Speaker 1: Welcome to the Bloomberg Markets Podcast. I'm Paul Sweeney alongside
Speaker 1: my co host Matt Miller.
Speaker 2: Every business day we bring you interviews from CEOs, market pros,
Speaker 2: and Bloomberg experts, along with essential market moven news.
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Speaker 1: Talk about the global energy. We've been calling out the
Speaker 1: price of WTI crude oil, you know, for the last
Speaker 1: several months, as it's moved off of it's low, and
Speaker 1: he's now up another one point four percent today for
Speaker 1: WTI crude just under ninety three dollars or barrel, and
Speaker 1: it's getting a lot of people as it does when
Speaker 1: we see big moves talking about alternatives to oil. One
Speaker 1: of those is nuclear. Seth Gray joins us. He's a
Speaker 1: president and chief executive officer light Bridge Corporation. That's a
Speaker 1: nastac trade. It's company ltbrs at ticker to put in there. Seth,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us here in our Bloomberg
Speaker 1: Interactor Brooker Studio. What is light Bridge Corporation? What do
Speaker 1: you guys do? What's your strategy?
Speaker 3: Look, our main activities are. We are designing advanced fuels
Speaker 3: that will work in the existing reactors as well as
Speaker 3: the newcoming small ones that we're talking.
Speaker 1: So we're talking nuclear nuclear.
Speaker 3: Fuel fuel, so fuel you put inside the reactors. The
Speaker 3: reactors won't work without it. But this is a reimagined,
Speaker 3: for the first time, new better fuel for the reactors.
Speaker 3: We're partnering with Idaho National Laboratory to develop and test it,
Speaker 3: and this will improve the safety of the reactors and
Speaker 3: the economics of the reactors dramatically, as well as the
Speaker 3: non proliferation and can allow reactors to load follow with
Speaker 3: renewables on a zero carbon grid.
Speaker 2: How safe can they be? I just got finished watching Chernobyl,
Speaker 2: which is terrifying, and I know I'm one of the
Speaker 2: last people to watch it. But before that, I watched
Speaker 2: Inside Bill Gates' Brain and I thought it was really
Speaker 2: a fantastic cell for the nuclear industry. He seems to
Speaker 2: have found a very safe solution to creating nuclear energy.
Speaker 4: Right.
Speaker 3: What's happening now is companies like terror Power that Bill
Speaker 3: Gates is the chairman of and light Bridge, our company,
Speaker 3: are developing newer, much safer technologies that literally physically cannot
Speaker 3: have an accident like Chernoybyl. These are very different, extremely
Speaker 3: safer technologies. The light Bridge fuel runs one thousand degrees
Speaker 3: celsius cooler in reactors than the current fuel and actually
Speaker 3: will produce more power while doing it, and just extremely safe.
Speaker 1: Set reset kind of the world energy grid for US,
Speaker 1: where is nuclear power today in the US, and then
Speaker 1: maybe in other parts of the world. Is it on
Speaker 1: the ascendency or is it still facing a lot of headwinds.
Speaker 3: It's on the ascendancy. The polling in most countries shows
Speaker 3: nuclear has about two thirds favorable or strongly favorable support,
Speaker 3: and the people who work in nuclear don't believe that,
Speaker 3: and that we're seeing new nuclear reactors being finished in Georgia,
Speaker 3: in the United States, ordered in many countries, we're seeing
Speaker 3: rapid development of these small reactors and advanced fuel like
Speaker 3: what light Bridge is doing. And it's partly for climate reasons,
Speaker 3: but I think the stronger driver right now is energy security.
Speaker 3: Countries that either want to get off relying on Putin's
Speaker 3: fossil fuels, or it turns out whoever supplies them with
Speaker 3: fossil fuels they tend not to trust, and being able
Speaker 3: to get off that is a good thing. And you
Speaker 3: know you just mentioned the one percent you know, increase
Speaker 3: in oil prices, it will translate to about one percent
Speaker 3: price increase in a lot of expenses, including gasoline. That
Speaker 3: doesn't happen in nuclear it's very level pricing. A one
Speaker 3: percent increase in uranium price would result in a tiny,
Speaker 3: tiny fraction of one percent of increase in a nuclear
Speaker 3: power price.
Speaker 2: But it's the startup costs that are what terrifies everyone.
Speaker 3: Right, Yes, in in terms of if you're building one
Speaker 3: or two, Yes, if you're building four, By the time
Speaker 3: you get to the third one, those issues are done.
Speaker 3: The United States built over one hundred large reactors, you know,
Speaker 3: most of them on schedule, on budget. The United Arab
Speaker 3: Emirates just built four pretty much on schedule on budget.
Speaker 3: China is, Russia is, France built almost sixty of them
Speaker 3: on schedule on budget. So yes, it's like building a bridge.
Speaker 3: If it's a one of a kind thing, the engineering,
Speaker 3: the complex construction can go over but you build several
Speaker 3: of them, that's not the case. And with these small reactors,
Speaker 3: where much of them will be factory built, you could
Speaker 3: build them like seven thirty sevens, very large numbers and
Speaker 3: really know the timeframes and costs.
Speaker 1: Talk to us about those smaller reactors. I guess I've
Speaker 1: heard about them just over the last several years. Tell
Speaker 1: me what are they, how are they different, and what's
Speaker 1: kind of their purpose?
Speaker 3: Well, right now, the typical nuclear actor is one thousand
Speaker 3: megawats electric power. Small reactors under the US government definition
Speaker 3: are three hundred megawats are smaller, and some go way
Speaker 3: smaller than that, so say less than a third the
Speaker 3: size of the current reactors to even much smaller than that.
Speaker 3: So first of all, you could get them small enough
Speaker 3: that you could have dedicated power to critical facilities like
Speaker 3: military bases, data centers, oil refineries, et cetera. So if
Speaker 3: someone shuts down the electric grid, you don't lose the
Speaker 3: military base, etc. Another factor is that because so much
Speaker 3: of them are factory built and shipped to the site,
Speaker 3: you have very good quality control, can build them much cheaper,
Speaker 3: much faster, and they're just using more advanced, more modern
Speaker 3: technology on safety, so that even with situations like you've
Speaker 3: seen where a reactor will lose water that kind of thing,
Speaker 3: these reactors could not harm anybody literally.
Speaker 5: You know.
Speaker 3: It looks like even if they lived across the street
Speaker 3: from the plant.
Speaker 1: Are they are we building them in the US now
Speaker 1: we are.
Speaker 3: Going too soon. New Scale is working with Idaho National
Speaker 3: Laboratory to deploy one at Idaho National Laboratory. The company
Speaker 3: you mentioned, Terror Power with Bill Gates is looking at
Speaker 3: deploying at least one in Wyoming. X Energy is looking
Speaker 3: at deploying in Texas to power down chemical plants, and
Speaker 3: there are several others that are looking at near term
Speaker 3: and probably the first will actually be nearby. G Hitachi
Speaker 3: deploying one at Ontario Power Generation in Canada.
Speaker 1: Okay, so I know the nuclear energy policy. Someone is
Speaker 1: in New York this week. What's the number one issue?
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, and I was pleased to speak there yesterday,
Speaker 3: and the number one is shoe there, I'd say, ostensibly
Speaker 3: is climate change, and that's what John Kerry spoke about
Speaker 3: in his keynote yesterday as part of Climate Week. But
Speaker 3: with President Zelenski about to arrive here in New York
Speaker 3: and speak at some events here too, I think energy
Speaker 3: security is really dominating and we're hearing more and more
Speaker 3: about that at the conference too, not just climate.
Speaker 2: I wonder when everybody started adding a second you to
Speaker 2: the word nuclear. Have you noticed that even George Bush
Speaker 2: says nuclear?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 2: Yeah, where's that come from?
Speaker 1: Well?
Speaker 3: I think it came from George Bush originally, but it
Speaker 3: kind of stuck. So it's an American thing. I don't
Speaker 3: hear that in other countries.
Speaker 1: All right, Seth, thanks so much for joining us. Seth Gray,
Speaker 1: President and chief executive officer of light Bridge Corporation lt
Speaker 1: BR is a ticker to load into your Bloomberg terminal.
Speaker 5: You're listening to the team ken'shur Live program Bloomberg Markets
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Speaker 1: There's just a lot of folks out there doing some
Speaker 1: really good work about just alternative energies in general. One
Speaker 1: of them is Jonathan Maxwell. He's the CEO and co
Speaker 1: founder of Sustainable Development Capital, and he has also has
Speaker 1: got a new book out scene right here, got a
Speaker 1: new book out the Edge, How competition for resources is
Speaker 1: pushing the world and it's climate to the brink and
Speaker 1: what we can do about it. Jonathan, thanks so much
Speaker 1: for joining us here on our Bloomberg Interactive Broker's studio.
Speaker 1: What's the big message for you when you're getting you
Speaker 1: know you here. It's Climate Week in New York, it's
Speaker 1: United Nations General Assembly. I gotta think energy, Given what's
Speaker 1: happening in the world is front and center. What's what's
Speaker 1: the message you bring to your clients.
Speaker 6: So some people might say the clean energy transitional sustainability
Speaker 6: isn't going so well, okay, by most eighty two percent
Speaker 6: of the world is gas and coal in terms of
Speaker 6: its energy. So the message I bring is that not
Speaker 6: only do we need to figure out, which is the
Speaker 6: mainstream piece, how to get more clean energy into the system,
Speaker 6: but we've got to figure out how we can start
Speaker 6: wasting two thirds to three quarters of the energy in
Speaker 6: the system in the first place. So much of the
Speaker 6: gas and the oil is love.
Speaker 1: Before, right, Yeah, because the inefficiencies is your thing, right,
Speaker 1: This is exactly.
Speaker 6: Inefficience is my thing. Because the world weighs seventy five
Speaker 6: percent of its energy, half of the food, and the
Speaker 6: third of the water.
Speaker 2: Is there a cool scientific term for energy that's wasted
Speaker 2: and used.
Speaker 6: Its energy losses, losses of primary energy, energy waste. Some
Speaker 6: of the best work in the world has done here
Speaker 6: in the United States by the Lawrence Livermore National Laboratory.
Speaker 6: They run an energy flow chart. You show how much
Speaker 6: energy comes into the US economy, how much survives. On
Speaker 6: the other side, you lose about two thirds of the
Speaker 6: energy and it's mostly heat. So you talked about nuclear
Speaker 6: power stations. It's great producing power from a nuke plant,
Speaker 6: but if you're dumping the heat, then it's only operating
Speaker 6: at thirty eight percent efficiency. If you've got a gas
Speaker 6: turbine which is driving electricity onto the grid and it's
Speaker 6: dumping the heat, it's delivering forty to fifty percent efficiency.
Speaker 2: But at least the nuclear isn't creating a carbon footprint, right.
Speaker 6: But yes, but you're wasting the heat, and so yeah.
Speaker 2: I understand. But the thing is other energy sources create
Speaker 2: carbon dioxide, which contributes to global warming, right as we
Speaker 2: are told. I don't care if nuclear dumps ninety five
Speaker 2: percent of its energy as long as it doesn't contribute
Speaker 2: to global warming.
Speaker 7: Right.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 6: So there are three things and one dimension and that
Speaker 6: they're deditional to think about. So the first is carbon.
Speaker 6: That's a really important thing to solve for. The second
Speaker 6: is cost. How much does it actually cost? Total life
Speaker 6: cycle and actually saving energy is the cheapest possible way,
Speaker 6: especially if you're dumping two thirds of it. The third
Speaker 6: is resilience and availability, and that brings us into the
Speaker 6: last point, like how reliable. Clear is very reliable when
Speaker 6: you put it on the grid. It can run what
Speaker 6: they call baseload, But the problem is how long. So
Speaker 6: here's the last point. Time. So we all talk about
Speaker 6: transitioning the energy system, but it's going to take decades
Speaker 6: and trillions of dollars and we're going to do it.
Speaker 6: And that's what Janet Yellen is talking about tomorrow in
Speaker 6: General Assembly, and we celebrate that. What I'm saying is
Speaker 6: in the meantime it's just as important and it can
Speaker 6: be done if not to waste the energy in the meantime.
Speaker 2: And that's what is the most efficient source of energy
Speaker 2: for running our homes and businesses and cars.
Speaker 6: So the most efficient source of energy for running cars
Speaker 6: is electricity. It's about seventy five percent efficient compared to
Speaker 6: about fifteen to thirty.
Speaker 2: Well, but that electricity comes from many different sources of energy.
Speaker 2: Read it could come from nuclear, come from dirty core.
Speaker 6: So most efficient way of generating energy for electricity it
Speaker 6: is if you can use the heat as well as
Speaker 6: producing the electricity. So cogeneration using wastegot is natural gas
Speaker 6: even but as long as you're using their heat, nuclear
Speaker 6: as long as you're using their.
Speaker 2: Heat, So nuclear with a turbocharger.
Speaker 6: Essentially nuclear with a heat recovery system, and then using
Speaker 6: that heat and then in an industry needs a tremendous
Speaker 6: amount of heat as well as power. And the last
Speaker 6: point I'd make is we always talk about energy as
Speaker 6: if it's electricity. Do you know how much of the
Speaker 6: world's energy is electricity?
Speaker 2: Wow?
Speaker 6: Wow, Well the rest it's heat and transport fuel. So
Speaker 6: here we are in the United States. The United States
Speaker 6: loses seventy eight percent of the primary energy and other
Speaker 6: way to the oil that goes into transport.
Speaker 2: That's the number one told us yesterday, Paul that the
Speaker 2: growth in demand for electricity over the last twenty years,
Speaker 2: or the growth in production, has been zero, which I
Speaker 2: thought was fascinated. I would have imagined it's exponentially larger.
Speaker 6: Well, actually, you know Whatentially, if you look at where
Speaker 6: electricity ends up, it ends up in the home largely,
Speaker 6: so domestic our homes are very significant uses of energy.
Speaker 6: Business and industry to something almost nothing in transport yet, right,
Speaker 6: So if you then put everything into the energy system,
Speaker 6: the big piece is we've got a big problem with
Speaker 6: heat and transport. That's the piece that needs to be solved.
Speaker 6: Seventy five percent of all of this energy solution is
Speaker 6: addressable through making more efficient solutions for buildings, industry, and
Speaker 6: transport generate energy where you need it.
Speaker 2: So you say heat, are you talking about hvactis in general.
Speaker 6: I'm talking about h fact high temperature process heat. I'm
Speaker 6: talking about cooling steel mill, cement plants and very high
Speaker 6: temperature heat cooling. There's more growth in demand for cooling
Speaker 6: by twenty thirteen, then the whole demand for energy and
Speaker 6: India put together. You know, data Center's massive public buildings
Speaker 6: in the country. I come from from my funny accent
Speaker 6: for UK. Fourteen percent of the UK's energy goes used
Speaker 6: by the public sector. The biggest part of it's the
Speaker 6: hospitals and they use again as much heating and cooling
Speaker 6: as they do electricity, and they waste most of it.
Speaker 1: What are some of the technologies that you've seen or
Speaker 1: that you're funding that go this energy waste issue recovery?
Speaker 6: Yeah, So recovering things that would otherwise be wasted, so
Speaker 6: you can you can generate a natural gas even you
Speaker 6: use it in natural gas on site, but use if
Speaker 6: you're on site. You can use the heat for power, sorry,
Speaker 6: heat for heating. If you're taking a blast furnace, you
Speaker 6: can take which we do. We take the waste gases
Speaker 6: from the blast furnace and recycle them into power and steam.
Speaker 8: For steel mills.
Speaker 6: You can put solar on your rooftop, not just at home,
Speaker 6: but a massive scale in commercial industrial applications, and there's
Speaker 6: almost no transmission and distribution loss, and you can match
Speaker 6: your loads well. If you pair it up with batteries.
Speaker 6: You can do heat efficiently by putting heat pumps in
Speaker 6: industrial applications. I've been doing this job for fifteen sixteen
Speaker 6: years of on site energy generation. The biggest innovation I
Speaker 6: was dealing with eleven twelve years ago was the LED
Speaker 6: light barb. All of a sudden, you could save ninety
Speaker 6: percent of the energy with an asset that worked twenty
Speaker 6: percent sorry, twenty times longer. But on site energy generation
Speaker 6: is a massive part of the solution. By the way,
Speaker 6: if you don't stop wasting all of this energy, I'm
Speaker 6: afraid there's no point making all the new stuff, however
Speaker 6: green it is, if we're just dumping the existing energy
Speaker 6: networked out.
Speaker 2: Well, don't tell anybody that.
Speaker 6: We have to do both. We have to go as
Speaker 6: fast as possible in generating clean energy and at the
Speaker 6: same time, but to the same level of effort and
Speaker 6: the same level of investment, we have to invest in
Speaker 6: efficiencies and improvement is happening, it's just starting. I have
Speaker 6: to celebrate the United States on this one, compared to
Speaker 6: my country. At the moment, the United States, about twenty
Speaker 6: percent of the Inflation Production Act is designated for things
Speaker 6: I would broadly define as on site generation or efficiency.
Speaker 6: The European Commission has a massive policy called energy efficiency first.
Speaker 1: That's because if you.
Speaker 6: Remember when Russia last invaded Ukraine, when the annexed Crimea,
Speaker 6: the Europeans came out and said, well, for every unit
Speaker 6: of ass we don't use is too and half we
Speaker 6: don't need to buy from Russia. So Ever, since then,
Speaker 6: although they mumbled it, until last year, the European Commission
Speaker 6: had been quite serious about energy efficiency. It's now in
Speaker 6: the number one policy the UK needs to get serious today.
Speaker 6: There is actually finally a message from the Chancellor looking
Speaker 6: at ways of addressing this. But this is the largest, fastest,
Speaker 6: cheapest source of greenhouse gas emissions, the biggest way of
Speaker 6: cutting costs in the economy, and a huge The great
Speaker 6: news is I'm not here talking about becking for subsidies.
Speaker 6: I'm talking about getting something done that's good for business,
Speaker 6: good for the economy. Actually, I think it's the greatest
Speaker 6: economic opportunity that I know.
Speaker 1: That's all right, Jonathan, great stuff. I knew once you
Speaker 1: start talking. I know this guy, Jonathan Maxwell, CEO and
Speaker 1: co founder of Sustainable Development Capital.
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Speaker 1: Not surprisingly, climate change and natural disasters are at the
Speaker 1: forefront of concerns among corporate executives, and we want to
Speaker 1: get a handle on that, so we check in with
Speaker 1: Pat Gallagher. He's the CEO of Gallagher Insurance. It is
Speaker 1: on the New York Stock Exchange listed company a JG
Speaker 1: is the ticker. It is a fifty billion dollar market
Speaker 1: cap company. It's starts up twenty four and a half
Speaker 1: percent year to date. It's a fifty two week high
Speaker 1: and it's up seven tens to one percent today. Pat,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for joining us here. I know you
Speaker 1: guys recently conducted a survey of one thousand US business
Speaker 1: owners to understand kind of how they're thinking about risk.
Speaker 1: What are some of the key takeaways you found.
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, it is no surprise that the
Speaker 4: business owners are incredibly concerned about climate change and weather
Speaker 4: related issues. And so when you think about what's happened
Speaker 4: just in the past week or two with Lee coming
Speaker 4: up these coasts, we kind of escaped a major hit,
Speaker 4: but those things continue to rack the business community. In fact,
Speaker 4: I think we estimate the first half natural causes first
Speaker 4: half of the year caused about one hundred and thirty
Speaker 4: eight billion dollars of losses. And if you're a business person,
Speaker 4: you know that's a lot of businesses being impact that's
Speaker 4: a lot of homes being impacted by natural disasters. So
Speaker 4: that really is one of the main concerns of business
Speaker 4: people We interviewed about a thousand clients, all of them
Speaker 4: privately owned. So this is not the professional risk management community.
Speaker 4: These are the people day in and day out that
Speaker 4: make a living by running businesses, and they are concerned
Speaker 4: about their risk management needs, which they should be.
Speaker 2: I wonder, sorry, I wonder if there's a difference. Well,
Speaker 2: they're concerned, but are they doing anything about it? Is
Speaker 2: there anything they can do about it?
Speaker 4: Yes, there is, and that's I think a really good point.
Speaker 4: The fact is that there's a lot they can do
Speaker 4: about it, and risk management and the ability to counsel
Speaker 4: with them and to give them some advice is a
Speaker 4: huge part of what we're all about out Insurance is
Speaker 4: just really one piece of what we do for a client,
Speaker 4: and in fact, we start with that premise that insurance
Speaker 4: plays a role in your risk management. But your risk
Speaker 4: management is not just we buy insurance, and it should
Speaker 4: be what can we do? Where do we locate plants,
Speaker 4: where do we move trucks? How do we react when
Speaker 4: a storm is coming? What is our disaster recovery planning?
Speaker 4: We help on all of that. So when something happens
Speaker 4: that's really a major disaster, how do we get you
Speaker 4: back up in business as quickly as possible. Insurance plays
Speaker 4: a role in all of that, but it's.
Speaker 1: Not the be all and end all, right, So from
Speaker 1: the insurance perspective, I mean, you know, it's interesting, Pat,
Speaker 1: I see a lot of companies relocating to It seems
Speaker 1: like everybody and the Brothers going down to Florida. But boy,
Speaker 1: it'd be a tough place to base a business given
Speaker 1: all the challenges they're facing from you know, all the
Speaker 1: weather issues down there. What do you see when you
Speaker 1: talk to some of these smaller mid sized businesses about
Speaker 1: kind of how they really try to incorporate that into
Speaker 1: kind of their future.
Speaker 4: Well, first of all, I think it's really important enough
Speaker 4: that not all the midsized businesses across America are moving
Speaker 4: to Florida, and they're not moving to Texas. They're in
Speaker 4: business because the communities they're in need them. Whether they're
Speaker 4: construction companies or real estate owners, or whether they're food companies,
Speaker 4: whatever it is, they're in locations because there's business opportunities there.
Speaker 4: So first of all, you've got to start with the
Speaker 4: premise that not all companies either have the same exposures
Speaker 4: are the same. Way to mitigate those exposures. You have
Speaker 4: to really personalize this and you have to sit down
Speaker 4: with a client and understand where are they operating, what
Speaker 4: business is it in. We happen to be privileged to
Speaker 4: be very very expert at about thirty to fifty areas
Speaker 4: of business. So take hotels, or take real estate, or
Speaker 4: religious or not for profit or construction. In these areas,
Speaker 4: we really know that business. So we can sit down
Speaker 4: and it's a different set of exposures for the person
Speaker 4: that has to be a contractor in Naples versus the
Speaker 4: person who's as a contractor or real estate owner in Chicago.
Speaker 4: And these businesses are literally global, but they're across the
Speaker 4: interviewed businesses were across the United States, and you start
Speaker 4: with saying, okay, what are your exposures your No, two
Speaker 4: businesses are exactly the same, and no two business owners
Speaker 4: have the exact same appetite for risk. I'll give you
Speaker 4: an example. I can take a large auto dealer in
Speaker 4: the town that I live in, Glenview, Illinois, on one
Speaker 4: side of town and have a large auto dealer on
Speaker 4: the other side of town owned by different families. Those
Speaker 4: families will have a different appetite for risk. How much
Speaker 4: of the lot exposure for Hale, does one want to
Speaker 4: take versus the other? And you have to sit down
Speaker 4: with the owner and say, all right, you know, what
Speaker 4: is your personal balance sheet, what is your appetite? How
Speaker 4: do we mitigate that? What do you do when you
Speaker 4: see a storm coming? What is the coverage that you
Speaker 4: need to take care of that open lot? How much
Speaker 4: are you going to have out there, how much are
Speaker 4: you going to be able to move indoors, et cetera.
Speaker 4: And that varies across industries, and it varies across geographies.
Speaker 4: And that's the starting point for someone like Gallagher, who
Speaker 4: then says at the end point, now let's buy this
Speaker 4: insurance to cover the things that you can't mitigate. And
Speaker 4: I think that's a really important function that a lot
Speaker 4: of people don't understand about the responsibility that the brokers
Speaker 4: have for their commercial clients.
Speaker 2: By the way, in terms of Gallagher, can you keep
Speaker 2: premium increases across coverage across geography in line with inflation?
Speaker 2: I know we've been doing some stories about, for example,
Speaker 2: automotive insurance rising double digits every month for the past
Speaker 2: twelve so the inflation is there, but everywhere else, I mean,
Speaker 2: you know, your cost to repair or replace is going
Speaker 2: to be higher with inflation. So do you do you
Speaker 2: see the increases in premiums as well? Do you have
Speaker 2: that pricing power?
Speaker 4: Well, no, we don't have pricing power because recall we
Speaker 4: are brokers. We take no risk. So our job is
Speaker 4: to help that insured figure out number one, how to
Speaker 4: mitigate their own risk and then number two, how to
Speaker 4: properly buy insurance. And that means that in order to
Speaker 4: keep that pricing or to keep that cost at the
Speaker 4: level that it should how much should they retain? How
Speaker 4: much of a deductible so they should have So let
Speaker 4: me put it in personal line standards. Do you want
Speaker 4: to take a five hundred dollars deductible on your personal
Speaker 4: lines or a five thousand dollars deductible? Well, different people
Speaker 4: will take different amounts, and that has a direct impact
Speaker 4: on the cost of your personal lines, whether it's your
Speaker 4: auto insurance, your homeowners same is true in business. So
Speaker 4: if you have the personal balance sheet to be able
Speaker 4: to take more risk, you can mitigate the cost to
Speaker 4: the premium that you're going to pay to a third party.
Speaker 4: And we're very very good at that, whether it be
Speaker 4: putting together group captives, whether it be putting together self
Speaker 4: insurance programs, or whether it simply be saying, look, the
Speaker 4: best place for you to get your insurance is this
Speaker 4: first dollar policy written by XYZ Insurance Company. But we
Speaker 4: don't actually have pricing power. Our job is to help
Speaker 4: that person who doesn't live day in and day out
Speaker 4: in the market get the best deal. And right now,
Speaker 4: you're absolutely right. The cost of ensuring people is terrifically
Speaker 4: impacted by inflation.
Speaker 1: And so for it I mean is inflation, is the
Speaker 1: rates insurance companies can charge. Is that relegated by the state.
Speaker 1: Is that regulated by the state, and so therefore you
Speaker 1: have to work with the state.
Speaker 4: So it depends on the line of coverage, and it
Speaker 4: depends on the state. So in most states personal lines,
Speaker 4: in particular automobile rates are regulated. Okay, and you see
Speaker 4: a conflict going on right now that I think most
Speaker 4: of your listeners will be aware of. In the state
Speaker 4: of California, a lot of companies have said, look enough,
Speaker 4: we're not going to write here. And part of that
Speaker 4: is the loss picture the wildfires and the hurt that
Speaker 4: the the threats that they have just in terms of those,
Speaker 4: but a lot of it also is simply saying, look,
Speaker 4: we have inflation, the cost to repair is significant. We
Speaker 4: need to file for rate increases, we need to base
Speaker 4: rate change in order to cover these costs, where you
Speaker 4: have a political system that makes that difficult to do.
Speaker 4: You finally have a break point in California where some
Speaker 4: carriers have said I just can't write anymore here, and
Speaker 4: that's a real problem politically, and it is on those
Speaker 4: lines of coverage that everybody has to buy. Now, when
Speaker 4: you leave that and you go to a commercial concern,
Speaker 4: then you do have some lines of coverage that are regulated.
Speaker 4: But you also have a pressure release valve we refer
Speaker 4: to as the excess and surplus market, and that allows
Speaker 4: insurance to be quoted on a free form, free to rate.
Speaker 4: So that allows me to sit for the commercial client
Speaker 4: and say, don't buy that from the regulate identity. Let
Speaker 4: me structure this for you differently.
Speaker 8: Got it.
Speaker 4: So the answer your question is, yes, there's a heavy
Speaker 4: dose of regulation. It varies by geography, it varies by
Speaker 4: line of coverage.
Speaker 1: All right, Pat, great stuff has always Pat Gallagher, he's
Speaker 1: the CEO of Gallagher Insurance. But that's a tough business
Speaker 1: for me to really understand it always has been. But
Speaker 1: fortunately there are people out there who kind of get it.
Speaker 1: Gallagher Insurance, it's a New York stock change list of
Speaker 1: company A jay G is the ticker. Some wee can
Speaker 1: load that in the Bloomberg terminal.
Speaker 5: You're listening to the Team Ken's are Live program Bloomberg
Speaker 5: Markets weekdays at ten am Eastern on Bloomberg dot com,
Speaker 5: the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app, or listen
Speaker 5: on demand wherever you get your podcasts.
Speaker 1: All right, we got Joe Mysek in studio, but it's
Speaker 1: not Friday. So why is Joe Mysek, who covers all
Speaker 1: the municipal bond stuff for Bloomberg News. Why is he
Speaker 1: in there? Because he wrote a BusinessWeek column, a story
Speaker 1: that went back to his work on a little book,
Speaker 1: this little edition he had to this book called The
Speaker 1: Bonfire of the Vanities, and if you haven't read it,
Speaker 1: go back. It is the definitive Wall Street book of
Speaker 1: the great decade that was the nineteen eighties. Absolutely that
Speaker 1: came after, that came after, and Liarys Poker is very
Speaker 1: good because and that's also a great one.
Speaker 2: Barbarians at the Gate.
Speaker 1: Also a great one. That came after Tom Wolf, author
Speaker 1: of Bonfire of the Vanities, and Joe actually kind of
Speaker 1: was part of that. Joe mysec tell us about kind
Speaker 1: of how you what small part you played in working
Speaker 1: or kind of working with or helping Tom Wolf, the
Speaker 1: author of Bonfire the Vanities.
Speaker 7: Oh, that was a that was a pricing pricing business.
Speaker 7: At one point, Sherman McCoy, the Star Bond salesman, is
Speaker 7: working on a transaction and I was looking at the
Speaker 7: galleys and you know, there was a reference there and
Speaker 7: instead of referring to the coupon and maturity, there was
Speaker 7: a reference to maturity, and it's like, what about those thirteens?
Speaker 7: What about those thirteen years? And I said, you know,
Speaker 7: I called Tom up and I said, you know, I
Speaker 7: think what they do is really talk about the coupon
Speaker 7: and the maturity here, you know, like the tens of
Speaker 7: thirty six or something like that. And he said, okay,
Speaker 7: what would it be? I said, all right, smart guy.
Speaker 7: I had to go get the Monroe calculator out and
Speaker 7: we kind of backed into it and it's the ten
Speaker 7: tens of whatever.
Speaker 1: So you're helping Tom Wolf with a little boy way
Speaker 1: those rates.
Speaker 2: That's him throwback already ten percent, Yes.
Speaker 1: Exactly, united fragrance. So again, big big book there on
Speaker 1: Wall Street in the eighties, Tom woff is there's a
Speaker 1: film coming out about him, isn't there?
Speaker 7: Yes, there is Radical Wolf by Richard Dewey, And it
Speaker 7: is a documentary about Tom Wolf.
Speaker 8: And it's funny, Michael.
Speaker 7: It's based on a Michael Lewis article in Vanity Fair
Speaker 7: back in two twenty fifteen, and Michael Lewis went to
Speaker 7: the New York Public Library where Tom Wolf has sold
Speaker 7: his papers and kind of dove in and look around
Speaker 7: a little bit and and wrote about it, and then
Speaker 7: wrote about going out and seeing Tom Wolf in Southampton.
Speaker 8: Uh.
Speaker 7: And it's it's just a it's a fascinating piece of work.
Speaker 7: And Dewey points out, well, actually Lewis points out that
Speaker 7: that Wolf really became quite a performer. And Dewey points
Speaker 7: out that that he he accumulated one hundred and fifty
Speaker 7: hours of a film, not including interviews he performed, and
Speaker 7: more than three thousand still photos, so you could see
Speaker 7: Tom loved the camera.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and he became I mean Tom Wolf became a
Speaker 1: player himself. I mean, you know, just all around the Hampton,
Speaker 1: New York City, all that, all that kind of stuff.
Speaker 2: Yes, indeed, Well, I will never forget reading The Electric
Speaker 2: kool Aid Acid Tests.
Speaker 5: Yep.
Speaker 2: That was like my first foray into the world of
Speaker 2: the Grateful Dead and kind of the Hell's Angels. And
Speaker 2: I think that's probably the book that made him initially famous, right,
Speaker 2: But then he had so many hits after that. He
Speaker 2: wrote The Right Stuff, which became a movie. Obviously Bonfire
Speaker 2: the Vanities became a movie as well. He must be
Speaker 2: one of the biggest, most successful American authors.
Speaker 7: Well, I would say though he was certainly the most
Speaker 7: probably the most interviewed and photographed of American writers, and
Speaker 7: that includes Hemingway and Mark Twain.
Speaker 1: Gorvadal So you actually went to this vault right in
Speaker 1: then your public library? Oh oh, and what were you
Speaker 1: looking for?
Speaker 7: You know? I was looking for this for the the
Speaker 7: origin of the quote. There's a there's a quote in
Speaker 7: The Bonfire of the Vanities and Sherman McCoy's little daughter Campbell. Yeah,
Speaker 7: bon Bond salesman h Campbell McCoy says, Daddy, what do
Speaker 7: you do? She's like six, I think or seven? Uh,
Speaker 7: And I got daddy, willly what do you do? And
Speaker 7: he's fumbling around, and all of a sudden, his wife,
Speaker 7: Judy says, no, no, I got this uh. And and she says, well, well, Daddy.
Speaker 7: What daddy does is, uh, he slices the cake and
Speaker 7: he hands it out and to different people, and Daddy
Speaker 7: gets to keep the crumbs.
Speaker 8: So Sherman is humiliated. Uh. And you know, later on
Speaker 8: like crumbs, well, because.
Speaker 1: He thinks he's the master of the universe.
Speaker 7: So I was in search of this of this quote,
Speaker 7: and I remember Tom Wolf told me over dinner at
Speaker 7: Ben Benson's. I asked Hi about his who came up
Speaker 7: with that? It was a very felicitous way of describing
Speaker 7: what bond salesman do. Uh, And he said Desmond Fitzgerald.
Speaker 7: And I, you know, I kind of I wanted, you know,
Speaker 7: I tucked that away. And then last year I was
Speaker 7: searching around to write a column and I said, gee,
Speaker 7: I wonder if I could find this that's home Wolf papers.
Speaker 7: And you know I didn't find that, but I found
Speaker 7: something else.
Speaker 2: What was it?
Speaker 7: Well, you know, Sherman McCoy begins as a writer. The
Speaker 7: role this series in Rolling Stone, you know, goes on
Speaker 7: for like twenty seven episodes or twenty four episodes, and
Speaker 7: Sherman requires a writer of and his famous book is
Speaker 7: called A Man in Slices, And of course later on
Speaker 7: he writes a novel. Tom wolf writes a novel called
Speaker 7: A Man in Full anyway, a Man in Slices. So
Speaker 7: I'm looking through Tom Wolfe's papers, and in February of
Speaker 7: nineteen eighty four, the headmaster of his school, and Christopher
Speaker 7: is and.
Speaker 1: Rich Richmond know it well, writes a letter and.
Speaker 7: Says, hey, you know the Tom Wolfe had been, as
Speaker 7: you pointed out, or a successful author. He uh, he
Speaker 7: had been a trustee for Saint Christoph of Saint Christo's
Speaker 7: for about ten years.
Speaker 1: So get in touch with a certain.
Speaker 8: So he wants it.
Speaker 7: So, so George McVay, who's the headmaster, says, could you
Speaker 7: get in touch with this guy, Kirk Maturne, who is
Speaker 7: then Atlizard freyer Uh, because he just gave us a
Speaker 7: very nice contribution and we're ramping up our endowment fundraising. Okay,
Speaker 7: great Tom does. Now Tom is already writing Bonfire the Vanities,
Speaker 7: but he writes a very nice letter to Kirk maturn
Speaker 7: Kirk maturn sends back a letter on the Blizard stationary saying, wow,
Speaker 7: so nice of you to write.
Speaker 8: Me, Thank you so much, and you know.
Speaker 7: Discusses their various lives and how they've what they do,
Speaker 7: and invites Tom to lunch at twenty one. Yea he
Speaker 7: now shuddered. Twenty one He and about five other guys, well,
Speaker 7: he says, Wall Street guy says, I'm not gonna put
Speaker 7: you on a podium.
Speaker 8: It's just an informal watch.
Speaker 7: So Tom goes has this fabulous time, writes some return like, wow,
Speaker 7: your friends were terrific and they introduced me to this
Speaker 7: place that you know, I couldn't imagine this whole.
Speaker 1: World of Wall Street and so therefore I'm going to
Speaker 1: change Sherman McCoy from a writer to a.
Speaker 7: Banker and a bond salesman. And just and I saw this,
Speaker 7: it was taking place, and you know, the papers themselves
Speaker 7: are they're organized, but not tremendously so, so you really
Speaker 7: have to you know what's going on here. Oh, here's
Speaker 7: another letter from Kirk mcturn and it's setting up and
Speaker 7: appointments for Tom, including.
Speaker 8: The UH Treasury auction at I want to say.
Speaker 1: Solon Brothers sure the biggest bond desk on the four
Speaker 1: and as his side. I worked for Kirk Return at
Speaker 1: Paine Webber my first job part of rotation, so it
Speaker 1: all comes full circle and he had me. I did
Speaker 1: my first bond trade at the behest of me.
Speaker 2: Do you think your kids are going to appreciate I
Speaker 2: mean the historical stuff that like people that you rubbed elbows.
Speaker 1: They have a couple they will Now they're creating their
Speaker 1: own history. They could care less about what I did.
Speaker 5: You're listening to the tape Cat's are live program Bloomberg
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Speaker 5: flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Speaker 2: I am excited to talk to Berner Hoyer, who's just
Speaker 2: come into the studio here. He is the president of
Speaker 2: the European Investment Bank, which is one of the biggest
Speaker 2: extra national supernational lenders in the world. They are the
Speaker 2: development arm of the European Union and so Wierner, thanks
Speaker 2: so much for joining us. You invest I mean, for example,
Speaker 2: I imagine you financed the eused green transition as well as
Speaker 2: I wonder do you have an interest in financing the
Speaker 2: defense industry of the European Union.
Speaker 9: Not really, we do quite a bit and when it
Speaker 9: comes to dual use activities and technology promotion. But we
Speaker 9: are not indirectly involved into arms of ammunition.
Speaker 2: I'm just because of the Russian invasion of Ukraine and
Speaker 2: we have Zelenski here.
Speaker 9: We are very highly engaged in Ukraine. There's two reasons.
Speaker 9: Number one, we of course active in Ukraine since the
Speaker 9: independence of Ukraine. But in twenty fourteen we did a
Speaker 9: step change because I said at that time, guys, this
Speaker 9: guy is not going to stop in Crimea, so this
Speaker 9: will go on. And then we stopped our business in
Speaker 9: Russia and diverted the funds who are available for Russia
Speaker 9: to the neighboring countries, to Moldova, Georgia, in particular to Ukraine.
Speaker 9: So when the war started, we were already there and
Speaker 9: we could beef up our activities there.
Speaker 2: So what kind of activities are those? I mean, what
Speaker 2: are you investing in there? And I guess you take
Speaker 2: equity stakes, you lend money, You have a number of
Speaker 2: different transmission maas you.
Speaker 9: Are a project finance here, so we invest into concrete
Speaker 9: projects and sometimes we are a little bit diverted because
Speaker 9: we see the military needs and all these things. But
Speaker 9: it's also an absolute necessity to keep the economy running,
Speaker 9: and the Ukrainians are doing a fantastic job under the
Speaker 9: circumstances under which they live, and that means the infrastrcture
Speaker 9: must work if you want to keep the economy rolling.
Speaker 9: Your bridges, your railroads, public transportation systems must work, and
Speaker 9: this is the key area of our activities. Also the
Speaker 9: health sector, which is vital in the best sense of
Speaker 9: the world, so we are very active in this field
Speaker 9: as well. Just restored the finance the restoration of the
Speaker 9: destroyed hospital in Odessa, So these are very important projects.
Speaker 1: The reconstruction eventual reconstruction in Ukraine. How do you envision
Speaker 1: the role of the European Investment Bank.
Speaker 9: Well, I think as far as the European Union will
Speaker 9: be involved, we will have to be involved quite a bit
Speaker 9: as well, and probably we are in a certain way
Speaker 9: in the lead. On the other hand, what I insist
Speaker 9: on now is there is no possibility, no responsible possibility,
Speaker 9: to wait for the end of the military confrontation before
Speaker 9: you begin with your reconstruction, because what is needed now
Speaker 9: is keep the economy rolling, keep the tax revenues coming in,
Speaker 9: keep the agricultural sector being able to export, and not
Speaker 9: overlooking the fact that Ukraine is also a very interesting
Speaker 9: partner country for industry. So these support for these support
Speaker 9: measures for Ukraine must take place now and not once
Speaker 9: one day. Hopefully the ink under a peace treaty is dry.
Speaker 2: How is the EIB financed?
Speaker 1: Do you sell bonds or.
Speaker 9: We sell bonds. We are selling between seventy and one
Speaker 9: hundred billion euros IIB bonds per year, considered part of them,
Speaker 9: by the way, green bonds nowadays. We were the pioneers
Speaker 9: and the issuings of green bonds, and so this is
Speaker 9: the basis of what we are doing. The capital endowment
Speaker 9: of the bank is big, but in comparison to our
Speaker 9: lending ridiculous. We have never seen more than twenty five
Speaker 9: billion euros in cash from our she elders, but we
Speaker 9: have a portfolio of almost six hundred billion euros. So
Speaker 9: the leverage effect is enormous, and that is due to
Speaker 9: the trust of the private the capital markets in the bank.
Speaker 9: And it's a technical experience. We are an engineering bank,
Speaker 9: bank that is endowed with fantastic people from science and technology,
Speaker 9: and this makes sure for the investors who give us
Speaker 9: their money that we invest into bankable but also technologically
Speaker 9: doable projects.
Speaker 2: By the way, the EIB was one of the first
Speaker 2: I guess supernational organizations to I'm pretty sure and correct
Speaker 2: me if I'm wrong Werner to issue a bond on
Speaker 2: the blockchain or to use issue a digital bond.
Speaker 9: In essence, yes, we are always trying to pioneer in
Speaker 9: these fields. And it's fascinating. When we issued the first
Speaker 9: green bonds and made sure that what labeled green is
Speaker 9: green and there is no green cheating or something like this,
Speaker 9: I think we were considered lunatic. And now this, this
Speaker 9: market is a trillion dollars heavy.
Speaker 1: Well what is I know, you guys refirst with the
Speaker 1: green bonds, what is that market conditions like today?
Speaker 9: Well, it is the market. The market's partners are very,
Speaker 9: very interested in this because it serves their own sustainability,
Speaker 9: not only image but reality. And nowadays everybody who invests
Speaker 9: in anything, into anything in Europe must be in line
Speaker 9: with these principles.
Speaker 2: In terms of the IR, I mean a lot of
Speaker 2: Europeans were unhappy about the kind of subsidizing and almost protectionist.
Speaker 2: I guess you could use that word bent of this legislation.
Speaker 2: Do you have an answer to that?
Speaker 1: In Europe?
Speaker 9: Well, the mixed feelings. Number one, I'm happy that under
Speaker 9: President Biden, the US has three detected climate change and sustainability,
Speaker 9: so this is very positive andredent. Biden takes the entire
Speaker 9: economy along. On the other hand, I'm not naive, and
Speaker 9: it comes to the sortion of competition then is something
Speaker 9: that affects US seriously. So we need to come to
Speaker 9: common terms for the United States of America. But I
Speaker 9: don't believe that trade war is the brightest thing to
Speaker 9: do now. It's more about finding synergies and taking all
Speaker 9: the challenges together.
Speaker 2: In fact, I was talking to Ola Collenius yesterday who
Speaker 2: was saying we was making similar statements saying that we
Speaker 2: really need to support global trade as well in order
Speaker 2: to kind of lift all of the boats right or
Speaker 2: to grow the pie.
Speaker 9: I completely agree.
Speaker 2: But right now the EU is looking into I guess
Speaker 2: ways if I'm going to say it without kind of
Speaker 2: camouflaging it, to block the import of Chinese electric vehicles
Speaker 2: to Europe, does that concern.
Speaker 9: You, Well, it would concern me if it would be
Speaker 9: so simple. I mean, Vice President Dombroskis of the European
Speaker 9: Commission is right now on his way to China to
Speaker 9: come to a reasonable terms with the Chinese. And I
Speaker 9: think there is between Europe and the United States, but
Speaker 9: also between Europe and China, some commonality of interests, and
Speaker 9: we should go for that.
Speaker 1: Because one of the things I know about, obviously the
Speaker 1: economies of Germany and other large European economies is perhaps
Speaker 1: a very strong trade relationship with China. Where do you
Speaker 1: guys fit into that? How do you think about that?
Speaker 9: Well, what we have learned from the terrible experience with
Speaker 9: the Ukraine War is that you better stay away from
Speaker 9: being too dependent on somebody, whether it's in security from
Speaker 9: one partner, whether it's from trade from one partner, or
Speaker 9: when it's from the provision of critical raw materials from
Speaker 9: another one. So we have to diversify in every aspect,
Speaker 9: and that's the lesson we have learned.
Speaker 2: I wonder about the green investment here in this country.
Speaker 2: ESG has become a negative term attached to any investment vehicle,
Speaker 2: but that's not the case in the rest of the
Speaker 2: world and do you expect to make real returns on
Speaker 2: these investments, I guess is the most important question outside
Speaker 2: of the climate issue.
Speaker 9: Well, for us, that's key. I mean, we are dependent
Speaker 9: totally on the financial markets which give us their resources.
Speaker 9: They trust us, They trust us because they know we
Speaker 9: are engineers and scientists driven bank So we make sure
Speaker 9: that a project that goes through our due diligence is bankable,
Speaker 9: is technologically feasible, and then at the end of the
Speaker 9: day it brings returns lucrative and I think we should
Speaker 9: always I mean in view of the time times where
Speaker 9: we talk about dooms scenarios from morning tonight, we tend
Speaker 9: more to the can do approach and say yes, if
Speaker 9: we develop the right technologies and yes we can do that,
Speaker 9: then we should be able to meet these challenges.
Speaker 2: We were just talking about sustainable energy with somebody who
Speaker 2: runs a nuclear fuel company, and I know a lot
Speaker 2: of people consider nuclear power to be safe and clean.
Speaker 2: Now that isn't really the view from Germany.
Speaker 9: Well from Germany it's a different view. I mean the
Speaker 9: politically it is also divided issue and the same goes
Speaker 9: for the European Union. So as a bank that is
Speaker 9: dependent upon the support of its shoulders, which are totally
Speaker 9: split on this issue. I don't take my head out.
Speaker 9: The statutes of the Bank do not keep us from
Speaker 9: the financing these things. In reality, we have never done it.
Speaker 9: What we have done is said a lot is investing
Speaker 9: into safety, security and into dual use opportunities.
Speaker 1: Just real quick, your successor what can you tell us
Speaker 1: about a potential successor?
Speaker 9: Well, I can only say one thing. I leave the
Speaker 9: bank with a very very good feeling. After twelve years,
Speaker 9: my mende is running out. The Member States have proposed
Speaker 9: five outstanding candidates. I'm very proud that we've brought the
Speaker 9: bank to a place where people of this caliber are
Speaker 9: interested in taking the lead.
Speaker 1: Do you think there needs to be a woman president?
Speaker 9: That would be wonderful, But of course we have beautiful,
Speaker 9: not beautiful, but perfectly excellent gentlemen in the race as well.
Speaker 9: So I don't take anything.
Speaker 2: About a liberal in the European sense. I know Lindner
Speaker 2: said he wants continuity, and you're an FTP.
Speaker 9: Liberals are always good people, all.
Speaker 1: Right, Erner Hoyer, thanks so much. Erner Hoyer, President European
Speaker 1: Investment Bank, Thanks.
Speaker 2: For listening to the Bloomberg Markets podcast. You can subscribe
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Speaker 2: platform you prefer. I'm Matt Miller. I'm on Twitter at
Speaker 2: Matt Miller nineteen seventy three.
Speaker 1: Fall Sweeney I'm on Twitter at pt Sweeney. Before the podcast,
Speaker 1: you can always catch us worldwide at Bloomberg Radio