pay for a 677 00:46:27,680 --> 00:46:32,560 Speaker 1: dang thing. But then they're charging for like they they're 678 00:46:32,600 --> 00:46:35,480 Speaker 1: still arguing that they need a year's time to monetize 679 00:46:35,560 --> 00:46:38,800 Speaker 1: that thing that they now own the copyright because they 680 00:46:38,960 --> 00:46:42,760 Speaker 1: put it into a PDF form. Yeah, look, they're making 681 00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:48,560 Speaker 1: a killing. Uh. The largest of these publishing groups makes 682 00:46:48,600 --> 00:46:52,960 Speaker 1: about a thirty six percent profit margin every year as 683 00:46:52,960 --> 00:46:56,040 Speaker 1: of twenty nine, and that is a margin that many 684 00:46:56,080 --> 00:47:01,560 Speaker 1: other industries will literally murder someone for. So it's no 685 00:47:01,719 --> 00:47:08,040 Speaker 1: surprise that they searched for you know, good rationalizations in 686 00:47:08,080 --> 00:47:12,120 Speaker 1: their perspective to keep making this hand over fist money 687 00:47:12,160 --> 00:47:18,320 Speaker 1: at multiple at multiple levels. And you know, the question 688 00:47:18,440 --> 00:47:22,520 Speaker 1: is how how could this process be improved? You know 689 00:47:22,920 --> 00:47:26,840 Speaker 1: another question I would pose it is, um is this 690 00:47:27,000 --> 00:47:33,360 Speaker 1: current model is it actually helping spread scientific innovation or 691 00:47:33,440 --> 00:47:38,040 Speaker 1: is it stymy that innovation? Right, there are a lot 692 00:47:38,080 --> 00:47:41,080 Speaker 1: of there are a lot of poor scientists, you know, 693 00:47:41,520 --> 00:47:47,080 Speaker 1: brilliant people who would depend upon an institution, maybe a 694 00:47:47,200 --> 00:47:52,040 Speaker 1: cash strapped institution, to get access to the current research. 695 00:47:52,360 --> 00:47:55,560 Speaker 1: If you are working scientists and you are working a 696 00:47:55,680 --> 00:47:59,319 Speaker 1: year behind, you are in trouble, you know what I mean. 697 00:48:00,080 --> 00:48:03,560 Speaker 1: So this, this seems like a it seems like a 698 00:48:03,600 --> 00:48:07,279 Speaker 1: bad faith argument. I'm really willing to be wrong about it. 699 00:48:07,320 --> 00:48:10,520 Speaker 1: But it's hard to look at those kind of profit 700 00:48:10,600 --> 00:48:14,280 Speaker 1: margins and then look at that letter to the administration 701 00:48:14,760 --> 00:48:19,399 Speaker 1: and think that there sincerely arguing for a greater good, 702 00:48:19,800 --> 00:48:23,000 Speaker 1: you know, unless that greater good is Q four profits. 703 00:48:23,520 --> 00:48:27,239 Speaker 1: Thank you for that depressing sense of it, because I 704 00:48:27,280 --> 00:48:31,520 Speaker 1: think you're right. Uh, what do you what do you say? 705 00:48:31,520 --> 00:48:33,360 Speaker 1: Because there's one last thing we need to get into, 706 00:48:33,440 --> 00:48:35,160 Speaker 1: or actually they're like two last things we need to 707 00:48:35,160 --> 00:48:38,439 Speaker 1: get into before we finish the story. Let's go ahead 708 00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,600 Speaker 1: and take a break right now. We'll come right back 709 00:48:41,160 --> 00:48:45,680 Speaker 1: and we'll just taking more into the corruption. Here we go, 710 00:48:52,840 --> 00:48:57,160 Speaker 1: and we're back, to paraphrase Alice in Wonderland, corrupter and corrupt. 711 00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:02,920 Speaker 1: So multiple academic some researchers find themselves in a strange 712 00:49:02,960 --> 00:49:06,240 Speaker 1: situation when it comes to publishing. They submit a paper 713 00:49:06,280 --> 00:49:10,080 Speaker 1: for evaluation, and then one or more of the peer 714 00:49:10,200 --> 00:49:14,760 Speaker 1: reviewers responds saying, this paper is okay, but you can't 715 00:49:14,760 --> 00:49:19,640 Speaker 1: publish it yet because you didn't cite the following preceding papers. 716 00:49:19,680 --> 00:49:23,200 Speaker 1: They are vital to this work. They're vital to this conversation. 717 00:49:23,640 --> 00:49:27,200 Speaker 1: Your paper cannot be published without them. And the Kicker, 718 00:49:27,840 --> 00:49:35,200 Speaker 1: the Christopher guest im Nights, Shamalan plot wrinkle of all this. Sometimes, folks, 719 00:49:35,200 --> 00:49:41,160 Speaker 1: those needed citations our papers written by the same person 720 00:49:41,239 --> 00:49:46,040 Speaker 1: who said you have to put them in your work. Yeah, 721 00:49:46,320 --> 00:49:50,120 Speaker 1: you know, Uh, I'm just getting a quick story. I 722 00:49:50,560 --> 00:49:55,560 Speaker 1: experienced that that exact thing we made. We we made 723 00:49:55,560 --> 00:50:00,880 Speaker 1: a show called Unobscured that I remember, and we we 724 00:50:00,960 --> 00:50:04,120 Speaker 1: used a ton of books as our research. One of 725 00:50:04,160 --> 00:50:06,879 Speaker 1: them was I'm not even going to say the name 726 00:50:06,880 --> 00:50:10,560 Speaker 1: of the book. It was written by an author that 727 00:50:10,600 --> 00:50:12,799 Speaker 1: found a lot of success with a book she wrote 728 00:50:12,840 --> 00:50:16,360 Speaker 1: about the same witch trials. And and we spoke to 729 00:50:16,480 --> 00:50:19,680 Speaker 1: a ton of people in the academic sphere who have 730 00:50:20,280 --> 00:50:24,440 Speaker 1: who have researched this this period of history, specifically you know, 731 00:50:24,600 --> 00:50:29,879 Speaker 1: in the Massachusetts area, in the history of the witch 732 00:50:29,880 --> 00:50:34,920 Speaker 1: trials themselves, and to a person almost in the academic sphere. 733 00:50:35,440 --> 00:50:38,720 Speaker 1: They did not like the work of this popular author. 734 00:50:39,360 --> 00:50:44,160 Speaker 1: And it was often because she didn't specifically cite these 735 00:50:44,160 --> 00:50:49,040 Speaker 1: other academic researchers in her work. Um. It was almost 736 00:50:49,120 --> 00:50:53,200 Speaker 1: like they were saying, oh, yeah, well she's she's standing 737 00:50:53,239 --> 00:50:55,439 Speaker 1: on the backs of giants, but she didn't even think 738 00:50:55,480 --> 00:50:58,920 Speaker 1: to mention the giants upon which she stands, which is, 739 00:50:59,080 --> 00:51:03,600 Speaker 1: you know, sometimes a a real critique, but often it was. 740 00:51:03,719 --> 00:51:06,719 Speaker 1: It was brought with such anger, I think, in resentment 741 00:51:06,920 --> 00:51:11,480 Speaker 1: from the academic sphere because I guess because of that, 742 00:51:11,520 --> 00:51:16,280 Speaker 1: you didn't you didn't cite the right papers basically, Uh see, yeah, 743 00:51:16,520 --> 00:51:19,280 Speaker 1: I mean it's a big deal. People want to be credited, 744 00:51:19,360 --> 00:51:24,600 Speaker 1: you know. Um, And I'm not surprised you ran into that. Uh. 745 00:51:24,600 --> 00:51:28,880 Speaker 1: It's it's also important to say this isn't necessarily always 746 00:51:28,920 --> 00:51:35,880 Speaker 1: sinister or corrupt. There are very ethical professionals and working 747 00:51:35,880 --> 00:51:39,760 Speaker 1: scientists and scholars who are right when they say, look, 748 00:51:39,920 --> 00:51:45,760 Speaker 1: you need to cite this thing. Um. I did it often. 749 00:51:46,080 --> 00:51:49,840 Speaker 1: I am one of the many authors who contributed work 750 00:51:50,040 --> 00:51:55,239 Speaker 1: to this earlier this earlier research. Um. But but it 751 00:51:55,360 --> 00:52:00,560 Speaker 1: is inescapable. We must admit that because pause of the 752 00:52:00,600 --> 00:52:04,719 Speaker 1: way the system works, every time these peers get their 753 00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:09,319 Speaker 1: papers sighted, it ups their own recognition it ups their 754 00:52:09,400 --> 00:52:15,320 Speaker 1: own street cred. They're therefore incentivized, right. That is inescapable. 755 00:52:15,360 --> 00:52:17,920 Speaker 1: That's simply true. It's almost like I was trying to 756 00:52:17,920 --> 00:52:20,640 Speaker 1: think of an analogy for this man. It's almost like 757 00:52:22,280 --> 00:52:26,280 Speaker 1: imagine you and me and Paul are in a band 758 00:52:26,960 --> 00:52:31,680 Speaker 1: and we are in talks with the record label and 759 00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:34,960 Speaker 1: we're like pent in the way there. The album is 760 00:52:34,960 --> 00:52:39,000 Speaker 1: about to come out, and then this executive whose job 761 00:52:39,080 --> 00:52:42,040 Speaker 1: is just a green light stuff comes in and says, Okay, 762 00:52:42,320 --> 00:52:45,240 Speaker 1: we can make your album, but I need to be 763 00:52:45,800 --> 00:52:49,640 Speaker 1: in all of the songwriting credits. You need to just 764 00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:53,720 Speaker 1: put my name there. You know, I'm Dave Davidson and 765 00:52:53,840 --> 00:52:58,480 Speaker 1: I need songwriting credit. Um or the deal is not 766 00:52:58,560 --> 00:53:05,080 Speaker 1: happening because otherwise it won't be a credible album. Does 767 00:53:05,200 --> 00:53:07,719 Speaker 1: bring a lot of credibility. That's still one of my 768 00:53:07,760 --> 00:53:10,000 Speaker 1: favorite names. I use that in sketch comedy. I get 769 00:53:10,000 --> 00:53:11,719 Speaker 1: to send that one to you. It's good. But this 770 00:53:11,800 --> 00:53:15,360 Speaker 1: is a potentially dangerous feedback loop. And I have to 771 00:53:15,400 --> 00:53:20,320 Speaker 1: ask you, um, not for your for your experience. UM 772 00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:24,600 Speaker 1: when you were involved with that with Unobscured, what what 773 00:53:24,640 --> 00:53:26,640 Speaker 1: was your vibe? Do you feel like these people were 774 00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:31,160 Speaker 1: acting in good faith. I mean they're they're not wrong, right. Uh, 775 00:53:31,200 --> 00:53:35,239 Speaker 1: there were concepts that were first published and say, an 776 00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,640 Speaker 1: academic journal by a specific person, that were then used 777 00:53:39,680 --> 00:53:43,560 Speaker 1: to develop the story for that popular author. Um, and 778 00:53:43,640 --> 00:53:46,720 Speaker 1: that author didn't you know, and made no recognition of 779 00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:52,080 Speaker 1: the previous work. But I thoroughly enjoyed reading the popular 780 00:53:52,120 --> 00:53:55,440 Speaker 1: author's book, and I got a little board reading some 781 00:53:55,480 --> 00:53:58,840 Speaker 1: of the other and more academic books. Uh So, I 782 00:53:58,840 --> 00:54:02,360 Speaker 1: don't know, there's this weird thing where it's like, it 783 00:54:02,400 --> 00:54:06,279 Speaker 1: would have been nice if those citations were made right, 784 00:54:06,400 --> 00:54:08,040 Speaker 1: it would have been very nice and probably the right 785 00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:11,120 Speaker 1: thing to do. But in the end, the result is 786 00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:13,719 Speaker 1: I enjoyed reading one where somebody put a bunch of 787 00:54:13,719 --> 00:54:20,400 Speaker 1: these ideas together without citing those authors. Mm hmmmm. And 788 00:54:20,440 --> 00:54:25,720 Speaker 1: there's sort of a bridge, I guess, right, or there's 789 00:54:25,760 --> 00:54:32,040 Speaker 1: some kind of chasms across sometimes. But so let's talk 790 00:54:32,080 --> 00:54:36,600 Speaker 1: about this feedback loop again. These peer reviewers are volunteers. 791 00:54:36,680 --> 00:54:40,040 Speaker 1: Often do they have a horse in the race. Yes, 792 00:54:40,480 --> 00:54:45,000 Speaker 1: that's not necessarily their fault. They didn't create this system, 793 00:54:45,040 --> 00:54:49,160 Speaker 1: but when they publish, it can help their reputation and 794 00:54:49,200 --> 00:54:52,120 Speaker 1: their career. When their previous work is cited, it also 795 00:54:52,200 --> 00:54:56,000 Speaker 1: ups their reputation and their career, so they are incentivized again. 796 00:54:56,040 --> 00:54:59,880 Speaker 1: And if they are being unethical, then it's possible to 797 00:55:00,080 --> 00:55:04,880 Speaker 1: they could uh just go all gas, no breaks to 798 00:55:04,920 --> 00:55:07,520 Speaker 1: get their work. It's cited as often as possible, and 799 00:55:07,560 --> 00:55:11,479 Speaker 1: it might sound brazen, but can you blame them? Uh? 800 00:55:11,520 --> 00:55:16,200 Speaker 1: And again, you know this is I hope that it's 801 00:55:16,200 --> 00:55:18,359 Speaker 1: clear that we're pointing out in that case, we're pointing 802 00:55:18,360 --> 00:55:22,680 Speaker 1: out bad apple situations. Right I like I I like 803 00:55:22,840 --> 00:55:27,279 Speaker 1: to think personally that, um, the majority of peer reviewers 804 00:55:27,760 --> 00:55:30,600 Speaker 1: when they're saying these are articles that you should cite, 805 00:55:30,960 --> 00:55:36,000 Speaker 1: they're talking purely about the legitimacy of the preceding research, right, 806 00:55:36,160 --> 00:55:40,719 Speaker 1: Like they're saying, you know, not me, but you need 807 00:55:40,760 --> 00:55:43,680 Speaker 1: to site like I'm not Dave Davidson, but you need 808 00:55:43,719 --> 00:55:49,080 Speaker 1: to cite Dave Davidson's work on the evolving printing aspects 809 00:55:49,200 --> 00:55:53,319 Speaker 1: of tarot cards in the seventeenth century, because that is 810 00:55:53,480 --> 00:55:59,560 Speaker 1: clearly what your analysis of, you know, the printing press 811 00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:03,799 Speaker 1: in the nineteen centuries based on whatever I'm making up 812 00:56:03,880 --> 00:56:06,239 Speaker 1: these examples. But the other part, if we stay with 813 00:56:06,360 --> 00:56:10,799 Speaker 1: Dr diner Stein's comparison to Hollywood, which I quite like, 814 00:56:11,239 --> 00:56:15,440 Speaker 1: is the the idea of celebrity scientists. And we're not 815 00:56:15,480 --> 00:56:18,160 Speaker 1: talking about Neil Degrass Tyson here. We're not talking about 816 00:56:18,640 --> 00:56:22,640 Speaker 1: who is a scientist. We're not talking about science popularizers. Right, 817 00:56:22,719 --> 00:56:26,360 Speaker 1: We're talking about people that you may not have heard 818 00:56:26,400 --> 00:56:30,799 Speaker 1: of if you are not in the field of ophthalmology, 819 00:56:30,840 --> 00:56:33,840 Speaker 1: but if you are an ophthalmologist, you have almost certainly 820 00:56:33,920 --> 00:56:36,319 Speaker 1: heard their name. Well, yeah, you think about this way. 821 00:56:36,360 --> 00:56:39,440 Speaker 1: If you were somebody I don't know, like Paul Mission 822 00:56:39,440 --> 00:56:43,160 Speaker 1: Control decade and uh, you are a filmmaker and you 823 00:56:43,200 --> 00:56:47,439 Speaker 1: aspire for even more filmmaking in your future. Every time 824 00:56:47,560 --> 00:56:51,040 Speaker 1: your name pops up somewhere in the credits, that's legitimacy. 825 00:56:51,160 --> 00:56:53,160 Speaker 1: So if you want to have somebody like an Aliss actor, 826 00:56:53,239 --> 00:56:56,200 Speaker 1: let's say Bradley Cooper, to be in your next work, um, 827 00:56:56,320 --> 00:56:59,080 Speaker 1: you have to gain enough credibility to have brad say, oh, yeah, 828 00:56:59,080 --> 00:57:01,279 Speaker 1: I want to be in Mission controls next thing. And 829 00:57:01,280 --> 00:57:03,560 Speaker 1: if you get somebody like Bradley in your film, a 830 00:57:03,560 --> 00:57:05,680 Speaker 1: lot more people are gonna watch your film. And if 831 00:57:05,680 --> 00:57:08,680 Speaker 1: a lot more people watch your film and know your name, 832 00:57:08,920 --> 00:57:11,040 Speaker 1: they're gonna watch the next thing, or it's gonna at 833 00:57:11,120 --> 00:57:13,520 Speaker 1: least increase your chances that you get the next one 834 00:57:13,719 --> 00:57:20,080 Speaker 1: made right M Yeah, exactly. And this happens in academia 835 00:57:20,200 --> 00:57:24,000 Speaker 1: as well. That that's why a lot of independent filmmakers 836 00:57:24,720 --> 00:57:28,520 Speaker 1: really want to get known names. That's why if you 837 00:57:28,640 --> 00:57:32,840 Speaker 1: become what's called a breakout star, it's much easier for 838 00:57:32,920 --> 00:57:36,320 Speaker 1: you to get roles as an actor, even if you're 839 00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:41,800 Speaker 1: not the perfect individual to play that role. Uh. Many scholars, 840 00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:46,120 Speaker 1: as a result, end up collaborating with an established famous 841 00:57:46,120 --> 00:57:51,960 Speaker 1: in their field, scientists who seems to on paper publish 842 00:57:52,040 --> 00:57:55,000 Speaker 1: stuff all the time because their name is one of 843 00:57:55,040 --> 00:57:59,720 Speaker 1: the several that's on like fifty or sixty papers a year. 844 00:57:59,800 --> 00:58:03,440 Speaker 1: And again, this is shout out to uh Dr Andrew 845 00:58:03,480 --> 00:58:07,240 Speaker 1: Stapleton for talking about this. Check out his video because 846 00:58:07,280 --> 00:58:10,560 Speaker 1: he's again he just he got to me, man, he's charming. 847 00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,440 Speaker 1: He's charming the way he presents it, and he's correct. 848 00:58:13,920 --> 00:58:18,520 Speaker 1: So he said that there will be a lot of 849 00:58:18,560 --> 00:58:23,440 Speaker 1: these superstar scholars who seem like they publish or collaborate 850 00:58:23,480 --> 00:58:26,320 Speaker 1: on a ton of papers, but they're kind of functioning. 851 00:58:27,200 --> 00:58:28,720 Speaker 1: And this is my words here, so I don't mean 852 00:58:28,760 --> 00:58:32,000 Speaker 1: to paraphrase you, Dr Stapleton, but they're kind of functioning. 853 00:58:32,000 --> 00:58:36,120 Speaker 1: Is somewhere between a brand name and the best kind 854 00:58:36,120 --> 00:58:39,640 Speaker 1: of a first past editor. And they are incentivized to 855 00:58:39,720 --> 00:58:42,280 Speaker 1: do this because every time they do it, it doesn't 856 00:58:42,320 --> 00:58:46,920 Speaker 1: just help the up and coming person publishing, but it 857 00:58:47,040 --> 00:58:50,360 Speaker 1: helps them keep their name at a high level of visibility. 858 00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:54,040 Speaker 1: It creates a feedback loop. So this isn't to say 859 00:58:54,080 --> 00:58:58,440 Speaker 1: people should stop conducting research and stop sharing it. Instead, 860 00:58:58,600 --> 00:59:03,400 Speaker 1: it's important to be realistic and transparent about the problems 861 00:59:03,440 --> 00:59:05,920 Speaker 1: in this industry. And there are a lot of problems 862 00:59:05,920 --> 00:59:10,320 Speaker 1: in this industry. Corruption and conspiracy there have been reported 863 00:59:10,440 --> 00:59:16,040 Speaker 1: by multitudes of credible scholars and scientists across multiple fields 864 00:59:16,040 --> 00:59:19,720 Speaker 1: of study. Initiatives like that push for open access, continue 865 00:59:19,760 --> 00:59:23,680 Speaker 1: to date, as does another related movement to make these 866 00:59:23,760 --> 00:59:27,120 Speaker 1: journals fully digital. But let's be honest. With all the 867 00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:31,919 Speaker 1: other problems bessetting current civilizations, some of which are existential, 868 00:59:32,640 --> 00:59:35,800 Speaker 1: this one doesn't often get reported to the public at large. No, 869 00:59:35,880 --> 00:59:39,880 Speaker 1: not at all. I want to make one more citation here, Ben, 870 00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:44,120 Speaker 1: It's a charming video made by a philon named Zachary Foster. 871 00:59:44,680 --> 00:59:47,600 Speaker 1: It's called the Academic publishing Industry is Dying You You 872 00:59:47,680 --> 00:59:51,680 Speaker 1: found this video, Ben, and it's it's just makes a 873 00:59:51,720 --> 00:59:56,240 Speaker 1: great point and again charming fellow, Zach nice work. Um. 874 00:59:56,280 --> 00:59:58,520 Speaker 1: It makes a point that these subscription models that we 875 00:59:58,560 --> 01:00:02,880 Speaker 1: mentioned at the top here that academic institutions pay to 876 01:00:02,960 --> 01:00:07,120 Speaker 1: have access to these academic journals are often exorbitant, like 877 01:00:07,200 --> 01:00:11,800 Speaker 1: millions of dollars a year to give every student in 878 01:00:11,920 --> 01:00:14,480 Speaker 1: your you know, at like let's say at the University 879 01:00:14,480 --> 01:00:18,400 Speaker 1: of California, you'd pay one and a half million dollars 880 01:00:18,520 --> 01:00:20,400 Speaker 1: up to five million dollars a year to have all 881 01:00:20,480 --> 01:00:23,640 Speaker 1: your give all your students access to certain academic journals 882 01:00:23,640 --> 01:00:28,040 Speaker 1: through a publisher. And they just realized, this is kind 883 01:00:28,040 --> 01:00:30,240 Speaker 1: of crazy. This is way too much money for this. 884 01:00:31,280 --> 01:00:32,960 Speaker 1: But now that there's an all a cart system that 885 01:00:33,000 --> 01:00:36,120 Speaker 1: we all Tram also mentioned, why don't we just get 886 01:00:36,200 --> 01:00:39,000 Speaker 1: rid of that subscription that we pay for and any 887 01:00:39,040 --> 01:00:41,640 Speaker 1: time a student or a professor and needs access to 888 01:00:41,680 --> 01:00:43,840 Speaker 1: an article, they will just get access and will pay 889 01:00:43,840 --> 01:00:45,720 Speaker 1: for it at that point, right, I mean the point 890 01:00:45,720 --> 01:00:49,840 Speaker 1: of sale. Um. And they saved Corey's Zach and the research. 891 01:00:49,880 --> 01:00:52,760 Speaker 1: There's stuff out of Berkeley News that he's citing. Uh, 892 01:00:52,800 --> 01:00:57,600 Speaker 1: they saved nineties seven percent of the academic journal costs 893 01:00:57,720 --> 01:00:59,919 Speaker 1: by going that route rather than just paying a bulk 894 01:01:00,000 --> 01:01:03,120 Speaker 1: subscription cost. I'm really glad you mentioned this one because 895 01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:05,120 Speaker 1: I felt like I knew this was gonna go along, 896 01:01:05,160 --> 01:01:07,280 Speaker 1: and I felt like we didn't have time to dive 897 01:01:07,440 --> 01:01:11,720 Speaker 1: into that, like the question of whether it's dying is 898 01:01:12,240 --> 01:01:17,720 Speaker 1: a related question. Um, but yeah, agree, And I looked 899 01:01:17,720 --> 01:01:21,120 Speaker 1: into some of this stuff that that is being referenced there, 900 01:01:21,600 --> 01:01:26,120 Speaker 1: and it's legit. It's these again, these are very very 901 01:01:26,160 --> 01:01:29,560 Speaker 1: intelligent people and they are not making this stuff up. 902 01:01:30,080 --> 01:01:35,720 Speaker 1: These like the nepotism, the corruption, the back door deals, 903 01:01:36,040 --> 01:01:40,080 Speaker 1: the money changing hands, it's all true, and it just 904 01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:44,440 Speaker 1: gets kind of ignored by by the public at large, 905 01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:48,480 Speaker 1: to the detriment not to be hyperbolic, but to the 906 01:01:48,520 --> 01:01:55,240 Speaker 1: detriment of scientific progress. So with that, with that in mind, um, 907 01:01:55,280 --> 01:01:56,720 Speaker 1: you know, I'm sure we had a lot of our 908 01:01:56,800 --> 01:02:00,800 Speaker 1: fellow conspiracy realists with us today listening and getting getting 909 01:02:00,840 --> 01:02:05,640 Speaker 1: a few uh like hell yeahs or amens or shake 910 01:02:05,680 --> 01:02:09,760 Speaker 1: and fist and solidarity. Uh. If this is you, then 911 01:02:10,360 --> 01:02:15,280 Speaker 1: best of luck in your academic career. You are doing 912 01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:19,320 Speaker 1: important work and we have your backs. We also want 913 01:02:19,360 --> 01:02:23,120 Speaker 1: to know what you think, whether or not you're in 914 01:02:23,160 --> 01:02:26,280 Speaker 1: the academy. Have you had any personal run ins with 915 01:02:26,360 --> 01:02:30,240 Speaker 1: the strange events we've outlined above. If so, what do 916 01:02:30,280 --> 01:02:33,920 Speaker 1: you think could improve these situations? I love when we 917 01:02:33,960 --> 01:02:36,479 Speaker 1: get to do this, where we get to say, here 918 01:02:36,480 --> 01:02:39,240 Speaker 1: are the problems, here's the stuff they don't want you 919 01:02:39,280 --> 01:02:41,760 Speaker 1: to know. This is the these are the facts, this 920 01:02:41,880 --> 01:02:48,240 Speaker 1: is the crazy stuff. Factual or not? Fix it for us. So, 921 01:02:48,360 --> 01:02:51,160 Speaker 1: if you happen to have the answer, if you have, 922 01:02:51,320 --> 01:02:54,040 Speaker 1: if you have figured out how to solve this, uh, 923 01:02:54,280 --> 01:02:57,360 Speaker 1: please do contact us. We try to be easy to 924 01:02:57,520 --> 01:03:02,880 Speaker 1: find online. That's right. Tell us all your ways to 925 01:03:04,120 --> 01:03:08,280 Speaker 1: validate and verify scientific research without having to use this model. 926 01:03:08,720 --> 01:03:12,720 Speaker 1: You can reach us on Twitter and Facebook and YouTube. 927 01:03:12,760 --> 01:03:15,920 Speaker 1: We are at Conspiracy Stuff on Instagram we are at 928 01:03:16,000 --> 01:03:19,080 Speaker 1: Conspiracy Stuff Show. We also have a phone number you 929 01:03:19,120 --> 01:03:21,480 Speaker 1: can call. It is one eight three three st d 930 01:03:21,760 --> 01:03:24,000 Speaker 1: w y t K. When you call in, you've got 931 01:03:24,000 --> 01:03:26,440 Speaker 1: three minutes to leave a message. Please give yourself a 932 01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:28,680 Speaker 1: cool nickname. Let us know if we can use your 933 01:03:28,720 --> 01:03:31,760 Speaker 1: voice and message on the air. If not, that's totally fine. Again, 934 01:03:31,840 --> 01:03:34,439 Speaker 1: just let us know. If you've got more to say 935 01:03:34,480 --> 01:03:37,480 Speaker 1: than can fit in that three minute voicemail message, why 936 01:03:37,480 --> 01:03:40,400 Speaker 1: not instead send us a good old fashioned email we 937 01:03:40,480 --> 01:04:02,720 Speaker 1: are conspiracy at i heart radio dot com. Yeah, stuff 938 01:04:02,760 --> 01:04:04,640 Speaker 1: they don't want you to know. Is a production of 939 01:04:04,720 --> 01:04:07,680 Speaker 1: I heart Radio. For more podcasts for my heart Radio, 940 01:04:07,800 --> 01:04:10,640 Speaker 1: visit the i heart radio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever 941 01:04:10,720 --> 01:04:12,040 Speaker 1: you listen to your favorite shows.