WEBVTT - Dan Clancy 0:00:08.600 --> 0:00:13.640 Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Website's podcast. My guest 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:19.680 today is Dan Plants Ceio with Twitch. Dan, what is Twitch? 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:23.320 Well, first of all, Bob, thanks for having me. What 0:00:23.560 --> 0:00:26.239 is Twitch? So? Twitch is a live streaming service. I 0:00:26.720 --> 0:00:28.360 expect a lot of people have heard of it that 0:00:28.400 --> 0:00:32.640 are listening. But it's kind of like you two. But 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:37.120 we focus completely on live content, so we have tons 0:00:37.200 --> 0:00:40.400 of user generated content where creators go there every day 0:00:41.000 --> 0:00:44.120 to create content and live stream to their audience. 0:00:45.120 --> 0:00:47.760 And how about archiving? Do you archive anything? 0:00:48.560 --> 0:00:52.680 We have a brief period of archive, different policies, but 0:00:52.760 --> 0:00:56.080 our focus is not on archive. In general, people use 0:00:56.120 --> 0:00:59.040 other platforms this. Our focus is for the live, the 0:00:59.120 --> 0:01:02.360 live experience, and the archive is really just uses catch up, 0:01:02.880 --> 0:01:04.280 not as a long term archive. 0:01:05.200 --> 0:01:08.600 Okay, let's say someone is a total newbie, how do 0:01:08.680 --> 0:01:09.959 they get started with Twitch? 0:01:11.600 --> 0:01:15.000 So, Bob, you know what I was saying. As opposed 0:01:15.000 --> 0:01:17.600 to a newbie how to get started with Twitch? I 0:01:17.640 --> 0:01:20.200 think it might be useful to start with a newbie, 0:01:20.880 --> 0:01:23.160 what do the viewers get from Twitch? Because if somebody 0:01:23.200 --> 0:01:26.559 doesn't understand Twitch, I always find it's best to start 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:29.679 with what the audience cares about. And then talk about 0:01:29.720 --> 0:01:32.880 how somebody starts creating with Twitch. Does that make sense? 0:01:33.240 --> 0:01:34.399 Absolutely, go for it. 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:37.720 Okay, Okay, So let me describe where Twitch fits in 0:01:37.800 --> 0:01:40.640 the law of the broader space of social media and 0:01:40.680 --> 0:01:43.679 all that. And it's in this very unique spaces. It's 0:01:43.760 --> 0:01:47.039 between it's long form content. In fact, one thing that 0:01:47.080 --> 0:01:48.960 I think we'll talk about, Bob, I want to talk 0:01:49.040 --> 0:01:51.720 some about long form content and music, which is the album, 0:01:51.720 --> 0:01:55.440 which is long form content, and Twitch is long form content. 0:01:56.080 --> 0:01:58.800 But it's also social. So in some ways it's an 0:01:58.840 --> 0:02:03.040 alternative to sitting watching Netflix or Prime Video or something 0:02:03.040 --> 0:02:05.640 like that, because people tend to sit and watch for 0:02:05.760 --> 0:02:09.280 thirty an hour, two hours something like that, but you 0:02:09.360 --> 0:02:11.760 do it with other people, which is a community. Okay. 0:02:11.840 --> 0:02:15.200 And the magic what I've always said about Twitch is 0:02:16.000 --> 0:02:18.840 you have some creator that you care about, that you're 0:02:18.880 --> 0:02:21.560 interested in. If you're a musician, of course, musicians you're 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:27.720 interested in. And your audience of fans become a community 0:02:27.760 --> 0:02:30.720 because they spend time watching you and they're just sort 0:02:30.720 --> 0:02:32.880 of hanging out with you, and over time they get 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:36.600 to know each other. So an analogy that you will 0:02:36.639 --> 0:02:40.480 appreciate because we're in a similar age demographic. What I say, 0:02:40.480 --> 0:02:44.119 it's kind of like cheers, a place where everybody knows 0:02:44.120 --> 0:02:47.040 your name, that you show up and everyone says hey, 0:02:47.080 --> 0:02:49.520 nor as soon as you show up the Twitch, And 0:02:49.520 --> 0:02:52.000 that's what happens on Twitch, and the way I describe 0:02:52.000 --> 0:02:55.239 it is I think today in some ways social media 0:02:55.320 --> 0:02:58.880 is now antisocial, whereas what happens with Twitch is you 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:02.040 really form a community bond from people that spend time 0:03:02.560 --> 0:03:04.720 watching somebody they care about together while they're a. 0:03:04.680 --> 0:03:09.280 Live Okay, that's the concept. Let's go back to my 0:03:09.400 --> 0:03:12.440 earlier question. Let's say I'm a newbie. How do I 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:13.080 get started? 0:03:13.600 --> 0:03:15.760 Okay, it's pretty simple. You just go to Twitch and 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:17.920 you create an account and you start streaming. 0:03:19.040 --> 0:03:23.400 Okay, let's buy for Katie here. Let's say you know, 0:03:23.840 --> 0:03:27.440 I want to view other streams. How do I find out? 0:03:27.480 --> 0:03:28.239 What is there? 0:03:28.760 --> 0:03:32.040 Yeah? So when you come to Twitch, you come we 0:03:32.440 --> 0:03:34.720 allow you to search for creators. This is one thing 0:03:34.760 --> 0:03:37.320 that's different, not different, but the way you should think 0:03:37.320 --> 0:03:40.200 about Twitch. Most people they don't just come to twitch 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.280 without anyone that they want to see. Okay. That Usually 0:03:44.360 --> 0:03:47.080 when you come to twitch, it's because you've already been 0:03:47.120 --> 0:03:49.720 exposed to somebody that you know that you have an 0:03:49.720 --> 0:03:53.520 affinity with. If you come to Twitch and you don't 0:03:53.560 --> 0:03:56.880 know anything about anyone, to be honest, it's kind of 0:03:56.920 --> 0:03:59.880 hard to get deep into something. Okay. The way I 0:04:00.040 --> 0:04:02.840 describe it is suppose you're watching a movie or something 0:04:02.840 --> 0:04:07.160 on Netflix and there's a TV series and you don't 0:04:07.200 --> 0:04:10.480 know any of the actors, and none of your friends 0:04:10.520 --> 0:04:13.720 told you it was good, so you have no reason 0:04:13.800 --> 0:04:15.760 to think this is entertaining. It's kind of tough to 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:19.680 just watch a TV series, right or a movie. And 0:04:19.800 --> 0:04:22.760 with Twitch, usually when you come to Twitch, there's a 0:04:22.800 --> 0:04:25.560 Twitch streamer that you've heard about, that you've seen on 0:04:25.600 --> 0:04:28.880 social media, a musician somebody, and you're coming to watch. 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:34.040 Then you're not coming to Twitch, you're coming for the creator, Okay. 0:04:35.160 --> 0:04:39.839 In terms of the content, Twitch is famous for live 0:04:40.000 --> 0:04:45.440 video gaming. What percentage of watching is video games? 0:04:45.720 --> 0:04:49.720 Yeah? So now video games, it's about sixty five to 0:04:49.760 --> 0:04:52.080 seventy percent of hours watched overall. 0:04:52.800 --> 0:04:56.400 And what are the other thirty thirty five percent? 0:04:57.080 --> 0:05:00.040 The other thirty thirty five percent is kind of what 0:05:00.080 --> 0:05:02.320 ever you can think of. But I'll talk about where 0:05:02.360 --> 0:05:05.960 the main stuff is. A big category is what's called 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:10.520 just chatting we're basically someone is just hanging out chatting 0:05:10.520 --> 0:05:14.440 with their community, okay, talking to them, answering questions. But 0:05:14.480 --> 0:05:18.640 then that quickly then pivots into they might be cooking, 0:05:19.640 --> 0:05:21.919 they might be in music. There are a lot of 0:05:21.920 --> 0:05:24.000 folks now and we'll talk more about this that might 0:05:24.080 --> 0:05:28.360 be mixing music or creating music. Okay. A big thing 0:05:28.480 --> 0:05:31.839 is what's called IRL or in real life stream, where 0:05:31.880 --> 0:05:34.040 people go out into the real world with a camera 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:38.360 and they're doing something at an event somewhere and interacting 0:05:38.400 --> 0:05:41.279 with people, but it goes all the way. There's a 0:05:41.320 --> 0:05:44.880 pizza Princess g runs a pizza shop in Rochester, New York, 0:05:45.440 --> 0:05:48.159 where basically there's a camera on there and she's running 0:05:48.200 --> 0:05:53.040 her pizza shop talking to chat all the time. There's 0:05:53.160 --> 0:05:57.240 a family in Spain that runs a restaurant on Twitch. 0:05:57.320 --> 0:06:02.520 So people run their businesses on Twitch. People knit, people paint, birds, 0:06:02.600 --> 0:06:05.599 people fish, So kind of anything you can think of, 0:06:05.800 --> 0:06:08.240 there's probably somebody doing it live on Twitch. 0:06:08.680 --> 0:06:11.640 Okay, let's use one of those restaurants as an example 0:06:12.440 --> 0:06:15.800 how many people might be watching simultaneously. 0:06:16.480 --> 0:06:20.240 Yeah, So I will take the specific ones. There are 0:06:20.279 --> 0:06:23.240 two specific ones I'll talk about. One is piece of 0:06:23.240 --> 0:06:27.160 Princess g Another one is Royas del Gracias, which is 0:06:27.200 --> 0:06:31.680 a family run restaurant about forty five minutes outside of Barcelona. 0:06:32.720 --> 0:06:37.320 That is this wonderful mom and pop whose son got 0:06:37.320 --> 0:06:40.120 it going and they run a very much of a 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:44.719 family Spanish restaurant. Both those channels they average about a 0:06:44.839 --> 0:06:49.240 thousand what's called average concurrent viewers, which means at any 0:06:49.279 --> 0:06:51.920 point in time, there might be a thousand people watching them, 0:06:52.480 --> 0:06:54.760 and then over the course of a stream, if that 0:06:54.880 --> 0:06:59.359 streams like you know, four or five hours, you probably 0:06:59.440 --> 0:07:01.919 end up getting twenty or thirty thousand people will have 0:07:01.960 --> 0:07:04.839 come by during that four or five hours and have 0:07:04.920 --> 0:07:05.720 watched them. 0:07:06.200 --> 0:07:10.160 Okay, obviously this is a let's use the restaurants as example. 0:07:10.840 --> 0:07:13.680 These are established enterprises. How did they get started? 0:07:14.920 --> 0:07:17.800 So often they just started to do it. In fact, 0:07:17.840 --> 0:07:20.960 so many like what they just do is usually they 0:07:20.960 --> 0:07:24.520 have some type of I'll take the destrasias. Their son 0:07:24.840 --> 0:07:27.000 was someone who was kind of into social media and 0:07:27.040 --> 0:07:29.800 thinking about social media, and they hit their son came 0:07:29.920 --> 0:07:33.920 up with the idea. Okay. Oftentimes they combine this with 0:07:34.080 --> 0:07:38.239 other forms of social media, so they'll be creating short 0:07:38.240 --> 0:07:42.080 form content on YouTuber TikTok or Instagram and then they 0:07:42.160 --> 0:07:47.240 also are streaming on Twitch and it's usually the combination 0:07:47.400 --> 0:07:48.920 with helps grows them an audience. 0:07:49.480 --> 0:07:52.160 Let's say I tune into this pizza parlor. What am 0:07:52.200 --> 0:07:52.960 I gonna see? 0:07:53.440 --> 0:07:56.440 Yeah, what you'll see is she's sitting there making pizza, 0:07:56.480 --> 0:07:59.680 but she's reading Chat and she's interacting with Chat. Okay, 0:08:00.000 --> 0:08:02.440 I'll have people come on that she'll interact with Okay, 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:04.720 So a lot of times she's talking to Chat while 0:08:04.720 --> 0:08:08.040 she's sitting there making pizza. And sometimes she'll a lot 0:08:08.080 --> 0:08:11.080 of times they'll do fun stuff with Chat, Like sometimes 0:08:11.120 --> 0:08:13.120 they'll do something where somebody comes in and they have 0:08:13.240 --> 0:08:16.760 Chat choose the what what they're going to put on 0:08:16.800 --> 0:08:18.960 a pizza? Right, they do something fun like that, so 0:08:19.040 --> 0:08:22.080 the person gets that Chat creates a pizza. But the 0:08:22.120 --> 0:08:25.320 biggest thing is you just see her and the other 0:08:25.360 --> 0:08:30.120 folks in her workforce just living their life, but then 0:08:30.240 --> 0:08:32.640 engaging with their audience while they're doing it. 0:08:33.640 --> 0:08:36.040 What is the monetization for the restaurant. 0:08:36.600 --> 0:08:41.480 Yeah, so we monetize by two ways. We monetize by ads, 0:08:41.720 --> 0:08:45.560 but then we also monetize from money directly from the 0:08:45.640 --> 0:08:49.800 audience and to put it in a context. About seventy 0:08:49.840 --> 0:08:52.120 five percent of the money a creator will make is 0:08:52.160 --> 0:08:55.839 going to come directly from their audience, okay, and that 0:08:56.000 --> 0:09:00.000 comes primarily in two ways. One way is what's called 0:09:00.080 --> 0:09:04.200 to subscription. So when I get a subscription to a channel, 0:09:04.840 --> 0:09:08.160 it's not a subscription to access content as you normally 0:09:08.240 --> 0:09:11.160 think of a subscription, because the content is free. The 0:09:11.200 --> 0:09:14.760 subscription is a form of patronage. And when I subscribe 0:09:14.760 --> 0:09:16.920 to a channel, first of all, I get no ads, 0:09:16.960 --> 0:09:19.400 so it's ads free when I'm on the channel. But 0:09:19.480 --> 0:09:23.280 then I also get status in the community because I 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:27.600 am supporting this creator, right, and then you also get access. 0:09:27.880 --> 0:09:31.360 Creators all create what are emotes. These are really emoji 0:09:31.400 --> 0:09:35.679 cons which they create a language for their community, and 0:09:35.720 --> 0:09:39.000 they'll create one for happy, for sad, for cry, for whatever, 0:09:39.320 --> 0:09:42.920 and when you subscribe, now you get to speak that language. 0:09:43.200 --> 0:09:46.439 But the big reason for subscribing is really to support 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:49.760 the creator. And then I forget exactly how many years 0:09:49.760 --> 0:09:53.480 ago we added this concept of a gift subscription, okay, 0:09:53.559 --> 0:09:56.400 which was really important for Twitch. Over half of our 0:09:56.400 --> 0:10:00.520 revenue from subscriptions come from gift subscriptions, and that's where 0:10:00.840 --> 0:10:03.480 suppose I'm paying six months a month to subscribe to 0:10:03.480 --> 0:10:05.480 you right now. But right now, I'll only give you 0:10:05.520 --> 0:10:09.320 fifty bucks. Okay. What I do is that buy ten 0:10:09.760 --> 0:10:14.560 gift subscriptions, and these are subscriptions to go out to 0:10:14.640 --> 0:10:18.000 other members of the community. Okay, but really I'm the 0:10:18.040 --> 0:10:23.120 money all goes to you, okay, but psychologically, I'm giving 0:10:23.160 --> 0:10:25.840 the money to the community. And so the way I 0:10:25.960 --> 0:10:28.600 kind of describe it is, suppose you're watching someone busk 0:10:29.160 --> 0:10:31.280 and you go and drop five dollars in their hat, 0:10:32.200 --> 0:10:36.840 and now everyone who's watching gets some candy or something. Right, 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:40.240 what happens is everyone in the community goes, oh, thanks 0:10:40.240 --> 0:10:44.280 for the subscriptions, and they celebrate them. Okay, the creator 0:10:44.320 --> 0:10:48.800 celebrates them. So it's this form of patronage and acknowledgment 0:10:49.280 --> 0:10:54.080 which generates a meaningful amount of money for these people 0:10:54.160 --> 0:10:55.160 that are creating content. 0:10:55.800 --> 0:11:02.000 Okay. On a more granular level, something like, since we've 0:11:02.040 --> 0:11:05.080 been talking about something like the restaurant, how many of 0:11:05.160 --> 0:11:08.599 the people watching are subscribers? 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:12.679 It will probably be It varies a lot for different 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:17.079 sized channels, Okay, but I would probably say at any 0:11:17.160 --> 0:11:20.920 given time, think of it as five to ten percent 0:11:21.480 --> 0:11:24.120 or something like that. Ten percent maybe. 0:11:23.960 --> 0:11:26.360 Let's say I am the creator. 0:11:27.600 --> 0:11:27.680 A. 0:11:28.679 --> 0:11:31.520 How do I establish the price point? B? Is it 0:11:31.600 --> 0:11:34.680 like Patreon where you can have multiple price points or 0:11:34.720 --> 0:11:37.319 you know something like that. How do I do that? 0:11:37.840 --> 0:11:41.559 Yeah, so we go ahead and canonicalize the price points. Okay. 0:11:41.559 --> 0:11:43.480 There's been a lot of discussion of whether or not 0:11:43.880 --> 0:11:45.920 for different folks we should change that. But right now, 0:11:45.920 --> 0:11:50.200 we actually have three levels of subscription. Tier one, which 0:11:50.240 --> 0:11:52.440 is the default that most people get, Tier two, and 0:11:52.480 --> 0:11:57.200 Tier three, and it's in US it's six dollars. I 0:11:57.240 --> 0:12:00.440 think it's twelve dollars. I forget Tier two, and then 0:12:00.480 --> 0:12:03.920 twenty five dollars okay, and then you get some additional 0:12:04.000 --> 0:12:07.120 status and benefits if you have a Tier two or 0:12:07.160 --> 0:12:10.760 Tier three subscription. Okay, but most of the people are 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.240 Tier one subscriptions, and we made the decision to make 0:12:13.280 --> 0:12:16.880 it consistent across the site that everything has the same price, 0:12:16.880 --> 0:12:19.319 as opposed to having lots of price variability. 0:12:19.720 --> 0:12:26.120 Okay, to what degree does the creator have to say, hey, 0:12:26.280 --> 0:12:29.560 come on subscribe, come on subscribe, or is it in 0:12:29.600 --> 0:12:31.680 the window? How does that work? 0:12:32.160 --> 0:12:36.840 Well, it sort of happens naturally, meaning people that are 0:12:36.880 --> 0:12:39.600 watching Twitch kind of do it. So I'll use an 0:12:39.600 --> 0:12:43.280 example for myself, I stream not as much as I 0:12:43.280 --> 0:12:45.319 would like, okay, but I try to swim at least 0:12:45.320 --> 0:12:47.920 once a week. Now, any of Now, I don't need 0:12:48.240 --> 0:12:51.880 my audience to give me money, right and so, in fact, 0:12:51.920 --> 0:12:53.640 by the way, any of the money that I get 0:12:53.679 --> 0:12:56.960 from twitch, I go ahead and donate to charity. But 0:12:57.240 --> 0:12:59.440 people still subscribe to me all the time, and I 0:12:59.480 --> 0:13:02.920 don't do anything to try and encourage them. Now, most 0:13:02.960 --> 0:13:08.600 of our creators do things to encourage people to subscribe, okay, 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:12.679 to get the ball rolling. So I'll just go through 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:14.480 a few examples. First of all, one thing that we 0:13:14.520 --> 0:13:16.920 do is we have this thing called a hype train, 0:13:16.960 --> 0:13:22.360 which has been very successful, which once people start subscribing 0:13:22.559 --> 0:13:24.960 at the same time like a subscription or a gift, 0:13:25.320 --> 0:13:28.120 and you cross a threshold, then a hype train starts. 0:13:28.120 --> 0:13:30.520 And hype trains go to different levels, and I think 0:13:30.559 --> 0:13:33.080 the record is like level one hundred and ten, and 0:13:33.120 --> 0:13:36.199 as they get higher, we give out these emodes to 0:13:36.240 --> 0:13:39.240 the community. So the community gets excited and says, let's 0:13:39.240 --> 0:13:43.600 get level five, let's get level six, let's get level seven, right, 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:47.200 and of course the streamer is all excited. It's like, oh, 0:13:47.400 --> 0:13:49.920 I'm getting I'm on a level five hype train. Come on, guys, 0:13:50.000 --> 0:13:53.640 let's go to level six. Okay. So that's something that 0:13:53.679 --> 0:13:58.120 we do that creates this kind of moment okay, that 0:13:58.200 --> 0:14:01.160 gets lots of people saying, ooh, I want to be 0:14:01.200 --> 0:14:05.840 part of this okay. But then streamers will do a 0:14:05.880 --> 0:14:08.240 ton of stuff on their own okay. So for example, 0:14:08.240 --> 0:14:13.040 one thing that's very common twitch is people do like subathons, 0:14:13.080 --> 0:14:16.360 where they agree that if they reach so many subs, 0:14:16.400 --> 0:14:20.400 they'll do certain things. Okay. The other thing they do 0:14:20.480 --> 0:14:24.920 is sometimes they even stream for two weeks, three weeks, 0:14:25.080 --> 0:14:30.240 thirty days. Whereas people keep giving money, it extends how 0:14:30.280 --> 0:14:33.680 long they have to stream, okay. So they're kind of saying, 0:14:33.800 --> 0:14:37.920 I will stream so much time for every dollar I receive, 0:14:38.120 --> 0:14:41.280 and it has a counter so as people give money 0:14:41.320 --> 0:14:45.120 and they keep the stream going even while they're sleeping, okay. 0:14:45.640 --> 0:14:49.520 And so that creates this sort of communal experience and 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.720 excitement that gets everyone sort of contributing. So creators usually 0:14:53.800 --> 0:14:55.400 do a fair amount, but they don't have to. 0:14:56.160 --> 0:14:59.160 Are you familiar with this book? Just watch me by 0:14:59.240 --> 0:15:00.280 leor Tour? 0:15:01.040 --> 0:15:03.000 I am not. It sounds like one I need to read. 0:15:04.320 --> 0:15:06.440 You have to read it because it's exactly what you're 0:15:06.440 --> 0:15:10.160 talking about. It's a new book and it's about someone 0:15:10.160 --> 0:15:13.840 who live streams and is raising money, and it deals 0:15:13.880 --> 0:15:17.720 with all the concepts you're talking about. So you know, 0:15:17.880 --> 0:15:22.280 ultimately we can talk about the themes, which would be 0:15:22.400 --> 0:15:26.680 something different, but the mechanics are exactly what we're talking about. 0:15:27.120 --> 0:15:29.400 Just watch me Lee or l I O R, I 0:15:29.480 --> 0:15:29.920 see it, R. 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:32.880 I'll get it. I just searched on my computer and 0:15:32.920 --> 0:15:35.920 it's sitting right here for me to start reading. And 0:15:36.120 --> 0:15:38.080 by the way, one thing you mentioned, which is a 0:15:38.200 --> 0:15:41.400 really important thing to note. I mean a huge thing 0:15:41.440 --> 0:15:45.120 on Twitch is fundraising, and which is not surprising if 0:15:45.160 --> 0:15:47.720 you go back in fundraising and you think of Jerry 0:15:47.800 --> 0:15:51.800 Lewis telethon right, which was kind of the foundation of 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.000 fundraising Saint Jude's. I think they've raised over sixty million 0:15:56.120 --> 0:16:00.000 on Twitch from creators that actively do things on stream 0:16:00.200 --> 0:16:03.120 to raise money. And every year there are millions and 0:16:03.160 --> 0:16:07.120 millions of dollars raised by creators who decide that's a 0:16:07.120 --> 0:16:09.200 big part of what they want to do. And so 0:16:09.320 --> 0:16:12.640 as opposed to you know, they will do these things, 0:16:12.680 --> 0:16:15.320 but they do these things for contributions to a charity 0:16:15.360 --> 0:16:16.640 that they care deeply about. 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.640 Let's say I'm part of the audience and I subscribe. 0:16:22.040 --> 0:16:25.040 You know, when you're fundraising, their people say I pledge 0:16:25.040 --> 0:16:28.560 one hundred dollars and then frequently they don't come through. 0:16:29.800 --> 0:16:33.200 So if I say I subscribe, what are the mechanics 0:16:33.200 --> 0:16:34.320 of collecting the money? 0:16:34.800 --> 0:16:36.680 We take care of all that. When you pay you, 0:16:36.880 --> 0:16:38.840 we get it right. You have a we have a 0:16:38.840 --> 0:16:41.800 credit card with you, we charge it. It's charged right away. 0:16:42.120 --> 0:16:46.480 Okay, So I'm there and I click subscribe, My credit 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:47.480 card gets charged. 0:16:47.480 --> 0:16:50.120 Their credit card gets charged, and just like anything, there's 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:53.640 always challenges with some charge back because you're a credit card. 0:16:53.720 --> 0:16:55.200 But yes, your credit card gets charged. 0:16:55.600 --> 0:16:58.840 Okay. Let's say I am the streamer. When do I 0:16:58.920 --> 0:16:59.480 get paid? 0:17:01.040 --> 0:17:03.240 So right now, let me get the exact about we 0:17:03.360 --> 0:17:09.120 pay out every I'm forgetting if it's every fifteen days 0:17:09.160 --> 0:17:11.480 or every thirty days, I should know exactly. We've changed 0:17:11.480 --> 0:17:15.640 it recently, but basically think of it every I'm pretty 0:17:15.640 --> 0:17:18.760 sure it's every fifteen days, maybe every thirty days. That 0:17:18.800 --> 0:17:21.720 we basically on cycle payout. Right, we have a we 0:17:21.920 --> 0:17:25.640 have a cycle payout, and that we do need some 0:17:25.760 --> 0:17:28.440 buffer in terms of charge backs and other things, because 0:17:28.480 --> 0:17:31.800 once we pay you, we don't pull anything back, so 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:34.080 you know it's not too long. 0:17:34.560 --> 0:17:38.000 So let me understand, I have no AD and I'm 0:17:38.040 --> 0:17:41.600 a streamer. People are subscribing. I get one hundred cents 0:17:41.600 --> 0:17:42.480 on the dollar to me. 0:17:43.200 --> 0:17:44.920 No, that's a REP share. It's a rep share. 0:17:45.359 --> 0:17:46.600 So what is the REV share? 0:17:47.040 --> 0:17:50.439 The rev share? It depends upon. We have different levels. Okay, 0:17:50.480 --> 0:17:54.439 for an average for you know, a regular smaller streamer, 0:17:54.440 --> 0:17:58.520 it's fifty to fifty. We have what's called our our 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:03.080 Plus program for most of our established streamers, they get 0:18:03.119 --> 0:18:05.440 either sixty forty or seventy thirty, and most of them 0:18:05.440 --> 0:18:08.440 get seventy thirty. Okay, seventy percent of the revenue goes 0:18:08.480 --> 0:18:12.119 to them. And the way we kind of the reason 0:18:12.119 --> 0:18:14.520 we have the different levels, as we thought about it, 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:20.520 is for those people we're streaming is a core part 0:18:20.640 --> 0:18:23.960 of how they fund their life. Okay, this is how 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:26.199 they pay their bills. We tried to make it so 0:18:26.240 --> 0:18:28.480 that we could get most of them to seventy thirty. 0:18:28.760 --> 0:18:31.200 So that's why we have these thresholds based upon the 0:18:31.280 --> 0:18:33.680 number of subscribers you have, and we kind of set 0:18:33.680 --> 0:18:38.280 it so that those people that are in general depending 0:18:38.359 --> 0:18:41.000 upon this for their livelihood, and whereas there are a 0:18:41.000 --> 0:18:43.400 lot of people that do it pick myself for example. 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:45.720 They do it out of passion and they may get 0:18:45.760 --> 0:18:48.959 some additional money, but you know, then they'll be at 0:18:48.960 --> 0:18:49.600 fifty to fifty. 0:18:50.800 --> 0:18:55.280 Let's just say I'm a household name musician and I 0:18:55.359 --> 0:18:58.520 have a lot of subscribers. I'm not living on the 0:18:58.520 --> 0:19:01.480 money I'm making from Twitch, but am I going to 0:19:01.560 --> 0:19:03.479 get fifty to fifty or seventy thirty? 0:19:04.240 --> 0:19:06.040 You don't have to, meaning if you have other stuff, 0:19:06.080 --> 0:19:08.879 as long as you have a certain amount of subscriptions 0:19:08.880 --> 0:19:10.280 to you, it'd end up getting seventy thirty. 0:19:11.040 --> 0:19:14.359 So really it's got less to do with whether the 0:19:14.440 --> 0:19:16.680 person is living solely on Twitch money. 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:20.159 No, no, no, it's all about we have objective thresholds 0:19:20.200 --> 0:19:22.760 about how many we have subscriber points. I won't go 0:19:22.800 --> 0:19:25.800 into the details right because it's very inside baseball, but 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:28.720 it's basically how many subscribers you have. It's a little 0:19:28.800 --> 0:19:30.760 more complicated because of our tears, but it's how many 0:19:30.800 --> 0:19:35.040 subscribers you have that determines it, and it doesn't matter. 0:19:35.119 --> 0:19:39.720 We just set the threshold to try and approximate. Here's 0:19:39.760 --> 0:19:43.320 a threshold where if like, if this was your only 0:19:43.400 --> 0:19:45.959 source of income it is, you know, you would be 0:19:46.320 --> 0:19:54.160 depending upon this. But that's just how we set the threshold. 0:19:57.040 --> 0:20:01.160 Okay, we know, mister beast in other clouds forms, what 0:20:01.240 --> 0:20:04.040 is the most anybody is making from Twitch? 0:20:04.640 --> 0:20:09.760 Ah? So let me This is what I'll talk about 0:20:09.800 --> 0:20:12.080 for a second because it's important as you think about 0:20:12.080 --> 0:20:15.399 our bigger streamers, and this is true in general in 0:20:15.440 --> 0:20:19.000 the influencer marketplace. There is how much money they're making 0:20:19.040 --> 0:20:21.920 from Twitch, but then how much money they're making off 0:20:21.920 --> 0:20:25.840 of Twitch through direct sponsorship deals. And as you grow 0:20:26.560 --> 0:20:29.359 basically when you first start out, you primarily make your 0:20:29.359 --> 0:20:33.320 money from subscriptions. Okay, I've talked about. Then as you 0:20:33.359 --> 0:20:36.080 get bigger, you also get ads because we have ads 0:20:36.080 --> 0:20:38.400 as an important partner. As you get bigger, ads becomes 0:20:38.640 --> 0:20:40.639 a more important part of your revenue stream. 0:20:40.800 --> 0:20:44.840 Wait wait, time time out. These are the ads that Twitch. 0:20:44.600 --> 0:20:46.840 Provides, Yes, that Twitch provides I know, and I'm going 0:20:46.920 --> 0:20:49.359 to get so Twitch will run ads, right, So you 0:20:49.440 --> 0:20:53.200 have your subscriptions, okay, then you have ads that we 0:20:53.280 --> 0:20:57.320 run on the channel Okay that are also a revshare. 0:20:57.000 --> 0:20:59.040 Okay, and what is the revshare on that? 0:20:59.119 --> 0:21:02.000 The same is fifty five to forty five to you, 0:21:02.040 --> 0:21:05.359 forty five to us okay. And then you have any 0:21:05.359 --> 0:21:10.400 direct sponsorship money that you bring in okay, Okay, Meaning 0:21:10.440 --> 0:21:14.560 a creator can get sponsored directly from a brand to 0:21:14.640 --> 0:21:17.800 do something or twitch or to post on other social 0:21:17.840 --> 0:21:19.760 media as part of their Twitch following because they have 0:21:19.800 --> 0:21:23.600 an audience. Okay. As you get bigger, it may be 0:21:23.720 --> 0:21:27.119 that fifty percent of your revenue comes off Twitch. You're 0:21:27.160 --> 0:21:29.880 still getting it because of Twitch and your Twitch following, 0:21:30.800 --> 0:21:33.680 but fifty percent of your revenue doesn't come through Twitch, 0:21:33.680 --> 0:21:37.159 and we don't get any cut of that, okay. So 0:21:37.280 --> 0:21:40.040 that is quite common. And you know, if you're creating 0:21:40.080 --> 0:21:43.520 content on Instagram, often all of your revenue comes from 0:21:43.560 --> 0:21:47.000 off Instagram. You get almost nothing from Instagram, right And 0:21:47.119 --> 0:21:50.560 same thing with TikTok So how much does? I don't 0:21:50.560 --> 0:21:53.639 want to quote any numbers because it's like twitch streamers 0:21:53.720 --> 0:21:57.480 makes in the top. Twitch streamers makes in the millions 0:21:57.480 --> 0:21:59.920 and millions of dollars, right, and so I don't want 0:21:59.920 --> 0:22:01.800 to say any numbers, especially. 0:22:01.400 --> 0:22:05.600 Where we'll be very specific. Are there people making seven 0:22:05.720 --> 0:22:09.840 figures solely from twitch? I'm sure they're making sponsorship money 0:22:10.040 --> 0:22:10.760 in addition to. 0:22:10.800 --> 0:22:13.159 People making seven figures solely from Twitch. 0:22:13.640 --> 0:22:20.359 Yes, okay, conventional YouTube influencers where it starts, they've migrated 0:22:20.359 --> 0:22:27.280 to other platforms. A there is a real focus on frequency. 0:22:27.840 --> 0:22:32.920 Unless you're posting at a certain level, you can't gain traction. 0:22:33.480 --> 0:22:35.600 And then a lot of them are so busy posting 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:39.480 that they burn out. Jena Marbles, all these original influencers, 0:22:40.119 --> 0:22:42.920 they're doing it and then they can't do it anywhere emotion. 0:22:45.800 --> 0:22:47.600 So let's see. First of all, let me describe for 0:22:47.680 --> 0:22:49.920 a second how twitch works to begin with, and then 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:55.560 what it takes to sustain. Okay, the foundation of Twitch 0:22:55.760 --> 0:22:58.360 is the community you build and the fact that there 0:22:58.400 --> 0:23:02.480 is a connection between people watching you and it is 0:23:02.520 --> 0:23:04.879 the fact to get a sense of community. It takes 0:23:04.880 --> 0:23:08.240 a certain amount of streaming for those people to build 0:23:08.320 --> 0:23:11.640 that what I call a horizontal connection. For those people listening, 0:23:11.640 --> 0:23:13.679 they won't see my hands going together, but I call 0:23:13.760 --> 0:23:18.159 it a horizontal because you recognize each other in chat. Okay, 0:23:18.280 --> 0:23:21.480 I'm going to do a quick divergence here to tell you, 0:23:21.480 --> 0:23:23.960 you know, a story about that that'll kind of put 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:26.840 it to life. I was actually in the Middle East 0:23:26.840 --> 0:23:30.240 and I talked. I was talking to a streamer from 0:23:32.080 --> 0:23:35.600 the Arabic World and she was talking about how she 0:23:35.640 --> 0:23:38.840 went on stream and one of her audience members wasn't 0:23:38.880 --> 0:23:41.560 there and she is used to that audience member being 0:23:41.600 --> 0:23:44.600 there regular She's like, what's happening and she asked everyone 0:23:44.640 --> 0:23:46.359 in chat, and everyone in Chat was like, yeah, I 0:23:46.359 --> 0:23:47.919 haven't seen him either. I haven't seen her on this 0:23:47.960 --> 0:23:50.560 other channel, because they all knew who this person was. 0:23:51.040 --> 0:23:54.280 So she started trying to figure out if he was okay, okay, 0:23:54.320 --> 0:23:56.480 and did whatever information and she couldn't figure out. He 0:23:56.520 --> 0:23:58.120 came back a week later and she was like, Oh, 0:23:58.119 --> 0:24:00.159 we're so glad you're here. We're worried. In all of 0:24:00.240 --> 0:24:02.760 Chat was saying this too, because all of Chat knew 0:24:02.760 --> 0:24:05.680 who this person was and was connected to this person. Right. 0:24:06.080 --> 0:24:11.440 It turns out he did have a modestly serious injury. Okay. 0:24:11.800 --> 0:24:14.679 He was really touched that they noticed that he was gone. 0:24:15.359 --> 0:24:18.280 The interesting part of the story is his immediate family, 0:24:18.320 --> 0:24:21.800 who he doesn't live with, did not know he was 0:24:21.840 --> 0:24:25.439 ever sick because he doesn't talk to them regularly, so 0:24:25.720 --> 0:24:28.639 they didn't notice that he was like in the hospital. 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.480 He didn't contact them. They didn't notice, but his Twitch 0:24:31.520 --> 0:24:34.800 community knew the day that something happened on him. And 0:24:34.840 --> 0:24:38.040 it wasn't just the streamers of the community. So countless 0:24:38.080 --> 0:24:41.280 stories I've heard of people meeting their mate just by 0:24:41.359 --> 0:24:44.679 building the connections on Twitch. So I say that because 0:24:44.720 --> 0:24:47.240 an important part of Twitch for the viewer isn't just 0:24:47.640 --> 0:24:51.639 watching the content. It's feeling connected to the other people 0:24:51.960 --> 0:24:54.480 and talking to them and getting to know them. So 0:24:55.040 --> 0:24:57.960 going back to your question, when you get going, you 0:24:58.040 --> 0:25:02.480 have to stream on some regularity to form that, Bob. Okay, 0:25:03.280 --> 0:25:07.679 if you already have some notoriety, I often tell people, oh, 0:25:07.720 --> 0:25:10.840 if you stream two to three times a week, two 0:25:10.920 --> 0:25:14.560 to three hours a stream, you can build a sense 0:25:14.560 --> 0:25:17.760 of community. Now there are exceptions to that. I'll think 0:25:17.800 --> 0:25:20.359 myself as an example, Bob, you would be someone that 0:25:20.440 --> 0:25:22.680 might be an exception. I only stream once a week. 0:25:22.960 --> 0:25:25.760 But I'm notable in that I was CEO, and even 0:25:25.800 --> 0:25:27.639 though I only stream once a week, I still have 0:25:27.720 --> 0:25:30.160 that sense of community from the folks who watch them. 0:25:30.480 --> 0:25:35.000 Okay, when you stream, how do people know when you're 0:25:35.040 --> 0:25:35.800 gonna stream? 0:25:35.920 --> 0:25:41.600 Yeah, so I might post something on social media it says, oh, 0:25:41.640 --> 0:25:46.399 I'm going live. But in general, for most people that stream, 0:25:46.400 --> 0:25:49.959 I tell them maintain a schedule. Okay, say I'm going 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:54.119 to stream every Monday and Thursday from seven to ten. Okay, 0:25:54.200 --> 0:25:57.120 because you're going to find those members of your audience 0:25:57.119 --> 0:26:00.720 that have that that are just free in that time period. Okay. 0:26:00.720 --> 0:26:03.640 So usually it's good to have some schedule. You can 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:06.080 stream off schedule, but try to have some schedule to 0:26:06.080 --> 0:26:10.439 build that community. Okay. Twitch sends notifications out whenever you 0:26:10.480 --> 0:26:14.040 go live, So basically, once people are watching Twitch and 0:26:14.080 --> 0:26:18.639 they follow you, then whenever I go live, the folks 0:26:18.680 --> 0:26:21.000 that and I am not good at maintaining a schedule 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:24.479 as an example, Bob, because my schedule is very erratic, 0:26:24.760 --> 0:26:27.160 but they all get notifications as soon as I go live. 0:26:27.200 --> 0:26:29.400 It says dan is live, Dan is live, Dan is live, 0:26:29.560 --> 0:26:31.119 and so a lot of times they just start showing 0:26:31.160 --> 0:26:33.560 up because they get the notification that I'm live, and 0:26:33.600 --> 0:26:36.119 they're like, oh cool, I want to drop in. Okay. 0:26:36.160 --> 0:26:39.200 If I want to tell people in advance, then usually 0:26:39.400 --> 0:26:42.000 we do have ways within Twitch, but most people use 0:26:42.040 --> 0:26:45.200 social media to say go on live tomorrow at ten, 0:26:45.359 --> 0:26:48.560 because that's where people spend a lot of their time 0:26:48.760 --> 0:26:51.080 is on Instagram or TikTok and so they post something 0:26:51.080 --> 0:26:53.960 on there okay. 0:26:54.119 --> 0:26:59.120 Twitch provided ads are those of break in the stream 0:26:59.440 --> 0:27:02.040 or is it a bug that sits on the screen? 0:27:02.760 --> 0:27:04.520 How does that look like? Doesn't work? 0:27:05.560 --> 0:27:10.120 The answer is both Okay. Basically I would broadly characterize 0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:14.520 three types of ads. We do have pre roll media 0:27:14.560 --> 0:27:18.600 ads that might occur when someone shows up at a channel. Okay, 0:27:19.640 --> 0:27:23.880 most of the video ads will be a mid roll 0:27:24.200 --> 0:27:28.159 where the streamer marks they control. Every streamer controls what 0:27:28.240 --> 0:27:31.480 the AIRD load is on their channel. Okay, So they 0:27:31.480 --> 0:27:33.280 can run three minutes of ads, they can run six 0:27:33.320 --> 0:27:38.000 minutes of ads. They decide how many ads okay, they 0:27:38.040 --> 0:27:41.600 define when the breaks are okay. Now, it's important to 0:27:41.640 --> 0:27:45.400 note the subscribers aren't getting ads, So just because it's 0:27:45.400 --> 0:27:48.280 an AD break, it doesn't mean that the streamer goes away. 0:27:48.520 --> 0:27:50.840 Don't think if the guy gets up and leaves, usually 0:27:50.840 --> 0:27:53.280 he's still doing something, but he takes into account and 0:27:53.440 --> 0:27:58.040 AD break. And then we also have non interruptive ads okay, 0:27:58.040 --> 0:28:00.679 because obviously that's something we want to get more for 0:28:00.800 --> 0:28:03.959 the creators, it's better to minimize the interruptive ads. So 0:28:04.000 --> 0:28:06.439 we do have some placements that are non interrupted that 0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:08.040 you can see while you're watching the stream. 0:28:09.040 --> 0:28:15.679 Okay, going back to sponsorships, you know you have a 0:28:15.720 --> 0:28:20.560 lot of people in general influencers or hawking products and 0:28:20.600 --> 0:28:24.840 it undercuts their credibility. How would you advise someone who's 0:28:24.880 --> 0:28:28.320 doing that on Twitch, someone who has external sponsors. 0:28:28.760 --> 0:28:31.959 Yeah, what I often say is you want to make 0:28:32.000 --> 0:28:36.960 sure there's an authenticity to when you are doing a sponsorship. 0:28:38.280 --> 0:28:40.240 When you look at the amount of money that somebody 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:44.040 makes directly from their audience, which again is different. You know, 0:28:44.080 --> 0:28:47.880 if you look at the short form, people are making 0:28:47.960 --> 0:28:50.760 a lot of money directly from their audience. On Twitch, 0:28:50.840 --> 0:28:53.360 they are making a lot of money directly from their audience. 0:28:53.800 --> 0:28:57.360 So if you go on and show for a product 0:28:57.400 --> 0:29:00.200 you don't believe in to these people that are paying 0:29:00.240 --> 0:29:04.600 to support you in general, like, that's not a great idea, 0:29:05.080 --> 0:29:06.640 right if you don't believe in the other And so 0:29:07.160 --> 0:29:09.960 the magic that works, and this is what I often 0:29:10.000 --> 0:29:13.240 talk when I when I talk to brands is I 0:29:13.280 --> 0:29:16.840 talk about the fact that to three quarters of the 0:29:16.880 --> 0:29:19.280 money we make doesn't come from add It comes directly 0:29:19.360 --> 0:29:24.160 from viewers pockets. And that means those viewers are emotionally 0:29:24.200 --> 0:29:28.040 engaged with the content Okay. So it's actually because what 0:29:28.040 --> 0:29:31.320 you're trying to do with an AD is create emotional transference, 0:29:31.400 --> 0:29:34.760 right that I have a positive feeling towards you. You 0:29:34.840 --> 0:29:37.360 have an association with this brand. So now I have 0:29:37.400 --> 0:29:41.640 a positive association with filling the Brank brand. Okay. And 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:45.840 so I often tell streamers, I say, look, you should 0:29:45.840 --> 0:29:50.000 make sure that you like to some degree believe in 0:29:50.040 --> 0:29:54.520 this brand. And it's not just you, you know, being 0:29:54.560 --> 0:29:58.760 a shrill show for whatever they say, because you know 0:29:59.000 --> 0:30:00.480 that matters to your community. 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:08.040 Okay, I follow X and do I have the same 0:30:08.200 --> 0:30:11.960 ability to chat as someone who subscribes? 0:30:14.040 --> 0:30:16.800 Absolutely? You know. Now, well let me add it on. 0:30:16.920 --> 0:30:21.760 Let me add one caveat the streamer can control who 0:30:21.800 --> 0:30:25.440 can chat in their chat. So the streamer has a 0:30:25.480 --> 0:30:29.120 lot of control. Okay. So for example, they can put 0:30:29.160 --> 0:30:31.880 their chat in subscribe or only chat if they so choose. 0:30:32.400 --> 0:30:34.720 So if they put their chat in subscribe or only chat, 0:30:34.720 --> 0:30:37.560 and sometimes a larger streamer might do that or might 0:30:37.640 --> 0:30:40.640 do that for a certain portion of his stream to 0:30:40.760 --> 0:30:44.760 reward those people that are subscribers. Okay, you can put 0:30:44.760 --> 0:30:47.880 it and follower only chat. Okay, sometimes you might do 0:30:48.000 --> 0:30:50.400 that to avoid just a lot of noise from the 0:30:50.400 --> 0:30:55.000 people that don't. Okay, So the creator decides who can 0:30:55.040 --> 0:30:59.280 participate in chat. I'd say most creators don't restrict it 0:30:59.320 --> 0:31:02.120 to subscribe only chat as a general rule. I think 0:31:02.160 --> 0:31:05.400 that's more the exception that somebody will limit it to 0:31:05.520 --> 0:31:06.720 subscribeer only chat. 0:31:07.240 --> 0:31:10.400 And to what degree is it important for the streamer 0:31:10.880 --> 0:31:14.520 to chat with the audience as opposed to the audience 0:31:14.640 --> 0:31:15.880 chatting amongst itself. 0:31:16.400 --> 0:31:19.920 Yeah, so I'm gonna say it doesn't matter for the 0:31:19.960 --> 0:31:23.440 streamer to type into chat, right, okay, because they're talking. 0:31:23.480 --> 0:31:26.240 The real question is to what degree is it important 0:31:26.280 --> 0:31:31.200 for the streamer to interact with chat? Okay? And in general? Now, 0:31:31.240 --> 0:31:33.600 sometimes you may be doing streams or you don't do it, 0:31:33.640 --> 0:31:37.240 and that's okay, But in general it's pretty important, okay, 0:31:37.440 --> 0:31:41.680 because the thing that like, everyone wants to be heard, okay, 0:31:42.080 --> 0:31:45.320 And when I'm watching and you just say hey Kevin 0:31:45.400 --> 0:31:48.160 verse seven, you know, yeah, let me answer your question 0:31:48.440 --> 0:31:51.040 or thanks for being here. Like when I start streaming, 0:31:51.480 --> 0:31:53.440 the first thing I do is for the first people 0:31:53.440 --> 0:31:55.120 that show up in chat, because I turn it on 0:31:55.320 --> 0:31:57.560 and then people say, hey Dan, what's happening? Hey, I 0:31:57.600 --> 0:32:00.000 go yo, Kevin verse seven, glad to see you again, 0:32:00.080 --> 0:32:03.040 and oh, Vix and Bena, glad you're here. Oh. And 0:32:03.080 --> 0:32:06.480 I'm sitting there calling out all these people, right, and 0:32:06.520 --> 0:32:09.560 so that is part of building the sense of belonging 0:32:10.040 --> 0:32:13.720 because I'm showing that I hear them. Okay, and so 0:32:14.000 --> 0:32:18.280 most of our streamers spend some amount of time paying 0:32:18.320 --> 0:32:20.280 attention to chatt to show that they care. 0:32:21.480 --> 0:32:25.760 Okay, this goes with the territory, and I have to 0:32:25.840 --> 0:32:30.760 ask these people become somewhat public, to what degree are 0:32:30.760 --> 0:32:35.800 their issues of stalking and other infringing upon someone's privacy 0:32:35.960 --> 0:32:36.480 or space. 0:32:37.360 --> 0:32:42.360 Yeah, so everyone needs you know, the reality is in 0:32:42.360 --> 0:32:46.320 today's world, notable people need to be cognizant of this. 0:32:46.480 --> 0:32:50.160 We have very strict rules around boxing and boxing off 0:32:50.240 --> 0:32:52.880 platform as well as on platform. So in fact, if 0:32:52.920 --> 0:32:56.120 ever someone is doing that which is sharing private information, 0:32:56.400 --> 0:32:59.080 we take that seriously. We ban them from Twitch. So 0:32:59.200 --> 0:33:02.880 in general, that's not something that that happens a lot. 0:33:03.200 --> 0:33:05.719 But of course as you get bigger, and it varies 0:33:05.760 --> 0:33:09.200 depending upon the creator, you have to be very cognizant 0:33:09.240 --> 0:33:12.560 because you're becoming a public figure in today's world. Okay, 0:33:13.920 --> 0:33:16.200 one of the factors, there's one issue about what i'll 0:33:16.240 --> 0:33:19.280 call your personal safety, okay, in terms of where you're at, 0:33:19.320 --> 0:33:21.840 and as you get bigger, you have to be cognizant 0:33:21.840 --> 0:33:25.200 of that. Which is unfortunate that that's the case, right, 0:33:25.200 --> 0:33:28.560 but that is the world we live in. One thing 0:33:28.560 --> 0:33:33.040 that's really interesting about when you're on Twitch, though, is 0:33:33.800 --> 0:33:36.760 you can control and you can ban people from your chat. 0:33:37.760 --> 0:33:40.520 So one of the problems in today's social media world 0:33:41.040 --> 0:33:44.120 is you post something and you have all the trolls 0:33:44.160 --> 0:33:47.080 that are there responding, whether it's on X or Instagram 0:33:47.120 --> 0:33:49.280 and commenting or whatever. Right, So if you say something 0:33:49.320 --> 0:33:51.880 on X, you have all these people that will attack you. 0:33:52.040 --> 0:33:54.440 And if there's anyone you're a fan of, any musician 0:33:54.480 --> 0:33:56.400 you love they post something, they're going to be people 0:33:56.440 --> 0:33:58.720 that are going to be, oh, I can't believe you 0:33:58.720 --> 0:34:01.880 did this, you sold out or whatever. Right, And when 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:03.840 you read all that stuff, it just makes you feel 0:34:03.880 --> 0:34:07.040 like shit, right because you know, let's say you're a 0:34:07.120 --> 0:34:09.359 musician and you're creating stuff and then these people are 0:34:09.360 --> 0:34:14.200 attacking you. Okay, on Twitch, if somebody attacks you in chat, 0:34:15.000 --> 0:34:17.359 we have moderators, we have lots of tools you ban them, 0:34:17.560 --> 0:34:20.360 and what ends up happening it's kind of different in 0:34:20.440 --> 0:34:23.440 other social media and other social media, sometimes fifty percent 0:34:23.440 --> 0:34:28.240 in your comments can be trolls. On Twitch, people tend 0:34:28.239 --> 0:34:30.040 not to just sit there if they don't like you. 0:34:30.080 --> 0:34:33.279 They don't sit there and watch you for two hours. Right, 0:34:33.440 --> 0:34:35.879 They're not going to do that. They might come in 0:34:35.920 --> 0:34:38.359 and say something then you ban them. So the reality is, 0:34:38.400 --> 0:34:40.920 in terms of the abuse you get in chat, I'm 0:34:40.920 --> 0:34:42.919 not saying it's not an issue. It's something we think about. 0:34:43.239 --> 0:34:47.800 It tends to be far less than in other social 0:34:47.840 --> 0:34:52.400 media platforms because you can control who can be engaged 0:34:52.440 --> 0:34:53.080 in your chat. 0:34:53.800 --> 0:34:57.160 Okay, do you block at the user level name or 0:34:57.160 --> 0:34:58.760 the IP address name. 0:34:59.680 --> 0:35:04.280 When somebody bans this account, Okay, it is the person 0:35:04.320 --> 0:35:06.799 who is getting banned. Now, we do a lot of 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:10.080 work to try and determine when people have duplicate accounts, 0:35:10.640 --> 0:35:13.600 and there are two types of banning. If you violate 0:35:13.600 --> 0:35:17.120 our community guidelines, we may ban you from Twitch. But 0:35:17.360 --> 0:35:20.120 you also can set different standards on your chat that 0:35:20.160 --> 0:35:23.799 are different than Twitches. Okay, so you can say this 0:35:23.960 --> 0:35:28.080 is family friendly. I don't want anyone cursing. Someone curses, 0:35:28.120 --> 0:35:31.480 you can ban them from your chat. Okay, you're banning 0:35:31.520 --> 0:35:34.799 that person. We have various different ways to determine when 0:35:34.800 --> 0:35:37.520 this person is associated with different accounts, and IP is 0:35:37.560 --> 0:35:41.319 one of them. Okay, But so we work to make 0:35:41.400 --> 0:35:45.759 sure that somebody can't do ban evasion. Of course, it's 0:35:45.840 --> 0:35:48.360 always a cat and mouse game because there's no perfect 0:35:48.400 --> 0:35:51.839 formula for that. But conceptually, what it is is we're 0:35:51.880 --> 0:35:53.680 banning the person, not the account. 0:35:54.440 --> 0:35:58.239 Okay. Other than video gaming, which is a world up 0:35:58.320 --> 0:36:02.480 to itself and Twitch really owns, can you name someone 0:36:02.520 --> 0:36:07.920 else who has primarily built their career, reputation, monetary reward 0:36:08.360 --> 0:36:09.080 via Twitch. 0:36:10.480 --> 0:36:14.920 Yeah, well, I mean I'll take our top streamer who, 0:36:14.960 --> 0:36:17.279 while he gains a little bit, that's not why he's known, 0:36:17.320 --> 0:36:21.520 Miss Kaisano. Okay, our top streamer who was on the 0:36:21.560 --> 0:36:26.280 cover of Time magazine for the Creator of the Year. Okay, 0:36:26.560 --> 0:36:31.600 He's primarily known for the antics that he does, if 0:36:31.640 --> 0:36:34.520 you will, for all the funny stuff that he does 0:36:35.080 --> 0:36:38.960 where he has people over you know, in his you know, 0:36:39.400 --> 0:36:43.640 in his you know house, just doing funny and goofy stuff. 0:36:43.680 --> 0:36:45.720 He has a great clip where he did a stream 0:36:45.760 --> 0:36:50.400 with Kevin Hart where they did a sleepover. Okay, but 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:54.359 I would start with with Kai, who's you know at 0:36:54.360 --> 0:36:57.759 the you know, at the top of the heap right now. 0:36:57.800 --> 0:37:01.920 On twitch, Okay, I'm a creator, you know these some 0:37:01.960 --> 0:37:09.080 of these terms influencer. There are multiple platforms, There's YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Twitch, 0:37:11.320 --> 0:37:15.080 What would you say, would you say be on all 0:37:15.160 --> 0:37:19.040 of them? Or really you should be on Twitch and 0:37:19.080 --> 0:37:20.400 dedicate your type of Twitch. 0:37:21.280 --> 0:37:24.360 So, first of all, as opposed to talking about platforms, 0:37:25.040 --> 0:37:28.440 I'm going to talk about content types and then get 0:37:28.480 --> 0:37:32.000 to platforms, okay, and broadly, I think now you should 0:37:32.040 --> 0:37:37.719 think of three types of content live. Okay. What I 0:37:37.800 --> 0:37:40.640 will call is I'm going to use the term long 0:37:40.760 --> 0:37:44.320 form BODVOD for video on demand, and I'm going to 0:37:44.480 --> 0:37:48.800 use the term short form VOD. Okay. Now, the reality 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:52.000 is the length of the VOD is a continuum, doesn't binorize. 0:37:52.200 --> 0:37:54.560 But in your mind, as we think short form BOD, 0:37:55.040 --> 0:37:59.080 be thinking of thirty seconds to one to two minutes, 0:37:59.120 --> 0:38:02.360 in other words, based the type of experience that YouTube, shorts, 0:38:02.400 --> 0:38:06.359 TikTok and Instagram reels is optimized for. So that's what 0:38:06.400 --> 0:38:09.479 I'm going to call short form. When I think long 0:38:09.560 --> 0:38:12.360 form for now, think of twenty minute videos on YouTube 0:38:12.719 --> 0:38:15.200 or longer. Okay, now, yes, I know there's a gap 0:38:15.200 --> 0:38:17.120 between two to three minutes and twenty minutes. You have 0:38:17.160 --> 0:38:22.680 ten minutes, but just and then live. Okay. So the 0:38:22.760 --> 0:38:27.040 first thing you have to ask, the question is your 0:38:27.080 --> 0:38:29.920 creative expression? What are you trying to create? What are 0:38:29.960 --> 0:38:35.120 you trying to communicate? Okay? And that sometimes dictates the artifact. Okay. 0:38:35.640 --> 0:38:40.640 Short form content is the best content for discovery. The 0:38:40.719 --> 0:38:43.319 reason for that is someone can watch a lot and 0:38:43.360 --> 0:38:46.680 it's very easy for something to go viral. Okay. So 0:38:47.160 --> 0:38:53.000 to use a you know, comparison, someone on TikTok might 0:38:53.080 --> 0:38:56.680 see two thousand creators in a week, okay with this star, 0:38:56.760 --> 0:39:00.439 or three thousand or four thousand someone on twitch watch 0:39:00.480 --> 0:39:05.160 five to ten. I believe someone on YouTube is probably 0:39:05.200 --> 0:39:09.440 in the middle, three hundred or four hundred. Okay. I 0:39:09.520 --> 0:39:11.680 think one thing, and especially later on we might start 0:39:11.680 --> 0:39:15.680 talking about music. There's this thing about emotional attachment between 0:39:15.719 --> 0:39:19.840 the creator, okay, and short form is a great way 0:39:19.880 --> 0:39:23.520 to get discovered, but it isn't a great way to 0:39:23.640 --> 0:39:28.640 form an emotional attachment between the artist, the creator and 0:39:28.719 --> 0:39:32.400 the viewer because you're just one of two to three thousand. Okay. 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.640 If somebody stops creating content, on TikTok you don't even 0:39:36.719 --> 0:39:40.440 know it right because your attachment is to the platform. 0:39:40.800 --> 0:39:44.120 If someone stops streaming on Twitch, then I know it 0:39:44.280 --> 0:39:46.799 within days that they're not streaming right now. That's because 0:39:46.840 --> 0:39:49.600 I'm more emotionally attached. So the way I describe it 0:39:49.680 --> 0:39:53.640 is personally, I think if you want to be discovered, 0:39:53.719 --> 0:39:56.239 that's what you're trying to do. I think short form 0:39:56.239 --> 0:40:00.439 content is the best channel for discovery. Okay, you want 0:40:00.440 --> 0:40:03.479 to build deep connection with your audience, I think live 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:06.360 is the best way to do that, and it's also 0:40:06.400 --> 0:40:10.960 the best way to turn affinity and affection into dollars directly, 0:40:11.239 --> 0:40:14.760 where they're supporting you directly. Okay. Now, the one caveat 0:40:14.800 --> 0:40:20.600 I will say is live isn't for everyone. Some people 0:40:20.640 --> 0:40:24.560 aren't comfortable live. Some people aren't comfortable being exposed to, 0:40:25.840 --> 0:40:29.480 you know, all the sundrys and everything that they you know, 0:40:30.200 --> 0:40:33.279 might deal with. They're better And that's particularly true from 0:40:33.280 --> 0:40:35.799 a musician's perspective the way I think of it. And 0:40:36.000 --> 0:40:40.680 you know, some musicians finally craft their words and you 0:40:40.719 --> 0:40:43.200 can see them on stage. There's sometimes a little uncomfortable 0:40:43.239 --> 0:40:45.440 in stage because they have this artifact, which is the 0:40:45.520 --> 0:40:48.719 song which is a finely crafted song and that's what 0:40:48.760 --> 0:40:52.160 they're presenting, and they don't want to be answering questions 0:40:52.160 --> 0:40:54.920 and improvising and doing all sorts of stuff. So for 0:40:55.080 --> 0:40:59.200 some people, Live isn't the right thing for them. Okay, 0:41:00.200 --> 0:41:02.360 to enjoy live is you're going to do it because 0:41:02.400 --> 0:41:04.479 it's gonna take time. So the way I would say 0:41:04.480 --> 0:41:08.239 it is everyone as they're thinking about discovery should be 0:41:08.239 --> 0:41:12.080 thinking about using the short form content platforms if you're 0:41:12.080 --> 0:41:15.320 looking for discovery, because it's just the best for discovery, 0:41:15.360 --> 0:41:17.839 that's just the nature of it. Then as you think 0:41:17.840 --> 0:41:20.480 about building a stronger connection, I think that's when you 0:41:20.480 --> 0:41:22.359 want to think about longer form, and I think Live 0:41:22.480 --> 0:41:25.160 is a great form of longer form. I also think 0:41:25.360 --> 0:41:35.319 YouTube can be useful for longer form. 0:41:35.440 --> 0:41:38.760 What about nudity slash pornography? 0:41:38.920 --> 0:41:43.200 Yeah, so we don't allow nudity and pornographa on Twitch. 0:41:43.280 --> 0:41:46.719 So that's pretty straightforward not on Twitch, So I won't 0:41:46.760 --> 0:41:50.560 hypothesize if that's what your product is, which platforms to use. 0:41:51.080 --> 0:41:53.800 So we don't allow nudity and pronoraphy itch, we decided 0:41:53.800 --> 0:41:56.040 that's not appropriate for our platform. 0:41:55.600 --> 0:41:57.640 As a practical matter. How do you believe that. 0:41:58.480 --> 0:42:01.960 Oh, it's fairly. We have policies, we have automated techniques 0:42:02.719 --> 0:42:05.960 that detected, but then we also have user reporting in 0:42:05.960 --> 0:42:08.840 case the automated techniques don't work. But in general the 0:42:08.880 --> 0:42:12.239 automated techniques worked pretty well. But we also have a 0:42:12.280 --> 0:42:15.080 fairly rapid where we have a bunch of operators, we 0:42:15.160 --> 0:42:17.399 have useder reporting and within a matter of minutes, if 0:42:17.400 --> 0:42:20.359 something is in violation of our community guidelines, then we're 0:42:20.400 --> 0:42:21.520 able to act and take it down. 0:42:22.000 --> 0:42:25.400 Okay, pulling the lens back in terms of number of 0:42:25.560 --> 0:42:30.439 users in hours. Watch if we graph it, what's going 0:42:30.480 --> 0:42:31.640 on with Twitch. 0:42:33.200 --> 0:42:38.240 Meaning over time? Yes, okay, over time. What you'll see 0:42:38.360 --> 0:42:42.640 is there have been these certain exogatius events that drove 0:42:42.719 --> 0:42:47.560 a lot of growth. Okay, so the first well, you 0:42:47.600 --> 0:42:49.880 could go back and StarCraft was a big thing that 0:42:49.960 --> 0:42:56.560 first drove Twitch. But then as you fast forward you 0:42:56.600 --> 0:42:59.160 get to when Fortnite came out and Twitch had this 0:42:59.360 --> 0:43:03.640 huge resear I'll growth during Fortnite praize. Okay. Part of 0:43:03.640 --> 0:43:05.200 that is because a lot of the folks that were 0:43:05.239 --> 0:43:08.279 creating Fortnite content started streaming, and so there was this 0:43:08.440 --> 0:43:13.160 natural feedback cycle with Fortnite COVID caused another big bump 0:43:13.800 --> 0:43:17.920 okay after COVID then, But like many platforms, because basically 0:43:17.960 --> 0:43:19.920 there are a lot of people at home looking for community, 0:43:19.920 --> 0:43:22.600 looking for connection in Twitch was a great platform and 0:43:22.640 --> 0:43:24.719 also a lot of creators, a lot of musicians to 0:43:24.960 --> 0:43:26.520 come up to me and say, wow, Twitch was a 0:43:26.520 --> 0:43:28.880 lifesaver for me, Like I turned to Twitch because I 0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:33.279 couldn't do shows. Okay. As COVID passed, there was a 0:43:34.120 --> 0:43:36.799 softening of the market, which was this kind of like 0:43:36.880 --> 0:43:42.480 many platforms, if you look over the last year or so, overall, 0:43:42.520 --> 0:43:45.000 it's been you know what, I'll just call you know, 0:43:45.400 --> 0:43:50.640 roughly flat. Okay. Now, I think what has been happening, 0:43:50.719 --> 0:43:56.040 interestingly is Twitch streamers actually have been having a bigger 0:43:56.080 --> 0:43:59.439 impact than ever in terms of their reach and their 0:43:59.440 --> 0:44:03.719 impact on a society. What's happening is there's a more 0:44:04.040 --> 0:44:08.200 seismic shift towards more short form content. Okay. And so 0:44:08.280 --> 0:44:10.399 if I had a metric, which I don't have, by 0:44:10.440 --> 0:44:14.439 the way of viewership of Twitch content on third party 0:44:14.520 --> 0:44:17.919 social media platforms, I'm quite confident it's been up into 0:44:17.960 --> 0:44:20.839 the right the last two years that the impact that 0:44:20.880 --> 0:44:24.400 Twitch creators are having on culture is larger than ever. Okay. 0:44:25.760 --> 0:44:28.440 The end result, by the way, this matters to our creators. 0:44:28.440 --> 0:44:30.760 A big part that's important for Twitch as a business 0:44:30.920 --> 0:44:33.839 is are we creating a platform where our creators can 0:44:33.920 --> 0:44:38.080 sustain a living and you know, reach their audience. And 0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:40.560 the answer is, our creators are bigger than ever in 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:46.120 terms of the audience they're we are reaching, and so 0:44:46.200 --> 0:44:48.000 I feel very good about that aspect of it. 0:44:48.640 --> 0:44:52.120 Okay, if we look at history, Second Life was going 0:44:52.200 --> 0:44:56.600 to be the future that didn't happen. Snapjack came along. 0:44:56.640 --> 0:44:59.520 Of course, it was initially disappearing videos. We all know 0:44:59.560 --> 0:45:02.680 you can ca after those, et cetera. But it ended 0:45:02.760 --> 0:45:11.920 up being a you've dominated service that did not grow. Okay, Instagram, 0:45:12.920 --> 0:45:16.080 which was purchased by Facebook is generating a lot of 0:45:16.120 --> 0:45:22.800 money as a result of ads, etc. Hey is Twitch 0:45:22.920 --> 0:45:26.600 really the land of young people? Or are old people 0:45:26.719 --> 0:45:28.080 watching Twitchell? 0:45:28.280 --> 0:45:34.400 Two old people are watching Twitch. Interestingly, Our largest demographic 0:45:34.400 --> 0:45:37.800 now is twenty five to thirty four. Okay, and I 0:45:37.840 --> 0:45:41.120 should have gotten I meant to check to see what 0:45:41.280 --> 0:45:43.840 percentage or our viewership is fifty plus and I forgot 0:45:43.880 --> 0:45:47.800 to do that. But it's surprising when I see what percentage. 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:51.880 I don't know if it's five to seven percent. In fact, actually, 0:45:51.880 --> 0:45:53.879 while we're sitting here, maybe I'll ping someone on that. 0:45:54.960 --> 0:45:57.520 So here's the way I would describe it. I don't 0:45:57.560 --> 0:46:00.360 think there are a ton of old people linked to 0:46:00.400 --> 0:46:06.160 twitch having never watched twitch. Okay, uh and now for 0:46:06.239 --> 0:46:08.719 the first time they're watching Twitch at sixty and the 0:46:09.280 --> 0:46:12.120 certainly that happens, but I wouldn't say that's the prime demographic. 0:46:12.440 --> 0:46:16.120 What's happening is people are aging up. Okay, so you 0:46:16.120 --> 0:46:18.879 know gaming has been around for a while now, so 0:46:19.480 --> 0:46:22.960 and as people as opposed to aging out of Twitch, 0:46:22.960 --> 0:46:25.080 you don't age out of Twitch. Is maybe the simplest 0:46:25.080 --> 0:46:27.720 way to say it. Okay, it may be with snap 0:46:27.760 --> 0:46:29.520 after you get to a certain age, you age out. 0:46:29.840 --> 0:46:32.759 With Twitch, what we see is, you know, we get 0:46:32.760 --> 0:46:34.920 a lot of usage from still people in their thirties 0:46:34.920 --> 0:46:37.719 and upper thirties and now they may have been using 0:46:37.760 --> 0:46:39.120 it for five or ten years. 0:46:40.000 --> 0:46:43.520 Let's use someone you may be familiar with and you 0:46:43.560 --> 0:46:46.680 can translate it to other people. But it's music. There's 0:46:46.719 --> 0:46:49.200 this guy, Rick Biado. You know who that is. 0:46:50.320 --> 0:46:52.680 I know the name. Let me check, well, Rick. 0:46:52.600 --> 0:46:56.640 Biato has a presence on you too. 0:46:56.719 --> 0:46:58.400 I recognize the face. Yeah, I know that, I know 0:46:58.480 --> 0:46:58.960 Rick Beata. 0:46:59.120 --> 0:47:03.040 Now it has It was first just him analyzing music 0:47:03.120 --> 0:47:07.440 saying thing. Now it is interviews with more famous musicians 0:47:07.560 --> 0:47:10.520 about their music how they're literally making. 0:47:10.239 --> 0:47:11.280 It yep, yep. 0:47:11.360 --> 0:47:19.759 He is making multiple seven figures from YouTube and his 0:47:20.200 --> 0:47:26.400 videos are not brief. Could he make as much money? 0:47:26.440 --> 0:47:28.719 What would be the advantage of going to twitch for 0:47:28.840 --> 0:47:29.720 someone like him? 0:47:30.080 --> 0:47:32.400 Yeah, here's the way. If I were talking to him, 0:47:32.440 --> 0:47:36.600 I'd say, don't think of it it's either or okay, 0:47:36.640 --> 0:47:39.920 think of it as d It's absolutely the case that 0:47:40.080 --> 0:47:43.040 VOD allows you to reach a broader audience because when 0:47:43.080 --> 0:47:45.560 you go live, not everybody can show up whenever you 0:47:45.600 --> 0:47:48.520 are live, okay, And so you're just going to reach 0:47:48.560 --> 0:47:55.799 more people when you create BOD content. The advantage of 0:47:55.840 --> 0:48:00.759 doing it live is if you like the idea including 0:48:01.040 --> 0:48:04.640 your audience and community while you're creating content. So I'll 0:48:04.760 --> 0:48:09.440 use as an example what we are doing right now, Bob. Okay, 0:48:10.280 --> 0:48:13.720 how would it be different if we were doing this live? Okay? 0:48:13.920 --> 0:48:15.799 The way it'd be different and'd be doing it live 0:48:15.920 --> 0:48:17.879 is chat would be going and you might be keeping 0:48:17.960 --> 0:48:20.840 an eye on chat, right and then at some point 0:48:21.239 --> 0:48:23.680 I will say something that you aren't an expert in. 0:48:23.760 --> 0:48:26.200 So when I say something, you don't know about something, 0:48:26.200 --> 0:48:29.279 and someone in chat would say something and you say, oh, Dan, 0:48:29.400 --> 0:48:31.480 chat said what about so and so? 0:48:32.480 --> 0:48:32.719 Right? 0:48:33.000 --> 0:48:35.239 And then I'd say, oh, what about so and so right? 0:48:35.480 --> 0:48:38.480 And so if you take someone like Rick, okay, if 0:48:38.520 --> 0:48:40.360 there and by the way, again, live may not be 0:48:40.400 --> 0:48:44.320 for everyone, but Rick is a perfect example. Okay. Lots 0:48:44.320 --> 0:48:51.000 of his audience has lots of opinions okay about whatever artists, 0:48:51.000 --> 0:48:52.719 and they have passionate about their artists, and they have 0:48:52.800 --> 0:48:56.360 questions for the artists, and they have ideas okay, and 0:48:56.800 --> 0:49:00.759 views on music that they want to feel part of it. Right. 0:49:01.160 --> 0:49:03.960 If I were Rick, I would think about saying, Okay, 0:49:04.040 --> 0:49:07.360 I'm going to do these these recordings. I'm going to 0:49:07.440 --> 0:49:09.799 do them live. I'm gonna do you know how we 0:49:09.840 --> 0:49:13.600 said you can do subscriber only chat. If I was Rick, 0:49:13.640 --> 0:49:16.480 I'd probably do subscriber only chat because he's a bigger name, 0:49:17.000 --> 0:49:20.920 a little more prominent. Okay, So then he's gonna say, oh, 0:49:21.000 --> 0:49:23.439 you want to go ahead and chat during this, okay, 0:49:23.520 --> 0:49:26.680 and ask me questions and have me Okay, here's how 0:49:26.719 --> 0:49:30.280 you can do it, okay. There's also features where sometimes 0:49:30.280 --> 0:49:33.920 people say, oh, I can only I can make it 0:49:33.960 --> 0:49:36.359 so that anyone can chat, but I only look at 0:49:36.360 --> 0:49:39.240 the subscriber's chat, if you will, so me as a creator, 0:49:39.280 --> 0:49:41.400 so you can chat with each other, but I the creator, 0:49:41.480 --> 0:49:45.840 only see the subscriber chat, so the subscribers know. And 0:49:45.880 --> 0:49:49.520 then so in addition to the money he makes from YouTube, okay, 0:49:49.920 --> 0:49:55.080 now he's also making money from Twitch, which is you know, additive. 0:49:55.800 --> 0:49:59.280 And the biggest thing is he's getting a closer connection, 0:50:00.040 --> 0:50:02.560 which is fan base that in fact, there's a little 0:50:02.600 --> 0:50:06.520 more intimacy with those people that like him because they 0:50:06.520 --> 0:50:08.880 feel a little more connected with them. And if I 0:50:08.920 --> 0:50:10.680 were him, I would even say, okay, look and at 0:50:10.719 --> 0:50:14.960 the end of the end of what I am doing 0:50:16.200 --> 0:50:18.000 for the vod that I'm going to put out and 0:50:18.040 --> 0:50:21.440 distribute to all these people, I'm going to send fifteen minutes. 0:50:21.480 --> 0:50:24.680 Where so, for example, I recently started doing a podcast, 0:50:24.800 --> 0:50:27.680 a live podcast where basically I do it on stream. 0:50:27.960 --> 0:50:29.960 At the end of the podcast, I interview someone, then 0:50:30.000 --> 0:50:33.120 I turn it off the podcast and now I just 0:50:33.560 --> 0:50:36.520 talk with chat for a little while right about what 0:50:36.640 --> 0:50:39.160 we talked about, any issues and these are this is 0:50:39.160 --> 0:50:43.359 in a very off the cup fashion, Okay, and then 0:50:43.400 --> 0:50:47.040 that creates this connection with your fan base, right, and 0:50:47.080 --> 0:50:49.840 a lot of times it's a source of short form content. 0:50:50.160 --> 0:50:53.880 Okay, there are people once they gather fans, they have 0:50:53.880 --> 0:50:57.439 a fan base, they want to monetize that, live performances, etc. 0:50:58.239 --> 0:51:02.840 Forgetting that, if you have someone who is making seven 0:51:02.960 --> 0:51:07.279 figures from video only on YouTube, and I know we're 0:51:07.280 --> 0:51:11.880 talking completely in the abstract, they might be building community 0:51:11.960 --> 0:51:16.200 on Twitch, but can they make anywhere near that kind 0:51:16.239 --> 0:51:16.720 of money? 0:51:17.520 --> 0:51:20.799 Well, first of all, let's since it's not substitutional as 0:51:20.800 --> 0:51:23.080 opposed to saying can they make anywhere near that type? 0:51:23.280 --> 0:51:25.399 First of all, the answer is yes, they can make 0:51:25.440 --> 0:51:28.240 that near type of money. But the right the simple 0:51:28.239 --> 0:51:32.719 answer is yes, sympatically yes, Okay, But the real question is, 0:51:32.800 --> 0:51:35.960 let's assume they're making seven figures, can they make an 0:51:36.000 --> 0:51:41.440 additional fifty from Twitch? Well, in additional, if you if 0:51:41.480 --> 0:51:44.080 you got a fifty percent raise prop you're pretty excited. 0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:50.120 If it's not half again as much work, okay, so 0:51:50.120 --> 0:51:53.839 so absolutely. And then also the other factor is it 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:59.000 can create this loyalty in your fan base. I'm going 0:51:59.000 --> 0:52:02.279 to make an analogy to music that I'd love to 0:52:02.320 --> 0:52:06.360 go into it at some point with you. This this 0:52:06.480 --> 0:52:09.680 emotional connection between a creator and an artist, and of 0:52:09.719 --> 0:52:14.040 course a musician is a creator okay, and their audience Okay, 0:52:14.600 --> 0:52:18.400 And how much in music now the connection is a 0:52:18.440 --> 0:52:22.319 little more with the platform rather than the artist. And 0:52:22.360 --> 0:52:25.279 in part the interesting analogy is I think music has 0:52:25.320 --> 0:52:29.000 gone more towards short form content because the single on 0:52:29.120 --> 0:52:33.640 Spotify is basically short form content. The album was long 0:52:33.680 --> 0:52:37.280 form content. And I'm sure you love listening to albums, 0:52:37.880 --> 0:52:40.160 and the more I listen or even if you again, 0:52:40.160 --> 0:52:42.840 whether you listen to the physical album or the artifact, 0:52:43.920 --> 0:52:46.160 when you listen to a piece of work from a 0:52:46.200 --> 0:52:49.520 creator which is a long form content, you create a 0:52:49.560 --> 0:52:54.760 stronger emotional bond with that creator. And that's a huge 0:52:54.760 --> 0:52:56.440 part of music, and that's a huge part in the 0:52:56.480 --> 0:52:57.839 creator ecosystem as well. 0:52:58.120 --> 0:53:04.520 Okay, at this point in time, how many I'm gonna 0:53:04.560 --> 0:53:08.640 have a dividing line and people get pissed off of this. 0:53:09.160 --> 0:53:13.320 Their people who are cottage industry, Okay, they put songs 0:53:13.360 --> 0:53:17.880 on Spotify, they do a few house concers, God bless them, okay. 0:53:18.280 --> 0:53:21.560 And the other extreme, we have people who either have 0:53:21.680 --> 0:53:24.959 a I'll give three criteria. They could have a major 0:53:25.040 --> 0:53:28.400 labeled deal, they could be in the Spotify top fifty, 0:53:28.960 --> 0:53:32.120 and they could sell five thousand tickets in most markets 0:53:32.200 --> 0:53:36.080 forty markets. How many of those acts are on Twitch? 0:53:38.960 --> 0:53:42.480 This is i'd say, for those acts on Twitch, I 0:53:42.480 --> 0:53:46.799 can't give you an exact number, but I wouldn't say gobs. Okay, 0:53:46.800 --> 0:53:49.360 I wouldn't say gobs of those now in rap and 0:53:49.440 --> 0:53:53.839 hip hop, it's probably larger than any other music venue 0:53:53.840 --> 0:53:55.920 because in rap and hip hop, more and more folks 0:53:55.920 --> 0:53:59.120 have been saying, oh, I need to be using Twitch, okay. 0:53:59.239 --> 0:54:02.520 And so now streams all the time. Ti Dollar Sign 0:54:02.880 --> 0:54:05.960 streams regularly like they'll stream thirty hours a week. Actually 0:54:06.000 --> 0:54:10.120 Snoop Dogg streams regularly now too. But so in rap 0:54:10.120 --> 0:54:13.839 and hip hop, it's becoming more commonplace. Outside and rap 0:54:13.840 --> 0:54:16.359 and hip hop, I think most of them, I'd say, 0:54:16.520 --> 0:54:21.680 don't use Twitch as a primary channel as a musician, Okay. 0:54:21.880 --> 0:54:27.120 In the music business, we see these amazing numbers historically 0:54:27.760 --> 0:54:29.960 for concerts on Twitch. 0:54:31.080 --> 0:54:31.480 Massive. 0:54:31.560 --> 0:54:32.399 Tell us about that. 0:54:32.880 --> 0:54:34.879 Yeah, So the way I describe that is you get 0:54:34.880 --> 0:54:37.560 these massive numbers for concert. Amazon Music does a number, 0:54:39.800 --> 0:54:43.160 Bad Bunny did a massive concert on Amazon Music. Okay, 0:54:44.320 --> 0:54:47.760 and so that is absolutely a thing, right, big concert 0:54:47.800 --> 0:54:51.479 on Twitch, And there are lots of folks that Again 0:54:51.520 --> 0:54:53.560 Amazon Music is the most notable, but a lot of 0:54:54.080 --> 0:54:56.160 you know, folks that are putting on concerts use Twitch 0:54:56.200 --> 0:54:59.439 to reach a big audience. And of course that's something 0:54:59.520 --> 0:55:03.920 I'm I love, I'm excited about. I like as I 0:55:04.040 --> 0:55:06.279 talk to musicians as they think about what they're doing. 0:55:06.640 --> 0:55:09.560 I think of the one of the things that is 0:55:09.600 --> 0:55:17.200 evolving is just putting a concert on Twitch when you're live. 0:55:17.760 --> 0:55:22.000 It is nice, but it's not so it's certainly not 0:55:22.040 --> 0:55:25.399 as good as being at the physical event, and it's 0:55:25.440 --> 0:55:27.920 not so much better than watching the same thing on 0:55:28.040 --> 0:55:32.200 bod a day later on YouTube. Right, you have to 0:55:32.280 --> 0:55:35.919 create this experience of why does it matter being live? 0:55:35.960 --> 0:55:39.440 And it's not to criticize those things, okay, but I 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:42.280 don't think that is the way to think about live 0:55:42.480 --> 0:55:45.839 if you're a musician, Okay, as the prime In fact, 0:55:45.880 --> 0:55:52.200 that's what happened at during COVID. Of course you couldn't perform, 0:55:52.360 --> 0:55:55.000 and so there's a lot I'm gonna go live, right, 0:55:55.280 --> 0:55:57.880 And all it was doing was taking the same artifact 0:55:57.920 --> 0:56:01.760 that you create in a live concert and bringing to Twitch. Okay. 0:56:02.080 --> 0:56:06.200 And what is more interesting now is as you start 0:56:06.239 --> 0:56:11.960 thinking of adapting what you're creating for the for the 0:56:12.000 --> 0:56:15.799 live experience, and I think that is engaging with the 0:56:15.840 --> 0:56:19.319 audience more as opposed to just putting a concert up 0:56:19.320 --> 0:56:19.720 on Twitch. 0:56:20.120 --> 0:56:24.279 Okay. Twitch made investments in music, trying to grow its 0:56:24.400 --> 0:56:27.440 music footprint, and then is pulled back from that. Can 0:56:27.480 --> 0:56:29.080 you tell us about that experience? 0:56:29.600 --> 0:56:31.879 Yeah? In fact, that's at the time what they did 0:56:32.280 --> 0:56:38.399 was basically pay folks to often put their music on Twitch, right, 0:56:38.440 --> 0:56:40.440 if you will. The thing that I'm saying what they 0:56:40.440 --> 0:56:42.239 were doing was investing in that. 0:56:42.320 --> 0:56:45.920 Well wait, wait, so we're basically saying they your predecessor, 0:56:46.000 --> 0:56:48.600 not you. Who do you mean by they? 0:56:48.680 --> 0:56:50.840 Yeah? Yeah, they they We? I should say we, but 0:56:50.920 --> 0:56:52.560 it was I was not in charge. I was not 0:56:52.600 --> 0:56:54.680 the same at the time, but it's still we. I 0:56:54.719 --> 0:56:56.360 was still here at the time, so I should say we. 0:56:56.880 --> 0:57:00.279 That's fair. That was that was a mistake we and 0:57:00.320 --> 0:57:05.560 what we learned was that was not Sometimes what we 0:57:05.560 --> 0:57:07.920 were doing was saying, if you will, you have this 0:57:08.040 --> 0:57:10.920 idea of a loss leader, pay for something where you 0:57:10.960 --> 0:57:15.200 lose money. But that's okay. It's going to grow the service, okay, 0:57:15.880 --> 0:57:19.360 So we would pay, but it didn't end up growing 0:57:19.360 --> 0:57:22.400 the service because if you were coming just to watch 0:57:22.440 --> 0:57:26.439 this concert, that didn't mean you'd come back the next 0:57:26.520 --> 0:57:30.320 day for everything else, okay. And what we realized was 0:57:30.840 --> 0:57:33.840 we needed more organic growth than music and this has 0:57:33.920 --> 0:57:37.000 been this actually has been working. Again what I've been 0:57:37.000 --> 0:57:41.600 saying recently, there was a Rolling Stones article saying, you know, 0:57:42.200 --> 0:57:44.760 if you're looking to break into song and rap and 0:57:44.840 --> 0:57:47.960 hip hop, you're thinking about how to use Twitch, Okay, 0:57:48.320 --> 0:57:52.600 And that's because that's grown much more organically than us 0:57:52.680 --> 0:57:54.040 just going and recruiting people. 0:57:55.000 --> 0:57:59.160 You're talking to me, But to what degree are you 0:57:59.600 --> 0:58:04.200 or the company evangelizing amongst artists and record companies? 0:58:04.600 --> 0:58:06.640 Yeah, a big deal. So one reason I was excited 0:58:06.640 --> 0:58:10.480 to come on is we started We've had deals with 0:58:10.840 --> 0:58:13.360 all the major music labels now for a while and 0:58:13.400 --> 0:58:16.400 also the indies, although it's over the last two years 0:58:16.480 --> 0:58:18.360 year and a half that they've really been leaning in 0:58:18.400 --> 0:58:22.920 because they are starting to see the potential of using 0:58:22.960 --> 0:58:26.080 Twitch as part of what they were doing. And I 0:58:26.080 --> 0:58:30.040 think the biggest thing that they and we needed to realize. 0:58:30.960 --> 0:58:33.760 Initially they looked at Twitch because of course, the labels 0:58:33.800 --> 0:58:36.960 are all looking for discovery, and they look for Twitch 0:58:37.040 --> 0:58:40.200 for discovery. And the reality is short form is better 0:58:40.240 --> 0:58:45.000 for discovery, okay. And what they've realized is really Twitch 0:58:45.080 --> 0:58:49.480 is much better for maintaining your community and your audience 0:58:49.520 --> 0:58:52.800 once you build it. So the comparison, I'll make the 0:58:52.880 --> 0:58:57.760 old model used to be, write an album, record it, 0:58:58.960 --> 0:59:01.960 release the album on tour, and then disappear for a 0:59:02.000 --> 0:59:05.640 year and a half while you create your next album. Okay. 0:59:05.800 --> 0:59:07.720 In today's world, you can't disappear for a year and 0:59:07.760 --> 0:59:11.080 a half. Okay. You need to stay top of mind. 0:59:11.120 --> 0:59:13.840 That's why many people now are just constantly releasing songs. 0:59:13.880 --> 0:59:16.960 The album is an artifact, is dissipated because of the 0:59:17.040 --> 0:59:19.440 nature of these streaming services. Okay, because you have to 0:59:19.480 --> 0:59:21.720 stay top of mind. So how do you stay top 0:59:21.760 --> 0:59:23.880 of mind? Well, one thing is everyone's telling you to 0:59:23.880 --> 0:59:27.120 create short form content. If you're a musician, it's like, 0:59:27.160 --> 0:59:29.120 oh god, I don't want to create short form content. 0:59:29.160 --> 0:59:31.479 That's another thing I have to do. What I often 0:59:31.480 --> 0:59:34.400 tell him is go ahead and stream. Do something you 0:59:34.520 --> 0:59:39.800 enjoy doing. Kane Brown he gains when he streams because 0:59:39.800 --> 0:59:43.200 he likes to gain that's what he does when he streams. Okay, 0:59:43.760 --> 0:59:46.280 Bieber was streaming recently, spending a lot of time and 0:59:46.320 --> 0:59:48.960 he was playing basketball and doing all sorts of things. Okay. 0:59:50.000 --> 0:59:52.040 What I and as I said, a lot of musicians, 0:59:52.040 --> 0:59:54.600 Tee Paint has been streaming since twenty sixteen and he'll 0:59:54.640 --> 0:59:57.920 mix his next album on twitch. Okay. So what I 0:59:57.960 --> 1:00:02.160 say is find something you like doing, okay, And this 1:00:02.240 --> 1:00:05.479 is to engage your core audience. And if you're doing 1:00:05.520 --> 1:00:08.240 something you enjoy doing that connects you with your community, 1:00:08.640 --> 1:00:11.760 then from that you can create short form social media. 1:00:11.840 --> 1:00:14.040 So it's not just about what you do on Twitch. 1:00:14.600 --> 1:00:17.680 It's also about how whatever you do on Twitch can 1:00:17.720 --> 1:00:20.520 become short forms so you maintain stop of mind and 1:00:20.560 --> 1:00:23.800 you don't disappear for that year and a half, which 1:00:23.800 --> 1:00:26.360 you just can't do anymore. And the labels realize that's 1:00:26.400 --> 1:00:29.040 important for them for building an audience. So there's a 1:00:29.040 --> 1:00:31.440 lot more interest to what degree are re evangelizing. I'd 1:00:31.440 --> 1:00:33.800 say a fair amount. That's you know why I was 1:00:34.760 --> 1:00:37.920 down in LA when we met each other, because I 1:00:38.000 --> 1:00:41.080 was down talking to you know, labels and artists, and 1:00:41.480 --> 1:00:43.439 you know, I'm going to Nashville and April I'm gonna 1:00:43.440 --> 1:00:45.800 be talking to some folks and we others. We have 1:00:45.800 --> 1:00:48.920 a team that's designed to bring people to onboard them. 1:00:49.040 --> 1:00:53.040 So that way, if you are, if you are a influencer, creator, 1:00:53.160 --> 1:00:57.680 musician that already has some type of a following, we 1:00:57.760 --> 1:00:59.760 have a team that helps you get started on Twitch, 1:01:00.400 --> 1:01:03.720 accelerates you to the rev share that we talked about earlier, 1:01:03.720 --> 1:01:05.720 so that way you can get going, and then also 1:01:05.800 --> 1:01:08.400 connects you with other creators so that way we can 1:01:08.480 --> 1:01:12.120 help to encourage this usage. 1:01:19.040 --> 1:01:24.280 Okay, Originally every act needed a website, Then they needed 1:01:24.320 --> 1:01:27.520 to be on Wikipedia, then they needed to be on 1:01:27.600 --> 1:01:33.600 Facebook than Twitter. Now, of course X and people talk 1:01:33.640 --> 1:01:39.200 about TikTok. Why doesn't every musician have an account and 1:01:39.360 --> 1:01:42.000 stream some at Twitch. 1:01:46.600 --> 1:01:48.640 I think it would be good for every musician to 1:01:48.680 --> 1:01:51.560 do it. I will tell you the ones that are 1:01:51.600 --> 1:01:53.560 more naturally doing it tends to be a little more 1:01:53.560 --> 1:01:55.440 of the young ones because if you grew up in 1:01:55.480 --> 1:01:58.200 a given model of the music scene. But let me 1:01:58.240 --> 1:02:02.240 tell you why some shouldn't. First second, Okay, as opposed 1:02:02.240 --> 1:02:03.960 to arguing that everyone should, let me tell you why 1:02:03.960 --> 1:02:10.320 some shouldn't. For some artists, you create a mystique, you 1:02:10.440 --> 1:02:12.920 create a character. So I'll pick one as an example, 1:02:12.960 --> 1:02:17.760 Lady Gotgat, Right, Lady gog Got is this amazing character 1:02:18.440 --> 1:02:21.439 right that she's created, And I don't know if it's 1:02:21.480 --> 1:02:25.560 the right thing to lift the veil on that character. 1:02:26.680 --> 1:02:31.479 Okay that sometimes that's actually a great thing. Okay, other 1:02:31.680 --> 1:02:36.160 artists are not as such. Right. For example, it's absolutely 1:02:36.200 --> 1:02:38.080 the case that rap and hip hop there's much more 1:02:38.080 --> 1:02:41.320 of an intimacy and immediacy, but the same in country music, 1:02:41.360 --> 1:02:43.800 the same in lots of music, where there's more of 1:02:43.840 --> 1:02:47.480 this kind of authenticity, this connection all that. So I 1:02:47.560 --> 1:02:51.760 don't think every artist wants to lower the veil and 1:02:52.200 --> 1:02:55.040 like just kind of have the rawness that happens in line, 1:02:55.560 --> 1:02:57.800 but I think for many artists. So one reason is 1:02:57.800 --> 1:03:00.440 for some artists, if I say this to a label, like, 1:03:00.960 --> 1:03:02.920 if you're an artist and you like them more as 1:03:02.960 --> 1:03:05.040 you get to know them more, they're a great person 1:03:05.080 --> 1:03:07.480 for twitch because their audience are going to like them 1:03:07.520 --> 1:03:10.040 more as they get to know them more. Okay, because 1:03:10.040 --> 1:03:14.320 you can't hide yourself when you're live, you can't you know, 1:03:14.520 --> 1:03:16.760 create We all know that part of what happens is 1:03:16.760 --> 1:03:20.080 we create these images that is not exactly who we are, 1:03:20.480 --> 1:03:22.760 and you can't keep that up when you're when you're live. 1:03:23.160 --> 1:03:26.400 So I think for those artists where they're kind of 1:03:26.480 --> 1:03:29.960 authentic and intimacy and they want that authenticity with their 1:03:30.080 --> 1:03:32.240 with their audience as long as they enjoy it, they 1:03:32.240 --> 1:03:34.640 should absolutely be live stream. 1:03:34.760 --> 1:03:38.720 Well, going back to your Lady Gaga example, mystery is 1:03:38.760 --> 1:03:42.120 pretty much history in the music business because you can 1:03:42.160 --> 1:03:46.800 find out anything about everybody, et cetera. There is hang 1:03:46.960 --> 1:03:50.959 over in the music business. People don't like the remuneration 1:03:51.160 --> 1:03:54.800 for recorded music has changed formula. People say, oh, in 1:03:54.880 --> 1:03:58.320 physical product era, et cetera, we're not going back to that. 1:03:58.800 --> 1:04:02.560 Okay, doesn't matter what album Sturgel Simpson releases. 1:04:03.720 --> 1:04:07.880 The other thing is, especially today now more than ever, 1:04:09.000 --> 1:04:13.600 the artists are very money focused and they want to 1:04:13.640 --> 1:04:17.960 sell board tickets. Needless to say, someone like Kim Kardashian 1:04:18.040 --> 1:04:22.600 is making more money than other than maybe Taylor Swift. Okay, 1:04:23.680 --> 1:04:27.720 so I don't get the disc This is just my opinion. 1:04:28.240 --> 1:04:33.640 Twitch still has a exoticism to it. It's still an 1:04:33.760 --> 1:04:39.760 island offshore. When you know, you get a lot of musicians, 1:04:40.160 --> 1:04:43.040 you know, they think they have to create something snappy 1:04:43.840 --> 1:04:47.480 for short form video content, and then most of them, 1:04:47.520 --> 1:04:49.960 which is just horrible. They let some team do it, 1:04:50.000 --> 1:04:55.640 which is worthless, right, Okay, I just don't understand why 1:04:55.720 --> 1:04:59.000 everybody isn't on Twitch. There's a communication. 1:04:59.400 --> 1:05:03.520 Look, I don't disagree, I think Look, I completely agree. 1:05:03.640 --> 1:05:09.160 I do think that with short form content, we've been 1:05:09.280 --> 1:05:12.200 used to this radical change in the industry, right because 1:05:12.240 --> 1:05:17.000 TikTok and just bam it explodes, right, Okay, I don't 1:05:17.080 --> 1:05:19.680 think the world changes as quick when it comes to 1:05:20.000 --> 1:05:23.560 longer form, more intimate connection, because it's not like just 1:05:23.600 --> 1:05:27.320 show up and suddenly you get success. Okay, So I've 1:05:27.360 --> 1:05:31.720 seen a massive I will use a comparison. Okay, if 1:05:31.800 --> 1:05:34.640 I was at if I went to the different parties 1:05:34.640 --> 1:05:39.360 the week before the Grammys, uh two years ago, and 1:05:39.440 --> 1:05:42.200 I got introduced, I bet you if you and I 1:05:42.240 --> 1:05:45.920 we you know David masseyas if two years ago we 1:05:45.920 --> 1:05:48.720 were at the same event and David introduced me, you 1:05:48.720 --> 1:05:51.960 wouldn't have been like, oh actually. 1:05:51.600 --> 1:05:55.280 I would have. But I understand the concept. 1:05:57.840 --> 1:06:01.040 May you may have you may have end Okay, But 1:06:01.280 --> 1:06:03.200 and I will tell you the number of times that 1:06:03.240 --> 1:06:05.920 I'm out there and someone here is I'm the CEO 1:06:05.920 --> 1:06:10.960 of Twitch they're like, oh, I need to talk to 1:06:11.000 --> 1:06:15.040 you now, okay, And that is markedly different than two 1:06:15.120 --> 1:06:17.880 years ago or even one year ago. Literally almost I 1:06:17.920 --> 1:06:20.240 would say, it's like eighty percent of the people that 1:06:20.400 --> 1:06:23.440 someone introduced me to somebody, to an artist, to an agent, 1:06:23.480 --> 1:06:26.280 to someone down there. And the same thing was true 1:06:26.320 --> 1:06:28.520 when I was at the Super Bowl. Eighty percent of 1:06:28.560 --> 1:06:32.160 the times I met someone would say oh, like they 1:06:32.200 --> 1:06:34.200 would peer cup and says, oh, I need to talk 1:06:34.240 --> 1:06:37.920 to you okay, because I need to understand. So this 1:06:38.120 --> 1:06:42.440 is happening now. But the reality is it just takes time. 1:06:43.160 --> 1:06:46.200 It just takes time. And every you know, every two months. 1:06:46.480 --> 1:06:49.320 You know, this year at the grammyspread again in Septa 1:06:49.360 --> 1:06:51.840 and blackwa Max were nominated for Grammy first song they 1:06:51.880 --> 1:06:55.760 wrote on Twitch, Right, that creates more attention, more attension 1:06:55.760 --> 1:06:58.080 builds more attention. But it just takes time. 1:06:59.600 --> 1:07:04.000 Okay. The NBA was the first league to go to Twitter. 1:07:04.080 --> 1:07:07.440 It lived on Twitter. And as you say, the lifestyle 1:07:07.640 --> 1:07:11.560 and lives of hip hop artists, that is one of 1:07:11.680 --> 1:07:14.720 the way you promote the so called air quote brand 1:07:15.880 --> 1:07:19.919 other artists they're not used to this. Is it a 1:07:19.960 --> 1:07:24.000 matter of getting Okay, Well, we talk about software. We 1:07:24.040 --> 1:07:27.600 talk about, Oh, we're talking about killer rap for a platform. 1:07:28.040 --> 1:07:31.680 Is it a matter of Twitch, of getting some specific 1:07:31.840 --> 1:07:34.960 artist who is not in that vertical of hip hop 1:07:35.240 --> 1:07:38.080 or pop to come have a presence on Twitch? 1:07:38.240 --> 1:07:41.840 Is that what's gonna take? I think what is what happens? 1:07:41.920 --> 1:07:44.600 Is it sort of it sort of builds. But yes, 1:07:44.840 --> 1:07:47.440 I think it is somebody starting to do it. I mean, 1:07:47.880 --> 1:07:50.520 like Bieber did it, and now a lot of folks 1:07:50.600 --> 1:07:52.680 because Bieber did a lot, more people like, oh maybe 1:07:52.680 --> 1:07:55.240 I just should do that. Maybe and Bieber really, you know. 1:07:55.520 --> 1:07:59.000 I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop your second Okay. Unlike 1:07:59.080 --> 1:08:03.000 when I was growning up, everything is niche. Even Taylor 1:08:03.040 --> 1:08:07.960 Swift is niche. Bieber very big artist, but the vast 1:08:07.960 --> 1:08:11.440 majority of the public could give a shit, Okay, So 1:08:11.600 --> 1:08:18.719 therefore Jason is Bell, Chris Stapleton. Yeah, their fans tend 1:08:18.720 --> 1:08:20.400 not to be Bieber fians. I'm not gonna go through 1:08:20.400 --> 1:08:22.680 each one. I don't think Don Henley will do. 1:08:22.720 --> 1:08:26.240 It, but I agree, I agree. This is what i'd say. 1:08:26.400 --> 1:08:29.599 And let's focus in the And I don't know about 1:08:30.160 --> 1:08:33.080 your views on the Americana label, so I'll say the 1:08:33.120 --> 1:08:35.479 Americana and country label. I don't know your views on 1:08:35.520 --> 1:08:39.200 that right that label, which I'm sure they're strong. I 1:08:39.240 --> 1:08:41.519 actually think that's In fact, it's one reason why I'm 1:08:41.560 --> 1:08:44.200 going to Nashville and April. I think it's an extremely 1:08:44.320 --> 1:08:50.920 well suited genre. Okay. I do think it's gonna need one, two, three, 1:08:51.040 --> 1:08:54.400 four that start doing it to kind of show people 1:08:54.439 --> 1:08:57.519 what what you do on there. Okay. And I don't 1:08:57.560 --> 1:09:00.800 think in that genre it's quite, but it's gonna be. 1:09:01.000 --> 1:09:03.200 You know, a few people start doing it and then 1:09:03.240 --> 1:09:06.280 it's like, oh wow, this is great. Now, I will 1:09:06.320 --> 1:09:09.120 say this in terms of who is the right person. Okay, 1:09:09.439 --> 1:09:12.640 this is going to make my point that not everyone 1:09:13.880 --> 1:09:17.240 is live the right format for them. I'll use an 1:09:17.280 --> 1:09:21.840 example of someone that of probably my favorite group out 1:09:21.840 --> 1:09:26.880 there is Turnpike Troubadors. Okay. Having met Evan Falker once, 1:09:26.960 --> 1:09:29.200 I'm not sure he would enjoy going live. I think 1:09:29.240 --> 1:09:33.200 it would be work for him. Okay. And so if 1:09:33.240 --> 1:09:35.320 it's worked for you to be there in front of 1:09:35.320 --> 1:09:39.800 the camera like off the cuff, then life may not 1:09:39.840 --> 1:09:41.320 be this. So it's not universal. 1:09:41.680 --> 1:09:45.479 It's I understand your point, you know, I've come actually 1:09:45.520 --> 1:09:50.200 coming more to your defense the music world has changed. 1:09:51.320 --> 1:09:54.840 It's as simple as people. You know, people were songwriters. 1:09:56.120 --> 1:09:57.760 If they had a song on an album, they made 1:09:57.800 --> 1:09:59.760 as much money as they made on the hit other 1:09:59.840 --> 1:10:03.840 than and for radio airplay, etc. Yes, people want to 1:10:03.840 --> 1:10:06.919 go back to that era. It's never come exactly. Okay, 1:10:07.439 --> 1:10:11.320 I don't agree more okay. So we have these artists 1:10:11.680 --> 1:10:16.840 who say I am a songwriter a musician, only most 1:10:16.840 --> 1:10:19.720 of them tend to be older or tend to be 1:10:19.800 --> 1:10:21.639 in genres that don't generate. 1:10:21.840 --> 1:10:24.760 Also, by the way, tend to be established, because you 1:10:24.840 --> 1:10:28.720 can be that when you are established as a songwriter. 1:10:29.200 --> 1:10:31.920 You know, listen, I hear from these people all day long. 1:10:32.479 --> 1:10:37.080 If you're selling out arenas, there's basically no issue. The 1:10:37.120 --> 1:10:40.760 next step above that is stadiums. It's people who had 1:10:40.800 --> 1:10:42.479 success in the old era. 1:10:42.640 --> 1:10:45.880 Oh that's fair, or they and they're not anymore now. 1:10:45.880 --> 1:10:48.160 They're maybe on an old tour like a right it 1:10:48.200 --> 1:10:49.439 can start going tour. 1:10:49.920 --> 1:10:55.120 Their deals were keeping them alive even though the sales 1:10:55.200 --> 1:10:57.639 were not as high or the airplay was not as high. 1:10:57.840 --> 1:11:01.960 So I would pause it that what a musical artist 1:11:02.000 --> 1:11:06.559 today is not what it was before. Your identity and 1:11:06.720 --> 1:11:09.920 expressing yourself is part of the whole hate urbina using 1:11:09.920 --> 1:11:12.280 a holistic view of who you are. 1:11:12.920 --> 1:11:15.960 I completely agree. I'll take somebody who's past the point 1:11:16.000 --> 1:11:19.080 of doing it. But let's assume he were fifteen years 1:11:19.120 --> 1:11:22.599 younger or something like that. Okay, someone like Neil Diamond. 1:11:23.640 --> 1:11:26.920 To take someone you can imagine someone like him like 1:11:27.479 --> 1:11:31.040 really building a big audience, and you know, again he's 1:11:31.120 --> 1:11:33.439 the point now that he can't tour around. But I 1:11:33.479 --> 1:11:34.840 actually completely agree with you. 1:11:34.920 --> 1:11:37.120 Well, you know there are some people, some byn like 1:11:37.160 --> 1:11:40.160 Paul Anka who was on Yeah Bill Maher the other night. 1:11:40.520 --> 1:11:43.879 He's got a lot of personality, et cetera, Garth Brooks, 1:11:44.120 --> 1:11:46.360 As I say, is it a matter of getting with you? 1:11:46.640 --> 1:11:48.680 Is a matter of getting one of those people on. 1:11:48.960 --> 1:11:52.679 Let's just go sideways for a second. What I'm going 1:11:52.760 --> 1:11:55.679 to start streaming, not literally, but I'm gonna start streaming 1:11:55.720 --> 1:11:58.720 on twitch. What are the music rights issue? Can I 1:11:58.760 --> 1:11:59.880 play any music I watch? 1:12:00.320 --> 1:12:03.559 Let me go through. That's a great, that's great. So 1:12:04.640 --> 1:12:08.800 with music rights, first of all, let's go to you 1:12:09.000 --> 1:12:13.439 playing music, not recorded music. Okay. So we have the 1:12:13.479 --> 1:12:18.639 publishing rights for live for the live performance of the music. Okay, 1:12:18.800 --> 1:12:21.559 So when I stream, I do cover songs. We have 1:12:21.600 --> 1:12:28.080 all those rights, no issue. Okay, if you're playing recorded music. Okay. 1:12:28.200 --> 1:12:33.519 If you're playing recorded music, okay. So we have an 1:12:33.560 --> 1:12:36.000 agreement with the labels that is opposed to having to 1:12:36.040 --> 1:12:40.479 issue a DMCA. They notify us if somebody is playing 1:12:40.520 --> 1:12:42.680 recorded music that they have a concern with, So that 1:12:42.680 --> 1:12:44.600 way we can notify them and it doesn't have to 1:12:44.600 --> 1:12:47.920 go through the DMCA. Okay. In general, right now, the 1:12:48.000 --> 1:12:51.040 labels aren't so concerned. Now, let me go through a 1:12:51.080 --> 1:12:54.360 category where we have do full rights for if you're 1:12:54.400 --> 1:12:58.599 a DJ, or let's assume for a second somebody wanted 1:12:58.640 --> 1:13:02.320 to do a radio show. Okay, we do have the 1:13:02.360 --> 1:13:05.639 ability for you to get full rights for the catalog 1:13:05.720 --> 1:13:10.120 to play them while you're streaming. Okay, it's under particular 1:13:10.160 --> 1:13:12.320 deal that we have that the labels. Now, a portion 1:13:12.439 --> 1:13:15.200 of your revenue get shared with the labels. Okay. So 1:13:15.280 --> 1:13:16.920 if what you want to do is sit on and 1:13:16.960 --> 1:13:21.240 play recorded music and that's what your creative expression is, okay, 1:13:21.360 --> 1:13:23.200 you can do that. You just have to sign up. 1:13:23.240 --> 1:13:24.800 It's a DJ deal. But you don't have to be 1:13:24.800 --> 1:13:27.080 doing dance music for the DJ deal. Right If I 1:13:27.080 --> 1:13:28.080 want to play all. 1:13:28.640 --> 1:13:31.559 So if I'm saying I was driving down the street 1:13:31.560 --> 1:13:34.479 and I heard this amazing record I'm playing for you. Now, 1:13:35.880 --> 1:13:38.400 there's not really a deal for that. The label could 1:13:38.400 --> 1:13:40.160 come and say, hey, you know, can't do. 1:13:40.200 --> 1:13:43.120 That, right, but the labels as long as you're not 1:13:43.400 --> 1:13:45.400 abusing and like you know and others trying. 1:13:45.200 --> 1:13:49.160 To wait, let's not talk reality because there are many 1:13:49.200 --> 1:13:52.439 people see this promotional and then there are certain artists 1:13:52.479 --> 1:13:53.840 who clamp down no matter. 1:13:54.720 --> 1:13:57.080 Yeah, yeah, okay, we did not, but we we have. 1:13:57.320 --> 1:13:59.479 We have an agreement where as opposed to need to 1:13:59.560 --> 1:14:01.920 do DM. The labels can come and work with us. 1:14:02.080 --> 1:14:05.240 So why don't you have an overall agreement for the recordings. 1:14:07.920 --> 1:14:11.000 Let's talk about the primary way that people end up 1:14:11.000 --> 1:14:14.320 with music on their stream. Okay, the primary mean isn't 1:14:14.400 --> 1:14:17.000 is what you kind of said, where music is just 1:14:17.080 --> 1:14:20.320 sort of in the background. They're gaming and there's some 1:14:20.439 --> 1:14:24.439 music playing in the background. Okay, it is not a 1:14:24.560 --> 1:14:30.559 significant portion of their creative expression, which is different from 1:14:30.680 --> 1:14:33.600 actually a DJ. A DJ to music is a significant 1:14:33.640 --> 1:14:38.960 portion of their creative expression. And so getting the right 1:14:39.040 --> 1:14:42.240 deal where in terms of what the REV share split 1:14:42.320 --> 1:14:45.040 would be when it's not a significant portion, it's just 1:14:45.160 --> 1:14:48.479 complicated and hasn't been very simple because in general, the 1:14:48.520 --> 1:14:52.640 labels are used to dealing where the music is a 1:14:52.680 --> 1:14:56.479 significant portion of the creative expression, which is exactly why 1:14:56.520 --> 1:14:59.160 we did the DJ deal. Okay, but if it's in 1:14:59.200 --> 1:15:01.160 the background, that's we have an agreement that this is 1:15:01.160 --> 1:15:04.040 an issue. They notify us and so we don't encourage it. 1:15:04.479 --> 1:15:09.839 But it would be difficult to get the right revenue 1:15:09.840 --> 1:15:11.439 share split for something like that. 1:15:12.439 --> 1:15:15.080 Okay, how did you end up as the CEO of Twitch? 1:15:17.160 --> 1:15:21.960 It's an interesting route. I will go back. Actually, when 1:15:21.960 --> 1:15:26.400 I was in undergrad I was actually a computer science 1:15:26.400 --> 1:15:27.160 and theater major. 1:15:27.840 --> 1:15:31.280 And so if we're going back to the beginning, where 1:15:31.280 --> 1:15:32.000 did you grow up? 1:15:32.720 --> 1:15:34.200 I grew up in New Orleans. 1:15:34.720 --> 1:15:36.360 And what did your parents do for a living? 1:15:37.360 --> 1:15:41.479 My dad was sort of in consulting type of stuff. 1:15:41.479 --> 1:15:43.639 He had been an engineer and then he did some consulting. 1:15:43.760 --> 1:15:46.639 And my mom raised seven kids and also was heavily 1:15:46.680 --> 1:15:48.920 involved in politics too. 1:15:49.760 --> 1:15:51.640 Except where are you in the hierarchy? 1:15:52.080 --> 1:15:55.160 I'm the well, I'm the second oldest, but my dad 1:15:55.200 --> 1:15:58.920 died before I was born. Actually, my dad was flying 1:15:58.960 --> 1:16:02.920 home to see my mom on Father's Day, and you know, 1:16:03.160 --> 1:16:07.040 you plane that he was flying assessminent type thing, any crash. 1:16:07.360 --> 1:16:09.280 And then my mom remarried and I have five younger 1:16:09.320 --> 1:16:13.920 brothers and sisters, and so yeah, I'm one of the 1:16:13.960 --> 1:16:14.559 older ones. 1:16:14.760 --> 1:16:18.639 Okay, you are as I say, I'm self editing, because 1:16:18.680 --> 1:16:22.360 people have such reactions to these terms, like successful, you 1:16:23.160 --> 1:16:25.439 are very successful. What happened to the other six? 1:16:28.120 --> 1:16:30.439 Ally? My brother, Well, that actually is one of the 1:16:30.439 --> 1:16:32.320 stories I was gonna tell, because there's a whole different 1:16:32.320 --> 1:16:35.360 world where I became a creative So my brother. I 1:16:35.400 --> 1:16:37.400 have one brother who runs a theater in New York 1:16:37.560 --> 1:16:41.400 called The Drilling Company, and he's been an actor and 1:16:41.640 --> 1:16:43.920 you know, trying to make ends meet as an actor 1:16:43.960 --> 1:16:46.559 his whole life. He's one year older than me. I 1:16:46.560 --> 1:16:48.519 have a sister who still does a lot of acting 1:16:48.680 --> 1:16:52.200 and performance. I have another brother different last name than me. 1:16:52.280 --> 1:16:54.800 By the way, my younger siblings have different last names. 1:16:55.120 --> 1:16:59.200 Who's the CEO of the Fred Rogers Company, which is 1:16:59.320 --> 1:17:01.840 very much a you know, part of that creative bank, right, 1:17:03.160 --> 1:17:05.360 so you know, in different things. And his sister lives 1:17:05.400 --> 1:17:10.880 in North Carolina. Another sister who's a lawyer that lives 1:17:10.880 --> 1:17:17.519 in Colorado, so sort of across the board mishmash your father. 1:17:17.880 --> 1:17:22.439 You literally not knowing your father to what degree? Is 1:17:22.479 --> 1:17:25.160 there an emotional hangover there and you have to work 1:17:25.240 --> 1:17:25.759 that through. 1:17:26.840 --> 1:17:29.920 Yeah. The interesting thing was since I grew up in 1:17:29.960 --> 1:17:33.559 my mind having a father, right because when I went 1:17:33.640 --> 1:17:36.240 my mom was remarried by the time I was two 1:17:36.320 --> 1:17:40.360 and a half, right, Okay, So in my mind I 1:17:40.400 --> 1:17:42.679 have had a father and he's been a wonderful father. 1:17:42.800 --> 1:17:46.000 He's cared for me everything, So I don't have this 1:17:46.160 --> 1:17:49.680 hangover from when I was young, if you will. The 1:17:49.800 --> 1:17:53.960 interesting part is you I have had to find out 1:17:53.960 --> 1:17:57.439 more about who I am because biologically I'm very different 1:17:57.640 --> 1:18:04.599 than the father who raised me. Okay, my birth father, 1:18:06.240 --> 1:18:08.720 he's Irish. He has a brother that lives in New 1:18:08.800 --> 1:18:11.320 York who's a sculptor, who's the only member of his 1:18:11.360 --> 1:18:14.240 family that I've had a connection to. There's a lot 1:18:14.280 --> 1:18:16.960 of similarities from talking to my uncle about me and 1:18:17.000 --> 1:18:21.680 my birth father. My mom actually didn't talk about my 1:18:21.760 --> 1:18:24.160 birth father almost at all when I was growing up 1:18:24.880 --> 1:18:28.920 because the emotional trauma of losing him when she had, 1:18:29.280 --> 1:18:31.320 you know, one baby and another one on the way, 1:18:31.360 --> 1:18:33.240 and she was only like a month pregnant with me 1:18:33.439 --> 1:18:36.160 when he died, and so nobody knew that she was 1:18:36.200 --> 1:18:39.200 pregnant when she got the news that he had passed away. 1:18:40.840 --> 1:18:43.200 That so she just couldn't deal with it, so she 1:18:43.240 --> 1:18:45.160 wouldn't talk about my dad at all. So it's only 1:18:45.200 --> 1:18:49.120 as I've gotten older that I've gotten to know my 1:18:49.280 --> 1:18:51.800 father by talking to my uncle, by doing all sorts 1:18:51.840 --> 1:18:54.920 of things. So it's more and then I find out 1:18:54.920 --> 1:18:59.320 things about myself that I realize, huh, that's probably that's 1:18:59.479 --> 1:19:02.040 you know, that's part of my father that is still 1:19:02.080 --> 1:19:05.320 in me somewhere. But it's not that I have like 1:19:06.720 --> 1:19:13.479 any baggage from not having a father. It's more this 1:19:13.680 --> 1:19:18.160 interesting exploration of finding out who this person was. 1:19:18.880 --> 1:19:20.759 Do you go to public school or private school? 1:19:21.760 --> 1:19:24.400 I went to public school until fifth grade, and then 1:19:24.439 --> 1:19:26.680 I went to in New Orleans, most people go to 1:19:26.760 --> 1:19:29.200 all boys or all female Catholic schools. So I went 1:19:29.240 --> 1:19:32.080 to an all male Catholic school through fifth through eighth 1:19:32.080 --> 1:19:33.280 grade and then in high school. 1:19:34.320 --> 1:19:37.840 To what degree? Did that indoctrination fuck you up? 1:19:42.360 --> 1:19:46.080 So? New Orleans is like seventy percent Catholic, okay, And 1:19:47.280 --> 1:19:50.479 you know, I'd like to think it didn't. I've been 1:19:50.520 --> 1:19:52.559 able to handle it well I have a very healthy 1:19:52.680 --> 1:19:56.559 attitude towards all that. It is funny, I've been thinking 1:19:56.560 --> 1:19:59.600 about that lately. Where I am. I do not practice 1:20:00.800 --> 1:20:04.160 catholow Simmary religion. And I always think, you know, if 1:20:04.200 --> 1:20:07.800 somebody is sharing the words of Jesus Christ, there's a 1:20:07.840 --> 1:20:09.720 lot to be learned there. Then there's a lot to 1:20:09.720 --> 1:20:13.800 be shared there. If they're preaching the Old Testament, I 1:20:13.800 --> 1:20:16.640 don't know, that's a different story. But so I have 1:20:16.680 --> 1:20:19.360 a very healthy attitude. I kind of went through this 1:20:19.880 --> 1:20:22.720 path or I have a very healthy attitude towards all 1:20:22.760 --> 1:20:25.200 the good things, even though there are lots of challenges too. 1:20:26.000 --> 1:20:27.839 So were you the smartest kid in the class? 1:20:30.040 --> 1:20:31.800 I did pretty well. But I will tell you one 1:20:31.800 --> 1:20:34.759 of those stories I love to tell. Interestingly, this relates 1:20:34.760 --> 1:20:38.439 to streaming. So one thing that I realized about a 1:20:38.479 --> 1:20:41.720 year ago. And my kids always told me they all 1:20:41.760 --> 1:20:46.760 identify as having ADHD. Okay, And they said, oh, Dad, 1:20:46.760 --> 1:20:48.800 we think you have ADHDM. It's like, what do you mean, 1:20:48.920 --> 1:20:52.200 I have a PhD in Ai. I went to Duke like, 1:20:52.280 --> 1:20:55.160 I did really well, I don't have ADHD. Like, okay, 1:20:55.200 --> 1:20:56.760 do you have ADHD? I said no, I don't. And 1:20:56.760 --> 1:20:59.200 then I read more about Adhd and then I realized, 1:20:59.360 --> 1:21:02.120 and I look back to my childhood and I realized, 1:21:02.160 --> 1:21:06.080 I'm a poster child Adhd. Okay on the spectrum, and 1:21:06.120 --> 1:21:08.040 in fact, this is one thing we can get back 1:21:08.080 --> 1:21:10.880 to this. Most streamers you find are because they have 1:21:10.920 --> 1:21:14.080 this superpower of their mind being able to process multiple 1:21:14.160 --> 1:21:17.920 things at once. But I tell this story because in 1:21:18.000 --> 1:21:21.719 fourth grade I was having trouble. I wasn't doing well 1:21:21.760 --> 1:21:24.760 in school. And then I went to fifth grade at 1:21:24.760 --> 1:21:27.360 this Christian Brothers all boys school and my parents had 1:21:27.400 --> 1:21:30.720 to talk my way in because I wasn't doing very 1:21:30.720 --> 1:21:33.120 well in fourth grade. My brother was already there and 1:21:33.160 --> 1:21:35.120 they had to push me to get into what was 1:21:35.160 --> 1:21:38.960 the better of the three classes with this guy, brother Gregory, 1:21:39.360 --> 1:21:41.599 and this teacher. The way he taught was he had 1:21:41.680 --> 1:21:44.559 something that he called good Marks where he gave out 1:21:44.600 --> 1:21:48.000 what basically were credits okay, And at the end of 1:21:48.000 --> 1:21:50.640 every week he had a Jeopardy game to learn the 1:21:50.680 --> 1:21:52.479 stuff you were supposed to learn that week, and you 1:21:52.479 --> 1:21:54.439 were quizzed on this stuff for that week, and if 1:21:54.439 --> 1:21:56.919 you won Jeopardy, you got ice cream to play football. 1:21:56.960 --> 1:21:59.080 Then you got good Marks, and at the end of 1:21:59.080 --> 1:22:02.599 the semester, you could spend the good marks on this 1:22:02.600 --> 1:22:05.640 this like, uh, everybody brought in their old toys and 1:22:05.680 --> 1:22:09.439 they bought you know, an exchange. Anyway, he gained a 1:22:09.479 --> 1:22:13.360 fied learning for me, and I went from being barely 1:22:13.439 --> 1:22:15.040 in there to be one of the top two or 1:22:15.040 --> 1:22:18.719 three kids in the class because he basically turned learning 1:22:18.760 --> 1:22:22.240 into a game, which was like a poster child of 1:22:22.280 --> 1:22:24.960 what you need to do for someone with ADHD. And 1:22:25.000 --> 1:22:27.679 then once I had the confidence that I was smart, 1:22:27.800 --> 1:22:31.479 because then I thought of myself as smart. So then 1:22:31.520 --> 1:22:35.240 I kept performing. But I needed to think of myself 1:22:35.280 --> 1:22:38.679 as smart. And the only way I thought of myself 1:22:38.680 --> 1:22:41.040 as smart is because I just happened to have this 1:22:41.160 --> 1:22:44.120 teacher at the perfect time that taught in a non 1:22:44.160 --> 1:22:46.920 traditional way. So yes, I was one of the top 1:22:47.000 --> 1:22:50.320 kids in the class, but it wasn't it was by 1:22:50.439 --> 1:22:52.240 chance that everything worked out for me. 1:23:00.080 --> 1:23:03.360 And where does the theater angle come from. 1:23:03.520 --> 1:23:06.120 My brother was into theater. I got into theater. And 1:23:06.160 --> 1:23:08.040 the only reason I mention it is because it's this 1:23:08.240 --> 1:23:12.080 interesting twist with twitch because when you ask about how 1:23:12.120 --> 1:23:15.160 did I get here, right, I've spent most of my career, 1:23:15.400 --> 1:23:19.320 all of my career in the technical space. After a duke, 1:23:19.400 --> 1:23:21.880 I worked in a technical capacity. Then I got a 1:23:21.880 --> 1:23:26.360 PhD in AI. Then I worked at NASA leading their 1:23:26.360 --> 1:23:29.640 autonomy and robotics group in AI. And then I was 1:23:29.680 --> 1:23:31.799 at Google and YouTube, and I was at a startup 1:23:31.840 --> 1:23:33.880 next door. So basically I've spent my whole life in 1:23:33.920 --> 1:23:39.240 a technical product and engineering role. Okay, but am I root? 1:23:39.640 --> 1:23:42.519 I'm really a creative and in a different world. If 1:23:42.520 --> 1:23:44.680 I were coming out today as opposed to using my 1:23:44.760 --> 1:23:48.599 mask skills, I could every much found myself being a creative. 1:23:48.680 --> 1:23:50.680 And I've also always been a music fan. I had 1:23:50.680 --> 1:23:53.759 a thousand albums. I taught myself to play the piano. 1:23:55.040 --> 1:23:58.400 So there's a different life where I didn't go technical 1:23:58.520 --> 1:24:02.320 and I did something in news are in creative expression. 1:24:02.760 --> 1:24:04.880 And the thing I love about Twitch is it is 1:24:04.960 --> 1:24:07.920 this perfect bringing together of these two sides of my 1:24:08.000 --> 1:24:10.839 life that I did not I could not have predicted. 1:24:10.920 --> 1:24:14.439 It brings together my sort of business product technical skills 1:24:15.080 --> 1:24:19.920 with my creative uh you know, DNA. That has always 1:24:19.920 --> 1:24:21.600 been a big part of who I am. 1:24:22.120 --> 1:24:27.160 Okay, AI is the buzz term of today, isn't it. 1:24:27.280 --> 1:24:30.200 What What was AI like when you were getting your degree? 1:24:32.320 --> 1:24:34.719 So interesting. A lot of what has become the foundation 1:24:34.800 --> 1:24:38.040 of AI was part of AI back then. Okay. The 1:24:38.120 --> 1:24:41.160 interesting thing that there is this battle back then between 1:24:41.160 --> 1:24:45.559 two approaches to AI. One was the symbolic AI that 1:24:45.680 --> 1:24:48.679 tried to represent things in the way we think about 1:24:48.680 --> 1:24:52.040 how we think, Okay, so they tried to explicitly represent 1:24:52.680 --> 1:24:56.439 information and all that. And then the other was statistical AI, 1:24:57.000 --> 1:24:59.439 where they just had all sorts of data and they 1:24:59.600 --> 1:25:02.439 learned these complex models, which a neural net is the 1:25:02.439 --> 1:25:05.160 foundation of. And back then there was this battle of 1:25:05.200 --> 1:25:09.120 which type of AI would win. By the time I graduated, 1:25:09.120 --> 1:25:11.519 it was clear who was going to win. Statistical AI 1:25:11.680 --> 1:25:14.800 was going to win, okay, and statistical AI has been 1:25:14.840 --> 1:25:18.280 the thing that has dominated Okay. But the interesting thing 1:25:18.400 --> 1:25:22.479 is a lot of what people talked about then we 1:25:22.479 --> 1:25:25.160 were talking about the world that now exists, but we 1:25:25.200 --> 1:25:29.000 could never deliver on that, and only now because of 1:25:29.000 --> 1:25:32.800 some algorithmic improvements, but also because of a massive amount 1:25:32.840 --> 1:25:38.000 of data combined with computing. If another way to say this, 1:25:38.080 --> 1:25:41.200 if the World Wide Web never occurred, we wouldn't be 1:25:41.240 --> 1:25:43.680 where we're at with AI. One of the reasons we're 1:25:43.720 --> 1:25:46.400 at with the AI is because this thing occurred, carled 1:25:46.400 --> 1:25:50.120 the World Wide Web, which creative these massive data sets, 1:25:50.560 --> 1:25:53.439 and these massive data sets then allowed the algorithms to 1:25:53.479 --> 1:25:55.160 work in ways that previously they could. 1:25:55.920 --> 1:26:01.200 Okay, did you literally have a PhD? There certain experts 1:26:01.240 --> 1:26:04.280 who say this is a dead end the way we're 1:26:04.320 --> 1:26:08.200 doing it. If it's gonna start talking about thinking like 1:26:08.320 --> 1:26:10.920 people were at least thirty years off, what's your take 1:26:10.960 --> 1:26:11.320 on that? 1:26:15.400 --> 1:26:17.680 So this, I mean, I'm gonna try to be shorten this. 1:26:18.240 --> 1:26:18.639 Okay. 1:26:20.600 --> 1:26:26.000 We think that people think very logically and rationally. Okay, 1:26:26.200 --> 1:26:28.439 but they don't. But they don't. I don't know. Have 1:26:28.479 --> 1:26:30.280 you ever read about the system one brain and the 1:26:30.320 --> 1:26:31.120 system to brain? 1:26:31.640 --> 1:26:31.760 No? 1:26:32.439 --> 1:26:35.240 Okay, So all the research are your system one brain 1:26:35.360 --> 1:26:38.960 is your gut, your instincts, your intuition, all of that. Okay. 1:26:39.080 --> 1:26:42.639 Your system to brain is your reasoning and logic. Okay. 1:26:43.400 --> 1:26:46.479 All the evidence suggests that the primary usage of our 1:26:46.520 --> 1:26:49.720 system to brain are reasoning and logic is to come 1:26:49.800 --> 1:26:53.879 up with a plausible justification of the answer that pops 1:26:53.880 --> 1:26:55.880 into our head with our system one brain. As soon 1:26:55.920 --> 1:27:00.240 as you ask the question, okay, so what do you 1:27:00.240 --> 1:27:03.200 think about Sturgil Simpson releasing just an album and not 1:27:03.400 --> 1:27:06.080 an answer pops into your head. I think it's stupid. 1:27:06.120 --> 1:27:09.080 I think it's a great idea. Okay, then your system 1:27:09.120 --> 1:27:12.360 two brains explains that, and we think the reason we 1:27:12.439 --> 1:27:15.160 believe this is for all these good reasons, it's bullshit 1:27:15.640 --> 1:27:17.800 ninety five percent of the time. Which is one reason 1:27:17.840 --> 1:27:19.439 why we have the divide in the country we have 1:27:20.160 --> 1:27:23.120 is because you watch the same video to people's system, 1:27:23.160 --> 1:27:25.360 one brain tells them two different things, and then they 1:27:25.400 --> 1:27:30.280 try to justify. So the way humans think is through 1:27:30.400 --> 1:27:35.320 all this compiled thing, and so interestingly, that is the 1:27:35.320 --> 1:27:38.360 way AI is working now. So I actually think this 1:27:38.479 --> 1:27:40.920 idea that AI doesn't work the way humans brains thinks. 1:27:40.960 --> 1:27:44.080 I think it does work the way human brains thinks. Okay, 1:27:44.439 --> 1:27:48.040 I still think we are a long way. I think 1:27:48.080 --> 1:27:52.280 there is a vast misunderstanding of the complexity of human intelligence. 1:27:54.040 --> 1:27:56.720 I think that we think of the primary form of 1:27:56.800 --> 1:28:01.400 human intelligence as doing really hard math problems. Okay, But 1:28:01.760 --> 1:28:05.120 the really unique part about human intelligence is our ability 1:28:05.200 --> 1:28:09.519 to coordinate, cooperate, think about each other, you know, interact 1:28:09.560 --> 1:28:12.559 with each other. Okay, And that allows us to function 1:28:12.680 --> 1:28:15.439 as a unit. And I don't think AI has any 1:28:15.560 --> 1:28:18.800 data on that. So I believe that we keep projecting 1:28:18.840 --> 1:28:22.400 the advances in AI to continue like this, it's gonna 1:28:23.320 --> 1:28:27.760 asymptote okay. And I think this idea that AI will 1:28:27.800 --> 1:28:29.800 replace human beings, I think we still have a long 1:28:29.840 --> 1:28:32.200 way to go. And the people that like to tell 1:28:32.240 --> 1:28:34.240 you that are the ones that are trying to get 1:28:34.320 --> 1:28:37.559 lots of funding in AI. And also usually they're the 1:28:37.600 --> 1:28:41.480 math folks that tend to think the pinnacle of intelligence 1:28:41.520 --> 1:28:44.679 is doing hard maath, which I don't think the pinnacle 1:28:44.680 --> 1:28:46.920 of human intelligence is doing hard math. I think the 1:28:46.960 --> 1:28:50.960 pinnacle of human intelligence is all the complex interactions of 1:28:51.040 --> 1:28:53.479 humans doing all sorts of stuff with other humans. 1:28:55.080 --> 1:28:59.640 This is a really subsidiary point to your excellent delineation 1:28:59.800 --> 1:29:07.240 of the landscape. But math is one thing the present 1:29:07.320 --> 1:29:12.200 models hallucinate such that you know, I find mistakes all 1:29:12.240 --> 1:29:15.439 the time. Is that something that you feel can be 1:29:15.520 --> 1:29:16.680 conquered in the short. 1:29:16.479 --> 1:29:27.280 Term, the degree that it happens will be improved, Okay, 1:29:28.600 --> 1:29:34.280 But the short answer is so the egregious examples, yes, 1:29:35.640 --> 1:29:40.320 the non egregious examples are non And the problem comes 1:29:40.360 --> 1:29:44.599 in is AI is like that trend of yours who 1:29:44.640 --> 1:29:49.519 thinks they're an expert in everything okay, and they speak 1:29:49.560 --> 1:29:53.280 with such great authority that you actually think they are right. 1:29:54.280 --> 1:29:58.479 Oh yay, because they speak with such great authority that 1:29:58.560 --> 1:30:01.280 you think they know everything, and the reality is they're 1:30:01.280 --> 1:30:05.920 bullshitting you and they don't, and really you're being wrong. 1:30:06.000 --> 1:30:09.160 So like, I'm trying to fix this Watt bike I 1:30:09.280 --> 1:30:12.080 have that's like this exercise bike and it's not working. 1:30:12.120 --> 1:30:14.920 And I use AI and it talks with so much 1:30:14.960 --> 1:30:18.160 authority that I think that it knows exactly the problem, 1:30:18.240 --> 1:30:21.599 and actually it's taking me down dead end trail. 1:30:22.080 --> 1:30:25.240 Okay, but it is so confident, and I know that 1:30:25.400 --> 1:30:28.479 sometimes because I'll ask questions and then like sometimes I 1:30:28.600 --> 1:30:31.599 use ai'd ask questions about twitch stuff and they'll tell 1:30:31.640 --> 1:30:33.320 me an answer with absolute confidence. 1:30:33.360 --> 1:30:36.760 I'm like, they completely got this wrong, okay, but they 1:30:36.800 --> 1:30:40.880 misunderstood it. So I guess that it's the ones that 1:30:41.120 --> 1:30:44.800 are great fodder to put on a headline. I think 1:30:44.840 --> 1:30:47.840 we can solve that. The ones that we won't solve 1:30:48.240 --> 1:30:51.559 are these ones that you only know if you know 1:30:51.680 --> 1:30:54.479 something about the area and you know that it is 1:30:55.080 --> 1:30:55.720 bullshitting you. 1:30:56.960 --> 1:31:01.880 Okay. Even in the Washington Post today, certain financial people 1:31:01.960 --> 1:31:07.360 believe that the market is up. There's investment in AI companies, 1:31:07.840 --> 1:31:13.719 but in realay productivity has not increased whatsoever. Okay. In addition, 1:31:14.000 --> 1:31:18.960 having lived for a while, it's been constant reports to 1:31:19.040 --> 1:31:22.280 the paper, maybe the market's going to crash. Is this 1:31:22.360 --> 1:31:25.280 a winner take all business? There's so much investment in 1:31:25.360 --> 1:31:28.320 open AI that they could never make their money back. 1:31:28.960 --> 1:31:29.960 What's your take here? 1:31:33.960 --> 1:31:39.599 So two things can be true at once. AI can 1:31:39.720 --> 1:31:43.040 have a massive impact on the world we live in 1:31:43.040 --> 1:31:46.639 in the future, and it can be overhyped. Right now, 1:31:48.280 --> 1:31:53.240 I'd say both are almost certainly true. And in fact, 1:31:53.280 --> 1:31:55.479 anything that is going to have a massive impact on 1:31:55.520 --> 1:32:00.280 the world will almost certainly be overhyped because that is 1:32:00.280 --> 1:32:03.280 the very nature of the world we live in. Okay. 1:32:03.520 --> 1:32:06.360 So I guess this is what I'll say about this 1:32:06.439 --> 1:32:11.760 question of crash and all that. Right, If if what 1:32:11.800 --> 1:32:14.880 you're selling is a bill of goods where there's no 1:32:15.040 --> 1:32:18.639 there there, then you have to worry about a crash 1:32:18.640 --> 1:32:22.320 because you have a crash and now it's all vapor 1:32:22.320 --> 1:32:27.120 where it's gone, okay, as opposed to thinking of a crash. 1:32:27.560 --> 1:32:32.200 Our market always has corrections, that's the nature of the markets. 1:32:33.000 --> 1:32:38.439 So will there be corrections, Well, almost certainly, because people 1:32:38.439 --> 1:32:40.400 are making a lot of bets on a lot of things, 1:32:40.479 --> 1:32:42.880 and some of those bets, if some of those bets 1:32:42.920 --> 1:32:45.920 didn't work out, then people are being stupid in their 1:32:45.960 --> 1:32:47.400 investment because you're not going to be able to get 1:32:47.439 --> 1:32:50.320 all your bets right right, So there are gonna be 1:32:50.320 --> 1:32:53.120 some bets that don't work out where it's overhyped, and 1:32:53.160 --> 1:32:55.439 then there're gonna be some bets that actually end up, 1:32:55.600 --> 1:33:01.519 you know, being you know, hugely consequential. And I always say, 1:33:01.520 --> 1:33:03.880 anyone that tells you that they know which bets are 1:33:03.880 --> 1:33:06.720 going to pay out and which ones aren't, Okay, if 1:33:06.720 --> 1:33:08.519 they are so good, then they should stop what they're 1:33:08.520 --> 1:33:10.680 doing and just invest in the market and they'll be 1:33:10.720 --> 1:33:15.639 a gazillionaire because I'm sorry, nobody knows exactly which ones 1:33:15.680 --> 1:33:17.120 are going to work and which ones aren't. It just 1:33:17.160 --> 1:33:18.200 everyone likes to talk. 1:33:18.560 --> 1:33:22.639 And what about the issue of regulation and fear with AI? 1:33:22.960 --> 1:33:23.880 What's your take on that? 1:33:24.960 --> 1:33:29.000 So let me take one part of the fear off 1:33:29.080 --> 1:33:33.920 the table. There are those people worried about the AI 1:33:34.120 --> 1:33:38.639 taking over. Okay, I don't think you have to worry 1:33:38.680 --> 1:33:40.960 about the AI. You have to worry about the people 1:33:41.000 --> 1:33:45.920 controlling the AI. That's a universal truth about new technology 1:33:46.040 --> 1:33:48.920 that any new technology that is powerful in what it 1:33:49.000 --> 1:33:52.080 can do in a positive fashion is powerful, and what 1:33:52.120 --> 1:33:53.800 it can do in a negative fashion. All you have 1:33:53.800 --> 1:33:56.080 to do is go back to gunpowder and all that. 1:33:56.200 --> 1:33:58.000 Lots of positive things it can do, and lots of 1:33:58.000 --> 1:33:59.840 negative things can do. And what you have to worry 1:33:59.840 --> 1:34:03.080 about as who's holding the gun right And that's a 1:34:03.360 --> 1:34:05.000 you know, a part of your concern or whatever the 1:34:05.040 --> 1:34:07.280 weapon is that that came out of that. But a 1:34:07.280 --> 1:34:09.000 lot of that allowed us to do all sorts of 1:34:09.000 --> 1:34:14.120 things as well. Okay, so I don't believe this idea 1:34:14.160 --> 1:34:16.760 of AI taking over the world. I think that's just 1:34:17.040 --> 1:34:24.560 science fiction. Will negative things happen from AI? Almost certainly. 1:34:26.000 --> 1:34:29.559 That's the very nature of tech innovation. And in every 1:34:29.600 --> 1:34:32.880 tech innovation, you know, there have been bad things that 1:34:32.920 --> 1:34:38.439 have come from it. I do think you need to 1:34:38.439 --> 1:34:41.600 think about what some of those things are. My apprehension 1:34:41.800 --> 1:34:48.920 is figuring out an intervention that can fix a hypothetical threat. 1:34:52.200 --> 1:34:55.400 I will use a couple examples. Suppose back in the 1:34:55.479 --> 1:34:59.200 nineteen twenties someone explained to you global warming and what 1:34:59.280 --> 1:35:02.919 we're going to happen, and from the industrialization of the globe, 1:35:03.360 --> 1:35:05.840 what policies should they have put in place in the 1:35:05.920 --> 1:35:08.960 nineteen twenties to avoid global warming? Well, we can't even 1:35:08.960 --> 1:35:11.439 agree on a policy to deal with global warming today 1:35:11.880 --> 1:35:14.280 and we have all the science explaining it. So this 1:35:14.400 --> 1:35:16.720 idea in the twenties they could have figured out the 1:35:16.760 --> 1:35:19.679 policies to put in place to prevent global warming. Let's 1:35:19.680 --> 1:35:22.639 talk about social networking. Lots of great things with social networking. 1:35:22.680 --> 1:35:24.960 A lot of people have concerns about different things in 1:35:25.040 --> 1:35:27.639 terms of the division and all that. In two thousand 1:35:27.640 --> 1:35:30.519 and eight, could anyone have figured out interventions to prevent 1:35:30.720 --> 1:35:33.599 whatever you think are the negative impacts of social network 1:35:33.960 --> 1:35:36.200 The answer is no, nobody could have figured it out 1:35:36.200 --> 1:35:38.880 in two thousand and eight. And so the problem is 1:35:38.920 --> 1:35:41.680 the answer is and if you overconstrain it, all you're 1:35:41.680 --> 1:35:44.720 going to do is ensure that some other country wins 1:35:44.960 --> 1:35:48.679 because you can constrain it here, But that doesn't stop 1:35:48.720 --> 1:35:51.519 what's happening in that country or that country or that country. 1:35:51.920 --> 1:35:54.800 So I'm for me. I do think there needs to 1:35:54.840 --> 1:35:58.240 be awareness and regulation and consciousness. I think you have 1:35:58.280 --> 1:36:02.799 to be very careful of forecasting too far in the future. Instead, 1:36:02.840 --> 1:36:05.000 you have to be identifying where the issues are and 1:36:05.040 --> 1:36:05.960 being responsible. 1:36:06.680 --> 1:36:11.680 Okay, drilling down on something you just said. You essentially 1:36:12.960 --> 1:36:17.519 control a social network that is a virtual world. The 1:36:17.560 --> 1:36:20.000 internet is the best thing that ever happened to me. 1:36:20.720 --> 1:36:22.720 If you read the New York Times, which is the 1:36:22.720 --> 1:36:27.640 best we've got. They have reporters everywhere, but imperfect. You 1:36:27.760 --> 1:36:31.200 get a lot of self satisfied baby boomers. Put the 1:36:31.360 --> 1:36:35.479 phone down. I'm getting a flip phone. We have the 1:36:35.560 --> 1:36:39.799 Australia with the regulation where a certain age cannot be 1:36:40.040 --> 1:36:43.800 on the Internet now, not beyond social networks. There's been 1:36:43.840 --> 1:36:48.160 no study that's proven a deleterious effect. But this is 1:36:48.240 --> 1:36:50.800 literally your business. So what's your take? 1:36:53.560 --> 1:36:59.760 So lots of thoughts here. Let me talk about my 1:37:00.120 --> 1:37:05.160 personal belief. Okay, my personal belief. As you're growing up, 1:37:09.120 --> 1:37:11.719 the phone can be a challenging object when you're eleven, twelve, 1:37:11.760 --> 1:37:15.639 and thirteen. I avoided my kids having phones at that age. Okay, 1:37:16.840 --> 1:37:20.120 I picked my phone up more than I'd like. Okay, 1:37:20.439 --> 1:37:23.640 I'm an adult. I know that I do think there 1:37:23.680 --> 1:37:26.680 are a lot of challenges in high school and all that, 1:37:27.120 --> 1:37:31.599 and so with my kids, I wanted them to be 1:37:31.640 --> 1:37:34.519 doing more interacting. So like my daughter's first phone, was 1:37:34.520 --> 1:37:36.920 a flip phone because I felt like that was the 1:37:37.000 --> 1:37:39.000 right thing. And I still feel like that is the 1:37:39.040 --> 1:37:41.080 right thing, because I do believe a lot's happening when 1:37:41.080 --> 1:37:45.360 you're thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen just going to school in 1:37:45.400 --> 1:37:48.479 a thousand person setting. That's not the way we evolved. 1:37:48.880 --> 1:37:51.639 When you think of our evolution biologically, were the same 1:37:51.680 --> 1:37:54.080 as the people ten thousand years ago, right, In terms 1:37:54.080 --> 1:37:56.880 of our genetics, we're not that different. Nobody grew up 1:37:56.920 --> 1:38:01.320 with one thousand classmates ten thousand years ago, right. They 1:38:01.439 --> 1:38:04.559 use mixed age, they were right, because it's in some 1:38:04.640 --> 1:38:07.559 type of tribe or clothes or whatever, and you're exposed 1:38:07.600 --> 1:38:09.519 to all sorts of things. So I think we already 1:38:09.600 --> 1:38:13.599 have this artificial environment where you pack all these kids 1:38:13.600 --> 1:38:16.920 of the same age together because it's efficient to teach, 1:38:17.479 --> 1:38:20.320 and then you throw in a phone. So now there's 1:38:20.360 --> 1:38:22.920 this kind of thing that you're always turning to and 1:38:22.960 --> 1:38:25.360 always putting in your hand, and that there's all sorts 1:38:25.360 --> 1:38:27.200 of stuff. So this isn't just about the phone, this 1:38:27.280 --> 1:38:29.800 is about other things. In terms of that, I think 1:38:29.840 --> 1:38:34.559 it's not optimal. So personally, I am a supporter of 1:38:34.800 --> 1:38:37.120 having control, but I also am a big believer in 1:38:37.160 --> 1:38:39.439 parents having choice. You know, I'm telling you my own 1:38:39.479 --> 1:38:43.120 personal my own personal choice as a parent. Okay, So 1:38:43.160 --> 1:38:45.880 I think there are some truths in the concerns that 1:38:46.240 --> 1:38:48.360 people are voicing there, But as you said, I can't 1:38:48.439 --> 1:38:51.120 tell you emphatically. I know that for sure it's a 1:38:51.120 --> 1:38:55.280 difficult question, but I make that personal choice. I do 1:38:55.360 --> 1:39:01.439 think that sometimes part of what's happening is there is 1:39:04.240 --> 1:39:10.520 there is this I will call demonization of different businesses. 1:39:11.120 --> 1:39:13.240 Big tech is doing this, Big tech is doing this, 1:39:14.240 --> 1:39:19.160 and really it's a vacuum where unfortunately we haven't created 1:39:19.600 --> 1:39:24.360 regulations and guidelines that we think are appropriate to in 1:39:24.720 --> 1:39:28.320 the world that we live in. Because in general, the 1:39:28.439 --> 1:39:31.640 very nature of capitalism is if this party doesn't do it, 1:39:31.680 --> 1:39:33.880 then this party will do it, right, That is the nature. 1:39:33.960 --> 1:39:38.160 So suppose, you know, Facebook decided Instagram wasn't a good 1:39:38.200 --> 1:39:42.120 thing for the world for whatever reason, Well, then someone 1:39:42.160 --> 1:39:43.839 would have invented TikTok even sooner. 1:39:44.360 --> 1:39:44.479 Right. 1:39:44.520 --> 1:39:46.800 And then suppose TikTok decided it was, well, someone else 1:39:46.800 --> 1:39:50.759 would invent something right that would take its place. Okay, 1:39:51.000 --> 1:39:53.320 So whatever the challenges are, of which I think there 1:39:53.320 --> 1:39:56.599 are challenges, I think there's lots of challenges in how 1:39:56.680 --> 1:39:58.719 social media. You know, how we talked about the system 1:39:58.760 --> 1:40:00.960 one and system two brain. Okay, I think there are 1:40:00.960 --> 1:40:04.240 lots of challenges where it creates these micro thought groups 1:40:04.640 --> 1:40:07.960 where in general this one part I didn't say one 1:40:07.960 --> 1:40:10.880 with the system one is system to brain. How does 1:40:10.920 --> 1:40:13.040 your system one brain come up with the answer it 1:40:13.080 --> 1:40:19.960 gives you. Usually it's what other people they know and 1:40:20.080 --> 1:40:24.439 trust believe. That's how the system one brain comes up 1:40:24.479 --> 1:40:26.719 with the answer. So if you go back in time, 1:40:27.479 --> 1:40:29.559 if you hear a rustling in the in the in 1:40:29.600 --> 1:40:34.439 the in the bushes, and your brain says, you know, run, 1:40:34.479 --> 1:40:39.280 that could be a tiger. Okay, it's a it's a reaction, right, 1:40:39.320 --> 1:40:41.280 And why do you believe that? That's because the people 1:40:41.320 --> 1:40:43.519 that you live with says, oh, there's a rustling, move 1:40:43.560 --> 1:40:45.920 there's a tiger. You believe it because the people you 1:40:45.960 --> 1:40:49.320 spend time with believe it. And that's how we're evolved 1:40:49.320 --> 1:40:51.800 as social animals is we believe things because the people 1:40:51.840 --> 1:40:53.759 we spend time believe things, and that's how we program 1:40:53.800 --> 1:40:56.240 our system one brain. Well, of course, if all you're 1:40:56.280 --> 1:40:58.280 talking to are people with the same views, then it 1:40:58.360 --> 1:41:02.920 programs are system one to think homogeneously about it. Okay, 1:41:03.080 --> 1:41:05.040 So I think there are all these challenges that we have, 1:41:06.720 --> 1:41:10.240 but that doesn't mean the tech companies are to blame 1:41:10.280 --> 1:41:13.200 for it, algorithms to blame for it. All. An algorithm 1:41:13.240 --> 1:41:15.320 is trying to find you something that doesn't bore you 1:41:16.439 --> 1:41:18.080 to They send we have problems. We have to deal 1:41:18.120 --> 1:41:20.360 with those problems and figure out how to handle those problems, 1:41:20.439 --> 1:41:22.800 not blame it on the tech companies. 1:41:23.880 --> 1:41:27.439 Just because you went there twice. Now we live in 1:41:27.479 --> 1:41:32.360 a divided country. Everyone gets news from their own source. 1:41:34.439 --> 1:41:37.880 Is there any hope? And the hope would come in 1:41:37.920 --> 1:41:40.360 a number of levels that we could agree on certain 1:41:40.520 --> 1:41:43.519 facts that we can move forward or is it just 1:41:43.640 --> 1:41:46.200 going to become a tower of Babel society. 1:41:46.840 --> 1:41:49.559 I can't tell you what the answer is, but I'm 1:41:49.640 --> 1:41:58.960 actually a deep believer in the unending path towards greater 1:41:59.040 --> 1:42:04.920 compassion and you know, awareness and enlightenment, and so do 1:42:05.040 --> 1:42:08.559 I have hope. There's a great song. Don't are you 1:42:08.560 --> 1:42:12.760 familiar with Emily Scott Robinson? Okay, you she check her out. 1:42:12.800 --> 1:42:17.800 She's on Oh Boy Records. But but she has a song, 1:42:18.400 --> 1:42:20.920 a Time of Flowers, and she just came out of 1:42:20.920 --> 1:42:24.879 a new album that she just recorded, and she actually 1:42:24.920 --> 1:42:30.919 wrote it during COVID, But it's particularly appropriate now because 1:42:31.600 --> 1:42:34.439 it talks about, you know, even in hard times, there 1:42:34.479 --> 1:42:38.080 comes a time for flowers, okay, and that the flowers 1:42:38.080 --> 1:42:41.800 will bloom. And so I guess I am at my 1:42:42.000 --> 1:42:46.320 very base even as people always like to disparage about 1:42:46.320 --> 1:42:49.240 where the world is and say it's hopeless, And as 1:42:49.240 --> 1:42:52.560 you go back in time, I'm sure people were disparaged 1:42:52.600 --> 1:42:54.479 about the world and the way it was during World 1:42:54.520 --> 1:42:57.480 War Two and during all sorts of during the Great Depression, 1:42:57.640 --> 1:43:01.559 during all sorts of things, right, And so I'm a 1:43:01.600 --> 1:43:06.200 big believer that, yeah, we'll work through it. 1:43:14.320 --> 1:43:17.519 What did we do? Politics have a presence on Twitch. 1:43:20.680 --> 1:43:25.280 Uh, So it is. It is part of Twitch, Okay, 1:43:26.080 --> 1:43:29.200 I wouldn't say it is. And there are a number 1:43:29.240 --> 1:43:32.840 of creators that are you know, noteworthy in terms of 1:43:32.840 --> 1:43:37.160 politics and talking about it. It's not you know, a 1:43:37.240 --> 1:43:39.799 huge percentage of Twitch. I do think it'll be interesting 1:43:39.880 --> 1:43:44.040 as the elections come up about when more politicians are 1:43:44.080 --> 1:43:46.880 gonna be leaning into using Twitch to sort of get 1:43:46.920 --> 1:43:50.360 their message out and engage. So it's a part, but 1:43:50.400 --> 1:43:55.200 I wouldn't say it's you know, a dominant portion of twitch. 1:43:55.600 --> 1:43:59.320 Okay, let's talk about this career. You went to work 1:43:59.360 --> 1:44:02.840 for NASA. Why nasaid? How was that experience? 1:44:04.520 --> 1:44:07.040 The way I describe it is, I've been one of 1:44:07.040 --> 1:44:09.000 the I'm a big believer that so many people and 1:44:09.040 --> 1:44:11.360 I'm one of them they just we stare at our 1:44:11.400 --> 1:44:13.880 feet and take two steps forward with no idea where 1:44:13.880 --> 1:44:16.760 we're going. Okay, And I very much have lived my 1:44:16.840 --> 1:44:19.200 life making choices about things I want to do. So 1:44:19.920 --> 1:44:21.680 I got out of getting my PhD. And when I 1:44:21.680 --> 1:44:27.040 was getting my PhD, everyone told me, oh, you should 1:44:27.040 --> 1:44:29.880 be a researcher, because of course all my professors were researchers. 1:44:30.040 --> 1:44:31.800 And I knew I didn't want to go to academia. 1:44:31.840 --> 1:44:33.439 So I said, oh, but I want to be a researcher. 1:44:33.520 --> 1:44:38.400 So I looked at going to Microsoft, NASA, ISI, SRI 1:44:38.960 --> 1:44:42.880 Bell Labs. Those were the you know, research things at 1:44:42.880 --> 1:44:45.280 that time. I ended up choosing NASA. At the time, 1:44:45.320 --> 1:44:47.639 it was one of the better places to go for AI. 1:44:48.920 --> 1:44:50.519 When I got there and I was thinking, oh, I 1:44:50.560 --> 1:44:53.800 want to be a researcher. Within about four months I 1:44:53.840 --> 1:44:56.280 realized a big part of being a researcher is publishing 1:44:56.320 --> 1:44:59.280 papers and I realized I don't care about publishing papers. 1:44:59.320 --> 1:45:02.519 I liked SA problems. So I had to unlearn all 1:45:02.520 --> 1:45:04.800 this stuff that I learned in school and realized, no, 1:45:04.880 --> 1:45:07.320 I'm really a problem solved. And then I started managing. 1:45:07.360 --> 1:45:10.559 Within literally six months of getting to NASA. I went 1:45:10.600 --> 1:45:13.639 from kind of being an IC and I was leading 1:45:13.640 --> 1:45:16.719 a group of like two hundred and seventy people within 1:45:16.800 --> 1:45:18.800 three years of having shown up at the door at 1:45:18.880 --> 1:45:22.439 NASA after my PhD. And so it's a great time 1:45:22.439 --> 1:45:25.720 for me. I loved working at NASA. Really, what it 1:45:25.800 --> 1:45:27.600 was is I found out more about who I was 1:45:27.640 --> 1:45:30.639 and how much I liked to solve problems, more so 1:45:30.760 --> 1:45:33.040 than just getting rooted in the technology. 1:45:33.200 --> 1:45:35.000 So how get up switching to Google? 1:45:36.920 --> 1:45:41.839 So NASA AMES is in a Silicon valley. It's actually 1:45:42.040 --> 1:45:46.200 just across a canal from Google, and it was at 1:45:46.240 --> 1:45:48.880 a time when Google was growing. The guy who's one 1:45:48.920 --> 1:45:51.559 of the positions I took two ago, I got that 1:45:51.600 --> 1:45:53.639 one position, I went up another level. He had gone 1:45:53.640 --> 1:45:56.760 over to Google. And so like three years before I left, 1:45:56.800 --> 1:45:58.960 I thought about going to Google, and I knew I 1:45:59.000 --> 1:46:01.360 wanted to move on from now. I loved NASA, but 1:46:01.760 --> 1:46:04.720 I didn't grow up a space, you know, like a 1:46:04.800 --> 1:46:06.840 guy dream about space. As a computer science I was 1:46:06.880 --> 1:46:09.960 in Silicon Valley, so I was like, Okay, I've done 1:46:10.000 --> 1:46:12.400 a lot at NASA. I want to go into Silicon Valley. 1:46:12.439 --> 1:46:16.840 And Google was sort of a very natural choice. It 1:46:16.880 --> 1:46:19.160 took a while to make sure I got the position 1:46:19.280 --> 1:46:23.280 and all that, but then it was great going over 1:46:23.280 --> 1:46:23.719 to Google. 1:46:24.040 --> 1:46:25.479 And so why'd you leave Google? 1:46:27.400 --> 1:46:30.080 After I've been there about nine years? A lot of 1:46:30.080 --> 1:46:32.240 people stay at Google and they just stay there forever. 1:46:32.880 --> 1:46:36.800 And Google's very generous and how they compensate you and 1:46:36.840 --> 1:46:39.880 all that, and I reflected, and part of it is 1:46:39.920 --> 1:46:44.120 the way I've described it was, I have I've got 1:46:44.160 --> 1:46:46.400 to live in Rome during the Renaissance when you think 1:46:46.439 --> 1:46:49.880 of Silicon Valley in this time period. But there was 1:46:49.920 --> 1:46:53.920 a lot besides the Sistine Chapel during the Renaissance, and 1:46:54.080 --> 1:46:56.040 I see all this going on, and I felt like, 1:46:56.120 --> 1:46:58.639 if I ended my career having spent my whole career 1:46:58.680 --> 1:47:01.640 at Google, how would I feel about it? And I 1:47:01.640 --> 1:47:03.519 do think a lot of people get comfortable at Google. 1:47:04.320 --> 1:47:08.160 And I felt like and I was compensated well, and 1:47:08.200 --> 1:47:11.519 I felt like, no, but I can do other things. 1:47:11.560 --> 1:47:13.800 I don't need to stay at Google, and so I 1:47:14.040 --> 1:47:15.760 just felt that, but a lot of people don't make 1:47:15.800 --> 1:47:17.920 that choice, and I was like, I just don't want 1:47:17.960 --> 1:47:19.479 to spend my whole career at Google. So I went 1:47:19.479 --> 1:47:23.360 to a startup. The startup, next Door, ended up doing okay, 1:47:23.520 --> 1:47:25.800 but not like great. A lot of some people know it, 1:47:27.000 --> 1:47:29.879 and then I'll jump Interestingly, when I came to Twitch, 1:47:30.320 --> 1:47:33.200 I had left next Doors taking some time off. They 1:47:33.240 --> 1:47:36.280 interviewed me and they offered me the job, and I 1:47:36.320 --> 1:47:40.599 turned it down because I said, oh Twitch. I hadn't 1:47:40.640 --> 1:47:42.559 used Twitch a lot. I said, oh, Twitch is a 1:47:42.560 --> 1:47:45.400 gaming platform. I'm not a gamer. I don't think that's 1:47:45.439 --> 1:47:48.240 right for me. And then they came back four months 1:47:48.320 --> 1:47:50.000 later and said, no, Dan, we really think you're the 1:47:50.080 --> 1:47:53.559 right person for the job. And so I thought about 1:47:53.600 --> 1:47:55.840 it and I realized where I've been happiest in life 1:47:56.600 --> 1:48:01.040 is when I work with people I like, and I 1:48:01.160 --> 1:48:02.560 liked the people I was going to work with, so 1:48:02.600 --> 1:48:05.479 I said yes. And then it's only afterwards that I 1:48:05.560 --> 1:48:07.880 really realized that Twitch was a perfect fit. It was 1:48:08.000 --> 1:48:11.320 just happenstance that even though I wasn't a gamer, I 1:48:11.360 --> 1:48:14.000 only after being there realized, oh, Twitch is really about 1:48:14.000 --> 1:48:17.960 community and about creatives, and I was a creative and 1:48:18.000 --> 1:48:19.840 I'd done a lot in community, so it ended up 1:48:19.880 --> 1:48:21.800 being this sort of match made in heaven. 1:48:22.280 --> 1:48:28.000 Okay. Silicon Valley is the story of founders. There were 1:48:28.280 --> 1:48:35.440 you know, dropouts like Bill Gates. There are people completely uneducated, 1:48:35.520 --> 1:48:38.880 really liked Steve jobs. But they're all these and then 1:48:38.920 --> 1:48:43.679 you have the Google twins at Stanford, you were working 1:48:43.800 --> 1:48:48.200 for people. Did you ever say, wait a second, all 1:48:48.240 --> 1:48:50.479 these other people starting companies, I want to start a 1:48:50.520 --> 1:48:51.160 company too. 1:48:52.280 --> 1:48:56.160 Yeah, at times I'd have that thought, right, And then 1:48:57.240 --> 1:49:02.439 what I realized is so some of those people have 1:49:02.560 --> 1:49:06.640 demonstrated an ability to do it multiple times. Not many, 1:49:06.800 --> 1:49:11.080 not many, even the good ones. A huge part is 1:49:11.120 --> 1:49:13.960 being in the right place at the right time. Okay, 1:49:15.720 --> 1:49:20.400 And I think I realized, well, I love the idea 1:49:20.439 --> 1:49:22.200 of starting something, and maybe I will be in the 1:49:22.240 --> 1:49:25.760 right place at the right time. I also was really good. 1:49:25.800 --> 1:49:29.040 It's taking something that already had some scale and coming 1:49:29.080 --> 1:49:32.080 in and approaching it with the same zeal and passion 1:49:32.080 --> 1:49:34.400 that a founder has. And to be honest, some of 1:49:34.400 --> 1:49:36.360 those people I don't think would have been good at it. 1:49:37.560 --> 1:49:39.519 In other words, they many of the people you talked 1:49:39.560 --> 1:49:42.240 about you couldn't have brought into Twitch when I was 1:49:42.240 --> 1:49:45.839 brought into Twitch, where they could have had the impact 1:49:45.840 --> 1:49:48.000 that I had at that point of Twitch, like either 1:49:48.040 --> 1:49:50.600 they had to found something or they weren't going to 1:49:50.640 --> 1:49:53.160 be able to do it. I realized that, Look, no, 1:49:53.320 --> 1:49:56.200 I was really good at kind of taking something that 1:49:56.280 --> 1:49:59.560 already had some traction and working to scale it and 1:49:59.600 --> 1:50:01.800 make it better. So I certainly reflected on it. But 1:50:01.840 --> 1:50:04.840 whenever I was faced with that decision, I always kind 1:50:04.840 --> 1:50:06.519 of said, where can I have the biggest impact That 1:50:06.640 --> 1:50:08.840 I often went to something that already had some traction. 1:50:09.520 --> 1:50:13.200 Okay, you're working for NASA, you're working for the Space program. 1:50:13.200 --> 1:50:16.759 You can only make so much money. The people at Google, 1:50:16.960 --> 1:50:19.240 depending on when they got in, whether that job they 1:50:19.280 --> 1:50:23.479 made a shit ton of money. Whatever's going on at Twitch. 1:50:23.520 --> 1:50:26.880 It's owned by Amazon, the upside is only so high. 1:50:27.320 --> 1:50:29.839 How have you done financially over your career? 1:50:30.840 --> 1:50:33.479 Yeah? The way it's funny, a lot of people they say, oh, 1:50:33.520 --> 1:50:35.560 he's the owner of Twitch. Like I go around and 1:50:35.600 --> 1:50:38.080 people recognize me and they're oh, he's the owner of Twitch, 1:50:38.520 --> 1:50:41.120 and so they think I'm a gazillionaire now I'm doing fine. 1:50:41.160 --> 1:50:44.679 I'm quite comfortable, Okay, But I'm not the owner of Twitch. 1:50:44.720 --> 1:50:48.120 I didn't found Twitch. I wasn't at Google, you know, 1:50:48.200 --> 1:50:52.040 pre IPI. Okay. But the way I describe it is, 1:50:52.080 --> 1:50:57.320 I think the tech industry people, we all, well all 1:50:57.360 --> 1:51:00.200 of us in the tech industry, get paid more than 1:51:00.280 --> 1:51:03.080 we deserve. We think we deserve so much more because 1:51:03.080 --> 1:51:05.120 we see somebody who is in the right place at 1:51:05.120 --> 1:51:08.760 the right time. And what I often say is this 1:51:08.800 --> 1:51:10.519 is a challenge. When you live in the area like 1:51:10.560 --> 1:51:13.559 the Bay Area, you think of your intellect and ability, 1:51:13.800 --> 1:51:16.439 and then you see other people there and you see 1:51:16.439 --> 1:51:18.080 ones that you look at and you say, well, wait, 1:51:18.160 --> 1:51:21.120 I'm better than them, and they happen to be somewhere, 1:51:21.160 --> 1:51:24.120 and so they're a gazillionaire, right, and so you feel 1:51:24.120 --> 1:51:26.960 like I deserve more. And so for the way I 1:51:27.000 --> 1:51:29.360 say it is for everyone that you see above you 1:51:29.479 --> 1:51:32.320 in terms of how much they've benefited, that you think 1:51:32.360 --> 1:51:34.840 you're just as good as there are probably ten people 1:51:34.840 --> 1:51:37.320 below you that are every bit as good as you, 1:51:37.439 --> 1:51:39.599 that did not benefit as much as you did. You 1:51:39.680 --> 1:51:42.879 just don't see those ten people and how good they are. Okay, 1:51:43.439 --> 1:51:47.880 So I've been incredibly blessed, right, And I am you know, 1:51:47.960 --> 1:51:51.960 I'm comfortable, my kids, you know, benefited, you know in 1:51:52.000 --> 1:51:55.000 terms of college and all that. I'm not a gazillionaire, 1:51:55.000 --> 1:51:57.839 but I don't care about being a gazillionaire. I'm still 1:51:58.000 --> 1:52:01.439 doing quite well and I have more than what I 1:52:01.560 --> 1:52:04.559 deserve in this world, as I think most folks that 1:52:04.680 --> 1:52:07.320 have realized some success in the tech industry end up having. 1:52:07.760 --> 1:52:15.600 Okay, Twitch is owned by Amazon. Amazon's culture historically is 1:52:16.080 --> 1:52:20.840 very lean financially. The layoffs you had to lay off 1:52:20.880 --> 1:52:25.200 some people. That does happen at big corporations. What are 1:52:25.200 --> 1:52:28.240 the advantages and disadvantages being owned by Amazon? 1:52:30.640 --> 1:52:37.120 So I think Amazon has been great for ensuring Twitch 1:52:37.200 --> 1:52:40.080 got to where we are. It took a fair amount 1:52:40.080 --> 1:52:43.000 of investment, not just from once they bought us, but 1:52:43.080 --> 1:52:46.519 to help Twitch grow Okay, and Amazon has been an 1:52:46.600 --> 1:52:52.719 extremely patient and supportive owner that allowed us to continue 1:52:52.720 --> 1:52:56.200 to invest and keep growing. Okay. So I don't know 1:52:57.560 --> 1:53:02.040 if Twitch could have gotten to where we are without 1:53:02.200 --> 1:53:07.840 someone like Amazon having been there. Okay. It is the fact. 1:53:07.960 --> 1:53:15.559 My view is so far in terms of Amazon pushing 1:53:15.680 --> 1:53:18.160 us in terms of how we run the business. I'm 1:53:18.160 --> 1:53:20.200 supportive of it because the way I describe it is 1:53:20.880 --> 1:53:23.240 I have a responsibility to make sure Twitch is here 1:53:23.280 --> 1:53:25.360 twenty years from now, thirty years from now, forty years 1:53:25.400 --> 1:53:29.200 from now, when somebody makes streaming their life. Twitch is 1:53:29.240 --> 1:53:31.320 different than all the other platforms. If we went away, 1:53:31.760 --> 1:53:34.160 these folks wouldn't necessarily just go to the other platforms 1:53:34.200 --> 1:53:36.120 and have the same life they lived lead today. It's 1:53:36.200 --> 1:53:40.439 very unique. And you know, they've been streaming now for 1:53:40.479 --> 1:53:43.240 five ten years, they have two kids. If they had 1:53:43.240 --> 1:53:45.320 to go get another job, the resume is like, what 1:53:45.360 --> 1:53:47.240 do you mean you've been streaming for seven years? Why 1:53:47.280 --> 1:53:50.120 would I hire you? Okay, So I have an obligation 1:53:50.280 --> 1:53:53.360 to make sure they like we're still here twenty thirty, 1:53:53.360 --> 1:53:55.559 forty years from now, which means I need to run 1:53:55.600 --> 1:54:00.760 this business so that it's sustainable. And Amazon's been very supportive, 1:54:01.160 --> 1:54:03.479 and so sometimes you have to make tough decisions. You know, 1:54:03.479 --> 1:54:06.880 when we had to make layoffs, we'd gotten bigger than 1:54:06.920 --> 1:54:09.639 we needed to be, And I do think that's happened 1:54:09.640 --> 1:54:11.920 in a lot of tech industry where people just think, 1:54:12.760 --> 1:54:15.600 you know, get bigger, get bigger, get bigger, and you 1:54:15.640 --> 1:54:17.920 don't need to be bigger. So I feel really good 1:54:17.960 --> 1:54:20.599 about where we are today. I feel we've shown that 1:54:20.680 --> 1:54:24.000 it's a sustainable business if you will, that our business works, 1:54:24.640 --> 1:54:27.120 and so I feel very good about, you know, the 1:54:27.160 --> 1:54:30.320 support we've had from Amazon, and I don't think there 1:54:30.360 --> 1:54:33.600 are a lot of you know, these downsides that we've had. 1:54:34.120 --> 1:54:36.400 Are you still married to the mother of your children? 1:54:37.160 --> 1:54:39.959 I am. I am still with her and everything. 1:54:40.120 --> 1:54:43.160 This is a business that usually requires very long hours. 1:54:43.200 --> 1:54:44.800 How do you sustain a marriage. 1:54:46.440 --> 1:54:51.840 Well, Luckily, I'm someone who aside from my and it's 1:54:51.880 --> 1:54:53.160 not just the marriage kids. So I have a kid 1:54:53.200 --> 1:54:55.840 who's twenty seven and one who's twenty four. My twenty 1:54:55.840 --> 1:54:59.640 seven year old has a has a daughter. So I'm 1:54:59.640 --> 1:55:02.600 a grandm father. I just spent the weekend. I took 1:55:02.640 --> 1:55:05.920 care of my grand daughter from ten to five on Saturday, 1:55:05.960 --> 1:55:09.280 and then from you know, nine to twelve. So I'm 1:55:09.320 --> 1:55:11.160 someone who spent a lot of time with my kids. 1:55:11.200 --> 1:55:16.360 They both live near me now, and so I'd say 1:55:16.360 --> 1:55:19.720 the biggest thing is I don't push to create all 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:22.560 this time that's just for me. I don't have like 1:55:22.920 --> 1:55:26.560 boys weekends. I don't go off golfing all day Saturday 1:55:26.600 --> 1:55:29.880 and Sunday or something like that. You know when in 1:55:30.000 --> 1:55:33.200 terms of I work hard, I exercise, and I spend 1:55:33.240 --> 1:55:36.040 time with my family. Those are basically the three things 1:55:36.040 --> 1:55:38.160 that I do, and there's enough time in the day 1:55:38.160 --> 1:55:41.400 for all three. There's probably enough, not enough time in 1:55:41.440 --> 1:55:43.560 the day if I wanted to do all these other things, 1:55:43.960 --> 1:55:45.040 you know, just for myself. 1:55:45.360 --> 1:55:50.800 Okay, when you're in the tech bubble and you're talking 1:55:50.880 --> 1:55:55.720 about things, people will be able to understand what you say, cogitate, 1:55:55.800 --> 1:56:00.200 agree or disagree. But if you're at a pt A 1:56:00.440 --> 1:56:06.880 meeting or something, do you feel you're obviously intelligent, educated 1:56:07.880 --> 1:56:10.440 and aware of what's going on? I mean, do you 1:56:10.600 --> 1:56:15.280 find that it's hard to have satisfying conversations? 1:56:15.320 --> 1:56:22.560 Not at all, like literally not at all interesting. I 1:56:22.640 --> 1:56:28.440 think it comes to this issue of empathy. I was 1:56:28.480 --> 1:56:32.160 actually at a dinner last night with the friend of 1:56:32.240 --> 1:56:36.080 my daughters who had a reveal. And I live in 1:56:36.120 --> 1:56:38.600 White Salmon, Washington, which is a small town. It's an 1:56:38.600 --> 1:56:42.240 hour east of Portland. You know, the way I describe 1:56:42.280 --> 1:56:47.000 White Salmon as both talking about the population. It's a 1:56:47.120 --> 1:56:52.000 no safe way, no Starbucks, no McDonald's town. Okay, but 1:56:52.320 --> 1:56:55.880 one grocery store town in you know, seven restaurants Okay. 1:56:55.920 --> 1:56:58.320 So like when I describe it that way, you get 1:56:58.320 --> 1:57:00.480 a sense of or across the river from Hoodry, which 1:57:00.520 --> 1:57:04.280 is a to McDonald's town and a one Safeway town. 1:57:04.320 --> 1:57:06.240 And I use that because I think when now and 1:57:06.320 --> 1:57:08.240 one Walmart town, where I describe it like that, you 1:57:08.320 --> 1:57:09.960 kind of get a sense for the size of the town. 1:57:10.320 --> 1:57:12.280 And so these are folks doing all sorts of things 1:57:12.280 --> 1:57:16.240 in this region, right, and I like great conversations. Some 1:57:16.280 --> 1:57:18.560 of them are musicians. Interestingly, a number of one of 1:57:18.600 --> 1:57:20.160 them is someone who tried to be a musician for 1:57:20.160 --> 1:57:24.200 a while still writes music and records. My daughter's a 1:57:24.240 --> 1:57:29.840 singer songwriter. And so I just think that the reason 1:57:29.880 --> 1:57:32.640 people get stuck in that is because they're not very 1:57:32.640 --> 1:57:35.760 empathetic of different ways of living their life, and they 1:57:35.800 --> 1:57:40.000 think everything is living in this tech bubble, which is 1:57:40.000 --> 1:57:40.920 not what life's about. 1:57:42.000 --> 1:57:44.520 You mentioned Hood River. Are you a windsurfer? 1:57:45.880 --> 1:57:48.560 I'm a kayaker, Okay, So for those for your listeners 1:57:48.600 --> 1:57:51.840 that don't know, the beauty of this area is Hood 1:57:51.920 --> 1:57:54.200 River and the Columbia River which is between Hood River 1:57:54.240 --> 1:57:58.120 and White Salmon. In the nineties, all the windsurfers and 1:57:58.240 --> 1:58:01.480 kite borders came in the two thousand, all the kayakers 1:58:01.480 --> 1:58:05.839 came Okay, and I came here because I enjoyed whitewater kayaking. 1:58:05.880 --> 1:58:09.080 My son's are really good white water kayaking. And I 1:58:09.120 --> 1:58:12.800 love the area because it has both, like the all 1:58:12.840 --> 1:58:16.440 these kind of athletic folks came through, but it also 1:58:16.720 --> 1:58:19.320 there's a town close to Trout Lake where the hippies 1:58:19.360 --> 1:58:22.280 came in the sixties, and then you have the logging, 1:58:22.360 --> 1:58:25.240 and so it's really this blend. It's reasonably progressive, but 1:58:25.320 --> 1:58:29.879 not overly progressive. So I kind of like the blend. 1:58:30.880 --> 1:58:33.160 And why do you live there? And how long have 1:58:33.240 --> 1:58:33.880 you lived there? 1:58:35.160 --> 1:58:38.280 I lived there about three years. And the story is 1:58:39.360 --> 1:58:41.720 raised the kids in the Bay Area lived in Los Altos. 1:58:42.960 --> 1:58:44.600 That's where I was, That's where I first started working. 1:58:44.960 --> 1:58:48.240 When COVID hit. I realized the kids were never going 1:58:48.320 --> 1:58:49.880 to move back to the Bay Area because they're not 1:58:49.960 --> 1:58:53.600 into tech. They're both very much into outdoors and that 1:58:53.640 --> 1:58:55.760 sort of thing, and so I had this idea of 1:58:55.760 --> 1:58:59.720 buying land with enough property, with enough land that maybe 1:58:59.760 --> 1:59:02.360 one day they could build the are hopefully encouraged they 1:59:02.360 --> 1:59:03.960 would both have a son and daughter. I wanted them 1:59:04.000 --> 1:59:05.680 both to live in the same area. So that way 1:59:05.920 --> 1:59:08.720 their kids would be friends. Very first place we were 1:59:08.760 --> 1:59:11.000 looking at we were up here kayaking. We went to 1:59:11.000 --> 1:59:12.520 look at a place I thought it would take me 1:59:12.560 --> 1:59:16.120 two years to find something that. It was a great house. 1:59:16.160 --> 1:59:17.960 It was perfect. It was right on this river, the 1:59:17.960 --> 1:59:21.800 White Salmon River, twelve acres. So I decided to move 1:59:21.880 --> 1:59:24.400 up here. Both the kids live up here now, so 1:59:24.640 --> 1:59:28.480 if you will, it worked. They both moved the area. 1:59:29.000 --> 1:59:32.560 It's an hour from the Portland airport, so I could 1:59:32.600 --> 1:59:36.200 basically get most anywhere without having to I was an 1:59:36.240 --> 1:59:38.040 hour from the airport in the Bay Area, so I 1:59:38.080 --> 1:59:40.400 travel Fairmount for work. I'm down in LA. I'm down 1:59:40.400 --> 1:59:42.600 in the Bay Area about you know, two weeks of 1:59:42.600 --> 1:59:46.600 the year, I'm somewhere traveling. And I like a lot 1:59:46.600 --> 1:59:49.040 of outdoor stuff in terms of hiking and all that stuff, 1:59:49.680 --> 1:59:52.880 biking and running, and so it's ended up being you know, 1:59:53.160 --> 1:59:54.120 it's end up being perfect. 1:59:54.600 --> 1:59:56.720 Okay, Dan, I think we've come to the end of 1:59:56.760 --> 1:59:59.760 the feeling we've known. I want to thank you for 2:00:00.000 --> 2:00:02.160 making all this time with my audience. You've been a 2:00:02.200 --> 2:00:05.280 great guest, fascinating and hopefully people will listen to this 2:00:05.640 --> 2:00:06.800 and be hip to twitch. 2:00:07.600 --> 2:00:10.280 All right, well, I appreciate you taking time, Bob, and 2:00:10.520 --> 2:00:13.520 it was lots of fun and for I guess for 2:00:13.560 --> 2:00:16.760 those people that are listening. If there are any musicians 2:00:16.760 --> 2:00:20.240 that are listening right, feel free to reach out to 2:00:20.280 --> 2:00:22.720 me on social media or something like that. If you're 2:00:22.760 --> 2:00:24.280 a musician and you want to get we have a 2:00:24.320 --> 2:00:27.520 team to help you and you can find me on 2:00:27.600 --> 2:00:31.400 various different social media. I shall say it's DJ Clancy's 2:00:31.480 --> 2:00:34.040 very confusing, but reach out to me and I'll try 2:00:34.040 --> 2:00:36.960 to connect you with the right people on our. 2:00:38.240 --> 2:00:41.520 Well that's quite an offer, so thanks Dan. Till next time. 2:00:42.040 --> 2:00:43.240 This is bob Lefs