WEBVTT - Ep. 71: Exploring Consumption & Ethical Veganism with Professor Robert C. Jones 0:00:00.400 --> 0:00:03.559 Oh hey, everybody, and that's the Hunty Collective. Another week, 0:00:03.880 --> 0:00:07.960 another show, episode seventy one this time, and we're gonna 0:00:08.119 --> 0:00:10.800 start you off with a little behind the scenes, a 0:00:10.800 --> 0:00:13.640 little life and time to fill the engineer. There's been 0:00:13.680 --> 0:00:16.400 a big movement around the country to keep Phil on 0:00:16.480 --> 0:00:18.960 the podcast, so I figured, if we're gonna people are 0:00:18.960 --> 0:00:20.960 gonna be hashtagging my boy Phil, we better find out 0:00:21.000 --> 0:00:24.120 more about what he thinks about things including peas, Game 0:00:24.160 --> 0:00:28.600 of Thrones, and other really interesting items. And then we're 0:00:28.600 --> 0:00:32.720 going to once again transport ourselves to Berkeley, California, where 0:00:32.720 --> 0:00:38.519 we're gonna hear from a vegan professor philosophy, Robert C. Jones, 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:43.559 and learn about what he thinks about hunting, about ethical 0:00:43.640 --> 0:00:46.760 veganism as he calls it, and some of his greater philosophies. 0:00:46.760 --> 0:00:50.840 It is a long, deep, and awesome conversation, so stick 0:00:50.880 --> 0:00:53.479 around for that. But before we get to that, it 0:00:53.640 --> 0:00:57.480 is summertime, and if you there's part of this podcast 0:00:57.520 --> 0:00:59.840 coming up where we talk about a certain sparkly beverage 0:01:00.400 --> 0:01:03.120 that I've come to be a real big fan of. 0:01:04.560 --> 0:01:07.920 And the perfect cooler to put in put that sparkly 0:01:07.959 --> 0:01:11.679 beverage in is the brand new day Trip lunch bag 0:01:12.640 --> 0:01:15.440 by Eddie. Now, you guys all know that I have 0:01:15.480 --> 0:01:17.400 a long history with the Eddie. I love their products, 0:01:17.400 --> 0:01:20.160 I love their people, I love their company. You might 0:01:20.200 --> 0:01:24.280 ask eighty dollars for a lunch bag. I don't know. 0:01:24.480 --> 0:01:27.920 I'm not sure. I'm telling you, man if but you 0:01:28.000 --> 0:01:31.160 get over the sticker on this. I mean, this is 0:01:31.160 --> 0:01:34.399 one of the more the least expensive YETI products out there. 0:01:34.440 --> 0:01:36.440 It's a great way to have YETI with you all 0:01:36.480 --> 0:01:40.040 the time. And for as a father who is running 0:01:40.040 --> 0:01:44.480 to all kinds of swim camps and bike camps, and 0:01:44.560 --> 0:01:48.360 running my kid to the river to go fishing, taking 0:01:48.440 --> 0:01:51.360 him on road trips to spot elk and and doing 0:01:51.400 --> 0:01:53.680 it just everything with my little guy, this is the 0:01:53.680 --> 0:01:56.520 perfect thing to have with me because he likes he 0:01:56.560 --> 0:01:58.920 likes water, he likes juice, he likes milk, and so 0:01:59.000 --> 0:02:02.440 do I all the things, and so it's it's it's 0:02:02.440 --> 0:02:05.000 a great product for that reason, and it's a product 0:02:05.040 --> 0:02:07.920 I would recommend. So go to eddie dot com and 0:02:08.000 --> 0:02:12.679 check it out. So, without further ado, Episode seventy one, 0:02:13.280 --> 0:02:23.440 let's go. I guess I grew up on an older road. 0:02:23.960 --> 0:02:26.399 A ped'll do the medal. I always did what I've 0:02:26.440 --> 0:02:30.000 told until I found out that my brand new glows 0:02:30.120 --> 0:02:33.200 the game sec in hand from the rich kids next door. 0:02:33.480 --> 0:02:36.160 And I grew up baths. I guess I grew up. 0:02:36.200 --> 0:02:38.520 I mean, they have a thousand things inside of my 0:02:38.560 --> 0:02:41.280 head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just 0:02:41.360 --> 0:02:44.200 want to do a real bad dream or being a 0:02:44.280 --> 0:02:47.560 like I'm coming apart of it seems. But thank you, 0:02:47.840 --> 0:02:53.840 Jack Daniels, Oh No. Seven, Tennessee. Who Hey, everybody, and 0:02:54.080 --> 0:02:56.120 welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am, 0:02:56.160 --> 0:03:00.519 of course, Ben O'Brien, and I am joined by Phill 0:03:00.560 --> 0:03:04.040 the Engineer. Hey do Ben, it's good now, Phil. We 0:03:04.120 --> 0:03:07.000 got a lot to talk about. I'm excited to hear this, 0:03:07.840 --> 0:03:10.400 a lot to talk about. You have been a recurring 0:03:10.400 --> 0:03:12.519 guest for how many weeks? Now we're like four weeks. 0:03:12.639 --> 0:03:15.760 I think this is number four, and there's a little 0:03:15.800 --> 0:03:20.440 bit of a movement afoot hashtag keep Phil. I saw 0:03:20.480 --> 0:03:23.160 that pop up a couple of places. A lot of 0:03:23.160 --> 0:03:26.640 people were um giving you props for the way you 0:03:26.720 --> 0:03:29.800 handled the public versus private land conversation as well as 0:03:29.800 --> 0:03:34.360 the way that you handled the animal rights conversation. Yeah, well, 0:03:34.520 --> 0:03:36.360 I can tell you my secret. My secret is to 0:03:36.440 --> 0:03:39.440 let the people who have way more knowledge and experience 0:03:39.440 --> 0:03:43.120 about these topics to talk for thirty minutes and then 0:03:43.160 --> 0:03:47.160 I come in. Yeah, no, no, I say one vaguely 0:03:48.200 --> 0:03:53.600 intelligent things like generalized, generalize, I I and then people applauded. 0:03:53.680 --> 0:03:57.840 I say, yes, that's my whole career point. I'm just 0:03:57.920 --> 0:04:01.280 kind of like, yes, a great point, fell oh expert, 0:04:01.960 --> 0:04:05.680 That's that's how I roll. Um. But anyway, you're you know, 0:04:05.720 --> 0:04:08.280 like the movement to keep Phil is strong, and we're 0:04:08.280 --> 0:04:10.560 gonna I never I don't think I ever suggest that 0:04:10.600 --> 0:04:13.800 we wouldn't keep Phil, or maybe I did, but I 0:04:13.840 --> 0:04:16.120 think the first episode was a little rocky. I think 0:04:16.160 --> 0:04:20.480 there was an insinuation that maybe I would be around. Well, 0:04:20.480 --> 0:04:22.400 now I'm turning the heat up on you, Phil. Great. Now, 0:04:22.400 --> 0:04:25.039 there's no one else to except for me to do 0:04:25.080 --> 0:04:28.560 any talking. We don't need Ryan Callahan or Steve Ranella, 0:04:29.040 --> 0:04:34.200 who are these whatever? Whatever? No, No, don't need Yannis, 0:04:34.279 --> 0:04:37.440 but tulis in here, yucking it up. Just me and Phil, 0:04:37.880 --> 0:04:39.880 just me and Phil. Now, this is gonna be a 0:04:39.880 --> 0:04:44.480 long episode because the interview with Robert C. Jones Vegan 0:04:44.520 --> 0:04:47.840 philosopher vegan. Uh, he's not a vegan professor. He's a 0:04:47.839 --> 0:04:51.000 professor of philosophy but also a vegan, and he teaches 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:57.000 classes about veganism and ethical veganism, has written some papers 0:04:57.040 --> 0:04:59.599 on the subject. He's going to be our guest. I 0:04:59.640 --> 0:05:02.679 will say before we get any anything else, that I 0:05:02.839 --> 0:05:06.440 really enjoyed this conversation man likes as much as I've 0:05:06.480 --> 0:05:09.440 enjoyed any other conversation I've had with anyone really on 0:05:09.480 --> 0:05:12.159 this podcast, Maybe because I was coming off of a 0:05:12.279 --> 0:05:15.360 very confusing time that I spent with manimal rights activists 0:05:15.400 --> 0:05:18.039 from episode seventy. So if you haven't listened to that, 0:05:18.080 --> 0:05:20.960 please go back. Listen to episode seventy. Hit pause right now, 0:05:21.040 --> 0:05:22.480 Phil and I will take a break and let's you 0:05:22.520 --> 0:05:26.440 do that, all right. Welcome back. That's a long break, Yeah, 0:05:26.480 --> 0:05:31.039 welcome back. Uh. You've now listened to episode seventy with 0:05:31.080 --> 0:05:34.479 Matt Johnson from Direct Action Everywhere, and know that I 0:05:34.560 --> 0:05:37.279 kind of left that one confused, a little bit, a 0:05:37.320 --> 0:05:40.520 little taken aback by some of the points made. Some 0:05:40.640 --> 0:05:44.120 of the assertions around human slavery and animal rights, some 0:05:44.200 --> 0:05:48.200 of the assertions around disabled humans and animal rights left 0:05:48.240 --> 0:05:51.640 me a little bit taken aback UM and wondering if 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:53.880 I was doing the right thing and highlighting those ideas 0:05:53.920 --> 0:05:56.600 I left. I will say that I left that podcast 0:05:56.600 --> 0:05:58.360 thinking exactly that it was that is just the right 0:05:58.400 --> 0:06:00.719 thing to do to let someone like that have my 0:06:00.880 --> 0:06:06.440 platform to espouse those ideas. But luckily, the next day 0:06:06.520 --> 0:06:09.080 I met with Robert C. Jones, who you're about to 0:06:09.080 --> 0:06:13.240 hear soon, and he helped me get through some of 0:06:13.240 --> 0:06:15.440 the issues I had and I came to a better place. 0:06:15.480 --> 0:06:18.200 And I think this to our conversation with Robert Jones 0:06:19.160 --> 0:06:21.080 was about as productive as they come between a hunter 0:06:21.080 --> 0:06:23.800 and a vegan, and hopefully you'll think the same thing. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:28.200 So we'll get to that in a little bit, but 0:06:28.240 --> 0:06:31.280 before we do, I got a couple of emails that 0:06:31.360 --> 0:06:36.440 came in regarding that last podcast. UM. One of them 0:06:36.480 --> 0:06:40.160 just says it's from Demetrius man as SR. He said 0:06:40.160 --> 0:06:43.000 in regards to the point made that we give disabled 0:06:43.040 --> 0:06:46.480 people rights that they don't understand, and why wouldn't we 0:06:46.480 --> 0:06:48.640 do the same for animals, I think we could offer 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.120 a counterpoint that the disabled humans will typically have a 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:55.680 caregiver or family member that does understand those rights. There 0:06:55.760 --> 0:06:58.280 is not another animal that will understand what those rights 0:06:58.320 --> 0:07:01.480 are and dictate them or champion for that animal. Just 0:07:01.560 --> 0:07:06.599 my two cents. Thanks for all you do. Demetrius from Ohio. Yeah, 0:07:06.720 --> 0:07:08.240 that's fine. What do you think about that, Phil? I 0:07:08.240 --> 0:07:13.560 think that solves that problem. Uh, solve it. I mean 0:07:13.640 --> 0:07:15.520 it's like, it's a good point that I don't think 0:07:15.600 --> 0:07:19.040 was was raised last week. But yeah, it's just more 0:07:19.080 --> 0:07:22.960 to chew on. Yeah, I think it's a yeah, yeah, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:25.560 it's it's there's there's again. I think part of the 0:07:25.560 --> 0:07:27.560 reason why I was made uncomfortable that because there is 0:07:27.600 --> 0:07:30.640 really no logical way to dance through that that idea. 0:07:31.240 --> 0:07:34.280 I haven't. I've thought about it a lot since that conversation. 0:07:34.360 --> 0:07:36.480 I hadn't thought about it at all coming into it. 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:40.520 And so now one of the good, um, one of 0:07:40.560 --> 0:07:42.560 the good things about the conversation, Matt Johns was I 0:07:42.560 --> 0:07:48.360 was able to think through that assertion and I still have. 0:07:48.520 --> 0:07:51.239 I I see no validity in it. I just don't. 0:07:51.360 --> 0:07:55.000 So we'll move on from it. Another guy, Dennis White 0:07:55.000 --> 0:07:57.840 wrote in and he was and he said, Hey, Ben, 0:07:58.000 --> 0:08:00.240 I was really looking forward to this episode, and when 0:08:00.240 --> 0:08:02.160 you announced that you were going to talk with someone 0:08:02.200 --> 0:08:04.440 from that world, I just finished it, and I was 0:08:04.480 --> 0:08:07.600 honestly a little let down. I think his answers were 0:08:07.640 --> 0:08:09.920 just cookie cutter responses that he has followed away in 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:13.080 his brain just to use them against any argument, any 0:08:13.080 --> 0:08:16.120 time with anyone. If he compared animal race to slavery 0:08:16.200 --> 0:08:18.080 one more time, I was going to jump out of 0:08:18.080 --> 0:08:20.760 my skin. I don't remember a response that he gave 0:08:21.760 --> 0:08:25.760 that didn't involve slavery. In the end, the mental gymnastics 0:08:25.760 --> 0:08:27.480 that man has to play just to make a point 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:32.120 with little or no credence must be extremely exhausting. I 0:08:32.120 --> 0:08:38.200 don't know he goes. I can feel that frustration, and 0:08:38.240 --> 0:08:40.040 I think a lot of folks that wrote in voiced 0:08:40.080 --> 0:08:43.320 that around that podcast. But but at least now we 0:08:43.440 --> 0:08:46.040 know kind of where someone like Matt Johnson is coming from, 0:08:46.040 --> 0:08:48.080 and we can work through the things we agree with 0:08:48.120 --> 0:08:50.040 and the things we don't. So we'll leave that behind 0:08:50.400 --> 0:08:55.040 and we'll look forward to Robert C. Jones. But before 0:08:55.040 --> 0:08:57.040 we do, we're gonna find We're gonna find a little 0:08:57.040 --> 0:09:00.599 bit about Phil, the mysterious man behind the keyboard, or 0:09:00.600 --> 0:09:02.520 it's not that's not really keyboard, is it? Phil? What is? 0:09:02.600 --> 0:09:04.360 What would you call that? That is a mixing a 0:09:04.440 --> 0:09:07.840 mixing board, a mixing board. Yes, And if there's gonna 0:09:07.840 --> 0:09:10.960 be a movement around someone, then we gotta we gotta 0:09:11.000 --> 0:09:13.200 know who they are. So Phil, we're gonna go through 0:09:13.200 --> 0:09:16.679 your entire list story to your entire life story. All right, 0:09:16.720 --> 0:09:18.760 I've been preparing my whole life. Where were you born? 0:09:19.440 --> 0:09:23.280 I was born in a in a city outside of Portland, Oregon, 0:09:23.760 --> 0:09:28.840 that's actually in Washington State called Vancouver. Whoa hot bed 0:09:29.240 --> 0:09:34.240 for hot bed for undercover animal rights access it. Yeah, 0:09:34.400 --> 0:09:37.040 but vegan butcher shops and the like. When you mentioned 0:09:37.040 --> 0:09:40.240 in Portland, that's like the woke capital of the world. 0:09:40.880 --> 0:09:45.000 And so maybe are you Maybe we just discovered the 0:09:45.040 --> 0:09:49.320 real reason you're here. Uh okay, this is where I 0:09:49.360 --> 0:09:54.200 grabbed the microphones in the mixing board, scream something, scream 0:09:54.240 --> 0:09:58.760 something about it slavery, slavery, and you run away. All right, 0:09:58.800 --> 0:10:01.520 Well that's playing out your childhood went over there in 0:10:01.720 --> 0:10:06.640 Oregon or Washington, Washington. Yeah. The reason I related to 0:10:07.000 --> 0:10:11.080 Portland is because whenever I say Vancouver, people automatically assume Vancouver, 0:10:11.160 --> 0:10:16.679 British Columbia, which is the bigger, the bigger city. But Vancouver, Washington, 0:10:16.920 --> 0:10:19.240 it's a it's a nice little suburban area. It was 0:10:19.240 --> 0:10:23.600 like relatively um quaint childhood. No, yeah, man, I yeah. 0:10:23.679 --> 0:10:27.280 I went to school there, came to school, uh college, 0:10:27.320 --> 0:10:29.760 and in Bozeman, went to the film school out here. 0:10:30.800 --> 0:10:34.520 Um and uh yeah. I worked in television after that 0:10:34.600 --> 0:10:37.360 for almost six years. And now I'm now I'm here 0:10:37.360 --> 0:10:40.120 and I've been lucky enough to be using my film 0:10:40.160 --> 0:10:43.080 degree in Montana, which is that just kind of rare? 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:45.600 Most most of my friends fled to New York or 0:10:45.720 --> 0:10:47.440 l A or the like. Okay, film out of the 0:10:47.440 --> 0:10:54.440 important stuff. Okay, ready you like pas? Yeah? What what 0:10:54.559 --> 0:10:56.520 kind we're talking? Snap, we're talking just kind of like 0:10:56.840 --> 0:11:02.000 an ushy These are good? All right? That's a strike 0:11:02.080 --> 0:11:09.440 against you running thing. Are you aware, Phil? If you're 0:11:09.480 --> 0:11:10.719 gonna be a part of the show, you should be 0:11:10.800 --> 0:11:15.200 aware that I have a I don't say I hate peas. 0:11:16.520 --> 0:11:20.240 Where did this come from? Who are you? Yes? Showed 0:11:20.240 --> 0:11:24.320 me show me on the pod where the hurt you? Um? Listen, 0:11:25.400 --> 0:11:27.520 there's a thing called Shepherd's pie. You ever had that? 0:11:27.679 --> 0:11:30.760 I enjoy Shepherd's Have you ever had Shepherd's pie with 0:11:30.760 --> 0:11:33.280 a P in it? It's like a little it's just 0:11:33.320 --> 0:11:36.400 like a ruinous little green ball that comes out. You 0:11:36.480 --> 0:11:39.520 find it to be delightful. It's very delightful. I do not. 0:11:40.080 --> 0:11:42.760 I find the Shepherd's pies like my favorite thing. And 0:11:42.800 --> 0:11:45.319 I never understood why. There was like some bites I 0:11:45.480 --> 0:11:47.679 enjoyed a lot, and then other bites I thought, well, 0:11:47.760 --> 0:11:52.800 this is am I eating garbage? Am I eating poison? 0:11:53.160 --> 0:11:54.319 And then other bites would be like, this is the 0:11:54.360 --> 0:11:56.760 best thing I ever had. And I realized the bites 0:11:56.800 --> 0:11:59.400 without the peas where the bites that I enjoyed, and 0:11:59.480 --> 0:12:01.480 the bites with the piece for the pies I did 0:12:01.559 --> 0:12:06.440 not enjoy. Now there's been some people right in uh 0:12:07.200 --> 0:12:11.760 a feller named Simon Lester. That's his Instagram handle. At 0:12:11.800 --> 0:12:14.959 least is it chating me because he's like in the 0:12:15.000 --> 0:12:18.000 p industry, we're friends with pea farmers that I'm like 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:23.240 ruining their lagoon love or like there they profit from it, 0:12:23.280 --> 0:12:26.120 and also says there's good deer hunting on pea farms 0:12:26.160 --> 0:12:28.760 around the country. So okay, maybe I've been proven wrong. 0:12:28.800 --> 0:12:33.319 But doesn't make me like peas anymore? Is it? Is 0:12:33.360 --> 0:12:36.120 it a texture, a taste, a combination, all all of it? 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:37.520 You hate all of it, all of it. The only 0:12:37.559 --> 0:12:40.319 thing that I don't hate is the color green, but 0:12:40.440 --> 0:12:43.199 when applied to peas, I hate the color green. That's 0:12:43.200 --> 0:12:46.600 a shame. I feel like the specific shade of green 0:12:47.400 --> 0:12:49.760 that you know is a part of the pea is 0:12:50.320 --> 0:12:56.599 it's it's bright looks, it looks nutritious and delicious, and 0:12:56.720 --> 0:13:00.439 I would say that it's both. Oh my god. All right, Well, 0:13:00.520 --> 0:13:02.600 moving on. So you know we're in a peak Canary 0:13:02.760 --> 0:13:07.800 right now. Yeah, there is an entire festival in Bozeman 0:13:08.960 --> 0:13:15.360 that is named after the p unbelievable. So I think 0:13:15.440 --> 0:13:18.640 you're in the wrong city. It's misguided. I mean, for 0:13:18.760 --> 0:13:22.240 sure we could agree on that, right Phil, Nope, Nope, 0:13:22.320 --> 0:13:27.080 can agree on that. Okay, Um, bald eagle or wild turkey? 0:13:27.160 --> 0:13:32.199 Which one would you choose? Bald eagle? Well? Are we 0:13:32.240 --> 0:13:35.880 talking about eating not eating? No? Just in general, Like 0:13:35.960 --> 0:13:39.040 if I put two things beside you, you would choose 0:13:39.040 --> 0:13:43.079 the bald eagle. Okay, that's fine. Are you pro or 0:13:43.080 --> 0:13:50.400 anti apple pie? Very pro? Boy? Wow, I think I'm 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.760 over four. What's going on? You don't? But you don't 0:13:53.800 --> 0:13:57.839 think that like apple pie is overrated? I mean, I 0:13:57.960 --> 0:14:01.240 just are you just eating like off the shelf grocery 0:14:01.280 --> 0:14:03.560 store apple pies. If you know, I've had a lot 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:06.880 of homemade apple pies and I just don't feel. Man, 0:14:07.000 --> 0:14:08.800 you get that all the mode, and you don't you know, 0:14:08.960 --> 0:14:14.599 you get the perfect and that is delicious. But I 0:14:14.640 --> 0:14:17.280 don't mind all the mode. But I do mind apple pie, 0:14:17.360 --> 0:14:18.959 like apple pie is being built up as like this 0:14:19.080 --> 0:14:21.680 American tradition. No I don't. I don't. I don't buy 0:14:21.720 --> 0:14:25.080 into that. I don't be Americans apple pie now, but 0:14:25.960 --> 0:14:27.840 it's a I think it's a very good dessert. Let 0:14:27.880 --> 0:14:29.720 me put a few other pies out there for you. Okay, 0:14:30.160 --> 0:14:36.080 Rhubarb pie not as good as apple? Oh my? Oh alright? Uh, 0:14:36.600 --> 0:14:44.160 cherry pie not as good as apple. Oh ah. I'm 0:14:44.200 --> 0:14:46.320 just thrown off now because this is not going well. 0:14:47.440 --> 0:14:49.960 I will tell you I like the like like a 0:14:50.080 --> 0:14:53.280 key lime. Yes, better than apple. Good? Good. There we 0:14:53.440 --> 0:14:57.280 finally feel something. There we go. You're a taste maker, Phil. Uh. 0:14:58.440 --> 0:15:00.320 Let's see what else I got. I'm just coming up 0:15:00.320 --> 0:15:02.520 stuff off the flying that you like cheesecake. I do. 0:15:03.200 --> 0:15:08.440 Are your listeners enjoying this conversation? Okay, Phil, here's another 0:15:08.680 --> 0:15:11.200 guy that wrote in I'll find it on Instagram. But 0:15:11.200 --> 0:15:12.960 you send me a message and it was one of 0:15:13.040 --> 0:15:15.520 the more interesting messages he was. And then the question 0:15:15.600 --> 0:15:17.920 just basically was do you consider your listeners when you're 0:15:17.960 --> 0:15:21.920 making a podcast? I was. I think this conversation answers 0:15:21.960 --> 0:15:26.800 that question. I mean, yeah, I consider that they're there. 0:15:27.600 --> 0:15:29.640 But do I always just do? Sometimes I go off 0:15:29.680 --> 0:15:32.880 onto terrible, weird rabbit holes. But I think that's respectable. 0:15:33.160 --> 0:15:35.840 And I think you know the your your your true 0:15:35.880 --> 0:15:39.440 fan base will appreciate that you know you're not catering 0:15:39.520 --> 0:15:42.040 to them. They come to you because what you do 0:15:42.400 --> 0:15:45.160 get what I want to talk about. Here we go, Um, okay, 0:15:45.320 --> 0:15:49.000 what do you drive? Phil? I drive a two five 0:15:49.080 --> 0:15:55.600 Honda Pilot? Al right, shout out the Honda. Yeah sponsor 0:15:55.720 --> 0:15:59.960 us uh wait, hold on, speaking of sponsors, the trans 0:16:00.040 --> 0:16:02.600 that she lined up. That's why speaking of sponsors, we're 0:16:02.600 --> 0:16:04.880 gonna close this this part of the show out before 0:16:04.920 --> 0:16:06.840 we get to Robert C. Jones and this this this 0:16:07.000 --> 0:16:09.520 Roberts Jones. The reason why I wanted to talk about 0:16:09.560 --> 0:16:11.360 peas and apple pie and what we're about to talk 0:16:11.360 --> 0:16:15.800 about because the Robbers Jones interview gets deep as you 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:20.200 would imagine me and a philosopher for professional philosopher own 0:16:20.280 --> 0:16:23.600 veganism might get it got real conceptional and real deep. 0:16:23.640 --> 0:16:24.880 So we gotta I want to give you guys a 0:16:24.920 --> 0:16:30.680 little bit of candy before your vegetables. Here peace peace. Um. 0:16:31.760 --> 0:16:36.400 There's this product out there in the lexicon of sparkly 0:16:36.480 --> 0:16:42.400 drinks called white Claw. And now it was maybe about 0:16:42.400 --> 0:16:44.120 three weeks ago. I had no idea what white claw was. 0:16:44.960 --> 0:16:47.560 I knew that there was a billboard outside of Bowsman 0:16:47.640 --> 0:16:49.680 that had white Claw, and there was like a I 0:16:49.720 --> 0:16:52.040 think it was like a real nice looking young lady 0:16:52.880 --> 0:16:57.040 looking happy. She was looking really, I'm in fit tan happy. 0:16:57.640 --> 0:17:00.160 It sounds like an advertisement. Yeah, And I thought up, 0:17:00.720 --> 0:17:04.119 m hmm, maybe if I drank that I could be fit, 0:17:04.240 --> 0:17:07.160 tann and happy. And so I was at a buddy's house. 0:17:08.400 --> 0:17:12.159 His name's Omar, and he started whipping out these white claws. 0:17:13.320 --> 0:17:15.800 And there's a myriad of flavors. I don't know how 0:17:15.840 --> 0:17:20.280 many flavors are a white claw endless. They're adding new 0:17:20.320 --> 0:17:23.440 ones every day or so I hear. And I think 0:17:23.440 --> 0:17:25.640 if I might have been sitting around a fire when 0:17:25.680 --> 0:17:30.200 I first put my lips on this, I mean, just 0:17:30.760 --> 0:17:36.040 astonishingly tasty beverage that is known as white Claw. Well 0:17:36.040 --> 0:17:38.280 do you do you want to explain to the listeners 0:17:38.400 --> 0:17:41.080 what white Claw is if they haven't, I haven't had 0:17:41.119 --> 0:17:45.119 the pleasure. Again, I don't really if they look it up, 0:17:45.400 --> 0:17:48.119 I've got time to explain everything to you. But now, 0:17:48.280 --> 0:17:51.959 white Claw is a drink, is a beverage. Um, let 0:17:52.000 --> 0:17:53.720 me just look up. Let me just go to its website. 0:17:53.720 --> 0:17:55.119 Because I don't know a lot about I'm not gonna lie. 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:58.800 I only know that it's delicious and refreshing on a 0:17:59.720 --> 0:18:02.480 hot summer's day. It is what the industry calls a 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:06.400 spiked seltzer, I think is the term. This is being 0:18:06.480 --> 0:18:10.000 thrown around hard Seltzer. Hard Seltzer made pure. That's five 0:18:10.040 --> 0:18:13.840 percent alcohol bi volume, which is more than four and 0:18:13.960 --> 0:18:17.520 less than six hundred calories I think per thing, and 0:18:17.600 --> 0:18:21.200 only two grams of carbs, which is what I want 0:18:21.240 --> 0:18:24.359 out of my booze. Um. So that's that's it. I mean, 0:18:24.400 --> 0:18:27.240 it's and it's uh, it tastes like a little taste 0:18:27.280 --> 0:18:31.080 like alcohol water. It's yeah, it's like a Lacroix with 0:18:31.200 --> 0:18:34.399 a little a little a little friendly handshake. Yeah, I 0:18:34.440 --> 0:18:38.399 mean it's it's it's like how would you yeah, so like, 0:18:38.680 --> 0:18:41.480 how would you describe it? Well, it's you know, it's yeah, 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:45.200 it's like that Lacroix Seltzer water type. You know, it's 0:18:45.560 --> 0:18:48.840 completely it's there's no sugar, well besides the alcohol, there's 0:18:48.880 --> 0:18:52.520 no added sugar or anything like that. Um, it's not flavored, 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:57.160 naturally flavored essenced Uh, you know, just trying to watch 0:18:57.680 --> 0:19:00.280 the calories. I think it's a good option the hot 0:19:00.320 --> 0:19:03.840 summer's day. Uh, I am. I haven't told you this yet. 0:19:03.880 --> 0:19:06.760 I am actually a very big white cloth fan as well. 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:09.240 I am a proponent. I think this is a good product. 0:19:09.720 --> 0:19:12.720 This is it's a great product. It's a great product 0:19:13.520 --> 0:19:16.719 because there are so many now, so many different brands 0:19:17.080 --> 0:19:19.400 are and you know, companies are making their own version. 0:19:19.440 --> 0:19:21.800 You know, actually like big craft breweries are making their 0:19:21.840 --> 0:19:25.400 own hard selters now because beer isn't selling as well, 0:19:25.920 --> 0:19:29.520 and so like a local big Sky brewery Ada, Missoula, 0:19:29.600 --> 0:19:33.000 just started making making their own version. It's it's it's hot, 0:19:33.320 --> 0:19:36.359 it's popular. Yeah. I was told a couple of times 0:19:36.600 --> 0:19:38.160 I was posting a lot on the internet about white 0:19:38.160 --> 0:19:40.600 clothes trying to get sponsored. They didn't, I mean they 0:19:40.640 --> 0:19:43.000 didn't yet. They haven't yet. Maybe they'll hear this. They 0:19:43.040 --> 0:19:46.280 haven't yet responded to my many d ms on Instagram. 0:19:46.440 --> 0:19:48.800 Okay are you are you verified on Instagram? Do you 0:19:48.840 --> 0:19:51.360 have that little blue checkmark? I think that might help 0:19:51.400 --> 0:19:52.920 you out? Do you think so? Yeah? I think so. 0:19:53.040 --> 0:19:55.760 I think you could get verified? You think so? Yeah? 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:57.680 Have you have? You We don't have to you don't 0:19:57.680 --> 0:19:58.840 have to talk about it, but I think you should 0:19:58.840 --> 0:20:01.000 try to get verified. And I think white Cloud would 0:20:01.040 --> 0:20:02.720 be much more. I had to check who they like, 0:20:02.760 --> 0:20:05.200 who is this check marked fellow? I think they would 0:20:05.200 --> 0:20:07.879 be crestfallen. They's like, oh no, he's not worth the 0:20:07.920 --> 0:20:09.560 crap a you're worth the check or they would they 0:20:09.560 --> 0:20:11.440 probably don't even look. You know, there's so much competition. 0:20:11.480 --> 0:20:13.920 I think they'd take the advertising. I think they'd take 0:20:13.960 --> 0:20:16.840 this thing. So yeah, all right, well listen guys, I'm 0:20:16.880 --> 0:20:21.359 gonna bleach my hair start wearing some pastel colors. M 0:20:21.760 --> 0:20:23.840 I feel like that would go appropriately with my white claw. 0:20:24.520 --> 0:20:28.800 C Yeah, some like Sperry like get that yacht look going. 0:20:29.200 --> 0:20:31.520 I think, yeah, the white Claw is kind of like 0:20:32.320 --> 0:20:34.520 the yacht of well, it has a whole water theme. 0:20:34.520 --> 0:20:35.840 I think a white claw that's like a name of 0:20:35.880 --> 0:20:38.920 a kind of wave. Right, It's get that white Cap 0:20:39.480 --> 0:20:45.000 white Claws. Look at their label. Hey, you've you've enlightened me. 0:20:45.680 --> 0:20:48.919 I've you know, all no laws when you're drinking claws 0:20:49.000 --> 0:20:53.200 man there, see look at that. Why aren't they paying 0:20:53.240 --> 0:20:59.960 you already? Anyway, we've we've digressed way far away. Anyway, 0:21:00.359 --> 0:21:02.040 if you're listening to this and you are happy to 0:21:02.080 --> 0:21:05.199 be employed at a little company called white Claw, hit 0:21:05.280 --> 0:21:07.080 me up t C at the media dot Com. We'd 0:21:07.119 --> 0:21:12.240 love to discuss a sponsorship package that includes me get 0:21:12.320 --> 0:21:16.160 my hands on a bunch of free white Claw. Yeah. 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:17.639 And I think since I was a guest on this 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.919 episode where you, um, there would be I mean, were 0:21:20.960 --> 0:21:24.120 you introduced this idea, there would clearly be some overflow. 0:21:25.920 --> 0:21:27.920 That's all your position. Now we could get a little 0:21:27.920 --> 0:21:30.399 white Claw fridge to go underneath your board over there 0:21:30.400 --> 0:21:34.359 in the podcast studio. Uh yes, or even just on 0:21:34.480 --> 0:21:39.040 tap maybe. Oh why do they do that? We should say, 0:21:39.119 --> 0:21:42.200 like we're under extreme conditions here at Meat Eater. The 0:21:42.359 --> 0:21:47.640 podcast studio is about five degrees right now. I could 0:21:47.680 --> 0:21:50.320 go on for another twenty minutes about the the adventures 0:21:50.720 --> 0:21:53.800 that that I've been going through to um make this 0:21:53.920 --> 0:22:00.280 podcast studio you know, sound proof, sound friendly and A 0:22:00.320 --> 0:22:01.920 lot of that has to do with the h VAC 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:05.120 air conditioning system, which right now is pumping out way 0:22:05.200 --> 0:22:08.040 too much cold air. Oh, I got an idea where crowdsource. Okay, 0:22:08.080 --> 0:22:11.800 here we go. We got we got an h VAC. 0:22:11.880 --> 0:22:15.240 If we have any h VAC professionals and or um 0:22:15.920 --> 0:22:22.080 insulation professionals and or park A companies out there listening, 0:22:22.760 --> 0:22:24.920 we could use help in all those categories. Because it 0:22:25.040 --> 0:22:27.399 is like, I'm of course wearing flip flops? Are you 0:22:27.440 --> 0:22:30.600 bring I'm not? No, No, you're wearing sweet? What kind 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.160 of shoes are you wearing? That could also be part 0:22:32.200 --> 0:22:35.200 of the you know, they're just like like a trail 0:22:35.280 --> 0:22:39.640 running shoe. Um, I don't who makes them. You don't 0:22:39.640 --> 0:22:42.359 even know. I don't even know. Let let's see this 0:22:42.560 --> 0:22:44.880 is this is the problem here. They look well worn, Phil, 0:22:45.200 --> 0:22:50.560 I've used them a lot UM's definitely exercising New Balance 0:22:50.760 --> 0:22:54.280 a lot um. You can any we We'll just say 0:22:54.280 --> 0:22:57.359 they're New Balance shoutouts they are. They are not sponsor us. 0:22:57.640 --> 0:22:59.640 If we get sponsored by New Balance and white Cloth, dude, 0:22:59.640 --> 0:23:03.879 we would be the new Jobs. Buddy. I feel like 0:23:03.960 --> 0:23:06.520 he's he's kind of the perpetual New Balance sponsor even 0:23:06.600 --> 0:23:12.439 in the afterlife. All right, here we go. Um, anything 0:23:12.480 --> 0:23:15.520 else I missed? No? Um? Uh you know, just for 0:23:15.640 --> 0:23:19.200 future reference. You know, uh, I know you talk about 0:23:19.240 --> 0:23:21.240 Game of Thrones on this show, even though yeah, the 0:23:21.320 --> 0:23:24.000 show is over. I heard a story about you trying 0:23:24.080 --> 0:23:27.680 to explain it to Steve and then him being almost offended. 0:23:27.840 --> 0:23:31.120 He just didn't even doesn't like serial dramas, didn't understand 0:23:31.160 --> 0:23:33.080 the dragons. No, but if you ever want to go 0:23:33.200 --> 0:23:36.239 into a throne's deep dive on this show, I've been 0:23:36.240 --> 0:23:38.960 asked several times. I've been asked several times since that 0:23:39.040 --> 0:23:42.320 episode because people don't always listen every week, so they'll 0:23:42.359 --> 0:23:44.719 like catching up. They'll be like five weeks behind. Did 0:23:44.800 --> 0:23:46.879 you comment on the ending of Game of Thrones? I 0:23:46.960 --> 0:23:50.959 say no, because it was terrible. I mean maybe the worst, 0:23:52.440 --> 0:23:54.679 Like the last two seasons were just not they were 0:23:54.760 --> 0:23:57.680 terrible television. I mean just the writing just went off 0:23:57.800 --> 0:24:00.520 the rails that the acting went all the rails, proc 0:24:00.760 --> 0:24:03.159 the actors were reading the reading the scripts, like what 0:24:03.520 --> 0:24:04.959 am I happy to? What do I have to say now? 0:24:05.720 --> 0:24:08.520 Like the last episode was just I thought I read 0:24:08.560 --> 0:24:11.359 a spoiler of that last episode and I thought it 0:24:11.520 --> 0:24:14.200 was a joke. I thought, well, that's not, that's not 0:24:14.359 --> 0:24:16.879 They're not gonna do that brand as the King are 0:24:16.880 --> 0:24:19.119 you talking about? Didn't you hear Terry and he has 0:24:19.119 --> 0:24:23.639 a good story. That's like some ridiculous Hollywood writer that 0:24:23.840 --> 0:24:28.240 had to save the crappy storyline. Uh well, see, here's 0:24:28.240 --> 0:24:29.840 the thing. He doesn't even have a good story. He 0:24:30.520 --> 0:24:32.760 was one whole season the show. He wasn't even in 0:24:33.480 --> 0:24:39.879 uh huh what he was underground, wheeling towards the learning 0:24:39.960 --> 0:24:42.639 about he's becoming. I don't know if you heard he's 0:24:42.680 --> 0:24:45.159 the three eyed raven. Now wells like you will never 0:24:45.240 --> 0:24:47.120 walk again, but you will fly. I'm thinking this two 0:24:47.240 --> 0:24:50.280 is gonna be work into a Dragon. No, didn't work 0:24:50.320 --> 0:24:53.080 into a dragon or into a raven and just watched 0:24:53.119 --> 0:24:56.720 the Battle of which watched here's a share. The last 0:24:56.760 --> 0:24:59.440 season had many problems. I am not. I did not 0:25:00.040 --> 0:25:02.760 spies it. I think it had good moments. Of course 0:25:02.800 --> 0:25:05.920 it did that were overall. Of course it did plagued. Yeah, 0:25:06.000 --> 0:25:10.159 that's a condensed last two seasons. I think if they 0:25:10.200 --> 0:25:13.720 would have honestly stretched it out, Phil, that's like saying, well, 0:25:13.800 --> 0:25:16.040 my car drives most of the time, but it broke 0:25:16.080 --> 0:25:20.000 down six times last week. It's there's so many big, huge, 0:25:20.280 --> 0:25:25.640 fat problems. I'm not gonna argue, but this this could 0:25:25.680 --> 0:25:27.680 go on a while, Yeah, it could. We may, we 0:25:27.760 --> 0:25:30.639 may come back to this. We gotta get to we 0:25:30.720 --> 0:25:34.280 gotta go to Berkeley, we gotta get to Robert C. Jones. Again. 0:25:34.600 --> 0:25:36.320 This is a big time commitment, folks. You're gonna be 0:25:36.400 --> 0:25:39.000 with us for another two hours. So um, I'm not 0:25:39.080 --> 0:25:41.800 apologizing for that, but just get get prepared. Maybe take 0:25:41.840 --> 0:25:44.120 a break after this segment is over. Crack a white claw, 0:25:44.200 --> 0:25:47.000 crack a white claw. Get cozy by the fire. If 0:25:47.040 --> 0:25:49.920 there's a beach around, go to the beach, sit and 0:25:50.000 --> 0:25:53.240 get one of those chase lounges. Get in there. Um, 0:25:53.800 --> 0:25:56.560 I get ready because this is going to get If 0:25:56.600 --> 0:26:00.200 you thought last week, if he's at last week was 0:26:01.160 --> 0:26:04.920 a deep and interesting conversation about kind of the ideological 0:26:05.000 --> 0:26:08.840 differences between animal rights slash vegan folks and US hunters, 0:26:08.960 --> 0:26:13.040 this one is much much deeper. And again I'll say 0:26:13.040 --> 0:26:15.960 before we get to it that Robert Jones, I hope 0:26:15.960 --> 0:26:17.399 we can do more with him. I would take this 0:26:17.520 --> 0:26:21.320 conversation we had on the road, um and let anyone 0:26:21.440 --> 0:26:24.080 hear it live record, it doesn't matter. I think it's 0:26:24.080 --> 0:26:26.960 an important one. I think he is a pretty open 0:26:27.000 --> 0:26:30.840 minded guy. And and he did he compliment. He called 0:26:30.880 --> 0:26:32.760 me brilliant one time in the podcast. That's probably why 0:26:32.760 --> 0:26:37.360 I like him so much. And so, UM, I really 0:26:37.400 --> 0:26:39.720 hope you enjoy it. I really enjoyed it. I hope 0:26:39.720 --> 0:26:43.480 to have Robert back, but until then, enjoy this two 0:26:43.560 --> 0:26:51.960 hours Vegan the Hunter in Berkeley, California. I guess I 0:26:52.040 --> 0:26:59.040 grew up on an alder road. Robert, how's it going, Hey, 0:26:59.200 --> 0:27:01.880 Vn's good to see it, good to be here. Yeah, 0:27:01.880 --> 0:27:04.800 it's good to meet you too. I have been reading 0:27:05.320 --> 0:27:07.200 a lot about you and watching some of your videos 0:27:07.280 --> 0:27:12.639 and and going deep into the category of veganism. And 0:27:14.400 --> 0:27:16.880 we were just talking before we hit record. I'm I'm 0:27:17.080 --> 0:27:20.320 fresh off the heels of an interview with Matt Johnson 0:27:20.480 --> 0:27:24.359 from Direct Action Everywhere. Learning about species is m and 0:27:24.480 --> 0:27:28.600 learning about um animal personhood, things of that nature. So 0:27:28.720 --> 0:27:31.080 my my mind is let's forgive me, my mind is 0:27:31.119 --> 0:27:33.960 spinning right now. UM. But I do, as we were 0:27:34.000 --> 0:27:37.080 saying before, I do very much want to learn about 0:27:37.119 --> 0:27:40.720 these things that I haven't open curiosity. There's absolutely nothing 0:27:41.600 --> 0:27:43.520 about me being a hunter in a mediator that makes 0:27:43.560 --> 0:27:45.840 me want to know less about this or fight against it. 0:27:46.400 --> 0:27:50.800 I'm I have a legitimate, open curiosity about what you 0:27:50.920 --> 0:27:53.440 do and what Matt does. So before we get going, 0:27:53.600 --> 0:27:57.200 give us a quick rundown of of your background, um 0:27:57.960 --> 0:28:01.880 in both philosophy and then also veganism as it were. Well, 0:28:01.920 --> 0:28:04.440 I can tell you, and the short version of the 0:28:04.480 --> 0:28:08.600 story is that I know I grew up in a basic, 0:28:08.960 --> 0:28:13.000 basic American household, meet three times a day. And um, 0:28:13.520 --> 0:28:15.680 my mother, she would always tease me because after I 0:28:15.800 --> 0:28:20.879 became vegan, she would say to me, I remember when 0:28:20.960 --> 0:28:23.439 you were a teenager and I didn't serve meat at 0:28:23.480 --> 0:28:25.800 a at a meal, and you would say, I would 0:28:25.800 --> 0:28:28.120 say to her, mom, this isn't a real meal. You're 0:28:28.119 --> 0:28:30.320 supposed to have meat at a meal. So I so, now, 0:28:30.560 --> 0:28:33.880 of course she would now she looks at me, but um, yeah, 0:28:33.880 --> 0:28:36.880 So I grew up in that, you know, basic American lifestyle, 0:28:37.800 --> 0:28:39.560 grow growing up on the East Coast in Philly, and 0:28:39.600 --> 0:28:44.320 then I moved to um To l A. And I 0:28:44.440 --> 0:28:46.520 had a friend who worked at a natural food store. 0:28:47.080 --> 0:28:48.920 And the first thing that happened was he showed me 0:28:48.960 --> 0:28:52.560 a little brochure of a veal crate. You and I 0:28:52.640 --> 0:28:54.480 eat a lot of veal because that was somewhat part 0:28:54.520 --> 0:28:59.000 of my food, the old cut lance reveal Scalapini called. 0:28:59.040 --> 0:29:02.120 My mother was Italian, so um. So I was like, oh, 0:29:02.160 --> 0:29:04.000 I had no idea. They put these little things in 0:29:04.040 --> 0:29:07.480 little creates, and so that sort of planted a seed 0:29:07.520 --> 0:29:09.600 in my head. And I was like, oh man, I 0:29:09.720 --> 0:29:11.080 kind of feel bad, like I don't know if I 0:29:11.080 --> 0:29:14.280 could eat view anymore. So that was the first exposure. 0:29:14.480 --> 0:29:17.840 And then I read a book called Diet for a 0:29:17.920 --> 0:29:21.480 New America written by John Robbins. I don't know if 0:29:21.520 --> 0:29:24.840 you know John Robins. John Robbins, he was the heir 0:29:24.960 --> 0:29:28.440 to the Baskin Robbins ice cream throne. His father and 0:29:28.520 --> 0:29:31.920 his uncle started basking Robbins, and at some point in 0:29:32.080 --> 0:29:35.840 his development he decided to be a vegan and animal 0:29:35.960 --> 0:29:39.280 rights person, and he he actually renounced. He turned down 0:29:39.280 --> 0:29:42.560 the family business and moved to Hawaiian and grew plants. 0:29:42.800 --> 0:29:45.880 But anyway, he wrote a book called Diet for New America, 0:29:46.160 --> 0:29:50.280 and and really I had one of those like Road 0:29:50.400 --> 0:29:53.280 to Damascus moments, like the scales fell from my eyes. 0:29:53.320 --> 0:29:55.640 I read this book in like two days. It just 0:29:55.800 --> 0:29:58.360 laid out like, here's the animal rights argument, here's the 0:29:58.440 --> 0:30:01.200 environmental argument, here's the all of the argument. And I 0:30:01.320 --> 0:30:03.440 just I was it. I was just like, this makes 0:30:03.560 --> 0:30:06.000 perfect sense. I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. I 0:30:06.080 --> 0:30:08.960 want to decrease it. And I just on the spot 0:30:09.520 --> 0:30:12.160 kind of became a vegan. Yeah, how old were you then? 0:30:12.440 --> 0:30:15.560 It's in my twenties, the early twenties. Yeah, And I 0:30:15.680 --> 0:30:18.960 think we're talking about again before we recorded that there 0:30:19.160 --> 0:30:23.040 is there is this idea that that that I want 0:30:23.080 --> 0:30:25.760 to fight against that all, you know, like you kind 0:30:25.800 --> 0:30:29.000 of fringe, you assign that fringe motive to all the 0:30:29.120 --> 0:30:31.360 thing you don't agree with. And I think it's good 0:30:31.400 --> 0:30:33.600 to hear your story and other stories about how you 0:30:33.720 --> 0:30:35.560 came to this, to one you know what it's like 0:30:35.680 --> 0:30:37.960 to eat, mean, you understand what it tastes like. You didn't. 0:30:37.960 --> 0:30:40.080 You didn't grow up in a liberal incubator in l A. 0:30:40.240 --> 0:30:43.160 And Jane and Jane Fonda is not your your mother, 0:30:43.560 --> 0:30:45.800 so like she did sit in our tank a few 0:30:45.880 --> 0:30:51.280 times outside the house. Well, well you know, let's see 0:30:51.320 --> 0:30:55.720 thats reaffirms at all vegans, No Jane Fonda, but yeah, 0:30:55.800 --> 0:30:58.400 I mean for us, I wanted to set that up. 0:30:58.440 --> 0:31:00.760 You know who you are and how you came to 0:31:00.840 --> 0:31:04.600 what you believe, because I feel very strongly that my 0:31:04.800 --> 0:31:07.640 path came to my passion a certain way, and you 0:31:07.920 --> 0:31:11.160 you came in your own You got to your passion 0:31:11.200 --> 0:31:13.600 in your own way. Um, and your and your studies 0:31:13.600 --> 0:31:15.440 in your own way. So I mean it's it's it's 0:31:15.880 --> 0:31:19.000 critical to that, to that understanding your story is critical. 0:31:19.080 --> 0:31:21.600 I think for hunters to understand, well, I have hunted 0:31:21.640 --> 0:31:28.280 too as a teenager. As a teenager, I hunted just 0:31:28.440 --> 0:31:31.480 locally in Pennsylvan. You know Pennsylvania obviously, hold on a second, 0:31:33.080 --> 0:31:37.719 Oh yeah, yeah, you take a drink of water. Believe 0:31:37.760 --> 0:31:41.440 it in me, Like the vegan guy can't. He's unhealthy 0:31:42.320 --> 0:31:45.800 throat his drive because he doesn't have twelve So you know, 0:31:45.880 --> 0:31:49.680 as you know, Pennsylvania's a hunting state, and I grew up, Um, 0:31:50.120 --> 0:31:51.960 you know, people would go up to like Scranton and 0:31:52.040 --> 0:31:54.080 they would go hunting, and deer hunting is a big, 0:31:54.240 --> 0:31:57.960 big deal. And um so I did I've actually killed 0:31:57.960 --> 0:32:02.239 animals with a gun? Yeah, so mm hmm. I mean 0:32:02.280 --> 0:32:03.720 I do feel bad about it now when I think 0:32:03.720 --> 0:32:06.800 about it, as a little innocent I just they were 0:32:06.880 --> 0:32:08.960 just lit. They were like sitting ducks. They had no 0:32:09.160 --> 0:32:11.200 idea that I was ready to kill them. And so 0:32:11.480 --> 0:32:13.200 but I was doing it as a teenager where I 0:32:13.280 --> 0:32:15.920 was like it was fun, like I got I got 0:32:16.400 --> 0:32:18.920 a certain kind of gratification from it. So I do 0:32:19.080 --> 0:32:22.760 have that in my background as far as what happened 0:32:22.800 --> 0:32:25.480 with me, Like how did I end up, say, being 0:32:25.560 --> 0:32:29.280 a professor who's writing, you know, professional philosophy on animal 0:32:29.400 --> 0:32:32.120 rights after I did that whole you know, kind of 0:32:32.240 --> 0:32:35.200 vegan thing. I read that book. Then I started to 0:32:35.800 --> 0:32:39.400 Then I discovered that there was actually there were there 0:32:39.400 --> 0:32:44.840 were philosophical arguments that would undergird these beliefs. So rather 0:32:44.920 --> 0:32:47.640 than saying something like, you know, animals are like you 0:32:47.880 --> 0:32:50.760 and they have rights and stuff, when I started to 0:32:50.880 --> 0:32:53.520 dig deep into it, and I started to read sort 0:32:53.520 --> 0:32:56.440 of the classics, which would be Peter Singer Animal Liberation 0:32:56.520 --> 0:32:59.520 and Tom Reagan The Case for Animal Rights. Then I 0:32:59.600 --> 0:33:02.120 started it into like the nitty gritty because I've always 0:33:02.200 --> 0:33:04.880 kind of been analytical. And so then I went to 0:33:04.960 --> 0:33:09.239 graduate school and I, um, I just want to get 0:33:09.280 --> 0:33:13.800 a master's. But my professors, they they encouraged me to 0:33:13.840 --> 0:33:16.720 do the PhD thing, and you know, I'm a blue 0:33:16.760 --> 0:33:19.720 collar guy. I applied to a bunch of schools and 0:33:20.080 --> 0:33:22.120 I got a phone call one day from Stanford saying 0:33:22.200 --> 0:33:24.320 You're in, you know, the PhD program. And I was like, 0:33:25.520 --> 0:33:27.640 I was like, wait, I know there's a lot of 0:33:27.720 --> 0:33:31.600 Robert Jones, isn't Maybe there's another Robert Jones. There was 0:33:31.680 --> 0:33:33.600 no way I did it. So that was like they 0:33:33.680 --> 0:33:36.040 made me an offer I couldn't refuse. So when I 0:33:36.160 --> 0:33:40.760 went there, I you know, animal rights in the even 0:33:40.840 --> 0:33:44.320 in the in the world of philosophy, it's itself fringe. 0:33:44.360 --> 0:33:46.120 There's not a lot of philosophers who do this work. 0:33:46.320 --> 0:33:48.880 I mean, there's more now, but this was in nine 0:33:49.120 --> 0:33:51.880 nine years is and this is all It's like I 0:33:51.920 --> 0:33:55.000 got accepted to you know, it's like twenty nineteen years ago. 0:33:55.240 --> 0:33:58.760 So so what I'm getting at is that um is 0:33:58.840 --> 0:34:01.880 that at the time, I thought, I'm just gonna write 0:34:01.920 --> 0:34:05.200 my dissertation. My dissertation is called the Moral Significance of 0:34:05.240 --> 0:34:08.800 Animal Cognition. So I really got into like the moral 0:34:09.440 --> 0:34:13.640 the relationship between cognitive properties of non humans and how 0:34:13.719 --> 0:34:16.200 we value them. That was something I got really obsessed with. 0:34:17.040 --> 0:34:20.239 But what I decided was I thought, there's no one 0:34:20.480 --> 0:34:22.640 whoever went to Stanford in the philosophy department who did 0:34:22.680 --> 0:34:25.560 animal rights. So I'm going to be that person. And 0:34:26.160 --> 0:34:29.120 I'm going to use the cash of you know, West 0:34:29.200 --> 0:34:32.719 Coast Ivy to kind of legitimate in a certain way 0:34:33.960 --> 0:34:37.480 aspects of animal rights. So so that's how that's so 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:39.520 I've been doing that now for you know, I've got 0:34:39.600 --> 0:34:41.799 this job in two thousand and eight, so it's been 0:34:41.840 --> 0:34:44.880 eleven years since i've been you know, quote professional philosopher. 0:34:44.960 --> 0:34:51.480 And yeah, it's I mean, I I think there's a 0:34:51.560 --> 0:34:54.640 lot there. I think I think the issue of the 0:34:54.840 --> 0:34:59.520 moral sort of the moral status of non human animals, 0:34:59.560 --> 0:35:03.120 it's a really complicated issue. It's super complicated, and I think, 0:35:03.239 --> 0:35:06.799 you know, I'm drawn to those complicated issues. I think 0:35:06.840 --> 0:35:09.480 that's where the meat of our humanity and like the 0:35:09.600 --> 0:35:13.120 things that we're really tugging at us, even as yeah, 0:35:13.160 --> 0:35:17.480 I'm just trying to make you squirm tofu kill stuff too. 0:35:19.760 --> 0:35:23.359 We'll get there and get there. Um. I just think 0:35:23.920 --> 0:35:27.040 these issues are you know, I'll keep saying the meaty 0:35:27.600 --> 0:35:29.759 and and that's where like, that's where we can really 0:35:29.800 --> 0:35:32.160 get to the things that tug at us philosophically. I 0:35:32.280 --> 0:35:35.680 feel at least there's a lot of things that tugg 0:35:35.719 --> 0:35:38.120 at meat philosophically about hunting, and I'm just n abashed 0:35:38.200 --> 0:35:40.600 at trying to explore them. Just happen to do it 0:35:40.680 --> 0:35:43.719 in the public forum. But I mean there's really if 0:35:43.760 --> 0:35:45.880 I were to sit down and be like, what, you know, 0:35:46.040 --> 0:35:51.120 what worries me about hunting personally intrinsically? What what is 0:35:51.160 --> 0:35:54.600 it that that just just makes me ache? And it's 0:35:54.640 --> 0:35:57.520 just like, boy man, this thing is it's my it's 0:35:57.560 --> 0:36:00.759 the industry I'm in, it's the lifestyle I've chosen. It's 0:36:00.800 --> 0:36:02.640 the thing I'm most passionate about. Is the thing I 0:36:02.719 --> 0:36:06.440 think the most about, and it involves killing things and 0:36:06.640 --> 0:36:12.520 ripping their guts out. And so is that you know, historically, 0:36:12.560 --> 0:36:14.640 if I look at the span of history in thirty years, 0:36:14.640 --> 0:36:16.000 if we can look back at me and be like, 0:36:16.200 --> 0:36:19.080 what was this guy doing? Um? So that talks to 0:36:19.160 --> 0:36:20.880 me and I'm not you know, I'm open about it. 0:36:20.920 --> 0:36:23.279 I'm not ashamed of that. It's like probably should because 0:36:23.320 --> 0:36:26.120 if I'm going to do something as serious as go 0:36:26.280 --> 0:36:28.240 out into the you know, go out into the woods 0:36:28.800 --> 0:36:31.520 and find an animal to pick the animal, I'd like 0:36:31.600 --> 0:36:34.800 to kill go and kill it and then dismember and 0:36:34.880 --> 0:36:36.279 bring it home and feed to my family. That's a 0:36:36.320 --> 0:36:38.799 pretty complex and serious thing to go and do. It's 0:36:38.840 --> 0:36:41.640 not it's not a bike ride, you know. It's a 0:36:41.680 --> 0:36:44.640 pretty three dimensional kind of like way to to way 0:36:44.680 --> 0:36:48.440 to like recreate or to to to find joy in 0:36:48.520 --> 0:36:52.640 the world. So it's something that I that talks at me, 0:36:52.719 --> 0:36:54.800 and I think that's probably like we probably have this 0:36:55.239 --> 0:36:58.560 same kind of quandaries within within our consumption, within the 0:36:59.120 --> 0:37:01.920 what we're really involved. Then it's just like you look 0:37:01.920 --> 0:37:03.520 at the world and like, I got some problems with this. 0:37:04.320 --> 0:37:07.480 How can I solve those problems? Um? And I think 0:37:07.520 --> 0:37:10.080 that's where most vegans, I don't know about you, most 0:37:10.160 --> 0:37:11.719 vegans and me kind of a line like we're just 0:37:11.960 --> 0:37:15.919 there's we see the issues with consumption and the human 0:37:15.960 --> 0:37:18.960 engine that we are, and we're trying to solve those things. Yeah, 0:37:19.640 --> 0:37:22.200 do you think so? I read I want to talk 0:37:22.200 --> 0:37:23.840 about that. We'll probably talk about this forever, But I 0:37:23.920 --> 0:37:27.120 read veganism as an aspiration, and I was like clapping 0:37:27.239 --> 0:37:30.080 during most of it because I think I think what 0:37:30.160 --> 0:37:33.080 I'd like to do is first set up what most 0:37:33.160 --> 0:37:36.080 hunters are most folks might think about vegans and and 0:37:36.200 --> 0:37:39.359 and veganism, veganism as an aspiration. You knock a lot 0:37:39.400 --> 0:37:42.800 of those right over, like, at least in my opinion, 0:37:42.960 --> 0:37:46.040 you do. Um, So give us your like the two 0:37:46.160 --> 0:37:48.759 forms of veganism that you can see there to be 0:37:48.880 --> 0:37:52.120 there are two different ways that people can conceive of veganism. Yeah, 0:37:52.400 --> 0:37:53.920 so in that paper, and I want to say I 0:37:54.400 --> 0:37:57.520 I co authored that with Lori Gruin. Yes, she's she's 0:37:57.560 --> 0:37:59.680 a uh, one of the giants in the in the 0:37:59.719 --> 0:38:01.920 world of animal way and I owe her a lot 0:38:02.040 --> 0:38:04.520 for that. Um. But actually I've I've since developed that 0:38:04.880 --> 0:38:07.120 idea a little bit more. Nay, it's been a while, 0:38:07.120 --> 0:38:10.600 I should say that. I'm sure there's there's lots of Yeah, 0:38:10.640 --> 0:38:13.719 I've developed some stuff. But basically the way I was, 0:38:14.239 --> 0:38:16.719 the way that I conceived of veganism, the way that 0:38:17.000 --> 0:38:18.880 Lori and I conceived of it, and then I've been 0:38:18.920 --> 0:38:21.759 thinking more about it is so let me ben, let 0:38:21.840 --> 0:38:25.640 me just say first of all that it's so I 0:38:26.640 --> 0:38:29.920 feel like I've kind of gone around the circle on this. 0:38:30.080 --> 0:38:32.080 I've gone around the wheel. And what I mean by 0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:37.560 that is when people say, like, do I identify as 0:38:37.600 --> 0:38:43.880 a vegan because of the way that the term and 0:38:43.960 --> 0:38:48.360 the concept vegan has sort of traveled through the culture. 0:38:48.480 --> 0:38:55.120 It's almost like I distanced myself these days because veganism, 0:38:56.520 --> 0:38:58.040 in many ways, and I talked about it in the 0:38:58.080 --> 0:39:02.560 paper you're talking about, veganism is in some ways well, 0:39:02.640 --> 0:39:08.320 first of all, veganism, at least today in in popular culture, 0:39:08.760 --> 0:39:11.400 it's about It's about food choices, right, It's about the 0:39:11.480 --> 0:39:14.040 choices you you make when you when you go to 0:39:14.360 --> 0:39:18.960 purchase food or make food. And in many ways it's 0:39:19.040 --> 0:39:26.120 divorced from the issue of justice. And I see quote 0:39:26.160 --> 0:39:29.279 animal rights or animal ethics issues as it as a 0:39:29.360 --> 0:39:34.640 social justice issue about non human animals. And so I'm 0:39:34.719 --> 0:39:40.920 reluctant to use veganism interchangeably with animal justice or animal 0:39:41.000 --> 0:39:44.920 ethics because you know, Beyonce's a vegan, and all these 0:39:45.000 --> 0:39:48.239 people are vegan and they eat plant based foods, and 0:39:48.480 --> 0:39:51.040 so what I argue in that paper is, you know, 0:39:51.200 --> 0:39:53.640 you can think of yourself what I call like identity 0:39:53.800 --> 0:39:58.680 vegan or lifestyle vegans. So there are there are vegans. 0:39:59.600 --> 0:40:01.879 I mean, I don't know that this is not scientific 0:40:02.040 --> 0:40:05.040 by any means, but there is a stigma attached to 0:40:05.160 --> 0:40:08.240 vegans where people think that vegans are kind of zealous, 0:40:08.360 --> 0:40:12.120 self righteous kinds of people, and they think I'm holier 0:40:12.160 --> 0:40:15.080 than now, and I sort of I have clean hands 0:40:15.200 --> 0:40:18.919 because I don't consume any animal products. I don't wear leather, 0:40:19.320 --> 0:40:21.719 I don't eat honey, I don't use wool, I don't 0:40:21.760 --> 0:40:24.560 write and and and I know all this stuff because 0:40:24.560 --> 0:40:26.760 I lived it. Right, So it says in the papers 0:40:26.800 --> 0:40:29.880 that these vegans have an air of moral certitude and 0:40:30.040 --> 0:40:33.560 moral superiit artye, So so there's a certain, whether it 0:40:33.680 --> 0:40:36.280 be factual or not, at least there's a certain caricature 0:40:36.480 --> 0:40:40.680 of vegans that they have a kind of moral superiority. 0:40:40.880 --> 0:40:44.200 And I was at at the butcher's son shout out 0:40:44.239 --> 0:40:46.359 to the how did you like it there? It was good? 0:40:46.719 --> 0:40:49.000 What did you well? I'm curious, I'm so curious. What 0:40:49.080 --> 0:40:52.240 did you What is your order? I had? Uh, hopefully 0:40:52.239 --> 0:40:54.120 you can give me some more like some more dope 0:40:54.160 --> 0:40:57.040 on what's really going on there. I had the chicken grinder, 0:40:57.560 --> 0:41:00.200 which is a is a nice sandwich with some kind 0:41:00.239 --> 0:41:03.320 of chicken for sims. Suddenly they're like, whatever that was? 0:41:03.600 --> 0:41:05.719 I didn't really, I didn't have time. I was like, 0:41:05.719 --> 0:41:07.880 I gotta eat lunch and we gotta go over recorded podcast. 0:41:07.920 --> 0:41:09.600 I don't have really time to take this menu and 0:41:09.719 --> 0:41:11.080 kind of like, but I took a picture of the menu, 0:41:11.120 --> 0:41:12.759 said go back and look at the ingredients and kind 0:41:12.800 --> 0:41:15.239 of break down what was what. But it was good. 0:41:15.680 --> 0:41:18.520 I would eat there every day. Ain't problem with that. 0:41:18.640 --> 0:41:21.320 I just why did they We're gonna go, We'll go 0:41:21.440 --> 0:41:23.719 down this rabbit hole because we should. Why do they 0:41:23.880 --> 0:41:26.560 Why do they say chicken though, like I didn't anything. 0:41:26.600 --> 0:41:29.560 I understand. Why would you Why would you say that 0:41:29.640 --> 0:41:32.839 it's chicken when it's not. I don't understand. And they 0:41:32.880 --> 0:41:35.759 also said, like much like you're saying, we don't like 0:41:35.880 --> 0:41:38.560 the term vegan. When I was talking to the cashier's like, yeah, 0:41:38.560 --> 0:41:41.320 we don't really we say vegan. It's in there, but 0:41:41.400 --> 0:41:43.560 we don't really like to say it anymore. It's plant based, 0:41:44.239 --> 0:41:46.320 That's what he was saying, and much the same the 0:41:46.360 --> 0:41:47.960 much the same way you're saying it, and I think 0:41:48.040 --> 0:41:50.680 plant based, and I'll I want to go back. I 0:41:50.719 --> 0:41:52.480 want to go back to that issue about this where 0:41:52.520 --> 0:41:55.799 they say chicken and and the butcher's son, I mean, 0:41:55.880 --> 0:41:57.800 I I don't know if people who are listening to 0:41:57.840 --> 0:42:00.600 the podcast but your son is a fully vegan Delhi 0:42:01.040 --> 0:42:03.000 in Berkeley, and I don't know if it was when 0:42:03.040 --> 0:42:04.680 you were there. Every time I've been there, it's it's 0:42:04.680 --> 0:42:06.600 a pretty pack. You can get a table. And in fact, 0:42:06.640 --> 0:42:09.320 the guy that the folks I was with from direct 0:42:09.360 --> 0:42:12.320 action everywhere, they were like, this is the this is 0:42:12.400 --> 0:42:15.080 the slowest we've seen it. It's good, and it's it's 0:42:15.400 --> 0:42:19.200 all I care about good food. It's good. It's great food. 0:42:19.239 --> 0:42:22.479 To me. I just was like a bit like, why 0:42:23.080 --> 0:42:24.800 we just tell me what's in it? I want to 0:42:24.840 --> 0:42:27.000 know what I'm eating. It's not chicken, I know that, 0:42:27.960 --> 0:42:29.359 So I just like to know if it's a wheat 0:42:29.440 --> 0:42:32.360 based you know, like shred or whatever it is. I 0:42:32.520 --> 0:42:35.239 just like to know that. I don't don't You're not 0:42:35.320 --> 0:42:38.520 tricking me, but what you are doing is confusing me. 0:42:38.920 --> 0:42:40.799 I think I think we're going This is a good 0:42:40.840 --> 0:42:44.000 point I had you brought up there, the plant based thing, 0:42:44.040 --> 0:42:46.279 because this touches on exactly what I was talking about, 0:42:46.280 --> 0:42:51.279 and that you know, within the vegan movement there is 0:42:51.400 --> 0:42:53.919 like the plant based. Now, when you say plant based, 0:42:54.080 --> 0:42:56.560 usually not always, but usually what that implies is that 0:42:57.680 --> 0:43:01.520 I'm a vegan for these reasons. Um, it's not so 0:43:01.640 --> 0:43:04.360 much focus, say on animal justice issues as much. And 0:43:04.440 --> 0:43:06.800 it can be they overlap, there's a lot of overlap, 0:43:06.880 --> 0:43:11.600 but it's it's it's more about perhaps maybe health reasons, 0:43:12.400 --> 0:43:16.000 or it could be something like environmental reasons, environmental degradation, 0:43:16.080 --> 0:43:19.960 and and it's associated with or I should say factory 0:43:20.480 --> 0:43:27.440 industrial produce, agriculture and environmental degradation. So plant based for me, 0:43:28.200 --> 0:43:31.160 if if you looked at my diet, if you just said, Robert, 0:43:31.200 --> 0:43:32.839 write down everything you eat for a week, it would 0:43:32.840 --> 0:43:36.480 look like a plant based person. But I personally, I 0:43:36.600 --> 0:43:40.800 feel like my cause is a political cause. It's a 0:43:40.880 --> 0:43:45.440 social justice cause. It's not about diet, right, so so 0:43:45.680 --> 0:43:48.440 so going back to our original questions, So and I 0:43:48.680 --> 0:43:50.399 really what I don't ben, what I definitely don't want 0:43:50.400 --> 0:43:53.520 to do is come on this podcast and pile on 0:43:53.800 --> 0:43:57.480 vegans and because they're already demonized enough. But what I 0:43:57.520 --> 0:44:01.200 want to say is the version of veganism that I 0:44:01.760 --> 0:44:05.040 advocate for, and I'm writing on it now. I'm actually 0:44:05.080 --> 0:44:06.960 I've been struggling with writing this book for a year, 0:44:07.080 --> 0:44:10.880 which is which is thinking about the social justice aspects 0:44:10.880 --> 0:44:17.000 of of this issue. But um, veganism as as a 0:44:17.120 --> 0:44:20.279 liberation movement, not so much as a food movement. Right, 0:44:20.360 --> 0:44:26.640 So veganism as a political stance rejecting things like uh, 0:44:26.800 --> 0:44:31.520 corporate consumer capitalism, and environmental degradation, all these things are 0:44:31.520 --> 0:44:35.080 all tied together human health issues. So the picture is 0:44:35.239 --> 0:44:38.040 very big if you're a vegan. And I mentioned this 0:44:38.120 --> 0:44:40.600 all the time when I give these talks, like let's 0:44:40.640 --> 0:44:42.920 say you're a vegan, and by vegan, what you mean 0:44:43.239 --> 0:44:46.360 is that you do not consume and I mean that 0:44:46.640 --> 0:44:49.920 literally and figuratively with regard to say, purchasing, you don't 0:44:49.960 --> 0:44:55.840 consume animal products. So you might think I'm I've removed 0:44:55.920 --> 0:44:59.080 myself from the cycle of suffering, right, because I don't. 0:44:59.080 --> 0:45:03.240 I'm not causing any offering. However, let's say you, for example, 0:45:03.480 --> 0:45:05.880 you go to Walmart and you buy a cotton T 0:45:06.040 --> 0:45:09.239 shirt because it's cheap, and that cotton. To produce the 0:45:09.280 --> 0:45:13.040 cotton is really environmentally it takes a lot of resources 0:45:13.080 --> 0:45:16.279 to produce cotton. And then there might be a young 0:45:17.160 --> 0:45:21.400 a young girl who's inn Indonesia making you know, crap 0:45:21.520 --> 0:45:27.600 wages um to produce that that clothing under this kind 0:45:27.600 --> 0:45:34.000 of you know, um, global corporate capitalist economy, and so 0:45:34.760 --> 0:45:38.440 if you think that withholding your you're voting with your dollars. 0:45:38.480 --> 0:45:41.520 If you're voting, you're saying I'm gonna I'm gonna avoid suffering. 0:45:41.560 --> 0:45:44.879 Because most vegans who are ethical vegans, and I don't 0:45:44.920 --> 0:45:48.800 mean I mean non like health plant based versions, I 0:45:48.840 --> 0:45:52.000 mean of veganism. But most people who say if I 0:45:52.040 --> 0:45:53.480 say to you, why are you a vegan, and you 0:45:53.560 --> 0:45:56.200 say because I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. So 0:45:56.320 --> 0:46:01.280 there's an implication that by refraining from eating animal products, 0:46:01.920 --> 0:46:05.800 I'm decreasing the suffering in the world. But all of 0:46:05.880 --> 0:46:08.400 our purchases. This is what I say, And I think 0:46:08.440 --> 0:46:10.600 that's the paper where I say, I say, we all 0:46:10.640 --> 0:46:13.799 have blood on our hands. Yeah, there's have some great 0:46:13.840 --> 0:46:15.520 quotes in here and some things like that. That's where 0:46:15.560 --> 0:46:19.120 I'm reading them. Like, look, I think I think conceptually 0:46:19.239 --> 0:46:21.800 veganism is great, Like i'm I'm I think it's a 0:46:22.040 --> 0:46:24.160 if it's it's like, it's a choice, is the thing 0:46:24.200 --> 0:46:26.200 I want to do. Conceptually, it's great because it's you 0:46:26.640 --> 0:46:31.600 are metering or limiting in some way your impact on 0:46:31.680 --> 0:46:36.080 the world, and you're doing it for altruistic reasons. But 0:46:36.200 --> 0:46:39.080 the big argument that I've always that most people, most 0:46:39.719 --> 0:46:41.600 even ford facing folks that I know, you're like, listen, 0:46:41.680 --> 0:46:44.920 you can't your your hands aren't your hands aren't clean, 0:46:45.640 --> 0:46:50.920 they just aren't, you know, and you look at like say, oh, keenwa, right, 0:46:51.440 --> 0:46:54.879 was mostly produced in the Andes. I mean there's when 0:46:54.920 --> 0:46:59.239 the when there's more higher demand for keena, the price 0:46:59.320 --> 0:47:02.080 goes up for the that are using it and eating 0:47:02.120 --> 0:47:05.120 it where they are, you know. Mexican avocados is another 0:47:05.200 --> 0:47:08.279 great example of like, you know, the more demand from 0:47:08.320 --> 0:47:11.719 Exicano avocados raise the prices and screws with a lot 0:47:11.760 --> 0:47:15.239 of things, right, and deforestation comes from people like I'm 0:47:15.320 --> 0:47:17.520 I gotta prove more avocados. Let's just get rid of 0:47:17.560 --> 0:47:21.440 this far at and so there is there's just this 0:47:21.600 --> 0:47:24.080 this acknowledgement of that is a good Like when I 0:47:24.160 --> 0:47:28.040 was reading through that, I'm like, this acknowledgement helps to 0:47:28.160 --> 0:47:32.359 mitigate almost everything, almost everything we disagree on, at least 0:47:32.400 --> 0:47:35.359 the core basic issues. I think most hunters are, most 0:47:35.719 --> 0:47:38.880 meat eaters have with the It's like the moral superiority 0:47:38.960 --> 0:47:41.160 thing is just that's where I get off the bus, 0:47:41.280 --> 0:47:43.160 you know, That's where most that's I think that's where 0:47:43.200 --> 0:47:45.520 most folks get off the bus. So if you could 0:47:45.520 --> 0:47:48.080 start the conversation by saying, yeah, we get it. We 0:47:48.160 --> 0:47:50.399 had a lot, a lot of things to figure out here, 0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:54.040 but this is just my way of trying to better 0:47:54.120 --> 0:47:57.520 the world by consuming in a better way. I think 0:47:57.600 --> 0:48:01.240 that's that's understandable because that's what I'm doing. Yeah again, 0:48:01.280 --> 0:48:04.640 I see, I think that, And I don't know. You know, 0:48:04.680 --> 0:48:08.400 I don't know the hunting culture ben as well as 0:48:08.440 --> 0:48:12.000 you do, obviously, but I'm I would say if I 0:48:12.080 --> 0:48:16.200 had to guess, both in the animal rights world and 0:48:16.280 --> 0:48:19.520 in the hunting world, the kind of thing that you 0:48:19.560 --> 0:48:21.959 and I are talking about is not the predominant view, 0:48:23.080 --> 0:48:26.520 at least from my experience. It's not like i'd say 0:48:26.680 --> 0:48:30.600 this in the population in general. Most people, most consumers 0:48:30.719 --> 0:48:35.200 don't think about the interconnectedness of all these kinds of 0:48:35.320 --> 0:48:38.920 industries and human endeavors as the impacts that they have, 0:48:39.239 --> 0:48:42.919 right So, so I think it's important for no matter 0:48:43.040 --> 0:48:46.040 where you're where you come down on this issue of 0:48:46.239 --> 0:48:50.880 hunting or um animal rights, we're all involved in this 0:48:51.040 --> 0:48:55.040 cycle of destruction. You can't get out of the cycle 0:48:55.080 --> 0:48:57.640 of destruction. You can't have seven and a half billion people, 0:48:58.120 --> 0:49:01.120 nine billion people by twenty eleven billion people by the 0:49:01.239 --> 0:49:05.080 end of the century. You can't have that many people 0:49:05.480 --> 0:49:09.120 and have the place be sustainable. I mean, you know, 0:49:09.239 --> 0:49:11.560 you may have heard the statistic if everyone on the 0:49:11.640 --> 0:49:14.920 planet lived an affluent Western lifestyle, we would need five 0:49:15.000 --> 0:49:18.399 planet Earth's as like resources. Right, So so we're all 0:49:18.440 --> 0:49:20.920 we're all in this together. So the fact that I 0:49:21.040 --> 0:49:26.000 might refrain from purchasing or be activist, be an activist 0:49:26.239 --> 0:49:31.800 in trying to prevent animal suffering, that doesn't remove me 0:49:32.120 --> 0:49:34.920 from from animal suffering. It doesn't remove me from suffering 0:49:35.040 --> 0:49:38.239 or human suffering or degradation of the planet. However, I 0:49:38.280 --> 0:49:42.480 do want to say if here's what I think is important. 0:49:42.520 --> 0:49:44.759 And this is my friend John Sapan Matsu, who is 0:49:44.840 --> 0:49:48.000 a great animal philosopher in Boston, animal rights guy. He 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:50.120 has a whole paper that I highly recommend it. It's 0:49:50.160 --> 0:49:53.000 called The Animal of bad Faith, and he talks about 0:49:54.080 --> 0:49:58.239 how many of our moral decisions talk reflect a certain 0:49:58.320 --> 0:50:01.399 kind of what John John Paul the philosopher called bad faith, 0:50:01.440 --> 0:50:05.200 and that is we want to tell ourselves a story 0:50:06.000 --> 0:50:09.520 in a in a way that um, it's like think 0:50:09.640 --> 0:50:13.520 think about like this. It's we're just we're we're deceiving ourselves. 0:50:13.760 --> 0:50:16.400 So so when you think about normal bad faith, you 0:50:16.520 --> 0:50:19.400 think bad faith. If I make a bad faith contract 0:50:19.440 --> 0:50:22.759 with you, I know, in advance of premeditatively say yeah, 0:50:22.800 --> 0:50:25.440 if you, you know, build this thing, I'll pay you. 0:50:25.560 --> 0:50:27.359 But I know I'm not going to pay you. That's 0:50:27.400 --> 0:50:28.960 not the kind of bad faith. This kind of bad 0:50:29.000 --> 0:50:32.440 faith is a bad faith when I'm acting contrary to 0:50:32.560 --> 0:50:36.160 what my morals are, but I deceive myself. I tell 0:50:36.239 --> 0:50:39.520 myself a story. So in the case of the vegan, 0:50:39.719 --> 0:50:42.400 I might say, oh, no, I've removed myself from the 0:50:42.440 --> 0:50:45.439 cycle of suffering. And so it's okay that I buy 0:50:45.520 --> 0:50:49.160 this iPhone that has slave minerals in it, where I 0:50:49.239 --> 0:50:52.240 buy this BMW that has just plastic, there's no anim 0:50:52.239 --> 0:50:54.759 there's no leather. Or you might be a meat eater 0:50:55.000 --> 0:50:57.879 that says like, oh animals are you know, they're here 0:50:57.960 --> 0:51:00.520 to be eaten, and and I think all of those 0:51:00.640 --> 0:51:05.160 are examples of no, let's let's just let's at least 0:51:05.160 --> 0:51:07.759 put our cards on the table and say you can't 0:51:07.880 --> 0:51:11.040 escape the suffering. That animal doesn't want to die, it 0:51:11.160 --> 0:51:13.080 wants to live. So let's not make pretend that that 0:51:13.320 --> 0:51:15.360 you know, that's what it wants to do and so 0:51:15.640 --> 0:51:18.000 once we if we can shed at least the bad 0:51:18.120 --> 0:51:22.040 faith and have a quote good faith discussion. Yeah, that's 0:51:22.239 --> 0:51:24.680 that's where. That's where, that's where it starts. That's a 0:51:24.800 --> 0:51:26.920 huge and great point. I love, like I love the 0:51:26.960 --> 0:51:30.880 cards on the table because I there again like if 0:51:30.920 --> 0:51:33.880 I would have and I and I've made this mistake 0:51:33.920 --> 0:51:36.600 in my past, like the air of moral periority, I 0:51:36.760 --> 0:51:39.000 kill an animal there. I just go out there and 0:51:39.160 --> 0:51:42.600 I find this animal. It eats naturally, lives naturally, and 0:51:42.680 --> 0:51:46.200 I remove it from that landscape. And isn't that in 0:51:46.320 --> 0:51:49.520 itself the best way to go and get your food. 0:51:50.800 --> 0:51:53.320 If I were to take that towards and blow that 0:51:53.400 --> 0:51:57.400 up to the environment. I'm wearing you know, textiles, I have, 0:51:58.320 --> 0:52:00.920 you know, rubber in my boots. I'm driving a combusting 0:52:00.960 --> 0:52:04.680 engine vehicle out to go and get this thing. There's 0:52:04.719 --> 0:52:07.040 so many like lay those cards out on the table, 0:52:07.200 --> 0:52:09.320 like yes, you know, and I feel that way. I 0:52:09.360 --> 0:52:11.040 think about veganism too. I mean, if you were to 0:52:11.160 --> 0:52:12.840 lay the cards out on table as you just have 0:52:13.000 --> 0:52:17.480 and say, like I understand that that it is impossible 0:52:17.520 --> 0:52:20.479 to to fully mitigate all these impacts on the world 0:52:20.520 --> 0:52:23.239 around us. Let's lay that out on the table and 0:52:23.360 --> 0:52:26.640 be like, Okay, we can probably all agree on that. 0:52:27.600 --> 0:52:30.000 And I feel like that's kind of where hunters a 0:52:30.040 --> 0:52:32.239 lot of times that vegans can start, like we kind 0:52:32.239 --> 0:52:35.960 of start from the same place and just like see 0:52:35.960 --> 0:52:38.520 the world around me. I want to know it better. 0:52:39.239 --> 0:52:41.960 You know, I'm gonna try this way. This is like 0:52:42.040 --> 0:52:44.880 a adaptation of eating meat in in a way for 0:52:44.920 --> 0:52:47.120 a lot of like new and adult onset hunters what 0:52:47.200 --> 0:52:49.040 we call them, people that are picking hunting up in 0:52:49.080 --> 0:52:52.160 the thirties. It's a way, it's a way to like 0:52:52.480 --> 0:52:56.080 find themselves. It's a way to solve the same problems 0:52:56.120 --> 0:52:58.560 that I think that you're trying to solve. So there's 0:52:58.600 --> 0:53:00.439 just a lot of similarities in it. But I love 0:53:00.840 --> 0:53:02.960 the idea of laying the cards out on the table, 0:53:03.920 --> 0:53:06.320 the airs of superiority that we have in the hunting 0:53:06.640 --> 0:53:09.840 space and conservation and eating the meat and the organic 0:53:09.960 --> 0:53:12.200 nature to meat, whatever I think I could. I could 0:53:12.200 --> 0:53:14.040 poke holes and those all day, and I often do 0:53:14.760 --> 0:53:17.160 so in the same way that like your you can 0:53:17.200 --> 0:53:18.800 be self critical of your community. I could do the 0:53:18.840 --> 0:53:21.600 same thing hunting and lay those self critical cars on 0:53:21.640 --> 0:53:24.120 the table won't be like it ain't perfect, boy, it 0:53:24.200 --> 0:53:27.440 ain't close, and then we can get to the root of, 0:53:27.520 --> 0:53:30.000 like philosophically, why we're doing what we're doing. And no, 0:53:30.080 --> 0:53:31.759 it's not, it's just it's just dawned on me that 0:53:31.840 --> 0:53:34.480 something else that's interesting is, you know, like I said, 0:53:35.239 --> 0:53:39.040 I really want to as much as I have for 0:53:39.120 --> 0:53:41.680 the past few years, sort of made these critiques of 0:53:42.320 --> 0:53:45.560 a certain kind of veganism. I also and I and 0:53:45.800 --> 0:53:48.560 I so in doing that, I want to say, I 0:53:48.680 --> 0:53:50.759 also feel protective and I don't want to pile on 0:53:50.960 --> 0:53:54.680 because as I mentioned, the vegans are kind of like 0:53:54.880 --> 0:54:00.680 vilified and seeing as wackos, but also in in you know, 0:54:00.880 --> 0:54:05.000 in certain certain parts of the culture, hunters are seen 0:54:05.040 --> 0:54:09.239 as I feel, you bro like trophy hunting and that 0:54:09.440 --> 0:54:13.440 like really liberal, moral superior vegan kind of in this 0:54:13.640 --> 0:54:17.520 same pretty much the same bucket, depending on which which 0:54:17.560 --> 0:54:23.120 one you So there's there's there's probably if you again 0:54:23.200 --> 0:54:25.279 this isn't scientific, I would imagine there are a lot 0:54:25.320 --> 0:54:28.759 of Americans if you said, you know, what do you 0:54:28.800 --> 0:54:31.360 think about vegans, Oh, they're the extreme wackos. Oh, and 0:54:31.440 --> 0:54:33.839 what do you same person, what do you think about hunters? Oh? 0:54:33.920 --> 0:54:35.920 They just like the shoot ship and kill things, right 0:54:36.880 --> 0:54:40.520 with the elephant tail Donald Trump Junior at Elephant Tale, Like, well, 0:54:40.600 --> 0:54:44.080 sure he did, but that's just one guy. Um. Yeah, 0:54:44.120 --> 0:54:46.640 I mean and you see Pamela Anderson throwing blood on people. Yeah, 0:54:46.640 --> 0:54:48.719 but that's just one person, right, So I think it 0:54:49.800 --> 0:54:53.359 it's it's something that I can I've certainly I think 0:54:53.400 --> 0:54:55.520 in your work you have too. It's just like you 0:54:55.640 --> 0:54:58.120 kind of could turn inward and you know that some 0:54:58.200 --> 0:55:00.799 of the like some of the conversations with in the communities, 0:55:01.560 --> 0:55:05.040 these communities that are this tight, our insular, and there 0:55:05.160 --> 0:55:07.000 is you need to kind of turn out for a minute, 0:55:07.040 --> 0:55:09.719 look around and go why don't people dig this as 0:55:10.000 --> 0:55:13.400 much as I do? Like, why do they think the 0:55:13.480 --> 0:55:16.320 way they Why does the common person, you know, just 0:55:16.440 --> 0:55:20.040 a independent individual, if you were to posit those things 0:55:20.120 --> 0:55:21.320 to them, Why do they think the way they do? 0:55:21.760 --> 0:55:23.880 Why is it they think hunters are a bunch of 0:55:23.960 --> 0:55:27.600 redneck shooting fools and vegans are a bunch of you know, 0:55:27.960 --> 0:55:30.319 they're walking around protests and with buckets of blood. It's 0:55:30.320 --> 0:55:33.400 like why, why? And what can we do to help 0:55:34.000 --> 0:55:37.360 help those things? Um? And I'm glad we've we've already 0:55:37.400 --> 0:55:39.520 we're already in the same we've arrapped at the same 0:55:39.520 --> 0:55:43.400 place this quickly. But anyway, I think that's my I 0:55:43.480 --> 0:55:46.839 think that's my main question if you, if you were 0:55:46.920 --> 0:55:50.319 too in your own mind, kind of like lay out 0:55:50.400 --> 0:55:54.080 the similarities between a hunter like Steve Ornella have you 0:55:54.200 --> 0:55:56.520 met and we're a part of his Stars in the 0:55:56.520 --> 0:55:59.400 Sky documentary, and even well you know about me and 0:55:59.680 --> 0:56:02.640 and what we do at our companies. There would you 0:56:02.760 --> 0:56:04.319 if a Vegan said, what do you know about these guys? 0:56:04.360 --> 0:56:06.040 How would you lay it out in a way that 0:56:06.760 --> 0:56:08.360 you know that maybe they would understand there is a 0:56:08.440 --> 0:56:13.200 different version of Well, I would say that, um, from 0:56:13.280 --> 0:56:15.279 my you know from my And once again it's a 0:56:15.360 --> 0:56:19.160 limited perspective. I'm not like community. I'm not hunting for 0:56:19.200 --> 0:56:22.480 a compliment I get. But what what I would say 0:56:22.600 --> 0:56:27.120 is that what I discovered, UM, because I've known as 0:56:27.160 --> 0:56:29.320 I mentioned, I grew up in Pennsylvania and I've known hunters. 0:56:29.880 --> 0:56:31.960 I've been to people's homes where there's like you go 0:56:32.040 --> 0:56:33.520 in the room and there's like the bear, there's all 0:56:33.560 --> 0:56:36.600 the heads on the walls and all the trophy hunting, 0:56:36.719 --> 0:56:41.160 and um, one of the things I discovered about Ronella 0:56:41.239 --> 0:56:45.520 when I went out there to Montana was and looked 0:56:45.560 --> 0:56:48.439 into that that world. And then when I heard about 0:56:48.440 --> 0:56:53.200 the podcast and listen to you, then, um, what what 0:56:53.320 --> 0:56:58.360 I was surprised about was the sort of thoughtfulness, Like 0:56:58.880 --> 0:57:03.840 it wasn't merely the stereotype of like basically you're just 0:57:03.960 --> 0:57:05.799 an arm of the n r A and you are 0:57:05.880 --> 0:57:08.080 basically here to promote guns and killing, and that was 0:57:08.360 --> 0:57:11.320 that's that's an easy rout. But what I discovered in 0:57:11.800 --> 0:57:15.200 hearing your podcast and even you and I had talked 0:57:15.200 --> 0:57:18.400 before the podcast before I even agreed to go meet 0:57:18.520 --> 0:57:21.400 Steve and being the film was I was I was wary. 0:57:21.480 --> 0:57:23.080 I thought like, oh, this is gonna be an ambush. 0:57:23.120 --> 0:57:25.720 They're going to get an animal rights philosopher edit the 0:57:25.760 --> 0:57:28.560 film to make him look a galunatic. But so I 0:57:28.600 --> 0:57:31.280 didn't find that. So so when I talked to Steve 0:57:31.640 --> 0:57:35.360 and and we had conversation before we did the film, 0:57:36.320 --> 0:57:38.360 I felt like, this is a pretty thoughtful guy. We 0:57:38.560 --> 0:57:43.120 we we disagree about certain important what I would consider 0:57:43.240 --> 0:57:48.880 like ethical implications of what we do, but but this 0:57:49.040 --> 0:57:52.520 is the kind of person where I I felt like 0:57:52.880 --> 0:57:56.880 when Steve and I were having a conversation he was 0:57:57.040 --> 0:57:59.880 fully tuned into like he I felt like he was 0:58:00.080 --> 0:58:02.480 like I want to learn about what like the way 0:58:02.560 --> 0:58:05.800 you think he wasn't like I didn't get the impression 0:58:05.840 --> 0:58:07.920 that I just want to throw this vegan dude on 0:58:08.200 --> 0:58:09.760 on the in front of the camera and make him 0:58:09.760 --> 0:58:12.360 look like an idiot. So and likewise, you know, we 0:58:12.520 --> 0:58:15.280 just met. But in listening to your podcast a few times, 0:58:16.280 --> 0:58:18.640 I thought the thing I the thing I think about 0:58:18.840 --> 0:58:22.240 is with regard to your being a hunter is here's 0:58:22.240 --> 0:58:25.000 what I mean, my my general my first impression was like, oh, 0:58:25.160 --> 0:58:28.160 there are hunters out there who are actually thoughtful and 0:58:28.240 --> 0:58:32.320 think about this stuff rather than um kind of stereotype 0:58:32.560 --> 0:58:37.520 where no matter what in my experience I have and 0:58:37.680 --> 0:58:40.160 as you have probably with with animal rights, people's like 0:58:41.040 --> 0:58:43.160 there's a there's a sort of you circle the wagons 0:58:43.240 --> 0:58:46.920 and any kind of question like well there's wildlife management 0:58:47.080 --> 0:58:49.640 really like there's your license? Is that the best way 0:58:49.720 --> 0:58:52.600 to help animals? And and there's like the party line 0:58:53.480 --> 0:58:55.840 what I heard with you on yours and Steve is 0:58:55.920 --> 0:58:59.160 like not that you might you might disagree, but you 0:59:00.440 --> 0:59:02.240 And here's what I tell my students in my critical 0:59:02.280 --> 0:59:04.640 thinking class. I'll say, and I teach an animal rights class. 0:59:04.640 --> 0:59:07.240 I say the same thing I say when you come 0:59:07.280 --> 0:59:11.200 into this class in in September and then you leave 0:59:11.280 --> 0:59:15.720 in December, I'm not I'm not I'm not interested in 0:59:15.840 --> 0:59:20.160 your like your views from September you actually change. What 0:59:20.280 --> 0:59:22.560 I'm more interested is if you come in September with 0:59:22.720 --> 0:59:25.560 certain views about animals. And I teach a Cheeko State, 0:59:25.640 --> 0:59:28.640 which is in northern California. It's a big a community, 0:59:28.680 --> 0:59:31.720 big hunting community. And I have a lot of students 0:59:31.800 --> 0:59:34.680 because my class the animal. I teach a class called 0:59:34.760 --> 0:59:38.200 Confronting the Animal, which is in the g pathway they 0:59:38.320 --> 0:59:41.280 call food study. So I have all these agg animal 0:59:41.360 --> 0:59:45.720 science hunters taken my floah exactly what the hell? But 0:59:45.960 --> 0:59:47.760 here's what I tell them, And this goes to what 0:59:47.840 --> 0:59:51.400 we're talking about. Is that what I if I had 0:59:51.440 --> 0:59:54.360 to choose, if you left in December and you still 0:59:54.480 --> 0:59:56.560 felt the same way about hunting as when you came in, 0:59:56.800 --> 0:59:58.439 or you still felt the same way about meat eating, 0:59:58.840 --> 1:00:01.960 but you you actually had reasons, and you had you 1:00:02.000 --> 1:00:05.000 could you could think about now I understand why I 1:00:05.120 --> 1:00:07.040 believe this, or now I understand why this is more 1:00:07.120 --> 1:00:11.840 valuable to me that to me is is more important 1:00:11.880 --> 1:00:14.720 than saying, Oh, in fifteen weeks, I'm gonna make you 1:00:14.800 --> 1:00:18.440 into a vegan. And so when working, you know, listening 1:00:18.480 --> 1:00:21.160 to you and talking to Steve, it's like it's like 1:00:21.320 --> 1:00:25.000 having that kind of thoughtful conversation where you interrogate, like 1:00:25.160 --> 1:00:28.120 why do I do this? And is are my beliefs 1:00:28.800 --> 1:00:31.240 lining up with the world. As a vegan, I might 1:00:31.360 --> 1:00:34.040 think when I PLoP down my money and I go 1:00:34.240 --> 1:00:36.800 to the butcher's son and get a quote chicken sandwich, 1:00:37.320 --> 1:00:40.440 am I really helping the planet as opposed to just 1:00:40.560 --> 1:00:42.840 going on autopilot and going, oh, yeah, it's vegan, so 1:00:42.960 --> 1:00:45.600 it's good. Oh it's hunting so it's bad. Yeah, it's 1:00:45.640 --> 1:00:48.880 like this intellectual weightlifting you're doing. You know, I would 1:00:48.920 --> 1:00:52.080 say that I, why are you Why are you going 1:00:52.120 --> 1:00:54.120 over there? Why are you going over to the belly 1:00:54.120 --> 1:00:57.800 of the beast, Because I was like, I'm I spent 1:00:57.840 --> 1:01:01.080 all this time talking into a little microphone and trying 1:01:01.160 --> 1:01:03.160 to figure out if I'm right or wrong or trying 1:01:03.240 --> 1:01:06.240 to to judge how to approach a lot of different situations, 1:01:07.400 --> 1:01:12.320 and I'm like, if I can't take these beliefs over 1:01:12.560 --> 1:01:15.600 and test them on people that I respect and say like, 1:01:15.760 --> 1:01:17.440 let's let's throw back and forth and let's see what 1:01:17.480 --> 1:01:20.200 I can learn. If I can't do that, then I'm 1:01:20.320 --> 1:01:22.600 then I'm wrong. Like then if i'm if, I'm just 1:01:22.640 --> 1:01:25.640 gonna come and say, well, concert wise, hunting great, Well 1:01:25.800 --> 1:01:30.280 you know what, Robert conservation, you know what else? The meat? 1:01:30.400 --> 1:01:32.760 You know what else? The adventure. Oh, it's also fun. 1:01:33.120 --> 1:01:34.840 It's really fun to do. Like you said, when you 1:01:34.920 --> 1:01:36.440 went hunting as a kid, you had a good time. 1:01:37.440 --> 1:01:39.680 So those are those are the party lines, and those 1:01:39.720 --> 1:01:42.360 party lines I believe I believe in. But I also 1:01:42.400 --> 1:01:44.800 believe there's depth behind them, and there's holes in them 1:01:44.840 --> 1:01:47.760 that I'd like to fill in um And how better 1:01:47.840 --> 1:01:49.720 to fill them in than to to run right at 1:01:49.760 --> 1:01:52.320 them and just see see if they stand up? Because 1:01:52.360 --> 1:01:56.800 I don't want to be sitting around thirty years. I 1:01:56.920 --> 1:01:58.880 met a lot of hunters I met, well, not a lot, 1:01:58.880 --> 1:02:00.640 but I've met a number of hunters I very much 1:02:00.720 --> 1:02:03.680 respect that are getting up in age sixty seven years 1:02:03.720 --> 1:02:06.400 old and quit hunting and just start taking pictures of animals, 1:02:06.920 --> 1:02:09.040 you know. And so I would ask myself, why is 1:02:09.120 --> 1:02:11.400 that is that going to be me? Am I going 1:02:11.440 --> 1:02:13.480 to get to a point in my life where I've 1:02:13.520 --> 1:02:15.640 killed enough And why would that be if that is me? 1:02:16.320 --> 1:02:18.720 Why would I get to a point where I'm sixty 1:02:18.800 --> 1:02:21.800 five and I'm just done with it? Is? What's that 1:02:22.000 --> 1:02:25.920 say about the practice? Um? And so those questions, I 1:02:26.000 --> 1:02:30.520 think you are key to either one side being on 1:02:30.640 --> 1:02:34.200 the right or you know, at least intellectually sound with 1:02:34.360 --> 1:02:37.480 what we do. For sure, Yeah, I think part of 1:02:37.520 --> 1:02:41.240 it is being it's being critical of always being critical 1:02:41.760 --> 1:02:45.480 of whatever your beliefs. When when when you're fully entrenched 1:02:46.040 --> 1:02:49.240 and you think I've now reached the point where I 1:02:49.280 --> 1:02:52.400 don't need to question anymore than then you're in danger 1:02:52.480 --> 1:02:55.520 at that point, that's a great point. Then there's I 1:02:55.600 --> 1:02:58.320 think that's you see that, and I think you see 1:02:58.360 --> 1:03:00.760 it on the internet. Man, people, the rage machine is 1:03:02.120 --> 1:03:06.040 the internet is it's it's a bastion. I mean, anytime 1:03:06.080 --> 1:03:08.960 you have anonymity and then you can you can that's 1:03:09.080 --> 1:03:13.160 dangerous people they get you, um. And what's worse is 1:03:13.200 --> 1:03:15.800 we listen to them. That's what I wanted to go 1:03:15.880 --> 1:03:17.640 back to the other thing you're talking about chicken, because 1:03:17.640 --> 1:03:20.960 I know it's the chicken thing, because why and I 1:03:21.840 --> 1:03:24.480 want an answer to this that makes sense to me, 1:03:24.640 --> 1:03:27.520 and I will pursue it. It's like, I go in 1:03:27.600 --> 1:03:29.400 there and I got a lot of message from people 1:03:29.400 --> 1:03:33.680 and on Instagram as well, It's like, why why is 1:03:33.680 --> 1:03:35.560 it called chicken or steak? Why is it a steak 1:03:35.600 --> 1:03:39.400 and cheese if it's not steak? Isn't that on its face? 1:03:39.480 --> 1:03:43.920 It seems disingenuous. It seems confusing for no reason. And 1:03:44.240 --> 1:03:46.240 I did learn and going in there that you know, 1:03:46.280 --> 1:03:48.520 a lot of people that I live on what we 1:03:48.560 --> 1:03:50.560 think is a vegan diet, like you said earlier, don't 1:03:50.600 --> 1:03:53.160 like the label. So my assumption is like there's something 1:03:53.200 --> 1:03:55.240 in there that I need to understand, But I didn't 1:03:55.320 --> 1:03:58.520 just read the menum like it seems strange. Yeah, and 1:03:58.720 --> 1:04:02.040 and there is, I mean, just you know again, going 1:04:02.520 --> 1:04:04.400 you and I are part of what we're doing is 1:04:04.480 --> 1:04:06.840 like breaking the notion that there's a monolith on any 1:04:06.880 --> 1:04:10.640 of these issues, right, there's not there. There maybe you know, 1:04:11.240 --> 1:04:13.800 a consensus among hunters, but it's not a mono. Length 1:04:13.880 --> 1:04:15.760 And there's and same thing in the animal rights world. 1:04:15.960 --> 1:04:19.320 There's yeah, there are there are plenty of people who think, 1:04:19.560 --> 1:04:21.760 you know what, we shouldn't even name it chicken, like 1:04:22.080 --> 1:04:25.479 it's a vegan place. It's a sandwich. It's modeled after, 1:04:25.680 --> 1:04:28.400 you know, a chicken and things sandwich. You know, kind 1:04:28.440 --> 1:04:31.680 of you said it was a grinder, but um, but 1:04:31.880 --> 1:04:35.040 it's not chicken, so en I would have eated just 1:04:35.080 --> 1:04:37.800 the same if it was like a wheat grinder. Yeah, yes, 1:04:37.920 --> 1:04:40.920 it's good. Wasn't peppers? That's good? You know. Yeah, I 1:04:41.000 --> 1:04:43.439 didn't need I didn't need to be coerced and eating 1:04:43.440 --> 1:04:45.480 the sandwich. I would eat it. I was there because 1:04:45.480 --> 1:04:47.600 I knew what it was and I'm like, I'm down 1:04:47.680 --> 1:04:49.760 to try whatever and also taste really good. So what 1:04:49.960 --> 1:04:52.560 I don't give a ship what's in it? So is 1:04:52.560 --> 1:04:54.720 that what's the well? I think there's a number I 1:04:54.800 --> 1:04:56.600 know this is actually been This is a really I 1:04:56.640 --> 1:04:59.200 think it's a lot more complicated and I totally dig 1:04:59.440 --> 1:05:01.800 your I totally to get Let me just say I 1:05:01.880 --> 1:05:04.400 can acknowledge that there can be an aspect of this 1:05:04.480 --> 1:05:07.680 where do you think, wait, is this intentionally deceptive? So 1:05:08.120 --> 1:05:10.880 you have some person, let's imagine they wander in off 1:05:10.920 --> 1:05:13.240 the street and they don't know it's just because it 1:05:13.360 --> 1:05:16.280 looks it's a nice it's a nice restaurant. It's really nice. 1:05:16.480 --> 1:05:18.680 There's a lot of nice looking people in their nice 1:05:18.720 --> 1:05:20.880 looking people. They're not like I thought they might be 1:05:20.960 --> 1:05:22.720 a bunch of pale people can barely get out of 1:05:22.760 --> 1:05:27.160 their chairs. Well you know vegans, you know, they're just yeah. 1:05:27.200 --> 1:05:28.880 They I went in there with a bunch of beats, 1:05:28.880 --> 1:05:32.560 well pills, and nobody would take it. I go in 1:05:32.680 --> 1:05:34.760 there and I just it's like a very nice restaurant. 1:05:34.760 --> 1:05:37.360 It's like, go to this thing you would not and 1:05:37.480 --> 1:05:39.600 even to eat it. You're like, yeah, okay, this is 1:05:39.760 --> 1:05:41.840 like a kind of like a stake um back when 1:05:41.880 --> 1:05:45.560 I was a kid. Yeah, and so that's all there 1:05:45.680 --> 1:05:47.760 for what reason? You know? What's the facade? Yeah? And 1:05:47.840 --> 1:05:49.840 I think I think so let me just say I 1:05:49.920 --> 1:05:53.320 acknowledge that I can. I can totally get where someone 1:05:53.400 --> 1:05:56.960 might look at that and say, what the hell are you? 1:05:57.040 --> 1:05:59.640 Are you trying to like deceive people and make it right? 1:06:00.080 --> 1:06:02.400 But let me let me let me before you get on. Now. 1:06:02.600 --> 1:06:04.240 I think there's this is why I was thinking of 1:06:04.320 --> 1:06:06.720 what I was eating this chicken grinder, and it was 1:06:06.800 --> 1:06:09.760 like eating this and like this port wheat basted chicken. 1:06:11.080 --> 1:06:13.040 It was pozzitive to maybe laugh. But there's also a thing. 1:06:13.120 --> 1:06:15.240 There's a thing we do in hunting that we've discussed 1:06:15.280 --> 1:06:17.280 on the one Steve's podcast and this one as well. 1:06:17.440 --> 1:06:20.840 So it's like we we say harvested animal as as 1:06:21.000 --> 1:06:24.040 as a way as normenclature kind of too put up 1:06:24.280 --> 1:06:26.840 a facade for some people like I harvested that elt, 1:06:26.920 --> 1:06:30.040 but yeah you didn't, you killed it. You should say 1:06:30.080 --> 1:06:31.840 that you killed it. That's that's my belief. I think 1:06:31.840 --> 1:06:33.960 a lot of people use the term harvest to soften 1:06:35.240 --> 1:06:38.000 and activity. So my that's my wondering. I'm like, we 1:06:38.160 --> 1:06:40.880 do that in our world to kind of soften the 1:06:41.000 --> 1:06:44.920 blow of what's exactly going on here. I'm like, is 1:06:44.960 --> 1:06:48.080 this what they're doing? Are they trying to soften that 1:06:48.200 --> 1:06:50.800 it's a vegan place? So that's that's that's where I 1:06:50.880 --> 1:06:53.080 started in my own mind. So that's great, and I think, 1:06:53.600 --> 1:06:56.320 and Ben, I'm glad you brought that up because earlier 1:06:56.440 --> 1:06:58.600 we talked about the issue of like not living in 1:06:58.720 --> 1:07:02.680 bad faith, and I do think that I and I 1:07:02.760 --> 1:07:05.280 talk about this in other places where you know, using 1:07:05.320 --> 1:07:10.160 the word harvest it's a euphemism. Just let's just come 1:07:10.200 --> 1:07:13.960 out and say, like I agree, let's just say it's killing. 1:07:14.280 --> 1:07:17.280 Harvesting is a euphemism. For what's happening. It's killing. And 1:07:17.360 --> 1:07:20.000 I tell people, you know what I do, what I've 1:07:20.040 --> 1:07:21.880 done hundreds of times in my life, and what you 1:07:22.000 --> 1:07:23.800 do when you kill an animal. One of the first 1:07:23.880 --> 1:07:26.200 things that you do to dress it you cut its 1:07:26.240 --> 1:07:29.320 asshole out. I've cut out hundreds of assholes. Am I 1:07:29.360 --> 1:07:33.000 supposed to like just gloss over that. I'm ripping hearts 1:07:33.080 --> 1:07:36.240 out and I'm pulling, you know, intestines out, and I'm 1:07:36.440 --> 1:07:39.120 cutting tongues out to eat like that? Well, don't you 1:07:39.240 --> 1:07:40.920 maybe can you can come come up with a new 1:07:43.000 --> 1:07:47.960 you're your hold or you're removing that, You're you're disorganized. 1:07:50.640 --> 1:07:54.560 I like that, but disorganization. But yeah, but do I 1:07:54.640 --> 1:07:56.280 need to come up with I'm not comtab with words 1:07:56.320 --> 1:07:58.000 for those, and I'm just not talking about it like 1:07:58.080 --> 1:08:00.840 I'm harvesting the animals. You No, I'm shooting in. I'm 1:08:00.840 --> 1:08:02.760 walking over to it, I'm ripping its guts out, I'm 1:08:02.760 --> 1:08:05.800 cutting its asshole out, and I'm splitting its pelvis. I 1:08:05.960 --> 1:08:08.200 understand that, and I think the gritty nature of that 1:08:09.160 --> 1:08:12.800 helps me understand the animal, helps me understand what I'm 1:08:12.880 --> 1:08:15.560 doing in my partner process. So I feel that's important 1:08:15.600 --> 1:08:17.800 to see it and talk about it and not and 1:08:17.920 --> 1:08:21.200 not rip it away by saying oh harvest or or 1:08:21.560 --> 1:08:25.519 not talking about the gritty, bloody nature of being a hunter. 1:08:25.600 --> 1:08:28.519 I mean, is this it's unavoidable, So why I try 1:08:28.560 --> 1:08:31.120 to avoid it? No bad I I mean, that's that's 1:08:31.160 --> 1:08:34.120 you're not living in bad faith. And that's that's that's 1:08:34.160 --> 1:08:37.559 not common. But but going back to look, I think, 1:08:37.880 --> 1:08:39.840 let me just say, I think this is actually it's 1:08:39.880 --> 1:08:45.639 a little more complicated. The surface the surface critique. I understand. 1:08:45.640 --> 1:08:47.800 It's like you guys are just deceiving. It's not chicken 1:08:47.920 --> 1:08:52.400 call it, uh, you know, satan based or wheat bit right, 1:08:53.960 --> 1:08:56.240 But let me let me, let me try this. See 1:08:56.320 --> 1:08:59.160 see if what you think of this. I'm gonna pull 1:08:59.240 --> 1:09:02.639 up the picture I took of the men um. So yeah. 1:09:03.000 --> 1:09:06.880 So now here's a couple of things. So I don't 1:09:06.920 --> 1:09:09.439 know if you're familiar with there's a whole. There is 1:09:09.520 --> 1:09:13.240 an entire strand there are within the world of animal rights, philosophy, 1:09:13.520 --> 1:09:17.599 ethical theory, there's different strands. Now, there's a woman who 1:09:17.640 --> 1:09:20.360 wrote a book, um, she's a friend of mine, in 1:09:21.360 --> 1:09:24.800 very influential book called The Sexual Politics of Meat. Her 1:09:24.840 --> 1:09:28.559 name is Carol j Adams. She's she's she's big time. Now. 1:09:29.479 --> 1:09:32.880 She has an interesting theory about the relationship between I 1:09:32.960 --> 1:09:37.160 won't I won't even get into the sexualization and and 1:09:37.320 --> 1:09:42.280 sort of the the sexualization and feminization of food products 1:09:42.320 --> 1:09:44.400 and animal products. That that's not that's not the reason 1:09:44.439 --> 1:09:46.920 I'm bringing up her book. The reason I'm bringing up 1:09:46.960 --> 1:09:49.960 her book is because she she uses this really in 1:09:50.680 --> 1:09:54.400 important concept that she calls the absent reference. And this 1:09:54.560 --> 1:09:56.920 is where I think the answer to the chicken thing 1:09:57.040 --> 1:10:01.040 is going to be found in. So let's think about 1:10:03.080 --> 1:10:05.080 chicken is an interesting example. But let's go back to 1:10:05.160 --> 1:10:09.160 you mentioned steak. So steak is a dead cow, right, 1:10:09.640 --> 1:10:12.840 so you have so let's think about the production of 1:10:13.000 --> 1:10:15.080 this object. So you go to a restaurant, you order, 1:10:15.439 --> 1:10:18.280 you order this object. It has a name on the menu, steak. 1:10:18.640 --> 1:10:21.479 They bring it to your plate. It's cooked, it's dress, 1:10:21.560 --> 1:10:24.920 it's all nice, right, and and it smells great. Now 1:10:26.479 --> 1:10:29.280 that and this is Carol's work on the absent reference. 1:10:29.400 --> 1:10:33.880 That object there used to be a subject, used to 1:10:33.960 --> 1:10:36.760 be a living being who had a subjective life, who 1:10:36.840 --> 1:10:39.960 had experiences, who had joys, who had who you know 1:10:40.080 --> 1:10:45.760 as a cow and licked its baby in the sun 1:10:46.600 --> 1:10:49.200 right has had all these things. Right, So now we 1:10:49.280 --> 1:10:54.200 get this object that is an object of literal, literal consumption. 1:10:54.439 --> 1:10:57.639 It's it's it's purpose is to be consumed by humans. 1:10:58.400 --> 1:11:02.920 And so the the referent meaning the thing to which 1:11:03.040 --> 1:11:07.360 that steak refer the living thing that steak refers to 1:11:07.479 --> 1:11:10.479 the cow back earlier in the line, that cow is 1:11:10.640 --> 1:11:13.800 gone from the whole experience. Not only is the cow 1:11:14.000 --> 1:11:16.439 missing from the experience, it's not even called a cow, 1:11:16.479 --> 1:11:20.280 it's called something else. Right, So it's it's an invisifying 1:11:20.439 --> 1:11:23.320 or it's a wiping away of the subjectivity and the 1:11:23.479 --> 1:11:27.240 sentience of that original being. So so now you have 1:11:27.520 --> 1:11:29.680 this notion, say of like you go there in your 1:11:29.760 --> 1:11:32.559 order like a steak, and it's not really steak. Um. 1:11:33.720 --> 1:11:35.960 So when I talked to Carol, Carol and I haven't 1:11:36.000 --> 1:11:39.720 had a discussion about about uh. I mean, you know, 1:11:39.800 --> 1:11:41.680 you're you're out here in California. You're out here in 1:11:41.760 --> 1:11:45.639 the Bay Area. There's a woman named Miyoko, and Miyoko 1:11:45.800 --> 1:11:49.200 produces all vegan dairy products, and I gotta tell you 1:11:49.280 --> 1:11:51.880 they're really good. The vegan butter, Miyoko's vegan This is 1:11:51.880 --> 1:11:54.120 not a commercial I'm just telling you it's really good 1:11:54.200 --> 1:11:56.080 as as someone who's eating butter, you know, for many 1:11:56.200 --> 1:11:59.160 years and who stopped. So Carol and I were having 1:11:59.200 --> 1:12:02.840 this conversation and I said, she she said, oh, this 1:12:03.000 --> 1:12:07.880 Mioko's cheese is really she said Mioko's cheese and I said, 1:12:08.680 --> 1:12:11.160 sort of pejoratively. I was like, you mean, you know, 1:12:11.320 --> 1:12:14.840 like the fake cheese, and she said to me, no, 1:12:15.760 --> 1:12:19.519 it's cheese. The notion that cheese has to come from, 1:12:19.800 --> 1:12:22.920 you know, either a goat or like, like, we are 1:12:23.040 --> 1:12:27.160 actually upsetting the paradigm. So when we say this is cheese, 1:12:27.560 --> 1:12:29.960 what we're saying to you is we're trying to change 1:12:30.000 --> 1:12:32.599 the concept of what cheese is. So when you look 1:12:32.600 --> 1:12:34.720 at this object that it's made from, like coconut milt, 1:12:34.800 --> 1:12:37.920 however you know it's made in plant based, to call 1:12:38.000 --> 1:12:42.120 it fake cheese is too is to capitulate to the 1:12:42.479 --> 1:12:46.400 to the sort of species ist, anthropocentric paradigm that says 1:12:46.760 --> 1:12:49.160 cheese has to come from an animal goat, right, right, 1:12:49.560 --> 1:12:54.560 And so there's there's a kind of political act in saying, no, motherfucker, 1:12:54.720 --> 1:12:57.760 this is cheese. I'm calling it cheese. If you think 1:12:57.840 --> 1:13:02.559 cheese requires dairy that's welcome to the new world. Cheese 1:13:02.600 --> 1:13:05.360 doesn't have to be dairy. Of course, in response to 1:13:05.439 --> 1:13:09.360 things like Mioko, the dairy industry are trying all across 1:13:09.400 --> 1:13:12.519 the country right there, passing these labeling laws. You can't 1:13:12.560 --> 1:13:14.880 say this thing is cheese. You can't use the word 1:13:15.080 --> 1:13:17.840 even like soy milk. Right, you can't use the word milk. 1:13:18.120 --> 1:13:21.640 You have to say it's soy derivative. Right. So so 1:13:21.800 --> 1:13:24.559 now what I what I'm trying to what I'm trying 1:13:24.600 --> 1:13:30.719 to say here argue, is that calling that chicken thing chicken. 1:13:32.479 --> 1:13:34.439 You could see it as deceptive, but I think there's 1:13:34.439 --> 1:13:36.559 a deeper way to think of it. There's a way 1:13:36.600 --> 1:13:40.160 in which that's a political act to say this is 1:13:40.560 --> 1:13:44.400 this is chicken. You know, accepted baby, this is chicken. 1:13:44.439 --> 1:13:46.840 And you might want to go, no, it's deceptive. Chicken 1:13:46.960 --> 1:13:49.479 is this animal? And you go, no, this is also chicken. 1:13:49.520 --> 1:13:52.200 Because you see, when I go to a restaurant, I 1:13:52.360 --> 1:13:55.840 order a real chicken. That is an object that has 1:13:55.880 --> 1:13:58.640 been separated from the chicken. So so the fact that 1:13:58.680 --> 1:14:01.759 it carries the same word the chicken from the living 1:14:01.920 --> 1:14:04.960 being to the chicken on my plate. What I have 1:14:05.080 --> 1:14:08.360 on my plate is radically far away from the chicken. 1:14:08.439 --> 1:14:10.960 It's from the animal. And so I think part of 1:14:11.000 --> 1:14:12.559 what's going on, at least what I want to say 1:14:12.720 --> 1:14:15.920 is this is this is a this is a fuck 1:14:16.000 --> 1:14:18.519 you to the paradigm to say, welcome to the new 1:14:18.640 --> 1:14:21.920 vegan world. It's chicken, like it or not. It's not deceptive. 1:14:21.960 --> 1:14:25.960 It's meant to push you to rethink what chicken, what 1:14:26.200 --> 1:14:29.800 pork is So I think I think I think that's 1:14:29.800 --> 1:14:34.280 where it's comed very existential. Yeah, it is existential. It 1:14:34.439 --> 1:14:37.439 is it is forcing you to to confront what, what 1:14:37.600 --> 1:14:39.400 the hell? Why do I believe what I believe? And 1:14:39.640 --> 1:14:41.880 why do I think that chicken has to be that thing? 1:14:41.960 --> 1:14:44.559 And is that thing on my plate when I ordered 1:14:44.640 --> 1:14:47.160 when I go to a quote, you know, regular non 1:14:47.280 --> 1:14:52.080 vegan restaurant and I order a hamburger, No hamburger. Hamburger 1:14:52.320 --> 1:14:56.479 is most hamburger other than those that are you know, 1:14:57.560 --> 1:14:59.920 let's just say a vast man. The majority of ham 1:15:00.000 --> 1:15:04.880 burger come from cows who underwent stress and were slaughtered 1:15:05.320 --> 1:15:09.000 and in in suboptimal conditions. Despite with Temple grand And 1:15:09.040 --> 1:15:11.519 wants to say, and then they're ground up and they're 1:15:11.760 --> 1:15:15.479 put on a plate. That's what hamburger is, right, and 1:15:15.560 --> 1:15:18.320 so I get this object that I call hamburger. And 1:15:18.400 --> 1:15:21.519 what what your son wants to say is we have 1:15:21.600 --> 1:15:25.000 hamburgers too. They just don't. They don't. They're not. I 1:15:25.080 --> 1:15:27.519 don't I understand what you're saying. I would just say 1:15:27.640 --> 1:15:29.120 I would just tell them, like, yep, you got a 1:15:29.240 --> 1:15:32.479 very like that approach is very existential and probably hard 1:15:32.520 --> 1:15:35.599 for most people to pick up, or almost a possible 1:15:35.640 --> 1:15:37.240 just for the regular person to go in and pick 1:15:37.280 --> 1:15:41.639 all that existential, you know, meandering up what they would 1:15:41.680 --> 1:15:47.160 pick it up. You'f like chicken substitute or wheat based, 1:15:47.960 --> 1:15:50.840 you know, supposed to be chicken, saying like this is 1:15:50.880 --> 1:15:53.880 a replacement for what you normally Isn't this good? You know, 1:15:53.920 --> 1:15:57.720 it's like almost if you just said to me, if 1:15:57.760 --> 1:15:59.080 you if you came to me and he said, if 1:15:59.120 --> 1:16:00.920 you only have to eat this, if you would replace 1:16:01.000 --> 1:16:03.040 this with chicken, because I don't really eat a whole 1:16:03.080 --> 1:16:05.640 ton of chicken, because you know, my wife and I 1:16:05.760 --> 1:16:08.200 have a big argument at home because she would buy 1:16:08.200 --> 1:16:10.599 a chicken. I'm like, well, I don't want to don't 1:16:10.640 --> 1:16:12.720 buy a chicken at the store. That's not what we do. 1:16:12.880 --> 1:16:14.519 We eat wild game. That's all we eat at home, 1:16:14.600 --> 1:16:17.120 That's what we do. She's like, well, do you haven't 1:16:17.160 --> 1:16:22.519 killed enough you know, chickens, turkeys? Man, ye, do your job, 1:16:22.600 --> 1:16:25.639 You're fool. So I would say, okay, well, then next 1:16:25.720 --> 1:16:29.080 year I need to kill ten turkeys and on this 1:16:29.200 --> 1:16:31.479 many pheasants and this many quail to kind of offset 1:16:32.800 --> 1:16:35.800 that thing. But I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't. I would. 1:16:36.479 --> 1:16:37.960 I don't know if I can compare that, But that's 1:16:37.960 --> 1:16:42.400 just that's just me trying to say, I understand white 1:16:42.479 --> 1:16:44.800 meat is something that I'm going to consume, and I'm 1:16:44.800 --> 1:16:48.519 trying to change that up adversely to the restaurant. You're like, wow, 1:16:49.560 --> 1:16:52.040 if you just said this is a ken, this is 1:16:52.120 --> 1:16:55.360 a possibility to replace the chicken that you eat. Yeah, 1:16:55.400 --> 1:16:57.160 but hold on, hold on then so it's like there's 1:16:57.160 --> 1:17:00.080 a replacement theory there. I get it. But what I so, 1:17:00.320 --> 1:17:02.439 let me just clarify. I don't think I agree with you. 1:17:02.600 --> 1:17:05.200 You you said something interesting. You're like, look, the average 1:17:05.280 --> 1:17:07.680 person is not going to do these kind of like 1:17:07.960 --> 1:17:12.640 philosophical existential gymnastics. But what I want to say is 1:17:12.960 --> 1:17:17.160 that you don't have to, So so let me you 1:17:17.200 --> 1:17:19.320 don't have to go through this whole thought process. It's 1:17:19.360 --> 1:17:21.559 just a it can be seen as a political act. 1:17:21.840 --> 1:17:23.320 So let me let me give you an example. You 1:17:23.400 --> 1:17:25.639 mentioned that you have a small child, so let's fast 1:17:25.680 --> 1:17:28.320 forward thirty years. You have a son or a daughter son, 1:17:28.920 --> 1:17:30.760 So now your son is your age, she's is in 1:17:30.800 --> 1:17:33.760 the mid thirties, and and now he goes, hey want 1:17:33.800 --> 1:17:36.320 some chicken, and it's this stuff you ate at the 1:17:36.479 --> 1:17:40.200 at the butcher's son. And everyone says and then people go, 1:17:40.320 --> 1:17:43.200 like chicken, they used to eat those stickam in cages. 1:17:43.800 --> 1:17:47.360 So now look what Look at what has happened over time, 1:17:48.320 --> 1:17:50.280 and this has happened. This happens in a lot of 1:17:50.880 --> 1:17:56.519 justice movements, is that a term gets reappropriated and there's 1:17:56.560 --> 1:17:58.920 no reason, there's no politically, there's no reason to go 1:17:59.280 --> 1:18:02.080 this is a chicken and substitute because in the future, 1:18:02.240 --> 1:18:04.720 if that's what chicken is, that's what chicken becomes. And 1:18:04.760 --> 1:18:06.840 now look what you've done. If you're a vegan, right, 1:18:07.200 --> 1:18:11.400 you've you've maintained this the concept and the food thing, 1:18:11.560 --> 1:18:13.720 the concept of food to eating, and you've and you've 1:18:13.840 --> 1:18:17.519 decoupled it from that animal that's been suffering. So what 1:18:17.600 --> 1:18:18.920 I want to say is I don't think you need 1:18:19.000 --> 1:18:20.679 to do all that. All you gotta do is see 1:18:20.760 --> 1:18:23.679 it as they're trying to change there. They're subtly trying 1:18:23.720 --> 1:18:27.559 to change things. So in the future it's acceptable to say, hey, 1:18:27.560 --> 1:18:29.640 do you want some cheese and they bring out some 1:18:29.720 --> 1:18:32.479 whatever vegan cheese rather than going do you want some 1:18:32.640 --> 1:18:36.320 cheese substitute? At that point, you're saying this isn't real cheese, 1:18:36.360 --> 1:18:38.280 and they want to go No, dude, I'm not gonna 1:18:38.280 --> 1:18:40.080 I'm not gonna go down that road. Yeah, I would 1:18:40.080 --> 1:18:42.839 imagine like that. That seems like I say, I disagree 1:18:42.840 --> 1:18:44.320 with that. It seems weird to me, just for the 1:18:44.400 --> 1:18:46.559 same reason that harvest and kills seem weird, Like why 1:18:46.600 --> 1:18:48.559 don't we just say this is a substitute. We're trying 1:18:48.600 --> 1:18:51.000 to substitute this for chicken. We don't believe. We believe 1:18:51.040 --> 1:18:53.760 that the most chicken that you eat, or any chicken 1:18:53.840 --> 1:18:56.280 you're gonna eat, was killed and suffer, and no matter 1:18:56.360 --> 1:18:58.120 what you do, it can't free range, let it run 1:18:58.160 --> 1:18:59.559 around the yard, whatever you want to do. It had 1:18:59.600 --> 1:19:01.519 to suffer to get to your play. Kind of a 1:19:02.240 --> 1:19:04.720 it's kind of a thing that's based on vision like 1:19:04.800 --> 1:19:06.559 I didn't see it get here. It had to suffer 1:19:06.640 --> 1:19:09.280 to get here, right, And so I would like just 1:19:09.439 --> 1:19:11.400 say and I would sell the butcher son like if 1:19:11.560 --> 1:19:13.200 I think it would be just as effective just to 1:19:13.280 --> 1:19:15.760 say straight out. You don't have to say substitute, but 1:19:15.840 --> 1:19:19.799 you could just say wheat based sandwich. Or it's almost 1:19:19.840 --> 1:19:22.640 like to give up that you know your believe. I 1:19:22.760 --> 1:19:26.479 believe that no one should eat chicken ever. But I 1:19:26.560 --> 1:19:28.519 gotta be real subtle about it to get out of there. 1:19:28.560 --> 1:19:30.479 I gotta like, I gotta be real subtle to kind 1:19:30.520 --> 1:19:34.519 of like overtime change the meaning of the thing, rather 1:19:34.600 --> 1:19:36.760 than just being flat out honest with people, be like, 1:19:36.800 --> 1:19:39.599 don't eat the chicken, and let's let's have that. Let's 1:19:39.720 --> 1:19:42.840 let's you know, as you said, let's be fair and 1:19:43.040 --> 1:19:45.200 and and have good faith in our in the way 1:19:45.280 --> 1:19:47.600 we approach it, rather than subtly trying to move it 1:19:48.320 --> 1:19:50.080 to a point where there's a third year old person 1:19:50.120 --> 1:19:52.640 that doesn't understand what chicken used to be or what 1:19:52.800 --> 1:19:55.840 it is. It's kind of change in bad faith over time. 1:19:57.120 --> 1:19:59.160 Just tell me what it is. I don't care in fact, 1:19:59.439 --> 1:20:01.160 if it's good it's actually to me, It's like I 1:20:01.240 --> 1:20:02.760 could go home and tell my wife, you know what, 1:20:03.680 --> 1:20:08.080 instead of getting chicken, why don't we get this thing here? 1:20:08.120 --> 1:20:10.439 What is this grinder thing? Why don't we get the 1:20:10.479 --> 1:20:14.760 grinder and we'll vaccine that ship up and whenever and 1:20:14.880 --> 1:20:17.760 whenever I've been a terrible hunter and we run out 1:20:17.800 --> 1:20:22.600 of turkey, then we'll eat this for some the substitute 1:20:22.680 --> 1:20:24.599 that tastes like chicken. Our kid will love it. He'll 1:20:24.680 --> 1:20:26.719 never know. You won't have to go to the store 1:20:26.760 --> 1:20:28.920 and participate in factory. For me, I'm not going to 1:20:29.000 --> 1:20:31.400 feel bad as a shitty hunter, and we've got this 1:20:31.600 --> 1:20:34.280 thing here that can help us. And so I see 1:20:34.360 --> 1:20:35.880 when I'm eating that, I'm like, dude, you guys are 1:20:35.920 --> 1:20:38.960 missing the freaking point here, Like this is somebody like 1:20:39.080 --> 1:20:42.519 me who believes my consumption is very important. I would 1:20:42.560 --> 1:20:45.000 take part in the chicken grinder. Everything you know and 1:20:45.120 --> 1:20:49.559 some you know, some products, some vegan products. They for example, 1:20:49.680 --> 1:20:51.720 I don't I don't say the brand, but they have 1:20:52.000 --> 1:20:56.559 chicken patties. It's like c H I K. And right. 1:20:56.640 --> 1:21:01.040 So it's like it's like stopping chicken the thing because 1:21:01.080 --> 1:21:02.840 I would argue, like I said, I would argue as 1:21:02.840 --> 1:21:06.400 a mediator that I wouldn't much rather eat the vegan 1:21:06.520 --> 1:21:09.400 version of chicken as it stands now than eat actual chicken. 1:21:11.080 --> 1:21:14.799 It would be either wild turkey or a plant based replacement. 1:21:14.920 --> 1:21:17.080 That's cool. I love to eat plants. I eat them 1:21:17.120 --> 1:21:19.760 all the time, you know, So let's let's let's give 1:21:19.840 --> 1:21:22.000 me the chance to get at that. And it even 1:21:22.040 --> 1:21:23.920 removes my own kind of My wife would be like, well, 1:21:23.960 --> 1:21:26.120 that says chicken on it, Like it's not chicken. Then 1:21:26.120 --> 1:21:28.880 I have to explain the existential crisis. I'd much rather 1:21:28.960 --> 1:21:31.080 be like, this is some wheat ship or what a 1:21:31.240 --> 1:21:33.559 jackfruit or whatever it is. It tastes really good. You're 1:21:33.560 --> 1:21:36.040 not gonna worry about it. This is what a jackfruit is. 1:21:36.600 --> 1:21:38.760 Just eat it. And she's like, yeah, that's great. No, 1:21:38.880 --> 1:21:42.000 I get it. Yeah, And look, I'm with you. I 1:21:42.479 --> 1:21:44.840 see what you're saying. Again. I just think it's a 1:21:44.920 --> 1:21:47.040 way of seeing it as a political statement, as a 1:21:47.120 --> 1:21:50.760 subversive act. I think that, and I just don't. I 1:21:50.800 --> 1:21:53.080 don't think it's necessary. I would argue that like veganism 1:21:53.120 --> 1:21:55.080 in itself is like, it's not a bad thing, and 1:21:55.280 --> 1:21:57.840 especially in the way that you present it, says like, 1:21:57.960 --> 1:22:01.320 let's let's just embrace it in a way that because 1:22:01.320 --> 1:22:05.000 there's a lot of people like me that don't feel like, hmm, 1:22:05.280 --> 1:22:06.840 if you're trying to if you're telling me this is 1:22:06.840 --> 1:22:09.360 a chicken, what aren't what? Also aren't you telling me 1:22:09.840 --> 1:22:12.639 you know what other submersive things you're trying to get 1:22:12.680 --> 1:22:15.160 me to believe? You know, it seems seems just ingenuous. 1:22:15.680 --> 1:22:17.639 But I did enjoy to go back to the butcher. 1:22:17.680 --> 1:22:20.840 Sound great job on the chicken sandwich. I took, Yeah, 1:22:20.840 --> 1:22:22.200 I eat half of them. Took the other half of 1:22:22.200 --> 1:22:25.040 the hotel chickens are that sandwiches are so big you 1:22:25.520 --> 1:22:27.560 can giant I got. I was there not longer. I 1:22:27.640 --> 1:22:31.000 got the It was like a rubin, which I think 1:22:31.080 --> 1:22:33.639 is like I guess I had the menu people because 1:22:33.640 --> 1:22:35.519 people were like, what are you talking to? This is insane. 1:22:35.520 --> 1:22:37.599 I'm like, oh, it's not insane. It's good. It's actually good. 1:22:37.720 --> 1:22:39.920 If they would just say, like good food made of 1:22:40.000 --> 1:22:44.280 ship you don't normally eat. They are like hot garlic, lemon, chicken, pesto, 1:22:45.120 --> 1:22:51.760 pulled barbecue, pulled pork. That was like, uba, now you 1:22:51.800 --> 1:22:57.360 say that, you bab um. Hot roast beef. I didn't 1:22:57.360 --> 1:22:59.560 say what that is, and it doesn't even say what 1:22:59.600 --> 1:23:01.759 it is. It just says slice soured with grilled onions, 1:23:01.800 --> 1:23:03.719 little gem blood. It It says like all the ingredients, 1:23:03.760 --> 1:23:06.560 but not what the beef actually is. And that was 1:23:06.840 --> 1:23:09.599 confusing to me. I'm like, I just what is it? Right? 1:23:09.800 --> 1:23:11.560 Tell me? I'd love to because I'll be making it 1:23:11.600 --> 1:23:14.120 at home, you know, if I run out of if 1:23:14.400 --> 1:23:17.439 I miss an elk this year, I'll be I'll be eating. 1:23:17.479 --> 1:23:19.280 But if you if you went to a restaurant ben 1:23:19.360 --> 1:23:23.400 and and like a lot of people don't know. I 1:23:24.080 --> 1:23:26.479 once again, I'm just I'm kind of talking out my ask. 1:23:26.520 --> 1:23:28.200 But what I'm trying to say is there are people. 1:23:28.680 --> 1:23:32.280 There are people who don't know. Does everyone know that 1:23:32.439 --> 1:23:36.080 like beef is a cow and pork? I mean, I'm 1:23:36.120 --> 1:23:38.479 sure most people do. But what I'm getting at is 1:23:38.520 --> 1:23:40.040 if you go to a regular restaurant and says like 1:23:41.240 --> 1:23:44.519 all beef hot dog, does it say dead cow and 1:23:44.960 --> 1:23:47.439 you just go it's beef? Right? Yeah? I mean, but 1:23:47.479 --> 1:23:49.639 then you would say, like people are calling it beef 1:23:49.800 --> 1:23:52.479 to make a political statement. No, they're just that's what 1:23:52.600 --> 1:23:54.920 they call it. But I'm saying I agree with you. 1:23:55.000 --> 1:23:56.559 You're saying, Look, I'd like to know what the hell 1:23:56.640 --> 1:23:58.519 this thing is made of. And I think a lot 1:23:58.560 --> 1:24:00.920 of people that I present that to on Instagram or 1:24:01.040 --> 1:24:03.400 that too, like what is jack fruit? Is good? Can 1:24:03.439 --> 1:24:05.800 I cook with it? Could I if if I run 1:24:05.840 --> 1:24:08.240 out of venison, crack that thing open and have a 1:24:08.360 --> 1:24:12.040 nice venison facimile for dinner. I don't know. It's not 1:24:12.120 --> 1:24:14.560 on the menu. So that was It's just one of 1:24:14.600 --> 1:24:17.280 those other things that for me, it would make it 1:24:17.360 --> 1:24:20.479 more approachable for me, would make it less like you're 1:24:20.479 --> 1:24:23.840 trying to tell me make the statement, because if you're 1:24:23.880 --> 1:24:28.360 not totally wrong, And even in this conversation, I'm having 1:24:28.360 --> 1:24:30.760 a bit of like, oh I would eat that ship. 1:24:30.960 --> 1:24:34.200 I should figure out what that is because I only 1:24:34.280 --> 1:24:36.840 killed four turkeys this year and I was aiming to 1:24:36.880 --> 1:24:39.880 kill ten. So eventually, you know, even for me, my 1:24:39.960 --> 1:24:42.559 wife and I get like the preciousness of the meat. 1:24:42.640 --> 1:24:46.880 She we got a thing called an Insta pot. Yeah, man, 1:24:47.040 --> 1:24:49.120 the inst which I like. I like the Insta pot. 1:24:49.160 --> 1:24:50.679 I like that. I live in an age where Insta 1:24:50.760 --> 1:24:53.720 pots a thing. She put some turkey in the Insta pot. 1:24:54.000 --> 1:24:56.760 She has a little child run around, happened to forget 1:24:56.840 --> 1:24:59.720 it was in there, came out not so good, and 1:24:59.840 --> 1:25:01.760 she you and I always get mad at that. I 1:25:01.880 --> 1:25:03.800 can't help, but I have some anger towards that, And 1:25:03.880 --> 1:25:06.240 she's like, why are you so mad? Because I can't 1:25:06.479 --> 1:25:09.120 just go out and get that now, like that that 1:25:09.280 --> 1:25:12.120 was the thing that I can't replace, and so it 1:25:12.200 --> 1:25:15.320 becomes much more of a replucious, a precious thing. And 1:25:15.400 --> 1:25:18.880 if some real smart vegan at the butcher's son was like, hey, man, 1:25:19.400 --> 1:25:22.400 I have found a replacement and it tastes great, and 1:25:22.520 --> 1:25:24.400 your kids will eat it and your wife will eat it, 1:25:24.840 --> 1:25:27.360 and you don't have to participate in any kind of bullshit, 1:25:27.560 --> 1:25:31.800 per do. I'm like, okay, sweet, let's go put some 1:25:31.840 --> 1:25:35.000 peppers on it. Let's hit it. So that's something it was. 1:25:35.439 --> 1:25:36.920 I'm glad I went there, and I'm glad to have 1:25:37.000 --> 1:25:40.600 those conversations. Um, let's get it. Let's get to you know, 1:25:41.680 --> 1:25:44.160 more of your academic stuff and and some of the 1:25:44.240 --> 1:25:48.280 things that you said and um in the paper. And 1:25:48.400 --> 1:25:50.920 I think that, like I said, I'm reading a lot 1:25:50.960 --> 1:25:53.720 of this stuff. I'm like, man, there's a whole lot 1:25:53.800 --> 1:25:57.040 in here that I can get with. You went through 1:25:57.120 --> 1:25:58.880 in there and I said, it's been years since you've 1:25:58.880 --> 1:26:02.240 written this, but it kind of what you're stated support 1:26:02.320 --> 1:26:06.240 for vegan ethical veganism, and and kind of the reasons 1:26:06.400 --> 1:26:08.800 that you got there. And as I looked at it, 1:26:08.880 --> 1:26:12.760 it's a it's a man, it's weighty, it's heavy, you said, um, 1:26:14.280 --> 1:26:16.800 and you stated work that you support ethical visas as 1:26:16.920 --> 1:26:23.960 empowering response to the cost in terms of violence, suffering, exploitation, domination, objectification, 1:26:24.120 --> 1:26:27.519 commodification of animals for food, the destruction of the environment, 1:26:27.640 --> 1:26:29.840 the placement of animals in the process, as well as 1:26:29.880 --> 1:26:31.920 the cost of our own health and the health of 1:26:31.960 --> 1:26:34.760 the planet. Then these things call for media affect them 1:26:34.840 --> 1:26:38.920 decisive action at the personal, collective, and policy levels. I mean, 1:26:39.000 --> 1:26:43.599 that's who wrote I wrote that cheese was a good day. 1:26:44.520 --> 1:26:46.200 I mean, that's like to read that. I read that 1:26:46.439 --> 1:26:50.200 like yeah, I mean, I yeah, I'm I'm with you. 1:26:50.920 --> 1:26:53.080 There's not a whole lot that I can pull back 1:26:53.120 --> 1:26:55.160 from in that, Like I want all the things that 1:26:55.360 --> 1:26:57.360 that you want to talk. As I said, it's been 1:26:57.400 --> 1:26:59.719 a while since that was those words were strung together, 1:26:59.800 --> 1:27:03.519 but imagine that's still typifying. Yeah, no, I haven't. I haven't. 1:27:05.320 --> 1:27:08.799 So just talk about that the whole of what moves 1:27:08.880 --> 1:27:11.760 you to this, because we know now that you've eat meat, 1:27:11.800 --> 1:27:14.840 you've hunted and done things, killed things, And I just 1:27:15.080 --> 1:27:17.760 this that that paragraph was was was powerful to me 1:27:17.920 --> 1:27:21.080 to read. Well, I think, first of all, as far 1:27:21.200 --> 1:27:26.040 as I think, the motivation for ethical veganism, for most 1:27:26.200 --> 1:27:29.720 of us who are ethical vegans, is that we have 1:27:29.880 --> 1:27:39.400 a desire two two um decrease unnecessary suffering in the world. So, 1:27:40.640 --> 1:27:42.960 you know, I walk, you know, whatever lifespan I have, 1:27:43.200 --> 1:27:47.560 I have this kind of footprint I leave and hopefully 1:27:47.720 --> 1:27:51.160 I can be as I can be, as as low 1:27:51.280 --> 1:27:53.880 impact as as I as possible. Of course, none of 1:27:53.920 --> 1:27:57.000 this is perfect, right, Like I drove here, it's not, 1:27:57.120 --> 1:27:59.360 and it's not somethingly back clean like I drove here 1:27:59.400 --> 1:28:02.040 today to meet you. How many insects I must have 1:28:02.160 --> 1:28:04.679 killed hundreds of them on the freeway. So I'm killing 1:28:04.800 --> 1:28:08.519 just driving here. I have an automobile, it's using fossil 1:28:08.560 --> 1:28:10.559 fuel and so so. So this is what I say 1:28:10.600 --> 1:28:12.720 in the paper, what Laurie and I say, is that 1:28:13.800 --> 1:28:18.800 we're all involved in this, in this endeavor of destruction. 1:28:19.240 --> 1:28:22.840 Now does that mean that I just throw up my hands, 1:28:22.920 --> 1:28:25.479 go fuck it, it doesn't matter. Just eat whatever you want, 1:28:25.600 --> 1:28:29.840 Just drive freaking fly everywhere, right, No, it doesn't mean that, right, 1:28:30.560 --> 1:28:35.439 So they're the connection. So if if I'm motivated by 1:28:35.560 --> 1:28:38.880 this kind of imperative to say, I want to be 1:28:39.320 --> 1:28:42.519 as gentle as I can, I want to cause as 1:28:42.720 --> 1:28:46.519 little suffering as possible, if it's possible, whatever I can 1:28:46.600 --> 1:28:50.960 do whenever I make decisions, especially as a consumer in 1:28:51.240 --> 1:28:54.160 you know, affluent in an affluent you know, the most 1:28:54.240 --> 1:28:59.080 affluent country in on the planet in history. Um, what 1:28:59.240 --> 1:29:03.200 kind of choice can I make that will reflect, um, 1:29:03.640 --> 1:29:08.639 the ethic of of of you know, non mouth feasance 1:29:08.680 --> 1:29:12.400 of of decreasing suffering. When I look at the way 1:29:12.439 --> 1:29:17.679 that food is produced, particularly with regard to animal based food, 1:29:19.040 --> 1:29:22.720 as I mentioned in there, what I see is on 1:29:22.960 --> 1:29:27.400 so many levels there's so much suffering and there's so 1:29:27.560 --> 1:29:33.599 much destruction. The animals themselves are as I mentioned there, 1:29:34.000 --> 1:29:38.400 there's violence involved. And I'll use chickens as as an 1:29:38.400 --> 1:29:40.320 example since we were talking about chicken. I mean, chicken 1:29:40.600 --> 1:29:44.280 are the most abused animals on the planet. The number 1:29:44.320 --> 1:29:47.760 of chickens, it's hard to wrap your mind around. Just 1:29:48.360 --> 1:29:52.120 in the United States, there's about nine billion chickens, right, 1:29:52.160 --> 1:29:55.719 so more than the entire population of the Earth planetary wise, 1:29:55.800 --> 1:29:59.719 it's like forty billion chickens. These are annual you know figures. 1:30:00.439 --> 1:30:05.080 So the way the chickens are treated is abominable. There's 1:30:05.120 --> 1:30:08.960 no no one who has a heart whatever wish that 1:30:09.160 --> 1:30:12.439 upon a sentient being. Right, So when I say that 1:30:12.840 --> 1:30:18.840 there's violence involved, there's domination involved. There is commodification, right, 1:30:18.960 --> 1:30:22.000 commodification meaning that And this goes to what we talked 1:30:22.000 --> 1:30:23.800 about a little bit earlier. It's like the being, the 1:30:23.960 --> 1:30:27.600 sentient being, the you know, chickens are and and and 1:30:27.680 --> 1:30:30.240 this is what I I I'd like to think. You know, 1:30:30.360 --> 1:30:32.800 we think like, oh, chickens are not that smart, but 1:30:33.600 --> 1:30:36.360 but ben just think about all the all the organisms 1:30:36.439 --> 1:30:39.040 that live on the planet Earth. Right, There's like micro organisms, 1:30:39.040 --> 1:30:41.960 there's little things that live on like our eyelids, and 1:30:42.040 --> 1:30:45.280 then there's like human beings right in the grand scheme, 1:30:45.400 --> 1:30:49.559 there's like carrots and grass. Chickens are pretty fucking smart, right, 1:30:49.600 --> 1:30:51.840 I mean, like compared to all that ship right, like 1:30:52.000 --> 1:30:56.560 treating Okay, well, they can be ruthless. Um, you know, 1:30:56.800 --> 1:31:00.000 I don't know who would be the most ruthless species. 1:31:00.120 --> 1:31:03.920 We could probably have a debate about that where um 1:31:04.400 --> 1:31:07.600 but uh or a discussion but but but anyway. So 1:31:08.280 --> 1:31:12.200 my point is that, um, the chickens are commodified, and 1:31:12.280 --> 1:31:14.640 that they're turned into command they're turned into things to 1:31:14.720 --> 1:31:19.000 be there's there. Their sole value is the value they 1:31:19.040 --> 1:31:22.120 have in in markets to to create profits and stuff 1:31:22.160 --> 1:31:26.759 like this. So that process of taking a living sentient 1:31:26.920 --> 1:31:31.560 being and and dominating it, and and and perpetrating a 1:31:31.640 --> 1:31:35.240 kind of violence against it and co modifying it, that 1:31:35.479 --> 1:31:39.160 just doesn't align with my values of wanting to walk 1:31:39.240 --> 1:31:43.360 on the earth and decreased suffering. So with that aspect, 1:31:43.600 --> 1:31:46.880 I feel like I just don't want to take that 1:31:47.280 --> 1:31:52.080 chicken into my body. It's it's not something that I 1:31:52.200 --> 1:31:56.320 could even bring myself to do. Does it taste good? 1:31:56.520 --> 1:31:59.560 Have I eaten millions of pounds of chick? Yeah? Is 1:31:59.600 --> 1:32:02.479 it the Yeah? But that's not the point right now 1:32:03.840 --> 1:32:08.439 with regard to that yet passage that you read that system, 1:32:08.600 --> 1:32:12.080 that the system that produces that chicken, let's say that 1:32:12.280 --> 1:32:14.559 brings it to the table at the restaurant or brings 1:32:14.600 --> 1:32:19.920 it to the supermarket. That system, in my estimation, speaking 1:32:19.960 --> 1:32:24.120 of pretty is ruthless. It's it's it's ruthless. The the 1:32:24.520 --> 1:32:28.280 there's it's at the expense of not only the health 1:32:28.360 --> 1:32:30.960 of the planet, but our personal health. Right. So you 1:32:31.040 --> 1:32:33.920 have this industry that's producing in the United States nine 1:32:34.000 --> 1:32:40.400 billion chickens a year, polluting our water, um, polluting our air. 1:32:40.479 --> 1:32:43.160 It's one of the one of the highest fossil fuel 1:32:43.439 --> 1:32:48.559 producing products is animal products, right, And and and draining 1:32:48.600 --> 1:32:53.880 the actifers aquifers um increasing antibiotic resistant uh you know, 1:32:54.160 --> 1:32:58.679 um organisms. So so then I look and I'm like, wait, 1:32:59.200 --> 1:33:02.280 this isn't only a about me feeling like I don't 1:33:02.320 --> 1:33:05.160 want to cause suffering to that chicken because I want 1:33:05.160 --> 1:33:07.960 to be as nonviolent as possible. But here I am 1:33:08.479 --> 1:33:12.639 contributing to the destruction of the planet. I'm like, wow, 1:33:12.760 --> 1:33:17.559 So my consumer choices as as as a as a consumer, 1:33:17.600 --> 1:33:19.880 even if I'm a vegan, right, this will anyone who's 1:33:19.880 --> 1:33:21.760 a consumer has to have this kind of at least 1:33:21.760 --> 1:33:23.960 I believe, has to have this kind of mindset. And 1:33:24.040 --> 1:33:28.680 then there's issues of health and and and I know 1:33:28.800 --> 1:33:31.120 I we haven't talked about this, but I know you, 1:33:31.600 --> 1:33:33.080 I know you're going to agree with this. It's like, 1:33:34.280 --> 1:33:37.720 just just take human beings, Homo sapiens, who we've been 1:33:37.760 --> 1:33:39.240 here a quarter of a million years, which is a 1:33:39.320 --> 1:33:42.640 blink blink in the eye of the eye in in 1:33:42.840 --> 1:33:47.080 in geologic time, and then like how long have we 1:33:47.240 --> 1:33:50.000 been eating ship? Like we rip open a plastic thing 1:33:50.040 --> 1:33:52.040 and eat this shin and throw it and then go 1:33:52.200 --> 1:33:54.280 to this store and get this Like that's gotta be 1:33:54.600 --> 1:33:56.600 a hundred years or so. Well, it's the way it 1:33:56.640 --> 1:33:59.280 breaks down, is it. I think it's like a hundred thousand. 1:34:00.560 --> 1:34:02.280 I always get just number. I'm pretty sure it's I 1:34:02.320 --> 1:34:04.960 always think it's crazy to think of, but hundred thousand 1:34:05.040 --> 1:34:09.200 generations of people lived as hunter gatherers. Then you get 1:34:09.240 --> 1:34:12.920 into the industrial revolution, basically there's about two or three 1:34:12.960 --> 1:34:15.960 generations there, and then processed foods, there's about two or 1:34:16.040 --> 1:34:18.400 three generations in there. There's a lot of play, I'm 1:34:18.439 --> 1:34:21.360 sure in that in that run. But that's that's what's 1:34:21.520 --> 1:34:24.200 that's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with the matriculation 1:34:24.280 --> 1:34:27.639 of time. Like all the time we were one thing 1:34:28.200 --> 1:34:32.360 and now we've found ourselves and only six versions of people, 1:34:33.400 --> 1:34:36.439 so far away from the thing we always were, that 1:34:37.520 --> 1:34:40.360 there's so many luxuries that we just never had and 1:34:40.520 --> 1:34:43.200 so remove from our own humanity in so many ways, 1:34:43.280 --> 1:34:45.000 not just the way we eat, but all the things 1:34:46.240 --> 1:34:49.360 that it's you know, it's strange to think of these crises, 1:34:49.560 --> 1:34:53.160 crises and you know, and you know, self identity like 1:34:53.240 --> 1:34:55.479 what are we and why are we here? And you know, 1:34:55.600 --> 1:34:57.599 and so for me, that's led to a lot of things. 1:34:57.680 --> 1:35:00.360 But I'll tell you what I mean, Honey, hunting led 1:35:00.400 --> 1:35:02.840 me to garden. I never gardened before I was before 1:35:02.880 --> 1:35:04.720 I hunted, and I I was looking like that, that's 1:35:04.760 --> 1:35:07.479 cool to know where that came from. Boy, I better? 1:35:08.400 --> 1:35:10.519 Why am I? Why would I be so involved in 1:35:10.600 --> 1:35:14.120 knowing where this piece of steak came from and then 1:35:14.280 --> 1:35:16.479 not know where that carrot came from or not know 1:35:17.400 --> 1:35:20.120 you know, and hopefully you know why was my wife 1:35:20.160 --> 1:35:22.080 and I are done having children, will have chickens and 1:35:22.160 --> 1:35:25.599 other things that helped to mitigate those things. So it's 1:35:25.640 --> 1:35:27.880 kind of led me down the path of isn't it 1:35:27.960 --> 1:35:31.840 hypocritical for me to, you know, do this, like to say, 1:35:31.920 --> 1:35:33.360 hold up my hand and be like, look at my meat. 1:35:33.439 --> 1:35:35.120 I know where that came from, and then ate grass 1:35:35.160 --> 1:35:38.280 when that ridge over there? And but but this carrot funk, 1:35:38.320 --> 1:35:40.720 I don't know? You know? Or this you know? This 1:35:41.479 --> 1:35:44.400 macaray and cheese I don't know. And so as you're 1:35:44.439 --> 1:35:48.559 saying I mean, there's just something about knowing that we're 1:35:48.800 --> 1:35:50.679 the engines of consumption. We wake up in the morning, 1:35:50.720 --> 1:35:55.040 we just consume. We consume the air, consume everything. Um. 1:35:55.360 --> 1:35:57.519 And there's layers to our consumption. If you can peel 1:35:57.520 --> 1:35:59.439 back a few of the shitty layers or your consumption 1:35:59.479 --> 1:36:02.400 and get down to the raw form of what you're eating, 1:36:02.800 --> 1:36:05.920 why wouldn't you? It is my question, because it seems 1:36:05.960 --> 1:36:10.680 fucking lazy, not supposed to cut anymore? People don't were 1:36:10.680 --> 1:36:14.559 you cousin, I wouldn't even pay because I've heard your part. 1:36:14.640 --> 1:36:16.560 I know, I told I was told recently that that. 1:36:18.160 --> 1:36:20.120 But I I think I got kids. I probably shouldn't 1:36:20.120 --> 1:36:23.200 say for it, but um, it'll take me a while 1:36:23.240 --> 1:36:26.240 to get out of it. But anyway, fuck it. Um 1:36:27.400 --> 1:36:30.800 we're like, that's that's the type of being that we are, 1:36:31.000 --> 1:36:34.400 Like we've are. We've reached a point now and intellectually 1:36:34.439 --> 1:36:36.280 where we can kind of start peeling back the layers 1:36:36.320 --> 1:36:39.120 of our consumption where when we were hunter gatherers we 1:36:39.160 --> 1:36:42.400 didn't have the luxury to peel back those layers. And 1:36:42.520 --> 1:36:45.120 so there's And I told our animal rights folks the 1:36:45.160 --> 1:36:47.400 other day, I said, I think history is progressive, and 1:36:47.439 --> 1:36:49.280 I think I don't think that I know, and I 1:36:49.360 --> 1:36:52.760 just I've read it that I've experienced it and seeing that, 1:36:54.400 --> 1:36:57.120 you know, the progressive idea, let's move past slavery, let's 1:36:57.160 --> 1:36:59.920 move past you know, Jim Crow, Let's move like we've 1:37:00.520 --> 1:37:03.320 we eventually get there. So there's it is a part 1:37:03.360 --> 1:37:07.040 of me that wonders whether and Steve openly wondered it 1:37:07.080 --> 1:37:09.040 in Stars in the Sky documentary you were part of. 1:37:09.200 --> 1:37:11.599 Is is there a time we moved past this hunting 1:37:11.720 --> 1:37:16.240 thing or or is it so barbaric? I would argue 1:37:16.280 --> 1:37:20.160 this like it's not, in my opinion, like there's barbaric 1:37:20.280 --> 1:37:22.960 parts of it, but it's intent is not barbaria um 1:37:23.400 --> 1:37:24.840 and it has a lot of it does a lot 1:37:24.920 --> 1:37:28.040 of good for for wild life. So I think that's 1:37:28.640 --> 1:37:30.360 that's probably where we should get to next. Like when 1:37:30.400 --> 1:37:32.880 you think of hunting, you know, well, we could probably 1:37:32.920 --> 1:37:35.280 get together and whack factory farms over the head all that. 1:37:36.160 --> 1:37:40.800 In fact fruit In fact, I said yesterday that I 1:37:40.880 --> 1:37:43.760 just I've always founded hilarious if he would go to 1:37:43.800 --> 1:37:47.360 like a Chick fil A and inside the bag is 1:37:47.400 --> 1:37:50.679 a dead chicken. Part this there's some thing you pulled 1:37:50.720 --> 1:37:56.760 off a chicken on the bag? Is it cartoon chicken? Like? 1:37:57.040 --> 1:38:00.600 What like if we yeah, like a chicken, it's like, Hi, 1:38:00.800 --> 1:38:03.519 what's up? And they have like these cartoon cows that 1:38:03.560 --> 1:38:06.880 are saying eat more chicken? Like, are we so divorced 1:38:07.080 --> 1:38:09.960 from the idea of what that thing is that we 1:38:10.040 --> 1:38:15.760 would one likes make it into a cartoon? I get 1:38:15.880 --> 1:38:17.880 I get that. Why would we put it on the 1:38:17.920 --> 1:38:19.760 outside of the bag where the dead chicken is. We 1:38:19.920 --> 1:38:23.880 must not understand or or or or we might un 1:38:24.280 --> 1:38:26.679 we Again, this can go back to the bad faith 1:38:26.800 --> 1:38:32.000 is it's it's uncomfortable. And so by employing things like 1:38:32.120 --> 1:38:35.080 cartoons are having the cows on the billboards saying eat 1:38:35.120 --> 1:38:38.360 more chicken, we can laugh at it. But I think 1:38:39.000 --> 1:38:43.679 the laughing um if the lies this this other level 1:38:43.840 --> 1:38:49.840 of discomfort because in most people know, you don't have 1:38:50.000 --> 1:38:52.080 a chicken who was you know, running around in a 1:38:52.240 --> 1:38:54.800 yard like in the old you know, right, So I 1:38:54.920 --> 1:38:57.960 think I think it diffused. There's something about the making 1:38:58.040 --> 1:39:02.000 it into humor, you know, trying and attempt what I 1:39:02.040 --> 1:39:04.800 would call a sick and twisted attempt at humor is 1:39:05.640 --> 1:39:09.040 is to diffuse the you know the kind of cognitive 1:39:09.040 --> 1:39:12.120 dissonance or that. But anyway, yeah, so yeah, I think 1:39:12.320 --> 1:39:14.519 it's you know, we agree on that and yeah, just 1:39:14.640 --> 1:39:17.320 to put the closure on this is before we move 1:39:17.400 --> 1:39:19.840 to the next thing, is um. Yes, So when I 1:39:19.880 --> 1:39:24.360 think about veganism and I see the interconnectedness between the 1:39:24.520 --> 1:39:28.800 individual animals suffering and dominated, and it's it's violence and 1:39:28.920 --> 1:39:32.879 and the commodification and then the degradation of the environment 1:39:33.040 --> 1:39:37.360 with industrial food production and animal agriculture, and then the 1:39:37.560 --> 1:39:40.360 health aspects and then walking into a store and ripping 1:39:40.400 --> 1:39:42.960 open a thing and throw on the It's like we 1:39:43.160 --> 1:39:47.960 are so we have we as human beings are so 1:39:48.240 --> 1:39:53.400 far away from anything that is would be considered um, 1:39:54.240 --> 1:39:57.280 I would say, like nonviolent or peaceful. There's there's aspects 1:39:57.360 --> 1:40:00.720 of all of this consumption that aren't just sucking ship up. 1:40:01.160 --> 1:40:02.800 And so what I what I want to argue in 1:40:02.880 --> 1:40:07.680 that paper is as a vegan, every opportunity I can 1:40:08.400 --> 1:40:11.600 within reason, right, I want to try to decrease my 1:40:11.920 --> 1:40:16.519 my suffering impact, you can't and realistically, and this is 1:40:16.560 --> 1:40:19.360 one of the things that some philosophers argue is a problem, right, 1:40:19.479 --> 1:40:22.680 is like they call it it's too demanding. So if 1:40:22.720 --> 1:40:25.519 you really want to live like this, How could you 1:40:25.600 --> 1:40:28.479 even like move out of this little room because I'm 1:40:28.520 --> 1:40:31.160 gonna walk out there, I'm gonna maybe step on in it. 1:40:31.360 --> 1:40:33.600 Like anything I do at some point is going to 1:40:33.640 --> 1:40:35.720 interact with some kind of suffering and cause some kind 1:40:35.760 --> 1:40:38.080 of suffering. But I don't think. And this is the 1:40:38.160 --> 1:40:42.240 thing is veganism is not to me as I mentioned, 1:40:42.360 --> 1:40:45.560 as you know reading the paper, It's not about perfection. 1:40:46.479 --> 1:40:48.840 There is a notion like people will say like, oh, 1:40:48.920 --> 1:40:51.800 you're not really vegan because you take antibiotics. But no 1:40:51.920 --> 1:40:54.639 one says, no one, no one at least who's thoughtful 1:40:54.640 --> 1:41:01.280 about veganism, says that veganism is is perfectly withdrawing yourself 1:41:01.360 --> 1:41:03.600 from the cycle of death and suffering. No one's saying that. 1:41:04.360 --> 1:41:08.080 Veganism to me is saying again, is how can I 1:41:09.000 --> 1:41:14.400 how can I decrease unnecessary suffering? Right? So so, so 1:41:14.840 --> 1:41:17.519 I accept that there's going to be suffering and death 1:41:17.680 --> 1:41:21.439 caused by my choices. I just happen to think that 1:41:22.320 --> 1:41:27.800 by by not contributing directly two animal suffering, as you say, 1:41:27.880 --> 1:41:31.000 we can we can beat up um factory farming for days. 1:41:31.680 --> 1:41:35.600 But but by not contributing to that, I have a 1:41:35.720 --> 1:41:38.280 lighter footprint now when it comes to what you're mentioning 1:41:38.320 --> 1:41:43.280 with regard to hunting, and this has always struck me 1:41:43.360 --> 1:41:44.840 this way, and it's not I don't think it's different 1:41:44.840 --> 1:41:47.120 with the way that you think of veganism in the 1:41:47.200 --> 1:41:49.240 way maybe the way I think of hunting, maybe the 1:41:49.240 --> 1:41:51.000 way I think a hunting is different than other folks. 1:41:51.200 --> 1:41:52.920 But what with what you just said and what you 1:41:53.040 --> 1:41:56.840 just kind of described is veganism from you? For me? 1:41:57.000 --> 1:41:58.920 You could take the word veganism, remove it from all 1:41:58.960 --> 1:42:00.559 the things you just said, put the hunting in there 1:42:00.600 --> 1:42:03.800 and be the same damn thing. And and it just 1:42:03.960 --> 1:42:05.560 the way that I think of hunting I think of 1:42:06.680 --> 1:42:10.200 And it's almost as if veganism would be if we 1:42:10.360 --> 1:42:13.560 started back to back agreeing in the way that I 1:42:13.640 --> 1:42:15.680 think we agree. I don't know if you if you 1:42:16.000 --> 1:42:19.360 will see if we agree, And like what you said, 1:42:21.160 --> 1:42:24.960 my my feeling about hunting now in like the modern sense, 1:42:24.960 --> 1:42:27.720 because I can't go back and be a subsistence hunter. 1:42:28.280 --> 1:42:30.720 One of my goals in life is trying to understand that, really, 1:42:30.960 --> 1:42:35.040 really and truly, but I can't. So I think of 1:42:35.120 --> 1:42:37.479 if we started back to back and we understood the 1:42:37.640 --> 1:42:40.080 reasons why we would go and do a thing, you know, 1:42:40.200 --> 1:42:44.920 I'm I'm I feel by killing one elk, I am 1:42:45.280 --> 1:42:49.160 not only participating in there being more elk, but participating 1:42:49.200 --> 1:42:52.200 in less cows dying. Right Like if I went and 1:42:52.320 --> 1:42:54.840 just want to the I just went to the store 1:42:54.880 --> 1:42:56.479 and bought a steak, I get, you know, a hundred 1:42:56.520 --> 1:42:59.320 and twenty pounds of meat ish off of al If 1:42:59.360 --> 1:43:00.840 I kill a moose, it's more than that, you know, 1:43:01.080 --> 1:43:03.640 So I can I can make that into sausage. I 1:43:03.680 --> 1:43:06.600 can make So that's all the sausage. I don't have 1:43:06.640 --> 1:43:08.960 to go to the storm vibe. And I'm also understanding 1:43:09.000 --> 1:43:11.560 that I take part in this this great system that 1:43:11.680 --> 1:43:15.640 we've set up. It's it's one of the fallacies. And 1:43:15.680 --> 1:43:19.400 the hunting logic is it's not it's not voluntary. If 1:43:19.439 --> 1:43:21.680 you want to hunt, you gotta pay. And it's so 1:43:22.160 --> 1:43:24.960 it's not altruistic. You're just taking part in the process. 1:43:25.000 --> 1:43:27.000 But the process leads to something good. So I think 1:43:27.040 --> 1:43:29.679 of it is if we were standing back to back 1:43:30.360 --> 1:43:32.360 and both understanding, like we want to do good, we 1:43:32.479 --> 1:43:35.120 want to decrease suffering, we want to decrease these like 1:43:35.240 --> 1:43:39.519 exploitative ways of our world. And this disconnection from what 1:43:39.800 --> 1:43:43.920 we really are on this planet, and maybe disconnecting ourselves 1:43:43.960 --> 1:43:47.200 from ourselves a little bit around impact that I'm walking 1:43:47.280 --> 1:43:50.639 backwards and you're walking forwards. It's like I'm walking back 1:43:50.760 --> 1:43:55.320 towards our humanity for millions of years, and back towards 1:43:55.400 --> 1:43:58.360 community with nature and being a part of this, being 1:43:58.400 --> 1:44:02.160 a real and tangible part of the natural world, in 1:44:02.240 --> 1:44:04.760 the circle of life, in the predator and prey relationship, 1:44:05.600 --> 1:44:08.400 and just taking part in that as a way to 1:44:08.479 --> 1:44:11.599 kind of walk back and to also escape the same 1:44:11.640 --> 1:44:13.599 thing you're trying to escape. I'm just walking back towards 1:44:13.640 --> 1:44:15.880 what I what we used to be. You're just walking 1:44:15.960 --> 1:44:19.200 forward to something we never were. And as we get 1:44:19.280 --> 1:44:22.200 further away from each other, that's where we can't never 1:44:22.360 --> 1:44:23.720 we forget to turn and look back and be like, hey, 1:44:23.760 --> 1:44:26.400 remember where we started, Remember where we started in that 1:44:26.520 --> 1:44:29.920 same spot where we're both like, we don't like exploitation, 1:44:30.000 --> 1:44:32.640 we don't like commodification, we don't like each ship that 1:44:32.680 --> 1:44:35.400 came out of some weird plastic thing and throwing the 1:44:35.439 --> 1:44:37.519 thing away and not understanding what's going in our mouth. 1:44:37.640 --> 1:44:40.519 And I don't like I don't like knowing that I'm 1:44:40.520 --> 1:44:42.960 being tricked by the chicken people, Like I don't want 1:44:43.000 --> 1:44:46.560 the chicken people to trick me. Fuck then, um, And 1:44:46.680 --> 1:44:50.559 so that's that's I described that to this dude, Um, 1:44:51.439 --> 1:44:54.439 Simon Roosevelt, who is I think the great grandson of 1:44:54.560 --> 1:44:57.240 Theodore Roosevelt, just doing a random phone call that out 1:44:57.280 --> 1:44:59.080 he was on and I said this kind of thing, 1:44:59.160 --> 1:45:02.800 and he's like, I wrote that down. I was like, ship, 1:45:03.560 --> 1:45:06.600 this means It's like, that's a smart guy. And so 1:45:06.680 --> 1:45:09.640 I've held onto that because of that affirmation that that 1:45:09.800 --> 1:45:12.400 that there's this idea that that's what we're doing, you know. 1:45:12.720 --> 1:45:15.000 And so that's why I respect the ship out of vegans. 1:45:15.640 --> 1:45:17.639 Even if that v and be like, you know, quit 1:45:18.160 --> 1:45:20.040 quit doing what you're doing it like, yeah, I still 1:45:20.120 --> 1:45:24.000 respect the idea and I won't remove you know, my 1:45:24.120 --> 1:45:26.240 respect for that idea won't be removed no matter what 1:45:26.560 --> 1:45:29.280 if you you know, if family Anderson throws blow to 1:45:29.400 --> 1:45:33.280 me or not, I don't. I still think there's right 1:45:33.360 --> 1:45:34.760 in both of them and you're just kind of doing 1:45:34.800 --> 1:45:38.040 different things. Well, Ben, I do think that that metaphor, 1:45:38.200 --> 1:45:40.080 I have to say, that's pretty brilliant. Like when as 1:45:40.120 --> 1:45:43.160 you were describing starting together and then walking in these 1:45:43.200 --> 1:45:46.160 different directions that really I'm in fact, I'm gonna I'm 1:45:46.160 --> 1:45:50.360 gonna write that down. Uh, but yeah, I think, well, 1:45:50.840 --> 1:45:53.679 just a quick note Pam Anderson, she just gets naked 1:45:53.720 --> 1:45:57.200 for animals. Yeah, I can't stop using her. That's she 1:45:57.280 --> 1:45:59.439 just takes her clothes off. It for animals. But um, 1:45:59.680 --> 1:46:01.639 let me just say something. I would take my clothes 1:46:01.640 --> 1:46:04.040 off for animals. I felt that it would help. I 1:46:04.080 --> 1:46:06.960 think it probably wouldn't help anybody. Well, Ben, Um, I 1:46:07.040 --> 1:46:09.200 know you can't see this. Ben's actually taking his clothes off. 1:46:09.920 --> 1:46:12.920 We're in a hotel room. It's for the animals though, 1:46:14.000 --> 1:46:16.360 That's what I tell people what I'm walking around. Do 1:46:16.479 --> 1:46:18.680 you see this? It's for the animal I gotta I 1:46:18.720 --> 1:46:20.519 gotta help the animals out. But yeah, I mean that's 1:46:20.560 --> 1:46:22.160 something that's been profound of meat in the way of 1:46:22.240 --> 1:46:25.439 thinking about it. Um, I want to I want to 1:46:25.520 --> 1:46:28.680 touch on something you said about history being progressive, and 1:46:28.760 --> 1:46:31.400 I think if I can, if I can just expand 1:46:31.479 --> 1:46:34.439 on that or clarify. So when you say if I 1:46:34.560 --> 1:46:37.920 under if I'm understanding you when you say history is progressive, 1:46:39.160 --> 1:46:42.719 I think what you might mean, right, is that throughout history, 1:46:43.560 --> 1:46:49.040 the circle of those beings, those entities that we consider 1:46:49.400 --> 1:46:53.240 have moral value, who we value. That circle has been expanding. 1:46:53.439 --> 1:46:55.800 So at one time it might be like white people 1:46:55.880 --> 1:46:58.599 in Europe who are landowners for something, and then it's like, oh, 1:46:59.320 --> 1:47:01.960 you know women in or oh kids or you know, 1:47:02.479 --> 1:47:05.280 or people of color or of slave. Oh right. So 1:47:05.280 --> 1:47:09.920 so that circle of what what we call it in ethics, 1:47:10.160 --> 1:47:13.640 of the circle of of moral considerability, the things that 1:47:13.720 --> 1:47:16.559 we can that have to come on our radar. If 1:47:16.600 --> 1:47:19.680 you talked away, if you talk to a uh say, 1:47:19.680 --> 1:47:23.599 a plantation owner in Virginia and you know, eighteen twenty, 1:47:24.160 --> 1:47:26.760 and you say, oh, do you think that those people 1:47:26.840 --> 1:47:29.799 working out in your field are just as morally important 1:47:29.840 --> 1:47:32.840 as you and your family? They go, no, they're they're 1:47:32.880 --> 1:47:35.479 not in that circle. Right. Of course, now we look 1:47:35.520 --> 1:47:38.920 back and we say, wow, that was just either you know, 1:47:39.080 --> 1:47:41.840 either they were in bad faith or they actually didn't 1:47:41.920 --> 1:47:44.360 they didn't think that those were human beings. Right. But 1:47:45.280 --> 1:47:46.760 so what I want to say is when you're in 1:47:46.880 --> 1:47:49.439 with this metaphor you're talking about, and I think the 1:47:49.520 --> 1:47:54.040 animal rights movement in general is to say that circle 1:47:54.960 --> 1:47:59.320 it needs to be expanded even more because because and 1:47:59.400 --> 1:48:01.439 this touches on something you and I talked about before 1:48:01.479 --> 1:48:04.639 the podcast. Is the thing that gets you into the circle. 1:48:05.320 --> 1:48:07.879 It's not that you're a member of the species Homo sapien. 1:48:08.040 --> 1:48:10.920 It's that you're a thing that can suffer. And once 1:48:11.040 --> 1:48:13.400 you open that door, once you go, the things that 1:48:13.479 --> 1:48:17.120 are in that circle are the things that can suffer that. Now, I've, 1:48:17.560 --> 1:48:21.720 as you say, history is progressive on this view. I've 1:48:21.800 --> 1:48:27.080 expanded the moral the circle of moral consideration vastly. Now 1:48:27.160 --> 1:48:29.640 I have to go, does that bear suffer? Does that 1:48:29.720 --> 1:48:33.720 elk suffer? Now? It's in the club. Now. It's not 1:48:33.960 --> 1:48:36.840 to say that once you're in the club everyone is equal, 1:48:36.880 --> 1:48:39.000 because a lot of people will criticize, you know, like 1:48:39.160 --> 1:48:42.439 Peter and and and Ingrid new Kirk, who's the president 1:48:42.439 --> 1:48:44.479 of Peter will say, like a boy is a pig 1:48:44.560 --> 1:48:47.040 as a mouse? Oh, animal rights activists think that you 1:48:47.080 --> 1:48:52.599 know a mouse is the same, but don't put in jail. Yeah, 1:48:52.640 --> 1:48:54.559 but and and that's but that that's not I think 1:48:54.640 --> 1:48:57.439 the view is to say this is and actually I 1:48:57.560 --> 1:48:59.439 bet you. I think I think you're going to agree 1:48:59.439 --> 1:49:02.680 with this. And here's what I'm just guessing. So so 1:49:03.360 --> 1:49:09.200 sentient beings like non human animals, maybe you won't. But 1:49:09.840 --> 1:49:12.120 they're in the club of things that I have to consider. 1:49:12.160 --> 1:49:14.800 In other words, if I if I'm walking down the 1:49:15.280 --> 1:49:18.320 path and I kick a rock, You're not going to 1:49:18.439 --> 1:49:20.800 think anything of it. If I kick a little vole 1:49:21.080 --> 1:49:23.000 or like a little mouse, you might go, dude, what, 1:49:23.400 --> 1:49:25.720 what's what? And I can't just go, oh, it's just 1:49:25.880 --> 1:49:28.120 a mouse. You would go, you know, you have a 1:49:28.280 --> 1:49:31.280 if your son pulls the dog's tail, You're you're not 1:49:31.320 --> 1:49:34.120 gonna go that's okay, You're gonna go, hey, don't hurt. Right, 1:49:34.600 --> 1:49:36.880 So we agree that I think we agree that that 1:49:37.080 --> 1:49:40.519 circle actually is is pretty big. Now the question is this, 1:49:41.840 --> 1:49:45.200 Once we agree who's in the circle, then the question 1:49:45.320 --> 1:49:49.160 is who's more important in the circle, Like what's the hierarchy? Dude? 1:49:49.160 --> 1:49:51.120 I totally and as I listened to you, and I was, 1:49:51.720 --> 1:49:53.320 like I said, I was. I was talking to the guy, 1:49:53.560 --> 1:49:57.200 the animal rights guy, Matt Johnson yesterday, and I was 1:49:57.280 --> 1:49:59.680 confused by that point, Like I just couldn't get it 1:50:00.439 --> 1:50:04.920 accepting having the circle, accepting animals into where we are. 1:50:05.640 --> 1:50:08.400 It's confusing to me because I end up like I'm 1:50:08.479 --> 1:50:10.400 killing animals. I'm not gonna stop doing that if they're 1:50:10.439 --> 1:50:12.519 in the same circle as me, What the funk? And 1:50:12.600 --> 1:50:15.360 then there's all these issues of they're in the same 1:50:15.400 --> 1:50:18.880 circle as me. There's a lot we can get I mean, 1:50:18.880 --> 1:50:20.719 I can go for for days and days and poking 1:50:20.760 --> 1:50:23.800 holes and that idea, but we can get there if 1:50:23.840 --> 1:50:26.200 we need to. But what I would agree with in 1:50:26.320 --> 1:50:30.599 that idea is that, yeah, absolutely any animal was suffering 1:50:30.840 --> 1:50:37.600 belongs like being in the circle. But hunting is to 1:50:37.720 --> 1:50:39.840 me a good way to kind of live in this 1:50:39.960 --> 1:50:43.640 circle because I'm I'm taking one or taking few to 1:50:43.760 --> 1:50:46.720 help the many. And I think if I could talk 1:50:46.800 --> 1:50:48.200 with the l can be like we're on this circle, 1:50:48.200 --> 1:50:52.040 I'm gonna kill something of like I might just tell 1:50:52.120 --> 1:50:54.559 myself I'm not if I do certain things. But there's 1:50:54.640 --> 1:50:57.680 no way I can't see I can't say getting around that. 1:50:58.000 --> 1:51:00.040 Maybe any consumption engine I can't see getting aroun on 1:51:00.160 --> 1:51:03.200 me being the understanding life eats life and I can't 1:51:03.280 --> 1:51:06.560 understand I can't see myself getting around that. So what 1:51:06.680 --> 1:51:08.680 am I going to do? All right? And I think 1:51:09.720 --> 1:51:11.439 we probably can agree to get to that point. Then 1:51:11.479 --> 1:51:13.320 what are we gonna do? You have a different answer 1:51:13.360 --> 1:51:14.920 than I have. It's like, what are you gonna do? 1:51:15.720 --> 1:51:17.720 Not the animals. What I'm gonna do, I'm gonna kill 1:51:18.800 --> 1:51:22.519 wild animals and eat those to mitigate other animals that 1:51:22.600 --> 1:51:25.640 I have no vision over, no like vision of what 1:51:25.760 --> 1:51:28.360 they are. And I wrote this down to bring this 1:51:28.479 --> 1:51:31.080 up to you. I was like to me, it's this, 1:51:31.360 --> 1:51:34.679 it's this like vision issue. It's an issue of seeing 1:51:35.680 --> 1:51:38.320 within the circle. I can see my impact. I'm better 1:51:38.439 --> 1:51:42.120 at being in the damn circle. If I can't see 1:51:42.160 --> 1:51:46.320 my impact, if I'm choosing to take some walk walk 1:51:46.360 --> 1:51:50.080 away from my impact purposefully and then not look back 1:51:50.160 --> 1:51:53.320 at it, then I probably I'm probably not as good 1:51:53.360 --> 1:51:55.360 in the circle as other people. You know. So my 1:51:55.640 --> 1:51:58.280 vision the vision of cutting asshole out of an analym, 1:51:58.439 --> 1:52:02.360 the vision of pulling its cuts out. And so maybe 1:52:02.400 --> 1:52:05.639 for animal rights folks that helps them understand that I'm 1:52:05.720 --> 1:52:07.840 fighting for the same circle you're fighting for. It's just 1:52:08.600 --> 1:52:10.639 I'm not going to be so foolish as to think 1:52:10.680 --> 1:52:14.639 that I'm gonna live ever in a world well there's 1:52:14.680 --> 1:52:18.280 no impact, no human impact. Yeah, that said, you have 1:52:18.400 --> 1:52:22.400 to acknowledge that. Everyone has to acknowledge it. Um, And 1:52:22.600 --> 1:52:23.920 I just want to go back to something you said 1:52:23.920 --> 1:52:27.840 about it's true that life, life needs life. You know, 1:52:27.880 --> 1:52:33.000 life kills life to survive. And but most vegans, myself 1:52:33.640 --> 1:52:38.880 being in this areas, is that it's it's not the 1:52:38.960 --> 1:52:43.599 issue of of destroying life as much because plants are alive, 1:52:43.840 --> 1:52:46.960 but your plants aren't sentient. So let me let me 1:52:47.360 --> 1:52:49.320 let me ask you a question, just just just sort 1:52:49.320 --> 1:52:52.080 of theoretical thought experiment, is like you're in the circle, 1:52:52.840 --> 1:52:57.280 and all things being equal, you have to survive, and 1:52:57.400 --> 1:53:00.439 you could eat a plant or you can kill an elk. 1:53:00.720 --> 1:53:04.320 And and just in my thought experiment, do you have 1:53:04.560 --> 1:53:07.240 like a full nutrition. It's not like you need to 1:53:07.280 --> 1:53:09.519 sup it's like you can, you can survive, you can 1:53:09.800 --> 1:53:12.280 you can flourish. And so you're in the circule when 1:53:12.280 --> 1:53:13.800 you're like, I can do this thing or I can 1:53:13.840 --> 1:53:17.840 do that thing, separating out all the consequences. We were 1:53:17.880 --> 1:53:22.560 talking about factory farming. So I think that's that's a 1:53:22.640 --> 1:53:25.759 question I would have for you, is would you still choose, 1:53:27.479 --> 1:53:31.920 say that, to kill the elk over eating the plant 1:53:32.040 --> 1:53:35.360 or killing the plant for sustenance, and and if so, 1:53:35.760 --> 1:53:39.479 why and if not why not? Yeah, that's a good question. 1:53:39.800 --> 1:53:43.320 And I think most I think you never asked yourself 1:53:43.360 --> 1:53:47.040 that because it's it's there's never gonna be that time 1:53:47.080 --> 1:53:50.560 where I know that, But it's a thought experiment. In 1:53:50.600 --> 1:53:53.080 a thought experiment, I would say, yeah, man, i'd probably 1:53:53.080 --> 1:53:56.839 eat the plants. Yeah so so, And I think hopefully 1:53:56.920 --> 1:53:59.320 most people would think, like I said, like the substitute 1:53:59.400 --> 1:54:04.360 chicken seem that bad to me um and its principle 1:54:04.439 --> 1:54:06.680 and the way that it's presented seeing that bad to me. 1:54:06.760 --> 1:54:09.120 It's like this tastes like something cool, and it could 1:54:09.160 --> 1:54:12.080 be plants instead of a thing that has babies, and 1:54:12.479 --> 1:54:16.840 yeah great, yeah sure. But I think where people I 1:54:16.920 --> 1:54:19.639 disagree with vegans and and and people that are vegan 1:54:19.840 --> 1:54:22.320 get get off the train is the thought experiment thing. 1:54:22.439 --> 1:54:25.960 Like in in thought and theory, it's like what I 1:54:26.040 --> 1:54:27.920 like about you is you're not so connected to the 1:54:28.000 --> 1:54:31.639 thoughts and theories, like there's there's reality sitting right there 1:54:31.640 --> 1:54:33.840 alongside of them. It's important to have those thoughts and 1:54:33.920 --> 1:54:36.280 theories and then work through them, but it's also important 1:54:36.280 --> 1:54:38.880 to understand the reality of the world in which we live. 1:54:39.360 --> 1:54:40.640 I could change the world in which we live. I 1:54:40.680 --> 1:54:42.000 do a lot of ship. I'd probably be able to fly, 1:54:44.200 --> 1:54:47.520 I would have definitely have wings. I would also I 1:54:47.560 --> 1:54:49.760 don't know what else I would have, but would definitely 1:54:49.800 --> 1:54:52.960 have wings. But you know, if I could change those 1:54:53.000 --> 1:54:55.000 things and have those like what what would it be? 1:54:55.640 --> 1:54:59.040 I just can't And so I have to just examine, 1:55:00.200 --> 1:55:01.680 you know, what I can do, you know, And if 1:55:02.080 --> 1:55:03.800 I don't feel like I have to kill the elk, 1:55:04.400 --> 1:55:06.560 I don't, And then that would be disingenuous for me 1:55:06.640 --> 1:55:08.440 to say, like what if I don't kill the elk, 1:55:08.520 --> 1:55:12.640 then I can't be me? Boy, that'd be a tough 1:55:12.720 --> 1:55:16.000 line to walk. But I do think I've come to 1:55:16.120 --> 1:55:19.040 this and I feel comfortable in it because I've thought, 1:55:19.760 --> 1:55:21.760 and like I said, I challenged myself for a long time, 1:55:21.880 --> 1:55:25.400 is this right? Am I just doing this thing because 1:55:25.520 --> 1:55:31.160 other people I know do it? Um? And it's that's 1:55:31.160 --> 1:55:32.640 pregned out. I was going to bring up a comparison 1:55:32.640 --> 1:55:34.760 that would be confusing, but I think like that at 1:55:34.800 --> 1:55:37.360 the moment where you decided to walk away from it, 1:55:37.960 --> 1:55:40.680 I decided to dive back into it pretty hard, you know, 1:55:41.720 --> 1:55:43.680 I I just don't. The other thing I want to 1:55:43.720 --> 1:55:47.600 do is just explain, or at least try to talking 1:55:47.640 --> 1:55:50.560 about the thought experiment as being like theoretical, which it is. 1:55:50.760 --> 1:55:53.800 But I think the reason I brought the thought experiment up, 1:55:53.960 --> 1:55:59.560 and why the thought experiment is important because what it demonstrates. 1:56:00.640 --> 1:56:03.120 What I can infer from your answer to that thought 1:56:03.200 --> 1:56:09.200 experiment is that given the choice you actually given, given 1:56:09.240 --> 1:56:12.360 this like moral and ethical or moral choice, you think 1:56:12.520 --> 1:56:14.080 and correct me. And I don't want to put words 1:56:14.080 --> 1:56:15.480 in your mouth, but from what you said in that 1:56:15.680 --> 1:56:20.280 thought experiment, it seems like, do you think if you 1:56:20.400 --> 1:56:24.040 had to choose all things being equal, eating or killing 1:56:24.160 --> 1:56:31.040 the plant is less causes less suffering or is less heart? Right? Oh? Absolutely? 1:56:31.120 --> 1:56:34.960 And yeah absolutely, And I think most hunters, I think 1:56:35.000 --> 1:56:37.440 that's something that most hunters struggle with and would probably 1:56:37.440 --> 1:56:40.200 cringe to hear me say like what, yeah, oh my gosh. 1:56:40.240 --> 1:56:43.760 And also the thing about history being progressive, most hunters like, 1:56:43.920 --> 1:56:47.040 what's he's saying? Isn't he isn't isn't that kind of 1:56:47.080 --> 1:56:50.520 the argument this other guys making. But I think what 1:56:50.680 --> 1:56:53.200 I think it buttresses how I feel about this thing. 1:56:53.280 --> 1:56:55.960 Like I've if I felt killing elk was like somehow 1:56:56.080 --> 1:56:59.960 necessary or better than eating a plant, then I would 1:57:00.040 --> 1:57:03.920 have to admit to somehow like lusting for or holding 1:57:04.000 --> 1:57:06.680 up on a pedestal the killing of of an elk 1:57:06.880 --> 1:57:08.960 I don't and I don't do that. I don't want 1:57:08.960 --> 1:57:11.400 to do that. It's not hunting. It for me is 1:57:12.160 --> 1:57:17.200 many parts, you know, but it's not all parts, the killing, right, 1:57:17.680 --> 1:57:19.760 And so I think it would be disingenuous for me 1:57:19.840 --> 1:57:23.440 to say to say I would I would rather take 1:57:23.480 --> 1:57:25.200 an arrow and jam it through the heart of an 1:57:25.240 --> 1:57:28.440 elk then walk over here and picking your corn off 1:57:28.520 --> 1:57:31.840 of things, Like the two acts aren't equal, right. I 1:57:31.880 --> 1:57:34.600 think that's important, man, that's really important, because you and I, 1:57:35.280 --> 1:57:38.800 I mean, we're on the same page. And and if 1:57:39.400 --> 1:57:43.240 if someone said to me you had to kill an 1:57:43.280 --> 1:57:44.880 elk or you had to you know, there was like 1:57:45.480 --> 1:57:47.840 these children like, to me, it's a no brainer, like 1:57:48.040 --> 1:57:50.120 I have to kill the elk to sit right. So 1:57:51.200 --> 1:57:57.760 so I think we agree that that what if if 1:57:57.840 --> 1:58:00.200 I don't have to cause suffering, if it's mere really 1:58:00.240 --> 1:58:04.200 because of my appetite or whatever, just because I like bacon, 1:58:04.400 --> 1:58:07.920 or because I like to drive you know, diesel trucks 1:58:08.160 --> 1:58:11.560 just around. You know, we both agree that if it's 1:58:11.560 --> 1:58:14.840 not necessary like that, it seems like that that choice 1:58:15.120 --> 1:58:17.320 that's not that wouldn't be the right choice. So what 1:58:17.480 --> 1:58:22.480 I think is is really interesting here is that now 1:58:22.640 --> 1:58:24.760 you and I are looking at the world. We have 1:58:25.000 --> 1:58:28.080 similar at least and this and this venue we have 1:58:28.240 --> 1:58:32.320 kind of overlapping values. And now we're like, so what now? Now, 1:58:32.560 --> 1:58:33.680 now I have to look at the real world, and 1:58:33.720 --> 1:58:36.720 you're like, so, what is the way to decrease suffering? 1:58:36.880 --> 1:58:40.400 And as you said, my my view is, I'm like, well, 1:58:40.400 --> 1:58:43.040 I just want to remove myself from the killing of animals, 1:58:43.160 --> 1:58:45.760 and you think your view is no. By by actually 1:58:45.800 --> 1:58:50.960 adopting this, I'm actually decreasing suffering. And so I think 1:58:51.000 --> 1:58:55.800 that's where our disagreement is. And that seems like that's 1:58:55.880 --> 1:58:58.520 less of a philosophical that's more of like an empirical 1:58:58.600 --> 1:59:00.720 like is it the case that it seems like more 1:59:00.800 --> 1:59:04.280 tactile than anything? What's your tactic here? What are you 1:59:04.360 --> 1:59:08.280 going for? And I think mine and mine, like I said, 1:59:08.320 --> 1:59:09.920 if you were, you know, I think that's important for 1:59:10.040 --> 1:59:12.400 me to realize them, for you, and for folks listening, 1:59:12.600 --> 1:59:16.240 especially hunters, to realize. Boy, it would be weird to say. 1:59:16.360 --> 1:59:18.600 And listen, I'm sure people will right in after this 1:59:18.720 --> 1:59:20.400 and tell me why. Maybe it's not weird to say, 1:59:20.480 --> 1:59:23.080 but to me, it's weird to say that you would 1:59:23.160 --> 1:59:26.240 pick killing the elk. If if we're if if all 1:59:26.360 --> 1:59:29.520 things being equaled, you're standing in you're standing in a 1:59:30.560 --> 1:59:33.280 a baseless environment, and there's an elk over there, you're 1:59:33.320 --> 1:59:36.280 super hungry. There's an elk over there, and there's a 1:59:36.520 --> 1:59:40.160 stalk of corn. I just it would be super disingenuous 1:59:40.200 --> 1:59:43.520 for any hunter, just say they would go and take 1:59:43.600 --> 1:59:46.880 the life of that elk over picking the corn. I 1:59:46.960 --> 1:59:50.200 just think it would be disingenuous. But but yeah, then 1:59:50.240 --> 1:59:52.720 we get to the point where now we leap back 1:59:52.760 --> 1:59:56.720 into the real world. We're like, okay, now we're we're here. 1:59:56.920 --> 1:59:59.240 We can't we can't live in that world. We don't 1:59:59.280 --> 2:00:00.680 live in that world. And I think a lot of 2:00:01.400 --> 2:00:03.400 folks that look at vegans think that that's the world 2:00:03.440 --> 2:00:05.080 in which they live. They think they can live in 2:00:05.120 --> 2:00:08.480 a world, or you know, some version of the vegan 2:00:08.560 --> 2:00:10.320 person thinks they can live in a world where there 2:00:10.440 --> 2:00:13.320 is that choice. My I would say that there isn't. 2:00:13.760 --> 2:00:15.680 I have not run into a time where I could 2:00:16.480 --> 2:00:19.480 can make that choice. So now my choices are this 2:00:19.600 --> 2:00:23.960 complicated menu of have some of this, but over here 2:00:24.040 --> 2:00:26.880 this is gonna happen, right, have some of this, and 2:00:26.960 --> 2:00:28.920 over here this is gonna happen to have some corn, 2:00:29.000 --> 2:00:32.440 and over here, you know, corn prices are gonna go up, 2:00:32.520 --> 2:00:35.800 and wherever that corn came from, and some some migrant 2:00:35.840 --> 2:00:39.520 worker is gonna become poor because they can't afford corn now, 2:00:39.600 --> 2:00:43.360 and then they're gonna deal drug whatever or and now 2:00:43.400 --> 2:00:45.160 I'm never gonna see that. And that's why I say that. 2:00:45.240 --> 2:00:49.160 To me, it's like this vision experience. In embracing that experience, 2:00:49.560 --> 2:00:52.160 I've learned so much about myself, about what I can 2:00:52.240 --> 2:00:56.160 do as a person, about what an animal really can be, 2:00:56.400 --> 2:00:58.800 and how it can really value your life, what it 2:00:58.840 --> 2:01:01.000 can give you that you may not know if you 2:01:01.160 --> 2:01:04.200 never went through that. It's a freaking hell of a 2:01:04.280 --> 2:01:06.640 hurdle to ask anyone just to like, you know what, 2:01:06.800 --> 2:01:09.320 you can find all these wonderful things, but you gotta 2:01:10.040 --> 2:01:12.360 kill that thing. You gotta go over and walk over there, 2:01:12.800 --> 2:01:14.720 kill it. But here's what you're gonna get when you 2:01:14.800 --> 2:01:18.120 do that. Boy, I understand that's tough, and I would 2:01:18.200 --> 2:01:20.920 never ask. I don't ask people to do it unless 2:01:20.960 --> 2:01:23.560 they want to. I wouldn't be like, son, you're three 2:01:23.640 --> 2:01:26.480 years old, you better really love to kill stuff, or 2:01:26.560 --> 2:01:29.720 your life won't be as enriched as mine is no like. 2:01:29.920 --> 2:01:34.760 But if you want to take that monumental step to 2:01:34.880 --> 2:01:37.040 go and pluck the life of an animal, of something 2:01:37.080 --> 2:01:38.920 you didn't plant there, and you're taking it out of 2:01:38.960 --> 2:01:41.320 the natural world, you didn't put it there. If you 2:01:41.400 --> 2:01:42.720 want to do that, I can show you how to 2:01:42.760 --> 2:01:44.680 do it in a way that will enrich your life 2:01:45.120 --> 2:01:48.440 and and will be this version of consumption that helps 2:01:48.480 --> 2:01:51.200 you be a better part of the circle. And maybe 2:01:51.200 --> 2:01:52.720 it will be a small tribe of us in the 2:01:52.800 --> 2:01:54.760 future that does it. But if it's a tribe of 2:01:54.760 --> 2:01:57.480 people that understand it, it's impacts in a way that 2:01:57.560 --> 2:02:03.000 it can function for good. I think it can stick around. 2:02:03.080 --> 2:02:05.760 But again, you know, I mean there's I don't know 2:02:05.960 --> 2:02:08.120 if veganism is growing. I don't know the numbers. I'm 2:02:08.160 --> 2:02:10.600 assuming it is in the world wide scale. It's about 2:02:10.880 --> 2:02:15.120 worldwide's about but it's probably growing, right, I mean, it's 2:02:15.200 --> 2:02:17.600 it's supposedly growing. But you know, you don't know. But 2:02:17.760 --> 2:02:20.640 we know that hunting is like not. I think hunting 2:02:20.760 --> 2:02:23.320 is actually diminished the numbers of hunters, so we we 2:02:23.480 --> 2:02:26.360 know by every measure, there's not a standard of measure, 2:02:26.400 --> 2:02:28.000 which I wish there was. What there isn't. But we 2:02:28.120 --> 2:02:32.000 know by almost all the measures that we can can 2:02:32.800 --> 2:02:35.120 can have here in our country at least that it's 2:02:35.200 --> 2:02:39.600 it's diminishing and why. I mean, there's lots of reasons. 2:02:39.680 --> 2:02:42.480 But for me, if we could, if we could just 2:02:43.000 --> 2:02:47.000 hang onto that thing that is so enriching to my life, 2:02:47.040 --> 2:02:49.320 then we could make it work for the future. Do 2:02:49.360 --> 2:02:52.080 you Here's I'm curious about two because you're I mean, Ben, 2:02:52.160 --> 2:02:54.640 You're so thoughtful, and it's it's I'm just very impressed 2:02:54.680 --> 2:02:58.960 with you're the depth of your thought process about this. 2:02:59.720 --> 2:03:02.920 So as a non hunter, someone on the outside, I'm 2:03:02.920 --> 2:03:09.560 wondering about the issue of and again I'm sort of isolating. 2:03:09.680 --> 2:03:11.800 I know that I mean the way and you can 2:03:11.880 --> 2:03:13.800 correct me if I'm wrong, but they're they're the way 2:03:13.840 --> 2:03:15.680 I think about hunting, the way that this is not 2:03:15.760 --> 2:03:18.480 original to me. Gary Varner, who's an animal rights philosopher. 2:03:18.960 --> 2:03:20.600 I've tried to get Gary on the podcast and he 2:03:21.200 --> 2:03:24.200 he said he's retired. Okay, he's he's a smart dude. 2:03:24.400 --> 2:03:25.600 I mean, not because he didn't want to do the 2:03:25.800 --> 2:03:30.120 because he's retiring. Um, but you know, he talks about 2:03:30.160 --> 2:03:34.200 you know, what he calls therapeutic hunting, subsistence hunting, and 2:03:34.280 --> 2:03:38.000 sport hunting. There's three categories, right, and they overlap. Therapeutic 2:03:38.080 --> 2:03:40.160 hunting is, like we were thinning, we have to do 2:03:40.640 --> 2:03:44.440 this kind of conservation, we're hunting for that purpose. Subsistence hunting, 2:03:44.480 --> 2:03:46.640 of course would be like Inuit are doing, and then 2:03:46.640 --> 2:03:49.440 there's sport hunting, so and they of course overlap. But 2:03:49.560 --> 2:03:53.440 what I'm what I'm the the way that I'm thinking 2:03:53.440 --> 2:03:56.480 about this in this kind of nice neat categories is 2:03:57.440 --> 2:04:01.160 it seems like the easiest target, no pun intended for 2:04:01.320 --> 2:04:04.400 the vegan, is the sport hunter, right. So so and 2:04:04.480 --> 2:04:06.400 I'm not saying that there are people who just go out, 2:04:06.440 --> 2:04:08.880 I'm just gonna shoot and and and and kill the 2:04:08.960 --> 2:04:13.640 animal for this pure pleasure. But I would say right 2:04:13.680 --> 2:04:16.400 in that case, because what the way you're talking about 2:04:16.520 --> 2:04:22.040 hunting here, Ben, It's I don't know if your view 2:04:22.200 --> 2:04:26.320 is the majority view among hunters. It may or may 2:04:26.360 --> 2:04:28.720 not be. I mean, it's it seems to me from 2:04:28.760 --> 2:04:32.840 the outside like you're a particularly thoughtful hunter. But the 2:04:33.000 --> 2:04:36.760 fact that I live in a culture where it's perfectly legal, 2:04:37.440 --> 2:04:39.680 whether or not it's moral, that's a separate question, because 2:04:39.840 --> 2:04:42.400 legal and moral two separate issues. But I live in 2:04:42.440 --> 2:04:45.920 a culture where it's perfectly legal for me for no 2:04:46.040 --> 2:04:50.120 other reason than my own pleasure to go get it 2:04:50.240 --> 2:04:53.760 your ten point buck shoot it. I don't have to 2:04:53.840 --> 2:04:55.880 do any I can go bring it back to my place, 2:04:55.960 --> 2:04:58.160 chop its head off, throw it out, and put it 2:04:58.240 --> 2:05:02.320 on my wall. That just seems like talk about where 2:05:02.400 --> 2:05:05.360 we've gone fucking sideways somewhere, like the fact that that 2:05:05.680 --> 2:05:08.960 is okay, as opposed to saying, you know, the kind 2:05:09.000 --> 2:05:11.920 of fair chase rules and the hunter's ethics and stuff. 2:05:13.040 --> 2:05:17.440 That just seems like, well, that's we've gone way off 2:05:18.760 --> 2:05:22.040 track here if that's okay. So I wonder if you 2:05:22.040 --> 2:05:25.160 would agree with me and that that's a reflection just 2:05:25.360 --> 2:05:27.200 like the thing in the plastic bag, and you throw 2:05:27.320 --> 2:05:29.760 the fact that we have somebody with a higher powered 2:05:29.880 --> 2:05:32.720 rifle killing, puts his head up, doesn't give a shit 2:05:32.760 --> 2:05:36.720 about it. That would you agree with me that that's 2:05:36.800 --> 2:05:41.760 something that we should we should advocate against or I mean, 2:05:41.960 --> 2:05:44.480 am I putting you on the spot on the No? No, no, 2:05:44.640 --> 2:05:47.160 I'm like, I'm I'm putting myself on the spot by 2:05:47.200 --> 2:05:49.960 haven't you on? Um? But I do that, and so 2:05:50.120 --> 2:05:52.680 we can have this conversation. So I think there's a 2:05:52.720 --> 2:05:55.320 lot and I discussed this, and there's a guy who 2:05:55.440 --> 2:05:57.600 was just on We'll just have been on the podcast 2:05:57.680 --> 2:05:59.880 prior to this, who is the Hunter? And it was 2:06:00.360 --> 2:06:02.760 who is saying, like my granddaddy's way of being a sport, 2:06:02.840 --> 2:06:05.840 hunter's gotta gotta go, like we gotta change this. And 2:06:06.160 --> 2:06:09.280 and I see that, and I see and I see it, 2:06:09.360 --> 2:06:10.720 and I look at it and I'm like, I kind 2:06:10.760 --> 2:06:13.320 of agree with you. But but there's something that pulls 2:06:13.360 --> 2:06:16.480 at me a little bit that the culture, in the 2:06:16.600 --> 2:06:19.920 idea of hunting is born in all types of motivations. 2:06:21.080 --> 2:06:23.840 So like a it's I'll start by saying, like, at 2:06:23.840 --> 2:06:25.960 its core, I can't really disagree with that because that's 2:06:26.000 --> 2:06:28.240 not what I do. Right. So, like your version of 2:06:28.360 --> 2:06:31.480 vegans and that you have if somebody's practicing there out 2:06:31.520 --> 2:06:33.320 there saying like if you don't need vegans, you're going 2:06:33.360 --> 2:06:35.120 to hell, or if you don't need vegetables, you're going 2:06:35.160 --> 2:06:37.240 to hell, Like you don't agree with that if you 2:06:37.240 --> 2:06:39.600 don't want to strike it from the ledger because it 2:06:39.720 --> 2:06:42.400 probably has some it's doing some good. And then in hunting, 2:06:42.480 --> 2:06:45.160 I know for a fact that we've set up a 2:06:45.200 --> 2:06:48.200 system where that guy who just chops the head off 2:06:49.240 --> 2:06:51.200 he has to pay money, and that money goes back 2:06:51.240 --> 2:06:53.680 to making sure there's more animals. He is doing good, 2:06:53.720 --> 2:06:56.400 whether he wants to or not, like he is killing 2:06:56.440 --> 2:07:00.400 an animal that that Wildlife biologists on the state level 2:07:00.640 --> 2:07:02.920 have said, there are this many animals, there's this much land, 2:07:02.920 --> 2:07:05.960 there's this many resources. We must balance them. Let's use 2:07:06.040 --> 2:07:08.960 this hunter, this trophy hunter, as a tool to help 2:07:09.040 --> 2:07:11.440 us do that. That in that triphy hunter will pay 2:07:11.520 --> 2:07:15.000 us money, you know he has. He assigns a different 2:07:15.120 --> 2:07:16.960 value to that animal. Maybe it's not the meat or 2:07:17.000 --> 2:07:19.800 the experience that I have. He signs a different value 2:07:19.840 --> 2:07:22.480 to it. He'll pay for that. We'll put that money 2:07:22.520 --> 2:07:24.480 back into making sure that we have the things we 2:07:24.600 --> 2:07:27.160 need to make sure these animals, you know, we perpetuate 2:07:27.240 --> 2:07:30.680 these populations in the future. And so I would just 2:07:30.680 --> 2:07:33.000 admit to being conflicted over that. I don't. It's not 2:07:33.160 --> 2:07:36.680 something that I that I do. I wouldn't if if 2:07:36.920 --> 2:07:39.760 I said this yesterday with Matt Johnson's if you took 2:07:39.800 --> 2:07:41.920 away the meat thing, it would I probably would quit 2:07:42.000 --> 2:07:45.919 doing it. I don't know. I have never been that situation. 2:07:45.960 --> 2:07:47.640 But if you said, hey, you can only hunt things 2:07:47.680 --> 2:07:49.960 you can't eat, Like, well, what's what's what are we doing? 2:07:50.400 --> 2:07:52.640 Why are we doing this? That you better have real 2:07:52.720 --> 2:07:54.320 I better have to sit back down and re or 2:07:54.680 --> 2:07:58.080 reorganize my thoughts around why I'm doing it. So there's 2:07:58.120 --> 2:08:01.360 that point. So I just it's just it's something I'm 2:08:01.360 --> 2:08:04.120 gonna flict in. I see why it's good. I see 2:08:04.160 --> 2:08:06.960 the actual like levers and buttons that we've in the 2:08:07.120 --> 2:08:10.720 systems we've created to make that guy good. Let's call 2:08:10.760 --> 2:08:14.640 that guy an asshole. I've seen that. I've seen that 2:08:14.720 --> 2:08:17.720 it costs ago in a sheep hunt, and I've watched 2:08:17.720 --> 2:08:21.640 sheep hunters shooting shoot a sheep and just knowing they're 2:08:21.640 --> 2:08:23.920 not gonna take the meat, but giving the meat to 2:08:23.960 --> 2:08:27.600 the local native tribe or something, or a local poor 2:08:27.720 --> 2:08:31.040 family and lauding themselves for that. You know, it's like, yeah, okay, 2:08:31.520 --> 2:08:33.240 at least we've built in the hunting community, we have 2:08:33.360 --> 2:08:36.640 built this thing where you better at least you better, 2:08:36.720 --> 2:08:40.360 at the very least somehow make yourself seem good. It's 2:08:40.400 --> 2:08:43.480 because we don't tolerate that ship. If you're just whacking 2:08:43.560 --> 2:08:45.960 stuff and and rolling around, we don't really tolerate that. 2:08:46.640 --> 2:08:49.320 You better give money to conservation, you better give the 2:08:49.360 --> 2:08:51.800 meat to someone who needs it, you better do something 2:08:52.400 --> 2:08:58.440 to stay in the club. I'm comfortable there, but philosophically, 2:08:58.440 --> 2:09:01.240 I don't agree with that person. And I'm sure you 2:09:01.280 --> 2:09:04.360 could probably say the same with lots of lots of 2:09:04.480 --> 2:09:09.120 vegan folks. Um. So it's so it's definitely complicated that way. 2:09:09.200 --> 2:09:11.920 And I mean there's times where I've spoken out against 2:09:12.080 --> 2:09:17.680 certain groups and I've supported certain groups. And I'd love 2:09:17.720 --> 2:09:19.240 to see a time where we don't have to say 2:09:19.280 --> 2:09:21.080 the word trophy hunting, or we don't have to like 2:09:21.560 --> 2:09:27.560 have that conversation. But we're here, you know, and I wish, 2:09:27.800 --> 2:09:29.920 I wish we could have the full conversation, And like 2:09:30.000 --> 2:09:32.360 the mainstream, I wish we could really just have the 2:09:32.400 --> 2:09:35.640 full conversation, not just pluck the thing that you know 2:09:35.880 --> 2:09:39.280 that is controversial and push it, push it forward. Maybe 2:09:39.280 --> 2:09:41.600 if somebody can take that away from this conversation, like boy, 2:09:41.680 --> 2:09:43.520 it's not We're just not that far away. We never 2:09:43.600 --> 2:09:47.040 have been. I don't really think. Um, we can pick 2:09:47.160 --> 2:09:49.560 reasons why we are. We can say trophy hunting far away, 2:09:49.840 --> 2:09:54.400 you know, crazy naked liberal lady far away, but that's 2:09:54.440 --> 2:09:56.160 not really at the core world we're trying to get to, 2:09:56.800 --> 2:09:59.920 you know. That's the that's the friendship that we all 2:10:00.160 --> 2:10:02.680 point to, is that people that aren't smart enough to 2:10:02.720 --> 2:10:05.840 come up with their own ideas just point to that stuff. Um. 2:10:06.440 --> 2:10:10.040 But I think people that that follow our company and 2:10:11.000 --> 2:10:13.640 listen to this have thought this through and I've talked 2:10:13.680 --> 2:10:15.120 to a lot of them, and a lot of them 2:10:15.160 --> 2:10:20.120 are where I'm at there generationally moving away from what 2:10:20.240 --> 2:10:22.600 it used to be and trying to figure out what 2:10:22.800 --> 2:10:25.000 is ethics. You know. I've given some talks on hunting 2:10:25.040 --> 2:10:27.840 ethics and sporting ethics and a lot of people come 2:10:27.920 --> 2:10:30.360 and a lot of people have questions. And so I 2:10:30.400 --> 2:10:33.320 think there's a generation, not just our generation, but like 2:10:33.400 --> 2:10:35.880 a movement within the hunting world to better understand this 2:10:35.960 --> 2:10:38.840 stuff and be able to better articulate it, where maybe 2:10:38.920 --> 2:10:41.200 before it would be like there was a there was 2:10:41.200 --> 2:10:45.280 a principle when I was coming up that was I 2:10:45.320 --> 2:10:46.640 don't know if it was my dad's, but it was 2:10:46.720 --> 2:10:49.640 definitely his generations. I was like, don't talk about it 2:10:50.000 --> 2:10:51.840 because if you go hunting and you just keep it 2:10:51.880 --> 2:10:56.280 between us, like nobody will come and attack. And if 2:10:56.320 --> 2:10:59.000 it's if it's just us amongst us, we get what 2:10:59.080 --> 2:11:02.280 it is um and then social media game and then 2:11:02.320 --> 2:11:05.800 here we are, you know, vegan philosopher and a hunting 2:11:06.120 --> 2:11:09.840 bearded hunting guy talking. Yeah, but I really appreciated him. 2:11:09.920 --> 2:11:11.560 I feel like we've covered all the ground. Is there 2:11:11.560 --> 2:11:15.920 anything left on the on the plate? Uh? I mean 2:11:15.960 --> 2:11:18.200 we could talk for hours. No, I think I think 2:11:18.240 --> 2:11:22.600 for what we covered, yeah, I mean if if, if 2:11:22.720 --> 2:11:27.000 nothing else comes up this discussion. What I hope is 2:11:27.120 --> 2:11:31.280 that people who are listening who don't agree with animal 2:11:31.400 --> 2:11:34.200 rights or veganism or this kind of way that I 2:11:34.280 --> 2:11:38.520 look at the world, is that they at least I 2:11:38.640 --> 2:11:45.960 think that there's substantial body of of thought. It's it's 2:11:46.040 --> 2:11:51.520 it's it's not simply like animals are sacred and you're 2:11:51.600 --> 2:11:55.160 killing them and you're bad. It's it's if nothing else, 2:11:55.240 --> 2:11:59.200 they see that this is actually a nuanced, you know, view, 2:11:59.400 --> 2:12:01.800 that that is not merely like you said, throwing the 2:12:01.840 --> 2:12:03.880 blood on the I mean, it's not loony tunes what 2:12:03.960 --> 2:12:06.480 you're saying, what you're saying to me. At least maybe people, 2:12:06.520 --> 2:12:08.000 maybe this will be the end of my podcast Hall 2:12:08.040 --> 2:12:09.880 Hunters will be like this, dude, what the is he 2:12:09.920 --> 2:12:11.960 talking about but he didn't speak for us, but I 2:12:11.960 --> 2:12:14.280 don't only speaking for myself. And like when when where 2:12:14.280 --> 2:12:16.000 I'm in the room with you and we're talking like this, 2:12:16.160 --> 2:12:17.960 there's a lot of it that makes sense. And like 2:12:18.040 --> 2:12:20.320 I said, it wasn't I didn't. That didn't just happen 2:12:20.360 --> 2:12:23.040 to me. I thought that for for quite a while. Um, 2:12:23.880 --> 2:12:28.680 And so who knows how many people will will listen 2:12:28.760 --> 2:12:31.160 to this and have those realizations, but I think a 2:12:31.200 --> 2:12:34.080 lot will because I think it. We're just a lot 2:12:34.160 --> 2:12:38.600 closer than we thought, or most of us think. And 2:12:38.760 --> 2:12:40.320 taking a little bit of time to walk through it, 2:12:41.000 --> 2:12:42.240 that's all you gotta do. Take a little bit of 2:12:42.280 --> 2:12:43.920 time with vegan. If you're out there listening to this, 2:12:44.680 --> 2:12:46.520 then you've got a vegan aunt that just always yells 2:12:46.520 --> 2:12:50.200 at you about your steak, your venison. Sit down with 2:12:50.320 --> 2:12:53.320 her and have this kind of conversation. Be like and 2:12:53.680 --> 2:12:56.560 and if either of the two of you in the 2:12:56.680 --> 2:13:00.760 conversation hasn't thought out their ideologies enough, boy, you're gonna 2:13:00.760 --> 2:13:03.600 be like, oh shut I better go back to I'm 2:13:03.640 --> 2:13:06.440 pretty go back, I go bettert to go get get 2:13:06.480 --> 2:13:09.880 back in the idea, Jim, start lifting. Anyone who wants 2:13:09.880 --> 2:13:12.480 to contact me, tell him to my website. Yeah, what's 2:13:12.480 --> 2:13:14.720 your website? Where can people find? I just googled you 2:13:14.840 --> 2:13:17.080 and like started watching videos and reading your paper. Is 2:13:17.120 --> 2:13:21.040 there a better? RC Jones dot m E r C. 2:13:21.200 --> 2:13:23.959 Jones dot emmy. You know, I feel kind of embarrassed 2:13:23.960 --> 2:13:27.280 because r C. Jones dot com, it's arc Jones is common. 2:13:27.560 --> 2:13:29.880 The only thing they had left was me, And I'm like, 2:13:30.960 --> 2:13:34.960 sounds it sounds so like, you know, like narcissistic, like anyway, 2:13:35.680 --> 2:13:37.600 with a name like rcy Jones, all the other things 2:13:37.640 --> 2:13:41.240 were taken. So if it was like arc Jones dot awesome, Okay, 2:13:42.120 --> 2:13:46.800 I thought I'm awesome. All right, you're being a little presumptive. 2:13:47.400 --> 2:13:52.520 You're pretty cool anyway. R C. Jones dot me if 2:13:52.560 --> 2:13:54.800 you want to, and you can shoot me an email. 2:13:54.960 --> 2:13:58.400 What I mean, I I love to dialogue about this 2:13:58.480 --> 2:14:02.280 stuff because I think dialogue is I you know, we 2:14:02.440 --> 2:14:05.320 talked about earlier about living a life we're trying to 2:14:05.640 --> 2:14:09.000 you knows, as I say in the paper, aspiring to 2:14:09.160 --> 2:14:12.480 live a life of non violence and less suffering. I 2:14:12.600 --> 2:14:18.760 think modeling dialogue is rather than vitual and and this 2:14:18.960 --> 2:14:22.200 polemic and yelling and you're done and you know, I 2:14:22.320 --> 2:14:28.800 think part of that responsibility to non violence is to model. Yeah, 2:14:28.840 --> 2:14:31.600 and that's a great point. Yeah, And I remember early 2:14:31.680 --> 2:14:33.840 in my career. I mean, I look back a lot 2:14:33.840 --> 2:14:35.440 of stuff I've written in my career. I worked for 2:14:35.520 --> 2:14:37.360 the n r A, like when I first came out 2:14:37.360 --> 2:14:40.440 of college, and it was a great place, nice people. 2:14:40.720 --> 2:14:42.320 You know, they believe that they believe. And I still 2:14:42.440 --> 2:14:44.600 I believe very hard, whole hardly in the Second Amendment 2:14:44.640 --> 2:14:48.800 and all those things. Um, But there's just ways that 2:14:48.920 --> 2:14:52.960 I that I spoke and wrote at that time that 2:14:53.040 --> 2:14:55.840 I just don't know that I knew the gravity of 2:14:56.200 --> 2:14:58.720 of what I was saying. You know, anti hunters was 2:14:58.760 --> 2:15:02.960 a big thing, and this is it's like, yeah, okay, 2:15:03.120 --> 2:15:06.320 it's not. That might make me feel good like there's 2:15:06.320 --> 2:15:08.120 an enemy out there, but it ain't really going to 2:15:08.160 --> 2:15:09.440 get to the point of what I'm trying to do 2:15:09.520 --> 2:15:11.560 is make sure there isn't anti hunters. If I want 2:15:11.600 --> 2:15:13.240 to make sure there isn't anti hunters, I better not 2:15:13.880 --> 2:15:16.440 like close the bridge off, like I bet you. If 2:15:17.040 --> 2:15:18.640 if I want to make sure there's more hunters, I'd 2:15:18.680 --> 2:15:20.960 better not be so rigid in my ideologies that you 2:15:21.160 --> 2:15:22.720 have to think the way I think to get in 2:15:22.840 --> 2:15:26.280 the club. If I do that, then unless people are 2:15:26.320 --> 2:15:28.640 gonna come into the old, the old hunting club. So 2:15:29.560 --> 2:15:32.640 I think that's true for any you know, mechanism or 2:15:32.720 --> 2:15:34.960 hunting or anything like. You know, if we can open up, 2:15:35.760 --> 2:15:37.880 open the shades and be like, this is what's really 2:15:37.920 --> 2:15:39.680 going on in here. Some of it's really great, some 2:15:39.800 --> 2:15:43.840 of it not so great, all of it is complicated. Um, 2:15:44.560 --> 2:15:47.560 we embrace those things and we can we can do something, 2:15:48.040 --> 2:15:51.920 do something good. So well, I appreciate you coming. Thanks Penn. 2:15:51.960 --> 2:15:54.880 It was really nice of great discussion. It's really nice 2:15:54.920 --> 2:15:56.920 to meet you. Yeah, we'll have to do we'll have 2:15:57.000 --> 2:16:00.240 to do more and see what we can well too. 2:16:00.280 --> 2:16:01.920 And I think they're, like you said, we can do 2:16:02.720 --> 2:16:04.920 do a lot with this conversation. Take it further, or 2:16:05.040 --> 2:16:08.600 take this exact conversation and get more people involved. I 2:16:08.640 --> 2:16:10.920 think of you. It's an important thing. I like it 2:16:11.080 --> 2:16:18.000 all right. Thanks man, I guess I grew up on 2:16:18.120 --> 2:16:25.879 and all day row. That's it. That is all episode 2:16:25.880 --> 2:16:28.240 seventy one of the books. Thank you to Phil, Thank 2:16:28.320 --> 2:16:32.240 you to Robert Jones, Thanks to all of you for listening. 2:16:32.840 --> 2:16:34.800 I will say that the last two episodes are something 2:16:34.840 --> 2:16:37.920 that I thought about since the time that I I 2:16:38.000 --> 2:16:41.840 thought about doing this podcast, um for a bunch of reasons, 2:16:41.879 --> 2:16:44.720 but one to challenge my own ideas about animal rights 2:16:44.800 --> 2:16:49.880 and about veganism, to challenge my ideas about Berkeley, California 2:16:49.920 --> 2:16:52.160 and the people that live there, and to bring myself 2:16:52.240 --> 2:16:55.040 closer to the things I don't understand. So that's what 2:16:55.200 --> 2:16:58.440 I wanted to do. Hopefully I definitely achieved that for myself. 2:16:58.920 --> 2:17:03.280 I think having both these conversations with Matt Johnson and 2:17:03.480 --> 2:17:07.720 Robert Jones back to back helped me have a deeper 2:17:07.800 --> 2:17:10.720 perspective and and find real good meeting and in the 2:17:10.800 --> 2:17:13.800 time I spent with both those gentlemen and and moreover 2:17:13.879 --> 2:17:17.000 the time I spent in Berkeley, California exploring these ideas. 2:17:17.080 --> 2:17:19.480 So hopefully there's value in it for you. There certainly 2:17:19.560 --> 2:17:23.240 was valuing it for me, and I guess it's an aside. 2:17:23.320 --> 2:17:26.000 One thing I was thinking is that I would love 2:17:26.160 --> 2:17:28.280 to to go on the road with Robert C. Jones 2:17:28.360 --> 2:17:31.040 and take that conversation and and let people sit in 2:17:31.120 --> 2:17:34.360 the audience and listen to us talk and ask questions 2:17:34.400 --> 2:17:36.920 and make assertions and just open it up to to 2:17:37.080 --> 2:17:40.000 a larger dialogue. I just I just felt I'm sitting 2:17:40.000 --> 2:17:42.720 in a hotel room with with the guy. I felt 2:17:42.760 --> 2:17:45.600 that it was so much value in that room that 2:17:45.800 --> 2:17:49.160 he brought in his perspective that it would be great 2:17:49.280 --> 2:17:51.880 for other folks to see that. So right in, tell 2:17:51.920 --> 2:17:54.040 me either to send us out and let us do it, 2:17:54.120 --> 2:17:56.640 because that would be cool. Um. Also, you know, I'd 2:17:56.640 --> 2:17:58.560 have to ask Robert make sure he's got some time 2:17:58.800 --> 2:18:00.959 to go and do it. But that's that's neither here 2:18:01.040 --> 2:18:04.280 nor there. What else? What else? What else? Oh? Um? 2:18:05.240 --> 2:18:07.160 The Mediator dot com, you gotta go go to the 2:18:07.200 --> 2:18:09.400 metor dot com. I don't talk enough on this show 2:18:09.440 --> 2:18:12.680 about some of the content on the Mediator dot com. 2:18:14.040 --> 2:18:15.920 It's I work on it every day. I got a 2:18:15.959 --> 2:18:18.920 great team of people here, Sam Longdren Spencer, new Art, 2:18:19.040 --> 2:18:22.040 Morgen Mason, Joe Fernando. These guys are working on the 2:18:22.080 --> 2:18:26.400 website every day. We're posting a dozen or more articles 2:18:26.400 --> 2:18:30.160 a week there for you. That includes recipes, that includes 2:18:30.320 --> 2:18:32.360 a thing where we launch called fact Checker, where you 2:18:32.520 --> 2:18:35.879 right in and ask us um to debunk a myth 2:18:36.200 --> 2:18:40.200 that's out there. We have asked wire to hunt from 2:18:40.240 --> 2:18:42.480 Mark Kenyon we have a gear dump series we just 2:18:42.600 --> 2:18:46.320 launched where guys like Brian Callahan are dumping out his 2:18:46.360 --> 2:18:50.640 traditional archity traveling kid and guys like Brodie Henderson are 2:18:50.720 --> 2:18:53.480 showing you what he carries in his bucket when he 2:18:53.520 --> 2:18:55.920 goes fishing with his kids down by the lake. So 2:18:56.120 --> 2:18:58.880 all that stuff, it is too much content for you 2:18:58.920 --> 2:19:01.039 probably to take in on ada a league weekly basis, 2:19:01.520 --> 2:19:03.240 And we're gonna keep pumping it out for you over 2:19:03.280 --> 2:19:05.720 there at the meat eat or dot com. So so 2:19:05.800 --> 2:19:06.920 head over there, and while you're there, to go to 2:19:07.000 --> 2:19:09.600 the store and buy some th HC swag. That would 2:19:09.640 --> 2:19:14.240 be great. And I'll end with please please please right 2:19:14.280 --> 2:19:16.600 in th HC at the meetator dot com. Th HC 2:19:16.840 --> 2:19:18.959 at the meetor dot com. Tell us what she thought 2:19:19.000 --> 2:19:21.640 of this show. Tell us whether we need to keep 2:19:21.680 --> 2:19:24.520 feel or not. Tell us whether we need to talk 2:19:24.520 --> 2:19:27.400 about Game of Thrones. Tell us whether you like peas. 2:19:28.520 --> 2:19:32.480 Tell us whether you are enlightened by our conversation about 2:19:32.600 --> 2:19:36.480 veganism and animal rights. So next time we're going to 2:19:36.600 --> 2:19:41.960 talk to a very enlightening gentleman. His name is I 2:19:42.120 --> 2:19:53.720 fucking forgot his name? Hell Well, William von Hippell, Damn 2:19:53.760 --> 2:19:59.840 it Bill. We'll just keep this all in Phil. The 2:20:00.200 --> 2:20:03.160 thing I forgot William von Hibble. Sorry, Dr Ron Hipple. 2:20:04.040 --> 2:20:10.600 Your name is so it rhymes with nipple, so why 2:20:10.640 --> 2:20:13.320 would I even forget that. Anyway, We'll see you next week. Bye, 2:20:14.440 --> 2:20:19.000 Thank you, Jack Daniels. Oh I'm seven, Tennessee. Who whiskey 2:20:19.120 --> 2:20:22.360 got me dragging heaven and h and just got to 2:20:22.480 --> 2:20:25.840 look good to me. They're gonna have to department to 2:20:26.040 --> 2:20:40.800 the farade, Oh the far red, far dragging heaven,