Speaker 1: That's what letting go is. It's realizing that you can't
Speaker 1: move forward when you're holding the tale of the past.
Speaker 1: You know, I mean, you're not going to go anywhere.
Speaker 1: Welcome to the one you feed Throughout time, great thinkers
Speaker 1: have recognized the importance of the thoughts we have, quotes
Speaker 1: like garbage in, garbage out, or you are what you
Speaker 1: think ring true, and yet for many of us, our
Speaker 1: thoughts don't strengthen or empower us. We tend toward negativity,
Speaker 1: self pity, jealousy, or fear. We see what we don't
Speaker 1: have instead of what we do. We think things that
Speaker 1: hold us back and dampen our spirit. But it's not
Speaker 1: just about thinking. Our actions matter. It takes conscious, consistent,
Speaker 1: and creative effort to make a life worth living. This
Speaker 1: podcast is about how other people keep themselves moving in
Speaker 1: the right direction, how they feed their good wolf m
Speaker 1: Thanks for joining us. Our guest on this episode is
Speaker 1: Megan Feldman Bettencourt, an award winning writer and journalist. Megan
Speaker 1: has reported from many countries, and her journalism has appeared
Speaker 1: in publications including The San Francisco Chronicle, Psychology Today, Salon, Glamor, Newsday,
Speaker 1: and many others. Megan is the author of the internationally
Speaker 1: acclaimed book Triumph of the Heart Forgiveness in an Unforgiving World,
Speaker 1: which explores forgiveness through science, stories and memoir. She holds
Speaker 1: a master's degree from the Columbia University Graduate School of
Speaker 1: Journalism in New York City. And here's the interview with
Speaker 1: Megan Feldman Bettencourt. Hi, Megan, welcome to the show. Thank you,
Speaker 1: it's good to be here. I am excited to have
Speaker 1: you on. Your book is called Triumph of the Heart
Speaker 1: Forgiveness in an Unforgiving World, and you have in it
Speaker 1: one of my favorite quotes of all time, which is
Speaker 1: I will get an exact but Nelson Mandela talking about
Speaker 1: how hating other people are resenting other people is like
Speaker 1: drinking poison and expecting your enemy to die. And that
Speaker 1: phrase has been incredibly helpful to me in my life
Speaker 1: once I truly understood it as a as a true fact. Yes,
Speaker 1: it's it's a powerful quote and message. Absolutely So we
Speaker 1: will get much deeper into all that here in a minute.
Speaker 1: But let's start like we always do, with the parable.
Speaker 1: There's a grandfather who's talking with his grandson. He says,
Speaker 1: in life, there are two wolves inside of us that
Speaker 1: are always at battle. One is a good wolf, which
Speaker 1: represents things like kindness and bravery and love, and the
Speaker 1: other is a bad wolf, which represents things like greed
Speaker 1: and hatred and fear. And the grandson stops and he
Speaker 1: thinks about it for a second, and he looks up
Speaker 1: at his grandfather and he says, well, grandfather, which one wins?
Speaker 1: And the grandfather says, the one you feed. So I'd
Speaker 1: like to start off by asking you what that parable
Speaker 1: means to you in your life, in the work that
Speaker 1: you do, and maybe anyways that you feed the good
Speaker 1: wolf in your own life. Sure. So, I have always
Speaker 1: been really interested in how people cultivate fulfilling lives, maybe
Speaker 1: in spite of very difficult circumstances. I was raised as
Speaker 1: the daughter of a psychologist and grew up hearing a
Speaker 1: lot of stories about difficult childhoods and difficult experiences, and
Speaker 1: so I was always interested in how people, you know,
Speaker 1: became happy and love their lives in spite of the
Speaker 1: difficult parts. And more and more in recent years, as
Speaker 1: we've looked at the research that's come out about positivity
Speaker 1: and about different practices and ways to change the brain
Speaker 1: and maintain feelings of fulfillment. For example, the more we've
Speaker 1: learned about the truth, the real, powerful and extreme truth
Speaker 1: of that parable about the worlds and that you know,
Speaker 1: it really is the way we think and the way
Speaker 1: we act that determines which wolf controls us. And I
Speaker 1: would say that that really is a perfect set up
Speaker 1: from my book, because when you talk about forgiveness and
Speaker 1: you think about you know, forgiving versus really living and
Speaker 1: blame and resentment and anger and hatred which is the
Speaker 1: word that parable uses, hatred, you really are looking at
Speaker 1: the two wolves and the way we feed those are
Speaker 1: either going to be indulging our hatred, indulging our blame
Speaker 1: and resentment and anger, or learning how to let go
Speaker 1: of those or channel them productively in order to feed
Speaker 1: that other wolf that's all about love and no peace
Speaker 1: and fulfillment and happiness and joy. Yeah, and I think
Speaker 1: that you know, the thing that prompted you to write
Speaker 1: the book, the story about a Zem is probably as
Speaker 1: clear a you know, telling of the wolves parable as
Speaker 1: as there could be. Right, I mean, he made a
Speaker 1: very clear choice. Do you want to tell listeners the
Speaker 1: story that got you interested in exploring forgiveness? Yes. So
Speaker 1: a few years ago I did a magazine story about
Speaker 1: a man named Azeem Kamisa, and Azem experienced to a
Speaker 1: most of us fear, most those of us who are parents,
Speaker 1: which is that his only son, Tari, was murdered by
Speaker 1: a group of teenage gang members, and one in particular,
Speaker 1: who was fourteen at the time. They had planned to
Speaker 1: rob him. He was a pizza delivery guy on the
Speaker 1: side of finishing his college degree, and he was delivering
Speaker 1: a pizza and these teens approached him and tried to
Speaker 1: rob him of the pizza and ended up shooting and
Speaker 1: killing him. And a Ziem talks about how when he
Speaker 1: got the phone call to notify him about his son's death,
Speaker 1: he passed out a cold on his kitchen floor, and
Speaker 1: when he came to, there was this mysterious phrase in
Speaker 1: his mind that he attributes to God, and that phrases
Speaker 1: there were victims on both ends of the gun, and
Speaker 1: he ended up forgiving this young man who killed his son,
Speaker 1: And not only that, he ended up forgiving and becoming
Speaker 1: friends with the young man's family and in particular the
Speaker 1: young man's grandfather, with whom he formed this extraordinary organization
Speaker 1: that does violence prevention work and education at risk schools
Speaker 1: around the country. Yeah, that's an amazing story because the
Speaker 1: normal reaction and the reaction that nobody could really even
Speaker 1: be blamed for, would be one of a great deal
Speaker 1: of hatred towards the people that did that to his son.
Speaker 1: But he chose forgiveness. Now, I think maybe we could
Speaker 1: go into what forgiveness is and what it isn't because
Speaker 1: I think that hearing something like what he did sounds
Speaker 1: almost like dealing with a saint, and um, you know,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's exactly what it is. So can
Speaker 1: you tell us what your definition of forgiveness is? Yes,
Speaker 1: my definition, the best most accessible definition that I found
Speaker 1: in a year and a half of research, is a
Speaker 1: very simple Marion Webster's definition, which is giving up resentment
Speaker 1: and giving up resentment. It doesn't rule out being angry
Speaker 1: like a lot of us would think it does, you know,
Speaker 1: Like you say, what do we hear that he forgave
Speaker 1: that person? We think, wow, you know, how could he
Speaker 1: possibly do that? Does that mean that he wasn't angry
Speaker 1: or upset? And in fact, it doesn't mean that Asim
Speaker 1: was absolutely angry. He was depressed and he went through
Speaker 1: you know, those phases or experiences and emotions that anyone
Speaker 1: would go through after such a horrific tragedy, including at
Speaker 1: one point being suicidal. However, he says he knew on
Speaker 1: a visceral level that if he didn't somehow find a
Speaker 1: way to forgive, and he didn't use the word to
Speaker 1: give up resentment, but in our conversations and in my
Speaker 1: time with him, it became clear that that's what that's
Speaker 1: what he was talking about. He knew that if he
Speaker 1: didn't give up resentment, he could never have the quality
Speaker 1: of life that he wanted. He said, he knew he
Speaker 1: would always be a victim of his blame and anger.
Speaker 1: And so what's interesting to me is that forgiving didn't
Speaker 1: mean that he wasn't angry. It meant that he channeled
Speaker 1: that anger in a productive way. So that meant for
Speaker 1: him being very upset about the state of gun violence
Speaker 1: in the United States and doing something about it. And
Speaker 1: so he every day he channels that anger and grief
Speaker 1: over what happened, because he'll never get over it, but
Speaker 1: every day he channels it into this effort to prevent
Speaker 1: any other child from dying the way his did, or
Speaker 1: from going to prison. The way Tony did. And I
Speaker 1: think a lot of people assume that, like you said,
Speaker 1: that forgiven means you don't get angry. People think forgiveness
Speaker 1: is like letting somebody completely off the hook, and that's
Speaker 1: not what you're talking about here. It's not it's really
Speaker 1: it's not enabling someone to avoid accountability. And that's really important.
Speaker 1: You know, some people, especially if you're talking about something
Speaker 1: like sexual assault, might think if I forgive, that means
Speaker 1: I can't pursue charges or I can't press charges or
Speaker 1: even follow lawsuit. And that's absolutely not true. And you
Speaker 1: can have forgiveness with justice. They are not mutually exclusive, right,
Speaker 1: And you're not talking about the need for forgiveness or
Speaker 1: the importance of forgiveness. You're not coming at this from
Speaker 1: a moral perspective. You're not coming at it from that's
Speaker 1: what God wants you to do, or that's what whatever
Speaker 1: wants you to do. You're coming at it really from
Speaker 1: if we go back to that that Nelson Mandela quote,
Speaker 1: you're coming at it from the fact that when we
Speaker 1: really hate someone or every resentment for someone for a long,
Speaker 1: long period of time, we suffer greatly for that. And
Speaker 1: so what did you learn about why we would want
Speaker 1: to forgive, what are the benefits, because we're really doing
Speaker 1: it for ourselves, right, Yes, And and that's really where
Speaker 1: I started, because I have to say I have never
Speaker 1: really been a naturally forgiving person. I'm much more likely
Speaker 1: to hold a grudge. I'm quick to anger, That's my
Speaker 1: natural temperament. And so when I when I did the story,
Speaker 1: I found myself really confounded and and very kind of
Speaker 1: intrigued and troubled at the same time, because I've always
Speaker 1: kind of enjoyed, you know, feeling righteous anger, for example,
Speaker 1: and so I wanted to know That's what I wanted
Speaker 1: to know. I wanted to know, is there a real
Speaker 1: benefit to this, and if so, what is it? And
Speaker 1: as I began to look into it, I found that,
Speaker 1: not surprisingly most of us know, there's a large body
Speaker 1: of research about the detriment of anger and resentment over
Speaker 1: time on our bodies. Right, It's similar to stress, but
Speaker 1: anger specifically puts us more at risk for heart attack,
Speaker 1: high high blood pressure excuse me, and also anxiety and depression.
Speaker 1: Whereas what I didn't know and what I found was
Speaker 1: there's this this body of research from the last twenty
Speaker 1: years where studies specifically on forgiveness show how it can
Speaker 1: alleviate symptoms like depression, anxiety, heart issues as well. Cardiac
Speaker 1: patients actually were found in different studies to be less
Speaker 1: at risk to have a massive fatal heart attack if
Speaker 1: they were forgiving as opposed to if they held a grudge.
Speaker 1: Right not to mention, just much better day to day
Speaker 1: sanity and quality of life. Yes, because stress really you know,
Speaker 1: when you when you think about anger, the anger response,
Speaker 1: it really is the stress response, which means adrenaline, cortisol, nora,
Speaker 1: and ephron, all those stress hormones flooding your brain, and
Speaker 1: over time they not only tend to make you depressed,
Speaker 1: but they inhibit your ability to problem solved and think creatively,
Speaker 1: which really, if you think about it, gets in the
Speaker 1: way of so many parts of life. As we head
Speaker 1: into the new year, a lot of people are thinking
Speaker 1: about New Year's resolutions or trying to get the year
Speaker 1: off to a good start. We've got a couple of
Speaker 1: spots open in the coaching program right now, so if
Speaker 1: you're interested in getting some help and a little extra
Speaker 1: boost in getting the year off to a great start,
Speaker 1: go to one you feed dot net slash coaching and
Speaker 1: you can find the details there and book a fifteen
Speaker 1: minute introductory call with me where we can talk more
Speaker 1: about it and see if it might be a good fit.
Speaker 1: And now back to the interview with Megan Oldman Buttoncourt.
Speaker 1: As listeners of the show, no, I'm recovering alcoholic and
Speaker 1: addict and so very you know, very early in my
Speaker 1: life I got I got cleaned the first time. When
Speaker 1: I was very young, I was exposed to the idea
Speaker 1: that um resentment is really bad. In the UH some
Speaker 1: of the twelve step literature, they refer to it as
Speaker 1: the number one offender, being the number one reason that
Speaker 1: people go back out drinking. And I think that's why
Speaker 1: it For me, I really somehow internalized that truth that
Speaker 1: I was the one that was suffering. And once, I
Speaker 1: think at least for me, once I really internalized it,
Speaker 1: it wasn't really so much a question of should I
Speaker 1: do this or not? It was how do I do it?
Speaker 1: And so, what did you learn about how people can
Speaker 1: go about forgiving? Because that sounds lovely, right, But when
Speaker 1: you are in the grips of that that anger, or
Speaker 1: that pain or all that stuff, it's it's not enough
Speaker 1: to just go well, I forgive, and you know, it's
Speaker 1: like positive thinking. You just can't turn on your happy
Speaker 1: face and everything is fine exactly. So what are places
Speaker 1: that people can start and what does the process look like? Right? Well,
Speaker 1: when it comes to when it comes to pretty pretty
Speaker 1: severe offenses, um like the one a Zem experienced losing
Speaker 1: his son, that's that's a really really huge experience obviously,
Speaker 1: so something like that really requires grieving. And one one
Speaker 1: thing that was surprising to me is that I found
Speaker 1: that the people who I interviewed and spent time with
Speaker 1: who seemed to be really good at forgiving, tended to
Speaker 1: be good at grieving. And even when you're when we're
Speaker 1: talking about less severe offenses, maybe not grieving is the word,
Speaker 1: but being authentic and allowing themselves to feel their feelings.
Speaker 1: You know, there's this kind of silly expression that I
Speaker 1: think it holds true. What you resists persists. It's one
Speaker 1: of my favorite phrases. It's great. I mean, it's it
Speaker 1: sounds kind of flip, but it really is true. And
Speaker 1: so you know, a Zeem grieved after he lost his son,
Speaker 1: really allowed he gave himself. He gave himself that you know,
Speaker 1: he allowed himself to feel it, and and he talks
Speaker 1: about the roommate quote about the only cure for the
Speaker 1: pain is the pain. That's another great and that's really
Speaker 1: true and there's no way around it. And the people
Speaker 1: I spoke to in Rwanda who had experienced genocide you
Speaker 1: to different degrees, talked about that too, that they went
Speaker 1: through however long they needed to go of you know,
Speaker 1: being angry or feeling hurt or not speaking to someone um.
Speaker 1: But so just allowing yourself to feel whatever it is
Speaker 1: gives it such less grip on you. So that's one thing,
Speaker 1: And another is developing, if not empathy, at least some
Speaker 1: level of understanding for whoever you know, committed an offense
Speaker 1: against you that you might be trying to forgive, because
Speaker 1: in some cases it might be easy to to empathize
Speaker 1: with someone, you know. I interviewed people in my chapter
Speaker 1: about forgiving parents, about forgiving a whole range of things
Speaker 1: when it came to childhood and our parents, and you know,
Speaker 1: some people were able to develop that sense of understanding
Speaker 1: and empathy pretty easily by saying so. One example is
Speaker 1: ones this woman's mother was mentally ill, and she didn't
Speaker 1: know exactly what her mother had it turns out she
Speaker 1: was BIPOLARUM at a time when that that disorder had
Speaker 1: not been discovered or defined, much less treated. But this woman,
Speaker 1: she knew that her mother was not capable of the
Speaker 1: sort of parenting that other parents were, and so she
Speaker 1: was able to empathize on some level with her mom
Speaker 1: and other people, like, for example, a young man whose
Speaker 1: father had left him or who kind of appeared off
Speaker 1: and on throughout his life mostly to disappoint him. Again,
Speaker 1: he didn't necessarily have that empathy. You know, his father
Speaker 1: was not ill, but over time he was able to
Speaker 1: build this level of kind of understanding um with his father,
Speaker 1: and he did end up having a conversation with him
Speaker 1: and learning that his father actually was afraid that he
Speaker 1: would be like him, and that's one reason he stayed away.
Speaker 1: So anyway we can develop some understanding for why someone
Speaker 1: behaved the way they did, it makes it a lot
Speaker 1: easier to forgive. Yeah, a few things come up for
Speaker 1: me when you say that. One is, we had a
Speaker 1: guy on the show a while ago, Carrie Patterson. He
Speaker 1: wrote a book called Crucial Conversations, which is really great,
Speaker 1: But they've got a line in there which is to
Speaker 1: kind of ask yourself like why would somebody behave like this?
Speaker 1: What would cause somebody to behave like this? Because it
Speaker 1: gets you in the thinking about what that might be like. Actually,
Speaker 1: in the book you refer to it that that the
Speaker 1: very process by trying to think about why some you
Speaker 1: might have done what they do engages the part of
Speaker 1: the brain that is the part of the brain that
Speaker 1: is more able to become forgiving, and it takes less
Speaker 1: energy away from that more reptilian part of the brain.
Speaker 1: And and then the last thing would be I've got
Speaker 1: a great approach for forgiveness, which is or develop an empathy,
Speaker 1: which is if you screw up as often as I
Speaker 1: have in my life, it becomes very easy too to
Speaker 1: emphasize with others with the challenges they have. Well, I
Speaker 1: would say, the more aware you are, and then for
Speaker 1: ownership you take of that, because I promise you there
Speaker 1: are a lot of people who have made a lot
Speaker 1: of mistakes that they don't recognize it, and it's easier
Speaker 1: to blame other people. And obviously you have made a
Speaker 1: practice out of really being aware of how you relate
Speaker 1: to other people and what actions you take, and when
Speaker 1: you've made mistakes, you have a practice of owning up
Speaker 1: to them. And so what's interesting and I think really
Speaker 1: important about what you just said is that the more
Speaker 1: we can be responsible and accountable for our mistakes without
Speaker 1: beating ourselves up and hating ourselves and indulging in self loathing,
Speaker 1: the more we can be accountable and also and also
Speaker 1: compassionate with ourselves, the more compassionate we can be with
Speaker 1: other people because we realize that, as Pemma Children says,
Speaker 1: they're up against what we're up against exactly. One of
Speaker 1: the things in the book that you talk about, and
Speaker 1: it's related to empathy, and you say that one of
Speaker 1: the ways to you know, to work towards forgiveness is
Speaker 1: to recognize maybe that it's not as personal as you
Speaker 1: think it is, and to realize that other people have
Speaker 1: suffered the same thing as well. It reminds me of
Speaker 1: there's an old Buddhist story where a woman comes to
Speaker 1: the Buddha and she's just out of her mind with
Speaker 1: grief because her son died, and she's like, what can
Speaker 1: you do? Can you bring him back? And the Buddha says,
Speaker 1: all right, here's what I want you to do. I
Speaker 1: want you to go find me, bring me a mustard
Speaker 1: seed from a house where no one has suffered. And
Speaker 1: so the woman goes door to door to door looking
Speaker 1: for this and you know, over and over what she finds,
Speaker 1: of course, is that everybody has had these awful things
Speaker 1: happened to her. And so obviously her son is not
Speaker 1: brought back. But what happens is she realizes she's not
Speaker 1: so alone in it. That's right, And I love that story.
Speaker 1: I love that story because it's so true. And I
Speaker 1: think for all of us, know, whether it's something is
Speaker 1: extreme as losing a child or experiencing a war, or
Speaker 1: something more every day, like you know, being fired from
Speaker 1: our job or you know, losing a relationship or being
Speaker 1: broken up with getting divorced. It's so easy to think
Speaker 1: or to feel like you're alone in that experience, when
Speaker 1: in fact it's the opposite, right, like that story shows.
Speaker 1: And and that's actually part of Dr Robert en Right's
Speaker 1: process in his clinical practice helping people forgive. And Dr
Speaker 1: en Right is one of the kind of founding fathers
Speaker 1: of forgiveness research, and he he talks about that about
Speaker 1: imagining how many other people have experienced that, and in
Speaker 1: a lot of cases actually connecting with those people and
Speaker 1: that's why for for people who have gone through specific things,
Speaker 1: it's really helpful to connect with other people who have
Speaker 1: experienced that same thing. It definitely is. I mean, I
Speaker 1: think you know, you reference twelve step programs in the
Speaker 1: book a couple of times, and you know the the
Speaker 1: efficacy of them, and you know, there's a lot of
Speaker 1: debate out there, and you know, I think some of
Speaker 1: the reasons that those programs work are not the reasons
Speaker 1: that they themselves think they work. But one of the
Speaker 1: big things that I think is important in those is
Speaker 1: that you recognize that you're not alone. Yes, you hear
Speaker 1: other people say the things that have gone in your
Speaker 1: head and you went, oh wait, I'm like that, and
Speaker 1: that that is such a you know, when you're really struggling,
Speaker 1: that is such it doesn't matter what the struggle is,
Speaker 1: that is so comforting it is. And I think there's
Speaker 1: I think it's also helpful when you're developing or aiming
Speaker 1: to develop a level of self compassion, because speaking with
Speaker 1: people and spending time with people who have gone through
Speaker 1: what we've gone through, it helps us not to deal alone.
Speaker 1: And it also helps us to realize that, you know,
Speaker 1: if they've gone through that, and they're not terrible people
Speaker 1: and they didn't do something that made them deserve that
Speaker 1: horrible thing. You know, then we probably didn't either. And
Speaker 1: you know, one important part of forgiveness comes down to
Speaker 1: forgiving ourselves, and I think that's lost and a lot
Speaker 1: of conversations about forgiven right now, you say that in
Speaker 1: order to be able to forgive, there are some conditions
Speaker 1: that are usually favorable that make it easier to forgive.
Speaker 1: What what are the things that are important to sort
Speaker 1: of be there to help us with that process. Sure, well,
Speaker 1: we know that getting an apology or some sort of
Speaker 1: accountability statement along with remorse from the offender does make
Speaker 1: it easier. The tricky thing about that is that if
Speaker 1: you make your forgiveness contingent upon an apology and authentic
Speaker 1: one with remorse, then you're really giving that person even
Speaker 1: more power over you, and you're handing over the reins
Speaker 1: of your well being, which you know, which is not
Speaker 1: a good thing. Um So, I think it's important to
Speaker 1: know that that does make it easier. But it's also
Speaker 1: important to know that you don't have to have an
Speaker 1: apology in order to forgive that you can you can
Speaker 1: do that on your own. And that you may not
Speaker 1: reconcile with someone. This kind of goes back to what
Speaker 1: you asked about in terms of what forgiveness is not.
Speaker 1: But it's not necessarily reconciling, and so I think that
Speaker 1: makes it more accessible that you know there may be
Speaker 1: grounds to reconcile. For example, that person has apologized or
Speaker 1: taken accountability. The person is safe, you know, and has
Speaker 1: provided assurance and maybe evidence that they won't hurt you again,
Speaker 1: and so on. Um. But but keeping in mind that
Speaker 1: those two things are different, forgiveness and reconciliation, right, they
Speaker 1: don't necessarily go together. And I think so you were
Speaker 1: saying that one is ideally if somebody expresses remorse or
Speaker 1: apologize as that helps. And then the other that you
Speaker 1: touched on was sort of the safety thing. It's hard
Speaker 1: to forgive if you're sort of still in danger of
Speaker 1: the same thing happening to you again. Right, So in
Speaker 1: this you know, one thing that comes up a lot
Speaker 1: on this conversation is often dangerous relationships or abusive relationships,
Speaker 1: you know, when really, I mean, the first thing to
Speaker 1: do is make sure that you're safe and protected, and
Speaker 1: then you can work on forgiving and maybe maybe one
Speaker 1: day you reconcile, maybe you don't, but absolutely safety is
Speaker 1: very important. I don't know if I'll call it false forgiveness,
Speaker 1: but that forgiveness that happens in abusive relationships is not
Speaker 1: what we're talking about here. No, and and and I
Speaker 1: think I don't even know if I would call that forgiveness.
Speaker 1: I think I would call that a lack of self
Speaker 1: advocacy and a lack of boundaries. You know. Um, there
Speaker 1: was an interesting study that I read about in the
Speaker 1: book where this this researcher looked at a number of
Speaker 1: marriages and it was I think the first two to
Speaker 1: three years a certain number of marriages, and he found
Speaker 1: that in the couples where one person was often transgressing
Speaker 1: against the other and that could be with sarcasm, you know,
Speaker 1: or insults, snapping at them, etcetera, and the other person
Speaker 1: was kind of constantly or routinely forgiving that the effect
Speaker 1: was that they got more of that negative behavior. And
Speaker 1: so that really tells us that is keeping yourself, That
Speaker 1: is not advocating for yourself. That is, you know, failing
Speaker 1: to lay down the boundary and say just doesn't work. Yep,
Speaker 1: there's some old phrase I can't remember that goes along
Speaker 1: with that, which is something like you get what you allow,
Speaker 1: or it's something to that that degree. And I certainly
Speaker 1: have been that position of like trying to be the
Speaker 1: ultra forgiving just it's all fine, it's all fine, until
Speaker 1: I basically set up a situation in which that the
Speaker 1: expected behavior was that the other person would be unkind
Speaker 1: and I would forgive it. And boy, once you're in
Speaker 1: that pattern, it's so hard to undo it. It is
Speaker 1: it is and and and what's interesting is that I
Speaker 1: think I don't think I'm alone in this. When I
Speaker 1: was reporting the book and writing it, I really had
Speaker 1: to confront that. In my relationships, particularly in my romantic relationships,
Speaker 1: for a long time, I had vacillated between those two extremes,
Speaker 1: between acting as this kind of doormat and setting up
Speaker 1: that dynamic that you describe, where you know, I'm just saying, oh,
Speaker 1: that's fine that you insulted me, or that's fine that
Speaker 1: you got drunk and humiliated both of us, or whatever
Speaker 1: it was, and then vacillating to the other extreme of
Speaker 1: overreacting in certain different situations. So I had to really
Speaker 1: look at that, and um, you know, and and in
Speaker 1: my marriage. Now I find myself much more willing to
Speaker 1: rock the boat by laying down a boundary and calling
Speaker 1: out something that doesn't work for me. But I'm I'm
Speaker 1: also less likely to overreact, So I think I've found
Speaker 1: some more balance in between those two extremes. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about adrenaline management. I love that term. Yeah, it's a
Speaker 1: great term, and I actually I quoted Dr Fred Leskin
Speaker 1: of the Stanford Forgiveness Projects talking about adrenaline management, and
Speaker 1: I think it's so brilliant because that's really what this is.
Speaker 1: If you think about it's happening in the brain when
Speaker 1: we when we react in anger, and every time we
Speaker 1: even think of a grudge, even if we don't do
Speaker 1: anything about it, even just thinking about a grudge, we
Speaker 1: experienced that stress response with the flood of adrenaline in
Speaker 1: our brains and throughout our bodies. And the parts of
Speaker 1: the brain that are activated are those primitive parts that
Speaker 1: some people call the reptilian parts of the brain, right
Speaker 1: the amygdala, which is the fight or flight part. And
Speaker 1: the more we can actually interrupt that by observing it,
Speaker 1: like merely just observing it actually disrupts that that stress
Speaker 1: cascade reaction and activates the frontal lobe, which is responsible
Speaker 1: for reason, problem solving, adpatizing with other people, um, you know,
Speaker 1: forgiveability judgments, which is thinking about whether or not someone
Speaker 1: merits forgiveness, all of those things. So observing our reaction
Speaker 1: is the first step to interrupting that. And then you know,
Speaker 1: doing some deep breathing is another one that can really
Speaker 1: just stop that reaction in its tracks and increase oxygen,
Speaker 1: you know, introduce the relaxation and enable enable us to
Speaker 1: really think and really be rational. Yeah. You say in
Speaker 1: the book that what happens when we get into that
Speaker 1: adrenalized state is you go into the no thinking zone.
Speaker 1: And I've become so cognizant of that in my life
Speaker 1: because I realize it once you're into that place, there's
Speaker 1: nothing good that can happen. And never I mean this,
Speaker 1: I won't say never, but very very rarely until one
Speaker 1: person can step out of that. And I think it's interesting.
Speaker 1: I've noticed in my own relationships with people and in
Speaker 1: watching people around me, it's interesting how quick sometimes we
Speaker 1: get there. And and so it's it's almost like the
Speaker 1: conversation starts and it's a you know, have to have
Speaker 1: to take take a step almost immediately, but that that
Speaker 1: pushing through just is so destructive, at least it has
Speaker 1: been in my life. Yes, And I think the more
Speaker 1: observant we become, the more we were tipped off earlier
Speaker 1: to that reaction, because I think everyone probably experiences it differently.
Speaker 1: I feel like it's it's almost like a head rush.
Speaker 1: It's like a buzzing in my head, and so I
Speaker 1: know that as soon as that, as soon as that's happening,
Speaker 1: I need to stop talking or doing what I'm doing,
Speaker 1: exactly and and just politely excuse ourselves. Yes, exactly. So
Speaker 1: you talk about something called repair moves in a relationship,
Speaker 1: What does that mean? Yes? So, the authorities on conflict
Speaker 1: and in longevity, happy longevity in relationships, specifically romantic relationships
Speaker 1: talk a lot about this term conflict intimacy, and basically
Speaker 1: that's how you fight, how you deal with disagreements, because
Speaker 1: that's really the one most powerful determining factor of whether
Speaker 1: relationships do continue and continue happily, is if you can
Speaker 1: really deal it with conflict in a positive way and
Speaker 1: in a productive way, so not avoiding it, but you know,
Speaker 1: allowing for the conflict and engaging with it in a
Speaker 1: rational way and and repair moves. Basically, our statements that
Speaker 1: show that you're listening, statements that show that you're working
Speaker 1: towards some sort of resolution. You know. So it could
Speaker 1: be as simple as I hear you, or I get that,
Speaker 1: or could you explain that more? You know, I didn't,
Speaker 1: I don't quite understand. Like, just so it's moving towards
Speaker 1: connection and understanding and resolution as opposed to shutting someone out,
Speaker 1: being defensive, et cetera. Yep, what did you call it?
Speaker 1: Conflict intimacy? We touched on one of them early, or
Speaker 1: that there are a lot of different approaches to forgiveness,
Speaker 1: but that it appeared that all of it boiled down
Speaker 1: to two key components. One was you talked earlier about
Speaker 1: the ability to grieve it, to feel it, and the
Speaker 1: other was letting go. What does that process look like
Speaker 1: or what do you what do you mean by that
Speaker 1: letting go? Yeah, so someone said that forgiveness in the
Speaker 1: end is about giving up your attachment to a different past.
Speaker 1: I'm not sure of the exact words, but it was
Speaker 1: something like that. So giving up the right to a
Speaker 1: different past, because of course the past is what it is, right,
Speaker 1: and we can't we can't change it, and so at
Speaker 1: a certain point in forgiveness, and in order to forgive,
Speaker 1: you really have to relinquish that attachment to judging the
Speaker 1: past and trying to change it, because you basically value
Speaker 1: your well being and your future over that past. And
Speaker 1: I mean, I think that's what letting go is. It's
Speaker 1: realizing that you can't you can't move forward when you're
Speaker 1: holding the tale of the past, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: you're not gonna You're not gonna go anywhere. Reminds me
Speaker 1: of a phrase that sort of applies to this, which
Speaker 1: is would you rather be right or would you rather
Speaker 1: be happy? Yes, that's that is exactly it. That's exactly right.
Speaker 1: And and it's easy to say that right, that's so
Speaker 1: easy to actually get there and do it. But I
Speaker 1: think you know, one thing that the people in my
Speaker 1: book share, They share a lot of things, but one
Speaker 1: thing along these lines is that they were committed. They
Speaker 1: were really really committed to forgiving for their own well
Speaker 1: being and in a lot of cases, for the well
Speaker 1: being of other people and frankly of the world. And
Speaker 1: so that commitment and that intention really held a lot
Speaker 1: of Wait. So what that means is that you know
Speaker 1: you're not going to get there in one day. If
Speaker 1: we're talking about something big, right, a big loss or
Speaker 1: a big betrayal, it's not going to happen overnight. But
Speaker 1: if when you're feeling upset, if when you're grieving, you know,
Speaker 1: if when you're observing yourself one more time, you know,
Speaker 1: wanting to ring this person's neck, you have in the
Speaker 1: back of your mind that bottom line commitment to letting
Speaker 1: go and moving forward for your sake and for other
Speaker 1: people's sakes, you'll do it right. And I think that's
Speaker 1: what I was sort of referring to earlier when I said,
Speaker 1: once I really understood the value of forgiveness for myself,
Speaker 1: what it did for me, and how much I would
Speaker 1: harm myself when I didn't, that was when it changed me.
Speaker 1: It's not that I immediately forgave everybody instantly. It was
Speaker 1: that I knew that was what I wanted, That was
Speaker 1: where I wanted to end up with, whatever the situation was,
Speaker 1: that was the place I wanted to end You mentioned
Speaker 1: it somewhere in the book. I think we get hung
Speaker 1: up on the idea of that's not fair, and um
Speaker 1: that can really stand in the way of forgiveness. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I certainly do. I mean, I'm I'm constantly dealing with,
Speaker 1: you know, some situation that I think isn't fair in
Speaker 1: the world, and dealing with my my opinions about that
Speaker 1: and my feelings about that and my reactions about that. Right.
Speaker 1: But ultimately, if I'm only focused on how something isn't fair,
Speaker 1: that's not going to get me what I want. And
Speaker 1: so I think, I mean, what's really interesting to me
Speaker 1: now is that it's not only our individual practices being
Speaker 1: geared towards the goal of mutual forgiveness that makes a difference,
Speaker 1: but it's also our collective societal practices, you know. And
Speaker 1: when I think about City Springs, which is the school
Speaker 1: in Baltimore where I spent time and where I did
Speaker 1: reporting on, you know what, the tools that they've used
Speaker 1: to drastically reduced fighting and drastically reduced suspensions in an
Speaker 1: interesting d school in Baltimore that had a lot of
Speaker 1: fighting when they started. People don't always feel like forgiving
Speaker 1: each other or seeking forgiveness in that school, however, their
Speaker 1: daily habits collectively are geared towards that. And what that
Speaker 1: means is they happen to use a practice called circles,
Speaker 1: which means when there's a conflict in a classroom or
Speaker 1: there's a fight that is brewing, everyone involved is brought
Speaker 1: in to the restorative practices facilitator's office. And the restorative
Speaker 1: practices facilitator is this wonderful man named Brendan Lean who
Speaker 1: is a Forward gang member and he then became a
Speaker 1: kindergarten teacher and then this facilitator at their school. He
Speaker 1: brings them into the into his office and they basically
Speaker 1: use a talking stick to take turns sharing his or
Speaker 1: her version of what happened in the conflict and ideas
Speaker 1: for what could resolve it. And you know, like I said,
Speaker 1: it doesn't mean that they all feel like doing that
Speaker 1: or they all feel like just burying the hatchet and
Speaker 1: moving on, but those practices and habits really pull for that. Yeah, exactly.
Speaker 1: It's another version of a phrase we use a lot,
Speaker 1: which is sometimes you can't think your way into right action,
Speaker 1: you have to act your way into write thinking. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's great. I like that. So one of the things
Speaker 1: I really enjoyed about the book. We're nearly at the
Speaker 1: end here, so I'll start wrapping up. But one of
Speaker 1: the things I really enjoyed about the book was how
Speaker 1: much you took what you were learning and reflected it
Speaker 1: back on yourself in your own life. I really found
Speaker 1: a lot of that writing to be some of the
Speaker 1: most enjoyable parts of the book. So I think that
Speaker 1: was great the way that you did that. Thank you.
Speaker 1: I'm really glad because I went back and forth about
Speaker 1: including myself or not, and so I'm glad that that
Speaker 1: was valuable. I think it made a big difference in
Speaker 1: your willingness to be vulnerable with it, and I think
Speaker 1: he really took chances with it, and so it was
Speaker 1: it was great. Well, thank you, and we'll ap up
Speaker 1: with me reading a little bit out of the book
Speaker 1: near the very end, and then you can add any
Speaker 1: comments to it if you'd like. But I think it's
Speaker 1: a great summing up of the book and of really
Speaker 1: the wolf Parable in general. You say gratitude and forgiveness.
Speaker 1: I realized have a symbiotic relationship. They feed and strengthen
Speaker 1: each other. It seems so simple, almost too simple, but
Speaker 1: there it was. The more you focus on the warm
Speaker 1: memories and appreciate them, the less power the painful ones have,
Speaker 1: and the more you look for what you like in people,
Speaker 1: the less you blame them for your own disappointments or failings. Yes,
Speaker 1: that is a really good sum up. I like the
Speaker 1: way you sort of tied forgiveness back to another practice
Speaker 1: that gets a lot of attention these days, which is
Speaker 1: which is gratitude. But at the end, what we're really
Speaker 1: talking about here is very much the wolf parable. In
Speaker 1: any situation, there are multiple interpretations and which one we
Speaker 1: choose to of our attention to is really determine so
Speaker 1: much of the quality of our life. Like like a
Speaker 1: Zeem did, he he chose to focus on what he
Speaker 1: could build out of the wreckage of what happened to
Speaker 1: his son versus what he wanted to destroy as part
Speaker 1: of that. And it's just such a powerful, powerful message.
Speaker 1: Thank you. I agree, And I think that point that
Speaker 1: it really is what we focus on is so powerful
Speaker 1: and that means the choice of what to focus on
Speaker 1: from minute to minute to our to our today to day,
Speaker 1: and that's what makes up our lives, right. And what
Speaker 1: I love about the book and the work that you
Speaker 1: do though, is it says that's ultimately the point, what
Speaker 1: you focus on is what matters. But it doesn't get
Speaker 1: in to pretend like Oh, everything's fine. I mean you,
Speaker 1: like you talk about going through the emotions. Feeling the
Speaker 1: pain is a big part of it, but then choosing
Speaker 1: what to do with that is is what you can
Speaker 1: do as you move through that process. Yes, definitely. Well Megan,
Speaker 1: thanks so much for taking the time to come on
Speaker 1: the show. Like I said, I really enjoyed the book.
Speaker 1: We will have a link to the book and your
Speaker 1: website and your ted talk in our show notes. Wonderful. Well,
Speaker 1: thank you so much, Eric, it was really a pleasure
Speaker 1: to talk with you. Excellent. We'll take care you too. Okay. Bye.
Speaker 1: You can learn more about Megan Feldman, Bettencourt and this
Speaker 1: podcast at one you feed, dot net slash Megan