WEBVTT - George Conway, Kate Shaw & Jason Stanley 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:04.200 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.400 --> 0:00:07.160 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.200 --> 0:00:11.560 today's best minds. And our f K Junior's son leaked 0:00:11.600 --> 0:00:14.520 a video showing Donald Trump talking to his dad saying 0:00:14.520 --> 0:00:17.520 that he would appoint him to his administration. In case 0:00:17.560 --> 0:00:21.400 you're wondering why our of K Junior is worrying for President, 0:00:21.520 --> 0:00:23.239 he is running to help Donald J. 0:00:23.320 --> 0:00:23.640 Trump. 0:00:23.720 --> 0:00:25.840 We have such a great show for you today. We 0:00:25.960 --> 0:00:30.360 brought in the big guns. Yale professor Jason Stanley stops 0:00:30.360 --> 0:00:32.800 by to talk to us about the parallels between creeping 0:00:32.880 --> 0:00:36.120 bapcism in Europe and the United States. But we keep 0:00:36.159 --> 0:00:39.400 it light, don't worry. Then we'll talk to strict scrutinies 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:42.760 Kate Shaw about the damage done by the Supreme Court 0:00:43.080 --> 0:00:48.479 this term. But first we have Atlantic columnist George Conway. 0:00:48.920 --> 0:00:55.280 Welcome back, too, Fast Politics, my friend, George Conway. 0:00:54.920 --> 0:00:57.960 Hello back, I'm two thousand. 0:00:58.400 --> 0:01:01.360 Yes, and yet we'd like more of you. 0:01:01.440 --> 0:01:04.040 George Conway. I'm sorry to tell you well, you know, 0:01:04.680 --> 0:01:07.920 not fair, I know, but so let's get going here 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:14.440 on the world's luckiest politician, especially legally, Can you explain 0:01:14.480 --> 0:01:18.840 to me what happened yesterday with Judge a lean cannon 0:01:19.080 --> 0:01:21.520 because that is it seemed inevitable. 0:01:21.560 --> 0:01:23.080 But still, wow, it. 0:01:23.040 --> 0:01:26.280 Did seem inevitable. And I sort of We had. 0:01:26.160 --> 0:01:29.959 This lawyer who wrote an amicus brief for a group 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:34.120 of lawyers pointing out that the argument that Trump was 0:01:34.160 --> 0:01:37.960 making about the question about the appointment of the special prosecutor, 0:01:37.959 --> 0:01:41.160 which is simply wrong. There's just no a challenge right 0:01:41.200 --> 0:01:46.200 for any number of reasons. And I remember joking to him, 0:01:46.560 --> 0:01:48.600 the lawyer who was actually going to go up and argue, 0:01:48.640 --> 0:01:50.480 which was very unusual for a district court to do, 0:01:50.560 --> 0:01:53.800 to have an amicus cury, I argue before a district court. 0:01:54.320 --> 0:01:57.920 I said, make sure you concede the motion, lose the motion? 0:01:58.120 --> 0:02:01.200 Wait why, because that way it would be something to 0:02:01.240 --> 0:02:04.120 take up to the Eleventh Circuit. See the judge that 0:02:04.200 --> 0:02:07.960 nothing was ever gonna happen. Okay, she was clearly playing 0:02:08.040 --> 0:02:12.360 for time and for whatever reason, motivated to help him. 0:02:12.760 --> 0:02:15.200 And I hate to say that, I hate to question 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:18.240 initial motives, but in that case, I really really do 0:02:18.440 --> 0:02:23.000 question her motives. I question confidence as well. But you know, 0:02:23.080 --> 0:02:26.320 she basically if you look back at everything she's done, 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.480 she's strung out the clock, and now she dismisses the 0:02:30.480 --> 0:02:32.120 case since it's going to take months for it to 0:02:32.120 --> 0:02:35.200 get back to her, if it ever does. And basically 0:02:35.320 --> 0:02:37.400 she feels like, Okay, I did my job, which was 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.200 the basically protect him from this case, and that's all 0:02:40.240 --> 0:02:42.720 she ever seemed to do by slowing it down by 0:02:43.480 --> 0:02:46.919 I mean, you look at the Menendez trial. That case 0:02:47.040 --> 0:02:50.400 was brought I don't know how much longer, way after 0:02:50.440 --> 0:02:55.560 the Marlago search for away, after the indictment of Trump. 0:02:55.600 --> 0:02:58.960 I think it's almost done. Yeah, it's in front. 0:02:58.760 --> 0:03:01.200 Of the jury right now. Charge as I understand it, 0:03:01.560 --> 0:03:05.120 and that you know, it's actually quite a very similar 0:03:05.320 --> 0:03:09.320 case in the following sense. You know, the FBI went 0:03:09.360 --> 0:03:12.519 to the guy's house and found all this stuff gold bar, 0:03:13.280 --> 0:03:16.480 the FBI went to Bump's house and found the stolen 0:03:16.520 --> 0:03:19.560 classified documents. I mean, it's a simple case. It's almost 0:03:19.560 --> 0:03:22.960 like a drug bus case. I mean, maybe maybe Menendez 0:03:23.000 --> 0:03:26.720 has a defense that you know, his wife was taking 0:03:26.760 --> 0:03:28.359 all this stuff and he didn't know about it, but 0:03:28.520 --> 0:03:31.240 I don't know. I mean, we'll see, we'll see how 0:03:31.320 --> 0:03:34.119 that comes out. But the point is that they got 0:03:34.120 --> 0:03:36.720 that case to try a really fast and that's the 0:03:36.760 --> 0:03:39.280 way it's supposed to work, and that's the way it 0:03:39.320 --> 0:03:41.960 should have worked here. But then, you know, what happened 0:03:41.960 --> 0:03:44.160 with her was in the summer of twenty It was 0:03:44.200 --> 0:03:47.600 twenty twenty two, for goodness sakes, right, you know, it 0:03:47.640 --> 0:03:50.080 was almost two years ago that the search warrant was 0:03:50.120 --> 0:03:53.720 executed at mar Alago, and they had engaged in two 0:03:53.800 --> 0:03:56.960 couple months of litigation about whether they could conduct an 0:03:57.000 --> 0:04:01.240 investigation because the District Court was infare with the investigation 0:04:01.680 --> 0:04:04.160 to the point where the Court of Appeals for the 0:04:04.160 --> 0:04:07.480 Eleventh Circuit had to reverse her twice. And you know, 0:04:07.560 --> 0:04:11.520 ever since then, she basically will hold motions and delay 0:04:11.680 --> 0:04:14.240 them and sit on them and then hold arguments on 0:04:14.240 --> 0:04:16.599 on motions on whether to hold motions. I mean, you know, 0:04:16.640 --> 0:04:20.080 she was just basically every procedural delay you could possibly 0:04:20.160 --> 0:04:24.360 imagine she used to help Trump. And I think it's 0:04:24.400 --> 0:04:27.120 partly there is some favoritism there, but there's also an 0:04:27.160 --> 0:04:29.360 incompetence there. I mean, that got to the point where 0:04:29.839 --> 0:04:32.279 I think The New York Times reported that the chief 0:04:32.360 --> 0:04:35.000 judge of the United States District Court for the Southern 0:04:35.040 --> 0:04:37.839 District of Flora, who is a Bush appointee, whose name 0:04:37.960 --> 0:04:41.320 was actually floated in I think two thousand and five 0:04:41.400 --> 0:04:44.640 or two thousand and six in it went in the 0:04:44.720 --> 0:04:48.160 run up to the choice that I think to replace 0:04:48.400 --> 0:04:52.040 Sandrade O'Connor at the seat that ultimately first was going 0:04:52.080 --> 0:04:53.800 to go to Roberts and then Ranquist died and then 0:04:53.839 --> 0:04:56.560 it ultimately went to Aledo. She was one of the 0:04:56.640 --> 0:04:59.479 names that had been floated for that list. She's a 0:04:59.560 --> 0:05:01.719 very good judge by all accounts. And the point about 0:05:01.760 --> 0:05:04.960 it is she tried to get this woman to procures herself, 0:05:05.200 --> 0:05:08.320 Judge Cannon to accuse herself, and then apparently another judge 0:05:08.320 --> 0:05:10.200 did that also because they just felt that she just 0:05:10.279 --> 0:05:13.800 wasn't handling it correctly. And it's amazing. You never ever 0:05:13.880 --> 0:05:17.120 hear that internal stuff happening in a court, and the 0:05:17.120 --> 0:05:19.000 fact that it happened to hear it, I mean, it 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.000 just doesn't happen, first of all, and the fact that 0:05:21.000 --> 0:05:23.320 it here is just amazing. And the fact that it 0:05:23.360 --> 0:05:26.440 happened here and it got into the newspaper means it 0:05:26.560 --> 0:05:28.880 was just the talk of a courthouse. And that's you know, 0:05:28.960 --> 0:05:32.560 courthouse is our gossipy places. I'll tell you that right. Anyway, 0:05:32.560 --> 0:05:34.840 The point is I'm rambling on here. I mean, if 0:05:35.279 --> 0:05:37.040 we were television, we you know the thing as it 0:05:37.080 --> 0:05:39.560 should have been like for ten seconds now Now now I. 0:05:39.600 --> 0:05:42.920 Think people are interested in sort of the story behind it. 0:05:43.000 --> 0:05:45.640 I mean, she just just delayed this case and delayed 0:05:45.640 --> 0:05:49.200 this case and delayed this case. And the reason why 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:51.240 I made that argument to that lawyer, say, mat me, 0:05:51.320 --> 0:05:54.599 the joke half joking really that we want to lose 0:05:54.680 --> 0:05:56.960 this motion was so that you could go up to 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.800 the Eleventh Circuit. And the circuit's going to reverse again. 0:06:00.040 --> 0:06:02.080 I don't think there are certainly not. I mean they're not. 0:06:02.360 --> 0:06:04.040 I could go up to the Supreme Court. I don't 0:06:04.040 --> 0:06:05.599 think so. But if it does, I mean I've been 0:06:05.600 --> 0:06:06.960 wrong about the Supreme Court so far. 0:06:07.080 --> 0:06:09.760 Yeah. Are you shocked at how partisan the Supreme Court is? 0:06:09.839 --> 0:06:12.559 I'm going to be careful with motives, Okay. I think 0:06:12.880 --> 0:06:15.800 the Supreme Court decision in the immunity case is raw 0:06:15.920 --> 0:06:18.719 for a lot of different reasons. I do understand the 0:06:18.760 --> 0:06:23.480 need to protect the presidency to some extent from baseless prosecutions, 0:06:23.480 --> 0:06:25.719 but that's a whole other story. Anyway. The point about 0:06:25.800 --> 0:06:28.960 this is there's a rule and unwritten rule in the 0:06:29.000 --> 0:06:33.240 Eleventh Circuit which is the federal judicial circuit that includes Flora. 0:06:33.720 --> 0:06:36.640 That says basically that if a judge screws something up 0:06:36.760 --> 0:06:39.360 three times in the same direction, they reserve the right 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:40.920 to take the case reverse it. 0:06:41.040 --> 0:06:43.040 So could they take the case and reverse it? 0:06:43.200 --> 0:06:44.840 Yeah, they're gonna this is going to go up. 0:06:44.880 --> 0:06:46.080 And what do you think will happen? 0:06:46.279 --> 0:06:48.360 The case was a dismissal and it's going to get reversed. 0:06:48.839 --> 0:06:51.200 I mean, there's a clear precedent that there's a statutory 0:06:51.240 --> 0:06:54.000 basis for the appointment, and there's no basis to conclude 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:58.039 that the appointment is unconstitutional because this is an inferior officer. 0:06:58.200 --> 0:07:00.440 Do you think then the Supreme Court will step in 0:07:00.839 --> 0:07:01.599 and save him. 0:07:01.680 --> 0:07:03.080 I don't think so, not this one. 0:07:03.120 --> 0:07:05.440 Because it's so clear cut, or. 0:07:05.480 --> 0:07:06.760 It's just absolutely clear cut. 0:07:06.839 --> 0:07:07.000 Right. 0:07:07.040 --> 0:07:10.640 The United States against Nixon implicitly upheld the very same 0:07:10.720 --> 0:07:14.400 kind of mechanism where and the statute Congress has written 0:07:14.520 --> 0:07:17.880 in statute that basically, the Attorney General has the power 0:07:17.880 --> 0:07:22.480 to appoint whoever to prosecute cases, and that's his producative 0:07:22.640 --> 0:07:25.400 and it's totally constitutional on the appointmance cause of the 0:07:25.400 --> 0:07:29.080 Constitution because the person being appointed there is an inferior officer. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.520 He reports to the Attorney General. He can be fire 0:07:31.520 --> 0:07:34.480 Attorney General. Office can be terminated by regulation of the 0:07:34.640 --> 0:07:37.560 by regulation issued by the Attorney General. He can be 0:07:37.680 --> 0:07:41.320 ordered to stand down. He's an inferior officer. And the 0:07:41.360 --> 0:07:44.360 only you know, under the constitution, the only officers that 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:46.920 are required to be appointed by the President and confirmed 0:07:46.960 --> 0:07:50.360 by the Senate are so called the non inferior offices 0:07:50.440 --> 0:07:53.840 on principal officers, and those are basically cabinet members who 0:07:53.880 --> 0:07:56.760 directly report to the President. And that's that's just different. 0:07:56.880 --> 0:07:59.920 So there's just no issue here. But she got a 0:08:00.120 --> 0:08:02.760 role and it'll get reversed. But the point is that 0:08:02.800 --> 0:08:05.760 she's run out the clock right right, even a quick 0:08:05.800 --> 0:08:08.520 appeal on which I don't think is going to be 0:08:08.560 --> 0:08:11.000 warranted here for any reason. I mean, it's going to 0:08:11.000 --> 0:08:13.520 take it's going to take several months. So I don't 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:16.680 see you this case. But this case wasn't going anywhere 0:08:16.720 --> 0:08:20.960 anyway because she had she had sufficiently delayed. I mean, basically, 0:08:21.160 --> 0:08:22.360 now I don't have to do any work on it. 0:08:22.400 --> 0:08:24.320 I can just kick it because now it's come back 0:08:24.320 --> 0:08:25.680 to me. If it ever comes back to me again, 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:28.720 it'll be twenty twenty five, and either. 0:08:28.840 --> 0:08:30.320 Trump has won or he hasn't. 0:08:30.800 --> 0:08:35.480 Pears. So's that's what happened there, and it's very disappointing 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:36.280 and very disturbing. 0:08:36.679 --> 0:08:41.440 The Trumps people are already talking about her as the 0:08:41.520 --> 0:08:43.440 Supreme Court justice. 0:08:43.960 --> 0:08:45.079 I'm sure you've seen this. 0:08:45.320 --> 0:08:47.480 She probably be the first appointment he'd make to the 0:08:47.480 --> 0:08:48.960 Eleventh Circuit Jesus. 0:08:49.120 --> 0:08:49.920 I mean, it's crazy. 0:08:50.200 --> 0:08:52.360 This feels like a very dark moment for a lot 0:08:52.400 --> 0:08:55.880 of Democrats, right, because I mean, just from my point 0:08:55.880 --> 0:08:58.840 of view, Vance is really a scary choice, right, it 0:08:58.920 --> 0:09:02.160 feels like a very dark We've had this terrible crushing 0:09:02.280 --> 0:09:06.080 Biden is old news cycle, then we had this really 0:09:06.840 --> 0:09:09.280 just kind of grim. 0:09:08.520 --> 0:09:11.320 The thing that you should be pleased about with Jade Vance. 0:09:11.720 --> 0:09:15.560 He's a total shameless opportunist, right, so explain he doesn't 0:09:15.559 --> 0:09:18.559 actually believe in any Yes, that is true. Might think 0:09:18.559 --> 0:09:22.280 we've estaffed back over the years, so you know, Trump 0:09:22.320 --> 0:09:24.640 isn't a true believe either in it from themselves. I mean, 0:09:24.720 --> 0:09:26.880 that's just cynically. You might actually be able to take 0:09:26.920 --> 0:09:27.840 some solows in there. 0:09:27.960 --> 0:09:30.800 But what I think is interesting about Vance is that 0:09:31.040 --> 0:09:33.840 I'm not convinced that he grows the electorate. Like as 0:09:33.880 --> 0:09:36.960 a woman, there's nothing about jd. Vance that appeals to me. 0:09:37.160 --> 0:09:37.800 I agree with that. 0:09:37.880 --> 0:09:40.400 I mean it was he was not the logical choice 0:09:40.400 --> 0:09:41.520 from a political standard. 0:09:41.640 --> 0:09:45.720 If you were gaming this out politically, who in your mind? See, 0:09:45.800 --> 0:09:48.600 I think like, had he pick Nikki Haley. 0:09:48.480 --> 0:09:50.840 Yeah, Haley would have been great for him. But of 0:09:50.840 --> 0:09:52.960 course Haley would have been great for the Republican Party, 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.800 even though it might have issues with her. She would 0:09:55.840 --> 0:09:58.439 have won this election in the landslide, which is absolutely insane, 0:09:58.440 --> 0:10:02.240 Which shows you the Republican parties insane even after all 0:10:02.320 --> 0:10:04.280 that has happened, you know, five p. Thirty eight and 0:10:04.320 --> 0:10:07.480 you could take them for them for what they're worth. 0:10:07.600 --> 0:10:11.680 I mean basically says it's like fifty one percent chance 0:10:11.720 --> 0:10:13.160 of I forget who. 0:10:13.040 --> 0:10:14.880 Winning, right, but it's very tight. 0:10:15.000 --> 0:10:18.880 Yeah, and it's all gonna be determined by turnout. And 0:10:19.320 --> 0:10:21.679 you know, but the point is that if Haley. 0:10:21.400 --> 0:10:23.920 Had been the nominee, it would have been loved in 0:10:24.000 --> 0:10:25.120 a five or ten point plot. 0:10:25.480 --> 0:10:26.240 Yes, but she's not. 0:10:26.520 --> 0:10:28.280 Oh no. But that's the point is that's that's how 0:10:28.320 --> 0:10:31.560 crazy the Republican Party is. I mean, they didn't you know, 0:10:31.880 --> 0:10:34.560 they had so many obvious choices that took to make 0:10:34.640 --> 0:10:36.960 and they had to go with this guy. Why it's 0:10:37.000 --> 0:10:37.800 just the same. 0:10:37.640 --> 0:10:39.800 Right, I mean, part of it is they just don't 0:10:39.960 --> 0:10:43.079 have a real Like what I was struck by when 0:10:43.120 --> 0:10:46.080 you listened to Vance and you I watched last night. 0:10:46.120 --> 0:10:49.200 I watched the whole thing. Thank you, I win for 0:10:49.320 --> 0:10:50.200 watching that whole thing. 0:10:50.679 --> 0:10:53.560 And what was interesting to me about that night was 0:10:53.600 --> 0:10:57.360 that it was the rhetoric was really toned down because 0:10:57.400 --> 0:10:59.520 you had a lot of really crazy people up there. 0:10:59.559 --> 0:11:03.640 You had Amber Rose, who's a she's an only fans, 0:11:04.040 --> 0:11:06.920 she's famous for having dated Kanye. She has a tattoo 0:11:06.960 --> 0:11:09.320 on her forehead. I thought I was seeing something. I 0:11:09.400 --> 0:11:11.840 was like, I wrote to a political friend and I 0:11:11.920 --> 0:11:14.560 was like, it looks like there's something on her forehead. 0:11:14.640 --> 0:11:16.360 It's a tattoo. Right. 0:11:16.800 --> 0:11:19.439 I always feel like face tattoos should be where we 0:11:19.640 --> 0:11:22.079 call it off. But I mean, like tattoo anywhere else 0:11:22.120 --> 0:11:23.839 but your face. Right, What I was. 0:11:23.760 --> 0:11:26.280 Struck by was the rhetoric was really toned down. 0:11:26.360 --> 0:11:29.440 But for them, if you tone down the rhetoric, there's 0:11:29.480 --> 0:11:32.679 nothing else, right, Like, there's no policy. So it's not 0:11:32.720 --> 0:11:34.920 like Amber Rose is up there talking about policy. She 0:11:35.040 --> 0:11:37.520 was like, I was a Democrat, now I'm a Republican. 0:11:38.120 --> 0:11:40.880 Republicans love people, we all love each other. 0:11:41.360 --> 0:11:43.600 But it's a cult. That's the nature of a personality cult. 0:11:43.640 --> 0:11:46.000 It's not a political party. It's personality cult. That's what 0:11:46.040 --> 0:11:46.840 it is essentially. 0:11:46.920 --> 0:11:50.800 But Jadie Vance is like he is a recent convert 0:11:50.840 --> 0:11:53.679 to the cult. And also it feels to me like 0:11:53.720 --> 0:11:56.640 and I don't quite understand this. He does seem so 0:11:56.720 --> 0:11:59.520 ambitious that he would invoke the twenty fifth Amendment on 0:11:59.559 --> 0:12:00.520 Trump if he could. 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:04.559 He's an opportunity. It's sort of like Star Wars. We 0:12:04.840 --> 0:12:07.480 only end up with Sith Lord at a time because 0:12:07.760 --> 0:12:10.440 one ends up killing the other. Right, I wouldn't trust 0:12:10.559 --> 0:12:14.360 jd Vance as far as control, that's my take. But 0:12:14.640 --> 0:12:16.720 that's easier said than not. It's hard to get the 0:12:16.760 --> 0:12:20.520 emperor alone. I mean, look at how cowed the cabinet was. 0:12:20.559 --> 0:12:21.920 I mean, you'll talk about the twenties froth. 0:12:21.800 --> 0:12:24.360 A meenment, right, No, it's true. I mean, that's a 0:12:24.400 --> 0:12:26.600 really good point. The president has a lot of. 0:12:26.559 --> 0:12:30.079 Power, pa nearly a one who has such a committed 0:12:30.720 --> 0:12:34.000 or group of supporters who are completely insane. We saw 0:12:34.040 --> 0:12:37.920 that in twenty twenty one January. After January sixth, I mean, 0:12:38.120 --> 0:12:40.440 there should have been no question the guy was not 0:12:40.559 --> 0:12:43.240 in any condition to execute the office president of the 0:12:43.360 --> 0:12:45.559 United States, you know, And there were discussions on the 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:47.719 cabinet members, but they were terrified to do it right 0:12:47.760 --> 0:12:50.280 and Pence within Pennsy would have had to go along. 0:12:50.400 --> 0:12:53.400 I wouldn't trust JD. Vance, but Trump has seen enough 0:12:53.600 --> 0:12:56.960 sycophanic behavior from the guy that he knows that he 0:12:57.120 --> 0:12:59.920 feels he can keep the guy under control. For Trump, weird, 0:13:00.559 --> 0:13:04.400 Pence was the better choice. He doesn't have that kind 0:13:04.400 --> 0:13:07.440 of ambition. He's ambitious enough to sacrifice his principles, as 0:13:07.480 --> 0:13:10.600 we've seen, but he does have some kind of war 0:13:10.800 --> 0:13:14.160 sense of right and wrong. He just gets confused about 0:13:14.160 --> 0:13:16.240 it from time to time. I don't think Vance has 0:13:16.280 --> 0:13:19.280 that core, since I think Vance is purely cynical in 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.040 the way that how frankly appreciates. 0:13:21.240 --> 0:13:25.480 But what's interesting about if you look at the choice 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:29.320 of Pence versus the choice of Vans, Pence was really, 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:33.240 you know, he needed the evangelicals. Pence got him the evangelicals. 0:13:33.280 --> 0:13:36.080 Then Pence was so good at getting him the evangelicals 0:13:36.120 --> 0:13:37.600 that Trump didn't need Pence anymore. 0:13:37.960 --> 0:13:40.280 But when it comes to JD. 0:13:40.440 --> 0:13:42.000 Vans and say it's nothing. 0:13:42.040 --> 0:13:45.360 He doesn't grow the electorate. Like working class men love Trump. 0:13:45.480 --> 0:13:48.760 They're not going to love him more because of Jade Vance, 0:13:49.040 --> 0:13:51.800 are they. I mean, unless I'm missing something, No. 0:13:52.200 --> 0:13:55.000 He doesn't pull off the you know, he came into 0:13:55.040 --> 0:13:58.960 this into the media environment after writing that book Killbilly Elergy, 0:13:59.280 --> 0:14:01.600 but he's not really one of them, and for any 0:14:01.679 --> 0:14:05.400 number of reasons, and he doesn't have the same kind 0:14:05.559 --> 0:14:07.520 a pull. I think he's not going to have the 0:14:07.520 --> 0:14:11.120 same kind of magnetism to the core MAGA base that 0:14:11.120 --> 0:14:13.840 that Trump does. He turns off women, there's no question 0:14:13.920 --> 0:14:16.599 about that. I think. I don't think he's he's attracted 0:14:16.640 --> 0:14:17.880 candidate to a lot of women. 0:14:18.080 --> 0:14:19.680 I mean, not to me, But what do I know? 0:14:20.040 --> 0:14:22.080 Right, I got an earful from a lot of people 0:14:22.160 --> 0:14:25.240 yesterday about that. It's like they couldn't believe women. They 0:14:25.240 --> 0:14:27.240 couldn't believe like, well, I wouldn't have picked him. That's 0:14:27.280 --> 0:14:28.080 that's that's good. 0:14:28.160 --> 0:14:29.400 That's just good for them. 0:14:29.680 --> 0:14:32.880 Yeah, go on, there's a joke somebody made about you 0:14:32.920 --> 0:14:35.120 think people from Pennsylvania like people from Ohio. 0:14:35.200 --> 0:14:35.880 They don't rare. 0:14:36.800 --> 0:14:41.080 Yeah, yeah, So I don't see what he ASTs Urubo. 0:14:41.160 --> 0:14:44.200 At least you you you know, you can lock down Florida. 0:14:44.320 --> 0:14:47.600 Florida probably will go Republican, but it's you. You never know. 0:14:47.720 --> 0:14:50.960 Florida's were logical choice with somebody else, But the best 0:14:51.040 --> 0:14:53.920 choice would have been a Nikki Haley, right, But he 0:14:53.960 --> 0:14:57.840 would never abide by that because he would never She's 0:14:57.840 --> 0:14:59.000 not sycophanic enough. 0:14:59.200 --> 0:15:02.720 Well, and also so she can't really exist in mega 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:05.160 right because the misogyny is the point. 0:15:05.560 --> 0:15:08.080 And there's also racism. And we remember one of the 0:15:08.120 --> 0:15:11.840 things that Trump was quoted as saying, I forget who 0:15:11.880 --> 0:15:15.000 reported it, he said that Nicky Haley has a complexion problem. 0:15:15.080 --> 0:15:19.320 Right, And the people discovering that Vance's wife is not 0:15:19.480 --> 0:15:23.800 white are having that same conversation online right now in 0:15:23.920 --> 0:15:28.680 varying degrees of disgusting. So there you go, just a 0:15:28.800 --> 0:15:32.280 completely crazy you run on racism and then. 0:15:32.520 --> 0:15:36.240 Right you look at the headline on Drudge jduv called 0:15:36.400 --> 0:15:41.200 Trump voters idiots. Sounds kind of elitist to the. 0:15:41.280 --> 0:15:46.960 Actually, George Conway, we got some legal, we got some political. 0:15:47.600 --> 0:15:49.520 I still think that Joe Biden can do this. 0:15:50.000 --> 0:15:51.040 I did that. 0:15:51.120 --> 0:15:54.600 If you make this election about Donald Trump, Democrats can win. 0:15:54.920 --> 0:15:57.000 That's what I've been saying. I've been seeing it publicly 0:15:57.080 --> 0:16:00.280 or privately, but somebody's got to actually do that, and 0:16:00.520 --> 0:16:01.920 it's got happling. See it. 0:16:02.240 --> 0:16:05.040 Well, I hope it happens, and I hope that you 0:16:05.080 --> 0:16:06.040 are involved in it. 0:16:06.360 --> 0:16:08.520 George Conway. I hope you'll come back. 0:16:08.840 --> 0:16:09.400 I shall. 0:16:11.960 --> 0:16:14.640 Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how 0:16:14.680 --> 0:16:18.000 awful Trump's second term could be and will be if 0:16:18.000 --> 0:16:21.000 he wins, Well, so are we, which is why we 0:16:21.280 --> 0:16:24.080 partnered with iHeart to make a limited series with the 0:16:24.120 --> 0:16:27.400 experts on what a disaster trump Ism would be for 0:16:27.440 --> 0:16:30.480 America's future. Right now, you can find the first episode 0:16:30.480 --> 0:16:33.440 by looking up Molly John Fast Project twenty twenty five 0:16:33.560 --> 0:16:34.320 on YouTube. 0:16:34.440 --> 0:16:35.840 If you're thinking you. 0:16:35.840 --> 0:16:40.000 Are more of a podcast person than a YouTube person, 0:16:40.560 --> 0:16:42.440 all you have to do is look it up on 0:16:42.480 --> 0:16:46.840 YouTube and hit play and then lock the screen and 0:16:46.880 --> 0:16:49.440 then you can listen to it as a podcast. New 0:16:49.480 --> 0:16:52.040 episodes are dropping in the next few weeks as well. 0:16:52.320 --> 0:16:55.280 We need to educate Americans on what Trump's second term 0:16:55.320 --> 0:16:57.800 would do to this country, on what would happen in 0:16:57.840 --> 0:16:59.800 Trump's second term and what it would do to this 0:17:00.640 --> 0:17:04.640 Please watch and help US spread the word. Jason Stanley 0:17:04.720 --> 0:17:07.040 is a professor at Yale as well as the author 0:17:07.200 --> 0:17:12.720 of a racing history. Welcome back to Fast Politics. My friend, 0:17:12.760 --> 0:17:15.200 and you actually are my friend. We do hang out, 0:17:15.359 --> 0:17:17.080 which is amazing because I feel like I don't have 0:17:17.119 --> 0:17:17.719 any friends. 0:17:17.960 --> 0:17:20.119 Jason Stanley, Hi, Mollie. 0:17:20.200 --> 0:17:23.720 It's always wonderful to be in conversation with you, even 0:17:23.840 --> 0:17:27.160 or perhaps especially in these dramatic times. 0:17:27.480 --> 0:17:29.120 So you're a fancy Yale professor. 0:17:29.280 --> 0:17:31.959 So because you're a fancy Yale professor, you spent your 0:17:31.960 --> 0:17:36.119 summer doing what fancy Yale professors do, which is teaching 0:17:36.160 --> 0:17:37.639 and lecturing overseas. 0:17:37.960 --> 0:17:40.680 You've been in Ukraine, You've been in. 0:17:41.520 --> 0:17:43.920 Germany, Germany and Austria. 0:17:44.000 --> 0:17:45.359 So what's the mood. 0:17:46.000 --> 0:17:50.919 Well over there different moods in different places. In Ukraine, obviously, 0:17:51.000 --> 0:17:54.639 the mood is grim. I was in Ukraine teaching in 0:17:54.800 --> 0:17:58.479 August twenty twenty three at the very beginning stages of 0:17:58.560 --> 0:18:02.280 the so called counter Offend, and the mood then was positive. 0:18:02.920 --> 0:18:08.440 It's turned very grim. Obviously. The US elections bear directly 0:18:08.520 --> 0:18:12.440 on that. The Ukrainians know what happens if the US 0:18:12.600 --> 0:18:16.359 gives up on them. They know that their democracy doesn't 0:18:16.440 --> 0:18:19.240 just come to an end. But if anyone has seen 0:18:19.400 --> 0:18:23.399 pictures of what Russia does to the cities it invades, 0:18:23.960 --> 0:18:28.920 it absolutely levels them. So Ukrainians know that they can 0:18:29.000 --> 0:18:33.200 expect that if the US withdraws aid and they can 0:18:33.280 --> 0:18:39.000 expect an emboldened Russia that will have much more international 0:18:39.080 --> 0:18:43.320 power if they managed to win this war. So that 0:18:43.480 --> 0:18:46.359 was Ukraine. I expect that's going to be a topic 0:18:46.480 --> 0:18:49.840 of much more discussion now that Trump has selected JD. 0:18:50.000 --> 0:18:54.479 Vance as his vice presidential running mink vance and is, 0:18:55.000 --> 0:18:59.640 like many of these far right politicians worldwide, is partial 0:18:59.720 --> 0:19:03.600 to Putin. So that's the Ukraine part of the story. 0:19:03.680 --> 0:19:04.480 I mean, they're waiting. 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:07.000 So Trump is also partial to Putin. 0:19:07.320 --> 0:19:11.359 Absolutely, so now you have two politicians. Vance in particular 0:19:11.520 --> 0:19:15.680 is just one of his signature issues is not caring 0:19:15.720 --> 0:19:20.320 about what happens to Ukraine. So Ukrainians are defending democracy. 0:19:20.440 --> 0:19:24.800 They're defending their democracy, and they're defending democracy worldwide. This 0:19:24.920 --> 0:19:27.000 is a very grim time for them. 0:19:27.200 --> 0:19:28.760 I just want you to expand on this. 0:19:29.000 --> 0:19:32.879 Russia rolling into Ukraine is not ultimately terrible for Ukraine. 0:19:32.960 --> 0:19:34.440 But one of the reasons why they're getting all the 0:19:34.480 --> 0:19:37.960 support is not because of Ukraine is so important to 0:19:38.000 --> 0:19:41.760 the world. Though they are, you know whatever, They're relevant 0:19:41.800 --> 0:19:44.480 and important. But part of the reason they're doing this 0:19:44.560 --> 0:19:48.160 is because it feels very clear to a lot of people. 0:19:48.200 --> 0:19:50.479 And I think I actually heard Joe Biden say this 0:19:50.560 --> 0:19:54.399 is that once Putin is able to take Ukraine, he 0:19:54.480 --> 0:19:58.200 will take Moldova, he will take these other smaller countries, 0:19:58.240 --> 0:20:01.560 and sooner or later he will roll into Poland. And 0:20:01.600 --> 0:20:04.600 that a lot of this is about stopping Putin's war 0:20:04.760 --> 0:20:07.720 of aggression before he gets to Europe. 0:20:07.840 --> 0:20:11.040 Well, so there's multiple things here. It's whether or not 0:20:11.160 --> 0:20:14.320 you think Putin will eventually threaten Poland, and he may 0:20:14.520 --> 0:20:17.840 very well. Putin is one of the central figures and 0:20:18.080 --> 0:20:22.679 funding and backing the attack on democracy worldwide. If US 0:20:22.800 --> 0:20:26.560 gives up on Ukraine, it puts Putin in an immensely 0:20:26.720 --> 0:20:31.119 powerful international position. It shows to autocrats all over the 0:20:31.160 --> 0:20:33.760 world that they will have a free hand, that the 0:20:33.840 --> 0:20:37.359 United States will not protect democracies. It sends a signal 0:20:37.440 --> 0:20:40.360 to China that they can do what they want with Taiwan. 0:20:40.880 --> 0:20:45.639 Whereas if Ukraine does win the war, it substantially weakens 0:20:45.720 --> 0:20:50.160 Putin's power and say on the international scene. So Essentially, 0:20:50.240 --> 0:20:53.080 it really is the way we have to see the 0:20:53.119 --> 0:20:57.359 world right now is as a fight between a unified 0:20:57.960 --> 0:21:02.360 anti democratic international as we saw in the late twenties 0:21:02.359 --> 0:21:08.000 and thirties, the fascist Internationale and forces that support that 0:21:08.040 --> 0:21:13.600 are trying to defend replacing leaders by elections right system, 0:21:13.640 --> 0:21:17.000 and Ukraine replaces leaders by elections. It's one of the 0:21:17.040 --> 0:21:19.320 few countries in that part of the world that does. 0:21:19.680 --> 0:21:24.240 Putin's Russia and Putin himself are the main supporters of 0:21:24.600 --> 0:21:28.400 attacking systems where you can replace leaders by elections, and 0:21:28.440 --> 0:21:33.200 so allowing Putin to shut down Ukraine's democracy and adding 0:21:33.440 --> 0:21:38.040 Ukraine to essentially his empire will not only, as you 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:42.240 rightly point out, increase the military threat to Europe, but 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.600 it means that the forces that want to end replacing 0:21:46.680 --> 0:21:49.679 leaders by elections will be massively empowered. 0:21:49.840 --> 0:21:52.159 One of the things that was very hardening is what 0:21:52.240 --> 0:21:55.320 happened in France. That was exactly what you're talking about, 0:21:55.320 --> 0:22:00.840 this pro democracy coalition getting together and defeating the far right. 0:22:01.040 --> 0:22:02.960 Can you explain that to us. 0:22:03.440 --> 0:22:07.919 Yes, So Europe faces many of the same forces that 0:22:08.119 --> 0:22:10.919 we do. I mean, really it's an international fight, and 0:22:10.960 --> 0:22:13.199 in my month in Europe that was very clear to me, 0:22:13.320 --> 0:22:20.440 and I just smoothly rolled into lectures, interviews, media discussions 0:22:21.280 --> 0:22:28.040 about far right anti democratic movements that are vilifying immigrants, 0:22:28.359 --> 0:22:33.560 that are vilifying LGBT, pushing for restrictions on abortion. There's 0:22:33.560 --> 0:22:36.359 a lot of very similar issues happening, which is no 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:40.680 surprise given that we have an international anti democratic movement. Now, 0:22:40.680 --> 0:22:43.480 what we saw in France is it took people by 0:22:43.520 --> 0:22:47.240 surprise in a good way. Is we saw people who 0:22:47.320 --> 0:22:50.399 usually bicker with each other unifying. So what we have 0:22:50.480 --> 0:22:53.280 in the United States is we have we're seeing people 0:22:53.600 --> 0:22:56.280 who don't agree with each other unifying. On the right, 0:22:56.560 --> 0:23:01.160 we see LGBT billionaires like Peter Thiel supporting Christian nationalists. 0:23:01.240 --> 0:23:04.919 We see different forces lining up behind an an anti 0:23:04.920 --> 0:23:09.640 democratic movement. We need different forces who disagree with each 0:23:09.680 --> 0:23:13.080 other lining up to defend democracy. And that's what you 0:23:13.119 --> 0:23:16.879 saw in France, different left wing parties that usually bicker 0:23:16.960 --> 0:23:21.480 and argue with each other deciding to run as a coalition. 0:23:21.760 --> 0:23:25.880 So you had, in a shock, a really complete defeat. 0:23:25.920 --> 0:23:29.159 I mean the pen she ended up with a large 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:31.840 amount of seats, but I mean it was a shock. 0:23:32.000 --> 0:23:34.600 I think they finished third out of the three major 0:23:34.680 --> 0:23:39.399 parties going into that election. Everyone was expecting the worst. 0:23:39.840 --> 0:23:46.240 You had, you know, usually divided left, unifying for democracy. 0:23:46.280 --> 0:23:49.600 And I just think it's a symbol for the world 0:23:49.640 --> 0:23:52.800 of what you need to do to beat autocracy in 0:23:52.840 --> 0:23:54.840 the UK, because. 0:23:54.600 --> 0:23:57.000 The thing is, I feel like there are so many 0:23:57.080 --> 0:24:02.359 narratives that inadvertently or or perhaps purposefully, I'd like to 0:24:02.359 --> 0:24:07.080 think it's Inaverton want to sort of try to sort 0:24:07.119 --> 0:24:12.320 of pump up the narrative that this fall to autocracy 0:24:12.840 --> 0:24:17.160 is inevitable. But the UK is a really good example 0:24:17.320 --> 0:24:20.919 of they really did reject you know, they rejected gb News, 0:24:21.000 --> 0:24:24.480 which was a news station started by Rupert Murdoch to 0:24:24.560 --> 0:24:28.800 try to sell them Brexit, and then they rejected this 0:24:29.000 --> 0:24:30.200 far right party too. 0:24:30.480 --> 0:24:33.120 Can you talk about the UK it's more complice because 0:24:33.160 --> 0:24:37.639 the Conservatives just destroyed the country and take an enormous 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:41.200 amount of reality denial to look at the UKA and 0:24:41.240 --> 0:24:46.639 not just see that the Conservatives just utterly destroyed the 0:24:46.760 --> 0:24:50.359 UK and so fourteen years of rule and it's just like, 0:24:50.640 --> 0:24:56.720 you know, it's just on along so many dimensions. The 0:24:56.840 --> 0:25:01.320 country was so weakened, the NHL, National Health Service, the 0:25:02.240 --> 0:25:08.080 so many aspects of what makes the UK distinctive flourishing 0:25:08.600 --> 0:25:12.960 were just severely damaged by the long Conservative rule. It 0:25:13.040 --> 0:25:16.119 was just self evident to so many people that the 0:25:16.119 --> 0:25:20.960 cultural politics of the Conservatives were hiding a really nefarious 0:25:21.119 --> 0:25:25.160 economic agenda that was terrible for Britain. So I think, 0:25:25.320 --> 0:25:27.600 when you know we see this in the United States, 0:25:27.640 --> 0:25:30.000 when you know we saw it, say under Bush, when 0:25:30.400 --> 0:25:32.280 to some extent we saw it in Trump's first turn, 0:25:32.400 --> 0:25:35.560 and not to some extent we saw it. Republicans come in, 0:25:35.880 --> 0:25:39.840 they pass an enormous tax cut for corporations and billionaires 0:25:40.160 --> 0:25:43.440 while telling the working class that they're for them, and 0:25:43.480 --> 0:25:49.120 then the economy, the US spirals massively into some crushing 0:25:49.160 --> 0:25:52.399 economic crisis, and then the Democrats come in and have 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:55.479 to clean things up. So that's what we saw with Biden. 0:25:55.640 --> 0:25:59.399 We had multiple crises. Under the Trump's first term, we 0:25:59.440 --> 0:26:03.879 had this enormous tax cut that just you know, exponentially 0:26:03.920 --> 0:26:08.080 increased our deficit, and Biden came in and did things 0:26:08.119 --> 0:26:12.040 for the working class, and the US economy is thriving 0:26:12.080 --> 0:26:14.879 and flourishing. So I think that's really what happened in 0:26:14.920 --> 0:26:17.919 the UK, that the cultural politics of the Conservatives just 0:26:18.160 --> 0:26:20.919 people finally realized, Okay, this is ruining our country. But 0:26:21.000 --> 0:26:23.840 I think a country we can look to is Poland. 0:26:23.920 --> 0:26:25.399 Yes, can you talk about that? 0:26:25.680 --> 0:26:27.600 Yes? I think the two figures you need to look 0:26:27.640 --> 0:26:30.280 at in the world as sort of central figures in 0:26:30.359 --> 0:26:33.919 the attack on democracy are Puten and Victor o Abaun, 0:26:34.240 --> 0:26:37.160 and Victor Arbau is doing it within Europe. Of course, 0:26:37.240 --> 0:26:40.840 Victorn recently went to Moscow and then went to visit 0:26:40.960 --> 0:26:45.280 Trump in Florida. So Poland, the Peace the Law and 0:26:45.520 --> 0:26:49.440 Justice Party took up Victor Baund's politics in Poland. When 0:26:49.440 --> 0:26:52.960 they won, they replaced the courts. So there's now sort 0:26:52.960 --> 0:26:57.359 of a standard mechanism. You replace the courts by justices 0:26:57.800 --> 0:27:00.959 that are loyal to the party, to the League and 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:04.600 Poland or Bond died that. Poland did that. You find 0:27:04.880 --> 0:27:09.720 judges who are pretty explicitly in the pocket of the 0:27:10.160 --> 0:27:14.200 anti democratic party, and you strong arm your way through 0:27:14.240 --> 0:27:19.520 the justice system to replace more impartial justices by those justices. 0:27:19.560 --> 0:27:23.119 That's the first and most important stage. Peace did that, 0:27:23.720 --> 0:27:26.080 or Bond did that long ago. Then you use the 0:27:26.119 --> 0:27:30.359 courts to target the media, to target your political opponents, 0:27:30.760 --> 0:27:36.280 to target business people, to target businesses that your friends desire, 0:27:36.640 --> 0:27:39.159 so you've can force help them to your friends. So 0:27:39.400 --> 0:27:43.639 or Buck perfected that, and Poland just took up that strategy. 0:27:43.680 --> 0:27:46.800 We can see from Orbond's frequent visits to the Heritage 0:27:46.840 --> 0:27:50.640 Foundation and tomorrow Lago that they're really taking advice from 0:27:50.720 --> 0:27:53.760 him about how to do this. So've already done it. 0:27:53.800 --> 0:27:57.000 They've already done it to a large extent. But the second, 0:27:57.600 --> 0:28:00.760 if Trump wins, will see a much more complete destruction 0:28:00.920 --> 0:28:03.359 of the rule of law and the replacement of the 0:28:03.440 --> 0:28:05.959 rule of law by the rule of Trump and the courts. 0:28:06.480 --> 0:28:10.560 So in Poland, what happened is that Pea's lost, which 0:28:10.800 --> 0:28:14.760 one had predicted, because Peace had controlled the media, Peace 0:28:14.880 --> 0:28:18.720 controlled the courts, and Law and Justice is still a 0:28:18.840 --> 0:28:24.080 very powerful party in Poland. But they lost due to 0:28:24.080 --> 0:28:30.359 to a unified anti autocratic, anti authoritarian political movement. The 0:28:30.880 --> 0:28:34.199 people who objected to what was happening to Poland, who 0:28:34.200 --> 0:28:38.080 didn't want to see Poland become another Hungary, lined up 0:28:38.120 --> 0:28:43.280 together and defeated the authoritarian party. Now, of course, we 0:28:43.320 --> 0:28:48.000 still have the justices in Poland, the legal judges in 0:28:48.040 --> 0:28:51.040 Poland that are essentially in the pockets of the Law 0:28:51.080 --> 0:28:54.240 and Justice Party. We still have the damage that so 0:28:54.320 --> 0:28:58.160 many years of rule of essentially a kind of one 0:28:58.200 --> 0:29:03.120 party state did, but by unifying against them, they defeated them. 0:29:03.280 --> 0:29:07.320 That is really hopeful. And it's not like the case 0:29:07.320 --> 0:29:11.240 of UK where if you're still voting on make Britain 0:29:11.320 --> 0:29:17.120 Great Again, you're really just not seeing the complete dismantling 0:29:17.160 --> 0:29:17.840 of your country. 0:29:18.160 --> 0:29:19.080 I'm curious if. 0:29:18.960 --> 0:29:25.200 You could explain sort of what is appealing to American voters. 0:29:25.400 --> 0:29:27.440 I understand that Trump has. 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:31.720 This message, but like very rich people are very very 0:29:31.800 --> 0:29:34.040 rich people, like the richest people in the world, all 0:29:34.080 --> 0:29:37.840 want Trump and it can't just be for the tax cut. 0:29:38.000 --> 0:29:41.120 There has to be something else that is driving this. 0:29:41.680 --> 0:29:44.760 Right or now, Yes, there is something else driving this, 0:29:45.000 --> 0:29:48.520 as you know, but let's begin with the pragmatic issues 0:29:48.560 --> 0:29:51.480 that you've just raised. It's not just the tax cuts. 0:29:51.560 --> 0:29:55.840 It's the complete destruction of the regulatory apparatus of government 0:29:55.880 --> 0:29:59.800 that is prom and so you can basically pollute the SKA. 0:30:00.400 --> 0:30:04.280 You can see what's happened by the justices he's appointed 0:30:04.280 --> 0:30:07.520 in the Supreme Court. You can dismantle the regulatory power, 0:30:07.520 --> 0:30:11.520 the power of the regulatory agencies, giving massive power to 0:30:11.600 --> 0:30:15.040 those who want to pollute the skies, exploit their labor, 0:30:15.480 --> 0:30:18.600 labor forces you're just giving you you know, you're bringing 0:30:18.600 --> 0:30:22.440 America back to the early twentieth century. So that just 0:30:22.600 --> 0:30:25.239 helps corporations who don't want to have to deal with 0:30:25.320 --> 0:30:28.200 environmental issues. I mean, we have to remember, before there 0:30:28.400 --> 0:30:33.720 was an EPA, before there was serious environmental regulatory structure, 0:30:34.080 --> 0:30:37.200 you know, our cities were a lot filthier and more 0:30:37.200 --> 0:30:40.440 polluted than they are now. So we can expect to 0:30:40.480 --> 0:30:42.680 go back to that, and that's in the interests of 0:30:43.080 --> 0:30:45.880 all the businessmen who want to enrich themselves at the 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:49.240 cost of our country. So there's those practical elements. Then 0:30:49.280 --> 0:30:52.880 the second part, which is a mixture of practical and personal, 0:30:53.160 --> 0:30:56.960 is that the billionaire class often thinks this happened with 0:30:57.000 --> 0:31:00.080 Putin as well, often thinks that, oh, well, if we 0:31:00.120 --> 0:31:04.120 get ourselves in with the autocrat, then it will help 0:31:04.240 --> 0:31:07.480 us because he's going to have his favorites. So that's 0:31:07.480 --> 0:31:08.440 what you're seeing. 0:31:08.160 --> 0:31:08.960 Now a lot. 0:31:09.320 --> 0:31:11.760 You know, like, Okay, if we line up behind him, 0:31:11.800 --> 0:31:14.760 he's going to bend the government to our favor and 0:31:14.760 --> 0:31:18.240 that's right. Trump will pick people he likes, but you 0:31:18.280 --> 0:31:23.719 know it's going to be on very chaotic and arbitrary grounds. 0:31:24.080 --> 0:31:28.680 You're kissing his ass now will be fairly arbitrarily related 0:31:28.720 --> 0:31:31.080 to whether or not he chooses to use the quarts 0:31:31.120 --> 0:31:34.360 to punish you, to enrich other people he might be 0:31:34.400 --> 0:31:38.360 interested in enriching. It's just all about currying favor with him. 0:31:38.360 --> 0:31:41.240 But what we've seen from the past is that, and 0:31:41.320 --> 0:31:45.160 even the recent past, is that the oligarchs think, oh, well, 0:31:45.440 --> 0:31:47.200 you know, I can make him my friend and that 0:31:47.280 --> 0:31:50.320 will benefit me over this system we have where it's 0:31:50.360 --> 0:31:54.680 all pretty fair. Free market capitalism not fair. But and 0:31:54.720 --> 0:31:58.160 then the final thing is this machismo. A lot of business. 0:31:58.360 --> 0:32:01.520 You know, I won't mention any names here. A lot 0:32:01.520 --> 0:32:06.520 of super powerful, wealthy people don't think democratically. Hitler was 0:32:06.600 --> 0:32:08.680 very aware of this. There's a speech he gave to 0:32:08.680 --> 0:32:12.440 the industrialists who He's like, you don't think democratically. You 0:32:12.480 --> 0:32:16.160 think you're the boss. You shouldn't want a political system 0:32:16.240 --> 0:32:19.280 where everyone thinks democratically. You should want a political system 0:32:19.280 --> 0:32:22.320 where there's a boss and everyone else. And that's what's 0:32:22.360 --> 0:32:24.960 going on now. A lot of the oligarchs, they just 0:32:25.080 --> 0:32:28.880 are horrified or disgusted by the fact that Joe Schmoe 0:32:28.880 --> 0:32:32.200 and New Jersey can vote to raise their taxes. You know, 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:36.480 they think of themselves as people who did it all themselves, 0:32:36.960 --> 0:32:40.280 and it's a winners and losers world, and winners should 0:32:40.320 --> 0:32:45.280 get everything. And so that is the ideology Trump presents. 0:32:45.320 --> 0:32:49.200 Right, and I guess that's very appealing to wealthy people, 0:32:49.480 --> 0:32:53.400 though it's insane, and we've seen before that what it 0:32:53.440 --> 0:32:57.600 will do ultimately is, you know, having a fed controlled 0:32:57.640 --> 0:33:01.920 by a leader will ultimately kill the economy. Jason, thank 0:33:02.000 --> 0:33:04.120 you so much for joining us. I hope you'll come back. 0:33:04.480 --> 0:33:05.840 Thank you, of course, anytime. 0:33:05.920 --> 0:33:12.760 Molly Kate Shaw is a law professor at University of Pennsylvania, 0:33:12.920 --> 0:33:17.040 co host of the podcast Strict Scrutiny, and an ABC 0:33:17.360 --> 0:33:18.480 legal analyst. 0:33:19.040 --> 0:33:21.520 Welcome back to Fast Politics, Kate Shaw. 0:33:21.920 --> 0:33:22.880 Thanks for having me, Molly. 0:33:23.120 --> 0:33:25.719 I'm so happy to have you because I think of 0:33:25.760 --> 0:33:27.880 you as one of those people who makes the law 0:33:27.920 --> 0:33:30.400 accessible to me. And when we say accessible, it always 0:33:30.400 --> 0:33:32.120 sounds like, you know, that we're sort of saying the 0:33:32.120 --> 0:33:34.760 prison is a little bit stupid, which may or may 0:33:34.800 --> 0:33:38.280 not be true about me, But it's more that we're 0:33:38.360 --> 0:33:41.160 right now, we're watching the Supreme Court do things with 0:33:41.240 --> 0:33:44.000 the law that none of us could have anticipated, and 0:33:44.200 --> 0:33:47.520 so the more we talk about it, I feel like, 0:33:47.760 --> 0:33:49.760 the better it is for all. 0:33:49.680 --> 0:33:52.000 Of us just to understand what the hell is going on. 0:33:52.120 --> 0:33:55.280 So my first question, this is like a long way 0:33:55.320 --> 0:33:56.640 of leading up to this, but my first. 0:33:56.560 --> 0:34:01.880 Question is sort of we had these two seismics, blockbuster decisions, 0:34:02.080 --> 0:34:05.479 one that gave the executive more power immunity, right, Nixon, 0:34:05.560 --> 0:34:08.600 Whatever the president does is fine, because what are crimes anyway? 0:34:09.000 --> 0:34:11.440 And then the other one, which is this, you know, 0:34:11.920 --> 0:34:15.600 this sort of trying to dismantle the administrative state with Chevron. 0:34:15.840 --> 0:34:19.040 I would love you to talk about them, but also 0:34:19.280 --> 0:34:22.239 about sort of what you think is going on there. 0:34:22.840 --> 0:34:25.600 Sure, I totally agree with that basic observation, which is 0:34:25.640 --> 0:34:29.120 that the law is kind of inaccessible and opaque, and 0:34:29.160 --> 0:34:31.240 a lot of the time I think that's by design. 0:34:31.440 --> 0:34:32.160 I think the. 0:34:32.120 --> 0:34:37.719 Justices shroud the institution in secrecy quite deliberately, and they say, well, 0:34:37.800 --> 0:34:40.839 our work product is transparent, anyone can read it, but 0:34:40.880 --> 0:34:43.359 they do not write in an accessible fashion, and so 0:34:43.400 --> 0:34:45.880 I do think a lot of translation is required. You know. 0:34:45.920 --> 0:34:49.080 In some ways, I think the immunity decision was more 0:34:49.239 --> 0:34:52.680 direct and straightforward in that it really did say without 0:34:52.719 --> 0:34:54.920 saying the sentence you said, Molly, right, if the president 0:34:54.960 --> 0:34:57.200 does it that means it's not illegal, which is of 0:34:57.239 --> 0:35:01.320 course the famous Nixon comment and his interview with Robert Frost. 0:35:01.640 --> 0:35:04.799 That's basically what the decision says, that much of what 0:35:04.840 --> 0:35:08.040 the president does while president can never be subject to 0:35:08.080 --> 0:35:13.319 criminal consequences even after the president leaves office. And that's 0:35:13.400 --> 0:35:15.880 just not something we've ever had as a principle in 0:35:15.920 --> 0:35:19.920 our law. In fact, everything in our constitutional tradition runs 0:35:20.040 --> 0:35:22.319 exactly in the opposite direction. I mean to go back 0:35:22.360 --> 0:35:25.560 to Nixon for a minute. You know, when Nixon left office, 0:35:25.600 --> 0:35:29.320 the understanding was that he was very vulnerable to criminal 0:35:29.480 --> 0:35:32.880 charge and trial and conviction, and the reason that his successor, 0:35:32.960 --> 0:35:36.359 Gerald Ford, pardoned him was to spare him and the 0:35:36.400 --> 0:35:39.719 country from the process of a criminal trial. And the 0:35:39.719 --> 0:35:43.880 pardon itself that Ford wrote basically said, Nixon has already 0:35:43.920 --> 0:35:47.440 suffered this grave indignity of having to leave the office 0:35:47.480 --> 0:35:51.000 in disgrace, and that's pretty serious punishment. And for that reason, 0:35:51.000 --> 0:35:52.959 I'm going to grant him a pardon. But the pardon 0:35:53.000 --> 0:35:56.840 would never have been necessary if Nixon couldn't be prosecuted anyway. 0:35:56.840 --> 0:36:00.000 And essentially that's what this immunity decision involving Donald try 0:36:00.000 --> 0:36:03.720 Trump says the president, when he does things as president, 0:36:03.840 --> 0:36:06.960 can never be criminally prosecuted, even if the things he 0:36:07.000 --> 0:36:09.520 does as president violate the law. 0:36:09.760 --> 0:36:09.960 Right. 0:36:10.280 --> 0:36:12.640 So that's I think the core holding of that opinion, 0:36:12.680 --> 0:36:16.520 and I think it's a wildly dangerous one, and I 0:36:16.520 --> 0:36:19.040 think it's it would be dangerous under any circumstances. It 0:36:19.120 --> 0:36:22.719 is especially dangerous in that it's been issued at a 0:36:22.719 --> 0:36:26.759 moment when obviously the front runner for the presidency right now, 0:36:26.800 --> 0:36:31.800 Donald Trump, has pledged to exact retribution upon his enemies 0:36:32.280 --> 0:36:34.239 and to engage in all manner of other activities, some 0:36:34.280 --> 0:36:37.000 of which might violate law. But it turns out under 0:36:37.000 --> 0:36:41.239 this opinion, he himself will not face any possibility of 0:36:41.280 --> 0:36:46.120 criminal liability, even for violating clear statutory law. So that's 0:36:46.280 --> 0:36:49.239 decision one that I think was a real earthquake on 0:36:49.280 --> 0:36:50.480 the very last day of the term. 0:36:50.800 --> 0:36:52.840 I would like to pause and just say, for the 0:36:52.880 --> 0:36:56.040 two of us, you know, you're married to someone who's 0:36:56.120 --> 0:36:59.200 on cable news. You're on cable news. I'm on cable news. 0:36:59.719 --> 0:37:02.719 There is it certainly a feeling. I don't know if 0:37:02.800 --> 0:37:06.720 you feel this way, but I certainly feel like Trump 0:37:06.760 --> 0:37:10.480 has already said that he's going to exact retribution on 0:37:10.840 --> 0:37:15.399 you know, whether it's Maggie or it's Joe, or it's 0:37:15.560 --> 0:37:18.359 you know, I mean, we are in the crosshairs here. 0:37:18.680 --> 0:37:20.279 Yeah, I mean, I think he's been really clear that 0:37:20.320 --> 0:37:22.560 the people that he' views as his enemies, and that's 0:37:22.719 --> 0:37:26.360 some members of the kind of professional democratic classorate, actual 0:37:26.360 --> 0:37:29.480 politicians that Biden family, people like that, but also the press, 0:37:29.520 --> 0:37:32.720 Like he has said very clearly that on his enemies 0:37:32.800 --> 0:37:34.360 list are members of the press. 0:37:34.440 --> 0:37:35.839 And you know, in addition to. 0:37:36.120 --> 0:37:40.160 What's in the opinion about just kind of general criminal immunity, 0:37:40.480 --> 0:37:45.120 there's a long discussion of the basically sacricinct relationship between 0:37:45.120 --> 0:37:48.200 the president and the Department of Justice, and the suggestion 0:37:48.280 --> 0:37:50.280 is that the president can tell the Department of Justice 0:37:50.800 --> 0:37:53.920 to do anything he wants and that no court can 0:37:53.960 --> 0:37:57.040 second guess that, and that in some ways is as 0:37:57.160 --> 0:38:01.040 chilling to me as the holding about immune because there 0:38:01.080 --> 0:38:05.239 has always been an understanding in democratic and Republican administrations 0:38:05.280 --> 0:38:08.480 alike that there is a degree of separation between the 0:38:08.520 --> 0:38:10.880 political actors in the White House and right around the 0:38:10.920 --> 0:38:14.480 president and the prosecutors in the Department of Justice, and 0:38:14.760 --> 0:38:18.560 there has been this kind of insurgent component of the 0:38:18.560 --> 0:38:22.200 conservative legal movement that for decades has basically said that 0:38:22.239 --> 0:38:24.560 the president actually needs to have more control over the 0:38:24.680 --> 0:38:28.880 entire apparatus of government, maybe most importantly the Department of Justice. 0:38:29.000 --> 0:38:33.000 But the traditions of the DOJ have been very opposed 0:38:33.000 --> 0:38:35.000 to that. I mean, the reason that Trump got such 0:38:35.160 --> 0:38:38.360 pushback in DJ when he tried to weaponize the department 0:38:38.400 --> 0:38:41.480 to help him in his post election efforts is because 0:38:41.520 --> 0:38:45.080 those norms are so internalized by DOJ officials that no, 0:38:45.120 --> 0:38:47.880 you don't just do the political bidding of the president, 0:38:47.960 --> 0:38:50.520 because there is a degree of independence at the department 0:38:51.000 --> 0:38:55.000 basically since it's post Civil war, founding has been understood 0:38:55.000 --> 0:38:59.160 to possess. And the opinion says basically that none of 0:38:59.200 --> 0:39:03.799 that is constituted required and maybe it's even constitutionally problematic 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:07.040 for the DJ to exercise independent So that suggests, you know, 0:39:07.080 --> 0:39:10.480 the president would be immune from going after adversaries, but 0:39:10.560 --> 0:39:14.640 also that he has the constitutional authority to tell DOJ 0:39:14.800 --> 0:39:17.680 to do whatever he wants it to do. And I mean, 0:39:17.880 --> 0:39:19.919 I think it's actually really important to try to push 0:39:19.920 --> 0:39:22.120 back on that opinion in that age, just because the 0:39:22.120 --> 0:39:25.200 court says it that's just one actor, and you know, 0:39:25.560 --> 0:39:28.439 individuals inside the Department of Justice can decide the court 0:39:28.480 --> 0:39:31.440 is incorrect and its assessment of the proper relationship between 0:39:31.600 --> 0:39:34.279 the Department of Justice and the president. But also I 0:39:34.320 --> 0:39:36.319 think it's possible to read the opinion as saying, well, 0:39:36.600 --> 0:39:40.000 the President can never face consequences for telling DJ what 0:39:40.120 --> 0:39:42.520 to do, you know, even if it's for you know, 0:39:42.600 --> 0:39:45.160 corrupt motives or self serving motives or things like that. 0:39:45.560 --> 0:39:50.239 But that does not mean that that DOJ attorneys don't 0:39:50.280 --> 0:39:52.680 have their own legal obligations. And if there are statutes 0:39:52.719 --> 0:39:55.239 that require them to act based on their best view 0:39:55.280 --> 0:39:57.120 of the law and not what the president's sort of 0:39:57.160 --> 0:40:01.080 whim suggests they should do, and constitutionalms and obligations, that 0:40:01.160 --> 0:40:04.439 DOJ attorneys still have those. So I actually think there's 0:40:04.480 --> 0:40:06.480 that that's a really important part of the opinion, like 0:40:06.600 --> 0:40:08.280 what it says, and I think it says quite dangerous 0:40:08.280 --> 0:40:11.880 things about that relationship. But it doesn't totally end, in 0:40:11.920 --> 0:40:14.880 my mind, at least, the practice, the long settle practice 0:40:14.880 --> 0:40:17.640 of the DOJ understanding itself to have a degree of 0:40:17.640 --> 0:40:19.640 independence and autonomy from the president. 0:40:19.960 --> 0:40:25.080 Yeah, that's right, and it is really just unbelievably scary 0:40:25.239 --> 0:40:28.080 and also weird. I mean, not to put too fine 0:40:28.080 --> 0:40:30.319 a point on it, there is a feeling I think 0:40:30.360 --> 0:40:32.400 a lot of people are having right now, which is 0:40:32.920 --> 0:40:37.480 that the Supreme Court and the billionaire class are pretty 0:40:37.640 --> 0:40:41.399 committed to trying to make Donald Trump president and they 0:40:41.400 --> 0:40:44.920 will do anything. I'm a little bit in despair about it. 0:40:45.000 --> 0:40:47.360 I don't know how you feel. Tell me something that 0:40:47.560 --> 0:40:49.320 will make me feel less depressed about this. 0:40:50.640 --> 0:40:53.279 Well, that's usually my role on the podcast that I 0:40:53.280 --> 0:40:57.759 co host, Like I think dispositionally inclined to optimism and 0:40:57.960 --> 0:41:00.520 like ascribing good faith to most early least a lot 0:41:00.560 --> 0:41:02.960 of actors. And I too feel like pretty despairing at 0:41:02.960 --> 0:41:05.240 the moment. I mean, I think despair is not an option, 0:41:05.360 --> 0:41:08.400 like we have to keep at it because there's no alternative. 0:41:08.440 --> 0:41:10.440 But I think it is very very difficult. I mean, 0:41:10.440 --> 0:41:12.600 I think that, and that's part of the reason I'm 0:41:12.640 --> 0:41:16.160 actually coming back to DOJ because I too feel that 0:41:16.320 --> 0:41:19.719 I have very little faith that if it comes down 0:41:19.760 --> 0:41:23.520 to one or two outcome determinative states in the presidential election, 0:41:23.719 --> 0:41:26.960 and there's some litigation that ends up at the Supreme Court, 0:41:27.320 --> 0:41:29.959 the notion that the Court will simply act in good 0:41:30.000 --> 0:41:34.080 faith and decide what the law requires it seems so naive. 0:41:33.800 --> 0:41:35.879 To even like entertain that possibility. 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:37.879 So it does feel to me as though if it's 0:41:37.920 --> 0:41:41.160 close and the court is going to make some decisive determination, 0:41:41.800 --> 0:41:44.040 things will obviously break in favor of Donald Trump. It's 0:41:44.120 --> 0:41:46.360 very hard for me to see if there's a remotely 0:41:46.400 --> 0:41:49.120 plausible legal argument, and good lawyers can always make them. 0:41:49.120 --> 0:41:51.720 And so this is I guess a place to maybe 0:41:51.719 --> 0:41:53.319 like locate a little bit of hope if there is 0:41:53.360 --> 0:41:55.960 any I mean one lawyers will have a lot of 0:41:55.960 --> 0:41:59.279 power here to decide whether to cooperate in advancing a 0:41:59.320 --> 0:42:02.000 set of legal arguments that are specious but maybe could 0:42:02.040 --> 0:42:04.719 be made to look plausible that could help Trump win 0:42:04.840 --> 0:42:06.640 in one or two states that could tip the balance, 0:42:06.760 --> 0:42:08.359 or they could decide not to. I mean, I do 0:42:08.400 --> 0:42:11.919 think you saw many, many, not all, but many law 0:42:11.960 --> 0:42:16.680 firms and practicing lawyers essentially turn away from assisting in 0:42:16.800 --> 0:42:20.440 the post election efforts to contest Joe Biden's victory in 0:42:20.480 --> 0:42:23.279 twenty twenty, and so, like you know, the kind of 0:42:23.719 --> 0:42:26.680 legal culture and legal norms and norms in the world 0:42:26.680 --> 0:42:30.800 of law that discourage and maybe meet out professional consequences 0:42:30.840 --> 0:42:34.920 to individuals who assist an effort to thwart the Democratic will. Like, 0:42:34.960 --> 0:42:37.640 I think that's one possible like lever that could matter, 0:42:37.760 --> 0:42:39.759 And I do think another one is you know, the 0:42:39.840 --> 0:42:44.480 levers inside government, and that presupposes that Trump wins. But 0:42:44.560 --> 0:42:47.040 I do think that in terms of, you know, staunching 0:42:47.480 --> 0:42:51.320 some of the worst potential consequences of a Trump victory, 0:42:51.600 --> 0:42:55.480 there will be actors inside the federal agencies that will 0:42:55.480 --> 0:42:58.680 be in a position to actually push back in meaningful ways. 0:42:58.880 --> 0:43:00.600 Although I do think the Supreme Court made it much harder. 0:43:00.600 --> 0:43:02.600 But that's already like at a pretty big bleak place. 0:43:02.680 --> 0:43:04.680 I'm saying, like, here are some things that can be 0:43:04.760 --> 0:43:09.799 done to mitigate the awfulness of a second Trump administration. 0:43:09.960 --> 0:43:11.960 But I think that it would again be naive not 0:43:12.000 --> 0:43:13.759 to be thinking about that. Maybe the last thing I'll 0:43:13.760 --> 0:43:16.960 say is like, if there's a very decisive win for 0:43:17.080 --> 0:43:20.560 the Democratic candidate that cannot be undone. 0:43:20.360 --> 0:43:22.759 Then maybe we get to keep American. 0:43:24.880 --> 0:43:27.640 Yeah, so it's organizing and its politics. I mean, the 0:43:27.680 --> 0:43:29.600 law in the courts I don't think are the place 0:43:29.680 --> 0:43:31.080 to locate your hopes right now. 0:43:31.280 --> 0:43:34.200 Yeah, it's so funny because it's like we were told 0:43:34.400 --> 0:43:37.120 Mahler would save us. I mean, I'd say this as 0:43:37.239 --> 0:43:39.840 just a journalist and on the opinion side, no less. 0:43:39.840 --> 0:43:42.120 But we were told that the courts were going to 0:43:42.200 --> 0:43:44.040 save us. We were told that Maler was going to 0:43:44.080 --> 0:43:46.040 save us. We were told that this guy who's done 0:43:46.080 --> 0:43:48.600 a million different crimes is going to be held responsible. 0:43:49.000 --> 0:43:51.880 And in fact, it falls again to the voters. The 0:43:51.960 --> 0:43:54.560 thing I found the most dispiriting, now that we're just 0:43:54.640 --> 0:43:58.600 talking about my mental health here was, you know, very 0:43:58.719 --> 0:44:02.239 rich people who who I know who are just just 0:44:02.320 --> 0:44:05.360 want the tax cut, and they don't care about the 0:44:05.440 --> 0:44:08.040 end of American democracy. And one of the things I'm 0:44:08.080 --> 0:44:11.640 struck by is the trump Ism is not just about 0:44:11.719 --> 0:44:14.319 cutting taxes for the wealthy. I mean, that's sort of 0:44:14.320 --> 0:44:17.040 the more of the Mitt Romney school. This is really 0:44:17.080 --> 0:44:21.320 about like radically changing the way America works. 0:44:21.680 --> 0:44:24.959 It feels to me so shortsighted, even as a matter 0:44:25.000 --> 0:44:28.399 of like personal, you know, financial interest for the very 0:44:28.400 --> 0:44:31.279 wealthy class, in that a lot of what the Trump 0:44:31.320 --> 0:44:34.480 administration would a second Trump administration would entail the kind 0:44:34.480 --> 0:44:35.200 of deregulation. 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:36.600 And this ties back to the Supreme Court. 0:44:36.719 --> 0:44:40.360 So these other major decisions, including the one that overruled Chevron, 0:44:40.440 --> 0:44:42.360 but a handful of others that are a little bit 0:44:42.400 --> 0:44:46.080 more under the radar, have I think ensured that if 0:44:46.080 --> 0:44:49.080 a president comes into office who wants the federal government 0:44:49.160 --> 0:44:51.920 to not only work to advance, you know, like the 0:44:51.960 --> 0:44:55.320 fight against climate change, but essentially to give carte blanche 0:44:55.360 --> 0:44:59.400 to industry to act as aggressively, you know, as they 0:44:59.440 --> 0:45:02.720 want to maximize profits and you know, accelerate the destruction 0:45:02.840 --> 0:45:04.920 of the planet, they'll be able to do that, right 0:45:04.960 --> 0:45:08.800 and at a certain point, like a wildly unstable climate 0:45:09.320 --> 0:45:12.320 isn't a favorable business environment. 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:14.280 And so I mean, and maybe it's. 0:45:14.120 --> 0:45:17.680 A time horizon issue, but I just think that climate 0:45:17.800 --> 0:45:21.600 disaster is going to be wildly expensive, and of course 0:45:21.960 --> 0:45:26.600 it will fall in wildly disproportionate ways on the individuals 0:45:26.600 --> 0:45:29.760 with the fewest resources, but it won't be good for anyone. 0:45:30.080 --> 0:45:32.560 And so I actually do think that I'm not sure, 0:45:32.600 --> 0:45:33.880 I'm not the person to make the case, but it 0:45:33.880 --> 0:45:36.400 does feel to me like there are very strong cases 0:45:36.440 --> 0:45:39.680 to be made that are like the business cases against authoritarianism. 0:45:39.920 --> 0:45:42.439 I'm not sure if the individuals who are just thinking 0:45:42.480 --> 0:45:45.160 about the very short term, you know, tax benefits that 0:45:45.160 --> 0:45:48.160 a Trump administration might confer on them would be open 0:45:48.160 --> 0:45:48.360 to that. 0:45:48.400 --> 0:45:50.400 But if they think even like a half. 0:45:50.200 --> 0:45:54.399 Generation or a generation out about kids and grandkids and like. 0:45:54.400 --> 0:45:56.080 The imperative of a habitable planet. 0:45:56.120 --> 0:46:00.000 Even if democracy as a concept feels abstracted, people like 0:46:00.080 --> 0:46:02.520 if it's a people motivated by their kind of bottom 0:46:02.560 --> 0:46:06.080 line and sort of pocketbook interest, like it feels as 0:46:06.160 --> 0:46:10.160 though there too, just climate alone should be enough to 0:46:10.160 --> 0:46:12.160 at least get people pause about what a second Trump 0:46:12.160 --> 0:46:13.160 administration would mean. 0:46:13.520 --> 0:46:14.560 It's so insane. 0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:18.799 You know, we're in this really important window where you know, 0:46:18.840 --> 0:46:22.040 we have about five years before we get into like 0:46:22.600 --> 0:46:25.840 I mean, I think we're already probably past that, but 0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:30.480 for climate, we're in a really delicate spot. I was 0:46:30.560 --> 0:46:34.040 wondering if you could talk a little bit about what 0:46:34.520 --> 0:46:36.840 sort of you're seeing right now. So the Supreme Court 0:46:36.880 --> 0:46:40.560 is done with this insane semester, do you think you 0:46:40.600 --> 0:46:43.680 could talk for a minute about what it would look like. 0:46:44.080 --> 0:46:47.480 Just come with me to fantasy land. Democrats hold the Senate, 0:46:47.560 --> 0:46:50.080 they win the House, and they win the presidency. We 0:46:50.200 --> 0:46:53.200 have the Supreme Court that's radically remaking our country. What 0:46:53.239 --> 0:46:56.880 would be the least disruptive way to get this Supreme 0:46:56.920 --> 0:47:00.040 Court to look a little more like the country. 0:47:00.320 --> 0:47:02.320 This is, I like residing in this kind of fantasy 0:47:02.400 --> 0:47:04.960 landns me too. But I think you're right that, like, 0:47:05.000 --> 0:47:09.160 you know, even if somehow the Democrats have an incredible election, 0:47:09.840 --> 0:47:13.200 there is still this quite radical Supreme Court that, without 0:47:13.239 --> 0:47:16.759 any kind of reform, stands in the way of meaningful 0:47:16.920 --> 0:47:20.280 policy that the voters, you know, in this scenario would 0:47:20.280 --> 0:47:25.480 have chosen, because any new legislation, certainly any new regulation 0:47:25.680 --> 0:47:29.839 promulgated by an agency under a democratic administration, would run 0:47:29.880 --> 0:47:32.480 into the buzzsaw of this Supreme Court that wants government 0:47:32.520 --> 0:47:34.680 to do as little as possible at least, you know, 0:47:34.719 --> 0:47:37.439 when it comes to matters involving like the general health 0:47:37.440 --> 0:47:40.480 and welfare redistribution, you know, those sorts of things, like 0:47:40.520 --> 0:47:43.359 they're they're fine with certain kinds of aggressive government action 0:47:43.480 --> 0:47:45.480 like a big, you know, tax cut for example. I 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.560 can't imagine them entertaining a serious challenge to But that's 0:47:48.680 --> 0:47:50.919 legislation too. It's just they're very hostile to some kinds 0:47:50.960 --> 0:47:54.360 of legislation. So I think one would be you just 0:47:54.600 --> 0:47:57.279 add you know, some more seats to the Supreme Court, 0:47:57.280 --> 0:47:59.720 and it's not I don't think you know, you add 0:48:00.000 --> 0:48:03.319 you know, another add another five seats to the Supreme Court, right, 0:48:03.400 --> 0:48:05.680 like actually increase the size to keep pace with the 0:48:05.719 --> 0:48:07.719 size of the country and to keep pace with the 0:48:07.760 --> 0:48:10.480 size of other supreme courts, and you know, kind of 0:48:10.760 --> 0:48:13.960 relative terms, our Supreme Court is actually really small. So 0:48:14.040 --> 0:48:15.759 you could do that, and you could do it, you know, 0:48:15.800 --> 0:48:18.880 you'd have to get rid of the filibuster. I presume 0:48:18.920 --> 0:48:21.160 I don't know if your scenario was like sixty Democratic senators. 0:48:21.320 --> 0:48:23.680 It's fantasy land, so we can do whatever we want. 0:48:23.840 --> 0:48:26.239 But assuming that the fantasy there is just like I 0:48:26.280 --> 0:48:27.880 don't even know if the math is possible. It's like, 0:48:27.920 --> 0:48:30.520 I guess it's possible, but say you're under sixty but 0:48:30.600 --> 0:48:32.600 over fifty Democratic senators. Yeah, I mean, I think to 0:48:32.640 --> 0:48:35.040 do anything, not just on the Supreme Court, but you know, 0:48:35.120 --> 0:48:40.760 most things, you need to either totally jettison or really 0:48:40.800 --> 0:48:43.719 restrict the availability of the filibuster. And then you could 0:48:43.760 --> 0:48:46.120 just buy statute add some seats to the Supreme Court 0:48:46.280 --> 0:48:49.080 and fill them with justices who are not going to 0:48:49.080 --> 0:48:54.279 be this wildly hostile to anything a democratic administration might 0:48:54.360 --> 0:48:57.000 want to do. And again I'm saying democratic administration because 0:48:57.000 --> 0:48:59.319 I think that's also what's so hard. If you are 0:48:59.320 --> 0:49:01.680 inclined to kind of look in good faith at these 0:49:01.800 --> 0:49:04.839 justices in some ways, like the tension between the two 0:49:04.880 --> 0:49:08.359 big cases that you mentioned and some of their very 0:49:08.400 --> 0:49:12.880 different treatment of you know, say, arguments by the Republican 0:49:13.040 --> 0:49:17.239 presidential front runner for immunity and arguments that the democratic 0:49:17.280 --> 0:49:20.320 president and his agencies get to just like make policy. 0:49:20.560 --> 0:49:23.600 They are just so deeply hostile to anything that the 0:49:23.600 --> 0:49:27.040 Biden administration has done, whether we're talking about COVID policies, 0:49:27.080 --> 0:49:30.080 whether we're talking about student loan forgiveness. You know, they 0:49:30.120 --> 0:49:35.360 have struck down again and again relatively routine agency action 0:49:36.120 --> 0:49:39.080 if the agency happens to be part of a democratic administration, 0:49:39.160 --> 0:49:42.360 and they have just been wildly receptive to even the 0:49:42.400 --> 0:49:46.320 most outlandish arguments offered by former President Trump, including obviously 0:49:46.360 --> 0:49:50.680 in the immunity case, but also in the case regarding disqualification. Right, 0:49:50.680 --> 0:49:53.279 that's earlier this term. So it's almost like feels like 0:49:53.320 --> 0:49:54.080 AI history. 0:49:54.520 --> 0:49:57.439 Can you talk about that where they quickly put him 0:49:57.560 --> 0:49:59.520 right back on the ball after a few days. 0:49:59.520 --> 0:50:01.520 Talk about that, because that's so interesting time. 0:50:01.680 --> 0:50:04.160 That was a case where the State of Colorado tried 0:50:04.200 --> 0:50:06.959 to invoke this provision of the Fourteenth Amendment that disqualifies 0:50:07.000 --> 0:50:09.800 individuals who had been in public office and then engage 0:50:09.800 --> 0:50:13.759 in insurrection from holding future public office. And you know, 0:50:13.800 --> 0:50:16.520 this was an argument that had gained some traction in 0:50:16.680 --> 0:50:19.239 academic work and you know, op ed pages and things 0:50:19.280 --> 0:50:22.319 like that, and the voters of Colorado actually decided to 0:50:22.360 --> 0:50:24.960 try to invoke this provision to keep Trump off the 0:50:25.000 --> 0:50:28.680 Colorado primary ballot. And the Colorado courts actually took a 0:50:28.680 --> 0:50:31.399 good look at the Constitution and assessed the events leading 0:50:31.480 --> 0:50:33.960 up to and on January sixth, and said, yeah, what 0:50:34.040 --> 0:50:37.200 the constitution is. This part of the Constitution is designed 0:50:37.239 --> 0:50:39.839 to address exactly the scenario, which is someone who has 0:50:39.840 --> 0:50:41.960 engaged in insurrection and is trying to come back to 0:50:42.000 --> 0:50:46.560 public office and he is constitutionally Trump is constitutionally ineligible 0:50:46.600 --> 0:50:49.239 to run for office. And so they kept him off 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:52.040 the ballot, and the Supreme Court, in you know, lightning speed, 0:50:52.200 --> 0:50:55.239 basically within a couple of weeks, took the case up 0:50:55.360 --> 0:50:58.920 and ruled against what the Colorado Supreme Court had concluded 0:50:58.920 --> 0:51:01.080 and held that Trump had to be back on the ballot. 0:51:01.360 --> 0:51:05.600 And honestly, if you survey academics, law professors, people who 0:51:05.640 --> 0:51:08.640 really do read and teach the Constitution for a living, 0:51:09.080 --> 0:51:11.239 there's almost no one who will defend the substance of 0:51:11.280 --> 0:51:14.439 the courtse analysis in that case, even if some people say, like, yeah, 0:51:14.520 --> 0:51:17.440 it was actually reasonable for the Court to say, it 0:51:17.440 --> 0:51:19.840 would be so destabilizing for each date to decide for 0:51:19.880 --> 0:51:21.600 itself who is on the presidential about like, there is 0:51:21.640 --> 0:51:25.600 a pragmatic reason that it was dangerous for Colorado to 0:51:25.600 --> 0:51:26.880 do what it had done and to open the door 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:28.640 to some states trying to keep Biden off and other 0:51:28.640 --> 0:51:31.400 states trying to keep Trump off. But what's so galling, 0:51:31.440 --> 0:51:33.120 and this is I think true about the Immunity case 0:51:33.200 --> 0:51:35.839 and the Colorado case, is this is a Supreme Court 0:51:35.840 --> 0:51:38.480 majority that has said to us again and again, courts 0:51:38.520 --> 0:51:41.200 are not supposed to worry about consequences. Courts are not 0:51:41.200 --> 0:51:44.040 supposed to worry about policy. Courts are supposed to read 0:51:44.080 --> 0:51:46.560 the words of the Constitution. And that is their job. 0:51:46.640 --> 0:51:49.080 That's the way they stay in their assigned institutional role. 0:51:49.440 --> 0:51:51.480 So when it comes to questions about like the Second 0:51:51.480 --> 0:51:53.880 Amendment and what it would mean for our country and 0:51:53.880 --> 0:51:56.600 our children and schools and mass shootings, what it would 0:51:56.600 --> 0:51:58.920 mean to read the Second Amendment in one way versus another, 0:51:59.480 --> 0:52:02.160 or what it would mean for people's liberty and equality 0:52:02.200 --> 0:52:04.960 to read the Constitution to protect or not to protect 0:52:05.000 --> 0:52:07.560 the ability to terminate a pregnancy. The Court in all 0:52:07.600 --> 0:52:09.839 those kinds of cases has said, it's not to us 0:52:09.880 --> 0:52:12.040 to think about consequences, like we read the words of 0:52:12.040 --> 0:52:12.680 the Constitution. 0:52:12.800 --> 0:52:13.160 That's it. 0:52:13.480 --> 0:52:15.480 But of course, when it comes to these efforts by 0:52:15.680 --> 0:52:19.120 former President Trump to get bailed out of these, you know, 0:52:19.280 --> 0:52:22.480 either of this disqualification in Colorado or this criminal prosecution 0:52:22.640 --> 0:52:25.520 in DC, all of a sudden, the court is perfectly 0:52:25.560 --> 0:52:28.640 willing to consider the consequences of adopting one reading of 0:52:28.680 --> 0:52:29.960 the Constitution versus another. 0:52:30.000 --> 0:52:32.240 And it is the inconsistency that I find so calling. 0:52:32.719 --> 0:52:34.120 Yeah, and they're hypocrites. 0:52:34.200 --> 0:52:38.239 Thank you, Thank you, Kate Shaw, so interesting, really appreciate you. 0:52:38.640 --> 0:52:39.799 Thank you so much for having me. 0:52:42.480 --> 0:52:49.960 No moment secret. Jesse Cannon, my Jong Fast. 0:52:49.960 --> 0:52:52.480 I know I've told the story on here before of 0:52:52.560 --> 0:52:55.719 how long I've known Bob Benandez was corrupt, but it's 0:52:55.800 --> 0:52:57.719 nice to see the law is finally caught up to 0:52:57.760 --> 0:52:59.560 something I've known for almost two decades. 0:53:00.080 --> 0:53:02.879 And we don't want to be partisan here, though we are, 0:53:04.280 --> 0:53:07.080 but we do want to say corruption is bad. 0:53:07.160 --> 0:53:08.800 If you're on the left or the right. 0:53:09.080 --> 0:53:14.200 Gold bars should be in safes and not in the 0:53:14.239 --> 0:53:18.080 trunk of your car. Menande should resign, but then again, 0:53:18.360 --> 0:53:19.680 so should Donald Trump. 0:53:19.920 --> 0:53:22.200 And that is our moment of fuck array. 0:53:23.280 --> 0:53:26.640 That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in 0:53:26.680 --> 0:53:29.920 every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds 0:53:29.920 --> 0:53:33.160 in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you 0:53:33.280 --> 0:53:35.960 enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend 0:53:36.000 --> 0:53:39.560 and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.