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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, gracious, Jiminy Christmas, it's behind the Bastards

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Speaker 2: a podcast about Adolph Iikman for the last two weeks,

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Speaker 2: mister Holocaust himself as I shouldn't have titled these episodes

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Speaker 2: what's wrong with me? Uh?

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Speaker 3: What?

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Speaker 1: Enough time for that?

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Speaker 2: Whatever? Yeah, whatever is wrong with me? It's not what's

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Speaker 2: wrong with our guest for today Joe Kassalian, who actually

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Speaker 2: necessary similar kind of person in some way. So anyway, Joe,

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Speaker 2: welcome to the show. Hello, what is wrong with us?

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Speaker 2: Why do we do this?

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Speaker 4: And I don't know, I don't know.

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Speaker 2: All I know is that we're talking about friend of

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Speaker 2: the pod, Adolph Iikman, who is, you know, the head

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Speaker 2: of the Jewish Desk for Genocide at the SD at

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Speaker 2: this point. He is, prior in the previous episodes, established

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Speaker 2: himself as the Czar of the Jews, partly by taking

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Speaker 2: credit for a lot of acts of genocide that he

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Speaker 2: actually didn't orchestrate or that he had a smaller part in.

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Speaker 2: You know, he's been kind of pissing off a lot

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Speaker 2: of his colleagues prior to this point by lying about

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Speaker 2: what he's done and taking credit for shit they've done.

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Speaker 2: And now we're at the point in the war where

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Speaker 2: things are bad enough that everyone's like, oh, yeah, that

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Speaker 2: shit I did Iikman definitely did it. This was absolutely him, right,

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Speaker 2: And they're going from being like throwing his name around

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Speaker 2: to get shit done to being like, oh, Iikman, I

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Speaker 2: hardly know him.

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Speaker 4: You know Iikeman showing up at the Nazi table to

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Speaker 4: see if everybody could like show off the ranks of

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Speaker 4: war crimes. To find out he's the only one still

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Speaker 4: doing it.

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Speaker 2: Like yeah, ah fuck, oh yeah, you're it's all on you.

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Speaker 2: Oh buddy.

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Speaker 4: Yeah. I would have done that too, because I know

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Speaker 4: he would have taken credit for it. Yeah yeah. It's like, look, man,

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Speaker 4: you've been stealing my content for years now, you could

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Speaker 4: have it.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, Heinrik Kimler's like, hey, you want my coat, my

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Speaker 2: name documents, Yeah, buddy. So in the final two years

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Speaker 2: of the war, sas perpetrators, particularly the crew of men

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Speaker 2: around Iikman, would go through a rapid process of flipping

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Speaker 2: from wanting the Holocaust to be on their CVS to

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Speaker 2: wanting to hide their involvement, and this was often done

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Speaker 2: by pinning their own actions on Iikman, who is their

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Speaker 2: most famous coworker in the field of genocide. He's the

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Speaker 2: He's the Alan Smithy or whatever that fake director name

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Speaker 2: that you like put on a movie if you don't

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Speaker 2: want your name on it. He's the Alan Smithy of

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Speaker 2: genocide where you're like, yeah, let's just say he did it.

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Speaker 2: The Allies consciously sought to spook top Nazis and the

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Speaker 2: final years of the war. And it's very fair to

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Speaker 2: critique the Allies, to critique Roosevelt, to critique even Eisenhower

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Speaker 2: of not doing enough to put a stop to the Holocaust,

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Speaker 2: because they don't.

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Speaker 4: They absolutely don't.

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Speaker 2: Choices were made not to bomb railroads, and they knew

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Speaker 2: what was happening, they had reports. This is on them, right.

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Speaker 2: It's part of why Eisenhower acts so strongly to document

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Speaker 2: what had happened afterwards is he feels bad. He knows

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Speaker 2: he could have done more.

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Speaker 4: Right, they all do, and they straight up refuse to

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Speaker 4: bomb Auschwitz when there is an agent inside. I'm probably

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Speaker 4: mispronouncing his name of it. Told Pilecki, yes, like beg

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Speaker 4: them to bomb it.

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Speaker 2: It's like, look, we would all rather die stop it now, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, that was like the undergrounds, take inside the cams

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Speaker 4: like we would rather all fucking die.

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Speaker 2: Yes, please blow this place up with us in it.

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Speaker 2: If it's just said no, yeah, and they said no.

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Speaker 2: One thing the Allies do do that does save some lives, right,

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Speaker 2: not enough, but some is. They start broadcasting the names

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Speaker 2: of ss mass murderers on illegal radio stations that are

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Speaker 2: broadcasting into occupied territory, saying we know who you are,

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Speaker 2: and if you cut the shit off right now, you

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Speaker 2: might have a chance of surviving post war the old

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Speaker 2: doc sing right, Some number of guys are like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: I'm gonna pull back a little bit, right, and that

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Speaker 2: does save some number of life not nearly enough, but

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Speaker 2: it's a thing that they're doing, right, And this is

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Speaker 2: partly why people start pulling back and letting Iikman take

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Speaker 2: more credit and trying to because they're like, oh, I

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Speaker 2: heard my name on the radio. That's not good. Have

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Speaker 2: you heard how fast the Russians are advancing?

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Speaker 4: Shit, I am already running west.

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Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah. Expunging the evidence of their own complicity and

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Speaker 2: putting it on Iikman was made easier by the fact

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Speaker 2: that the self proclaimed Czar of the Jews seem to

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Speaker 2: have no overt sense of self preservation or desire to

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Speaker 2: deny his role even once it became clear that this

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Speaker 2: was going to be bad for him. He must have

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Speaker 2: noticed the rapid change among his colleagues, but Tina Stangnath

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Speaker 2: rights than the last year of the war, his friends

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Speaker 2: stopped meeting him for lunch quote even though the and

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Speaker 2: I love this part, even though the canteen and Iikman's

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Speaker 2: office building was one of the few who have to

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Speaker 2: have remained untouched by the air raids. Right, he's the

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Speaker 2: only guy of the working kitchen, and we won't go

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Speaker 2: to lunch with him. That's how mad his position.

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Speaker 4: Is, said Aikman, sitting alone at lunch.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, does no one know that my kitchen is still working?

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Speaker 4: You guys want to trade by Bob ppa.

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Speaker 2: J Yeah, and they are all starving and they're like, nah,

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Speaker 2: but I'm not gonna eat there. Bro, Like, you don't

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Speaker 2: want to be seen next to that motherfucker right.

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Speaker 4: Fuck that, I'm boiling my boots. This sucks.

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Speaker 2: He is so toxic people will give up the guarantee

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Speaker 2: of a full belly to be avoid being seen next

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Speaker 2: to him. He would later complain about the whiplash of

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Speaker 2: being dumped so unceremoniously by the whole less ass elite

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Speaker 2: and complain that a few years earlier people couldn't do

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Speaker 2: enough to invite me to minister's meetings or to unofficial meetings,

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Speaker 2: private dinners and such like. But once the Russians broke

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Speaker 2: through in Poland, he became a sort of ghost. Right.

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Speaker 2: He's like man a year ago, two years ago, I

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Speaker 2: was at every dinner. No one even wants to eat

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Speaker 2: at my place anymore.

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Speaker 4: We used to be cool. Man, What happened?

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Speaker 2: What happened? Right. For his part, while Eichmann didn't seek

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Speaker 2: to erase his own record, he did later claim that

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Speaker 2: he spent the last months of the war engaged just

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Speaker 2: in simple logistics tasks. Right, Oh, I wasn't doing any

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Speaker 2: more genocide at this point. I was trying to make

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Speaker 2: sure enough food made it into Berlin for the defenders, right,

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Speaker 2: and my office had enough defenses for the fighting, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: I wasn't involved in anything horrible, right, just normal war stuff.

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Speaker 2: This is a lie. By the end of forty four,

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Speaker 2: even the most deluded SS officials knew their goose was cooked,

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Speaker 2: and also they had no more goose to eat. A

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Speaker 2: decision was no more goose to step. Yeah, there's no

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Speaker 2: more gooses to step or to eat. A decision was

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Speaker 2: made that even if the war against the Allies was

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Speaker 2: going to be lost, they still had to win the

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Speaker 2: war against the Jews. Therefore, the killing would continue right

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Speaker 2: up until the last possible minute. Even if, and they

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Speaker 2: make the choice, trains with critical war materiel are diverted

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Speaker 2: from propping up the front line to the task of

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Speaker 2: sending Jews to death camps. They choose. The high command

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Speaker 2: Hitler in the military breast choose the Holocaust over delaying

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Speaker 2: the Russians.

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Speaker 4: Outstanding, well done boys, Yeah.

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Speaker 2: Heinrich Himler personally approved such actions, and he had one

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Speaker 2: on one meetings with Eikman to ensure that Eichman was

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Speaker 2: properly briefed and supported to manage this task. While Hitler

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Speaker 2: retreated to his bunker and travel within the Reich grew

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Speaker 2: increasingly dangerous, Eikman spent the last months of the war

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Speaker 2: on the move constantly. Stegnath writes Aikman was involved in

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Speaker 2: the very last extermination campaign, the gassing of Ravensbrook concentration

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Speaker 2: Camp on January twenty sixth, nineteen forty five. Auto moles

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Speaker 2: Notoria's Special Commando was sent to the camp with its

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Speaker 2: gas fans, and gas chambers were also erected there. One

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Speaker 2: of his duties. Eichman's duties was to gather up famous

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Speaker 2: Jews and turned in different lower security camps. Some prominent

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Speaker 2: intellectuals and celebrities have been kept in comparatively survivable accommodations

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Speaker 2: in places like theresan stat in order, which is treason

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Speaker 2: stat is like the nice concentration camp. And as we'll say,

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Speaker 2: I don't mean it was a nice place. I mean

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Speaker 2: it was the best of the camps to be in, right.

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Speaker 4: If memory serves me correctly, it was the one that

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Speaker 4: they set up to bring the Red Cross to.

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Speaker 2: Yes, that's what we're about to talk about. That's s.

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Speaker 2: Eichman's job, right, And this is treason stat is comparatively

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Speaker 2: nice because as you said, it's meant to be a

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Speaker 2: show camp that you can display to the death camps. No,

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Speaker 2: these are just camps for like political you know, we've

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Speaker 2: got to everyone has some of these, right, and that's true.

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Speaker 4: Just h it's just a labor camp for y undesirables.

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Speaker 2: England has concentration camps for Germans, right, they're not death camps.

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Speaker 2: They're just constant. And there's a difference between the two. Right,

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Speaker 2: you're just concentrating people in a concentration camp, and that's

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Speaker 2: the Germans. You're like, No, our camp is just like

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Speaker 2: with the English hat for Germans. Right, these are people

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Speaker 2: who are politically unreliable, but we're not killing.

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Speaker 4: Them, no, right, we would never do that.

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Speaker 2: This is why if you're a Jew who's internationally famous

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Speaker 2: and gets caught, you saw, Obviously a good number of

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Speaker 2: those people do get killed, but a lot of them

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Speaker 2: are put into reason stat for a while, because well,

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Speaker 2: people are kind of want to know what's happened to

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Speaker 2: this guy, and if we can show him or her

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Speaker 2: into reason stat, right, it'll keep the international community from

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Speaker 2: thinking things are as bad as they are, right.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, and we can handle them later, and.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, we will handle And again, a lot of these

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Speaker 2: people do get killed, they're just kept there for a while, right,

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Speaker 2: And these same prominent Jews that it was hoped might

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Speaker 2: provide leverage for men like Himler right, once the warg

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Speaker 2: is late enough to like, well, now we don't want

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Speaker 2: to kill these guys, but like, if we've got these

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Speaker 2: famous Jews that we've kept kind of in the fridge. Right,

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Speaker 2: they're preserved, we can maybe trade them to let guys

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Speaker 2: like Himmler escape, right to you know what, We'll trade

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Speaker 2: them to the Allies postwar to keep our own asses safe.

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Speaker 4: So, oh, man, I don't think there's anybody famous enough

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Speaker 4: for that to work.

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Speaker 2: No, no, not by the end of this shit.

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Speaker 4: Nope.

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Speaker 2: Iikeman's job then is to both ensure some of these

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Speaker 2: people are safe and also you have to convince them

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Speaker 2: to keep their mouth shut about the murders they'd witnessed.

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Speaker 2: For example, after that last gassing at Ravensbrook, Iikman transfers

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Speaker 2: several women from Ravensbrook Brook to Theresenstat in February of

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Speaker 2: nineteen forty five, and he meets with them personally to

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Speaker 2: basically be like, hey, y'all are gonna live. The Red

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Speaker 2: Cross is going to come here soon. What did you

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Speaker 2: see at Ravensbrook, Right, you didn't see any genocide, did you?

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Speaker 4: And let me remind you this is a pinky swear. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 4: this is a pinky swear. Right.

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Speaker 2: You wouldn't break a pinky swear to Aikman, would you.

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Speaker 2: One of these women, Charlotte Salzberger required Eikman questioning her

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Speaker 2: in a very polite manner about the extermination. His fame

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Speaker 2: was such that even with that, he doesn't introduce himself

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Speaker 2: as Adolph Eichman. But he's famous enough that she guesses

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Speaker 2: who he is, right, She later says, quote, we knew

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Speaker 2: who Aikman was even in a holland. We knew he

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Speaker 2: was a man who used to a lot of Yiddish

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Speaker 2: and Hebrew expressions. And there was also a rumor that

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Speaker 2: he spoke Hebrew and was born in Sarona. This was

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Speaker 2: very clear from the way he spoke, right, because there

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Speaker 2: are rumors that he's basically Jewish, and that's why he

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Speaker 2: knows all this stuff.

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Speaker 4: Ah, yeah, right, right, he's had those servers for a

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Speaker 4: while now.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, he spent some time asking them inconsequential details about

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Speaker 2: their lives. Be like, well, well you have to you know,

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Speaker 2: how are you like? Try to be friendly, right, He's

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Speaker 2: he tries to be good cop before he pivots to

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Speaker 2: the bad cop part of his routine.

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Speaker 4: Quote, how was your weekend? How was your weekend? You know,

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Speaker 4: death camping?

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Speaker 2: This is a nice place, right, We got you some

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Speaker 2: chocolate last week, Right, everything's been good? Huh. After this,

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Speaker 2: he pivots to the bad cop part of his routine.

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Speaker 2: He told us we now had the right to go

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Speaker 2: to the Theresian stat ghetto, but if we said anything

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Speaker 2: about our experience in Ravensbrook, or about anything we knew,

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Speaker 2: then you will this was the phrase he used, be

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Speaker 2: going up the chimney. Ooh god, yeah, he's still our Reikman.

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Speaker 3: You know.

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Speaker 2: Within days of this, Eichman himself was in too Reasonstad

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Speaker 2: to prepare for what would be the last visit by

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Speaker 2: the International Committee of the Red Cross. So again, Eikman

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Speaker 2: is the guy who is show managing these Red Cross

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Speaker 2: visits at the camp.

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Speaker 4: While being internationally famous for murdering millions of people.

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Speaker 2: Yes, it's already known that he's doing a lot of this.

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Speaker 2: As I noted before, this was the Nice concentration camp.

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Speaker 2: Nazi propaganda describes treason stat as being located in a

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Speaker 2: SPA town where elderly juice could retire. Right, this is

251
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Speaker 2: a Spa. Basically, we're sending him to a fucking Spa.

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Speaker 2: You're calling us genocide.

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Speaker 4: Come on, everybody's gonna leave there with their hair all

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Speaker 4: redone and like you know, Veneer's in it.

255
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Speaker 2: It's the shit you saw with a Brago Garcia, where

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Speaker 2: they give him like water and a glass with salt

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Speaker 2: on their to be like he's drinking margaritas at El Salvador.

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Speaker 4: Come on.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, So some famous Jewish internees are kept there, but

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Speaker 2: the camp is also used as a transit camp for

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Speaker 2: Chech Jews on their way to the killing centers. So

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Speaker 2: this is not a nice place by any objective standards.

263
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Speaker 2: In nineteen forty two alone, so many people were dying

264
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Speaker 2: due to starvation and disease at Theresa Stat that the

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Speaker 2: Nazis built a crematorium capable of handling two hundred bodies

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Speaker 2: a day roughly. And again, this is the nice concentration camp.

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Speaker 2: Thirty three thousand Jews die into resent Stat itself, and

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Speaker 2: this is the nice place. Yes, I just I can't

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Speaker 2: exaggerate how bad all of this is. Even accounting for this,

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Speaker 2: the living conditions there are still better than everywhere else,

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Speaker 2: because Eichmann and his colleagues they don't want it nice

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Speaker 2: all of the time. But you've got to be able

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Speaker 2: to clean it up enough that at a moment's notice

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Speaker 2: you can take the authorities there, right, so it can't

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Speaker 2: get too bad.

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Speaker 4: I mean, the bar is so low in all of

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Speaker 4: the other camps. It doesn't have to be good at

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Speaker 4: Karisenstadta other than like, well they ate today.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, if we get the corpses out of here, it

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Speaker 2: looks okay, right, yeah. In early nineteen forty five, his

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Speaker 2: main concern was that rumors of the death camps had

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Speaker 2: percolated widely within the community of Jews being held there,

283
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Speaker 2: and Eikman did not want those rumors getting to anyone

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Speaker 2: at the Red Cross. And you can't make some of

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Speaker 2: this shit up. You want to guess what day they

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Speaker 2: pick for this Red Cross visit to teresen Stott.

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Speaker 4: April first April. You are literally right, yeah, I mean,

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Speaker 4: oh no.

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Speaker 2: April Day nineteen forty five is when Aikman personally meets

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Speaker 2: Red Cross representative Hans did Not and announces himself to

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Speaker 2: be quote the direct agent of the Reich's fewer ss

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Speaker 2: for all Jewish questions. They literally pick April Fool's day, right,

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Speaker 2: It's it's so fucked.

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Speaker 4: This is this is my least favorite thing I've ever

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Speaker 4: been right about, Thank you, Robert.

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Speaker 2: So as soon as Eichman meets with this guy, he

297
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Speaker 2: gives a kind of rambling diatribe about his theories are

298
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Speaker 2: the Jewish question and has now ended planned. He's like, yeah,

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Speaker 2: we're gonna make a reservation for these guys, you know,

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Speaker 2: like America did with the Native Americans. We're not going

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Speaker 2: to kill him.

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Speaker 4: Have you guys ever heard of Oklahoma? And we're gonna do.

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Speaker 2: That, right, Obviously, the United States killed a lot, we

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Speaker 2: did a genocide several of them against we. But the

305
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Speaker 2: average European wouldn't call what we did a genocide in

306
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Speaker 2: this stage, in part because the ward doesn't exist yet.

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Speaker 4: Right, to be fair, the average American today says, it's.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah, but this is the way this they're

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Speaker 2: trying to be Like, No, what we're doing is no

310
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Speaker 2: worse than what the Americans did, right, That's all that

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Speaker 2: we're trying to do here. And what's weird though, is

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Speaker 2: that Eikman also tells this guy, you know, Himmler supports

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Speaker 2: the humane treatment of Jews in Nazi custody, and I

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Speaker 2: don't entirely agree with my boss here, but I'm following orders, right,

315
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Speaker 2: so I'm keeping things nice too, which is such a

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Speaker 2: weird line for him to ride, being like, actually, Himmler

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Speaker 2: wants the Jews to be treated well, and I think

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Speaker 2: he's kind of crazy, but you know that's what I'm

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Speaker 2: doing anyway. It's such a weird line.

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Speaker 4: Imagine being told this is a Red crossworker by a

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Speaker 4: man where skull and cross boat.

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Speaker 2: Stolen Cross votes by literally Adolph Eikman. You're just like

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Speaker 2: rolling your eyes so fucking hard now. So I bring

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Speaker 2: this up to point out there's very little sign at

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Speaker 2: all that the Czar of the Jews has any plans

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Speaker 2: to flee from justice before the fall of the regime.

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Speaker 2: And this is one time where we have to give

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Speaker 2: Aikman credit for being a lot smarter than his colleagues,

329
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Speaker 2: because this is part of his tactic. Right. He's not dumb.

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Speaker 2: He's not. Actually it seems like, wow, he's either so

331
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Speaker 2: committed that he's ready to die. He's just trying to

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Speaker 2: kill as many guys as possible, or he's really stupid

333
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Speaker 2: for not trying to get his name off of stuff

334
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Speaker 2: and to get out what he's doing is actually smarter

335
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Speaker 2: than all of his colleagues. He knows your fault. You're

336
00:15:39,280 --> 00:15:41,960
Speaker 2: idiots for thinking you can escape this. Anyone at my

337
00:15:42,080 --> 00:15:44,200
Speaker 2: level is a fool for thinking that you can get

338
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Speaker 2: away I'm going to take I'm going to hide by

339
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Speaker 2: pretending to be the guy that I've been pretending to

340
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Speaker 2: be up until the last minute here, so that no one,

341
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Speaker 2: none of my colleagues expect that I am setting up

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Speaker 2: secret plans to get out right, But he is the

343
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Speaker 2: whole time where he's doing this. He is making plans.

344
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Speaker 2: He's getting fake identities printed, he's using like SS. The

345
00:16:05,760 --> 00:16:08,480
Speaker 2: SS has a printing press for fake IDs. He's getting

346
00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:11,560
Speaker 2: multiple fake IDs. He's making an exit plan with his

347
00:16:11,600 --> 00:16:13,880
Speaker 2: wife and with his dad to hide out in the

348
00:16:13,880 --> 00:16:17,320
Speaker 2: countryside under a new name, like in the last stages

349
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Speaker 2: of the war. He'd started laying the groundwork for his

350
00:16:20,400 --> 00:16:24,360
Speaker 2: escape months earlier, when he lied to close colleague Deeter Weislinsky,

351
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Speaker 2: who's a member of the SD and who would later

352
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Speaker 2: try to sell Iikman out to the Allies. Eichman knows

353
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Speaker 2: well Wasslinsky's a worm. He's going to sell me out

354
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Speaker 2: the instant he can, So he tells Weslnsky, you know,

355
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Speaker 2: I actually cut ties with my dad, my family years ago.

356
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Speaker 2: They don't believe in all this Nazi stuff as much

357
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Speaker 2: as I do, so I'm not even in touch with them. Anymore. Now.

358
00:16:42,840 --> 00:16:46,440
Speaker 2: The reality is Iikman's father is a committed fascist, right,

359
00:16:46,720 --> 00:16:49,520
Speaker 2: and Iikman's still close to his dad. But by doing this,

360
00:16:49,560 --> 00:16:51,640
Speaker 2: Weslnsky will tell the Allies, Oh, no, he wasn't really

361
00:16:51,680 --> 00:16:54,160
Speaker 2: in contact with his family, right, which is who he's

362
00:16:54,200 --> 00:16:57,600
Speaker 2: going to be relying on. Eikman would also. So there's

363
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Speaker 2: this guy, the Grand Mufti of Jerusalem, who's an Arab

364
00:17:00,640 --> 00:17:03,520
Speaker 2: nationalist and a Muslim leader with deep Nazi sympathies, and

365
00:17:03,560 --> 00:17:05,480
Speaker 2: he spins a lot of World War two hiding out

366
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Speaker 2: in the Third Reich, and he is super on board

367
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Speaker 2: the genocide. Ikeman lies a lot and pretends that he

368
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Speaker 2: and the Mufti are really close. They have nothing more

369
00:17:14,280 --> 00:17:17,000
Speaker 2: than like a passing connection, right. They're not actually that tight,

370
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Speaker 2: which isn't I'm not saying that to say that the

371
00:17:18,880 --> 00:17:20,960
Speaker 2: Mufti isn't The Mufti is a monster, right.

372
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Speaker 4: It seems like a real piece of shit.

373
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Speaker 2: He and Eikman don't know each other well, but Iikman

374
00:17:25,880 --> 00:17:28,480
Speaker 2: pretends they're close friends. And at the end of the

375
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Speaker 2: war he's telling Weslinsky and his other colleagues, I'm going

376
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Speaker 2: to flee to the Middle East. The Mufti's got my back.

377
00:17:33,560 --> 00:17:36,240
Speaker 2: I'm going to hide out somewhere like Syria, right, which

378
00:17:36,280 --> 00:17:39,480
Speaker 2: some guys in the SS do. And so when Wislinsky

379
00:17:39,560 --> 00:17:41,520
Speaker 2: starts being questioned by the Allies, he's like, oh no,

380
00:17:41,560 --> 00:17:44,000
Speaker 2: his family wouldn't hide him. They hated him. He's got

381
00:17:44,040 --> 00:17:46,680
Speaker 2: some connection with the Mufti. He's fleeing for the Middle East, right,

382
00:17:46,960 --> 00:17:49,000
Speaker 2: you got to start looking for him there or trying

383
00:17:49,040 --> 00:17:52,600
Speaker 2: to make his way there. Right. So Aikman has seated

384
00:17:52,800 --> 00:17:55,720
Speaker 2: a false story for his plans for the escape with

385
00:17:55,880 --> 00:17:59,280
Speaker 2: his colleagues in the SS, knowing they're all going to

386
00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,880
Speaker 2: rat on him. He wants them ratting and he wants

387
00:18:01,880 --> 00:18:03,119
Speaker 2: them giving up the wrong info.

388
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Speaker 4: Of course, he knows that they're pieces of shit. They're

389
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Speaker 4: in the SS.

390
00:18:06,880 --> 00:18:09,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, he works with these assholes. He knows how much

391
00:18:09,560 --> 00:18:10,080
Speaker 2: they suck.

392
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Speaker 4: You guys, stop doing loud with me. You're all fake

393
00:18:13,000 --> 00:18:13,800
Speaker 4: friends anyway.

394
00:18:14,080 --> 00:18:17,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, he knows they're fake friends. And you hate you

395
00:18:17,320 --> 00:18:19,119
Speaker 2: don't want to give it to a guy like Eichmann.

396
00:18:19,160 --> 00:18:22,360
Speaker 2: But he's really smart here. He knows like this is very,

397
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Speaker 2: very intelligent and it's going to work extraordinarily well.

398
00:18:26,000 --> 00:18:29,840
Speaker 4: Game recognized game. He knows what kind of pieces of Yes, well,

399
00:18:29,840 --> 00:18:30,800
Speaker 4: if he's one of them.

400
00:18:30,720 --> 00:18:34,480
Speaker 2: He's one of them. He's the worst of them, right. Yeah.

401
00:18:34,520 --> 00:18:37,360
Speaker 2: Through all of this, he vocally expounds upon his commitment

402
00:18:37,400 --> 00:18:39,840
Speaker 2: to the Nazi cause and the genocide he's orchestrating, so

403
00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:42,000
Speaker 2: no one will expect that he's planning to flee or

404
00:18:42,000 --> 00:18:44,480
Speaker 2: that he's been lying to them. He takes to posing

405
00:18:44,640 --> 00:18:48,000
Speaker 2: with guys like Himmler in pictures carrying his service revolver.

406
00:18:48,200 --> 00:18:50,080
Speaker 2: He didn't really needed to wear a gun. He starts

407
00:18:50,080 --> 00:18:52,400
Speaker 2: wearing it, being like, I'm an old fighter. I'm gonna

408
00:18:52,440 --> 00:18:55,520
Speaker 2: go down shooting. You know, when this ends, I'm gonna

409
00:18:55,520 --> 00:18:57,879
Speaker 2: die on the field, you know, in the last minute

410
00:18:57,880 --> 00:19:00,720
Speaker 2: that I can still loyal to the cause. In his

411
00:19:00,840 --> 00:19:03,760
Speaker 2: last meeting with his subordinates in Berlin, he told them,

412
00:19:03,840 --> 00:19:06,320
Speaker 2: if it has to be, I will gladly jump into

413
00:19:06,359 --> 00:19:08,840
Speaker 2: my grave and the knowledge that five million enemies of

414
00:19:08,840 --> 00:19:12,439
Speaker 2: the Reich have already died like animals. Right, He's telling them,

415
00:19:12,480 --> 00:19:14,879
Speaker 2: I'm happy to die because I killed five million people,

416
00:19:14,920 --> 00:19:18,280
Speaker 2: you know, so I can go out with my conscience clear.

417
00:19:18,840 --> 00:19:20,760
Speaker 2: Now this is a lie. He was committed to killing

418
00:19:20,800 --> 00:19:22,800
Speaker 2: those people, but he doesn't want to die. He's going

419
00:19:22,840 --> 00:19:26,520
Speaker 2: to do whatever he can to escape. So April first

420
00:19:26,640 --> 00:19:29,679
Speaker 2: is when the Red Cross visits treasonstat Hitler dies at

421
00:19:29,680 --> 00:19:32,040
Speaker 2: the very end of April, the same month that had

422
00:19:32,080 --> 00:19:34,560
Speaker 2: begun with that show tour. Peace and an end of

423
00:19:34,560 --> 00:19:36,919
Speaker 2: the war in Europe is not far behind. By the

424
00:19:36,920 --> 00:19:40,280
Speaker 2: point that Hitler kills himself, Eichman has already disappeared into

425
00:19:40,359 --> 00:19:42,800
Speaker 2: the mass of Nazi war prisoners under a new name.

426
00:19:42,840 --> 00:19:46,600
Speaker 2: He just bounces one day, destroys his old info, picks

427
00:19:46,680 --> 00:19:49,280
Speaker 2: up one of these fake IDs, and starts living under

428
00:19:49,320 --> 00:19:53,600
Speaker 2: a new name, Adolf Karl Barth. Now. His last order

429
00:19:53,640 --> 00:19:55,399
Speaker 2: that he had gotten as Eichman was given by his

430
00:19:55,520 --> 00:19:58,240
Speaker 2: childhood friend kalten Brunner, and kalten Berner had told him,

431
00:19:58,520 --> 00:20:01,480
Speaker 2: You're going to go and ca on this guerrilla struggle

432
00:20:01,480 --> 00:20:04,080
Speaker 2: in the Alps, right, We're gonna keep on fighting, you know,

433
00:20:04,119 --> 00:20:06,960
Speaker 2: in the mountains, will hold out to the last. And

434
00:20:07,040 --> 00:20:12,399
Speaker 2: Iikman's like, yeah, totally, absolutely, and then he just leaves

435
00:20:12,440 --> 00:20:15,240
Speaker 2: one day, shows up a new clothes and like gets

436
00:20:15,240 --> 00:20:18,840
Speaker 2: taken prisoner right as like a low ranking enlisted member

437
00:20:18,880 --> 00:20:22,000
Speaker 2: of the SS. So he gets put in a pow

438
00:20:22,119 --> 00:20:24,400
Speaker 2: camp with all of these thousands and thousands of other

439
00:20:24,480 --> 00:20:28,000
Speaker 2: low ranking SS guys. And while he's in the camp,

440
00:20:28,240 --> 00:20:31,439
Speaker 2: he actually transitions and destroys that old I D and

441
00:20:31,560 --> 00:20:35,040
Speaker 2: takes on yet another new ID. And there's a couple

442
00:20:35,040 --> 00:20:37,119
Speaker 2: of reasons for this, but he starts going by he

443
00:20:37,160 --> 00:20:40,360
Speaker 2: had been pretending to be Carl Barth, who's this enlisted

444
00:20:40,359 --> 00:20:43,000
Speaker 2: member of the SS, and he upgrades himself to an

445
00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:47,080
Speaker 2: officer to unterstorm fewer otto Eckman. Now, the logic of

446
00:20:47,080 --> 00:20:51,359
Speaker 2: this was both, first off, Barth pretty far off from Iikman.

447
00:20:51,680 --> 00:20:54,560
Speaker 2: If somebody recognizes me and calls out Aikman, I could

448
00:20:54,600 --> 00:20:57,439
Speaker 2: be like Ekman, Ekman, No, No, I'm Ekman. Yeah yeah, yeah, Akhmen.

449
00:20:57,520 --> 00:20:59,920
Speaker 2: That's gate right, it's smart, right, like it's it's close

450
00:21:00,440 --> 00:21:04,119
Speaker 2: that it won't draw suspicion if he responds to the

451
00:21:04,160 --> 00:21:07,040
Speaker 2: name Eichman or something. And the other reason that he

452
00:21:07,240 --> 00:21:10,040
Speaker 2: upgrades from being enlisted to a low ranking officer in

453
00:21:10,080 --> 00:21:12,720
Speaker 2: the SS is that as an officer, he doesn't have

454
00:21:12,760 --> 00:21:14,400
Speaker 2: to do labor on a daily basis.

455
00:21:14,800 --> 00:21:18,119
Speaker 4: I fucking knew it. I knew that was gonna happen.

456
00:21:18,600 --> 00:21:20,760
Speaker 4: I knew he was going to switch himself to be

457
00:21:20,840 --> 00:21:24,760
Speaker 4: either a Wehrmacht officer or an SS officer because no

458
00:21:24,920 --> 00:21:26,360
Speaker 4: labor and better treatment.

459
00:21:26,600 --> 00:21:29,880
Speaker 2: Yeah. And for the record, most of the SS, most

460
00:21:29,880 --> 00:21:33,120
Speaker 2: of the AST's GROUPA, even the officers, get off essentially

461
00:21:33,160 --> 00:21:35,879
Speaker 2: scott free after the war. Of course, I am of

462
00:21:35,960 --> 00:21:39,720
Speaker 2: the opinion we should have executed every member of the SS. Yeah, sure,

463
00:21:39,800 --> 00:21:42,760
Speaker 2: as well as every member of every person in government

464
00:21:42,760 --> 00:21:45,240
Speaker 2: in the Nazi state. There were so many more people

465
00:21:45,280 --> 00:21:46,639
Speaker 2: we should have killed that we didn't.

466
00:21:47,040 --> 00:21:50,760
Speaker 4: If you want to be embraced by something warm and nice,

467
00:21:50,880 --> 00:21:53,000
Speaker 4: just to know that most of the ones that fell

468
00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:55,360
Speaker 4: into Soviet captivity died horribly.

469
00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,080
Speaker 2: Yes, And in this case you do have to give

470
00:21:57,080 --> 00:21:59,080
Speaker 2: it to the Soviets, like the fact that we let

471
00:21:59,200 --> 00:22:01,160
Speaker 2: so many of these go off is why this kind

472
00:22:01,160 --> 00:22:02,639
Speaker 2: of shit keeps happening, Right.

473
00:22:02,960 --> 00:22:06,320
Speaker 4: Ninety nine percent of SS men got away with little

474
00:22:06,359 --> 00:22:08,480
Speaker 4: more than a slap on the wrist and a quote

475
00:22:08,520 --> 00:22:10,400
Speaker 4: unquote rehabilitation process.

476
00:22:10,600 --> 00:22:13,080
Speaker 2: If there had been another millionaire or two that had

477
00:22:13,119 --> 00:22:15,520
Speaker 2: been taken out by the Allies after this, because there

478
00:22:15,520 --> 00:22:18,959
Speaker 2: were that many who directly took part in the Holocaust,

479
00:22:19,119 --> 00:22:23,119
Speaker 2: they deserved more. You could have justified even more. Maybe

480
00:22:23,119 --> 00:22:25,639
Speaker 2: this wouldn't have kept happening, right, Maybe there would have

481
00:22:25,640 --> 00:22:28,400
Speaker 2: been enough of a warning, you know, but we don't.

482
00:22:28,440 --> 00:22:29,800
Speaker 2: We let most of these guys off.

483
00:22:29,920 --> 00:22:33,280
Speaker 4: Hey. And you know, once once you cut in, you know,

484
00:22:33,320 --> 00:22:35,879
Speaker 4: take away the clean behr Mokdabeth, you got a whole

485
00:22:35,920 --> 00:22:38,240
Speaker 4: lot of Germans achility. He'd still be all right with it,

486
00:22:38,359 --> 00:22:39,960
Speaker 4: and I know I would be, yeah.

487
00:22:39,960 --> 00:22:41,600
Speaker 2: And part of what's so fucked up here is that

488
00:22:41,760 --> 00:22:44,920
Speaker 2: like this shows how how soft we are on these guys.

489
00:22:44,960 --> 00:22:46,480
Speaker 2: The fact that just by being like, no, I'm an

490
00:22:46,600 --> 00:22:48,600
Speaker 2: SS officer, well, of course you don't have to labor

491
00:22:48,840 --> 00:22:51,000
Speaker 2: in the prisoner of war camp as an officer. Why

492
00:22:51,000 --> 00:22:53,080
Speaker 2: would we make an SS officer work? He did not

493
00:22:53,119 --> 00:22:55,200
Speaker 2: have this is done. He's a gentleman. You can't make

494
00:22:55,240 --> 00:22:56,119
Speaker 2: him do art labor.

495
00:22:57,480 --> 00:22:57,720
Speaker 4: Yep.

496
00:22:58,000 --> 00:23:01,320
Speaker 2: So you might expect were something like this out where

497
00:23:01,320 --> 00:23:03,919
Speaker 2: he's like shifting identities while in at POW camp to

498
00:23:03,960 --> 00:23:07,240
Speaker 2: be hard, but it really wasn't. His father outside the

499
00:23:07,240 --> 00:23:09,800
Speaker 2: camp is able to fetch these forged documents that he'd

500
00:23:09,840 --> 00:23:12,399
Speaker 2: squirreled away for him and smuggle them to him. And

501
00:23:12,560 --> 00:23:15,160
Speaker 2: because all of the central records in Breslau had been

502
00:23:15,200 --> 00:23:17,760
Speaker 2: destroyed at the end of the war, there's not a

503
00:23:17,760 --> 00:23:19,320
Speaker 2: lot of that no one can find out that this

504
00:23:19,359 --> 00:23:22,760
Speaker 2: guy wasn't real, right Eikman had made sure that Ekman's

505
00:23:22,760 --> 00:23:25,640
Speaker 2: birthday was exactly one year later than his, so it's

506
00:23:25,680 --> 00:23:27,840
Speaker 2: not hard to remember. He doesn't have to keep it

507
00:23:27,880 --> 00:23:29,919
Speaker 2: in his mind. It's his own birthday. It's just a

508
00:23:29,960 --> 00:23:32,800
Speaker 2: year later. You're just pretending you're a year younger. In

509
00:23:32,840 --> 00:23:34,879
Speaker 2: the immediate wake of the war's end, most of the

510
00:23:34,880 --> 00:23:37,520
Speaker 2: top players in the Nazi party, like Hitler, Himler, and

511
00:23:37,560 --> 00:23:40,720
Speaker 2: Gerbels were dead. Now Hermann Gering is in custody, along

512
00:23:40,760 --> 00:23:43,560
Speaker 2: with a handful of other Reich notables. By far, the

513
00:23:43,640 --> 00:23:46,600
Speaker 2: largest Nazi in the Wind at the war's end was Aikman,

514
00:23:46,880 --> 00:23:49,600
Speaker 2: who was noted by the Jewish Agency for Palestine as

515
00:23:49,640 --> 00:23:52,720
Speaker 2: being the highest ranking wanted Nazi as of June eighth,

516
00:23:52,800 --> 00:23:55,960
Speaker 2: nineteen forty five. So everyone is very aware. Everyone who

517
00:23:56,000 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 2: cares about the Holocaust is very aware. This Iikman guy

518
00:23:58,920 --> 00:24:01,639
Speaker 2: is a real big deal and he's in the Wind

519
00:24:02,040 --> 00:24:04,240
Speaker 2: and something needs to be done about it. Right, So

520
00:24:04,320 --> 00:24:07,640
Speaker 2: that is known from the jump, and there's a there

521
00:24:07,680 --> 00:24:09,639
Speaker 2: was a few Nazis that at the end of the

522
00:24:09,640 --> 00:24:12,680
Speaker 2: war they did just vanish, and people thought they could

523
00:24:12,720 --> 00:24:14,840
Speaker 2: have done a runner like everyone else. But yeah, then

524
00:24:14,880 --> 00:24:17,359
Speaker 2: they just came was like, I think Alfred Rosenberg is

525
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:18,000
Speaker 2: one of those guys.

526
00:24:18,040 --> 00:24:20,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, they're like, oh, they're just one of the

527
00:24:20,359 --> 00:24:23,600
Speaker 4: thousands of people who died in fighting and just namelessly

528
00:24:23,640 --> 00:24:25,520
Speaker 4: died on the soide of like a fucking dog.

529
00:24:25,680 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, beget the name of it. Yeah, there's

530
00:24:27,280 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 2: a lot of there are some hiring because like, yeah,

531
00:24:28,880 --> 00:24:31,280
Speaker 2: you were in Berlin at the end, and like it's

532
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:36,120
Speaker 2: not easy to get out, right, it's a pretty dangerous place, man.

533
00:24:36,720 --> 00:24:41,199
Speaker 2: So you know who didn't escape Berlin at the end

534
00:24:41,240 --> 00:24:46,200
Speaker 2: of nineteen forty five, Mitchubshi. That is right, they went

535
00:24:46,240 --> 00:24:49,679
Speaker 2: pretty far away from Berlin. Let's not talk about what

536
00:24:49,720 --> 00:25:00,639
Speaker 2: else Mitsubishi was doing. Oh god, no, So we're back,

537
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 2: Oh my goodness, just like Mitsubishi. You know, we're back,

538
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 2: and we're cleansed of whatever crimes that we were implicated

539
00:25:08,160 --> 00:25:11,720
Speaker 2: in previously. Right, all we made was engines, guys, Come on,

540
00:25:12,080 --> 00:25:15,480
Speaker 2: all ig Farban made was medicine and some other you know,

541
00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,520
Speaker 2: zyclone be a little bit, you know, not as that much,

542
00:25:18,800 --> 00:25:19,120
Speaker 2: just a.

543
00:25:19,119 --> 00:25:22,640
Speaker 4: Little bit, just a little bit. Look, I was all

544
00:25:22,680 --> 00:25:25,320
Speaker 4: on board with the Mitchibishi rehabilitation until they came out

545
00:25:25,320 --> 00:25:27,760
Speaker 4: with the Model seven thirty one as a little too

546
00:25:27,760 --> 00:25:29,480
Speaker 4: on the nose Jesus.

547
00:25:29,240 --> 00:25:34,760
Speaker 2: Christ, Oh, guys. So it had become clear by June eighth,

548
00:25:34,880 --> 00:25:36,960
Speaker 2: nineteen forty five that there are going to be war

549
00:25:37,000 --> 00:25:39,879
Speaker 2: crimes trials, and the World Jewish Congress asked later that

550
00:25:39,920 --> 00:25:41,720
Speaker 2: month for Aikman to be tried as one of the

551
00:25:41,760 --> 00:25:45,840
Speaker 2: main architects of the Holocaust. Since he was missing, Allied

552
00:25:45,880 --> 00:25:49,600
Speaker 2: prosecutors had to interrogate his former friends like Weslinsky, who

553
00:25:49,680 --> 00:25:51,680
Speaker 2: sang like a canary and blamed all of his own

554
00:25:51,720 --> 00:25:54,760
Speaker 2: crimes on Iikman. Right, he made me doet. I didn't

555
00:25:54,760 --> 00:25:57,240
Speaker 2: want to be in the SS. This is all Iikman.

556
00:25:57,480 --> 00:25:59,480
Speaker 2: What a dick. We all hate him, right.

557
00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:03,520
Speaker 4: Everybody would agree with me. Everybody hates him. You should

558
00:26:03,520 --> 00:26:06,679
Speaker 4: get him, Yeah, you should get him. I'm basically a victim.

559
00:26:06,680 --> 00:26:09,159
Speaker 4: He was so mean to me, like you don't even know.

560
00:26:10,080 --> 00:26:13,440
Speaker 4: So while Eichman is interned as Eckman, there were attempts

561
00:26:13,480 --> 00:26:16,240
Speaker 4: to catch hiding war criminals within the massive SS prisoners.

562
00:26:16,280 --> 00:26:19,080
Speaker 4: They allies know some of the big dudes are in

563
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,760
Speaker 4: this massive like prisoners that we got to get some

564
00:26:21,760 --> 00:26:23,440
Speaker 4: of them are hiding as Wehrmacht prisoners.

565
00:26:23,520 --> 00:26:27,560
Speaker 2: Right. He later recalled the days when quote Jewish commissions

566
00:26:27,560 --> 00:26:30,280
Speaker 2: would visit the camp. Quote, we had to line up.

567
00:26:30,359 --> 00:26:32,480
Speaker 2: They sized me up, yes, seeing if they could spot

568
00:26:32,560 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: any mugs they recognized. We had the lineup by company,

569
00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:37,320
Speaker 2: and there was a commission of maybe fifteen of these

570
00:26:37,359 --> 00:26:39,639
Speaker 2: And then he uses a slur. They went carefully up

571
00:26:39,640 --> 00:26:41,800
Speaker 2: and down the roads, staring each of us right in

572
00:26:41,800 --> 00:26:44,600
Speaker 2: the kisser, Yes, me too, right in the mug, all smiles.

573
00:26:44,760 --> 00:26:46,679
Speaker 2: We weren't allowed to speak, or we'd have called them

574
00:26:46,720 --> 00:26:48,880
Speaker 2: all kinds of names. And when they were done, two

575
00:26:48,920 --> 00:26:50,800
Speaker 2: steps forward and on to the next line.

576
00:26:51,440 --> 00:26:51,680
Speaker 4: Right.

577
00:26:52,160 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 2: And he recalls this later while he's like in fucking

578
00:26:55,440 --> 00:26:58,480
Speaker 2: Argentina with a sneering sort of arrogant glee that like

579
00:26:58,560 --> 00:27:00,879
Speaker 2: they had me, they were face to face with me

580
00:27:00,960 --> 00:27:05,560
Speaker 2: and they couldn't catch me. HAA. Now this is true

581
00:27:05,600 --> 00:27:07,600
Speaker 2: that he does get away, that he is like that

582
00:27:07,760 --> 00:27:10,280
Speaker 2: close to these guys and they miss him. But he's

583
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:13,760
Speaker 2: also he doesn't feel safe, right, He doesn't actually feel

584
00:27:13,840 --> 00:27:17,000
Speaker 2: like No, this is a very dangerous position for him.

585
00:27:17,480 --> 00:27:20,280
Speaker 2: Part of why is that the comradliness a lot of

586
00:27:20,280 --> 00:27:23,240
Speaker 2: these guys in the SS. No Ekman is in our company.

587
00:27:23,240 --> 00:27:25,159
Speaker 2: I don't remember there being an Ekman in our company.

588
00:27:26,320 --> 00:27:29,200
Speaker 2: This guy must There's something sketchy here, right.

589
00:27:29,240 --> 00:27:32,359
Speaker 4: And all these guys got captured together. They're probably in

590
00:27:32,600 --> 00:27:35,479
Speaker 4: units together. They probably didn't know each other all that

591
00:27:35,600 --> 00:27:38,000
Speaker 4: long due to you know, all the mass casualties, right,

592
00:27:38,119 --> 00:27:40,119
Speaker 4: but they were at least familiar with one another. And

593
00:27:40,160 --> 00:27:41,240
Speaker 4: now this guy comes in his.

594
00:27:42,320 --> 00:27:43,640
Speaker 2: It was this Ekman guy.

595
00:27:43,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 4: Was that guy your commander? He wasn't my commander.

596
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:49,200
Speaker 2: Do you remember Ekman being around? I don't remember. Ekman

597
00:27:49,560 --> 00:27:50,800
Speaker 2: sounds like Iikman a lot.

598
00:27:51,080 --> 00:27:53,159
Speaker 4: You know, he looks fucking familiar.

599
00:27:53,680 --> 00:27:56,639
Speaker 2: You know, in the war, these guys are all comrades.

600
00:27:56,680 --> 00:27:58,880
Speaker 2: We're all on the same side, right, and that com

601
00:27:58,960 --> 00:28:01,919
Speaker 2: radliness between not the burns up very quickly after the

602
00:28:01,920 --> 00:28:05,240
Speaker 2: regime falls and its crimes become impossible to deny. There

603
00:28:05,280 --> 00:28:07,680
Speaker 2: are enough soldiers in the camp who know that this

604
00:28:07,720 --> 00:28:10,160
Speaker 2: guy isn't who he says he was, and they don't

605
00:28:10,200 --> 00:28:14,159
Speaker 2: feel safe there, so Eikman begins to arrange his escape.

606
00:28:14,760 --> 00:28:16,760
Speaker 2: I want to be clear that Eikman's fame, which he

607
00:28:16,800 --> 00:28:20,280
Speaker 2: had aggressively cultivated, was the only reason that he was

608
00:28:20,320 --> 00:28:23,919
Speaker 2: in danger here. The Allies did not consider the Holocaust

609
00:28:23,920 --> 00:28:27,480
Speaker 2: a priority in terms of prosecution. During the Nuremberg Trial,

610
00:28:27,600 --> 00:28:31,480
Speaker 2: only one man was assigned to documenting and charging prisoners

611
00:28:31,520 --> 00:28:35,400
Speaker 2: over the genocide. Stagnath notes quote. The prosecution was also

612
00:28:35,480 --> 00:28:38,800
Speaker 2: cautious about placing too much emphasis on Jewish affairs for

613
00:28:38,840 --> 00:28:42,600
Speaker 2: fear of being criticized by their own countries. So during

614
00:28:42,680 --> 00:28:44,880
Speaker 2: Nuremberg we're like, oh, you don't want to do that

615
00:28:45,040 --> 00:28:48,440
Speaker 2: much Holocaust prosecuting, because then our own people might say

616
00:28:48,440 --> 00:28:51,040
Speaker 2: we're like being too soft on the Jews, that this

617
00:28:51,160 --> 00:28:53,520
Speaker 2: is all about the Jews to us, and like there's

618
00:28:53,560 --> 00:28:55,360
Speaker 2: still a lot of anti Semitism.

619
00:28:55,560 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 4: You're going around here just so fucking much.

620
00:28:58,680 --> 00:29:01,280
Speaker 2: And this had been part of what Roosevelt doesn't do

621
00:29:01,440 --> 00:29:05,000
Speaker 2: more prior to and during the war to save Jewish

622
00:29:05,000 --> 00:29:08,280
Speaker 2: people is consciously there are people in his administration they're like, yeah,

623
00:29:08,320 --> 00:29:10,280
Speaker 2: we didn't want to be seen as we didn't want this.

624
00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,040
Speaker 2: We were trying to work up. Getting America involved in

625
00:29:13,080 --> 00:29:16,320
Speaker 2: the war was hard, right, It was super controversial, and

626
00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,600
Speaker 2: it would have been bad for our effort to get

627
00:29:18,640 --> 00:29:20,480
Speaker 2: the US involved if we'd made it look like this

628
00:29:20,640 --> 00:29:23,320
Speaker 2: was all about the Jews. Because they're just not popular, right.

629
00:29:23,280 --> 00:29:26,280
Speaker 4: Yeah, and like similar to Churchill as well, Right, the

630
00:29:26,920 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 4: Nazis and Fascism were wildly popular within the British upper class,

631
00:29:31,880 --> 00:29:34,800
Speaker 4: to include the fucking king, all the way up until

632
00:29:34,800 --> 00:29:36,040
Speaker 4: they got dragged into the war.

633
00:29:36,560 --> 00:29:38,720
Speaker 2: And this is a thing where it's like in terms

634
00:29:38,720 --> 00:29:40,920
Speaker 2: of Roosevelt, it is like that you wouldn't want to

635
00:29:40,920 --> 00:29:43,160
Speaker 2: be in his position, where it's like, well, the right

636
00:29:43,160 --> 00:29:45,280
Speaker 2: thing to have done would have been to put the

637
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:48,600
Speaker 2: Holocaust first and foremost, but maybe that stops you from

638
00:29:48,640 --> 00:29:51,600
Speaker 2: being able to get involved as quickly. Maybe it cuts

639
00:29:51,600 --> 00:29:53,920
Speaker 2: the support you need to try and start to keep

640
00:29:53,960 --> 00:29:56,520
Speaker 2: getting arms to the UK. This is a hard I

641
00:29:56,560 --> 00:29:58,800
Speaker 2: don't think he makes the right option, but it's a

642
00:29:59,280 --> 00:30:02,360
Speaker 2: everyone is. It's oh shitty, right, It's such a difficult

643
00:30:02,400 --> 00:30:05,920
Speaker 2: position to be in where you're like, well, maybe doing

644
00:30:05,960 --> 00:30:08,560
Speaker 2: the right thing here makes it harder to actually beat

645
00:30:08,600 --> 00:30:10,640
Speaker 2: these guys, right, That's how they're thinking now. By the

646
00:30:10,720 --> 00:30:15,200
Speaker 2: time Nuremberg is happening, it's just cowardice, right, and lingering

647
00:30:15,240 --> 00:30:17,400
Speaker 2: anti Semitism on behalf of the Allies. So they're like,

648
00:30:17,480 --> 00:30:19,440
Speaker 2: we don't want to be seen as being you know,

649
00:30:19,840 --> 00:30:22,120
Speaker 2: is this all being about the Jews to us right.

650
00:30:23,920 --> 00:30:27,760
Speaker 2: So Weislinsky is the guy who gives most of the

651
00:30:27,800 --> 00:30:30,360
Speaker 2: testimony about Iikman that would become a central part of

652
00:30:30,400 --> 00:30:33,600
Speaker 2: Iikman's post war mythos as the architect of the Holocaust.

653
00:30:34,000 --> 00:30:37,479
Speaker 2: As we've stated, this is an exaggeration. Weslinsky makes Iikman

654
00:30:37,560 --> 00:30:40,800
Speaker 2: out to be a bigger player than he was because

655
00:30:40,840 --> 00:30:43,960
Speaker 2: he's trying to protect himself. The bigger Wislinsky's like, the

656
00:30:44,000 --> 00:30:46,800
Speaker 2: bigger a deal I make Iikman, the less likely they

657
00:30:46,800 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 2: are to kill me. And this does not work out

658
00:30:48,840 --> 00:30:52,040
Speaker 2: for Weslnsky. He is extra tited to Czechoslovakia and hanged

659
00:30:52,080 --> 00:30:55,840
Speaker 2: for war crimes in nineteen forty eight. So it doesn't work,

660
00:30:55,880 --> 00:30:58,040
Speaker 2: but it does create the myth. It does help really

661
00:30:58,080 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 2: bolster this myth in the public eye. Theodore Daniker, who

662
00:31:01,480 --> 00:31:04,560
Speaker 2: had been Eichman's right hand man, was smarter. He avoided

663
00:31:04,600 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 2: capture like his boss at the end of the war

664
00:31:06,680 --> 00:31:08,920
Speaker 2: until he was caught by the US Army in December

665
00:31:08,920 --> 00:31:11,960
Speaker 2: of nineteen forty five. He committed suicide in a prison

666
00:31:11,960 --> 00:31:13,520
Speaker 2: camp before he could go on trial.

667
00:31:14,280 --> 00:31:16,200
Speaker 4: He was almost certainly going to hang as well.

668
00:31:16,560 --> 00:31:18,560
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, yeah, he would have fucking hung He was

669
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,600
Speaker 2: just too big, too implicated, and too much. You know.

670
00:31:21,880 --> 00:31:25,280
Speaker 2: Unlike Westlinsky, he doesn't trick himself into believing he's got

671
00:31:25,360 --> 00:31:30,000
Speaker 2: a chance. Eikman proved remarkably successful as a fugitive, working

672
00:31:30,040 --> 00:31:32,320
Speaker 2: with a mix of a few former SS colleagues he

673
00:31:32,360 --> 00:31:34,920
Speaker 2: could trust and their family members. He hid out on

674
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,440
Speaker 2: a farm in northern Germany, while he lived in a

675
00:31:37,480 --> 00:31:40,400
Speaker 2: rustic college and engaged in a simple peasant life, working

676
00:31:40,400 --> 00:31:43,080
Speaker 2: basically as a forester. Right, he's doing like lumber work.

677
00:31:43,400 --> 00:31:46,160
Speaker 2: What remained of the Third Reich's leadership When on trial,

678
00:31:46,600 --> 00:31:49,840
Speaker 2: Eikman's name came up repeatedly in segments of Nuremberg that

679
00:31:49,920 --> 00:31:52,920
Speaker 2: dealt with the Holocaust. Weslinsky blamed his old boss for

680
00:31:52,960 --> 00:31:55,480
Speaker 2: being abusive and violent and basically was like, he threatened

681
00:31:55,480 --> 00:31:56,320
Speaker 2: me into doing it.

682
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,760
Speaker 4: Oh my god, shut up, you fucking bitch.

683
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:02,400
Speaker 2: Another mess man, I think his first name was Otto

684
00:32:02,480 --> 00:32:05,920
Speaker 2: Ollendorf entered into the record. Eikman's claimed that he would

685
00:32:05,960 --> 00:32:08,120
Speaker 2: leap laughing into the pit of hell because he'd killed

686
00:32:08,160 --> 00:32:10,800
Speaker 2: six million shows. Right, that's where we get that quote first,

687
00:32:10,920 --> 00:32:13,520
Speaker 2: is Ollendorf being like, that's how bad Aikman was.

688
00:32:13,640 --> 00:32:17,040
Speaker 4: He said this, you can just go get him still

689
00:32:17,520 --> 00:32:17,920
Speaker 4: not me.

690
00:32:18,720 --> 00:32:21,520
Speaker 2: And it's Gering is really the only member of the

691
00:32:21,600 --> 00:32:24,960
Speaker 2: Nazi high command who doesn't do what Weislnsky does, where

692
00:32:24,960 --> 00:32:27,200
Speaker 2: he's like trying to throw everyone under the bus. Right,

693
00:32:27,560 --> 00:32:31,200
Speaker 2: Gerring states while he's watching Westlinsky on trial, this Westlinsky

694
00:32:31,280 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 2: is just a little swine who looks like a big one.

695
00:32:33,600 --> 00:32:37,920
Speaker 2: Because Eikman isn't here, Ekman is no longer there either.

696
00:32:38,120 --> 00:32:40,880
Speaker 2: Three months after escaping the prison camp, Eikman is registered

697
00:32:40,960 --> 00:32:44,840
Speaker 2: under a new name, Otto Henninger. He just turned forty.

698
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:47,959
Speaker 2: He managed to stay employed, working for a lumber company

699
00:32:47,960 --> 00:32:51,000
Speaker 2: and lived alone, a thing Westlnsky told Allied interrogators his

700
00:32:51,080 --> 00:32:54,680
Speaker 2: boss could never do. Westlinsky says, anyone who knows Iikman

701
00:32:54,800 --> 00:32:57,400
Speaker 2: knows he's too cowardly to be alone. So we see

702
00:32:57,440 --> 00:33:01,000
Speaker 2: how well Eikman's cultivation of a fake per personality has

703
00:33:01,040 --> 00:33:06,320
Speaker 2: worked to protect him. He really lied to the right guys. Yeah, yeah,

704
00:33:06,360 --> 00:33:08,479
Speaker 2: it's it's unfortunate how good he is at this.

705
00:33:09,320 --> 00:33:13,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, it is impressive that he was able to hide

706
00:33:13,560 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 4: effectively and play the sights. And I do wonder if

707
00:33:16,840 --> 00:33:18,800
Speaker 4: he was oldly able to get away with this because

708
00:33:19,040 --> 00:33:21,160
Speaker 4: the people that I mean, of course he trusted some

709
00:33:21,320 --> 00:33:24,680
Speaker 4: SS men, but the people that knew him as this

710
00:33:25,400 --> 00:33:28,880
Speaker 4: fake person also kind of knew he was Iikeman.

711
00:33:29,360 --> 00:33:33,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, yeah. So by April of nineteen forty six,

712
00:33:33,840 --> 00:33:36,240
Speaker 2: his friend Calton Brunner had taken the stand and claimed

713
00:33:36,280 --> 00:33:38,680
Speaker 2: that Iikman was the man who carried out the whole

714
00:33:38,720 --> 00:33:42,880
Speaker 2: extermination operation against the Jews. Now again, Calton Bruner is

715
00:33:42,880 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 2: his boss. Calten Brunner brings him into the SS right,

716
00:33:46,280 --> 00:33:47,640
Speaker 2: it's he did it, full isshuit.

717
00:33:47,720 --> 00:33:50,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all him. Ah, he did it all by himself.

718
00:33:50,800 --> 00:33:52,000
Speaker 4: Was the craziest thing.

719
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:57,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was so fast. Now this was a massive exaggeration,

720
00:33:57,240 --> 00:33:59,960
Speaker 2: but it's one that sticks. Lying does not, however, say

721
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,320
Speaker 2: Calton Brunner. He's executed in October of forty six, but

722
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:06,680
Speaker 2: it serves to continue building the Aikman legend. Rudolph Hess,

723
00:34:06,720 --> 00:34:10,040
Speaker 2: former commandant at Auschwitz, adds to this legend by crediting

724
00:34:10,080 --> 00:34:12,640
Speaker 2: Eikman with helping to decide to use Ziklon beat to

725
00:34:12,680 --> 00:34:14,840
Speaker 2: gas inmates. We never would have come up with that

726
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:15,840
Speaker 2: idea without Iikman.

727
00:34:16,200 --> 00:34:16,759
Speaker 4: Yeah.

728
00:34:17,000 --> 00:34:19,440
Speaker 2: I was trying to make a summer camp until he

729
00:34:19,480 --> 00:34:20,160
Speaker 2: came around.

730
00:34:21,120 --> 00:34:22,960
Speaker 4: I was just trying to give people veniers.

731
00:34:23,239 --> 00:34:25,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, the only guy in.

732
00:34:25,360 --> 00:34:27,040
Speaker 1: This life Joe's obsession with me.

733
00:34:29,400 --> 00:34:30,480
Speaker 4: That's a health Boh.

734
00:34:33,960 --> 00:34:38,080
Speaker 2: Only Julius Striker, who is the Nazi propagandist. We've covered

735
00:34:38,160 --> 00:34:40,399
Speaker 2: him on this show and he gets executed for war crimes.

736
00:34:40,400 --> 00:34:42,520
Speaker 2: He's the only guy here to give an honest account,

737
00:34:42,560 --> 00:34:44,719
Speaker 2: being like, fuck it, I've never even heard of this dude.

738
00:34:44,760 --> 00:34:47,480
Speaker 2: Iikman's supposed to be the chief anti Semi. I'm the

739
00:34:47,560 --> 00:34:50,080
Speaker 2: chief anti Semi. I don't even know his name, right.

740
00:34:50,520 --> 00:34:53,960
Speaker 2: He's like offended the fuck this guy, But there's a

741
00:34:53,960 --> 00:34:56,319
Speaker 2: certain amount of respective. It's like, no, he knows he's

742
00:34:56,360 --> 00:34:58,560
Speaker 2: gonna die no matter what. At least he's not gonna

743
00:34:58,600 --> 00:35:01,399
Speaker 2: lie about it as he goes. He's committed to being

744
00:35:01,400 --> 00:35:03,600
Speaker 2: like he's just angry that Aikman's getting all of the

745
00:35:03,640 --> 00:35:04,919
Speaker 2: credit for the Holocaust.

746
00:35:05,520 --> 00:35:09,000
Speaker 4: I'm a piece of shit. Everybody knows about it so hard.

747
00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:12,719
Speaker 2: Why is he getting all the credit for sucking. While

748
00:35:12,719 --> 00:35:15,560
Speaker 2: the legend of Iikman takes shape, the real man used

749
00:35:15,560 --> 00:35:18,680
Speaker 2: his time in semi captivity to start writing his memoirs.

750
00:35:19,160 --> 00:35:21,880
Speaker 2: This is a bold move for a man who knows

751
00:35:21,920 --> 00:35:24,480
Speaker 2: he's going to be captured and tried at any minute,

752
00:35:24,560 --> 00:35:26,439
Speaker 2: or he could be. And it speaks to the fact

753
00:35:26,440 --> 00:35:28,880
Speaker 2: that Eikman is still very much a true believer and

754
00:35:28,960 --> 00:35:31,960
Speaker 2: he wants still to get credit for his work furthering

755
00:35:32,000 --> 00:35:35,160
Speaker 2: a great historic cause. He thinks, someday the worm will

756
00:35:35,200 --> 00:35:37,600
Speaker 2: turn again and will be seen as heroes. And I

757
00:35:37,680 --> 00:35:41,360
Speaker 2: have to document how cool I was during the war, right.

758
00:35:42,360 --> 00:35:46,160
Speaker 4: Real Stringer bell moments though, right, like are you taking notes? Tomal?

759
00:35:46,640 --> 00:35:50,239
Speaker 2: He's taking notes on a criminal on the Holocaust. So

760
00:35:50,360 --> 00:35:53,960
Speaker 2: while he's in hiding out, he reads voraciously about every

761
00:35:54,000 --> 00:35:56,880
Speaker 2: news article on the on the trials, and he documents

762
00:35:56,920 --> 00:36:00,160
Speaker 2: the Nazi genocide, cutting out mentions of his own name.

763
00:36:00,400 --> 00:36:03,800
Speaker 2: He's cutting out the articles that mention him and pasting

764
00:36:03,840 --> 00:36:07,360
Speaker 2: them into like a scrap book. Right while he's hiding

765
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:08,520
Speaker 2: as a forestry guy.

766
00:36:08,800 --> 00:36:11,240
Speaker 4: Now there's something off putting about him scrap booking.

767
00:36:11,480 --> 00:36:15,719
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's fucking scrap booking. He follows the growth

768
00:36:15,719 --> 00:36:18,400
Speaker 2: of his legend and the increasing obsession among different Jewish

769
00:36:18,440 --> 00:36:22,080
Speaker 2: organizations with finding him and bringing him to justice. Aside

770
00:36:22,080 --> 00:36:25,000
Speaker 2: from this, though, he lives a normal life. He even

771
00:36:25,040 --> 00:36:28,160
Speaker 2: attends a coworker's wedding in nineteen forty seven, where he's

772
00:36:28,200 --> 00:36:32,120
Speaker 2: photographed in this rural location, and the fact of it is,

773
00:36:32,440 --> 00:36:35,360
Speaker 2: if he'd stayed there forever, he might have lived the

774
00:36:35,400 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 2: rest of his life in isolation. But he doesn't want

775
00:36:38,160 --> 00:36:40,440
Speaker 2: to live in isolation. He wants to live with his

776
00:36:40,520 --> 00:36:43,359
Speaker 2: wife Sarah and raise his kids, and they're never going

777
00:36:43,440 --> 00:36:45,920
Speaker 2: to be able to do that. In Germany, Vera is

778
00:36:46,000 --> 00:36:49,320
Speaker 2: under constant surveillance. Right The Allys are watching her, figuring

779
00:36:49,600 --> 00:36:51,560
Speaker 2: he's going to reach out at some point and then

780
00:36:51,600 --> 00:36:55,359
Speaker 2: we'll catch him. Right. She is claiming at this point

781
00:36:55,360 --> 00:36:57,919
Speaker 2: that she divorced Eikman in March of nineteen forty five,

782
00:36:58,719 --> 00:37:01,839
Speaker 2: and she and Iikman's father tried to report him dead

783
00:37:01,880 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: in nineteen forty seven, claiming that they'd heard that he

784
00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:08,000
Speaker 2: died fighting in Prague. The Allies don't really buy this,

785
00:37:08,239 --> 00:37:10,239
Speaker 2: but you know that's kind of what they're attempting to do.

786
00:37:10,960 --> 00:37:14,160
Speaker 2: It's not fully clear when Eichmann makes the decision to

787
00:37:14,200 --> 00:37:17,280
Speaker 2: flee Europe for Argentina, but we know that he starts

788
00:37:17,280 --> 00:37:20,080
Speaker 2: the process of getting his paperwork in order in nineteen

789
00:37:20,160 --> 00:37:23,160
Speaker 2: forty eight. From pop culture alone. You're probably aware that

790
00:37:23,200 --> 00:37:26,399
Speaker 2: a lot of Nazis escaped into Argentina after the war,

791
00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:29,800
Speaker 2: and it's worth discussing why and how. The first reason

792
00:37:29,880 --> 00:37:32,720
Speaker 2: is that Argentina has a long tradition of hiring German

793
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:35,600
Speaker 2: military officers to train their soldiers. This is going on

794
00:37:35,840 --> 00:37:38,680
Speaker 2: way before World War Two, right, So there's a lot

795
00:37:38,680 --> 00:37:43,160
Speaker 2: of sympathy for Germany and for fascism in Argentina. Future

796
00:37:43,200 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 2: dictator Juan Peron of Argentina received training in Mussolini's Italy

797
00:37:47,640 --> 00:37:49,680
Speaker 2: while he was a young soldier, and it was attached

798
00:37:49,680 --> 00:37:52,440
Speaker 2: to the Italian Army from thirty nine to forty. The

799
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:57,480
Speaker 2: Argentine government was formally neutral but deeply sympathetic to Nazi Germany,

800
00:37:57,920 --> 00:38:00,600
Speaker 2: as was a sizable chunk of the Catholic Church. In

801
00:38:00,680 --> 00:38:04,600
Speaker 2: nineteen forty six, Cardinal Kagiano, the Bishop of Rosario and

802
00:38:04,680 --> 00:38:07,800
Speaker 2: leader of a far right anti communist Catholic Action group,

803
00:38:08,200 --> 00:38:13,080
Speaker 2: visited Pope Pius the Seventh. David Csarini writes quote, Kagiano

804
00:38:13,160 --> 00:38:15,960
Speaker 2: proposed to set up Upontifical Commission of Assistance that would

805
00:38:15,960 --> 00:38:19,760
Speaker 2: provide identification papers for displaced persons and refugees in Europe.

806
00:38:20,000 --> 00:38:24,760
Speaker 2: More precisely, Kagiano wanted to help anti communist fascists, Nazis

807
00:38:24,760 --> 00:38:27,600
Speaker 2: and their collaborators who are now on the run. So

808
00:38:27,719 --> 00:38:29,600
Speaker 2: Kagiato goes to the Pope is like, we have to

809
00:38:29,600 --> 00:38:34,239
Speaker 2: create a humanitarian commission to help refugees from Europe, you know,

810
00:38:34,280 --> 00:38:37,680
Speaker 2: get their documentation. And by refugees he means members of

811
00:38:37,719 --> 00:38:41,520
Speaker 2: the SS. Right, there's a chunk of the Vatican agrees

812
00:38:41,560 --> 00:38:45,080
Speaker 2: to this plan and becomes a major active player in

813
00:38:45,160 --> 00:38:49,240
Speaker 2: helping hundreds of SS war criminals escape. Right, that's the

814
00:38:49,239 --> 00:38:50,879
Speaker 2: the Vatican is doing this.

815
00:38:51,520 --> 00:38:53,600
Speaker 4: I mean, at least it's I can't think of anything

816
00:38:53,640 --> 00:38:56,560
Speaker 4: else the Vatican's ever done recently. So that's at least

817
00:38:56,560 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 4: they've seen the the Vatican Jesus normally they're on the

818
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:02,120
Speaker 4: up and up. Yeah.

819
00:39:02,480 --> 00:39:06,799
Speaker 2: Now, and this is key. Adolph Eichman escapes Europe with

820
00:39:06,960 --> 00:39:10,359
Speaker 2: the help of a Catholic cardinal who provides him with

821
00:39:10,440 --> 00:39:11,480
Speaker 2: the documents he.

822
00:39:11,480 --> 00:39:14,600
Speaker 4: Needs, with the permission from the Pope. Yeah.

823
00:39:14,719 --> 00:39:16,799
Speaker 2: Yeah, the cardinals working with at least some degree of

824
00:39:16,800 --> 00:39:19,879
Speaker 2: permission from the bo Beer. Now to escape, Iikeman also

825
00:39:19,960 --> 00:39:22,320
Speaker 2: has to enlist the services of a people smuggler, and

826
00:39:22,360 --> 00:39:24,640
Speaker 2: a people smuggler who had the personal approval of Wan

827
00:39:24,719 --> 00:39:29,880
Speaker 2: peron his identity papers were issued by Catholic Bishop Alois Houdahl,

828
00:39:30,040 --> 00:39:33,360
Speaker 2: who had appointed himself Protector of persecuted war refugees, a

829
00:39:33,440 --> 00:39:36,359
Speaker 2: term here that means Nazis who did the Holocaust. It

830
00:39:36,440 --> 00:39:39,280
Speaker 2: takes two years, but Iikman makes the journey to Argentina

831
00:39:39,360 --> 00:39:43,200
Speaker 2: safely in nineteen fifty. His family follows a short time after,

832
00:39:43,360 --> 00:39:45,840
Speaker 2: and they are soon living together, a fassimile of a

833
00:39:45,880 --> 00:39:49,000
Speaker 2: normal life with a few compromises. In light of his notoriety.

834
00:39:49,480 --> 00:39:51,640
Speaker 2: Vera had to call him Otto, and he had to

835
00:39:51,760 --> 00:39:54,799
Speaker 2: use a new name yet again, Ricardo Clement, But those

836
00:39:54,840 --> 00:39:56,919
Speaker 2: who knew him said that he used his real name

837
00:39:57,000 --> 00:39:59,279
Speaker 2: often enough with old comrades who were now made up

838
00:39:59,280 --> 00:40:03,360
Speaker 2: a sizeable ca unity in Argentina. Iikman described his own life.

839
00:40:03,160 --> 00:40:05,239
Speaker 4: The world's most cursed diaspora.

840
00:40:05,440 --> 00:40:10,520
Speaker 2: Yeah. Yeah, Nazi diaspora in Argentina. Yeah. Oh, and he's

841
00:40:10,560 --> 00:40:14,560
Speaker 2: like he's going by Aikman fairly often whenever he's around Germans.

842
00:40:14,640 --> 00:40:19,359
Speaker 2: It's not super hard to figure out this guy at all. Oh,

843
00:40:19,400 --> 00:40:22,920
Speaker 2: this guy Ricardo Clement, whose wife calls him Otto and

844
00:40:23,080 --> 00:40:25,880
Speaker 2: who goes by Iikman whenever he's drunk. I wonder if

845
00:40:25,880 --> 00:40:26,760
Speaker 2: he's eightolf Iikman.

846
00:40:27,440 --> 00:40:28,520
Speaker 4: That must be a different guy.

847
00:40:30,120 --> 00:40:32,360
Speaker 2: He lives a boucolic life in this period, though. He

848
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:34,960
Speaker 2: works for a hydro electric power station for a while,

849
00:40:35,000 --> 00:40:38,360
Speaker 2: and he leads survey missions deep into the mountains, exploring

850
00:40:38,400 --> 00:40:41,600
Speaker 2: on horseback and climbing mountains. He takes his two young

851
00:40:41,640 --> 00:40:44,120
Speaker 2: boys with him regularly and teaches them to hike and

852
00:40:44,200 --> 00:40:47,640
Speaker 2: fish and ride horses while he worked. That job eventually

853
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:49,680
Speaker 2: falls apart in the mid fifties, but he gets a

854
00:40:49,680 --> 00:40:54,160
Speaker 2: better one managing a rabbit farm. Right, there's a little

855
00:40:54,200 --> 00:40:58,720
Speaker 2: bit of like historical symmetry here. Heindrich Himmler before joining

856
00:40:58,719 --> 00:41:02,360
Speaker 2: the Nazi Party is a chicken farmer, right yeah yeah,

857
00:41:02,400 --> 00:41:06,360
Speaker 2: and Eichman after the war runs a rabbit farm. Meanwhile,

858
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,080
Speaker 2: while they're in Argentina, his wife gives birth to two

859
00:41:09,160 --> 00:41:12,200
Speaker 2: additional sons. He has to build a home with his

860
00:41:12,239 --> 00:41:14,759
Speaker 2: own hands for his newly expanding family to live in,

861
00:41:14,880 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: and they'd taken two dogs, a German shepherd on a dosin.

862
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,399
Speaker 2: In short, he lives the kind of calm, pleasant life

863
00:41:21,480 --> 00:41:24,800
Speaker 2: that his work had denied millions of European Jews. David

864
00:41:24,840 --> 00:41:28,080
Speaker 2: Cesarini writes relations within the family were much as in

865
00:41:28,120 --> 00:41:30,600
Speaker 2: any other His sons were good looking and sociable. There

866
00:41:30,680 --> 00:41:33,800
Speaker 2: was no shortage of girlfriends. Klaus had already been engaged

867
00:41:33,840 --> 00:41:35,640
Speaker 2: to a local girl and took him on and was

868
00:41:35,640 --> 00:41:38,080
Speaker 2: the first to marry, move out and bring grandchildren into

869
00:41:38,080 --> 00:41:41,440
Speaker 2: the family. But generational relations were not smooth. I've been

870
00:41:41,480 --> 00:41:44,840
Speaker 2: looked upon his sons as boorish, interested only in trivial pleasures.

871
00:41:45,120 --> 00:41:48,320
Speaker 2: They in turn, thought he was authoritarian. Klaus told journalists

872
00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:50,840
Speaker 2: in nineteen sixty six, you will not believe how strict

873
00:41:50,840 --> 00:41:52,840
Speaker 2: he was. Our old man was very strict.

874
00:41:53,840 --> 00:41:54,640
Speaker 4: You all believe this.

875
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:56,680
Speaker 2: But Adolf Eichman was kind of a dick as a

876
00:41:56,760 --> 00:41:58,239
Speaker 2: dad man.

877
00:41:58,320 --> 00:41:59,759
Speaker 4: My dad is a real nut.

878
00:42:00,120 --> 00:42:02,279
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, he's kind of a Nazi. If he gets

879
00:42:02,320 --> 00:42:02,840
Speaker 2: my drift.

880
00:42:03,280 --> 00:42:05,720
Speaker 4: My dad, Adelfhikman is a real Adulf Iikman.

881
00:42:06,000 --> 00:42:10,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, he's real Aikman character. So when Ceserini's book was

882
00:42:10,120 --> 00:42:12,799
Speaker 2: published in two thousand and four, his understanding was that

883
00:42:12,880 --> 00:42:15,680
Speaker 2: Eikman didn't talk politics with his kids and forbade them

884
00:42:15,680 --> 00:42:18,440
Speaker 2: from bringing anything about the family up outside of the house.

885
00:42:19,120 --> 00:42:22,640
Speaker 2: This is an exaggeration, to say the least. However, even

886
00:42:22,680 --> 00:42:26,200
Speaker 2: back then, before Stangnet's book, there was documentation of Eikman

887
00:42:26,280 --> 00:42:29,160
Speaker 2: writing on the war and his connections to other old Nazis.

888
00:42:29,480 --> 00:42:32,960
Speaker 2: Cesserini wrote quote his marginalia in works that fell into

889
00:42:32,960 --> 00:42:36,600
Speaker 2: the hands of investigators indicate that he remained an unrepentant Nazi.

890
00:42:36,840 --> 00:42:40,560
Speaker 2: For example, he took exception to Jerhalard Bolt's The Last

891
00:42:40,600 --> 00:42:43,040
Speaker 2: Days of the reich Chancellery because the author took an

892
00:42:43,080 --> 00:42:45,760
Speaker 2: anti Nazi line at one point in the book, Iikman

893
00:42:45,800 --> 00:42:48,479
Speaker 2: scrawled in the margins with swine like these, the war

894
00:42:48,600 --> 00:42:50,920
Speaker 2: was bound to be lost. On the end papers, he

895
00:42:51,000 --> 00:42:53,480
Speaker 2: jotted down his three line credo. It could all be

896
00:42:53,520 --> 00:42:57,839
Speaker 2: summed up as duty and obedience to orders Christ. One

897
00:42:57,880 --> 00:43:00,920
Speaker 2: good friend post war was the former SA Special Forces

898
00:43:00,920 --> 00:43:04,520
Speaker 2: commando Otto Skorzeni, who introduced him to a Waffen SS

899
00:43:04,600 --> 00:43:07,919
Speaker 2: veteran named William Sassin, who'd himself been tried for war

900
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:11,279
Speaker 2: crimes and absentia. These men helped to induct Aikman into

901
00:43:11,320 --> 00:43:14,759
Speaker 2: a community of unrepentant fascists, and Eichman leaned into the

902
00:43:14,840 --> 00:43:18,240
Speaker 2: reputation he decrued as the architect of the Holocaust. Among

903
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:22,000
Speaker 2: these friends, it was an asset again Eikman and other

904
00:43:22,080 --> 00:43:24,640
Speaker 2: Nazis of the Sassin set felt no need to hide

905
00:43:24,680 --> 00:43:27,799
Speaker 2: their opinions from the world. Sassin starts editing a far

906
00:43:27,920 --> 00:43:31,600
Speaker 2: right German language newspaper Der Veg, which was so fascist

907
00:43:31,680 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 2: that Perne's government eventually suspends it from open publication. Right,

908
00:43:35,760 --> 00:43:38,239
Speaker 2: that's how bad this is when they get heat internationally.

909
00:43:38,719 --> 00:43:41,479
Speaker 2: And it was Sassin who introduced Aikman to the only

910
00:43:41,520 --> 00:43:45,800
Speaker 2: other Nazi immigrae at his level of notoriety, doctor Joseph Mengela.

911
00:43:46,400 --> 00:43:50,040
Speaker 2: Evidently the two did not get along. Aikman's frustrated because

912
00:43:50,040 --> 00:43:52,879
Speaker 2: Mengela has got family money, so he's still rich while

913
00:43:52,880 --> 00:43:56,040
Speaker 2: he's hiding. Well, Iikeman, they're like kind of poor while

914
00:43:56,080 --> 00:43:58,359
Speaker 2: they're while they're hiding out in Argentina, they're not like

915
00:43:58,560 --> 00:44:01,319
Speaker 2: super comfortable. And he's like, why does Mengela get to

916
00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:03,800
Speaker 2: have money? You know, I suck just as bad.

917
00:44:04,239 --> 00:44:06,000
Speaker 4: My family did build tractors.

918
00:44:06,680 --> 00:44:10,000
Speaker 2: He also, this is this is so funny Mengola, and

919
00:44:10,080 --> 00:44:11,879
Speaker 2: this is kind of like Mengoa is being a dick

920
00:44:11,920 --> 00:44:13,480
Speaker 2: to ike when he's like, well, you know, if you

921
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:15,319
Speaker 2: guys are having trouble with money, I can be your

922
00:44:15,360 --> 00:44:22,359
Speaker 2: family doctor for free, and Iikeman declines, I've seen your work.

923
00:44:22,360 --> 00:44:23,080
Speaker 4: I'm not a fan.

924
00:44:24,000 --> 00:44:26,600
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't think doctor Mengelea is gonna be the

925
00:44:26,640 --> 00:44:27,440
Speaker 2: family doctor.

926
00:44:28,280 --> 00:44:31,000
Speaker 4: Oh at all. It seems that your daughter has a

927
00:44:31,000 --> 00:44:33,480
Speaker 4: bit of a cough. Have you considered injecting bleach into

928
00:44:33,520 --> 00:44:33,960
Speaker 4: her eyes?

929
00:44:34,080 --> 00:44:37,880
Speaker 2: Yeah? Yeah, it's so funny. It's so funny too that

930
00:44:37,880 --> 00:44:40,040
Speaker 2: that Mengeli does that as kind of like a dick move.

931
00:44:40,080 --> 00:44:41,520
Speaker 2: He's like, well, if you're having trouble with money, I

932
00:44:41,520 --> 00:44:43,520
Speaker 2: can be the fan. Like he knows what it means

933
00:44:43,719 --> 00:44:45,480
Speaker 2: to offer to be the family doctor.

934
00:44:45,680 --> 00:44:48,919
Speaker 4: He knows nobody wants him to be the family doctor. Yeah. Yeah.

935
00:44:49,040 --> 00:44:50,760
Speaker 4: The man just smells like corpse.

936
00:44:51,120 --> 00:44:54,759
Speaker 2: Yeah, he knows he's Joseph Mengola.

937
00:44:55,280 --> 00:44:55,400
Speaker 4: So.

938
00:44:55,560 --> 00:44:58,719
Speaker 2: Sassin had been a military propagandist during the war, and

939
00:44:58,800 --> 00:45:02,120
Speaker 2: he wrote ghost wrote after the war. He ghostwrites biographies

940
00:45:02,160 --> 00:45:05,400
Speaker 2: for several SS veterans. He proposed working with Eichman to

941
00:45:05,480 --> 00:45:08,080
Speaker 2: lay out a full history of the Final Solution, one

942
00:45:08,080 --> 00:45:11,640
Speaker 2: that told the Nazi truth. Sassin meant to minimize the

943
00:45:11,719 --> 00:45:13,880
Speaker 2: number of people who had been killed and a clans

944
00:45:13,960 --> 00:45:16,839
Speaker 2: Germany of its war guilt over the Holocaust. He also

945
00:45:16,920 --> 00:45:21,719
Speaker 2: wanted to clear Hitler's name. Eikman has Let's say different ambitions,

946
00:45:21,960 --> 00:45:24,960
Speaker 2: and the result of their interviews was, in Cserini's words,

947
00:45:25,200 --> 00:45:28,640
Speaker 2: sometimes blackly comic. And I'm going to quote from Csserini's

948
00:45:28,640 --> 00:45:32,440
Speaker 2: book Eichman, His Life in Crimes here. Eikman initially welcomed

949
00:45:32,480 --> 00:45:34,600
Speaker 2: the chance to unburden himself to someone who was both

950
00:45:34,680 --> 00:45:38,200
Speaker 2: knowledgeable and supposedly sympathetic. I was happy to be able

951
00:45:38,200 --> 00:45:40,360
Speaker 2: for once to talk about the whole complex matter and

952
00:45:40,360 --> 00:45:42,920
Speaker 2: to some extent, dispose of it. But he discovered that

953
00:45:42,960 --> 00:45:45,200
Speaker 2: Sassin had a perspective that was not wholly in accord

954
00:45:45,200 --> 00:45:47,080
Speaker 2: with his own. While he was happy to record that

955
00:45:47,120 --> 00:45:50,319
Speaker 2: Hydrich had received a fewer order to exterminate the Jews,

956
00:45:50,360 --> 00:45:53,520
Speaker 2: Sassin questioned whether Hitler was truly responsible and wanted hard

957
00:45:53,520 --> 00:45:56,600
Speaker 2: evidence for such a directive. At one point, Eikman expressed

958
00:45:56,600 --> 00:45:59,320
Speaker 2: incredulity that anyone would expect there to be a written

959
00:45:59,400 --> 00:46:02,440
Speaker 2: order from Hitler himself, protesting that that was not how

960
00:46:02,480 --> 00:46:05,439
Speaker 2: the Reich worked. Where Assassin wanted to diminish the number

961
00:46:05,480 --> 00:46:07,560
Speaker 2: of Jews to ported to the death camps, Aikman was

962
00:46:07,600 --> 00:46:10,640
Speaker 2: happy to brag about his achievements. At Sassin's insistence, the

963
00:46:10,680 --> 00:46:13,600
Speaker 2: dialogue returned again and again to statistical assessments of the

964
00:46:13,680 --> 00:46:17,319
Speaker 2: numbers killed, with Sassin and Eikman arguing in opposite directions.

965
00:46:17,800 --> 00:46:20,720
Speaker 2: The wine consumed during the sessions loocid, to Eikman's tongue,

966
00:46:20,719 --> 00:46:22,759
Speaker 2: more than was good for him. His self pity and

967
00:46:22,760 --> 00:46:26,719
Speaker 2: self aggrandizing equally led to incriminating statements. He regretted his

968
00:46:26,760 --> 00:46:29,320
Speaker 2: weakness in not being able to overcome the obstacles in

969
00:46:29,360 --> 00:46:32,120
Speaker 2: the way of eliminating all the Jews impervious, or in

970
00:46:32,200 --> 00:46:34,120
Speaker 2: caring as to what the transports meant in terms of

971
00:46:34,160 --> 00:46:38,160
Speaker 2: human suffering. He lamented delays and rejoiced in trouble free deportations.

972
00:46:38,480 --> 00:46:40,360
Speaker 2: We had the same thing in Slovakia. We had the

973
00:46:40,400 --> 00:46:43,880
Speaker 2: same thing in France, and although it started there very hopefully,

974
00:46:44,000 --> 00:46:46,400
Speaker 2: we had the same thing in Holland, where the transports did, however,

975
00:46:46,480 --> 00:46:48,719
Speaker 2: roll at the beginning, so that one can say it

976
00:46:48,800 --> 00:46:52,240
Speaker 2: was magnificent, and where subsequently there was one problem after another.

977
00:46:52,600 --> 00:46:55,520
Speaker 2: He remembered with satisfaction the times the deportations went well,

978
00:46:55,680 --> 00:46:59,719
Speaker 2: notably in Hungary. So that's so Sassin's like, like, Hitler

979
00:46:59,760 --> 00:47:02,360
Speaker 2: wasn't involved. Do you have any evidence that Hitler ordered it?

980
00:47:02,360 --> 00:47:04,799
Speaker 2: And I was like, you don't understand how this fucking worked. Like,

981
00:47:05,080 --> 00:47:06,319
Speaker 2: what the fuck is wrong with you?

982
00:47:06,560 --> 00:47:08,719
Speaker 4: I don't think that many people died. I would have

983
00:47:08,800 --> 00:47:09,319
Speaker 4: killed more.

984
00:47:09,880 --> 00:47:12,759
Speaker 1: I do like that the reason like I couldn't hold

985
00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:13,719
Speaker 1: his wy.

986
00:47:13,960 --> 00:47:19,080
Speaker 4: No no light. Yeah he was a lightweight and got

987
00:47:19,120 --> 00:47:21,200
Speaker 4: really moody afterwards.

988
00:47:21,400 --> 00:47:23,440
Speaker 3: Yeah he drank wine, got a little weird.

989
00:47:24,400 --> 00:47:26,440
Speaker 2: You know who also gets a little weird whenever they're

990
00:47:26,480 --> 00:47:27,200
Speaker 2: drinking wine.

991
00:47:27,960 --> 00:47:28,600
Speaker 1: Mitsubishi.

992
00:47:30,000 --> 00:47:32,600
Speaker 2: Boy, you do not want to get Mitsubishi drunk. They'll

993
00:47:32,640 --> 00:47:35,160
Speaker 2: start talking about the forties and it doesn't go well,

994
00:47:37,160 --> 00:47:39,399
Speaker 2: We'll take your money Mitsubishi. Please, for the love of God,

995
00:47:46,440 --> 00:47:49,920
Speaker 2: we're back and we just got reached out to by Mitsubishi. Uh,

996
00:47:49,960 --> 00:47:51,400
Speaker 2: and this is very good. I think this is going

997
00:47:51,440 --> 00:47:54,720
Speaker 2: to be really positive for the whole podcast. They stated, quote,

998
00:47:54,800 --> 00:47:57,239
Speaker 2: if you continue referencing our name, we will bring you

999
00:47:57,280 --> 00:48:01,240
Speaker 2: into court. So yeah, very excited. U super psyched.

1000
00:48:01,880 --> 00:48:02,360
Speaker 1: Uh huh?

1001
00:48:02,640 --> 00:48:04,560
Speaker 4: This and more in Wake Island Drift.

1002
00:48:04,880 --> 00:48:11,000
Speaker 2: Yeah so Iikman's post war friendships all have one thing

1003
00:48:11,040 --> 00:48:14,360
Speaker 2: in common, his utterly repentant openness about the scale of

1004
00:48:14,400 --> 00:48:17,839
Speaker 2: crimes he'd committed. He told one Dutch Nazi immigray to

1005
00:48:17,880 --> 00:48:19,879
Speaker 2: be frank with you, had we killed all of them,

1006
00:48:19,920 --> 00:48:22,560
Speaker 2: the ten point three million European Jews. I would be

1007
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,440
Speaker 2: happy and say, all right, we managed to destroy an enemy.

1008
00:48:26,719 --> 00:48:30,600
Speaker 2: So you know, he continues to be iikman.

1009
00:48:31,000 --> 00:48:32,160
Speaker 4: Yeah he's still a piece of shit.

1010
00:48:32,480 --> 00:48:34,640
Speaker 1: Yeah, still a fucking Nazi assle.

1011
00:48:35,000 --> 00:48:35,400
Speaker 4: Oh h.

1012
00:48:36,560 --> 00:48:39,440
Speaker 2: Now, Ricardo Clement lives with his wife and sons outside

1013
00:48:39,440 --> 00:48:42,200
Speaker 2: of Buenos Aires for almost a decade. As I noted earlier,

1014
00:48:42,239 --> 00:48:45,160
Speaker 2: his boorish sons grew up there and began dating. One

1015
00:48:45,160 --> 00:48:47,279
Speaker 2: of them started seeing a young girl who was also

1016
00:48:47,360 --> 00:48:51,319
Speaker 2: a German immigray, Sylvia Hermann. Now you might think this

1017
00:48:51,360 --> 00:48:53,600
Speaker 2: would make the two a good match, but there was

1018
00:48:53,640 --> 00:48:58,560
Speaker 2: a problem. Sylvia's family were the other type of European immigray. Right.

1019
00:48:58,880 --> 00:49:02,000
Speaker 2: Her father, Lothar, hadn't informed her of this, but he

1020
00:49:02,120 --> 00:49:06,120
Speaker 2: was a Holocaust survivor who had fled Europe after surviving docow.

1021
00:49:06,719 --> 00:49:10,560
Speaker 4: Now, oh, this is the world's worst fucking Hallmark movie.

1022
00:49:10,680 --> 00:49:16,000
Speaker 2: Fuck You're the worst Meet cute. By this point, Lothar

1023
00:49:16,200 --> 00:49:18,920
Speaker 2: was old and blind as a result of repeated beatings

1024
00:49:18,960 --> 00:49:22,319
Speaker 2: by the Gestapo. As his daughter courted this eikman boy,

1025
00:49:22,600 --> 00:49:26,320
Speaker 2: Lothar starts putting things together in his head and is like, oh, fuck,

1026
00:49:26,719 --> 00:49:28,680
Speaker 2: I think this kid might be the son of like

1027
00:49:28,719 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: a major war criminal. Right now, these are initially just suspicions,

1028
00:49:34,760 --> 00:49:37,600
Speaker 2: and the family moves away from the area not long afterwards.

1029
00:49:37,640 --> 00:49:40,279
Speaker 2: So Lothar doesn't think a lot more about this until

1030
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,600
Speaker 2: nineteen fifty seven when he comes across news coverage of

1031
00:49:43,640 --> 00:49:46,439
Speaker 2: another Nazi back in Frankfurt. And I'm going to quote

1032
00:49:46,440 --> 00:49:48,680
Speaker 2: from an article by the Museum of Jewish Heritage here.

1033
00:49:49,239 --> 00:49:52,200
Speaker 2: Lothar's realization that Ricardo Clement may in fact be Adolf

1034
00:49:52,280 --> 00:49:55,000
Speaker 2: Eichman led him to the chief prosecutor of the West

1035
00:49:55,040 --> 00:49:58,600
Speaker 2: German state, Hessen Fritz Bauer, in order to pursue Eikman

1036
00:49:58,640 --> 00:50:02,040
Speaker 2: and make a case for investigation. Bauer needed evidence. Bauer,

1037
00:50:02,040 --> 00:50:05,279
Speaker 2: who acted outside his official role as chief prosecutor, was

1038
00:50:05,280 --> 00:50:08,560
Speaker 2: concerned that his colleagues were Nazi sympathizers and would thwart

1039
00:50:08,560 --> 00:50:11,840
Speaker 2: the investigation. At Bauer's request, Lothar went in search of

1040
00:50:11,880 --> 00:50:15,160
Speaker 2: more details regarding Eikman. Soon enough, Lothar was able to

1041
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:18,600
Speaker 2: positively identify Iikman, sending good word back to Bauer. So

1042
00:50:19,600 --> 00:50:22,759
Speaker 2: fucking Lothar is like, well, this German prosecutor has been

1043
00:50:22,800 --> 00:50:24,920
Speaker 2: prosecuting Nazi war criminals. I'll reach out to him and

1044
00:50:24,920 --> 00:50:28,040
Speaker 2: say I think I know Aikman. Bauer's like, I can't

1045
00:50:28,040 --> 00:50:30,680
Speaker 2: do this as part of my legal job. There's so

1046
00:50:30,800 --> 00:50:34,040
Speaker 2: many fucking Nazis still in the German state. They'll warn him.

1047
00:50:34,160 --> 00:50:37,520
Speaker 2: If anyone becomes aware in Germany that I'm looking for Aikman,

1048
00:50:37,800 --> 00:50:41,400
Speaker 2: he'll get warned because again I'm surrounded by Nazis still.

1049
00:50:41,800 --> 00:50:44,439
Speaker 4: So the ally should have killed way more of my code,

1050
00:50:44,840 --> 00:50:46,120
Speaker 4: so many more of these guys.

1051
00:50:46,840 --> 00:50:50,719
Speaker 2: So Bauer is like, basically he once he gets like

1052
00:50:50,920 --> 00:50:56,480
Speaker 2: confirmation from this dude in Argentina, Bauer rather than like

1053
00:50:56,560 --> 00:50:59,880
Speaker 2: going after going through the German government to try to

1054
00:51:00,000 --> 00:51:01,920
Speaker 2: prosecute this guy, He's going to go directly to the

1055
00:51:01,960 --> 00:51:05,440
Speaker 2: massade because he's like, again, I'm surrounded by Nazis and

1056
00:51:05,760 --> 00:51:08,839
Speaker 2: this is not an uncommon state of affairs. Post War

1057
00:51:08,920 --> 00:51:11,600
Speaker 2: West Germany talked a great game about war guilt and

1058
00:51:11,680 --> 00:51:14,480
Speaker 2: hatred of the regime, but a ton of second and

1059
00:51:14,520 --> 00:51:17,000
Speaker 2: third tier Nazis were by now running the show.

1060
00:51:17,440 --> 00:51:18,600
Speaker 4: Oh fuck yeah they were.

1061
00:51:19,520 --> 00:51:21,880
Speaker 2: And one of the people responsible for this is a

1062
00:51:21,920 --> 00:51:25,920
Speaker 2: famous anti Nazi Conrad Eidenhauer and Aidenauer had been he'd

1063
00:51:25,960 --> 00:51:28,520
Speaker 2: been an opponent of the party prior to Hitler's rise

1064
00:51:28,560 --> 00:51:31,280
Speaker 2: to total power, and he had been imprisoned several times

1065
00:51:31,280 --> 00:51:34,759
Speaker 2: by the Nazis. But he was like a liberal politician

1066
00:51:34,800 --> 00:51:38,080
Speaker 2: who hated the Nazis but was willing to govern beside them,

1067
00:51:38,200 --> 00:51:39,160
Speaker 2: right and.

1068
00:51:39,239 --> 00:51:41,719
Speaker 4: Well, well, well if it isn't the consequences of my

1069
00:51:41,760 --> 00:51:43,600
Speaker 4: political ideology.

1070
00:51:43,360 --> 00:51:46,799
Speaker 2: Right, And the good news is that Aidenauer was such

1071
00:51:46,840 --> 00:51:49,839
Speaker 2: a committed anti Nazi that the Allies let him form

1072
00:51:49,880 --> 00:51:52,400
Speaker 2: a government and become West Germany's first chancellor in nineteen

1073
00:51:52,440 --> 00:51:54,920
Speaker 2: forty nine. The bad news is that because he was

1074
00:51:54,960 --> 00:51:58,239
Speaker 2: such a committed anti Nazi, he was able to personally

1075
00:51:58,280 --> 00:52:00,719
Speaker 2: accept a ton of Nazis into his guyver and his

1076
00:52:00,840 --> 00:52:03,920
Speaker 2: own reputation acted as a shield for them, per the

1077
00:52:03,960 --> 00:52:07,360
Speaker 2: Irish Times quote. Challenged on this many times by political

1078
00:52:07,440 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 2: rivals and foreign critics, Aid and Hour hit back that

1079
00:52:10,280 --> 00:52:12,359
Speaker 2: one does not have to throw out the dirty water

1080
00:52:12,440 --> 00:52:14,440
Speaker 2: as long as one doesn't have any clean water.

1081
00:52:14,760 --> 00:52:14,960
Speaker 4: Right.

1082
00:52:15,440 --> 00:52:17,880
Speaker 2: Well, everybody who knows how to run the state is

1083
00:52:17,960 --> 00:52:21,719
Speaker 2: so implicated in Nazism we can't afford to punish them all.

1084
00:52:21,760 --> 00:52:23,360
Speaker 2: Otherwise we won't be able to have a Germany. And

1085
00:52:23,400 --> 00:52:24,600
Speaker 2: we got to have a Germany.

1086
00:52:24,680 --> 00:52:28,880
Speaker 4: Right. Uh, counterpoint, what if we didn't.

1087
00:52:29,200 --> 00:52:32,600
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now, in nineteen fifty seven, Eikman had actually written

1088
00:52:32,600 --> 00:52:35,719
Speaker 2: an open letter under his own name to Aidenauer, right,

1089
00:52:36,120 --> 00:52:38,560
Speaker 2: and the letter was negative. He and Sassen both wanted

1090
00:52:38,600 --> 00:52:41,680
Speaker 2: to destroy Conrad's government. But it shows how much impunity

1091
00:52:41,719 --> 00:52:43,480
Speaker 2: he felt by this point that he could write a

1092
00:52:43,600 --> 00:52:46,839
Speaker 2: letter to the fucking chancellor right and feel like it

1093
00:52:46,880 --> 00:52:50,360
Speaker 2: was not a super dangerous thing now since he couldn't

1094
00:52:50,360 --> 00:52:54,000
Speaker 2: trust his colleagues anymore, but did trust Lothar snooping our boy.

1095
00:52:54,040 --> 00:52:56,760
Speaker 2: Bauer sent the information about Eikman back to the Masad,

1096
00:52:56,960 --> 00:52:59,120
Speaker 2: who had a whole Nazi hunting division at this point,

1097
00:52:59,239 --> 00:53:01,960
Speaker 2: and we're ready to use it. In May of nineteen sixty,

1098
00:53:02,000 --> 00:53:05,400
Speaker 2: they sent eleven agents to Argentina after weeks of gumshoe

1099
00:53:05,400 --> 00:53:08,040
Speaker 2: work to track Iikman down and case his home in

1100
00:53:08,080 --> 00:53:10,560
Speaker 2: the pattern of his daily life, they launched an operation

1101
00:53:10,640 --> 00:53:13,359
Speaker 2: to kidnap him and spirit him to the Jerusalem. Now

1102
00:53:13,360 --> 00:53:15,359
Speaker 2: there's a whole long story here, and I am really

1103
00:53:15,360 --> 00:53:17,600
Speaker 2: boiling out the details because it's the best known part

1104
00:53:17,600 --> 00:53:20,360
Speaker 2: of Iikman's life and it's really not superworth into us

1105
00:53:20,360 --> 00:53:22,880
Speaker 2: getting into detail here about it. But the short of

1106
00:53:22,880 --> 00:53:25,080
Speaker 2: it is, they capture the fucker and he winds up

1107
00:53:25,080 --> 00:53:29,160
Speaker 2: on trial for his many crimes in Jerusalem. Now, the

1108
00:53:29,239 --> 00:53:32,360
Speaker 2: exact form that this trial takes is the work of

1109
00:53:32,440 --> 00:53:35,239
Speaker 2: David Ben Gurion, who's the Prime Minister of Israel and

1110
00:53:35,280 --> 00:53:37,400
Speaker 2: for whom this was not just a manner of justice

1111
00:53:37,520 --> 00:53:40,759
Speaker 2: but a matter of personal political pride. Hannah Arint, in

1112
00:53:40,800 --> 00:53:44,840
Speaker 2: her famous coverage of the trial, described Ben Gurion's motivations

1113
00:53:44,880 --> 00:53:47,880
Speaker 2: this way quote and this is from Eikman in Jerusalem,

1114
00:53:48,320 --> 00:53:50,360
Speaker 2: there was the lesson to the non Jewish world. I

1115
00:53:50,400 --> 00:53:52,600
Speaker 2: went to establish before the nations of the world, how

1116
00:53:52,640 --> 00:53:54,799
Speaker 2: millions of people because they happened to be Jews, and

1117
00:53:54,880 --> 00:53:57,440
Speaker 2: one million babies because they happened to be Jewish babies

1118
00:53:57,600 --> 00:54:00,560
Speaker 2: were murdered by the Nazis. That's been Gurion's words, or

1119
00:54:00,719 --> 00:54:03,040
Speaker 2: in the words of Devar, the organ of Ben Gurian's

1120
00:54:03,040 --> 00:54:05,719
Speaker 2: Mapi party. Let the world opinion know this that not

1121
00:54:05,800 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: in Nazi Germany alone was responsible for the destruction of

1122
00:54:08,480 --> 00:54:11,560
Speaker 2: six million Jews of Europe. Hence, again in Ben Gurian's

1123
00:54:11,560 --> 00:54:13,480
Speaker 2: own words, we want the nations of the world to

1124
00:54:13,560 --> 00:54:16,200
Speaker 2: know and they should be ashamed. The Jews in the

1125
00:54:16,239 --> 00:54:19,239
Speaker 2: diaspora were to remember how four thousand year old Judaism,

1126
00:54:19,280 --> 00:54:22,960
Speaker 2: with its spiritual creations, its ethical strivings, its Messianic aspirations,

1127
00:54:23,120 --> 00:54:25,680
Speaker 2: had always faced a hostile world, how the Jews had

1128
00:54:25,680 --> 00:54:28,279
Speaker 2: degenerated until they went to their death like sheep, and

1129
00:54:28,320 --> 00:54:30,760
Speaker 2: how only the establishment of a Jewish state had enabled

1130
00:54:30,800 --> 00:54:32,880
Speaker 2: Jews to hit back, as Israelis had done in the

1131
00:54:32,880 --> 00:54:35,200
Speaker 2: War of Independence, in the Suez Adventure and in the

1132
00:54:35,200 --> 00:54:38,680
Speaker 2: almost daily incidents on Israel's unhappy borders. And if the

1133
00:54:38,719 --> 00:54:41,240
Speaker 2: Jews outside Israel had to be shown the difference between

1134
00:54:41,280 --> 00:54:44,799
Speaker 2: Israeli heroism and Jewish submissive weakness, there was a complimentary

1135
00:54:44,880 --> 00:54:48,000
Speaker 2: lesson for the Israelis. For quote, the generation of Israelis

1136
00:54:48,000 --> 00:54:50,240
Speaker 2: who have grown up since the Holocaust were in danger

1137
00:54:50,239 --> 00:54:53,000
Speaker 2: of losing their ties with the Jewish people and by implication,

1138
00:54:53,080 --> 00:54:55,680
Speaker 2: with their own history. It is necessary that our youth

1139
00:54:55,719 --> 00:54:58,440
Speaker 2: remember what happened to the Jewish peoples. We want them

1140
00:54:58,480 --> 00:55:01,319
Speaker 2: to know the tragic facts of our history. This is

1141
00:55:01,440 --> 00:55:04,240
Speaker 2: a rent writing that Ben Gurian. He's not just trying.

1142
00:55:04,640 --> 00:55:06,040
Speaker 2: He doesn't just want to see this guy brought to

1143
00:55:06,160 --> 00:55:08,120
Speaker 2: justice because he's a Nazi. He wants to see this

1144
00:55:08,160 --> 00:55:11,400
Speaker 2: guy brought to justice because the story of Iikman highlights

1145
00:55:11,640 --> 00:55:15,000
Speaker 2: how cowardly the European Jews were, that they let themselves

1146
00:55:15,040 --> 00:55:17,880
Speaker 2: be slaughtered, and that that's different from the heroic Israelis

1147
00:55:17,880 --> 00:55:18,799
Speaker 2: who are willing to fight.

1148
00:55:19,000 --> 00:55:19,160
Speaker 4: Right.

1149
00:55:19,480 --> 00:55:22,000
Speaker 2: That's part of why Ben Gurian puts this trial on.

1150
00:55:22,360 --> 00:55:22,600
Speaker 4: Right.

1151
00:55:22,719 --> 00:55:24,600
Speaker 2: There is a propaganda angle here.

1152
00:55:25,160 --> 00:55:28,080
Speaker 4: There is a lot of very disgusting language that was

1153
00:55:28,160 --> 00:55:32,160
Speaker 4: used towards yes, European Jews, despite the fact that a

1154
00:55:32,160 --> 00:55:34,600
Speaker 4: lot of these guys are descended from them, or they're

1155
00:55:34,680 --> 00:55:38,719
Speaker 4: the kids or their neighbors or whatever. Yeah, it's absolutely horrible.

1156
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:42,360
Speaker 2: Yeah, and this is something a Rent is very critical

1157
00:55:42,400 --> 00:55:44,640
Speaker 2: of Israel and sees a lot of the problems that

1158
00:55:44,680 --> 00:55:46,319
Speaker 2: are going to result in the shit we're seeing today.

1159
00:55:46,480 --> 00:55:48,520
Speaker 2: Very early on, she sees a lot of the horror

1160
00:55:48,560 --> 00:55:51,120
Speaker 2: of like what's done to the Palestinians. She sees a

1161
00:55:51,120 --> 00:55:54,359
Speaker 2: lot of what's coming, and she's deeply critical of why

1162
00:55:54,400 --> 00:55:56,759
Speaker 2: this trial. Not that Aikman's on trial, she obviously thinks

1163
00:55:56,760 --> 00:55:59,360
Speaker 2: he needs to be, but she's deeply critical about why

1164
00:55:59,440 --> 00:56:01,919
Speaker 2: he's being put on trial and what else is happening here.

1165
00:56:02,480 --> 00:56:06,080
Speaker 4: You've heard of the Imperial boomerang. This is their genocidal boomerang.

1166
00:56:06,239 --> 00:56:09,640
Speaker 2: Right, And there's a lot of good modern criticism of

1167
00:56:09,640 --> 00:56:12,120
Speaker 2: a Rent and of her writing in Eikman on Jerusalem,

1168
00:56:12,160 --> 00:56:14,840
Speaker 2: because in Jerusalem, because her picture of Aikman as this

1169
00:56:14,920 --> 00:56:17,080
Speaker 2: banal pencil pushing figure is wrong.

1170
00:56:17,239 --> 00:56:17,520
Speaker 4: He is.

1171
00:56:18,000 --> 00:56:21,640
Speaker 2: I think we've made the case a pretty outwardly bombastically

1172
00:56:21,719 --> 00:56:22,640
Speaker 2: villainous Nazi.

1173
00:56:22,960 --> 00:56:27,160
Speaker 4: She fell for his right personal portrayal of himself while

1174
00:56:27,520 --> 00:56:29,560
Speaker 4: submitting himself to a Jewish court.

1175
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:33,360
Speaker 2: Right. But when it comes to dissecting Israeli policies and

1176
00:56:33,400 --> 00:56:35,840
Speaker 2: the message that this trial was meant to show, a

1177
00:56:35,920 --> 00:56:38,239
Speaker 2: Rent is incredibly incisive. And I want to make it

1178
00:56:38,280 --> 00:56:41,239
Speaker 2: clear here she's not saying that what she lays out

1179
00:56:41,239 --> 00:56:44,000
Speaker 2: on the paragraph uncritically right. She's not saying and it's

1180
00:56:44,040 --> 00:56:47,160
Speaker 2: good that Bengaren is doing that she has deep reservations

1181
00:56:47,200 --> 00:56:50,000
Speaker 2: about what he's doing and about the treatment of Holocaust

1182
00:56:50,080 --> 00:56:52,680
Speaker 2: survivors in Europe. I'm going to quote again from Eikman

1183
00:56:52,719 --> 00:56:56,319
Speaker 2: in Jerusalem. Equally superfluous was the lesson to the Jews

1184
00:56:56,360 --> 00:56:59,200
Speaker 2: in the diaspora, who hardly needed a great catastrophe in

1185
00:56:59,239 --> 00:57:01,640
Speaker 2: which a third of their people perished to be convinced

1186
00:57:01,640 --> 00:57:04,640
Speaker 2: of the world's hostility. Not only has their conviction of

1187
00:57:04,680 --> 00:57:07,160
Speaker 2: the eternal and ubiquitous nature of anti Semitism been the

1188
00:57:07,200 --> 00:57:10,200
Speaker 2: most potent ideological factor in the Zionist involvement since the

1189
00:57:10,280 --> 00:57:12,799
Speaker 2: Dreyfus affair, it must also have been the cause of

1190
00:57:12,840 --> 00:57:15,920
Speaker 2: the otherwise inexplicable readiness of the German Jewish community to

1191
00:57:15,960 --> 00:57:18,800
Speaker 2: begin to negotiate with Nazi authorities during the early stages

1192
00:57:18,840 --> 00:57:21,920
Speaker 2: of the regime. This conviction produced a fatal inability to

1193
00:57:21,920 --> 00:57:25,120
Speaker 2: distinguish between friend and foe. The German Jews underestimated their

1194
00:57:25,200 --> 00:57:27,880
Speaker 2: enemies because somehow they thought that all gentiles were alike.

1195
00:57:28,960 --> 00:57:32,400
Speaker 2: And yeah, that's such an important point to make too.

1196
00:57:32,520 --> 00:57:34,640
Speaker 2: And this is why while we have to point out

1197
00:57:34,640 --> 00:57:37,040
Speaker 2: what a rent got wrong, you need to keep this

1198
00:57:37,200 --> 00:57:40,000
Speaker 2: in mind, right that both like, well, this is a

1199
00:57:40,040 --> 00:57:43,400
Speaker 2: lot of what Bengurian's doing is totally unnecessary, and it's

1200
00:57:43,440 --> 00:57:46,640
Speaker 2: also based on him kind of falling into the same mistake,

1201
00:57:46,680 --> 00:57:48,760
Speaker 2: a different version of the same mistake that a lot

1202
00:57:48,760 --> 00:57:51,240
Speaker 2: of European Jews made early on, which is thinking that

1203
00:57:51,280 --> 00:57:53,720
Speaker 2: all the gentiles are alike, right, which leads them to

1204
00:57:53,720 --> 00:57:57,960
Speaker 2: misunderstand their enemies. One thing that really gets lost in

1205
00:57:58,040 --> 00:58:01,720
Speaker 2: casual discussion of Eichman's trial in Jerusalem is that Israeli

1206
00:58:01,720 --> 00:58:05,200
Speaker 2: authorities also kind of put Holocaust survivors on trial for

1207
00:58:05,240 --> 00:58:08,640
Speaker 2: their timidity. They of course needed witnesses to call to

1208
00:58:08,720 --> 00:58:11,160
Speaker 2: discuss the details of the killing system Iikeman had helped

1209
00:58:11,160 --> 00:58:15,200
Speaker 2: to implement. A Rent describes quote the prosecutor asking witness

1210
00:58:15,200 --> 00:58:18,200
Speaker 2: after witness, why did you not protest? Why did you

1211
00:58:18,280 --> 00:58:21,080
Speaker 2: board the train? Fifteen thousand people were standing there and

1212
00:58:21,160 --> 00:58:23,680
Speaker 2: hundreds of guards facing you. Why didn't you revolt in

1213
00:58:23,800 --> 00:58:26,600
Speaker 2: charge and attack these guards? Harped on for all it

1214
00:58:26,640 --> 00:58:28,720
Speaker 2: was worth. But the sad truth of the matter is

1215
00:58:28,720 --> 00:58:31,280
Speaker 2: that the point was ill taken, for no non Jewish

1216
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:35,280
Speaker 2: group or non Jewish people had behaved differently sixteen years ago,

1217
00:58:35,320 --> 00:58:37,640
Speaker 2: while still under the direct impact of the events. A

1218
00:58:37,640 --> 00:58:41,560
Speaker 2: former French inmate of Bukenvault, David Roussette, described in his

1219
00:58:41,640 --> 00:58:45,040
Speaker 2: book the logic that obtained in all concentration camps. Quote

1220
00:58:45,200 --> 00:58:47,840
Speaker 2: the triumph of the ss demands that the tortured victim

1221
00:58:47,880 --> 00:58:50,480
Speaker 2: allow himself to be led to the news without protesting,

1222
00:58:50,720 --> 00:58:52,920
Speaker 2: that he renounced and abandoned himself to the point of

1223
00:58:52,960 --> 00:58:55,960
Speaker 2: ceasing to affirm his identity, and it is not for nothing.

1224
00:58:56,080 --> 00:58:58,560
Speaker 2: It is not gratuitously out of sheer sadism that the

1225
00:58:58,680 --> 00:59:01,640
Speaker 2: essmen desire his defeat. They know that the system which

1226
00:59:01,680 --> 00:59:04,840
Speaker 2: succeeds in destroying its victims before he mounts the scaffold

1227
00:59:05,160 --> 00:59:07,600
Speaker 2: is incomparably the best for keeping a whole people in

1228
00:59:07,680 --> 00:59:11,480
Speaker 2: slavery in submission. Nothing is more terrible than these processions

1229
00:59:11,520 --> 00:59:14,720
Speaker 2: of human beings going like dummies to their death. The

1230
00:59:14,760 --> 00:59:17,960
Speaker 2: court received no answer to this cruel and silly question,

1231
00:59:18,240 --> 00:59:20,280
Speaker 2: but one could easily have found an answer had he

1232
00:59:20,320 --> 00:59:22,960
Speaker 2: permitted his imagination to dwell for a few minutes on

1233
00:59:23,000 --> 00:59:25,520
Speaker 2: the fate of those Dutch Jews who, in nineteen forty

1234
00:59:25,560 --> 00:59:28,200
Speaker 2: one in the Old Jewish Quarter of Amsterdam dared to

1235
00:59:28,240 --> 00:59:31,640
Speaker 2: attack a German security police detachment. Four hundred and thirty

1236
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:34,640
Speaker 2: Jews were arrested in reprisal, and they were literally tortured

1237
00:59:34,640 --> 00:59:36,800
Speaker 2: to death, being sent first to book involved and then

1238
00:59:36,840 --> 00:59:39,520
Speaker 2: to the Austrian camp of Ma thousand. Month after month,

1239
00:59:39,560 --> 00:59:41,840
Speaker 2: they died a thousand deaths, and every single one of

1240
00:59:41,880 --> 00:59:43,840
Speaker 2: them would have envied his brethren in Auschwitz had he

1241
00:59:43,880 --> 00:59:47,560
Speaker 2: known about them. There exist many things considerably worse than death,

1242
00:59:47,760 --> 00:59:49,600
Speaker 2: and the SS saw to it that none of them

1243
00:59:49,680 --> 00:59:51,960
Speaker 2: was ever very far from the mind to an imagination

1244
00:59:52,040 --> 00:59:55,400
Speaker 2: of their victims. In this respect, perhaps even more significantly

1245
00:59:55,400 --> 00:59:58,080
Speaker 2: than in other's, the deliberate attempt in Jerusalem to tell

1246
00:59:58,120 --> 01:00:00,880
Speaker 2: only the Jewish side of the story, to distorted the truth,

1247
01:00:01,200 --> 01:00:04,600
Speaker 2: even the Jewish truth. And this is such an important

1248
01:00:04,600 --> 01:00:08,520
Speaker 2: criticism that not only are the victims of Iikman also

1249
01:00:08,640 --> 01:00:12,000
Speaker 2: on trial in Jerusalem, but that by framing it this way,

1250
01:00:12,320 --> 01:00:14,720
Speaker 2: by being so obsessed with well, why didn't they fight more?

1251
01:00:14,760 --> 01:00:17,160
Speaker 2: Why didn't there And by being so obsessed with just

1252
01:00:17,240 --> 01:00:20,120
Speaker 2: the Jewish victims of the Holocaust, they're distorting even the

1253
01:00:20,160 --> 01:00:22,560
Speaker 2: story of the Jewish victims of the Holocaust. That that's

1254
01:00:22,600 --> 01:00:23,600
Speaker 2: also happening here.

1255
01:00:24,160 --> 01:00:30,120
Speaker 4: Mmmmmm. It's something that continues to happen with unfortunately Israeli history,

1256
01:00:30,760 --> 01:00:34,240
Speaker 4: of the downplaying of the other victims and even other

1257
01:00:34,280 --> 01:00:40,400
Speaker 4: genocides as well, in order to tell their own crafted

1258
01:00:40,560 --> 01:00:44,040
Speaker 4: version of it, of going like sheep to the slaughter

1259
01:00:44,560 --> 01:00:48,600
Speaker 4: as a famous quote yeah and was even used as

1260
01:00:48,640 --> 01:00:51,680
Speaker 4: a rallying cry by I believe his name is Abner kovnor.

1261
01:00:51,520 --> 01:00:53,320
Speaker 2: Yes yeah, conor yes.

1262
01:00:53,240 --> 01:00:59,520
Speaker 4: Yeah, to launch attacks against surviving ss men and even

1263
01:00:59,360 --> 01:01:03,480
Speaker 4: attempt to poison an entire city in Germany.

1264
01:01:03,640 --> 01:01:05,439
Speaker 2: Yeah, as we talked about the part of a group

1265
01:01:05,480 --> 01:01:06,840
Speaker 2: called NACAM, Yeah.

1266
01:01:06,640 --> 01:01:09,440
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, yeah yeah, And that was like the rallying cries,

1267
01:01:09,520 --> 01:01:11,520
Speaker 4: like we did not go like sheeps to the slaughter.

1268
01:01:11,720 --> 01:01:13,880
Speaker 2: Yes, and they did, And there were so many other

1269
01:01:13,960 --> 01:01:17,080
Speaker 2: examples of resistance. Right. But the point that our rent

1270
01:01:17,200 --> 01:01:20,120
Speaker 2: is making is both that like, you can't imagine the

1271
01:01:20,520 --> 01:01:22,880
Speaker 2: position these people were in and what had been done

1272
01:01:22,920 --> 01:01:26,800
Speaker 2: to them already, and also like the degree of like

1273
01:01:27,000 --> 01:01:29,600
Speaker 2: critiquing them for this. They acted like everyone else. And

1274
01:01:29,640 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: we know this because every other group that was targeted

1275
01:01:31,680 --> 01:01:34,720
Speaker 2: by the Nazis that was put into this system, they

1276
01:01:34,800 --> 01:01:36,440
Speaker 2: more or less all behaved similarly.

1277
01:01:36,600 --> 01:01:36,800
Speaker 4: Right.

1278
01:01:37,280 --> 01:01:40,560
Speaker 2: Of course, this is not just a problem with Jewish

1279
01:01:40,600 --> 01:01:42,760
Speaker 2: people in Europe. This was just something. This was a

1280
01:01:42,800 --> 01:01:45,800
Speaker 2: result of the sheer amount of violence that was deployed

1281
01:01:45,840 --> 01:01:47,080
Speaker 2: and what it does to people.

1282
01:01:47,240 --> 01:01:51,480
Speaker 4: It happens with every genocide, and this story gets told

1283
01:01:51,800 --> 01:01:58,480
Speaker 4: with every genocide. I am Armenian, and Armenians tell the

1284
01:01:58,520 --> 01:02:02,960
Speaker 4: same thing that they they put their own history through

1285
01:02:02,960 --> 01:02:05,240
Speaker 4: the same Well why did they why did they just

1286
01:02:05,360 --> 01:02:08,120
Speaker 4: walk off like that and do as they're told? They're like,

1287
01:02:08,680 --> 01:02:12,360
Speaker 4: how fucking stupid, are you? Yeah, it's it's how fucking

1288
01:02:12,520 --> 01:02:13,040
Speaker 4: dare you.

1289
01:02:13,440 --> 01:02:15,440
Speaker 2: It's this desire both to avoid what you see is

1290
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,920
Speaker 2: the shame that like they didn't fight back more, and

1291
01:02:18,000 --> 01:02:20,640
Speaker 2: also this belief to think that, like, well, I would

1292
01:02:20,720 --> 01:02:24,000
Speaker 2: never be in that position. I'm built different, I'd fight back.

1293
01:02:24,280 --> 01:02:26,000
Speaker 2: And I can see it because like now that I'm

1294
01:02:26,000 --> 01:02:27,480
Speaker 2: on the side, now that I'm part of a country

1295
01:02:27,480 --> 01:02:30,680
Speaker 2: that has a military that's capable of like fighting, I'm

1296
01:02:30,800 --> 01:02:33,320
Speaker 2: you know, we're we're we're fighting, right, Like we would

1297
01:02:33,320 --> 01:02:36,240
Speaker 2: never just give up, you know. And it's this desire

1298
01:02:36,280 --> 01:02:38,800
Speaker 2: to believe that, like you were now safe from this

1299
01:02:38,880 --> 01:02:42,680
Speaker 2: horrible thing. Yeah, and this desire to believe also that

1300
01:02:43,600 --> 01:02:47,040
Speaker 2: it's it's it's this deeply insidious attitude that like people

1301
01:02:47,080 --> 01:02:49,800
Speaker 2: who suffer something that badly, even if they're your people,

1302
01:02:49,960 --> 01:02:52,640
Speaker 2: they must have done something wrong. Yeah, exactly, they didn't

1303
01:02:52,640 --> 01:02:55,280
Speaker 2: fight hard enough. Right, There's something that they could have

1304
01:02:55,360 --> 01:02:59,120
Speaker 2: done that I would do if I was in their situation, right.

1305
01:02:59,560 --> 01:03:02,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, everybody, Oh, that couldn't happen to me. I would

1306
01:03:02,160 --> 01:03:05,120
Speaker 4: do this, I assure you will. Yeah, it would be me, Yeah,

1307
01:03:05,200 --> 01:03:05,880
Speaker 4: it fucking would.

1308
01:03:06,400 --> 01:03:09,160
Speaker 2: And I think a rint's work is so valuable in

1309
01:03:09,200 --> 01:03:13,880
Speaker 2: part because she brings this criticism up. That is, it's

1310
01:03:14,040 --> 01:03:15,880
Speaker 2: very hard to talk about this. It's very hard to

1311
01:03:15,880 --> 01:03:19,680
Speaker 2: be critical of, like, especially in public, of how Israel

1312
01:03:19,800 --> 01:03:22,960
Speaker 2: handled the Aikman and what they did, And the story

1313
01:03:23,000 --> 01:03:26,000
Speaker 2: of Israeli treatment of Holocaust survivors is much deeper than

1314
01:03:26,080 --> 01:03:28,200
Speaker 2: just this, and it's difficult to be for a lot

1315
01:03:28,200 --> 01:03:29,960
Speaker 2: of people to be critical about it because it's hard

1316
01:03:30,000 --> 01:03:32,920
Speaker 2: to not seem like you're saying something fine, and like

1317
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:36,480
Speaker 2: a Rent is a Holocaust survivor. She has smuggled out

1318
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:40,000
Speaker 2: of Europe right like she is, and she is the

1319
01:03:40,040 --> 01:03:43,800
Speaker 2: one making these criticisms of Israel during the trial, right

1320
01:03:43,880 --> 01:03:46,040
Speaker 2: as she's reporting for I think the fucking New Yorker.

1321
01:03:46,360 --> 01:03:50,040
Speaker 2: You know, Uh, it's very important, and her and Iikman

1322
01:03:50,080 --> 01:03:51,880
Speaker 2: in Jerusalem, for all of its flaws, is still very

1323
01:03:51,880 --> 01:03:56,000
Speaker 2: important to read for these reasons. Now, I find stuff

1324
01:03:56,040 --> 01:03:59,560
Speaker 2: like this much more interesting than Aikman's actual performance on trial.

1325
01:04:00,480 --> 01:04:03,000
Speaker 2: In short, his defense council tries to use the argument

1326
01:04:03,040 --> 01:04:05,840
Speaker 2: that Hans Globke had drafted the Nuremberg racial laws in

1327
01:04:05,880 --> 01:04:09,280
Speaker 2: nineteen thirty five, and thus Eikman had only been following orders.

1328
01:04:09,720 --> 01:04:12,560
Speaker 2: Eichman himself sought to inhabit the image of a timid

1329
01:04:12,600 --> 01:04:16,000
Speaker 2: middle manager. Oh, we'd handled some logistics. Sure, he'd helped

1330
01:04:16,040 --> 01:04:18,520
Speaker 2: send Jews to camps. He was making the trains run,

1331
01:04:18,520 --> 01:04:22,640
Speaker 2: but he wasn't putting people in gas chambers. He testified personally,

1332
01:04:22,840 --> 01:04:25,400
Speaker 2: I had nothing to do with killing Jews. I've never

1333
01:04:25,480 --> 01:04:28,160
Speaker 2: killed a Jew, and I've never ordered anyone to kill

1334
01:04:28,160 --> 01:04:31,960
Speaker 2: a Jew. The German government, for their part, when he

1335
01:04:32,040 --> 01:04:35,360
Speaker 2: brings part of what Germany's doing, when Eichman brings up

1336
01:04:35,360 --> 01:04:37,200
Speaker 2: Globka to try to be like, no, this was the

1337
01:04:37,200 --> 01:04:41,600
Speaker 2: guy responsible. Germany tries to hush that up, right, and

1338
01:04:41,840 --> 01:04:44,240
Speaker 2: they're like really taught, like pushing internationally, like we've got

1339
01:04:44,280 --> 01:04:47,480
Speaker 2: to keep this shit quiet because Globca at this point

1340
01:04:47,520 --> 01:04:50,240
Speaker 2: is the senior most civil servant in West Germany working

1341
01:04:50,320 --> 01:04:51,480
Speaker 2: under Conrad Idenauer.

1342
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:53,360
Speaker 4: Right there it is, Yeah.

1343
01:04:53,160 --> 01:04:55,720
Speaker 2: The guy who drafted the Nuberg racial laws is working

1344
01:04:55,760 --> 01:04:58,600
Speaker 2: for the government. Again, he's the senior most civil servant

1345
01:04:58,640 --> 01:05:03,240
Speaker 2: in West Germany under Edenow. So obviously the outcome of

1346
01:05:03,280 --> 01:05:05,400
Speaker 2: this trial is never really in doubt. And there are

1347
01:05:05,400 --> 01:05:07,920
Speaker 2: some very valuable things that happen during the trial and

1348
01:05:07,920 --> 01:05:10,320
Speaker 2: that get out, and it's very valuable that a lot

1349
01:05:10,320 --> 01:05:13,240
Speaker 2: of Eichman's victims are allowed to talk about what happened

1350
01:05:13,280 --> 01:05:15,320
Speaker 2: to them, are allowed to put that on the historic record.

1351
01:05:15,520 --> 01:05:17,880
Speaker 2: I'm not claiming that like this is all a failure

1352
01:05:17,960 --> 01:05:20,560
Speaker 2: or bad. A lot of good does come of his trial, right.

1353
01:05:20,560 --> 01:05:22,280
Speaker 2: That is also a part of the story, and it's

1354
01:05:22,280 --> 01:05:24,520
Speaker 2: an important part of the story. And the fact that

1355
01:05:24,560 --> 01:05:26,480
Speaker 2: a lot of victims of the Holocaust get to go

1356
01:05:26,560 --> 01:05:28,640
Speaker 2: in front of a perpetrator and lay out what he

1357
01:05:28,720 --> 01:05:32,120
Speaker 2: did to them is good. There are also horrifying moments, right.

1358
01:05:32,160 --> 01:05:33,840
Speaker 2: One of the worst moments of the trial is a

1359
01:05:33,880 --> 01:05:38,439
Speaker 2: former Auschwitz inmate is shown a camp uniform while he's

1360
01:05:38,480 --> 01:05:41,000
Speaker 2: on trial, and he has a stroke in the courtroom.

1361
01:05:41,120 --> 01:05:45,000
Speaker 2: Oh geez, it's fucking nightmarriage. And in this case they

1362
01:05:45,040 --> 01:05:46,800
Speaker 2: are trying to do like the right thing, where it's

1363
01:05:46,800 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 2: like we need this on the record, but like, of

1364
01:05:49,320 --> 01:05:53,160
Speaker 2: course that's what happens sometimes, right, Like it's just it's horrible,

1365
01:05:53,200 --> 01:05:55,800
Speaker 2: Like there's no easy way to handle all this stuff.

1366
01:05:56,960 --> 01:06:00,240
Speaker 2: On December eleventh and twelfth, in nineteen sixty one, laired

1367
01:06:00,280 --> 01:06:03,000
Speaker 2: Adolf Iikeman guilty of crimes against the Jewish people and

1368
01:06:03,080 --> 01:06:05,640
Speaker 2: humanity as a whole. He was sentenced to death by

1369
01:06:05,680 --> 01:06:08,960
Speaker 2: hanging and executed on June first, nineteen sixty two. He

1370
01:06:09,040 --> 01:06:12,640
Speaker 2: died unrepentant, and that's the Iikman story.

1371
01:06:14,080 --> 01:06:17,240
Speaker 4: I mean, it's not surprising he went screaming to hell,

1372
01:06:17,400 --> 01:06:19,160
Speaker 4: refrising tod not that he was wrong.

1373
01:06:19,680 --> 01:06:21,280
Speaker 2: Yeah, no, that scance.

1374
01:06:22,040 --> 01:06:27,200
Speaker 4: Yeah. Well, uh good, I guess. Yeah, I'm glad to

1375
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:29,840
Speaker 4: end it that way rather than going out the mangal away,

1376
01:06:29,880 --> 01:06:33,080
Speaker 4: which I dying of a people swimming.

1377
01:06:33,320 --> 01:06:38,280
Speaker 2: Yeah yeah, oh man. Anyway, No, admittedly, I.

1378
01:06:38,280 --> 01:06:40,680
Speaker 4: Feel like drowning would be a lot worse. So who's

1379
01:06:40,720 --> 01:06:41,080
Speaker 4: to say?

1380
01:06:41,520 --> 01:06:43,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, who's to say? I mean, I don't know. My

1381
01:06:43,440 --> 01:06:45,360
Speaker 2: grandma nearly drowned to death and always had said it

1382
01:06:45,400 --> 01:06:47,360
Speaker 2: was a pretty pleasant way to go, like you feel

1383
01:06:47,440 --> 01:06:49,520
Speaker 2: really warm and nice at the end. I don't know.

1384
01:06:49,560 --> 01:06:50,360
Speaker 2: I've never drowned.

1385
01:06:50,840 --> 01:06:53,640
Speaker 4: Uh do we know? If Israel did it right and

1386
01:06:53,680 --> 01:06:57,080
Speaker 4: he didn't strangle to death. I feel like that's something

1387
01:06:57,120 --> 01:06:59,520
Speaker 4: that an Israeli prison guard would fuck up on purpose.

1388
01:06:59,800 --> 01:07:02,640
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean I don't think he like it wasn't like,

1389
01:07:02,680 --> 01:07:04,640
Speaker 2: because that happens to a lot of the Nuremberg guys,

1390
01:07:04,680 --> 01:07:07,480
Speaker 2: like the hangman, like purposefully fucks up.

1391
01:07:07,560 --> 01:07:09,440
Speaker 4: Oh Yeah, that hangman ruled.

1392
01:07:11,280 --> 01:07:13,760
Speaker 2: Yeah, we've done episodes on him as like a pretty

1393
01:07:13,760 --> 01:07:15,480
Speaker 2: cool guy.

1394
01:07:15,240 --> 01:07:17,120
Speaker 4: Just a drunk guy who wanted to strangle a lot

1395
01:07:17,160 --> 01:07:19,480
Speaker 4: of Nazis and accidentally kind riped their heads off.

1396
01:07:19,600 --> 01:07:22,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, he was the right man for the job. Yeah,

1397
01:07:22,680 --> 01:07:24,880
Speaker 2: he is executed by hanging. I don't I don't think

1398
01:07:24,880 --> 01:07:27,040
Speaker 2: he was particularly fucked up. It should have been.

1399
01:07:27,240 --> 01:07:28,200
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's unfortunate.

1400
01:07:28,320 --> 01:07:30,480
Speaker 2: Yeah, do it the slow way, like, oh no, we

1401
01:07:30,880 --> 01:07:32,080
Speaker 2: built it too low a isreel.

1402
01:07:32,160 --> 01:07:34,440
Speaker 4: You can't fuck up the one thing we want you

1403
01:07:34,480 --> 01:07:35,120
Speaker 4: to fuck up.

1404
01:07:35,280 --> 01:07:40,440
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, really screw over this hanging. Yeah. Anyway, Well,

1405
01:07:40,640 --> 01:07:42,400
Speaker 2: if you ever get a chance to hang a Nazi,

1406
01:07:42,480 --> 01:07:44,640
Speaker 2: be bad at it exactly. Yeah.

1407
01:07:44,760 --> 01:07:46,560
Speaker 4: The only way to be good at that job is

1408
01:07:46,560 --> 01:07:49,400
Speaker 4: by fucking it up harder than you fucked up anything

1409
01:07:49,440 --> 01:07:50,959
Speaker 4: you fucked up before you.

1410
01:07:51,000 --> 01:07:54,160
Speaker 2: Need to get drunk. You've got to really practice to

1411
01:07:54,200 --> 01:07:55,400
Speaker 2: be incompetent at this.

1412
01:07:56,000 --> 01:07:56,560
Speaker 4: There you go.

1413
01:07:56,760 --> 01:08:00,960
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, all right, everybody.

1414
01:08:00,680 --> 01:08:02,360
Speaker 1: Listen to listen to Joe's podcast.

1415
01:08:02,560 --> 01:08:03,760
Speaker 2: Listen to Joe's podcast.

1416
01:08:03,920 --> 01:08:06,360
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, if you want to know more about actually

1417
01:08:06,480 --> 01:08:09,200
Speaker 4: weird that this everything you bring up keeps coming back

1418
01:08:09,200 --> 01:08:10,520
Speaker 4: to a series that we've done. But we did a

1419
01:08:10,560 --> 01:08:14,600
Speaker 4: series in Auto SCORESMI. Uh yeah, he's a psycho. You

1420
01:08:14,640 --> 01:08:16,479
Speaker 4: can listen to that. You could listen to that series

1421
01:08:16,520 --> 01:08:19,360
Speaker 4: that we did, or one of the other three hundred

1422
01:08:19,439 --> 01:08:21,280
Speaker 4: or so episodes we've done over the last seventy years.

1423
01:08:21,280 --> 01:08:24,000
Speaker 4: You'll find something you like. Gold Lines led by Donkeys.

1424
01:08:24,040 --> 01:08:25,960
Speaker 4: Listen to it. We have a Patreon check it out.

1425
01:08:26,520 --> 01:08:31,080
Speaker 2: Yeah, check out their Patreon and uh yeah, go do

1426
01:08:31,200 --> 01:08:32,960
Speaker 2: something happy now have fun.

1427
01:08:36,720 --> 01:08:39,439
Speaker 3: Behind the Bastards is a production of cool Zone Media.

1428
01:08:39,800 --> 01:08:42,400
Speaker 3: For more from cool Zone Media, visit our website cool

1429
01:08:42,479 --> 01:08:46,439
Speaker 3: Zonemedia dot com, or check us out on the iHeartRadio app,

1430
01:08:46,520 --> 01:08:49,680
Speaker 3: Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. Behind the

1431
01:08:49,720 --> 01:08:53,800
Speaker 3: Bastards is now available on YouTube, new episodes every Wednesday

1432
01:08:53,880 --> 01:08:57,519
Speaker 3: and Friday. Subscribe to our channel YouTube dot com slash

1433
01:08:57,720 --> 01:08:59,240
Speaker 3: at Behind the Bastards