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Speaker 1: Pushkin from Pushkin Industries. This is Deep Background, the show

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Speaker 1: where we explored the stories behind the stories in the news.

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Speaker 1: I'm Noah Feldman. This time we have a special episode

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Speaker 1: for you, which we recorded live on stage here in

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Speaker 1: Boston in front of an audience of more than a

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Speaker 1: thousand people. My guest was none other than Malcolm Gladwell.

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Speaker 1: He's a staff writer at The New Yorker, the author

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Speaker 1: of best selling books including Blink, The Tipping Point, and Outliers.

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Speaker 1: He's also the co founder of Pushkin Industries, the company

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Speaker 1: that makes this podcast. Malcolm just published a new book

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Speaker 1: called Talking to Strangers. We started there. Thank you all

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Speaker 1: very much for coming. Thank you Malcolm for coming to Boston.

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Speaker 1: I want to start by just asking you about the

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Speaker 1: person to whom this book is dedicated, Yes, namely your father. Yes,

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Speaker 1: the book starts with a very sweet anecdote about him,

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Speaker 1: and then somewhere buried in the middle of the book,

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Speaker 1: like at the beating heart of the book, isn't actually

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Speaker 1: deeply moving and a little bit shocking story in which

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Speaker 1: he figures what led you to think that he should

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Speaker 1: be the Is he the inspiring figure for this book? Well,

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Speaker 1: he was. I lost my father in twenty seventeen, so

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Speaker 1: he was clearly on my mind. But he well, I

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Speaker 1: you know, I opened the He does in some way

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Speaker 1: inspire this book because I tell the story at the

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Speaker 1: very very beginning of the book of when my parents

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Speaker 1: would come to Manhattan, I would put them up at

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Speaker 1: the Mercer Hotel, which is the most sort of celebrity

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Speaker 1: written hotel in New York and is a joke because

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Speaker 1: my parents. No two individuals know less about celebrity culture

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Speaker 1: than my parents, and so it was always a kind

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Speaker 1: of inside joke on my part to think of them

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Speaker 1: mingling with rock stars Joe and you shared with no

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Speaker 1: one but yourself until now, and then you're inside Joe.

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Speaker 1: So one time, my dad's staying there and I asked

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Speaker 1: him what he had done in the previous afternoon. He said, oh,

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Speaker 1: I had a wonderful conversation with someone in the lobby

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Speaker 1: about gardening. And so the only problem was that people

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Speaker 1: kept coming up to this man and asking him to

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Speaker 1: sign bits of paper and taking his picture, and so

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Speaker 1: I suppolled, you know, who was it? So I have

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Speaker 1: no idea, um, And it was clearly some just being

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Speaker 1: the Mercer, some massive celebrity and I've scased the last

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Speaker 1: this was ten years ago, the last ten years trying

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Speaker 1: to figure out who it was. And you can be

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Speaker 1: a pretty big celebrity in the Mercer Hotel and no

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Speaker 1: one will come over to you because it's not cool

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Speaker 1: to do that. First of all, there's several key facts here.

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Speaker 1: What is that it's in the part of a part

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Speaker 1: of the Mercer that's only opened guests, and this is

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Speaker 1: where they were, so right away, the fact that own

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Speaker 1: other celebrities were coming up to this celebrity is brucial.

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Speaker 1: Second is my father. How all I can say is

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Speaker 1: he had a clear preference for talking with other Englishmen,

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Speaker 1: ay and be for people his own age. So I

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Speaker 1: think it's someone born in the nineteen thirties in England

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Speaker 1: who liked gardening, and he was a major celebrity. So

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Speaker 1: so I've been asking people and someone recently said, I

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Speaker 1: think a very good guess Michael Caine. Ah. Can you

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Speaker 1: can imagine people approaching Michael Caine. You can imagine Michael

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Speaker 1: Caine talking about apparently he's a big gardener that I was.

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Speaker 1: That actually surprises me. And and also kind of lower

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Speaker 1: middle class as my father was. And you know when

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Speaker 1: Britt's congregate. Outside of England, they do the class thing

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Speaker 1: instantly and then when they realized also do that inside

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Speaker 1: of English. Yes, they just do that everywhere. They might

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Speaker 1: do it more aggressively outside of him, but like once

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Speaker 1: they discover they're from the same narrow slice. Like I

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Speaker 1: once saw my father who was chatting with someone who

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Speaker 1: was from the same town in Kent that he was from,

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Speaker 1: and my father with that they hadn't done the class

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Speaker 1: thing yet, and he told it was a woman. He

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Speaker 1: told this woman that he used to break into some

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Speaker 1: estate and play in the garden, and she paused and said, oh,

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Speaker 1: that was my estate, And that was the end of

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Speaker 1: the conversation. But what is my father did like to

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Speaker 1: talk to strangers, and he um he embodied one of

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Speaker 1: the principles of the book, which is he did not

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Speaker 1: expect a conversation with a stranger to yield much about

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Speaker 1: the stranger. In other words, he could talk for an

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Speaker 1: hour with gardening about gardening with Michael Caine and never

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Speaker 1: discovered that Michael Caine was a famous actor. And is

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Speaker 1: that because talking about gardening is a form of small

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Speaker 1: talk or is it the opposite? Is it that talking

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Speaker 1: about gardening is so deeply interesting to the gardeners that

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Speaker 1: that you can have a deep, substantive, meaningful conversation. It

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Speaker 1: never comes up you know, what do you do for

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Speaker 1: a living? Or no, it's you've lost your Harrison's outfear. Well,

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Speaker 1: it's very English to have a subject that allows you

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Speaker 1: to avoid all intimacy, like the weather, like the weather

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Speaker 1: or gardening, but also it's something to do genuinely. A

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Speaker 1: wonderful fact about my father, which is I think he

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Speaker 1: understood that if you spend too much time gathering information

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Speaker 1: on a person you're talking to, you're only going to

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Speaker 1: find ways of alienating yourself from that person. So my father,

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Speaker 1: the more you know, the less yeah, you don't want

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Speaker 1: to will be yeah, you don't want to discover it,

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Speaker 1: you don't have in common with them. So he was famous.

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Speaker 1: So my father was a you know, he was a

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Speaker 1: mathematics PhD. Whose head was somewhere up here, but he

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Speaker 1: was always falling into conversation with people like his. He

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Speaker 1: was great friends with our neighbor who probably had a

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Speaker 1: seventh grade education, and it's because they never got past

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Speaker 1: They would also talk about Guardian a person now but

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Speaker 1: I sort of love that sort of you know that

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Speaker 1: I love that, and that's sort of part of where

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Speaker 1: I end up in the book, which is that we

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Speaker 1: expect to weigh too much from these conversations, and they're

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Speaker 1: dangerous when they get too aggressive. But in your book,

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Speaker 1: you've got lots and lots of examples of conversations that

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Speaker 1: go awry. Yeah. In fact, there's almost there are very

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Speaker 1: few conversations in the whole book other than your father's

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Speaker 1: conversation with the unnamed Englishmen, that go okay at all.

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Speaker 1: So I'm sort of wondering, do you agree with your

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Speaker 1: father's idea that, you know, maybe we should just talk

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Speaker 1: less to everybody you know, or at least less to

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Speaker 1: people whom we don't have immediate and total connection to.

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Speaker 1: Or is the whole point that we should talk to

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Speaker 1: them but not expect very much from the conversation. I

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Speaker 1: think the whole point is that we should talk to

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Speaker 1: them and not expect very much in the conversation. Noways

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Speaker 1: I've become Then why talk at all? No, because you

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Speaker 1: can have a meaningful conversation in the absence of drawing

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Speaker 1: aggressive conclusions about the nature of the person you're talking to.

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Speaker 1: So I think this is I mean, the real issue

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Speaker 1: in the book, and the reason the book begins and

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Speaker 1: ends with the story of Sandra Bland, is that the

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Speaker 1: thing about that encounter, she's pulled over by the side

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Speaker 1: the road in small town taxes by a police officer,

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Speaker 1: and the thing that leads that encounter to end in

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Speaker 1: tragedy is that the police officer takes it upon himself

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Speaker 1: to reach enormously consequential conclusions about Sandra Bland in the

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Speaker 1: absence both in the space of thirty seconds and in

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Speaker 1: the absence of any real evidence at all. Right, that's

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Speaker 1: what what is wrong with what he does, among other things,

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Speaker 1: is it is in such a hurry, and his ambitions

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Speaker 1: are so enormous he really thinks he pulls her over

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Speaker 1: because he thinks there is a chance he pullsoever because

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Speaker 1: she's out of state, black and driving a hunday. Right,

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Speaker 1: And there are policies covering at least two of those things,

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Speaker 1: officially in one of them on officially, yeah, that there are.

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Speaker 1: And he has been trained to pull over people who

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Speaker 1: are who are you know the phrase what the lovely

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Speaker 1: in quotation marks phrase that law enforcement uses curiosity ticklers.

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Speaker 1: So she has violated, she has she has activated several

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Speaker 1: of his curiosity ticklers by virtue of she and he

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Speaker 1: had noticed her while she was turning out of the

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Speaker 1: campus of Prairie View University, and he noticed her notices

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Speaker 1: that while she's on university territory, she rolls through a

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Speaker 1: stop sign. So she has rolled to a stop sign.

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Speaker 1: She's black, she's twenty eight, she's driving a Honday, she's

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Speaker 1: got Chicago plates. And he says, that's for curiosity ticklers,

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Speaker 1: and so he contrives a reason to pull her over.

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Speaker 1: He sort of creates the reason, creates the reason by

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Speaker 1: driving up fast behind her, which leads her to get

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Speaker 1: out of his way, and then she doesn't use her

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Speaker 1: turn signal. He has his pretexts, and then he creates

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Speaker 1: a fantasy about this person he's pulled over. And the

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Speaker 1: fantasy is that she's dangerous. And this comes up later

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Speaker 1: in the you know, in the course of the investigation,

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Speaker 1: he gives this deposition. And what's weird actually what the

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Speaker 1: deposition is that even though the case itself when it happened,

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Speaker 1: attracted attention, you know, around the world as far as

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Speaker 1: I can find. That was like one minor story in

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Speaker 1: the Austin Statesman about the deposition, and that was it.

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Speaker 1: The deposition was completely ignored. Even when the deposition is

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Speaker 1: like deeply revealing, deeply revealing, and you realize what a

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Speaker 1: what a you know, like I said, like this bizarre

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Speaker 1: fantasy that he creates in that moment that she is

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Speaker 1: dangerous and harboring some deep criminal intent on the basis

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Speaker 1: of the flimsiest and most misleading of cues. And it's

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Speaker 1: that that I think is problematic and that we need

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Speaker 1: to sort of zero in on. One of the fascinating

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Speaker 1: things though about your treatment of that whole deposition is

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Speaker 1: that you believe him when he says he thought she

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Speaker 1: was dangerous. I do. You can imagine that other readers

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Speaker 1: might be more skeptical and say, you know, and you

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Speaker 1: consider this view in the in the book and passing

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Speaker 1: at least, No, he was just a racist, and not

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Speaker 1: only an individual way, but also in the production of

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Speaker 1: the structural racism of the cops and the stop and

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Speaker 1: frisk and so forth, rather the pulling over of supposed

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Speaker 1: to traffic violations. And then later in a deposition under oath,

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Speaker 1: he wanted to explain why he stopped her, and he

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Speaker 1: made up these reasons after the fact yeah, but you

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Speaker 1: don't think that you buy what he's saying. And that's

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Speaker 1: partly because you're I don't want to say this, but

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Speaker 1: maybe you're defaulting to truth and believing his account. I

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Speaker 1: am devaulting to truth. I have two the magic thing

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Speaker 1: in the book, defaulting to truth. And you're not supposed

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Speaker 1: to do it. Yeah, I have. Well, you are supposed

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Speaker 1: to do it, but let me explain will to do it.

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Speaker 1: You're be able to do it. That makes me why

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Speaker 1: I believe him when he says that two reasons. One

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Speaker 1: is that if you look at his so we have

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Speaker 1: from the Texas how he Patrol has on file, you

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Speaker 1: can find it a complete record of every traffic stop

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Speaker 1: he ever made as a member of the of the

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Speaker 1: police force. And what you see when you look at

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Speaker 1: that is that Kim stopping Sandra blend On the flimsiest

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Speaker 1: of pretexts was not an anomaly. It was what he did. Yes,

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Speaker 1: he was, I mean he is. The further you can say,

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Speaker 1: you can say that he is by the standards of

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Speaker 1: what we want, what the Texas Harry Patrol wants a

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Speaker 1: cop to be. He's not a bad cop. He's an

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Speaker 1: ideal cop. They are trained to stop people on the

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Speaker 1: flimsiest of pretext and he did exactly as he was

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Speaker 1: trained to do. His whole career was stopping people on

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Speaker 1: flimsy pretexts. Right. So it's like if you look at

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Speaker 1: the list of reasons of first of all, you look

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Speaker 1: at the number of people he stopped, he's stopping. He's

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Speaker 1: jumping out of his car four or five, six times

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Speaker 1: an hour. And to put this in context, if you

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Speaker 1: go back twenty five years and you do a similar

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Speaker 1: search of what police officers did, you will discover they

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Speaker 1: never got out of their car. If you were a

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Speaker 1: police officer in smalltown, Texas in nineteen seventy five, you

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Speaker 1: get out of your car to get donuts, like you

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Speaker 1: did not the last thing you did was pull over

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Speaker 1: people who are driving down a road for Note that

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Speaker 1: the whole notion of policing was different. You sat in

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Speaker 1: your car and you waited for a call after some

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Speaker 1: and you reacted to something you could happen. This is

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Speaker 1: a whole new way of policing, and he was the

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Speaker 1: perfect embodiment of this new philosophy he's starting and you

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Speaker 1: look at the list he's stopping people for. You know,

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Speaker 1: the light above their license plate is out and he

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Speaker 1: pulls you over. Why because he thinks that maybe there

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Speaker 1: may be reason to believe that if you're the kind

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Speaker 1: of person who didn't attend to the broken bulb above

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Speaker 1: your license plate, then you're also the kind of person

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Speaker 1: who is smuggling drugs. Right, that's the theory. He never

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Speaker 1: found anything. Right, if you look at his long time

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Speaker 1: on the force, the man stops, you know, dozens upon

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Speaker 1: dozens of people, and the sum total of all of

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Speaker 1: that frenzied activity is like, once he stops a kid

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Speaker 1: who is I think has a token amount of marijuana

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Speaker 1: in his car. He may have got a gun once,

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Speaker 1: but basically he's coming up with nothing. So so reason

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Speaker 1: number one for me to believe him is that he

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Speaker 1: is so. What he does with sangel Blend is so

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Speaker 1: a part of who he is. There's not an expression

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Speaker 1: of some kind of of latent prejudice. It is an

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Speaker 1: expression of his training as a police officer. Secondly, it's

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Speaker 1: not inconsistent to say that he's scared of her because

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Speaker 1: he's a racist. In fact, it's entirely consistent. That's why

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Speaker 1: he's scared of her because she's actually bigger, than he is,

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Speaker 1: and she's black, and that makes it And because he

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Speaker 1: assumes that big black people are scary, it makes it

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Speaker 1: really easy for him to construct a scenario where she's

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Speaker 1: a threatening criminal and he is trying to uphold law

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Speaker 1: and order. So the racist argument and the argument that

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Speaker 1: she's scary are consistent, not inconsistent. And thirdly, there are

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Speaker 1: actual things that he does. He approaches her for the

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Speaker 1: first time on the passenger side, which is what you

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Speaker 1: do when you're not scared, and then he goes back

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Speaker 1: to his car, and then the second time he goes

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Speaker 1: up after he sits in his car, and he constructs

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Speaker 1: this fantasy. He approaches her on the driver's side. And

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Speaker 1: that's the only reason you would do that on a

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Speaker 1: highway traffic stop. So he exposed himself to the traffic

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Speaker 1: by approaching on the driver's side. Is if you think

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Speaker 1: the person has a gun, because you can defend yourself

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Speaker 1: if you approach on the driver's side, and you are

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Speaker 1: a target if you approach on the passenger's side. So

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Speaker 1: that all those things make me think, yeah, the man's terrified.

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Speaker 1: I mean. And by the way, the way we train

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Speaker 1: police officers in the present day is to be terrified, right,

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Speaker 1: like that the only way that the reason people who

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Speaker 1: deny that, think that he's making up a cover story

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Speaker 1: are wholly ignorant of the totally perverse way modern law

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Speaker 1: enforcement works. Right, He's trained to be terrified. Of course

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Speaker 1: he's terrified. So I'm feeling a little terrified. That was

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Speaker 1: a very effective invocation of the experience. When you think

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Speaker 1: about people who talk to strangers for a living, yeah,

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Speaker 1: cops are an example, and it's particularly egregious because after all,

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Speaker 1: he's talked to all those people that he stopped, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and he's tried to make some termination about how dangerous

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Speaker 1: they are. But another kind of person, there are two

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Speaker 1: other kinds of people who immediate leap to my mind

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Speaker 1: when I think about people who talk to strangers. One

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Speaker 1: is salespeople. Yeah, because you're often selling to strangers and

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Speaker 1: they're it's sort of an interesting counterexample because there you're

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Speaker 1: doing everything you can to comprehend them in order to

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Speaker 1: produce an effective sale. And I just wonder whether I

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Speaker 1: don't I have no idea, I wonder if salespeople do

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Speaker 1: better at talking to strangers insofar as they're trying to

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Speaker 1: make a sale and in fact, to the extent this

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Speaker 1: comes up in your book, it's from the other side.

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Speaker 1: It's from the buyer, as it were, you know, the

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Speaker 1: person who believes what the salesman is this the pitch

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Speaker 1: that the salesman is saying. Yeah. And then the other

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Speaker 1: group of people who also come up in the book

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Speaker 1: are anthropologists. Yeah, and you take us into the into

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Speaker 1: Central America, a very intrepid part of anthropologists to actually Indonesia,

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Speaker 1: to Indonesia. Sorry, who go to a village where people

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Speaker 1: drink alcohol that turns out to be is it one

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Speaker 1: hundred and oh that story? Yes, yeah, I'm mixing up

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Speaker 1: my anthropology stories. Yes, there's several anthropologists anthropologies, Yes you are,

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Speaker 1: I'm talking about the drunk anthropologists. Yes, yeah, you know

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Speaker 1: all of Malcolm's I mean as as you can guess

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Speaker 1: and as you will know as soon as you read

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Speaker 1: this book. It's a classic, the great read. And every

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Speaker 1: you know anecdote could have a name, and this is

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Speaker 1: the Adventure of the Drunken Apologists. Yes, every it's like

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Speaker 1: every you can play a game where every Malcolm god

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Speaker 1: Well anecdote could be turned into the name of a

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Speaker 1: Sherlock Holms story. That's sorry. You know, so here these

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Speaker 1: anthropologists they do really well and talking to strangers, it seems,

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Speaker 1: at least in your I'm sure not all anthropologists do

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Speaker 1: do well that that that's what they're trying to do.

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Speaker 1: So I wonder is there something we could learn from

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Speaker 1: either salesman or anthropologists, Yes, about how to go about

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Speaker 1: talking strangers. The end of the salesman part is really

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Speaker 1: interesting because what is it that a successful salesperson does.

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Speaker 1: They The first thing they do before they size up

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Speaker 1: the person they're trying to sell to, is they sell themselves, right.

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Speaker 1: They established their credibility, their friendliness, their interests there. You know,

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Speaker 1: I once seen one of my earlier books, I like

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Speaker 1: when you Go to Sell a book. Yes, I had

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Speaker 1: a profile of the number one car salesman in America.

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Speaker 1: Who was this guy in rural New Jersey. And he

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Speaker 1: was really really fascinating and he was his record was

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Speaker 1: I mean, he was like an order of magnitude better

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Speaker 1: than anybody else. And he was the kind of most

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Speaker 1: there was nothing. He wasn't a fast talking, slick guy.

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Speaker 1: He was the opposite. He was this guy. When you

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Speaker 1: met him, he just oozed authenticity and he impressed upon

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Speaker 1: you before he even sized you up. He impressed upon

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Speaker 1: you the fact that he was a straight shooting, normal

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Speaker 1: guy who was not trying to hustle you. On the contrary,

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Speaker 1: he just cared about, you know, serving your interests. And

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Speaker 1: he was genuine. I think he actually genuine he believed

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Speaker 1: that that's what he was doing. But kinds of genuine.

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Speaker 1: There's he genuinely believed that's what he was doing, and

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Speaker 1: there's that is genuinely what he was doing. I think

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Speaker 1: that's genuinely what he was doing because he pointed out

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Speaker 1: he was just doing people the favor of selling them.

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Speaker 1: Because because he made this really interesting point, which is

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Speaker 1: that if you're a car salesman, and I love the

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Speaker 1: fact that we've now detoured into car salesman's but he

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Speaker 1: says the thing about the mistake he was I asked

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Speaker 1: him to talk about, what are the mistakes your peers make?

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Speaker 1: So why what does everyone else do such a bad

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Speaker 1: job of selling cars and you are so good? And

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Speaker 1: he said, well, the mistake they make is that they

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Speaker 1: think it's all about the person in front of them.

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Speaker 1: But he said, no, no no, success in this business is

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Speaker 1: about referrals. He's like a successful sale for me, is

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Speaker 1: whether I don't sell the person in front of me

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Speaker 1: a car, But they liked me so much that they

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Speaker 1: go home and when their friends are buying a car,

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Speaker 1: they say, oh, you should go talk to that guy.

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Speaker 1: He was really nice. That's where was a volume business.

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Speaker 1: Yes you want, you want, and that person might tell

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Speaker 1: four people and you might sell three cars because of

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Speaker 1: that one successful. So the other rule he had was

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Speaker 1: you can never dismiss so anyone who comes into the

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Speaker 1: dealership deserves your full attention. So he never judged anyone.

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Speaker 1: If you were a seven year old kid, he would

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Speaker 1: treat you as seriously as if you were, you know,

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Speaker 1: a millionaire. Why because you don't know who the seven

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Speaker 1: year old kid's father or uncle or grandfather is. So

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Speaker 1: he would spend this whole afternoon who the seven year

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Speaker 1: old kids? I thought it was kind of fascinating. But

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Speaker 1: the point was he begins with establishing his own credibility.

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Speaker 1: And this is of course exactly what Brian and Cinia

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Speaker 1: in the cop in the Sandra Bland case does not do.

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Speaker 1: He behaves without regard for his own credibility. In fact,

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Speaker 1: he blows his credibility before she even meets him by

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Speaker 1: pulling her over on a nonsensical traffic stop. And the

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Speaker 1: idea that we have trained police officers to behave in

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Speaker 1: such a way that their credibility is destroyed before they

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Speaker 1: even meet the person they're pulling over is incredib Right.

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Speaker 1: We should be taking the people training cops and sending

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Speaker 1: them to meet with this car salesman and he could

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Speaker 1: teach them something, right. So, I mean, it's funny because

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Speaker 1: I spent a lot of time in a book with

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Speaker 1: these two brilliant criminologists who have rethought a lot of

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Speaker 1: David Weisbergen and Larry Schreman, and they think endlessly about this.

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Speaker 1: It's like the first task of a police officer in

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Speaker 1: dealing with any member of the public is to establish

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Speaker 1: their credibilion integrity. But you can't do anything before you

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Speaker 1: do that, whereas presumably what a lot of people think

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Speaker 1: is that they should establish our authority. Yes, exactly, and

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Speaker 1: that is there's a huge difference between those two those

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Speaker 1: two things. Now, when you talk though about the salesman

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Speaker 1: who established his authority, that's also what your spies did

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Speaker 1: in the book. Yeah, right, they were really good at

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Speaker 1: establishing their authority. Yeah, there's a lot of spies in

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Speaker 1: the book In case you loved it, it's a lot

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Speaker 1: of spies and a lot of really cool spies. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and so you establish authority and then the other person

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Speaker 1: will believe whatever you say. Do you think people believe

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Speaker 1: what the salesman said or they discounted what he was saying,

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Speaker 1: but they needed to buy a car, and they figured

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Speaker 1: he was a nice guy and they might as well

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Speaker 1: buy the car from him. No, I think that I

398
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Speaker 1: think they were. They are when they enter a dealership.

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Speaker 1: They are desperate to find someone who seems to have

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Speaker 1: their best interest at heart. There's I mean, I think.

401
00:21:41,796 --> 00:21:44,116
Speaker 1: I mean his argument was that people enter a car

402
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Speaker 1: dealership and their expectations are really, really low. They've had

403
00:21:48,796 --> 00:21:51,396
Speaker 1: so many bad experiences over the years, and that just

404
00:21:51,436 --> 00:21:53,916
Speaker 1: by being a normal human being he can sell well

405
00:21:53,956 --> 00:22:00,156
Speaker 1: caused anyone else in America ms the stunning thought. But spies.

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Speaker 1: So since writing a book, I've the more I think

407
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Speaker 1: about this, the more of a radical position I take

408
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Speaker 1: on spies. Okay, good, let's get let's to the let's

409
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Speaker 1: get into some spy radicalism. So spies and there's I

410
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Speaker 1: was reading this article in one of the you know,

411
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Speaker 1: they are all these journals devoted to spies. We're academic

412
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Speaker 1: and Bertward who writes in there like they're all x

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Speaker 1: CIA officers or XMI six officers. And there was one

414
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Speaker 1: really really brilliant essay I read recently by a guy

415
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Speaker 1: who said, you know, if you take the long view

416
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Speaker 1: and you see that, well, during the Cold War we

417
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Speaker 1: had Aldri Shames and m Robert Hansen and a couple

418
00:22:40,596 --> 00:22:42,836
Speaker 1: of other ones. But if you look at all of

419
00:22:42,876 --> 00:22:46,236
Speaker 1: the damage they did, they basically give gave away all

420
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Speaker 1: of our key secrets. It only took a few but

421
00:22:48,276 --> 00:22:50,516
Speaker 1: they gave away all of the secrets because they had

422
00:22:50,516 --> 00:22:52,356
Speaker 1: they were really high up boats in the CI and FBI.

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Speaker 1: And on the flip side, we had a couple of

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Speaker 1: people who come over from the Soviet side who basically

425
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Speaker 1: gave away all their key secrets. He said, so it

426
00:22:59,076 --> 00:23:01,916
Speaker 1: was a wash in the end, like the Cold War itself,

427
00:23:01,996 --> 00:23:03,916
Speaker 1: the Cold like the Cold War itself. And he's like,

428
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Speaker 1: so this guy was like, who is himself a spy guy?

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Speaker 1: He's like, looking at the evidence of the Cold War,

430
00:23:07,916 --> 00:23:10,756
Speaker 1: you should we should just give up, Like we should

431
00:23:10,756 --> 00:23:14,196
Speaker 1: just have saved ourself billions of dollars by by shutting

432
00:23:14,196 --> 00:23:19,236
Speaker 1: down all of the covert covert espionage operations of the CIA,

433
00:23:19,316 --> 00:23:22,676
Speaker 1: like we ended up no further ahead than we then

434
00:23:22,716 --> 00:23:24,356
Speaker 1: we would have been if we had had no spies

435
00:23:24,436 --> 00:23:26,116
Speaker 1: at all. And I tell the story in the book.

436
00:23:26,236 --> 00:23:27,556
Speaker 1: We need a treaty for that though, right, because it

437
00:23:27,636 --> 00:23:29,596
Speaker 1: has to be bilateral doesn't work if we give up

438
00:23:29,636 --> 00:23:31,116
Speaker 1: our spies and they don't give up their spies. It

439
00:23:31,116 --> 00:23:32,796
Speaker 1: has to be you have to sign a treaty. We

440
00:23:32,836 --> 00:23:35,836
Speaker 1: have to total disclosure of every total disclosure, which everyone

441
00:23:35,836 --> 00:23:41,196
Speaker 1: would then lie about. But uh if but if we don't, no,

442
00:23:41,196 --> 00:23:42,156
Speaker 1: no, no no, no, you don't have to do it. You

443
00:23:42,156 --> 00:23:44,716
Speaker 1: can be don't know, think about this laterally. It can

444
00:23:44,756 --> 00:23:47,996
Speaker 1: be done utilaterally because we're shutting. If we shut down

445
00:23:47,996 --> 00:23:50,676
Speaker 1: our spy service, then there is no spy service for

446
00:23:50,716 --> 00:23:55,036
Speaker 1: them to infiltrate. Right, we have removed the post, but

447
00:23:55,036 --> 00:23:57,796
Speaker 1: there's no spies, no no by on the non spots,

448
00:23:57,796 --> 00:23:59,596
Speaker 1: there's no what are they gonna do? So the Soviets

449
00:23:59,596 --> 00:24:01,876
Speaker 1: send a spy like go and spine the Department of

450
00:24:01,916 --> 00:24:07,076
Speaker 1: Agriculture like, go ahead, it's all yours, go right in. No,

451
00:24:07,116 --> 00:24:09,316
Speaker 1: there's no more, well there is the Defense Department. I

452
00:24:09,316 --> 00:24:10,796
Speaker 1: mean I like this. I like that, I like where

453
00:24:10,796 --> 00:24:13,796
Speaker 1: you're going here, and maybe the defense but there is

454
00:24:13,836 --> 00:24:17,516
Speaker 1: like the defense department, I know. But mostly what the

455
00:24:17,556 --> 00:24:20,276
Speaker 1: Soviets are doing is spying on our spies, and we're

456
00:24:20,276 --> 00:24:21,916
Speaker 1: spying on the round. Although I guess the Chinese do

457
00:24:21,916 --> 00:24:25,076
Speaker 1: it differently because they are mostly trying to steal technology,

458
00:24:25,116 --> 00:24:28,796
Speaker 1: technology and secrets. Okay, so let's let's blog and secrets.

459
00:24:28,956 --> 00:24:31,556
Speaker 1: But it's clear that an awful lot of this activity

460
00:24:31,636 --> 00:24:34,836
Speaker 1: is just a merrygo round, yes, and we should sing around.

461
00:24:34,956 --> 00:24:37,356
Speaker 1: And billions and billions and billions of dollars were spent

462
00:24:37,396 --> 00:24:40,236
Speaker 1: on the merrygor around, right, So this is I found

463
00:24:40,356 --> 00:24:41,996
Speaker 1: like for a spy to say this, and like I

464
00:24:42,236 --> 00:24:45,516
Speaker 1: tell the story and of how I opened the book

465
00:24:45,516 --> 00:24:48,916
Speaker 1: with a story of how the there's a defector comes

466
00:24:48,916 --> 00:24:52,956
Speaker 1: over from Cuba and he calls together all the leading

467
00:24:53,076 --> 00:24:57,956
Speaker 1: CIA people running our Cuban espionage operations. It says, um,

468
00:24:57,996 --> 00:25:00,956
Speaker 1: not one, but not two and nuts free, but every

469
00:25:00,996 --> 00:25:03,636
Speaker 1: single spy you have in Cuba right now is a

470
00:25:03,676 --> 00:25:06,876
Speaker 1: double agent working for Castra. The whole thing. Like so

471
00:25:06,996 --> 00:25:10,756
Speaker 1: like it was pointless, why bother shut you know? We

472
00:25:10,796 --> 00:25:13,556
Speaker 1: had an operation in Havana inside the whatever it is,

473
00:25:13,556 --> 00:25:16,196
Speaker 1: the Swiss embassy for years and years years the whole

474
00:25:16,196 --> 00:25:18,676
Speaker 1: thing was a wash, like it worse than a wash.

475
00:25:18,796 --> 00:25:20,676
Speaker 1: But so okay, let me let me try to up

476
00:25:20,676 --> 00:25:23,876
Speaker 1: the radicalism here. So you can imagine someone saying, well,

477
00:25:23,916 --> 00:25:27,076
Speaker 1: this is true of all arms races, right, each side

478
00:25:27,116 --> 00:25:29,916
Speaker 1: goes like crazy. And there is a theory that at

479
00:25:29,916 --> 00:25:31,836
Speaker 1: the point that the way the United States quote unquote

480
00:25:31,836 --> 00:25:33,836
Speaker 1: won the Cold War was just by outspending the Soviets.

481
00:25:33,876 --> 00:25:35,756
Speaker 1: So then there was a point we just waste more

482
00:25:35,756 --> 00:25:37,276
Speaker 1: money than you do, and since we can afford to,

483
00:25:37,356 --> 00:25:41,196
Speaker 1: we win. Yeah. Depressing, but maybe it's true. But if

484
00:25:41,196 --> 00:25:43,276
Speaker 1: you ask the Defense depart in people, they would say,

485
00:25:43,516 --> 00:25:47,036
Speaker 1: what do you mean intelligence services are expensive? They're really cheap,

486
00:25:47,756 --> 00:25:50,556
Speaker 1: Like you can have an entire intelligence service of thousands

487
00:25:50,556 --> 00:25:52,796
Speaker 1: and thousands of spies for the price of like one

488
00:25:52,916 --> 00:25:57,636
Speaker 1: fighter bomber. Yeah, that the equipment is really expensive, but

489
00:25:57,756 --> 00:26:01,596
Speaker 1: humans are relatively relatively inexpensive, and they don't actually have

490
00:26:01,676 --> 00:26:04,196
Speaker 1: you know, the James Bond, you know flying cars. I

491
00:26:04,196 --> 00:26:07,236
Speaker 1: mean there is no queue strictly speaking, well, so you know,

492
00:26:07,676 --> 00:26:11,916
Speaker 1: after yes, all right, although I will say that remember

493
00:26:11,956 --> 00:26:16,596
Speaker 1: after snowdon and gives away the end at the store

494
00:26:16,636 --> 00:26:19,436
Speaker 1: and at the NSA, there was all this handwringing about

495
00:26:19,436 --> 00:26:21,836
Speaker 1: how much it was going to cost, and the numbers

496
00:26:21,836 --> 00:26:24,036
Speaker 1: were I mean, they were not trivial. They were talking

497
00:26:24,076 --> 00:26:26,596
Speaker 1: about many, many, many billions of dollars, which again raised

498
00:26:26,596 --> 00:26:29,276
Speaker 1: the point like if this thing that you've constructed over

499
00:26:29,356 --> 00:26:33,396
Speaker 1: many many years, costing tens of billions of dollars, can

500
00:26:33,436 --> 00:26:36,796
Speaker 1: be essentially destroyed by one guy working for Dell, not

501
00:26:36,876 --> 00:26:40,596
Speaker 1: even like some random dude way off in the middle

502
00:26:40,596 --> 00:26:44,436
Speaker 1: of nowhere who is a subcontractor for Dell and who

503
00:26:44,876 --> 00:26:48,556
Speaker 1: himself you know, Snowden gets kicked you gore to college education. Yeah,

504
00:26:48,636 --> 00:26:50,596
Speaker 1: and he gets He tries to work for the CIA,

505
00:26:50,676 --> 00:26:52,276
Speaker 1: gets a job because it's like uncle gets him in,

506
00:26:52,476 --> 00:26:56,476
Speaker 1: gets kicked out. Why because he hacks into the personnel

507
00:26:56,556 --> 00:26:59,556
Speaker 1: database and changes his job evaluations so he looks good.

508
00:26:59,756 --> 00:27:02,916
Speaker 1: They discover this, I'm like, oh, this guy is a

509
00:27:02,916 --> 00:27:05,996
Speaker 1: a fraud, be a hacker, and the movies he would

510
00:27:05,996 --> 00:27:08,676
Speaker 1: have promoted him and see and see only got a

511
00:27:08,716 --> 00:27:10,836
Speaker 1: job because his uncle weighs in. So what does he do?

512
00:27:10,836 --> 00:27:13,076
Speaker 1: They fire him? What does he do? He resurfaces at

513
00:27:13,116 --> 00:27:16,196
Speaker 1: del and gets in again. Like if this is the system.

514
00:27:16,356 --> 00:27:19,716
Speaker 1: Is there any point to having the system like there

515
00:27:19,836 --> 00:27:22,676
Speaker 1: is this I you know, there is a point where

516
00:27:23,076 --> 00:27:26,316
Speaker 1: you have to wonder. And it's funny when you think

517
00:27:26,356 --> 00:27:28,756
Speaker 1: about it, how many American institutions are in the grip

518
00:27:28,796 --> 00:27:33,636
Speaker 1: of arms races. I mean, basically, what twenty first century

519
00:27:33,676 --> 00:27:37,756
Speaker 1: capitalism is is a series of I mean, is it

520
00:27:37,836 --> 00:27:39,716
Speaker 1: is a you start with the marketplace, I mean you

521
00:27:39,836 --> 00:27:43,876
Speaker 1: rapidly moved to a an arms race that has no

522
00:27:43,916 --> 00:27:47,156
Speaker 1: productive function. Coke versus PEPSI. I was going to say

523
00:27:47,476 --> 00:27:51,916
Speaker 1: Harvard versus Yale, but that would maybe maybe a better example,

524
00:27:51,956 --> 00:27:55,236
Speaker 1: more expensive, more expensive example, or you know, Harvard Deaconess

525
00:27:55,356 --> 00:27:58,596
Speaker 1: versus you know about SIONI or some I mean, they're

526
00:27:58,636 --> 00:27:59,996
Speaker 1: all of these things. They're all they all have the

527
00:28:00,036 --> 00:28:02,516
Speaker 1: same function, which is they're on the same kind of treadmill.

528
00:28:02,636 --> 00:28:05,196
Speaker 1: And there's no as a point on which the spending

529
00:28:05,236 --> 00:28:07,636
Speaker 1: no longer has any productive function. So the standard I

530
00:28:07,636 --> 00:28:09,956
Speaker 1: mean sent there's a standard aswer to the question of

531
00:28:09,956 --> 00:28:11,996
Speaker 1: why do we bother to compete, even though a lot

532
00:28:11,996 --> 00:28:15,556
Speaker 1: of competition is idiotic and pointless. Usually it's the alternative

533
00:28:16,236 --> 00:28:19,356
Speaker 1: is that we're colluding, and if we collude, we'll have

534
00:28:19,396 --> 00:28:23,076
Speaker 1: no incentive to try to do our jobs. Well, yeah,

535
00:28:23,156 --> 00:28:26,276
Speaker 1: do you think that's just basically a ridiculous Well, you

536
00:28:26,276 --> 00:28:32,436
Speaker 1: can compete on things that matter and what counts well,

537
00:28:32,476 --> 00:28:35,196
Speaker 1: it would be nice, for example, if universities competed on

538
00:28:35,356 --> 00:28:37,796
Speaker 1: how well they were educating children who needed to be

539
00:28:37,916 --> 00:28:42,916
Speaker 1: educated for example. I mean, I mean, I would seem

540
00:28:42,956 --> 00:28:47,676
Speaker 1: to be just we think we are competing on that,

541
00:28:48,116 --> 00:28:49,956
Speaker 1: Like that's what we tell ourselves. That's a sad thing

542
00:28:49,956 --> 00:28:52,636
Speaker 1: about it. Maybe sad institution that you work for. Yes,

543
00:28:52,756 --> 00:28:54,676
Speaker 1: I did hear your I did hear the podcast about

544
00:28:54,676 --> 00:28:58,596
Speaker 1: the LSA TU So yeah, yeah you yeah, I was

545
00:28:58,636 --> 00:29:00,756
Speaker 1: going to tell you, by the way, I'm probably most

546
00:29:00,756 --> 00:29:03,436
Speaker 1: people you ever heard the Malcolm's episode about the LSAT.

547
00:29:03,636 --> 00:29:08,196
Speaker 1: I only give eight hour open open everything. Yeah, I've

548
00:29:08,236 --> 00:29:10,116
Speaker 1: never done the So good for you. Yeah, we're think

549
00:29:10,116 --> 00:29:12,196
Speaker 1: it's because it as you say, it seems were you

550
00:29:12,236 --> 00:29:14,676
Speaker 1: revealed to us what year else's score was. Well, I

551
00:29:14,756 --> 00:29:16,836
Speaker 1: revealed to you what my score was. I got a

552
00:29:16,876 --> 00:29:18,836
Speaker 1: lower score on the l set than I ever got

553
00:29:18,876 --> 00:29:23,116
Speaker 1: on any other standardized test. Okay about that? Is that good? No?

554
00:29:27,036 --> 00:29:29,916
Speaker 1: We were you was impressed by its idiocy, as I

555
00:29:29,996 --> 00:29:33,716
Speaker 1: was deeply impressed by the idiocy. Yeah, I the logic games.

556
00:29:33,796 --> 00:29:36,716
Speaker 1: I just thought were they and truth to be told,

557
00:29:36,716 --> 00:29:39,756
Speaker 1: they bear no relationship to anything that one ever does

558
00:29:39,876 --> 00:29:41,996
Speaker 1: in the wall ye leaving the speed out of it

559
00:29:42,196 --> 00:29:44,516
Speaker 1: speed yea. For those you listen, the episode was all

560
00:29:44,556 --> 00:29:49,156
Speaker 1: about I didn't understand why the while they had time limits. Yeah. Um.

561
00:29:49,636 --> 00:29:52,196
Speaker 1: And then when I went to the people who would

562
00:29:52,236 --> 00:29:54,276
Speaker 1: make an administer the el set and asked that question,

563
00:29:54,396 --> 00:29:59,116
Speaker 1: they h it's like, no, one didn't have a good answer. Well, no, no,

564
00:29:59,156 --> 00:30:00,836
Speaker 1: it was worse than that. It was like they had

565
00:30:00,876 --> 00:30:02,556
Speaker 1: never occurred to him that that was that would be

566
00:30:02,596 --> 00:30:05,556
Speaker 1: an issue, Like so they Well, I think you got

567
00:30:05,556 --> 00:30:07,196
Speaker 1: the right answer. I mean you buried the answer a

568
00:30:07,236 --> 00:30:09,556
Speaker 1: little bit in the episode. But you pointed out that

569
00:30:10,156 --> 00:30:12,756
Speaker 1: law school exams are typically timed and they measure whether

570
00:30:12,756 --> 00:30:14,156
Speaker 1: they else that is any good by saying if it

571
00:30:14,196 --> 00:30:17,476
Speaker 1: predicts predicts first year grades, so that they are. So

572
00:30:17,476 --> 00:30:19,276
Speaker 1: it's really the law school's fault. It's not the fault

573
00:30:19,316 --> 00:30:21,156
Speaker 1: of the exam. It's really involved with the law schools.

574
00:30:21,156 --> 00:30:23,596
Speaker 1: But it was weird to find someone who was engaged

575
00:30:23,676 --> 00:30:27,436
Speaker 1: in doing something and was radically incurious about the reasons

576
00:30:27,436 --> 00:30:30,556
Speaker 1: for doing that thing. Right, that's that's only weird to you, Malcolm.

577
00:30:31,076 --> 00:30:33,316
Speaker 1: Most of the world is people doing whatever they do

578
00:30:33,356 --> 00:30:35,436
Speaker 1: every day and not keeping it. Who it about? What

579
00:30:35,436 --> 00:30:37,836
Speaker 1: it is that they're Yeah, no, it's it's funny. And

580
00:30:37,876 --> 00:30:40,356
Speaker 1: the other thing, um, no, I won't. I was going

581
00:30:40,436 --> 00:30:43,236
Speaker 1: to say something disparaging, but I won't. You can say

582
00:30:42,556 --> 00:30:47,196
Speaker 1: you can be disparaging. No. The other thing this is

583
00:30:47,236 --> 00:30:52,196
Speaker 1: totally um tangential and parenthetical, is that so you have

584
00:30:52,236 --> 00:30:59,116
Speaker 1: an institution which is making constructing these tests and administering

585
00:30:59,156 --> 00:31:02,676
Speaker 1: them and has been doing so for seventy years, and

586
00:31:02,956 --> 00:31:04,836
Speaker 1: by the way, it makes a lot of money doing it,

587
00:31:05,196 --> 00:31:08,996
Speaker 1: and you know, no one's particularly challenging their right to

588
00:31:08,996 --> 00:31:12,996
Speaker 1: do so. Um, and they don't serve any real productive function.

589
00:31:13,156 --> 00:31:17,236
Speaker 1: So the only reason to persist is if they're having fun. Right,

590
00:31:17,796 --> 00:31:19,436
Speaker 1: So that was I was looking. I was like, okay,

591
00:31:19,476 --> 00:31:21,516
Speaker 1: so I can think of no behind the closed door,

592
00:31:21,516 --> 00:31:23,956
Speaker 1: they would all be shortling to themselves, you know. So

593
00:31:23,996 --> 00:31:26,556
Speaker 1: my thought was the only I can't. There's no reason

594
00:31:26,636 --> 00:31:28,676
Speaker 1: for you guys to be doing what you're doing unless

595
00:31:28,916 --> 00:31:30,556
Speaker 1: you wake up in the morning with joy in your

596
00:31:30,556 --> 00:31:33,076
Speaker 1: heart and think I'm going to come up with some

597
00:31:33,156 --> 00:31:37,236
Speaker 1: really like killer quests and I don't even but this

598
00:31:37,276 --> 00:31:39,996
Speaker 1: example actually underscores what I was sort of the question

599
00:31:40,036 --> 00:31:42,436
Speaker 1: I was raising a couple of minutes ago, namely, so

600
00:31:42,916 --> 00:31:45,276
Speaker 1: the lsdas the law school. I don't even know when

601
00:31:45,276 --> 00:31:48,916
Speaker 1: that all stands for. They have no competition, right, I mean,

602
00:31:48,916 --> 00:31:50,396
Speaker 1: as you say, they're doing it for fun. I mean,

603
00:31:50,436 --> 00:31:52,236
Speaker 1: in fact, in recent years, a couple of law schools,

604
00:31:52,236 --> 00:31:54,716
Speaker 1: including mine, I've started experimenting by saying what you could

605
00:31:54,716 --> 00:31:57,596
Speaker 1: take to gre Yeah, I love you. That's what they

606
00:31:57,636 --> 00:32:01,316
Speaker 1: call an experiment. I mean, it's ridiculous thing. One ridiculous

607
00:32:01,316 --> 00:32:07,396
Speaker 1: steridized test. You can take another steridized one which does

608
00:32:07,436 --> 00:32:09,836
Speaker 1: not have logic games on unless we must be forgot.

609
00:32:10,036 --> 00:32:13,276
Speaker 1: But I mean the justification, if there is one for that,

610
00:32:13,636 --> 00:32:16,196
Speaker 1: it would only be if you have two different tests,

611
00:32:16,516 --> 00:32:19,476
Speaker 1: then maybe that would create some competition, and it would

612
00:32:19,556 --> 00:32:21,876
Speaker 1: lead the people who make up to tests in theory.

613
00:32:21,876 --> 00:32:23,996
Speaker 1: I mean, this is all in theory to think about

614
00:32:24,036 --> 00:32:27,196
Speaker 1: whether you know they could do something differently instead of

615
00:32:27,236 --> 00:32:29,676
Speaker 1: just as you say, just being out there to have fun.

616
00:32:29,756 --> 00:32:31,596
Speaker 1: Not that having fun. It's such a bad motive. No, No,

617
00:32:31,636 --> 00:32:33,476
Speaker 1: I thought that's why I'll do my job. If I

618
00:32:33,516 --> 00:32:35,396
Speaker 1: had thought they were having fun, I would have called

619
00:32:35,396 --> 00:32:37,636
Speaker 1: the whole thing off and did not attack them, right

620
00:32:37,836 --> 00:32:39,916
Speaker 1: but right, but they appeared not to be having fun.

621
00:32:40,196 --> 00:32:42,876
Speaker 1: They committed this end of not having fun, unlike the

622
00:32:42,996 --> 00:32:48,436
Speaker 1: drunken Anthropologists. Yes, yes, yes, who did have fun. Yeah.

623
00:32:48,476 --> 00:32:52,716
Speaker 1: I was fascinated by the chapter about alcohol here. There

624
00:32:52,756 --> 00:32:54,796
Speaker 1: was tons. I mean, there's always stuff in every chapter

625
00:32:54,916 --> 00:32:56,876
Speaker 1: that I don't know, but in that chapter, I feel

626
00:32:56,876 --> 00:32:58,996
Speaker 1: like I didn't know anything, Like everything I thought about

627
00:32:59,036 --> 00:33:03,236
Speaker 1: alcohol consumption was wrong. Can you tell the story of

628
00:33:03,276 --> 00:33:08,956
Speaker 1: the drunken Anthropologists? I can't. I can. So that chapter

629
00:33:10,716 --> 00:33:14,036
Speaker 1: began because I was looking for since I was interested

630
00:33:14,076 --> 00:33:18,196
Speaker 1: in this question of conversations between strangers going awry. Naturally,

631
00:33:18,236 --> 00:33:24,916
Speaker 1: I thought that campus sexual assault would be a reasonable

632
00:33:24,916 --> 00:33:27,636
Speaker 1: place to start. Like that's that seems to be albeit

633
00:33:27,596 --> 00:33:30,796
Speaker 1: a highly controversial, highly country but part, some part of

634
00:33:30,836 --> 00:33:34,396
Speaker 1: that problem is about that that clearly conversations are going

635
00:33:34,436 --> 00:33:37,516
Speaker 1: badly awry. Right. So I began to go and talk

636
00:33:37,516 --> 00:33:39,796
Speaker 1: to people who studied this problem, and there are many

637
00:33:39,836 --> 00:33:42,796
Speaker 1: of them, and all of them, five minutes into the

638
00:33:42,836 --> 00:33:44,956
Speaker 1: conversation would say, well, you know, this is about alcohol.

639
00:33:45,476 --> 00:33:47,556
Speaker 1: They all said this, and I realized, Okay, so maybe

640
00:33:47,556 --> 00:33:50,356
Speaker 1: I should rethink and start talking thinking about more about alcohol.

641
00:33:52,116 --> 00:33:56,956
Speaker 1: And that's interesting on another on a number of levels,

642
00:33:58,476 --> 00:34:03,116
Speaker 1: in part because if you read books about campus assault,

643
00:34:03,356 --> 00:34:05,956
Speaker 1: there are books written about it that don't mention alcohol,

644
00:34:06,076 --> 00:34:08,996
Speaker 1: which is quite incredible. But really, do you see this

645
00:34:09,156 --> 00:34:11,516
Speaker 1: gap between the way an issue is discussed in public

646
00:34:11,756 --> 00:34:14,556
Speaker 1: and luay an issue is discussed by the research community.

647
00:34:14,836 --> 00:34:18,036
Speaker 1: Um anyway, so it led to this long question about Okay,

648
00:34:18,076 --> 00:34:23,276
Speaker 1: so what happens when you're drunk? Um? That would that

649
00:34:23,396 --> 00:34:28,156
Speaker 1: might impair the um the conversation that's being had between

650
00:34:28,356 --> 00:34:30,916
Speaker 1: two strangers at a party or what have you. And

651
00:34:31,436 --> 00:34:33,956
Speaker 1: the common position is that what happens when you drink

652
00:34:34,076 --> 00:34:37,156
Speaker 1: is you become disinhibited, which is what I thought, Yes,

653
00:34:37,316 --> 00:34:40,676
Speaker 1: that you simply then the normal, the kind of surface

654
00:34:40,756 --> 00:34:45,156
Speaker 1: constraints on your um personality melt away, and some kind

655
00:34:45,196 --> 00:34:48,676
Speaker 1: of purer version of yourself emerges in vino veritas right

656
00:34:48,716 --> 00:34:51,596
Speaker 1: for better or words for better fans uh. In fact,

657
00:34:51,676 --> 00:34:56,636
Speaker 1: the contemporary position on alcohol now is on drunkenness is

658
00:34:56,916 --> 00:34:59,876
Speaker 1: very different from that, and that is that drunkenness causes myopia,

659
00:34:59,956 --> 00:35:02,156
Speaker 1: and what that means is that when you're drunk, what

660
00:35:02,316 --> 00:35:05,956
Speaker 1: happens is your higher cognitive functions start to shut down

661
00:35:06,236 --> 00:35:09,676
Speaker 1: and you're capable only of making sense of things in

662
00:35:09,716 --> 00:35:12,356
Speaker 1: the immediate term that are right in front of you.

663
00:35:12,796 --> 00:35:15,236
Speaker 1: And that's a significant That sounds like a subtle difference,

664
00:35:15,276 --> 00:35:22,076
Speaker 1: but it's significant because your personality is your normal personality

665
00:35:22,476 --> 00:35:25,676
Speaker 1: is a function of you, of a careful weighing of

666
00:35:25,756 --> 00:35:29,956
Speaker 1: short term versus long term consequences. Right that, Noah, you

667
00:35:30,036 --> 00:35:32,316
Speaker 1: are who you are because you're not just thinking about

668
00:35:32,316 --> 00:35:35,116
Speaker 1: what's happening now. You're thinking about tomorrow and next week.

669
00:35:35,196 --> 00:35:39,116
Speaker 1: And if you say something rude or stupid or offensive

670
00:35:39,156 --> 00:35:42,236
Speaker 1: to me right now, you know it'll matter tomorrow and right.

671
00:35:42,956 --> 00:35:46,076
Speaker 1: But if you're drunk, that falls away, and what's left

672
00:35:46,436 --> 00:35:49,396
Speaker 1: is not Noah anymore. Because Noah is someone who thinks

673
00:35:49,396 --> 00:35:51,796
Speaker 1: about tomorrow. What's left is the version of Noah that

674
00:35:51,796 --> 00:35:54,956
Speaker 1: doesn't think about tomorrow, which is not Noah. Right, And

675
00:35:55,036 --> 00:35:57,636
Speaker 1: to the extent that we it's a version of Noah

676
00:35:57,676 --> 00:36:00,876
Speaker 1: that doesn't think about tomorrow. Yes, but that's not a

677
00:36:00,956 --> 00:36:03,916
Speaker 1: version you approve of. True, But it's a separate question.

678
00:36:03,996 --> 00:36:05,716
Speaker 1: I think we can discuss it without without a view

679
00:36:05,716 --> 00:36:09,076
Speaker 1: of like, which is the essential Noah? Oh? No no,

680
00:36:09,276 --> 00:36:11,516
Speaker 1: I would say, it's the non essential no yeah, okay,

681
00:36:14,236 --> 00:36:16,996
Speaker 1: isn't your non essential self the portion of yourself that

682
00:36:17,076 --> 00:36:21,076
Speaker 1: you would not willingly choose to be? Well, that would

683
00:36:21,076 --> 00:36:23,116
Speaker 1: be super nice if that were true. But it might

684
00:36:23,156 --> 00:36:28,476
Speaker 1: be the other way around, right, I mean, it could

685
00:36:28,516 --> 00:36:30,556
Speaker 1: be that the portion of myself that I don't want

686
00:36:30,596 --> 00:36:33,116
Speaker 1: to be is actually the essential me, and that to me,

687
00:36:33,316 --> 00:36:36,276
Speaker 1: who goes all the work, goes into producing the public me,

688
00:36:36,636 --> 00:36:38,876
Speaker 1: is the inessential me. Do you want to lie on

689
00:36:38,876 --> 00:36:42,796
Speaker 1: the couch and should? I mean, I'm I'm getting to that,

690
00:36:42,876 --> 00:36:44,876
Speaker 1: Believe me, I'm getting to I'm going to get to

691
00:36:44,956 --> 00:36:49,196
Speaker 1: psychoanalysis and talking to strangers, I promise you, Okay. Regardless

692
00:36:49,196 --> 00:36:53,676
Speaker 1: of whether drunken Noah is the anti Noah or simply

693
00:36:54,676 --> 00:36:59,756
Speaker 1: altered Noah, it's not typical Noah, and it's not ideal Noah. Yes. Right,

694
00:37:00,316 --> 00:37:04,436
Speaker 1: So if this version, if drunken, the drunken version of ourselves,

695
00:37:04,596 --> 00:37:10,036
Speaker 1: is this radically altered, less than altimal verse, then that's

696
00:37:10,116 --> 00:37:14,316
Speaker 1: hugely problematic, right, And it makes it hard to understand,

697
00:37:14,356 --> 00:37:18,276
Speaker 1: for example, how consent can ever be appropriate when people

698
00:37:18,276 --> 00:37:22,436
Speaker 1: are very drunk, because the notion of consent assumes that

699
00:37:22,476 --> 00:37:24,916
Speaker 1: you're it is your self. It is your essential self

700
00:37:24,916 --> 00:37:28,996
Speaker 1: that's consenting, not your altered self. But also it means

701
00:37:28,996 --> 00:37:33,636
Speaker 1: that I think that we have Also it raises the

702
00:37:33,716 --> 00:37:38,196
Speaker 1: question of whether the transformed drunken self is someone who

703
00:37:38,236 --> 00:37:41,476
Speaker 1: is much more likely to engage in criminal behavior, which

704
00:37:41,996 --> 00:37:44,156
Speaker 1: turns out to be true. Right, That's what a lot

705
00:37:44,196 --> 00:37:47,436
Speaker 1: of this sexual assult is about, is that people get very,

706
00:37:47,516 --> 00:37:55,076
Speaker 1: very drunk thinking that it is a harmless, fun state,

707
00:37:55,396 --> 00:37:57,316
Speaker 1: and in fact it's a state that radically increases their

708
00:37:57,356 --> 00:38:01,476
Speaker 1: chances of being criminal sexual predators, right on the one

709
00:38:01,516 --> 00:38:04,596
Speaker 1: side of the equation. So anyway, what does this have

710
00:38:04,636 --> 00:38:06,516
Speaker 1: to do with the drunken anthropologists. Well, a lot of

711
00:38:06,556 --> 00:38:09,076
Speaker 1: this rethinking of drinking begins in the fifties, with all

712
00:38:09,236 --> 00:38:12,196
Speaker 1: the sense of pological work that starts going around the

713
00:38:12,196 --> 00:38:14,756
Speaker 1: world and observing that in other parts of the world

714
00:38:15,156 --> 00:38:18,636
Speaker 1: drunkenness doesn't look like drunkenness in the United States. Right,

715
00:38:18,636 --> 00:38:22,716
Speaker 1: So if if drunken, henkenness is culturally the drunkenness. So

716
00:38:22,756 --> 00:38:24,836
Speaker 1: if drunken that's just how often you get drunk, But

717
00:38:24,876 --> 00:38:26,996
Speaker 1: what you do when what you do when you get

718
00:38:27,076 --> 00:38:31,236
Speaker 1: drunk differs dramatically from culture. So these the the anthropologists.

719
00:38:31,236 --> 00:38:35,836
Speaker 1: So these two lovely this couple um who taught a

720
00:38:35,876 --> 00:38:38,876
Speaker 1: brown for many years. They went to Bolivia in the

721
00:38:38,956 --> 00:38:41,876
Speaker 1: fifties and they observed that this tribe they were living

722
00:38:41,916 --> 00:38:46,156
Speaker 1: with would get would drink essentially grain alcohol, but the

723
00:38:46,196 --> 00:38:50,756
Speaker 1: most potent liquor imaginable. Every Friday night they would get

724
00:38:50,796 --> 00:38:54,876
Speaker 1: together as a group and they would get so wasted that,

725
00:38:55,076 --> 00:38:58,436
Speaker 1: like I mean, they would just drink too. But there

726
00:38:58,516 --> 00:39:06,396
Speaker 1: was no no observable pathology. It didn't lead to fights,

727
00:39:06,436 --> 00:39:09,356
Speaker 1: it didn't lead to you know, absenteeism from work, it

728
00:39:09,396 --> 00:39:11,676
Speaker 1: didn't lead to broken marriages, that didn't lead to and

729
00:39:11,676 --> 00:39:13,276
Speaker 1: they were like so stunned by this, like how could

730
00:39:13,276 --> 00:39:15,436
Speaker 1: this be? And the answer is it goes to this

731
00:39:15,476 --> 00:39:18,756
Speaker 1: question of biopia, that when you are drunk, you were

732
00:39:18,916 --> 00:39:21,036
Speaker 1: at the mercy of your immediate environment. And they had

733
00:39:21,076 --> 00:39:24,356
Speaker 1: constructed an immediate environment that was entirely benign, more than benign,

734
00:39:24,556 --> 00:39:28,036
Speaker 1: that was socially positive. So when they got so, yeah,

735
00:39:28,076 --> 00:39:30,556
Speaker 1: they were surrounded by like happy things. They sang songs

736
00:39:30,556 --> 00:39:32,716
Speaker 1: and they held hands and it was all love. Was

737
00:39:32,756 --> 00:39:34,516
Speaker 1: like a rave, but with grain alcohol. It was like

738
00:39:34,556 --> 00:39:39,116
Speaker 1: a rave with green yes exactly, if that's what frat

739
00:39:39,156 --> 00:39:42,796
Speaker 1: parties were we would not have sexual assaults, right, But

740
00:39:42,876 --> 00:39:46,196
Speaker 1: frat parties are the opposite. They are places where the

741
00:39:46,236 --> 00:39:49,116
Speaker 1: thing that is immediately in front of this of these

742
00:39:49,676 --> 00:39:53,756
Speaker 1: you know, wasted eighteen year olds is not something that

743
00:39:53,796 --> 00:39:55,796
Speaker 1: brings out their best self. It is rather something that

744
00:39:55,836 --> 00:39:58,476
Speaker 1: brings out, in many cases, their worst self. The fact

745
00:39:58,556 --> 00:40:01,236
Speaker 1: that we allow this to happen on campuses and we

746
00:40:01,276 --> 00:40:05,276
Speaker 1: are seemingly oblivious to its consequences enrages me because the

747
00:40:05,276 --> 00:40:10,036
Speaker 1: answer is the answer to engage in some rat cultural

748
00:40:10,076 --> 00:40:14,636
Speaker 1: experiment to change the cultural norms. Because I mean, that's

749
00:40:14,636 --> 00:40:16,796
Speaker 1: the thing about anthropologists, right, they go all over the world.

750
00:40:16,996 --> 00:40:19,516
Speaker 1: They see incredible things, and they report back that what

751
00:40:19,596 --> 00:40:23,036
Speaker 1: we think is intuitive isn't intuitive. But their explanation tends

752
00:40:23,036 --> 00:40:25,116
Speaker 1: to be a teeny bit different from the explanations that

753
00:40:25,516 --> 00:40:27,676
Speaker 1: often come up in the other work of other social scientists.

754
00:40:27,716 --> 00:40:30,876
Speaker 1: They tend to say, it's a different culture. So those

755
00:40:30,916 --> 00:40:32,636
Speaker 1: folks had put a lot of time and effort into

756
00:40:32,636 --> 00:40:35,076
Speaker 1: figuring out a culture. Maybe it was luck, maybe it

757
00:40:35,156 --> 00:40:37,876
Speaker 1: wasn't where getting drunk actually gave them some kind of

758
00:40:37,876 --> 00:40:41,516
Speaker 1: communal solidarity, and so maybe we should be trying to

759
00:40:41,556 --> 00:40:44,436
Speaker 1: produce a culture like that. Yeah, I agree, I think

760
00:40:44,436 --> 00:40:48,596
Speaker 1: we should be. I think the idea of so some

761
00:40:48,636 --> 00:40:51,196
Speaker 1: people have been trying to produce a culture around drinking.

762
00:40:51,236 --> 00:40:53,196
Speaker 1: It's just that the culture that has been produced around

763
00:40:53,276 --> 00:40:56,756
Speaker 1: drinking on campuses in the last twenty five years is

764
00:40:56,796 --> 00:41:02,116
Speaker 1: the most monstrously maladaptive culture imaginable. So we know you

765
00:41:02,156 --> 00:41:06,036
Speaker 1: can produce powerful cultures around it, but we have surrendered

766
00:41:06,076 --> 00:41:07,716
Speaker 1: that task to people who do not have the best

767
00:41:07,716 --> 00:41:12,036
Speaker 1: interests of nineteen year role college students at heart. And

768
00:41:12,076 --> 00:41:16,396
Speaker 1: it's time we went back and took back that particular culture.

769
00:41:16,676 --> 00:41:19,956
Speaker 1: It is quite possible to have fun at a party

770
00:41:19,996 --> 00:41:24,036
Speaker 1: without getting blackout drunk, right at the very least, it

771
00:41:24,156 --> 00:41:27,996
Speaker 1: makes sense. You know, in telling in retelling the story

772
00:41:28,076 --> 00:41:30,756
Speaker 1: of the Stanford rape case, there are many things that

773
00:41:31,276 --> 00:41:34,196
Speaker 1: strike you. One is that here is a party at

774
00:41:34,236 --> 00:41:36,596
Speaker 1: Stanford where there is a lot of very young people

775
00:41:36,596 --> 00:41:38,436
Speaker 1: are getting very very drunk, and there appeared to be

776
00:41:38,476 --> 00:41:44,116
Speaker 1: no adults anywhere, no sober people present. How is that good? Idea? Like,

777
00:41:44,236 --> 00:41:46,356
Speaker 1: here's a college that has not like there are a

778
00:41:46,436 --> 00:41:49,356
Speaker 1: lack of resources at Stanford for this kind of thing.

779
00:41:50,396 --> 00:41:53,476
Speaker 1: When I was at you know, getting drunk in college

780
00:41:53,516 --> 00:41:55,516
Speaker 1: at the University of Toronto in the nineteen eighties. They

781
00:41:55,516 --> 00:41:58,876
Speaker 1: were always sober adults at our parties. It just it

782
00:41:58,916 --> 00:42:01,716
Speaker 1: was the way it was constructed, and so whenever something

783
00:42:01,716 --> 00:42:03,636
Speaker 1: got out of hand, the sober adult came in and

784
00:42:03,756 --> 00:42:06,636
Speaker 1: made sure it didn't go too far. I suspect that's

785
00:42:06,636 --> 00:42:11,516
Speaker 1: why the number of these incredibly problematic incidents in my

786
00:42:11,556 --> 00:42:14,636
Speaker 1: college years was small. I never knew of a single

787
00:42:14,916 --> 00:42:18,356
Speaker 1: person who went to the hospital suffering from alcohol poisoning.

788
00:42:18,396 --> 00:42:20,836
Speaker 1: I never knew of a single person although I got drunk.

789
00:42:20,916 --> 00:42:23,796
Speaker 1: Although I have read this is maybe about the early nineties,

790
00:42:23,876 --> 00:42:26,116
Speaker 1: I can't be so different from the late eighties studies

791
00:42:26,156 --> 00:42:29,836
Speaker 1: suggesting that the rate of sexual assault on campuses was

792
00:42:29,876 --> 00:42:33,996
Speaker 1: actually not so different then than it is now, that

793
00:42:34,116 --> 00:42:40,276
Speaker 1: is to say, outrageously, shockingly terribly high. Yeah. Yeah, All

794
00:42:40,316 --> 00:42:43,556
Speaker 1: I know is that the Yeah, the gathering of statistics

795
00:42:43,556 --> 00:42:46,276
Speaker 1: in this area is an incredibly difficult Yes, so safely

796
00:42:46,276 --> 00:42:49,356
Speaker 1: because so much goes unreported. Yeah. All I can say

797
00:42:49,356 --> 00:42:51,596
Speaker 1: for certain is that our best efforts at the moment

798
00:42:52,796 --> 00:42:56,836
Speaker 1: suggests the sexual self problem is way, way, way worse

799
00:42:56,876 --> 00:43:00,556
Speaker 1: than people imagine. I wanted to I promised one question

800
00:43:00,596 --> 00:43:06,436
Speaker 1: about broadly speaking psychoanalysis. So here's the question. You talk

801
00:43:06,516 --> 00:43:08,796
Speaker 1: a lot in the book about default to truth as

802
00:43:08,836 --> 00:43:11,196
Speaker 1: some thing that we do and maybe something that we're

803
00:43:11,196 --> 00:43:15,556
Speaker 1: hard wired to do. Yeah, so you know your spies

804
00:43:15,796 --> 00:43:18,196
Speaker 1: are being spies and they say, oh, I'm not a spy,

805
00:43:18,236 --> 00:43:19,556
Speaker 1: and then people say, oh, I guess you're not a

806
00:43:19,556 --> 00:43:22,156
Speaker 1: spy because we're you know, it's pro social to believe

807
00:43:22,156 --> 00:43:25,316
Speaker 1: people unless you have really strong evidence not too How

808
00:43:25,356 --> 00:43:28,356
Speaker 1: do you distinguish that from the situation where we kind

809
00:43:28,396 --> 00:43:32,076
Speaker 1: of know that you're lying, but we really don't want

810
00:43:32,116 --> 00:43:35,796
Speaker 1: to think that, where we're actually eager on some level,

811
00:43:36,236 --> 00:43:37,796
Speaker 1: and you know, it could be on different levels, but

812
00:43:37,796 --> 00:43:40,196
Speaker 1: it could actually be on a you know, a subconscious level.

813
00:43:40,556 --> 00:43:42,276
Speaker 1: We're eager to believe you because it would be just

814
00:43:42,316 --> 00:43:45,436
Speaker 1: too terrible to believe the truth that my co worker

815
00:43:45,476 --> 00:43:47,996
Speaker 1: in the next cubicle, who's an award winning you know,

816
00:43:48,036 --> 00:43:51,436
Speaker 1: Cuba analyst, is actually you know, piling around personally with

817
00:43:51,476 --> 00:43:54,476
Speaker 1: Fidel Castro, you know, on odd weekends. Yeah, it's it's

818
00:43:54,556 --> 00:43:56,236
Speaker 1: devastating to think that. I mean, in all of your

819
00:43:56,276 --> 00:43:58,076
Speaker 1: cases about the spies, you always have the person saying,

820
00:43:58,076 --> 00:44:01,116
Speaker 1: oh my god, we were just devastated to discover this. Yeah, so,

821
00:44:01,396 --> 00:44:06,036
Speaker 1: how do you distinguish a kind of idea that we're

822
00:44:06,196 --> 00:44:08,236
Speaker 1: just built to believe people, so we believe people from

823
00:44:08,276 --> 00:44:10,436
Speaker 1: the idea that no, it's not that, it's that we

824
00:44:10,516 --> 00:44:12,516
Speaker 1: kind of know they're lying on some level, but we

825
00:44:13,196 --> 00:44:15,236
Speaker 1: but we know and we don't know at the same

826
00:44:15,236 --> 00:44:19,156
Speaker 1: time because we just really, really really don't want to

827
00:44:19,156 --> 00:44:21,956
Speaker 1: be disillusioned. Well, I there's many way stiensers that I

828
00:44:21,996 --> 00:44:24,556
Speaker 1: would say that. So a lot of my ideas in

829
00:44:24,596 --> 00:44:27,796
Speaker 1: this book about why we do such a bad job

830
00:44:27,836 --> 00:44:31,116
Speaker 1: of knowing when others are lying come from the work

831
00:44:31,116 --> 00:44:34,196
Speaker 1: of this psychologist, Tim Levine and levine zanswer would be

832
00:44:35,556 --> 00:44:38,796
Speaker 1: that real liars. So there's a in a psychological literature,

833
00:44:38,796 --> 00:44:40,756
Speaker 1: there is a distinction between there's a big argument about

834
00:44:40,756 --> 00:44:43,716
Speaker 1: what is a lie, and they don't count as lies.

835
00:44:44,636 --> 00:44:48,316
Speaker 1: Untruths that are told with the intent of preserving social

836
00:44:48,356 --> 00:44:52,516
Speaker 1: relationships are not considered lies what we would call white lies,

837
00:44:52,756 --> 00:44:56,196
Speaker 1: but they're the category why life is quite large. Yes, um, so,

838
00:44:56,276 --> 00:44:59,436
Speaker 1: a true lie is a lie that's told deliberately and

839
00:44:59,476 --> 00:45:04,796
Speaker 1: malicious maliciously with the intent of severing or rupturing social relationships.

840
00:45:04,836 --> 00:45:08,956
Speaker 1: The number of the percentage of the population who tal

841
00:45:09,196 --> 00:45:14,356
Speaker 1: large numbers of true lies is really really small. So

842
00:45:14,396 --> 00:45:16,276
Speaker 1: the con style of that with the statistics on the

843
00:45:16,356 --> 00:45:19,396
Speaker 1: number of people who cheat on their spouses, I mean

844
00:45:19,396 --> 00:45:21,276
Speaker 1: that by depending on the numbers you look at, that's

845
00:45:21,316 --> 00:45:24,116
Speaker 1: you know, between a third and sixty percent of you

846
00:45:24,156 --> 00:45:26,556
Speaker 1: know of Americans, depending on which studies you believe. That's

847
00:45:26,596 --> 00:45:28,356
Speaker 1: a lot of people and they're all telling unless you

848
00:45:28,356 --> 00:45:33,516
Speaker 1: think that's a white lie. Now, so is cheating on

849
00:45:33,556 --> 00:45:38,436
Speaker 1: your I mean I'm talking about a cheating on this

850
00:45:38,676 --> 00:45:43,476
Speaker 1: on your spouse. Is an active an active deception, yeah,

851
00:45:43,516 --> 00:45:46,316
Speaker 1: but it may not involve an actual lie. In other words,

852
00:45:46,876 --> 00:45:49,916
Speaker 1: I'm talking about the moment when the two people confront

853
00:45:49,956 --> 00:45:53,316
Speaker 1: each other and one of the fun party says that

854
00:45:53,356 --> 00:45:55,116
Speaker 1: you're having an affair and the other party says, I'm

855
00:45:55,156 --> 00:45:58,356
Speaker 1: not okay. So that's no. I don't know what percentage

856
00:45:58,396 --> 00:46:00,916
Speaker 1: includes that moment. Yeah, I'm more interested in that act

857
00:46:00,956 --> 00:46:03,636
Speaker 1: where they confront each other. I'm not you know, you're

858
00:46:03,636 --> 00:46:07,916
Speaker 1: talking about the commission of a social acts or maybe

859
00:46:08,156 --> 00:46:11,236
Speaker 1: highly social acts, but social acts outside of overly social,

860
00:46:11,276 --> 00:46:16,996
Speaker 1: overly social acts, but um but no deeply malicious acts

861
00:46:17,196 --> 00:46:20,756
Speaker 1: meant to destroy. So made off made off level kinds

862
00:46:20,796 --> 00:46:24,276
Speaker 1: of lies are really really rare. Um. So to add

863
00:46:24,316 --> 00:46:25,716
Speaker 1: to you you, I agree with you. How do we know

864
00:46:25,796 --> 00:46:29,276
Speaker 1: that a lot of so there is a there is

865
00:46:29,276 --> 00:46:32,076
Speaker 1: a healthy literature in psychology and trying to figure this

866
00:46:32,156 --> 00:46:35,116
Speaker 1: question out. Yeah. Um, you know it's hard to tell.

867
00:46:35,556 --> 00:46:38,956
Speaker 1: But you know, we do know that because you know

868
00:46:38,956 --> 00:46:44,516
Speaker 1: what percentage of investment advisors are running massive Ponzi schemes.

869
00:46:44,636 --> 00:46:47,236
Speaker 1: It's actually quite small, right, I mean there's a lot

870
00:46:47,276 --> 00:46:52,156
Speaker 1: of Look, where's your money in like in a sock?

871
00:46:52,716 --> 00:46:55,956
Speaker 1: I you this, No, No, it's in an index fund. Yea.

872
00:46:56,076 --> 00:46:59,356
Speaker 1: The Wall Street Journal is not lying. I mean the index.

873
00:46:59,396 --> 00:47:01,356
Speaker 1: The index is the index. So you know how you're

874
00:47:01,396 --> 00:47:03,636
Speaker 1: you know, well, the person running the index fund, you're

875
00:47:03,636 --> 00:47:05,956
Speaker 1: saying it's not lying. You know, there's don't you don't

876
00:47:05,956 --> 00:47:07,836
Speaker 1: even need a person. It's just an index, I know.

877
00:47:07,916 --> 00:47:10,316
Speaker 1: But so therefore it's not you, whereas a human being

878
00:47:10,316 --> 00:47:12,116
Speaker 1: with a with a you know, with an investment strategy

879
00:47:12,156 --> 00:47:14,356
Speaker 1: could could be the nature of a Ponzi scheme? Is

880
00:47:14,396 --> 00:47:18,276
Speaker 1: that advision it? Actually? Yeah? So we do know that

881
00:47:18,756 --> 00:47:21,596
Speaker 1: there aren't ten madeups out there? Yeah, there are, you know,

882
00:47:21,596 --> 00:47:24,156
Speaker 1: there is a small number. And similarly, when we look

883
00:47:24,156 --> 00:47:27,636
Speaker 1: in you know, what is the incident incidents of Since

884
00:47:27,676 --> 00:47:29,996
Speaker 1: I talk about pedophilia in this book, how many you know,

885
00:47:29,996 --> 00:47:32,476
Speaker 1: what is the real incidence of pedophilia in the population,

886
00:47:32,516 --> 00:47:37,476
Speaker 1: So someone who is systematically deceiving those around him in

887
00:47:37,476 --> 00:47:39,756
Speaker 1: in the in the in the name of pursuing a

888
00:47:39,836 --> 00:47:43,116
Speaker 1: devan sexual agenda. It's actually it's quite small. It's like

889
00:47:44,196 --> 00:47:48,876
Speaker 1: two three percent. That who that's small? Well, two three percent.

890
00:47:48,916 --> 00:47:51,116
Speaker 1: Now we're not saying that these are people who actively

891
00:47:51,196 --> 00:47:55,036
Speaker 1: pursue their pedophilia, but who have those kinds of inclinations,

892
00:47:55,076 --> 00:48:00,356
Speaker 1: But that that's quite small. Sure, yeah, okay, two or

893
00:48:00,396 --> 00:48:03,516
Speaker 1: three people out of one hundred. It's nothing like sounds

894
00:48:03,516 --> 00:48:05,436
Speaker 1: like a lot of people to me. I don't know.

895
00:48:05,476 --> 00:48:07,556
Speaker 1: But it's because I have kids. I don't know. But

896
00:48:07,596 --> 00:48:10,916
Speaker 1: if you but if you have as a baseline position

897
00:48:10,996 --> 00:48:14,316
Speaker 1: that most people you deal with are not pedophiles, that's

898
00:48:14,356 --> 00:48:16,876
Speaker 1: not an irrational position. It's not irrational, not by any string.

899
00:48:16,956 --> 00:48:19,516
Speaker 1: So you can send your kids to boy scout the world,

900
00:48:19,836 --> 00:48:22,756
Speaker 1: and you shouldn't lie awake at night worrying about whether

901
00:48:22,756 --> 00:48:27,076
Speaker 1: the boy scouts. But verify, yes, that's right anyway, So

902
00:48:27,276 --> 00:48:30,516
Speaker 1: I don't think that your position is wrong. But I

903
00:48:30,556 --> 00:48:34,876
Speaker 1: would say that it's it is probably rational to want

904
00:48:34,916 --> 00:48:37,436
Speaker 1: to believe that the person you're dealing with is telling

905
00:48:37,476 --> 00:48:39,476
Speaker 1: the truth, because most people actually are telling the truth.

906
00:48:39,476 --> 00:48:42,036
Speaker 1: That's Slivian's argument. I think that's there's something and it's

907
00:48:42,036 --> 00:48:47,036
Speaker 1: a it's a rationalist argument, presumably built into some evolutionary theory. Right,

908
00:48:47,036 --> 00:48:49,916
Speaker 1: it's rational, and so we've evolved this tendency. You know,

909
00:48:49,956 --> 00:48:51,636
Speaker 1: what are the reasons why so many? And I guess

910
00:48:51,676 --> 00:48:53,796
Speaker 1: my worry is, I'm not sure that covers the cases

911
00:48:54,156 --> 00:48:56,756
Speaker 1: money of which you write about, where there's like stuff

912
00:48:56,876 --> 00:48:59,116
Speaker 1: staring the person in the face, you know, the person

913
00:48:59,196 --> 00:49:01,396
Speaker 1: who suspects the spy and says, gee, I suspect this

914
00:49:01,476 --> 00:49:03,636
Speaker 1: spy and goes and ask the questions and the spy

915
00:49:03,716 --> 00:49:06,796
Speaker 1: gives a lame answer, and the person's like, okay, I

916
00:49:06,836 --> 00:49:09,436
Speaker 1: believe you. And your your answer is you know, this

917
00:49:09,556 --> 00:49:12,116
Speaker 1: kind of evolutionary default the truth. But my instinct, at

918
00:49:12,156 --> 00:49:14,516
Speaker 1: least on reading those anecdotes was that's not enough to

919
00:49:14,556 --> 00:49:17,596
Speaker 1: explain that because the person's doubts were already raised. It's

920
00:49:17,636 --> 00:49:19,596
Speaker 1: really that they just didn't want to face it. They

921
00:49:19,596 --> 00:49:22,276
Speaker 1: didn't want to take on board the painful reality you

922
00:49:22,316 --> 00:49:25,516
Speaker 1: know spies thinking about spies as someone who has consumed

923
00:49:25,596 --> 00:49:28,516
Speaker 1: huge numbers of real and imaginary spy stories. But if

924
00:49:28,516 --> 00:49:31,236
Speaker 1: you just look at the real ones, spies never get caught.

925
00:49:31,396 --> 00:49:35,196
Speaker 1: Like show me a case where the first day that

926
00:49:35,636 --> 00:49:39,156
Speaker 1: Joe Hill decided to turn coat and spy for the

927
00:49:39,156 --> 00:49:42,236
Speaker 1: Soviet Union, even though he was a high ranking CIA officer,

928
00:49:42,436 --> 00:49:46,516
Speaker 1: he was caught by counterintelligence. Never ever happens. If you do,

929
00:49:46,556 --> 00:49:47,956
Speaker 1: like I woudn't want to write a book about it

930
00:49:47,996 --> 00:49:50,796
Speaker 1: because it short no if you talk to these counterintelligence

931
00:49:50,796 --> 00:49:53,156
Speaker 1: officers about their record and uncovering spies. First of all,

932
00:49:53,156 --> 00:49:55,796
Speaker 1: most counterintelligence officers never catch any spies, and to the

933
00:49:55,796 --> 00:49:58,516
Speaker 1: extent they do, they catch them like after ten years.

934
00:49:58,676 --> 00:50:02,436
Speaker 1: Like think about how long Aldrich aims possibly the worst

935
00:50:02,476 --> 00:50:06,316
Speaker 1: by this country ever had. The man is a buffoon,

936
00:50:06,756 --> 00:50:11,756
Speaker 1: he's a drunken His performance reviews are like terrible. He

937
00:50:11,796 --> 00:50:14,516
Speaker 1: starts getting huge amounts of money from the Soviets for

938
00:50:14,556 --> 00:50:16,396
Speaker 1: his spying or what does he do? He spends it

939
00:50:16,436 --> 00:50:19,356
Speaker 1: wildly and shows up at Langley and like a jaguar

940
00:50:19,436 --> 00:50:22,036
Speaker 1: with his teeth capped and wearing a fancy you know

941
00:50:22,196 --> 00:50:27,716
Speaker 1: BRIONI suit and like nobody nobody looks askance so like,

942
00:50:28,116 --> 00:50:33,116
Speaker 1: I'm sorry at a certain boot, President, I'm sorry. At

943
00:50:33,116 --> 00:50:34,796
Speaker 1: a certain point, you have to believe that this is

944
00:50:34,836 --> 00:50:38,676
Speaker 1: something that is I just read this, this book about

945
00:50:38,756 --> 00:50:42,676
Speaker 1: Klaus Fuchs. You know, the so Klaus Fuchs, he's the

946
00:50:42,716 --> 00:50:45,916
Speaker 1: one who betrays the atomic bomb to the Soviet Union.

947
00:50:46,436 --> 00:50:49,636
Speaker 1: I hadn't realized that a Klaus Fuchs. I thought he

948
00:50:49,676 --> 00:50:52,156
Speaker 1: was a kind of minor figure in Los Alamos. He's not.

949
00:50:52,196 --> 00:50:54,516
Speaker 1: He's like a he's one of the greatest nuclear physics

950
00:50:54,556 --> 00:50:58,476
Speaker 1: of his generation. And also his ties to the Communists

951
00:50:58,516 --> 00:51:01,036
Speaker 1: go way back. He's a he's a Communist from the

952
00:51:01,076 --> 00:51:03,156
Speaker 1: get go, which actually a good number of the nuclear

953
00:51:03,196 --> 00:51:06,836
Speaker 1: scientists were deeply sympathetics. So it's like and you know,

954
00:51:06,876 --> 00:51:08,916
Speaker 1: all kinds of people were like raising her hand and say,

955
00:51:08,956 --> 00:51:12,996
Speaker 1: I don't know about Klaus, like Klaus goes. And then

956
00:51:13,116 --> 00:51:15,716
Speaker 1: Klaus was at Los Alamos. They had you on lockdown

957
00:51:15,916 --> 00:51:17,796
Speaker 1: in the trend and you know, where to get out

958
00:51:17,796 --> 00:51:20,676
Speaker 1: of Los Alimos to meet with his Soviet handler. He

959
00:51:20,676 --> 00:51:24,516
Speaker 1: had to construct these elaborate reasons. Shore enough, like Klaus

960
00:51:24,556 --> 00:51:26,236
Speaker 1: is always getting in a car, like driving off to

961
00:51:26,316 --> 00:51:28,436
Speaker 1: the desert, and they're like, oh, where's Claus. I don't

962
00:51:28,436 --> 00:51:30,956
Speaker 1: know he's he's going to, like, you know, where would

963
00:51:30,956 --> 00:51:33,956
Speaker 1: you you're at Lost Alimos? Were you going for? I

964
00:51:33,956 --> 00:51:36,436
Speaker 1: think the supports my theory. I think not you're a theory.

965
00:51:36,436 --> 00:51:38,836
Speaker 1: I think the supports that people say wanted to they

966
00:51:38,836 --> 00:51:41,156
Speaker 1: really didn't want to believe this about classrooms. Of course

967
00:51:41,196 --> 00:51:43,276
Speaker 1: they didn't want to believe it, but they were. But

968
00:51:43,356 --> 00:51:45,396
Speaker 1: they didn't want to believe it because in part because

969
00:51:45,716 --> 00:51:49,516
Speaker 1: most people at Los Alimos were not spies, right Klaus,

970
00:51:49,516 --> 00:51:53,356
Speaker 1: It's Klaus, and like basically Klaus. I mean there's like

971
00:51:53,356 --> 00:51:55,836
Speaker 1: one other guy who's a spy, but maybe someone we

972
00:51:55,876 --> 00:51:59,796
Speaker 1: don't know about, but most of them not spies, right. Um.

973
00:52:00,756 --> 00:52:02,836
Speaker 1: So I want to make sure we ask some of

974
00:52:02,836 --> 00:52:05,516
Speaker 1: the audience questions. And this is the first question from

975
00:52:05,556 --> 00:52:08,916
Speaker 1: Tyler from Westfield in New Jersey, and this question I'll

976
00:52:09,196 --> 00:52:11,116
Speaker 1: you why I'm interesting this question. The question says, you're

977
00:52:11,156 --> 00:52:13,796
Speaker 1: known to be an avid runner. How does running factor

978
00:52:13,836 --> 00:52:16,036
Speaker 1: into your process as a writer and as a thinker?

979
00:52:16,036 --> 00:52:18,316
Speaker 1: And the reason I was especially attracted this question is

980
00:52:18,356 --> 00:52:20,116
Speaker 1: that I didn't exactly meet you, but the first time

981
00:52:20,116 --> 00:52:23,396
Speaker 1: I ever saw you was in the Equinox in the

982
00:52:23,396 --> 00:52:26,716
Speaker 1: West Village when I lived in New York, and there

983
00:52:26,716 --> 00:52:30,156
Speaker 1: were several rows of treadmills, and in the front row

984
00:52:30,196 --> 00:52:34,356
Speaker 1: of treadmills in the center was always Malcolm running at

985
00:52:34,396 --> 00:52:37,676
Speaker 1: like an unimaginable speed, and for a long time he

986
00:52:37,716 --> 00:52:40,236
Speaker 1: was by far the fastest person in that gym. And

987
00:52:40,276 --> 00:52:43,716
Speaker 1: then a early two thousand supermodel. I was trying to

988
00:52:43,716 --> 00:52:45,636
Speaker 1: figure out which one it was, one of the blond ones?

989
00:52:46,036 --> 00:52:49,676
Speaker 1: Was it? Which one was? She was right next to you,

990
00:52:49,756 --> 00:52:52,356
Speaker 1: and she would run right next to you really at

991
00:52:53,996 --> 00:52:56,716
Speaker 1: that now, you'd tell me, at super high speed. This

992
00:52:56,756 --> 00:52:58,476
Speaker 1: happened on more than one occasion. This is like a

993
00:52:58,516 --> 00:53:00,516
Speaker 1: story about you and your father, Like you didn't even notice,

994
00:53:01,716 --> 00:53:04,116
Speaker 1: and she was like pretty much as fast as as

995
00:53:04,156 --> 00:53:08,916
Speaker 1: you are, and comparably skinny. And so I thought to myself,

996
00:53:09,116 --> 00:53:10,516
Speaker 1: first I thought I didn't know who you were. I

997
00:53:10,556 --> 00:53:12,436
Speaker 1: was just like, wow, that guy is incredibly fast. And

998
00:53:12,516 --> 00:53:14,276
Speaker 1: I was like, that guy's incredibly fast and doesn't notice

999
00:53:14,316 --> 00:53:17,156
Speaker 1: the girl next to him, And then later I found

1000
00:53:17,196 --> 00:53:19,796
Speaker 1: out that it was you. So here's the question, how

1001
00:53:19,796 --> 00:53:22,636
Speaker 1: does that running factor into your process as a writer

1002
00:53:22,676 --> 00:53:25,476
Speaker 1: and as a thinker, other than making you oblivious to supermodels?

1003
00:53:27,516 --> 00:53:33,556
Speaker 1: I don't know. I suppose, well, you know the you

1004
00:53:33,596 --> 00:53:39,836
Speaker 1: know this how iterative writing is, that you never finding

1005
00:53:39,836 --> 00:53:43,756
Speaker 1: a way to express what you really mean takes forever

1006
00:53:44,596 --> 00:53:47,356
Speaker 1: and that early and an awful lot of kind of

1007
00:53:47,956 --> 00:53:50,116
Speaker 1: what you discover when you write something down is how

1008
00:53:50,156 --> 00:53:52,396
Speaker 1: difficult it is to put your thoughts into words, or

1009
00:53:53,036 --> 00:53:55,396
Speaker 1: how difficult it is to know what you think. And

1010
00:53:55,476 --> 00:53:58,436
Speaker 1: so I always think that you running is really, among

1011
00:53:58,516 --> 00:54:01,916
Speaker 1: other things, a way in which I can simply take

1012
00:54:01,956 --> 00:54:05,636
Speaker 1: time out to ruminate. All writers, I think, have to

1013
00:54:05,676 --> 00:54:09,756
Speaker 1: have some space in your life for rumination. Darthy from

1014
00:54:09,796 --> 00:54:12,636
Speaker 1: Boston And this is I don't think it means to

1015
00:54:12,676 --> 00:54:14,396
Speaker 1: be a mean question, but it's a teeny bit mean.

1016
00:54:15,436 --> 00:54:16,676
Speaker 1: When I was on my way over here, I asked

1017
00:54:16,716 --> 00:54:18,356
Speaker 1: my daughter what happens if I have to ask Malcolm

1018
00:54:18,356 --> 00:54:20,196
Speaker 1: a mean question? She said, you have to do it

1019
00:54:20,236 --> 00:54:25,236
Speaker 1: as a compliment sandwich, and I didn't. I didn't know

1020
00:54:25,276 --> 00:54:27,396
Speaker 1: what that was, but she explained to me. So I

1021
00:54:27,436 --> 00:54:33,476
Speaker 1: wanted to say, Malcolm, that's this is an amazing book. Yeah,

1022
00:54:33,796 --> 00:54:37,036
Speaker 1: after the aha moment that birth's a new theory? How

1023
00:54:37,036 --> 00:54:41,676
Speaker 1: do you avoid confirmation bias while evidence gathering? And also great,

1024
00:54:41,756 --> 00:54:49,396
Speaker 1: great shirt? Did I do it right. Um, well, one

1025
00:54:49,436 --> 00:54:51,556
Speaker 1: answer is to say that all journalism is an expression

1026
00:54:51,596 --> 00:54:55,316
Speaker 1: of confirmation bias, but then so it confirmed the bio.

1027
00:54:55,516 --> 00:55:00,716
Speaker 1: Charthy holds, Yeah, I mean you're I think I guess.

1028
00:55:00,716 --> 00:55:05,436
Speaker 1: The defense I would say is that, unlike other forms

1029
00:55:05,476 --> 00:55:09,396
Speaker 1: of writing, the kind of journalism that I'm up part

1030
00:55:09,436 --> 00:55:14,436
Speaker 1: of is meant to provoke, not convince. That is to say,

1031
00:55:14,516 --> 00:55:17,036
Speaker 1: I'm not and what I what I'd like to do

1032
00:55:17,116 --> 00:55:20,996
Speaker 1: is to present an argument, maybe an argument that readers

1033
00:55:20,996 --> 00:55:24,116
Speaker 1: haven't seen before. Not necessarily because I think I can

1034
00:55:24,356 --> 00:55:27,276
Speaker 1: persuade you to adopt it, or necessarily because I believe

1035
00:55:27,276 --> 00:55:29,556
Speaker 1: the argument is one hundred percent correct, but because I

1036
00:55:29,556 --> 00:55:33,956
Speaker 1: think it's incredibly useful to consider the problem from that angle.

1037
00:55:34,396 --> 00:55:38,676
Speaker 1: So an example would be, you know, I don't talk

1038
00:55:38,676 --> 00:55:40,276
Speaker 1: a lot, like we went over this, I don't talk

1039
00:55:40,276 --> 00:55:41,996
Speaker 1: a lot about race in the case of Sandra Bland.

1040
00:55:42,236 --> 00:55:44,836
Speaker 1: Why Because it's really useful to think through the problem

1041
00:55:44,876 --> 00:55:48,036
Speaker 1: of what to do about police shootings and put race

1042
00:55:48,076 --> 00:55:50,956
Speaker 1: to the side for a moment. Right, that's a good

1043
00:55:51,156 --> 00:55:54,876
Speaker 1: do I think that race doesn't belong, No race totally belongs,

1044
00:55:54,916 --> 00:55:58,676
Speaker 1: but it's useful to take a couple hours and set

1045
00:55:58,676 --> 00:56:00,916
Speaker 1: it aside and say, what if I thought about this

1046
00:56:01,396 --> 00:56:04,916
Speaker 1: outside of that of that particular prism, And that's what

1047
00:56:05,796 --> 00:56:10,836
Speaker 1: that's what I think useful nonfiction does. And so part

1048
00:56:10,916 --> 00:56:13,516
Speaker 1: of the part of the production of that kind of

1049
00:56:13,916 --> 00:56:17,196
Speaker 1: argument is confirmation bias, happily confirmation bison. Yeah, let's gather

1050
00:56:17,236 --> 00:56:18,836
Speaker 1: all the events we can for a particular point of

1051
00:56:18,876 --> 00:56:21,236
Speaker 1: view and want it buy you. Let's see what happens. Yeah,

1052
00:56:21,236 --> 00:56:23,076
Speaker 1: and if you default to truth and believe it, that's

1053
00:56:23,116 --> 00:56:25,356
Speaker 1: your own fault you have. You got to read a skeptically, right,

1054
00:56:25,396 --> 00:56:29,596
Speaker 1: I mean you've got to read skeptically. Yeah. Nicole from Massachusetts,

1055
00:56:29,676 --> 00:56:31,876
Speaker 1: This is a very Massachusetts question, and it's kind of

1056
00:56:31,916 --> 00:56:36,476
Speaker 1: a deep one. Is Trump derangement syndrome a similar phenomenon

1057
00:56:36,676 --> 00:56:42,076
Speaker 1: to the Belgian coke crisis? This question requires a great

1058
00:56:42,076 --> 00:56:46,356
Speaker 1: deal of unpacking the Belgian. Nicole is from Massachusetts. Yes,

1059
00:56:46,636 --> 00:56:49,476
Speaker 1: coke crisis was something I did a podcast episode about.

1060
00:56:49,516 --> 00:56:54,036
Speaker 1: Was an episode in the nineties or eighties in Belgium

1061
00:56:54,036 --> 00:56:58,116
Speaker 1: where Belgians became convinced by the way every time I

1062
00:56:58,236 --> 00:57:00,516
Speaker 1: say the word Belgian, I'm reminded of that great Monty

1063
00:57:00,516 --> 00:57:03,276
Speaker 1: Python episode about they wanted to come up with a

1064
00:57:03,356 --> 00:57:06,116
Speaker 1: nickname for Belgian's, remember, and one of them was sprouts,

1065
00:57:06,676 --> 00:57:08,556
Speaker 1: one of them was Flems, and then the winner was

1066
00:57:08,636 --> 00:57:16,076
Speaker 1: dirty and Belgian best so so fantastic Um. But Belgians

1067
00:57:16,116 --> 00:57:21,036
Speaker 1: became convinced that coke was poisoning them and all these

1068
00:57:21,156 --> 00:57:23,916
Speaker 1: kids got sick. And then it turns out there was

1069
00:57:23,956 --> 00:57:26,316
Speaker 1: not conversions, and yeah it was it was just all

1070
00:57:26,556 --> 00:57:29,916
Speaker 1: um hysteria, a moral panic. Anyway, this person wants to

1071
00:57:29,916 --> 00:57:35,756
Speaker 1: suggest that people that Trump is somewhat trumped arrangement syndrome.

1072
00:57:36,316 --> 00:57:37,756
Speaker 1: You know which is you know that you know that

1073
00:57:37,756 --> 00:57:41,996
Speaker 1: phenomenon when um one observes people who and the ques

1074
00:57:42,236 --> 00:57:44,996
Speaker 1: the name implies maybe that they're they shouldn't, but that

1075
00:57:45,116 --> 00:57:47,956
Speaker 1: people just can't stop thinking about Trump and how angry

1076
00:57:47,996 --> 00:57:50,276
Speaker 1: they are about Trump and how they are about Trump,

1077
00:57:50,396 --> 00:57:53,156
Speaker 1: and it just distorts their whole like frame of engagement

1078
00:57:53,156 --> 00:57:56,156
Speaker 1: with the world. Slash gives them great clarity and accuracy,

1079
00:57:56,196 --> 00:58:01,756
Speaker 1: depending on whether you're inside the syndrome or absence syndrome. UM,

1080
00:58:01,916 --> 00:58:08,956
Speaker 1: I don't know. Maybe Nicole wins, she gets a freak

1081
00:58:09,316 --> 00:58:10,836
Speaker 1: of the well, she already bought a copy of the book.

1082
00:58:12,836 --> 00:58:15,596
Speaker 1: This is a serious question, and it connects up to

1083
00:58:16,596 --> 00:58:19,476
Speaker 1: the fact that this book really is about very serious things.

1084
00:58:19,756 --> 00:58:21,076
Speaker 1: It has it has all of the fun of him

1085
00:58:21,076 --> 00:58:24,236
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gottwell book, but it's framed as an inquiry into

1086
00:58:24,356 --> 00:58:26,876
Speaker 1: one of the deepest, hardest and most serious questions that

1087
00:58:27,196 --> 00:58:30,476
Speaker 1: we're facing as a society. And the question is, do

1088
00:58:30,516 --> 00:58:33,356
Speaker 1: you think that we as Americans This is Christina from Boston,

1089
00:58:33,756 --> 00:58:37,396
Speaker 1: have improved in civil dialogue in the years, say, since

1090
00:58:37,516 --> 00:58:40,196
Speaker 1: nine to eleven, the last almost two decades, or have

1091
00:58:40,276 --> 00:58:45,756
Speaker 1: we regressed when it comes to talking to strangers. It's

1092
00:58:45,836 --> 00:58:48,676
Speaker 1: kind of a deep question. Well, in some ways we

1093
00:58:48,796 --> 00:58:55,356
Speaker 1: have regressed in a sense of um that you know,

1094
00:58:55,396 --> 00:58:58,556
Speaker 1: we're in a peculiar moment where we're we're obsessed with

1095
00:58:58,556 --> 00:59:01,276
Speaker 1: each other's differences and not what we have in common.

1096
00:59:02,796 --> 00:59:05,956
Speaker 1: And you know, at other times, other countries don't have

1097
00:59:06,036 --> 00:59:09,676
Speaker 1: these kinds of conversations. Canadians don't get together and enumeered

1098
00:59:09,676 --> 00:59:12,436
Speaker 1: all the ways in which they disagree. They do the opposite, right,

1099
00:59:12,676 --> 00:59:16,076
Speaker 1: They talk about things they all share. Um, that's the age,

1100
00:59:16,236 --> 00:59:18,036
Speaker 1: and they do it nicely. They do it nicely. The

1101
00:59:18,076 --> 00:59:21,996
Speaker 1: great Canadian project is this endless search for common ground

1102
00:59:22,276 --> 00:59:26,076
Speaker 1: gets a little tedious at times, but um, this country

1103
00:59:26,196 --> 00:59:29,636
Speaker 1: has decided, but less shooting each other. This country's society

1104
00:59:29,676 --> 00:59:31,476
Speaker 1: doesn't want to do that. I guess that would be

1105
00:59:31,476 --> 00:59:34,276
Speaker 1: point number one. But two slash we've never done it.

1106
00:59:34,756 --> 00:59:37,196
Speaker 1: Maybe we've never done it. Be to be there. Yeah,

1107
00:59:37,236 --> 00:59:39,356
Speaker 1: but I you know, to going to back to the

1108
00:59:39,436 --> 00:59:42,396
Speaker 1: theme of this This book is a lot about misunderstandings

1109
00:59:41,956 --> 00:59:46,476
Speaker 1: that arise from hasty generalizations about strangers. I'm always struck

1110
00:59:46,516 --> 00:59:51,836
Speaker 1: on Twitter about how you know seventy five of what

1111
00:59:51,916 --> 00:59:54,876
Speaker 1: are classified as disagreements on Twitter or not disagreements, but

1112
00:59:54,916 --> 00:59:58,316
Speaker 1: they are misunderstandings. Yeah that they just people have been

1113
00:59:58,316 --> 01:00:00,556
Speaker 1: bothered to figure out what the other person is arguing,

1114
01:00:00,836 --> 01:00:03,396
Speaker 1: or they delicated by the medium, which is designed to

1115
01:00:03,436 --> 01:00:05,236
Speaker 1: make it impossible for you to explain your argument in

1116
01:00:05,316 --> 01:00:07,396
Speaker 1: any depth. It is astonished to me what a bad

1117
01:00:07,396 --> 01:00:10,316
Speaker 1: idea of Twitter is, Like if you it's one of

1118
01:00:10,356 --> 01:00:13,156
Speaker 1: those things like in retrospect, like who if they were

1119
01:00:13,356 --> 01:00:15,836
Speaker 1: so like who thought this was going to end up

1120
01:00:15,876 --> 01:00:18,676
Speaker 1: being Remember there was that golden period of a like

1121
01:00:18,756 --> 01:00:21,556
Speaker 1: a year and a half when they were serious people

1122
01:00:21,556 --> 01:00:23,156
Speaker 1: in this country who thought that Twitter was going to

1123
01:00:23,236 --> 01:00:26,516
Speaker 1: save the world from tyranny. And I will say I

1124
01:00:26,596 --> 01:00:29,556
Speaker 1: was a skeptic in that moment, and I people were

1125
01:00:29,636 --> 01:00:32,196
Speaker 1: so angry with me for not believing in the condemptive

1126
01:00:32,236 --> 01:00:33,916
Speaker 1: power of Twitter, and I was like, I don't know,

1127
01:00:34,076 --> 01:00:36,676
Speaker 1: like I don't see how you know. And sure enough,

1128
01:00:36,876 --> 01:00:39,196
Speaker 1: what happens. It turns out Twitter is good for like

1129
01:00:39,556 --> 01:00:43,036
Speaker 1: cat videos. That's useful. But other than that, we had

1130
01:00:43,076 --> 01:00:45,236
Speaker 1: Facebook for that. We already had Facebook for that. But

1131
01:00:45,276 --> 01:00:49,316
Speaker 1: it is astonishing to me how like pointless it is.

1132
01:00:49,476 --> 01:00:51,716
Speaker 1: But it is fascinating then that it has the reach

1133
01:00:51,756 --> 01:00:54,756
Speaker 1: that it has. I mean specifically among people who talk

1134
01:00:55,036 --> 01:00:57,956
Speaker 1: at length for a living, people who should do the

1135
01:00:58,036 --> 01:01:02,476
Speaker 1: best at going deeper conversational at least in principle, seemed

1136
01:01:02,516 --> 01:01:06,356
Speaker 1: to have this deep desire to communicate on Twitter, the

1137
01:01:06,436 --> 01:01:08,876
Speaker 1: framework in which all of the things that in theory

1138
01:01:08,916 --> 01:01:12,036
Speaker 1: make them worth listening to are taken away are stripped away.

1139
01:01:12,076 --> 01:01:13,836
Speaker 1: I mean, it's like, you know, your your example of

1140
01:01:14,556 --> 01:01:17,996
Speaker 1: in the LSAD podcast, your example of speed chess compared

1141
01:01:18,036 --> 01:01:20,356
Speaker 1: to a real chess. All these people who are actually

1142
01:01:20,396 --> 01:01:25,316
Speaker 1: supposedly writers, you know, scholars, people who think in larger

1143
01:01:25,476 --> 01:01:28,396
Speaker 1: longer than a sentence or two, and that's who spends

1144
01:01:28,396 --> 01:01:29,916
Speaker 1: a lot of time yelling at each other. And this

1145
01:01:30,076 --> 01:01:32,436
Speaker 1: understand each other on Twitter. I have no answer for

1146
01:01:32,556 --> 01:01:35,116
Speaker 1: why we have the impulse to do that, but apparently

1147
01:01:35,276 --> 01:01:38,036
Speaker 1: we do, and distinctively that group of people, because it's

1148
01:01:38,036 --> 01:01:40,676
Speaker 1: not like Twitter has as many users as one of

1149
01:01:40,676 --> 01:01:44,076
Speaker 1: the formats that allows for a longer form communication. Yeah, yeah,

1150
01:01:44,396 --> 01:01:45,916
Speaker 1: I don't. I don't get it. It's like the it's

1151
01:01:45,956 --> 01:01:48,556
Speaker 1: like the id of It's like the id of people

1152
01:01:48,596 --> 01:01:50,796
Speaker 1: who like to express themselves at length. It's like, really

1153
01:01:50,876 --> 01:01:53,036
Speaker 1: that they can sum it up in one sentence, which

1154
01:01:53,076 --> 01:01:56,436
Speaker 1: actually they can't. Yeah. Yeah, it joins along this I

1155
01:01:56,436 --> 01:02:02,316
Speaker 1: always even it should be this everything. Every institution, uh,

1156
01:02:03,356 --> 01:02:05,876
Speaker 1: in a kind of functioning society should have a sunset

1157
01:02:05,916 --> 01:02:10,116
Speaker 1: clause and then at that moment of sunset, everyone sits

1158
01:02:10,156 --> 01:02:12,796
Speaker 1: around and should say, well up or down? Good idea?

1159
01:02:12,996 --> 01:02:15,156
Speaker 1: Do we should we start over? Like? Be very imagine

1160
01:02:15,156 --> 01:02:17,476
Speaker 1: if we hit like so, if we had a sunset

1161
01:02:17,476 --> 01:02:23,596
Speaker 1: clause on I mentioned higher education before, Yeah, super useful

1162
01:02:24,276 --> 01:02:27,596
Speaker 1: for us to say. In say, in twenty twenty five,

1163
01:02:27,836 --> 01:02:29,996
Speaker 1: we all get together and we say, okay, let's start

1164
01:02:29,996 --> 01:02:32,396
Speaker 1: over and see what we come up with. Right, we

1165
01:02:32,396 --> 01:02:34,956
Speaker 1: would come up with something very very different. Similarly with Twitter,

1166
01:02:34,996 --> 01:02:37,756
Speaker 1: if we decided in twenty twenty Five's go, We're gonna

1167
01:02:37,756 --> 01:02:39,836
Speaker 1: shut it down for six months and then have a

1168
01:02:39,876 --> 01:02:42,516
Speaker 1: meeting and figure out what we want, whether we want

1169
01:02:42,516 --> 01:02:44,316
Speaker 1: to replace it or what we would replace it with.

1170
01:02:44,556 --> 01:02:46,556
Speaker 1: We would come up with something very different. There's no

1171
01:02:46,636 --> 01:02:51,436
Speaker 1: reason these things persist long past their their useful stage.

1172
01:02:52,076 --> 01:02:57,116
Speaker 1: Last question and it connects Canada to the time, when

1173
01:02:57,156 --> 01:02:59,556
Speaker 1: and why was the last time you applied your pull

1174
01:02:59,636 --> 01:03:04,156
Speaker 1: the goalie rule in real life? Another recond ask that

1175
01:03:04,196 --> 01:03:07,676
Speaker 1: because you know we're almost done here, I'm pulling the goalie.

1176
01:03:07,796 --> 01:03:11,156
Speaker 1: But this is another friends to one of my podcasts

1177
01:03:11,476 --> 01:03:15,356
Speaker 1: where I described the work of this hilarious hedge fund

1178
01:03:15,396 --> 01:03:19,396
Speaker 1: guy who published a paper on SSRN rolls quast website

1179
01:03:19,796 --> 01:03:23,236
Speaker 1: about when you should what is the optimal time to

1180
01:03:23,236 --> 01:03:25,196
Speaker 1: pull a goalie in a hockey game if if you

1181
01:03:25,196 --> 01:03:28,796
Speaker 1: are down a goal And his answer is like I forgot,

1182
01:03:28,876 --> 01:03:31,476
Speaker 1: it's like with six minutes to go far, far, longer

1183
01:03:31,476 --> 01:03:33,676
Speaker 1: than anyone would begin to imagine, and he does all

1184
01:03:33,716 --> 01:03:35,036
Speaker 1: the math and then if no one ever does that,

1185
01:03:35,196 --> 01:03:37,316
Speaker 1: no one ever does that way. But the idea is

1186
01:03:37,316 --> 01:03:40,996
Speaker 1: that you should take big risks, take big way your

1187
01:03:41,076 --> 01:03:43,716
Speaker 1: way behind when you're way behind, when all is hopeless. Um,

1188
01:03:44,076 --> 01:03:47,556
Speaker 1: when was the last time I took a massive, unparalleled

1189
01:03:47,636 --> 01:03:54,956
Speaker 1: risk because I was otherwise almost certain to lose. Yeah,

1190
01:03:55,036 --> 01:03:57,476
Speaker 1: it's a really good question. It is a good question.

1191
01:03:57,956 --> 01:04:04,716
Speaker 1: Jim from Bridgewater. Well, no, I should add that you're

1192
01:04:04,716 --> 01:04:08,396
Speaker 1: willing to share. What about you? Have you ever pulled?

1193
01:04:09,596 --> 01:04:16,636
Speaker 1: Do you ever? Um, that's a good question, I think, Um, yeah,

1194
01:04:16,676 --> 01:04:18,196
Speaker 1: I think I've I think I've done it in my

1195
01:04:18,276 --> 01:04:22,276
Speaker 1: personal life on multiple occasions. Um, you know, gone for

1196
01:04:22,356 --> 01:04:25,676
Speaker 1: like the big the big risk. Yeah, um, you know,

1197
01:04:26,316 --> 01:04:29,196
Speaker 1: hoping that it would make things work out. But as

1198
01:04:29,196 --> 01:04:31,116
Speaker 1: we know from the statistics of pulling the goalie, usually

1199
01:04:31,116 --> 01:04:32,876
Speaker 1: what happens is they just score a goal on you

1200
01:04:32,916 --> 01:04:35,356
Speaker 1: and it doesn't work out. Yeah, you usually fail. Yeah,

1201
01:04:35,396 --> 01:04:38,316
Speaker 1: so that would be me. Elizabeth Thorns politically didn't she.

1202
01:04:39,476 --> 01:04:42,036
Speaker 1: I don think Elizabeth Tharos. I don't think Elizabeth what's

1203
01:04:42,036 --> 01:04:50,316
Speaker 1: her last name of Paris? Elizabeth Holmes Holmes, Elizabeth Holmes

1204
01:04:50,316 --> 01:04:54,196
Speaker 1: of Tharnis was playing without a goalie from the very

1205
01:04:54,956 --> 01:04:58,676
Speaker 1: This is not true. So think about her position if

1206
01:04:58,716 --> 01:05:01,356
Speaker 1: you think about this rationally. So, she had this idea

1207
01:05:01,636 --> 01:05:05,476
Speaker 1: that you could completely take over a huge corner of

1208
01:05:05,516 --> 01:05:10,076
Speaker 1: the healthcare market if you could do. Liabel diagnoses from

1209
01:05:10,076 --> 01:05:13,756
Speaker 1: a drop of blood. She was, let's say, generously, twenty

1210
01:05:13,756 --> 01:05:16,196
Speaker 1: five percent of the way there, right, but we don't

1211
01:05:16,196 --> 01:05:17,836
Speaker 1: we don't really know how far she was, and her

1212
01:05:18,156 --> 01:05:20,796
Speaker 1: her gamble was I can get to one hundred percent.

1213
01:05:20,836 --> 01:05:23,556
Speaker 1: Undergraduate advisor appeared in the at least in the documentary

1214
01:05:23,596 --> 01:05:25,636
Speaker 1: and said she was zero percent of the because, okay,

1215
01:05:25,716 --> 01:05:27,956
Speaker 1: because I explained to her that it was impossible. Yeah,

1216
01:05:28,036 --> 01:05:29,836
Speaker 1: that's right. And then the other guy got it. The

1217
01:05:29,876 --> 01:05:31,836
Speaker 1: other advisor from Stanford got on and said, but she

1218
01:05:31,916 --> 01:05:34,796
Speaker 1: was a genius, so it was possible. Yeah. So let's say, okay,

1219
01:05:34,836 --> 01:05:36,636
Speaker 1: let's say that she was fifteen percent of the way.

1220
01:05:36,636 --> 01:05:39,196
Speaker 1: They okay, So she was, in a sense, pulling the goalie.

1221
01:05:39,276 --> 01:05:42,556
Speaker 1: So she was faced with an all but impossible task.

1222
01:05:42,636 --> 01:05:44,836
Speaker 1: But there was this little glimmer of hope if she

1223
01:05:44,916 --> 01:05:47,436
Speaker 1: gambled everything that she could pull it off. And if

1224
01:05:47,436 --> 01:05:50,236
Speaker 1: she pulled it off, she would be a mega billionaire.

1225
01:05:50,636 --> 01:05:53,596
Speaker 1: I don't know, I mean. So she chose to play

1226
01:05:53,796 --> 01:05:57,036
Speaker 1: very very very long odds. So did Bernie Madoff. According

1227
01:05:57,036 --> 01:05:58,636
Speaker 1: to that theory, Well no, no no, remember could have had

1228
01:05:58,636 --> 01:06:01,476
Speaker 1: the first pay scheme that worked by Bonnie Monoff never

1229
01:06:01,556 --> 01:06:06,316
Speaker 1: made an honest attempt to actually invest people's money. But

1230
01:06:06,396 --> 01:06:08,036
Speaker 1: he was a fraud from the start. Hers was not

1231
01:06:08,076 --> 01:06:10,316
Speaker 1: a fraud from the start. I mean, no one claims

1232
01:06:10,316 --> 01:06:12,916
Speaker 1: that she was. Did it was all fictional that when

1233
01:06:13,316 --> 01:06:16,076
Speaker 1: all the activity going on in her firm was just

1234
01:06:16,116 --> 01:06:17,916
Speaker 1: for show. No people were trying to solve the problem.

1235
01:06:17,956 --> 01:06:20,356
Speaker 1: It's just the problem was pertually impossible to solve. But

1236
01:06:20,396 --> 01:06:23,476
Speaker 1: there was some little glimmer of not I don't mean

1237
01:06:23,556 --> 01:06:27,156
Speaker 1: to defend her, but I do want to point out

1238
01:06:27,276 --> 01:06:30,196
Speaker 1: you just there is a kind of little sliver of

1239
01:06:30,236 --> 01:06:33,716
Speaker 1: logic to what she was doing. She was classically pulling

1240
01:06:33,796 --> 01:06:36,876
Speaker 1: the goalie, like she was down by three goals with

1241
01:06:37,716 --> 01:06:39,676
Speaker 1: you know, deep in the third quarter, and she decided,

1242
01:06:39,676 --> 01:06:42,476
Speaker 1: I'm going to go for broke. I'm gonna convince a

1243
01:06:42,476 --> 01:06:44,156
Speaker 1: bunch of rich people to give me lots of money,

1244
01:06:44,196 --> 01:06:45,356
Speaker 1: and I'm going to try and do this thing that

1245
01:06:45,716 --> 01:06:48,756
Speaker 1: i'm And had she succeeded, she would be right in

1246
01:06:48,876 --> 01:06:53,276
Speaker 1: the pantheon. Well, none of you has pulled the goalie

1247
01:06:53,316 --> 01:06:57,356
Speaker 1: by coming here tonight, and you've had a short thing

1248
01:06:57,356 --> 01:07:00,836
Speaker 1: from the beginning because you bought the book, and I'm

1249
01:07:00,876 --> 01:07:02,956
Speaker 1: thrilled that you did come and thrilled, and Malcolm came

1250
01:07:02,996 --> 01:07:04,716
Speaker 1: and joined us, and I'm really grateful to you, Malcolm

1251
01:07:04,756 --> 01:07:06,636
Speaker 1: for the conversation and thank you all for coming. Thank you.

1252
01:07:14,596 --> 01:07:17,516
Speaker 1: Deep Background is brought to you by Pushkin Industries. Our

1253
01:07:17,556 --> 01:07:20,916
Speaker 1: producer is Lydia Gancott, with engineering by Jason Gambrell and

1254
01:07:20,996 --> 01:07:24,876
Speaker 1: Jason Rostkowski. Our showrunner is Sophie mckibbon. Our theme music

1255
01:07:24,956 --> 01:07:28,196
Speaker 1: is composed by Luis GERA special thanks to the Pushkin Brass,

1256
01:07:28,396 --> 01:07:36,076
Speaker 1: Malcolm Gladwell, Jacob Weisberg, and Mia Lobell. This week, we

1257
01:07:36,076 --> 01:07:37,756
Speaker 1: would also like to give a shout out to the

1258
01:07:37,756 --> 01:07:41,356
Speaker 1: Harvard Bookstore my home bookstore, for helping organize the conversation

1259
01:07:41,396 --> 01:07:44,716
Speaker 1: between me and Malcolm. I'm Noah Feldman. You can follow

1260
01:07:44,756 --> 01:07:48,356
Speaker 1: me on Twitter at Noah R. Feldman. This is Deep Background.