1
00:00:00,400 --> 00:00:03,559
Speaker 1: Oh hey, everybody, and that's the Hunty Collective. Another week,

2
00:00:03,880 --> 00:00:07,960
Speaker 1: another show, episode seventy one this time, and we're gonna

3
00:00:08,119 --> 00:00:10,800
Speaker 1: start you off with a little behind the scenes, a

4
00:00:10,800 --> 00:00:13,640
Speaker 1: little life and time to fill the engineer. There's been

5
00:00:13,680 --> 00:00:16,400
Speaker 1: a big movement around the country to keep Phil on

6
00:00:16,480 --> 00:00:18,960
Speaker 1: the podcast, so I figured, if we're gonna people are

7
00:00:18,960 --> 00:00:20,960
Speaker 1: gonna be hashtagging my boy Phil, we better find out

8
00:00:21,000 --> 00:00:24,120
Speaker 1: more about what he thinks about things including peas, Game

9
00:00:24,160 --> 00:00:28,600
Speaker 1: of Thrones, and other really interesting items. And then we're

10
00:00:28,600 --> 00:00:32,720
Speaker 1: going to once again transport ourselves to Berkeley, California, where

11
00:00:32,720 --> 00:00:38,519
Speaker 1: we're gonna hear from a vegan professor philosophy, Robert C. Jones,

12
00:00:39,520 --> 00:00:43,559
Speaker 1: and learn about what he thinks about hunting, about ethical

13
00:00:43,640 --> 00:00:46,760
Speaker 1: veganism as he calls it, and some of his greater philosophies.

14
00:00:46,760 --> 00:00:50,840
Speaker 1: It is a long, deep, and awesome conversation, so stick

15
00:00:50,880 --> 00:00:53,479
Speaker 1: around for that. But before we get to that, it

16
00:00:53,640 --> 00:00:57,480
Speaker 1: is summertime, and if you there's part of this podcast

17
00:00:57,520 --> 00:00:59,840
Speaker 1: coming up where we talk about a certain sparkly beverage

18
00:01:00,400 --> 00:01:03,120
Speaker 1: that I've come to be a real big fan of.

19
00:01:04,560 --> 00:01:07,920
Speaker 1: And the perfect cooler to put in put that sparkly

20
00:01:07,959 --> 00:01:11,679
Speaker 1: beverage in is the brand new day Trip lunch bag

21
00:01:12,640 --> 00:01:15,440
Speaker 1: by Eddie. Now, you guys all know that I have

22
00:01:15,480 --> 00:01:17,400
Speaker 1: a long history with the Eddie. I love their products,

23
00:01:17,400 --> 00:01:20,160
Speaker 1: I love their people, I love their company. You might

24
00:01:20,200 --> 00:01:24,280
Speaker 1: ask eighty dollars for a lunch bag. I don't know.

25
00:01:24,480 --> 00:01:27,920
Speaker 1: I'm not sure. I'm telling you, man if but you

26
00:01:28,000 --> 00:01:31,160
Speaker 1: get over the sticker on this. I mean, this is

27
00:01:31,160 --> 00:01:34,399
Speaker 1: one of the more the least expensive YETI products out there.

28
00:01:34,440 --> 00:01:36,440
Speaker 1: It's a great way to have YETI with you all

29
00:01:36,480 --> 00:01:40,040
Speaker 1: the time. And for as a father who is running

30
00:01:40,040 --> 00:01:44,480
Speaker 1: to all kinds of swim camps and bike camps, and

31
00:01:44,560 --> 00:01:48,360
Speaker 1: running my kid to the river to go fishing, taking

32
00:01:48,440 --> 00:01:51,360
Speaker 1: him on road trips to spot elk and and doing

33
00:01:51,400 --> 00:01:53,680
Speaker 1: it just everything with my little guy, this is the

34
00:01:53,680 --> 00:01:56,520
Speaker 1: perfect thing to have with me because he likes he

35
00:01:56,560 --> 00:01:58,920
Speaker 1: likes water, he likes juice, he likes milk, and so

36
00:01:59,000 --> 00:02:02,440
Speaker 1: do I all the things, and so it's it's it's

37
00:02:02,440 --> 00:02:05,000
Speaker 1: a great product for that reason, and it's a product

38
00:02:05,040 --> 00:02:07,920
Speaker 1: I would recommend. So go to eddie dot com and

39
00:02:08,000 --> 00:02:12,679
Speaker 1: check it out. So, without further ado, Episode seventy one,

40
00:02:13,280 --> 00:02:23,440
Speaker 1: let's go. I guess I grew up on an older road.

41
00:02:23,960 --> 00:02:26,399
Speaker 1: A ped'll do the medal. I always did what I've

42
00:02:26,440 --> 00:02:30,000
Speaker 1: told until I found out that my brand new glows

43
00:02:30,120 --> 00:02:33,200
Speaker 1: the game sec in hand from the rich kids next door.

44
00:02:33,480 --> 00:02:36,160
Speaker 1: And I grew up baths. I guess I grew up.

45
00:02:36,200 --> 00:02:38,520
Speaker 1: I mean, they have a thousand things inside of my

46
00:02:38,560 --> 00:02:41,280
Speaker 1: head I wish I ain't seen, and now I just

47
00:02:41,360 --> 00:02:44,200
Speaker 1: want to do a real bad dream or being a

48
00:02:44,280 --> 00:02:47,560
Speaker 1: like I'm coming apart of it seems. But thank you,

49
00:02:47,840 --> 00:02:53,840
Speaker 1: Jack Daniels, Oh No. Seven, Tennessee. Who Hey, everybody, and

50
00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:56,120
Speaker 1: welcome to another episode of The Hunting Collective. I am,

51
00:02:56,160 --> 00:03:00,519
Speaker 1: of course, Ben O'Brien, and I am joined by Phill

52
00:03:00,560 --> 00:03:04,040
Speaker 1: the Engineer. Hey do Ben, it's good now, Phil. We

53
00:03:04,120 --> 00:03:07,000
Speaker 1: got a lot to talk about. I'm excited to hear this,

54
00:03:07,840 --> 00:03:10,400
Speaker 1: a lot to talk about. You have been a recurring

55
00:03:10,400 --> 00:03:12,519
Speaker 1: guest for how many weeks? Now we're like four weeks.

56
00:03:12,639 --> 00:03:15,760
Speaker 1: I think this is number four, and there's a little

57
00:03:15,800 --> 00:03:20,440
Speaker 1: bit of a movement afoot hashtag keep Phil. I saw

58
00:03:20,480 --> 00:03:23,160
Speaker 1: that pop up a couple of places. A lot of

59
00:03:23,160 --> 00:03:26,640
Speaker 1: people were um giving you props for the way you

60
00:03:26,720 --> 00:03:29,800
Speaker 1: handled the public versus private land conversation as well as

61
00:03:29,800 --> 00:03:34,360
Speaker 1: the way that you handled the animal rights conversation. Yeah, well,

62
00:03:34,520 --> 00:03:36,360
Speaker 1: I can tell you my secret. My secret is to

63
00:03:36,440 --> 00:03:39,440
Speaker 1: let the people who have way more knowledge and experience

64
00:03:39,440 --> 00:03:43,120
Speaker 1: about these topics to talk for thirty minutes and then

65
00:03:43,160 --> 00:03:47,160
Speaker 1: I come in. Yeah, no, no, I say one vaguely

66
00:03:48,200 --> 00:03:53,600
Speaker 1: intelligent things like generalized, generalize, I I and then people applauded.

67
00:03:53,680 --> 00:03:57,840
Speaker 1: I say, yes, that's my whole career point. I'm just

68
00:03:57,920 --> 00:04:01,280
Speaker 1: kind of like, yes, a great point, fell oh expert,

69
00:04:01,960 --> 00:04:05,680
Speaker 1: That's that's how I roll. Um. But anyway, you're you know,

70
00:04:05,720 --> 00:04:08,280
Speaker 1: like the movement to keep Phil is strong, and we're

71
00:04:08,280 --> 00:04:10,560
Speaker 1: gonna I never I don't think I ever suggest that

72
00:04:10,600 --> 00:04:13,800
Speaker 1: we wouldn't keep Phil, or maybe I did, but I

73
00:04:13,840 --> 00:04:16,120
Speaker 1: think the first episode was a little rocky. I think

74
00:04:16,160 --> 00:04:20,480
Speaker 1: there was an insinuation that maybe I would be around. Well,

75
00:04:20,480 --> 00:04:22,400
Speaker 1: now I'm turning the heat up on you, Phil. Great. Now,

76
00:04:22,400 --> 00:04:25,039
Speaker 1: there's no one else to except for me to do

77
00:04:25,080 --> 00:04:28,560
Speaker 1: any talking. We don't need Ryan Callahan or Steve Ranella,

78
00:04:29,040 --> 00:04:34,200
Speaker 1: who are these whatever? Whatever? No, No, don't need Yannis,

79
00:04:34,279 --> 00:04:37,440
Speaker 1: but tulis in here, yucking it up. Just me and Phil,

80
00:04:37,880 --> 00:04:39,880
Speaker 1: just me and Phil. Now, this is gonna be a

81
00:04:39,880 --> 00:04:44,480
Speaker 1: long episode because the interview with Robert C. Jones Vegan

82
00:04:44,520 --> 00:04:47,840
Speaker 1: philosopher vegan. Uh, he's not a vegan professor. He's a

83
00:04:47,839 --> 00:04:51,000
Speaker 1: professor of philosophy but also a vegan, and he teaches

84
00:04:51,160 --> 00:04:57,000
Speaker 1: classes about veganism and ethical veganism, has written some papers

85
00:04:57,040 --> 00:04:59,599
Speaker 1: on the subject. He's going to be our guest. I

86
00:04:59,640 --> 00:05:02,679
Speaker 1: will say before we get any anything else, that I

87
00:05:02,839 --> 00:05:06,440
Speaker 1: really enjoyed this conversation man likes as much as I've

88
00:05:06,480 --> 00:05:09,440
Speaker 1: enjoyed any other conversation I've had with anyone really on

89
00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:12,159
Speaker 1: this podcast, Maybe because I was coming off of a

90
00:05:12,279 --> 00:05:15,360
Speaker 1: very confusing time that I spent with manimal rights activists

91
00:05:15,400 --> 00:05:18,039
Speaker 1: from episode seventy. So if you haven't listened to that,

92
00:05:18,080 --> 00:05:20,960
Speaker 1: please go back. Listen to episode seventy. Hit pause right now,

93
00:05:21,040 --> 00:05:22,480
Speaker 1: Phil and I will take a break and let's you

94
00:05:22,520 --> 00:05:26,440
Speaker 1: do that, all right. Welcome back. That's a long break, Yeah,

95
00:05:26,480 --> 00:05:31,039
Speaker 1: welcome back. Uh. You've now listened to episode seventy with

96
00:05:31,080 --> 00:05:34,479
Speaker 1: Matt Johnson from Direct Action Everywhere, and know that I

97
00:05:34,560 --> 00:05:37,279
Speaker 1: kind of left that one confused, a little bit, a

98
00:05:37,320 --> 00:05:40,520
Speaker 1: little taken aback by some of the points made. Some

99
00:05:40,640 --> 00:05:44,120
Speaker 1: of the assertions around human slavery and animal rights, some

100
00:05:44,200 --> 00:05:48,200
Speaker 1: of the assertions around disabled humans and animal rights left

101
00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,640
Speaker 1: me a little bit taken aback UM and wondering if

102
00:05:51,640 --> 00:05:53,880
Speaker 1: I was doing the right thing and highlighting those ideas

103
00:05:53,920 --> 00:05:56,600
Speaker 1: I left. I will say that I left that podcast

104
00:05:56,600 --> 00:05:58,360
Speaker 1: thinking exactly that it was that is just the right

105
00:05:58,400 --> 00:06:00,719
Speaker 1: thing to do to let someone like that have my

106
00:06:00,880 --> 00:06:06,440
Speaker 1: platform to espouse those ideas. But luckily, the next day

107
00:06:06,520 --> 00:06:09,080
Speaker 1: I met with Robert C. Jones, who you're about to

108
00:06:09,080 --> 00:06:13,240
Speaker 1: hear soon, and he helped me get through some of

109
00:06:13,240 --> 00:06:15,440
Speaker 1: the issues I had and I came to a better place.

110
00:06:15,480 --> 00:06:18,200
Speaker 1: And I think this to our conversation with Robert Jones

111
00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:21,080
Speaker 1: was about as productive as they come between a hunter

112
00:06:21,080 --> 00:06:23,800
Speaker 1: and a vegan, and hopefully you'll think the same thing.

113
00:06:23,920 --> 00:06:28,200
Speaker 1: So we'll get to that in a little bit, but

114
00:06:28,240 --> 00:06:31,280
Speaker 1: before we do, I got a couple of emails that

115
00:06:31,360 --> 00:06:36,440
Speaker 1: came in regarding that last podcast. UM. One of them

116
00:06:36,480 --> 00:06:40,160
Speaker 1: just says it's from Demetrius man as SR. He said

117
00:06:40,160 --> 00:06:43,000
Speaker 1: in regards to the point made that we give disabled

118
00:06:43,040 --> 00:06:46,480
Speaker 1: people rights that they don't understand, and why wouldn't we

119
00:06:46,480 --> 00:06:48,640
Speaker 1: do the same for animals, I think we could offer

120
00:06:48,680 --> 00:06:51,120
Speaker 1: a counterpoint that the disabled humans will typically have a

121
00:06:51,120 --> 00:06:55,680
Speaker 1: caregiver or family member that does understand those rights. There

122
00:06:55,760 --> 00:06:58,280
Speaker 1: is not another animal that will understand what those rights

123
00:06:58,320 --> 00:07:01,480
Speaker 1: are and dictate them or champion for that animal. Just

124
00:07:01,560 --> 00:07:06,599
Speaker 1: my two cents. Thanks for all you do. Demetrius from Ohio. Yeah,

125
00:07:06,720 --> 00:07:08,240
Speaker 1: that's fine. What do you think about that, Phil? I

126
00:07:08,240 --> 00:07:13,560
Speaker 1: think that solves that problem. Uh, solve it. I mean

127
00:07:13,640 --> 00:07:15,520
Speaker 1: it's like, it's a good point that I don't think

128
00:07:15,600 --> 00:07:19,040
Speaker 1: was was raised last week. But yeah, it's just more

129
00:07:19,080 --> 00:07:22,960
Speaker 1: to chew on. Yeah, I think it's a yeah, yeah,

130
00:07:23,000 --> 00:07:25,560
Speaker 1: it's it's there's there's again. I think part of the

131
00:07:25,560 --> 00:07:27,560
Speaker 1: reason why I was made uncomfortable that because there is

132
00:07:27,600 --> 00:07:30,640
Speaker 1: really no logical way to dance through that that idea.

133
00:07:31,240 --> 00:07:34,280
Speaker 1: I haven't. I've thought about it a lot since that conversation.

134
00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:36,480
Speaker 1: I hadn't thought about it at all coming into it.

135
00:07:37,040 --> 00:07:40,520
Speaker 1: And so now one of the good, um, one of

136
00:07:40,560 --> 00:07:42,560
Speaker 1: the good things about the conversation, Matt Johns was I

137
00:07:42,560 --> 00:07:48,360
Speaker 1: was able to think through that assertion and I still have.

138
00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:51,239
Speaker 1: I I see no validity in it. I just don't.

139
00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:55,000
Speaker 1: So we'll move on from it. Another guy, Dennis White

140
00:07:55,000 --> 00:07:57,840
Speaker 1: wrote in and he was and he said, Hey, Ben,

141
00:07:58,000 --> 00:08:00,240
Speaker 1: I was really looking forward to this episode, and when

142
00:08:00,240 --> 00:08:02,160
Speaker 1: you announced that you were going to talk with someone

143
00:08:02,200 --> 00:08:04,440
Speaker 1: from that world, I just finished it, and I was

144
00:08:04,480 --> 00:08:07,600
Speaker 1: honestly a little let down. I think his answers were

145
00:08:07,640 --> 00:08:09,920
Speaker 1: just cookie cutter responses that he has followed away in

146
00:08:09,960 --> 00:08:13,080
Speaker 1: his brain just to use them against any argument, any

147
00:08:13,080 --> 00:08:16,120
Speaker 1: time with anyone. If he compared animal race to slavery

148
00:08:16,200 --> 00:08:18,080
Speaker 1: one more time, I was going to jump out of

149
00:08:18,080 --> 00:08:20,760
Speaker 1: my skin. I don't remember a response that he gave

150
00:08:21,760 --> 00:08:25,760
Speaker 1: that didn't involve slavery. In the end, the mental gymnastics

151
00:08:25,760 --> 00:08:27,480
Speaker 1: that man has to play just to make a point

152
00:08:27,520 --> 00:08:32,120
Speaker 1: with little or no credence must be extremely exhausting. I

153
00:08:32,120 --> 00:08:38,200
Speaker 1: don't know he goes. I can feel that frustration, and

154
00:08:38,240 --> 00:08:40,040
Speaker 1: I think a lot of folks that wrote in voiced

155
00:08:40,080 --> 00:08:43,320
Speaker 1: that around that podcast. But but at least now we

156
00:08:43,440 --> 00:08:46,040
Speaker 1: know kind of where someone like Matt Johnson is coming from,

157
00:08:46,040 --> 00:08:48,080
Speaker 1: and we can work through the things we agree with

158
00:08:48,120 --> 00:08:50,040
Speaker 1: and the things we don't. So we'll leave that behind

159
00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:55,040
Speaker 1: and we'll look forward to Robert C. Jones. But before

160
00:08:55,040 --> 00:08:57,040
Speaker 1: we do, we're gonna find We're gonna find a little

161
00:08:57,040 --> 00:09:00,599
Speaker 1: bit about Phil, the mysterious man behind the keyboard, or

162
00:09:00,600 --> 00:09:02,520
Speaker 1: it's not that's not really keyboard, is it? Phil? What is?

163
00:09:02,600 --> 00:09:04,360
Speaker 1: What would you call that? That is a mixing a

164
00:09:04,440 --> 00:09:07,840
Speaker 1: mixing board, a mixing board. Yes, And if there's gonna

165
00:09:07,840 --> 00:09:10,960
Speaker 1: be a movement around someone, then we gotta we gotta

166
00:09:11,000 --> 00:09:13,200
Speaker 1: know who they are. So Phil, we're gonna go through

167
00:09:13,200 --> 00:09:16,679
Speaker 1: your entire list story to your entire life story. All right,

168
00:09:16,720 --> 00:09:18,760
Speaker 1: I've been preparing my whole life. Where were you born?

169
00:09:19,440 --> 00:09:23,280
Speaker 1: I was born in a in a city outside of Portland, Oregon,

170
00:09:23,760 --> 00:09:28,840
Speaker 1: that's actually in Washington State called Vancouver. Whoa hot bed

171
00:09:29,240 --> 00:09:34,240
Speaker 1: for hot bed for undercover animal rights access it. Yeah,

172
00:09:34,400 --> 00:09:37,040
Speaker 1: but vegan butcher shops and the like. When you mentioned

173
00:09:37,040 --> 00:09:40,240
Speaker 1: in Portland, that's like the woke capital of the world.

174
00:09:40,880 --> 00:09:45,000
Speaker 1: And so maybe are you Maybe we just discovered the

175
00:09:45,040 --> 00:09:49,320
Speaker 1: real reason you're here. Uh okay, this is where I

176
00:09:49,360 --> 00:09:54,200
Speaker 1: grabbed the microphones in the mixing board, scream something, scream

177
00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:58,760
Speaker 1: something about it slavery, slavery, and you run away. All right,

178
00:09:58,800 --> 00:10:01,520
Speaker 1: Well that's playing out your childhood went over there in

179
00:10:01,720 --> 00:10:06,640
Speaker 1: Oregon or Washington, Washington. Yeah. The reason I related to

180
00:10:07,000 --> 00:10:11,080
Speaker 1: Portland is because whenever I say Vancouver, people automatically assume Vancouver,

181
00:10:11,160 --> 00:10:16,679
Speaker 1: British Columbia, which is the bigger, the bigger city. But Vancouver, Washington,

182
00:10:16,920 --> 00:10:19,240
Speaker 1: it's a it's a nice little suburban area. It was

183
00:10:19,240 --> 00:10:23,600
Speaker 1: like relatively um quaint childhood. No, yeah, man, I yeah.

184
00:10:23,679 --> 00:10:27,280
Speaker 1: I went to school there, came to school, uh college,

185
00:10:27,320 --> 00:10:29,760
Speaker 1: and in Bozeman, went to the film school out here.

186
00:10:30,800 --> 00:10:34,520
Speaker 1: Um and uh yeah. I worked in television after that

187
00:10:34,600 --> 00:10:37,360
Speaker 1: for almost six years. And now I'm now I'm here

188
00:10:37,360 --> 00:10:40,120
Speaker 1: and I've been lucky enough to be using my film

189
00:10:40,160 --> 00:10:43,080
Speaker 1: degree in Montana, which is that just kind of rare?

190
00:10:43,240 --> 00:10:45,600
Speaker 1: Most most of my friends fled to New York or

191
00:10:45,720 --> 00:10:47,440
Speaker 1: l A or the like. Okay, film out of the

192
00:10:47,440 --> 00:10:54,440
Speaker 1: important stuff. Okay, ready you like pas? Yeah? What what

193
00:10:54,559 --> 00:10:56,520
Speaker 1: kind we're talking? Snap, we're talking just kind of like

194
00:10:56,840 --> 00:11:02,000
Speaker 1: an ushy These are good? All right? That's a strike

195
00:11:02,080 --> 00:11:09,440
Speaker 1: against you running thing. Are you aware, Phil? If you're

196
00:11:09,480 --> 00:11:10,719
Speaker 1: gonna be a part of the show, you should be

197
00:11:10,800 --> 00:11:15,200
Speaker 1: aware that I have a I don't say I hate peas.

198
00:11:16,520 --> 00:11:20,240
Speaker 1: Where did this come from? Who are you? Yes? Showed

199
00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:24,320
Speaker 1: me show me on the pod where the hurt you? Um? Listen,

200
00:11:25,400 --> 00:11:27,520
Speaker 1: there's a thing called Shepherd's pie. You ever had that?

201
00:11:27,679 --> 00:11:30,760
Speaker 1: I enjoy Shepherd's Have you ever had Shepherd's pie with

202
00:11:30,760 --> 00:11:33,280
Speaker 1: a P in it? It's like a little it's just

203
00:11:33,320 --> 00:11:36,400
Speaker 1: like a ruinous little green ball that comes out. You

204
00:11:36,480 --> 00:11:39,520
Speaker 1: find it to be delightful. It's very delightful. I do not.

205
00:11:40,080 --> 00:11:42,760
Speaker 1: I find the Shepherd's pies like my favorite thing. And

206
00:11:42,800 --> 00:11:45,319
Speaker 1: I never understood why. There was like some bites I

207
00:11:45,480 --> 00:11:47,679
Speaker 1: enjoyed a lot, and then other bites I thought, well,

208
00:11:47,760 --> 00:11:52,800
Speaker 1: this is am I eating garbage? Am I eating poison?

209
00:11:53,160 --> 00:11:54,319
Speaker 1: And then other bites would be like, this is the

210
00:11:54,360 --> 00:11:56,760
Speaker 1: best thing I ever had. And I realized the bites

211
00:11:56,800 --> 00:11:59,400
Speaker 1: without the peas where the bites that I enjoyed, and

212
00:11:59,480 --> 00:12:01,480
Speaker 1: the bites with the piece for the pies I did

213
00:12:01,559 --> 00:12:06,440
Speaker 1: not enjoy. Now there's been some people right in uh

214
00:12:07,200 --> 00:12:11,760
Speaker 1: a feller named Simon Lester. That's his Instagram handle. At

215
00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,959
Speaker 1: least is it chating me because he's like in the

216
00:12:15,000 --> 00:12:18,000
Speaker 1: p industry, we're friends with pea farmers that I'm like

217
00:12:18,160 --> 00:12:23,240
Speaker 1: ruining their lagoon love or like there they profit from it,

218
00:12:23,280 --> 00:12:26,120
Speaker 1: and also says there's good deer hunting on pea farms

219
00:12:26,160 --> 00:12:28,760
Speaker 1: around the country. So okay, maybe I've been proven wrong.

220
00:12:28,800 --> 00:12:33,319
Speaker 1: But doesn't make me like peas anymore? Is it? Is

221
00:12:33,360 --> 00:12:36,120
Speaker 1: it a texture, a taste, a combination, all all of it?

222
00:12:36,200 --> 00:12:37,520
Speaker 1: You hate all of it, all of it. The only

223
00:12:37,559 --> 00:12:40,319
Speaker 1: thing that I don't hate is the color green, but

224
00:12:40,440 --> 00:12:43,199
Speaker 1: when applied to peas, I hate the color green. That's

225
00:12:43,200 --> 00:12:46,600
Speaker 1: a shame. I feel like the specific shade of green

226
00:12:47,400 --> 00:12:49,760
Speaker 1: that you know is a part of the pea is

227
00:12:50,320 --> 00:12:56,599
Speaker 1: it's it's bright looks, it looks nutritious and delicious, and

228
00:12:56,720 --> 00:13:00,439
Speaker 1: I would say that it's both. Oh my god. All right, Well,

229
00:13:00,520 --> 00:13:02,600
Speaker 1: moving on. So you know we're in a peak Canary

230
00:13:02,760 --> 00:13:07,800
Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, there is an entire festival in Bozeman

231
00:13:08,960 --> 00:13:15,360
Speaker 1: that is named after the p unbelievable. So I think

232
00:13:15,440 --> 00:13:18,640
Speaker 1: you're in the wrong city. It's misguided. I mean, for

233
00:13:18,760 --> 00:13:22,240
Speaker 1: sure we could agree on that, right Phil, Nope, Nope,

234
00:13:22,320 --> 00:13:27,080
Speaker 1: can agree on that. Okay, Um, bald eagle or wild turkey?

235
00:13:27,160 --> 00:13:32,199
Speaker 1: Which one would you choose? Bald eagle? Well? Are we

236
00:13:32,240 --> 00:13:35,880
Speaker 1: talking about eating not eating? No? Just in general, Like

237
00:13:35,960 --> 00:13:39,040
Speaker 1: if I put two things beside you, you would choose

238
00:13:39,040 --> 00:13:43,079
Speaker 1: the bald eagle. Okay, that's fine. Are you pro or

239
00:13:43,080 --> 00:13:50,400
Speaker 1: anti apple pie? Very pro? Boy? Wow, I think I'm

240
00:13:50,480 --> 00:13:53,760
Speaker 1: over four. What's going on? You don't? But you don't

241
00:13:53,800 --> 00:13:57,839
Speaker 1: think that like apple pie is overrated? I mean, I

242
00:13:57,960 --> 00:14:01,240
Speaker 1: just are you just eating like off the shelf grocery

243
00:14:01,280 --> 00:14:03,560
Speaker 1: store apple pies. If you know, I've had a lot

244
00:14:03,600 --> 00:14:06,880
Speaker 1: of homemade apple pies and I just don't feel. Man,

245
00:14:07,000 --> 00:14:08,800
Speaker 1: you get that all the mode, and you don't you know,

246
00:14:08,960 --> 00:14:14,599
Speaker 1: you get the perfect and that is delicious. But I

247
00:14:14,640 --> 00:14:17,280
Speaker 1: don't mind all the mode. But I do mind apple pie,

248
00:14:17,360 --> 00:14:18,959
Speaker 1: like apple pie is being built up as like this

249
00:14:19,080 --> 00:14:21,680
Speaker 1: American tradition. No I don't. I don't. I don't buy

250
00:14:21,720 --> 00:14:25,080
Speaker 1: into that. I don't be Americans apple pie now, but

251
00:14:25,960 --> 00:14:27,840
Speaker 1: it's a I think it's a very good dessert. Let

252
00:14:27,880 --> 00:14:29,720
Speaker 1: me put a few other pies out there for you. Okay,

253
00:14:30,160 --> 00:14:36,080
Speaker 1: Rhubarb pie not as good as apple? Oh my? Oh alright? Uh,

254
00:14:36,600 --> 00:14:44,160
Speaker 1: cherry pie not as good as apple. Oh ah. I'm

255
00:14:44,200 --> 00:14:46,320
Speaker 1: just thrown off now because this is not going well.

256
00:14:47,440 --> 00:14:49,960
Speaker 1: I will tell you I like the like like a

257
00:14:50,080 --> 00:14:53,280
Speaker 1: key lime. Yes, better than apple. Good? Good. There we

258
00:14:53,440 --> 00:14:57,280
Speaker 1: finally feel something. There we go. You're a taste maker, Phil. Uh.

259
00:14:58,440 --> 00:15:00,320
Speaker 1: Let's see what else I got. I'm just coming up

260
00:15:00,320 --> 00:15:02,520
Speaker 1: stuff off the flying that you like cheesecake. I do.

261
00:15:03,200 --> 00:15:08,440
Speaker 1: Are your listeners enjoying this conversation? Okay, Phil, here's another

262
00:15:08,680 --> 00:15:11,200
Speaker 1: guy that wrote in I'll find it on Instagram. But

263
00:15:11,200 --> 00:15:12,960
Speaker 1: you send me a message and it was one of

264
00:15:13,040 --> 00:15:15,520
Speaker 1: the more interesting messages he was. And then the question

265
00:15:15,600 --> 00:15:17,920
Speaker 1: just basically was do you consider your listeners when you're

266
00:15:17,960 --> 00:15:21,920
Speaker 1: making a podcast? I was. I think this conversation answers

267
00:15:21,960 --> 00:15:26,800
Speaker 1: that question. I mean, yeah, I consider that they're there.

268
00:15:27,600 --> 00:15:29,640
Speaker 1: But do I always just do? Sometimes I go off

269
00:15:29,680 --> 00:15:32,880
Speaker 1: onto terrible, weird rabbit holes. But I think that's respectable.

270
00:15:33,160 --> 00:15:35,840
Speaker 1: And I think you know the your your your true

271
00:15:35,880 --> 00:15:39,440
Speaker 1: fan base will appreciate that you know you're not catering

272
00:15:39,520 --> 00:15:42,040
Speaker 1: to them. They come to you because what you do

273
00:15:42,400 --> 00:15:45,160
Speaker 1: get what I want to talk about. Here we go, Um, okay,

274
00:15:45,320 --> 00:15:49,000
Speaker 1: what do you drive? Phil? I drive a two five

275
00:15:49,080 --> 00:15:55,600
Speaker 1: Honda Pilot? Al right, shout out the Honda. Yeah sponsor

276
00:15:55,720 --> 00:15:59,960
Speaker 1: us uh wait, hold on, speaking of sponsors, the trans

277
00:16:00,040 --> 00:16:02,600
Speaker 1: that she lined up. That's why speaking of sponsors, we're

278
00:16:02,600 --> 00:16:04,880
Speaker 1: gonna close this this part of the show out before

279
00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:06,840
Speaker 1: we get to Robert C. Jones and this this this

280
00:16:07,000 --> 00:16:09,520
Speaker 1: Roberts Jones. The reason why I wanted to talk about

281
00:16:09,560 --> 00:16:11,360
Speaker 1: peas and apple pie and what we're about to talk

282
00:16:11,360 --> 00:16:15,800
Speaker 1: about because the Robbers Jones interview gets deep as you

283
00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:20,200
Speaker 1: would imagine me and a philosopher for professional philosopher own

284
00:16:20,280 --> 00:16:23,600
Speaker 1: veganism might get it got real conceptional and real deep.

285
00:16:23,640 --> 00:16:24,880
Speaker 1: So we gotta I want to give you guys a

286
00:16:24,920 --> 00:16:30,680
Speaker 1: little bit of candy before your vegetables. Here peace peace. Um.

287
00:16:31,760 --> 00:16:36,400
Speaker 1: There's this product out there in the lexicon of sparkly

288
00:16:36,480 --> 00:16:42,400
Speaker 1: drinks called white Claw. And now it was maybe about

289
00:16:42,400 --> 00:16:44,120
Speaker 1: three weeks ago. I had no idea what white claw was.

290
00:16:44,960 --> 00:16:47,560
Speaker 1: I knew that there was a billboard outside of Bowsman

291
00:16:47,640 --> 00:16:49,680
Speaker 1: that had white Claw, and there was like a I

292
00:16:49,720 --> 00:16:52,040
Speaker 1: think it was like a real nice looking young lady

293
00:16:52,880 --> 00:16:57,040
Speaker 1: looking happy. She was looking really, I'm in fit tan happy.

294
00:16:57,640 --> 00:17:00,160
Speaker 1: It sounds like an advertisement. Yeah, And I thought up,

295
00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:04,119
Speaker 1: m hmm, maybe if I drank that I could be fit,

296
00:17:04,240 --> 00:17:07,160
Speaker 1: tann and happy. And so I was at a buddy's house.

297
00:17:08,400 --> 00:17:12,159
Speaker 1: His name's Omar, and he started whipping out these white claws.

298
00:17:13,320 --> 00:17:15,800
Speaker 1: And there's a myriad of flavors. I don't know how

299
00:17:15,840 --> 00:17:20,280
Speaker 1: many flavors are a white claw endless. They're adding new

300
00:17:20,320 --> 00:17:23,440
Speaker 1: ones every day or so I hear. And I think

301
00:17:23,440 --> 00:17:25,640
Speaker 1: if I might have been sitting around a fire when

302
00:17:25,680 --> 00:17:30,200
Speaker 1: I first put my lips on this, I mean, just

303
00:17:30,760 --> 00:17:36,040
Speaker 1: astonishingly tasty beverage that is known as white Claw. Well

304
00:17:36,040 --> 00:17:38,280
Speaker 1: do you do you want to explain to the listeners

305
00:17:38,400 --> 00:17:41,080
Speaker 1: what white Claw is if they haven't, I haven't had

306
00:17:41,119 --> 00:17:45,119
Speaker 1: the pleasure. Again, I don't really if they look it up,

307
00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,119
Speaker 1: I've got time to explain everything to you. But now,

308
00:17:48,280 --> 00:17:51,959
Speaker 1: white Claw is a drink, is a beverage. Um, let

309
00:17:52,000 --> 00:17:53,720
Speaker 1: me just look up. Let me just go to its website.

310
00:17:53,720 --> 00:17:55,119
Speaker 1: Because I don't know a lot about I'm not gonna lie.

311
00:17:55,160 --> 00:17:58,800
Speaker 1: I only know that it's delicious and refreshing on a

312
00:17:59,720 --> 00:18:02,480
Speaker 1: hot summer's day. It is what the industry calls a

313
00:18:02,600 --> 00:18:06,400
Speaker 1: spiked seltzer, I think is the term. This is being

314
00:18:06,480 --> 00:18:10,000
Speaker 1: thrown around hard Seltzer. Hard Seltzer made pure. That's five

315
00:18:10,040 --> 00:18:13,840
Speaker 1: percent alcohol bi volume, which is more than four and

316
00:18:13,960 --> 00:18:17,520
Speaker 1: less than six hundred calories I think per thing, and

317
00:18:17,600 --> 00:18:21,200
Speaker 1: only two grams of carbs, which is what I want

318
00:18:21,240 --> 00:18:24,359
Speaker 1: out of my booze. Um. So that's that's it. I mean,

319
00:18:24,400 --> 00:18:27,240
Speaker 1: it's and it's uh, it tastes like a little taste

320
00:18:27,280 --> 00:18:31,080
Speaker 1: like alcohol water. It's yeah, it's like a Lacroix with

321
00:18:31,200 --> 00:18:34,399
Speaker 1: a little a little a little friendly handshake. Yeah, I

322
00:18:34,440 --> 00:18:38,399
Speaker 1: mean it's it's it's like how would you yeah, so like,

323
00:18:38,680 --> 00:18:41,480
Speaker 1: how would you describe it? Well, it's you know, it's yeah,

324
00:18:41,520 --> 00:18:45,200
Speaker 1: it's like that Lacroix Seltzer water type. You know, it's

325
00:18:45,560 --> 00:18:48,840
Speaker 1: completely it's there's no sugar, well besides the alcohol, there's

326
00:18:48,880 --> 00:18:52,520
Speaker 1: no added sugar or anything like that. Um, it's not flavored,

327
00:18:52,840 --> 00:18:57,160
Speaker 1: naturally flavored essenced Uh, you know, just trying to watch

328
00:18:57,680 --> 00:19:00,280
Speaker 1: the calories. I think it's a good option the hot

329
00:19:00,320 --> 00:19:03,840
Speaker 1: summer's day. Uh, I am. I haven't told you this yet.

330
00:19:03,880 --> 00:19:06,760
Speaker 1: I am actually a very big white cloth fan as well.

331
00:19:07,040 --> 00:19:09,240
Speaker 1: I am a proponent. I think this is a good product.

332
00:19:09,720 --> 00:19:12,720
Speaker 1: This is it's a great product. It's a great product

333
00:19:13,520 --> 00:19:16,719
Speaker 1: because there are so many now, so many different brands

334
00:19:17,080 --> 00:19:19,400
Speaker 1: are and you know, companies are making their own version.

335
00:19:19,440 --> 00:19:21,800
Speaker 1: You know, actually like big craft breweries are making their

336
00:19:21,840 --> 00:19:25,400
Speaker 1: own hard selters now because beer isn't selling as well,

337
00:19:25,920 --> 00:19:29,520
Speaker 1: and so like a local big Sky brewery Ada, Missoula,

338
00:19:29,600 --> 00:19:33,000
Speaker 1: just started making making their own version. It's it's it's hot,

339
00:19:33,320 --> 00:19:36,359
Speaker 1: it's popular. Yeah. I was told a couple of times

340
00:19:36,600 --> 00:19:38,160
Speaker 1: I was posting a lot on the internet about white

341
00:19:38,160 --> 00:19:40,600
Speaker 1: clothes trying to get sponsored. They didn't, I mean they

342
00:19:40,640 --> 00:19:43,000
Speaker 1: didn't yet. They haven't yet. Maybe they'll hear this. They

343
00:19:43,040 --> 00:19:46,280
Speaker 1: haven't yet responded to my many d ms on Instagram.

344
00:19:46,440 --> 00:19:48,800
Speaker 1: Okay are you are you verified on Instagram? Do you

345
00:19:48,840 --> 00:19:51,360
Speaker 1: have that little blue checkmark? I think that might help

346
00:19:51,400 --> 00:19:52,920
Speaker 1: you out? Do you think so? Yeah? I think so.

347
00:19:53,040 --> 00:19:55,760
Speaker 1: I think you could get verified? You think so? Yeah?

348
00:19:55,800 --> 00:19:57,680
Speaker 1: Have you have? You We don't have to you don't

349
00:19:57,680 --> 00:19:58,840
Speaker 1: have to talk about it, but I think you should

350
00:19:58,840 --> 00:20:01,000
Speaker 1: try to get verified. And I think white Cloud would

351
00:20:01,040 --> 00:20:02,720
Speaker 1: be much more. I had to check who they like,

352
00:20:02,760 --> 00:20:05,200
Speaker 1: who is this check marked fellow? I think they would

353
00:20:05,200 --> 00:20:07,879
Speaker 1: be crestfallen. They's like, oh no, he's not worth the

354
00:20:07,920 --> 00:20:09,560
Speaker 1: crap a you're worth the check or they would they

355
00:20:09,560 --> 00:20:11,440
Speaker 1: probably don't even look. You know, there's so much competition.

356
00:20:11,480 --> 00:20:13,920
Speaker 1: I think they'd take the advertising. I think they'd take

357
00:20:13,960 --> 00:20:16,840
Speaker 1: this thing. So yeah, all right, well listen guys, I'm

358
00:20:16,880 --> 00:20:21,359
Speaker 1: gonna bleach my hair start wearing some pastel colors. M

359
00:20:21,760 --> 00:20:23,840
Speaker 1: I feel like that would go appropriately with my white claw.

360
00:20:24,520 --> 00:20:28,800
Speaker 1: C Yeah, some like Sperry like get that yacht look going.

361
00:20:29,200 --> 00:20:31,520
Speaker 1: I think, yeah, the white Claw is kind of like

362
00:20:32,320 --> 00:20:34,520
Speaker 1: the yacht of well, it has a whole water theme.

363
00:20:34,520 --> 00:20:35,840
Speaker 1: I think a white claw that's like a name of

364
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:38,920
Speaker 1: a kind of wave. Right, It's get that white Cap

365
00:20:39,480 --> 00:20:45,000
Speaker 1: white Claws. Look at their label. Hey, you've you've enlightened me.

366
00:20:45,680 --> 00:20:48,919
Speaker 1: I've you know, all no laws when you're drinking claws

367
00:20:49,000 --> 00:20:53,200
Speaker 1: man there, see look at that. Why aren't they paying

368
00:20:53,240 --> 00:20:59,960
Speaker 1: you already? Anyway, we've we've digressed way far away. Anyway,

369
00:21:00,359 --> 00:21:02,040
Speaker 1: if you're listening to this and you are happy to

370
00:21:02,080 --> 00:21:05,199
Speaker 1: be employed at a little company called white Claw, hit

371
00:21:05,280 --> 00:21:07,080
Speaker 1: me up t C at the media dot Com. We'd

372
00:21:07,119 --> 00:21:12,240
Speaker 1: love to discuss a sponsorship package that includes me get

373
00:21:12,320 --> 00:21:16,160
Speaker 1: my hands on a bunch of free white Claw. Yeah.

374
00:21:16,160 --> 00:21:17,639
Speaker 1: And I think since I was a guest on this

375
00:21:17,760 --> 00:21:20,919
Speaker 1: episode where you, um, there would be I mean, were

376
00:21:20,960 --> 00:21:24,120
Speaker 1: you introduced this idea, there would clearly be some overflow.

377
00:21:25,920 --> 00:21:27,920
Speaker 1: That's all your position. Now we could get a little

378
00:21:27,920 --> 00:21:30,399
Speaker 1: white Claw fridge to go underneath your board over there

379
00:21:30,400 --> 00:21:34,359
Speaker 1: in the podcast studio. Uh yes, or even just on

380
00:21:34,480 --> 00:21:39,040
Speaker 1: tap maybe. Oh why do they do that? We should say,

381
00:21:39,119 --> 00:21:42,200
Speaker 1: like we're under extreme conditions here at Meat Eater. The

382
00:21:42,359 --> 00:21:47,640
Speaker 1: podcast studio is about five degrees right now. I could

383
00:21:47,680 --> 00:21:50,320
Speaker 1: go on for another twenty minutes about the the adventures

384
00:21:50,720 --> 00:21:53,800
Speaker 1: that that I've been going through to um make this

385
00:21:53,920 --> 00:22:00,280
Speaker 1: podcast studio you know, sound proof, sound friendly and A

386
00:22:00,320 --> 00:22:01,920
Speaker 1: lot of that has to do with the h VAC

387
00:22:01,960 --> 00:22:05,120
Speaker 1: air conditioning system, which right now is pumping out way

388
00:22:05,200 --> 00:22:08,040
Speaker 1: too much cold air. Oh, I got an idea where crowdsource. Okay,

389
00:22:08,080 --> 00:22:11,800
Speaker 1: here we go. We got we got an h VAC.

390
00:22:11,880 --> 00:22:15,240
Speaker 1: If we have any h VAC professionals and or um

391
00:22:15,920 --> 00:22:22,080
Speaker 1: insulation professionals and or park A companies out there listening,

392
00:22:22,760 --> 00:22:24,920
Speaker 1: we could use help in all those categories. Because it

393
00:22:25,040 --> 00:22:27,399
Speaker 1: is like, I'm of course wearing flip flops? Are you

394
00:22:27,440 --> 00:22:30,600
Speaker 1: bring I'm not? No, No, you're wearing sweet? What kind

395
00:22:30,600 --> 00:22:32,160
Speaker 1: of shoes are you wearing? That could also be part

396
00:22:32,200 --> 00:22:35,200
Speaker 1: of the you know, they're just like like a trail

397
00:22:35,280 --> 00:22:39,640
Speaker 1: running shoe. Um, I don't who makes them. You don't

398
00:22:39,640 --> 00:22:42,359
Speaker 1: even know. I don't even know. Let let's see this

399
00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,880
Speaker 1: is this is the problem here. They look well worn, Phil,

400
00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:50,560
Speaker 1: I've used them a lot UM's definitely exercising New Balance

401
00:22:50,760 --> 00:22:54,280
Speaker 1: a lot um. You can any we We'll just say

402
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,359
Speaker 1: they're New Balance shoutouts they are. They are not sponsor us.

403
00:22:57,640 --> 00:22:59,640
Speaker 1: If we get sponsored by New Balance and white Cloth, dude,

404
00:22:59,640 --> 00:23:03,879
Speaker 1: we would be the new Jobs. Buddy. I feel like

405
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:06,520
Speaker 1: he's he's kind of the perpetual New Balance sponsor even

406
00:23:06,600 --> 00:23:12,439
Speaker 1: in the afterlife. All right, here we go. Um, anything

407
00:23:12,480 --> 00:23:15,520
Speaker 1: else I missed? No? Um? Uh you know, just for

408
00:23:15,640 --> 00:23:19,200
Speaker 1: future reference. You know, uh, I know you talk about

409
00:23:19,240 --> 00:23:21,240
Speaker 1: Game of Thrones on this show, even though yeah, the

410
00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,000
Speaker 1: show is over. I heard a story about you trying

411
00:23:24,080 --> 00:23:27,680
Speaker 1: to explain it to Steve and then him being almost offended.

412
00:23:27,840 --> 00:23:31,120
Speaker 1: He just didn't even doesn't like serial dramas, didn't understand

413
00:23:31,160 --> 00:23:33,080
Speaker 1: the dragons. No, but if you ever want to go

414
00:23:33,200 --> 00:23:36,239
Speaker 1: into a throne's deep dive on this show, I've been

415
00:23:36,240 --> 00:23:38,960
Speaker 1: asked several times. I've been asked several times since that

416
00:23:39,040 --> 00:23:42,320
Speaker 1: episode because people don't always listen every week, so they'll

417
00:23:42,359 --> 00:23:44,719
Speaker 1: like catching up. They'll be like five weeks behind. Did

418
00:23:44,800 --> 00:23:46,879
Speaker 1: you comment on the ending of Game of Thrones? I

419
00:23:46,960 --> 00:23:50,959
Speaker 1: say no, because it was terrible. I mean maybe the worst,

420
00:23:52,440 --> 00:23:54,679
Speaker 1: Like the last two seasons were just not they were

421
00:23:54,760 --> 00:23:57,680
Speaker 1: terrible television. I mean just the writing just went off

422
00:23:57,800 --> 00:24:00,520
Speaker 1: the rails that the acting went all the rails, proc

423
00:24:00,760 --> 00:24:03,159
Speaker 1: the actors were reading the reading the scripts, like what

424
00:24:03,520 --> 00:24:04,959
Speaker 1: am I happy to? What do I have to say now?

425
00:24:05,720 --> 00:24:08,520
Speaker 1: Like the last episode was just I thought I read

426
00:24:08,560 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: a spoiler of that last episode and I thought it

427
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,200
Speaker 1: was a joke. I thought, well, that's not, that's not

428
00:24:14,359 --> 00:24:16,879
Speaker 1: They're not gonna do that brand as the King are

429
00:24:16,880 --> 00:24:19,119
Speaker 1: you talking about? Didn't you hear Terry and he has

430
00:24:19,119 --> 00:24:23,639
Speaker 1: a good story. That's like some ridiculous Hollywood writer that

431
00:24:23,840 --> 00:24:28,240
Speaker 1: had to save the crappy storyline. Uh well, see, here's

432
00:24:28,240 --> 00:24:29,840
Speaker 1: the thing. He doesn't even have a good story. He

433
00:24:30,520 --> 00:24:32,760
Speaker 1: was one whole season the show. He wasn't even in

434
00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:39,879
Speaker 1: uh huh what he was underground, wheeling towards the learning

435
00:24:39,960 --> 00:24:42,639
Speaker 1: about he's becoming. I don't know if you heard he's

436
00:24:42,680 --> 00:24:45,159
Speaker 1: the three eyed raven. Now wells like you will never

437
00:24:45,240 --> 00:24:47,120
Speaker 1: walk again, but you will fly. I'm thinking this two

438
00:24:47,240 --> 00:24:50,280
Speaker 1: is gonna be work into a Dragon. No, didn't work

439
00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:53,080
Speaker 1: into a dragon or into a raven and just watched

440
00:24:53,119 --> 00:24:56,720
Speaker 1: the Battle of which watched here's a share. The last

441
00:24:56,760 --> 00:24:59,440
Speaker 1: season had many problems. I am not. I did not

442
00:25:00,040 --> 00:25:02,760
Speaker 1: spies it. I think it had good moments. Of course

443
00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:05,920
Speaker 1: it did that were overall. Of course it did plagued. Yeah,

444
00:25:06,000 --> 00:25:10,159
Speaker 1: that's a condensed last two seasons. I think if they

445
00:25:10,200 --> 00:25:13,720
Speaker 1: would have honestly stretched it out, Phil, that's like saying, well,

446
00:25:13,800 --> 00:25:16,040
Speaker 1: my car drives most of the time, but it broke

447
00:25:16,080 --> 00:25:20,000
Speaker 1: down six times last week. It's there's so many big, huge,

448
00:25:20,280 --> 00:25:25,640
Speaker 1: fat problems. I'm not gonna argue, but this this could

449
00:25:25,680 --> 00:25:27,680
Speaker 1: go on a while, Yeah, it could. We may, we

450
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:30,639
Speaker 1: may come back to this. We gotta get to we

451
00:25:30,720 --> 00:25:34,280
Speaker 1: gotta go to Berkeley, we gotta get to Robert C. Jones. Again.

452
00:25:34,600 --> 00:25:36,320
Speaker 1: This is a big time commitment, folks. You're gonna be

453
00:25:36,400 --> 00:25:39,000
Speaker 1: with us for another two hours. So um, I'm not

454
00:25:39,080 --> 00:25:41,800
Speaker 1: apologizing for that, but just get get prepared. Maybe take

455
00:25:41,840 --> 00:25:44,120
Speaker 1: a break after this segment is over. Crack a white claw,

456
00:25:44,200 --> 00:25:47,000
Speaker 1: crack a white claw. Get cozy by the fire. If

457
00:25:47,040 --> 00:25:49,920
Speaker 1: there's a beach around, go to the beach, sit and

458
00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: get one of those chase lounges. Get in there. Um,

459
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:56,560
Speaker 1: I get ready because this is going to get If

460
00:25:56,600 --> 00:26:00,200
Speaker 1: you thought last week, if he's at last week was

461
00:26:01,160 --> 00:26:04,920
Speaker 1: a deep and interesting conversation about kind of the ideological

462
00:26:05,000 --> 00:26:08,840
Speaker 1: differences between animal rights slash vegan folks and US hunters,

463
00:26:08,960 --> 00:26:13,040
Speaker 1: this one is much much deeper. And again I'll say

464
00:26:13,040 --> 00:26:15,960
Speaker 1: before we get to it that Robert Jones, I hope

465
00:26:15,960 --> 00:26:17,399
Speaker 1: we can do more with him. I would take this

466
00:26:17,520 --> 00:26:21,320
Speaker 1: conversation we had on the road, um and let anyone

467
00:26:21,440 --> 00:26:24,080
Speaker 1: hear it live record, it doesn't matter. I think it's

468
00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:26,960
Speaker 1: an important one. I think he is a pretty open

469
00:26:27,000 --> 00:26:30,840
Speaker 1: minded guy. And and he did he compliment. He called

470
00:26:30,880 --> 00:26:32,760
Speaker 1: me brilliant one time in the podcast. That's probably why

471
00:26:32,760 --> 00:26:37,360
Speaker 1: I like him so much. And so, UM, I really

472
00:26:37,400 --> 00:26:39,720
Speaker 1: hope you enjoy it. I really enjoyed it. I hope

473
00:26:39,720 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 1: to have Robert back, but until then, enjoy this two

474
00:26:43,560 --> 00:26:51,960
Speaker 1: hours Vegan the Hunter in Berkeley, California. I guess I

475
00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:59,040
Speaker 1: grew up on an alder road. Robert, how's it going, Hey,

476
00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,880
Speaker 1: Vn's good to see it, good to be here. Yeah,

477
00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:04,800
Speaker 1: it's good to meet you too. I have been reading

478
00:27:05,320 --> 00:27:07,200
Speaker 1: a lot about you and watching some of your videos

479
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: and and going deep into the category of veganism. And

480
00:27:14,400 --> 00:27:16,880
Speaker 1: we were just talking before we hit record. I'm I'm

481
00:27:17,080 --> 00:27:20,320
Speaker 1: fresh off the heels of an interview with Matt Johnson

482
00:27:20,480 --> 00:27:24,359
Speaker 1: from Direct Action Everywhere. Learning about species is m and

483
00:27:24,480 --> 00:27:28,600
Speaker 1: learning about um animal personhood, things of that nature. So

484
00:27:28,720 --> 00:27:31,080
Speaker 1: my my mind is let's forgive me, my mind is

485
00:27:31,119 --> 00:27:33,960
Speaker 1: spinning right now. UM. But I do, as we were

486
00:27:34,000 --> 00:27:37,080
Speaker 1: saying before, I do very much want to learn about

487
00:27:37,119 --> 00:27:40,720
Speaker 1: these things that I haven't open curiosity. There's absolutely nothing

488
00:27:41,600 --> 00:27:43,520
Speaker 1: about me being a hunter in a mediator that makes

489
00:27:43,560 --> 00:27:45,840
Speaker 1: me want to know less about this or fight against it.

490
00:27:46,400 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 1: I'm I have a legitimate, open curiosity about what you

491
00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:53,440
Speaker 1: do and what Matt does. So before we get going,

492
00:27:53,600 --> 00:27:57,200
Speaker 1: give us a quick rundown of of your background, um

493
00:27:57,960 --> 00:28:01,880
Speaker 1: in both philosophy and then also veganism as it were. Well,

494
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:04,440
Speaker 1: I can tell you, and the short version of the

495
00:28:04,480 --> 00:28:08,600
Speaker 1: story is that I know I grew up in a basic,

496
00:28:08,960 --> 00:28:13,000
Speaker 1: basic American household, meet three times a day. And um,

497
00:28:13,520 --> 00:28:15,680
Speaker 1: my mother, she would always tease me because after I

498
00:28:15,800 --> 00:28:20,879
Speaker 1: became vegan, she would say to me, I remember when

499
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,439
Speaker 1: you were a teenager and I didn't serve meat at

500
00:28:23,480 --> 00:28:25,800
Speaker 1: a at a meal, and you would say, I would

501
00:28:25,800 --> 00:28:28,120
Speaker 1: say to her, mom, this isn't a real meal. You're

502
00:28:28,119 --> 00:28:30,320
Speaker 1: supposed to have meat at a meal. So I so, now,

503
00:28:30,560 --> 00:28:33,880
Speaker 1: of course she would now she looks at me, but um, yeah,

504
00:28:33,880 --> 00:28:36,880
Speaker 1: So I grew up in that, you know, basic American lifestyle,

505
00:28:37,800 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: grow growing up on the East Coast in Philly, and

506
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:44,320
Speaker 1: then I moved to um To l A. And I

507
00:28:44,440 --> 00:28:46,520
Speaker 1: had a friend who worked at a natural food store.

508
00:28:47,080 --> 00:28:48,920
Speaker 1: And the first thing that happened was he showed me

509
00:28:48,960 --> 00:28:52,560
Speaker 1: a little brochure of a veal crate. You and I

510
00:28:52,640 --> 00:28:54,480
Speaker 1: eat a lot of veal because that was somewhat part

511
00:28:54,520 --> 00:28:59,000
Speaker 1: of my food, the old cut lance reveal Scalapini called.

512
00:28:59,040 --> 00:29:02,120
Speaker 1: My mother was Italian, so um. So I was like, oh,

513
00:29:02,160 --> 00:29:04,000
Speaker 1: I had no idea. They put these little things in

514
00:29:04,040 --> 00:29:07,480
Speaker 1: little creates, and so that sort of planted a seed

515
00:29:07,520 --> 00:29:09,600
Speaker 1: in my head. And I was like, oh man, I

516
00:29:09,720 --> 00:29:11,080
Speaker 1: kind of feel bad, like I don't know if I

517
00:29:11,080 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 1: could eat view anymore. So that was the first exposure.

518
00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:17,840
Speaker 1: And then I read a book called Diet for a

519
00:29:17,920 --> 00:29:21,480
Speaker 1: New America written by John Robbins. I don't know if

520
00:29:21,520 --> 00:29:24,840
Speaker 1: you know John Robins. John Robbins, he was the heir

521
00:29:24,960 --> 00:29:28,440
Speaker 1: to the Baskin Robbins ice cream throne. His father and

522
00:29:28,520 --> 00:29:31,920
Speaker 1: his uncle started basking Robbins, and at some point in

523
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:35,840
Speaker 1: his development he decided to be a vegan and animal

524
00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:39,280
Speaker 1: rights person, and he he actually renounced. He turned down

525
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,560
Speaker 1: the family business and moved to Hawaiian and grew plants.

526
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,880
Speaker 1: But anyway, he wrote a book called Diet for New America,

527
00:29:46,160 --> 00:29:50,280
Speaker 1: and and really I had one of those like Road

528
00:29:50,400 --> 00:29:53,280
Speaker 1: to Damascus moments, like the scales fell from my eyes.

529
00:29:53,320 --> 00:29:55,640
Speaker 1: I read this book in like two days. It just

530
00:29:55,800 --> 00:29:58,360
Speaker 1: laid out like, here's the animal rights argument, here's the

531
00:29:58,440 --> 00:30:01,200
Speaker 1: environmental argument, here's the all of the argument. And I

532
00:30:01,320 --> 00:30:03,440
Speaker 1: just I was it. I was just like, this makes

533
00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,000
Speaker 1: perfect sense. I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. I

534
00:30:06,080 --> 00:30:08,960
Speaker 1: want to decrease it. And I just on the spot

535
00:30:09,520 --> 00:30:12,160
Speaker 1: kind of became a vegan. Yeah, how old were you then?

536
00:30:12,440 --> 00:30:15,560
Speaker 1: It's in my twenties, the early twenties. Yeah, And I

537
00:30:15,680 --> 00:30:18,960
Speaker 1: think we're talking about again before we recorded that there

538
00:30:19,160 --> 00:30:23,040
Speaker 1: is there is this idea that that that I want

539
00:30:23,080 --> 00:30:25,760
Speaker 1: to fight against that all, you know, like you kind

540
00:30:25,800 --> 00:30:29,000
Speaker 1: of fringe, you assign that fringe motive to all the

541
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:31,360
Speaker 1: thing you don't agree with. And I think it's good

542
00:30:31,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 1: to hear your story and other stories about how you

543
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:35,560
Speaker 1: came to this, to one you know what it's like

544
00:30:35,680 --> 00:30:37,960
Speaker 1: to eat, mean, you understand what it tastes like. You didn't.

545
00:30:37,960 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 1: You didn't grow up in a liberal incubator in l A.

546
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,160
Speaker 1: And Jane and Jane Fonda is not your your mother,

547
00:30:43,560 --> 00:30:45,800
Speaker 1: so like she did sit in our tank a few

548
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:51,280
Speaker 1: times outside the house. Well, well you know, let's see

549
00:30:51,320 --> 00:30:55,720
Speaker 1: thats reaffirms at all vegans, No Jane Fonda, but yeah,

550
00:30:55,800 --> 00:30:58,400
Speaker 1: I mean for us, I wanted to set that up.

551
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,760
Speaker 1: You know who you are and how you came to

552
00:31:00,840 --> 00:31:04,600
Speaker 1: what you believe, because I feel very strongly that my

553
00:31:04,800 --> 00:31:07,640
Speaker 1: path came to my passion a certain way, and you

554
00:31:07,920 --> 00:31:11,160
Speaker 1: you came in your own You got to your passion

555
00:31:11,200 --> 00:31:13,600
Speaker 1: in your own way. Um, and your and your studies

556
00:31:13,600 --> 00:31:15,440
Speaker 1: in your own way. So I mean it's it's it's

557
00:31:15,880 --> 00:31:19,000
Speaker 1: critical to that, to that understanding your story is critical.

558
00:31:19,080 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 1: I think for hunters to understand, well, I have hunted

559
00:31:21,640 --> 00:31:28,280
Speaker 1: too as a teenager. As a teenager, I hunted just

560
00:31:28,440 --> 00:31:31,480
Speaker 1: locally in Pennsylvan. You know Pennsylvania obviously, hold on a second,

561
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:37,719
Speaker 1: Oh yeah, yeah, you take a drink of water. Believe

562
00:31:37,760 --> 00:31:41,440
Speaker 1: it in me, Like the vegan guy can't. He's unhealthy

563
00:31:42,320 --> 00:31:45,800
Speaker 1: throat his drive because he doesn't have twelve So you know,

564
00:31:45,880 --> 00:31:49,680
Speaker 1: as you know, Pennsylvania's a hunting state, and I grew up, Um,

565
00:31:50,120 --> 00:31:51,960
Speaker 1: you know, people would go up to like Scranton and

566
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:54,080
Speaker 1: they would go hunting, and deer hunting is a big,

567
00:31:54,240 --> 00:31:57,960
Speaker 1: big deal. And um so I did I've actually killed

568
00:31:57,960 --> 00:32:02,239
Speaker 1: animals with a gun? Yeah, so mm hmm. I mean

569
00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,720
Speaker 1: I do feel bad about it now when I think

570
00:32:03,720 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 1: about it, as a little innocent I just they were

571
00:32:06,880 --> 00:32:08,960
Speaker 1: just lit. They were like sitting ducks. They had no

572
00:32:09,160 --> 00:32:11,200
Speaker 1: idea that I was ready to kill them. And so

573
00:32:11,480 --> 00:32:13,200
Speaker 1: but I was doing it as a teenager where I

574
00:32:13,280 --> 00:32:15,920
Speaker 1: was like it was fun, like I got I got

575
00:32:16,400 --> 00:32:18,920
Speaker 1: a certain kind of gratification from it. So I do

576
00:32:19,080 --> 00:32:22,760
Speaker 1: have that in my background as far as what happened

577
00:32:22,800 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 1: with me, Like how did I end up, say, being

578
00:32:25,560 --> 00:32:29,280
Speaker 1: a professor who's writing, you know, professional philosophy on animal

579
00:32:29,400 --> 00:32:32,120
Speaker 1: rights after I did that whole you know, kind of

580
00:32:32,240 --> 00:32:35,200
Speaker 1: vegan thing. I read that book. Then I started to

581
00:32:35,800 --> 00:32:39,400
Speaker 1: Then I discovered that there was actually there were there

582
00:32:39,400 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 1: were philosophical arguments that would undergird these beliefs. So rather

583
00:32:44,920 --> 00:32:47,640
Speaker 1: than saying something like, you know, animals are like you

584
00:32:47,880 --> 00:32:50,760
Speaker 1: and they have rights and stuff, when I started to

585
00:32:50,880 --> 00:32:53,520
Speaker 1: dig deep into it, and I started to read sort

586
00:32:53,520 --> 00:32:56,440
Speaker 1: of the classics, which would be Peter Singer Animal Liberation

587
00:32:56,520 --> 00:32:59,520
Speaker 1: and Tom Reagan The Case for Animal Rights. Then I

588
00:32:59,600 --> 00:33:02,120
Speaker 1: started it into like the nitty gritty because I've always

589
00:33:02,200 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 1: kind of been analytical. And so then I went to

590
00:33:04,960 --> 00:33:09,239
Speaker 1: graduate school and I, um, I just want to get

591
00:33:09,280 --> 00:33:13,800
Speaker 1: a master's. But my professors, they they encouraged me to

592
00:33:13,840 --> 00:33:16,720
Speaker 1: do the PhD thing, and you know, I'm a blue

593
00:33:16,760 --> 00:33:19,720
Speaker 1: collar guy. I applied to a bunch of schools and

594
00:33:20,080 --> 00:33:22,120
Speaker 1: I got a phone call one day from Stanford saying

595
00:33:22,200 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: You're in, you know, the PhD program. And I was like,

596
00:33:25,520 --> 00:33:27,640
Speaker 1: I was like, wait, I know there's a lot of

597
00:33:27,720 --> 00:33:31,600
Speaker 1: Robert Jones, isn't Maybe there's another Robert Jones. There was

598
00:33:31,680 --> 00:33:33,600
Speaker 1: no way I did it. So that was like they

599
00:33:33,680 --> 00:33:36,040
Speaker 1: made me an offer I couldn't refuse. So when I

600
00:33:36,160 --> 00:33:40,760
Speaker 1: went there, I you know, animal rights in the even

601
00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:44,320
Speaker 1: in the in the world of philosophy, it's itself fringe.

602
00:33:44,360 --> 00:33:46,120
Speaker 1: There's not a lot of philosophers who do this work.

603
00:33:46,320 --> 00:33:48,880
Speaker 1: I mean, there's more now, but this was in nine

604
00:33:49,120 --> 00:33:51,880
Speaker 1: nine years is and this is all It's like I

605
00:33:51,920 --> 00:33:55,000
Speaker 1: got accepted to you know, it's like twenty nineteen years ago.

606
00:33:55,240 --> 00:33:58,760
Speaker 1: So so what I'm getting at is that um is

607
00:33:58,840 --> 00:34:01,880
Speaker 1: that at the time, I thought, I'm just gonna write

608
00:34:01,920 --> 00:34:05,200
Speaker 1: my dissertation. My dissertation is called the Moral Significance of

609
00:34:05,240 --> 00:34:08,800
Speaker 1: Animal Cognition. So I really got into like the moral

610
00:34:09,440 --> 00:34:13,640
Speaker 1: the relationship between cognitive properties of non humans and how

611
00:34:13,719 --> 00:34:16,200
Speaker 1: we value them. That was something I got really obsessed with.

612
00:34:17,040 --> 00:34:20,239
Speaker 1: But what I decided was I thought, there's no one

613
00:34:20,480 --> 00:34:22,640
Speaker 1: whoever went to Stanford in the philosophy department who did

614
00:34:22,680 --> 00:34:25,560
Speaker 1: animal rights. So I'm going to be that person. And

615
00:34:26,160 --> 00:34:29,120
Speaker 1: I'm going to use the cash of you know, West

616
00:34:29,200 --> 00:34:32,719
Speaker 1: Coast Ivy to kind of legitimate in a certain way

617
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:37,480
Speaker 1: aspects of animal rights. So so that's how that's so

618
00:34:37,560 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 1: I've been doing that now for you know, I've got

619
00:34:39,600 --> 00:34:41,799
Speaker 1: this job in two thousand and eight, so it's been

620
00:34:41,840 --> 00:34:44,880
Speaker 1: eleven years since i've been you know, quote professional philosopher.

621
00:34:44,960 --> 00:34:51,480
Speaker 1: And yeah, it's I mean, I I think there's a

622
00:34:51,560 --> 00:34:54,640
Speaker 1: lot there. I think I think the issue of the

623
00:34:54,840 --> 00:34:59,520
Speaker 1: moral sort of the moral status of non human animals,

624
00:34:59,560 --> 00:35:03,120
Speaker 1: it's a really complicated issue. It's super complicated, and I think,

625
00:35:03,239 --> 00:35:06,799
Speaker 1: you know, I'm drawn to those complicated issues. I think

626
00:35:06,840 --> 00:35:09,480
Speaker 1: that's where the meat of our humanity and like the

627
00:35:09,600 --> 00:35:13,120
Speaker 1: things that we're really tugging at us, even as yeah,

628
00:35:13,160 --> 00:35:17,480
Speaker 1: I'm just trying to make you squirm tofu kill stuff too.

629
00:35:19,760 --> 00:35:23,359
Speaker 1: We'll get there and get there. Um. I just think

630
00:35:23,920 --> 00:35:27,040
Speaker 1: these issues are you know, I'll keep saying the meaty

631
00:35:27,600 --> 00:35:29,759
Speaker 1: and and that's where like, that's where we can really

632
00:35:29,800 --> 00:35:32,160
Speaker 1: get to the things that tug at us philosophically. I

633
00:35:32,280 --> 00:35:35,680
Speaker 1: feel at least there's a lot of things that tugg

634
00:35:35,719 --> 00:35:38,120
Speaker 1: at meat philosophically about hunting, and I'm just n abashed

635
00:35:38,200 --> 00:35:40,600
Speaker 1: at trying to explore them. Just happen to do it

636
00:35:40,680 --> 00:35:43,719
Speaker 1: in the public forum. But I mean there's really if

637
00:35:43,760 --> 00:35:45,880
Speaker 1: I were to sit down and be like, what, you know,

638
00:35:46,040 --> 00:35:51,120
Speaker 1: what worries me about hunting personally intrinsically? What what is

639
00:35:51,160 --> 00:35:54,600
Speaker 1: it that that just just makes me ache? And it's

640
00:35:54,640 --> 00:35:57,520
Speaker 1: just like, boy man, this thing is it's my it's

641
00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:00,759
Speaker 1: the industry I'm in, it's the lifestyle I've chosen. It's

642
00:36:00,800 --> 00:36:02,640
Speaker 1: the thing I'm most passionate about. Is the thing I

643
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:06,440
Speaker 1: think the most about, and it involves killing things and

644
00:36:06,640 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: ripping their guts out. And so is that you know, historically,

645
00:36:12,560 --> 00:36:14,640
Speaker 1: if I look at the span of history in thirty years,

646
00:36:14,640 --> 00:36:16,000
Speaker 1: if we can look back at me and be like,

647
00:36:16,200 --> 00:36:19,080
Speaker 1: what was this guy doing? Um? So that talks to

648
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:20,880
Speaker 1: me and I'm not you know, I'm open about it.

649
00:36:20,920 --> 00:36:23,279
Speaker 1: I'm not ashamed of that. It's like probably should because

650
00:36:23,320 --> 00:36:26,120
Speaker 1: if I'm going to do something as serious as go

651
00:36:26,280 --> 00:36:28,240
Speaker 1: out into the you know, go out into the woods

652
00:36:28,800 --> 00:36:31,520
Speaker 1: and find an animal to pick the animal, I'd like

653
00:36:31,600 --> 00:36:34,800
Speaker 1: to kill go and kill it and then dismember and

654
00:36:34,880 --> 00:36:36,279
Speaker 1: bring it home and feed to my family. That's a

655
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:38,799
Speaker 1: pretty complex and serious thing to go and do. It's

656
00:36:38,840 --> 00:36:41,640
Speaker 1: not it's not a bike ride, you know. It's a

657
00:36:41,680 --> 00:36:44,640
Speaker 1: pretty three dimensional kind of like way to to way

658
00:36:44,680 --> 00:36:48,440
Speaker 1: to like recreate or to to to find joy in

659
00:36:48,520 --> 00:36:52,640
Speaker 1: the world. So it's something that I that talks at me,

660
00:36:52,719 --> 00:36:54,800
Speaker 1: and I think that's probably like we probably have this

661
00:36:55,239 --> 00:36:58,560
Speaker 1: same kind of quandaries within within our consumption, within the

662
00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,920
Speaker 1: what we're really involved. Then it's just like you look

663
00:37:01,920 --> 00:37:03,520
Speaker 1: at the world and like, I got some problems with this.

664
00:37:04,320 --> 00:37:07,480
Speaker 1: How can I solve those problems? Um? And I think

665
00:37:07,520 --> 00:37:10,080
Speaker 1: that's where most vegans, I don't know about you, most

666
00:37:10,160 --> 00:37:11,719
Speaker 1: vegans and me kind of a line like we're just

667
00:37:11,960 --> 00:37:15,919
Speaker 1: there's we see the issues with consumption and the human

668
00:37:15,960 --> 00:37:18,960
Speaker 1: engine that we are, and we're trying to solve those things. Yeah,

669
00:37:19,640 --> 00:37:22,200
Speaker 1: do you think so? I read I want to talk

670
00:37:22,200 --> 00:37:23,840
Speaker 1: about that. We'll probably talk about this forever, But I

671
00:37:23,920 --> 00:37:27,120
Speaker 1: read veganism as an aspiration, and I was like clapping

672
00:37:27,239 --> 00:37:30,080
Speaker 1: during most of it because I think I think what

673
00:37:30,160 --> 00:37:33,080
Speaker 1: I'd like to do is first set up what most

674
00:37:33,160 --> 00:37:36,080
Speaker 1: hunters are most folks might think about vegans and and

675
00:37:36,200 --> 00:37:39,359
Speaker 1: and veganism, veganism as an aspiration. You knock a lot

676
00:37:39,400 --> 00:37:42,800
Speaker 1: of those right over, like, at least in my opinion,

677
00:37:42,960 --> 00:37:46,040
Speaker 1: you do. Um, So give us your like the two

678
00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,759
Speaker 1: forms of veganism that you can see there to be

679
00:37:48,880 --> 00:37:52,120
Speaker 1: there are two different ways that people can conceive of veganism. Yeah,

680
00:37:52,400 --> 00:37:53,920
Speaker 1: so in that paper, and I want to say I

681
00:37:54,400 --> 00:37:57,520
Speaker 1: I co authored that with Lori Gruin. Yes, she's she's

682
00:37:57,560 --> 00:37:59,680
Speaker 1: a uh, one of the giants in the in the

683
00:37:59,719 --> 00:38:01,920
Speaker 1: world of animal way and I owe her a lot

684
00:38:02,040 --> 00:38:04,520
Speaker 1: for that. Um. But actually I've I've since developed that

685
00:38:04,880 --> 00:38:07,120
Speaker 1: idea a little bit more. Nay, it's been a while,

686
00:38:07,120 --> 00:38:10,600
Speaker 1: I should say that. I'm sure there's there's lots of Yeah,

687
00:38:10,640 --> 00:38:13,719
Speaker 1: I've developed some stuff. But basically the way I was,

688
00:38:14,239 --> 00:38:16,719
Speaker 1: the way that I conceived of veganism, the way that

689
00:38:17,000 --> 00:38:18,880
Speaker 1: Lori and I conceived of it, and then I've been

690
00:38:18,920 --> 00:38:21,759
Speaker 1: thinking more about it is so let me ben, let

691
00:38:21,840 --> 00:38:25,640
Speaker 1: me just say first of all that it's so I

692
00:38:26,640 --> 00:38:29,920
Speaker 1: feel like I've kind of gone around the circle on this.

693
00:38:30,080 --> 00:38:32,080
Speaker 1: I've gone around the wheel. And what I mean by

694
00:38:32,160 --> 00:38:37,560
Speaker 1: that is when people say, like, do I identify as

695
00:38:37,600 --> 00:38:43,880
Speaker 1: a vegan because of the way that the term and

696
00:38:43,960 --> 00:38:48,360
Speaker 1: the concept vegan has sort of traveled through the culture.

697
00:38:48,480 --> 00:38:55,120
Speaker 1: It's almost like I distanced myself these days because veganism,

698
00:38:56,520 --> 00:38:58,040
Speaker 1: in many ways, and I talked about it in the

699
00:38:58,080 --> 00:39:02,560
Speaker 1: paper you're talking about, veganism is in some ways well,

700
00:39:02,640 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 1: first of all, veganism, at least today in in popular culture,

701
00:39:08,760 --> 00:39:11,400
Speaker 1: it's about It's about food choices, right, It's about the

702
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,040
Speaker 1: choices you you make when you when you go to

703
00:39:14,360 --> 00:39:18,960
Speaker 1: purchase food or make food. And in many ways it's

704
00:39:19,040 --> 00:39:26,120
Speaker 1: divorced from the issue of justice. And I see quote

705
00:39:26,160 --> 00:39:29,279
Speaker 1: animal rights or animal ethics issues as it as a

706
00:39:29,360 --> 00:39:34,640
Speaker 1: social justice issue about non human animals. And so I'm

707
00:39:34,719 --> 00:39:40,920
Speaker 1: reluctant to use veganism interchangeably with animal justice or animal

708
00:39:41,000 --> 00:39:44,920
Speaker 1: ethics because you know, Beyonce's a vegan, and all these

709
00:39:45,000 --> 00:39:48,239
Speaker 1: people are vegan and they eat plant based foods, and

710
00:39:48,480 --> 00:39:51,040
Speaker 1: so what I argue in that paper is, you know,

711
00:39:51,200 --> 00:39:53,640
Speaker 1: you can think of yourself what I call like identity

712
00:39:53,800 --> 00:39:58,680
Speaker 1: vegan or lifestyle vegans. So there are there are vegans.

713
00:39:59,600 --> 00:40:01,879
Speaker 1: I mean, I don't know that this is not scientific

714
00:40:02,040 --> 00:40:05,040
Speaker 1: by any means, but there is a stigma attached to

715
00:40:05,160 --> 00:40:08,240
Speaker 1: vegans where people think that vegans are kind of zealous,

716
00:40:08,360 --> 00:40:12,120
Speaker 1: self righteous kinds of people, and they think I'm holier

717
00:40:12,160 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 1: than now, and I sort of I have clean hands

718
00:40:15,200 --> 00:40:18,919
Speaker 1: because I don't consume any animal products. I don't wear leather,

719
00:40:19,320 --> 00:40:21,719
Speaker 1: I don't eat honey, I don't use wool, I don't

720
00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,560
Speaker 1: write and and and I know all this stuff because

721
00:40:24,560 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 1: I lived it. Right, So it says in the papers

722
00:40:26,800 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 1: that these vegans have an air of moral certitude and

723
00:40:30,040 --> 00:40:33,560
Speaker 1: moral superiit artye, So so there's a certain, whether it

724
00:40:33,680 --> 00:40:36,280
Speaker 1: be factual or not, at least there's a certain caricature

725
00:40:36,480 --> 00:40:40,680
Speaker 1: of vegans that they have a kind of moral superiority.

726
00:40:40,880 --> 00:40:44,200
Speaker 1: And I was at at the butcher's son shout out

727
00:40:44,239 --> 00:40:46,359
Speaker 1: to the how did you like it there? It was good?

728
00:40:46,719 --> 00:40:49,000
Speaker 1: What did you well? I'm curious, I'm so curious. What

729
00:40:49,080 --> 00:40:52,240
Speaker 1: did you What is your order? I had? Uh, hopefully

730
00:40:52,239 --> 00:40:54,120
Speaker 1: you can give me some more like some more dope

731
00:40:54,160 --> 00:40:57,040
Speaker 1: on what's really going on there. I had the chicken grinder,

732
00:40:57,560 --> 00:41:00,200
Speaker 1: which is a is a nice sandwich with some kind

733
00:41:00,239 --> 00:41:03,320
Speaker 1: of chicken for sims. Suddenly they're like, whatever that was?

734
00:41:03,600 --> 00:41:05,719
Speaker 1: I didn't really, I didn't have time. I was like,

735
00:41:05,719 --> 00:41:07,880
Speaker 1: I gotta eat lunch and we gotta go over recorded podcast.

736
00:41:07,920 --> 00:41:09,600
Speaker 1: I don't have really time to take this menu and

737
00:41:09,719 --> 00:41:11,080
Speaker 1: kind of like, but I took a picture of the menu,

738
00:41:11,120 --> 00:41:12,759
Speaker 1: said go back and look at the ingredients and kind

739
00:41:12,800 --> 00:41:15,239
Speaker 1: of break down what was what. But it was good.

740
00:41:15,680 --> 00:41:18,520
Speaker 1: I would eat there every day. Ain't problem with that.

741
00:41:18,640 --> 00:41:21,320
Speaker 1: I just why did they We're gonna go, We'll go

742
00:41:21,440 --> 00:41:23,719
Speaker 1: down this rabbit hole because we should. Why do they

743
00:41:23,880 --> 00:41:26,560
Speaker 1: Why do they say chicken though, like I didn't anything.

744
00:41:26,600 --> 00:41:29,560
Speaker 1: I understand. Why would you Why would you say that

745
00:41:29,640 --> 00:41:32,839
Speaker 1: it's chicken when it's not. I don't understand. And they

746
00:41:32,880 --> 00:41:35,759
Speaker 1: also said, like much like you're saying, we don't like

747
00:41:35,880 --> 00:41:38,560
Speaker 1: the term vegan. When I was talking to the cashier's like, yeah,

748
00:41:38,560 --> 00:41:41,320
Speaker 1: we don't really we say vegan. It's in there, but

749
00:41:41,400 --> 00:41:43,560
Speaker 1: we don't really like to say it anymore. It's plant based,

750
00:41:44,239 --> 00:41:46,320
Speaker 1: That's what he was saying, and much the same the

751
00:41:46,360 --> 00:41:47,960
Speaker 1: much the same way you're saying it, and I think

752
00:41:48,040 --> 00:41:50,680
Speaker 1: plant based, and I'll I want to go back. I

753
00:41:50,719 --> 00:41:52,480
Speaker 1: want to go back to that issue about this where

754
00:41:52,520 --> 00:41:55,799
Speaker 1: they say chicken and and the butcher's son, I mean,

755
00:41:55,880 --> 00:41:57,800
Speaker 1: I I don't know if people who are listening to

756
00:41:57,840 --> 00:42:00,600
Speaker 1: the podcast but your son is a fully vegan Delhi

757
00:42:01,040 --> 00:42:03,000
Speaker 1: in Berkeley, and I don't know if it was when

758
00:42:03,040 --> 00:42:04,680
Speaker 1: you were there. Every time I've been there, it's it's

759
00:42:04,680 --> 00:42:06,600
Speaker 1: a pretty pack. You can get a table. And in fact,

760
00:42:06,640 --> 00:42:09,320
Speaker 1: the guy that the folks I was with from direct

761
00:42:09,360 --> 00:42:12,320
Speaker 1: action everywhere, they were like, this is the this is

762
00:42:12,400 --> 00:42:15,080
Speaker 1: the slowest we've seen it. It's good, and it's it's

763
00:42:15,400 --> 00:42:19,200
Speaker 1: all I care about good food. It's good. It's great food.

764
00:42:19,239 --> 00:42:22,479
Speaker 1: To me. I just was like a bit like, why

765
00:42:23,080 --> 00:42:24,800
Speaker 1: we just tell me what's in it? I want to

766
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:27,000
Speaker 1: know what I'm eating. It's not chicken, I know that,

767
00:42:27,960 --> 00:42:29,359
Speaker 1: So I just like to know if it's a wheat

768
00:42:29,440 --> 00:42:32,360
Speaker 1: based you know, like shred or whatever it is. I

769
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,239
Speaker 1: just like to know that. I don't don't You're not

770
00:42:35,320 --> 00:42:38,520
Speaker 1: tricking me, but what you are doing is confusing me.

771
00:42:38,920 --> 00:42:40,799
Speaker 1: I think I think we're going This is a good

772
00:42:40,840 --> 00:42:44,000
Speaker 1: point I had you brought up there, the plant based thing,

773
00:42:44,040 --> 00:42:46,279
Speaker 1: because this touches on exactly what I was talking about,

774
00:42:46,280 --> 00:42:51,279
Speaker 1: and that you know, within the vegan movement there is

775
00:42:51,400 --> 00:42:53,919
Speaker 1: like the plant based. Now, when you say plant based,

776
00:42:54,080 --> 00:42:56,560
Speaker 1: usually not always, but usually what that implies is that

777
00:42:57,680 --> 00:43:01,520
Speaker 1: I'm a vegan for these reasons. Um, it's not so

778
00:43:01,640 --> 00:43:04,360
Speaker 1: much focus, say on animal justice issues as much. And

779
00:43:04,440 --> 00:43:06,800
Speaker 1: it can be they overlap, there's a lot of overlap,

780
00:43:06,880 --> 00:43:11,600
Speaker 1: but it's it's it's more about perhaps maybe health reasons,

781
00:43:12,400 --> 00:43:16,000
Speaker 1: or it could be something like environmental reasons, environmental degradation,

782
00:43:16,080 --> 00:43:19,960
Speaker 1: and and it's associated with or I should say factory

783
00:43:20,480 --> 00:43:27,440
Speaker 1: industrial produce, agriculture and environmental degradation. So plant based for me,

784
00:43:28,200 --> 00:43:31,160
Speaker 1: if if you looked at my diet, if you just said, Robert,

785
00:43:31,200 --> 00:43:32,839
Speaker 1: write down everything you eat for a week, it would

786
00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:36,480
Speaker 1: look like a plant based person. But I personally, I

787
00:43:36,600 --> 00:43:40,800
Speaker 1: feel like my cause is a political cause. It's a

788
00:43:40,880 --> 00:43:45,440
Speaker 1: social justice cause. It's not about diet, right, so so

789
00:43:45,680 --> 00:43:48,440
Speaker 1: so going back to our original questions, So and I

790
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,399
Speaker 1: really what I don't ben, what I definitely don't want

791
00:43:50,400 --> 00:43:53,520
Speaker 1: to do is come on this podcast and pile on

792
00:43:53,800 --> 00:43:57,480
Speaker 1: vegans and because they're already demonized enough. But what I

793
00:43:57,520 --> 00:44:01,200
Speaker 1: want to say is the version of veganism that I

794
00:44:01,760 --> 00:44:05,040
Speaker 1: advocate for, and I'm writing on it now. I'm actually

795
00:44:05,080 --> 00:44:06,960
Speaker 1: I've been struggling with writing this book for a year,

796
00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:10,880
Speaker 1: which is which is thinking about the social justice aspects

797
00:44:10,880 --> 00:44:17,000
Speaker 1: of of this issue. But um, veganism as as a

798
00:44:17,120 --> 00:44:20,279
Speaker 1: liberation movement, not so much as a food movement. Right,

799
00:44:20,360 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 1: So veganism as a political stance rejecting things like uh,

800
00:44:26,800 --> 00:44:31,520
Speaker 1: corporate consumer capitalism, and environmental degradation, all these things are

801
00:44:31,520 --> 00:44:35,080
Speaker 1: all tied together human health issues. So the picture is

802
00:44:35,239 --> 00:44:38,040
Speaker 1: very big if you're a vegan. And I mentioned this

803
00:44:38,120 --> 00:44:40,600
Speaker 1: all the time when I give these talks, like let's

804
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:42,920
Speaker 1: say you're a vegan, and by vegan, what you mean

805
00:44:43,239 --> 00:44:46,360
Speaker 1: is that you do not consume and I mean that

806
00:44:46,640 --> 00:44:49,920
Speaker 1: literally and figuratively with regard to say, purchasing, you don't

807
00:44:49,960 --> 00:44:55,840
Speaker 1: consume animal products. So you might think I'm I've removed

808
00:44:55,920 --> 00:44:59,080
Speaker 1: myself from the cycle of suffering, right, because I don't.

809
00:44:59,080 --> 00:45:03,240
Speaker 1: I'm not causing any offering. However, let's say you, for example,

810
00:45:03,480 --> 00:45:05,880
Speaker 1: you go to Walmart and you buy a cotton T

811
00:45:06,040 --> 00:45:09,239
Speaker 1: shirt because it's cheap, and that cotton. To produce the

812
00:45:09,280 --> 00:45:13,040
Speaker 1: cotton is really environmentally it takes a lot of resources

813
00:45:13,080 --> 00:45:16,279
Speaker 1: to produce cotton. And then there might be a young

814
00:45:17,160 --> 00:45:21,400
Speaker 1: a young girl who's inn Indonesia making you know, crap

815
00:45:21,520 --> 00:45:27,600
Speaker 1: wages um to produce that that clothing under this kind

816
00:45:27,600 --> 00:45:34,000
Speaker 1: of you know, um, global corporate capitalist economy, and so

817
00:45:34,760 --> 00:45:38,440
Speaker 1: if you think that withholding your you're voting with your dollars.

818
00:45:38,480 --> 00:45:41,520
Speaker 1: If you're voting, you're saying I'm gonna I'm gonna avoid suffering.

819
00:45:41,560 --> 00:45:44,879
Speaker 1: Because most vegans who are ethical vegans, and I don't

820
00:45:44,920 --> 00:45:48,800
Speaker 1: mean I mean non like health plant based versions, I

821
00:45:48,840 --> 00:45:52,000
Speaker 1: mean of veganism. But most people who say if I

822
00:45:52,040 --> 00:45:53,480
Speaker 1: say to you, why are you a vegan, and you

823
00:45:53,560 --> 00:45:56,200
Speaker 1: say because I don't want to cause unnecessary suffering. So

824
00:45:56,320 --> 00:46:01,280
Speaker 1: there's an implication that by refraining from eating animal products,

825
00:46:01,920 --> 00:46:05,800
Speaker 1: I'm decreasing the suffering in the world. But all of

826
00:46:05,880 --> 00:46:08,400
Speaker 1: our purchases. This is what I say, And I think

827
00:46:08,440 --> 00:46:10,600
Speaker 1: that's the paper where I say, I say, we all

828
00:46:10,640 --> 00:46:13,799
Speaker 1: have blood on our hands. Yeah, there's have some great

829
00:46:13,840 --> 00:46:15,520
Speaker 1: quotes in here and some things like that. That's where

830
00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:19,120
Speaker 1: I'm reading them. Like, look, I think I think conceptually

831
00:46:19,239 --> 00:46:21,800
Speaker 1: veganism is great, Like i'm I'm I think it's a

832
00:46:22,040 --> 00:46:24,160
Speaker 1: if it's it's like, it's a choice, is the thing

833
00:46:24,200 --> 00:46:26,200
Speaker 1: I want to do. Conceptually, it's great because it's you

834
00:46:26,640 --> 00:46:31,600
Speaker 1: are metering or limiting in some way your impact on

835
00:46:31,680 --> 00:46:36,080
Speaker 1: the world, and you're doing it for altruistic reasons. But

836
00:46:36,200 --> 00:46:39,080
Speaker 1: the big argument that I've always that most people, most

837
00:46:39,719 --> 00:46:41,600
Speaker 1: even ford facing folks that I know, you're like, listen,

838
00:46:41,680 --> 00:46:44,920
Speaker 1: you can't your your hands aren't your hands aren't clean,

839
00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:50,920
Speaker 1: they just aren't, you know, and you look at like say, oh, keenwa, right,

840
00:46:51,440 --> 00:46:54,879
Speaker 1: was mostly produced in the Andes. I mean there's when

841
00:46:54,920 --> 00:46:59,239
Speaker 1: the when there's more higher demand for keena, the price

842
00:46:59,320 --> 00:47:02,080
Speaker 1: goes up for the that are using it and eating

843
00:47:02,120 --> 00:47:05,120
Speaker 1: it where they are, you know. Mexican avocados is another

844
00:47:05,200 --> 00:47:08,279
Speaker 1: great example of like, you know, the more demand from

845
00:47:08,320 --> 00:47:11,719
Speaker 1: Exicano avocados raise the prices and screws with a lot

846
00:47:11,760 --> 00:47:15,239
Speaker 1: of things, right, and deforestation comes from people like I'm

847
00:47:15,320 --> 00:47:17,520
Speaker 1: I gotta prove more avocados. Let's just get rid of

848
00:47:17,560 --> 00:47:21,440
Speaker 1: this far at and so there is there's just this

849
00:47:21,600 --> 00:47:24,080
Speaker 1: this acknowledgement of that is a good Like when I

850
00:47:24,160 --> 00:47:28,040
Speaker 1: was reading through that, I'm like, this acknowledgement helps to

851
00:47:28,160 --> 00:47:32,359
Speaker 1: mitigate almost everything, almost everything we disagree on, at least

852
00:47:32,400 --> 00:47:35,359
Speaker 1: the core basic issues. I think most hunters are, most

853
00:47:35,719 --> 00:47:38,880
Speaker 1: meat eaters have with the It's like the moral superiority

854
00:47:38,960 --> 00:47:41,160
Speaker 1: thing is just that's where I get off the bus,

855
00:47:41,280 --> 00:47:43,160
Speaker 1: you know, That's where most that's I think that's where

856
00:47:43,200 --> 00:47:45,520
Speaker 1: most folks get off the bus. So if you could

857
00:47:45,520 --> 00:47:48,080
Speaker 1: start the conversation by saying, yeah, we get it. We

858
00:47:48,160 --> 00:47:50,399
Speaker 1: had a lot, a lot of things to figure out here,

859
00:47:50,920 --> 00:47:54,040
Speaker 1: but this is just my way of trying to better

860
00:47:54,120 --> 00:47:57,520
Speaker 1: the world by consuming in a better way. I think

861
00:47:57,600 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 1: that's that's understandable because that's what I'm doing. Yeah again,

862
00:48:01,280 --> 00:48:04,640
Speaker 1: I see, I think that, And I don't know. You know,

863
00:48:04,680 --> 00:48:08,400
Speaker 1: I don't know the hunting culture ben as well as

864
00:48:08,440 --> 00:48:12,000
Speaker 1: you do, obviously, but I'm I would say if I

865
00:48:12,080 --> 00:48:16,200
Speaker 1: had to guess, both in the animal rights world and

866
00:48:16,280 --> 00:48:19,520
Speaker 1: in the hunting world, the kind of thing that you

867
00:48:19,560 --> 00:48:21,959
Speaker 1: and I are talking about is not the predominant view,

868
00:48:23,080 --> 00:48:26,520
Speaker 1: at least from my experience. It's not like i'd say

869
00:48:26,680 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 1: this in the population in general. Most people, most consumers

870
00:48:30,719 --> 00:48:35,200
Speaker 1: don't think about the interconnectedness of all these kinds of

871
00:48:35,320 --> 00:48:38,920
Speaker 1: industries and human endeavors as the impacts that they have,

872
00:48:39,239 --> 00:48:42,919
Speaker 1: right So, so I think it's important for no matter

873
00:48:43,040 --> 00:48:46,040
Speaker 1: where you're where you come down on this issue of

874
00:48:46,239 --> 00:48:50,880
Speaker 1: hunting or um animal rights, we're all involved in this

875
00:48:51,040 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: cycle of destruction. You can't get out of the cycle

876
00:48:55,080 --> 00:48:57,640
Speaker 1: of destruction. You can't have seven and a half billion people,

877
00:48:58,120 --> 00:49:01,120
Speaker 1: nine billion people by twenty eleven billion people by the

878
00:49:01,239 --> 00:49:05,080
Speaker 1: end of the century. You can't have that many people

879
00:49:05,480 --> 00:49:09,120
Speaker 1: and have the place be sustainable. I mean, you know,

880
00:49:09,239 --> 00:49:11,560
Speaker 1: you may have heard the statistic if everyone on the

881
00:49:11,640 --> 00:49:14,920
Speaker 1: planet lived an affluent Western lifestyle, we would need five

882
00:49:15,000 --> 00:49:18,399
Speaker 1: planet Earth's as like resources. Right, So so we're all

883
00:49:18,440 --> 00:49:20,920
Speaker 1: we're all in this together. So the fact that I

884
00:49:21,040 --> 00:49:26,000
Speaker 1: might refrain from purchasing or be activist, be an activist

885
00:49:26,239 --> 00:49:31,800
Speaker 1: in trying to prevent animal suffering, that doesn't remove me

886
00:49:32,120 --> 00:49:34,920
Speaker 1: from from animal suffering. It doesn't remove me from suffering

887
00:49:35,040 --> 00:49:38,239
Speaker 1: or human suffering or degradation of the planet. However, I

888
00:49:38,280 --> 00:49:42,480
Speaker 1: do want to say if here's what I think is important.

889
00:49:42,520 --> 00:49:44,759
Speaker 1: And this is my friend John Sapan Matsu, who is

890
00:49:44,840 --> 00:49:48,000
Speaker 1: a great animal philosopher in Boston, animal rights guy. He

891
00:49:48,080 --> 00:49:50,120
Speaker 1: has a whole paper that I highly recommend it. It's

892
00:49:50,160 --> 00:49:53,000
Speaker 1: called The Animal of bad Faith, and he talks about

893
00:49:54,080 --> 00:49:58,239
Speaker 1: how many of our moral decisions talk reflect a certain

894
00:49:58,320 --> 00:50:01,399
Speaker 1: kind of what John John Paul the philosopher called bad faith,

895
00:50:01,440 --> 00:50:05,200
Speaker 1: and that is we want to tell ourselves a story

896
00:50:06,000 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: in a in a way that um, it's like think

897
00:50:09,640 --> 00:50:13,520
Speaker 1: think about like this. It's we're just we're we're deceiving ourselves.

898
00:50:13,760 --> 00:50:16,400
Speaker 1: So so when you think about normal bad faith, you

899
00:50:16,520 --> 00:50:19,400
Speaker 1: think bad faith. If I make a bad faith contract

900
00:50:19,440 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 1: with you, I know, in advance of premeditatively say yeah,

901
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:25,440
Speaker 1: if you, you know, build this thing, I'll pay you.

902
00:50:25,560 --> 00:50:27,359
Speaker 1: But I know I'm not going to pay you. That's

903
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:28,960
Speaker 1: not the kind of bad faith. This kind of bad

904
00:50:29,000 --> 00:50:32,440
Speaker 1: faith is a bad faith when I'm acting contrary to

905
00:50:32,560 --> 00:50:36,160
Speaker 1: what my morals are, but I deceive myself. I tell

906
00:50:36,239 --> 00:50:39,520
Speaker 1: myself a story. So in the case of the vegan,

907
00:50:39,719 --> 00:50:42,400
Speaker 1: I might say, oh, no, I've removed myself from the

908
00:50:42,440 --> 00:50:45,439
Speaker 1: cycle of suffering. And so it's okay that I buy

909
00:50:45,520 --> 00:50:49,160
Speaker 1: this iPhone that has slave minerals in it, where I

910
00:50:49,239 --> 00:50:52,240
Speaker 1: buy this BMW that has just plastic, there's no anim

911
00:50:52,239 --> 00:50:54,759
Speaker 1: there's no leather. Or you might be a meat eater

912
00:50:55,000 --> 00:50:57,879
Speaker 1: that says like, oh animals are you know, they're here

913
00:50:57,960 --> 00:51:00,520
Speaker 1: to be eaten, and and I think all of those

914
00:51:00,640 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: are examples of no, let's let's just let's at least

915
00:51:05,160 --> 00:51:07,759
Speaker 1: put our cards on the table and say you can't

916
00:51:07,880 --> 00:51:11,040
Speaker 1: escape the suffering. That animal doesn't want to die, it

917
00:51:11,160 --> 00:51:13,080
Speaker 1: wants to live. So let's not make pretend that that

918
00:51:13,320 --> 00:51:15,360
Speaker 1: you know, that's what it wants to do and so

919
00:51:15,640 --> 00:51:18,000
Speaker 1: once we if we can shed at least the bad

920
00:51:18,120 --> 00:51:22,040
Speaker 1: faith and have a quote good faith discussion. Yeah, that's

921
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:24,680
Speaker 1: that's where. That's where, that's where it starts. That's a

922
00:51:24,800 --> 00:51:26,920
Speaker 1: huge and great point. I love, like I love the

923
00:51:26,960 --> 00:51:30,880
Speaker 1: cards on the table because I there again like if

924
00:51:30,920 --> 00:51:33,880
Speaker 1: I would have and I and I've made this mistake

925
00:51:33,920 --> 00:51:36,600
Speaker 1: in my past, like the air of moral periority, I

926
00:51:36,760 --> 00:51:39,000
Speaker 1: kill an animal there. I just go out there and

927
00:51:39,160 --> 00:51:42,600
Speaker 1: I find this animal. It eats naturally, lives naturally, and

928
00:51:42,680 --> 00:51:46,200
Speaker 1: I remove it from that landscape. And isn't that in

929
00:51:46,320 --> 00:51:49,520
Speaker 1: itself the best way to go and get your food.

930
00:51:50,800 --> 00:51:53,320
Speaker 1: If I were to take that towards and blow that

931
00:51:53,400 --> 00:51:57,400
Speaker 1: up to the environment. I'm wearing you know, textiles, I have,

932
00:51:58,320 --> 00:52:00,920
Speaker 1: you know, rubber in my boots. I'm driving a combusting

933
00:52:00,960 --> 00:52:04,680
Speaker 1: engine vehicle out to go and get this thing. There's

934
00:52:04,719 --> 00:52:07,040
Speaker 1: so many like lay those cards out on the table,

935
00:52:07,200 --> 00:52:09,320
Speaker 1: like yes, you know, and I feel that way. I

936
00:52:09,360 --> 00:52:11,040
Speaker 1: think about veganism too. I mean, if you were to

937
00:52:11,160 --> 00:52:12,840
Speaker 1: lay the cards out on table as you just have

938
00:52:13,000 --> 00:52:17,480
Speaker 1: and say, like I understand that that it is impossible

939
00:52:17,520 --> 00:52:20,479
Speaker 1: to to fully mitigate all these impacts on the world

940
00:52:20,520 --> 00:52:23,239
Speaker 1: around us. Let's lay that out on the table and

941
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,640
Speaker 1: be like, Okay, we can probably all agree on that.

942
00:52:27,600 --> 00:52:30,000
Speaker 1: And I feel like that's kind of where hunters a

943
00:52:30,040 --> 00:52:32,239
Speaker 1: lot of times that vegans can start, like we kind

944
00:52:32,239 --> 00:52:35,960
Speaker 1: of start from the same place and just like see

945
00:52:35,960 --> 00:52:38,520
Speaker 1: the world around me. I want to know it better.

946
00:52:39,239 --> 00:52:41,960
Speaker 1: You know, I'm gonna try this way. This is like

947
00:52:42,040 --> 00:52:44,880
Speaker 1: a adaptation of eating meat in in a way for

948
00:52:44,920 --> 00:52:47,120
Speaker 1: a lot of like new and adult onset hunters what

949
00:52:47,200 --> 00:52:49,040
Speaker 1: we call them, people that are picking hunting up in

950
00:52:49,080 --> 00:52:52,160
Speaker 1: the thirties. It's a way, it's a way to like

951
00:52:52,480 --> 00:52:56,080
Speaker 1: find themselves. It's a way to solve the same problems

952
00:52:56,120 --> 00:52:58,560
Speaker 1: that I think that you're trying to solve. So there's

953
00:52:58,600 --> 00:53:00,439
Speaker 1: just a lot of similarities in it. But I love

954
00:53:00,840 --> 00:53:02,960
Speaker 1: the idea of laying the cards out on the table,

955
00:53:03,920 --> 00:53:06,320
Speaker 1: the airs of superiority that we have in the hunting

956
00:53:06,640 --> 00:53:09,840
Speaker 1: space and conservation and eating the meat and the organic

957
00:53:09,960 --> 00:53:12,200
Speaker 1: nature to meat, whatever I think I could. I could

958
00:53:12,200 --> 00:53:14,040
Speaker 1: poke holes and those all day, and I often do

959
00:53:14,760 --> 00:53:17,160
Speaker 1: so in the same way that like your you can

960
00:53:17,200 --> 00:53:18,800
Speaker 1: be self critical of your community. I could do the

961
00:53:18,840 --> 00:53:21,600
Speaker 1: same thing hunting and lay those self critical cars on

962
00:53:21,640 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: the table won't be like it ain't perfect, boy, it

963
00:53:24,200 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 1: ain't close, and then we can get to the root of,

964
00:53:27,520 --> 00:53:30,000
Speaker 1: like philosophically, why we're doing what we're doing. And no,

965
00:53:30,080 --> 00:53:31,759
Speaker 1: it's not, it's just it's just dawned on me that

966
00:53:31,840 --> 00:53:34,480
Speaker 1: something else that's interesting is, you know, like I said,

967
00:53:35,239 --> 00:53:39,040
Speaker 1: I really want to as much as I have for

968
00:53:39,120 --> 00:53:41,680
Speaker 1: the past few years, sort of made these critiques of

969
00:53:42,320 --> 00:53:45,560
Speaker 1: a certain kind of veganism. I also and I and

970
00:53:45,800 --> 00:53:48,560
Speaker 1: I so in doing that, I want to say, I

971
00:53:48,680 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: also feel protective and I don't want to pile on

972
00:53:50,960 --> 00:53:54,680
Speaker 1: because as I mentioned, the vegans are kind of like

973
00:53:54,880 --> 00:54:00,680
Speaker 1: vilified and seeing as wackos, but also in in you know,

974
00:54:00,880 --> 00:54:05,000
Speaker 1: in certain certain parts of the culture, hunters are seen

975
00:54:05,040 --> 00:54:09,239
Speaker 1: as I feel, you bro like trophy hunting and that

976
00:54:09,440 --> 00:54:13,440
Speaker 1: like really liberal, moral superior vegan kind of in this

977
00:54:13,640 --> 00:54:17,520
Speaker 1: same pretty much the same bucket, depending on which which

978
00:54:17,560 --> 00:54:23,120
Speaker 1: one you So there's there's there's probably if you again

979
00:54:23,200 --> 00:54:25,279
Speaker 1: this isn't scientific, I would imagine there are a lot

980
00:54:25,320 --> 00:54:28,759
Speaker 1: of Americans if you said, you know, what do you

981
00:54:28,800 --> 00:54:31,360
Speaker 1: think about vegans, Oh, they're the extreme wackos. Oh, and

982
00:54:31,440 --> 00:54:33,839
Speaker 1: what do you same person, what do you think about hunters? Oh?

983
00:54:33,920 --> 00:54:35,920
Speaker 1: They just like the shoot ship and kill things, right

984
00:54:36,880 --> 00:54:40,520
Speaker 1: with the elephant tail Donald Trump Junior at Elephant Tale, Like, well,

985
00:54:40,600 --> 00:54:44,080
Speaker 1: sure he did, but that's just one guy. Um. Yeah,

986
00:54:44,120 --> 00:54:46,640
Speaker 1: I mean and you see Pamela Anderson throwing blood on people. Yeah,

987
00:54:46,640 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 1: but that's just one person, right, So I think it

988
00:54:49,800 --> 00:54:53,359
Speaker 1: it's it's something that I can I've certainly I think

989
00:54:53,400 --> 00:54:55,520
Speaker 1: in your work you have too. It's just like you

990
00:54:55,640 --> 00:54:58,120
Speaker 1: kind of could turn inward and you know that some

991
00:54:58,200 --> 00:55:00,799
Speaker 1: of the like some of the conversations with in the communities,

992
00:55:01,560 --> 00:55:05,040
Speaker 1: these communities that are this tight, our insular, and there

993
00:55:05,160 --> 00:55:07,000
Speaker 1: is you need to kind of turn out for a minute,

994
00:55:07,040 --> 00:55:09,719
Speaker 1: look around and go why don't people dig this as

995
00:55:10,000 --> 00:55:13,400
Speaker 1: much as I do? Like, why do they think the

996
00:55:13,480 --> 00:55:16,320
Speaker 1: way they Why does the common person, you know, just

997
00:55:16,440 --> 00:55:20,040
Speaker 1: a independent individual, if you were to posit those things

998
00:55:20,120 --> 00:55:21,320
Speaker 1: to them, Why do they think the way they do?

999
00:55:21,760 --> 00:55:23,880
Speaker 1: Why is it they think hunters are a bunch of

1000
00:55:23,960 --> 00:55:27,600
Speaker 1: redneck shooting fools and vegans are a bunch of you know,

1001
00:55:27,960 --> 00:55:30,319
Speaker 1: they're walking around protests and with buckets of blood. It's

1002
00:55:30,320 --> 00:55:33,400
Speaker 1: like why, why? And what can we do to help

1003
00:55:34,000 --> 00:55:37,360
Speaker 1: help those things? Um? And I'm glad we've we've already

1004
00:55:37,400 --> 00:55:39,520
Speaker 1: we're already in the same we've arrapped at the same

1005
00:55:39,520 --> 00:55:43,400
Speaker 1: place this quickly. But anyway, I think that's my I

1006
00:55:43,480 --> 00:55:46,839
Speaker 1: think that's my main question if you, if you were

1007
00:55:46,920 --> 00:55:50,319
Speaker 1: too in your own mind, kind of like lay out

1008
00:55:50,400 --> 00:55:54,080
Speaker 1: the similarities between a hunter like Steve Ornella have you

1009
00:55:54,200 --> 00:55:56,520
Speaker 1: met and we're a part of his Stars in the

1010
00:55:56,520 --> 00:55:59,400
Speaker 1: Sky documentary, and even well you know about me and

1011
00:55:59,680 --> 00:56:02,640
Speaker 1: and what we do at our companies. There would you

1012
00:56:02,760 --> 00:56:04,319
Speaker 1: if a Vegan said, what do you know about these guys?

1013
00:56:04,360 --> 00:56:06,040
Speaker 1: How would you lay it out in a way that

1014
00:56:06,760 --> 00:56:08,360
Speaker 1: you know that maybe they would understand there is a

1015
00:56:08,440 --> 00:56:13,200
Speaker 1: different version of Well, I would say that, um, from

1016
00:56:13,280 --> 00:56:15,279
Speaker 1: my you know from my And once again it's a

1017
00:56:15,360 --> 00:56:19,160
Speaker 1: limited perspective. I'm not like community. I'm not hunting for

1018
00:56:19,200 --> 00:56:22,480
Speaker 1: a compliment I get. But what what I would say

1019
00:56:22,600 --> 00:56:27,120
Speaker 1: is that what I discovered, UM, because I've known as

1020
00:56:27,160 --> 00:56:29,320
Speaker 1: I mentioned, I grew up in Pennsylvania and I've known hunters.

1021
00:56:29,880 --> 00:56:31,960
Speaker 1: I've been to people's homes where there's like you go

1022
00:56:32,040 --> 00:56:33,520
Speaker 1: in the room and there's like the bear, there's all

1023
00:56:33,560 --> 00:56:36,600
Speaker 1: the heads on the walls and all the trophy hunting,

1024
00:56:36,719 --> 00:56:41,160
Speaker 1: and um, one of the things I discovered about Ronella

1025
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:45,520
Speaker 1: when I went out there to Montana was and looked

1026
00:56:45,560 --> 00:56:48,439
Speaker 1: into that that world. And then when I heard about

1027
00:56:48,440 --> 00:56:53,200
Speaker 1: the podcast and listen to you, then, um, what what

1028
00:56:53,320 --> 00:56:58,360
Speaker 1: I was surprised about was the sort of thoughtfulness, Like

1029
00:56:58,880 --> 00:57:03,840
Speaker 1: it wasn't merely the stereotype of like basically you're just

1030
00:57:03,960 --> 00:57:05,799
Speaker 1: an arm of the n r A and you are

1031
00:57:05,880 --> 00:57:08,080
Speaker 1: basically here to promote guns and killing, and that was

1032
00:57:08,360 --> 00:57:11,320
Speaker 1: that's that's an easy rout. But what I discovered in

1033
00:57:11,800 --> 00:57:15,200
Speaker 1: hearing your podcast and even you and I had talked

1034
00:57:15,200 --> 00:57:18,400
Speaker 1: before the podcast before I even agreed to go meet

1035
00:57:18,520 --> 00:57:21,400
Speaker 1: Steve and being the film was I was I was wary.

1036
00:57:21,480 --> 00:57:23,080
Speaker 1: I thought like, oh, this is gonna be an ambush.

1037
00:57:23,120 --> 00:57:25,720
Speaker 1: They're going to get an animal rights philosopher edit the

1038
00:57:25,760 --> 00:57:28,560
Speaker 1: film to make him look a galunatic. But so I

1039
00:57:28,600 --> 00:57:31,280
Speaker 1: didn't find that. So so when I talked to Steve

1040
00:57:31,640 --> 00:57:35,360
Speaker 1: and and we had conversation before we did the film,

1041
00:57:36,320 --> 00:57:38,360
Speaker 1: I felt like, this is a pretty thoughtful guy. We

1042
00:57:38,560 --> 00:57:43,120
Speaker 1: we we disagree about certain important what I would consider

1043
00:57:43,240 --> 00:57:48,880
Speaker 1: like ethical implications of what we do, but but this

1044
00:57:49,040 --> 00:57:52,520
Speaker 1: is the kind of person where I I felt like

1045
00:57:52,880 --> 00:57:56,880
Speaker 1: when Steve and I were having a conversation he was

1046
00:57:57,040 --> 00:57:59,880
Speaker 1: fully tuned into like he I felt like he was

1047
00:58:00,080 --> 00:58:02,480
Speaker 1: like I want to learn about what like the way

1048
00:58:02,560 --> 00:58:05,800
Speaker 1: you think he wasn't like I didn't get the impression

1049
00:58:05,840 --> 00:58:07,920
Speaker 1: that I just want to throw this vegan dude on

1050
00:58:08,200 --> 00:58:09,760
Speaker 1: on the in front of the camera and make him

1051
00:58:09,760 --> 00:58:12,360
Speaker 1: look like an idiot. So and likewise, you know, we

1052
00:58:12,520 --> 00:58:15,280
Speaker 1: just met. But in listening to your podcast a few times,

1053
00:58:16,280 --> 00:58:18,640
Speaker 1: I thought the thing I the thing I think about

1054
00:58:18,840 --> 00:58:22,240
Speaker 1: is with regard to your being a hunter is here's

1055
00:58:22,240 --> 00:58:25,000
Speaker 1: what I mean, my my general my first impression was like, oh,

1056
00:58:25,160 --> 00:58:28,160
Speaker 1: there are hunters out there who are actually thoughtful and

1057
00:58:28,240 --> 00:58:32,320
Speaker 1: think about this stuff rather than um kind of stereotype

1058
00:58:32,560 --> 00:58:37,520
Speaker 1: where no matter what in my experience I have and

1059
00:58:37,680 --> 00:58:40,160
Speaker 1: as you have probably with with animal rights, people's like

1060
00:58:41,040 --> 00:58:43,160
Speaker 1: there's a there's a sort of you circle the wagons

1061
00:58:43,240 --> 00:58:46,920
Speaker 1: and any kind of question like well there's wildlife management

1062
00:58:47,080 --> 00:58:49,640
Speaker 1: really like there's your license? Is that the best way

1063
00:58:49,720 --> 00:58:52,600
Speaker 1: to help animals? And and there's like the party line

1064
00:58:53,480 --> 00:58:55,840
Speaker 1: what I heard with you on yours and Steve is

1065
00:58:55,920 --> 00:58:59,160
Speaker 1: like not that you might you might disagree, but you

1066
00:59:00,440 --> 00:59:02,240
Speaker 1: And here's what I tell my students in my critical

1067
00:59:02,280 --> 00:59:04,640
Speaker 1: thinking class. I'll say, and I teach an animal rights class.

1068
00:59:04,640 --> 00:59:07,240
Speaker 1: I say the same thing I say when you come

1069
00:59:07,280 --> 00:59:11,200
Speaker 1: into this class in in September and then you leave

1070
00:59:11,280 --> 00:59:15,720
Speaker 1: in December, I'm not I'm not I'm not interested in

1071
00:59:15,840 --> 00:59:20,160
Speaker 1: your like your views from September you actually change. What

1072
00:59:20,280 --> 00:59:22,560
Speaker 1: I'm more interested is if you come in September with

1073
00:59:22,720 --> 00:59:25,560
Speaker 1: certain views about animals. And I teach a Cheeko State,

1074
00:59:25,640 --> 00:59:28,640
Speaker 1: which is in northern California. It's a big a community,

1075
00:59:28,680 --> 00:59:31,720
Speaker 1: big hunting community. And I have a lot of students

1076
00:59:31,800 --> 00:59:34,680
Speaker 1: because my class the animal. I teach a class called

1077
00:59:34,760 --> 00:59:38,200
Speaker 1: Confronting the Animal, which is in the g pathway they

1078
00:59:38,320 --> 00:59:41,280
Speaker 1: call food study. So I have all these agg animal

1079
00:59:41,360 --> 00:59:45,720
Speaker 1: science hunters taken my floah exactly what the hell? But

1080
00:59:45,960 --> 00:59:47,760
Speaker 1: here's what I tell them, And this goes to what

1081
00:59:47,840 --> 00:59:51,400
Speaker 1: we're talking about. Is that what I if I had

1082
00:59:51,440 --> 00:59:54,360
Speaker 1: to choose, if you left in December and you still

1083
00:59:54,480 --> 00:59:56,560
Speaker 1: felt the same way about hunting as when you came in,

1084
00:59:56,800 --> 00:59:58,439
Speaker 1: or you still felt the same way about meat eating,

1085
00:59:58,840 --> 01:00:01,960
Speaker 1: but you you actually had reasons, and you had you

1086
01:00:02,000 --> 01:00:05,000
Speaker 1: could you could think about now I understand why I

1087
01:00:05,120 --> 01:00:07,040
Speaker 1: believe this, or now I understand why this is more

1088
01:00:07,120 --> 01:00:11,840
Speaker 1: valuable to me that to me is is more important

1089
01:00:11,880 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 1: than saying, Oh, in fifteen weeks, I'm gonna make you

1090
01:00:14,800 --> 01:00:18,440
Speaker 1: into a vegan. And so when working, you know, listening

1091
01:00:18,480 --> 01:00:21,160
Speaker 1: to you and talking to Steve, it's like it's like

1092
01:00:21,320 --> 01:00:25,000
Speaker 1: having that kind of thoughtful conversation where you interrogate, like

1093
01:00:25,160 --> 01:00:28,120
Speaker 1: why do I do this? And is are my beliefs

1094
01:00:28,800 --> 01:00:31,240
Speaker 1: lining up with the world. As a vegan, I might

1095
01:00:31,360 --> 01:00:34,040
Speaker 1: think when I PLoP down my money and I go

1096
01:00:34,240 --> 01:00:36,800
Speaker 1: to the butcher's son and get a quote chicken sandwich,

1097
01:00:37,320 --> 01:00:40,440
Speaker 1: am I really helping the planet as opposed to just

1098
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:42,840
Speaker 1: going on autopilot and going, oh, yeah, it's vegan, so

1099
01:00:42,960 --> 01:00:45,600
Speaker 1: it's good. Oh it's hunting so it's bad. Yeah, it's

1100
01:00:45,640 --> 01:00:48,880
Speaker 1: like this intellectual weightlifting you're doing. You know, I would

1101
01:00:48,920 --> 01:00:52,080
Speaker 1: say that I, why are you Why are you going

1102
01:00:52,120 --> 01:00:54,120
Speaker 1: over there? Why are you going over to the belly

1103
01:00:54,120 --> 01:00:57,800
Speaker 1: of the beast, Because I was like, I'm I spent

1104
01:00:57,840 --> 01:01:01,080
Speaker 1: all this time talking into a little microphone and trying

1105
01:01:01,160 --> 01:01:03,160
Speaker 1: to figure out if I'm right or wrong or trying

1106
01:01:03,240 --> 01:01:06,240
Speaker 1: to to judge how to approach a lot of different situations,

1107
01:01:07,400 --> 01:01:12,320
Speaker 1: and I'm like, if I can't take these beliefs over

1108
01:01:12,560 --> 01:01:15,600
Speaker 1: and test them on people that I respect and say like,

1109
01:01:15,760 --> 01:01:17,440
Speaker 1: let's let's throw back and forth and let's see what

1110
01:01:17,480 --> 01:01:20,200
Speaker 1: I can learn. If I can't do that, then I'm

1111
01:01:20,320 --> 01:01:22,600
Speaker 1: then I'm wrong. Like then if i'm if, I'm just

1112
01:01:22,640 --> 01:01:25,640
Speaker 1: gonna come and say, well, concert wise, hunting great, Well

1113
01:01:25,800 --> 01:01:30,280
Speaker 1: you know what, Robert conservation, you know what else? The meat?

1114
01:01:30,400 --> 01:01:32,760
Speaker 1: You know what else? The adventure. Oh, it's also fun.

1115
01:01:33,120 --> 01:01:34,840
Speaker 1: It's really fun to do. Like you said, when you

1116
01:01:34,920 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 1: went hunting as a kid, you had a good time.

1117
01:01:37,440 --> 01:01:39,680
Speaker 1: So those are those are the party lines, and those

1118
01:01:39,720 --> 01:01:42,360
Speaker 1: party lines I believe I believe in. But I also

1119
01:01:42,400 --> 01:01:44,800
Speaker 1: believe there's depth behind them, and there's holes in them

1120
01:01:44,840 --> 01:01:47,760
Speaker 1: that I'd like to fill in um And how better

1121
01:01:47,840 --> 01:01:49,720
Speaker 1: to fill them in than to to run right at

1122
01:01:49,760 --> 01:01:52,320
Speaker 1: them and just see see if they stand up? Because

1123
01:01:52,360 --> 01:01:56,800
Speaker 1: I don't want to be sitting around thirty years. I

1124
01:01:56,920 --> 01:01:58,880
Speaker 1: met a lot of hunters I met, well, not a lot,

1125
01:01:58,880 --> 01:02:00,640
Speaker 1: but I've met a number of hunters I very much

1126
01:02:00,720 --> 01:02:03,680
Speaker 1: respect that are getting up in age sixty seven years

1127
01:02:03,720 --> 01:02:06,400
Speaker 1: old and quit hunting and just start taking pictures of animals,

1128
01:02:06,920 --> 01:02:09,040
Speaker 1: you know. And so I would ask myself, why is

1129
01:02:09,120 --> 01:02:11,400
Speaker 1: that is that going to be me? Am I going

1130
01:02:11,440 --> 01:02:13,480
Speaker 1: to get to a point in my life where I've

1131
01:02:13,520 --> 01:02:15,640
Speaker 1: killed enough And why would that be if that is me?

1132
01:02:16,320 --> 01:02:18,720
Speaker 1: Why would I get to a point where I'm sixty

1133
01:02:18,800 --> 01:02:21,800
Speaker 1: five and I'm just done with it? Is? What's that

1134
01:02:22,000 --> 01:02:25,920
Speaker 1: say about the practice? Um? And so those questions, I

1135
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:30,520
Speaker 1: think you are key to either one side being on

1136
01:02:30,640 --> 01:02:34,200
Speaker 1: the right or you know, at least intellectually sound with

1137
01:02:34,360 --> 01:02:37,480
Speaker 1: what we do. For sure, Yeah, I think part of

1138
01:02:37,520 --> 01:02:41,240
Speaker 1: it is being it's being critical of always being critical

1139
01:02:41,760 --> 01:02:45,480
Speaker 1: of whatever your beliefs. When when when you're fully entrenched

1140
01:02:46,040 --> 01:02:49,240
Speaker 1: and you think I've now reached the point where I

1141
01:02:49,280 --> 01:02:52,400
Speaker 1: don't need to question anymore than then you're in danger

1142
01:02:52,480 --> 01:02:55,520
Speaker 1: at that point, that's a great point. Then there's I

1143
01:02:55,600 --> 01:02:58,320
Speaker 1: think that's you see that, and I think you see

1144
01:02:58,360 --> 01:03:00,760
Speaker 1: it on the internet. Man, people, the rage machine is

1145
01:03:02,120 --> 01:03:06,040
Speaker 1: the internet is it's it's a bastion. I mean, anytime

1146
01:03:06,080 --> 01:03:08,960
Speaker 1: you have anonymity and then you can you can that's

1147
01:03:09,080 --> 01:03:13,160
Speaker 1: dangerous people they get you, um. And what's worse is

1148
01:03:13,200 --> 01:03:15,800
Speaker 1: we listen to them. That's what I wanted to go

1149
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:17,640
Speaker 1: back to the other thing you're talking about chicken, because

1150
01:03:17,640 --> 01:03:20,960
Speaker 1: I know it's the chicken thing, because why and I

1151
01:03:21,840 --> 01:03:24,480
Speaker 1: want an answer to this that makes sense to me,

1152
01:03:24,640 --> 01:03:27,520
Speaker 1: and I will pursue it. It's like, I go in

1153
01:03:27,600 --> 01:03:29,400
Speaker 1: there and I got a lot of message from people

1154
01:03:29,400 --> 01:03:33,680
Speaker 1: and on Instagram as well, It's like, why why is

1155
01:03:33,680 --> 01:03:35,560
Speaker 1: it called chicken or steak? Why is it a steak

1156
01:03:35,600 --> 01:03:39,400
Speaker 1: and cheese if it's not steak? Isn't that on its face?

1157
01:03:39,480 --> 01:03:43,920
Speaker 1: It seems disingenuous. It seems confusing for no reason. And

1158
01:03:44,240 --> 01:03:46,240
Speaker 1: I did learn and going in there that you know,

1159
01:03:46,280 --> 01:03:48,520
Speaker 1: a lot of people that I live on what we

1160
01:03:48,560 --> 01:03:50,560
Speaker 1: think is a vegan diet, like you said earlier, don't

1161
01:03:50,600 --> 01:03:53,160
Speaker 1: like the label. So my assumption is like there's something

1162
01:03:53,200 --> 01:03:55,240
Speaker 1: in there that I need to understand, But I didn't

1163
01:03:55,320 --> 01:03:58,520
Speaker 1: just read the menum like it seems strange. Yeah, and

1164
01:03:58,720 --> 01:04:02,040
Speaker 1: and there is, I mean, just you know again, going

1165
01:04:02,520 --> 01:04:04,400
Speaker 1: you and I are part of what we're doing is

1166
01:04:04,480 --> 01:04:06,840
Speaker 1: like breaking the notion that there's a monolith on any

1167
01:04:06,880 --> 01:04:10,640
Speaker 1: of these issues, right, there's not there. There maybe you know,

1168
01:04:11,240 --> 01:04:13,800
Speaker 1: a consensus among hunters, but it's not a mono. Length

1169
01:04:13,880 --> 01:04:15,760
Speaker 1: And there's and same thing in the animal rights world.

1170
01:04:15,960 --> 01:04:19,320
Speaker 1: There's yeah, there are there are plenty of people who think,

1171
01:04:19,560 --> 01:04:21,760
Speaker 1: you know what, we shouldn't even name it chicken, like

1172
01:04:22,080 --> 01:04:25,479
Speaker 1: it's a vegan place. It's a sandwich. It's modeled after,

1173
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:28,400
Speaker 1: you know, a chicken and things sandwich. You know, kind

1174
01:04:28,440 --> 01:04:31,680
Speaker 1: of you said it was a grinder, but um, but

1175
01:04:31,880 --> 01:04:35,040
Speaker 1: it's not chicken, so en I would have eated just

1176
01:04:35,080 --> 01:04:37,800
Speaker 1: the same if it was like a wheat grinder. Yeah, yes,

1177
01:04:37,920 --> 01:04:40,920
Speaker 1: it's good. Wasn't peppers? That's good? You know. Yeah, I

1178
01:04:41,000 --> 01:04:43,439
Speaker 1: didn't need I didn't need to be coerced and eating

1179
01:04:43,440 --> 01:04:45,480
Speaker 1: the sandwich. I would eat it. I was there because

1180
01:04:45,480 --> 01:04:47,600
Speaker 1: I knew what it was and I'm like, I'm down

1181
01:04:47,680 --> 01:04:49,760
Speaker 1: to try whatever and also taste really good. So what

1182
01:04:49,960 --> 01:04:52,560
Speaker 1: I don't give a ship what's in it? So is

1183
01:04:52,560 --> 01:04:54,720
Speaker 1: that what's the well? I think there's a number I

1184
01:04:54,800 --> 01:04:56,600
Speaker 1: know this is actually been This is a really I

1185
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,200
Speaker 1: think it's a lot more complicated and I totally dig

1186
01:04:59,440 --> 01:05:01,800
Speaker 1: your I totally to get Let me just say I

1187
01:05:01,880 --> 01:05:04,400
Speaker 1: can acknowledge that there can be an aspect of this

1188
01:05:04,480 --> 01:05:07,680
Speaker 1: where do you think, wait, is this intentionally deceptive? So

1189
01:05:08,120 --> 01:05:10,880
Speaker 1: you have some person, let's imagine they wander in off

1190
01:05:10,920 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 1: the street and they don't know it's just because it

1191
01:05:13,360 --> 01:05:16,280
Speaker 1: looks it's a nice it's a nice restaurant. It's really nice.

1192
01:05:16,480 --> 01:05:18,680
Speaker 1: There's a lot of nice looking people in their nice

1193
01:05:18,720 --> 01:05:20,880
Speaker 1: looking people. They're not like I thought they might be

1194
01:05:20,960 --> 01:05:22,720
Speaker 1: a bunch of pale people can barely get out of

1195
01:05:22,760 --> 01:05:27,160
Speaker 1: their chairs. Well you know vegans, you know, they're just yeah.

1196
01:05:27,200 --> 01:05:28,880
Speaker 1: They I went in there with a bunch of beats,

1197
01:05:28,880 --> 01:05:32,560
Speaker 1: well pills, and nobody would take it. I go in

1198
01:05:32,680 --> 01:05:34,760
Speaker 1: there and I just it's like a very nice restaurant.

1199
01:05:34,760 --> 01:05:37,360
Speaker 1: It's like, go to this thing you would not and

1200
01:05:37,480 --> 01:05:39,600
Speaker 1: even to eat it. You're like, yeah, okay, this is

1201
01:05:39,760 --> 01:05:41,840
Speaker 1: like a kind of like a stake um back when

1202
01:05:41,880 --> 01:05:45,560
Speaker 1: I was a kid. Yeah, and so that's all there

1203
01:05:45,680 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 1: for what reason? You know? What's the facade? Yeah? And

1204
01:05:47,840 --> 01:05:49,840
Speaker 1: I think I think so let me just say I

1205
01:05:49,920 --> 01:05:53,320
Speaker 1: acknowledge that I can. I can totally get where someone

1206
01:05:53,400 --> 01:05:56,960
Speaker 1: might look at that and say, what the hell are you?

1207
01:05:57,040 --> 01:05:59,640
Speaker 1: Are you trying to like deceive people and make it right?

1208
01:06:00,080 --> 01:06:02,400
Speaker 1: But let me let me let me before you get on. Now.

1209
01:06:02,600 --> 01:06:04,240
Speaker 1: I think there's this is why I was thinking of

1210
01:06:04,320 --> 01:06:06,720
Speaker 1: what I was eating this chicken grinder, and it was

1211
01:06:06,800 --> 01:06:09,760
Speaker 1: like eating this and like this port wheat basted chicken.

1212
01:06:11,080 --> 01:06:13,040
Speaker 1: It was pozzitive to maybe laugh. But there's also a thing.

1213
01:06:13,120 --> 01:06:15,240
Speaker 1: There's a thing we do in hunting that we've discussed

1214
01:06:15,280 --> 01:06:17,280
Speaker 1: on the one Steve's podcast and this one as well.

1215
01:06:17,440 --> 01:06:20,840
Speaker 1: So it's like we we say harvested animal as as

1216
01:06:21,000 --> 01:06:24,040
Speaker 1: as a way as normenclature kind of too put up

1217
01:06:24,280 --> 01:06:26,840
Speaker 1: a facade for some people like I harvested that elt,

1218
01:06:26,920 --> 01:06:30,040
Speaker 1: but yeah you didn't, you killed it. You should say

1219
01:06:30,080 --> 01:06:31,840
Speaker 1: that you killed it. That's that's my belief. I think

1220
01:06:31,840 --> 01:06:33,960
Speaker 1: a lot of people use the term harvest to soften

1221
01:06:35,240 --> 01:06:38,000
Speaker 1: and activity. So my that's my wondering. I'm like, we

1222
01:06:38,160 --> 01:06:40,880
Speaker 1: do that in our world to kind of soften the

1223
01:06:41,000 --> 01:06:44,920
Speaker 1: blow of what's exactly going on here. I'm like, is

1224
01:06:44,960 --> 01:06:48,080
Speaker 1: this what they're doing? Are they trying to soften that

1225
01:06:48,200 --> 01:06:50,800
Speaker 1: it's a vegan place? So that's that's that's where I

1226
01:06:50,880 --> 01:06:53,080
Speaker 1: started in my own mind. So that's great, and I think,

1227
01:06:53,600 --> 01:06:56,320
Speaker 1: and Ben, I'm glad you brought that up because earlier

1228
01:06:56,440 --> 01:06:58,600
Speaker 1: we talked about the issue of like not living in

1229
01:06:58,720 --> 01:07:02,680
Speaker 1: bad faith, and I do think that I and I

1230
01:07:02,760 --> 01:07:05,280
Speaker 1: talk about this in other places where you know, using

1231
01:07:05,320 --> 01:07:10,160
Speaker 1: the word harvest it's a euphemism. Just let's just come

1232
01:07:10,200 --> 01:07:13,960
Speaker 1: out and say, like I agree, let's just say it's killing.

1233
01:07:14,280 --> 01:07:17,280
Speaker 1: Harvesting is a euphemism. For what's happening. It's killing. And

1234
01:07:17,360 --> 01:07:20,000
Speaker 1: I tell people, you know what I do, what I've

1235
01:07:20,040 --> 01:07:21,880
Speaker 1: done hundreds of times in my life, and what you

1236
01:07:22,000 --> 01:07:23,800
Speaker 1: do when you kill an animal. One of the first

1237
01:07:23,880 --> 01:07:26,200
Speaker 1: things that you do to dress it you cut its

1238
01:07:26,240 --> 01:07:29,320
Speaker 1: asshole out. I've cut out hundreds of assholes. Am I

1239
01:07:29,360 --> 01:07:33,000
Speaker 1: supposed to like just gloss over that. I'm ripping hearts

1240
01:07:33,080 --> 01:07:36,240
Speaker 1: out and I'm pulling, you know, intestines out, and I'm

1241
01:07:36,440 --> 01:07:39,120
Speaker 1: cutting tongues out to eat like that? Well, don't you

1242
01:07:39,240 --> 01:07:40,920
Speaker 1: maybe can you can come come up with a new

1243
01:07:43,000 --> 01:07:47,960
Speaker 1: you're your hold or you're removing that, You're you're disorganized.

1244
01:07:50,640 --> 01:07:54,560
Speaker 1: I like that, but disorganization. But yeah, but do I

1245
01:07:54,640 --> 01:07:56,280
Speaker 1: need to come up with I'm not comtab with words

1246
01:07:56,320 --> 01:07:58,000
Speaker 1: for those, and I'm just not talking about it like

1247
01:07:58,080 --> 01:08:00,840
Speaker 1: I'm harvesting the animals. You No, I'm shooting in. I'm

1248
01:08:00,840 --> 01:08:02,760
Speaker 1: walking over to it, I'm ripping its guts out, I'm

1249
01:08:02,760 --> 01:08:05,800
Speaker 1: cutting its asshole out, and I'm splitting its pelvis. I

1250
01:08:05,960 --> 01:08:08,200
Speaker 1: understand that, and I think the gritty nature of that

1251
01:08:09,160 --> 01:08:12,800
Speaker 1: helps me understand the animal, helps me understand what I'm

1252
01:08:12,880 --> 01:08:15,560
Speaker 1: doing in my partner process. So I feel that's important

1253
01:08:15,600 --> 01:08:17,800
Speaker 1: to see it and talk about it and not and

1254
01:08:17,920 --> 01:08:21,200
Speaker 1: not rip it away by saying oh harvest or or

1255
01:08:21,560 --> 01:08:25,519
Speaker 1: not talking about the gritty, bloody nature of being a hunter.

1256
01:08:25,600 --> 01:08:28,519
Speaker 1: I mean, is this it's unavoidable, So why I try

1257
01:08:28,560 --> 01:08:31,120
Speaker 1: to avoid it? No bad I I mean, that's that's

1258
01:08:31,160 --> 01:08:34,120
Speaker 1: you're not living in bad faith. And that's that's that's

1259
01:08:34,160 --> 01:08:37,559
Speaker 1: not common. But but going back to look, I think,

1260
01:08:37,880 --> 01:08:39,840
Speaker 1: let me just say, I think this is actually it's

1261
01:08:39,880 --> 01:08:45,639
Speaker 1: a little more complicated. The surface the surface critique. I understand.

1262
01:08:45,640 --> 01:08:47,800
Speaker 1: It's like you guys are just deceiving. It's not chicken

1263
01:08:47,920 --> 01:08:52,400
Speaker 1: call it, uh, you know, satan based or wheat bit right,

1264
01:08:53,960 --> 01:08:56,240
Speaker 1: But let me let me, let me try this. See

1265
01:08:56,320 --> 01:08:59,160
Speaker 1: see if what you think of this. I'm gonna pull

1266
01:08:59,240 --> 01:09:02,639
Speaker 1: up the picture I took of the men um. So yeah.

1267
01:09:03,000 --> 01:09:06,880
Speaker 1: So now here's a couple of things. So I don't

1268
01:09:06,920 --> 01:09:09,439
Speaker 1: know if you're familiar with there's a whole. There is

1269
01:09:09,520 --> 01:09:13,240
Speaker 1: an entire strand there are within the world of animal rights, philosophy,

1270
01:09:13,520 --> 01:09:17,599
Speaker 1: ethical theory, there's different strands. Now, there's a woman who

1271
01:09:17,640 --> 01:09:20,360
Speaker 1: wrote a book, um, she's a friend of mine, in

1272
01:09:21,360 --> 01:09:24,800
Speaker 1: very influential book called The Sexual Politics of Meat. Her

1273
01:09:24,840 --> 01:09:28,559
Speaker 1: name is Carol j Adams. She's she's she's big time. Now.

1274
01:09:29,479 --> 01:09:32,880
Speaker 1: She has an interesting theory about the relationship between I

1275
01:09:32,960 --> 01:09:37,160
Speaker 1: won't I won't even get into the sexualization and and

1276
01:09:37,320 --> 01:09:42,280
Speaker 1: sort of the the sexualization and feminization of food products

1277
01:09:42,320 --> 01:09:44,400
Speaker 1: and animal products. That that's not that's not the reason

1278
01:09:44,439 --> 01:09:46,920
Speaker 1: I'm bringing up her book. The reason I'm bringing up

1279
01:09:46,960 --> 01:09:49,960
Speaker 1: her book is because she she uses this really in

1280
01:09:50,680 --> 01:09:54,400
Speaker 1: important concept that she calls the absent reference. And this

1281
01:09:54,560 --> 01:09:56,920
Speaker 1: is where I think the answer to the chicken thing

1282
01:09:57,040 --> 01:10:01,040
Speaker 1: is going to be found in. So let's think about

1283
01:10:03,080 --> 01:10:05,080
Speaker 1: chicken is an interesting example. But let's go back to

1284
01:10:05,160 --> 01:10:09,160
Speaker 1: you mentioned steak. So steak is a dead cow, right,

1285
01:10:09,640 --> 01:10:12,840
Speaker 1: so you have so let's think about the production of

1286
01:10:13,000 --> 01:10:15,080
Speaker 1: this object. So you go to a restaurant, you order,

1287
01:10:15,439 --> 01:10:18,280
Speaker 1: you order this object. It has a name on the menu, steak.

1288
01:10:18,640 --> 01:10:21,479
Speaker 1: They bring it to your plate. It's cooked, it's dress,

1289
01:10:21,560 --> 01:10:24,920
Speaker 1: it's all nice, right, and and it smells great. Now

1290
01:10:26,479 --> 01:10:29,280
Speaker 1: that and this is Carol's work on the absent reference.

1291
01:10:29,400 --> 01:10:33,880
Speaker 1: That object there used to be a subject, used to

1292
01:10:33,960 --> 01:10:36,760
Speaker 1: be a living being who had a subjective life, who

1293
01:10:36,840 --> 01:10:39,960
Speaker 1: had experiences, who had joys, who had who you know

1294
01:10:40,080 --> 01:10:45,760
Speaker 1: as a cow and licked its baby in the sun

1295
01:10:46,600 --> 01:10:49,200
Speaker 1: right has had all these things. Right, So now we

1296
01:10:49,280 --> 01:10:54,200
Speaker 1: get this object that is an object of literal, literal consumption.

1297
01:10:54,439 --> 01:10:57,639
Speaker 1: It's it's it's purpose is to be consumed by humans.

1298
01:10:58,400 --> 01:11:02,920
Speaker 1: And so the the referent meaning the thing to which

1299
01:11:03,040 --> 01:11:07,360
Speaker 1: that steak refer the living thing that steak refers to

1300
01:11:07,479 --> 01:11:10,479
Speaker 1: the cow back earlier in the line, that cow is

1301
01:11:10,640 --> 01:11:13,800
Speaker 1: gone from the whole experience. Not only is the cow

1302
01:11:14,000 --> 01:11:16,439
Speaker 1: missing from the experience, it's not even called a cow,

1303
01:11:16,479 --> 01:11:20,280
Speaker 1: it's called something else. Right, So it's it's an invisifying

1304
01:11:20,439 --> 01:11:23,320
Speaker 1: or it's a wiping away of the subjectivity and the

1305
01:11:23,479 --> 01:11:27,240
Speaker 1: sentience of that original being. So so now you have

1306
01:11:27,520 --> 01:11:29,680
Speaker 1: this notion, say of like you go there in your

1307
01:11:29,760 --> 01:11:32,559
Speaker 1: order like a steak, and it's not really steak. Um.

1308
01:11:33,720 --> 01:11:35,960
Speaker 1: So when I talked to Carol, Carol and I haven't

1309
01:11:36,000 --> 01:11:39,720
Speaker 1: had a discussion about about uh. I mean, you know,

1310
01:11:39,800 --> 01:11:41,680
Speaker 1: you're you're out here in California. You're out here in

1311
01:11:41,760 --> 01:11:45,639
Speaker 1: the Bay Area. There's a woman named Miyoko, and Miyoko

1312
01:11:45,800 --> 01:11:49,200
Speaker 1: produces all vegan dairy products, and I gotta tell you

1313
01:11:49,280 --> 01:11:51,880
Speaker 1: they're really good. The vegan butter, Miyoko's vegan This is

1314
01:11:51,880 --> 01:11:54,120
Speaker 1: not a commercial I'm just telling you it's really good

1315
01:11:54,200 --> 01:11:56,080
Speaker 1: as as someone who's eating butter, you know, for many

1316
01:11:56,200 --> 01:11:59,160
Speaker 1: years and who stopped. So Carol and I were having

1317
01:11:59,200 --> 01:12:02,840
Speaker 1: this conversation and I said, she she said, oh, this

1318
01:12:03,000 --> 01:12:07,880
Speaker 1: Mioko's cheese is really she said Mioko's cheese and I said,

1319
01:12:08,680 --> 01:12:11,160
Speaker 1: sort of pejoratively. I was like, you mean, you know,

1320
01:12:11,320 --> 01:12:14,840
Speaker 1: like the fake cheese, and she said to me, no,

1321
01:12:15,760 --> 01:12:19,519
Speaker 1: it's cheese. The notion that cheese has to come from,

1322
01:12:19,800 --> 01:12:22,920
Speaker 1: you know, either a goat or like, like, we are

1323
01:12:23,040 --> 01:12:27,160
Speaker 1: actually upsetting the paradigm. So when we say this is cheese,

1324
01:12:27,560 --> 01:12:29,960
Speaker 1: what we're saying to you is we're trying to change

1325
01:12:30,000 --> 01:12:32,599
Speaker 1: the concept of what cheese is. So when you look

1326
01:12:32,600 --> 01:12:34,720
Speaker 1: at this object that it's made from, like coconut milt,

1327
01:12:34,800 --> 01:12:37,920
Speaker 1: however you know it's made in plant based, to call

1328
01:12:38,000 --> 01:12:42,120
Speaker 1: it fake cheese is too is to capitulate to the

1329
01:12:42,479 --> 01:12:46,400
Speaker 1: to the sort of species ist, anthropocentric paradigm that says

1330
01:12:46,760 --> 01:12:49,160
Speaker 1: cheese has to come from an animal goat, right, right,

1331
01:12:49,560 --> 01:12:54,560
Speaker 1: And so there's there's a kind of political act in saying, no, motherfucker,

1332
01:12:54,720 --> 01:12:57,760
Speaker 1: this is cheese. I'm calling it cheese. If you think

1333
01:12:57,840 --> 01:13:02,559
Speaker 1: cheese requires dairy that's welcome to the new world. Cheese

1334
01:13:02,600 --> 01:13:05,360
Speaker 1: doesn't have to be dairy. Of course, in response to

1335
01:13:05,439 --> 01:13:09,360
Speaker 1: things like Mioko, the dairy industry are trying all across

1336
01:13:09,400 --> 01:13:12,519
Speaker 1: the country right there, passing these labeling laws. You can't

1337
01:13:12,560 --> 01:13:14,880
Speaker 1: say this thing is cheese. You can't use the word

1338
01:13:15,080 --> 01:13:17,840
Speaker 1: even like soy milk. Right, you can't use the word milk.

1339
01:13:18,120 --> 01:13:21,640
Speaker 1: You have to say it's soy derivative. Right. So so

1340
01:13:21,800 --> 01:13:24,559
Speaker 1: now what I what I'm trying to what I'm trying

1341
01:13:24,600 --> 01:13:30,719
Speaker 1: to say here argue, is that calling that chicken thing chicken.

1342
01:13:32,479 --> 01:13:34,439
Speaker 1: You could see it as deceptive, but I think there's

1343
01:13:34,439 --> 01:13:36,559
Speaker 1: a deeper way to think of it. There's a way

1344
01:13:36,600 --> 01:13:40,160
Speaker 1: in which that's a political act to say this is

1345
01:13:40,560 --> 01:13:44,400
Speaker 1: this is chicken. You know, accepted baby, this is chicken.

1346
01:13:44,439 --> 01:13:46,840
Speaker 1: And you might want to go, no, it's deceptive. Chicken

1347
01:13:46,960 --> 01:13:49,479
Speaker 1: is this animal? And you go, no, this is also chicken.

1348
01:13:49,520 --> 01:13:52,200
Speaker 1: Because you see, when I go to a restaurant, I

1349
01:13:52,360 --> 01:13:55,840
Speaker 1: order a real chicken. That is an object that has

1350
01:13:55,880 --> 01:13:58,640
Speaker 1: been separated from the chicken. So so the fact that

1351
01:13:58,680 --> 01:14:01,759
Speaker 1: it carries the same word the chicken from the living

1352
01:14:01,920 --> 01:14:04,960
Speaker 1: being to the chicken on my plate. What I have

1353
01:14:05,080 --> 01:14:08,360
Speaker 1: on my plate is radically far away from the chicken.

1354
01:14:08,439 --> 01:14:10,960
Speaker 1: It's from the animal. And so I think part of

1355
01:14:11,000 --> 01:14:12,559
Speaker 1: what's going on, at least what I want to say

1356
01:14:12,720 --> 01:14:15,920
Speaker 1: is this is this is a this is a fuck

1357
01:14:16,000 --> 01:14:18,519
Speaker 1: you to the paradigm to say, welcome to the new

1358
01:14:18,640 --> 01:14:21,920
Speaker 1: vegan world. It's chicken, like it or not. It's not deceptive.

1359
01:14:21,960 --> 01:14:25,960
Speaker 1: It's meant to push you to rethink what chicken, what

1360
01:14:26,200 --> 01:14:29,800
Speaker 1: pork is So I think I think I think that's

1361
01:14:29,800 --> 01:14:34,280
Speaker 1: where it's comed very existential. Yeah, it is existential. It

1362
01:14:34,439 --> 01:14:37,439
Speaker 1: is it is forcing you to to confront what, what

1363
01:14:37,600 --> 01:14:39,400
Speaker 1: the hell? Why do I believe what I believe? And

1364
01:14:39,640 --> 01:14:41,880
Speaker 1: why do I think that chicken has to be that thing?

1365
01:14:41,960 --> 01:14:44,559
Speaker 1: And is that thing on my plate when I ordered

1366
01:14:44,640 --> 01:14:47,160
Speaker 1: when I go to a quote, you know, regular non

1367
01:14:47,280 --> 01:14:52,080
Speaker 1: vegan restaurant and I order a hamburger, No hamburger. Hamburger

1368
01:14:52,320 --> 01:14:56,479
Speaker 1: is most hamburger other than those that are you know,

1369
01:14:57,560 --> 01:14:59,920
Speaker 1: let's just say a vast man. The majority of ham

1370
01:15:00,000 --> 01:15:04,880
Speaker 1: burger come from cows who underwent stress and were slaughtered

1371
01:15:05,320 --> 01:15:09,000
Speaker 1: and in in suboptimal conditions. Despite with Temple grand And

1372
01:15:09,040 --> 01:15:11,519
Speaker 1: wants to say, and then they're ground up and they're

1373
01:15:11,760 --> 01:15:15,479
Speaker 1: put on a plate. That's what hamburger is, right, and

1374
01:15:15,560 --> 01:15:18,320
Speaker 1: so I get this object that I call hamburger. And

1375
01:15:18,400 --> 01:15:21,519
Speaker 1: what what your son wants to say is we have

1376
01:15:21,600 --> 01:15:25,000
Speaker 1: hamburgers too. They just don't. They don't. They're not. I

1377
01:15:25,080 --> 01:15:27,519
Speaker 1: don't I understand what you're saying. I would just say

1378
01:15:27,640 --> 01:15:29,120
Speaker 1: I would just tell them, like, yep, you got a

1379
01:15:29,240 --> 01:15:32,479
Speaker 1: very like that approach is very existential and probably hard

1380
01:15:32,520 --> 01:15:35,599
Speaker 1: for most people to pick up, or almost a possible

1381
01:15:35,640 --> 01:15:37,240
Speaker 1: just for the regular person to go in and pick

1382
01:15:37,280 --> 01:15:41,639
Speaker 1: all that existential, you know, meandering up what they would

1383
01:15:41,680 --> 01:15:47,160
Speaker 1: pick it up. You'f like chicken substitute or wheat based,

1384
01:15:47,960 --> 01:15:50,840
Speaker 1: you know, supposed to be chicken, saying like this is

1385
01:15:50,880 --> 01:15:53,880
Speaker 1: a replacement for what you normally Isn't this good? You know,

1386
01:15:53,920 --> 01:15:57,720
Speaker 1: it's like almost if you just said to me, if

1387
01:15:57,760 --> 01:15:59,080
Speaker 1: you if you came to me and he said, if

1388
01:15:59,120 --> 01:16:00,920
Speaker 1: you only have to eat this, if you would replace

1389
01:16:01,000 --> 01:16:03,040
Speaker 1: this with chicken, because I don't really eat a whole

1390
01:16:03,080 --> 01:16:05,640
Speaker 1: ton of chicken, because you know, my wife and I

1391
01:16:05,760 --> 01:16:08,200
Speaker 1: have a big argument at home because she would buy

1392
01:16:08,200 --> 01:16:10,599
Speaker 1: a chicken. I'm like, well, I don't want to don't

1393
01:16:10,640 --> 01:16:12,720
Speaker 1: buy a chicken at the store. That's not what we do.

1394
01:16:12,880 --> 01:16:14,519
Speaker 1: We eat wild game. That's all we eat at home,

1395
01:16:14,600 --> 01:16:17,120
Speaker 1: That's what we do. She's like, well, do you haven't

1396
01:16:17,160 --> 01:16:22,519
Speaker 1: killed enough you know, chickens, turkeys? Man, ye, do your job,

1397
01:16:22,600 --> 01:16:25,639
Speaker 1: You're fool. So I would say, okay, well, then next

1398
01:16:25,720 --> 01:16:29,080
Speaker 1: year I need to kill ten turkeys and on this

1399
01:16:29,200 --> 01:16:31,479
Speaker 1: many pheasants and this many quail to kind of offset

1400
01:16:32,800 --> 01:16:35,800
Speaker 1: that thing. But I wouldn't, you know, I wouldn't. I would.

1401
01:16:36,479 --> 01:16:37,960
Speaker 1: I don't know if I can compare that, But that's

1402
01:16:37,960 --> 01:16:42,400
Speaker 1: just that's just me trying to say, I understand white

1403
01:16:42,479 --> 01:16:44,800
Speaker 1: meat is something that I'm going to consume, and I'm

1404
01:16:44,800 --> 01:16:48,519
Speaker 1: trying to change that up adversely to the restaurant. You're like, wow,

1405
01:16:49,560 --> 01:16:52,040
Speaker 1: if you just said this is a ken, this is

1406
01:16:52,120 --> 01:16:55,360
Speaker 1: a possibility to replace the chicken that you eat. Yeah,

1407
01:16:55,400 --> 01:16:57,160
Speaker 1: but hold on, hold on then so it's like there's

1408
01:16:57,160 --> 01:17:00,080
Speaker 1: a replacement theory there. I get it. But what I so,

1409
01:17:00,320 --> 01:17:02,439
Speaker 1: let me just clarify. I don't think I agree with you.

1410
01:17:02,600 --> 01:17:05,200
Speaker 1: You you said something interesting. You're like, look, the average

1411
01:17:05,280 --> 01:17:07,680
Speaker 1: person is not going to do these kind of like

1412
01:17:07,960 --> 01:17:12,640
Speaker 1: philosophical existential gymnastics. But what I want to say is

1413
01:17:12,960 --> 01:17:17,160
Speaker 1: that you don't have to, So so let me you

1414
01:17:17,200 --> 01:17:19,320
Speaker 1: don't have to go through this whole thought process. It's

1415
01:17:19,360 --> 01:17:21,559
Speaker 1: just a it can be seen as a political act.

1416
01:17:21,840 --> 01:17:23,320
Speaker 1: So let me let me give you an example. You

1417
01:17:23,400 --> 01:17:25,639
Speaker 1: mentioned that you have a small child, so let's fast

1418
01:17:25,680 --> 01:17:28,320
Speaker 1: forward thirty years. You have a son or a daughter son,

1419
01:17:28,920 --> 01:17:30,760
Speaker 1: So now your son is your age, she's is in

1420
01:17:30,800 --> 01:17:33,760
Speaker 1: the mid thirties, and and now he goes, hey want

1421
01:17:33,800 --> 01:17:36,320
Speaker 1: some chicken, and it's this stuff you ate at the

1422
01:17:36,479 --> 01:17:40,200
Speaker 1: at the butcher's son. And everyone says and then people go,

1423
01:17:40,320 --> 01:17:43,200
Speaker 1: like chicken, they used to eat those stickam in cages.

1424
01:17:43,800 --> 01:17:47,360
Speaker 1: So now look what Look at what has happened over time,

1425
01:17:48,320 --> 01:17:50,280
Speaker 1: and this has happened. This happens in a lot of

1426
01:17:50,880 --> 01:17:56,519
Speaker 1: justice movements, is that a term gets reappropriated and there's

1427
01:17:56,560 --> 01:17:58,920
Speaker 1: no reason, there's no politically, there's no reason to go

1428
01:17:59,280 --> 01:18:02,080
Speaker 1: this is a chicken and substitute because in the future,

1429
01:18:02,240 --> 01:18:04,720
Speaker 1: if that's what chicken is, that's what chicken becomes. And

1430
01:18:04,760 --> 01:18:06,840
Speaker 1: now look what you've done. If you're a vegan, right,

1431
01:18:07,200 --> 01:18:11,400
Speaker 1: you've you've maintained this the concept and the food thing,

1432
01:18:11,560 --> 01:18:13,720
Speaker 1: the concept of food to eating, and you've and you've

1433
01:18:13,840 --> 01:18:17,519
Speaker 1: decoupled it from that animal that's been suffering. So what

1434
01:18:17,600 --> 01:18:18,920
Speaker 1: I want to say is I don't think you need

1435
01:18:19,000 --> 01:18:20,679
Speaker 1: to do all that. All you gotta do is see

1436
01:18:20,760 --> 01:18:23,679
Speaker 1: it as they're trying to change there. They're subtly trying

1437
01:18:23,720 --> 01:18:27,559
Speaker 1: to change things. So in the future it's acceptable to say, hey,

1438
01:18:27,560 --> 01:18:29,640
Speaker 1: do you want some cheese and they bring out some

1439
01:18:29,720 --> 01:18:32,479
Speaker 1: whatever vegan cheese rather than going do you want some

1440
01:18:32,640 --> 01:18:36,320
Speaker 1: cheese substitute? At that point, you're saying this isn't real cheese,

1441
01:18:36,360 --> 01:18:38,280
Speaker 1: and they want to go No, dude, I'm not gonna

1442
01:18:38,280 --> 01:18:40,080
Speaker 1: I'm not gonna go down that road. Yeah, I would

1443
01:18:40,080 --> 01:18:42,839
Speaker 1: imagine like that. That seems like I say, I disagree

1444
01:18:42,840 --> 01:18:44,320
Speaker 1: with that. It seems weird to me, just for the

1445
01:18:44,400 --> 01:18:46,559
Speaker 1: same reason that harvest and kills seem weird, Like why

1446
01:18:46,600 --> 01:18:48,559
Speaker 1: don't we just say this is a substitute. We're trying

1447
01:18:48,600 --> 01:18:51,000
Speaker 1: to substitute this for chicken. We don't believe. We believe

1448
01:18:51,040 --> 01:18:53,760
Speaker 1: that the most chicken that you eat, or any chicken

1449
01:18:53,840 --> 01:18:56,280
Speaker 1: you're gonna eat, was killed and suffer, and no matter

1450
01:18:56,360 --> 01:18:58,120
Speaker 1: what you do, it can't free range, let it run

1451
01:18:58,160 --> 01:18:59,559
Speaker 1: around the yard, whatever you want to do. It had

1452
01:18:59,600 --> 01:19:01,519
Speaker 1: to suffer to get to your play. Kind of a

1453
01:19:02,240 --> 01:19:04,720
Speaker 1: it's kind of a thing that's based on vision like

1454
01:19:04,800 --> 01:19:06,559
Speaker 1: I didn't see it get here. It had to suffer

1455
01:19:06,640 --> 01:19:09,280
Speaker 1: to get here, right, And so I would like just

1456
01:19:09,439 --> 01:19:11,400
Speaker 1: say and I would sell the butcher son like if

1457
01:19:11,560 --> 01:19:13,200
Speaker 1: I think it would be just as effective just to

1458
01:19:13,280 --> 01:19:15,760
Speaker 1: say straight out. You don't have to say substitute, but

1459
01:19:15,840 --> 01:19:19,799
Speaker 1: you could just say wheat based sandwich. Or it's almost

1460
01:19:19,840 --> 01:19:22,640
Speaker 1: like to give up that you know your believe. I

1461
01:19:22,760 --> 01:19:26,479
Speaker 1: believe that no one should eat chicken ever. But I

1462
01:19:26,560 --> 01:19:28,519
Speaker 1: gotta be real subtle about it to get out of there.

1463
01:19:28,560 --> 01:19:30,479
Speaker 1: I gotta like, I gotta be real subtle to kind

1464
01:19:30,520 --> 01:19:34,519
Speaker 1: of like overtime change the meaning of the thing, rather

1465
01:19:34,600 --> 01:19:36,760
Speaker 1: than just being flat out honest with people, be like,

1466
01:19:36,800 --> 01:19:39,599
Speaker 1: don't eat the chicken, and let's let's have that. Let's

1467
01:19:39,720 --> 01:19:42,840
Speaker 1: let's you know, as you said, let's be fair and

1468
01:19:43,040 --> 01:19:45,200
Speaker 1: and and have good faith in our in the way

1469
01:19:45,280 --> 01:19:47,600
Speaker 1: we approach it, rather than subtly trying to move it

1470
01:19:48,320 --> 01:19:50,080
Speaker 1: to a point where there's a third year old person

1471
01:19:50,120 --> 01:19:52,640
Speaker 1: that doesn't understand what chicken used to be or what

1472
01:19:52,800 --> 01:19:55,840
Speaker 1: it is. It's kind of change in bad faith over time.

1473
01:19:57,120 --> 01:19:59,160
Speaker 1: Just tell me what it is. I don't care in fact,

1474
01:19:59,439 --> 01:20:01,160
Speaker 1: if it's good it's actually to me, It's like I

1475
01:20:01,240 --> 01:20:02,760
Speaker 1: could go home and tell my wife, you know what,

1476
01:20:03,680 --> 01:20:08,080
Speaker 1: instead of getting chicken, why don't we get this thing here?

1477
01:20:08,120 --> 01:20:10,439
Speaker 1: What is this grinder thing? Why don't we get the

1478
01:20:10,479 --> 01:20:14,760
Speaker 1: grinder and we'll vaccine that ship up and whenever and

1479
01:20:14,880 --> 01:20:17,760
Speaker 1: whenever I've been a terrible hunter and we run out

1480
01:20:17,800 --> 01:20:22,600
Speaker 1: of turkey, then we'll eat this for some the substitute

1481
01:20:22,680 --> 01:20:24,599
Speaker 1: that tastes like chicken. Our kid will love it. He'll

1482
01:20:24,680 --> 01:20:26,719
Speaker 1: never know. You won't have to go to the store

1483
01:20:26,760 --> 01:20:28,920
Speaker 1: and participate in factory. For me, I'm not going to

1484
01:20:29,000 --> 01:20:31,400
Speaker 1: feel bad as a shitty hunter, and we've got this

1485
01:20:31,600 --> 01:20:34,280
Speaker 1: thing here that can help us. And so I see

1486
01:20:34,360 --> 01:20:35,880
Speaker 1: when I'm eating that, I'm like, dude, you guys are

1487
01:20:35,920 --> 01:20:38,960
Speaker 1: missing the freaking point here, Like this is somebody like

1488
01:20:39,080 --> 01:20:42,519
Speaker 1: me who believes my consumption is very important. I would

1489
01:20:42,560 --> 01:20:45,000
Speaker 1: take part in the chicken grinder. Everything you know and

1490
01:20:45,120 --> 01:20:49,559
Speaker 1: some you know, some products, some vegan products. They for example,

1491
01:20:49,680 --> 01:20:51,720
Speaker 1: I don't I don't say the brand, but they have

1492
01:20:52,000 --> 01:20:56,559
Speaker 1: chicken patties. It's like c H I K. And right.

1493
01:20:56,640 --> 01:21:01,040
Speaker 1: So it's like it's like stopping chicken the thing because

1494
01:21:01,080 --> 01:21:02,840
Speaker 1: I would argue, like I said, I would argue as

1495
01:21:02,840 --> 01:21:06,400
Speaker 1: a mediator that I wouldn't much rather eat the vegan

1496
01:21:06,520 --> 01:21:09,400
Speaker 1: version of chicken as it stands now than eat actual chicken.

1497
01:21:11,080 --> 01:21:14,799
Speaker 1: It would be either wild turkey or a plant based replacement.

1498
01:21:14,920 --> 01:21:17,080
Speaker 1: That's cool. I love to eat plants. I eat them

1499
01:21:17,120 --> 01:21:19,760
Speaker 1: all the time, you know, So let's let's let's give

1500
01:21:19,840 --> 01:21:22,000
Speaker 1: me the chance to get at that. And it even

1501
01:21:22,040 --> 01:21:23,920
Speaker 1: removes my own kind of My wife would be like, well,

1502
01:21:23,960 --> 01:21:26,120
Speaker 1: that says chicken on it, Like it's not chicken. Then

1503
01:21:26,120 --> 01:21:28,880
Speaker 1: I have to explain the existential crisis. I'd much rather

1504
01:21:28,960 --> 01:21:31,080
Speaker 1: be like, this is some wheat ship or what a

1505
01:21:31,240 --> 01:21:33,559
Speaker 1: jackfruit or whatever it is. It tastes really good. You're

1506
01:21:33,560 --> 01:21:36,040
Speaker 1: not gonna worry about it. This is what a jackfruit is.

1507
01:21:36,600 --> 01:21:38,760
Speaker 1: Just eat it. And she's like, yeah, that's great. No,

1508
01:21:38,880 --> 01:21:42,000
Speaker 1: I get it. Yeah, And look, I'm with you. I

1509
01:21:42,479 --> 01:21:44,840
Speaker 1: see what you're saying. Again. I just think it's a

1510
01:21:44,920 --> 01:21:47,040
Speaker 1: way of seeing it as a political statement, as a

1511
01:21:47,120 --> 01:21:50,760
Speaker 1: subversive act. I think that, and I just don't. I

1512
01:21:50,800 --> 01:21:53,080
Speaker 1: don't think it's necessary. I would argue that like veganism

1513
01:21:53,120 --> 01:21:55,080
Speaker 1: in itself is like, it's not a bad thing, and

1514
01:21:55,280 --> 01:21:57,840
Speaker 1: especially in the way that you present it, says like,

1515
01:21:57,960 --> 01:22:01,320
Speaker 1: let's let's just embrace it in a way that because

1516
01:22:01,320 --> 01:22:05,000
Speaker 1: there's a lot of people like me that don't feel like, hmm,

1517
01:22:05,280 --> 01:22:06,840
Speaker 1: if you're trying to if you're telling me this is

1518
01:22:06,840 --> 01:22:09,360
Speaker 1: a chicken, what aren't what? Also aren't you telling me

1519
01:22:09,840 --> 01:22:12,639
Speaker 1: you know what other submersive things you're trying to get

1520
01:22:12,680 --> 01:22:15,160
Speaker 1: me to believe? You know, it seems seems just ingenuous.

1521
01:22:15,680 --> 01:22:17,639
Speaker 1: But I did enjoy to go back to the butcher.

1522
01:22:17,680 --> 01:22:20,840
Speaker 1: Sound great job on the chicken sandwich. I took, Yeah,

1523
01:22:20,840 --> 01:22:22,200
Speaker 1: I eat half of them. Took the other half of

1524
01:22:22,200 --> 01:22:25,040
Speaker 1: the hotel chickens are that sandwiches are so big you

1525
01:22:25,520 --> 01:22:27,560
Speaker 1: can giant I got. I was there not longer. I

1526
01:22:27,640 --> 01:22:31,000
Speaker 1: got the It was like a rubin, which I think

1527
01:22:31,080 --> 01:22:33,639
Speaker 1: is like I guess I had the menu people because

1528
01:22:33,640 --> 01:22:35,519
Speaker 1: people were like, what are you talking to? This is insane.

1529
01:22:35,520 --> 01:22:37,599
Speaker 1: I'm like, oh, it's not insane. It's good. It's actually good.

1530
01:22:37,720 --> 01:22:39,920
Speaker 1: If they would just say, like good food made of

1531
01:22:40,000 --> 01:22:44,280
Speaker 1: ship you don't normally eat. They are like hot garlic, lemon, chicken, pesto,

1532
01:22:45,120 --> 01:22:51,760
Speaker 1: pulled barbecue, pulled pork. That was like, uba, now you

1533
01:22:51,800 --> 01:22:57,360
Speaker 1: say that, you bab um. Hot roast beef. I didn't

1534
01:22:57,360 --> 01:22:59,560
Speaker 1: say what that is, and it doesn't even say what

1535
01:22:59,600 --> 01:23:01,759
Speaker 1: it is. It just says slice soured with grilled onions,

1536
01:23:01,800 --> 01:23:03,719
Speaker 1: little gem blood. It It says like all the ingredients,

1537
01:23:03,760 --> 01:23:06,560
Speaker 1: but not what the beef actually is. And that was

1538
01:23:06,840 --> 01:23:09,599
Speaker 1: confusing to me. I'm like, I just what is it? Right?

1539
01:23:09,800 --> 01:23:11,560
Speaker 1: Tell me? I'd love to because I'll be making it

1540
01:23:11,600 --> 01:23:14,120
Speaker 1: at home, you know, if I run out of if

1541
01:23:14,400 --> 01:23:17,439
Speaker 1: I miss an elk this year, I'll be I'll be eating.

1542
01:23:17,479 --> 01:23:19,280
Speaker 1: But if you if you went to a restaurant ben

1543
01:23:19,360 --> 01:23:23,400
Speaker 1: and and like a lot of people don't know. I

1544
01:23:24,080 --> 01:23:26,479
Speaker 1: once again, I'm just I'm kind of talking out my ask.

1545
01:23:26,520 --> 01:23:28,200
Speaker 1: But what I'm trying to say is there are people.

1546
01:23:28,680 --> 01:23:32,280
Speaker 1: There are people who don't know. Does everyone know that

1547
01:23:32,439 --> 01:23:36,080
Speaker 1: like beef is a cow and pork? I mean, I'm

1548
01:23:36,120 --> 01:23:38,479
Speaker 1: sure most people do. But what I'm getting at is

1549
01:23:38,520 --> 01:23:40,040
Speaker 1: if you go to a regular restaurant and says like

1550
01:23:41,240 --> 01:23:44,519
Speaker 1: all beef hot dog, does it say dead cow and

1551
01:23:44,960 --> 01:23:47,439
Speaker 1: you just go it's beef? Right? Yeah? I mean, but

1552
01:23:47,479 --> 01:23:49,639
Speaker 1: then you would say, like people are calling it beef

1553
01:23:49,800 --> 01:23:52,479
Speaker 1: to make a political statement. No, they're just that's what

1554
01:23:52,600 --> 01:23:54,920
Speaker 1: they call it. But I'm saying I agree with you.

1555
01:23:55,000 --> 01:23:56,559
Speaker 1: You're saying, Look, I'd like to know what the hell

1556
01:23:56,640 --> 01:23:58,519
Speaker 1: this thing is made of. And I think a lot

1557
01:23:58,560 --> 01:24:00,920
Speaker 1: of people that I present that to on Instagram or

1558
01:24:01,040 --> 01:24:03,400
Speaker 1: that too, like what is jack fruit? Is good? Can

1559
01:24:03,439 --> 01:24:05,800
Speaker 1: I cook with it? Could I if if I run

1560
01:24:05,840 --> 01:24:08,240
Speaker 1: out of venison, crack that thing open and have a

1561
01:24:08,360 --> 01:24:12,040
Speaker 1: nice venison facimile for dinner. I don't know. It's not

1562
01:24:12,120 --> 01:24:14,560
Speaker 1: on the menu. So that was It's just one of

1563
01:24:14,600 --> 01:24:17,280
Speaker 1: those other things that for me, it would make it

1564
01:24:17,360 --> 01:24:20,479
Speaker 1: more approachable for me, would make it less like you're

1565
01:24:20,479 --> 01:24:23,840
Speaker 1: trying to tell me make the statement, because if you're

1566
01:24:23,880 --> 01:24:28,360
Speaker 1: not totally wrong, And even in this conversation, I'm having

1567
01:24:28,360 --> 01:24:30,760
Speaker 1: a bit of like, oh I would eat that ship.

1568
01:24:30,960 --> 01:24:34,200
Speaker 1: I should figure out what that is because I only

1569
01:24:34,280 --> 01:24:36,840
Speaker 1: killed four turkeys this year and I was aiming to

1570
01:24:36,880 --> 01:24:39,880
Speaker 1: kill ten. So eventually, you know, even for me, my

1571
01:24:39,960 --> 01:24:42,559
Speaker 1: wife and I get like the preciousness of the meat.

1572
01:24:42,640 --> 01:24:46,880
Speaker 1: She we got a thing called an Insta pot. Yeah, man,

1573
01:24:47,040 --> 01:24:49,120
Speaker 1: the inst which I like. I like the Insta pot.

1574
01:24:49,160 --> 01:24:50,679
Speaker 1: I like that. I live in an age where Insta

1575
01:24:50,760 --> 01:24:53,720
Speaker 1: pots a thing. She put some turkey in the Insta pot.

1576
01:24:54,000 --> 01:24:56,760
Speaker 1: She has a little child run around, happened to forget

1577
01:24:56,840 --> 01:24:59,720
Speaker 1: it was in there, came out not so good, and

1578
01:24:59,840 --> 01:25:01,760
Speaker 1: she you and I always get mad at that. I

1579
01:25:01,880 --> 01:25:03,800
Speaker 1: can't help, but I have some anger towards that, And

1580
01:25:03,880 --> 01:25:06,240
Speaker 1: she's like, why are you so mad? Because I can't

1581
01:25:06,479 --> 01:25:09,120
Speaker 1: just go out and get that now, like that that

1582
01:25:09,280 --> 01:25:12,120
Speaker 1: was the thing that I can't replace, and so it

1583
01:25:12,200 --> 01:25:15,320
Speaker 1: becomes much more of a replucious, a precious thing. And

1584
01:25:15,400 --> 01:25:18,880
Speaker 1: if some real smart vegan at the butcher's son was like, hey, man,

1585
01:25:19,400 --> 01:25:22,400
Speaker 1: I have found a replacement and it tastes great, and

1586
01:25:22,520 --> 01:25:24,400
Speaker 1: your kids will eat it and your wife will eat it,

1587
01:25:24,840 --> 01:25:27,360
Speaker 1: and you don't have to participate in any kind of bullshit,

1588
01:25:27,560 --> 01:25:31,800
Speaker 1: per do. I'm like, okay, sweet, let's go put some

1589
01:25:31,840 --> 01:25:35,000
Speaker 1: peppers on it. Let's hit it. So that's something it was.

1590
01:25:35,439 --> 01:25:36,920
Speaker 1: I'm glad I went there, and I'm glad to have

1591
01:25:37,000 --> 01:25:40,600
Speaker 1: those conversations. Um, let's get it. Let's get to you know,

1592
01:25:41,680 --> 01:25:44,160
Speaker 1: more of your academic stuff and and some of the

1593
01:25:44,240 --> 01:25:48,280
Speaker 1: things that you said and um in the paper. And

1594
01:25:48,400 --> 01:25:50,920
Speaker 1: I think that, like I said, I'm reading a lot

1595
01:25:50,960 --> 01:25:53,720
Speaker 1: of this stuff. I'm like, man, there's a whole lot

1596
01:25:53,800 --> 01:25:57,040
Speaker 1: in here that I can get with. You went through

1597
01:25:57,120 --> 01:25:58,880
Speaker 1: in there and I said, it's been years since you've

1598
01:25:58,880 --> 01:26:02,240
Speaker 1: written this, but it kind of what you're stated support

1599
01:26:02,320 --> 01:26:06,240
Speaker 1: for vegan ethical veganism, and and kind of the reasons

1600
01:26:06,400 --> 01:26:08,800
Speaker 1: that you got there. And as I looked at it,

1601
01:26:08,880 --> 01:26:12,760
Speaker 1: it's a it's a man, it's weighty, it's heavy, you said, um,

1602
01:26:14,280 --> 01:26:16,800
Speaker 1: and you stated work that you support ethical visas as

1603
01:26:16,920 --> 01:26:23,960
Speaker 1: empowering response to the cost in terms of violence, suffering, exploitation, domination, objectification,

1604
01:26:24,120 --> 01:26:27,519
Speaker 1: commodification of animals for food, the destruction of the environment,

1605
01:26:27,640 --> 01:26:29,840
Speaker 1: the placement of animals in the process, as well as

1606
01:26:29,880 --> 01:26:31,920
Speaker 1: the cost of our own health and the health of

1607
01:26:31,960 --> 01:26:34,760
Speaker 1: the planet. Then these things call for media affect them

1608
01:26:34,840 --> 01:26:38,920
Speaker 1: decisive action at the personal, collective, and policy levels. I mean,

1609
01:26:39,000 --> 01:26:43,599
Speaker 1: that's who wrote I wrote that cheese was a good day.

1610
01:26:44,520 --> 01:26:46,200
Speaker 1: I mean, that's like to read that. I read that

1611
01:26:46,439 --> 01:26:50,200
Speaker 1: like yeah, I mean, I yeah, I'm I'm with you.

1612
01:26:50,920 --> 01:26:53,080
Speaker 1: There's not a whole lot that I can pull back

1613
01:26:53,120 --> 01:26:55,160
Speaker 1: from in that, Like I want all the things that

1614
01:26:55,360 --> 01:26:57,360
Speaker 1: that you want to talk. As I said, it's been

1615
01:26:57,400 --> 01:26:59,719
Speaker 1: a while since that was those words were strung together,

1616
01:26:59,800 --> 01:27:03,519
Speaker 1: but imagine that's still typifying. Yeah, no, I haven't. I haven't.

1617
01:27:05,320 --> 01:27:08,799
Speaker 1: So just talk about that the whole of what moves

1618
01:27:08,880 --> 01:27:11,760
Speaker 1: you to this, because we know now that you've eat meat,

1619
01:27:11,800 --> 01:27:14,840
Speaker 1: you've hunted and done things, killed things, And I just

1620
01:27:15,080 --> 01:27:17,760
Speaker 1: this that that paragraph was was was powerful to me

1621
01:27:17,920 --> 01:27:21,080
Speaker 1: to read. Well, I think, first of all, as far

1622
01:27:21,200 --> 01:27:26,040
Speaker 1: as I think, the motivation for ethical veganism, for most

1623
01:27:26,200 --> 01:27:29,720
Speaker 1: of us who are ethical vegans, is that we have

1624
01:27:29,880 --> 01:27:39,400
Speaker 1: a desire two two um decrease unnecessary suffering in the world. So,

1625
01:27:40,640 --> 01:27:42,960
Speaker 1: you know, I walk, you know, whatever lifespan I have,

1626
01:27:43,200 --> 01:27:47,560
Speaker 1: I have this kind of footprint I leave and hopefully

1627
01:27:47,720 --> 01:27:51,160
Speaker 1: I can be as I can be, as as low

1628
01:27:51,280 --> 01:27:53,880
Speaker 1: impact as as I as possible. Of course, none of

1629
01:27:53,920 --> 01:27:57,000
Speaker 1: this is perfect, right, Like I drove here, it's not,

1630
01:27:57,120 --> 01:27:59,360
Speaker 1: and it's not somethingly back clean like I drove here

1631
01:27:59,400 --> 01:28:02,040
Speaker 1: today to meet you. How many insects I must have

1632
01:28:02,160 --> 01:28:04,679
Speaker 1: killed hundreds of them on the freeway. So I'm killing

1633
01:28:04,800 --> 01:28:08,519
Speaker 1: just driving here. I have an automobile, it's using fossil

1634
01:28:08,560 --> 01:28:10,559
Speaker 1: fuel and so so. So this is what I say

1635
01:28:10,600 --> 01:28:12,720
Speaker 1: in the paper, what Laurie and I say, is that

1636
01:28:13,800 --> 01:28:18,800
Speaker 1: we're all involved in this, in this endeavor of destruction.

1637
01:28:19,240 --> 01:28:22,840
Speaker 1: Now does that mean that I just throw up my hands,

1638
01:28:22,920 --> 01:28:25,479
Speaker 1: go fuck it, it doesn't matter. Just eat whatever you want,

1639
01:28:25,600 --> 01:28:29,840
Speaker 1: Just drive freaking fly everywhere, right, No, it doesn't mean that, right,

1640
01:28:30,560 --> 01:28:35,439
Speaker 1: So they're the connection. So if if I'm motivated by

1641
01:28:35,560 --> 01:28:38,880
Speaker 1: this kind of imperative to say, I want to be

1642
01:28:39,320 --> 01:28:42,519
Speaker 1: as gentle as I can, I want to cause as

1643
01:28:42,720 --> 01:28:46,519
Speaker 1: little suffering as possible, if it's possible, whatever I can

1644
01:28:46,600 --> 01:28:50,960
Speaker 1: do whenever I make decisions, especially as a consumer in

1645
01:28:51,240 --> 01:28:54,160
Speaker 1: you know, affluent in an affluent you know, the most

1646
01:28:54,240 --> 01:28:59,080
Speaker 1: affluent country in on the planet in history. Um, what

1647
01:28:59,240 --> 01:29:03,200
Speaker 1: kind of choice can I make that will reflect, um,

1648
01:29:03,640 --> 01:29:08,639
Speaker 1: the ethic of of of you know, non mouth feasance

1649
01:29:08,680 --> 01:29:12,400
Speaker 1: of of decreasing suffering. When I look at the way

1650
01:29:12,439 --> 01:29:17,679
Speaker 1: that food is produced, particularly with regard to animal based food,

1651
01:29:19,040 --> 01:29:22,720
Speaker 1: as I mentioned in there, what I see is on

1652
01:29:22,960 --> 01:29:27,400
Speaker 1: so many levels there's so much suffering and there's so

1653
01:29:27,560 --> 01:29:33,599
Speaker 1: much destruction. The animals themselves are as I mentioned there,

1654
01:29:34,000 --> 01:29:38,400
Speaker 1: there's violence involved. And I'll use chickens as as an

1655
01:29:38,400 --> 01:29:40,320
Speaker 1: example since we were talking about chicken. I mean, chicken

1656
01:29:40,600 --> 01:29:44,280
Speaker 1: are the most abused animals on the planet. The number

1657
01:29:44,320 --> 01:29:47,760
Speaker 1: of chickens, it's hard to wrap your mind around. Just

1658
01:29:48,360 --> 01:29:52,120
Speaker 1: in the United States, there's about nine billion chickens, right,

1659
01:29:52,160 --> 01:29:55,719
Speaker 1: so more than the entire population of the Earth planetary wise,

1660
01:29:55,800 --> 01:29:59,719
Speaker 1: it's like forty billion chickens. These are annual you know figures.

1661
01:30:00,439 --> 01:30:05,080
Speaker 1: So the way the chickens are treated is abominable. There's

1662
01:30:05,120 --> 01:30:08,960
Speaker 1: no no one who has a heart whatever wish that

1663
01:30:09,160 --> 01:30:12,439
Speaker 1: upon a sentient being. Right, So when I say that

1664
01:30:12,840 --> 01:30:18,840
Speaker 1: there's violence involved, there's domination involved. There is commodification, right,

1665
01:30:18,960 --> 01:30:22,000
Speaker 1: commodification meaning that And this goes to what we talked

1666
01:30:22,000 --> 01:30:23,800
Speaker 1: about a little bit earlier. It's like the being, the

1667
01:30:23,960 --> 01:30:27,600
Speaker 1: sentient being, the you know, chickens are and and and

1668
01:30:27,680 --> 01:30:30,240
Speaker 1: this is what I I I'd like to think. You know,

1669
01:30:30,360 --> 01:30:32,800
Speaker 1: we think like, oh, chickens are not that smart, but

1670
01:30:33,600 --> 01:30:36,360
Speaker 1: but ben just think about all the all the organisms

1671
01:30:36,439 --> 01:30:39,040
Speaker 1: that live on the planet Earth. Right, There's like micro organisms,

1672
01:30:39,040 --> 01:30:41,960
Speaker 1: there's little things that live on like our eyelids, and

1673
01:30:42,040 --> 01:30:45,280
Speaker 1: then there's like human beings right in the grand scheme,

1674
01:30:45,400 --> 01:30:49,559
Speaker 1: there's like carrots and grass. Chickens are pretty fucking smart, right,

1675
01:30:49,600 --> 01:30:51,840
Speaker 1: I mean, like compared to all that ship right, like

1676
01:30:52,000 --> 01:30:56,560
Speaker 1: treating Okay, well, they can be ruthless. Um, you know,

1677
01:30:56,800 --> 01:31:00,000
Speaker 1: I don't know who would be the most ruthless species.

1678
01:31:00,120 --> 01:31:03,920
Speaker 1: We could probably have a debate about that where um

1679
01:31:04,400 --> 01:31:07,600
Speaker 1: but uh or a discussion but but but anyway. So

1680
01:31:08,280 --> 01:31:12,200
Speaker 1: my point is that, um, the chickens are commodified, and

1681
01:31:12,280 --> 01:31:14,640
Speaker 1: that they're turned into command they're turned into things to

1682
01:31:14,720 --> 01:31:19,000
Speaker 1: be there's there. Their sole value is the value they

1683
01:31:19,040 --> 01:31:22,120
Speaker 1: have in in markets to to create profits and stuff

1684
01:31:22,160 --> 01:31:26,759
Speaker 1: like this. So that process of taking a living sentient

1685
01:31:26,920 --> 01:31:31,560
Speaker 1: being and and dominating it, and and and perpetrating a

1686
01:31:31,640 --> 01:31:35,240
Speaker 1: kind of violence against it and co modifying it, that

1687
01:31:35,479 --> 01:31:39,160
Speaker 1: just doesn't align with my values of wanting to walk

1688
01:31:39,240 --> 01:31:43,360
Speaker 1: on the earth and decreased suffering. So with that aspect,

1689
01:31:43,600 --> 01:31:46,880
Speaker 1: I feel like I just don't want to take that

1690
01:31:47,280 --> 01:31:52,080
Speaker 1: chicken into my body. It's it's not something that I

1691
01:31:52,200 --> 01:31:56,320
Speaker 1: could even bring myself to do. Does it taste good?

1692
01:31:56,520 --> 01:31:59,560
Speaker 1: Have I eaten millions of pounds of chick? Yeah? Is

1693
01:31:59,600 --> 01:32:02,479
Speaker 1: it the Yeah? But that's not the point right now

1694
01:32:03,840 --> 01:32:08,439
Speaker 1: with regard to that yet passage that you read that system,

1695
01:32:08,600 --> 01:32:12,080
Speaker 1: that the system that produces that chicken, let's say that

1696
01:32:12,280 --> 01:32:14,559
Speaker 1: brings it to the table at the restaurant or brings

1697
01:32:14,600 --> 01:32:19,920
Speaker 1: it to the supermarket. That system, in my estimation, speaking

1698
01:32:19,960 --> 01:32:24,120
Speaker 1: of pretty is ruthless. It's it's it's ruthless. The the

1699
01:32:24,520 --> 01:32:28,280
Speaker 1: there's it's at the expense of not only the health

1700
01:32:28,360 --> 01:32:30,960
Speaker 1: of the planet, but our personal health. Right. So you

1701
01:32:31,040 --> 01:32:33,920
Speaker 1: have this industry that's producing in the United States nine

1702
01:32:34,000 --> 01:32:40,400
Speaker 1: billion chickens a year, polluting our water, um, polluting our air.

1703
01:32:40,479 --> 01:32:43,160
Speaker 1: It's one of the one of the highest fossil fuel

1704
01:32:43,439 --> 01:32:48,559
Speaker 1: producing products is animal products, right, And and and draining

1705
01:32:48,600 --> 01:32:53,880
Speaker 1: the actifers aquifers um increasing antibiotic resistant uh you know,

1706
01:32:54,160 --> 01:32:58,679
Speaker 1: um organisms. So so then I look and I'm like, wait,

1707
01:32:59,200 --> 01:33:02,280
Speaker 1: this isn't only a about me feeling like I don't

1708
01:33:02,320 --> 01:33:05,160
Speaker 1: want to cause suffering to that chicken because I want

1709
01:33:05,160 --> 01:33:07,960
Speaker 1: to be as nonviolent as possible. But here I am

1710
01:33:08,479 --> 01:33:12,639
Speaker 1: contributing to the destruction of the planet. I'm like, wow,

1711
01:33:12,760 --> 01:33:17,559
Speaker 1: So my consumer choices as as as a as a consumer,

1712
01:33:17,600 --> 01:33:19,880
Speaker 1: even if I'm a vegan, right, this will anyone who's

1713
01:33:19,880 --> 01:33:21,760
Speaker 1: a consumer has to have this kind of at least

1714
01:33:21,760 --> 01:33:23,960
Speaker 1: I believe, has to have this kind of mindset. And

1715
01:33:24,040 --> 01:33:28,680
Speaker 1: then there's issues of health and and and I know

1716
01:33:28,800 --> 01:33:31,120
Speaker 1: I we haven't talked about this, but I know you,

1717
01:33:31,600 --> 01:33:33,080
Speaker 1: I know you're going to agree with this. It's like,

1718
01:33:34,280 --> 01:33:37,720
Speaker 1: just just take human beings, Homo sapiens, who we've been

1719
01:33:37,760 --> 01:33:39,240
Speaker 1: here a quarter of a million years, which is a

1720
01:33:39,320 --> 01:33:42,640
Speaker 1: blink blink in the eye of the eye in in

1721
01:33:42,840 --> 01:33:47,080
Speaker 1: in geologic time, and then like how long have we

1722
01:33:47,240 --> 01:33:50,000
Speaker 1: been eating ship? Like we rip open a plastic thing

1723
01:33:50,040 --> 01:33:52,040
Speaker 1: and eat this shin and throw it and then go

1724
01:33:52,200 --> 01:33:54,280
Speaker 1: to this store and get this Like that's gotta be

1725
01:33:54,600 --> 01:33:56,600
Speaker 1: a hundred years or so. Well, it's the way it

1726
01:33:56,640 --> 01:33:59,280
Speaker 1: breaks down, is it. I think it's like a hundred thousand.

1727
01:34:00,560 --> 01:34:02,280
Speaker 1: I always get just number. I'm pretty sure it's I

1728
01:34:02,320 --> 01:34:04,960
Speaker 1: always think it's crazy to think of, but hundred thousand

1729
01:34:05,040 --> 01:34:09,200
Speaker 1: generations of people lived as hunter gatherers. Then you get

1730
01:34:09,240 --> 01:34:12,920
Speaker 1: into the industrial revolution, basically there's about two or three

1731
01:34:12,960 --> 01:34:15,960
Speaker 1: generations there, and then processed foods, there's about two or

1732
01:34:16,040 --> 01:34:18,400
Speaker 1: three generations in there. There's a lot of play, I'm

1733
01:34:18,439 --> 01:34:21,360
Speaker 1: sure in that in that run. But that's that's what's

1734
01:34:21,520 --> 01:34:24,200
Speaker 1: that's what we're dealing with. We're dealing with the matriculation

1735
01:34:24,280 --> 01:34:27,639
Speaker 1: of time. Like all the time we were one thing

1736
01:34:28,200 --> 01:34:32,360
Speaker 1: and now we've found ourselves and only six versions of people,

1737
01:34:33,400 --> 01:34:36,439
Speaker 1: so far away from the thing we always were, that

1738
01:34:37,520 --> 01:34:40,360
Speaker 1: there's so many luxuries that we just never had and

1739
01:34:40,520 --> 01:34:43,200
Speaker 1: so remove from our own humanity in so many ways,

1740
01:34:43,280 --> 01:34:45,000
Speaker 1: not just the way we eat, but all the things

1741
01:34:46,240 --> 01:34:49,360
Speaker 1: that it's you know, it's strange to think of these crises,

1742
01:34:49,560 --> 01:34:53,160
Speaker 1: crises and you know, and you know, self identity like

1743
01:34:53,240 --> 01:34:55,479
Speaker 1: what are we and why are we here? And you know,

1744
01:34:55,600 --> 01:34:57,599
Speaker 1: and so for me, that's led to a lot of things.

1745
01:34:57,680 --> 01:35:00,360
Speaker 1: But I'll tell you what I mean, Honey, hunting led

1746
01:35:00,400 --> 01:35:02,840
Speaker 1: me to garden. I never gardened before I was before

1747
01:35:02,880 --> 01:35:04,720
Speaker 1: I hunted, and I I was looking like that, that's

1748
01:35:04,760 --> 01:35:07,479
Speaker 1: cool to know where that came from. Boy, I better?

1749
01:35:08,400 --> 01:35:10,519
Speaker 1: Why am I? Why would I be so involved in

1750
01:35:10,600 --> 01:35:14,120
Speaker 1: knowing where this piece of steak came from and then

1751
01:35:14,280 --> 01:35:16,479
Speaker 1: not know where that carrot came from or not know

1752
01:35:17,400 --> 01:35:20,120
Speaker 1: you know, and hopefully you know why was my wife

1753
01:35:20,160 --> 01:35:22,080
Speaker 1: and I are done having children, will have chickens and

1754
01:35:22,160 --> 01:35:25,599
Speaker 1: other things that helped to mitigate those things. So it's

1755
01:35:25,640 --> 01:35:27,880
Speaker 1: kind of led me down the path of isn't it

1756
01:35:27,960 --> 01:35:31,840
Speaker 1: hypocritical for me to, you know, do this, like to say,

1757
01:35:31,920 --> 01:35:33,360
Speaker 1: hold up my hand and be like, look at my meat.

1758
01:35:33,439 --> 01:35:35,120
Speaker 1: I know where that came from, and then ate grass

1759
01:35:35,160 --> 01:35:38,280
Speaker 1: when that ridge over there? And but but this carrot funk,

1760
01:35:38,320 --> 01:35:40,720
Speaker 1: I don't know? You know? Or this you know? This

1761
01:35:41,479 --> 01:35:44,400
Speaker 1: macaray and cheese I don't know. And so as you're

1762
01:35:44,439 --> 01:35:48,559
Speaker 1: saying I mean, there's just something about knowing that we're

1763
01:35:48,800 --> 01:35:50,679
Speaker 1: the engines of consumption. We wake up in the morning,

1764
01:35:50,720 --> 01:35:55,040
Speaker 1: we just consume. We consume the air, consume everything. Um.

1765
01:35:55,360 --> 01:35:57,519
Speaker 1: And there's layers to our consumption. If you can peel

1766
01:35:57,520 --> 01:35:59,439
Speaker 1: back a few of the shitty layers or your consumption

1767
01:35:59,479 --> 01:36:02,400
Speaker 1: and get down to the raw form of what you're eating,

1768
01:36:02,800 --> 01:36:05,920
Speaker 1: why wouldn't you? It is my question, because it seems

1769
01:36:05,960 --> 01:36:10,680
Speaker 1: fucking lazy, not supposed to cut anymore? People don't were

1770
01:36:10,680 --> 01:36:14,559
Speaker 1: you cousin, I wouldn't even pay because I've heard your part.

1771
01:36:14,640 --> 01:36:16,560
Speaker 1: I know, I told I was told recently that that.

1772
01:36:18,160 --> 01:36:20,120
Speaker 1: But I I think I got kids. I probably shouldn't

1773
01:36:20,120 --> 01:36:23,200
Speaker 1: say for it, but um, it'll take me a while

1774
01:36:23,240 --> 01:36:26,240
Speaker 1: to get out of it. But anyway, fuck it. Um

1775
01:36:27,400 --> 01:36:30,800
Speaker 1: we're like, that's that's the type of being that we are,

1776
01:36:31,000 --> 01:36:34,400
Speaker 1: Like we've are. We've reached a point now and intellectually

1777
01:36:34,439 --> 01:36:36,280
Speaker 1: where we can kind of start peeling back the layers

1778
01:36:36,320 --> 01:36:39,120
Speaker 1: of our consumption where when we were hunter gatherers we

1779
01:36:39,160 --> 01:36:42,400
Speaker 1: didn't have the luxury to peel back those layers. And

1780
01:36:42,520 --> 01:36:45,120
Speaker 1: so there's And I told our animal rights folks the

1781
01:36:45,160 --> 01:36:47,400
Speaker 1: other day, I said, I think history is progressive, and

1782
01:36:47,439 --> 01:36:49,280
Speaker 1: I think I don't think that I know, and I

1783
01:36:49,360 --> 01:36:52,760
Speaker 1: just I've read it that I've experienced it and seeing that,

1784
01:36:54,400 --> 01:36:57,120
Speaker 1: you know, the progressive idea, let's move past slavery, let's

1785
01:36:57,160 --> 01:36:59,920
Speaker 1: move past you know, Jim Crow, Let's move like we've

1786
01:37:00,520 --> 01:37:03,320
Speaker 1: we eventually get there. So there's it is a part

1787
01:37:03,360 --> 01:37:07,040
Speaker 1: of me that wonders whether and Steve openly wondered it

1788
01:37:07,080 --> 01:37:09,040
Speaker 1: in Stars in the Sky documentary you were part of.

1789
01:37:09,200 --> 01:37:11,599
Speaker 1: Is is there a time we moved past this hunting

1790
01:37:11,720 --> 01:37:16,240
Speaker 1: thing or or is it so barbaric? I would argue

1791
01:37:16,280 --> 01:37:20,160
Speaker 1: this like it's not, in my opinion, like there's barbaric

1792
01:37:20,280 --> 01:37:22,960
Speaker 1: parts of it, but it's intent is not barbaria um

1793
01:37:23,400 --> 01:37:24,840
Speaker 1: and it has a lot of it does a lot

1794
01:37:24,920 --> 01:37:28,040
Speaker 1: of good for for wild life. So I think that's

1795
01:37:28,640 --> 01:37:30,360
Speaker 1: that's probably where we should get to next. Like when

1796
01:37:30,400 --> 01:37:32,880
Speaker 1: you think of hunting, you know, well, we could probably

1797
01:37:32,920 --> 01:37:35,280
Speaker 1: get together and whack factory farms over the head all that.

1798
01:37:36,160 --> 01:37:40,800
Speaker 1: In fact fruit In fact, I said yesterday that I

1799
01:37:40,880 --> 01:37:43,760
Speaker 1: just I've always founded hilarious if he would go to

1800
01:37:43,800 --> 01:37:47,360
Speaker 1: like a Chick fil A and inside the bag is

1801
01:37:47,400 --> 01:37:50,679
Speaker 1: a dead chicken. Part this there's some thing you pulled

1802
01:37:50,720 --> 01:37:56,760
Speaker 1: off a chicken on the bag? Is it cartoon chicken? Like?

1803
01:37:57,040 --> 01:38:00,600
Speaker 1: What like if we yeah, like a chicken, it's like, Hi,

1804
01:38:00,800 --> 01:38:03,519
Speaker 1: what's up? And they have like these cartoon cows that

1805
01:38:03,560 --> 01:38:06,880
Speaker 1: are saying eat more chicken? Like, are we so divorced

1806
01:38:07,080 --> 01:38:09,960
Speaker 1: from the idea of what that thing is that we

1807
01:38:10,040 --> 01:38:15,760
Speaker 1: would one likes make it into a cartoon? I get

1808
01:38:15,880 --> 01:38:17,880
Speaker 1: I get that. Why would we put it on the

1809
01:38:17,920 --> 01:38:19,760
Speaker 1: outside of the bag where the dead chicken is. We

1810
01:38:19,920 --> 01:38:23,880
Speaker 1: must not understand or or or or we might un

1811
01:38:24,280 --> 01:38:26,679
Speaker 1: we Again, this can go back to the bad faith

1812
01:38:26,800 --> 01:38:32,000
Speaker 1: is it's it's uncomfortable. And so by employing things like

1813
01:38:32,120 --> 01:38:35,080
Speaker 1: cartoons are having the cows on the billboards saying eat

1814
01:38:35,120 --> 01:38:38,360
Speaker 1: more chicken, we can laugh at it. But I think

1815
01:38:39,000 --> 01:38:43,679
Speaker 1: the laughing um if the lies this this other level

1816
01:38:43,840 --> 01:38:49,840
Speaker 1: of discomfort because in most people know, you don't have

1817
01:38:50,000 --> 01:38:52,080
Speaker 1: a chicken who was you know, running around in a

1818
01:38:52,240 --> 01:38:54,800
Speaker 1: yard like in the old you know, right, So I

1819
01:38:54,920 --> 01:38:57,960
Speaker 1: think I think it diffused. There's something about the making

1820
01:38:58,040 --> 01:39:02,000
Speaker 1: it into humor, you know, trying and attempt what I

1821
01:39:02,040 --> 01:39:04,800
Speaker 1: would call a sick and twisted attempt at humor is

1822
01:39:05,640 --> 01:39:09,040
Speaker 1: is to diffuse the you know the kind of cognitive

1823
01:39:09,040 --> 01:39:12,120
Speaker 1: dissonance or that. But anyway, yeah, so yeah, I think

1824
01:39:12,320 --> 01:39:14,519
Speaker 1: it's you know, we agree on that and yeah, just

1825
01:39:14,640 --> 01:39:17,320
Speaker 1: to put the closure on this is before we move

1826
01:39:17,400 --> 01:39:19,840
Speaker 1: to the next thing, is um. Yes, So when I

1827
01:39:19,880 --> 01:39:24,360
Speaker 1: think about veganism and I see the interconnectedness between the

1828
01:39:24,520 --> 01:39:28,800
Speaker 1: individual animals suffering and dominated, and it's it's violence and

1829
01:39:28,920 --> 01:39:32,879
Speaker 1: and the commodification and then the degradation of the environment

1830
01:39:33,040 --> 01:39:37,360
Speaker 1: with industrial food production and animal agriculture, and then the

1831
01:39:37,560 --> 01:39:40,360
Speaker 1: health aspects and then walking into a store and ripping

1832
01:39:40,400 --> 01:39:42,960
Speaker 1: open a thing and throw on the It's like we

1833
01:39:43,160 --> 01:39:47,960
Speaker 1: are so we have we as human beings are so

1834
01:39:48,240 --> 01:39:53,400
Speaker 1: far away from anything that is would be considered um,

1835
01:39:54,240 --> 01:39:57,280
Speaker 1: I would say, like nonviolent or peaceful. There's there's aspects

1836
01:39:57,360 --> 01:40:00,720
Speaker 1: of all of this consumption that aren't just sucking ship up.

1837
01:40:01,160 --> 01:40:02,800
Speaker 1: And so what I what I want to argue in

1838
01:40:02,880 --> 01:40:07,680
Speaker 1: that paper is as a vegan, every opportunity I can

1839
01:40:08,400 --> 01:40:11,600
Speaker 1: within reason, right, I want to try to decrease my

1840
01:40:11,920 --> 01:40:16,519
Speaker 1: my suffering impact, you can't and realistically, and this is

1841
01:40:16,560 --> 01:40:19,360
Speaker 1: one of the things that some philosophers argue is a problem, right,

1842
01:40:19,479 --> 01:40:22,680
Speaker 1: is like they call it it's too demanding. So if

1843
01:40:22,720 --> 01:40:25,519
Speaker 1: you really want to live like this, How could you

1844
01:40:25,600 --> 01:40:28,479
Speaker 1: even like move out of this little room because I'm

1845
01:40:28,520 --> 01:40:31,160
Speaker 1: gonna walk out there, I'm gonna maybe step on in it.

1846
01:40:31,360 --> 01:40:33,600
Speaker 1: Like anything I do at some point is going to

1847
01:40:33,640 --> 01:40:35,720
Speaker 1: interact with some kind of suffering and cause some kind

1848
01:40:35,760 --> 01:40:38,080
Speaker 1: of suffering. But I don't think. And this is the

1849
01:40:38,160 --> 01:40:42,240
Speaker 1: thing is veganism is not to me as I mentioned,

1850
01:40:42,360 --> 01:40:45,560
Speaker 1: as you know reading the paper, It's not about perfection.

1851
01:40:46,479 --> 01:40:48,840
Speaker 1: There is a notion like people will say like, oh,

1852
01:40:48,920 --> 01:40:51,800
Speaker 1: you're not really vegan because you take antibiotics. But no

1853
01:40:51,920 --> 01:40:54,639
Speaker 1: one says, no one, no one at least who's thoughtful

1854
01:40:54,640 --> 01:41:01,280
Speaker 1: about veganism, says that veganism is is perfectly withdrawing yourself

1855
01:41:01,360 --> 01:41:03,600
Speaker 1: from the cycle of death and suffering. No one's saying that.

1856
01:41:04,360 --> 01:41:08,080
Speaker 1: Veganism to me is saying again, is how can I

1857
01:41:09,000 --> 01:41:14,400
Speaker 1: how can I decrease unnecessary suffering? Right? So so, so

1858
01:41:14,840 --> 01:41:17,519
Speaker 1: I accept that there's going to be suffering and death

1859
01:41:17,680 --> 01:41:21,439
Speaker 1: caused by my choices. I just happen to think that

1860
01:41:22,320 --> 01:41:27,800
Speaker 1: by by not contributing directly two animal suffering, as you say,

1861
01:41:27,880 --> 01:41:31,000
Speaker 1: we can we can beat up um factory farming for days.

1862
01:41:31,680 --> 01:41:35,600
Speaker 1: But but by not contributing to that, I have a

1863
01:41:35,720 --> 01:41:38,280
Speaker 1: lighter footprint now when it comes to what you're mentioning

1864
01:41:38,320 --> 01:41:43,280
Speaker 1: with regard to hunting, and this has always struck me

1865
01:41:43,360 --> 01:41:44,840
Speaker 1: this way, and it's not I don't think it's different

1866
01:41:44,840 --> 01:41:47,120
Speaker 1: with the way that you think of veganism in the

1867
01:41:47,200 --> 01:41:49,240
Speaker 1: way maybe the way I think of hunting, maybe the

1868
01:41:49,240 --> 01:41:51,000
Speaker 1: way I think a hunting is different than other folks.

1869
01:41:51,200 --> 01:41:52,920
Speaker 1: But what with what you just said and what you

1870
01:41:53,040 --> 01:41:56,840
Speaker 1: just kind of described is veganism from you? For me?

1871
01:41:57,000 --> 01:41:58,920
Speaker 1: You could take the word veganism, remove it from all

1872
01:41:58,960 --> 01:42:00,559
Speaker 1: the things you just said, put the hunting in there

1873
01:42:00,600 --> 01:42:03,800
Speaker 1: and be the same damn thing. And and it just

1874
01:42:03,960 --> 01:42:05,560
Speaker 1: the way that I think of hunting I think of

1875
01:42:06,680 --> 01:42:10,200
Speaker 1: And it's almost as if veganism would be if we

1876
01:42:10,360 --> 01:42:13,560
Speaker 1: started back to back agreeing in the way that I

1877
01:42:13,640 --> 01:42:15,680
Speaker 1: think we agree. I don't know if you if you

1878
01:42:16,000 --> 01:42:19,360
Speaker 1: will see if we agree, And like what you said,

1879
01:42:21,160 --> 01:42:24,960
Speaker 1: my my feeling about hunting now in like the modern sense,

1880
01:42:24,960 --> 01:42:27,720
Speaker 1: because I can't go back and be a subsistence hunter.

1881
01:42:28,280 --> 01:42:30,720
Speaker 1: One of my goals in life is trying to understand that, really,

1882
01:42:30,960 --> 01:42:35,040
Speaker 1: really and truly, but I can't. So I think of

1883
01:42:35,120 --> 01:42:37,479
Speaker 1: if we started back to back and we understood the

1884
01:42:37,640 --> 01:42:40,080
Speaker 1: reasons why we would go and do a thing, you know,

1885
01:42:40,200 --> 01:42:44,920
Speaker 1: I'm I'm I feel by killing one elk, I am

1886
01:42:45,280 --> 01:42:49,160
Speaker 1: not only participating in there being more elk, but participating

1887
01:42:49,200 --> 01:42:52,200
Speaker 1: in less cows dying. Right Like if I went and

1888
01:42:52,320 --> 01:42:54,840
Speaker 1: just want to the I just went to the store

1889
01:42:54,880 --> 01:42:56,479
Speaker 1: and bought a steak, I get, you know, a hundred

1890
01:42:56,520 --> 01:42:59,320
Speaker 1: and twenty pounds of meat ish off of al If

1891
01:42:59,360 --> 01:43:00,840
Speaker 1: I kill a moose, it's more than that, you know,

1892
01:43:01,080 --> 01:43:03,640
Speaker 1: So I can I can make that into sausage. I

1893
01:43:03,680 --> 01:43:06,600
Speaker 1: can make So that's all the sausage. I don't have

1894
01:43:06,640 --> 01:43:08,960
Speaker 1: to go to the storm vibe. And I'm also understanding

1895
01:43:09,000 --> 01:43:11,560
Speaker 1: that I take part in this this great system that

1896
01:43:11,680 --> 01:43:15,640
Speaker 1: we've set up. It's it's one of the fallacies. And

1897
01:43:15,680 --> 01:43:19,400
Speaker 1: the hunting logic is it's not it's not voluntary. If

1898
01:43:19,439 --> 01:43:21,680
Speaker 1: you want to hunt, you gotta pay. And it's so

1899
01:43:22,160 --> 01:43:24,960
Speaker 1: it's not altruistic. You're just taking part in the process.

1900
01:43:25,000 --> 01:43:27,000
Speaker 1: But the process leads to something good. So I think

1901
01:43:27,040 --> 01:43:29,679
Speaker 1: of it is if we were standing back to back

1902
01:43:30,360 --> 01:43:32,360
Speaker 1: and both understanding, like we want to do good, we

1903
01:43:32,479 --> 01:43:35,120
Speaker 1: want to decrease suffering, we want to decrease these like

1904
01:43:35,240 --> 01:43:39,519
Speaker 1: exploitative ways of our world. And this disconnection from what

1905
01:43:39,800 --> 01:43:43,920
Speaker 1: we really are on this planet, and maybe disconnecting ourselves

1906
01:43:43,960 --> 01:43:47,200
Speaker 1: from ourselves a little bit around impact that I'm walking

1907
01:43:47,280 --> 01:43:50,639
Speaker 1: backwards and you're walking forwards. It's like I'm walking back

1908
01:43:50,760 --> 01:43:55,320
Speaker 1: towards our humanity for millions of years, and back towards

1909
01:43:55,400 --> 01:43:58,360
Speaker 1: community with nature and being a part of this, being

1910
01:43:58,400 --> 01:44:02,160
Speaker 1: a real and tangible part of the natural world, in

1911
01:44:02,240 --> 01:44:04,760
Speaker 1: the circle of life, in the predator and prey relationship,

1912
01:44:05,600 --> 01:44:08,400
Speaker 1: and just taking part in that as a way to

1913
01:44:08,479 --> 01:44:11,599
Speaker 1: kind of walk back and to also escape the same

1914
01:44:11,640 --> 01:44:13,599
Speaker 1: thing you're trying to escape. I'm just walking back towards

1915
01:44:13,640 --> 01:44:15,880
Speaker 1: what I what we used to be. You're just walking

1916
01:44:15,960 --> 01:44:19,200
Speaker 1: forward to something we never were. And as we get

1917
01:44:19,280 --> 01:44:22,200
Speaker 1: further away from each other, that's where we can't never

1918
01:44:22,360 --> 01:44:23,720
Speaker 1: we forget to turn and look back and be like, hey,

1919
01:44:23,760 --> 01:44:26,400
Speaker 1: remember where we started, Remember where we started in that

1920
01:44:26,520 --> 01:44:29,920
Speaker 1: same spot where we're both like, we don't like exploitation,

1921
01:44:30,000 --> 01:44:32,640
Speaker 1: we don't like commodification, we don't like each ship that

1922
01:44:32,680 --> 01:44:35,400
Speaker 1: came out of some weird plastic thing and throwing the

1923
01:44:35,439 --> 01:44:37,519
Speaker 1: thing away and not understanding what's going in our mouth.

1924
01:44:37,640 --> 01:44:40,519
Speaker 1: And I don't like I don't like knowing that I'm

1925
01:44:40,520 --> 01:44:42,960
Speaker 1: being tricked by the chicken people, Like I don't want

1926
01:44:43,000 --> 01:44:46,560
Speaker 1: the chicken people to trick me. Fuck then, um, And

1927
01:44:46,680 --> 01:44:50,559
Speaker 1: so that's that's I described that to this dude, Um,

1928
01:44:51,439 --> 01:44:54,439
Speaker 1: Simon Roosevelt, who is I think the great grandson of

1929
01:44:54,560 --> 01:44:57,240
Speaker 1: Theodore Roosevelt, just doing a random phone call that out

1930
01:44:57,280 --> 01:44:59,080
Speaker 1: he was on and I said this kind of thing,

1931
01:44:59,160 --> 01:45:02,800
Speaker 1: and he's like, I wrote that down. I was like, ship,

1932
01:45:03,560 --> 01:45:06,600
Speaker 1: this means It's like, that's a smart guy. And so

1933
01:45:06,680 --> 01:45:09,640
Speaker 1: I've held onto that because of that affirmation that that

1934
01:45:09,800 --> 01:45:12,400
Speaker 1: that there's this idea that that's what we're doing, you know.

1935
01:45:12,720 --> 01:45:15,000
Speaker 1: And so that's why I respect the ship out of vegans.

1936
01:45:15,640 --> 01:45:17,639
Speaker 1: Even if that v and be like, you know, quit

1937
01:45:18,160 --> 01:45:20,040
Speaker 1: quit doing what you're doing it like, yeah, I still

1938
01:45:20,120 --> 01:45:24,000
Speaker 1: respect the idea and I won't remove you know, my

1939
01:45:24,120 --> 01:45:26,240
Speaker 1: respect for that idea won't be removed no matter what

1940
01:45:26,560 --> 01:45:29,280
Speaker 1: if you you know, if family Anderson throws blow to

1941
01:45:29,400 --> 01:45:33,280
Speaker 1: me or not, I don't. I still think there's right

1942
01:45:33,360 --> 01:45:34,760
Speaker 1: in both of them and you're just kind of doing

1943
01:45:34,800 --> 01:45:38,040
Speaker 1: different things. Well, Ben, I do think that that metaphor,

1944
01:45:38,200 --> 01:45:40,080
Speaker 1: I have to say, that's pretty brilliant. Like when as

1945
01:45:40,120 --> 01:45:43,160
Speaker 1: you were describing starting together and then walking in these

1946
01:45:43,200 --> 01:45:46,160
Speaker 1: different directions that really I'm in fact, I'm gonna I'm

1947
01:45:46,160 --> 01:45:50,360
Speaker 1: gonna write that down. Uh, but yeah, I think, well,

1948
01:45:50,840 --> 01:45:53,679
Speaker 1: just a quick note Pam Anderson, she just gets naked

1949
01:45:53,720 --> 01:45:57,200
Speaker 1: for animals. Yeah, I can't stop using her. That's she

1950
01:45:57,280 --> 01:45:59,439
Speaker 1: just takes her clothes off. It for animals. But um,

1951
01:45:59,680 --> 01:46:01,639
Speaker 1: let me just say something. I would take my clothes

1952
01:46:01,640 --> 01:46:04,040
Speaker 1: off for animals. I felt that it would help. I

1953
01:46:04,080 --> 01:46:06,960
Speaker 1: think it probably wouldn't help anybody. Well, Ben, Um, I

1954
01:46:07,040 --> 01:46:09,200
Speaker 1: know you can't see this. Ben's actually taking his clothes off.

1955
01:46:09,920 --> 01:46:12,920
Speaker 1: We're in a hotel room. It's for the animals though,

1956
01:46:14,000 --> 01:46:16,360
Speaker 1: That's what I tell people what I'm walking around. Do

1957
01:46:16,479 --> 01:46:18,680
Speaker 1: you see this? It's for the animal I gotta I

1958
01:46:18,720 --> 01:46:20,519
Speaker 1: gotta help the animals out. But yeah, I mean that's

1959
01:46:20,560 --> 01:46:22,160
Speaker 1: something that's been profound of meat in the way of

1960
01:46:22,240 --> 01:46:25,439
Speaker 1: thinking about it. Um, I want to I want to

1961
01:46:25,520 --> 01:46:28,680
Speaker 1: touch on something you said about history being progressive, and

1962
01:46:28,760 --> 01:46:31,400
Speaker 1: I think if I can, if I can just expand

1963
01:46:31,479 --> 01:46:34,439
Speaker 1: on that or clarify. So when you say if I

1964
01:46:34,560 --> 01:46:37,920
Speaker 1: under if I'm understanding you when you say history is progressive,

1965
01:46:39,160 --> 01:46:42,719
Speaker 1: I think what you might mean, right, is that throughout history,

1966
01:46:43,560 --> 01:46:49,040
Speaker 1: the circle of those beings, those entities that we consider

1967
01:46:49,400 --> 01:46:53,240
Speaker 1: have moral value, who we value. That circle has been expanding.

1968
01:46:53,439 --> 01:46:55,800
Speaker 1: So at one time it might be like white people

1969
01:46:55,880 --> 01:46:58,599
Speaker 1: in Europe who are landowners for something, and then it's like, oh,

1970
01:46:59,320 --> 01:47:01,960
Speaker 1: you know women in or oh kids or you know,

1971
01:47:02,479 --> 01:47:05,280
Speaker 1: or people of color or of slave. Oh right. So

1972
01:47:05,280 --> 01:47:09,920
Speaker 1: so that circle of what what we call it in ethics,

1973
01:47:10,160 --> 01:47:13,640
Speaker 1: of the circle of of moral considerability, the things that

1974
01:47:13,720 --> 01:47:16,559
Speaker 1: we can that have to come on our radar. If

1975
01:47:16,600 --> 01:47:19,680
Speaker 1: you talked away, if you talk to a uh say,

1976
01:47:19,680 --> 01:47:23,599
Speaker 1: a plantation owner in Virginia and you know, eighteen twenty,

1977
01:47:24,160 --> 01:47:26,760
Speaker 1: and you say, oh, do you think that those people

1978
01:47:26,840 --> 01:47:29,799
Speaker 1: working out in your field are just as morally important

1979
01:47:29,840 --> 01:47:32,840
Speaker 1: as you and your family? They go, no, they're they're

1980
01:47:32,880 --> 01:47:35,479
Speaker 1: not in that circle. Right. Of course, now we look

1981
01:47:35,520 --> 01:47:38,920
Speaker 1: back and we say, wow, that was just either you know,

1982
01:47:39,080 --> 01:47:41,840
Speaker 1: either they were in bad faith or they actually didn't

1983
01:47:41,920 --> 01:47:44,360
Speaker 1: they didn't think that those were human beings. Right. But

1984
01:47:45,280 --> 01:47:46,760
Speaker 1: so what I want to say is when you're in

1985
01:47:46,880 --> 01:47:49,439
Speaker 1: with this metaphor you're talking about, and I think the

1986
01:47:49,520 --> 01:47:54,040
Speaker 1: animal rights movement in general is to say that circle

1987
01:47:54,960 --> 01:47:59,320
Speaker 1: it needs to be expanded even more because because and

1988
01:47:59,400 --> 01:48:01,439
Speaker 1: this touches on something you and I talked about before

1989
01:48:01,479 --> 01:48:04,639
Speaker 1: the podcast. Is the thing that gets you into the circle.

1990
01:48:05,320 --> 01:48:07,879
Speaker 1: It's not that you're a member of the species Homo sapien.

1991
01:48:08,040 --> 01:48:10,920
Speaker 1: It's that you're a thing that can suffer. And once

1992
01:48:11,040 --> 01:48:13,400
Speaker 1: you open that door, once you go, the things that

1993
01:48:13,479 --> 01:48:17,120
Speaker 1: are in that circle are the things that can suffer that. Now, I've,

1994
01:48:17,560 --> 01:48:21,720
Speaker 1: as you say, history is progressive on this view. I've

1995
01:48:21,800 --> 01:48:27,080
Speaker 1: expanded the moral the circle of moral consideration vastly. Now

1996
01:48:27,160 --> 01:48:29,640
Speaker 1: I have to go, does that bear suffer? Does that

1997
01:48:29,720 --> 01:48:33,720
Speaker 1: elk suffer? Now? It's in the club. Now. It's not

1998
01:48:33,960 --> 01:48:36,840
Speaker 1: to say that once you're in the club everyone is equal,

1999
01:48:36,880 --> 01:48:39,000
Speaker 1: because a lot of people will criticize, you know, like

2000
01:48:39,160 --> 01:48:42,439
Speaker 1: Peter and and and Ingrid new Kirk, who's the president

2001
01:48:42,439 --> 01:48:44,479
Speaker 1: of Peter will say, like a boy is a pig

2002
01:48:44,560 --> 01:48:47,040
Speaker 1: as a mouse? Oh, animal rights activists think that you

2003
01:48:47,080 --> 01:48:52,599
Speaker 1: know a mouse is the same, but don't put in jail. Yeah,

2004
01:48:52,640 --> 01:48:54,559
Speaker 1: but and and that's but that that's not I think

2005
01:48:54,640 --> 01:48:57,439
Speaker 1: the view is to say this is and actually I

2006
01:48:57,560 --> 01:48:59,439
Speaker 1: bet you. I think I think you're going to agree

2007
01:48:59,439 --> 01:49:02,680
Speaker 1: with this. And here's what I'm just guessing. So so

2008
01:49:03,360 --> 01:49:09,200
Speaker 1: sentient beings like non human animals, maybe you won't. But

2009
01:49:09,840 --> 01:49:12,120
Speaker 1: they're in the club of things that I have to consider.

2010
01:49:12,160 --> 01:49:14,800
Speaker 1: In other words, if I if I'm walking down the

2011
01:49:15,280 --> 01:49:18,320
Speaker 1: path and I kick a rock, You're not going to

2012
01:49:18,439 --> 01:49:20,800
Speaker 1: think anything of it. If I kick a little vole

2013
01:49:21,080 --> 01:49:23,000
Speaker 1: or like a little mouse, you might go, dude, what,

2014
01:49:23,400 --> 01:49:25,720
Speaker 1: what's what? And I can't just go, oh, it's just

2015
01:49:25,880 --> 01:49:28,120
Speaker 1: a mouse. You would go, you know, you have a

2016
01:49:28,280 --> 01:49:31,280
Speaker 1: if your son pulls the dog's tail, You're you're not

2017
01:49:31,320 --> 01:49:34,120
Speaker 1: gonna go that's okay, You're gonna go, hey, don't hurt. Right,

2018
01:49:34,600 --> 01:49:36,880
Speaker 1: So we agree that I think we agree that that

2019
01:49:37,080 --> 01:49:40,519
Speaker 1: circle actually is is pretty big. Now the question is this,

2020
01:49:41,840 --> 01:49:45,200
Speaker 1: Once we agree who's in the circle, then the question

2021
01:49:45,320 --> 01:49:49,160
Speaker 1: is who's more important in the circle, Like what's the hierarchy? Dude?

2022
01:49:49,160 --> 01:49:51,120
Speaker 1: I totally and as I listened to you, and I was,

2023
01:49:51,720 --> 01:49:53,320
Speaker 1: like I said, I was. I was talking to the guy,

2024
01:49:53,560 --> 01:49:57,200
Speaker 1: the animal rights guy, Matt Johnson yesterday, and I was

2025
01:49:57,280 --> 01:49:59,680
Speaker 1: confused by that point, Like I just couldn't get it

2026
01:50:00,439 --> 01:50:04,920
Speaker 1: accepting having the circle, accepting animals into where we are.

2027
01:50:05,640 --> 01:50:08,400
Speaker 1: It's confusing to me because I end up like I'm

2028
01:50:08,479 --> 01:50:10,400
Speaker 1: killing animals. I'm not gonna stop doing that if they're

2029
01:50:10,439 --> 01:50:12,519
Speaker 1: in the same circle as me, What the funk? And

2030
01:50:12,600 --> 01:50:15,360
Speaker 1: then there's all these issues of they're in the same

2031
01:50:15,400 --> 01:50:18,880
Speaker 1: circle as me. There's a lot we can get I mean,

2032
01:50:18,880 --> 01:50:20,719
Speaker 1: I can go for for days and days and poking

2033
01:50:20,760 --> 01:50:23,800
Speaker 1: holes and that idea, but we can get there if

2034
01:50:23,840 --> 01:50:26,200
Speaker 1: we need to. But what I would agree with in

2035
01:50:26,320 --> 01:50:30,599
Speaker 1: that idea is that, yeah, absolutely any animal was suffering

2036
01:50:30,840 --> 01:50:37,600
Speaker 1: belongs like being in the circle. But hunting is to

2037
01:50:37,720 --> 01:50:39,840
Speaker 1: me a good way to kind of live in this

2038
01:50:39,960 --> 01:50:43,640
Speaker 1: circle because I'm I'm taking one or taking few to

2039
01:50:43,760 --> 01:50:46,720
Speaker 1: help the many. And I think if I could talk

2040
01:50:46,800 --> 01:50:48,200
Speaker 1: with the l can be like we're on this circle,

2041
01:50:48,200 --> 01:50:52,040
Speaker 1: I'm gonna kill something of like I might just tell

2042
01:50:52,120 --> 01:50:54,559
Speaker 1: myself I'm not if I do certain things. But there's

2043
01:50:54,640 --> 01:50:57,680
Speaker 1: no way I can't see I can't say getting around that.

2044
01:50:58,000 --> 01:51:00,040
Speaker 1: Maybe any consumption engine I can't see getting aroun on

2045
01:51:00,160 --> 01:51:03,200
Speaker 1: me being the understanding life eats life and I can't

2046
01:51:03,280 --> 01:51:06,560
Speaker 1: understand I can't see myself getting around that. So what

2047
01:51:06,680 --> 01:51:08,680
Speaker 1: am I going to do? All right? And I think

2048
01:51:09,720 --> 01:51:11,439
Speaker 1: we probably can agree to get to that point. Then

2049
01:51:11,479 --> 01:51:13,320
Speaker 1: what are we gonna do? You have a different answer

2050
01:51:13,360 --> 01:51:14,920
Speaker 1: than I have. It's like, what are you gonna do?

2051
01:51:15,720 --> 01:51:17,720
Speaker 1: Not the animals. What I'm gonna do, I'm gonna kill

2052
01:51:18,800 --> 01:51:22,519
Speaker 1: wild animals and eat those to mitigate other animals that

2053
01:51:22,600 --> 01:51:25,640
Speaker 1: I have no vision over, no like vision of what

2054
01:51:25,760 --> 01:51:28,360
Speaker 1: they are. And I wrote this down to bring this

2055
01:51:28,479 --> 01:51:31,080
Speaker 1: up to you. I was like to me, it's this,

2056
01:51:31,360 --> 01:51:34,679
Speaker 1: it's this like vision issue. It's an issue of seeing

2057
01:51:35,680 --> 01:51:38,320
Speaker 1: within the circle. I can see my impact. I'm better

2058
01:51:38,439 --> 01:51:42,120
Speaker 1: at being in the damn circle. If I can't see

2059
01:51:42,160 --> 01:51:46,320
Speaker 1: my impact, if I'm choosing to take some walk walk

2060
01:51:46,360 --> 01:51:50,080
Speaker 1: away from my impact purposefully and then not look back

2061
01:51:50,160 --> 01:51:53,320
Speaker 1: at it, then I probably I'm probably not as good

2062
01:51:53,360 --> 01:51:55,360
Speaker 1: in the circle as other people. You know. So my

2063
01:51:55,640 --> 01:51:58,280
Speaker 1: vision the vision of cutting asshole out of an analym,

2064
01:51:58,439 --> 01:52:02,360
Speaker 1: the vision of pulling its cuts out. And so maybe

2065
01:52:02,400 --> 01:52:05,639
Speaker 1: for animal rights folks that helps them understand that I'm

2066
01:52:05,720 --> 01:52:07,840
Speaker 1: fighting for the same circle you're fighting for. It's just

2067
01:52:08,600 --> 01:52:10,639
Speaker 1: I'm not going to be so foolish as to think

2068
01:52:10,680 --> 01:52:14,639
Speaker 1: that I'm gonna live ever in a world well there's

2069
01:52:14,680 --> 01:52:18,280
Speaker 1: no impact, no human impact. Yeah, that said, you have

2070
01:52:18,400 --> 01:52:22,400
Speaker 1: to acknowledge that. Everyone has to acknowledge it. Um, And

2071
01:52:22,600 --> 01:52:23,920
Speaker 1: I just want to go back to something you said

2072
01:52:23,920 --> 01:52:27,840
Speaker 1: about it's true that life, life needs life. You know,

2073
01:52:27,880 --> 01:52:33,000
Speaker 1: life kills life to survive. And but most vegans, myself

2074
01:52:33,640 --> 01:52:38,880
Speaker 1: being in this areas, is that it's it's not the

2075
01:52:38,960 --> 01:52:43,599
Speaker 1: issue of of destroying life as much because plants are alive,

2076
01:52:43,840 --> 01:52:46,960
Speaker 1: but your plants aren't sentient. So let me let me

2077
01:52:47,360 --> 01:52:49,320
Speaker 1: let me ask you a question, just just just sort

2078
01:52:49,320 --> 01:52:52,080
Speaker 1: of theoretical thought experiment, is like you're in the circle,

2079
01:52:52,840 --> 01:52:57,280
Speaker 1: and all things being equal, you have to survive, and

2080
01:52:57,400 --> 01:53:00,439
Speaker 1: you could eat a plant or you can kill an elk.

2081
01:53:00,720 --> 01:53:04,320
Speaker 1: And and just in my thought experiment, do you have

2082
01:53:04,560 --> 01:53:07,240
Speaker 1: like a full nutrition. It's not like you need to

2083
01:53:07,280 --> 01:53:09,519
Speaker 1: sup it's like you can, you can survive, you can

2084
01:53:09,800 --> 01:53:12,280
Speaker 1: you can flourish. And so you're in the circule when

2085
01:53:12,280 --> 01:53:13,800
Speaker 1: you're like, I can do this thing or I can

2086
01:53:13,840 --> 01:53:17,840
Speaker 1: do that thing, separating out all the consequences. We were

2087
01:53:17,880 --> 01:53:22,560
Speaker 1: talking about factory farming. So I think that's that's a

2088
01:53:22,640 --> 01:53:25,759
Speaker 1: question I would have for you, is would you still choose,

2089
01:53:27,479 --> 01:53:31,920
Speaker 1: say that, to kill the elk over eating the plant

2090
01:53:32,040 --> 01:53:35,360
Speaker 1: or killing the plant for sustenance, and and if so,

2091
01:53:35,760 --> 01:53:39,479
Speaker 1: why and if not why not? Yeah, that's a good question.

2092
01:53:39,800 --> 01:53:43,320
Speaker 1: And I think most I think you never asked yourself

2093
01:53:43,360 --> 01:53:47,040
Speaker 1: that because it's it's there's never gonna be that time

2094
01:53:47,080 --> 01:53:50,560
Speaker 1: where I know that, But it's a thought experiment. In

2095
01:53:50,600 --> 01:53:53,080
Speaker 1: a thought experiment, I would say, yeah, man, i'd probably

2096
01:53:53,080 --> 01:53:56,839
Speaker 1: eat the plants. Yeah so so, And I think hopefully

2097
01:53:56,920 --> 01:53:59,320
Speaker 1: most people would think, like I said, like the substitute

2098
01:53:59,400 --> 01:54:04,360
Speaker 1: chicken seem that bad to me um and its principle

2099
01:54:04,439 --> 01:54:06,680
Speaker 1: and the way that it's presented seeing that bad to me.

2100
01:54:06,760 --> 01:54:09,120
Speaker 1: It's like this tastes like something cool, and it could

2101
01:54:09,160 --> 01:54:12,080
Speaker 1: be plants instead of a thing that has babies, and

2102
01:54:12,479 --> 01:54:16,840
Speaker 1: yeah great, yeah sure. But I think where people I

2103
01:54:16,920 --> 01:54:19,639
Speaker 1: disagree with vegans and and and people that are vegan

2104
01:54:19,840 --> 01:54:22,320
Speaker 1: get get off the train is the thought experiment thing.

2105
01:54:22,439 --> 01:54:25,960
Speaker 1: Like in in thought and theory, it's like what I

2106
01:54:26,040 --> 01:54:27,920
Speaker 1: like about you is you're not so connected to the

2107
01:54:28,000 --> 01:54:31,639
Speaker 1: thoughts and theories, like there's there's reality sitting right there

2108
01:54:31,640 --> 01:54:33,840
Speaker 1: alongside of them. It's important to have those thoughts and

2109
01:54:33,920 --> 01:54:36,280
Speaker 1: theories and then work through them, but it's also important

2110
01:54:36,280 --> 01:54:38,880
Speaker 1: to understand the reality of the world in which we live.

2111
01:54:39,360 --> 01:54:40,640
Speaker 1: I could change the world in which we live. I

2112
01:54:40,680 --> 01:54:42,000
Speaker 1: do a lot of ship. I'd probably be able to fly,

2113
01:54:44,200 --> 01:54:47,520
Speaker 1: I would have definitely have wings. I would also I

2114
01:54:47,560 --> 01:54:49,760
Speaker 1: don't know what else I would have, but would definitely

2115
01:54:49,800 --> 01:54:52,960
Speaker 1: have wings. But you know, if I could change those

2116
01:54:53,000 --> 01:54:55,000
Speaker 1: things and have those like what what would it be?

2117
01:54:55,640 --> 01:54:59,040
Speaker 1: I just can't And so I have to just examine,

2118
01:55:00,200 --> 01:55:01,680
Speaker 1: you know, what I can do, you know, And if

2119
01:55:02,080 --> 01:55:03,800
Speaker 1: I don't feel like I have to kill the elk,

2120
01:55:04,400 --> 01:55:06,560
Speaker 1: I don't, And then that would be disingenuous for me

2121
01:55:06,640 --> 01:55:08,440
Speaker 1: to say, like what if I don't kill the elk,

2122
01:55:08,520 --> 01:55:12,640
Speaker 1: then I can't be me? Boy, that'd be a tough

2123
01:55:12,720 --> 01:55:16,000
Speaker 1: line to walk. But I do think I've come to

2124
01:55:16,120 --> 01:55:19,040
Speaker 1: this and I feel comfortable in it because I've thought,

2125
01:55:19,760 --> 01:55:21,760
Speaker 1: and like I said, I challenged myself for a long time,

2126
01:55:21,880 --> 01:55:25,400
Speaker 1: is this right? Am I just doing this thing because

2127
01:55:25,520 --> 01:55:31,160
Speaker 1: other people I know do it? Um? And it's that's

2128
01:55:31,160 --> 01:55:32,640
Speaker 1: pregned out. I was going to bring up a comparison

2129
01:55:32,640 --> 01:55:34,760
Speaker 1: that would be confusing, but I think like that at

2130
01:55:34,800 --> 01:55:37,360
Speaker 1: the moment where you decided to walk away from it,

2131
01:55:37,960 --> 01:55:40,680
Speaker 1: I decided to dive back into it pretty hard, you know,

2132
01:55:41,720 --> 01:55:43,680
Speaker 1: I I just don't. The other thing I want to

2133
01:55:43,720 --> 01:55:47,600
Speaker 1: do is just explain, or at least try to talking

2134
01:55:47,640 --> 01:55:50,560
Speaker 1: about the thought experiment as being like theoretical, which it is.

2135
01:55:50,760 --> 01:55:53,800
Speaker 1: But I think the reason I brought the thought experiment up,

2136
01:55:53,960 --> 01:55:59,560
Speaker 1: and why the thought experiment is important because what it demonstrates.

2137
01:56:00,640 --> 01:56:03,120
Speaker 1: What I can infer from your answer to that thought

2138
01:56:03,200 --> 01:56:09,200
Speaker 1: experiment is that given the choice you actually given, given

2139
01:56:09,240 --> 01:56:12,360
Speaker 1: this like moral and ethical or moral choice, you think

2140
01:56:12,520 --> 01:56:14,080
Speaker 1: and correct me. And I don't want to put words

2141
01:56:14,080 --> 01:56:15,480
Speaker 1: in your mouth, but from what you said in that

2142
01:56:15,680 --> 01:56:20,280
Speaker 1: thought experiment, it seems like, do you think if you

2143
01:56:20,400 --> 01:56:24,040
Speaker 1: had to choose all things being equal, eating or killing

2144
01:56:24,160 --> 01:56:31,040
Speaker 1: the plant is less causes less suffering or is less heart? Right? Oh? Absolutely?

2145
01:56:31,120 --> 01:56:34,960
Speaker 1: And yeah absolutely, And I think most hunters, I think

2146
01:56:35,000 --> 01:56:37,440
Speaker 1: that's something that most hunters struggle with and would probably

2147
01:56:37,440 --> 01:56:40,200
Speaker 1: cringe to hear me say like what, yeah, oh my gosh.

2148
01:56:40,240 --> 01:56:43,760
Speaker 1: And also the thing about history being progressive, most hunters like,

2149
01:56:43,920 --> 01:56:47,040
Speaker 1: what's he's saying? Isn't he isn't isn't that kind of

2150
01:56:47,080 --> 01:56:50,520
Speaker 1: the argument this other guys making. But I think what

2151
01:56:50,680 --> 01:56:53,200
Speaker 1: I think it buttresses how I feel about this thing.

2152
01:56:53,280 --> 01:56:55,960
Speaker 1: Like I've if I felt killing elk was like somehow

2153
01:56:56,080 --> 01:56:59,960
Speaker 1: necessary or better than eating a plant, then I would

2154
01:57:00,040 --> 01:57:03,920
Speaker 1: have to admit to somehow like lusting for or holding

2155
01:57:04,000 --> 01:57:06,680
Speaker 1: up on a pedestal the killing of of an elk

2156
01:57:06,880 --> 01:57:08,960
Speaker 1: I don't and I don't do that. I don't want

2157
01:57:08,960 --> 01:57:11,400
Speaker 1: to do that. It's not hunting. It for me is

2158
01:57:12,160 --> 01:57:17,200
Speaker 1: many parts, you know, but it's not all parts, the killing, right,

2159
01:57:17,680 --> 01:57:19,760
Speaker 1: And so I think it would be disingenuous for me

2160
01:57:19,840 --> 01:57:23,440
Speaker 1: to say to say I would I would rather take

2161
01:57:23,480 --> 01:57:25,200
Speaker 1: an arrow and jam it through the heart of an

2162
01:57:25,240 --> 01:57:28,440
Speaker 1: elk then walk over here and picking your corn off

2163
01:57:28,520 --> 01:57:31,840
Speaker 1: of things, Like the two acts aren't equal, right. I

2164
01:57:31,880 --> 01:57:34,600
Speaker 1: think that's important, man, that's really important, because you and I,

2165
01:57:35,280 --> 01:57:38,800
Speaker 1: I mean, we're on the same page. And and if

2166
01:57:39,400 --> 01:57:43,240
Speaker 1: if someone said to me you had to kill an

2167
01:57:43,280 --> 01:57:44,880
Speaker 1: elk or you had to you know, there was like

2168
01:57:45,480 --> 01:57:47,840
Speaker 1: these children like, to me, it's a no brainer, like

2169
01:57:48,040 --> 01:57:50,120
Speaker 1: I have to kill the elk to sit right. So

2170
01:57:51,200 --> 01:57:57,760
Speaker 1: so I think we agree that that what if if

2171
01:57:57,840 --> 01:58:00,200
Speaker 1: I don't have to cause suffering, if it's mere really

2172
01:58:00,240 --> 01:58:04,200
Speaker 1: because of my appetite or whatever, just because I like bacon,

2173
01:58:04,400 --> 01:58:07,920
Speaker 1: or because I like to drive you know, diesel trucks

2174
01:58:08,160 --> 01:58:11,560
Speaker 1: just around. You know, we both agree that if it's

2175
01:58:11,560 --> 01:58:14,840
Speaker 1: not necessary like that, it seems like that that choice

2176
01:58:15,120 --> 01:58:17,320
Speaker 1: that's not that wouldn't be the right choice. So what

2177
01:58:17,480 --> 01:58:22,480
Speaker 1: I think is is really interesting here is that now

2178
01:58:22,640 --> 01:58:24,760
Speaker 1: you and I are looking at the world. We have

2179
01:58:25,000 --> 01:58:28,080
Speaker 1: similar at least and this and this venue we have

2180
01:58:28,240 --> 01:58:32,320
Speaker 1: kind of overlapping values. And now we're like, so what now? Now,

2181
01:58:32,560 --> 01:58:33,680
Speaker 1: now I have to look at the real world, and

2182
01:58:33,720 --> 01:58:36,720
Speaker 1: you're like, so, what is the way to decrease suffering?

2183
01:58:36,880 --> 01:58:40,400
Speaker 1: And as you said, my my view is, I'm like, well,

2184
01:58:40,400 --> 01:58:43,040
Speaker 1: I just want to remove myself from the killing of animals,

2185
01:58:43,160 --> 01:58:45,760
Speaker 1: and you think your view is no. By by actually

2186
01:58:45,800 --> 01:58:50,960
Speaker 1: adopting this, I'm actually decreasing suffering. And so I think

2187
01:58:51,000 --> 01:58:55,800
Speaker 1: that's where our disagreement is. And that seems like that's

2188
01:58:55,880 --> 01:58:58,520
Speaker 1: less of a philosophical that's more of like an empirical

2189
01:58:58,600 --> 01:59:00,720
Speaker 1: like is it the case that it seems like more

2190
01:59:00,800 --> 01:59:04,280
Speaker 1: tactile than anything? What's your tactic here? What are you

2191
01:59:04,360 --> 01:59:08,280
Speaker 1: going for? And I think mine and mine, like I said,

2192
01:59:08,320 --> 01:59:09,920
Speaker 1: if you were, you know, I think that's important for

2193
01:59:10,040 --> 01:59:12,400
Speaker 1: me to realize them, for you, and for folks listening,

2194
01:59:12,600 --> 01:59:16,240
Speaker 1: especially hunters, to realize. Boy, it would be weird to say.

2195
01:59:16,360 --> 01:59:18,600
Speaker 1: And listen, I'm sure people will right in after this

2196
01:59:18,720 --> 01:59:20,400
Speaker 1: and tell me why. Maybe it's not weird to say,

2197
01:59:20,480 --> 01:59:23,080
Speaker 1: but to me, it's weird to say that you would

2198
01:59:23,160 --> 01:59:26,240
Speaker 1: pick killing the elk. If if we're if if all

2199
01:59:26,360 --> 01:59:29,520
Speaker 1: things being equaled, you're standing in you're standing in a

2200
01:59:30,560 --> 01:59:33,280
Speaker 1: a baseless environment, and there's an elk over there, you're

2201
01:59:33,320 --> 01:59:36,280
Speaker 1: super hungry. There's an elk over there, and there's a

2202
01:59:36,520 --> 01:59:40,160
Speaker 1: stalk of corn. I just it would be super disingenuous

2203
01:59:40,200 --> 01:59:43,520
Speaker 1: for any hunter, just say they would go and take

2204
01:59:43,600 --> 01:59:46,880
Speaker 1: the life of that elk over picking the corn. I

2205
01:59:46,960 --> 01:59:50,200
Speaker 1: just think it would be disingenuous. But but yeah, then

2206
01:59:50,240 --> 01:59:52,720
Speaker 1: we get to the point where now we leap back

2207
01:59:52,760 --> 01:59:56,720
Speaker 1: into the real world. We're like, okay, now we're we're here.

2208
01:59:56,920 --> 01:59:59,240
Speaker 1: We can't we can't live in that world. We don't

2209
01:59:59,280 --> 02:00:00,680
Speaker 1: live in that world. And I think a lot of

2210
02:00:01,400 --> 02:00:03,400
Speaker 1: folks that look at vegans think that that's the world

2211
02:00:03,440 --> 02:00:05,080
Speaker 1: in which they live. They think they can live in

2212
02:00:05,120 --> 02:00:08,480
Speaker 1: a world, or you know, some version of the vegan

2213
02:00:08,560 --> 02:00:10,320
Speaker 1: person thinks they can live in a world where there

2214
02:00:10,440 --> 02:00:13,320
Speaker 1: is that choice. My I would say that there isn't.

2215
02:00:13,760 --> 02:00:15,680
Speaker 1: I have not run into a time where I could

2216
02:00:16,480 --> 02:00:19,480
Speaker 1: can make that choice. So now my choices are this

2217
02:00:19,600 --> 02:00:23,960
Speaker 1: complicated menu of have some of this, but over here

2218
02:00:24,040 --> 02:00:26,880
Speaker 1: this is gonna happen, right, have some of this, and

2219
02:00:26,960 --> 02:00:28,920
Speaker 1: over here this is gonna happen to have some corn,

2220
02:00:29,000 --> 02:00:32,440
Speaker 1: and over here, you know, corn prices are gonna go up,

2221
02:00:32,520 --> 02:00:35,800
Speaker 1: and wherever that corn came from, and some some migrant

2222
02:00:35,840 --> 02:00:39,520
Speaker 1: worker is gonna become poor because they can't afford corn now,

2223
02:00:39,600 --> 02:00:43,360
Speaker 1: and then they're gonna deal drug whatever or and now

2224
02:00:43,400 --> 02:00:45,160
Speaker 1: I'm never gonna see that. And that's why I say that.

2225
02:00:45,240 --> 02:00:49,160
Speaker 1: To me, it's like this vision experience. In embracing that experience,

2226
02:00:49,560 --> 02:00:52,160
Speaker 1: I've learned so much about myself, about what I can

2227
02:00:52,240 --> 02:00:56,160
Speaker 1: do as a person, about what an animal really can be,

2228
02:00:56,400 --> 02:00:58,800
Speaker 1: and how it can really value your life, what it

2229
02:00:58,840 --> 02:01:01,000
Speaker 1: can give you that you may not know if you

2230
02:01:01,160 --> 02:01:04,200
Speaker 1: never went through that. It's a freaking hell of a

2231
02:01:04,280 --> 02:01:06,640
Speaker 1: hurdle to ask anyone just to like, you know what,

2232
02:01:06,800 --> 02:01:09,320
Speaker 1: you can find all these wonderful things, but you gotta

2233
02:01:10,040 --> 02:01:12,360
Speaker 1: kill that thing. You gotta go over and walk over there,

2234
02:01:12,800 --> 02:01:14,720
Speaker 1: kill it. But here's what you're gonna get when you

2235
02:01:14,800 --> 02:01:18,120
Speaker 1: do that. Boy, I understand that's tough, and I would

2236
02:01:18,200 --> 02:01:20,920
Speaker 1: never ask. I don't ask people to do it unless

2237
02:01:20,960 --> 02:01:23,560
Speaker 1: they want to. I wouldn't be like, son, you're three

2238
02:01:23,640 --> 02:01:26,480
Speaker 1: years old, you better really love to kill stuff, or

2239
02:01:26,560 --> 02:01:29,720
Speaker 1: your life won't be as enriched as mine is no like.

2240
02:01:29,920 --> 02:01:34,760
Speaker 1: But if you want to take that monumental step to

2241
02:01:34,880 --> 02:01:37,040
Speaker 1: go and pluck the life of an animal, of something

2242
02:01:37,080 --> 02:01:38,920
Speaker 1: you didn't plant there, and you're taking it out of

2243
02:01:38,960 --> 02:01:41,320
Speaker 1: the natural world, you didn't put it there. If you

2244
02:01:41,400 --> 02:01:42,720
Speaker 1: want to do that, I can show you how to

2245
02:01:42,760 --> 02:01:44,680
Speaker 1: do it in a way that will enrich your life

2246
02:01:45,120 --> 02:01:48,440
Speaker 1: and and will be this version of consumption that helps

2247
02:01:48,480 --> 02:01:51,200
Speaker 1: you be a better part of the circle. And maybe

2248
02:01:51,200 --> 02:01:52,720
Speaker 1: it will be a small tribe of us in the

2249
02:01:52,800 --> 02:01:54,760
Speaker 1: future that does it. But if it's a tribe of

2250
02:01:54,760 --> 02:01:57,480
Speaker 1: people that understand it, it's impacts in a way that

2251
02:01:57,560 --> 02:02:03,000
Speaker 1: it can function for good. I think it can stick around.

2252
02:02:03,080 --> 02:02:05,760
Speaker 1: But again, you know, I mean there's I don't know

2253
02:02:05,960 --> 02:02:08,120
Speaker 1: if veganism is growing. I don't know the numbers. I'm

2254
02:02:08,160 --> 02:02:10,600
Speaker 1: assuming it is in the world wide scale. It's about

2255
02:02:10,880 --> 02:02:15,120
Speaker 1: worldwide's about but it's probably growing, right, I mean, it's

2256
02:02:15,200 --> 02:02:17,600
Speaker 1: it's supposedly growing. But you know, you don't know. But

2257
02:02:17,760 --> 02:02:20,640
Speaker 1: we know that hunting is like not. I think hunting

2258
02:02:20,760 --> 02:02:23,320
Speaker 1: is actually diminished the numbers of hunters, so we we

2259
02:02:23,480 --> 02:02:26,360
Speaker 1: know by every measure, there's not a standard of measure,

2260
02:02:26,400 --> 02:02:28,000
Speaker 1: which I wish there was. What there isn't. But we

2261
02:02:28,120 --> 02:02:32,000
Speaker 1: know by almost all the measures that we can can

2262
02:02:32,800 --> 02:02:35,120
Speaker 1: can have here in our country at least that it's

2263
02:02:35,200 --> 02:02:39,600
Speaker 1: it's diminishing and why. I mean, there's lots of reasons.

2264
02:02:39,680 --> 02:02:42,480
Speaker 1: But for me, if we could, if we could just

2265
02:02:43,000 --> 02:02:47,000
Speaker 1: hang onto that thing that is so enriching to my life,

2266
02:02:47,040 --> 02:02:49,320
Speaker 1: then we could make it work for the future. Do

2267
02:02:49,360 --> 02:02:52,080
Speaker 1: you Here's I'm curious about two because you're I mean, Ben,

2268
02:02:52,160 --> 02:02:54,640
Speaker 1: You're so thoughtful, and it's it's I'm just very impressed

2269
02:02:54,680 --> 02:02:58,960
Speaker 1: with you're the depth of your thought process about this.

2270
02:02:59,720 --> 02:03:02,920
Speaker 1: So as a non hunter, someone on the outside, I'm

2271
02:03:02,920 --> 02:03:09,560
Speaker 1: wondering about the issue of and again I'm sort of isolating.

2272
02:03:09,680 --> 02:03:11,800
Speaker 1: I know that I mean the way and you can

2273
02:03:11,880 --> 02:03:13,800
Speaker 1: correct me if I'm wrong, but they're they're the way

2274
02:03:13,840 --> 02:03:15,680
Speaker 1: I think about hunting, the way that this is not

2275
02:03:15,760 --> 02:03:18,480
Speaker 1: original to me. Gary Varner, who's an animal rights philosopher.

2276
02:03:18,960 --> 02:03:20,600
Speaker 1: I've tried to get Gary on the podcast and he

2277
02:03:21,200 --> 02:03:24,200
Speaker 1: he said he's retired. Okay, he's he's a smart dude.

2278
02:03:24,400 --> 02:03:25,600
Speaker 1: I mean, not because he didn't want to do the

2279
02:03:25,800 --> 02:03:30,120
Speaker 1: because he's retiring. Um, but you know, he talks about

2280
02:03:30,160 --> 02:03:34,200
Speaker 1: you know, what he calls therapeutic hunting, subsistence hunting, and

2281
02:03:34,280 --> 02:03:38,000
Speaker 1: sport hunting. There's three categories, right, and they overlap. Therapeutic

2282
02:03:38,080 --> 02:03:40,160
Speaker 1: hunting is, like we were thinning, we have to do

2283
02:03:40,640 --> 02:03:44,440
Speaker 1: this kind of conservation, we're hunting for that purpose. Subsistence hunting,

2284
02:03:44,480 --> 02:03:46,640
Speaker 1: of course would be like Inuit are doing, and then

2285
02:03:46,640 --> 02:03:49,440
Speaker 1: there's sport hunting, so and they of course overlap. But

2286
02:03:49,560 --> 02:03:53,440
Speaker 1: what I'm what I'm the the way that I'm thinking

2287
02:03:53,440 --> 02:03:56,480
Speaker 1: about this in this kind of nice neat categories is

2288
02:03:57,440 --> 02:04:01,160
Speaker 1: it seems like the easiest target, no pun intended for

2289
02:04:01,320 --> 02:04:04,400
Speaker 1: the vegan, is the sport hunter, right. So so and

2290
02:04:04,480 --> 02:04:06,400
Speaker 1: I'm not saying that there are people who just go out,

2291
02:04:06,440 --> 02:04:08,880
Speaker 1: I'm just gonna shoot and and and and kill the

2292
02:04:08,960 --> 02:04:13,640
Speaker 1: animal for this pure pleasure. But I would say right

2293
02:04:13,680 --> 02:04:16,400
Speaker 1: in that case, because what the way you're talking about

2294
02:04:16,520 --> 02:04:22,040
Speaker 1: hunting here, Ben, It's I don't know if your view

2295
02:04:22,200 --> 02:04:26,320
Speaker 1: is the majority view among hunters. It may or may

2296
02:04:26,360 --> 02:04:28,720
Speaker 1: not be. I mean, it's it seems to me from

2297
02:04:28,760 --> 02:04:32,840
Speaker 1: the outside like you're a particularly thoughtful hunter. But the

2298
02:04:33,000 --> 02:04:36,760
Speaker 1: fact that I live in a culture where it's perfectly legal,

2299
02:04:37,440 --> 02:04:39,680
Speaker 1: whether or not it's moral, that's a separate question, because

2300
02:04:39,840 --> 02:04:42,400
Speaker 1: legal and moral two separate issues. But I live in

2301
02:04:42,440 --> 02:04:45,920
Speaker 1: a culture where it's perfectly legal for me for no

2302
02:04:46,040 --> 02:04:50,120
Speaker 1: other reason than my own pleasure to go get it

2303
02:04:50,240 --> 02:04:53,760
Speaker 1: your ten point buck shoot it. I don't have to

2304
02:04:53,840 --> 02:04:55,880
Speaker 1: do any I can go bring it back to my place,

2305
02:04:55,960 --> 02:04:58,160
Speaker 1: chop its head off, throw it out, and put it

2306
02:04:58,240 --> 02:05:02,320
Speaker 1: on my wall. That just seems like talk about where

2307
02:05:02,400 --> 02:05:05,360
Speaker 1: we've gone fucking sideways somewhere, like the fact that that

2308
02:05:05,680 --> 02:05:08,960
Speaker 1: is okay, as opposed to saying, you know, the kind

2309
02:05:09,000 --> 02:05:11,920
Speaker 1: of fair chase rules and the hunter's ethics and stuff.

2310
02:05:13,040 --> 02:05:17,440
Speaker 1: That just seems like, well, that's we've gone way off

2311
02:05:18,760 --> 02:05:22,040
Speaker 1: track here if that's okay. So I wonder if you

2312
02:05:22,040 --> 02:05:25,160
Speaker 1: would agree with me and that that's a reflection just

2313
02:05:25,360 --> 02:05:27,200
Speaker 1: like the thing in the plastic bag, and you throw

2314
02:05:27,320 --> 02:05:29,760
Speaker 1: the fact that we have somebody with a higher powered

2315
02:05:29,880 --> 02:05:32,720
Speaker 1: rifle killing, puts his head up, doesn't give a shit

2316
02:05:32,760 --> 02:05:36,720
Speaker 1: about it. That would you agree with me that that's

2317
02:05:36,800 --> 02:05:41,760
Speaker 1: something that we should we should advocate against or I mean,

2318
02:05:41,960 --> 02:05:44,480
Speaker 1: am I putting you on the spot on the No? No, no,

2319
02:05:44,640 --> 02:05:47,160
Speaker 1: I'm like, I'm I'm putting myself on the spot by

2320
02:05:47,200 --> 02:05:49,960
Speaker 1: haven't you on? Um? But I do that, and so

2321
02:05:50,120 --> 02:05:52,680
Speaker 1: we can have this conversation. So I think there's a

2322
02:05:52,720 --> 02:05:55,320
Speaker 1: lot and I discussed this, and there's a guy who

2323
02:05:55,440 --> 02:05:57,600
Speaker 1: was just on We'll just have been on the podcast

2324
02:05:57,680 --> 02:05:59,880
Speaker 1: prior to this, who is the Hunter? And it was

2325
02:06:00,360 --> 02:06:02,760
Speaker 1: who is saying, like my granddaddy's way of being a sport,

2326
02:06:02,840 --> 02:06:05,840
Speaker 1: hunter's gotta gotta go, like we gotta change this. And

2327
02:06:06,160 --> 02:06:09,280
Speaker 1: and I see that, and I see and I see it,

2328
02:06:09,360 --> 02:06:10,720
Speaker 1: and I look at it and I'm like, I kind

2329
02:06:10,760 --> 02:06:13,320
Speaker 1: of agree with you. But but there's something that pulls

2330
02:06:13,360 --> 02:06:16,480
Speaker 1: at me a little bit that the culture, in the

2331
02:06:16,600 --> 02:06:19,920
Speaker 1: idea of hunting is born in all types of motivations.

2332
02:06:21,080 --> 02:06:23,840
Speaker 1: So like a it's I'll start by saying, like, at

2333
02:06:23,840 --> 02:06:25,960
Speaker 1: its core, I can't really disagree with that because that's

2334
02:06:26,000 --> 02:06:28,240
Speaker 1: not what I do. Right. So, like your version of

2335
02:06:28,360 --> 02:06:31,480
Speaker 1: vegans and that you have if somebody's practicing there out

2336
02:06:31,520 --> 02:06:33,320
Speaker 1: there saying like if you don't need vegans, you're going

2337
02:06:33,360 --> 02:06:35,120
Speaker 1: to hell, or if you don't need vegetables, you're going

2338
02:06:35,160 --> 02:06:37,240
Speaker 1: to hell, Like you don't agree with that if you

2339
02:06:37,240 --> 02:06:39,600
Speaker 1: don't want to strike it from the ledger because it

2340
02:06:39,720 --> 02:06:42,400
Speaker 1: probably has some it's doing some good. And then in hunting,

2341
02:06:42,480 --> 02:06:45,160
Speaker 1: I know for a fact that we've set up a

2342
02:06:45,200 --> 02:06:48,200
Speaker 1: system where that guy who just chops the head off

2343
02:06:49,240 --> 02:06:51,200
Speaker 1: he has to pay money, and that money goes back

2344
02:06:51,240 --> 02:06:53,680
Speaker 1: to making sure there's more animals. He is doing good,

2345
02:06:53,720 --> 02:06:56,400
Speaker 1: whether he wants to or not, like he is killing

2346
02:06:56,440 --> 02:07:00,400
Speaker 1: an animal that that Wildlife biologists on the state level

2347
02:07:00,640 --> 02:07:02,920
Speaker 1: have said, there are this many animals, there's this much land,

2348
02:07:02,920 --> 02:07:05,960
Speaker 1: there's this many resources. We must balance them. Let's use

2349
02:07:06,040 --> 02:07:08,960
Speaker 1: this hunter, this trophy hunter, as a tool to help

2350
02:07:09,040 --> 02:07:11,440
Speaker 1: us do that. That in that triphy hunter will pay

2351
02:07:11,520 --> 02:07:15,000
Speaker 1: us money, you know he has. He assigns a different

2352
02:07:15,120 --> 02:07:16,960
Speaker 1: value to that animal. Maybe it's not the meat or

2353
02:07:17,000 --> 02:07:19,800
Speaker 1: the experience that I have. He signs a different value

2354
02:07:19,840 --> 02:07:22,480
Speaker 1: to it. He'll pay for that. We'll put that money

2355
02:07:22,520 --> 02:07:24,480
Speaker 1: back into making sure that we have the things we

2356
02:07:24,600 --> 02:07:27,160
Speaker 1: need to make sure these animals, you know, we perpetuate

2357
02:07:27,240 --> 02:07:30,680
Speaker 1: these populations in the future. And so I would just

2358
02:07:30,680 --> 02:07:33,000
Speaker 1: admit to being conflicted over that. I don't. It's not

2359
02:07:33,160 --> 02:07:36,680
Speaker 1: something that I that I do. I wouldn't if if

2360
02:07:36,920 --> 02:07:39,760
Speaker 1: I said this yesterday with Matt Johnson's if you took

2361
02:07:39,800 --> 02:07:41,920
Speaker 1: away the meat thing, it would I probably would quit

2362
02:07:42,000 --> 02:07:45,919
Speaker 1: doing it. I don't know. I have never been that situation.

2363
02:07:45,960 --> 02:07:47,640
Speaker 1: But if you said, hey, you can only hunt things

2364
02:07:47,680 --> 02:07:49,960
Speaker 1: you can't eat, Like, well, what's what's what are we doing?

2365
02:07:50,400 --> 02:07:52,640
Speaker 1: Why are we doing this? That you better have real

2366
02:07:52,720 --> 02:07:54,320
Speaker 1: I better have to sit back down and re or

2367
02:07:54,680 --> 02:07:58,080
Speaker 1: reorganize my thoughts around why I'm doing it. So there's

2368
02:07:58,120 --> 02:08:01,360
Speaker 1: that point. So I just it's just it's something I'm

2369
02:08:01,360 --> 02:08:04,120
Speaker 1: gonna flict in. I see why it's good. I see

2370
02:08:04,160 --> 02:08:06,960
Speaker 1: the actual like levers and buttons that we've in the

2371
02:08:07,120 --> 02:08:10,720
Speaker 1: systems we've created to make that guy good. Let's call

2372
02:08:10,760 --> 02:08:14,640
Speaker 1: that guy an asshole. I've seen that. I've seen that

2373
02:08:14,720 --> 02:08:17,720
Speaker 1: it costs ago in a sheep hunt, and I've watched

2374
02:08:17,720 --> 02:08:21,640
Speaker 1: sheep hunters shooting shoot a sheep and just knowing they're

2375
02:08:21,640 --> 02:08:23,920
Speaker 1: not gonna take the meat, but giving the meat to

2376
02:08:23,960 --> 02:08:27,600
Speaker 1: the local native tribe or something, or a local poor

2377
02:08:27,720 --> 02:08:31,040
Speaker 1: family and lauding themselves for that. You know, it's like, yeah, okay,

2378
02:08:31,520 --> 02:08:33,240
Speaker 1: at least we've built in the hunting community, we have

2379
02:08:33,360 --> 02:08:36,640
Speaker 1: built this thing where you better at least you better,

2380
02:08:36,720 --> 02:08:40,360
Speaker 1: at the very least somehow make yourself seem good. It's

2381
02:08:40,400 --> 02:08:43,480
Speaker 1: because we don't tolerate that ship. If you're just whacking

2382
02:08:43,560 --> 02:08:45,960
Speaker 1: stuff and and rolling around, we don't really tolerate that.

2383
02:08:46,640 --> 02:08:49,320
Speaker 1: You better give money to conservation, you better give the

2384
02:08:49,360 --> 02:08:51,800
Speaker 1: meat to someone who needs it, you better do something

2385
02:08:52,400 --> 02:08:58,440
Speaker 1: to stay in the club. I'm comfortable there, but philosophically,

2386
02:08:58,440 --> 02:09:01,240
Speaker 1: I don't agree with that person. And I'm sure you

2387
02:09:01,280 --> 02:09:04,360
Speaker 1: could probably say the same with lots of lots of

2388
02:09:04,480 --> 02:09:09,120
Speaker 1: vegan folks. Um. So it's so it's definitely complicated that way.

2389
02:09:09,200 --> 02:09:11,920
Speaker 1: And I mean there's times where I've spoken out against

2390
02:09:12,080 --> 02:09:17,680
Speaker 1: certain groups and I've supported certain groups. And I'd love

2391
02:09:17,720 --> 02:09:19,240
Speaker 1: to see a time where we don't have to say

2392
02:09:19,280 --> 02:09:21,080
Speaker 1: the word trophy hunting, or we don't have to like

2393
02:09:21,560 --> 02:09:27,560
Speaker 1: have that conversation. But we're here, you know, and I wish,

2394
02:09:27,800 --> 02:09:29,920
Speaker 1: I wish we could have the full conversation, And like

2395
02:09:30,000 --> 02:09:32,360
Speaker 1: the mainstream, I wish we could really just have the

2396
02:09:32,400 --> 02:09:35,640
Speaker 1: full conversation, not just pluck the thing that you know

2397
02:09:35,880 --> 02:09:39,280
Speaker 1: that is controversial and push it, push it forward. Maybe

2398
02:09:39,280 --> 02:09:41,600
Speaker 1: if somebody can take that away from this conversation, like boy,

2399
02:09:41,680 --> 02:09:43,520
Speaker 1: it's not We're just not that far away. We never

2400
02:09:43,600 --> 02:09:47,040
Speaker 1: have been. I don't really think. Um, we can pick

2401
02:09:47,160 --> 02:09:49,560
Speaker 1: reasons why we are. We can say trophy hunting far away,

2402
02:09:49,840 --> 02:09:54,400
Speaker 1: you know, crazy naked liberal lady far away, but that's

2403
02:09:54,440 --> 02:09:56,160
Speaker 1: not really at the core world we're trying to get to,

2404
02:09:56,800 --> 02:09:59,920
Speaker 1: you know. That's the that's the friendship that we all

2405
02:10:00,160 --> 02:10:02,680
Speaker 1: point to, is that people that aren't smart enough to

2406
02:10:02,720 --> 02:10:05,840
Speaker 1: come up with their own ideas just point to that stuff. Um.

2407
02:10:06,440 --> 02:10:10,040
Speaker 1: But I think people that that follow our company and

2408
02:10:11,000 --> 02:10:13,640
Speaker 1: listen to this have thought this through and I've talked

2409
02:10:13,680 --> 02:10:15,120
Speaker 1: to a lot of them, and a lot of them

2410
02:10:15,160 --> 02:10:20,120
Speaker 1: are where I'm at there generationally moving away from what

2411
02:10:20,240 --> 02:10:22,600
Speaker 1: it used to be and trying to figure out what

2412
02:10:22,800 --> 02:10:25,000
Speaker 1: is ethics. You know. I've given some talks on hunting

2413
02:10:25,040 --> 02:10:27,840
Speaker 1: ethics and sporting ethics and a lot of people come

2414
02:10:27,920 --> 02:10:30,360
Speaker 1: and a lot of people have questions. And so I

2415
02:10:30,400 --> 02:10:33,320
Speaker 1: think there's a generation, not just our generation, but like

2416
02:10:33,400 --> 02:10:35,880
Speaker 1: a movement within the hunting world to better understand this

2417
02:10:35,960 --> 02:10:38,840
Speaker 1: stuff and be able to better articulate it, where maybe

2418
02:10:38,920 --> 02:10:41,200
Speaker 1: before it would be like there was a there was

2419
02:10:41,200 --> 02:10:45,280
Speaker 1: a principle when I was coming up that was I

2420
02:10:45,320 --> 02:10:46,640
Speaker 1: don't know if it was my dad's, but it was

2421
02:10:46,720 --> 02:10:49,640
Speaker 1: definitely his generations. I was like, don't talk about it

2422
02:10:50,000 --> 02:10:51,840
Speaker 1: because if you go hunting and you just keep it

2423
02:10:51,880 --> 02:10:56,280
Speaker 1: between us, like nobody will come and attack. And if

2424
02:10:56,320 --> 02:10:59,000
Speaker 1: it's if it's just us amongst us, we get what

2425
02:10:59,080 --> 02:11:02,280
Speaker 1: it is um and then social media game and then

2426
02:11:02,320 --> 02:11:05,800
Speaker 1: here we are, you know, vegan philosopher and a hunting

2427
02:11:06,120 --> 02:11:09,840
Speaker 1: bearded hunting guy talking. Yeah, but I really appreciated him.

2428
02:11:09,920 --> 02:11:11,560
Speaker 1: I feel like we've covered all the ground. Is there

2429
02:11:11,560 --> 02:11:15,920
Speaker 1: anything left on the on the plate? Uh? I mean

2430
02:11:15,960 --> 02:11:18,200
Speaker 1: we could talk for hours. No, I think I think

2431
02:11:18,240 --> 02:11:22,600
Speaker 1: for what we covered, yeah, I mean if if, if

2432
02:11:22,720 --> 02:11:27,000
Speaker 1: nothing else comes up this discussion. What I hope is

2433
02:11:27,120 --> 02:11:31,280
Speaker 1: that people who are listening who don't agree with animal

2434
02:11:31,400 --> 02:11:34,200
Speaker 1: rights or veganism or this kind of way that I

2435
02:11:34,280 --> 02:11:38,520
Speaker 1: look at the world, is that they at least I

2436
02:11:38,640 --> 02:11:45,960
Speaker 1: think that there's substantial body of of thought. It's it's

2437
02:11:46,040 --> 02:11:51,520
Speaker 1: it's it's not simply like animals are sacred and you're

2438
02:11:51,600 --> 02:11:55,160
Speaker 1: killing them and you're bad. It's it's if nothing else,

2439
02:11:55,240 --> 02:11:59,200
Speaker 1: they see that this is actually a nuanced, you know, view,

2440
02:11:59,400 --> 02:12:01,800
Speaker 1: that that is not merely like you said, throwing the

2441
02:12:01,840 --> 02:12:03,880
Speaker 1: blood on the I mean, it's not loony tunes what

2442
02:12:03,960 --> 02:12:06,480
Speaker 1: you're saying, what you're saying to me. At least maybe people,

2443
02:12:06,520 --> 02:12:08,000
Speaker 1: maybe this will be the end of my podcast Hall

2444
02:12:08,040 --> 02:12:09,880
Speaker 1: Hunters will be like this, dude, what the is he

2445
02:12:09,920 --> 02:12:11,960
Speaker 1: talking about but he didn't speak for us, but I

2446
02:12:11,960 --> 02:12:14,280
Speaker 1: don't only speaking for myself. And like when when where

2447
02:12:14,280 --> 02:12:16,000
Speaker 1: I'm in the room with you and we're talking like this,

2448
02:12:16,160 --> 02:12:17,960
Speaker 1: there's a lot of it that makes sense. And like

2449
02:12:18,040 --> 02:12:20,320
Speaker 1: I said, it wasn't I didn't. That didn't just happen

2450
02:12:20,360 --> 02:12:23,040
Speaker 1: to me. I thought that for for quite a while. Um,

2451
02:12:23,880 --> 02:12:28,680
Speaker 1: And so who knows how many people will will listen

2452
02:12:28,760 --> 02:12:31,160
Speaker 1: to this and have those realizations, but I think a

2453
02:12:31,200 --> 02:12:34,080
Speaker 1: lot will because I think it. We're just a lot

2454
02:12:34,160 --> 02:12:38,600
Speaker 1: closer than we thought, or most of us think. And

2455
02:12:38,760 --> 02:12:40,320
Speaker 1: taking a little bit of time to walk through it,

2456
02:12:41,000 --> 02:12:42,240
Speaker 1: that's all you gotta do. Take a little bit of

2457
02:12:42,280 --> 02:12:43,920
Speaker 1: time with vegan. If you're out there listening to this,

2458
02:12:44,680 --> 02:12:46,520
Speaker 1: then you've got a vegan aunt that just always yells

2459
02:12:46,520 --> 02:12:50,200
Speaker 1: at you about your steak, your venison. Sit down with

2460
02:12:50,320 --> 02:12:53,320
Speaker 1: her and have this kind of conversation. Be like and

2461
02:12:53,680 --> 02:12:56,560
Speaker 1: and if either of the two of you in the

2462
02:12:56,680 --> 02:13:00,760
Speaker 1: conversation hasn't thought out their ideologies enough, boy, you're gonna

2463
02:13:00,760 --> 02:13:03,600
Speaker 1: be like, oh shut I better go back to I'm

2464
02:13:03,640 --> 02:13:06,440
Speaker 1: pretty go back, I go bettert to go get get

2465
02:13:06,480 --> 02:13:09,880
Speaker 1: back in the idea, Jim, start lifting. Anyone who wants

2466
02:13:09,880 --> 02:13:12,480
Speaker 1: to contact me, tell him to my website. Yeah, what's

2467
02:13:12,480 --> 02:13:14,720
Speaker 1: your website? Where can people find? I just googled you

2468
02:13:14,840 --> 02:13:17,080
Speaker 1: and like started watching videos and reading your paper. Is

2469
02:13:17,120 --> 02:13:21,040
Speaker 1: there a better? RC Jones dot m E r C.

2470
02:13:21,200 --> 02:13:23,959
Speaker 1: Jones dot emmy. You know, I feel kind of embarrassed

2471
02:13:23,960 --> 02:13:27,280
Speaker 1: because r C. Jones dot com, it's arc Jones is common.

2472
02:13:27,560 --> 02:13:29,880
Speaker 1: The only thing they had left was me, And I'm like,

2473
02:13:30,960 --> 02:13:34,960
Speaker 1: sounds it sounds so like, you know, like narcissistic, like anyway,

2474
02:13:35,680 --> 02:13:37,600
Speaker 1: with a name like rcy Jones, all the other things

2475
02:13:37,640 --> 02:13:41,240
Speaker 1: were taken. So if it was like arc Jones dot awesome, Okay,

2476
02:13:42,120 --> 02:13:46,800
Speaker 1: I thought I'm awesome. All right, you're being a little presumptive.

2477
02:13:47,400 --> 02:13:52,520
Speaker 1: You're pretty cool anyway. R C. Jones dot me if

2478
02:13:52,560 --> 02:13:54,800
Speaker 1: you want to, and you can shoot me an email.

2479
02:13:54,960 --> 02:13:58,400
Speaker 1: What I mean, I I love to dialogue about this

2480
02:13:58,480 --> 02:14:02,280
Speaker 1: stuff because I think dialogue is I you know, we

2481
02:14:02,440 --> 02:14:05,320
Speaker 1: talked about earlier about living a life we're trying to

2482
02:14:05,640 --> 02:14:09,000
Speaker 1: you knows, as I say in the paper, aspiring to

2483
02:14:09,160 --> 02:14:12,480
Speaker 1: live a life of non violence and less suffering. I

2484
02:14:12,600 --> 02:14:18,760
Speaker 1: think modeling dialogue is rather than vitual and and this

2485
02:14:18,960 --> 02:14:22,200
Speaker 1: polemic and yelling and you're done and you know, I

2486
02:14:22,320 --> 02:14:28,800
Speaker 1: think part of that responsibility to non violence is to model. Yeah,

2487
02:14:28,840 --> 02:14:31,600
Speaker 1: and that's a great point. Yeah, And I remember early

2488
02:14:31,680 --> 02:14:33,840
Speaker 1: in my career. I mean, I look back a lot

2489
02:14:33,840 --> 02:14:35,440
Speaker 1: of stuff I've written in my career. I worked for

2490
02:14:35,520 --> 02:14:37,360
Speaker 1: the n r A, like when I first came out

2491
02:14:37,360 --> 02:14:40,440
Speaker 1: of college, and it was a great place, nice people.

2492
02:14:40,720 --> 02:14:42,320
Speaker 1: You know, they believe that they believe. And I still

2493
02:14:42,440 --> 02:14:44,600
Speaker 1: I believe very hard, whole hardly in the Second Amendment

2494
02:14:44,640 --> 02:14:48,800
Speaker 1: and all those things. Um, But there's just ways that

2495
02:14:48,920 --> 02:14:52,960
Speaker 1: I that I spoke and wrote at that time that

2496
02:14:53,040 --> 02:14:55,840
Speaker 1: I just don't know that I knew the gravity of

2497
02:14:56,200 --> 02:14:58,720
Speaker 1: of what I was saying. You know, anti hunters was

2498
02:14:58,760 --> 02:15:02,960
Speaker 1: a big thing, and this is it's like, yeah, okay,

2499
02:15:03,120 --> 02:15:06,320
Speaker 1: it's not. That might make me feel good like there's

2500
02:15:06,320 --> 02:15:08,120
Speaker 1: an enemy out there, but it ain't really going to

2501
02:15:08,160 --> 02:15:09,440
Speaker 1: get to the point of what I'm trying to do

2502
02:15:09,520 --> 02:15:11,560
Speaker 1: is make sure there isn't anti hunters. If I want

2503
02:15:11,600 --> 02:15:13,240
Speaker 1: to make sure there isn't anti hunters, I better not

2504
02:15:13,880 --> 02:15:16,440
Speaker 1: like close the bridge off, like I bet you. If

2505
02:15:17,040 --> 02:15:18,640
Speaker 1: if I want to make sure there's more hunters, I'd

2506
02:15:18,680 --> 02:15:20,960
Speaker 1: better not be so rigid in my ideologies that you

2507
02:15:21,160 --> 02:15:22,720
Speaker 1: have to think the way I think to get in

2508
02:15:22,840 --> 02:15:26,280
Speaker 1: the club. If I do that, then unless people are

2509
02:15:26,320 --> 02:15:28,640
Speaker 1: gonna come into the old, the old hunting club. So

2510
02:15:29,560 --> 02:15:32,640
Speaker 1: I think that's true for any you know, mechanism or

2511
02:15:32,720 --> 02:15:34,960
Speaker 1: hunting or anything like. You know, if we can open up,

2512
02:15:35,760 --> 02:15:37,880
Speaker 1: open the shades and be like, this is what's really

2513
02:15:37,920 --> 02:15:39,680
Speaker 1: going on in here. Some of it's really great, some

2514
02:15:39,800 --> 02:15:43,840
Speaker 1: of it not so great, all of it is complicated. Um,

2515
02:15:44,560 --> 02:15:47,560
Speaker 1: we embrace those things and we can we can do something,

2516
02:15:48,040 --> 02:15:51,920
Speaker 1: do something good. So well, I appreciate you coming. Thanks Penn.

2517
02:15:51,960 --> 02:15:54,880
Speaker 1: It was really nice of great discussion. It's really nice

2518
02:15:54,920 --> 02:15:56,920
Speaker 1: to meet you. Yeah, we'll have to do we'll have

2519
02:15:57,000 --> 02:16:00,240
Speaker 1: to do more and see what we can well too.

2520
02:16:00,280 --> 02:16:01,920
Speaker 1: And I think they're, like you said, we can do

2521
02:16:02,720 --> 02:16:04,920
Speaker 1: do a lot with this conversation. Take it further, or

2522
02:16:05,040 --> 02:16:08,600
Speaker 1: take this exact conversation and get more people involved. I

2523
02:16:08,640 --> 02:16:10,920
Speaker 1: think of you. It's an important thing. I like it

2524
02:16:11,080 --> 02:16:18,000
Speaker 1: all right. Thanks man, I guess I grew up on

2525
02:16:18,120 --> 02:16:25,879
Speaker 1: and all day row. That's it. That is all episode

2526
02:16:25,880 --> 02:16:28,240
Speaker 1: seventy one of the books. Thank you to Phil, Thank

2527
02:16:28,320 --> 02:16:32,240
Speaker 1: you to Robert Jones, Thanks to all of you for listening.

2528
02:16:32,840 --> 02:16:34,800
Speaker 1: I will say that the last two episodes are something

2529
02:16:34,840 --> 02:16:37,920
Speaker 1: that I thought about since the time that I I

2530
02:16:38,000 --> 02:16:41,840
Speaker 1: thought about doing this podcast, um for a bunch of reasons,

2531
02:16:41,879 --> 02:16:44,720
Speaker 1: but one to challenge my own ideas about animal rights

2532
02:16:44,800 --> 02:16:49,880
Speaker 1: and about veganism, to challenge my ideas about Berkeley, California

2533
02:16:49,920 --> 02:16:52,160
Speaker 1: and the people that live there, and to bring myself

2534
02:16:52,240 --> 02:16:55,040
Speaker 1: closer to the things I don't understand. So that's what

2535
02:16:55,200 --> 02:16:58,440
Speaker 1: I wanted to do. Hopefully I definitely achieved that for myself.

2536
02:16:58,920 --> 02:17:03,280
Speaker 1: I think having both these conversations with Matt Johnson and

2537
02:17:03,480 --> 02:17:07,720
Speaker 1: Robert Jones back to back helped me have a deeper

2538
02:17:07,800 --> 02:17:10,720
Speaker 1: perspective and and find real good meeting and in the

2539
02:17:10,800 --> 02:17:13,800
Speaker 1: time I spent with both those gentlemen and and moreover

2540
02:17:13,879 --> 02:17:17,000
Speaker 1: the time I spent in Berkeley, California exploring these ideas.

2541
02:17:17,080 --> 02:17:19,480
Speaker 1: So hopefully there's value in it for you. There certainly

2542
02:17:19,560 --> 02:17:23,240
Speaker 1: was valuing it for me, and I guess it's an aside.

2543
02:17:23,320 --> 02:17:26,000
Speaker 1: One thing I was thinking is that I would love

2544
02:17:26,160 --> 02:17:28,280
Speaker 1: to to go on the road with Robert C. Jones

2545
02:17:28,360 --> 02:17:31,040
Speaker 1: and take that conversation and and let people sit in

2546
02:17:31,120 --> 02:17:34,360
Speaker 1: the audience and listen to us talk and ask questions

2547
02:17:34,400 --> 02:17:36,920
Speaker 1: and make assertions and just open it up to to

2548
02:17:37,080 --> 02:17:40,000
Speaker 1: a larger dialogue. I just I just felt I'm sitting

2549
02:17:40,000 --> 02:17:42,720
Speaker 1: in a hotel room with with the guy. I felt

2550
02:17:42,760 --> 02:17:45,600
Speaker 1: that it was so much value in that room that

2551
02:17:45,800 --> 02:17:49,160
Speaker 1: he brought in his perspective that it would be great

2552
02:17:49,280 --> 02:17:51,880
Speaker 1: for other folks to see that. So right in, tell

2553
02:17:51,920 --> 02:17:54,040
Speaker 1: me either to send us out and let us do it,

2554
02:17:54,120 --> 02:17:56,640
Speaker 1: because that would be cool. Um. Also, you know, I'd

2555
02:17:56,640 --> 02:17:58,560
Speaker 1: have to ask Robert make sure he's got some time

2556
02:17:58,800 --> 02:18:00,959
Speaker 1: to go and do it. But that's that's neither here

2557
02:18:01,040 --> 02:18:04,280
Speaker 1: nor there. What else? What else? What else? Oh? Um?

2558
02:18:05,240 --> 02:18:07,160
Speaker 1: The Mediator dot com, you gotta go go to the

2559
02:18:07,200 --> 02:18:09,400
Speaker 1: metor dot com. I don't talk enough on this show

2560
02:18:09,440 --> 02:18:12,680
Speaker 1: about some of the content on the Mediator dot com.

2561
02:18:14,040 --> 02:18:15,920
Speaker 1: It's I work on it every day. I got a

2562
02:18:15,959 --> 02:18:18,920
Speaker 1: great team of people here, Sam Longdren Spencer, new Art,

2563
02:18:19,040 --> 02:18:22,040
Speaker 1: Morgen Mason, Joe Fernando. These guys are working on the

2564
02:18:22,080 --> 02:18:26,400
Speaker 1: website every day. We're posting a dozen or more articles

2565
02:18:26,400 --> 02:18:30,160
Speaker 1: a week there for you. That includes recipes, that includes

2566
02:18:30,320 --> 02:18:32,360
Speaker 1: a thing where we launch called fact Checker, where you

2567
02:18:32,520 --> 02:18:35,879
Speaker 1: right in and ask us um to debunk a myth

2568
02:18:36,200 --> 02:18:40,200
Speaker 1: that's out there. We have asked wire to hunt from

2569
02:18:40,240 --> 02:18:42,480
Speaker 1: Mark Kenyon we have a gear dump series we just

2570
02:18:42,600 --> 02:18:46,320
Speaker 1: launched where guys like Brian Callahan are dumping out his

2571
02:18:46,360 --> 02:18:50,640
Speaker 1: traditional archity traveling kid and guys like Brodie Henderson are

2572
02:18:50,720 --> 02:18:53,480
Speaker 1: showing you what he carries in his bucket when he

2573
02:18:53,520 --> 02:18:55,920
Speaker 1: goes fishing with his kids down by the lake. So

2574
02:18:56,120 --> 02:18:58,880
Speaker 1: all that stuff, it is too much content for you

2575
02:18:58,920 --> 02:19:01,039
Speaker 1: probably to take in on ada a league weekly basis,

2576
02:19:01,520 --> 02:19:03,240
Speaker 1: And we're gonna keep pumping it out for you over

2577
02:19:03,280 --> 02:19:05,720
Speaker 1: there at the meat eat or dot com. So so

2578
02:19:05,800 --> 02:19:06,920
Speaker 1: head over there, and while you're there, to go to

2579
02:19:07,000 --> 02:19:09,600
Speaker 1: the store and buy some th HC swag. That would

2580
02:19:09,640 --> 02:19:14,240
Speaker 1: be great. And I'll end with please please please right

2581
02:19:14,280 --> 02:19:16,600
Speaker 1: in th HC at the meetator dot com. Th HC

2582
02:19:16,840 --> 02:19:18,959
Speaker 1: at the meetor dot com. Tell us what she thought

2583
02:19:19,000 --> 02:19:21,640
Speaker 1: of this show. Tell us whether we need to keep

2584
02:19:21,680 --> 02:19:24,520
Speaker 1: feel or not. Tell us whether we need to talk

2585
02:19:24,520 --> 02:19:27,400
Speaker 1: about Game of Thrones. Tell us whether you like peas.

2586
02:19:28,520 --> 02:19:32,480
Speaker 1: Tell us whether you are enlightened by our conversation about

2587
02:19:32,600 --> 02:19:36,480
Speaker 1: veganism and animal rights. So next time we're going to

2588
02:19:36,600 --> 02:19:41,960
Speaker 1: talk to a very enlightening gentleman. His name is I

2589
02:19:42,120 --> 02:19:53,720
Speaker 1: fucking forgot his name? Hell Well, William von Hippell, Damn

2590
02:19:53,760 --> 02:19:59,840
Speaker 1: it Bill. We'll just keep this all in Phil. The

2591
02:20:00,200 --> 02:20:03,160
Speaker 1: thing I forgot William von Hibble. Sorry, Dr Ron Hipple.

2592
02:20:04,040 --> 02:20:10,600
Speaker 1: Your name is so it rhymes with nipple, so why

2593
02:20:10,640 --> 02:20:13,320
Speaker 1: would I even forget that. Anyway, We'll see you next week. Bye,

2594
02:20:14,440 --> 02:20:19,000
Speaker 1: Thank you, Jack Daniels. Oh I'm seven, Tennessee. Who whiskey

2595
02:20:19,120 --> 02:20:22,360
Speaker 1: got me dragging heaven and h and just got to

2596
02:20:22,480 --> 02:20:25,840
Speaker 1: look good to me. They're gonna have to department to

2597
02:20:26,040 --> 02:20:40,800
Speaker 1: the farade, Oh the far red, far dragging heaven,