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Speaker 1: Welcome, Welcome, Welcome back to Bob Website's podcast. My guest

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Speaker 1: today is Dan Plants Ceio with Twitch. Dan, what is Twitch?

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Speaker 2: Well, first of all, Bob, thanks for having me. What

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Speaker 2: is Twitch? So? Twitch is a live streaming service. I

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Speaker 2: expect a lot of people have heard of it that

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Speaker 2: are listening. But it's kind of like you two. But

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Speaker 2: we focus completely on live content, so we have tons

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Speaker 2: of user generated content where creators go there every day

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Speaker 2: to create content and live stream to their audience.

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Speaker 1: And how about archiving? Do you archive anything?

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Speaker 2: We have a brief period of archive, different policies, but

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Speaker 2: our focus is not on archive. In general, people use

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Speaker 2: other platforms this. Our focus is for the live, the

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Speaker 2: live experience, and the archive is really just uses catch up,

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Speaker 2: not as a long term archive.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's say someone is a total newbie, how do

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Speaker 1: they get started with Twitch?

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Speaker 2: So, Bob, you know what I was saying. As opposed

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Speaker 2: to a newbie how to get started with Twitch? I

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Speaker 2: think it might be useful to start with a newbie,

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Speaker 2: what do the viewers get from Twitch? Because if somebody

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Speaker 2: doesn't understand Twitch, I always find it's best to start

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Speaker 2: with what the audience cares about. And then talk about

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Speaker 2: how somebody starts creating with Twitch. Does that make sense?

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Speaker 1: Absolutely, go for it.

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Speaker 2: Okay, Okay, So let me describe where Twitch fits in

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Speaker 2: the law of the broader space of social media and

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Speaker 2: all that. And it's in this very unique spaces. It's

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Speaker 2: between it's long form content. In fact, one thing that

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Speaker 2: I think we'll talk about, Bob, I want to talk

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Speaker 2: some about long form content and music, which is the album,

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Speaker 2: which is long form content, and Twitch is long form content.

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Speaker 2: But it's also social. So in some ways it's an

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Speaker 2: alternative to sitting watching Netflix or Prime Video or something

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Speaker 2: like that, because people tend to sit and watch for

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Speaker 2: thirty an hour, two hours something like that, but you

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Speaker 2: do it with other people, which is a community. Okay.

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Speaker 2: And the magic what I've always said about Twitch is

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Speaker 2: you have some creator that you care about, that you're

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Speaker 2: interested in. If you're a musician, of course, musicians you're

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Speaker 2: interested in. And your audience of fans become a community

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Speaker 2: because they spend time watching you and they're just sort

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Speaker 2: of hanging out with you, and over time they get

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Speaker 2: to know each other. So an analogy that you will

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Speaker 2: appreciate because we're in a similar age demographic. What I say,

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Speaker 2: it's kind of like cheers, a place where everybody knows

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Speaker 2: your name, that you show up and everyone says hey,

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Speaker 2: nor as soon as you show up the Twitch, And

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Speaker 2: that's what happens on Twitch, and the way I describe

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Speaker 2: it is I think today in some ways social media

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Speaker 2: is now antisocial, whereas what happens with Twitch is you

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Speaker 2: really form a community bond from people that spend time

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Speaker 2: watching somebody they care about together while they're a.

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Speaker 1: Live Okay, that's the concept. Let's go back to my

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Speaker 1: earlier question. Let's say I'm a newbie. How do I

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Speaker 1: get started?

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Speaker 2: Okay, it's pretty simple. You just go to Twitch and

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Speaker 2: you create an account and you start streaming.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's buy for Katie here. Let's say you know,

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Speaker 1: I want to view other streams. How do I find out?

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Speaker 1: What is there?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So when you come to Twitch, you come we

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Speaker 2: allow you to search for creators. This is one thing

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Speaker 2: that's different, not different, but the way you should think

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Speaker 2: about Twitch. Most people they don't just come to twitch

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Speaker 2: without anyone that they want to see. Okay. That Usually

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Speaker 2: when you come to twitch, it's because you've already been

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Speaker 2: exposed to somebody that you know that you have an

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Speaker 2: affinity with. If you come to Twitch and you don't

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Speaker 2: know anything about anyone, to be honest, it's kind of

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Speaker 2: hard to get deep into something. Okay. The way I

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Speaker 2: describe it is suppose you're watching a movie or something

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Speaker 2: on Netflix and there's a TV series and you don't

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Speaker 2: know any of the actors, and none of your friends

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Speaker 2: told you it was good, so you have no reason

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Speaker 2: to think this is entertaining. It's kind of tough to

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Speaker 2: just watch a TV series, right or a movie. And

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Speaker 2: with Twitch, usually when you come to Twitch, there's a

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Speaker 2: Twitch streamer that you've heard about, that you've seen on

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Speaker 2: social media, a musician somebody, and you're coming to watch.

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Speaker 2: Then you're not coming to Twitch, you're coming for the creator, Okay.

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Speaker 1: In terms of the content, Twitch is famous for live

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Speaker 1: video gaming. What percentage of watching is video games?

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Speaker 2: Yeah? So now video games, it's about sixty five to

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Speaker 2: seventy percent of hours watched overall.

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Speaker 1: And what are the other thirty thirty five percent?

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Speaker 2: The other thirty thirty five percent is kind of what

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Speaker 2: ever you can think of. But I'll talk about where

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Speaker 2: the main stuff is. A big category is what's called

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Speaker 2: just chatting we're basically someone is just hanging out chatting

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Speaker 2: with their community, okay, talking to them, answering questions. But

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Speaker 2: then that quickly then pivots into they might be cooking,

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Speaker 2: they might be in music. There are a lot of

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Speaker 2: folks now and we'll talk more about this that might

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Speaker 2: be mixing music or creating music. Okay. A big thing

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Speaker 2: is what's called IRL or in real life stream, where

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Speaker 2: people go out into the real world with a camera

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Speaker 2: and they're doing something at an event somewhere and interacting

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Speaker 2: with people, but it goes all the way. There's a

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Speaker 2: pizza Princess g runs a pizza shop in Rochester, New York,

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Speaker 2: where basically there's a camera on there and she's running

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Speaker 2: her pizza shop talking to chat all the time. There's

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Speaker 2: a family in Spain that runs a restaurant on Twitch.

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Speaker 2: So people run their businesses on Twitch. People knit, people paint, birds,

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Speaker 2: people fish, So kind of anything you can think of,

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Speaker 2: there's probably somebody doing it live on Twitch.

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Speaker 1: Okay, let's use one of those restaurants as an example

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Speaker 1: how many people might be watching simultaneously.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So I will take the specific ones. There are

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Speaker 2: two specific ones I'll talk about. One is piece of

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Speaker 2: Princess g Another one is Royas del Gracias, which is

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Speaker 2: a family run restaurant about forty five minutes outside of Barcelona.

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Speaker 2: That is this wonderful mom and pop whose son got

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Speaker 2: it going and they run a very much of a

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Speaker 2: family Spanish restaurant. Both those channels they average about a

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Speaker 2: thousand what's called average concurrent viewers, which means at any

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Speaker 2: point in time, there might be a thousand people watching them,

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Speaker 2: and then over the course of a stream, if that

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Speaker 2: streams like you know, four or five hours, you probably

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Speaker 2: end up getting twenty or thirty thousand people will have

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Speaker 2: come by during that four or five hours and have

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Speaker 2: watched them.

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Speaker 1: Okay, obviously this is a let's use the restaurants as example.

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Speaker 1: These are established enterprises. How did they get started?

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Speaker 2: So often they just started to do it. In fact,

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Speaker 2: so many like what they just do is usually they

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Speaker 2: have some type of I'll take the destrasias. Their son

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Speaker 2: was someone who was kind of into social media and

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Speaker 2: thinking about social media, and they hit their son came

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Speaker 2: up with the idea. Okay. Oftentimes they combine this with

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Speaker 2: other forms of social media, so they'll be creating short

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Speaker 2: form content on YouTuber TikTok or Instagram and then they

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Speaker 2: also are streaming on Twitch and it's usually the combination

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Speaker 2: with helps grows them an audience.

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Speaker 1: Let's say I tune into this pizza parlor. What am

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Speaker 1: I gonna see?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, what you'll see is she's sitting there making pizza,

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Speaker 2: but she's reading Chat and she's interacting with Chat. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'll have people come on that she'll interact with Okay,

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Speaker 2: So a lot of times she's talking to Chat while

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Speaker 2: she's sitting there making pizza. And sometimes she'll a lot

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Speaker 2: of times they'll do fun stuff with Chat, Like sometimes

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Speaker 2: they'll do something where somebody comes in and they have

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Speaker 2: Chat choose the what what they're going to put on

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Speaker 2: a pizza? Right, they do something fun like that, so

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Speaker 2: the person gets that Chat creates a pizza. But the

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Speaker 2: biggest thing is you just see her and the other

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Speaker 2: folks in her workforce just living their life, but then

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Speaker 2: engaging with their audience while they're doing it.

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Speaker 1: What is the monetization for the restaurant.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we monetize by two ways. We monetize by ads,

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Speaker 2: but then we also monetize from money directly from the

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Speaker 2: audience and to put it in a context. About seventy

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Speaker 2: five percent of the money a creator will make is

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Speaker 2: going to come directly from their audience, okay, and that

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Speaker 2: comes primarily in two ways. One way is what's called

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Speaker 2: to subscription. So when I get a subscription to a channel,

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Speaker 2: it's not a subscription to access content as you normally

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Speaker 2: think of a subscription, because the content is free. The

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Speaker 2: subscription is a form of patronage. And when I subscribe

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Speaker 2: to a channel, first of all, I get no ads,

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Speaker 2: so it's ads free when I'm on the channel. But

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Speaker 2: then I also get status in the community because I

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Speaker 2: am supporting this creator, right, and then you also get access.

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Speaker 2: Creators all create what are emotes. These are really emoji

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Speaker 2: cons which they create a language for their community, and

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Speaker 2: they'll create one for happy, for sad, for cry, for whatever,

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Speaker 2: and when you subscribe, now you get to speak that language.

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Speaker 2: But the big reason for subscribing is really to support

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Speaker 2: the creator. And then I forget exactly how many years

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Speaker 2: ago we added this concept of a gift subscription, okay,

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Speaker 2: which was really important for Twitch. Over half of our

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Speaker 2: revenue from subscriptions come from gift subscriptions, and that's where

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Speaker 2: suppose I'm paying six months a month to subscribe to

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Speaker 2: you right now. But right now, I'll only give you

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Speaker 2: fifty bucks. Okay. What I do is that buy ten

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Speaker 2: gift subscriptions, and these are subscriptions to go out to

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Speaker 2: other members of the community. Okay, but really I'm the

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Speaker 2: money all goes to you, okay, but psychologically, I'm giving

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Speaker 2: the money to the community. And so the way I

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Speaker 2: kind of describe it is, suppose you're watching someone busk

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Speaker 2: and you go and drop five dollars in their hat,

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Speaker 2: and now everyone who's watching gets some candy or something. Right,

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Speaker 2: what happens is everyone in the community goes, oh, thanks

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Speaker 2: for the subscriptions, and they celebrate them. Okay, the creator

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Speaker 2: celebrates them. So it's this form of patronage and acknowledgment

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Speaker 2: which generates a meaningful amount of money for these people

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Speaker 2: that are creating content.

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Speaker 1: Okay. On a more granular level, something like, since we've

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Speaker 1: been talking about something like the restaurant, how many of

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Speaker 1: the people watching are subscribers?

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Speaker 2: It will probably be It varies a lot for different

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Speaker 2: sized channels, Okay, but I would probably say at any

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Speaker 2: given time, think of it as five to ten percent

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Speaker 2: or something like that. Ten percent maybe.

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Speaker 1: Let's say I am the creator.

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Speaker 3: A.

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Speaker 1: How do I establish the price point? B? Is it

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Speaker 1: like Patreon where you can have multiple price points or

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Speaker 1: you know something like that. How do I do that?

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so we go ahead and canonicalize the price points. Okay.

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Speaker 2: There's been a lot of discussion of whether or not

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Speaker 2: for different folks we should change that. But right now,

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Speaker 2: we actually have three levels of subscription. Tier one, which

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Speaker 2: is the default that most people get, Tier two, and

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Speaker 2: Tier three, and it's in US it's six dollars. I

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Speaker 2: think it's twelve dollars. I forget Tier two, and then

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Speaker 2: twenty five dollars okay, and then you get some additional

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Speaker 2: status and benefits if you have a Tier two or

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Speaker 2: Tier three subscription. Okay, but most of the people are

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Speaker 2: Tier one subscriptions, and we made the decision to make

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Speaker 2: it consistent across the site that everything has the same price,

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Speaker 2: as opposed to having lots of price variability.

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Speaker 1: Okay, to what degree does the creator have to say, hey,

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Speaker 1: come on subscribe, come on subscribe, or is it in

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Speaker 1: the window? How does that work?

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Speaker 2: Well, it sort of happens naturally, meaning people that are

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Speaker 2: watching Twitch kind of do it. So I'll use an

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Speaker 2: example for myself, I stream not as much as I

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Speaker 2: would like, okay, but I try to swim at least

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Speaker 2: once a week. Now, any of Now, I don't need

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Speaker 2: my audience to give me money, right and so, in fact,

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Speaker 2: by the way, any of the money that I get

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Speaker 2: from twitch, I go ahead and donate to charity. But

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Speaker 2: people still subscribe to me all the time, and I

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Speaker 2: don't do anything to try and encourage them. Now, most

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Speaker 2: of our creators do things to encourage people to subscribe, okay,

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Speaker 2: to get the ball rolling. So I'll just go through

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Speaker 2: a few examples. First of all, one thing that we

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Speaker 2: do is we have this thing called a hype train,

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Speaker 2: which has been very successful, which once people start subscribing

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Speaker 2: at the same time like a subscription or a gift,

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Speaker 2: and you cross a threshold, then a hype train starts.

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Speaker 2: And hype trains go to different levels, and I think

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Speaker 2: the record is like level one hundred and ten, and

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Speaker 2: as they get higher, we give out these emodes to

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Speaker 2: the community. So the community gets excited and says, let's

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Speaker 2: get level five, let's get level six, let's get level seven, right,

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Speaker 2: and of course the streamer is all excited. It's like, oh,

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Speaker 2: I'm getting I'm on a level five hype train. Come on, guys,

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Speaker 2: let's go to level six. Okay. So that's something that

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Speaker 2: we do that creates this kind of moment okay, that

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Speaker 2: gets lots of people saying, ooh, I want to be

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Speaker 2: part of this okay. But then streamers will do a

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Speaker 2: ton of stuff on their own okay. So for example,

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Speaker 2: one thing that's very common twitch is people do like subathons,

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Speaker 2: where they agree that if they reach so many subs,

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Speaker 2: they'll do certain things. Okay. The other thing they do

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Speaker 2: is sometimes they even stream for two weeks, three weeks,

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Speaker 2: thirty days. Whereas people keep giving money, it extends how

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Speaker 2: long they have to stream, okay. So they're kind of saying,

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Speaker 2: I will stream so much time for every dollar I receive,

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Speaker 2: and it has a counter so as people give money

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Speaker 2: and they keep the stream going even while they're sleeping, okay.

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Speaker 2: And so that creates this sort of communal experience and

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Speaker 2: excitement that gets everyone sort of contributing. So creators usually

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Speaker 2: do a fair amount, but they don't have to.

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Speaker 1: Are you familiar with this book? Just watch me by

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Speaker 1: leor Tour?

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Speaker 2: I am not. It sounds like one I need to read.

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Speaker 1: You have to read it because it's exactly what you're

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Speaker 1: talking about. It's a new book and it's about someone

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Speaker 1: who live streams and is raising money, and it deals

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Speaker 1: with all the concepts you're talking about. So you know,

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Speaker 1: ultimately we can talk about the themes, which would be

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Speaker 1: something different, but the mechanics are exactly what we're talking about.

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Speaker 1: Just watch me Lee or l I O R, I

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Speaker 1: see it, R.

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Speaker 2: I'll get it. I just searched on my computer and

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Speaker 2: it's sitting right here for me to start reading. And

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Speaker 2: by the way, one thing you mentioned, which is a

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Speaker 2: really important thing to note. I mean a huge thing

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Speaker 2: on Twitch is fundraising, and which is not surprising if

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Speaker 2: you go back in fundraising and you think of Jerry

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Speaker 2: Lewis telethon right, which was kind of the foundation of

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Speaker 2: fundraising Saint Jude's. I think they've raised over sixty million

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Speaker 2: on Twitch from creators that actively do things on stream

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Speaker 2: to raise money. And every year there are millions and

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Speaker 2: millions of dollars raised by creators who decide that's a

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Speaker 2: big part of what they want to do. And so

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Speaker 2: as opposed to you know, they will do these things,

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Speaker 2: but they do these things for contributions to a charity

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Speaker 2: that they care deeply about.

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Speaker 1: Let's say I'm part of the audience and I subscribe.

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Speaker 1: You know, when you're fundraising, their people say I pledge

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Speaker 1: one hundred dollars and then frequently they don't come through.

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Speaker 1: So if I say I subscribe, what are the mechanics

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Speaker 1: of collecting the money?

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Speaker 2: We take care of all that. When you pay you,

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Speaker 2: we get it right. You have a we have a

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Speaker 2: credit card with you, we charge it. It's charged right away.

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Speaker 1: Okay, So I'm there and I click subscribe, My credit

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Speaker 1: card gets charged.

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Speaker 2: Their credit card gets charged, and just like anything, there's

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Speaker 2: always challenges with some charge back because you're a credit card.

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Speaker 2: But yes, your credit card gets charged.

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Speaker 1: Okay. Let's say I am the streamer. When do I

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Speaker 1: get paid?

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Speaker 2: So right now, let me get the exact about we

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Speaker 2: pay out every I'm forgetting if it's every fifteen days

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Speaker 2: or every thirty days, I should know exactly. We've changed

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Speaker 2: it recently, but basically think of it every I'm pretty

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Speaker 2: sure it's every fifteen days, maybe every thirty days. That

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Speaker 2: we basically on cycle payout. Right, we have a we

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Speaker 2: have a cycle payout, and that we do need some

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Speaker 2: buffer in terms of charge backs and other things, because

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Speaker 2: once we pay you, we don't pull anything back, so

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Speaker 2: you know it's not too long.

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Speaker 1: So let me understand, I have no AD and I'm

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Speaker 1: a streamer. People are subscribing. I get one hundred cents

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Speaker 1: on the dollar to me.

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Speaker 2: No, that's a REP share. It's a rep share.

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Speaker 1: So what is the REV share?

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Speaker 2: The rev share? It depends upon. We have different levels. Okay,

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Speaker 2: for an average for you know, a regular smaller streamer,

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Speaker 2: it's fifty to fifty. We have what's called our our

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Speaker 2: Plus program for most of our established streamers, they get

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Speaker 2: either sixty forty or seventy thirty, and most of them

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Speaker 2: get seventy thirty. Okay, seventy percent of the revenue goes

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Speaker 2: to them. And the way we kind of the reason

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Speaker 2: we have the different levels, as we thought about it,

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Speaker 2: is for those people we're streaming is a core part

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Speaker 2: of how they fund their life. Okay, this is how

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Speaker 2: they pay their bills. We tried to make it so

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Speaker 2: that we could get most of them to seventy thirty.

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Speaker 2: So that's why we have these thresholds based upon the

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Speaker 2: number of subscribers you have, and we kind of set

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Speaker 2: it so that those people that are in general depending

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Speaker 2: upon this for their livelihood, and whereas there are a

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Speaker 2: lot of people that do it pick myself for example.

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Speaker 2: They do it out of passion and they may get

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Speaker 2: some additional money, but you know, then they'll be at

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Speaker 2: fifty to fifty.

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Speaker 1: Let's just say I'm a household name musician and I

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Speaker 1: have a lot of subscribers. I'm not living on the

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Speaker 1: money I'm making from Twitch, but am I going to

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Speaker 1: get fifty to fifty or seventy thirty?

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Speaker 2: You don't have to, meaning if you have other stuff,

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Speaker 2: as long as you have a certain amount of subscriptions

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Speaker 2: to you, it'd end up getting seventy thirty.

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Speaker 1: So really it's got less to do with whether the

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Speaker 1: person is living solely on Twitch money.

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Speaker 2: No, no, no, it's all about we have objective thresholds

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Speaker 2: about how many we have subscriber points. I won't go

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Speaker 2: into the details right because it's very inside baseball, but

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Speaker 2: it's basically how many subscribers you have. It's a little

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Speaker 2: more complicated because of our tears, but it's how many

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Speaker 2: subscribers you have that determines it, and it doesn't matter.

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Speaker 2: We just set the threshold to try and approximate. Here's

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Speaker 2: a threshold where if like, if this was your only

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Speaker 2: source of income it is, you know, you would be

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Speaker 2: depending upon this. But that's just how we set the threshold.

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Speaker 1: Okay, we know, mister beast in other clouds forms, what

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Speaker 1: is the most anybody is making from Twitch?

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Speaker 2: Ah? So let me This is what I'll talk about

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Speaker 2: for a second because it's important as you think about

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Speaker 2: our bigger streamers, and this is true in general in

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Speaker 2: the influencer marketplace. There is how much money they're making

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Speaker 2: from Twitch, but then how much money they're making off

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Speaker 2: of Twitch through direct sponsorship deals. And as you grow

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Speaker 2: basically when you first start out, you primarily make your

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Speaker 2: money from subscriptions. Okay, I've talked about. Then as you

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Speaker 2: get bigger, you also get ads because we have ads

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Speaker 2: as an important partner. As you get bigger, ads becomes

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Speaker 2: a more important part of your revenue stream.

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Speaker 1: Wait wait, time time out. These are the ads that Twitch.

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Speaker 2: Provides, Yes, that Twitch provides I know, and I'm going

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Speaker 2: to get so Twitch will run ads, right, So you

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Speaker 2: have your subscriptions, okay, then you have ads that we

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Speaker 2: run on the channel Okay that are also a revshare.

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Speaker 1: Okay, and what is the revshare on that?

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Speaker 2: The same is fifty five to forty five to you,

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Speaker 2: forty five to us okay. And then you have any

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Speaker 2: direct sponsorship money that you bring in okay, Okay, Meaning

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Speaker 2: a creator can get sponsored directly from a brand to

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Speaker 2: do something or twitch or to post on other social

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Speaker 2: media as part of their Twitch following because they have

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Speaker 2: an audience. Okay. As you get bigger, it may be

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Speaker 2: that fifty percent of your revenue comes off Twitch. You're

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Speaker 2: still getting it because of Twitch and your Twitch following,

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Speaker 2: but fifty percent of your revenue doesn't come through Twitch,

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Speaker 2: and we don't get any cut of that, okay. So

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Speaker 2: that is quite common. And you know, if you're creating

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Speaker 2: content on Instagram, often all of your revenue comes from

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Speaker 2: off Instagram. You get almost nothing from Instagram, right And

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Speaker 2: same thing with TikTok So how much does? I don't

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Speaker 2: want to quote any numbers because it's like twitch streamers

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Speaker 2: makes in the top. Twitch streamers makes in the millions

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Speaker 2: and millions of dollars, right, and so I don't want

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Speaker 2: to say any numbers, especially.

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Speaker 1: Where we'll be very specific. Are there people making seven

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Speaker 1: figures solely from twitch? I'm sure they're making sponsorship money

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Speaker 1: in addition to.

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Speaker 2: People making seven figures solely from Twitch.

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Speaker 1: Yes, okay, conventional YouTube influencers where it starts, they've migrated

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Speaker 1: to other platforms. A there is a real focus on frequency.

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Speaker 1: Unless you're posting at a certain level, you can't gain traction.

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Speaker 1: And then a lot of them are so busy posting

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Speaker 1: that they burn out. Jena Marbles, all these original influencers,

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Speaker 1: they're doing it and then they can't do it anywhere emotion.

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Speaker 2: So let's see. First of all, let me describe for

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Speaker 2: a second how twitch works to begin with, and then

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Speaker 2: what it takes to sustain. Okay, the foundation of Twitch

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Speaker 2: is the community you build and the fact that there

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Speaker 2: is a connection between people watching you and it is

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Speaker 2: the fact to get a sense of community. It takes

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Speaker 2: a certain amount of streaming for those people to build

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Speaker 2: that what I call a horizontal connection. For those people listening,

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Speaker 2: they won't see my hands going together, but I call

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Speaker 2: it a horizontal because you recognize each other in chat. Okay,

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Speaker 2: I'm going to do a quick divergence here to tell you,

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Speaker 2: you know, a story about that that'll kind of put

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Speaker 2: it to life. I was actually in the Middle East

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Speaker 2: and I talked. I was talking to a streamer from

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Speaker 2: the Arabic World and she was talking about how she

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Speaker 2: went on stream and one of her audience members wasn't

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Speaker 2: there and she is used to that audience member being

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Speaker 2: there regular She's like, what's happening and she asked everyone

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Speaker 2: in chat, and everyone in Chat was like, yeah, I

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Speaker 2: haven't seen him either. I haven't seen her on this

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Speaker 2: other channel, because they all knew who this person was.

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Speaker 2: So she started trying to figure out if he was okay, okay,

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Speaker 2: and did whatever information and she couldn't figure out. He

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Speaker 2: came back a week later and she was like, Oh,

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Speaker 2: we're so glad you're here. We're worried. In all of

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Speaker 2: Chat was saying this too, because all of Chat knew

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Speaker 2: who this person was and was connected to this person. Right.

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Speaker 2: It turns out he did have a modestly serious injury. Okay.

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Speaker 2: He was really touched that they noticed that he was gone.

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Speaker 2: The interesting part of the story is his immediate family,

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Speaker 2: who he doesn't live with, did not know he was

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Speaker 2: ever sick because he doesn't talk to them regularly, so

433
00:24:25,720 --> 00:24:28,639
Speaker 2: they didn't notice that he was like in the hospital.

434
00:24:28,920 --> 00:24:31,480
Speaker 2: He didn't contact them. They didn't notice, but his Twitch

435
00:24:31,520 --> 00:24:34,800
Speaker 2: community knew the day that something happened on him. And

436
00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:38,040
Speaker 2: it wasn't just the streamers of the community. So countless

437
00:24:38,080 --> 00:24:41,280
Speaker 2: stories I've heard of people meeting their mate just by

438
00:24:41,359 --> 00:24:44,679
Speaker 2: building the connections on Twitch. So I say that because

439
00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:47,240
Speaker 2: an important part of Twitch for the viewer isn't just

440
00:24:47,640 --> 00:24:51,639
Speaker 2: watching the content. It's feeling connected to the other people

441
00:24:51,960 --> 00:24:54,480
Speaker 2: and talking to them and getting to know them. So

442
00:24:55,040 --> 00:24:57,960
Speaker 2: going back to your question, when you get going, you

443
00:24:58,040 --> 00:25:02,480
Speaker 2: have to stream on some regularity to form that, Bob. Okay,

444
00:25:03,280 --> 00:25:07,679
Speaker 2: if you already have some notoriety, I often tell people, oh,

445
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:10,840
Speaker 2: if you stream two to three times a week, two

446
00:25:10,920 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 2: to three hours a stream, you can build a sense

447
00:25:14,560 --> 00:25:17,760
Speaker 2: of community. Now there are exceptions to that. I'll think

448
00:25:17,800 --> 00:25:20,359
Speaker 2: myself as an example, Bob, you would be someone that

449
00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:22,680
Speaker 2: might be an exception. I only stream once a week.

450
00:25:22,960 --> 00:25:25,760
Speaker 2: But I'm notable in that I was CEO, and even

451
00:25:25,800 --> 00:25:27,639
Speaker 2: though I only stream once a week, I still have

452
00:25:27,720 --> 00:25:30,160
Speaker 2: that sense of community from the folks who watch them.

453
00:25:30,480 --> 00:25:35,000
Speaker 1: Okay, when you stream, how do people know when you're

454
00:25:35,040 --> 00:25:35,800
Speaker 1: gonna stream?

455
00:25:35,920 --> 00:25:41,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I might post something on social media it says, oh,

456
00:25:41,640 --> 00:25:46,399
Speaker 2: I'm going live. But in general, for most people that stream,

457
00:25:46,400 --> 00:25:49,959
Speaker 2: I tell them maintain a schedule. Okay, say I'm going

458
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:54,119
Speaker 2: to stream every Monday and Thursday from seven to ten. Okay,

459
00:25:54,200 --> 00:25:57,120
Speaker 2: because you're going to find those members of your audience

460
00:25:57,119 --> 00:26:00,720
Speaker 2: that have that that are just free in that time period. Okay.

461
00:26:00,720 --> 00:26:03,640
Speaker 2: So usually it's good to have some schedule. You can

462
00:26:03,640 --> 00:26:06,080
Speaker 2: stream off schedule, but try to have some schedule to

463
00:26:06,080 --> 00:26:10,439
Speaker 2: build that community. Okay. Twitch sends notifications out whenever you

464
00:26:10,480 --> 00:26:14,040
Speaker 2: go live, So basically, once people are watching Twitch and

465
00:26:14,080 --> 00:26:18,639
Speaker 2: they follow you, then whenever I go live, the folks

466
00:26:18,680 --> 00:26:21,000
Speaker 2: that and I am not good at maintaining a schedule

467
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:24,479
Speaker 2: as an example, Bob, because my schedule is very erratic,

468
00:26:24,760 --> 00:26:27,160
Speaker 2: but they all get notifications as soon as I go live.

469
00:26:27,200 --> 00:26:29,400
Speaker 2: It says dan is live, Dan is live, Dan is live,

470
00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:31,119
Speaker 2: and so a lot of times they just start showing

471
00:26:31,160 --> 00:26:33,560
Speaker 2: up because they get the notification that I'm live, and

472
00:26:33,600 --> 00:26:36,119
Speaker 2: they're like, oh cool, I want to drop in. Okay.

473
00:26:36,160 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 2: If I want to tell people in advance, then usually

474
00:26:39,400 --> 00:26:42,000
Speaker 2: we do have ways within Twitch, but most people use

475
00:26:42,040 --> 00:26:45,200
Speaker 2: social media to say go on live tomorrow at ten,

476
00:26:45,359 --> 00:26:48,560
Speaker 2: because that's where people spend a lot of their time

477
00:26:48,760 --> 00:26:51,080
Speaker 2: is on Instagram or TikTok and so they post something

478
00:26:51,080 --> 00:26:53,960
Speaker 2: on there okay.

479
00:26:54,119 --> 00:26:59,120
Speaker 1: Twitch provided ads are those of break in the stream

480
00:26:59,440 --> 00:27:02,040
Speaker 1: or is it a bug that sits on the screen?

481
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:04,520
Speaker 1: How does that look like? Doesn't work?

482
00:27:05,560 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 2: The answer is both Okay. Basically I would broadly characterize

483
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,520
Speaker 2: three types of ads. We do have pre roll media

484
00:27:14,560 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 2: ads that might occur when someone shows up at a channel. Okay,

485
00:27:19,640 --> 00:27:23,880
Speaker 2: most of the video ads will be a mid roll

486
00:27:24,200 --> 00:27:28,159
Speaker 2: where the streamer marks they control. Every streamer controls what

487
00:27:28,240 --> 00:27:31,480
Speaker 2: the AIRD load is on their channel. Okay, So they

488
00:27:31,480 --> 00:27:33,280
Speaker 2: can run three minutes of ads, they can run six

489
00:27:33,320 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 2: minutes of ads. They decide how many ads okay, they

490
00:27:38,040 --> 00:27:41,600
Speaker 2: define when the breaks are okay. Now, it's important to

491
00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:45,400
Speaker 2: note the subscribers aren't getting ads, So just because it's

492
00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 2: an AD break, it doesn't mean that the streamer goes away.

493
00:27:48,520 --> 00:27:50,840
Speaker 2: Don't think if the guy gets up and leaves, usually

494
00:27:50,840 --> 00:27:53,280
Speaker 2: he's still doing something, but he takes into account and

495
00:27:53,440 --> 00:27:58,040
Speaker 2: AD break. And then we also have non interruptive ads okay,

496
00:27:58,040 --> 00:28:00,679
Speaker 2: because obviously that's something we want to get more for

497
00:28:00,800 --> 00:28:03,959
Speaker 2: the creators, it's better to minimize the interruptive ads. So

498
00:28:04,000 --> 00:28:06,439
Speaker 2: we do have some placements that are non interrupted that

499
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:08,040
Speaker 2: you can see while you're watching the stream.

500
00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:15,679
Speaker 1: Okay, going back to sponsorships, you know you have a

501
00:28:15,720 --> 00:28:20,560
Speaker 1: lot of people in general influencers or hawking products and

502
00:28:20,600 --> 00:28:24,840
Speaker 1: it undercuts their credibility. How would you advise someone who's

503
00:28:24,880 --> 00:28:28,320
Speaker 1: doing that on Twitch, someone who has external sponsors.

504
00:28:28,760 --> 00:28:31,959
Speaker 2: Yeah, what I often say is you want to make

505
00:28:32,000 --> 00:28:36,960
Speaker 2: sure there's an authenticity to when you are doing a sponsorship.

506
00:28:38,280 --> 00:28:40,240
Speaker 2: When you look at the amount of money that somebody

507
00:28:40,280 --> 00:28:44,040
Speaker 2: makes directly from their audience, which again is different. You know,

508
00:28:44,080 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 2: if you look at the short form, people are making

509
00:28:47,960 --> 00:28:50,760
Speaker 2: a lot of money directly from their audience. On Twitch,

510
00:28:50,840 --> 00:28:53,360
Speaker 2: they are making a lot of money directly from their audience.

511
00:28:53,800 --> 00:28:57,360
Speaker 2: So if you go on and show for a product

512
00:28:57,400 --> 00:29:00,200
Speaker 2: you don't believe in to these people that are paying

513
00:29:00,240 --> 00:29:04,600
Speaker 2: to support you in general, like, that's not a great idea,

514
00:29:05,080 --> 00:29:06,640
Speaker 2: right if you don't believe in the other And so

515
00:29:07,160 --> 00:29:09,960
Speaker 2: the magic that works, and this is what I often

516
00:29:10,000 --> 00:29:13,240
Speaker 2: talk when I when I talk to brands is I

517
00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,840
Speaker 2: talk about the fact that to three quarters of the

518
00:29:16,880 --> 00:29:19,280
Speaker 2: money we make doesn't come from add It comes directly

519
00:29:19,360 --> 00:29:24,160
Speaker 2: from viewers pockets. And that means those viewers are emotionally

520
00:29:24,200 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 2: engaged with the content Okay. So it's actually because what

521
00:29:28,040 --> 00:29:31,320
Speaker 2: you're trying to do with an AD is create emotional transference,

522
00:29:31,400 --> 00:29:34,760
Speaker 2: right that I have a positive feeling towards you. You

523
00:29:34,840 --> 00:29:37,360
Speaker 2: have an association with this brand. So now I have

524
00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,640
Speaker 2: a positive association with filling the Brank brand. Okay. And

525
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:45,840
Speaker 2: so I often tell streamers, I say, look, you should

526
00:29:45,840 --> 00:29:50,000
Speaker 2: make sure that you like to some degree believe in

527
00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:54,520
Speaker 2: this brand. And it's not just you, you know, being

528
00:29:54,560 --> 00:29:58,760
Speaker 2: a shrill show for whatever they say, because you know

529
00:29:59,000 --> 00:30:00,480
Speaker 2: that matters to your community.

530
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:08,040
Speaker 1: Okay, I follow X and do I have the same

531
00:30:08,200 --> 00:30:11,960
Speaker 1: ability to chat as someone who subscribes?

532
00:30:14,040 --> 00:30:16,800
Speaker 2: Absolutely? You know. Now, well let me add it on.

533
00:30:16,920 --> 00:30:21,760
Speaker 2: Let me add one caveat the streamer can control who

534
00:30:21,800 --> 00:30:25,440
Speaker 2: can chat in their chat. So the streamer has a

535
00:30:25,480 --> 00:30:29,120
Speaker 2: lot of control. Okay. So for example, they can put

536
00:30:29,160 --> 00:30:31,880
Speaker 2: their chat in subscribe or only chat if they so choose.

537
00:30:32,400 --> 00:30:34,720
Speaker 2: So if they put their chat in subscribe or only chat,

538
00:30:34,720 --> 00:30:37,560
Speaker 2: and sometimes a larger streamer might do that or might

539
00:30:37,640 --> 00:30:40,640
Speaker 2: do that for a certain portion of his stream to

540
00:30:40,760 --> 00:30:44,760
Speaker 2: reward those people that are subscribers. Okay, you can put

541
00:30:44,760 --> 00:30:47,880
Speaker 2: it and follower only chat. Okay, sometimes you might do

542
00:30:48,000 --> 00:30:50,400
Speaker 2: that to avoid just a lot of noise from the

543
00:30:50,400 --> 00:30:55,000
Speaker 2: people that don't. Okay, So the creator decides who can

544
00:30:55,040 --> 00:30:59,280
Speaker 2: participate in chat. I'd say most creators don't restrict it

545
00:30:59,320 --> 00:31:02,120
Speaker 2: to subscribe only chat as a general rule. I think

546
00:31:02,160 --> 00:31:05,400
Speaker 2: that's more the exception that somebody will limit it to

547
00:31:05,520 --> 00:31:06,720
Speaker 2: subscribeer only chat.

548
00:31:07,240 --> 00:31:10,400
Speaker 1: And to what degree is it important for the streamer

549
00:31:10,880 --> 00:31:14,520
Speaker 1: to chat with the audience as opposed to the audience

550
00:31:14,640 --> 00:31:15,880
Speaker 1: chatting amongst itself.

551
00:31:16,400 --> 00:31:19,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, so I'm gonna say it doesn't matter for the

552
00:31:19,960 --> 00:31:23,440
Speaker 2: streamer to type into chat, right, okay, because they're talking.

553
00:31:23,480 --> 00:31:26,240
Speaker 2: The real question is to what degree is it important

554
00:31:26,280 --> 00:31:31,200
Speaker 2: for the streamer to interact with chat? Okay? And in general? Now,

555
00:31:31,240 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 2: sometimes you may be doing streams or you don't do it,

556
00:31:33,640 --> 00:31:37,240
Speaker 2: and that's okay, But in general it's pretty important, okay,

557
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,680
Speaker 2: because the thing that like, everyone wants to be heard, okay,

558
00:31:42,080 --> 00:31:45,320
Speaker 2: And when I'm watching and you just say hey Kevin

559
00:31:45,400 --> 00:31:48,160
Speaker 2: verse seven, you know, yeah, let me answer your question

560
00:31:48,440 --> 00:31:51,040
Speaker 2: or thanks for being here. Like when I start streaming,

561
00:31:51,480 --> 00:31:53,440
Speaker 2: the first thing I do is for the first people

562
00:31:53,440 --> 00:31:55,120
Speaker 2: that show up in chat, because I turn it on

563
00:31:55,320 --> 00:31:57,560
Speaker 2: and then people say, hey Dan, what's happening? Hey, I

564
00:31:57,600 --> 00:32:00,000
Speaker 2: go yo, Kevin verse seven, glad to see you again,

565
00:32:00,080 --> 00:32:03,040
Speaker 2: and oh, Vix and Bena, glad you're here. Oh. And

566
00:32:03,080 --> 00:32:06,480
Speaker 2: I'm sitting there calling out all these people, right, and

567
00:32:06,520 --> 00:32:09,560
Speaker 2: so that is part of building the sense of belonging

568
00:32:10,040 --> 00:32:13,720
Speaker 2: because I'm showing that I hear them. Okay, and so

569
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,280
Speaker 2: most of our streamers spend some amount of time paying

570
00:32:18,320 --> 00:32:20,280
Speaker 2: attention to chatt to show that they care.

571
00:32:21,480 --> 00:32:25,760
Speaker 1: Okay, this goes with the territory, and I have to

572
00:32:25,840 --> 00:32:30,760
Speaker 1: ask these people become somewhat public, to what degree are

573
00:32:30,760 --> 00:32:35,800
Speaker 1: their issues of stalking and other infringing upon someone's privacy

574
00:32:35,960 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 1: or space.

575
00:32:37,360 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, so everyone needs you know, the reality is in

576
00:32:42,360 --> 00:32:46,320
Speaker 2: today's world, notable people need to be cognizant of this.

577
00:32:46,480 --> 00:32:50,160
Speaker 2: We have very strict rules around boxing and boxing off

578
00:32:50,240 --> 00:32:52,880
Speaker 2: platform as well as on platform. So in fact, if

579
00:32:52,920 --> 00:32:56,120
Speaker 2: ever someone is doing that which is sharing private information,

580
00:32:56,400 --> 00:32:59,080
Speaker 2: we take that seriously. We ban them from Twitch. So

581
00:32:59,200 --> 00:33:02,880
Speaker 2: in general, that's not something that that happens a lot.

582
00:33:03,200 --> 00:33:05,719
Speaker 2: But of course as you get bigger, and it varies

583
00:33:05,760 --> 00:33:09,200
Speaker 2: depending upon the creator, you have to be very cognizant

584
00:33:09,240 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 2: because you're becoming a public figure in today's world. Okay,

585
00:33:13,920 --> 00:33:16,200
Speaker 2: one of the factors, there's one issue about what i'll

586
00:33:16,240 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 2: call your personal safety, okay, in terms of where you're at,

587
00:33:19,320 --> 00:33:21,840
Speaker 2: and as you get bigger, you have to be cognizant

588
00:33:21,840 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 2: of that. Which is unfortunate that that's the case, right,

589
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:28,560
Speaker 2: but that is the world we live in. One thing

590
00:33:28,560 --> 00:33:33,040
Speaker 2: that's really interesting about when you're on Twitch, though, is

591
00:33:33,800 --> 00:33:36,760
Speaker 2: you can control and you can ban people from your chat.

592
00:33:37,760 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 2: So one of the problems in today's social media world

593
00:33:41,040 --> 00:33:44,120
Speaker 2: is you post something and you have all the trolls

594
00:33:44,160 --> 00:33:47,080
Speaker 2: that are there responding, whether it's on X or Instagram

595
00:33:47,120 --> 00:33:49,280
Speaker 2: and commenting or whatever. Right, So if you say something

596
00:33:49,320 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 2: on X, you have all these people that will attack you.

597
00:33:52,040 --> 00:33:54,440
Speaker 2: And if there's anyone you're a fan of, any musician

598
00:33:54,480 --> 00:33:56,400
Speaker 2: you love they post something, they're going to be people

599
00:33:56,440 --> 00:33:58,720
Speaker 2: that are going to be, oh, I can't believe you

600
00:33:58,720 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 2: did this, you sold out or whatever. Right, And when

601
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:03,840
Speaker 2: you read all that stuff, it just makes you feel

602
00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:07,040
Speaker 2: like shit, right because you know, let's say you're a

603
00:34:07,120 --> 00:34:09,359
Speaker 2: musician and you're creating stuff and then these people are

604
00:34:09,360 --> 00:34:14,200
Speaker 2: attacking you. Okay, on Twitch, if somebody attacks you in chat,

605
00:34:15,000 --> 00:34:17,359
Speaker 2: we have moderators, we have lots of tools you ban them,

606
00:34:17,560 --> 00:34:20,360
Speaker 2: and what ends up happening it's kind of different in

607
00:34:20,440 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 2: other social media and other social media, sometimes fifty percent

608
00:34:23,440 --> 00:34:28,240
Speaker 2: in your comments can be trolls. On Twitch, people tend

609
00:34:28,239 --> 00:34:30,040
Speaker 2: not to just sit there if they don't like you.

610
00:34:30,080 --> 00:34:33,279
Speaker 2: They don't sit there and watch you for two hours. Right,

611
00:34:33,440 --> 00:34:35,879
Speaker 2: They're not going to do that. They might come in

612
00:34:35,920 --> 00:34:38,359
Speaker 2: and say something then you ban them. So the reality is,

613
00:34:38,400 --> 00:34:40,920
Speaker 2: in terms of the abuse you get in chat, I'm

614
00:34:40,920 --> 00:34:42,919
Speaker 2: not saying it's not an issue. It's something we think about.

615
00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:47,800
Speaker 2: It tends to be far less than in other social

616
00:34:47,840 --> 00:34:52,400
Speaker 2: media platforms because you can control who can be engaged

617
00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:53,080
Speaker 2: in your chat.

618
00:34:53,800 --> 00:34:57,160
Speaker 1: Okay, do you block at the user level name or

619
00:34:57,160 --> 00:34:58,760
Speaker 1: the IP address name.

620
00:34:59,680 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 2: When somebody bans this account, Okay, it is the person

621
00:35:04,320 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 2: who is getting banned. Now, we do a lot of

622
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:10,080
Speaker 2: work to try and determine when people have duplicate accounts,

623
00:35:10,640 --> 00:35:13,600
Speaker 2: and there are two types of banning. If you violate

624
00:35:13,600 --> 00:35:17,120
Speaker 2: our community guidelines, we may ban you from Twitch. But

625
00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:20,120
Speaker 2: you also can set different standards on your chat that

626
00:35:20,160 --> 00:35:23,799
Speaker 2: are different than Twitches. Okay, so you can say this

627
00:35:23,960 --> 00:35:28,080
Speaker 2: is family friendly. I don't want anyone cursing. Someone curses,

628
00:35:28,120 --> 00:35:31,480
Speaker 2: you can ban them from your chat. Okay, you're banning

629
00:35:31,520 --> 00:35:34,799
Speaker 2: that person. We have various different ways to determine when

630
00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:37,520
Speaker 2: this person is associated with different accounts, and IP is

631
00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,319
Speaker 2: one of them. Okay, But so we work to make

632
00:35:41,400 --> 00:35:45,759
Speaker 2: sure that somebody can't do ban evasion. Of course, it's

633
00:35:45,840 --> 00:35:48,360
Speaker 2: always a cat and mouse game because there's no perfect

634
00:35:48,400 --> 00:35:51,839
Speaker 2: formula for that. But conceptually, what it is is we're

635
00:35:51,880 --> 00:35:53,680
Speaker 2: banning the person, not the account.

636
00:35:54,440 --> 00:35:58,239
Speaker 1: Okay. Other than video gaming, which is a world up

637
00:35:58,320 --> 00:36:02,480
Speaker 1: to itself and Twitch really owns, can you name someone

638
00:36:02,520 --> 00:36:07,920
Speaker 1: else who has primarily built their career, reputation, monetary reward

639
00:36:08,360 --> 00:36:09,080
Speaker 1: via Twitch.

640
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, well, I mean I'll take our top streamer who,

641
00:36:14,960 --> 00:36:17,279
Speaker 2: while he gains a little bit, that's not why he's known,

642
00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,520
Speaker 2: Miss Kaisano. Okay, our top streamer who was on the

643
00:36:21,560 --> 00:36:26,280
Speaker 2: cover of Time magazine for the Creator of the Year. Okay,

644
00:36:26,560 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 2: He's primarily known for the antics that he does, if

645
00:36:31,640 --> 00:36:34,520
Speaker 2: you will, for all the funny stuff that he does

646
00:36:35,080 --> 00:36:38,960
Speaker 2: where he has people over you know, in his you know,

647
00:36:39,400 --> 00:36:43,640
Speaker 2: in his you know house, just doing funny and goofy stuff.

648
00:36:43,680 --> 00:36:45,720
Speaker 2: He has a great clip where he did a stream

649
00:36:45,760 --> 00:36:50,400
Speaker 2: with Kevin Hart where they did a sleepover. Okay, but

650
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:54,359
Speaker 2: I would start with with Kai, who's you know at

651
00:36:54,360 --> 00:36:57,759
Speaker 2: the you know, at the top of the heap right now.

652
00:36:57,800 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: On twitch, Okay, I'm a creator, you know these some

653
00:37:01,960 --> 00:37:09,080
Speaker 1: of these terms influencer. There are multiple platforms, There's YouTube, Instagram, TikTok, Twitch,

654
00:37:11,320 --> 00:37:15,080
Speaker 1: What would you say, would you say be on all

655
00:37:15,160 --> 00:37:19,040
Speaker 1: of them? Or really you should be on Twitch and

656
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:20,400
Speaker 1: dedicate your type of Twitch.

657
00:37:21,280 --> 00:37:24,360
Speaker 2: So, first of all, as opposed to talking about platforms,

658
00:37:25,040 --> 00:37:28,440
Speaker 2: I'm going to talk about content types and then get

659
00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:32,000
Speaker 2: to platforms, okay, and broadly, I think now you should

660
00:37:32,040 --> 00:37:37,719
Speaker 2: think of three types of content live. Okay. What I

661
00:37:37,800 --> 00:37:40,640
Speaker 2: will call is I'm going to use the term long

662
00:37:40,760 --> 00:37:44,320
Speaker 2: form BODVOD for video on demand, and I'm going to

663
00:37:44,480 --> 00:37:48,800
Speaker 2: use the term short form VOD. Okay. Now, the reality

664
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,000
Speaker 2: is the length of the VOD is a continuum, doesn't binorize.

665
00:37:52,200 --> 00:37:54,560
Speaker 2: But in your mind, as we think short form BOD,

666
00:37:55,040 --> 00:37:59,080
Speaker 2: be thinking of thirty seconds to one to two minutes,

667
00:37:59,120 --> 00:38:02,360
Speaker 2: in other words, based the type of experience that YouTube, shorts,

668
00:38:02,400 --> 00:38:06,359
Speaker 2: TikTok and Instagram reels is optimized for. So that's what

669
00:38:06,400 --> 00:38:09,479
Speaker 2: I'm going to call short form. When I think long

670
00:38:09,560 --> 00:38:12,360
Speaker 2: form for now, think of twenty minute videos on YouTube

671
00:38:12,719 --> 00:38:15,200
Speaker 2: or longer. Okay, now, yes, I know there's a gap

672
00:38:15,200 --> 00:38:17,120
Speaker 2: between two to three minutes and twenty minutes. You have

673
00:38:17,160 --> 00:38:22,680
Speaker 2: ten minutes, but just and then live. Okay. So the

674
00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:27,040
Speaker 2: first thing you have to ask, the question is your

675
00:38:27,080 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 2: creative expression? What are you trying to create? What are

676
00:38:29,960 --> 00:38:35,120
Speaker 2: you trying to communicate? Okay? And that sometimes dictates the artifact. Okay.

677
00:38:35,640 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 2: Short form content is the best content for discovery. The

678
00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:43,319
Speaker 2: reason for that is someone can watch a lot and

679
00:38:43,360 --> 00:38:46,680
Speaker 2: it's very easy for something to go viral. Okay. So

680
00:38:47,160 --> 00:38:53,000
Speaker 2: to use a you know, comparison, someone on TikTok might

681
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 2: see two thousand creators in a week, okay with this star,

682
00:38:56,760 --> 00:39:00,439
Speaker 2: or three thousand or four thousand someone on twitch watch

683
00:39:00,480 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 2: five to ten. I believe someone on YouTube is probably

684
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:09,440
Speaker 2: in the middle, three hundred or four hundred. Okay. I

685
00:39:09,520 --> 00:39:11,680
Speaker 2: think one thing, and especially later on we might start

686
00:39:11,680 --> 00:39:15,680
Speaker 2: talking about music. There's this thing about emotional attachment between

687
00:39:15,719 --> 00:39:19,840
Speaker 2: the creator, okay, and short form is a great way

688
00:39:19,880 --> 00:39:23,520
Speaker 2: to get discovered, but it isn't a great way to

689
00:39:23,640 --> 00:39:28,640
Speaker 2: form an emotional attachment between the artist, the creator and

690
00:39:28,719 --> 00:39:32,400
Speaker 2: the viewer because you're just one of two to three thousand. Okay.

691
00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:36,640
Speaker 2: If somebody stops creating content, on TikTok you don't even

692
00:39:36,719 --> 00:39:40,440
Speaker 2: know it right because your attachment is to the platform.

693
00:39:40,800 --> 00:39:44,120
Speaker 2: If someone stops streaming on Twitch, then I know it

694
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:46,799
Speaker 2: within days that they're not streaming right now. That's because

695
00:39:46,840 --> 00:39:49,600
Speaker 2: I'm more emotionally attached. So the way I describe it

696
00:39:49,680 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 2: is personally, I think if you want to be discovered,

697
00:39:53,719 --> 00:39:56,239
Speaker 2: that's what you're trying to do. I think short form

698
00:39:56,239 --> 00:40:00,439
Speaker 2: content is the best channel for discovery. Okay, you want

699
00:40:00,440 --> 00:40:03,479
Speaker 2: to build deep connection with your audience, I think live

700
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,360
Speaker 2: is the best way to do that, and it's also

701
00:40:06,400 --> 00:40:10,960
Speaker 2: the best way to turn affinity and affection into dollars directly,

702
00:40:11,239 --> 00:40:14,760
Speaker 2: where they're supporting you directly. Okay. Now, the one caveat

703
00:40:14,800 --> 00:40:20,600
Speaker 2: I will say is live isn't for everyone. Some people

704
00:40:20,640 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 2: aren't comfortable live. Some people aren't comfortable being exposed to,

705
00:40:25,840 --> 00:40:29,480
Speaker 2: you know, all the sundrys and everything that they you know,

706
00:40:30,200 --> 00:40:33,279
Speaker 2: might deal with. They're better And that's particularly true from

707
00:40:33,280 --> 00:40:35,799
Speaker 2: a musician's perspective the way I think of it. And

708
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 2: you know, some musicians finally craft their words and you

709
00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 2: can see them on stage. There's sometimes a little uncomfortable

710
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,440
Speaker 2: in stage because they have this artifact, which is the

711
00:40:45,520 --> 00:40:48,719
Speaker 2: song which is a finely crafted song and that's what

712
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:52,160
Speaker 2: they're presenting, and they don't want to be answering questions

713
00:40:52,160 --> 00:40:54,920
Speaker 2: and improvising and doing all sorts of stuff. So for

714
00:40:55,080 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 2: some people, Live isn't the right thing for them. Okay,

715
00:41:00,200 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: to enjoy live is you're going to do it because

716
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:04,479
Speaker 2: it's gonna take time. So the way I would say

717
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:08,239
Speaker 2: it is everyone as they're thinking about discovery should be

718
00:41:08,239 --> 00:41:12,080
Speaker 2: thinking about using the short form content platforms if you're

719
00:41:12,080 --> 00:41:15,320
Speaker 2: looking for discovery, because it's just the best for discovery,

720
00:41:15,360 --> 00:41:17,839
Speaker 2: that's just the nature of it. Then as you think

721
00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:20,480
Speaker 2: about building a stronger connection, I think that's when you

722
00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,359
Speaker 2: want to think about longer form, and I think Live

723
00:41:22,480 --> 00:41:25,160
Speaker 2: is a great form of longer form. I also think

724
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:35,319
Speaker 2: YouTube can be useful for longer form.

725
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:38,760
Speaker 1: What about nudity slash pornography?

726
00:41:38,920 --> 00:41:43,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, so we don't allow nudity and pornographa on Twitch.

727
00:41:43,280 --> 00:41:46,719
Speaker 2: So that's pretty straightforward not on Twitch, So I won't

728
00:41:46,760 --> 00:41:50,560
Speaker 2: hypothesize if that's what your product is, which platforms to use.

729
00:41:51,080 --> 00:41:53,800
Speaker 2: So we don't allow nudity and pronoraphy itch, we decided

730
00:41:53,800 --> 00:41:56,040
Speaker 2: that's not appropriate for our platform.

731
00:41:55,600 --> 00:41:57,640
Speaker 1: As a practical matter. How do you believe that.

732
00:41:58,480 --> 00:42:01,960
Speaker 2: Oh, it's fairly. We have policies, we have automated techniques

733
00:42:02,719 --> 00:42:05,960
Speaker 2: that detected, but then we also have user reporting in

734
00:42:05,960 --> 00:42:08,840
Speaker 2: case the automated techniques don't work. But in general the

735
00:42:08,880 --> 00:42:12,239
Speaker 2: automated techniques worked pretty well. But we also have a

736
00:42:12,280 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 2: fairly rapid where we have a bunch of operators, we

737
00:42:15,160 --> 00:42:17,399
Speaker 2: have useder reporting and within a matter of minutes, if

738
00:42:17,400 --> 00:42:20,359
Speaker 2: something is in violation of our community guidelines, then we're

739
00:42:20,400 --> 00:42:21,520
Speaker 2: able to act and take it down.

740
00:42:22,000 --> 00:42:25,400
Speaker 1: Okay, pulling the lens back in terms of number of

741
00:42:25,560 --> 00:42:30,439
Speaker 1: users in hours. Watch if we graph it, what's going

742
00:42:30,480 --> 00:42:31,640
Speaker 1: on with Twitch.

743
00:42:33,200 --> 00:42:38,240
Speaker 2: Meaning over time? Yes, okay, over time. What you'll see

744
00:42:38,360 --> 00:42:42,640
Speaker 2: is there have been these certain exogatius events that drove

745
00:42:42,719 --> 00:42:47,560
Speaker 2: a lot of growth. Okay, so the first well, you

746
00:42:47,600 --> 00:42:49,880
Speaker 2: could go back and StarCraft was a big thing that

747
00:42:49,960 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 2: first drove Twitch. But then as you fast forward you

748
00:42:56,600 --> 00:42:59,160
Speaker 2: get to when Fortnite came out and Twitch had this

749
00:42:59,360 --> 00:43:03,640
Speaker 2: huge resear I'll growth during Fortnite praize. Okay. Part of

750
00:43:03,640 --> 00:43:05,200
Speaker 2: that is because a lot of the folks that were

751
00:43:05,239 --> 00:43:08,279
Speaker 2: creating Fortnite content started streaming, and so there was this

752
00:43:08,440 --> 00:43:13,160
Speaker 2: natural feedback cycle with Fortnite COVID caused another big bump

753
00:43:13,800 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 2: okay after COVID then, But like many platforms, because basically

754
00:43:17,960 --> 00:43:19,920
Speaker 2: there are a lot of people at home looking for community,

755
00:43:19,920 --> 00:43:22,600
Speaker 2: looking for connection in Twitch was a great platform and

756
00:43:22,640 --> 00:43:24,719
Speaker 2: also a lot of creators, a lot of musicians to

757
00:43:24,960 --> 00:43:26,520
Speaker 2: come up to me and say, wow, Twitch was a

758
00:43:26,520 --> 00:43:28,880
Speaker 2: lifesaver for me, Like I turned to Twitch because I

759
00:43:28,880 --> 00:43:33,279
Speaker 2: couldn't do shows. Okay. As COVID passed, there was a

760
00:43:34,120 --> 00:43:36,799
Speaker 2: softening of the market, which was this kind of like

761
00:43:36,880 --> 00:43:42,480
Speaker 2: many platforms, if you look over the last year or so, overall,

762
00:43:42,520 --> 00:43:45,000
Speaker 2: it's been you know what, I'll just call you know,

763
00:43:45,400 --> 00:43:50,640
Speaker 2: roughly flat. Okay. Now, I think what has been happening,

764
00:43:50,719 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: interestingly is Twitch streamers actually have been having a bigger

765
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:59,439
Speaker 2: impact than ever in terms of their reach and their

766
00:43:59,440 --> 00:44:03,719
Speaker 2: impact on a society. What's happening is there's a more

767
00:44:04,040 --> 00:44:08,200
Speaker 2: seismic shift towards more short form content. Okay. And so

768
00:44:08,280 --> 00:44:10,399
Speaker 2: if I had a metric, which I don't have, by

769
00:44:10,440 --> 00:44:14,439
Speaker 2: the way of viewership of Twitch content on third party

770
00:44:14,520 --> 00:44:17,919
Speaker 2: social media platforms, I'm quite confident it's been up into

771
00:44:17,960 --> 00:44:20,839
Speaker 2: the right the last two years that the impact that

772
00:44:20,880 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 2: Twitch creators are having on culture is larger than ever. Okay.

773
00:44:25,760 --> 00:44:28,440
Speaker 2: The end result, by the way, this matters to our creators.

774
00:44:28,440 --> 00:44:30,760
Speaker 2: A big part that's important for Twitch as a business

775
00:44:30,920 --> 00:44:33,839
Speaker 2: is are we creating a platform where our creators can

776
00:44:33,920 --> 00:44:38,080
Speaker 2: sustain a living and you know, reach their audience. And

777
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,560
Speaker 2: the answer is, our creators are bigger than ever in

778
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:46,120
Speaker 2: terms of the audience they're we are reaching, and so

779
00:44:46,200 --> 00:44:48,000
Speaker 2: I feel very good about that aspect of it.

780
00:44:48,640 --> 00:44:52,120
Speaker 1: Okay, if we look at history, Second Life was going

781
00:44:52,200 --> 00:44:56,600
Speaker 1: to be the future that didn't happen. Snapjack came along.

782
00:44:56,640 --> 00:44:59,520
Speaker 1: Of course, it was initially disappearing videos. We all know

783
00:44:59,560 --> 00:45:02,680
Speaker 1: you can ca after those, et cetera. But it ended

784
00:45:02,760 --> 00:45:11,920
Speaker 1: up being a you've dominated service that did not grow. Okay, Instagram,

785
00:45:12,920 --> 00:45:16,080
Speaker 1: which was purchased by Facebook is generating a lot of

786
00:45:16,120 --> 00:45:22,800
Speaker 1: money as a result of ads, etc. Hey is Twitch

787
00:45:22,920 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 1: really the land of young people? Or are old people

788
00:45:26,719 --> 00:45:28,080
Speaker 1: watching Twitchell?

789
00:45:28,280 --> 00:45:34,400
Speaker 2: Two old people are watching Twitch. Interestingly, Our largest demographic

790
00:45:34,400 --> 00:45:37,800
Speaker 2: now is twenty five to thirty four. Okay, and I

791
00:45:37,840 --> 00:45:41,120
Speaker 2: should have gotten I meant to check to see what

792
00:45:41,280 --> 00:45:43,840
Speaker 2: percentage or our viewership is fifty plus and I forgot

793
00:45:43,880 --> 00:45:47,800
Speaker 2: to do that. But it's surprising when I see what percentage.

794
00:45:48,040 --> 00:45:51,880
Speaker 2: I don't know if it's five to seven percent. In fact, actually,

795
00:45:51,880 --> 00:45:53,879
Speaker 2: while we're sitting here, maybe I'll ping someone on that.

796
00:45:54,960 --> 00:45:57,520
Speaker 2: So here's the way I would describe it. I don't

797
00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,360
Speaker 2: think there are a ton of old people linked to

798
00:46:00,400 --> 00:46:06,160
Speaker 2: twitch having never watched twitch. Okay, uh and now for

799
00:46:06,239 --> 00:46:08,719
Speaker 2: the first time they're watching Twitch at sixty and the

800
00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,120
Speaker 2: certainly that happens, but I wouldn't say that's the prime demographic.

801
00:46:12,440 --> 00:46:16,120
Speaker 2: What's happening is people are aging up. Okay, so you

802
00:46:16,120 --> 00:46:18,879
Speaker 2: know gaming has been around for a while now, so

803
00:46:19,480 --> 00:46:22,960
Speaker 2: and as people as opposed to aging out of Twitch,

804
00:46:22,960 --> 00:46:25,080
Speaker 2: you don't age out of Twitch. Is maybe the simplest

805
00:46:25,080 --> 00:46:27,720
Speaker 2: way to say it. Okay, it may be with snap

806
00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:29,520
Speaker 2: after you get to a certain age, you age out.

807
00:46:29,840 --> 00:46:32,759
Speaker 2: With Twitch, what we see is, you know, we get

808
00:46:32,760 --> 00:46:34,920
Speaker 2: a lot of usage from still people in their thirties

809
00:46:34,920 --> 00:46:37,719
Speaker 2: and upper thirties and now they may have been using

810
00:46:37,760 --> 00:46:39,120
Speaker 2: it for five or ten years.

811
00:46:40,000 --> 00:46:43,520
Speaker 1: Let's use someone you may be familiar with and you

812
00:46:43,560 --> 00:46:46,680
Speaker 1: can translate it to other people. But it's music. There's

813
00:46:46,719 --> 00:46:49,200
Speaker 1: this guy, Rick Biado. You know who that is.

814
00:46:50,320 --> 00:46:52,680
Speaker 2: I know the name. Let me check, well, Rick.

815
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:56,640
Speaker 1: Biato has a presence on you too.

816
00:46:56,719 --> 00:46:58,400
Speaker 2: I recognize the face. Yeah, I know that, I know

817
00:46:58,480 --> 00:46:58,960
Speaker 2: Rick Beata.

818
00:46:59,120 --> 00:47:03,040
Speaker 1: Now it has It was first just him analyzing music

819
00:47:03,120 --> 00:47:07,440
Speaker 1: saying thing. Now it is interviews with more famous musicians

820
00:47:07,560 --> 00:47:10,520
Speaker 1: about their music how they're literally making.

821
00:47:10,239 --> 00:47:11,280
Speaker 2: It yep, yep.

822
00:47:11,360 --> 00:47:19,759
Speaker 1: He is making multiple seven figures from YouTube and his

823
00:47:20,200 --> 00:47:26,400
Speaker 1: videos are not brief. Could he make as much money?

824
00:47:26,440 --> 00:47:28,719
Speaker 1: What would be the advantage of going to twitch for

825
00:47:28,840 --> 00:47:29,720
Speaker 1: someone like him?

826
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, here's the way. If I were talking to him,

827
00:47:32,440 --> 00:47:36,600
Speaker 2: I'd say, don't think of it it's either or okay,

828
00:47:36,640 --> 00:47:39,920
Speaker 2: think of it as d It's absolutely the case that

829
00:47:40,080 --> 00:47:43,040
Speaker 2: VOD allows you to reach a broader audience because when

830
00:47:43,080 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 2: you go live, not everybody can show up whenever you

831
00:47:45,600 --> 00:47:48,520
Speaker 2: are live, okay, And so you're just going to reach

832
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:55,799
Speaker 2: more people when you create BOD content. The advantage of

833
00:47:55,840 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 2: doing it live is if you like the idea including

834
00:48:01,040 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 2: your audience and community while you're creating content. So I'll

835
00:48:04,760 --> 00:48:09,440
Speaker 2: use as an example what we are doing right now, Bob. Okay,

836
00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:13,720
Speaker 2: how would it be different if we were doing this live? Okay?

837
00:48:13,920 --> 00:48:15,799
Speaker 2: The way it'd be different and'd be doing it live

838
00:48:15,920 --> 00:48:17,879
Speaker 2: is chat would be going and you might be keeping

839
00:48:17,960 --> 00:48:20,840
Speaker 2: an eye on chat, right and then at some point

840
00:48:21,239 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 2: I will say something that you aren't an expert in.

841
00:48:23,760 --> 00:48:26,200
Speaker 2: So when I say something, you don't know about something,

842
00:48:26,200 --> 00:48:29,279
Speaker 2: and someone in chat would say something and you say, oh, Dan,

843
00:48:29,400 --> 00:48:31,480
Speaker 2: chat said what about so and so?

844
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:32,719
Speaker 1: Right?

845
00:48:33,000 --> 00:48:35,239
Speaker 2: And then I'd say, oh, what about so and so right?

846
00:48:35,480 --> 00:48:38,480
Speaker 2: And so if you take someone like Rick, okay, if

847
00:48:38,520 --> 00:48:40,360
Speaker 2: there and by the way, again, live may not be

848
00:48:40,400 --> 00:48:44,320
Speaker 2: for everyone, but Rick is a perfect example. Okay. Lots

849
00:48:44,320 --> 00:48:51,000
Speaker 2: of his audience has lots of opinions okay about whatever artists,

850
00:48:51,000 --> 00:48:52,719
Speaker 2: and they have passionate about their artists, and they have

851
00:48:52,800 --> 00:48:56,360
Speaker 2: questions for the artists, and they have ideas okay, and

852
00:48:56,800 --> 00:49:00,759
Speaker 2: views on music that they want to feel part of it. Right.

853
00:49:01,160 --> 00:49:03,960
Speaker 2: If I were Rick, I would think about saying, Okay,

854
00:49:04,040 --> 00:49:07,360
Speaker 2: I'm going to do these these recordings. I'm going to

855
00:49:07,440 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 2: do them live. I'm gonna do you know how we

856
00:49:09,840 --> 00:49:13,600
Speaker 2: said you can do subscriber only chat. If I was Rick,

857
00:49:13,640 --> 00:49:16,480
Speaker 2: I'd probably do subscriber only chat because he's a bigger name,

858
00:49:17,000 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 2: a little more prominent. Okay, So then he's gonna say, oh,

859
00:49:21,000 --> 00:49:23,439
Speaker 2: you want to go ahead and chat during this, okay,

860
00:49:23,520 --> 00:49:26,680
Speaker 2: and ask me questions and have me Okay, here's how

861
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:30,280
Speaker 2: you can do it, okay. There's also features where sometimes

862
00:49:30,280 --> 00:49:33,920
Speaker 2: people say, oh, I can only I can make it

863
00:49:33,960 --> 00:49:36,359
Speaker 2: so that anyone can chat, but I only look at

864
00:49:36,360 --> 00:49:39,240
Speaker 2: the subscriber's chat, if you will, so me as a creator,

865
00:49:39,280 --> 00:49:41,400
Speaker 2: so you can chat with each other, but I the creator,

866
00:49:41,480 --> 00:49:45,840
Speaker 2: only see the subscriber chat, so the subscribers know. And

867
00:49:45,880 --> 00:49:49,520
Speaker 2: then so in addition to the money he makes from YouTube, okay,

868
00:49:49,920 --> 00:49:55,080
Speaker 2: now he's also making money from Twitch, which is you know, additive.

869
00:49:55,800 --> 00:49:59,280
Speaker 2: And the biggest thing is he's getting a closer connection,

870
00:50:00,040 --> 00:50:02,560
Speaker 2: which is fan base that in fact, there's a little

871
00:50:02,600 --> 00:50:06,520
Speaker 2: more intimacy with those people that like him because they

872
00:50:06,520 --> 00:50:08,880
Speaker 2: feel a little more connected with them. And if I

873
00:50:08,920 --> 00:50:10,680
Speaker 2: were him, I would even say, okay, look and at

874
00:50:10,719 --> 00:50:14,960
Speaker 2: the end of the end of what I am doing

875
00:50:16,200 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 2: for the vod that I'm going to put out and

876
00:50:18,040 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 2: distribute to all these people, I'm going to send fifteen minutes.

877
00:50:21,480 --> 00:50:24,680
Speaker 2: Where so, for example, I recently started doing a podcast,

878
00:50:24,800 --> 00:50:27,680
Speaker 2: a live podcast where basically I do it on stream.

879
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:29,960
Speaker 2: At the end of the podcast, I interview someone, then

880
00:50:30,000 --> 00:50:33,120
Speaker 2: I turn it off the podcast and now I just

881
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: talk with chat for a little while right about what

882
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 2: we talked about, any issues and these are this is

883
00:50:39,160 --> 00:50:43,359
Speaker 2: in a very off the cup fashion, Okay, and then

884
00:50:43,400 --> 00:50:47,040
Speaker 2: that creates this connection with your fan base, right, and

885
00:50:47,080 --> 00:50:49,840
Speaker 2: a lot of times it's a source of short form content.

886
00:50:50,160 --> 00:50:53,880
Speaker 1: Okay, there are people once they gather fans, they have

887
00:50:53,880 --> 00:50:57,439
Speaker 1: a fan base, they want to monetize that, live performances, etc.

888
00:50:58,239 --> 00:51:02,840
Speaker 1: Forgetting that, if you have someone who is making seven

889
00:51:02,960 --> 00:51:07,279
Speaker 1: figures from video only on YouTube, and I know we're

890
00:51:07,280 --> 00:51:11,880
Speaker 1: talking completely in the abstract, they might be building community

891
00:51:11,960 --> 00:51:16,200
Speaker 1: on Twitch, but can they make anywhere near that kind

892
00:51:16,239 --> 00:51:16,720
Speaker 1: of money?

893
00:51:17,520 --> 00:51:20,799
Speaker 2: Well, first of all, let's since it's not substitutional as

894
00:51:20,800 --> 00:51:23,080
Speaker 2: opposed to saying can they make anywhere near that type?

895
00:51:23,280 --> 00:51:25,399
Speaker 2: First of all, the answer is yes, they can make

896
00:51:25,440 --> 00:51:28,240
Speaker 2: that near type of money. But the right the simple

897
00:51:28,239 --> 00:51:32,719
Speaker 2: answer is yes, sympatically yes, Okay, But the real question is,

898
00:51:32,800 --> 00:51:35,960
Speaker 2: let's assume they're making seven figures, can they make an

899
00:51:36,000 --> 00:51:41,440
Speaker 2: additional fifty from Twitch? Well, in additional, if you if

900
00:51:41,480 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 2: you got a fifty percent raise prop you're pretty excited.

901
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:50,120
Speaker 2: If it's not half again as much work, okay, so

902
00:51:50,120 --> 00:51:53,839
Speaker 2: so absolutely. And then also the other factor is it

903
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:59,000
Speaker 2: can create this loyalty in your fan base. I'm going

904
00:51:59,000 --> 00:52:02,279
Speaker 2: to make an analogy to music that I'd love to

905
00:52:02,320 --> 00:52:06,360
Speaker 2: go into it at some point with you. This this

906
00:52:06,480 --> 00:52:09,680
Speaker 2: emotional connection between a creator and an artist, and of

907
00:52:09,719 --> 00:52:14,040
Speaker 2: course a musician is a creator okay, and their audience Okay,

908
00:52:14,600 --> 00:52:18,400
Speaker 2: And how much in music now the connection is a

909
00:52:18,440 --> 00:52:22,319
Speaker 2: little more with the platform rather than the artist. And

910
00:52:22,360 --> 00:52:25,279
Speaker 2: in part the interesting analogy is I think music has

911
00:52:25,320 --> 00:52:29,000
Speaker 2: gone more towards short form content because the single on

912
00:52:29,120 --> 00:52:33,640
Speaker 2: Spotify is basically short form content. The album was long

913
00:52:33,680 --> 00:52:37,280
Speaker 2: form content. And I'm sure you love listening to albums,

914
00:52:37,880 --> 00:52:40,160
Speaker 2: and the more I listen or even if you again,

915
00:52:40,160 --> 00:52:42,840
Speaker 2: whether you listen to the physical album or the artifact,

916
00:52:43,920 --> 00:52:46,160
Speaker 2: when you listen to a piece of work from a

917
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,520
Speaker 2: creator which is a long form content, you create a

918
00:52:49,560 --> 00:52:54,760
Speaker 2: stronger emotional bond with that creator. And that's a huge

919
00:52:54,760 --> 00:52:56,440
Speaker 2: part of music, and that's a huge part in the

920
00:52:56,480 --> 00:52:57,839
Speaker 2: creator ecosystem as well.

921
00:52:58,120 --> 00:53:04,520
Speaker 1: Okay, at this point in time, how many I'm gonna

922
00:53:04,560 --> 00:53:08,640
Speaker 1: have a dividing line and people get pissed off of this.

923
00:53:09,160 --> 00:53:13,320
Speaker 1: Their people who are cottage industry, Okay, they put songs

924
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:17,880
Speaker 1: on Spotify, they do a few house concers, God bless them, okay.

925
00:53:18,280 --> 00:53:21,560
Speaker 1: And the other extreme, we have people who either have

926
00:53:21,680 --> 00:53:24,959
Speaker 1: a I'll give three criteria. They could have a major

927
00:53:25,040 --> 00:53:28,400
Speaker 1: labeled deal, they could be in the Spotify top fifty,

928
00:53:28,960 --> 00:53:32,120
Speaker 1: and they could sell five thousand tickets in most markets

929
00:53:32,200 --> 00:53:36,080
Speaker 1: forty markets. How many of those acts are on Twitch?

930
00:53:38,960 --> 00:53:42,480
Speaker 2: This is i'd say, for those acts on Twitch, I

931
00:53:42,480 --> 00:53:46,799
Speaker 2: can't give you an exact number, but I wouldn't say gobs. Okay,

932
00:53:46,800 --> 00:53:49,360
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say gobs of those now in rap and

933
00:53:49,440 --> 00:53:53,839
Speaker 2: hip hop, it's probably larger than any other music venue

934
00:53:53,840 --> 00:53:55,920
Speaker 2: because in rap and hip hop, more and more folks

935
00:53:55,920 --> 00:53:59,120
Speaker 2: have been saying, oh, I need to be using Twitch, okay.

936
00:53:59,239 --> 00:54:02,520
Speaker 2: And so now streams all the time. Ti Dollar Sign

937
00:54:02,880 --> 00:54:05,960
Speaker 2: streams regularly like they'll stream thirty hours a week. Actually

938
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:10,120
Speaker 2: Snoop Dogg streams regularly now too. But so in rap

939
00:54:10,120 --> 00:54:13,839
Speaker 2: and hip hop, it's becoming more commonplace. Outside and rap

940
00:54:13,840 --> 00:54:16,359
Speaker 2: and hip hop, I think most of them, I'd say,

941
00:54:16,520 --> 00:54:21,680
Speaker 2: don't use Twitch as a primary channel as a musician, Okay.

942
00:54:21,880 --> 00:54:27,120
Speaker 1: In the music business, we see these amazing numbers historically

943
00:54:27,760 --> 00:54:29,960
Speaker 1: for concerts on Twitch.

944
00:54:31,080 --> 00:54:31,480
Speaker 2: Massive.

945
00:54:31,560 --> 00:54:32,399
Speaker 1: Tell us about that.

946
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:34,879
Speaker 2: Yeah, So the way I describe that is you get

947
00:54:34,880 --> 00:54:37,560
Speaker 2: these massive numbers for concert. Amazon Music does a number,

948
00:54:39,800 --> 00:54:43,160
Speaker 2: Bad Bunny did a massive concert on Amazon Music. Okay,

949
00:54:44,320 --> 00:54:47,760
Speaker 2: and so that is absolutely a thing, right, big concert

950
00:54:47,800 --> 00:54:51,479
Speaker 2: on Twitch, And there are lots of folks that Again

951
00:54:51,520 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 2: Amazon Music is the most notable, but a lot of

952
00:54:54,080 --> 00:54:56,160
Speaker 2: you know, folks that are putting on concerts use Twitch

953
00:54:56,200 --> 00:54:59,439
Speaker 2: to reach a big audience. And of course that's something

954
00:54:59,520 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 2: I'm I love, I'm excited about. I like as I

955
00:55:04,040 --> 00:55:06,279
Speaker 2: talk to musicians as they think about what they're doing.

956
00:55:06,640 --> 00:55:09,560
Speaker 2: I think of the one of the things that is

957
00:55:09,600 --> 00:55:17,200
Speaker 2: evolving is just putting a concert on Twitch when you're live.

958
00:55:17,760 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 2: It is nice, but it's not so it's certainly not

959
00:55:22,040 --> 00:55:25,399
Speaker 2: as good as being at the physical event, and it's

960
00:55:25,440 --> 00:55:27,920
Speaker 2: not so much better than watching the same thing on

961
00:55:28,040 --> 00:55:32,200
Speaker 2: bod a day later on YouTube. Right, you have to

962
00:55:32,280 --> 00:55:35,919
Speaker 2: create this experience of why does it matter being live?

963
00:55:35,960 --> 00:55:39,440
Speaker 2: And it's not to criticize those things, okay, but I

964
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:42,280
Speaker 2: don't think that is the way to think about live

965
00:55:42,480 --> 00:55:45,839
Speaker 2: if you're a musician, Okay, as the prime In fact,

966
00:55:45,880 --> 00:55:52,200
Speaker 2: that's what happened at during COVID. Of course you couldn't perform,

967
00:55:52,360 --> 00:55:55,000
Speaker 2: and so there's a lot I'm gonna go live, right,

968
00:55:55,280 --> 00:55:57,880
Speaker 2: And all it was doing was taking the same artifact

969
00:55:57,920 --> 00:56:01,760
Speaker 2: that you create in a live concert and bringing to Twitch. Okay.

970
00:56:02,080 --> 00:56:06,200
Speaker 2: And what is more interesting now is as you start

971
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:11,960
Speaker 2: thinking of adapting what you're creating for the for the

972
00:56:12,000 --> 00:56:15,799
Speaker 2: live experience, and I think that is engaging with the

973
00:56:15,840 --> 00:56:19,319
Speaker 2: audience more as opposed to just putting a concert up

974
00:56:19,320 --> 00:56:19,720
Speaker 2: on Twitch.

975
00:56:20,120 --> 00:56:24,279
Speaker 1: Okay. Twitch made investments in music, trying to grow its

976
00:56:24,400 --> 00:56:27,440
Speaker 1: music footprint, and then is pulled back from that. Can

977
00:56:27,480 --> 00:56:29,080
Speaker 1: you tell us about that experience?

978
00:56:29,600 --> 00:56:31,879
Speaker 2: Yeah? In fact, that's at the time what they did

979
00:56:32,280 --> 00:56:38,399
Speaker 2: was basically pay folks to often put their music on Twitch, right,

980
00:56:38,440 --> 00:56:40,440
Speaker 2: if you will. The thing that I'm saying what they

981
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:42,239
Speaker 2: were doing was investing in that.

982
00:56:42,320 --> 00:56:45,920
Speaker 1: Well wait, wait, so we're basically saying they your predecessor,

983
00:56:46,000 --> 00:56:48,600
Speaker 1: not you. Who do you mean by they?

984
00:56:48,680 --> 00:56:50,840
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, they they We? I should say we, but

985
00:56:50,920 --> 00:56:52,560
Speaker 2: it was I was not in charge. I was not

986
00:56:52,600 --> 00:56:54,680
Speaker 2: the same at the time, but it's still we. I

987
00:56:54,719 --> 00:56:56,360
Speaker 2: was still here at the time, so I should say we.

988
00:56:56,880 --> 00:57:00,279
Speaker 2: That's fair. That was that was a mistake we and

989
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 2: what we learned was that was not Sometimes what we

990
00:57:05,560 --> 00:57:07,920
Speaker 2: were doing was saying, if you will, you have this

991
00:57:08,040 --> 00:57:10,920
Speaker 2: idea of a loss leader, pay for something where you

992
00:57:10,960 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 2: lose money. But that's okay. It's going to grow the service, okay,

993
00:57:15,880 --> 00:57:19,360
Speaker 2: So we would pay, but it didn't end up growing

994
00:57:19,360 --> 00:57:22,400
Speaker 2: the service because if you were coming just to watch

995
00:57:22,440 --> 00:57:26,439
Speaker 2: this concert, that didn't mean you'd come back the next

996
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,320
Speaker 2: day for everything else, okay. And what we realized was

997
00:57:30,840 --> 00:57:33,840
Speaker 2: we needed more organic growth than music and this has

998
00:57:33,920 --> 00:57:37,000
Speaker 2: been this actually has been working. Again what I've been

999
00:57:37,000 --> 00:57:41,600
Speaker 2: saying recently, there was a Rolling Stones article saying, you know,

1000
00:57:42,200 --> 00:57:44,760
Speaker 2: if you're looking to break into song and rap and

1001
00:57:44,840 --> 00:57:47,960
Speaker 2: hip hop, you're thinking about how to use Twitch, Okay,

1002
00:57:48,320 --> 00:57:52,600
Speaker 2: And that's because that's grown much more organically than us

1003
00:57:52,680 --> 00:57:54,040
Speaker 2: just going and recruiting people.

1004
00:57:55,000 --> 00:57:59,160
Speaker 1: You're talking to me, But to what degree are you

1005
00:57:59,600 --> 00:58:04,200
Speaker 1: or the company evangelizing amongst artists and record companies?

1006
00:58:04,600 --> 00:58:06,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, a big deal. So one reason I was excited

1007
00:58:06,640 --> 00:58:10,480
Speaker 2: to come on is we started We've had deals with

1008
00:58:10,840 --> 00:58:13,360
Speaker 2: all the major music labels now for a while and

1009
00:58:13,400 --> 00:58:16,400
Speaker 2: also the indies, although it's over the last two years

1010
00:58:16,480 --> 00:58:18,360
Speaker 2: year and a half that they've really been leaning in

1011
00:58:18,400 --> 00:58:22,920
Speaker 2: because they are starting to see the potential of using

1012
00:58:22,960 --> 00:58:26,080
Speaker 2: Twitch as part of what they were doing. And I

1013
00:58:26,080 --> 00:58:30,040
Speaker 2: think the biggest thing that they and we needed to realize.

1014
00:58:30,960 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 2: Initially they looked at Twitch because of course, the labels

1015
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:36,960
Speaker 2: are all looking for discovery, and they look for Twitch

1016
00:58:37,040 --> 00:58:40,200
Speaker 2: for discovery. And the reality is short form is better

1017
00:58:40,240 --> 00:58:45,000
Speaker 2: for discovery, okay. And what they've realized is really Twitch

1018
00:58:45,080 --> 00:58:49,480
Speaker 2: is much better for maintaining your community and your audience

1019
00:58:49,520 --> 00:58:52,800
Speaker 2: once you build it. So the comparison, I'll make the

1020
00:58:52,880 --> 00:58:57,760
Speaker 2: old model used to be, write an album, record it,

1021
00:58:58,960 --> 00:59:01,960
Speaker 2: release the album on tour, and then disappear for a

1022
00:59:02,000 --> 00:59:05,640
Speaker 2: year and a half while you create your next album. Okay.

1023
00:59:05,800 --> 00:59:07,720
Speaker 2: In today's world, you can't disappear for a year and

1024
00:59:07,760 --> 00:59:11,080
Speaker 2: a half. Okay. You need to stay top of mind.

1025
00:59:11,120 --> 00:59:13,840
Speaker 2: That's why many people now are just constantly releasing songs.

1026
00:59:13,880 --> 00:59:16,960
Speaker 2: The album is an artifact, is dissipated because of the

1027
00:59:17,040 --> 00:59:19,440
Speaker 2: nature of these streaming services. Okay, because you have to

1028
00:59:19,480 --> 00:59:21,720
Speaker 2: stay top of mind. So how do you stay top

1029
00:59:21,760 --> 00:59:23,880
Speaker 2: of mind? Well, one thing is everyone's telling you to

1030
00:59:23,880 --> 00:59:27,120
Speaker 2: create short form content. If you're a musician, it's like,

1031
00:59:27,160 --> 00:59:29,120
Speaker 2: oh god, I don't want to create short form content.

1032
00:59:29,160 --> 00:59:31,479
Speaker 2: That's another thing I have to do. What I often

1033
00:59:31,480 --> 00:59:34,400
Speaker 2: tell him is go ahead and stream. Do something you

1034
00:59:34,520 --> 00:59:39,800
Speaker 2: enjoy doing. Kane Brown he gains when he streams because

1035
00:59:39,800 --> 00:59:43,200
Speaker 2: he likes to gain that's what he does when he streams. Okay,

1036
00:59:43,760 --> 00:59:46,280
Speaker 2: Bieber was streaming recently, spending a lot of time and

1037
00:59:46,320 --> 00:59:48,960
Speaker 2: he was playing basketball and doing all sorts of things. Okay.

1038
00:59:50,000 --> 00:59:52,040
Speaker 2: What I and as I said, a lot of musicians,

1039
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:54,600
Speaker 2: Tee Paint has been streaming since twenty sixteen and he'll

1040
00:59:54,640 --> 00:59:57,920
Speaker 2: mix his next album on twitch. Okay. So what I

1041
00:59:57,960 --> 01:00:02,160
Speaker 2: say is find something you like doing, okay, And this

1042
01:00:02,240 --> 01:00:05,479
Speaker 2: is to engage your core audience. And if you're doing

1043
01:00:05,520 --> 01:00:08,240
Speaker 2: something you enjoy doing that connects you with your community,

1044
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:11,760
Speaker 2: then from that you can create short form social media.

1045
01:00:11,840 --> 01:00:14,040
Speaker 2: So it's not just about what you do on Twitch.

1046
01:00:14,600 --> 01:00:17,680
Speaker 2: It's also about how whatever you do on Twitch can

1047
01:00:17,720 --> 01:00:20,520
Speaker 2: become short forms so you maintain stop of mind and

1048
01:00:20,560 --> 01:00:23,800
Speaker 2: you don't disappear for that year and a half, which

1049
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:26,360
Speaker 2: you just can't do anymore. And the labels realize that's

1050
01:00:26,400 --> 01:00:29,040
Speaker 2: important for them for building an audience. So there's a

1051
01:00:29,040 --> 01:00:31,440
Speaker 2: lot more interest to what degree are re evangelizing. I'd

1052
01:00:31,440 --> 01:00:33,800
Speaker 2: say a fair amount. That's you know why I was

1053
01:00:34,760 --> 01:00:37,920
Speaker 2: down in LA when we met each other, because I

1054
01:00:38,000 --> 01:00:41,080
Speaker 2: was down talking to you know, labels and artists, and

1055
01:00:41,480 --> 01:00:43,439
Speaker 2: you know, I'm going to Nashville and April I'm gonna

1056
01:00:43,440 --> 01:00:45,800
Speaker 2: be talking to some folks and we others. We have

1057
01:00:45,800 --> 01:00:48,920
Speaker 2: a team that's designed to bring people to onboard them.

1058
01:00:49,040 --> 01:00:53,040
Speaker 2: So that way, if you are, if you are a influencer, creator,

1059
01:00:53,160 --> 01:00:57,680
Speaker 2: musician that already has some type of a following, we

1060
01:00:57,760 --> 01:00:59,760
Speaker 2: have a team that helps you get started on Twitch,

1061
01:01:00,400 --> 01:01:03,720
Speaker 2: accelerates you to the rev share that we talked about earlier,

1062
01:01:03,720 --> 01:01:05,720
Speaker 2: so that way you can get going, and then also

1063
01:01:05,800 --> 01:01:08,400
Speaker 2: connects you with other creators so that way we can

1064
01:01:08,480 --> 01:01:12,120
Speaker 2: help to encourage this usage.

1065
01:01:19,040 --> 01:01:24,280
Speaker 1: Okay, Originally every act needed a website, Then they needed

1066
01:01:24,320 --> 01:01:27,520
Speaker 1: to be on Wikipedia, then they needed to be on

1067
01:01:27,600 --> 01:01:33,600
Speaker 1: Facebook than Twitter. Now, of course X and people talk

1068
01:01:33,640 --> 01:01:39,200
Speaker 1: about TikTok. Why doesn't every musician have an account and

1069
01:01:39,360 --> 01:01:42,000
Speaker 1: stream some at Twitch.

1070
01:01:46,600 --> 01:01:48,640
Speaker 2: I think it would be good for every musician to

1071
01:01:48,680 --> 01:01:51,560
Speaker 2: do it. I will tell you the ones that are

1072
01:01:51,600 --> 01:01:53,560
Speaker 2: more naturally doing it tends to be a little more

1073
01:01:53,560 --> 01:01:55,440
Speaker 2: of the young ones because if you grew up in

1074
01:01:55,480 --> 01:01:58,200
Speaker 2: a given model of the music scene. But let me

1075
01:01:58,240 --> 01:02:02,240
Speaker 2: tell you why some shouldn't. First second, Okay, as opposed

1076
01:02:02,240 --> 01:02:03,960
Speaker 2: to arguing that everyone should, let me tell you why

1077
01:02:03,960 --> 01:02:10,320
Speaker 2: some shouldn't. For some artists, you create a mystique, you

1078
01:02:10,440 --> 01:02:12,920
Speaker 2: create a character. So I'll pick one as an example,

1079
01:02:12,960 --> 01:02:17,760
Speaker 2: Lady Gotgat, Right, Lady gog Got is this amazing character

1080
01:02:18,440 --> 01:02:21,439
Speaker 2: right that she's created, And I don't know if it's

1081
01:02:21,480 --> 01:02:25,560
Speaker 2: the right thing to lift the veil on that character.

1082
01:02:26,680 --> 01:02:31,479
Speaker 2: Okay that sometimes that's actually a great thing. Okay, other

1083
01:02:31,680 --> 01:02:36,160
Speaker 2: artists are not as such. Right. For example, it's absolutely

1084
01:02:36,200 --> 01:02:38,080
Speaker 2: the case that rap and hip hop there's much more

1085
01:02:38,080 --> 01:02:41,320
Speaker 2: of an intimacy and immediacy, but the same in country music,

1086
01:02:41,360 --> 01:02:43,800
Speaker 2: the same in lots of music, where there's more of

1087
01:02:43,840 --> 01:02:47,480
Speaker 2: this kind of authenticity, this connection all that. So I

1088
01:02:47,560 --> 01:02:51,760
Speaker 2: don't think every artist wants to lower the veil and

1089
01:02:52,200 --> 01:02:55,040
Speaker 2: like just kind of have the rawness that happens in line,

1090
01:02:55,560 --> 01:02:57,800
Speaker 2: but I think for many artists. So one reason is

1091
01:02:57,800 --> 01:03:00,440
Speaker 2: for some artists, if I say this to a label, like,

1092
01:03:00,960 --> 01:03:02,920
Speaker 2: if you're an artist and you like them more as

1093
01:03:02,960 --> 01:03:05,040
Speaker 2: you get to know them more, they're a great person

1094
01:03:05,080 --> 01:03:07,480
Speaker 2: for twitch because their audience are going to like them

1095
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:10,040
Speaker 2: more as they get to know them more. Okay, because

1096
01:03:10,040 --> 01:03:14,320
Speaker 2: you can't hide yourself when you're live, you can't you know,

1097
01:03:14,520 --> 01:03:16,760
Speaker 2: create We all know that part of what happens is

1098
01:03:16,760 --> 01:03:20,080
Speaker 2: we create these images that is not exactly who we are,

1099
01:03:20,480 --> 01:03:22,760
Speaker 2: and you can't keep that up when you're when you're live.

1100
01:03:23,160 --> 01:03:26,400
Speaker 2: So I think for those artists where they're kind of

1101
01:03:26,480 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 2: authentic and intimacy and they want that authenticity with their

1102
01:03:30,080 --> 01:03:32,240
Speaker 2: with their audience as long as they enjoy it, they

1103
01:03:32,240 --> 01:03:34,640
Speaker 2: should absolutely be live stream.

1104
01:03:34,760 --> 01:03:38,720
Speaker 1: Well, going back to your Lady Gaga example, mystery is

1105
01:03:38,760 --> 01:03:42,120
Speaker 1: pretty much history in the music business because you can

1106
01:03:42,160 --> 01:03:46,800
Speaker 1: find out anything about everybody, et cetera. There is hang

1107
01:03:46,960 --> 01:03:50,959
Speaker 1: over in the music business. People don't like the remuneration

1108
01:03:51,160 --> 01:03:54,800
Speaker 1: for recorded music has changed formula. People say, oh, in

1109
01:03:54,880 --> 01:03:58,320
Speaker 1: physical product era, et cetera, we're not going back to that.

1110
01:03:58,800 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 2: Okay, doesn't matter what album Sturgel Simpson releases.

1111
01:04:03,720 --> 01:04:07,880
Speaker 1: The other thing is, especially today now more than ever,

1112
01:04:09,000 --> 01:04:13,600
Speaker 1: the artists are very money focused and they want to

1113
01:04:13,640 --> 01:04:17,960
Speaker 1: sell board tickets. Needless to say, someone like Kim Kardashian

1114
01:04:18,040 --> 01:04:22,600
Speaker 1: is making more money than other than maybe Taylor Swift. Okay,

1115
01:04:23,680 --> 01:04:27,720
Speaker 1: so I don't get the disc This is just my opinion.

1116
01:04:28,240 --> 01:04:33,640
Speaker 1: Twitch still has a exoticism to it. It's still an

1117
01:04:33,760 --> 01:04:39,760
Speaker 1: island offshore. When you know, you get a lot of musicians,

1118
01:04:40,160 --> 01:04:43,040
Speaker 1: you know, they think they have to create something snappy

1119
01:04:43,840 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 1: for short form video content, and then most of them,

1120
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:49,960
Speaker 1: which is just horrible. They let some team do it,

1121
01:04:50,000 --> 01:04:55,640
Speaker 1: which is worthless, right, Okay, I just don't understand why

1122
01:04:55,720 --> 01:04:59,000
Speaker 1: everybody isn't on Twitch. There's a communication.

1123
01:04:59,400 --> 01:05:03,520
Speaker 2: Look, I don't disagree, I think Look, I completely agree.

1124
01:05:03,640 --> 01:05:09,160
Speaker 2: I do think that with short form content, we've been

1125
01:05:09,280 --> 01:05:12,200
Speaker 2: used to this radical change in the industry, right because

1126
01:05:12,240 --> 01:05:17,000
Speaker 2: TikTok and just bam it explodes, right, Okay, I don't

1127
01:05:17,080 --> 01:05:19,680
Speaker 2: think the world changes as quick when it comes to

1128
01:05:20,000 --> 01:05:23,560
Speaker 2: longer form, more intimate connection, because it's not like just

1129
01:05:23,600 --> 01:05:27,320
Speaker 2: show up and suddenly you get success. Okay, So I've

1130
01:05:27,360 --> 01:05:31,720
Speaker 2: seen a massive I will use a comparison. Okay, if

1131
01:05:31,800 --> 01:05:34,640
Speaker 2: I was at if I went to the different parties

1132
01:05:34,640 --> 01:05:39,360
Speaker 2: the week before the Grammys, uh two years ago, and

1133
01:05:39,440 --> 01:05:42,200
Speaker 2: I got introduced, I bet you if you and I

1134
01:05:42,240 --> 01:05:45,920
Speaker 2: we you know David masseyas if two years ago we

1135
01:05:45,920 --> 01:05:48,720
Speaker 2: were at the same event and David introduced me, you

1136
01:05:48,720 --> 01:05:51,960
Speaker 2: wouldn't have been like, oh actually.

1137
01:05:51,600 --> 01:05:55,280
Speaker 1: I would have. But I understand the concept.

1138
01:05:57,840 --> 01:06:01,040
Speaker 2: May you may have you may have end Okay, But

1139
01:06:01,280 --> 01:06:03,200
Speaker 2: and I will tell you the number of times that

1140
01:06:03,240 --> 01:06:05,920
Speaker 2: I'm out there and someone here is I'm the CEO

1141
01:06:05,920 --> 01:06:10,960
Speaker 2: of Twitch they're like, oh, I need to talk to

1142
01:06:11,000 --> 01:06:15,040
Speaker 2: you now, okay, And that is markedly different than two

1143
01:06:15,120 --> 01:06:17,880
Speaker 2: years ago or even one year ago. Literally almost I

1144
01:06:17,920 --> 01:06:20,240
Speaker 2: would say, it's like eighty percent of the people that

1145
01:06:20,400 --> 01:06:23,440
Speaker 2: someone introduced me to somebody, to an artist, to an agent,

1146
01:06:23,480 --> 01:06:26,280
Speaker 2: to someone down there. And the same thing was true

1147
01:06:26,320 --> 01:06:28,520
Speaker 2: when I was at the Super Bowl. Eighty percent of

1148
01:06:28,560 --> 01:06:32,160
Speaker 2: the times I met someone would say oh, like they

1149
01:06:32,200 --> 01:06:34,200
Speaker 2: would peer cup and says, oh, I need to talk

1150
01:06:34,240 --> 01:06:37,920
Speaker 2: to you okay, because I need to understand. So this

1151
01:06:38,120 --> 01:06:42,440
Speaker 2: is happening now. But the reality is it just takes time.

1152
01:06:43,160 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 2: It just takes time. And every you know, every two months.

1153
01:06:46,480 --> 01:06:49,320
Speaker 2: You know, this year at the grammyspread again in Septa

1154
01:06:49,360 --> 01:06:51,840
Speaker 2: and blackwa Max were nominated for Grammy first song they

1155
01:06:51,880 --> 01:06:55,760
Speaker 2: wrote on Twitch, Right, that creates more attention, more attension

1156
01:06:55,760 --> 01:06:58,080
Speaker 2: builds more attention. But it just takes time.

1157
01:06:59,600 --> 01:07:04,000
Speaker 1: Okay. The NBA was the first league to go to Twitter.

1158
01:07:04,080 --> 01:07:07,440
Speaker 1: It lived on Twitter. And as you say, the lifestyle

1159
01:07:07,640 --> 01:07:11,560
Speaker 1: and lives of hip hop artists, that is one of

1160
01:07:11,680 --> 01:07:14,720
Speaker 1: the way you promote the so called air quote brand

1161
01:07:15,880 --> 01:07:19,919
Speaker 1: other artists they're not used to this. Is it a

1162
01:07:19,960 --> 01:07:24,000
Speaker 1: matter of getting Okay, Well, we talk about software. We

1163
01:07:24,040 --> 01:07:27,600
Speaker 1: talk about, Oh, we're talking about killer rap for a platform.

1164
01:07:28,040 --> 01:07:31,680
Speaker 1: Is it a matter of Twitch, of getting some specific

1165
01:07:31,840 --> 01:07:34,960
Speaker 1: artist who is not in that vertical of hip hop

1166
01:07:35,240 --> 01:07:38,080
Speaker 1: or pop to come have a presence on Twitch?

1167
01:07:38,240 --> 01:07:41,840
Speaker 2: Is that what's gonna take? I think what is what happens?

1168
01:07:41,920 --> 01:07:44,600
Speaker 2: Is it sort of it sort of builds. But yes,

1169
01:07:44,840 --> 01:07:47,440
Speaker 2: I think it is somebody starting to do it. I mean,

1170
01:07:47,880 --> 01:07:50,520
Speaker 2: like Bieber did it, and now a lot of folks

1171
01:07:50,600 --> 01:07:52,680
Speaker 2: because Bieber did a lot, more people like, oh maybe

1172
01:07:52,680 --> 01:07:55,240
Speaker 2: I just should do that. Maybe and Bieber really, you know.

1173
01:07:55,520 --> 01:07:59,000
Speaker 1: I'm gonna stop. I'm gonna stop your second Okay. Unlike

1174
01:07:59,080 --> 01:08:03,000
Speaker 1: when I was growning up, everything is niche. Even Taylor

1175
01:08:03,040 --> 01:08:07,960
Speaker 1: Swift is niche. Bieber very big artist, but the vast

1176
01:08:07,960 --> 01:08:11,440
Speaker 1: majority of the public could give a shit, Okay, So

1177
01:08:11,600 --> 01:08:18,719
Speaker 1: therefore Jason is Bell, Chris Stapleton. Yeah, their fans tend

1178
01:08:18,720 --> 01:08:20,400
Speaker 1: not to be Bieber fians. I'm not gonna go through

1179
01:08:20,400 --> 01:08:22,680
Speaker 1: each one. I don't think Don Henley will do.

1180
01:08:22,720 --> 01:08:26,240
Speaker 2: It, but I agree, I agree. This is what i'd say.

1181
01:08:26,400 --> 01:08:29,599
Speaker 2: And let's focus in the And I don't know about

1182
01:08:30,160 --> 01:08:33,080
Speaker 2: your views on the Americana label, so I'll say the

1183
01:08:33,120 --> 01:08:35,479
Speaker 2: Americana and country label. I don't know your views on

1184
01:08:35,520 --> 01:08:39,200
Speaker 2: that right that label, which I'm sure they're strong. I

1185
01:08:39,240 --> 01:08:41,519
Speaker 2: actually think that's In fact, it's one reason why I'm

1186
01:08:41,560 --> 01:08:44,200
Speaker 2: going to Nashville and April. I think it's an extremely

1187
01:08:44,320 --> 01:08:50,920
Speaker 2: well suited genre. Okay. I do think it's gonna need one, two, three,

1188
01:08:51,040 --> 01:08:54,400
Speaker 2: four that start doing it to kind of show people

1189
01:08:54,439 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 2: what what you do on there. Okay. And I don't

1190
01:08:57,560 --> 01:09:00,800
Speaker 2: think in that genre it's quite, but it's gonna be.

1191
01:09:01,000 --> 01:09:03,200
Speaker 2: You know, a few people start doing it and then

1192
01:09:03,240 --> 01:09:06,280
Speaker 2: it's like, oh wow, this is great. Now, I will

1193
01:09:06,320 --> 01:09:09,120
Speaker 2: say this in terms of who is the right person. Okay,

1194
01:09:09,439 --> 01:09:12,640
Speaker 2: this is going to make my point that not everyone

1195
01:09:13,880 --> 01:09:17,240
Speaker 2: is live the right format for them. I'll use an

1196
01:09:17,280 --> 01:09:21,840
Speaker 2: example of someone that of probably my favorite group out

1197
01:09:21,840 --> 01:09:26,880
Speaker 2: there is Turnpike Troubadors. Okay. Having met Evan Falker once,

1198
01:09:26,960 --> 01:09:29,200
Speaker 2: I'm not sure he would enjoy going live. I think

1199
01:09:29,240 --> 01:09:33,200
Speaker 2: it would be work for him. Okay. And so if

1200
01:09:33,240 --> 01:09:35,320
Speaker 2: it's worked for you to be there in front of

1201
01:09:35,320 --> 01:09:39,800
Speaker 2: the camera like off the cuff, then life may not

1202
01:09:39,840 --> 01:09:41,320
Speaker 2: be this. So it's not universal.

1203
01:09:41,680 --> 01:09:45,479
Speaker 1: It's I understand your point, you know, I've come actually

1204
01:09:45,520 --> 01:09:50,200
Speaker 1: coming more to your defense the music world has changed.

1205
01:09:51,320 --> 01:09:54,840
Speaker 1: It's as simple as people. You know, people were songwriters.

1206
01:09:56,120 --> 01:09:57,760
Speaker 1: If they had a song on an album, they made

1207
01:09:57,800 --> 01:09:59,760
Speaker 1: as much money as they made on the hit other

1208
01:09:59,840 --> 01:10:03,840
Speaker 1: than and for radio airplay, etc. Yes, people want to

1209
01:10:03,840 --> 01:10:06,919
Speaker 1: go back to that era. It's never come exactly. Okay,

1210
01:10:07,439 --> 01:10:11,320
Speaker 1: I don't agree more okay. So we have these artists

1211
01:10:11,680 --> 01:10:16,840
Speaker 1: who say I am a songwriter a musician, only most

1212
01:10:16,840 --> 01:10:19,720
Speaker 1: of them tend to be older or tend to be

1213
01:10:19,800 --> 01:10:21,639
Speaker 1: in genres that don't generate.

1214
01:10:21,840 --> 01:10:24,760
Speaker 2: Also, by the way, tend to be established, because you

1215
01:10:24,840 --> 01:10:28,720
Speaker 2: can be that when you are established as a songwriter.

1216
01:10:29,200 --> 01:10:31,920
Speaker 1: You know, listen, I hear from these people all day long.

1217
01:10:32,479 --> 01:10:37,080
Speaker 1: If you're selling out arenas, there's basically no issue. The

1218
01:10:37,120 --> 01:10:40,760
Speaker 1: next step above that is stadiums. It's people who had

1219
01:10:40,800 --> 01:10:42,479
Speaker 1: success in the old era.

1220
01:10:42,640 --> 01:10:45,880
Speaker 2: Oh that's fair, or they and they're not anymore now.

1221
01:10:45,880 --> 01:10:48,160
Speaker 2: They're maybe on an old tour like a right it

1222
01:10:48,200 --> 01:10:49,439
Speaker 2: can start going tour.

1223
01:10:49,920 --> 01:10:55,120
Speaker 1: Their deals were keeping them alive even though the sales

1224
01:10:55,200 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 1: were not as high or the airplay was not as high.

1225
01:10:57,840 --> 01:11:01,960
Speaker 1: So I would pause it that what a musical artist

1226
01:11:02,000 --> 01:11:06,559
Speaker 1: today is not what it was before. Your identity and

1227
01:11:06,720 --> 01:11:09,920
Speaker 1: expressing yourself is part of the whole hate urbina using

1228
01:11:09,920 --> 01:11:12,280
Speaker 1: a holistic view of who you are.

1229
01:11:12,920 --> 01:11:15,960
Speaker 2: I completely agree. I'll take somebody who's past the point

1230
01:11:16,000 --> 01:11:19,080
Speaker 2: of doing it. But let's assume he were fifteen years

1231
01:11:19,120 --> 01:11:22,599
Speaker 2: younger or something like that. Okay, someone like Neil Diamond.

1232
01:11:23,640 --> 01:11:26,920
Speaker 2: To take someone you can imagine someone like him like

1233
01:11:27,479 --> 01:11:31,040
Speaker 2: really building a big audience, and you know, again he's

1234
01:11:31,120 --> 01:11:33,439
Speaker 2: the point now that he can't tour around. But I

1235
01:11:33,479 --> 01:11:34,840
Speaker 2: actually completely agree with you.

1236
01:11:34,920 --> 01:11:37,120
Speaker 1: Well, you know there are some people, some byn like

1237
01:11:37,160 --> 01:11:40,160
Speaker 1: Paul Anka who was on Yeah Bill Maher the other night.

1238
01:11:40,520 --> 01:11:43,879
Speaker 1: He's got a lot of personality, et cetera, Garth Brooks,

1239
01:11:44,120 --> 01:11:46,360
Speaker 1: As I say, is it a matter of getting with you?

1240
01:11:46,640 --> 01:11:48,680
Speaker 1: Is a matter of getting one of those people on.

1241
01:11:48,960 --> 01:11:52,679
Speaker 1: Let's just go sideways for a second. What I'm going

1242
01:11:52,760 --> 01:11:55,679
Speaker 1: to start streaming, not literally, but I'm gonna start streaming

1243
01:11:55,720 --> 01:11:58,720
Speaker 1: on twitch. What are the music rights issue? Can I

1244
01:11:58,760 --> 01:11:59,880
Speaker 1: play any music I watch?

1245
01:12:00,320 --> 01:12:03,559
Speaker 2: Let me go through. That's a great, that's great. So

1246
01:12:04,640 --> 01:12:08,800
Speaker 2: with music rights, first of all, let's go to you

1247
01:12:09,000 --> 01:12:13,439
Speaker 2: playing music, not recorded music. Okay. So we have the

1248
01:12:13,479 --> 01:12:18,639
Speaker 2: publishing rights for live for the live performance of the music. Okay,

1249
01:12:18,800 --> 01:12:21,559
Speaker 2: So when I stream, I do cover songs. We have

1250
01:12:21,600 --> 01:12:28,080
Speaker 2: all those rights, no issue. Okay, if you're playing recorded music. Okay.

1251
01:12:28,200 --> 01:12:33,519
Speaker 2: If you're playing recorded music, okay. So we have an

1252
01:12:33,560 --> 01:12:36,000
Speaker 2: agreement with the labels that is opposed to having to

1253
01:12:36,040 --> 01:12:40,479
Speaker 2: issue a DMCA. They notify us if somebody is playing

1254
01:12:40,520 --> 01:12:42,680
Speaker 2: recorded music that they have a concern with, So that

1255
01:12:42,680 --> 01:12:44,600
Speaker 2: way we can notify them and it doesn't have to

1256
01:12:44,600 --> 01:12:47,920
Speaker 2: go through the DMCA. Okay. In general, right now, the

1257
01:12:48,000 --> 01:12:51,040
Speaker 2: labels aren't so concerned. Now, let me go through a

1258
01:12:51,080 --> 01:12:54,360
Speaker 2: category where we have do full rights for if you're

1259
01:12:54,400 --> 01:12:58,599
Speaker 2: a DJ, or let's assume for a second somebody wanted

1260
01:12:58,640 --> 01:13:02,320
Speaker 2: to do a radio show. Okay, we do have the

1261
01:13:02,360 --> 01:13:05,639
Speaker 2: ability for you to get full rights for the catalog

1262
01:13:05,720 --> 01:13:10,120
Speaker 2: to play them while you're streaming. Okay, it's under particular

1263
01:13:10,160 --> 01:13:12,320
Speaker 2: deal that we have that the labels. Now, a portion

1264
01:13:12,439 --> 01:13:15,200
Speaker 2: of your revenue get shared with the labels. Okay. So

1265
01:13:15,280 --> 01:13:16,920
Speaker 2: if what you want to do is sit on and

1266
01:13:16,960 --> 01:13:21,240
Speaker 2: play recorded music and that's what your creative expression is, okay,

1267
01:13:21,360 --> 01:13:23,200
Speaker 2: you can do that. You just have to sign up.

1268
01:13:23,240 --> 01:13:24,800
Speaker 2: It's a DJ deal. But you don't have to be

1269
01:13:24,800 --> 01:13:27,080
Speaker 2: doing dance music for the DJ deal. Right If I

1270
01:13:27,080 --> 01:13:28,080
Speaker 2: want to play all.

1271
01:13:28,640 --> 01:13:31,559
Speaker 1: So if I'm saying I was driving down the street

1272
01:13:31,560 --> 01:13:34,479
Speaker 1: and I heard this amazing record I'm playing for you. Now,

1273
01:13:35,880 --> 01:13:38,400
Speaker 1: there's not really a deal for that. The label could

1274
01:13:38,400 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: come and say, hey, you know, can't do.

1275
01:13:40,200 --> 01:13:43,120
Speaker 2: That, right, but the labels as long as you're not

1276
01:13:43,400 --> 01:13:45,400
Speaker 2: abusing and like you know and others trying.

1277
01:13:45,200 --> 01:13:49,160
Speaker 1: To wait, let's not talk reality because there are many

1278
01:13:49,200 --> 01:13:52,439
Speaker 1: people see this promotional and then there are certain artists

1279
01:13:52,479 --> 01:13:53,840
Speaker 1: who clamp down no matter.

1280
01:13:54,720 --> 01:13:57,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, okay, we did not, but we we have.

1281
01:13:57,320 --> 01:13:59,479
Speaker 2: We have an agreement where as opposed to need to

1282
01:13:59,560 --> 01:14:01,920
Speaker 2: do DM. The labels can come and work with us.

1283
01:14:02,080 --> 01:14:05,240
Speaker 1: So why don't you have an overall agreement for the recordings.

1284
01:14:07,920 --> 01:14:11,000
Speaker 2: Let's talk about the primary way that people end up

1285
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:14,320
Speaker 2: with music on their stream. Okay, the primary mean isn't

1286
01:14:14,400 --> 01:14:17,000
Speaker 2: is what you kind of said, where music is just

1287
01:14:17,080 --> 01:14:20,320
Speaker 2: sort of in the background. They're gaming and there's some

1288
01:14:20,439 --> 01:14:24,439
Speaker 2: music playing in the background. Okay, it is not a

1289
01:14:24,560 --> 01:14:30,559
Speaker 2: significant portion of their creative expression, which is different from

1290
01:14:30,680 --> 01:14:33,600
Speaker 2: actually a DJ. A DJ to music is a significant

1291
01:14:33,640 --> 01:14:38,960
Speaker 2: portion of their creative expression. And so getting the right

1292
01:14:39,040 --> 01:14:42,240
Speaker 2: deal where in terms of what the REV share split

1293
01:14:42,320 --> 01:14:45,040
Speaker 2: would be when it's not a significant portion, it's just

1294
01:14:45,160 --> 01:14:48,479
Speaker 2: complicated and hasn't been very simple because in general, the

1295
01:14:48,520 --> 01:14:52,640
Speaker 2: labels are used to dealing where the music is a

1296
01:14:52,680 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 2: significant portion of the creative expression, which is exactly why

1297
01:14:56,520 --> 01:14:59,160
Speaker 2: we did the DJ deal. Okay, but if it's in

1298
01:14:59,200 --> 01:15:01,160
Speaker 2: the background, that's we have an agreement that this is

1299
01:15:01,160 --> 01:15:04,040
Speaker 2: an issue. They notify us and so we don't encourage it.

1300
01:15:04,479 --> 01:15:09,839
Speaker 2: But it would be difficult to get the right revenue

1301
01:15:09,840 --> 01:15:11,439
Speaker 2: share split for something like that.

1302
01:15:12,439 --> 01:15:15,080
Speaker 1: Okay, how did you end up as the CEO of Twitch?

1303
01:15:17,160 --> 01:15:21,960
Speaker 2: It's an interesting route. I will go back. Actually, when

1304
01:15:21,960 --> 01:15:26,400
Speaker 2: I was in undergrad I was actually a computer science

1305
01:15:26,400 --> 01:15:27,160
Speaker 2: and theater major.

1306
01:15:27,840 --> 01:15:31,280
Speaker 1: And so if we're going back to the beginning, where

1307
01:15:31,280 --> 01:15:32,000
Speaker 1: did you grow up?

1308
01:15:32,720 --> 01:15:34,200
Speaker 2: I grew up in New Orleans.

1309
01:15:34,720 --> 01:15:36,360
Speaker 1: And what did your parents do for a living?

1310
01:15:37,360 --> 01:15:41,479
Speaker 2: My dad was sort of in consulting type of stuff.

1311
01:15:41,479 --> 01:15:43,639
Speaker 2: He had been an engineer and then he did some consulting.

1312
01:15:43,760 --> 01:15:46,639
Speaker 2: And my mom raised seven kids and also was heavily

1313
01:15:46,680 --> 01:15:48,920
Speaker 2: involved in politics too.

1314
01:15:49,760 --> 01:15:51,640
Speaker 1: Except where are you in the hierarchy?

1315
01:15:52,080 --> 01:15:55,160
Speaker 2: I'm the well, I'm the second oldest, but my dad

1316
01:15:55,200 --> 01:15:58,920
Speaker 2: died before I was born. Actually, my dad was flying

1317
01:15:58,960 --> 01:16:02,920
Speaker 2: home to see my mom on Father's Day, and you know,

1318
01:16:03,160 --> 01:16:07,040
Speaker 2: you plane that he was flying assessminent type thing, any crash.

1319
01:16:07,360 --> 01:16:09,280
Speaker 2: And then my mom remarried and I have five younger

1320
01:16:09,320 --> 01:16:13,920
Speaker 2: brothers and sisters, and so yeah, I'm one of the

1321
01:16:13,960 --> 01:16:14,559
Speaker 2: older ones.

1322
01:16:14,760 --> 01:16:18,639
Speaker 1: Okay, you are as I say, I'm self editing, because

1323
01:16:18,680 --> 01:16:22,360
Speaker 1: people have such reactions to these terms, like successful, you

1324
01:16:23,160 --> 01:16:25,439
Speaker 1: are very successful. What happened to the other six?

1325
01:16:28,120 --> 01:16:30,439
Speaker 2: Ally? My brother, Well, that actually is one of the

1326
01:16:30,439 --> 01:16:32,320
Speaker 2: stories I was gonna tell, because there's a whole different

1327
01:16:32,320 --> 01:16:35,360
Speaker 2: world where I became a creative So my brother. I

1328
01:16:35,400 --> 01:16:37,400
Speaker 2: have one brother who runs a theater in New York

1329
01:16:37,560 --> 01:16:41,400
Speaker 2: called The Drilling Company, and he's been an actor and

1330
01:16:41,640 --> 01:16:43,920
Speaker 2: you know, trying to make ends meet as an actor

1331
01:16:43,960 --> 01:16:46,559
Speaker 2: his whole life. He's one year older than me. I

1332
01:16:46,560 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 2: have a sister who still does a lot of acting

1333
01:16:48,680 --> 01:16:52,200
Speaker 2: and performance. I have another brother different last name than me.

1334
01:16:52,280 --> 01:16:54,800
Speaker 2: By the way, my younger siblings have different last names.

1335
01:16:55,120 --> 01:16:59,200
Speaker 2: Who's the CEO of the Fred Rogers Company, which is

1336
01:16:59,320 --> 01:17:01,840
Speaker 2: very much a you know, part of that creative bank, right,

1337
01:17:03,160 --> 01:17:05,360
Speaker 2: so you know, in different things. And his sister lives

1338
01:17:05,400 --> 01:17:10,880
Speaker 2: in North Carolina. Another sister who's a lawyer that lives

1339
01:17:10,880 --> 01:17:17,519
Speaker 2: in Colorado, so sort of across the board mishmash your father.

1340
01:17:17,880 --> 01:17:22,439
Speaker 1: You literally not knowing your father to what degree? Is

1341
01:17:22,479 --> 01:17:25,160
Speaker 1: there an emotional hangover there and you have to work

1342
01:17:25,240 --> 01:17:25,759
Speaker 1: that through.

1343
01:17:26,840 --> 01:17:29,920
Speaker 2: Yeah. The interesting thing was since I grew up in

1344
01:17:29,960 --> 01:17:33,559
Speaker 2: my mind having a father, right because when I went

1345
01:17:33,640 --> 01:17:36,240
Speaker 2: my mom was remarried by the time I was two

1346
01:17:36,320 --> 01:17:40,360
Speaker 2: and a half, right, Okay, So in my mind I

1347
01:17:40,400 --> 01:17:42,679
Speaker 2: have had a father and he's been a wonderful father.

1348
01:17:42,800 --> 01:17:46,000
Speaker 2: He's cared for me everything, So I don't have this

1349
01:17:46,160 --> 01:17:49,680
Speaker 2: hangover from when I was young, if you will. The

1350
01:17:49,800 --> 01:17:53,960
Speaker 2: interesting part is you I have had to find out

1351
01:17:53,960 --> 01:17:57,439
Speaker 2: more about who I am because biologically I'm very different

1352
01:17:57,640 --> 01:18:04,599
Speaker 2: than the father who raised me. Okay, my birth father,

1353
01:18:06,240 --> 01:18:08,720
Speaker 2: he's Irish. He has a brother that lives in New

1354
01:18:08,800 --> 01:18:11,320
Speaker 2: York who's a sculptor, who's the only member of his

1355
01:18:11,360 --> 01:18:14,240
Speaker 2: family that I've had a connection to. There's a lot

1356
01:18:14,280 --> 01:18:16,960
Speaker 2: of similarities from talking to my uncle about me and

1357
01:18:17,000 --> 01:18:21,680
Speaker 2: my birth father. My mom actually didn't talk about my

1358
01:18:21,760 --> 01:18:24,160
Speaker 2: birth father almost at all when I was growing up

1359
01:18:24,880 --> 01:18:28,920
Speaker 2: because the emotional trauma of losing him when she had,

1360
01:18:29,280 --> 01:18:31,320
Speaker 2: you know, one baby and another one on the way,

1361
01:18:31,360 --> 01:18:33,240
Speaker 2: and she was only like a month pregnant with me

1362
01:18:33,439 --> 01:18:36,160
Speaker 2: when he died, and so nobody knew that she was

1363
01:18:36,200 --> 01:18:39,200
Speaker 2: pregnant when she got the news that he had passed away.

1364
01:18:40,840 --> 01:18:43,200
Speaker 2: That so she just couldn't deal with it, so she

1365
01:18:43,240 --> 01:18:45,160
Speaker 2: wouldn't talk about my dad at all. So it's only

1366
01:18:45,200 --> 01:18:49,120
Speaker 2: as I've gotten older that I've gotten to know my

1367
01:18:49,280 --> 01:18:51,800
Speaker 2: father by talking to my uncle, by doing all sorts

1368
01:18:51,840 --> 01:18:54,920
Speaker 2: of things. So it's more and then I find out

1369
01:18:54,920 --> 01:18:59,320
Speaker 2: things about myself that I realize, huh, that's probably that's

1370
01:18:59,479 --> 01:19:02,040
Speaker 2: you know, that's part of my father that is still

1371
01:19:02,080 --> 01:19:05,320
Speaker 2: in me somewhere. But it's not that I have like

1372
01:19:06,720 --> 01:19:13,479
Speaker 2: any baggage from not having a father. It's more this

1373
01:19:13,680 --> 01:19:18,160
Speaker 2: interesting exploration of finding out who this person was.

1374
01:19:18,880 --> 01:19:20,759
Speaker 1: Do you go to public school or private school?

1375
01:19:21,760 --> 01:19:24,400
Speaker 2: I went to public school until fifth grade, and then

1376
01:19:24,439 --> 01:19:26,680
Speaker 2: I went to in New Orleans, most people go to

1377
01:19:26,760 --> 01:19:29,200
Speaker 2: all boys or all female Catholic schools. So I went

1378
01:19:29,240 --> 01:19:32,080
Speaker 2: to an all male Catholic school through fifth through eighth

1379
01:19:32,080 --> 01:19:33,280
Speaker 2: grade and then in high school.

1380
01:19:34,320 --> 01:19:37,840
Speaker 1: To what degree? Did that indoctrination fuck you up?

1381
01:19:42,360 --> 01:19:46,080
Speaker 2: So? New Orleans is like seventy percent Catholic, okay, And

1382
01:19:47,280 --> 01:19:50,479
Speaker 2: you know, I'd like to think it didn't. I've been

1383
01:19:50,520 --> 01:19:52,559
Speaker 2: able to handle it well I have a very healthy

1384
01:19:52,680 --> 01:19:56,559
Speaker 2: attitude towards all that. It is funny, I've been thinking

1385
01:19:56,560 --> 01:19:59,600
Speaker 2: about that lately. Where I am. I do not practice

1386
01:20:00,800 --> 01:20:04,160
Speaker 2: catholow Simmary religion. And I always think, you know, if

1387
01:20:04,200 --> 01:20:07,800
Speaker 2: somebody is sharing the words of Jesus Christ, there's a

1388
01:20:07,840 --> 01:20:09,720
Speaker 2: lot to be learned there. Then there's a lot to

1389
01:20:09,720 --> 01:20:13,800
Speaker 2: be shared there. If they're preaching the Old Testament, I

1390
01:20:13,800 --> 01:20:16,640
Speaker 2: don't know, that's a different story. But so I have

1391
01:20:16,680 --> 01:20:19,360
Speaker 2: a very healthy attitude. I kind of went through this

1392
01:20:19,880 --> 01:20:22,720
Speaker 2: path or I have a very healthy attitude towards all

1393
01:20:22,760 --> 01:20:25,200
Speaker 2: the good things, even though there are lots of challenges too.

1394
01:20:26,000 --> 01:20:27,839
Speaker 1: So were you the smartest kid in the class?

1395
01:20:30,040 --> 01:20:31,800
Speaker 2: I did pretty well. But I will tell you one

1396
01:20:31,800 --> 01:20:34,759
Speaker 2: of those stories I love to tell. Interestingly, this relates

1397
01:20:34,760 --> 01:20:38,439
Speaker 2: to streaming. So one thing that I realized about a

1398
01:20:38,479 --> 01:20:41,720
Speaker 2: year ago. And my kids always told me they all

1399
01:20:41,760 --> 01:20:46,760
Speaker 2: identify as having ADHD. Okay, And they said, oh, Dad,

1400
01:20:46,760 --> 01:20:48,800
Speaker 2: we think you have ADHDM. It's like, what do you mean,

1401
01:20:48,920 --> 01:20:52,200
Speaker 2: I have a PhD in Ai. I went to Duke like,

1402
01:20:52,280 --> 01:20:55,160
Speaker 2: I did really well, I don't have ADHD. Like, okay,

1403
01:20:55,200 --> 01:20:56,760
Speaker 2: do you have ADHD? I said no, I don't. And

1404
01:20:56,760 --> 01:20:59,200
Speaker 2: then I read more about Adhd and then I realized,

1405
01:20:59,360 --> 01:21:02,120
Speaker 2: and I look back to my childhood and I realized,

1406
01:21:02,160 --> 01:21:06,080
Speaker 2: I'm a poster child Adhd. Okay on the spectrum, and

1407
01:21:06,120 --> 01:21:08,040
Speaker 2: in fact, this is one thing we can get back

1408
01:21:08,080 --> 01:21:10,880
Speaker 2: to this. Most streamers you find are because they have

1409
01:21:10,920 --> 01:21:14,080
Speaker 2: this superpower of their mind being able to process multiple

1410
01:21:14,160 --> 01:21:17,920
Speaker 2: things at once. But I tell this story because in

1411
01:21:18,000 --> 01:21:21,719
Speaker 2: fourth grade I was having trouble. I wasn't doing well

1412
01:21:21,760 --> 01:21:24,760
Speaker 2: in school. And then I went to fifth grade at

1413
01:21:24,760 --> 01:21:27,360
Speaker 2: this Christian Brothers all boys school and my parents had

1414
01:21:27,400 --> 01:21:30,720
Speaker 2: to talk my way in because I wasn't doing very

1415
01:21:30,720 --> 01:21:33,120
Speaker 2: well in fourth grade. My brother was already there and

1416
01:21:33,160 --> 01:21:35,120
Speaker 2: they had to push me to get into what was

1417
01:21:35,160 --> 01:21:38,960
Speaker 2: the better of the three classes with this guy, brother Gregory,

1418
01:21:39,360 --> 01:21:41,599
Speaker 2: and this teacher. The way he taught was he had

1419
01:21:41,680 --> 01:21:44,559
Speaker 2: something that he called good Marks where he gave out

1420
01:21:44,600 --> 01:21:48,000
Speaker 2: what basically were credits okay, And at the end of

1421
01:21:48,000 --> 01:21:50,640
Speaker 2: every week he had a Jeopardy game to learn the

1422
01:21:50,680 --> 01:21:52,479
Speaker 2: stuff you were supposed to learn that week, and you

1423
01:21:52,479 --> 01:21:54,439
Speaker 2: were quizzed on this stuff for that week, and if

1424
01:21:54,439 --> 01:21:56,919
Speaker 2: you won Jeopardy, you got ice cream to play football.

1425
01:21:56,960 --> 01:21:59,080
Speaker 2: Then you got good Marks, and at the end of

1426
01:21:59,080 --> 01:22:02,599
Speaker 2: the semester, you could spend the good marks on this

1427
01:22:02,600 --> 01:22:05,640
Speaker 2: this like, uh, everybody brought in their old toys and

1428
01:22:05,680 --> 01:22:09,439
Speaker 2: they bought you know, an exchange. Anyway, he gained a

1429
01:22:09,479 --> 01:22:13,360
Speaker 2: fied learning for me, and I went from being barely

1430
01:22:13,439 --> 01:22:15,040
Speaker 2: in there to be one of the top two or

1431
01:22:15,040 --> 01:22:18,719
Speaker 2: three kids in the class because he basically turned learning

1432
01:22:18,760 --> 01:22:22,240
Speaker 2: into a game, which was like a poster child of

1433
01:22:22,280 --> 01:22:24,960
Speaker 2: what you need to do for someone with ADHD. And

1434
01:22:25,000 --> 01:22:27,679
Speaker 2: then once I had the confidence that I was smart,

1435
01:22:27,800 --> 01:22:31,479
Speaker 2: because then I thought of myself as smart. So then

1436
01:22:31,520 --> 01:22:35,240
Speaker 2: I kept performing. But I needed to think of myself

1437
01:22:35,280 --> 01:22:38,679
Speaker 2: as smart. And the only way I thought of myself

1438
01:22:38,680 --> 01:22:41,040
Speaker 2: as smart is because I just happened to have this

1439
01:22:41,160 --> 01:22:44,120
Speaker 2: teacher at the perfect time that taught in a non

1440
01:22:44,160 --> 01:22:46,920
Speaker 2: traditional way. So yes, I was one of the top

1441
01:22:47,000 --> 01:22:50,320
Speaker 2: kids in the class, but it wasn't it was by

1442
01:22:50,439 --> 01:22:52,240
Speaker 2: chance that everything worked out for me.

1443
01:23:00,080 --> 01:23:03,360
Speaker 1: And where does the theater angle come from.

1444
01:23:03,520 --> 01:23:06,120
Speaker 2: My brother was into theater. I got into theater. And

1445
01:23:06,160 --> 01:23:08,040
Speaker 2: the only reason I mention it is because it's this

1446
01:23:08,240 --> 01:23:12,080
Speaker 2: interesting twist with twitch because when you ask about how

1447
01:23:12,120 --> 01:23:15,160
Speaker 2: did I get here, right, I've spent most of my career,

1448
01:23:15,400 --> 01:23:19,320
Speaker 2: all of my career in the technical space. After a duke,

1449
01:23:19,400 --> 01:23:21,880
Speaker 2: I worked in a technical capacity. Then I got a

1450
01:23:21,880 --> 01:23:26,360
Speaker 2: PhD in AI. Then I worked at NASA leading their

1451
01:23:26,360 --> 01:23:29,640
Speaker 2: autonomy and robotics group in AI. And then I was

1452
01:23:29,680 --> 01:23:31,799
Speaker 2: at Google and YouTube, and I was at a startup

1453
01:23:31,840 --> 01:23:33,880
Speaker 2: next door. So basically I've spent my whole life in

1454
01:23:33,920 --> 01:23:39,240
Speaker 2: a technical product and engineering role. Okay, but am I root?

1455
01:23:39,640 --> 01:23:42,519
Speaker 2: I'm really a creative and in a different world. If

1456
01:23:42,520 --> 01:23:44,680
Speaker 2: I were coming out today as opposed to using my

1457
01:23:44,760 --> 01:23:48,599
Speaker 2: mask skills, I could every much found myself being a creative.

1458
01:23:48,680 --> 01:23:50,680
Speaker 2: And I've also always been a music fan. I had

1459
01:23:50,680 --> 01:23:53,759
Speaker 2: a thousand albums. I taught myself to play the piano.

1460
01:23:55,040 --> 01:23:58,400
Speaker 2: So there's a different life where I didn't go technical

1461
01:23:58,520 --> 01:24:02,320
Speaker 2: and I did something in news are in creative expression.

1462
01:24:02,760 --> 01:24:04,880
Speaker 2: And the thing I love about Twitch is it is

1463
01:24:04,960 --> 01:24:07,920
Speaker 2: this perfect bringing together of these two sides of my

1464
01:24:08,000 --> 01:24:10,839
Speaker 2: life that I did not I could not have predicted.

1465
01:24:10,920 --> 01:24:14,439
Speaker 2: It brings together my sort of business product technical skills

1466
01:24:15,080 --> 01:24:19,920
Speaker 2: with my creative uh you know, DNA. That has always

1467
01:24:19,920 --> 01:24:21,600
Speaker 2: been a big part of who I am.

1468
01:24:22,120 --> 01:24:27,160
Speaker 1: Okay, AI is the buzz term of today, isn't it.

1469
01:24:27,280 --> 01:24:30,200
Speaker 1: What What was AI like when you were getting your degree?

1470
01:24:32,320 --> 01:24:34,719
Speaker 2: So interesting. A lot of what has become the foundation

1471
01:24:34,800 --> 01:24:38,040
Speaker 2: of AI was part of AI back then. Okay. The

1472
01:24:38,120 --> 01:24:41,160
Speaker 2: interesting thing that there is this battle back then between

1473
01:24:41,160 --> 01:24:45,559
Speaker 2: two approaches to AI. One was the symbolic AI that

1474
01:24:45,680 --> 01:24:48,679
Speaker 2: tried to represent things in the way we think about

1475
01:24:48,680 --> 01:24:52,040
Speaker 2: how we think, Okay, so they tried to explicitly represent

1476
01:24:52,680 --> 01:24:56,439
Speaker 2: information and all that. And then the other was statistical AI,

1477
01:24:57,000 --> 01:24:59,439
Speaker 2: where they just had all sorts of data and they

1478
01:24:59,600 --> 01:25:02,439
Speaker 2: learned these complex models, which a neural net is the

1479
01:25:02,439 --> 01:25:05,160
Speaker 2: foundation of. And back then there was this battle of

1480
01:25:05,200 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 2: which type of AI would win. By the time I graduated,

1481
01:25:09,120 --> 01:25:11,519
Speaker 2: it was clear who was going to win. Statistical AI

1482
01:25:11,680 --> 01:25:14,800
Speaker 2: was going to win, okay, and statistical AI has been

1483
01:25:14,840 --> 01:25:18,280
Speaker 2: the thing that has dominated Okay. But the interesting thing

1484
01:25:18,400 --> 01:25:22,479
Speaker 2: is a lot of what people talked about then we

1485
01:25:22,479 --> 01:25:25,160
Speaker 2: were talking about the world that now exists, but we

1486
01:25:25,200 --> 01:25:29,000
Speaker 2: could never deliver on that, and only now because of

1487
01:25:29,000 --> 01:25:32,800
Speaker 2: some algorithmic improvements, but also because of a massive amount

1488
01:25:32,840 --> 01:25:38,000
Speaker 2: of data combined with computing. If another way to say this,

1489
01:25:38,080 --> 01:25:41,200
Speaker 2: if the World Wide Web never occurred, we wouldn't be

1490
01:25:41,240 --> 01:25:43,680
Speaker 2: where we're at with AI. One of the reasons we're

1491
01:25:43,720 --> 01:25:46,400
Speaker 2: at with the AI is because this thing occurred, carled

1492
01:25:46,400 --> 01:25:50,120
Speaker 2: the World Wide Web, which creative these massive data sets,

1493
01:25:50,560 --> 01:25:53,439
Speaker 2: and these massive data sets then allowed the algorithms to

1494
01:25:53,479 --> 01:25:55,160
Speaker 2: work in ways that previously they could.

1495
01:25:55,920 --> 01:26:01,200
Speaker 1: Okay, did you literally have a PhD? There certain experts

1496
01:26:01,240 --> 01:26:04,280
Speaker 1: who say this is a dead end the way we're

1497
01:26:04,320 --> 01:26:08,200
Speaker 1: doing it. If it's gonna start talking about thinking like

1498
01:26:08,320 --> 01:26:10,920
Speaker 1: people were at least thirty years off, what's your take

1499
01:26:10,960 --> 01:26:11,320
Speaker 1: on that?

1500
01:26:15,400 --> 01:26:17,680
Speaker 2: So this, I mean, I'm gonna try to be shorten this.

1501
01:26:18,240 --> 01:26:18,639
Speaker 1: Okay.

1502
01:26:20,600 --> 01:26:26,000
Speaker 2: We think that people think very logically and rationally. Okay,

1503
01:26:26,200 --> 01:26:28,439
Speaker 2: but they don't. But they don't. I don't know. Have

1504
01:26:28,479 --> 01:26:30,280
Speaker 2: you ever read about the system one brain and the

1505
01:26:30,320 --> 01:26:31,120
Speaker 2: system to brain?

1506
01:26:31,640 --> 01:26:31,760
Speaker 1: No?

1507
01:26:32,439 --> 01:26:35,240
Speaker 2: Okay, So all the research are your system one brain

1508
01:26:35,360 --> 01:26:38,960
Speaker 2: is your gut, your instincts, your intuition, all of that. Okay.

1509
01:26:39,080 --> 01:26:42,639
Speaker 2: Your system to brain is your reasoning and logic. Okay.

1510
01:26:43,400 --> 01:26:46,479
Speaker 2: All the evidence suggests that the primary usage of our

1511
01:26:46,520 --> 01:26:49,720
Speaker 2: system to brain are reasoning and logic is to come

1512
01:26:49,800 --> 01:26:53,879
Speaker 2: up with a plausible justification of the answer that pops

1513
01:26:53,880 --> 01:26:55,880
Speaker 2: into our head with our system one brain. As soon

1514
01:26:55,920 --> 01:27:00,240
Speaker 2: as you ask the question, okay, so what do you

1515
01:27:00,240 --> 01:27:03,200
Speaker 2: think about Sturgil Simpson releasing just an album and not

1516
01:27:03,400 --> 01:27:06,080
Speaker 2: an answer pops into your head. I think it's stupid.

1517
01:27:06,120 --> 01:27:09,080
Speaker 2: I think it's a great idea. Okay, then your system

1518
01:27:09,120 --> 01:27:12,360
Speaker 2: two brains explains that, and we think the reason we

1519
01:27:12,439 --> 01:27:15,160
Speaker 2: believe this is for all these good reasons, it's bullshit

1520
01:27:15,640 --> 01:27:17,800
Speaker 2: ninety five percent of the time. Which is one reason

1521
01:27:17,840 --> 01:27:19,439
Speaker 2: why we have the divide in the country we have

1522
01:27:20,160 --> 01:27:23,120
Speaker 2: is because you watch the same video to people's system,

1523
01:27:23,160 --> 01:27:25,360
Speaker 2: one brain tells them two different things, and then they

1524
01:27:25,400 --> 01:27:30,280
Speaker 2: try to justify. So the way humans think is through

1525
01:27:30,400 --> 01:27:35,320
Speaker 2: all this compiled thing, and so interestingly, that is the

1526
01:27:35,320 --> 01:27:38,360
Speaker 2: way AI is working now. So I actually think this

1527
01:27:38,479 --> 01:27:40,920
Speaker 2: idea that AI doesn't work the way humans brains thinks.

1528
01:27:40,960 --> 01:27:44,080
Speaker 2: I think it does work the way human brains thinks. Okay,

1529
01:27:44,439 --> 01:27:48,040
Speaker 2: I still think we are a long way. I think

1530
01:27:48,080 --> 01:27:52,280
Speaker 2: there is a vast misunderstanding of the complexity of human intelligence.

1531
01:27:54,040 --> 01:27:56,720
Speaker 2: I think that we think of the primary form of

1532
01:27:56,800 --> 01:28:01,400
Speaker 2: human intelligence as doing really hard math problems. Okay, But

1533
01:28:01,760 --> 01:28:05,120
Speaker 2: the really unique part about human intelligence is our ability

1534
01:28:05,200 --> 01:28:09,519
Speaker 2: to coordinate, cooperate, think about each other, you know, interact

1535
01:28:09,560 --> 01:28:12,559
Speaker 2: with each other. Okay, And that allows us to function

1536
01:28:12,680 --> 01:28:15,439
Speaker 2: as a unit. And I don't think AI has any

1537
01:28:15,560 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 2: data on that. So I believe that we keep projecting

1538
01:28:18,840 --> 01:28:22,400
Speaker 2: the advances in AI to continue like this, it's gonna

1539
01:28:23,320 --> 01:28:27,760
Speaker 2: asymptote okay. And I think this idea that AI will

1540
01:28:27,800 --> 01:28:29,800
Speaker 2: replace human beings, I think we still have a long

1541
01:28:29,840 --> 01:28:32,200
Speaker 2: way to go. And the people that like to tell

1542
01:28:32,240 --> 01:28:34,240
Speaker 2: you that are the ones that are trying to get

1543
01:28:34,320 --> 01:28:37,559
Speaker 2: lots of funding in AI. And also usually they're the

1544
01:28:37,600 --> 01:28:41,480
Speaker 2: math folks that tend to think the pinnacle of intelligence

1545
01:28:41,520 --> 01:28:44,679
Speaker 2: is doing hard maath, which I don't think the pinnacle

1546
01:28:44,680 --> 01:28:46,920
Speaker 2: of human intelligence is doing hard math. I think the

1547
01:28:46,960 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 2: pinnacle of human intelligence is all the complex interactions of

1548
01:28:51,040 --> 01:28:53,479
Speaker 2: humans doing all sorts of stuff with other humans.

1549
01:28:55,080 --> 01:28:59,640
Speaker 1: This is a really subsidiary point to your excellent delineation

1550
01:28:59,800 --> 01:29:07,240
Speaker 1: of the landscape. But math is one thing the present

1551
01:29:07,320 --> 01:29:12,200
Speaker 1: models hallucinate such that you know, I find mistakes all

1552
01:29:12,240 --> 01:29:15,439
Speaker 1: the time. Is that something that you feel can be

1553
01:29:15,520 --> 01:29:16,680
Speaker 1: conquered in the short.

1554
01:29:16,479 --> 01:29:27,280
Speaker 2: Term, the degree that it happens will be improved, Okay,

1555
01:29:28,600 --> 01:29:34,280
Speaker 2: But the short answer is so the egregious examples, yes,

1556
01:29:35,640 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 2: the non egregious examples are non And the problem comes

1557
01:29:40,360 --> 01:29:44,599
Speaker 2: in is AI is like that trend of yours who

1558
01:29:44,640 --> 01:29:49,519
Speaker 2: thinks they're an expert in everything okay, and they speak

1559
01:29:49,560 --> 01:29:53,280
Speaker 2: with such great authority that you actually think they are right.

1560
01:29:54,280 --> 01:29:58,479
Speaker 2: Oh yay, because they speak with such great authority that

1561
01:29:58,560 --> 01:30:01,280
Speaker 2: you think they know everything, and the reality is they're

1562
01:30:01,280 --> 01:30:05,920
Speaker 2: bullshitting you and they don't, and really you're being wrong.

1563
01:30:06,000 --> 01:30:09,160
Speaker 2: So like, I'm trying to fix this Watt bike I

1564
01:30:09,280 --> 01:30:12,080
Speaker 2: have that's like this exercise bike and it's not working.

1565
01:30:12,120 --> 01:30:14,920
Speaker 2: And I use AI and it talks with so much

1566
01:30:14,960 --> 01:30:18,160
Speaker 2: authority that I think that it knows exactly the problem,

1567
01:30:18,240 --> 01:30:21,599
Speaker 2: and actually it's taking me down dead end trail.

1568
01:30:22,080 --> 01:30:25,240
Speaker 3: Okay, but it is so confident, and I know that

1569
01:30:25,400 --> 01:30:28,479
Speaker 3: sometimes because I'll ask questions and then like sometimes I

1570
01:30:28,600 --> 01:30:31,599
Speaker 3: use ai'd ask questions about twitch stuff and they'll tell

1571
01:30:31,640 --> 01:30:33,320
Speaker 3: me an answer with absolute confidence.

1572
01:30:33,360 --> 01:30:36,760
Speaker 2: I'm like, they completely got this wrong, okay, but they

1573
01:30:36,800 --> 01:30:40,880
Speaker 2: misunderstood it. So I guess that it's the ones that

1574
01:30:41,120 --> 01:30:44,800
Speaker 2: are great fodder to put on a headline. I think

1575
01:30:44,840 --> 01:30:47,840
Speaker 2: we can solve that. The ones that we won't solve

1576
01:30:48,240 --> 01:30:51,559
Speaker 2: are these ones that you only know if you know

1577
01:30:51,680 --> 01:30:54,479
Speaker 2: something about the area and you know that it is

1578
01:30:55,080 --> 01:30:55,720
Speaker 2: bullshitting you.

1579
01:30:56,960 --> 01:31:01,880
Speaker 1: Okay. Even in the Washington Post today, certain financial people

1580
01:31:01,960 --> 01:31:07,360
Speaker 1: believe that the market is up. There's investment in AI companies,

1581
01:31:07,840 --> 01:31:13,719
Speaker 1: but in realay productivity has not increased whatsoever. Okay. In addition,

1582
01:31:14,000 --> 01:31:18,960
Speaker 1: having lived for a while, it's been constant reports to

1583
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:22,280
Speaker 1: the paper, maybe the market's going to crash. Is this

1584
01:31:22,360 --> 01:31:25,280
Speaker 1: a winner take all business? There's so much investment in

1585
01:31:25,360 --> 01:31:28,320
Speaker 1: open AI that they could never make their money back.

1586
01:31:28,960 --> 01:31:29,960
Speaker 1: What's your take here?

1587
01:31:33,960 --> 01:31:39,599
Speaker 2: So two things can be true at once. AI can

1588
01:31:39,720 --> 01:31:43,040
Speaker 2: have a massive impact on the world we live in

1589
01:31:43,040 --> 01:31:46,639
Speaker 2: in the future, and it can be overhyped. Right now,

1590
01:31:48,280 --> 01:31:53,240
Speaker 2: I'd say both are almost certainly true. And in fact,

1591
01:31:53,280 --> 01:31:55,479
Speaker 2: anything that is going to have a massive impact on

1592
01:31:55,520 --> 01:32:00,280
Speaker 2: the world will almost certainly be overhyped because that is

1593
01:32:00,280 --> 01:32:03,280
Speaker 2: the very nature of the world we live in. Okay.

1594
01:32:03,520 --> 01:32:06,360
Speaker 2: So I guess this is what I'll say about this

1595
01:32:06,439 --> 01:32:11,760
Speaker 2: question of crash and all that. Right, If if what

1596
01:32:11,800 --> 01:32:14,880
Speaker 2: you're selling is a bill of goods where there's no

1597
01:32:15,040 --> 01:32:18,639
Speaker 2: there there, then you have to worry about a crash

1598
01:32:18,640 --> 01:32:22,320
Speaker 2: because you have a crash and now it's all vapor

1599
01:32:22,320 --> 01:32:27,120
Speaker 2: where it's gone, okay, as opposed to thinking of a crash.

1600
01:32:27,560 --> 01:32:32,200
Speaker 2: Our market always has corrections, that's the nature of the markets.

1601
01:32:33,000 --> 01:32:38,439
Speaker 2: So will there be corrections, Well, almost certainly, because people

1602
01:32:38,439 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 2: are making a lot of bets on a lot of things,

1603
01:32:40,479 --> 01:32:42,880
Speaker 2: and some of those bets, if some of those bets

1604
01:32:42,920 --> 01:32:45,920
Speaker 2: didn't work out, then people are being stupid in their

1605
01:32:45,960 --> 01:32:47,400
Speaker 2: investment because you're not going to be able to get

1606
01:32:47,439 --> 01:32:50,320
Speaker 2: all your bets right right, So there are gonna be

1607
01:32:50,320 --> 01:32:53,120
Speaker 2: some bets that don't work out where it's overhyped, and

1608
01:32:53,160 --> 01:32:55,439
Speaker 2: then there're gonna be some bets that actually end up,

1609
01:32:55,600 --> 01:33:01,519
Speaker 2: you know, being you know, hugely consequential. And I always say,

1610
01:33:01,520 --> 01:33:03,880
Speaker 2: anyone that tells you that they know which bets are

1611
01:33:03,880 --> 01:33:06,720
Speaker 2: going to pay out and which ones aren't, Okay, if

1612
01:33:06,720 --> 01:33:08,519
Speaker 2: they are so good, then they should stop what they're

1613
01:33:08,520 --> 01:33:10,680
Speaker 2: doing and just invest in the market and they'll be

1614
01:33:10,720 --> 01:33:15,639
Speaker 2: a gazillionaire because I'm sorry, nobody knows exactly which ones

1615
01:33:15,680 --> 01:33:17,120
Speaker 2: are going to work and which ones aren't. It just

1616
01:33:17,160 --> 01:33:18,200
Speaker 2: everyone likes to talk.

1617
01:33:18,560 --> 01:33:22,639
Speaker 1: And what about the issue of regulation and fear with AI?

1618
01:33:22,960 --> 01:33:23,880
Speaker 1: What's your take on that?

1619
01:33:24,960 --> 01:33:29,000
Speaker 2: So let me take one part of the fear off

1620
01:33:29,080 --> 01:33:33,920
Speaker 2: the table. There are those people worried about the AI

1621
01:33:34,120 --> 01:33:38,639
Speaker 2: taking over. Okay, I don't think you have to worry

1622
01:33:38,680 --> 01:33:40,960
Speaker 2: about the AI. You have to worry about the people

1623
01:33:41,000 --> 01:33:45,920
Speaker 2: controlling the AI. That's a universal truth about new technology

1624
01:33:46,040 --> 01:33:48,920
Speaker 2: that any new technology that is powerful in what it

1625
01:33:49,000 --> 01:33:52,080
Speaker 2: can do in a positive fashion is powerful, and what

1626
01:33:52,120 --> 01:33:53,800
Speaker 2: it can do in a negative fashion. All you have

1627
01:33:53,800 --> 01:33:56,080
Speaker 2: to do is go back to gunpowder and all that.

1628
01:33:56,200 --> 01:33:58,000
Speaker 2: Lots of positive things it can do, and lots of

1629
01:33:58,000 --> 01:33:59,840
Speaker 2: negative things can do. And what you have to worry

1630
01:33:59,840 --> 01:34:03,080
Speaker 2: about as who's holding the gun right And that's a

1631
01:34:03,360 --> 01:34:05,000
Speaker 2: you know, a part of your concern or whatever the

1632
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:07,280
Speaker 2: weapon is that that came out of that. But a

1633
01:34:07,280 --> 01:34:09,000
Speaker 2: lot of that allowed us to do all sorts of

1634
01:34:09,000 --> 01:34:14,120
Speaker 2: things as well. Okay, so I don't believe this idea

1635
01:34:14,160 --> 01:34:16,760
Speaker 2: of AI taking over the world. I think that's just

1636
01:34:17,040 --> 01:34:24,560
Speaker 2: science fiction. Will negative things happen from AI? Almost certainly.

1637
01:34:26,000 --> 01:34:29,559
Speaker 2: That's the very nature of tech innovation. And in every

1638
01:34:29,600 --> 01:34:32,880
Speaker 2: tech innovation, you know, there have been bad things that

1639
01:34:32,920 --> 01:34:38,439
Speaker 2: have come from it. I do think you need to

1640
01:34:38,439 --> 01:34:41,600
Speaker 2: think about what some of those things are. My apprehension

1641
01:34:41,800 --> 01:34:48,920
Speaker 2: is figuring out an intervention that can fix a hypothetical threat.

1642
01:34:52,200 --> 01:34:55,400
Speaker 2: I will use a couple examples. Suppose back in the

1643
01:34:55,479 --> 01:34:59,200
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties someone explained to you global warming and what

1644
01:34:59,280 --> 01:35:02,919
Speaker 2: we're going to happen, and from the industrialization of the globe,

1645
01:35:03,360 --> 01:35:05,840
Speaker 2: what policies should they have put in place in the

1646
01:35:05,920 --> 01:35:08,960
Speaker 2: nineteen twenties to avoid global warming? Well, we can't even

1647
01:35:08,960 --> 01:35:11,439
Speaker 2: agree on a policy to deal with global warming today

1648
01:35:11,880 --> 01:35:14,280
Speaker 2: and we have all the science explaining it. So this

1649
01:35:14,400 --> 01:35:16,720
Speaker 2: idea in the twenties they could have figured out the

1650
01:35:16,760 --> 01:35:19,679
Speaker 2: policies to put in place to prevent global warming. Let's

1651
01:35:19,680 --> 01:35:22,639
Speaker 2: talk about social networking. Lots of great things with social networking.

1652
01:35:22,680 --> 01:35:24,960
Speaker 2: A lot of people have concerns about different things in

1653
01:35:25,040 --> 01:35:27,639
Speaker 2: terms of the division and all that. In two thousand

1654
01:35:27,640 --> 01:35:30,519
Speaker 2: and eight, could anyone have figured out interventions to prevent

1655
01:35:30,720 --> 01:35:33,599
Speaker 2: whatever you think are the negative impacts of social network

1656
01:35:33,960 --> 01:35:36,200
Speaker 2: The answer is no, nobody could have figured it out

1657
01:35:36,200 --> 01:35:38,880
Speaker 2: in two thousand and eight. And so the problem is

1658
01:35:38,920 --> 01:35:41,680
Speaker 2: the answer is and if you overconstrain it, all you're

1659
01:35:41,680 --> 01:35:44,720
Speaker 2: going to do is ensure that some other country wins

1660
01:35:44,960 --> 01:35:48,679
Speaker 2: because you can constrain it here, But that doesn't stop

1661
01:35:48,720 --> 01:35:51,519
Speaker 2: what's happening in that country or that country or that country.

1662
01:35:51,920 --> 01:35:54,800
Speaker 2: So I'm for me. I do think there needs to

1663
01:35:54,840 --> 01:35:58,240
Speaker 2: be awareness and regulation and consciousness. I think you have

1664
01:35:58,280 --> 01:36:02,799
Speaker 2: to be very careful of forecasting too far in the future. Instead,

1665
01:36:02,840 --> 01:36:05,000
Speaker 2: you have to be identifying where the issues are and

1666
01:36:05,040 --> 01:36:05,960
Speaker 2: being responsible.

1667
01:36:06,680 --> 01:36:11,680
Speaker 1: Okay, drilling down on something you just said. You essentially

1668
01:36:12,960 --> 01:36:17,519
Speaker 1: control a social network that is a virtual world. The

1669
01:36:17,560 --> 01:36:20,000
Speaker 1: internet is the best thing that ever happened to me.

1670
01:36:20,720 --> 01:36:22,720
Speaker 1: If you read the New York Times, which is the

1671
01:36:22,720 --> 01:36:27,640
Speaker 1: best we've got. They have reporters everywhere, but imperfect. You

1672
01:36:27,760 --> 01:36:31,200
Speaker 1: get a lot of self satisfied baby boomers. Put the

1673
01:36:31,360 --> 01:36:35,479
Speaker 1: phone down. I'm getting a flip phone. We have the

1674
01:36:35,560 --> 01:36:39,799
Speaker 1: Australia with the regulation where a certain age cannot be

1675
01:36:40,040 --> 01:36:43,800
Speaker 1: on the Internet now, not beyond social networks. There's been

1676
01:36:43,840 --> 01:36:48,160
Speaker 1: no study that's proven a deleterious effect. But this is

1677
01:36:48,240 --> 01:36:50,800
Speaker 1: literally your business. So what's your take?

1678
01:36:53,560 --> 01:36:59,760
Speaker 2: So lots of thoughts here. Let me talk about my

1679
01:37:00,120 --> 01:37:05,160
Speaker 2: personal belief. Okay, my personal belief. As you're growing up,

1680
01:37:09,120 --> 01:37:11,719
Speaker 2: the phone can be a challenging object when you're eleven, twelve,

1681
01:37:11,760 --> 01:37:15,639
Speaker 2: and thirteen. I avoided my kids having phones at that age. Okay,

1682
01:37:16,840 --> 01:37:20,120
Speaker 2: I picked my phone up more than I'd like. Okay,

1683
01:37:20,439 --> 01:37:23,640
Speaker 2: I'm an adult. I know that I do think there

1684
01:37:23,680 --> 01:37:26,680
Speaker 2: are a lot of challenges in high school and all that,

1685
01:37:27,120 --> 01:37:31,599
Speaker 2: and so with my kids, I wanted them to be

1686
01:37:31,640 --> 01:37:34,519
Speaker 2: doing more interacting. So like my daughter's first phone, was

1687
01:37:34,520 --> 01:37:36,920
Speaker 2: a flip phone because I felt like that was the

1688
01:37:37,000 --> 01:37:39,000
Speaker 2: right thing. And I still feel like that is the

1689
01:37:39,040 --> 01:37:41,080
Speaker 2: right thing, because I do believe a lot's happening when

1690
01:37:41,080 --> 01:37:45,360
Speaker 2: you're thirteen, fourteen, and fifteen just going to school in

1691
01:37:45,400 --> 01:37:48,479
Speaker 2: a thousand person setting. That's not the way we evolved.

1692
01:37:48,880 --> 01:37:51,639
Speaker 2: When you think of our evolution biologically, were the same

1693
01:37:51,680 --> 01:37:54,080
Speaker 2: as the people ten thousand years ago, right, In terms

1694
01:37:54,080 --> 01:37:56,880
Speaker 2: of our genetics, we're not that different. Nobody grew up

1695
01:37:56,920 --> 01:38:01,320
Speaker 2: with one thousand classmates ten thousand years ago, right. They

1696
01:38:01,439 --> 01:38:04,559
Speaker 2: use mixed age, they were right, because it's in some

1697
01:38:04,640 --> 01:38:07,559
Speaker 2: type of tribe or clothes or whatever, and you're exposed

1698
01:38:07,600 --> 01:38:09,519
Speaker 2: to all sorts of things. So I think we already

1699
01:38:09,600 --> 01:38:13,599
Speaker 2: have this artificial environment where you pack all these kids

1700
01:38:13,600 --> 01:38:16,920
Speaker 2: of the same age together because it's efficient to teach,

1701
01:38:17,479 --> 01:38:20,320
Speaker 2: and then you throw in a phone. So now there's

1702
01:38:20,360 --> 01:38:22,920
Speaker 2: this kind of thing that you're always turning to and

1703
01:38:22,960 --> 01:38:25,360
Speaker 2: always putting in your hand, and that there's all sorts

1704
01:38:25,360 --> 01:38:27,200
Speaker 2: of stuff. So this isn't just about the phone, this

1705
01:38:27,280 --> 01:38:29,800
Speaker 2: is about other things. In terms of that, I think

1706
01:38:29,840 --> 01:38:34,559
Speaker 2: it's not optimal. So personally, I am a supporter of

1707
01:38:34,800 --> 01:38:37,120
Speaker 2: having control, but I also am a big believer in

1708
01:38:37,160 --> 01:38:39,439
Speaker 2: parents having choice. You know, I'm telling you my own

1709
01:38:39,479 --> 01:38:43,120
Speaker 2: personal my own personal choice as a parent. Okay, So

1710
01:38:43,160 --> 01:38:45,880
Speaker 2: I think there are some truths in the concerns that

1711
01:38:46,240 --> 01:38:48,360
Speaker 2: people are voicing there, But as you said, I can't

1712
01:38:48,439 --> 01:38:51,120
Speaker 2: tell you emphatically. I know that for sure it's a

1713
01:38:51,120 --> 01:38:55,280
Speaker 2: difficult question, but I make that personal choice. I do

1714
01:38:55,360 --> 01:39:01,439
Speaker 2: think that sometimes part of what's happening is there is

1715
01:39:04,240 --> 01:39:10,520
Speaker 2: there is this I will call demonization of different businesses.

1716
01:39:11,120 --> 01:39:13,240
Speaker 2: Big tech is doing this, Big tech is doing this,

1717
01:39:14,240 --> 01:39:19,160
Speaker 2: and really it's a vacuum where unfortunately we haven't created

1718
01:39:19,600 --> 01:39:24,360
Speaker 2: regulations and guidelines that we think are appropriate to in

1719
01:39:24,720 --> 01:39:28,320
Speaker 2: the world that we live in. Because in general, the

1720
01:39:28,439 --> 01:39:31,640
Speaker 2: very nature of capitalism is if this party doesn't do it,

1721
01:39:31,680 --> 01:39:33,880
Speaker 2: then this party will do it, right, That is the nature.

1722
01:39:33,960 --> 01:39:38,160
Speaker 2: So suppose, you know, Facebook decided Instagram wasn't a good

1723
01:39:38,200 --> 01:39:42,120
Speaker 2: thing for the world for whatever reason, Well, then someone

1724
01:39:42,160 --> 01:39:43,839
Speaker 2: would have invented TikTok even sooner.

1725
01:39:44,360 --> 01:39:44,479
Speaker 1: Right.

1726
01:39:44,520 --> 01:39:46,800
Speaker 2: And then suppose TikTok decided it was, well, someone else

1727
01:39:46,800 --> 01:39:50,759
Speaker 2: would invent something right that would take its place. Okay,

1728
01:39:51,000 --> 01:39:53,320
Speaker 2: So whatever the challenges are, of which I think there

1729
01:39:53,320 --> 01:39:56,599
Speaker 2: are challenges, I think there's lots of challenges in how

1730
01:39:56,680 --> 01:39:58,719
Speaker 2: social media. You know, how we talked about the system

1731
01:39:58,760 --> 01:40:00,960
Speaker 2: one and system two brain. Okay, I think there are

1732
01:40:00,960 --> 01:40:04,240
Speaker 2: lots of challenges where it creates these micro thought groups

1733
01:40:04,640 --> 01:40:07,960
Speaker 2: where in general this one part I didn't say one

1734
01:40:07,960 --> 01:40:10,880
Speaker 2: with the system one is system to brain. How does

1735
01:40:10,920 --> 01:40:13,040
Speaker 2: your system one brain come up with the answer it

1736
01:40:13,080 --> 01:40:19,960
Speaker 2: gives you. Usually it's what other people they know and

1737
01:40:20,080 --> 01:40:24,439
Speaker 2: trust believe. That's how the system one brain comes up

1738
01:40:24,479 --> 01:40:26,719
Speaker 2: with the answer. So if you go back in time,

1739
01:40:27,479 --> 01:40:29,559
Speaker 2: if you hear a rustling in the in the in

1740
01:40:29,600 --> 01:40:34,439
Speaker 2: the in the bushes, and your brain says, you know, run,

1741
01:40:34,479 --> 01:40:39,280
Speaker 2: that could be a tiger. Okay, it's a it's a reaction, right,

1742
01:40:39,320 --> 01:40:41,280
Speaker 2: And why do you believe that? That's because the people

1743
01:40:41,320 --> 01:40:43,519
Speaker 2: that you live with says, oh, there's a rustling, move

1744
01:40:43,560 --> 01:40:45,920
Speaker 2: there's a tiger. You believe it because the people you

1745
01:40:45,960 --> 01:40:49,320
Speaker 2: spend time with believe it. And that's how we're evolved

1746
01:40:49,320 --> 01:40:51,800
Speaker 2: as social animals is we believe things because the people

1747
01:40:51,840 --> 01:40:53,759
Speaker 2: we spend time believe things, and that's how we program

1748
01:40:53,800 --> 01:40:56,240
Speaker 2: our system one brain. Well, of course, if all you're

1749
01:40:56,280 --> 01:40:58,280
Speaker 2: talking to are people with the same views, then it

1750
01:40:58,360 --> 01:41:02,920
Speaker 2: programs are system one to think homogeneously about it. Okay,

1751
01:41:03,080 --> 01:41:05,040
Speaker 2: So I think there are all these challenges that we have,

1752
01:41:06,720 --> 01:41:10,240
Speaker 2: but that doesn't mean the tech companies are to blame

1753
01:41:10,280 --> 01:41:13,200
Speaker 2: for it, algorithms to blame for it. All. An algorithm

1754
01:41:13,240 --> 01:41:15,320
Speaker 2: is trying to find you something that doesn't bore you

1755
01:41:16,439 --> 01:41:18,080
Speaker 2: to They send we have problems. We have to deal

1756
01:41:18,120 --> 01:41:20,360
Speaker 2: with those problems and figure out how to handle those problems,

1757
01:41:20,439 --> 01:41:22,800
Speaker 2: not blame it on the tech companies.

1758
01:41:23,880 --> 01:41:27,439
Speaker 1: Just because you went there twice. Now we live in

1759
01:41:27,479 --> 01:41:32,360
Speaker 1: a divided country. Everyone gets news from their own source.

1760
01:41:34,439 --> 01:41:37,880
Speaker 1: Is there any hope? And the hope would come in

1761
01:41:37,920 --> 01:41:40,360
Speaker 1: a number of levels that we could agree on certain

1762
01:41:40,520 --> 01:41:43,519
Speaker 1: facts that we can move forward or is it just

1763
01:41:43,640 --> 01:41:46,200
Speaker 1: going to become a tower of Babel society.

1764
01:41:46,840 --> 01:41:49,559
Speaker 2: I can't tell you what the answer is, but I'm

1765
01:41:49,640 --> 01:41:58,960
Speaker 2: actually a deep believer in the unending path towards greater

1766
01:41:59,040 --> 01:42:04,920
Speaker 2: compassion and you know, awareness and enlightenment, and so do

1767
01:42:05,040 --> 01:42:08,559
Speaker 2: I have hope. There's a great song. Don't are you

1768
01:42:08,560 --> 01:42:12,760
Speaker 2: familiar with Emily Scott Robinson? Okay, you she check her out.

1769
01:42:12,800 --> 01:42:17,800
Speaker 2: She's on Oh Boy Records. But but she has a song,

1770
01:42:18,400 --> 01:42:20,920
Speaker 2: a Time of Flowers, and she just came out of

1771
01:42:20,920 --> 01:42:24,879
Speaker 2: a new album that she just recorded, and she actually

1772
01:42:24,920 --> 01:42:30,919
Speaker 2: wrote it during COVID, But it's particularly appropriate now because

1773
01:42:31,600 --> 01:42:34,439
Speaker 2: it talks about, you know, even in hard times, there

1774
01:42:34,479 --> 01:42:38,080
Speaker 2: comes a time for flowers, okay, and that the flowers

1775
01:42:38,080 --> 01:42:41,800
Speaker 2: will bloom. And so I guess I am at my

1776
01:42:42,000 --> 01:42:46,320
Speaker 2: very base even as people always like to disparage about

1777
01:42:46,320 --> 01:42:49,240
Speaker 2: where the world is and say it's hopeless, And as

1778
01:42:49,240 --> 01:42:52,560
Speaker 2: you go back in time, I'm sure people were disparaged

1779
01:42:52,600 --> 01:42:54,479
Speaker 2: about the world and the way it was during World

1780
01:42:54,520 --> 01:42:57,480
Speaker 2: War Two and during all sorts of during the Great Depression,

1781
01:42:57,640 --> 01:43:01,559
Speaker 2: during all sorts of things, right, And so I'm a

1782
01:43:01,600 --> 01:43:06,200
Speaker 2: big believer that, yeah, we'll work through it.

1783
01:43:14,320 --> 01:43:17,519
Speaker 1: What did we do? Politics have a presence on Twitch.

1784
01:43:20,680 --> 01:43:25,280
Speaker 2: Uh, So it is. It is part of Twitch, Okay,

1785
01:43:26,080 --> 01:43:29,200
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it is. And there are a number

1786
01:43:29,240 --> 01:43:32,840
Speaker 2: of creators that are you know, noteworthy in terms of

1787
01:43:32,840 --> 01:43:37,160
Speaker 2: politics and talking about it. It's not you know, a

1788
01:43:37,240 --> 01:43:39,799
Speaker 2: huge percentage of Twitch. I do think it'll be interesting

1789
01:43:39,880 --> 01:43:44,040
Speaker 2: as the elections come up about when more politicians are

1790
01:43:44,080 --> 01:43:46,880
Speaker 2: gonna be leaning into using Twitch to sort of get

1791
01:43:46,920 --> 01:43:50,360
Speaker 2: their message out and engage. So it's a part, but

1792
01:43:50,400 --> 01:43:55,200
Speaker 2: I wouldn't say it's you know, a dominant portion of twitch.

1793
01:43:55,600 --> 01:43:59,320
Speaker 1: Okay, let's talk about this career. You went to work

1794
01:43:59,360 --> 01:44:02,840
Speaker 1: for NASA. Why nasaid? How was that experience?

1795
01:44:04,520 --> 01:44:07,040
Speaker 2: The way I describe it is, I've been one of

1796
01:44:07,040 --> 01:44:09,000
Speaker 2: the I'm a big believer that so many people and

1797
01:44:09,040 --> 01:44:11,360
Speaker 2: I'm one of them they just we stare at our

1798
01:44:11,400 --> 01:44:13,880
Speaker 2: feet and take two steps forward with no idea where

1799
01:44:13,880 --> 01:44:16,760
Speaker 2: we're going. Okay, And I very much have lived my

1800
01:44:16,840 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 2: life making choices about things I want to do. So

1801
01:44:19,920 --> 01:44:21,680
Speaker 2: I got out of getting my PhD. And when I

1802
01:44:21,680 --> 01:44:27,040
Speaker 2: was getting my PhD, everyone told me, oh, you should

1803
01:44:27,040 --> 01:44:29,880
Speaker 2: be a researcher, because of course all my professors were researchers.

1804
01:44:30,040 --> 01:44:31,800
Speaker 2: And I knew I didn't want to go to academia.

1805
01:44:31,840 --> 01:44:33,439
Speaker 2: So I said, oh, but I want to be a researcher.

1806
01:44:33,520 --> 01:44:38,400
Speaker 2: So I looked at going to Microsoft, NASA, ISI, SRI

1807
01:44:38,960 --> 01:44:42,880
Speaker 2: Bell Labs. Those were the you know, research things at

1808
01:44:42,880 --> 01:44:45,280
Speaker 2: that time. I ended up choosing NASA. At the time,

1809
01:44:45,320 --> 01:44:47,639
Speaker 2: it was one of the better places to go for AI.

1810
01:44:48,920 --> 01:44:50,519
Speaker 2: When I got there and I was thinking, oh, I

1811
01:44:50,560 --> 01:44:53,800
Speaker 2: want to be a researcher. Within about four months I

1812
01:44:53,840 --> 01:44:56,280
Speaker 2: realized a big part of being a researcher is publishing

1813
01:44:56,320 --> 01:44:59,280
Speaker 2: papers and I realized I don't care about publishing papers.

1814
01:44:59,320 --> 01:45:02,519
Speaker 2: I liked SA problems. So I had to unlearn all

1815
01:45:02,520 --> 01:45:04,800
Speaker 2: this stuff that I learned in school and realized, no,

1816
01:45:04,880 --> 01:45:07,320
Speaker 2: I'm really a problem solved. And then I started managing.

1817
01:45:07,360 --> 01:45:10,559
Speaker 2: Within literally six months of getting to NASA. I went

1818
01:45:10,600 --> 01:45:13,639
Speaker 2: from kind of being an IC and I was leading

1819
01:45:13,640 --> 01:45:16,719
Speaker 2: a group of like two hundred and seventy people within

1820
01:45:16,800 --> 01:45:18,800
Speaker 2: three years of having shown up at the door at

1821
01:45:18,880 --> 01:45:22,439
Speaker 2: NASA after my PhD. And so it's a great time

1822
01:45:22,439 --> 01:45:25,720
Speaker 2: for me. I loved working at NASA. Really, what it

1823
01:45:25,800 --> 01:45:27,600
Speaker 2: was is I found out more about who I was

1824
01:45:27,640 --> 01:45:30,639
Speaker 2: and how much I liked to solve problems, more so

1825
01:45:30,760 --> 01:45:33,040
Speaker 2: than just getting rooted in the technology.

1826
01:45:33,200 --> 01:45:35,000
Speaker 1: So how get up switching to Google?

1827
01:45:36,920 --> 01:45:41,839
Speaker 2: So NASA AMES is in a Silicon valley. It's actually

1828
01:45:42,040 --> 01:45:46,200
Speaker 2: just across a canal from Google, and it was at

1829
01:45:46,240 --> 01:45:48,880
Speaker 2: a time when Google was growing. The guy who's one

1830
01:45:48,920 --> 01:45:51,559
Speaker 2: of the positions I took two ago, I got that

1831
01:45:51,600 --> 01:45:53,639
Speaker 2: one position, I went up another level. He had gone

1832
01:45:53,640 --> 01:45:56,760
Speaker 2: over to Google. And so like three years before I left,

1833
01:45:56,800 --> 01:45:58,960
Speaker 2: I thought about going to Google, and I knew I

1834
01:45:59,000 --> 01:46:01,360
Speaker 2: wanted to move on from now. I loved NASA, but

1835
01:46:01,760 --> 01:46:04,720
Speaker 2: I didn't grow up a space, you know, like a

1836
01:46:04,800 --> 01:46:06,840
Speaker 2: guy dream about space. As a computer science I was

1837
01:46:06,880 --> 01:46:09,960
Speaker 2: in Silicon Valley, so I was like, Okay, I've done

1838
01:46:10,000 --> 01:46:12,400
Speaker 2: a lot at NASA. I want to go into Silicon Valley.

1839
01:46:12,439 --> 01:46:16,840
Speaker 2: And Google was sort of a very natural choice. It

1840
01:46:16,880 --> 01:46:19,160
Speaker 2: took a while to make sure I got the position

1841
01:46:19,280 --> 01:46:23,280
Speaker 2: and all that, but then it was great going over

1842
01:46:23,280 --> 01:46:23,719
Speaker 2: to Google.

1843
01:46:24,040 --> 01:46:25,479
Speaker 1: And so why'd you leave Google?

1844
01:46:27,400 --> 01:46:30,080
Speaker 2: After I've been there about nine years? A lot of

1845
01:46:30,080 --> 01:46:32,240
Speaker 2: people stay at Google and they just stay there forever.

1846
01:46:32,880 --> 01:46:36,800
Speaker 2: And Google's very generous and how they compensate you and

1847
01:46:36,840 --> 01:46:39,880
Speaker 2: all that, and I reflected, and part of it is

1848
01:46:39,920 --> 01:46:44,120
Speaker 2: the way I've described it was, I have I've got

1849
01:46:44,160 --> 01:46:46,400
Speaker 2: to live in Rome during the Renaissance when you think

1850
01:46:46,439 --> 01:46:49,880
Speaker 2: of Silicon Valley in this time period. But there was

1851
01:46:49,920 --> 01:46:53,920
Speaker 2: a lot besides the Sistine Chapel during the Renaissance, and

1852
01:46:54,080 --> 01:46:56,040
Speaker 2: I see all this going on, and I felt like,

1853
01:46:56,120 --> 01:46:58,639
Speaker 2: if I ended my career having spent my whole career

1854
01:46:58,680 --> 01:47:01,640
Speaker 2: at Google, how would I feel about it? And I

1855
01:47:01,640 --> 01:47:03,519
Speaker 2: do think a lot of people get comfortable at Google.

1856
01:47:04,320 --> 01:47:08,160
Speaker 2: And I felt like and I was compensated well, and

1857
01:47:08,200 --> 01:47:11,519
Speaker 2: I felt like, no, but I can do other things.

1858
01:47:11,560 --> 01:47:13,800
Speaker 2: I don't need to stay at Google, and so I

1859
01:47:14,040 --> 01:47:15,760
Speaker 2: just felt that, but a lot of people don't make

1860
01:47:15,800 --> 01:47:17,920
Speaker 2: that choice, and I was like, I just don't want

1861
01:47:17,960 --> 01:47:19,479
Speaker 2: to spend my whole career at Google. So I went

1862
01:47:19,479 --> 01:47:23,360
Speaker 2: to a startup. The startup, next Door, ended up doing okay,

1863
01:47:23,520 --> 01:47:25,800
Speaker 2: but not like great. A lot of some people know it,

1864
01:47:27,000 --> 01:47:29,879
Speaker 2: and then I'll jump Interestingly, when I came to Twitch,

1865
01:47:30,320 --> 01:47:33,200
Speaker 2: I had left next Doors taking some time off. They

1866
01:47:33,240 --> 01:47:36,280
Speaker 2: interviewed me and they offered me the job, and I

1867
01:47:36,320 --> 01:47:40,599
Speaker 2: turned it down because I said, oh Twitch. I hadn't

1868
01:47:40,640 --> 01:47:42,559
Speaker 2: used Twitch a lot. I said, oh, Twitch is a

1869
01:47:42,560 --> 01:47:45,400
Speaker 2: gaming platform. I'm not a gamer. I don't think that's

1870
01:47:45,439 --> 01:47:48,240
Speaker 2: right for me. And then they came back four months

1871
01:47:48,320 --> 01:47:50,000
Speaker 2: later and said, no, Dan, we really think you're the

1872
01:47:50,080 --> 01:47:53,559
Speaker 2: right person for the job. And so I thought about

1873
01:47:53,600 --> 01:47:55,840
Speaker 2: it and I realized where I've been happiest in life

1874
01:47:56,600 --> 01:48:01,040
Speaker 2: is when I work with people I like, and I

1875
01:48:01,160 --> 01:48:02,560
Speaker 2: liked the people I was going to work with, so

1876
01:48:02,600 --> 01:48:05,479
Speaker 2: I said yes. And then it's only afterwards that I

1877
01:48:05,560 --> 01:48:07,880
Speaker 2: really realized that Twitch was a perfect fit. It was

1878
01:48:08,000 --> 01:48:11,320
Speaker 2: just happenstance that even though I wasn't a gamer, I

1879
01:48:11,360 --> 01:48:14,000
Speaker 2: only after being there realized, oh, Twitch is really about

1880
01:48:14,000 --> 01:48:17,960
Speaker 2: community and about creatives, and I was a creative and

1881
01:48:18,000 --> 01:48:19,840
Speaker 2: I'd done a lot in community, so it ended up

1882
01:48:19,880 --> 01:48:21,800
Speaker 2: being this sort of match made in heaven.

1883
01:48:22,280 --> 01:48:28,000
Speaker 1: Okay. Silicon Valley is the story of founders. There were

1884
01:48:28,280 --> 01:48:35,440
Speaker 1: you know, dropouts like Bill Gates. There are people completely uneducated,

1885
01:48:35,520 --> 01:48:38,880
Speaker 1: really liked Steve jobs. But they're all these and then

1886
01:48:38,920 --> 01:48:43,679
Speaker 1: you have the Google twins at Stanford, you were working

1887
01:48:43,800 --> 01:48:48,200
Speaker 1: for people. Did you ever say, wait a second, all

1888
01:48:48,240 --> 01:48:50,479
Speaker 1: these other people starting companies, I want to start a

1889
01:48:50,520 --> 01:48:51,160
Speaker 1: company too.

1890
01:48:52,280 --> 01:48:56,160
Speaker 2: Yeah, at times I'd have that thought, right, And then

1891
01:48:57,240 --> 01:49:02,439
Speaker 2: what I realized is so some of those people have

1892
01:49:02,560 --> 01:49:06,640
Speaker 2: demonstrated an ability to do it multiple times. Not many,

1893
01:49:06,800 --> 01:49:11,080
Speaker 2: not many, even the good ones. A huge part is

1894
01:49:11,120 --> 01:49:13,960
Speaker 2: being in the right place at the right time. Okay,

1895
01:49:15,720 --> 01:49:20,400
Speaker 2: And I think I realized, well, I love the idea

1896
01:49:20,439 --> 01:49:22,200
Speaker 2: of starting something, and maybe I will be in the

1897
01:49:22,240 --> 01:49:25,760
Speaker 2: right place at the right time. I also was really good.

1898
01:49:25,800 --> 01:49:29,040
Speaker 2: It's taking something that already had some scale and coming

1899
01:49:29,080 --> 01:49:32,080
Speaker 2: in and approaching it with the same zeal and passion

1900
01:49:32,080 --> 01:49:34,400
Speaker 2: that a founder has. And to be honest, some of

1901
01:49:34,400 --> 01:49:36,360
Speaker 2: those people I don't think would have been good at it.

1902
01:49:37,560 --> 01:49:39,519
Speaker 2: In other words, they many of the people you talked

1903
01:49:39,560 --> 01:49:42,240
Speaker 2: about you couldn't have brought into Twitch when I was

1904
01:49:42,240 --> 01:49:45,839
Speaker 2: brought into Twitch, where they could have had the impact

1905
01:49:45,840 --> 01:49:48,000
Speaker 2: that I had at that point of Twitch, like either

1906
01:49:48,040 --> 01:49:50,600
Speaker 2: they had to found something or they weren't going to

1907
01:49:50,640 --> 01:49:53,160
Speaker 2: be able to do it. I realized that, Look, no,

1908
01:49:53,320 --> 01:49:56,200
Speaker 2: I was really good at kind of taking something that

1909
01:49:56,280 --> 01:49:59,560
Speaker 2: already had some traction and working to scale it and

1910
01:49:59,600 --> 01:50:01,800
Speaker 2: make it better. So I certainly reflected on it. But

1911
01:50:01,840 --> 01:50:04,840
Speaker 2: whenever I was faced with that decision, I always kind

1912
01:50:04,840 --> 01:50:06,519
Speaker 2: of said, where can I have the biggest impact That

1913
01:50:06,640 --> 01:50:08,840
Speaker 2: I often went to something that already had some traction.

1914
01:50:09,520 --> 01:50:13,200
Speaker 1: Okay, you're working for NASA, you're working for the Space program.

1915
01:50:13,200 --> 01:50:16,759
Speaker 1: You can only make so much money. The people at Google,

1916
01:50:16,960 --> 01:50:19,240
Speaker 1: depending on when they got in, whether that job they

1917
01:50:19,280 --> 01:50:23,479
Speaker 1: made a shit ton of money. Whatever's going on at Twitch.

1918
01:50:23,520 --> 01:50:26,880
Speaker 1: It's owned by Amazon, the upside is only so high.

1919
01:50:27,320 --> 01:50:29,839
Speaker 1: How have you done financially over your career?

1920
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:33,479
Speaker 2: Yeah? The way it's funny, a lot of people they say, oh,

1921
01:50:33,520 --> 01:50:35,560
Speaker 2: he's the owner of Twitch. Like I go around and

1922
01:50:35,600 --> 01:50:38,080
Speaker 2: people recognize me and they're oh, he's the owner of Twitch,

1923
01:50:38,520 --> 01:50:41,120
Speaker 2: and so they think I'm a gazillionaire now I'm doing fine.

1924
01:50:41,160 --> 01:50:44,679
Speaker 2: I'm quite comfortable, Okay, But I'm not the owner of Twitch.

1925
01:50:44,720 --> 01:50:48,120
Speaker 2: I didn't found Twitch. I wasn't at Google, you know,

1926
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:52,040
Speaker 2: pre IPI. Okay. But the way I describe it is,

1927
01:50:52,080 --> 01:50:57,320
Speaker 2: I think the tech industry people, we all, well all

1928
01:50:57,360 --> 01:51:00,200
Speaker 2: of us in the tech industry, get paid more than

1929
01:51:00,280 --> 01:51:03,080
Speaker 2: we deserve. We think we deserve so much more because

1930
01:51:03,080 --> 01:51:05,120
Speaker 2: we see somebody who is in the right place at

1931
01:51:05,120 --> 01:51:08,760
Speaker 2: the right time. And what I often say is this

1932
01:51:08,800 --> 01:51:10,519
Speaker 2: is a challenge. When you live in the area like

1933
01:51:10,560 --> 01:51:13,559
Speaker 2: the Bay Area, you think of your intellect and ability,

1934
01:51:13,800 --> 01:51:16,439
Speaker 2: and then you see other people there and you see

1935
01:51:16,439 --> 01:51:18,080
Speaker 2: ones that you look at and you say, well, wait,

1936
01:51:18,160 --> 01:51:21,120
Speaker 2: I'm better than them, and they happen to be somewhere,

1937
01:51:21,160 --> 01:51:24,120
Speaker 2: and so they're a gazillionaire, right, and so you feel

1938
01:51:24,120 --> 01:51:26,960
Speaker 2: like I deserve more. And so for the way I

1939
01:51:27,000 --> 01:51:29,360
Speaker 2: say it is for everyone that you see above you

1940
01:51:29,479 --> 01:51:32,320
Speaker 2: in terms of how much they've benefited, that you think

1941
01:51:32,360 --> 01:51:34,840
Speaker 2: you're just as good as there are probably ten people

1942
01:51:34,840 --> 01:51:37,320
Speaker 2: below you that are every bit as good as you,

1943
01:51:37,439 --> 01:51:39,599
Speaker 2: that did not benefit as much as you did. You

1944
01:51:39,680 --> 01:51:42,879
Speaker 2: just don't see those ten people and how good they are. Okay,

1945
01:51:43,439 --> 01:51:47,880
Speaker 2: So I've been incredibly blessed, right, And I am you know,

1946
01:51:47,960 --> 01:51:51,960
Speaker 2: I'm comfortable, my kids, you know, benefited, you know in

1947
01:51:52,000 --> 01:51:55,000
Speaker 2: terms of college and all that. I'm not a gazillionaire,

1948
01:51:55,000 --> 01:51:57,839
Speaker 2: but I don't care about being a gazillionaire. I'm still

1949
01:51:58,000 --> 01:52:01,439
Speaker 2: doing quite well and I have more than what I

1950
01:52:01,560 --> 01:52:04,559
Speaker 2: deserve in this world, as I think most folks that

1951
01:52:04,680 --> 01:52:07,320
Speaker 2: have realized some success in the tech industry end up having.

1952
01:52:07,760 --> 01:52:15,600
Speaker 1: Okay, Twitch is owned by Amazon. Amazon's culture historically is

1953
01:52:16,080 --> 01:52:20,840
Speaker 1: very lean financially. The layoffs you had to lay off

1954
01:52:20,880 --> 01:52:25,200
Speaker 1: some people. That does happen at big corporations. What are

1955
01:52:25,200 --> 01:52:28,240
Speaker 1: the advantages and disadvantages being owned by Amazon?

1956
01:52:30,640 --> 01:52:37,120
Speaker 2: So I think Amazon has been great for ensuring Twitch

1957
01:52:37,200 --> 01:52:40,080
Speaker 2: got to where we are. It took a fair amount

1958
01:52:40,080 --> 01:52:43,000
Speaker 2: of investment, not just from once they bought us, but

1959
01:52:43,080 --> 01:52:46,519
Speaker 2: to help Twitch grow Okay, and Amazon has been an

1960
01:52:46,600 --> 01:52:52,719
Speaker 2: extremely patient and supportive owner that allowed us to continue

1961
01:52:52,720 --> 01:52:56,200
Speaker 2: to invest and keep growing. Okay. So I don't know

1962
01:52:57,560 --> 01:53:02,040
Speaker 2: if Twitch could have gotten to where we are without

1963
01:53:02,200 --> 01:53:07,840
Speaker 2: someone like Amazon having been there. Okay. It is the fact.

1964
01:53:07,960 --> 01:53:15,559
Speaker 2: My view is so far in terms of Amazon pushing

1965
01:53:15,680 --> 01:53:18,160
Speaker 2: us in terms of how we run the business. I'm

1966
01:53:18,160 --> 01:53:20,200
Speaker 2: supportive of it because the way I describe it is

1967
01:53:20,880 --> 01:53:23,240
Speaker 2: I have a responsibility to make sure Twitch is here

1968
01:53:23,280 --> 01:53:25,360
Speaker 2: twenty years from now, thirty years from now, forty years

1969
01:53:25,400 --> 01:53:29,200
Speaker 2: from now, when somebody makes streaming their life. Twitch is

1970
01:53:29,240 --> 01:53:31,320
Speaker 2: different than all the other platforms. If we went away,

1971
01:53:31,760 --> 01:53:34,160
Speaker 2: these folks wouldn't necessarily just go to the other platforms

1972
01:53:34,200 --> 01:53:36,120
Speaker 2: and have the same life they lived lead today. It's

1973
01:53:36,200 --> 01:53:40,439
Speaker 2: very unique. And you know, they've been streaming now for

1974
01:53:40,479 --> 01:53:43,240
Speaker 2: five ten years, they have two kids. If they had

1975
01:53:43,240 --> 01:53:45,320
Speaker 2: to go get another job, the resume is like, what

1976
01:53:45,360 --> 01:53:47,240
Speaker 2: do you mean you've been streaming for seven years? Why

1977
01:53:47,280 --> 01:53:50,120
Speaker 2: would I hire you? Okay, So I have an obligation

1978
01:53:50,280 --> 01:53:53,360
Speaker 2: to make sure they like we're still here twenty thirty,

1979
01:53:53,360 --> 01:53:55,559
Speaker 2: forty years from now, which means I need to run

1980
01:53:55,600 --> 01:54:00,760
Speaker 2: this business so that it's sustainable. And Amazon's been very supportive,

1981
01:54:01,160 --> 01:54:03,479
Speaker 2: and so sometimes you have to make tough decisions. You know,

1982
01:54:03,479 --> 01:54:06,880
Speaker 2: when we had to make layoffs, we'd gotten bigger than

1983
01:54:06,920 --> 01:54:09,639
Speaker 2: we needed to be, And I do think that's happened

1984
01:54:09,640 --> 01:54:11,920
Speaker 2: in a lot of tech industry where people just think,

1985
01:54:12,760 --> 01:54:15,600
Speaker 2: you know, get bigger, get bigger, get bigger, and you

1986
01:54:15,640 --> 01:54:17,920
Speaker 2: don't need to be bigger. So I feel really good

1987
01:54:17,960 --> 01:54:20,599
Speaker 2: about where we are today. I feel we've shown that

1988
01:54:20,680 --> 01:54:24,000
Speaker 2: it's a sustainable business if you will, that our business works,

1989
01:54:24,640 --> 01:54:27,120
Speaker 2: and so I feel very good about, you know, the

1990
01:54:27,160 --> 01:54:30,320
Speaker 2: support we've had from Amazon, and I don't think there

1991
01:54:30,360 --> 01:54:33,600
Speaker 2: are a lot of you know, these downsides that we've had.

1992
01:54:34,120 --> 01:54:36,400
Speaker 1: Are you still married to the mother of your children?

1993
01:54:37,160 --> 01:54:39,959
Speaker 2: I am. I am still with her and everything.

1994
01:54:40,120 --> 01:54:43,160
Speaker 1: This is a business that usually requires very long hours.

1995
01:54:43,200 --> 01:54:44,800
Speaker 1: How do you sustain a marriage.

1996
01:54:46,440 --> 01:54:51,840
Speaker 2: Well, Luckily, I'm someone who aside from my and it's

1997
01:54:51,880 --> 01:54:53,160
Speaker 2: not just the marriage kids. So I have a kid

1998
01:54:53,200 --> 01:54:55,840
Speaker 2: who's twenty seven and one who's twenty four. My twenty

1999
01:54:55,840 --> 01:54:59,640
Speaker 2: seven year old has a has a daughter. So I'm

2000
01:54:59,640 --> 01:55:02,600
Speaker 2: a grandm father. I just spent the weekend. I took

2001
01:55:02,640 --> 01:55:05,920
Speaker 2: care of my grand daughter from ten to five on Saturday,

2002
01:55:05,960 --> 01:55:09,280
Speaker 2: and then from you know, nine to twelve. So I'm

2003
01:55:09,320 --> 01:55:11,160
Speaker 2: someone who spent a lot of time with my kids.

2004
01:55:11,200 --> 01:55:16,360
Speaker 2: They both live near me now, and so I'd say

2005
01:55:16,360 --> 01:55:19,720
Speaker 2: the biggest thing is I don't push to create all

2006
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:22,560
Speaker 2: this time that's just for me. I don't have like

2007
01:55:22,920 --> 01:55:26,560
Speaker 2: boys weekends. I don't go off golfing all day Saturday

2008
01:55:26,600 --> 01:55:29,880
Speaker 2: and Sunday or something like that. You know when in

2009
01:55:30,000 --> 01:55:33,200
Speaker 2: terms of I work hard, I exercise, and I spend

2010
01:55:33,240 --> 01:55:36,040
Speaker 2: time with my family. Those are basically the three things

2011
01:55:36,040 --> 01:55:38,160
Speaker 2: that I do, and there's enough time in the day

2012
01:55:38,160 --> 01:55:41,400
Speaker 2: for all three. There's probably enough, not enough time in

2013
01:55:41,440 --> 01:55:43,560
Speaker 2: the day if I wanted to do all these other things,

2014
01:55:43,960 --> 01:55:45,040
Speaker 2: you know, just for myself.

2015
01:55:45,360 --> 01:55:50,800
Speaker 1: Okay, when you're in the tech bubble and you're talking

2016
01:55:50,880 --> 01:55:55,720
Speaker 1: about things, people will be able to understand what you say, cogitate,

2017
01:55:55,800 --> 01:56:00,200
Speaker 1: agree or disagree. But if you're at a pt A

2018
01:56:00,440 --> 01:56:06,880
Speaker 1: meeting or something, do you feel you're obviously intelligent, educated

2019
01:56:07,880 --> 01:56:10,440
Speaker 1: and aware of what's going on? I mean, do you

2020
01:56:10,600 --> 01:56:15,280
Speaker 1: find that it's hard to have satisfying conversations?

2021
01:56:15,320 --> 01:56:22,560
Speaker 2: Not at all, like literally not at all interesting. I

2022
01:56:22,640 --> 01:56:28,440
Speaker 2: think it comes to this issue of empathy. I was

2023
01:56:28,480 --> 01:56:32,160
Speaker 2: actually at a dinner last night with the friend of

2024
01:56:32,240 --> 01:56:36,080
Speaker 2: my daughters who had a reveal. And I live in

2025
01:56:36,120 --> 01:56:38,600
Speaker 2: White Salmon, Washington, which is a small town. It's an

2026
01:56:38,600 --> 01:56:42,240
Speaker 2: hour east of Portland. You know, the way I describe

2027
01:56:42,280 --> 01:56:47,000
Speaker 2: White Salmon as both talking about the population. It's a

2028
01:56:47,120 --> 01:56:52,000
Speaker 2: no safe way, no Starbucks, no McDonald's town. Okay, but

2029
01:56:52,320 --> 01:56:55,880
Speaker 2: one grocery store town in you know, seven restaurants Okay.

2030
01:56:55,920 --> 01:56:58,320
Speaker 2: So like when I describe it that way, you get

2031
01:56:58,320 --> 01:57:00,480
Speaker 2: a sense of or across the river from Hoodry, which

2032
01:57:00,520 --> 01:57:04,280
Speaker 2: is a to McDonald's town and a one Safeway town.

2033
01:57:04,320 --> 01:57:06,240
Speaker 2: And I use that because I think when now and

2034
01:57:06,320 --> 01:57:08,240
Speaker 2: one Walmart town, where I describe it like that, you

2035
01:57:08,320 --> 01:57:09,960
Speaker 2: kind of get a sense for the size of the town.

2036
01:57:10,320 --> 01:57:12,280
Speaker 2: And so these are folks doing all sorts of things

2037
01:57:12,280 --> 01:57:16,240
Speaker 2: in this region, right, and I like great conversations. Some

2038
01:57:16,280 --> 01:57:18,560
Speaker 2: of them are musicians. Interestingly, a number of one of

2039
01:57:18,600 --> 01:57:20,160
Speaker 2: them is someone who tried to be a musician for

2040
01:57:20,160 --> 01:57:24,200
Speaker 2: a while still writes music and records. My daughter's a

2041
01:57:24,240 --> 01:57:29,840
Speaker 2: singer songwriter. And so I just think that the reason

2042
01:57:29,880 --> 01:57:32,640
Speaker 2: people get stuck in that is because they're not very

2043
01:57:32,640 --> 01:57:35,760
Speaker 2: empathetic of different ways of living their life, and they

2044
01:57:35,800 --> 01:57:40,000
Speaker 2: think everything is living in this tech bubble, which is

2045
01:57:40,000 --> 01:57:40,920
Speaker 2: not what life's about.

2046
01:57:42,000 --> 01:57:44,520
Speaker 1: You mentioned Hood River. Are you a windsurfer?

2047
01:57:45,880 --> 01:57:48,560
Speaker 2: I'm a kayaker, Okay, So for those for your listeners

2048
01:57:48,600 --> 01:57:51,840
Speaker 2: that don't know, the beauty of this area is Hood

2049
01:57:51,920 --> 01:57:54,200
Speaker 2: River and the Columbia River which is between Hood River

2050
01:57:54,240 --> 01:57:58,120
Speaker 2: and White Salmon. In the nineties, all the windsurfers and

2051
01:57:58,240 --> 01:58:01,480
Speaker 2: kite borders came in the two thousand, all the kayakers

2052
01:58:01,480 --> 01:58:05,839
Speaker 2: came Okay, and I came here because I enjoyed whitewater kayaking.

2053
01:58:05,880 --> 01:58:09,080
Speaker 2: My son's are really good white water kayaking. And I

2054
01:58:09,120 --> 01:58:12,800
Speaker 2: love the area because it has both, like the all

2055
01:58:12,840 --> 01:58:16,440
Speaker 2: these kind of athletic folks came through, but it also

2056
01:58:16,720 --> 01:58:19,320
Speaker 2: there's a town close to Trout Lake where the hippies

2057
01:58:19,360 --> 01:58:22,280
Speaker 2: came in the sixties, and then you have the logging,

2058
01:58:22,360 --> 01:58:25,240
Speaker 2: and so it's really this blend. It's reasonably progressive, but

2059
01:58:25,320 --> 01:58:29,879
Speaker 2: not overly progressive. So I kind of like the blend.

2060
01:58:30,880 --> 01:58:33,160
Speaker 1: And why do you live there? And how long have

2061
01:58:33,240 --> 01:58:33,880
Speaker 1: you lived there?

2062
01:58:35,160 --> 01:58:38,280
Speaker 2: I lived there about three years. And the story is

2063
01:58:39,360 --> 01:58:41,720
Speaker 2: raised the kids in the Bay Area lived in Los Altos.

2064
01:58:42,960 --> 01:58:44,600
Speaker 2: That's where I was, That's where I first started working.

2065
01:58:44,960 --> 01:58:48,240
Speaker 2: When COVID hit. I realized the kids were never going

2066
01:58:48,320 --> 01:58:49,880
Speaker 2: to move back to the Bay Area because they're not

2067
01:58:49,960 --> 01:58:53,600
Speaker 2: into tech. They're both very much into outdoors and that

2068
01:58:53,640 --> 01:58:55,760
Speaker 2: sort of thing, and so I had this idea of

2069
01:58:55,760 --> 01:58:59,720
Speaker 2: buying land with enough property, with enough land that maybe

2070
01:58:59,760 --> 01:59:02,360
Speaker 2: one day they could build the are hopefully encouraged they

2071
01:59:02,360 --> 01:59:03,960
Speaker 2: would both have a son and daughter. I wanted them

2072
01:59:04,000 --> 01:59:05,680
Speaker 2: both to live in the same area. So that way

2073
01:59:05,920 --> 01:59:08,720
Speaker 2: their kids would be friends. Very first place we were

2074
01:59:08,760 --> 01:59:11,000
Speaker 2: looking at we were up here kayaking. We went to

2075
01:59:11,000 --> 01:59:12,520
Speaker 2: look at a place I thought it would take me

2076
01:59:12,560 --> 01:59:16,120
Speaker 2: two years to find something that. It was a great house.

2077
01:59:16,160 --> 01:59:17,960
Speaker 2: It was perfect. It was right on this river, the

2078
01:59:17,960 --> 01:59:21,800
Speaker 2: White Salmon River, twelve acres. So I decided to move

2079
01:59:21,880 --> 01:59:24,400
Speaker 2: up here. Both the kids live up here now, so

2080
01:59:24,640 --> 01:59:28,480
Speaker 2: if you will, it worked. They both moved the area.

2081
01:59:29,000 --> 01:59:32,560
Speaker 2: It's an hour from the Portland airport, so I could

2082
01:59:32,600 --> 01:59:36,200
Speaker 2: basically get most anywhere without having to I was an

2083
01:59:36,240 --> 01:59:38,040
Speaker 2: hour from the airport in the Bay Area, so I

2084
01:59:38,080 --> 01:59:40,400
Speaker 2: travel Fairmount for work. I'm down in LA. I'm down

2085
01:59:40,400 --> 01:59:42,600
Speaker 2: in the Bay Area about you know, two weeks of

2086
01:59:42,600 --> 01:59:46,600
Speaker 2: the year, I'm somewhere traveling. And I like a lot

2087
01:59:46,600 --> 01:59:49,040
Speaker 2: of outdoor stuff in terms of hiking and all that stuff,

2088
01:59:49,680 --> 01:59:52,880
Speaker 2: biking and running, and so it's ended up being you know,

2089
01:59:53,160 --> 01:59:54,120
Speaker 2: it's end up being perfect.

2090
01:59:54,600 --> 01:59:56,720
Speaker 1: Okay, Dan, I think we've come to the end of

2091
01:59:56,760 --> 01:59:59,760
Speaker 1: the feeling we've known. I want to thank you for

2092
02:00:00,000 --> 02:00:02,160
Speaker 1: making all this time with my audience. You've been a

2093
02:00:02,200 --> 02:00:05,280
Speaker 1: great guest, fascinating and hopefully people will listen to this

2094
02:00:05,640 --> 02:00:06,800
Speaker 1: and be hip to twitch.

2095
02:00:07,600 --> 02:00:10,280
Speaker 2: All right, well, I appreciate you taking time, Bob, and

2096
02:00:10,520 --> 02:00:13,520
Speaker 2: it was lots of fun and for I guess for

2097
02:00:13,560 --> 02:00:16,760
Speaker 2: those people that are listening. If there are any musicians

2098
02:00:16,760 --> 02:00:20,240
Speaker 2: that are listening right, feel free to reach out to

2099
02:00:20,280 --> 02:00:22,720
Speaker 2: me on social media or something like that. If you're

2100
02:00:22,760 --> 02:00:24,280
Speaker 2: a musician and you want to get we have a

2101
02:00:24,320 --> 02:00:27,520
Speaker 2: team to help you and you can find me on

2102
02:00:27,600 --> 02:00:31,400
Speaker 2: various different social media. I shall say it's DJ Clancy's

2103
02:00:31,480 --> 02:00:34,040
Speaker 2: very confusing, but reach out to me and I'll try

2104
02:00:34,040 --> 02:00:36,960
Speaker 2: to connect you with the right people on our.

2105
02:00:38,240 --> 02:00:41,520
Speaker 1: Well that's quite an offer, so thanks Dan. Till next time.

2106
02:00:42,040 --> 02:00:43,240
Speaker 1: This is bob Lefs