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Speaker 1: Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics,

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Speaker 1: where we discussed the top political headlines with some of

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Speaker 1: today's best minds. And our f K Junior's son leaked

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Speaker 1: a video showing Donald Trump talking to his dad saying

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Speaker 1: that he would appoint him to his administration. In case

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Speaker 1: you're wondering why our of K Junior is worrying for President,

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Speaker 1: he is running to help Donald J.

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Speaker 2: Trump.

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Speaker 1: We have such a great show for you today. We

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Speaker 1: brought in the big guns. Yale professor Jason Stanley stops

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Speaker 1: by to talk to us about the parallels between creeping

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Speaker 1: bapcism in Europe and the United States. But we keep

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Speaker 1: it light, don't worry. Then we'll talk to strict scrutinies

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Speaker 1: Kate Shaw about the damage done by the Supreme Court

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Speaker 1: this term. But first we have Atlantic columnist George Conway.

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Speaker 1: Welcome back, too, Fast Politics, my friend, George Conway.

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Speaker 3: Hello back, I'm two thousand.

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Speaker 4: Yes, and yet we'd like more of you.

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Speaker 1: George Conway. I'm sorry to tell you well, you know,

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Speaker 1: not fair, I know, but so let's get going here

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Speaker 1: on the world's luckiest politician, especially legally, Can you explain

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Speaker 1: to me what happened yesterday with Judge a lean cannon

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Speaker 1: because that is it seemed inevitable.

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Speaker 4: But still, wow, it.

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Speaker 3: Did seem inevitable. And I sort of We had.

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Speaker 5: This lawyer who wrote an amicus brief for a group

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Speaker 5: of lawyers pointing out that the argument that Trump was

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Speaker 5: making about the question about the appointment of the special prosecutor,

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Speaker 5: which is simply wrong. There's just no a challenge right

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Speaker 5: for any number of reasons. And I remember joking to him,

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Speaker 5: the lawyer who was actually going to go up and argue,

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Speaker 5: which was very unusual for a district court to do,

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Speaker 5: to have an amicus cury, I argue before a district court.

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Speaker 5: I said, make sure you concede the motion, lose the motion?

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Speaker 5: Wait why, because that way it would be something to

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Speaker 5: take up to the Eleventh Circuit. See the judge that

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Speaker 5: nothing was ever gonna happen. Okay, she was clearly playing

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Speaker 5: for time and for whatever reason, motivated to help him.

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Speaker 5: And I hate to say that, I hate to question

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Speaker 5: initial motives, but in that case, I really really do

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Speaker 5: question her motives. I question confidence as well. But you know,

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Speaker 5: she basically if you look back at everything she's done,

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Speaker 5: she's strung out the clock, and now she dismisses the

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Speaker 5: case since it's going to take months for it to

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Speaker 5: get back to her, if it ever does. And basically

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Speaker 5: she feels like, Okay, I did my job, which was

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Speaker 5: the basically protect him from this case, and that's all

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Speaker 5: she ever seemed to do by slowing it down by

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Speaker 5: I mean, you look at the Menendez trial. That case

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Speaker 5: was brought I don't know how much longer, way after

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Speaker 5: the Marlago search for away, after the indictment of Trump.

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Speaker 4: I think it's almost done. Yeah, it's in front.

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Speaker 5: Of the jury right now. Charge as I understand it,

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Speaker 5: and that you know, it's actually quite a very similar

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Speaker 5: case in the following sense. You know, the FBI went

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Speaker 5: to the guy's house and found all this stuff gold bar,

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Speaker 5: the FBI went to Bump's house and found the stolen

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Speaker 5: classified documents. I mean, it's a simple case. It's almost

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Speaker 5: like a drug bus case. I mean, maybe maybe Menendez

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Speaker 5: has a defense that you know, his wife was taking

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Speaker 5: all this stuff and he didn't know about it, but

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Speaker 5: I don't know. I mean, we'll see, we'll see how

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Speaker 5: that comes out. But the point is that they got

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Speaker 5: that case to try a really fast and that's the

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Speaker 5: way it's supposed to work, and that's the way it

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Speaker 5: should have worked here. But then, you know, what happened

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Speaker 5: with her was in the summer of twenty It was

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Speaker 5: twenty twenty two, for goodness sakes, right, you know, it

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Speaker 5: was almost two years ago that the search warrant was

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Speaker 5: executed at mar Alago, and they had engaged in two

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Speaker 5: couple months of litigation about whether they could conduct an

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Speaker 5: investigation because the District Court was infare with the investigation

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Speaker 5: to the point where the Court of Appeals for the

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Speaker 5: Eleventh Circuit had to reverse her twice. And you know,

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Speaker 5: ever since then, she basically will hold motions and delay

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Speaker 5: them and sit on them and then hold arguments on

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Speaker 5: on motions on whether to hold motions. I mean, you know,

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Speaker 5: she was just basically every procedural delay you could possibly

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Speaker 5: imagine she used to help Trump. And I think it's

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Speaker 5: partly there is some favoritism there, but there's also an

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Speaker 5: incompetence there. I mean, that got to the point where

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Speaker 5: I think The New York Times reported that the chief

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Speaker 5: judge of the United States District Court for the Southern

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Speaker 5: District of Flora, who is a Bush appointee, whose name

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Speaker 5: was actually floated in I think two thousand and five

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Speaker 5: or two thousand and six in it went in the

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Speaker 5: run up to the choice that I think to replace

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Speaker 5: Sandrade O'Connor at the seat that ultimately first was going

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Speaker 5: to go to Roberts and then Ranquist died and then

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Speaker 5: it ultimately went to Aledo. She was one of the

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Speaker 5: names that had been floated for that list. She's a

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Speaker 5: very good judge by all accounts. And the point about

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Speaker 5: it is she tried to get this woman to procures herself,

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Speaker 5: Judge Cannon to accuse herself, and then apparently another judge

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Speaker 5: did that also because they just felt that she just

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Speaker 5: wasn't handling it correctly. And it's amazing. You never ever

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Speaker 5: hear that internal stuff happening in a court, and the

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Speaker 5: fact that it happened to hear it, I mean, it

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Speaker 5: just doesn't happen, first of all, and the fact that

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Speaker 5: it here is just amazing. And the fact that it

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Speaker 5: happened here and it got into the newspaper means it

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Speaker 5: was just the talk of a courthouse. And that's you know,

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Speaker 5: courthouse is our gossipy places. I'll tell you that right. Anyway,

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Speaker 5: The point is I'm rambling on here. I mean, if

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Speaker 5: we were television, we you know the thing as it

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Speaker 5: should have been like for ten seconds now Now now I.

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Speaker 4: Think people are interested in sort of the story behind it.

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Speaker 5: I mean, she just just delayed this case and delayed

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Speaker 5: this case and delayed this case. And the reason why

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Speaker 5: I made that argument to that lawyer, say, mat me,

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Speaker 5: the joke half joking really that we want to lose

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Speaker 5: this motion was so that you could go up to

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Speaker 5: the Eleventh Circuit. And the circuit's going to reverse again.

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Speaker 5: I don't think there are certainly not. I mean they're not.

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Speaker 5: I could go up to the Supreme Court. I don't

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Speaker 5: think so. But if it does, I mean I've been

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Speaker 5: wrong about the Supreme Court so far.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. Are you shocked at how partisan the Supreme Court is?

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Speaker 5: I'm going to be careful with motives, Okay. I think

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Speaker 5: the Supreme Court decision in the immunity case is raw

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Speaker 5: for a lot of different reasons. I do understand the

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Speaker 5: need to protect the presidency to some extent from baseless prosecutions,

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Speaker 5: but that's a whole other story. Anyway. The point about

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Speaker 5: this is there's a rule and unwritten rule in the

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Speaker 5: Eleventh Circuit which is the federal judicial circuit that includes Flora.

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Speaker 5: That says basically that if a judge screws something up

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Speaker 5: three times in the same direction, they reserve the right

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Speaker 5: to take the case reverse it.

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Speaker 4: So could they take the case and reverse it?

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Speaker 3: Yeah, they're gonna this is going to go up.

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Speaker 4: And what do you think will happen?

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Speaker 5: The case was a dismissal and it's going to get reversed.

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Speaker 5: I mean, there's a clear precedent that there's a statutory

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Speaker 5: basis for the appointment, and there's no basis to conclude

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Speaker 5: that the appointment is unconstitutional because this is an inferior officer.

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Speaker 4: Do you think then the Supreme Court will step in

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Speaker 4: and save him.

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Speaker 5: I don't think so, not this one.

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Speaker 4: Because it's so clear cut, or.

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Speaker 5: It's just absolutely clear cut.

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Speaker 2: Right.

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Speaker 5: The United States against Nixon implicitly upheld the very same

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Speaker 5: kind of mechanism where and the statute Congress has written

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Speaker 5: in statute that basically, the Attorney General has the power

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Speaker 5: to appoint whoever to prosecute cases, and that's his producative

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Speaker 5: and it's totally constitutional on the appointmance cause of the

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Speaker 5: Constitution because the person being appointed there is an inferior officer.

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Speaker 5: He reports to the Attorney General. He can be fire

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Speaker 5: Attorney General. Office can be terminated by regulation of the

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Speaker 5: by regulation issued by the Attorney General. He can be

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Speaker 5: ordered to stand down. He's an inferior officer. And the

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Speaker 5: only you know, under the constitution, the only officers that

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Speaker 5: are required to be appointed by the President and confirmed

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Speaker 5: by the Senate are so called the non inferior offices

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Speaker 5: on principal officers, and those are basically cabinet members who

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Speaker 5: directly report to the President. And that's that's just different.

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Speaker 5: So there's just no issue here. But she got a

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Speaker 5: role and it'll get reversed. But the point is that

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Speaker 5: she's run out the clock right right, even a quick

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Speaker 5: appeal on which I don't think is going to be

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Speaker 5: warranted here for any reason. I mean, it's going to

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Speaker 5: take it's going to take several months. So I don't

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Speaker 5: see you this case. But this case wasn't going anywhere

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Speaker 5: anyway because she had she had sufficiently delayed. I mean, basically,

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Speaker 5: now I don't have to do any work on it.

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Speaker 5: I can just kick it because now it's come back

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Speaker 5: to me. If it ever comes back to me again,

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Speaker 5: it'll be twenty twenty five, and either.

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Speaker 3: Trump has won or he hasn't.

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Speaker 5: Pears. So's that's what happened there, and it's very disappointing

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Speaker 5: and very disturbing.

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Speaker 1: The Trumps people are already talking about her as the

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Speaker 1: Supreme Court justice.

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Speaker 4: I'm sure you've seen this.

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Speaker 5: She probably be the first appointment he'd make to the

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Speaker 5: Eleventh Circuit Jesus.

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Speaker 3: I mean, it's crazy.

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Speaker 1: This feels like a very dark moment for a lot

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Speaker 1: of Democrats, right, because I mean, just from my point

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Speaker 1: of view, Vance is really a scary choice, right, it

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Speaker 1: feels like a very dark We've had this terrible crushing

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Speaker 1: Biden is old news cycle, then we had this really

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Speaker 1: just kind of grim.

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Speaker 5: The thing that you should be pleased about with Jade Vance.

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Speaker 5: He's a total shameless opportunist, right, so explain he doesn't

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Speaker 5: actually believe in any Yes, that is true. Might think

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Speaker 5: we've estaffed back over the years, so you know, Trump

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Speaker 5: isn't a true believe either in it from themselves. I mean,

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Speaker 5: that's just cynically. You might actually be able to take

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Speaker 5: some solows in there.

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Speaker 1: But what I think is interesting about Vance is that

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Speaker 1: I'm not convinced that he grows the electorate. Like as

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Speaker 1: a woman, there's nothing about jd. Vance that appeals to me.

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Speaker 3: I agree with that.

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Speaker 5: I mean it was he was not the logical choice

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Speaker 5: from a political standard.

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Speaker 1: If you were gaming this out politically, who in your mind? See,

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Speaker 1: I think like, had he pick Nikki Haley.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, Haley would have been great for him. But of

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Speaker 5: course Haley would have been great for the Republican Party,

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Speaker 5: even though it might have issues with her. She would

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Speaker 5: have won this election in the landslide, which is absolutely insane,

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Speaker 5: Which shows you the Republican parties insane even after all

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Speaker 5: that has happened, you know, five p. Thirty eight and

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Speaker 5: you could take them for them for what they're worth.

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Speaker 5: I mean basically says it's like fifty one percent chance

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Speaker 5: of I forget who.

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Speaker 4: Winning, right, but it's very tight.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, and it's all gonna be determined by turnout. And

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Speaker 3: you know, but the point is that if Haley.

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Speaker 5: Had been the nominee, it would have been loved in

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Speaker 5: a five or ten point plot.

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Speaker 4: Yes, but she's not.

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Speaker 5: Oh no. But that's the point is that's that's how

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Speaker 5: crazy the Republican Party is. I mean, they didn't you know,

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Speaker 5: they had so many obvious choices that took to make

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Speaker 5: and they had to go with this guy. Why it's

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Speaker 5: just the same.

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Speaker 1: Right, I mean, part of it is they just don't

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Speaker 1: have a real Like what I was struck by when

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Speaker 1: you listened to Vance and you I watched last night.

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Speaker 4: I watched the whole thing. Thank you, I win for

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Speaker 4: watching that whole thing.

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Speaker 1: And what was interesting to me about that night was

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Speaker 1: that it was the rhetoric was really toned down because

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Speaker 1: you had a lot of really crazy people up there.

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Speaker 1: You had Amber Rose, who's a she's an only fans,

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Speaker 1: she's famous for having dated Kanye. She has a tattoo

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Speaker 1: on her forehead. I thought I was seeing something. I

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Speaker 1: was like, I wrote to a political friend and I

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Speaker 1: was like, it looks like there's something on her forehead.

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Speaker 4: It's a tattoo. Right.

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Speaker 1: I always feel like face tattoos should be where we

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Speaker 1: call it off. But I mean, like tattoo anywhere else

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Speaker 1: but your face. Right, What I was.

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Speaker 4: Struck by was the rhetoric was really toned down.

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Speaker 1: But for them, if you tone down the rhetoric, there's

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Speaker 1: nothing else, right, Like, there's no policy. So it's not

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Speaker 1: like Amber Rose is up there talking about policy. She

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Speaker 1: was like, I was a Democrat, now I'm a Republican.

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Speaker 1: Republicans love people, we all love each other.

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Speaker 5: But it's a cult. That's the nature of a personality cult.

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Speaker 5: It's not a political party. It's personality cult. That's what

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Speaker 5: it is essentially.

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Speaker 1: But Jadie Vance is like he is a recent convert

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Speaker 1: to the cult. And also it feels to me like

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Speaker 1: and I don't quite understand this. He does seem so

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Speaker 1: ambitious that he would invoke the twenty fifth Amendment on

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Speaker 1: Trump if he could.

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Speaker 5: He's an opportunity. It's sort of like Star Wars. We

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Speaker 5: only end up with Sith Lord at a time because

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Speaker 5: one ends up killing the other. Right, I wouldn't trust

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Speaker 5: jd Vance as far as control, that's my take. But

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Speaker 5: that's easier said than not. It's hard to get the

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Speaker 5: emperor alone. I mean, look at how cowed the cabinet was.

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Speaker 5: I mean, you'll talk about the twenties froth.

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Speaker 1: A meenment, right, No, it's true. I mean, that's a

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Speaker 1: really good point. The president has a lot of.

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Speaker 5: Power, pa nearly a one who has such a committed

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Speaker 5: or group of supporters who are completely insane. We saw

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Speaker 5: that in twenty twenty one January. After January sixth, I mean,

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Speaker 5: there should have been no question the guy was not

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Speaker 5: in any condition to execute the office president of the

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Speaker 5: United States, you know, And there were discussions on the

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Speaker 5: cabinet members, but they were terrified to do it right

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Speaker 5: and Pence within Pennsy would have had to go along.

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Speaker 5: I wouldn't trust JD. Vance, but Trump has seen enough

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Speaker 5: sycophanic behavior from the guy that he knows that he

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Speaker 5: feels he can keep the guy under control. For Trump, weird,

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Speaker 5: Pence was the better choice. He doesn't have that kind

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Speaker 5: of ambition. He's ambitious enough to sacrifice his principles, as

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Speaker 5: we've seen, but he does have some kind of war

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Speaker 5: sense of right and wrong. He just gets confused about

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Speaker 5: it from time to time. I don't think Vance has

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Speaker 5: that core, since I think Vance is purely cynical in

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Speaker 5: the way that how frankly appreciates.

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Speaker 1: But what's interesting about if you look at the choice

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Speaker 1: of Pence versus the choice of Vans, Pence was really,

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Speaker 1: you know, he needed the evangelicals. Pence got him the evangelicals.

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Speaker 1: Then Pence was so good at getting him the evangelicals

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Speaker 1: that Trump didn't need Pence anymore.

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Speaker 4: But when it comes to JD.

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Speaker 3: Vans and say it's nothing.

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Speaker 1: He doesn't grow the electorate. Like working class men love Trump.

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Speaker 1: They're not going to love him more because of Jade Vance,

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Speaker 1: are they. I mean, unless I'm missing something, No.

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Speaker 5: He doesn't pull off the you know, he came into

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Speaker 5: this into the media environment after writing that book Killbilly Elergy,

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Speaker 5: but he's not really one of them, and for any

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Speaker 5: number of reasons, and he doesn't have the same kind

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Speaker 5: a pull. I think he's not going to have the

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Speaker 5: same kind of magnetism to the core MAGA base that

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Speaker 5: that Trump does. He turns off women, there's no question

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Speaker 5: about that. I think. I don't think he's he's attracted

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Speaker 5: candidate to a lot of women.

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Speaker 4: I mean, not to me, But what do I know?

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Speaker 5: Right, I got an earful from a lot of people

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Speaker 5: yesterday about that. It's like they couldn't believe women. They

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Speaker 5: couldn't believe like, well, I wouldn't have picked him. That's

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Speaker 5: that's that's good.

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Speaker 4: That's just good for them.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, go on, there's a joke somebody made about you

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Speaker 5: think people from Pennsylvania like people from Ohio.

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Speaker 3: They don't rare.

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Speaker 5: Yeah, yeah, So I don't see what he ASTs Urubo.

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Speaker 5: At least you you you know, you can lock down Florida.

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Speaker 5: Florida probably will go Republican, but it's you. You never know.

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Speaker 5: Florida's were logical choice with somebody else, But the best

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Speaker 5: choice would have been a Nikki Haley, right, But he

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Speaker 5: would never abide by that because he would never She's

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Speaker 5: not sycophanic enough.

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Speaker 1: Well, and also so she can't really exist in mega

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Speaker 1: right because the misogyny is the point.

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Speaker 5: And there's also racism. And we remember one of the

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Speaker 5: things that Trump was quoted as saying, I forget who

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Speaker 5: reported it, he said that Nicky Haley has a complexion problem.

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Speaker 1: Right, And the people discovering that Vance's wife is not

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Speaker 1: white are having that same conversation online right now in

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Speaker 1: varying degrees of disgusting. So there you go, just a

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Speaker 1: completely crazy you run on racism and then.

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Speaker 5: Right you look at the headline on Drudge jduv called

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Speaker 5: Trump voters idiots. Sounds kind of elitist to the.

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Speaker 1: Actually, George Conway, we got some legal, we got some political.

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Speaker 4: I still think that Joe Biden can do this.

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Speaker 3: I did that.

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Speaker 4: If you make this election about Donald Trump, Democrats can win.

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Speaker 5: That's what I've been saying. I've been seeing it publicly

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Speaker 5: or privately, but somebody's got to actually do that, and

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Speaker 5: it's got happling. See it.

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Speaker 1: Well, I hope it happens, and I hope that you

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Speaker 1: are involved in it.

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Speaker 4: George Conway. I hope you'll come back.

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Speaker 3: I shall.

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Speaker 1: Are you concerned about Project twenty twenty five and how

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Speaker 1: awful Trump's second term could be and will be if

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Speaker 1: he wins, Well, so are we, which is why we

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Speaker 1: partnered with iHeart to make a limited series with the

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Speaker 1: experts on what a disaster trump Ism would be for

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Speaker 1: America's future. Right now, you can find the first episode

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Speaker 1: by looking up Molly John Fast Project twenty twenty five

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Speaker 1: on YouTube.

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Speaker 4: If you're thinking you.

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Speaker 1: Are more of a podcast person than a YouTube person,

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Speaker 1: all you have to do is look it up on

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Speaker 1: YouTube and hit play and then lock the screen and

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Speaker 1: then you can listen to it as a podcast. New

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Speaker 1: episodes are dropping in the next few weeks as well.

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Speaker 1: We need to educate Americans on what Trump's second term

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Speaker 1: would do to this country, on what would happen in

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Speaker 1: Trump's second term and what it would do to this

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Speaker 1: Please watch and help US spread the word. Jason Stanley

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Speaker 1: is a professor at Yale as well as the author

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Speaker 1: of a racing history. Welcome back to Fast Politics. My friend,

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Speaker 1: and you actually are my friend. We do hang out,

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Speaker 1: which is amazing because I feel like I don't have

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Speaker 1: any friends.

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Speaker 2: Jason Stanley, Hi, Mollie.

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Speaker 3: It's always wonderful to be in conversation with you, even

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Speaker 3: or perhaps especially in these dramatic times.

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Speaker 4: So you're a fancy Yale professor.

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Speaker 1: So because you're a fancy Yale professor, you spent your

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Speaker 1: summer doing what fancy Yale professors do, which is teaching

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Speaker 1: and lecturing overseas.

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Speaker 4: You've been in Ukraine, You've been in.

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Speaker 3: Germany, Germany and Austria.

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Speaker 4: So what's the mood.

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Speaker 3: Well over there different moods in different places. In Ukraine, obviously,

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Speaker 3: the mood is grim. I was in Ukraine teaching in

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Speaker 3: August twenty twenty three at the very beginning stages of

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Speaker 3: the so called counter Offend, and the mood then was positive.

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Speaker 3: It's turned very grim. Obviously. The US elections bear directly

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Speaker 3: on that. The Ukrainians know what happens if the US

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Speaker 3: gives up on them. They know that their democracy doesn't

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Speaker 3: just come to an end. But if anyone has seen

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Speaker 3: pictures of what Russia does to the cities it invades,

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Speaker 3: it absolutely levels them. So Ukrainians know that they can

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Speaker 3: expect that if the US withdraws aid and they can

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Speaker 3: expect an emboldened Russia that will have much more international

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Speaker 3: power if they managed to win this war. So that

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Speaker 3: was Ukraine. I expect that's going to be a topic

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Speaker 3: of much more discussion now that Trump has selected JD.

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Speaker 3: Vance as his vice presidential running mink vance and is,

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Speaker 3: like many of these far right politicians worldwide, is partial

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Speaker 3: to Putin. So that's the Ukraine part of the story.

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Speaker 3: I mean, they're waiting.

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Speaker 4: So Trump is also partial to Putin.

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Speaker 3: Absolutely, so now you have two politicians. Vance in particular

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Speaker 3: is just one of his signature issues is not caring

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Speaker 3: about what happens to Ukraine. So Ukrainians are defending democracy.

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Speaker 3: They're defending their democracy, and they're defending democracy worldwide. This

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Speaker 3: is a very grim time for them.

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Speaker 4: I just want you to expand on this.

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Speaker 1: Russia rolling into Ukraine is not ultimately terrible for Ukraine.

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Speaker 1: But one of the reasons why they're getting all the

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Speaker 1: support is not because of Ukraine is so important to

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Speaker 1: the world. Though they are, you know whatever, They're relevant

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Speaker 1: and important. But part of the reason they're doing this

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Speaker 1: is because it feels very clear to a lot of people.

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Speaker 1: And I think I actually heard Joe Biden say this

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Speaker 1: is that once Putin is able to take Ukraine, he

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Speaker 1: will take Moldova, he will take these other smaller countries,

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Speaker 1: and sooner or later he will roll into Poland. And

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Speaker 1: that a lot of this is about stopping Putin's war

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Speaker 1: of aggression before he gets to Europe.

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Speaker 3: Well, so there's multiple things here. It's whether or not

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Speaker 3: you think Putin will eventually threaten Poland, and he may

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Speaker 3: very well. Putin is one of the central figures and

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Speaker 3: funding and backing the attack on democracy worldwide. If US

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Speaker 3: gives up on Ukraine, it puts Putin in an immensely

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Speaker 3: powerful international position. It shows to autocrats all over the

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Speaker 3: world that they will have a free hand, that the

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Speaker 3: United States will not protect democracies. It sends a signal

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Speaker 3: to China that they can do what they want with Taiwan.

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Speaker 3: Whereas if Ukraine does win the war, it substantially weakens

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Speaker 3: Putin's power and say on the international scene. So Essentially,

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Speaker 3: it really is the way we have to see the

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Speaker 3: world right now is as a fight between a unified

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Speaker 3: anti democratic international as we saw in the late twenties

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Speaker 3: and thirties, the fascist Internationale and forces that support that

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Speaker 3: are trying to defend replacing leaders by elections right system,

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Speaker 3: and Ukraine replaces leaders by elections. It's one of the

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Speaker 3: few countries in that part of the world that does.

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Speaker 3: Putin's Russia and Putin himself are the main supporters of

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Speaker 3: attacking systems where you can replace leaders by elections, and

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Speaker 3: so allowing Putin to shut down Ukraine's democracy and adding

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Speaker 3: Ukraine to essentially his empire will not only, as you

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Speaker 3: rightly point out, increase the military threat to Europe, but

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Speaker 3: it means that the forces that want to end replacing

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Speaker 3: leaders by elections will be massively empowered.

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Speaker 1: One of the things that was very hardening is what

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Speaker 1: happened in France. That was exactly what you're talking about,

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Speaker 1: this pro democracy coalition getting together and defeating the far right.

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Speaker 4: Can you explain that to us.

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Speaker 3: Yes, So Europe faces many of the same forces that

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Speaker 3: we do. I mean, really it's an international fight, and

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Speaker 3: in my month in Europe that was very clear to me,

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Speaker 3: and I just smoothly rolled into lectures, interviews, media discussions

438
00:22:21,280 --> 00:22:28,040
Speaker 3: about far right anti democratic movements that are vilifying immigrants,

439
00:22:28,359 --> 00:22:33,560
Speaker 3: that are vilifying LGBT, pushing for restrictions on abortion. There's

440
00:22:33,560 --> 00:22:36,359
Speaker 3: a lot of very similar issues happening, which is no

441
00:22:36,440 --> 00:22:40,680
Speaker 3: surprise given that we have an international anti democratic movement. Now,

442
00:22:40,680 --> 00:22:43,480
Speaker 3: what we saw in France is it took people by

443
00:22:43,520 --> 00:22:47,240
Speaker 3: surprise in a good way. Is we saw people who

444
00:22:47,320 --> 00:22:50,399
Speaker 3: usually bicker with each other unifying. So what we have

445
00:22:50,480 --> 00:22:53,280
Speaker 3: in the United States is we have we're seeing people

446
00:22:53,600 --> 00:22:56,280
Speaker 3: who don't agree with each other unifying. On the right,

447
00:22:56,560 --> 00:23:01,160
Speaker 3: we see LGBT billionaires like Peter Thiel supporting Christian nationalists.

448
00:23:01,240 --> 00:23:04,919
Speaker 3: We see different forces lining up behind an an anti

449
00:23:04,920 --> 00:23:09,640
Speaker 3: democratic movement. We need different forces who disagree with each

450
00:23:09,680 --> 00:23:13,080
Speaker 3: other lining up to defend democracy. And that's what you

451
00:23:13,119 --> 00:23:16,879
Speaker 3: saw in France, different left wing parties that usually bicker

452
00:23:16,960 --> 00:23:21,480
Speaker 3: and argue with each other deciding to run as a coalition.

453
00:23:21,760 --> 00:23:25,880
Speaker 3: So you had, in a shock, a really complete defeat.

454
00:23:25,920 --> 00:23:29,159
Speaker 3: I mean the pen she ended up with a large

455
00:23:29,240 --> 00:23:31,840
Speaker 3: amount of seats, but I mean it was a shock.

456
00:23:32,000 --> 00:23:34,600
Speaker 3: I think they finished third out of the three major

457
00:23:34,680 --> 00:23:39,399
Speaker 3: parties going into that election. Everyone was expecting the worst.

458
00:23:39,840 --> 00:23:46,240
Speaker 3: You had, you know, usually divided left, unifying for democracy.

459
00:23:46,280 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 3: And I just think it's a symbol for the world

460
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,800
Speaker 3: of what you need to do to beat autocracy in

461
00:23:52,840 --> 00:23:54,840
Speaker 3: the UK, because.

462
00:23:54,600 --> 00:23:57,000
Speaker 1: The thing is, I feel like there are so many

463
00:23:57,080 --> 00:24:02,359
Speaker 1: narratives that inadvertently or or perhaps purposefully, I'd like to

464
00:24:02,359 --> 00:24:07,080
Speaker 1: think it's Inaverton want to sort of try to sort

465
00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:12,320
Speaker 1: of pump up the narrative that this fall to autocracy

466
00:24:12,840 --> 00:24:17,160
Speaker 1: is inevitable. But the UK is a really good example

467
00:24:17,320 --> 00:24:20,919
Speaker 1: of they really did reject you know, they rejected gb News,

468
00:24:21,000 --> 00:24:24,480
Speaker 1: which was a news station started by Rupert Murdoch to

469
00:24:24,560 --> 00:24:28,800
Speaker 1: try to sell them Brexit, and then they rejected this

470
00:24:29,000 --> 00:24:30,200
Speaker 1: far right party too.

471
00:24:30,480 --> 00:24:33,120
Speaker 3: Can you talk about the UK it's more complice because

472
00:24:33,160 --> 00:24:37,639
Speaker 3: the Conservatives just destroyed the country and take an enormous

473
00:24:37,800 --> 00:24:41,200
Speaker 3: amount of reality denial to look at the UKA and

474
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,639
Speaker 3: not just see that the Conservatives just utterly destroyed the

475
00:24:46,760 --> 00:24:50,359
Speaker 3: UK and so fourteen years of rule and it's just like,

476
00:24:50,640 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 3: you know, it's just on along so many dimensions. The

477
00:24:56,840 --> 00:25:01,320
Speaker 3: country was so weakened, the NHL, National Health Service, the

478
00:25:02,240 --> 00:25:08,080
Speaker 3: so many aspects of what makes the UK distinctive flourishing

479
00:25:08,600 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 3: were just severely damaged by the long Conservative rule. It

480
00:25:13,040 --> 00:25:16,119
Speaker 3: was just self evident to so many people that the

481
00:25:16,119 --> 00:25:20,960
Speaker 3: cultural politics of the Conservatives were hiding a really nefarious

482
00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,160
Speaker 3: economic agenda that was terrible for Britain. So I think,

483
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,600
Speaker 3: when you know we see this in the United States,

484
00:25:27,640 --> 00:25:30,000
Speaker 3: when you know we saw it, say under Bush, when

485
00:25:30,400 --> 00:25:32,280
Speaker 3: to some extent we saw it in Trump's first turn,

486
00:25:32,400 --> 00:25:35,560
Speaker 3: and not to some extent we saw it. Republicans come in,

487
00:25:35,880 --> 00:25:39,840
Speaker 3: they pass an enormous tax cut for corporations and billionaires

488
00:25:40,160 --> 00:25:43,440
Speaker 3: while telling the working class that they're for them, and

489
00:25:43,480 --> 00:25:49,120
Speaker 3: then the economy, the US spirals massively into some crushing

490
00:25:49,160 --> 00:25:52,399
Speaker 3: economic crisis, and then the Democrats come in and have

491
00:25:52,520 --> 00:25:55,479
Speaker 3: to clean things up. So that's what we saw with Biden.

492
00:25:55,640 --> 00:25:59,399
Speaker 3: We had multiple crises. Under the Trump's first term, we

493
00:25:59,440 --> 00:26:03,879
Speaker 3: had this enormous tax cut that just you know, exponentially

494
00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:08,080
Speaker 3: increased our deficit, and Biden came in and did things

495
00:26:08,119 --> 00:26:12,040
Speaker 3: for the working class, and the US economy is thriving

496
00:26:12,080 --> 00:26:14,879
Speaker 3: and flourishing. So I think that's really what happened in

497
00:26:14,920 --> 00:26:17,919
Speaker 3: the UK, that the cultural politics of the Conservatives just

498
00:26:18,160 --> 00:26:20,919
Speaker 3: people finally realized, Okay, this is ruining our country. But

499
00:26:21,000 --> 00:26:23,840
Speaker 3: I think a country we can look to is Poland.

500
00:26:23,920 --> 00:26:25,399
Speaker 4: Yes, can you talk about that?

501
00:26:25,680 --> 00:26:27,600
Speaker 3: Yes? I think the two figures you need to look

502
00:26:27,640 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 3: at in the world as sort of central figures in

503
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:33,919
Speaker 3: the attack on democracy are Puten and Victor o Abaun,

504
00:26:34,240 --> 00:26:37,160
Speaker 3: and Victor Arbau is doing it within Europe. Of course,

505
00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 3: Victorn recently went to Moscow and then went to visit

506
00:26:40,960 --> 00:26:45,280
Speaker 3: Trump in Florida. So Poland, the Peace the Law and

507
00:26:45,520 --> 00:26:49,440
Speaker 3: Justice Party took up Victor Baund's politics in Poland. When

508
00:26:49,440 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 3: they won, they replaced the courts. So there's now sort

509
00:26:52,960 --> 00:26:57,359
Speaker 3: of a standard mechanism. You replace the courts by justices

510
00:26:57,800 --> 00:27:00,959
Speaker 3: that are loyal to the party, to the League and

511
00:27:01,040 --> 00:27:04,600
Speaker 3: Poland or Bond died that. Poland did that. You find

512
00:27:04,880 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 3: judges who are pretty explicitly in the pocket of the

513
00:27:10,160 --> 00:27:14,200
Speaker 3: anti democratic party, and you strong arm your way through

514
00:27:14,240 --> 00:27:19,520
Speaker 3: the justice system to replace more impartial justices by those justices.

515
00:27:19,560 --> 00:27:23,119
Speaker 3: That's the first and most important stage. Peace did that,

516
00:27:23,720 --> 00:27:26,080
Speaker 3: or Bond did that long ago. Then you use the

517
00:27:26,119 --> 00:27:30,359
Speaker 3: courts to target the media, to target your political opponents,

518
00:27:30,760 --> 00:27:36,280
Speaker 3: to target business people, to target businesses that your friends desire,

519
00:27:36,640 --> 00:27:39,159
Speaker 3: so you've can force help them to your friends. So

520
00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:43,639
Speaker 3: or Buck perfected that, and Poland just took up that strategy.

521
00:27:43,680 --> 00:27:46,800
Speaker 3: We can see from Orbond's frequent visits to the Heritage

522
00:27:46,840 --> 00:27:50,640
Speaker 3: Foundation and tomorrow Lago that they're really taking advice from

523
00:27:50,720 --> 00:27:53,760
Speaker 3: him about how to do this. So've already done it.

524
00:27:53,800 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 3: They've already done it to a large extent. But the second,

525
00:27:57,600 --> 00:28:00,760
Speaker 3: if Trump wins, will see a much more complete destruction

526
00:28:00,920 --> 00:28:03,359
Speaker 3: of the rule of law and the replacement of the

527
00:28:03,440 --> 00:28:05,959
Speaker 3: rule of law by the rule of Trump and the courts.

528
00:28:06,480 --> 00:28:10,560
Speaker 3: So in Poland, what happened is that Pea's lost, which

529
00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,760
Speaker 3: one had predicted, because Peace had controlled the media, Peace

530
00:28:14,880 --> 00:28:18,720
Speaker 3: controlled the courts, and Law and Justice is still a

531
00:28:18,840 --> 00:28:24,080
Speaker 3: very powerful party in Poland. But they lost due to

532
00:28:24,080 --> 00:28:30,359
Speaker 3: to a unified anti autocratic, anti authoritarian political movement. The

533
00:28:30,880 --> 00:28:34,199
Speaker 3: people who objected to what was happening to Poland, who

534
00:28:34,200 --> 00:28:38,080
Speaker 3: didn't want to see Poland become another Hungary, lined up

535
00:28:38,120 --> 00:28:43,280
Speaker 3: together and defeated the authoritarian party. Now, of course, we

536
00:28:43,320 --> 00:28:48,000
Speaker 3: still have the justices in Poland, the legal judges in

537
00:28:48,040 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 3: Poland that are essentially in the pockets of the Law

538
00:28:51,080 --> 00:28:54,240
Speaker 3: and Justice Party. We still have the damage that so

539
00:28:54,320 --> 00:28:58,160
Speaker 3: many years of rule of essentially a kind of one

540
00:28:58,200 --> 00:29:03,120
Speaker 3: party state did, but by unifying against them, they defeated them.

541
00:29:03,280 --> 00:29:07,320
Speaker 3: That is really hopeful. And it's not like the case

542
00:29:07,320 --> 00:29:11,240
Speaker 3: of UK where if you're still voting on make Britain

543
00:29:11,320 --> 00:29:17,120
Speaker 3: Great Again, you're really just not seeing the complete dismantling

544
00:29:17,160 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 3: of your country.

545
00:29:18,160 --> 00:29:19,080
Speaker 4: I'm curious if.

546
00:29:18,960 --> 00:29:25,200
Speaker 1: You could explain sort of what is appealing to American voters.

547
00:29:25,400 --> 00:29:27,440
Speaker 4: I understand that Trump has.

548
00:29:27,200 --> 00:29:31,720
Speaker 1: This message, but like very rich people are very very

549
00:29:31,800 --> 00:29:34,040
Speaker 1: rich people, like the richest people in the world, all

550
00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:37,840
Speaker 1: want Trump and it can't just be for the tax cut.

551
00:29:38,000 --> 00:29:41,120
Speaker 1: There has to be something else that is driving this.

552
00:29:41,680 --> 00:29:44,760
Speaker 3: Right or now, Yes, there is something else driving this,

553
00:29:45,000 --> 00:29:48,520
Speaker 3: as you know, but let's begin with the pragmatic issues

554
00:29:48,560 --> 00:29:51,480
Speaker 3: that you've just raised. It's not just the tax cuts.

555
00:29:51,560 --> 00:29:55,840
Speaker 3: It's the complete destruction of the regulatory apparatus of government

556
00:29:55,880 --> 00:29:59,800
Speaker 3: that is prom and so you can basically pollute the SKA.

557
00:30:00,400 --> 00:30:04,280
Speaker 3: You can see what's happened by the justices he's appointed

558
00:30:04,280 --> 00:30:07,520
Speaker 3: in the Supreme Court. You can dismantle the regulatory power,

559
00:30:07,520 --> 00:30:11,520
Speaker 3: the power of the regulatory agencies, giving massive power to

560
00:30:11,600 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 3: those who want to pollute the skies, exploit their labor,

561
00:30:15,480 --> 00:30:18,600
Speaker 3: labor forces you're just giving you you know, you're bringing

562
00:30:18,600 --> 00:30:22,440
Speaker 3: America back to the early twentieth century. So that just

563
00:30:22,600 --> 00:30:25,239
Speaker 3: helps corporations who don't want to have to deal with

564
00:30:25,320 --> 00:30:28,200
Speaker 3: environmental issues. I mean, we have to remember, before there

565
00:30:28,400 --> 00:30:33,720
Speaker 3: was an EPA, before there was serious environmental regulatory structure,

566
00:30:34,080 --> 00:30:37,200
Speaker 3: you know, our cities were a lot filthier and more

567
00:30:37,200 --> 00:30:40,440
Speaker 3: polluted than they are now. So we can expect to

568
00:30:40,480 --> 00:30:42,680
Speaker 3: go back to that, and that's in the interests of

569
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:45,880
Speaker 3: all the businessmen who want to enrich themselves at the

570
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:49,240
Speaker 3: cost of our country. So there's those practical elements. Then

571
00:30:49,280 --> 00:30:52,880
Speaker 3: the second part, which is a mixture of practical and personal,

572
00:30:53,160 --> 00:30:56,960
Speaker 3: is that the billionaire class often thinks this happened with

573
00:30:57,000 --> 00:31:00,080
Speaker 3: Putin as well, often thinks that, oh, well, if we

574
00:31:00,120 --> 00:31:04,120
Speaker 3: get ourselves in with the autocrat, then it will help

575
00:31:04,240 --> 00:31:07,480
Speaker 3: us because he's going to have his favorites. So that's

576
00:31:07,480 --> 00:31:08,440
Speaker 3: what you're seeing.

577
00:31:08,160 --> 00:31:08,960
Speaker 5: Now a lot.

578
00:31:09,320 --> 00:31:11,760
Speaker 3: You know, like, Okay, if we line up behind him,

579
00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 3: he's going to bend the government to our favor and

580
00:31:14,760 --> 00:31:18,240
Speaker 3: that's right. Trump will pick people he likes, but you

581
00:31:18,280 --> 00:31:23,719
Speaker 3: know it's going to be on very chaotic and arbitrary grounds.

582
00:31:24,080 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 3: You're kissing his ass now will be fairly arbitrarily related

583
00:31:28,720 --> 00:31:31,080
Speaker 3: to whether or not he chooses to use the quarts

584
00:31:31,120 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 3: to punish you, to enrich other people he might be

585
00:31:34,400 --> 00:31:38,360
Speaker 3: interested in enriching. It's just all about currying favor with him.

586
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:41,240
Speaker 3: But what we've seen from the past is that, and

587
00:31:41,320 --> 00:31:45,160
Speaker 3: even the recent past, is that the oligarchs think, oh, well,

588
00:31:45,440 --> 00:31:47,200
Speaker 3: you know, I can make him my friend and that

589
00:31:47,280 --> 00:31:50,320
Speaker 3: will benefit me over this system we have where it's

590
00:31:50,360 --> 00:31:54,680
Speaker 3: all pretty fair. Free market capitalism not fair. But and

591
00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:58,160
Speaker 3: then the final thing is this machismo. A lot of business.

592
00:31:58,360 --> 00:32:01,520
Speaker 3: You know, I won't mention any names here. A lot

593
00:32:01,520 --> 00:32:06,520
Speaker 3: of super powerful, wealthy people don't think democratically. Hitler was

594
00:32:06,600 --> 00:32:08,680
Speaker 3: very aware of this. There's a speech he gave to

595
00:32:08,680 --> 00:32:12,440
Speaker 3: the industrialists who He's like, you don't think democratically. You

596
00:32:12,480 --> 00:32:16,160
Speaker 3: think you're the boss. You shouldn't want a political system

597
00:32:16,240 --> 00:32:19,280
Speaker 3: where everyone thinks democratically. You should want a political system

598
00:32:19,280 --> 00:32:22,320
Speaker 3: where there's a boss and everyone else. And that's what's

599
00:32:22,360 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 3: going on now. A lot of the oligarchs, they just

600
00:32:25,080 --> 00:32:28,880
Speaker 3: are horrified or disgusted by the fact that Joe Schmoe

601
00:32:28,880 --> 00:32:32,200
Speaker 3: and New Jersey can vote to raise their taxes. You know,

602
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:36,480
Speaker 3: they think of themselves as people who did it all themselves,

603
00:32:36,960 --> 00:32:40,280
Speaker 3: and it's a winners and losers world, and winners should

604
00:32:40,320 --> 00:32:45,280
Speaker 3: get everything. And so that is the ideology Trump presents.

605
00:32:45,320 --> 00:32:49,200
Speaker 1: Right, and I guess that's very appealing to wealthy people,

606
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,400
Speaker 1: though it's insane, and we've seen before that what it

607
00:32:53,440 --> 00:32:57,600
Speaker 1: will do ultimately is, you know, having a fed controlled

608
00:32:57,640 --> 00:33:01,920
Speaker 1: by a leader will ultimately kill the economy. Jason, thank

609
00:33:02,000 --> 00:33:04,120
Speaker 1: you so much for joining us. I hope you'll come back.

610
00:33:04,480 --> 00:33:05,840
Speaker 3: Thank you, of course, anytime.

611
00:33:05,920 --> 00:33:12,760
Speaker 1: Molly Kate Shaw is a law professor at University of Pennsylvania,

612
00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:17,040
Speaker 1: co host of the podcast Strict Scrutiny, and an ABC

613
00:33:17,360 --> 00:33:18,480
Speaker 1: legal analyst.

614
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,520
Speaker 4: Welcome back to Fast Politics, Kate Shaw.

615
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:22,880
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me, Molly.

616
00:33:23,120 --> 00:33:25,719
Speaker 1: I'm so happy to have you because I think of

617
00:33:25,760 --> 00:33:27,880
Speaker 1: you as one of those people who makes the law

618
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:30,400
Speaker 1: accessible to me. And when we say accessible, it always

619
00:33:30,400 --> 00:33:32,120
Speaker 1: sounds like, you know, that we're sort of saying the

620
00:33:32,120 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: prison is a little bit stupid, which may or may

621
00:33:34,800 --> 00:33:38,280
Speaker 1: not be true about me, But it's more that we're

622
00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:41,160
Speaker 1: right now, we're watching the Supreme Court do things with

623
00:33:41,240 --> 00:33:44,000
Speaker 1: the law that none of us could have anticipated, and

624
00:33:44,200 --> 00:33:47,520
Speaker 1: so the more we talk about it, I feel like,

625
00:33:47,760 --> 00:33:49,760
Speaker 1: the better it is for all.

626
00:33:49,680 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 4: Of us just to understand what the hell is going on.

627
00:33:52,120 --> 00:33:55,280
Speaker 4: So my first question, this is like a long way

628
00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:56,640
Speaker 4: of leading up to this, but my first.

629
00:33:56,560 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: Question is sort of we had these two seismics, blockbuster decisions,

630
00:34:02,080 --> 00:34:05,479
Speaker 1: one that gave the executive more power immunity, right, Nixon,

631
00:34:05,560 --> 00:34:08,600
Speaker 1: Whatever the president does is fine, because what are crimes anyway?

632
00:34:09,000 --> 00:34:11,440
Speaker 1: And then the other one, which is this, you know,

633
00:34:11,920 --> 00:34:15,600
Speaker 1: this sort of trying to dismantle the administrative state with Chevron.

634
00:34:15,840 --> 00:34:19,040
Speaker 1: I would love you to talk about them, but also

635
00:34:19,280 --> 00:34:22,239
Speaker 1: about sort of what you think is going on there.

636
00:34:22,840 --> 00:34:25,600
Speaker 6: Sure, I totally agree with that basic observation, which is

637
00:34:25,640 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 6: that the law is kind of inaccessible and opaque, and

638
00:34:29,160 --> 00:34:31,240
Speaker 6: a lot of the time I think that's by design.

639
00:34:31,440 --> 00:34:32,160
Speaker 2: I think the.

640
00:34:32,120 --> 00:34:37,719
Speaker 6: Justices shroud the institution in secrecy quite deliberately, and they say, well,

641
00:34:37,800 --> 00:34:40,839
Speaker 6: our work product is transparent, anyone can read it, but

642
00:34:40,880 --> 00:34:43,359
Speaker 6: they do not write in an accessible fashion, and so

643
00:34:43,400 --> 00:34:45,880
Speaker 6: I do think a lot of translation is required. You know.

644
00:34:45,920 --> 00:34:49,080
Speaker 6: In some ways, I think the immunity decision was more

645
00:34:49,239 --> 00:34:52,680
Speaker 6: direct and straightforward in that it really did say without

646
00:34:52,719 --> 00:34:54,920
Speaker 6: saying the sentence you said, Molly, right, if the president

647
00:34:54,960 --> 00:34:57,200
Speaker 6: does it that means it's not illegal, which is of

648
00:34:57,239 --> 00:35:01,320
Speaker 6: course the famous Nixon comment and his interview with Robert Frost.

649
00:35:01,640 --> 00:35:04,799
Speaker 6: That's basically what the decision says, that much of what

650
00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 6: the president does while president can never be subject to

651
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:13,319
Speaker 6: criminal consequences even after the president leaves office. And that's

652
00:35:13,400 --> 00:35:15,880
Speaker 6: just not something we've ever had as a principle in

653
00:35:15,920 --> 00:35:19,920
Speaker 6: our law. In fact, everything in our constitutional tradition runs

654
00:35:20,040 --> 00:35:22,319
Speaker 6: exactly in the opposite direction. I mean to go back

655
00:35:22,360 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 6: to Nixon for a minute. You know, when Nixon left office,

656
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,320
Speaker 6: the understanding was that he was very vulnerable to criminal

657
00:35:29,480 --> 00:35:32,880
Speaker 6: charge and trial and conviction, and the reason that his successor,

658
00:35:32,960 --> 00:35:36,359
Speaker 6: Gerald Ford, pardoned him was to spare him and the

659
00:35:36,400 --> 00:35:39,719
Speaker 6: country from the process of a criminal trial. And the

660
00:35:39,719 --> 00:35:43,880
Speaker 6: pardon itself that Ford wrote basically said, Nixon has already

661
00:35:43,920 --> 00:35:47,440
Speaker 6: suffered this grave indignity of having to leave the office

662
00:35:47,480 --> 00:35:51,000
Speaker 6: in disgrace, and that's pretty serious punishment. And for that reason,

663
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:52,959
Speaker 6: I'm going to grant him a pardon. But the pardon

664
00:35:53,000 --> 00:35:56,840
Speaker 6: would never have been necessary if Nixon couldn't be prosecuted anyway.

665
00:35:56,840 --> 00:36:00,000
Speaker 6: And essentially that's what this immunity decision involving Donald try

666
00:36:00,000 --> 00:36:03,720
Speaker 6: Trump says the president, when he does things as president,

667
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 6: can never be criminally prosecuted, even if the things he

668
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,520
Speaker 6: does as president violate the law.

669
00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:09,960
Speaker 2: Right.

670
00:36:10,280 --> 00:36:12,640
Speaker 6: So that's I think the core holding of that opinion,

671
00:36:12,680 --> 00:36:16,520
Speaker 6: and I think it's a wildly dangerous one, and I

672
00:36:16,520 --> 00:36:19,040
Speaker 6: think it's it would be dangerous under any circumstances. It

673
00:36:19,120 --> 00:36:22,719
Speaker 6: is especially dangerous in that it's been issued at a

674
00:36:22,719 --> 00:36:26,759
Speaker 6: moment when obviously the front runner for the presidency right now,

675
00:36:26,800 --> 00:36:31,800
Speaker 6: Donald Trump, has pledged to exact retribution upon his enemies

676
00:36:32,280 --> 00:36:34,239
Speaker 6: and to engage in all manner of other activities, some

677
00:36:34,280 --> 00:36:37,000
Speaker 6: of which might violate law. But it turns out under

678
00:36:37,000 --> 00:36:41,239
Speaker 6: this opinion, he himself will not face any possibility of

679
00:36:41,280 --> 00:36:46,120
Speaker 6: criminal liability, even for violating clear statutory law. So that's

680
00:36:46,280 --> 00:36:49,239
Speaker 6: decision one that I think was a real earthquake on

681
00:36:49,280 --> 00:36:50,480
Speaker 6: the very last day of the term.

682
00:36:50,800 --> 00:36:52,840
Speaker 1: I would like to pause and just say, for the

683
00:36:52,880 --> 00:36:56,040
Speaker 1: two of us, you know, you're married to someone who's

684
00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:59,200
Speaker 1: on cable news. You're on cable news. I'm on cable news.

685
00:36:59,719 --> 00:37:02,719
Speaker 1: There is it certainly a feeling. I don't know if

686
00:37:02,800 --> 00:37:06,720
Speaker 1: you feel this way, but I certainly feel like Trump

687
00:37:06,760 --> 00:37:10,480
Speaker 1: has already said that he's going to exact retribution on

688
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:15,399
Speaker 1: you know, whether it's Maggie or it's Joe, or it's

689
00:37:15,560 --> 00:37:18,359
Speaker 1: you know, I mean, we are in the crosshairs here.

690
00:37:18,680 --> 00:37:20,279
Speaker 6: Yeah, I mean, I think he's been really clear that

691
00:37:20,320 --> 00:37:22,560
Speaker 6: the people that he' views as his enemies, and that's

692
00:37:22,719 --> 00:37:26,360
Speaker 6: some members of the kind of professional democratic classorate, actual

693
00:37:26,360 --> 00:37:29,480
Speaker 6: politicians that Biden family, people like that, but also the press,

694
00:37:29,520 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 6: Like he has said very clearly that on his enemies

695
00:37:32,800 --> 00:37:34,360
Speaker 6: list are members of the press.

696
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:35,839
Speaker 2: And you know, in addition to.

697
00:37:36,120 --> 00:37:40,160
Speaker 6: What's in the opinion about just kind of general criminal immunity,

698
00:37:40,480 --> 00:37:45,120
Speaker 6: there's a long discussion of the basically sacricinct relationship between

699
00:37:45,120 --> 00:37:48,200
Speaker 6: the president and the Department of Justice, and the suggestion

700
00:37:48,280 --> 00:37:50,280
Speaker 6: is that the president can tell the Department of Justice

701
00:37:50,800 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 6: to do anything he wants and that no court can

702
00:37:53,960 --> 00:37:57,040
Speaker 6: second guess that, and that in some ways is as

703
00:37:57,160 --> 00:38:01,040
Speaker 6: chilling to me as the holding about immune because there

704
00:38:01,080 --> 00:38:05,239
Speaker 6: has always been an understanding in democratic and Republican administrations

705
00:38:05,280 --> 00:38:08,480
Speaker 6: alike that there is a degree of separation between the

706
00:38:08,520 --> 00:38:10,880
Speaker 6: political actors in the White House and right around the

707
00:38:10,920 --> 00:38:14,480
Speaker 6: president and the prosecutors in the Department of Justice, and

708
00:38:14,760 --> 00:38:18,560
Speaker 6: there has been this kind of insurgent component of the

709
00:38:18,560 --> 00:38:22,200
Speaker 6: conservative legal movement that for decades has basically said that

710
00:38:22,239 --> 00:38:24,560
Speaker 6: the president actually needs to have more control over the

711
00:38:24,680 --> 00:38:28,880
Speaker 6: entire apparatus of government, maybe most importantly the Department of Justice.

712
00:38:29,000 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 6: But the traditions of the DOJ have been very opposed

713
00:38:33,000 --> 00:38:35,000
Speaker 6: to that. I mean, the reason that Trump got such

714
00:38:35,160 --> 00:38:38,360
Speaker 6: pushback in DJ when he tried to weaponize the department

715
00:38:38,400 --> 00:38:41,480
Speaker 6: to help him in his post election efforts is because

716
00:38:41,520 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 6: those norms are so internalized by DOJ officials that no,

717
00:38:45,120 --> 00:38:47,880
Speaker 6: you don't just do the political bidding of the president,

718
00:38:47,960 --> 00:38:50,520
Speaker 6: because there is a degree of independence at the department

719
00:38:51,000 --> 00:38:55,000
Speaker 6: basically since it's post Civil war, founding has been understood

720
00:38:55,000 --> 00:38:59,160
Speaker 6: to possess. And the opinion says basically that none of

721
00:38:59,200 --> 00:39:03,799
Speaker 6: that is constituted required and maybe it's even constitutionally problematic

722
00:39:03,840 --> 00:39:07,040
Speaker 6: for the DJ to exercise independent So that suggests, you know,

723
00:39:07,080 --> 00:39:10,480
Speaker 6: the president would be immune from going after adversaries, but

724
00:39:10,560 --> 00:39:14,640
Speaker 6: also that he has the constitutional authority to tell DOJ

725
00:39:14,800 --> 00:39:17,680
Speaker 6: to do whatever he wants it to do. And I mean,

726
00:39:17,880 --> 00:39:19,919
Speaker 6: I think it's actually really important to try to push

727
00:39:19,920 --> 00:39:22,120
Speaker 6: back on that opinion in that age, just because the

728
00:39:22,120 --> 00:39:25,200
Speaker 6: court says it that's just one actor, and you know,

729
00:39:25,560 --> 00:39:28,439
Speaker 6: individuals inside the Department of Justice can decide the court

730
00:39:28,480 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 6: is incorrect and its assessment of the proper relationship between

731
00:39:31,600 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 6: the Department of Justice and the president. But also I

732
00:39:34,320 --> 00:39:36,319
Speaker 6: think it's possible to read the opinion as saying, well,

733
00:39:36,600 --> 00:39:40,000
Speaker 6: the President can never face consequences for telling DJ what

734
00:39:40,120 --> 00:39:42,520
Speaker 6: to do, you know, even if it's for you know,

735
00:39:42,600 --> 00:39:45,160
Speaker 6: corrupt motives or self serving motives or things like that.

736
00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:50,239
Speaker 6: But that does not mean that that DOJ attorneys don't

737
00:39:50,280 --> 00:39:52,680
Speaker 6: have their own legal obligations. And if there are statutes

738
00:39:52,719 --> 00:39:55,239
Speaker 6: that require them to act based on their best view

739
00:39:55,280 --> 00:39:57,120
Speaker 6: of the law and not what the president's sort of

740
00:39:57,160 --> 00:40:01,080
Speaker 6: whim suggests they should do, and constitutionalms and obligations, that

741
00:40:01,160 --> 00:40:04,439
Speaker 6: DOJ attorneys still have those. So I actually think there's

742
00:40:04,480 --> 00:40:06,480
Speaker 6: that that's a really important part of the opinion, like

743
00:40:06,600 --> 00:40:08,280
Speaker 6: what it says, and I think it says quite dangerous

744
00:40:08,280 --> 00:40:11,880
Speaker 6: things about that relationship. But it doesn't totally end, in

745
00:40:11,920 --> 00:40:14,880
Speaker 6: my mind, at least, the practice, the long settle practice

746
00:40:14,880 --> 00:40:17,640
Speaker 6: of the DOJ understanding itself to have a degree of

747
00:40:17,640 --> 00:40:19,640
Speaker 6: independence and autonomy from the president.

748
00:40:19,960 --> 00:40:25,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's right, and it is really just unbelievably scary

749
00:40:25,239 --> 00:40:28,080
Speaker 1: and also weird. I mean, not to put too fine

750
00:40:28,080 --> 00:40:30,319
Speaker 1: a point on it, there is a feeling I think

751
00:40:30,360 --> 00:40:32,400
Speaker 1: a lot of people are having right now, which is

752
00:40:32,920 --> 00:40:37,480
Speaker 1: that the Supreme Court and the billionaire class are pretty

753
00:40:37,640 --> 00:40:41,399
Speaker 1: committed to trying to make Donald Trump president and they

754
00:40:41,400 --> 00:40:44,920
Speaker 1: will do anything. I'm a little bit in despair about it.

755
00:40:45,000 --> 00:40:47,360
Speaker 1: I don't know how you feel. Tell me something that

756
00:40:47,560 --> 00:40:49,320
Speaker 1: will make me feel less depressed about this.

757
00:40:50,640 --> 00:40:53,279
Speaker 6: Well, that's usually my role on the podcast that I

758
00:40:53,280 --> 00:40:57,759
Speaker 6: co host, Like I think dispositionally inclined to optimism and

759
00:40:57,960 --> 00:41:00,520
Speaker 6: like ascribing good faith to most early least a lot

760
00:41:00,560 --> 00:41:02,960
Speaker 6: of actors. And I too feel like pretty despairing at

761
00:41:02,960 --> 00:41:05,240
Speaker 6: the moment. I mean, I think despair is not an option,

762
00:41:05,360 --> 00:41:08,400
Speaker 6: like we have to keep at it because there's no alternative.

763
00:41:08,440 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 6: But I think it is very very difficult. I mean,

764
00:41:10,440 --> 00:41:12,600
Speaker 6: I think that, and that's part of the reason I'm

765
00:41:12,640 --> 00:41:16,160
Speaker 6: actually coming back to DOJ because I too feel that

766
00:41:16,320 --> 00:41:19,719
Speaker 6: I have very little faith that if it comes down

767
00:41:19,760 --> 00:41:23,520
Speaker 6: to one or two outcome determinative states in the presidential election,

768
00:41:23,719 --> 00:41:26,960
Speaker 6: and there's some litigation that ends up at the Supreme Court,

769
00:41:27,320 --> 00:41:29,959
Speaker 6: the notion that the Court will simply act in good

770
00:41:30,000 --> 00:41:34,080
Speaker 6: faith and decide what the law requires it seems so naive.

771
00:41:33,800 --> 00:41:35,879
Speaker 2: To even like entertain that possibility.

772
00:41:35,920 --> 00:41:37,879
Speaker 6: So it does feel to me as though if it's

773
00:41:37,920 --> 00:41:41,160
Speaker 6: close and the court is going to make some decisive determination,

774
00:41:41,800 --> 00:41:44,040
Speaker 6: things will obviously break in favor of Donald Trump. It's

775
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,360
Speaker 6: very hard for me to see if there's a remotely

776
00:41:46,400 --> 00:41:49,120
Speaker 6: plausible legal argument, and good lawyers can always make them.

777
00:41:49,120 --> 00:41:51,720
Speaker 6: And so this is I guess a place to maybe

778
00:41:51,719 --> 00:41:53,319
Speaker 6: like locate a little bit of hope if there is

779
00:41:53,360 --> 00:41:55,960
Speaker 6: any I mean one lawyers will have a lot of

780
00:41:55,960 --> 00:41:59,279
Speaker 6: power here to decide whether to cooperate in advancing a

781
00:41:59,320 --> 00:42:02,000
Speaker 6: set of legal arguments that are specious but maybe could

782
00:42:02,040 --> 00:42:04,719
Speaker 6: be made to look plausible that could help Trump win

783
00:42:04,840 --> 00:42:06,640
Speaker 6: in one or two states that could tip the balance,

784
00:42:06,760 --> 00:42:08,359
Speaker 6: or they could decide not to. I mean, I do

785
00:42:08,400 --> 00:42:11,919
Speaker 6: think you saw many, many, not all, but many law

786
00:42:11,960 --> 00:42:16,680
Speaker 6: firms and practicing lawyers essentially turn away from assisting in

787
00:42:16,800 --> 00:42:20,440
Speaker 6: the post election efforts to contest Joe Biden's victory in

788
00:42:20,480 --> 00:42:23,279
Speaker 6: twenty twenty, and so, like you know, the kind of

789
00:42:23,719 --> 00:42:26,680
Speaker 6: legal culture and legal norms and norms in the world

790
00:42:26,680 --> 00:42:30,800
Speaker 6: of law that discourage and maybe meet out professional consequences

791
00:42:30,840 --> 00:42:34,920
Speaker 6: to individuals who assist an effort to thwart the Democratic will. Like,

792
00:42:34,960 --> 00:42:37,640
Speaker 6: I think that's one possible like lever that could matter,

793
00:42:37,760 --> 00:42:39,759
Speaker 6: And I do think another one is you know, the

794
00:42:39,840 --> 00:42:44,480
Speaker 6: levers inside government, and that presupposes that Trump wins. But

795
00:42:44,560 --> 00:42:47,040
Speaker 6: I do think that in terms of, you know, staunching

796
00:42:47,480 --> 00:42:51,320
Speaker 6: some of the worst potential consequences of a Trump victory,

797
00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:55,480
Speaker 6: there will be actors inside the federal agencies that will

798
00:42:55,480 --> 00:42:58,680
Speaker 6: be in a position to actually push back in meaningful ways.

799
00:42:58,880 --> 00:43:00,600
Speaker 6: Although I do think the Supreme Court made it much harder.

800
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:02,600
Speaker 6: But that's already like at a pretty big bleak place.

801
00:43:02,680 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 6: I'm saying, like, here are some things that can be

802
00:43:04,760 --> 00:43:09,799
Speaker 6: done to mitigate the awfulness of a second Trump administration.

803
00:43:09,960 --> 00:43:11,960
Speaker 6: But I think that it would again be naive not

804
00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:13,759
Speaker 6: to be thinking about that. Maybe the last thing I'll

805
00:43:13,760 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 6: say is like, if there's a very decisive win for

806
00:43:17,080 --> 00:43:20,560
Speaker 6: the Democratic candidate that cannot be undone.

807
00:43:20,360 --> 00:43:22,759
Speaker 4: Then maybe we get to keep American.

808
00:43:24,880 --> 00:43:27,640
Speaker 6: Yeah, so it's organizing and its politics. I mean, the

809
00:43:27,680 --> 00:43:29,600
Speaker 6: law in the courts I don't think are the place

810
00:43:29,680 --> 00:43:31,080
Speaker 6: to locate your hopes right now.

811
00:43:31,280 --> 00:43:34,200
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's so funny because it's like we were told

812
00:43:34,400 --> 00:43:37,120
Speaker 1: Mahler would save us. I mean, I'd say this as

813
00:43:37,239 --> 00:43:39,840
Speaker 1: just a journalist and on the opinion side, no less.

814
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,120
Speaker 1: But we were told that the courts were going to

815
00:43:42,200 --> 00:43:44,040
Speaker 1: save us. We were told that Maler was going to

816
00:43:44,080 --> 00:43:46,040
Speaker 1: save us. We were told that this guy who's done

817
00:43:46,080 --> 00:43:48,600
Speaker 1: a million different crimes is going to be held responsible.

818
00:43:49,000 --> 00:43:51,880
Speaker 1: And in fact, it falls again to the voters. The

819
00:43:51,960 --> 00:43:54,560
Speaker 1: thing I found the most dispiriting, now that we're just

820
00:43:54,640 --> 00:43:58,600
Speaker 1: talking about my mental health here was, you know, very

821
00:43:58,719 --> 00:44:02,239
Speaker 1: rich people who who I know who are just just

822
00:44:02,320 --> 00:44:05,360
Speaker 1: want the tax cut, and they don't care about the

823
00:44:05,440 --> 00:44:08,040
Speaker 1: end of American democracy. And one of the things I'm

824
00:44:08,080 --> 00:44:11,640
Speaker 1: struck by is the trump Ism is not just about

825
00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:14,319
Speaker 1: cutting taxes for the wealthy. I mean, that's sort of

826
00:44:14,320 --> 00:44:17,040
Speaker 1: the more of the Mitt Romney school. This is really

827
00:44:17,080 --> 00:44:21,320
Speaker 1: about like radically changing the way America works.

828
00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:24,959
Speaker 6: It feels to me so shortsighted, even as a matter

829
00:44:25,000 --> 00:44:28,399
Speaker 6: of like personal, you know, financial interest for the very

830
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:31,279
Speaker 6: wealthy class, in that a lot of what the Trump

831
00:44:31,320 --> 00:44:34,480
Speaker 6: administration would a second Trump administration would entail the kind

832
00:44:34,480 --> 00:44:35,200
Speaker 6: of deregulation.

833
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:36,600
Speaker 2: And this ties back to the Supreme Court.

834
00:44:36,719 --> 00:44:40,360
Speaker 6: So these other major decisions, including the one that overruled Chevron,

835
00:44:40,440 --> 00:44:42,360
Speaker 6: but a handful of others that are a little bit

836
00:44:42,400 --> 00:44:46,080
Speaker 6: more under the radar, have I think ensured that if

837
00:44:46,080 --> 00:44:49,080
Speaker 6: a president comes into office who wants the federal government

838
00:44:49,160 --> 00:44:51,920
Speaker 6: to not only work to advance, you know, like the

839
00:44:51,960 --> 00:44:55,320
Speaker 6: fight against climate change, but essentially to give carte blanche

840
00:44:55,360 --> 00:44:59,400
Speaker 6: to industry to act as aggressively, you know, as they

841
00:44:59,440 --> 00:45:02,720
Speaker 6: want to maximize profits and you know, accelerate the destruction

842
00:45:02,840 --> 00:45:04,920
Speaker 6: of the planet, they'll be able to do that, right

843
00:45:04,960 --> 00:45:08,800
Speaker 6: and at a certain point, like a wildly unstable climate

844
00:45:09,320 --> 00:45:12,320
Speaker 6: isn't a favorable business environment.

845
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:14,280
Speaker 4: And so I mean, and maybe it's.

846
00:45:14,120 --> 00:45:17,680
Speaker 6: A time horizon issue, but I just think that climate

847
00:45:17,800 --> 00:45:21,600
Speaker 6: disaster is going to be wildly expensive, and of course

848
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:26,600
Speaker 6: it will fall in wildly disproportionate ways on the individuals

849
00:45:26,600 --> 00:45:29,760
Speaker 6: with the fewest resources, but it won't be good for anyone.

850
00:45:30,080 --> 00:45:32,560
Speaker 6: And so I actually do think that I'm not sure,

851
00:45:32,600 --> 00:45:33,880
Speaker 6: I'm not the person to make the case, but it

852
00:45:33,880 --> 00:45:36,400
Speaker 6: does feel to me like there are very strong cases

853
00:45:36,440 --> 00:45:39,680
Speaker 6: to be made that are like the business cases against authoritarianism.

854
00:45:39,920 --> 00:45:42,439
Speaker 6: I'm not sure if the individuals who are just thinking

855
00:45:42,480 --> 00:45:45,160
Speaker 6: about the very short term, you know, tax benefits that

856
00:45:45,160 --> 00:45:48,160
Speaker 6: a Trump administration might confer on them would be open

857
00:45:48,160 --> 00:45:48,360
Speaker 6: to that.

858
00:45:48,400 --> 00:45:50,400
Speaker 2: But if they think even like a half.

859
00:45:50,200 --> 00:45:54,399
Speaker 6: Generation or a generation out about kids and grandkids and like.

860
00:45:54,400 --> 00:45:56,080
Speaker 2: The imperative of a habitable planet.

861
00:45:56,120 --> 00:46:00,000
Speaker 6: Even if democracy as a concept feels abstracted, people like

862
00:46:00,080 --> 00:46:02,520
Speaker 6: if it's a people motivated by their kind of bottom

863
00:46:02,560 --> 00:46:06,080
Speaker 6: line and sort of pocketbook interest, like it feels as

864
00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:10,160
Speaker 6: though there too, just climate alone should be enough to

865
00:46:10,160 --> 00:46:12,160
Speaker 6: at least get people pause about what a second Trump

866
00:46:12,160 --> 00:46:13,160
Speaker 6: administration would mean.

867
00:46:13,520 --> 00:46:14,560
Speaker 4: It's so insane.

868
00:46:14,800 --> 00:46:18,799
Speaker 1: You know, we're in this really important window where you know,

869
00:46:18,840 --> 00:46:22,040
Speaker 1: we have about five years before we get into like

870
00:46:22,600 --> 00:46:25,840
Speaker 1: I mean, I think we're already probably past that, but

871
00:46:26,440 --> 00:46:30,480
Speaker 1: for climate, we're in a really delicate spot. I was

872
00:46:30,560 --> 00:46:34,040
Speaker 1: wondering if you could talk a little bit about what

873
00:46:34,520 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 1: sort of you're seeing right now. So the Supreme Court

874
00:46:36,880 --> 00:46:40,560
Speaker 1: is done with this insane semester, do you think you

875
00:46:40,600 --> 00:46:43,680
Speaker 1: could talk for a minute about what it would look like.

876
00:46:44,080 --> 00:46:47,480
Speaker 1: Just come with me to fantasy land. Democrats hold the Senate,

877
00:46:47,560 --> 00:46:50,080
Speaker 1: they win the House, and they win the presidency. We

878
00:46:50,200 --> 00:46:53,200
Speaker 1: have the Supreme Court that's radically remaking our country. What

879
00:46:53,239 --> 00:46:56,880
Speaker 1: would be the least disruptive way to get this Supreme

880
00:46:56,920 --> 00:47:00,040
Speaker 1: Court to look a little more like the country.

881
00:47:00,320 --> 00:47:02,320
Speaker 6: This is, I like residing in this kind of fantasy

882
00:47:02,400 --> 00:47:04,960
Speaker 6: landns me too. But I think you're right that, like,

883
00:47:05,000 --> 00:47:09,160
Speaker 6: you know, even if somehow the Democrats have an incredible election,

884
00:47:09,840 --> 00:47:13,200
Speaker 6: there is still this quite radical Supreme Court that, without

885
00:47:13,239 --> 00:47:16,759
Speaker 6: any kind of reform, stands in the way of meaningful

886
00:47:16,920 --> 00:47:20,280
Speaker 6: policy that the voters, you know, in this scenario would

887
00:47:20,280 --> 00:47:25,480
Speaker 6: have chosen, because any new legislation, certainly any new regulation

888
00:47:25,680 --> 00:47:29,839
Speaker 6: promulgated by an agency under a democratic administration, would run

889
00:47:29,880 --> 00:47:32,480
Speaker 6: into the buzzsaw of this Supreme Court that wants government

890
00:47:32,520 --> 00:47:34,680
Speaker 6: to do as little as possible at least, you know,

891
00:47:34,719 --> 00:47:37,439
Speaker 6: when it comes to matters involving like the general health

892
00:47:37,440 --> 00:47:40,480
Speaker 6: and welfare redistribution, you know, those sorts of things, like

893
00:47:40,520 --> 00:47:43,359
Speaker 6: they're they're fine with certain kinds of aggressive government action

894
00:47:43,480 --> 00:47:45,480
Speaker 6: like a big, you know, tax cut for example. I

895
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,560
Speaker 6: can't imagine them entertaining a serious challenge to But that's

896
00:47:48,680 --> 00:47:50,919
Speaker 6: legislation too. It's just they're very hostile to some kinds

897
00:47:50,960 --> 00:47:54,360
Speaker 6: of legislation. So I think one would be you just

898
00:47:54,600 --> 00:47:57,279
Speaker 6: add you know, some more seats to the Supreme Court,

899
00:47:57,280 --> 00:47:59,720
Speaker 6: and it's not I don't think you know, you add

900
00:48:00,000 --> 00:48:03,319
Speaker 6: you know, another add another five seats to the Supreme Court, right,

901
00:48:03,400 --> 00:48:05,680
Speaker 6: like actually increase the size to keep pace with the

902
00:48:05,719 --> 00:48:07,719
Speaker 6: size of the country and to keep pace with the

903
00:48:07,760 --> 00:48:10,480
Speaker 6: size of other supreme courts, and you know, kind of

904
00:48:10,760 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 6: relative terms, our Supreme Court is actually really small. So

905
00:48:14,040 --> 00:48:15,759
Speaker 6: you could do that, and you could do it, you know,

906
00:48:15,800 --> 00:48:18,880
Speaker 6: you'd have to get rid of the filibuster. I presume

907
00:48:18,920 --> 00:48:21,160
Speaker 6: I don't know if your scenario was like sixty Democratic senators.

908
00:48:21,320 --> 00:48:23,680
Speaker 4: It's fantasy land, so we can do whatever we want.

909
00:48:23,840 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 6: But assuming that the fantasy there is just like I

910
00:48:26,280 --> 00:48:27,880
Speaker 6: don't even know if the math is possible. It's like,

911
00:48:27,920 --> 00:48:30,520
Speaker 6: I guess it's possible, but say you're under sixty but

912
00:48:30,600 --> 00:48:32,600
Speaker 6: over fifty Democratic senators. Yeah, I mean, I think to

913
00:48:32,640 --> 00:48:35,040
Speaker 6: do anything, not just on the Supreme Court, but you know,

914
00:48:35,120 --> 00:48:40,760
Speaker 6: most things, you need to either totally jettison or really

915
00:48:40,800 --> 00:48:43,719
Speaker 6: restrict the availability of the filibuster. And then you could

916
00:48:43,760 --> 00:48:46,120
Speaker 6: just buy statute add some seats to the Supreme Court

917
00:48:46,280 --> 00:48:49,080
Speaker 6: and fill them with justices who are not going to

918
00:48:49,080 --> 00:48:54,279
Speaker 6: be this wildly hostile to anything a democratic administration might

919
00:48:54,360 --> 00:48:57,000
Speaker 6: want to do. And again I'm saying democratic administration because

920
00:48:57,000 --> 00:48:59,319
Speaker 6: I think that's also what's so hard. If you are

921
00:48:59,320 --> 00:49:01,680
Speaker 6: inclined to kind of look in good faith at these

922
00:49:01,800 --> 00:49:04,839
Speaker 6: justices in some ways, like the tension between the two

923
00:49:04,880 --> 00:49:08,359
Speaker 6: big cases that you mentioned and some of their very

924
00:49:08,400 --> 00:49:12,880
Speaker 6: different treatment of you know, say, arguments by the Republican

925
00:49:13,040 --> 00:49:17,239
Speaker 6: presidential front runner for immunity and arguments that the democratic

926
00:49:17,280 --> 00:49:20,320
Speaker 6: president and his agencies get to just like make policy.

927
00:49:20,560 --> 00:49:23,600
Speaker 6: They are just so deeply hostile to anything that the

928
00:49:23,600 --> 00:49:27,040
Speaker 6: Biden administration has done, whether we're talking about COVID policies,

929
00:49:27,080 --> 00:49:30,080
Speaker 6: whether we're talking about student loan forgiveness. You know, they

930
00:49:30,120 --> 00:49:35,360
Speaker 6: have struck down again and again relatively routine agency action

931
00:49:36,120 --> 00:49:39,080
Speaker 6: if the agency happens to be part of a democratic administration,

932
00:49:39,160 --> 00:49:42,360
Speaker 6: and they have just been wildly receptive to even the

933
00:49:42,400 --> 00:49:46,320
Speaker 6: most outlandish arguments offered by former President Trump, including obviously

934
00:49:46,360 --> 00:49:50,680
Speaker 6: in the immunity case, but also in the case regarding disqualification. Right,

935
00:49:50,680 --> 00:49:53,279
Speaker 6: that's earlier this term. So it's almost like feels like

936
00:49:53,320 --> 00:49:54,080
Speaker 6: AI history.

937
00:49:54,520 --> 00:49:57,439
Speaker 1: Can you talk about that where they quickly put him

938
00:49:57,560 --> 00:49:59,520
Speaker 1: right back on the ball after a few days.

939
00:49:59,520 --> 00:50:01,520
Speaker 4: Talk about that, because that's so interesting time.

940
00:50:01,680 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 6: That was a case where the State of Colorado tried

941
00:50:04,200 --> 00:50:06,959
Speaker 6: to invoke this provision of the Fourteenth Amendment that disqualifies

942
00:50:07,000 --> 00:50:09,800
Speaker 6: individuals who had been in public office and then engage

943
00:50:09,800 --> 00:50:13,759
Speaker 6: in insurrection from holding future public office. And you know,

944
00:50:13,800 --> 00:50:16,520
Speaker 6: this was an argument that had gained some traction in

945
00:50:16,680 --> 00:50:19,239
Speaker 6: academic work and you know, op ed pages and things

946
00:50:19,280 --> 00:50:22,319
Speaker 6: like that, and the voters of Colorado actually decided to

947
00:50:22,360 --> 00:50:24,960
Speaker 6: try to invoke this provision to keep Trump off the

948
00:50:25,000 --> 00:50:28,680
Speaker 6: Colorado primary ballot. And the Colorado courts actually took a

949
00:50:28,680 --> 00:50:31,399
Speaker 6: good look at the Constitution and assessed the events leading

950
00:50:31,480 --> 00:50:33,960
Speaker 6: up to and on January sixth, and said, yeah, what

951
00:50:34,040 --> 00:50:37,200
Speaker 6: the constitution is. This part of the Constitution is designed

952
00:50:37,239 --> 00:50:39,839
Speaker 6: to address exactly the scenario, which is someone who has

953
00:50:39,840 --> 00:50:41,960
Speaker 6: engaged in insurrection and is trying to come back to

954
00:50:42,000 --> 00:50:46,560
Speaker 6: public office and he is constitutionally Trump is constitutionally ineligible

955
00:50:46,600 --> 00:50:49,239
Speaker 6: to run for office. And so they kept him off

956
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,040
Speaker 6: the ballot, and the Supreme Court, in you know, lightning speed,

957
00:50:52,200 --> 00:50:55,239
Speaker 6: basically within a couple of weeks, took the case up

958
00:50:55,360 --> 00:50:58,920
Speaker 6: and ruled against what the Colorado Supreme Court had concluded

959
00:50:58,920 --> 00:51:01,080
Speaker 6: and held that Trump had to be back on the ballot.

960
00:51:01,360 --> 00:51:05,600
Speaker 6: And honestly, if you survey academics, law professors, people who

961
00:51:05,640 --> 00:51:08,640
Speaker 6: really do read and teach the Constitution for a living,

962
00:51:09,080 --> 00:51:11,239
Speaker 6: there's almost no one who will defend the substance of

963
00:51:11,280 --> 00:51:14,439
Speaker 6: the courtse analysis in that case, even if some people say, like, yeah,

964
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,440
Speaker 6: it was actually reasonable for the Court to say, it

965
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:19,840
Speaker 6: would be so destabilizing for each date to decide for

966
00:51:19,880 --> 00:51:21,600
Speaker 6: itself who is on the presidential about like, there is

967
00:51:21,640 --> 00:51:25,600
Speaker 6: a pragmatic reason that it was dangerous for Colorado to

968
00:51:25,600 --> 00:51:26,880
Speaker 6: do what it had done and to open the door

969
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:28,640
Speaker 6: to some states trying to keep Biden off and other

970
00:51:28,640 --> 00:51:31,400
Speaker 6: states trying to keep Trump off. But what's so galling,

971
00:51:31,440 --> 00:51:33,120
Speaker 6: and this is I think true about the Immunity case

972
00:51:33,200 --> 00:51:35,839
Speaker 6: and the Colorado case, is this is a Supreme Court

973
00:51:35,840 --> 00:51:38,480
Speaker 6: majority that has said to us again and again, courts

974
00:51:38,520 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 6: are not supposed to worry about consequences. Courts are not

975
00:51:41,200 --> 00:51:44,040
Speaker 6: supposed to worry about policy. Courts are supposed to read

976
00:51:44,080 --> 00:51:46,560
Speaker 6: the words of the Constitution. And that is their job.

977
00:51:46,640 --> 00:51:49,080
Speaker 6: That's the way they stay in their assigned institutional role.

978
00:51:49,440 --> 00:51:51,480
Speaker 6: So when it comes to questions about like the Second

979
00:51:51,480 --> 00:51:53,880
Speaker 6: Amendment and what it would mean for our country and

980
00:51:53,880 --> 00:51:56,600
Speaker 6: our children and schools and mass shootings, what it would

981
00:51:56,600 --> 00:51:58,920
Speaker 6: mean to read the Second Amendment in one way versus another,

982
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:02,160
Speaker 6: or what it would mean for people's liberty and equality

983
00:52:02,200 --> 00:52:04,960
Speaker 6: to read the Constitution to protect or not to protect

984
00:52:05,000 --> 00:52:07,560
Speaker 6: the ability to terminate a pregnancy. The Court in all

985
00:52:07,600 --> 00:52:09,839
Speaker 6: those kinds of cases has said, it's not to us

986
00:52:09,880 --> 00:52:12,040
Speaker 6: to think about consequences, like we read the words of

987
00:52:12,040 --> 00:52:12,680
Speaker 6: the Constitution.

988
00:52:12,800 --> 00:52:13,160
Speaker 2: That's it.

989
00:52:13,480 --> 00:52:15,480
Speaker 6: But of course, when it comes to these efforts by

990
00:52:15,680 --> 00:52:19,120
Speaker 6: former President Trump to get bailed out of these, you know,

991
00:52:19,280 --> 00:52:22,480
Speaker 6: either of this disqualification in Colorado or this criminal prosecution

992
00:52:22,640 --> 00:52:25,520
Speaker 6: in DC, all of a sudden, the court is perfectly

993
00:52:25,560 --> 00:52:28,640
Speaker 6: willing to consider the consequences of adopting one reading of

994
00:52:28,680 --> 00:52:29,960
Speaker 6: the Constitution versus another.

995
00:52:30,000 --> 00:52:32,240
Speaker 2: And it is the inconsistency that I find so calling.

996
00:52:32,719 --> 00:52:34,120
Speaker 4: Yeah, and they're hypocrites.

997
00:52:34,200 --> 00:52:38,239
Speaker 1: Thank you, Thank you, Kate Shaw, so interesting, really appreciate you.

998
00:52:38,640 --> 00:52:39,799
Speaker 2: Thank you so much for having me.

999
00:52:42,480 --> 00:52:49,960
Speaker 4: No moment secret. Jesse Cannon, my Jong Fast.

1000
00:52:49,960 --> 00:52:52,480
Speaker 3: I know I've told the story on here before of

1001
00:52:52,560 --> 00:52:55,719
Speaker 3: how long I've known Bob Benandez was corrupt, but it's

1002
00:52:55,800 --> 00:52:57,719
Speaker 3: nice to see the law is finally caught up to

1003
00:52:57,760 --> 00:52:59,560
Speaker 3: something I've known for almost two decades.

1004
00:53:00,080 --> 00:53:02,879
Speaker 1: And we don't want to be partisan here, though we are,

1005
00:53:04,280 --> 00:53:07,080
Speaker 1: but we do want to say corruption is bad.

1006
00:53:07,160 --> 00:53:08,800
Speaker 4: If you're on the left or the right.

1007
00:53:09,080 --> 00:53:14,200
Speaker 1: Gold bars should be in safes and not in the

1008
00:53:14,239 --> 00:53:18,080
Speaker 1: trunk of your car. Menande should resign, but then again,

1009
00:53:18,360 --> 00:53:19,680
Speaker 1: so should Donald Trump.

1010
00:53:19,920 --> 00:53:22,200
Speaker 4: And that is our moment of fuck array.

1011
00:53:23,280 --> 00:53:26,640
Speaker 1: That's it for this episode of Fast Politics. Tune in

1012
00:53:26,680 --> 00:53:29,920
Speaker 1: every Monday, Wednesday, and Friday to hear the best minds

1013
00:53:29,920 --> 00:53:33,160
Speaker 1: in politics makes sense of all this chaos. If you

1014
00:53:33,280 --> 00:53:35,960
Speaker 1: enjoyed what you've heard, please send it to a friend

1015
00:53:36,000 --> 00:53:39,560
Speaker 1: and keep the conversation going. And again, thanks for listening.