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Speaker 1: Welcome to How the Money. I'm Joel and I am

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Speaker 1: Matt and today we're talking about becoming a financial Samurai

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Speaker 1: with Sam Dogan. That's right, Sam Dogan. He is the

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Speaker 1: founder of Financial Samurai, which you probably had heard of, uh,

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Speaker 1: and he is joining us today. Sam was one of

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Speaker 1: the pioneers of fire back when he started writing at

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Speaker 1: Financial Samurai over ten years ago. He retired at age

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Speaker 1: thirty four after a career at Goldman Sachs. But then

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Speaker 1: actually he came out of retirement because retired life was

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Speaker 1: a little too boring for him. But he has written

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Speaker 1: over twenty articles at his site and now his new

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Speaker 1: book By This Not That it's about to be released

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Speaker 1: very soon, which is an excellent guide on how you

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Speaker 1: can optimies you your money to build wealth and live

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Speaker 1: life on your own terms. And yeah, I'm looking forward

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Speaker 1: to talking about financial independence, about maximizing your earning potential,

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Speaker 1: engineering a layoff. That's something that he that we're gonna

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Speaker 1: get to. We're excited to talk about all of that

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Speaker 1: and more today. And by the way, we're gonna give

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Speaker 1: away several copies of Sam's book By This Not That, uh,

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Speaker 1: And so stick around to the end of the episode

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Speaker 1: to learn how you can enter to win one of

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Speaker 1: those copies. But Sam, thank you so much for joining

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Speaker 1: us today. Hey guys, thanks so much for having me Sam.

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Speaker 1: We're pumped to talk to you man. And the first

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Speaker 1: question we ask everyone out of the gate is what

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Speaker 1: their craft beer equivalent is. And that's because Matt and

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Speaker 1: I love craft beer. We spent a lot of money

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Speaker 1: on it while we're trying to be good with our money,

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Speaker 1: save and invest for the future. So, yeah, do you

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Speaker 1: have something like a craft beer equivalent in your life? Yeah?

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Speaker 1: So craft beer equivalent would be chlorine tablets or chlorine granules.

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Speaker 1: You know what that is for It sounds like the

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Speaker 1: opposite of a splur sounds I am very confus used.

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Speaker 1: I cannot wait to keep these are all about. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: there you go. So I get a bottle of chlorine

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Speaker 1: granular tablets once every three weeks maybe, and I dump

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Speaker 1: them into my hot tub every other day to keep

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Speaker 1: the water clear and clean. So that is the absolute

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Speaker 1: best splurge I've ever spent. This was six years ago.

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Speaker 1: I spent fifteen dollars to buy hot tub, set up

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Speaker 1: the level cement platforms, set up the electronics, and then

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Speaker 1: just go with it. So that is my splurge. How

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Speaker 1: often are you using that hot tub? So I go

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Speaker 1: about three times a week, and then since the pandemic started,

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Speaker 1: I've been going about four or five times a week,

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Speaker 1: and it's been a great outlet for my son. And

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Speaker 1: I had a bond because the hot tub is actually

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Speaker 1: at a rental property, but half of the rental property

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Speaker 1: is open, and so it's kind of like our sanctuary,

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Speaker 1: our escape. Oh so it's like, Okay, I see what

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Speaker 1: you did here. This is an investment. You got to

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Speaker 1: run off those expenses. It's definitely an investment and there yea.

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Speaker 1: Hey that's important man. Okay, So Joe, you gonna gonna

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Speaker 1: pull the trigger. Joel always talks about getting a hot

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Speaker 1: tub like pool my kids love. Just two years ago,

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Speaker 1: you thought about getting one of the inflatable hot tubs.

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Speaker 1: I tried on Black Friday, Sam, there was one of

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Speaker 1: those inflatable hot tubs on Walmart site for like, listen,

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Speaker 1: two hundred bucks. But I'm a little hopped on at

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Speaker 1: seven PM when it was supposed to be on sale

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Speaker 1: and it was sold out to jerk the rug out

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Speaker 1: from money, Yeah exactly, Yeah, I was bumped but maybe

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Speaker 1: I need to like go all out and get one

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Speaker 1: of those nice ones, like Sam Scott, you gotta get out,

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Speaker 1: you gotta go big and get the hardwired hot tub

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Speaker 1: with the twenty jets whatever. That is so worth it. Okay,

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Speaker 1: Well if I if I proceed, I'm gonna reach out

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Speaker 1: to you for with some questions to get you that

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Speaker 1: Cadillac of hot tubs. Sam. So you first started writing

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Speaker 1: about financial independence, I feel like before it was even cool, uh,

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Speaker 1: way back in the day. What is it that inspired

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Speaker 1: you to pursue that that lifestyle and to start documenting

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Speaker 1: it all way back in two thousand nine. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: I started working at Goldman sax In and they required

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Speaker 1: me to get into the office at five thirty in

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Speaker 1: the morning. And it wasn't just getting in a five thirty.

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Speaker 1: I had to stay back beyond seven pm every night

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Speaker 1: to connect with Asia because the Asian markets were opening.

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Speaker 1: And so I knew right then and there in after

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Speaker 1: one month, I couldn't last, you know, for hopefully until

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Speaker 1: I was aged forty. I like, beyond that, there was

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Speaker 1: just no way to have a multi decade career in finance.

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Speaker 1: And I mean, you know, I gained weight, I got sciatica.

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Speaker 1: You know, I was just always stressed, and so I decided,

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Speaker 1: you know what, I'm gonna try to invest and save

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Speaker 1: as much as possible the first month from work so

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Speaker 1: that one day I could escape. And so in two

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Speaker 1: thousand and nine, July is when I started financial Samurai,

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Speaker 1: because I had been putting it off since two thousand

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Speaker 1: and six after I graduated from business school part time.

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Speaker 1: And July two tho nine was the bottom of the

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Speaker 1: global financial crisis, and I lost thirty five pc of

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Speaker 1: my net worth in six months. That's you know, that

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Speaker 1: took ten years to build. And I just felt like

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Speaker 1: a dummy, and I felt, you know what, there's gotta

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Speaker 1: be a better way to get out of this. And

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Speaker 1: writing was Mike Catharsis, Okay, So yeah, it was like

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Speaker 1: partly Catharsis, part documentation, and I, I just I'm curious

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Speaker 1: to seeing your network dropped by something like other people

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Speaker 1: in like today's market might be feeling something like you

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Speaker 1: were feeling back then. They might have seen, you know,

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Speaker 1: their their their stock market holdings dropped by if if

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Speaker 1: they're heavily exposed to crypto, potentially more so, Yeah, how

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Speaker 1: would you how would you talk to talk people through

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Speaker 1: maybe an experience like this. Since you've kind of dealt

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Speaker 1: with it firsthand and have recovered handsomely well, the important

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Speaker 1: thing to do is learn from your experience. So investing

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Speaker 1: is a long term game. It's a psychological mind vendor.

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Speaker 1: The person who lasts the longest and is the most

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Speaker 1: calm usually wins because over time, right you see stocks

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Speaker 1: go up ten percent a year, real estate is up

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Speaker 1: unlevered about three to four and a half percent a

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Speaker 1: year just on average, So you know that over a

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Speaker 1: ten twenty year period, you're probably gonna be fine. It's

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Speaker 1: the people who wig out and just sell and just

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Speaker 1: get out of things when things are crashing that generally

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Speaker 1: end up regretting it over time. So the key right now,

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Speaker 1: let's say in two you're down huge on your investments,

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Speaker 1: is to understand what your risk tolerance is. And it's

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Speaker 1: a wake up call. If you feel bad right now,

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Speaker 1: horrible that you're losing whatever you're losing, then it's probably

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Speaker 1: because your risks exposure is too high and you have

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Speaker 1: to adjust that downwards. So over the two thousand dot

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Speaker 1: Com bomb, the two thousand and eight two thousand and

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Speaker 1: nine financial crisis, I've been able to hone my net

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Speaker 1: worth asset allocation to match my risk tolerance. And everybody's

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Speaker 1: risk tolerance is different because everybody's goals and DNA are different, right,

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Speaker 1: And so you've got to use this as an opportunity

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Speaker 1: to figure out what your risk tolerance is and net

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Speaker 1: worth asset allocate apprope really yeah, So, Sam, you know

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Speaker 1: like you're focused in the new book. It it centers

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Speaker 1: around spending, and you say that like most folks, they

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Speaker 1: get told about the saving side of the equation, but

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Speaker 1: that we're often lost when it comes to knowing how

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Speaker 1: to actually spend our way to wealth. Can you explain

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Speaker 1: to to listeners what you mean by that? Right, So,

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Speaker 1: there's only so much you can save, but the income

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Speaker 1: side is unlimited. All the wealthiest people in the world

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Speaker 1: didn't get super wealthy by saving their way to wealth,

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Speaker 1: but by making more money, building more equity, building companies

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Speaker 1: and businesses. So it's really going from a defensive approach,

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Speaker 1: which I think should be a given saving budgeting, to

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Speaker 1: an offensive approach where you can get your vacuum money

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Speaker 1: vacuum cleaner and then just soak up as much money

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Speaker 1: as possible in the world. Because truly, there's trillions and

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Speaker 1: trillions of dollars for the taking, And it's a mindset

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Speaker 1: you have to say, I too deserve to be rich.

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Speaker 1: Why can't I stop up all this money as well?

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Speaker 1: So it's really about thinking on the offense rather than

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Speaker 1: the defense. Yeah, well, you talk about the root of

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Speaker 1: inaction in your book and you say that, like that

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Speaker 1: part of the reason so many of us don't take

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Speaker 1: action when it comes to investing is because we desire

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Speaker 1: absolute certainty. So in your mind, for folks who are

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Speaker 1: like I would love to invest, it just feels a

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Speaker 1: little risky. How how can we overcome maybe that tendency

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Speaker 1: that so many of us have towards inaction, towards really

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Speaker 1: kind of standing pat right. So it's important to realize

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Speaker 1: that the fear in your head is often worse than

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Speaker 1: the reality. And the other point to know is it's

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Speaker 1: important to think in probabilities, not absolutes. So what do

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Speaker 1: I mean by that? When you think in absolutes you

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Speaker 1: short change yourself. You think you need a hun certainty

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Speaker 1: to go ask out that girl or boy, You need

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Speaker 1: a hun certainty to apply for that job or bid

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Speaker 1: on that house before proceed And what a shame because

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Speaker 1: you will likely miss out on so many opportunities. So instead,

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Speaker 1: I encourage you to think in probabilities using a seventy

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Speaker 1: thirty decision making framework. And this decision making framework can

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Speaker 1: be used for investing, for having children, for doing a

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Speaker 1: lot of tackling a lot of life's biggest dilemmas. And

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Speaker 1: the Frameworkers says, if you believe there's a seventy percent

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Speaker 1: probability or better that you will make the right choice,

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Speaker 1: you go for it while having the humility in knowing

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Speaker 1: that thirty percent of the time you're gonna make the

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Speaker 1: wrong choice, but that's okay because you're gonna learn from

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Speaker 1: that choice and make better decisions going forward, right. I mean,

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Speaker 1: I guess the problem there, though, is that it's difficult

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Speaker 1: to determine when you are kind of crossing that seventy

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Speaker 1: percent threshold, right, and so so much of this, I

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Speaker 1: mean it kind of comes down to you as an

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Speaker 1: individual to kind of weigh the risk to kind of

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Speaker 1: determined to figure out on your own that like, Okay,

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Speaker 1: you know this, this feels like something that's seventy I

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Speaker 1: think that's the pushback. I think a lot of folks

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Speaker 1: might say that why. I get that theoretically, I get

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Speaker 1: that as a principle, but in practice I think that

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Speaker 1: can be difficult, right, right, So there's two ways to

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Speaker 1: approach this um. One is by making calculations. Making calculations

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Speaker 1: for everything, whether it's from the NBA Finals who's gonna

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Speaker 1: win by how many games? To who's gonna win the

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Speaker 1: Dog Show, to how long that marriage is going to last,

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Speaker 1: to whether you're going to get into that incubator for

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Speaker 1: your startup and so forth. And what you do is you,

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Speaker 1: before something happens, you make a prediction, and then you

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Speaker 1: write down why you think it's gonna happen that way,

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Speaker 1: and then sooner or later you're gonna find out the result.

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Speaker 1: And then you do a post mortem and try to

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Speaker 1: analyze why things didn't go the way it did or

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Speaker 1: why it did go. But are you sure it went

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Speaker 1: the way it did because of those reasons you highlighted

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Speaker 1: or big as is something else? You don't want to

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Speaker 1: be delusional in your thought. So this takes experience and practice,

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Speaker 1: really intentional practice. And that's something that I learned on

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Speaker 1: the trading for working for a couple of Wall Street

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Speaker 1: firms for thirteen years. You really need to make some

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Speaker 1: probability estimates. The other way to get around this to

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Speaker 1: overcome your fear is to listen and to read from

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Speaker 1: people who have been there before. And so that's the

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Speaker 1: whole point behind by this, not that how to spend

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Speaker 1: your way to wealth and freedom. Not only is it

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Speaker 1: a book about helping you achieve financial freedom in a

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Speaker 1: risk appropriate way, it also tackles some of life's biggest dilemmas.

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Speaker 1: You know, things such as should you marry for money

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Speaker 1: or marry for love, Should you live in an expensive

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Speaker 1: city um for the greater career potential, or should you

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Speaker 1: relocate to a lower cost area, should you have kids

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Speaker 1: later or younger? So all of these big dilemmas are

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Speaker 1: approached using the seventy framework in my book. Yeah, I

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Speaker 1: thought it was interesting that you said that people should

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Speaker 1: go to the anemic coal Smith route and always just

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Speaker 1: marry someone who's really rich and really old, and that's

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Speaker 1: what you're set for life, right exactly, And then then

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Speaker 1: you just leap frog generations of hard work and struggles.

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Speaker 1: It's so simple, that's the real trick. Let other people

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Speaker 1: do the compounding for you, and then you just meet

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Speaker 1: them there at the end. The easy button at the

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Speaker 1: easy button. Well one of the things too, you know,

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Speaker 1: you're talking about the probabilities, and I thought that was

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Speaker 1: a great, great framework, But it's also important probably to

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Speaker 1: think about the potential negative consequences of something that you

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Speaker 1: could do. And when, for instance, when you're talking about

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Speaker 1: asking somebody out on a date, and like, how bad

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Speaker 1: is the negative potential consequence of being talked about? Uh?

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Speaker 1: And I had the distinctly remember when I was, you know,

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Speaker 1: in my early twenties before I met my lovely wife,

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Speaker 1: trying and I was like so bad at asking girls out,

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Speaker 1: and I was like, finally, like what is the possible

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Speaker 1: worst possible outcome. I'm gonna feel like crap for maybe

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Speaker 1: twenty minutes and then I'll get over it. And so

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Speaker 1: it was one of those things where I just kind

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Speaker 1: of started with breathless abandoned to start asking people out

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Speaker 1: on dates and UH. And so that's another thing like

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Speaker 1: when you think about the worst possible outcome of not investing, man,

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Speaker 1: it is so severe that you better get started. But

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Speaker 1: when it comes to something else out the negative possibilities

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Speaker 1: might be so infantestively small that you better just go

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Speaker 1: ahead and do it. Yeah, A lot of about financial

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Speaker 1: independence is about having the courage to change in sub

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Speaker 1: optimal situation. So one test to see if you are

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Speaker 1: truly financially independent is to see if you can change,

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Speaker 1: to take action to change a bad situation. If you

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Speaker 1: feel you're financially independent, but you're still coming into or

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Speaker 1: getting oppressed by, you know, a terrible boss and doing

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Speaker 1: something you don't like, well you're probably not financially independent yet.

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Speaker 1: Well all that note about financial independence, I mean same,

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Speaker 1: can you talk about like the evolution of the fire

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Speaker 1: movement because you know, like folks who saved a huge

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Speaker 1: chunk of their income, like they existed before, you know,

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Speaker 1: the modern fire movement, but I feel that like you

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Speaker 1: kind of helped to bring it mainstream. Like what's your

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Speaker 1: take on where the movement stands right now? Well, it's

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Speaker 1: really interesting. So in two thousand and nine, UM, when

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Speaker 1: I helped kickstart the modern day fire movement. The basic

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Speaker 1: definition of fire is if you have enough passive income

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Speaker 1: or passive investment income to cover your basic living expenses,

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Speaker 1: then you're financially independent. So what I've noticed over time

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Speaker 1: is that definition of financial independence has changed, where there's

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Speaker 1: terms such as Coast Fire, Barista fire, Lean fire, and

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Speaker 1: all sorts of fire and what it is terminology has spread. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I mean it's it's pretty interesting to watch. And what

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Speaker 1: it is is based off human psychology because it really

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Speaker 1: is hard to accumulates enough capital to generate that passive income.

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Speaker 1: It takes you know, ten twenty years, and a lot

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Speaker 1: of people just can't wait too long and they will

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Speaker 1: lose steam. So what has happened is instead of waiting

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Speaker 1: that long, people have created these new terminologies to help

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Speaker 1: fit where they are on their journey. Right. So for example,

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Speaker 1: if you say, let's say Barista fire is basically working

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Speaker 1: part time where you know, you get a job at

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Speaker 1: Starbucks and they provide healthcare helps supplement your chilled, chilled

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Speaker 1: out life. Uh. Coast Fire is is a is a

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Speaker 1: fascinating one where it talks about having enough retirement income

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Speaker 1: that if it compounds at the historical rate of return,

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Speaker 1: you'll eventually be living the good life in retirement. But

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Speaker 1: that's just defining what most people are doing right now

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Speaker 1: is just saving for retirement. So it's really a psychological

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Speaker 1: motivating tool to redefine what financial independence is for various

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Speaker 1: people so they can continue saving and investing for the future, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, do you see that as a good thing,

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Speaker 1: because I mean I hear all these things that what

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Speaker 1: it does to me is it makes it sound a

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Speaker 1: little more inclusive, which in my mind, the more folks

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Speaker 1: you can kind of get on the boat, right even

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Speaker 1: though it's like, well you're not you're not totally there yet. Man,

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Speaker 1: you're still working a job or you're still clock in

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Speaker 1: thirty hours a week and benefits necessarily want to quit altogether,

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Speaker 1: which and so like, on one hand, I like I

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Speaker 1: kind of see it as almost like a like a

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Speaker 1: good thing because it gets folks on the boat that

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Speaker 1: they're they're thinking in that direction, even though they might

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Speaker 1: have years or even maybe decades of part time work

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Speaker 1: ahead of them. Yeah, I definitely think it's a good

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Speaker 1: thing to be more inclusive, because again, the journey is

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Speaker 1: very long and sometimes it can be very hard, and

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Speaker 1: it's easy to quit. I mean, how many of us

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Speaker 1: try to go on diets and then we just quit

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Speaker 1: after three months because we're like screw that, right, So

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Speaker 1: the more inclusive it can be to help people go

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Speaker 1: along on their journey, the better. It's just sometimes it

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Speaker 1: can give get a little bit funny where there's another

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Speaker 1: term called why WiFi so wife wife financial independence. In

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Speaker 1: other words, you know, so men, we men have really

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Speaker 1: fragile egos, and so when we leave our jobs and

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Speaker 1: we've become stay at home fathers, a lot of men,

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Speaker 1: it seems like, are not willing to say that they

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Speaker 1: are stay at home dad's. Instead they'll say they retired

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Speaker 1: early and while they have a working wife making good

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Speaker 1: money and providing for healthcare. So again it's that yeah,

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Speaker 1: so it's it's but you know I I I was

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Speaker 1: like for me, it's like more prior to you, whatever

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Speaker 1: you want to do to you know, help your situation,

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Speaker 1: whatever is best for your household. I think that's the

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Speaker 1: most important thing. And however you can frame it, that

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Speaker 1: means that you're going to be able to pursue it

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Speaker 1: with the most vigor in a way that's sustainable for

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Speaker 1: for your life. Right right, All right, Sam, We've got

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Speaker 1: more questions for you. Man. We want to specifically talk

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Speaker 1: more about fire. We want to talk about how real

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Speaker 1: estate can factor in to the financial independence lifestyle, and

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Speaker 1: then we also want to talk about debt. You've got

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Speaker 1: kind of some interesting thoughts on that, so we'll get

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Speaker 1: to those questions right after this. Alright, well we are

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Speaker 1: back from the break. We're talking with Sam Dougan about

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Speaker 1: becoming a financial samurai. Angel. I know you're excited to

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Speaker 1: talk about real estate with Sam here in a second.

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Speaker 1: But uh, before we move on, Sam, let's let's talk

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Speaker 1: about how you know that you've reached five How how

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Speaker 1: you know you once you reach financial independence or achieve

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Speaker 1: some sort of sense of financial freedom. Because we know

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Speaker 1: you're not the biggest fan of the coming up with

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Speaker 1: five times your your annual expenses, how do you suggest

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Speaker 1: that folks think about what they'll need to have saved

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Speaker 1: up in order to hit that five mark? Right? So,

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Speaker 1: the times expenses is fine. It's based off the inverse

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Speaker 1: of the four percent rule, which was started in the

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Speaker 1: ninety nineties, when you can get a risk free return

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Speaker 1: of five to six percent from a ten year bond yield. So,

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Speaker 1: in other words, of course you can withdraw at a

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Speaker 1: four percent rate because you were getting a risk free

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Speaker 1: return of five to six percent. But obviously times have

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Speaker 1: changed over the past thirty years, and so should we.

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Speaker 1: In my mind, it's more important to base your financial

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Speaker 1: independence number based on a multiple of your gross annual income,

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Speaker 1: not your expenses. And why is that because when you

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Speaker 1: base it off your expenses, there's a propensity to cheat. Right,

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Speaker 1: So let's say expenses are a hundred thousand dollars and

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Speaker 1: you want to do twenty five times to get to

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Speaker 1: financial independence. That's two point five million. But let's say

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Speaker 1: you're just tired of it all and it's just you

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Speaker 1: want to just get out quicker, so you just say, well,

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Speaker 1: I'm gonna do lower my expenses to fifty thousand dollars

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Speaker 1: a year. So based on twenty five times, you know

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Speaker 1: you only need to generate what one point to five million.

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Speaker 1: So with the multiple based on income, you can't cheat.

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Speaker 1: And many of us who are pursuing this, you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously by definition, are younger, right forty, And if we

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Speaker 1: base a multiple by income, as your income grows, as

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Speaker 1: most people's income will grow over time, you have to

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Speaker 1: force yourself to save and invest more, there's no cheating.

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Speaker 1: And so the ultimate number that I've come up with

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Speaker 1: is twenty times your annual gross income, which is a

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Speaker 1: huge number, and I know some people will get married

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Speaker 1: very mad at that. But the idea is to change

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Speaker 1: your mindset again from defense to offense, and once you

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Speaker 1: get to about ten times your growth annual income, that's

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Speaker 1: really when you feel like you're you're on a great

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Speaker 1: path of financial independence. So it is a stratus. Do

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Speaker 1: you do you think that number and kind of that

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Speaker 1: mindset is because you're probably more in like the fat

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Speaker 1: fire camp talking about different fire terminology. Maybe because yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're you're less. You're not looking forward to that Barista

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Speaker 1: fire lifestyle. That's not that's not your jam. So do

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Speaker 1: you think that's maybe part of why you kind of

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Speaker 1: come up with with that methodology. It might be, But

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Speaker 1: the good thing about multiples is that it works whatever

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Speaker 1: the absolute dollar amount is. And so again it's back

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Speaker 1: to the philosophy of focusing on income and growth and

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Speaker 1: less so much about budgeting and saving. We should all

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Speaker 1: be budgeting and saving, but this is like a standard

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Speaker 1: operating procedure that should be a default setting. Really, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's just changing that mindset to a number based on income.

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Speaker 1: And I think that's very consistent with my whole philosophy

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Speaker 1: of the book. Okay and okay, so when it comes

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Speaker 1: to real estate, want to talk about real estate? Matt

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Speaker 1: and I we talk about real estate A decent amount

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Speaker 1: on the show, we're both you know, small time mom

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Speaker 1: and pop landlords here in Atlanta have a small stable

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Speaker 1: rental properties, and we are we think it's something that

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Speaker 1: more people should consider, and we're constantly like you know,

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Speaker 1: pushing people, hopefully gently in that direction. But um, yeah,

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Speaker 1: how does real estate factor into the wealth building journey

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Speaker 1: for you? Because it could be you know, a bit

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Speaker 1: daunting for some folks to think about buying a single

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Speaker 1: family home or a duplex renting it out and and

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Speaker 1: you know that's kind of a part time job in

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Speaker 1: addition to your day job. Maybe, So yeah, what are

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Speaker 1: your favorite ways for folks to have some real estate exposure?

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Speaker 1: So my absolute favorite way to build a rental property

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Speaker 1: portfolio to generate passive income is to buy your primary residents,

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Speaker 1: get neutral real estates. You're going up and down with

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Speaker 1: the market, living it for three to five years, maybe longer,

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Speaker 1: rent out that property by another property, living it for

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Speaker 1: three to five years, maybe longer rented out, and over

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Speaker 1: a forty year career post high school to college, you

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Speaker 1: can easily build a three to four rental property portfolio

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Speaker 1: which will most likely pay for all your living expenses

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Speaker 1: by the time you know you're fifty or sixty, and

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Speaker 1: so that's the easiest way to do it. Another easy

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Speaker 1: way to do it is obviously to buy public rates

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Speaker 1: or invest in private real estate funds. UH. You don't

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Speaker 1: need to borrow money. You can just invest as it

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Speaker 1: is to gain that exposure as you're building your down

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Speaker 1: payment for your primary residence or your rental property portfolio.

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Speaker 1: For me, real estate accounts for about of my net worth,

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Speaker 1: excluding the value of my online business. And the reason

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Speaker 1: why it's so high, whereas stocks it's only about is

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Speaker 1: because I'm focused on generating cash flow so I don't

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Speaker 1: have to go back to work, and real estate is

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Speaker 1: something that's more stable generates higher yields. You are the

432
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,959
Speaker 1: king or the queen of your asset. You can do

433
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,480
Speaker 1: things to improve the asset, not only just remodeling and expanding,

434
00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:00,959
Speaker 1: but hustling harder to find better tenants to pay you

435
00:23:01,119 --> 00:23:04,120
Speaker 1: a closer to market rate. So it's a much more

436
00:23:04,240 --> 00:23:08,680
Speaker 1: stable and attractive way to go to generate income, especially

437
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:11,200
Speaker 1: with the higher yields compared to stock divd and yields.

438
00:23:11,520 --> 00:23:14,000
Speaker 1: Because you don't wake up one day and see your

439
00:23:14,040 --> 00:23:18,159
Speaker 1: property down thirty You just continue to you know, collect

440
00:23:18,240 --> 00:23:21,720
Speaker 1: that rental income where it's with stocks crypto, it's like, man,

441
00:23:22,240 --> 00:23:27,360
Speaker 1: you know, look at the tech stocks they're down. Sure, yeah,

442
00:23:27,400 --> 00:23:29,920
Speaker 1: well I guess the biggest downside right too. I mean,

443
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:31,760
Speaker 1: and we think people should save up. We encourage people

444
00:23:31,800 --> 00:23:34,560
Speaker 1: to do. This is kind of the nest egg that

445
00:23:34,640 --> 00:23:37,399
Speaker 1: you have to have on hand for a down payment

446
00:23:37,440 --> 00:23:40,480
Speaker 1: to buy that house. And um, and we want people

447
00:23:40,520 --> 00:23:43,280
Speaker 1: to challenge themselves to save more for a bigger down payment.

448
00:23:43,440 --> 00:23:45,240
Speaker 1: But that that for a lot of people. That's why

449
00:23:45,280 --> 00:23:47,720
Speaker 1: maybe people might go in the direction of real estate

450
00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:51,160
Speaker 1: investment trust a publicly traded reats instead of a single

451
00:23:51,200 --> 00:23:53,679
Speaker 1: family home or a multi family home, right just because

452
00:23:53,840 --> 00:23:56,800
Speaker 1: just because it's more accessible, right, and so it's important.

453
00:23:56,840 --> 00:23:58,560
Speaker 1: So it is daunting to come up with a ten

454
00:23:58,640 --> 00:24:00,320
Speaker 1: or twenty or thirty percent down pay and on the

455
00:24:00,359 --> 00:24:02,480
Speaker 1: value of the home. Right now, the median price in

456
00:24:02,520 --> 00:24:04,920
Speaker 1: America is like four four and fifty thousands, so you're

457
00:24:04,920 --> 00:24:09,879
Speaker 1: talking eighty to nine dollars. But it's all about perspective too,

458
00:24:09,920 --> 00:24:12,760
Speaker 1: because the first time home buyer in America is in

459
00:24:12,800 --> 00:24:16,320
Speaker 1: their early thirties, let's say two to thirty four. So yeah,

460
00:24:16,520 --> 00:24:19,280
Speaker 1: you know, when you're twenty two or twenty. Yeah, you're

461
00:24:19,600 --> 00:24:23,000
Speaker 1: you don't get that money usually, right, But it's about perspective.

462
00:24:23,080 --> 00:24:25,360
Speaker 1: So the average is, let's say thirty four first time

463
00:24:25,400 --> 00:24:27,720
Speaker 1: home buyer. Just try to beat the average. Maybe you

464
00:24:27,720 --> 00:24:30,720
Speaker 1: can get long by age thirty, thirty one or eight.

465
00:24:31,320 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: It's all about being understanding where other people are in

466
00:24:35,080 --> 00:24:38,000
Speaker 1: general with your age group. The one other thing about

467
00:24:38,000 --> 00:24:39,919
Speaker 1: the down payment is, and I talked about this in

468
00:24:39,920 --> 00:24:43,000
Speaker 1: the book, it's about, um, how do you access to

469
00:24:43,000 --> 00:24:44,840
Speaker 1: the bank of Mom and Dad as well? So here

470
00:24:44,880 --> 00:24:49,720
Speaker 1: in San Francisco, of homes we're purchased in cash and

471
00:24:49,840 --> 00:24:52,960
Speaker 1: something like first time home buyers had the help of

472
00:24:53,040 --> 00:24:55,480
Speaker 1: bank of Mom and Dad and in the past, right,

473
00:24:55,480 --> 00:24:57,760
Speaker 1: like if you if you just bought a property on

474
00:24:57,800 --> 00:25:00,879
Speaker 1: your own, you probably poopoo the people who leveraged the

475
00:25:00,920 --> 00:25:02,960
Speaker 1: bank of Mom and Dad. And that was me too,

476
00:25:03,000 --> 00:25:05,120
Speaker 1: I was. I was. And it's barely because I don't

477
00:25:05,119 --> 00:25:07,720
Speaker 1: even have access to that. So yeah, exactly, Yeah, I'm

478
00:25:07,720 --> 00:25:09,320
Speaker 1: like jealous. I'm like, you know, scool, you I had

479
00:25:09,359 --> 00:25:11,399
Speaker 1: to I had to cut myself to save this. You know,

480
00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:13,600
Speaker 1: I'm just jealous. Basically, you're just jealous, right, I was

481
00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,160
Speaker 1: just jealous. But if you think about it if your

482
00:25:16,200 --> 00:25:20,280
Speaker 1: parents are you know, fifties sixty seventy, they've been able

483
00:25:20,320 --> 00:25:24,480
Speaker 1: to save and invest so much and take advantage of

484
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,840
Speaker 1: the massive bull market we've had. And as a parent now,

485
00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,040
Speaker 1: I totally understand why every parent you know I love

486
00:25:31,119 --> 00:25:33,800
Speaker 1: their child and why they want everything to be best

487
00:25:33,840 --> 00:25:37,720
Speaker 1: for their child. And if you're a responsible parent who

488
00:25:37,720 --> 00:25:40,040
Speaker 1: has saved invested over the past thirty to forty years,

489
00:25:40,040 --> 00:25:42,399
Speaker 1: you're probably going to die with too much money, and

490
00:25:42,440 --> 00:25:46,320
Speaker 1: so it's probably better to help your children and loved

491
00:25:46,320 --> 00:25:49,480
Speaker 1: ones while you're still alive then after you're dead, because

492
00:25:49,560 --> 00:25:51,280
Speaker 1: after you're dead, you know your children might be fifty

493
00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,080
Speaker 1: plus years old. So what's the point of that, right.

494
00:25:54,640 --> 00:25:57,000
Speaker 1: I completely agree with that philosophy, and I think, yeah,

495
00:25:57,040 --> 00:25:58,639
Speaker 1: there are way too many people hoping to leave some

496
00:25:58,680 --> 00:26:00,760
Speaker 1: sort of massive inheritance when they would be using it

497
00:26:01,000 --> 00:26:03,320
Speaker 1: in here now to help their kids and uh and

498
00:26:03,359 --> 00:26:05,440
Speaker 1: get to actually experience the joy on their kids faces

499
00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: as were able to maybe buy a house that they

500
00:26:07,440 --> 00:26:10,160
Speaker 1: otherwise wouldn't have been able to. I mean and and yes,

501
00:26:10,600 --> 00:26:13,639
Speaker 1: I totally believe that as a parent, um. And the

502
00:26:13,720 --> 00:26:16,080
Speaker 1: key is obviously not to brag about it. If you're

503
00:26:16,119 --> 00:26:18,600
Speaker 1: receiving all this help from bank of mom and dad.

504
00:26:18,760 --> 00:26:21,200
Speaker 1: You know, it's to be humble, it's to be low key,

505
00:26:21,280 --> 00:26:23,600
Speaker 1: it's to be set helf, and to actually pay your

506
00:26:23,640 --> 00:26:25,719
Speaker 1: parents back to It's just even if they don't need

507
00:26:25,760 --> 00:26:29,640
Speaker 1: the money, I'm sure they'll feel even more great that. Wow,

508
00:26:30,160 --> 00:26:33,479
Speaker 1: you know, my kids are such responsible individuals that they

509
00:26:33,520 --> 00:26:35,960
Speaker 1: want to pay me back. Yeah. Well, when it comes

510
00:26:35,960 --> 00:26:38,439
Speaker 1: to taking out a mortgage, it's interesting because you've been

511
00:26:38,440 --> 00:26:41,959
Speaker 1: a proponent of adjustable rate mortgages, where the interest rate right,

512
00:26:41,960 --> 00:26:43,880
Speaker 1: it can move around after a set period of time.

513
00:26:44,359 --> 00:26:46,399
Speaker 1: So I guess I'm curious because interest rates have been

514
00:26:46,400 --> 00:26:50,600
Speaker 1: on the rise lately, so people with adjustable rate mortgages

515
00:26:50,680 --> 00:26:53,240
Speaker 1: might be shaking in their boots a little bit. How

516
00:26:53,240 --> 00:26:56,640
Speaker 1: do you feel about those those products right now? Yeah,

517
00:26:56,640 --> 00:26:59,679
Speaker 1: So I love this debate. I love this debate, and

518
00:26:59,680 --> 00:27:02,920
Speaker 1: I've been encouraging people to take out adjustable rate mortgages

519
00:27:03,040 --> 00:27:05,359
Speaker 1: since I started in two thousand and nine. And the

520
00:27:05,400 --> 00:27:10,760
Speaker 1: reason why is because of perspective. First of all, interest

521
00:27:10,840 --> 00:27:13,320
Speaker 1: rates have been coming down since the late nineteen eighties.

522
00:27:14,520 --> 00:27:17,360
Speaker 1: Literally it's been a forty year decline. And why is that.

523
00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:21,120
Speaker 1: It's because the world has gotten smaller. The federal reserve

524
00:27:21,160 --> 00:27:23,879
Speaker 1: boards around the country, central banks around the country have

525
00:27:24,040 --> 00:27:28,080
Speaker 1: become tighter, they've become more coordinated, and we better, We've

526
00:27:28,080 --> 00:27:32,400
Speaker 1: been able to better manufacture inflation. Further, with a smaller world,

527
00:27:32,760 --> 00:27:38,119
Speaker 1: you have input costs that have come down. Right, So China, India, Vietnam,

528
00:27:38,240 --> 00:27:41,800
Speaker 1: they're creating goods, They're creating goods and exporting it to

529
00:27:41,960 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: more developed countries and lowering the cost of goods. Right,

530
00:27:45,880 --> 00:27:48,840
Speaker 1: And this is all you're going to continue over time. Now,

531
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,720
Speaker 1: sure you we're gonna have um, you know, short term

532
00:27:51,840 --> 00:27:55,920
Speaker 1: spikes in inflation and therefore interest rates as we are

533
00:27:55,920 --> 00:27:59,280
Speaker 1: experiencing right now. But right now is a special situation.

534
00:27:59,560 --> 00:28:02,000
Speaker 1: You know, we've at war in Ukraine. Who would have thought,

535
00:28:02,040 --> 00:28:05,000
Speaker 1: you know, Russia would have invade Ukraine. We had COVID

536
00:28:05,080 --> 00:28:07,160
Speaker 1: pandemic which hopefully is not going to last for more

537
00:28:07,200 --> 00:28:10,840
Speaker 1: than five years. And we've had massive, massive amount of stimulus,

538
00:28:10,880 --> 00:28:14,439
Speaker 1: which obviously percolates through the system. But think about it,

539
00:28:14,480 --> 00:28:18,520
Speaker 1: if you are an arm holder, you're basically borrowing money

540
00:28:18,560 --> 00:28:20,360
Speaker 1: at the shorter end of the yield curve. And when

541
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:22,119
Speaker 1: you borrow at the shorter end of the yield curve,

542
00:28:22,280 --> 00:28:26,040
Speaker 1: the interest rate is lower. So the spread between let's

543
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,640
Speaker 1: say an average thirty year fixed rate mortgage and let's

544
00:28:28,640 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 1: say a seven one ARM might be like one and

545
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:34,639
Speaker 1: a half percent. So for seven years during that fixed

546
00:28:34,720 --> 00:28:37,560
Speaker 1: rate period, you're saving one and a half percent in

547
00:28:37,640 --> 00:28:40,640
Speaker 1: terms of interest cost for a year. So you're only

548
00:28:40,680 --> 00:28:46,800
Speaker 1: going to start losing seven years later after if the

549
00:28:46,880 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: thirty year fixed rate mortgage or a new rate mortgage

550
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:51,719
Speaker 1: is one and a half percent or higher. So, in

551
00:28:51,720 --> 00:28:55,520
Speaker 1: other words, let's say you did get an ARM, I'll

552
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:59,080
Speaker 1: just use my example. I got a seven one ARM

553
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,000
Speaker 1: at two point one two five because I bought another home. Then, right,

554
00:29:03,720 --> 00:29:06,479
Speaker 1: so am I quaking in my boots? I'm not quaking

555
00:29:06,480 --> 00:29:10,400
Speaker 1: in my boots because it doesn't reset until and if

556
00:29:10,440 --> 00:29:12,920
Speaker 1: it does reset, there's a limit to how much it

557
00:29:12,960 --> 00:29:15,440
Speaker 1: can reset. It's not like endless reset, right, It's like

558
00:29:15,800 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 1: two or three percent limit, and then it only resets

559
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:21,920
Speaker 1: at a limit a year after that. However, it's in

560
00:29:21,960 --> 00:29:26,600
Speaker 1: my opinion that inflation will ultimately moderate and therefore in

561
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:28,760
Speaker 1: st right, So I could easily see a scenario by

562
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:33,200
Speaker 1: three where inflation starts moderating because there's demand destruction. Right,

563
00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:36,880
Speaker 1: The higher prices go the less demand comes, and if

564
00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:42,040
Speaker 1: inflation starts rolling over, let's say in August, there's going

565
00:29:42,120 --> 00:29:44,560
Speaker 1: to be a decline in the bond yields and there's

566
00:29:44,600 --> 00:29:47,320
Speaker 1: gonna be a client in mortgage rates, and you're right

567
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:50,200
Speaker 1: back to long term forty year trend. And here's the

568
00:29:50,240 --> 00:29:53,320
Speaker 1: other thing, And sorry for blabbing around so much, but

569
00:29:53,760 --> 00:29:57,000
Speaker 1: it's interesting. This is good. But the average person, the

570
00:29:57,040 --> 00:30:00,640
Speaker 1: median home ownership duration was about at four and a

571
00:30:00,640 --> 00:30:03,120
Speaker 1: half years before the financial crisis in two thousand and

572
00:30:03,120 --> 00:30:07,360
Speaker 1: eight two thousand nine. Today, the average homeownership duration is

573
00:30:07,400 --> 00:30:10,920
Speaker 1: closer to ten and a half eleven years. Okay, so

574
00:30:11,000 --> 00:30:13,080
Speaker 1: it doesn't make sense to take out a thirty year

575
00:30:13,160 --> 00:30:16,640
Speaker 1: fixed rate mortgage and pay a higher rate if you're

576
00:30:16,680 --> 00:30:19,320
Speaker 1: only going to hold your property for ten or eleven years,

577
00:30:19,400 --> 00:30:22,160
Speaker 1: or hold onto that mortgage for ten or eleven years. Instead,

578
00:30:22,320 --> 00:30:26,560
Speaker 1: it's a much more optimal financial decision to match your

579
00:30:26,600 --> 00:30:30,280
Speaker 1: fixed rate duration to the length of ownership of your home.

580
00:30:30,760 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: So if it's ten years you plan to own it

581
00:30:33,280 --> 00:30:35,880
Speaker 1: before you sell it or pay off the mortgage, then

582
00:30:35,920 --> 00:30:38,400
Speaker 1: you should match it with a ten one arm. This

583
00:30:38,560 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 1: is something I've kind of come around on because I

584
00:30:40,520 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 1: used to be like, oh no, no no, you've got to

585
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:42,920
Speaker 1: do the fifteen year fix. You got to do the

586
00:30:42,960 --> 00:30:45,760
Speaker 1: thirty year fixed. But that, like you said, that assumes

587
00:30:46,120 --> 00:30:48,360
Speaker 1: that you're gonna be there for the next fifteen years,

588
00:30:48,360 --> 00:30:50,640
Speaker 1: in the next thirty years. And one thing I've realized

589
00:30:50,680 --> 00:30:54,400
Speaker 1: is that folks they like to move. There are opportunities

590
00:30:54,440 --> 00:30:56,400
Speaker 1: that draw them to different cities or two different parts

591
00:30:56,440 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: of the country, or to close closer to family for

592
00:30:58,640 --> 00:31:00,840
Speaker 1: just a desire for a big your or different house.

593
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:05,520
Speaker 1: Life changes. I mean, your your wealth now will be

594
00:31:05,560 --> 00:31:07,600
Speaker 1: different from your wealth twenty years from now or thirty

595
00:31:07,680 --> 00:31:10,440
Speaker 1: years from now. To be able to match your flexibility

596
00:31:10,520 --> 00:31:13,880
Speaker 1: is actually much smarter and so and but the reality

597
00:31:13,960 --> 00:31:18,800
Speaker 1: is ninety plus percent of mortgages are thirty or fixed mortgages.

598
00:31:19,120 --> 00:31:22,400
Speaker 1: It's something like five to our arms. And and I

599
00:31:22,720 --> 00:31:24,680
Speaker 1: get a lot of pushback from that. But if you

600
00:31:24,720 --> 00:31:27,040
Speaker 1: live your life and you observe other people living their lives,

601
00:31:27,080 --> 00:31:30,720
Speaker 1: you will notice change in their their homes over time.

602
00:31:31,280 --> 00:31:32,959
Speaker 1: And you just have to do the math. If you

603
00:31:33,040 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: ever have doubt, just run the scenarios on the break

604
00:31:36,880 --> 00:31:40,040
Speaker 1: even point. Because I'm I'm very happy, i I'm holding

605
00:31:40,080 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: an arm and The other thing is you're not stuck, right, Like,

606
00:31:43,080 --> 00:31:46,080
Speaker 1: let's say when my arm resets in two thousand seven,

607
00:31:46,680 --> 00:31:49,160
Speaker 1: I'm assuming I will have some more cash. I can

608
00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,480
Speaker 1: pay down principle when at a time comes so that

609
00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,280
Speaker 1: my payment is lower, or I could sell the property.

610
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,080
Speaker 1: I can do a lot of other things. So I

611
00:31:56,120 --> 00:32:00,080
Speaker 1: think the optionality of paying less and having flexibility it

612
00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:03,280
Speaker 1: is very valuable. That's true. Yeah, So let' let's talk

613
00:32:03,280 --> 00:32:05,400
Speaker 1: about a different kind of debt, Sam, because you say

614
00:32:05,440 --> 00:32:08,320
Speaker 1: that most of us get into debt because we want

615
00:32:08,320 --> 00:32:11,000
Speaker 1: to live a lifestyle that we don't deserve. So can

616
00:32:11,000 --> 00:32:13,880
Speaker 1: you explain what you mean by this? And how does

617
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:18,560
Speaker 1: debt factor into someone's ability to achieve financial independence? Yeah,

618
00:32:18,600 --> 00:32:21,320
Speaker 1: if you think about how we consumed and purchased goods

619
00:32:21,800 --> 00:32:24,280
Speaker 1: hundreds of years ago, just a hundred years ago, we

620
00:32:24,360 --> 00:32:28,200
Speaker 1: pay mostly cash because the debt markets weren't built out yet.

621
00:32:28,840 --> 00:32:31,520
Speaker 1: But very smart and wise people have been able to

622
00:32:31,560 --> 00:32:35,320
Speaker 1: recognize that we're greedy. We want things now, and we

623
00:32:35,400 --> 00:32:37,160
Speaker 1: don't want to you know, we want to go straight

624
00:32:37,200 --> 00:32:39,600
Speaker 1: to the corner office without putting in our dues. And

625
00:32:39,640 --> 00:32:43,040
Speaker 1: that's just human nature, right. So we've created credit cards,

626
00:32:43,120 --> 00:32:46,440
Speaker 1: pay day loans by now pay later to get people

627
00:32:46,520 --> 00:32:50,360
Speaker 1: to get what they want what without having to be

628
00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:53,479
Speaker 1: able to afford, you know, whatever they want in full value.

629
00:32:54,200 --> 00:32:57,480
Speaker 1: And so I think getting into debt is something that

630
00:32:57,800 --> 00:33:00,560
Speaker 1: UM people really need to get out of, especially it's

631
00:33:00,560 --> 00:33:03,640
Speaker 1: consumer debt. If you have credit card debt, revolving credit

632
00:33:03,640 --> 00:33:07,640
Speaker 1: card debt, the average illustrated something like SEV which is

633
00:33:07,960 --> 00:33:10,880
Speaker 1: seven to eight percent higher than the average SMP five

634
00:33:11,200 --> 00:33:15,800
Speaker 1: return over since and it is also higher than the

635
00:33:15,840 --> 00:33:19,240
Speaker 1: average return UH. The illustraus Warren Buffett has been able

636
00:33:19,240 --> 00:33:21,720
Speaker 1: to generate in his career and he's one of the

637
00:33:21,760 --> 00:33:25,200
Speaker 1: top ten richest people in the world. And so if

638
00:33:25,200 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: you have this revolving credit card debt or consumer debt

639
00:33:27,880 --> 00:33:30,719
Speaker 1: and you're buying things that don't have a chance of

640
00:33:30,760 --> 00:33:34,480
Speaker 1: appreciating and value, I think you're doing yourself a disservice.

641
00:33:34,520 --> 00:33:36,280
Speaker 1: So you have to ask yourself how much do you

642
00:33:36,320 --> 00:33:38,240
Speaker 1: really want and you want to do you want to

643
00:33:38,280 --> 00:33:40,200
Speaker 1: get rich or do you want to make the lender

644
00:33:40,360 --> 00:33:43,600
Speaker 1: yet rich. That's the mindset. And the other thing UM

645
00:33:43,640 --> 00:33:46,440
Speaker 1: I think you're asking about is you know, debt and investing.

646
00:33:46,520 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 1: So many of us have debt, but we also want

647
00:33:50,680 --> 00:33:53,720
Speaker 1: to invest. So I have a framework called the financial

648
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,160
Speaker 1: Samurai debt and investment ratio, which basically states, if you

649
00:33:58,160 --> 00:34:01,360
Speaker 1: have debt and you also want to invest, you should

650
00:34:01,480 --> 00:34:05,040
Speaker 1: use that debt interest rate as a barometer for what

651
00:34:05,200 --> 00:34:07,239
Speaker 1: percentage of your monthly cash flo you're going to use

652
00:34:07,240 --> 00:34:09,160
Speaker 1: to pay down that debt. So, in other words, if

653
00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:13,160
Speaker 1: you have debt at seven, you multiply that by ten

654
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:17,239
Speaker 1: to get seventy, so you would take sevent of your

655
00:34:17,239 --> 00:34:21,680
Speaker 1: monthly cash flow to pay down debt and then to invest.

656
00:34:22,239 --> 00:34:25,399
Speaker 1: So this way you're always winning and you're always hedged. Now,

657
00:34:25,440 --> 00:34:29,680
Speaker 1: after ten percent, which is also the SPI historical average return,

658
00:34:30,200 --> 00:34:34,120
Speaker 1: you would allocate one of your casual to paying off

659
00:34:34,120 --> 00:34:37,520
Speaker 1: that debt because you can't really really launch if you're

660
00:34:37,520 --> 00:34:42,360
Speaker 1: getting dragged down by ten plus percent debt interest rates. Yeah,

661
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:45,000
Speaker 1: now that makes sense. And really the only caveat to that,

662
00:34:45,080 --> 00:34:47,239
Speaker 1: I'm sure you agree is if you're getting some sort

663
00:34:47,239 --> 00:34:49,960
Speaker 1: of company match on some of those four one dollars

664
00:34:50,040 --> 00:34:52,839
Speaker 1: right where you might want to avoid paying off something

665
00:34:52,880 --> 00:34:54,879
Speaker 1: it's like eight or nine percent interest rate in order

666
00:34:54,920 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 1: to get that max that match out before you start

667
00:34:57,200 --> 00:34:59,600
Speaker 1: attacking that thing like gangbusters, right, I mean the company

668
00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:02,840
Speaker 1: matches a hundred percent return, so yes, definitely fulfilled that

669
00:35:04,080 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: return up to the match maximum and then start paying

670
00:35:08,239 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: down that debt. I mean, you want to change your

671
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,919
Speaker 1: mindset to say, well, what is the return on my debt?

672
00:35:12,920 --> 00:35:15,640
Speaker 1: Pay down? It's obviously the interest rate that you don't

673
00:35:15,640 --> 00:35:17,920
Speaker 1: have to pay. Yeah, all right, we want to talk

674
00:35:17,920 --> 00:35:20,200
Speaker 1: about some career stuff with you, Sam, including you know,

675
00:35:20,239 --> 00:35:22,680
Speaker 1: one of the coolest things. I feel like I read

676
00:35:22,680 --> 00:35:26,080
Speaker 1: this on Financial Samurai years ago, and uh if for

677
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:28,000
Speaker 1: some reason, it sticks in my mind more than anything

678
00:35:28,000 --> 00:35:30,359
Speaker 1: else when it comes to like the content that you've

679
00:35:30,360 --> 00:35:32,520
Speaker 1: put out, and it's about basically getting paid to walk

680
00:35:32,520 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 1: away from your job. So we'll talk about career advice

681
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 1: that you've got and more right after this. All right,

682
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:50,480
Speaker 1: we are back talking with Sam Dogan and Sam, we're

683
00:35:50,480 --> 00:35:52,760
Speaker 1: gonna spend this last section talking a good bit about

684
00:35:52,920 --> 00:35:56,640
Speaker 1: career advice. We're gonna talk about how you were able

685
00:35:56,640 --> 00:35:59,160
Speaker 1: to engineer a layoff before we dive into that. Can

686
00:35:59,200 --> 00:36:01,200
Speaker 1: you share the story of actually about how you got

687
00:36:01,239 --> 00:36:04,160
Speaker 1: your first job. You you tell a pretty good story

688
00:36:04,160 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: in the book about yeah, scoring that that first position

689
00:36:07,040 --> 00:36:10,200
Speaker 1: there at Goldman Sacks and how it wasn't necessarily about grades,

690
00:36:10,600 --> 00:36:13,960
Speaker 1: but yeah, share how that came to be. So it

691
00:36:14,040 --> 00:36:16,720
Speaker 1: all came about because there was a career fair in Washington,

692
00:36:16,800 --> 00:36:20,080
Speaker 1: d C. And Williamsburg, Virginia, where the College of William

693
00:36:20,080 --> 00:36:22,560
Speaker 1: and Mary Is is about a two and a half

694
00:36:22,560 --> 00:36:26,319
Speaker 1: hour drive south or north to Washington, d C. And

695
00:36:26,360 --> 00:36:30,800
Speaker 1: so I signed up for a career fair and Goldman

696
00:36:30,880 --> 00:36:34,480
Speaker 1: Sachs said they wanted to to see me. I was like, okay,

697
00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:37,879
Speaker 1: sounds good, and so I woke up at five thirty

698
00:36:37,960 --> 00:36:40,239
Speaker 1: am to get on a bus at six am from

699
00:36:40,239 --> 00:36:44,440
Speaker 1: Williamsburg to d C. And nobody showed up, and supposedly

700
00:36:44,719 --> 00:36:47,920
Speaker 1: twenty five to thirty people signed up to go go

701
00:36:48,040 --> 00:36:50,560
Speaker 1: on this bus to go to d C. And so

702
00:36:50,600 --> 00:36:53,200
Speaker 1: after about forty five minutes, the driver said, you know what,

703
00:36:53,320 --> 00:36:57,080
Speaker 1: screw this, nobody's showing up. Let's go change vehicles. So

704
00:36:57,160 --> 00:36:59,879
Speaker 1: he drove me in the bus to some random shack

705
00:37:00,040 --> 00:37:03,919
Speaker 1: in Williamsburg and out popped a black Lincoln town car.

706
00:37:04,680 --> 00:37:07,520
Speaker 1: And then so he drove me like a shave limo

707
00:37:07,719 --> 00:37:09,279
Speaker 1: for two and a half hours to the career fair,

708
00:37:10,520 --> 00:37:12,759
Speaker 1: and I had a lot of series of tough interviews

709
00:37:13,280 --> 00:37:15,000
Speaker 1: and then I was invited to super Day where there

710
00:37:15,000 --> 00:37:18,400
Speaker 1: were twelve interviews that one day, and I thought, all right,

711
00:37:18,800 --> 00:37:21,799
Speaker 1: twelve interviews, let's rock, let's do it. You know, you

712
00:37:21,920 --> 00:37:24,040
Speaker 1: drink your caffeine and you go. And I felt great

713
00:37:24,080 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: afterwards and they said, oh, thanks for your interviews, let's

714
00:37:27,120 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 1: come back. So all told, I ended u up doing.

715
00:37:30,640 --> 00:37:34,480
Speaker 1: I believe it was fifty five interviews over seven rounds

716
00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 1: to get my first job in New York City, and

717
00:37:36,520 --> 00:37:39,960
Speaker 1: the reason why it took so long is most likely

718
00:37:40,080 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: because I was a poor candidate. You know, they couldn't

719
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:44,600
Speaker 1: fit me in the right bucket. You know. I was

720
00:37:44,680 --> 00:37:48,080
Speaker 1: interviewing on the on the US trading floor and then

721
00:37:48,120 --> 00:37:50,200
Speaker 1: the options derived of desk they made me read a

722
00:37:50,280 --> 00:37:53,960
Speaker 1: thousand page book called Options as a Strategic Investment Way.

723
00:37:54,000 --> 00:37:55,759
Speaker 1: I think it was Nate McMillan, and then they asked

724
00:37:55,800 --> 00:37:58,840
Speaker 1: me one question about what is a butterfly spread? So

725
00:37:59,480 --> 00:38:02,200
Speaker 1: that was it was like the gauntlet and so but

726
00:38:02,320 --> 00:38:04,680
Speaker 1: after you know, like about the fourth round, you're like, okay,

727
00:38:04,719 --> 00:38:06,360
Speaker 1: if they're not gonna hire me, and that's ridiculous. I

728
00:38:06,360 --> 00:38:10,120
Speaker 1: started feeling confident and so they finally hired me, and

729
00:38:10,160 --> 00:38:11,840
Speaker 1: then then I had to go through the mean Grinder

730
00:38:11,840 --> 00:38:13,880
Speaker 1: again about getting into Ork at five thirty and then

731
00:38:13,920 --> 00:38:16,480
Speaker 1: realizing is this what my life is going to be? Yeah,

732
00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:21,360
Speaker 1: well it's fascinating to that just your basically your pursuit

733
00:38:21,520 --> 00:38:23,560
Speaker 1: of that job, your work ethic, your your willingness to

734
00:38:23,560 --> 00:38:26,120
Speaker 1: show up when when nobody else did it set you

735
00:38:26,160 --> 00:38:29,759
Speaker 1: apart in a way that maybe you didn't go to

736
00:38:29,800 --> 00:38:32,279
Speaker 1: one of the schools that they typically mine. It was

737
00:38:32,320 --> 00:38:33,919
Speaker 1: not a target school at all. I mean, you gotta

738
00:38:33,960 --> 00:38:37,360
Speaker 1: show up, folks. Showing up, I really is like fifty

739
00:38:37,480 --> 00:38:40,399
Speaker 1: plus percent of the battle. You know. I promised myself

740
00:38:40,480 --> 00:38:43,279
Speaker 1: in two thousand and nine I would write publish a

741
00:38:43,280 --> 00:38:45,560
Speaker 1: new post three times a week for ten years to

742
00:38:45,680 --> 00:38:50,000
Speaker 1: see what would happen, because I I strongly felt plus

743
00:38:50,000 --> 00:38:53,799
Speaker 1: probability greater that something good would happen if that were

744
00:38:53,840 --> 00:38:55,879
Speaker 1: to come true. And so it's now it's been over

745
00:38:55,920 --> 00:38:58,440
Speaker 1: thirteen years, and I'm just going to continue because if

746
00:38:58,480 --> 00:39:01,320
Speaker 1: you can speak forever, you can write forever. There's so

747
00:39:01,400 --> 00:39:04,799
Speaker 1: much interesting stuff to talk about every day. Yeah. Well,

748
00:39:05,000 --> 00:39:06,319
Speaker 1: one of the things you talking about in the book too,

749
00:39:06,320 --> 00:39:08,120
Speaker 1: is you talk about how not many folks pick a

750
00:39:08,160 --> 00:39:11,160
Speaker 1: place to live based on income potential. And I love

751
00:39:11,200 --> 00:39:13,319
Speaker 1: that you actually dedicated a whole chapter to it in

752
00:39:13,320 --> 00:39:16,680
Speaker 1: your new book. But like, salaries in coastal cities are

753
00:39:16,719 --> 00:39:20,080
Speaker 1: often higher, but it's also much cheaper to live in

754
00:39:20,160 --> 00:39:23,200
Speaker 1: like the American heartland. So so how does someone decide

755
00:39:23,320 --> 00:39:26,759
Speaker 1: that that conundrum of where to live? And you know,

756
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,320
Speaker 1: when it comes to job opportunities. Fortunately, now I guess

757
00:39:29,320 --> 00:39:31,120
Speaker 1: maybe it's a little bit easier with more work from

758
00:39:31,160 --> 00:39:33,640
Speaker 1: home opportunities. But how do you think about that? So

759
00:39:33,800 --> 00:39:37,480
Speaker 1: when you first start off, you're learning instead of earning,

760
00:39:37,560 --> 00:39:41,120
Speaker 1: and eventually you're gonna start earning. But when you first off,

761
00:39:41,160 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 1: if you don't have that much knowledge, you don't have

762
00:39:42,719 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: that much experience by definition, So you should go where

763
00:39:46,440 --> 00:39:50,040
Speaker 1: the job opportunity, the salary is the highest, the greatest,

764
00:39:50,520 --> 00:39:53,760
Speaker 1: And even if that means living in a studio apartment

765
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:56,359
Speaker 1: with two other people in New York City because it's

766
00:39:56,400 --> 00:40:00,279
Speaker 1: so expensive, that's where you should go. Again, we're talking

767
00:40:00,280 --> 00:40:04,839
Speaker 1: about growing income versus saving money to generate wealth. Because look,

768
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:08,040
Speaker 1: so many people talk about San Francisco and New York

769
00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,840
Speaker 1: City is they're so expensive, how do people afford to

770
00:40:10,840 --> 00:40:14,960
Speaker 1: live there? But it's it's it's economics, folks. You can't

771
00:40:15,000 --> 00:40:17,560
Speaker 1: talk about, you know, a one point eight million dollar

772
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:21,440
Speaker 1: medium price home without talking about the median household income

773
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:24,640
Speaker 1: of the buyers of those homes. Right, you have to

774
00:40:24,680 --> 00:40:27,759
Speaker 1: look at both sides of the equation, and because eventually,

775
00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:32,200
Speaker 1: eventually your income, well this is the whole will will

776
00:40:32,239 --> 00:40:35,480
Speaker 1: skyrocket far beyond the cost of living. And this is

777
00:40:35,480 --> 00:40:37,640
Speaker 1: what people don't tell you who have been able to

778
00:40:37,760 --> 00:40:41,200
Speaker 1: generate a lot of wealth in the more expensive places. Yes,

779
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:43,200
Speaker 1: it costs a lot to live, to buy home, to

780
00:40:43,239 --> 00:40:45,720
Speaker 1: send your kids to school, whatever, but that income growth

781
00:40:45,760 --> 00:40:49,279
Speaker 1: is huge. People are making two thousand dollars right out

782
00:40:49,320 --> 00:40:52,440
Speaker 1: of school working at Facebook, Google, Apple, and by the

783
00:40:52,480 --> 00:40:55,880
Speaker 1: time they're thirty they're making four hundred thousand. And then

784
00:40:55,920 --> 00:40:59,000
Speaker 1: if two people shack up, they're making seven eight hundred

785
00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,959
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. So suddenly, maybe that one point a million

786
00:41:01,960 --> 00:41:05,120
Speaker 1: dollar home on a seven thousand dollar household income isn't

787
00:41:05,160 --> 00:41:07,839
Speaker 1: that expensive. So it's it's important to look at it

788
00:41:07,880 --> 00:41:11,960
Speaker 1: that way. Now, I love the heartland because of the

789
00:41:12,000 --> 00:41:15,960
Speaker 1: opportunity to invest as a real estate investor. Post COVID.

790
00:41:16,160 --> 00:41:20,640
Speaker 1: Now we're seeing much more segregation spreading out of America,

791
00:41:21,000 --> 00:41:23,600
Speaker 1: where you can work from home, you can go. So

792
00:41:23,920 --> 00:41:27,080
Speaker 1: if you are in a relatively senior position, people trust

793
00:41:27,160 --> 00:41:29,319
Speaker 1: you and they know you're going to do your job.

794
00:41:29,840 --> 00:41:33,239
Speaker 1: I would take advantage of, you know, relocation closer to

795
00:41:33,239 --> 00:41:35,200
Speaker 1: where your family is. Maybe you can save some money,

796
00:41:35,440 --> 00:41:39,040
Speaker 1: have a better lifestyle. Um that is that makes tons

797
00:41:39,040 --> 00:41:41,880
Speaker 1: of sense. However, here's the one thing a lot of

798
00:41:41,920 --> 00:41:44,520
Speaker 1: people again starting on the career of twenties and thirties,

799
00:41:44,600 --> 00:41:48,960
Speaker 1: need to be cautious about because out of sight is

800
00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:52,280
Speaker 1: often out of mind. So if you are that person

801
00:41:52,280 --> 00:41:56,200
Speaker 1: who wants to get promoted and paid and go places

802
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,759
Speaker 1: and you're earlier on your financial journey, if you're out

803
00:41:59,160 --> 00:42:03,399
Speaker 1: out of sight physically in a satellite office, you might

804
00:42:03,480 --> 00:42:06,680
Speaker 1: be missing out on those in person opportunities. And when

805
00:42:06,680 --> 00:42:09,319
Speaker 1: it comes time to lay people off, it's so much

806
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,520
Speaker 1: easier to lay people off who you don't see often,

807
00:42:12,840 --> 00:42:15,200
Speaker 1: So please be aware of that. Also when it comes

808
00:42:15,200 --> 00:42:17,680
Speaker 1: time to get a raise, like you probably aren't going

809
00:42:17,719 --> 00:42:19,520
Speaker 1: to be the first person when it comes to a

810
00:42:19,560 --> 00:42:22,960
Speaker 1: promotional raise on your manager's mind. Yeah, let's imagine a

811
00:42:23,000 --> 00:42:25,920
Speaker 1: scenario where there's a conference room, you know it's it's

812
00:42:26,000 --> 00:42:29,000
Speaker 1: hybrid work from home whatever. There's like five people in

813
00:42:29,160 --> 00:42:33,080
Speaker 1: the room, and then there's five people dialing in and

814
00:42:33,080 --> 00:42:36,680
Speaker 1: you see them on TV. I will promise you that

815
00:42:36,760 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: the relationships in that office are going to be stronger,

816
00:42:40,520 --> 00:42:43,200
Speaker 1: and the people who are dialing it in are probably

817
00:42:43,200 --> 00:42:45,000
Speaker 1: not going to be called on as much to participate.

818
00:42:45,200 --> 00:42:47,719
Speaker 1: And this is based on my talks. I've already given

819
00:42:47,760 --> 00:42:51,520
Speaker 1: talks at Google, Yelp, some other large firms and they're

820
00:42:51,520 --> 00:42:54,320
Speaker 1: talking about this dynamic now. So it depends on where

821
00:42:54,360 --> 00:42:56,040
Speaker 1: you are in your career too, and how much you

822
00:42:56,080 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 1: want it. Totally agree. Yeah, So, Sam, can we talk

823
00:42:58,719 --> 00:43:02,759
Speaker 1: about your experience negotiating a severance package because you basically

824
00:43:03,239 --> 00:43:06,440
Speaker 1: got paid handsomely to leave your job when you're itching

825
00:43:06,600 --> 00:43:09,920
Speaker 1: to leave anyway. Yeah, share how that went down please. Yeah. So,

826
00:43:10,480 --> 00:43:14,000
Speaker 1: one of my biggest failures as a financial writer and

827
00:43:14,040 --> 00:43:17,120
Speaker 1: blogger is that I haven't been able to create a

828
00:43:17,160 --> 00:43:20,440
Speaker 1: movement where if you're going to quit your job anyway

829
00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 1: or retire early anyway, you should try to negotiate a

830
00:43:24,640 --> 00:43:27,719
Speaker 1: severance because what's the downside. You're gonna leave anyway, your

831
00:43:27,719 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: two week notice, you're just gone. Why not create a

832
00:43:31,160 --> 00:43:34,400
Speaker 1: win win scenario where you try to get a severance

833
00:43:34,440 --> 00:43:38,000
Speaker 1: based on your good work, your good relationships while you

834
00:43:38,080 --> 00:43:42,279
Speaker 1: help the firm find your replacement and you train your replacement.

835
00:43:42,320 --> 00:43:44,480
Speaker 1: Because I was a manager once, and every manager will

836
00:43:44,520 --> 00:43:47,719
Speaker 1: agree that losing people who have done decent work or

837
00:43:47,719 --> 00:43:50,719
Speaker 1: even just social work is really painful, especially in this

838
00:43:50,840 --> 00:43:56,239
Speaker 1: market tight labor market. Right. So my my story is essentially,

839
00:43:56,320 --> 00:43:59,759
Speaker 1: in two thousand eleven, I was really burned out from

840
00:43:59,800 --> 00:44:03,680
Speaker 1: finance financial crisis. You know, the correlation with effort and

841
00:44:03,719 --> 00:44:07,680
Speaker 1: reward was no longer there, and so I really wanted

842
00:44:07,680 --> 00:44:09,920
Speaker 1: to get the hell out of finance. You know, it's

843
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:12,800
Speaker 1: just enough, twelve years enough, and I really liked financial

844
00:44:12,840 --> 00:44:15,760
Speaker 1: Samurai and just writing and connecting with people online. So

845
00:44:16,120 --> 00:44:19,920
Speaker 1: after I got a Bagel bonus in twenty eleven, I

846
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:22,200
Speaker 1: was like, you know what, this is really not worth

847
00:44:22,200 --> 00:44:25,120
Speaker 1: it anymore. I got to find a way out. And

848
00:44:25,200 --> 00:44:28,839
Speaker 1: I recognized from you know, basically we were going through

849
00:44:28,920 --> 00:44:31,879
Speaker 1: like three to five rounds of layouts almost every year

850
00:44:31,880 --> 00:44:34,640
Speaker 1: for a couple of years. I recognized that people were

851
00:44:34,680 --> 00:44:38,719
Speaker 1: getting laid off with pretty decent servance packages, you know,

852
00:44:38,760 --> 00:44:41,399
Speaker 1: based on two to three they were getting paid two

853
00:44:41,440 --> 00:44:44,640
Speaker 1: to let's see, two to three weeks of pay for

854
00:44:44,719 --> 00:44:48,520
Speaker 1: every year worked. And also they were getting their deferred

855
00:44:48,560 --> 00:44:52,319
Speaker 1: cash and stock compensation. So in finance, there was more

856
00:44:52,320 --> 00:44:55,120
Speaker 1: senior you rise, the more of your compensation, your your

857
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 1: arin bonus will be in deferred cash and stock. So

858
00:44:57,680 --> 00:44:59,799
Speaker 1: it's like a golden cancuff. So you you can never

859
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:03,360
Speaker 1: eve right because there's no like retirement part of your pensions.

860
00:45:03,840 --> 00:45:06,160
Speaker 1: And so if you quit your job in finance, just

861
00:45:06,200 --> 00:45:08,040
Speaker 1: like if you quit your job in tech or any

862
00:45:08,120 --> 00:45:12,680
Speaker 1: industry that provides deferred compensation, you tend to lose it all.

863
00:45:13,360 --> 00:45:16,000
Speaker 1: And so after being in my one firm for eleven years,

864
00:45:16,040 --> 00:45:20,799
Speaker 1: I had three years of deferred compensation and generally I

865
00:45:20,880 --> 00:45:25,120
Speaker 1: got paid thirty five percent of my total compensation in

866
00:45:25,120 --> 00:45:26,960
Speaker 1: deferred compensation. So in other words, I had like a

867
00:45:27,040 --> 00:45:30,360
Speaker 1: year of deferred a year of income that I was

868
00:45:30,400 --> 00:45:32,000
Speaker 1: just gonna lose, and that was in the hundreds of

869
00:45:32,000 --> 00:45:35,960
Speaker 1: thousands of dollars. And not only that, the company forced

870
00:45:36,040 --> 00:45:38,799
Speaker 1: all employees to invest a portion of their bonus in

871
00:45:38,880 --> 00:45:43,640
Speaker 1: the toxic assets of all these mortgage backed securities to

872
00:45:43,719 --> 00:45:46,000
Speaker 1: get that off the company balance sheet, and which was

873
00:45:46,040 --> 00:45:47,960
Speaker 1: I think a really smart and wise move that we

874
00:45:48,000 --> 00:45:51,399
Speaker 1: all shared the pain. But those investments in turned out

875
00:45:51,400 --> 00:45:54,239
Speaker 1: to be multi multi baggers and if I left that,

876
00:45:54,840 --> 00:45:57,440
Speaker 1: I would have lost that as well. And so the

877
00:45:57,440 --> 00:46:00,760
Speaker 1: bottom line was I was able to to my manager

878
00:46:01,080 --> 00:46:02,919
Speaker 1: and talk to my HR person and say, hey, look,

879
00:46:03,760 --> 00:46:06,560
Speaker 1: you know these are tough times right now, and I've

880
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:10,000
Speaker 1: hired my replacement. I'll do whatever it takes to train

881
00:46:10,120 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 1: him make the transition as seamless as possible, if you

882
00:46:14,600 --> 00:46:18,960
Speaker 1: can reward me with all my deferred compensation and a severance.

883
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,400
Speaker 1: And it took about a month of going back and forth,

884
00:46:21,719 --> 00:46:25,640
Speaker 1: and ultimately I convinced them to let me go and

885
00:46:25,680 --> 00:46:28,319
Speaker 1: pay me out. So it's exactly the opposite of trying

886
00:46:28,320 --> 00:46:31,799
Speaker 1: to convince someone to hire you and pay and promote you.

887
00:46:33,040 --> 00:46:36,160
Speaker 1: But it's actually the same because it's actually about understanding

888
00:46:36,480 --> 00:46:38,640
Speaker 1: what the other side needs. The other side, you know,

889
00:46:38,760 --> 00:46:41,279
Speaker 1: they would like to cut the salary and conversation of

890
00:46:41,280 --> 00:46:44,200
Speaker 1: a director like myself whose heart was no longer in it,

891
00:46:44,719 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 1: to promote and pay less a younger person, and then

892
00:46:49,000 --> 00:46:51,160
Speaker 1: to move on. So it was it was great win

893
00:46:51,160 --> 00:46:54,200
Speaker 1: win situation, and it's better. It's just easier emotionally to

894
00:46:54,200 --> 00:46:56,759
Speaker 1: act somebody who who wants to leave than to like

895
00:46:56,840 --> 00:47:00,120
Speaker 1: find somebody who's like yes, it's the hardest thing to it.

896
00:47:00,120 --> 00:47:02,359
Speaker 1: It's one of the hardest things to lay people off.

897
00:47:02,719 --> 00:47:05,879
Speaker 1: And if someone can volunteer to get laid off when

898
00:47:05,920 --> 00:47:08,520
Speaker 1: you have to lay someone off anyway, it is a

899
00:47:08,600 --> 00:47:12,440
Speaker 1: huge relief on the managers, uh, Psyche. And so I

900
00:47:12,520 --> 00:47:14,759
Speaker 1: really hope that more people if they're going to leave

901
00:47:14,800 --> 00:47:17,440
Speaker 1: their job anyway. You know, I think actually giving a

902
00:47:17,440 --> 00:47:20,560
Speaker 1: two week notice is kind of cruel because what are

903
00:47:20,560 --> 00:47:23,160
Speaker 1: the chances that you know, your boss, your colleagues are

904
00:47:23,160 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 1: going to find your replacement within two weeks that's good,

905
00:47:26,080 --> 00:47:27,960
Speaker 1: and you know your colleague is gonna be left holding

906
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:29,279
Speaker 1: the bag where they got to do all the work.

907
00:47:29,400 --> 00:47:32,280
Speaker 1: So my transition out took a couple of months because

908
00:47:32,280 --> 00:47:35,560
Speaker 1: I was trying to help make things smooth. Yeah, I

909
00:47:35,640 --> 00:47:37,320
Speaker 1: like that. One. One of the other things you mentioned

910
00:47:37,360 --> 00:47:39,400
Speaker 1: briefly in the book too, is that there are additional

911
00:47:39,400 --> 00:47:41,560
Speaker 1: benefits to getting laid off as opposed to quitting or

912
00:47:41,560 --> 00:47:46,240
Speaker 1: getting fired, whether it's governmental benefits, U and so cobra,

913
00:47:46,640 --> 00:47:48,840
Speaker 1: things like that. So those are important things to think about.

914
00:47:48,840 --> 00:47:51,280
Speaker 1: But I guess I want to ask you about this

915
00:47:51,280 --> 00:47:54,640
Speaker 1: this situation because you were in a kind of an

916
00:47:54,680 --> 00:47:58,560
Speaker 1: interesting job that most people they might think Okay, cool,

917
00:47:58,600 --> 00:48:00,759
Speaker 1: maybe this works in high finance, But isn't that sort

918
00:48:00,800 --> 00:48:03,719
Speaker 1: of an outlier scenario? U? Yeah, what would you say

919
00:48:03,719 --> 00:48:06,400
Speaker 1: to that person and can they make this a reality

920
00:48:06,480 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 1: in their kind of everyday sort of work wherever wherever

921
00:48:09,960 --> 00:48:14,440
Speaker 1: they're at. So I would say anybody who has uh

922
00:48:14,600 --> 00:48:18,080
Speaker 1: the courage to confront their manager or hi person to

923
00:48:18,080 --> 00:48:20,719
Speaker 1: try to get laid off is an outlier. But I

924
00:48:20,760 --> 00:48:22,920
Speaker 1: think we're all outliers if we want to do something

925
00:48:22,960 --> 00:48:27,640
Speaker 1: different or special. I would say everybody has the ability

926
00:48:27,680 --> 00:48:32,840
Speaker 1: to negotiate a severance because everybody has emotions, everybody has needs.

927
00:48:34,000 --> 00:48:37,520
Speaker 1: Paying a serverance is voluntary. The warn Act pay, which

928
00:48:37,560 --> 00:48:41,320
Speaker 1: a lot of people confuse with a servants, is actually law.

929
00:48:41,560 --> 00:48:44,719
Speaker 1: If you're a big company, you have to give severance

930
00:48:44,719 --> 00:48:47,040
Speaker 1: in the form of warn Act pay, which is mandatory

931
00:48:47,160 --> 00:48:51,080
Speaker 1: one to three months of pay. A severance is voluntary.

932
00:48:51,120 --> 00:48:55,280
Speaker 1: So let's just put I don't know myself as an example,

933
00:48:55,360 --> 00:48:57,480
Speaker 1: I have a hard working employee. I'm a private company.

934
00:48:57,520 --> 00:48:59,520
Speaker 1: I don't have to pay a severance. Let's have a

935
00:48:59,600 --> 00:49:03,600
Speaker 1: great employee five years just added so much value, so,

936
00:49:03,800 --> 00:49:07,560
Speaker 1: you know, always nice, great, friendly to work with, easy,

937
00:49:07,719 --> 00:49:09,799
Speaker 1: and they say, Sam, you know I I gotta move on.

938
00:49:09,800 --> 00:49:12,920
Speaker 1: I got another opportunity. You know, thanks so much. Is

939
00:49:12,960 --> 00:49:15,400
Speaker 1: there anything I can do? Um, you know, maybe get

940
00:49:15,400 --> 00:49:17,479
Speaker 1: a severance or something. It's like a going away gift.

941
00:49:18,040 --> 00:49:20,120
Speaker 1: If I like that person and they try to help

942
00:49:20,120 --> 00:49:23,279
Speaker 1: me find their replacement, I'm happily giving them a severance, because,

943
00:49:23,320 --> 00:49:25,680
Speaker 1: if you think about it from a corporation's point of view,

944
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:28,600
Speaker 1: a severance the amount is not huge in terms of

945
00:49:28,640 --> 00:49:31,640
Speaker 1: the overall earnings, but the good will is huge. It's

946
00:49:31,680 --> 00:49:34,239
Speaker 1: about treating people well so that it can attract more

947
00:49:34,280 --> 00:49:36,719
Speaker 1: people in the future. If you're like a big employee.

948
00:49:36,719 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: One of the biggest actually for all companies, one of

949
00:49:39,800 --> 00:49:43,680
Speaker 1: the biggest fears is gaining a bad reputation as a

950
00:49:43,719 --> 00:49:46,360
Speaker 1: bad place to work, as a place where they don't

951
00:49:46,480 --> 00:49:50,320
Speaker 1: treat their employees with respect, as disaster with social media

952
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:52,279
Speaker 1: and everything, you know, I mean, if I want it,

953
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:54,359
Speaker 1: I can blow people left and right with my platform, right,

954
00:49:54,360 --> 00:49:56,760
Speaker 1: I mean, that's you don't want to do that, but frankly,

955
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: anybody can do that right now. So it's really about

956
00:49:59,719 --> 00:50:04,439
Speaker 1: create um that that collegiate atmosphere, collegial atmosphere and creating

957
00:50:04,480 --> 00:50:07,080
Speaker 1: win wins with situations and anybody can do it in

958
00:50:07,160 --> 00:50:09,400
Speaker 1: any kind of job setting. It might not be a

959
00:50:09,440 --> 00:50:12,360
Speaker 1: specifically like a severance. I mean it could be you

960
00:50:12,440 --> 00:50:15,120
Speaker 1: know what you can how about you work four hours

961
00:50:15,120 --> 00:50:17,480
Speaker 1: a day for the next three months. That's kind of

962
00:50:17,480 --> 00:50:20,239
Speaker 1: like getting double pay for three months. Or how about

963
00:50:20,360 --> 00:50:23,440
Speaker 1: just come in two days a week and you know,

964
00:50:23,520 --> 00:50:25,239
Speaker 1: just do hybrid two days a week and then take

965
00:50:25,280 --> 00:50:27,920
Speaker 1: Friday off. You get three day weekend every every weekend

966
00:50:27,960 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 1: for one year. That's kind of like a severance because

967
00:50:30,719 --> 00:50:34,320
Speaker 1: it's about creating matching a scenario of demand and supply

968
00:50:34,360 --> 00:50:36,400
Speaker 1: as well. Yes, not black or white. There are a

969
00:50:36,440 --> 00:50:39,080
Speaker 1: lot of options out there, not black or white. Everything.

970
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,919
Speaker 1: Every problem is there, there's a solution, there's a more

971
00:50:42,960 --> 00:50:45,560
Speaker 1: optical solution where both sides can win. And that's what

972
00:50:45,600 --> 00:50:48,040
Speaker 1: I encourage people to do is always think about the

973
00:50:48,080 --> 00:50:50,880
Speaker 1: other side so you can make a better situation for yourself,

974
00:50:51,520 --> 00:50:54,240
Speaker 1: totally make it win win for for both parties involved.

975
00:50:54,400 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: With all the talk about severance, Sam, did you happen

976
00:50:56,360 --> 00:50:59,640
Speaker 1: to watch the TV show Severance on Apple TV? Yeah,

977
00:50:59,680 --> 00:51:03,040
Speaker 1: I've watched the first episode, so I'm actually gonna watch more.

978
00:51:03,160 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: But I gotta sign up Joel both so you got

979
00:51:05,840 --> 00:51:10,000
Speaker 1: to get that first episode get so good, and uh,

980
00:51:10,040 --> 00:51:11,719
Speaker 1: I mean, I'm sure it's gonna kig. I'm not taking

981
00:51:11,800 --> 00:51:15,719
Speaker 1: that show. I just finished Peaky Blinders season six. I

982
00:51:15,719 --> 00:51:19,120
Speaker 1: gotta do the severance. Well, San, thank you so much

983
00:51:19,120 --> 00:51:21,719
Speaker 1: for joining us. Man. Where where can folks learn more

984
00:51:21,760 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: about you? Well? Obviously at Financial Samurai dot com. I'm

985
00:51:24,719 --> 00:51:26,200
Speaker 1: gonna go ahead and say it, but where can folks

986
00:51:26,320 --> 00:51:29,560
Speaker 1: learn more about your books? Specifically, you can buy buy this,

987
00:51:29,719 --> 00:51:31,279
Speaker 1: not that, How to Spend Your Way to Wealth and

988
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:35,080
Speaker 1: Freedom anywhere that they sell books, Amazon, Barnes and Nobles,

989
00:51:35,120 --> 00:51:38,879
Speaker 1: Powells Books, Indie Books, and at your bookstore. It's coming

990
00:51:38,880 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: out July. I think that's it's gonna be the best book.

991
00:51:42,719 --> 00:51:46,279
Speaker 1: And obviously I'm biased because it not only talks about

992
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:50,080
Speaker 1: helping you achieve financial freedom based on real life experience

993
00:51:50,080 --> 00:51:53,520
Speaker 1: and examples, but it really tackles a lot of life's

994
00:51:53,560 --> 00:51:56,279
Speaker 1: biggest dilemmas. What's the point of money, right is to

995
00:51:56,320 --> 00:51:58,760
Speaker 1: live a better life and to look back with no regret.

996
00:51:58,880 --> 00:52:01,200
Speaker 1: So I really think you guys love it? Yeah? No,

997
00:52:01,280 --> 00:52:03,319
Speaker 1: well we enjoyed reading it, Sam, and yeah, we think

998
00:52:03,320 --> 00:52:05,279
Speaker 1: how the money listeners are gonna love it too, So

999
00:52:05,520 --> 00:52:06,920
Speaker 1: Thank you so much for taking the time out of

1000
00:52:06,920 --> 00:52:09,359
Speaker 1: your day to join us. We appreciate it man, And yeah,

1001
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,360
Speaker 1: I hope to talk to you soon. Thanks so much, guys,

1002
00:52:11,360 --> 00:52:14,919
Speaker 1: I really feel honored that you have me on. Well, Sam,

1003
00:52:14,920 --> 00:52:17,240
Speaker 1: we are honored to have had you on the show today.

1004
00:52:17,239 --> 00:52:20,640
Speaker 1: Thanks again for joining us, Joel Man. Great conversation here

1005
00:52:20,719 --> 00:52:24,560
Speaker 1: with the financial Samurai. The man himself, Sam was one

1006
00:52:24,600 --> 00:52:27,400
Speaker 1: of the o g uh he he was just on

1007
00:52:27,440 --> 00:52:29,359
Speaker 1: the space. He was on the scene very early on

1008
00:52:29,600 --> 00:52:31,680
Speaker 1: when it came to folks who were writing about personal

1009
00:52:31,680 --> 00:52:35,200
Speaker 1: finance and specifically on you know, about the different ways

1010
00:52:35,400 --> 00:52:37,960
Speaker 1: that you can achieve some sense of financial freedom. So

1011
00:52:38,000 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 1: it was really cool to have him on today. But yeah,

1012
00:52:39,840 --> 00:52:42,000
Speaker 1: what were your Did you have a big takeaway from

1013
00:52:42,000 --> 00:52:44,279
Speaker 1: this episode? I think maybe I know, there's a lot

1014
00:52:44,320 --> 00:52:47,000
Speaker 1: of great stuff for sure, and I love the way

1015
00:52:47,040 --> 00:52:49,400
Speaker 1: so I'm Sam talks about engineering a layoff, and I

1016
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:51,640
Speaker 1: just think that's like such beneficial advice for so many

1017
00:52:51,640 --> 00:52:55,239
Speaker 1: people who are interested in changing careers or just tired

1018
00:52:55,239 --> 00:52:57,120
Speaker 1: of their job and want something different and they want

1019
00:52:57,120 --> 00:52:59,040
Speaker 1: maybe a little bit of peace out money to to

1020
00:52:59,080 --> 00:53:02,560
Speaker 1: help them navig eight uh those few months in between

1021
00:53:02,680 --> 00:53:05,080
Speaker 1: finding something else, but I think I don't know. The

1022
00:53:05,080 --> 00:53:07,640
Speaker 1: main thing that that stuck out to me talking to

1023
00:53:07,719 --> 00:53:10,760
Speaker 1: him was when he said investing is a psychological mind bender,

1024
00:53:11,040 --> 00:53:14,000
Speaker 1: and he said stay calm um, And basically what he

1025
00:53:14,040 --> 00:53:16,600
Speaker 1: said was that the fear is worse than the reality itself.

1026
00:53:16,880 --> 00:53:18,439
Speaker 1: And I think it's true. I think it's very true

1027
00:53:18,520 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: that we get fearful and we let that fear override

1028
00:53:22,000 --> 00:53:25,520
Speaker 1: the reality of the situation. Um, we we we let

1029
00:53:25,520 --> 00:53:29,680
Speaker 1: our emotions overly influence our behavior. So I think, yeah,

1030
00:53:30,000 --> 00:53:33,560
Speaker 1: staying calm is staying reasonable in a time where everyone

1031
00:53:33,640 --> 00:53:36,000
Speaker 1: else is running around like chickens with their with their

1032
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:38,759
Speaker 1: heads cut off. I think is is sage advice and

1033
00:53:38,760 --> 00:53:41,120
Speaker 1: it's something that we should all be following during this time.

1034
00:53:41,400 --> 00:53:44,640
Speaker 1: There is no need to look at your account balance

1035
00:53:44,840 --> 00:53:46,839
Speaker 1: every day or every week. There's no need to read

1036
00:53:46,840 --> 00:53:49,759
Speaker 1: the headlines. And the calmer you can stay in the

1037
00:53:49,800 --> 00:53:52,879
Speaker 1: midst of chaos, the more wealth you're gonna be able

1038
00:53:52,880 --> 00:53:54,920
Speaker 1: to build. That's right. Yeah, you just set up fear

1039
00:53:55,040 --> 00:53:57,560
Speaker 1: is bigger than the actual reality, and so all parlay

1040
00:53:57,640 --> 00:54:00,919
Speaker 1: that into negotiating that severance. And one of the things

1041
00:54:01,080 --> 00:54:03,319
Speaker 1: that took out to me was that in reality, for

1042
00:54:03,400 --> 00:54:06,000
Speaker 1: a business. We're not talking about a large amount of

1043
00:54:06,000 --> 00:54:08,000
Speaker 1: money in the grand scheme of things, and you know

1044
00:54:08,040 --> 00:54:10,879
Speaker 1: when you're taking the zoomed out big picture look at things,

1045
00:54:11,160 --> 00:54:14,480
Speaker 1: but the amount of goodwill that you are fostering by

1046
00:54:14,560 --> 00:54:17,040
Speaker 1: working with your boss or your manager or your employer

1047
00:54:17,320 --> 00:54:19,520
Speaker 1: to make sure that they're not the ones left holding

1048
00:54:19,520 --> 00:54:22,120
Speaker 1: the bag, because a lot of times it's not. It's

1049
00:54:22,120 --> 00:54:24,000
Speaker 1: it's less about the money, and it's more about the work.

1050
00:54:24,200 --> 00:54:26,640
Speaker 1: It's more about the different tasks. It's more about the

1051
00:54:27,080 --> 00:54:29,240
Speaker 1: client relations that you have, and if you are able

1052
00:54:29,280 --> 00:54:33,399
Speaker 1: to make that transition stretched out over a period of time,

1053
00:54:33,560 --> 00:54:34,680
Speaker 1: or if there are just some ways that you can

1054
00:54:34,719 --> 00:54:37,759
Speaker 1: make that happen more smoothly, like he said, while you

1055
00:54:37,800 --> 00:54:40,040
Speaker 1: train the new person who's going to be taking over

1056
00:54:40,160 --> 00:54:43,360
Speaker 1: your role. That is worth the money, and that is

1057
00:54:43,400 --> 00:54:45,400
Speaker 1: something that a manager is willing to pay for. And

1058
00:54:45,440 --> 00:54:47,520
Speaker 1: so I mentioned that because you're you're talking about fear,

1059
00:54:47,640 --> 00:54:49,480
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of times folks are afraid

1060
00:54:49,680 --> 00:54:52,759
Speaker 1: to step out and do something like that. But he

1061
00:54:52,800 --> 00:54:55,759
Speaker 1: positioned it where it's presumptuous, it feels presumptious, or it

1062
00:54:55,760 --> 00:54:58,080
Speaker 1: feels like or it feels like maybe mean or something

1063
00:54:58,160 --> 00:54:59,760
Speaker 1: like that, but what he was saying is that it's

1064
00:54:59,800 --> 00:55:02,160
Speaker 1: it's seems more rude to give a two week's notice

1065
00:55:02,200 --> 00:55:03,920
Speaker 1: where you're doing all right, because that seems like the

1066
00:55:04,000 --> 00:55:06,799
Speaker 1: clean when something that it makes complete sense that that

1067
00:55:06,880 --> 00:55:08,360
Speaker 1: is actually maybe a better way to go about it.

1068
00:55:08,400 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: And I just want to say that I was able

1069
00:55:09,760 --> 00:55:12,600
Speaker 1: to do this exact same thing. Like I read what

1070
00:55:12,760 --> 00:55:14,640
Speaker 1: Sam wrote on this and I was like, dang it,

1071
00:55:14,680 --> 00:55:16,719
Speaker 1: that makes a whole lot of sense. And I was

1072
00:55:16,920 --> 00:55:19,920
Speaker 1: like looking to to leave, but there was a perfect

1073
00:55:19,920 --> 00:55:21,800
Speaker 1: outlet to say, what if I stick around for a

1074
00:55:21,840 --> 00:55:25,400
Speaker 1: little bit longer? And I helped with this transition and ultimately, like,

1075
00:55:25,520 --> 00:55:27,240
Speaker 1: I see that you're actually trying to get rid of people,

1076
00:55:27,360 --> 00:55:29,400
Speaker 1: get rid of me. And so when your employer was

1077
00:55:29,400 --> 00:55:31,240
Speaker 1: better off for it though, because you were to stick around.

1078
00:55:31,640 --> 00:55:33,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, I think a lot of times folks see

1079
00:55:33,520 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: the two week noticed thing. I was like, Okay, that's

1080
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,720
Speaker 1: just how you do it. There's a reason why everybody

1081
00:55:37,719 --> 00:55:41,680
Speaker 1: remembers that. I don't know, it's got a good marketing platform.

1082
00:55:41,920 --> 00:55:43,919
Speaker 1: Like for whatever reason that is stuck in our minds,

1083
00:55:43,960 --> 00:55:46,920
Speaker 1: that's what you're supposed to do. But in reality, maybe

1084
00:55:47,000 --> 00:55:50,000
Speaker 1: there are some alternatives where everybody is able to win

1085
00:55:50,000 --> 00:55:52,160
Speaker 1: where everybody's going to come out a little more ahead.

1086
00:55:52,680 --> 00:55:55,080
Speaker 1: But yeah, that was my big take away. Uh, Foster

1087
00:55:55,160 --> 00:55:58,000
Speaker 1: that goodwill with with your employer. Don't be afraid to

1088
00:55:58,000 --> 00:56:00,520
Speaker 1: start having some of those conversations. But unless get back

1089
00:56:00,560 --> 00:56:02,680
Speaker 1: to the beer that you and I enjoyed during this episode,

1090
00:56:02,719 --> 00:56:06,239
Speaker 1: we both enjoyed a daily serving and this is a

1091
00:56:06,320 --> 00:56:11,400
Speaker 1: tropical punch berlinavice. This is by Trillium. I didn't know

1092
00:56:11,480 --> 00:56:13,880
Speaker 1: that Trillium makes Berlino vices. I think most of the

1093
00:56:13,920 --> 00:56:16,160
Speaker 1: beers I've ever had by them have been I P

1094
00:56:16,360 --> 00:56:18,880
Speaker 1: A s. And so this is a quite a surprise

1095
00:56:18,960 --> 00:56:20,960
Speaker 1: to to be able to enjoy something so delicious that

1096
00:56:21,000 --> 00:56:23,040
Speaker 1: I'm not used to these guys making. But what were

1097
00:56:23,040 --> 00:56:24,440
Speaker 1: your thoughts on I think we've had like a coffee

1098
00:56:24,440 --> 00:56:27,239
Speaker 1: stop from them before too, but everything we've had from

1099
00:56:27,280 --> 00:56:30,399
Speaker 1: them has everything else. It's been incredible. Yeah, and and

1100
00:56:30,560 --> 00:56:34,200
Speaker 1: so this one was no exception to me. If this

1101
00:56:34,200 --> 00:56:36,759
Speaker 1: could count as my serving of daily fruit, I would

1102
00:56:36,800 --> 00:56:40,000
Speaker 1: drink it every day because it is just like it's

1103
00:56:40,040 --> 00:56:42,799
Speaker 1: bursting at the seams with fruit flavor and so just

1104
00:56:42,880 --> 00:56:46,399
Speaker 1: incredibly juicy, luxurious amounts of fruit in this I would say,

1105
00:56:46,440 --> 00:56:49,000
Speaker 1: like they must have used a ton because the fruit

1106
00:56:49,080 --> 00:56:51,640
Speaker 1: vibes come forward in a big way. But yeah, again,

1107
00:56:51,680 --> 00:56:55,319
Speaker 1: like everything Trillium does, I'm impressed. It's so good. Right,

1108
00:56:55,560 --> 00:56:57,239
Speaker 1: So some of the flavors they don't like bash you

1109
00:56:57,239 --> 00:56:58,960
Speaker 1: over the head all ryeah, it's just not like this

1110
00:56:59,040 --> 00:57:02,640
Speaker 1: perfume kind of over the top fruit flavor. It's it's

1111
00:57:02,760 --> 00:57:04,799
Speaker 1: it's real, like you can tell that there there there

1112
00:57:04,840 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: is real fruit in here. And like you said, I

1113
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:09,920
Speaker 1: think that's why they called it daily serving, because it

1114
00:57:09,920 --> 00:57:12,520
Speaker 1: truly is real fruit in this beer. Honestly, it kind

1115
00:57:12,560 --> 00:57:14,200
Speaker 1: of reminds me of Humble Forger because they do a

1116
00:57:14,239 --> 00:57:16,479
Speaker 1: really good job of incorporating a lot of that fruit

1117
00:57:16,520 --> 00:57:20,480
Speaker 1: flavor without it feeling like this perfumey artificial fruitiness. Um.

1118
00:57:20,520 --> 00:57:23,240
Speaker 1: And so I think Trillium has done an incredible job.

1119
00:57:23,400 --> 00:57:25,080
Speaker 1: And this was another beer that was sent to us,

1120
00:57:25,080 --> 00:57:28,240
Speaker 1: by the way, by Sean. He is up there in Boston,

1121
00:57:28,320 --> 00:57:30,600
Speaker 1: I'm pretty sure, and so for him this is maybe

1122
00:57:30,600 --> 00:57:32,040
Speaker 1: this is a daily thing because it might be his

1123
00:57:32,120 --> 00:57:34,320
Speaker 1: daily serving. Gonna be able to enjoy something this delicious,

1124
00:57:34,320 --> 00:57:36,760
Speaker 1: I'm jealous, But Sean, thank you so much for sending

1125
00:57:36,840 --> 00:57:39,320
Speaker 1: this one. Hour away. Seriously, thanks Sean, we appreciate it.

1126
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,760
Speaker 1: By the way, Matt, we should announce how to enter

1127
00:57:41,840 --> 00:57:44,160
Speaker 1: the book. We almost forgot that you mentioned at the

1128
00:57:44,200 --> 00:57:47,160
Speaker 1: beginning of the episode. We are giving away five copies

1129
00:57:47,320 --> 00:57:50,600
Speaker 1: of Sam's new book by this, not that, And all

1130
00:57:50,600 --> 00:57:53,760
Speaker 1: you gotta do is be a How to Money newsletter subscriber.

1131
00:57:54,280 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 1: If you already subscribed, you realize how glorious it is,

1132
00:57:57,960 --> 00:58:00,800
Speaker 1: and you are already entered. Uh. But if you have

1133
00:58:01,000 --> 00:58:04,360
Speaker 1: not yet subscribed, you should and it's free, and you

1134
00:58:04,400 --> 00:58:06,680
Speaker 1: will get entered to win one of these five copies,

1135
00:58:06,880 --> 00:58:11,440
Speaker 1: and we will mention the winners in next week's newsletter

1136
00:58:11,440 --> 00:58:13,920
Speaker 1: a week from tomorrow. That's right, and you can sign

1137
00:58:14,000 --> 00:58:16,120
Speaker 1: up for that newsletter at how to Money dot com

1138
00:58:16,200 --> 00:58:18,240
Speaker 1: Ford slash newsletter. I love how we got that. You

1139
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:22,000
Speaker 1: are l just nailed right, We got it all right man.

1140
00:58:22,000 --> 00:58:24,880
Speaker 1: That's gonna be it for this episode, buddy. Until next time,

1141
00:58:25,000 --> 00:58:26,880
Speaker 1: Best Friends Out, Best Friends Out.