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Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. There are certain days in

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Speaker 1: your life that mark you, and for me those days

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Speaker 1: were the birth of my kids and also the birth

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Speaker 1: of my grandchildren. I'll never forget it as long as

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Speaker 1: I live, because you know, people, it's it's kind of

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Speaker 1: wrote to say it, I know, but it is truly

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Speaker 1: a miracle when you're there in year you watch this happen,

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Speaker 1: this thing that just occurs and brings life into the world,

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Speaker 1: and it's so beautiful, and it's something that you never forget,

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Speaker 1: at least from me. I'll never forget it until my

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Speaker 1: dying day. Look, today we're going to talk about a

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Speaker 1: case involving a young mother and a baby who never

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Speaker 1: had a chance in life. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and

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Speaker 1: this is Bodybags. Joining me is Jackie Howard, executive producer,

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Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace. Jackie, I don't know, probably

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Speaker 1: for me as a death investigator, if there were any

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Speaker 1: sadder cases than those involving kids and particularly babies. It

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Speaker 1: just it hurts your heart, It bruises you. It's something

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Speaker 1: that you carry with you for the rest of your life.

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Speaker 1: And the case that we're going to be discussing today,

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Speaker 1: is such a case like that that I don't know

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Speaker 1: that anyone could ever get over this, beyond it, past it,

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Speaker 1: and certainly never forget it. No, Joe, And I think

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Speaker 1: for me, what made this case as bad as it was,

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Speaker 1: what made it one degree work, is that the young

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Speaker 1: lady who died, her mother was the one who found

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Speaker 1: her body. Reagan Simmons Handcock, was found lying face down

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Speaker 1: in her bloody living room, and according to the police,

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Speaker 1: there was blood throughout the house. Now, this woman was

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Speaker 1: seven and a half, nearly eight months pregnant with her

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Speaker 1: second child. And keep the mind again that there was

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Speaker 1: blood everywhere in the house, on the floors, on the walls,

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Speaker 1: on the furniture, on the appliances, and other items throughout

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Speaker 1: the house. And we discussed this case with someone else

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Speaker 1: the other day and the comment was made, you know

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Speaker 1: how horrific it was because you don't keep your toaster

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Speaker 1: in the living room. So she was found in the

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Speaker 1: living room, yet there was blood on the toaster in

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Speaker 1: the kitchen. Reagan Handcock Simmons was stabbed and her baby,

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Speaker 1: her nearly eight month fetus, was cut from her womb,

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Speaker 1: and her mother made the nine one one call around

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Speaker 1: ten thirty on a Friday morning in October, having found

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Speaker 1: her daughter lying face down in the living room. It's

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Speaker 1: one of those things I'm glad you brought up a

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Speaker 1: point by blood because it's part and parcel of what

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Speaker 1: we do is death investigators. It's one of the first

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Speaker 1: things that people think about from an evidentiary standpoint, because

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Speaker 1: the spilling of blood is evidence that something horrible has happened,

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Speaker 1: that there's a sickness, or that there was some type

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Speaker 1: of event that brought about at least from the smallest

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Speaker 1: blood droplet to just a vast amount of blood where

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Speaker 1: it looks like a room sometimes it's just been bathed

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Speaker 1: in it, and you have to be able to look

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Speaker 1: past the horror of that and try to get down

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Speaker 1: to business and try to understand the dynamics of the

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Speaker 1: blood flow, dynamics of the staining of the blood that's

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Speaker 1: left behind, and what does the blood trying to tell you.

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Speaker 1: It's quite something when you think about it and that

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Speaker 1: transfer of the blood and you get an idea of

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Speaker 1: what had happened to both the victim and potentially a

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Speaker 1: perpetrator because they're contacting various surfaces. You know, you brought

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Speaker 1: up this point about the toaster. How in Heaven's name

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Speaker 1: does a toaster have a transfer or contact blood stain

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Speaker 1: on the surface of it? And it's just not something

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Speaker 1: that is compatible with logical thought. And it goes back

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Speaker 1: to the premise that I've always said here on body backs,

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Speaker 1: and that is that we as death investigators are always

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Speaker 1: having a view the abnormal in the context of the normal,

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Speaker 1: and sometimes things just don't make sense. Speaking of that,

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Speaker 1: I have two questions for you. The first thing you

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Speaker 1: have to consider is, we know we have a finite

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Speaker 1: amount of blood in our body, so how much is

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Speaker 1: there for it to be everywhere? And we know that

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Speaker 1: it smears and runs and pools. But to make another analogy,

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Speaker 1: let's liken this to an arson scene. How do you

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Speaker 1: find ground zero? How do you find the burn point? So,

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Speaker 1: with blood everywhere, how do you figure out where the

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Speaker 1: murder actually occurred? Well, let's go back to your first question,

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Speaker 1: and it's certainly a great question. People want to know

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Speaker 1: how much blood is in a person, you know, just

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Speaker 1: up and walking around. And the answer is variable, and

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Speaker 1: a lot of it depends upon the size and the

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Speaker 1: level of a physical maturity. If you're talking about a child.

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Speaker 1: Obviously a child is not going to have as much

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Speaker 1: as a full grown adult. And then you know a

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Speaker 1: more diminutive full grown adult is not going to have

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Speaker 1: as much as a rather robust individual. You know, if

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Speaker 1: you begin to think and toy around with the idea,

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Speaker 1: so maybe about two gallons of blood and your body,

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Speaker 1: that gives you an idea of how much blood is

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Speaker 1: floating around, and again that that number is greatly, wildly

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Speaker 1: variable when there is a blood letting or a spillage

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Speaker 1: of blood. The primary you drew the comparison between that

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Speaker 1: an Arson case and Jackie. I don't think I've ever

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Speaker 1: heard anybody do that, but actually it's really cool, you know,

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Speaker 1: because in Arson we think about things like points of origin,

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Speaker 1: and with blood it can in fact be the same

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Speaker 1: where first off, the initial attack may have taken place

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Speaker 1: where you're going to have cast off blood. There's kind

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Speaker 1: of a dynamic flow. You might have what's called arterial

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Speaker 1: spray if you cut a vessel, and you'll have that

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Speaker 1: kind of immediate pumping out of blood. And then a

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Speaker 1: person might say, for instance, after initially being injured, runaway

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Speaker 1: or attempt to escape, and then you'll have these kind

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Speaker 1: of droplets that are falling away passively off of the

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Speaker 1: body as they're tracking through it, and the person's footprints

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Speaker 1: might be tracking through it along with the perpetrators that's

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Speaker 1: certainly chasing them. And then finally, the location of where

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Speaker 1: they come to rest, if they're viable, is where they're

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Speaker 1: going to pump out. And many times you see that

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Speaker 1: at those locations. And you know case I'm thinking about famously,

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Speaker 1: and I hate mentioned the name of Jodi Arius. When

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Speaker 1: you go back to that case, Travis Alexander's body where

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Speaker 1: he came to rest, you had that copious amount of

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Speaker 1: blood where she cut his throat and that final desperate

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Speaker 1: moments and then the carpet was super saturated. Well, the

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Speaker 1: attack had occurred back down the hall in a bathroom.

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Speaker 1: But in a case like this, you've got a lot

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Speaker 1: of activity that's going on in this particular case, in

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Speaker 1: the ideas to try to find out what the dynamic is,

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Speaker 1: the points of origin from the body, what caused the injury,

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Speaker 1: because in this particular case, we've got a young mother

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Speaker 1: to be that has been stabbed over a hundred times.

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Speaker 1: Let that sink in over a hundred times, and not

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Speaker 1: just that she's been bludgend as well. One of the

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Speaker 1: facts in this case is that a hammer was used

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Speaker 1: on this poor woman. What can a hammer do to

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Speaker 1: a skull? When it comes to the death of Reagan,

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Speaker 1: this is one of the more horrific things that I've

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Speaker 1: come across in sometime. In addition to all of these

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Speaker 1: sharp force injuries that she sustained, probably near a hundred,

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Speaker 1: I guess, the fact is is that she was also

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Speaker 1: beaten with a hammer. And when I say hammer, it's

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Speaker 1: not simply the blunt end of the hammer. The medical

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Speaker 1: examiner concluded that not only was she struck with kind

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Speaker 1: of the flat coin shaped end of a hammer, but

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Speaker 1: also the claw. So not only has Reagan been beaten

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Speaker 1: with this hammer by the end that you would commonly

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Speaker 1: associate with driving nails with, but this is a claw hammer.

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Speaker 1: And according to the medical examiner, Reagan was also beaten

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Speaker 1: with a claw as well. And these are going to

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Speaker 1: be very distinctive injuries to her skull. So you're going

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Speaker 1: to have this kind of underlying depressed skull fracture that

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Speaker 1: you get with the end that you would commonly drive

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Speaker 1: a nail with. Many times these injuries will will give

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Speaker 1: the appearance of a kind of a quarter size shape,

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Speaker 1: perfectly circular. It would marry up with that end of

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Speaker 1: the hammer. But then you get these nasty blows that

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Speaker 1: originate from the claw, and as you well know, the

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Speaker 1: claws too pronged, and so those can fracture the skull

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Speaker 1: as well. But those injuries appear completely different. They appear

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Speaker 1: different on the surface of the scalp because they almost

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Speaker 1: look like an incised injury. And then into the skull,

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Speaker 1: you'll have these kind of grooves that are cut into

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Speaker 1: the skull where this claw actually makes impact. And it

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Speaker 1: is an absolutely brutal way to die because this hammer

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Speaker 1: over and over again she struck five times, would have

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Speaker 1: been driven deeper and deeper into her skull. Dependent upon

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Speaker 1: where these strikes took place, you might have an instance

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Speaker 1: where you have over lapping fractures and over lapping impacts,

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Speaker 1: and so it would be a collection of injuries focalized

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Speaker 1: in one specific area in her Her skull would have

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Speaker 1: just been crushed. What I found really strange about this Joe.

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Speaker 1: We know that the scalpel, or a scalpel rather, was

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Speaker 1: removed from the woman's neck, even with the amount of

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Speaker 1: blood that was found knowing that this young mother was stabbed.

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Speaker 1: The stabs were not what killed her. The autopsy showed

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Speaker 1: that handcock was strangled. How does that happen? Does that

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Speaker 1: mean she was stabbed afterwards? In a lot of these cases,

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Speaker 1: and look, we say this a lot, but in this

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Speaker 1: particular case, when you have an individual that has this

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Speaker 1: many stab wounds, what we refer to as StarForce injuries,

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Speaker 1: those sites are whether or not they're going to be fatal,

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Speaker 1: is heavily deepened upon the depth and if they're impacting

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Speaker 1: any kind of underlying structures and like vital organs. If

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Speaker 1: you've got to, say, for instance, a six inch long

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Speaker 1: butcher knife, and you drive it into the chest just

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Speaker 1: to the left of the sternum, well you're going to

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Speaker 1: eventually drive that home if you have the strength, into

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Speaker 1: the heart, and that's not instantaneous, but the individual's going

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Speaker 1: to die pretty quickly. Whereas you have an individual that

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Speaker 1: has cut multiple surfaces of the body, it's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: going to bring about an instantaneous death. And there's another

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Speaker 1: thing that happens here when you think about post mortal

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Speaker 1: activity with an individual that is attacking somebody, what's the

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Speaker 1: rationale for it. You know, why would you obviously be

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Speaker 1: stabbing or cutting someone that's obviously dead. What's the motivation

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Speaker 1: behind it? And again, for us in forensics forensics science

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Speaker 1: in particular, that's not really the area that we're going

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Speaker 1: to go down the road in, but we're going to

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Speaker 1: make note of it because it is significant if a

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Speaker 1: case like this finally goes to trial, because it's demonstrative

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Speaker 1: of a bigger issue, and it's rare, you know, because

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Speaker 1: we know that she was struck in the head, we

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Speaker 1: know that she was stabbed all these times, and then

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Speaker 1: you throw on top of this that there's some kind

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Speaker 1: of asphyxial event that's going on. You want to say overkill.

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Speaker 1: People love to throw that term around. This is I

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Speaker 1: don't know that there's a finer example of overkill in

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Speaker 1: a case than what Reagan had to endure in this.

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Speaker 1: I know that she endured something. She had an awareness

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Speaker 1: because her pain centers are being struck. You know, you

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Speaker 1: can imagine it goes back to you know that old

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Speaker 1: adage about death by a thousand cuts. It's not necessarily

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Speaker 1: that you're going to die instentaneously by being stabbed or cut.

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Speaker 1: It's the totality and that's the term that we use

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Speaker 1: frequently in forensics, the totality of the injuries that she sustained,

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Speaker 1: and then you couple that with specific anatomical locations in

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Speaker 1: the body. What structures did these cuts impact beneath the surface?

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Speaker 1: Did they get down into major vessels where any of

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Speaker 1: her organs actually struck where she would begin to bleed

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Speaker 1: out internally? And again those are questions that would certainly

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Speaker 1: be answered in the morgue. But again, it wasn't the

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Speaker 1: stabbing that killed her. She was strangled. So her fight

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Speaker 1: or flight mechanism is both hindered and enhanced because she

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Speaker 1: obviously wants to protect her baby, but her body can't

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Speaker 1: move like she would if she wasn't nearly eight months pregnant.

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Speaker 1: All of us have seen women in the advanced stages

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Speaker 1: of pregnancy. I certainly add with my wife, and you

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Speaker 1: know that the longer you go, the more inhibited you

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Speaker 1: are physically. There's a certain things. Your backsache, and you're

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Speaker 1: constantly tired, you know, because you're carrying for two, you're

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Speaker 1: eating for two, you're ambulating for two, you're sleeping for two,

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Speaker 1: and so you're already drained. Any attempt to forward an attack,

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Speaker 1: and she's literally running on adrenaline at this point in time.

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Speaker 1: Her body is not at the same level of peak

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Speaker 1: performance as it would have been in life when she

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Speaker 1: was not pregnant. She may have been able to fend

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Speaker 1: off somebody that was smaller than her, for instance, But

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Speaker 1: in a case like this, where you've got this young

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Speaker 1: mother that is seven and a half months down the

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Speaker 1: road in a pregnancy, she's going to be so diminished

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Speaker 1: that she's not going to be able to fight off

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Speaker 1: an attacker. She's just not physically, she's changed metabolically. She

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Speaker 1: doesn't have the energy and the strength to continue on.

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Speaker 1: But this is the one thing that I can say.

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Speaker 1: It sounds as though to me at least, that she fought,

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Speaker 1: and she fought to the point where the attacker felt

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Speaker 1: the need to injure her. This many times, and certainly

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Speaker 1: in these various modes where we've got an asphyxial event,

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Speaker 1: we've got a bludgeoning or blunt force trauma event, and

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Speaker 1: we've got short force injuries. In my office, I've actually

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Speaker 1: got a scalpel handled, and it's not just any scalpel handle.

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Speaker 1: It is actually the first scalpel handler that I ever used.

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Speaker 1: In performing an autopsy, and the pathologist that I was

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Speaker 1: working with, he gave it to me and he said,

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Speaker 1: you'll want to have this someday you'll remember it. And

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Speaker 1: I do, and I have it there probably displayed on

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Speaker 1: my shelf in my office at the university. And the

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Speaker 1: reason I bring that up is that in this case,

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Speaker 1: there is an instrument involved in this homicide that, to

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Speaker 1: my recollection, the best of my recollection, I've never heard

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Speaker 1: of before, and that is whoever did this brought a

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Speaker 1: scalpel in order to facilitate Reagan's death and concurrently removal

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Speaker 1: of her unborn baby. The first question that popped into

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Speaker 1: my mind as you were talking, Joe, is where did

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Speaker 1: she get a scalpel? I mean, this is everybody thinks, oh,

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Speaker 1: it's a sharp knife, but I mean the scalpel is

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Speaker 1: a very precise, very specific instrument. And it's not like

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Speaker 1: you can go down to the you know, to the

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Speaker 1: drug store buy one, is it. No. I don't think

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Speaker 1: that you can assume that there are some places medical

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Speaker 1: supply houses and there are surgical supply locations, and I

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Speaker 1: don't think that they necessarily have to have a justification

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Speaker 1: for you to purchase these and keep in mind, I'm

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Speaker 1: almost positive that you can order scalpels online of I've

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Speaker 1: actually done it in forensics where you can you know

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Speaker 1: you can order them, particularly if you're going to do

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Speaker 1: postmortem dissections. And it's not like going out and buying

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Speaker 1: a weapon or something. You don't have to have some

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Speaker 1: kind of special license or anything like that. And I

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Speaker 1: don't know that it would necessarily raise any eyebrows if

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Speaker 1: you did it, But in this case, this person got

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Speaker 1: their hands on one, and I found it fascinating because

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Speaker 1: when you begin to think about preparation preparation of an

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Speaker 1: event of this type, it gives you an insight into

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Speaker 1: the planning that the individual would have had to have done.

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Speaker 1: The perpetrator in this case, this person is actually sitting

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Speaker 1: in their home thinking, Okay, I've got maybe a couple

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Speaker 1: of candidates here, I want a baby, and I've decided

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Speaker 1: I want this baby in particularly the one that Reagant

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Speaker 1: is carrying. What tools do I need? Do you see

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Speaker 1: how ghastly this becomes when you begin to follow this

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Speaker 1: line of logic. Look a standard C section that a

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Speaker 1: physician performs an OBG way in and I know many

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Speaker 1: in our audience of loved ones, and maybe many of

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Speaker 1: our listeners have had a C section. You have to

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Speaker 1: show up with the appropriate tools. It just makes sense, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's not like they're going to come to

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Speaker 1: your house and do the C section. I guess in

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Speaker 1: certain cases they would, maybe a midwife would have to

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Speaker 1: have that tool kit with them. But in this case,

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Speaker 1: you think about going to the hospital, you go into

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Speaker 1: labor and they say, well, it's not going to be

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Speaker 1: a vaginal delivery, We're going to have to do a

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Speaker 1: C section. Well, there is actually what's referred to as

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Speaker 1: a C section kit that trinic surgeons have at their disposal,

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Speaker 1: and these things are literally just kind of laid out

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Speaker 1: on the table by the surgical text and the nurses,

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Speaker 1: and when mama gets prepped, they have everything at their

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Speaker 1: disposal because they've anticipated all possible outcomes, I mean all

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Speaker 1: possible outcomes because they've delivered so many babies via C section.

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Speaker 1: And in this case, you really wonder what else was

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Speaker 1: in the perpetrator's toolback. Was it just simply a scalpel?

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Speaker 1: Did she show up with mets and bomb scissors? Did

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Speaker 1: she show up wait wait wait, mets and bomb scissors,

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Speaker 1: which is a very scissors, Yeah, mets and bomb scissors,

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Speaker 1: which which are well, they're they're very particular to surgical

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Speaker 1: practice and it's something that you would find in an

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Speaker 1: obstetrician's kit. In order to do this, you also have

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Speaker 1: to have retractors, which are going to kind of hold

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Speaker 1: back to tissue. Remember, one of the things that you're

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Speaker 1: doing in a C section delivery is your actually going

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Speaker 1: through the abdominal wall and then into the top of

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Speaker 1: the uterus. This is not something that is going to

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Speaker 1: stay in place. It has to be retracted, kind of

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Speaker 1: pulled away in order to remove the baby from the

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Speaker 1: mother's tummy. These are all items and there's a whole variety.

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Speaker 1: I mean, people can look this up. There's a whole

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Speaker 1: list of these items that come in a kit. But

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Speaker 1: do you think about the person that would sit down

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Speaker 1: and do this that they would think about, well, what

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Speaker 1: do I need to show up with? Well, at a baseline,

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Speaker 1: they're showing up with a scalpel. And there's a very

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Speaker 1: particular way that surgeons train surgeons go about this. And

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Speaker 1: here's something kind of interesting that a lot of people

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Speaker 1: don't understand. When surgeons make incisions into bodies, for instance,

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Speaker 1: c sections and an example, in a standard operating environmental

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Speaker 1: surgical environment, they follow what are referred to most of

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Speaker 1: the time, not every time, okay, but most of the time,

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Speaker 1: they're going to follow what are called the languor line.

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Speaker 1: And for all of my veterans that are in the audience,

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Speaker 1: any of us that have ever been through basic training,

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Speaker 1: particularly in the Army and the Marine Corps, you have

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Speaker 1: to learn to read a contour map. Well. Languor lines

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Speaker 1: are actually the contours of the body, isn't that something?

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Speaker 1: So the body actually has its own grain to it.

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Speaker 1: You don't see it, but it's there, and surgeons study

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Speaker 1: this and what happens is is that when you go

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Speaker 1: against the grain on a body, okay, when you go

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Speaker 1: against the grain on a body and you attempt to

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Speaker 1: cut across these their lines of tension is actually what

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Speaker 1: it is. When you go across those lines of tension,

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Speaker 1: then you get these ghastly wounds. And that's one of

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Speaker 1: the reasons that okay, let me stop you. Yeah, sure,

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Speaker 1: because I want to make sure that I understand this.

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Speaker 1: And I do not mean I am not trying to

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Speaker 1: make light of anything, but I can't obviously imagine cutting

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Speaker 1: a person. So let's say I was cutting a steak. Yes,

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Speaker 1: So basically what you're telling me is is like cutting

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Speaker 1: across the grain if you're trying to trim or cut

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Speaker 1: a stage. Yeah, kind kind of like that. And for

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Speaker 1: folks that don't really fully grasp this, I'll give you

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Speaker 1: even a better example. If anyone has ever had a

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Speaker 1: nasty blunt force laceration that occurs on the top of

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Speaker 1: your head or anywhere on your body where you impact

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Speaker 1: a location, if you've ever heard a term or someone

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Speaker 1: m the description of the injury as being a jagged laceration,

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Speaker 1: the reason it's jagged is because that impact area has

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Speaker 1: gone against the grain, against the languor lines, and so

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Speaker 1: it opens up in a very nasty fashion. So if

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Speaker 1: you don't know what you're doing, you're going to have

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Speaker 1: this presentation, and particularly where you've got this young mother

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Speaker 1: that's fighting for her life and apparently in this particular case,

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Speaker 1: the authorities believe at least that Reagan mercifully was actually deceased.

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Speaker 1: When you know, this perpetrator opened up her womb and

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Speaker 1: remove this precious angel. So you not only have to

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Speaker 1: have the right instruments, obviously, a scalpel is going to

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Speaker 1: be your number one item, but something sharp to do

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Speaker 1: this with. But the main thing you have to worry

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Speaker 1: about is if you are the perpetrator, how you do

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Speaker 1: the C section to not injure the baby, because, let's

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Speaker 1: be realistic, there's nothing delicate about what was done to Reagan.

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Speaker 1: There's nothing delicate about this, but you have to be

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Speaker 1: delicate if you are trying to save a child. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: and if it is the desire of a perpetrator in

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Speaker 1: case like this to have a viable baby, the technique

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Speaker 1: which is employed here is going to be critical because

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Speaker 1: just entering the body, you're going through the external abdominal

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Speaker 1: wall here, which you have a layer of skin, and

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Speaker 1: then you have a layer of subcue fact that you

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Speaker 1: can go through, and then any kind of fascia, which

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Speaker 1: is kind of that white tissue that's on the back

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00:23:00,080 --> 00:23:02,720
Speaker 1: side of the normal wall, and then you get down

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Speaker 1: to the organs. You're going to get down into the uterus,

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Speaker 1: the top of the us, the roof of it as

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Speaker 1: they have referred to it, and you've got all kinds

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Speaker 1: of other structures that are in there too. If you

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Speaker 1: don't know enough about anatomy, if you're trying to get

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Speaker 1: a viable child. Then you can clip other things as

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Speaker 1: well that might send a mother into a cardiac arrest.

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Speaker 1: So you have to be careful. And that's why you

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Speaker 1: know things like force ups. We refer to them as pickups,

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Speaker 1: which tweezers some people might think about that. We use

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Speaker 1: big force ups. You know, you have to lift the

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Speaker 1: roof of the uterus before you can make the incision,

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Speaker 1: because this is the problem that you run up against.

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Speaker 1: If you're not skilled at what you're doing, you're going

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Speaker 1: to harm the child. And that's all I will say

400
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Speaker 1: about that point, because it's so ghastly. Beyond that, there's

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Speaker 1: a term that we use in the forensics. It's called masceration,

402
00:23:47,119 --> 00:23:50,639
Speaker 1: which is where you have mascerated organs, and I've seen

403
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Speaker 1: mascerated children as well, and it's a total destruction within

404
00:23:54,240 --> 00:23:57,639
Speaker 1: the womb in various case and in this case, it

405
00:23:57,720 --> 00:24:01,760
Speaker 1: appears that this little lange was the end of game here.

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Speaker 1: That's what this perpetrator wanted. Jackie is so sad in

407
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Speaker 1: Regan's home, in her own home where she should feel

408
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Speaker 1: safe and protected. There on that floor, the child was

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Speaker 1: delivered into this world, and Regan's body just kind of

410
00:24:18,240 --> 00:24:21,879
Speaker 1: laid there, twisted and having bled out and dead, and

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Speaker 1: perpetrator left with a bank. There are babies that do

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Speaker 1: survive outside the womb as young as twenty two weeks

413
00:24:50,960 --> 00:24:54,920
Speaker 1: gestational age, but it's you have to be on top

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Speaker 1: of things. I mean, you have to be there with

415
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Speaker 1: a mother that has given birth, a hospital that has

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Speaker 1: neo natal intensive care unit and NICK and you have

417
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:07,160
Speaker 1: to have skilled people that are all around. Thank God

418
00:25:07,160 --> 00:25:11,240
Speaker 1: for those people. But in this case, this child was

419
00:25:11,280 --> 00:25:15,399
Speaker 1: down range about seven and a half months. In the

420
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Speaker 1: normal gestational age at birth is somewhere, you know, varies

421
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Speaker 1: at thirty eight, thirty nine, forty weeks. It's generally what

422
00:25:21,200 --> 00:25:23,560
Speaker 1: they're looking at. But in this case, the baby was

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00:25:23,600 --> 00:25:27,800
Speaker 1: removed at seven and a half months. While Jess Brooks

424
00:25:27,880 --> 00:25:30,760
Speaker 1: was finding her daughter lying dead on her living room floor.

425
00:25:31,440 --> 00:25:35,600
Speaker 1: Across the state, a Texas State trooper was pulling over

426
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Speaker 1: a car for speeding and inside he finds Taylor Parker,

427
00:25:40,840 --> 00:25:44,919
Speaker 1: who ultimately is the perpetrator in this case, giving CPR

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Speaker 1: to a newborn and Parker told the trooper that she

429
00:25:49,440 --> 00:25:51,320
Speaker 1: gave birth on the side of the road, but the

430
00:25:51,359 --> 00:25:54,960
Speaker 1: baby wasn't breathing, and the trooper said he could see

431
00:25:55,040 --> 00:25:59,080
Speaker 1: an umbilical cord connected to the infant coming out of

432
00:25:59,119 --> 00:26:02,280
Speaker 1: the female's pen out of the Parker's pants, and then

433
00:26:02,400 --> 00:26:06,879
Speaker 1: Parker and the newborn were rushed to a hospital and

434
00:26:07,080 --> 00:26:11,159
Speaker 1: the baby died. But not only was the umbilical cord

435
00:26:11,720 --> 00:26:19,160
Speaker 1: stuffed down Parker's pants, but the placenta was also inside

436
00:26:19,680 --> 00:26:23,800
Speaker 1: Parker's pants, giving the impression that she had given birth.

437
00:26:24,720 --> 00:26:28,120
Speaker 1: How did she get it? Where did it come from?

438
00:26:28,400 --> 00:26:32,160
Speaker 1: Explain to us most of us have heard the term placenta.

439
00:26:32,480 --> 00:26:37,440
Speaker 1: Tell us what it is. The placenta is that it's

440
00:26:37,520 --> 00:26:42,560
Speaker 1: the sack that literally provides a protected environment for the

441
00:26:42,600 --> 00:26:48,080
Speaker 1: developing baby, and the baby is contained within the sack

442
00:26:48,359 --> 00:26:51,639
Speaker 1: kind of free floating in there, cushioned from the outside

443
00:26:51,640 --> 00:26:55,160
Speaker 1: world or in addition to the cushioning that the mother's

444
00:26:55,160 --> 00:26:59,760
Speaker 1: wound creates as well. But it is essential for life. Okay,

445
00:27:00,080 --> 00:27:02,720
Speaker 1: you have the umbilical cord that is in dwelling there,

446
00:27:02,760 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: that's providing nourishment for the baby from the mother. The placenta.

447
00:27:07,359 --> 00:27:10,120
Speaker 1: It's a further guarantee of viability that the child will

448
00:27:10,200 --> 00:27:13,879
Speaker 1: develop to the point where the child can survive outside

449
00:27:14,080 --> 00:27:18,600
Speaker 1: of the mother's body. And I think that anybody that

450
00:27:18,720 --> 00:27:21,600
Speaker 1: was thinking about kind of pulling this off, and anticipating

451
00:27:21,800 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 1: pulling this off, they knew enough that they would have

452
00:27:25,560 --> 00:27:30,080
Speaker 1: to present with these three elements. Obviously, you mentioned the placenta,

453
00:27:30,240 --> 00:27:32,960
Speaker 1: the umbilical cord as well as the baby. And it's

454
00:27:33,000 --> 00:27:35,680
Speaker 1: interesting that the umbilical cord is still attached to the baby.

455
00:27:35,680 --> 00:27:38,200
Speaker 1: You know that, And I can reflect back to my

456
00:27:38,960 --> 00:27:41,399
Speaker 1: precious children all those years ago when I had the

457
00:27:41,440 --> 00:27:44,040
Speaker 1: privilege of snipping the umbilical cord. And I'm sure that

458
00:27:44,080 --> 00:27:45,760
Speaker 1: many people in the audience have heard of this and

459
00:27:45,800 --> 00:27:48,680
Speaker 1: maybe even experienced it as well. It's a great moment time.

460
00:27:48,720 --> 00:27:51,800
Speaker 1: But in this case, the child was there and she

461
00:27:51,920 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 1: tried to feign pregnancy, and I think from a just

462
00:27:56,960 --> 00:28:02,280
Speaker 1: a demonstrative standpoint, this person believes that if she presents

463
00:28:03,040 --> 00:28:07,000
Speaker 1: with the placenta and with the umbilical cord and not

464
00:28:07,080 --> 00:28:10,600
Speaker 1: just a baby, it's going to further convince the medical

465
00:28:10,640 --> 00:28:13,399
Speaker 1: staff at whatever hospital she winds up in that she

466
00:28:13,640 --> 00:28:17,560
Speaker 1: is actually the birth mother. I would imagine for the

467
00:28:17,600 --> 00:28:21,600
Speaker 1: state trooper that was involved in this, they probably were

468
00:28:21,720 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: kind of scratching their head too. Maybe for a moment

469
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:27,040
Speaker 1: they thought, oh wow, they're witnessing a miracle here. But

470
00:28:27,200 --> 00:28:30,119
Speaker 1: after they begin to think about this and they're assessing

471
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,520
Speaker 1: this individual that is telling them the story, a trooper

472
00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:38,040
Speaker 1: doesn't have any choice whatsoever but to get an ambulance

473
00:28:38,160 --> 00:28:41,320
Speaker 1: en route as quickly as possible what we call CO

474
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:44,960
Speaker 1: three lights and irons and roll into that location and

475
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,880
Speaker 1: placing this person and the baby and the ambulance to

476
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:49,640
Speaker 1: get them to the hospital. And you know, I think

477
00:28:49,680 --> 00:28:52,120
Speaker 1: that that was the goal all the way along. That's

478
00:28:52,160 --> 00:28:56,480
Speaker 1: the reason that these elements and evidence in this person's

479
00:28:56,480 --> 00:28:59,840
Speaker 1: mind of birth were necessary. She's running a game here,

480
00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,920
Speaker 1: and it's horrible as it sounds. These are props. That's

481
00:29:02,920 --> 00:29:05,840
Speaker 1: what this comes down to it. It's horrible the props

482
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:08,920
Speaker 1: that have been delivered from Reagan. This poor woman who's

483
00:29:09,040 --> 00:29:12,000
Speaker 1: been butchered in her home. These are props to try

484
00:29:12,040 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 1: to feign a pregnancy and give the impression that she's

485
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: given birth. And it isn't it amazing that she's traveling

486
00:29:20,800 --> 00:29:23,560
Speaker 1: with this child? And I can't really even imagine what's

487
00:29:23,600 --> 00:29:26,320
Speaker 1: going on in this person's mind, is rolling down the

488
00:29:26,360 --> 00:29:29,160
Speaker 1: road to the hospital, is seeking help because they want

489
00:29:29,160 --> 00:29:32,320
Speaker 1: the child to be viable. They have been feigning that

490
00:29:32,360 --> 00:29:34,720
Speaker 1: they are the mother, and how are you going to

491
00:29:34,760 --> 00:29:37,160
Speaker 1: convince the medical staff trust me? This is not the

492
00:29:37,200 --> 00:29:40,320
Speaker 1: medical staffs first rodeo. They have seen mothers that have

493
00:29:40,440 --> 00:29:43,680
Speaker 1: walked into the AR, have been driven to the AR,

494
00:29:43,920 --> 00:29:46,959
Speaker 1: that have given birth outside the hospital. So they're looking

495
00:29:47,000 --> 00:29:51,680
Speaker 1: for particular things like what Joe, because Taylor Parker when

496
00:29:51,760 --> 00:29:57,600
Speaker 1: she got to the hospital refused, originally refused to be

497
00:29:57,800 --> 00:30:01,680
Speaker 1: checked by a doctor, knowing that they would obviously see

498
00:30:01,720 --> 00:30:04,960
Speaker 1: the details that would prove that she hadn't given birth,

499
00:30:05,000 --> 00:30:07,760
Speaker 1: But can you kind of guide me through that the

500
00:30:07,880 --> 00:30:10,480
Speaker 1: body differences that would have been the big bred polis

501
00:30:10,520 --> 00:30:14,200
Speaker 1: to say, oh no, that's not what happened here. Well, yeah,

502
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:17,920
Speaker 1: I mean just essentially, if you're looking at this person

503
00:30:18,120 --> 00:30:21,720
Speaker 1: and assessing them, which physicians do in the emergency, nurses

504
00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000
Speaker 1: do too. Nurses are probably even better at it than

505
00:30:24,080 --> 00:30:26,200
Speaker 1: the doctors. Doctor is going to treat you in and out.

506
00:30:26,200 --> 00:30:29,080
Speaker 1: But I love nurses in this sense. They can figure

507
00:30:29,080 --> 00:30:31,760
Speaker 1: things out real real quickly. They're real and tune to

508
00:30:31,760 --> 00:30:34,600
Speaker 1: this sort of thing. So they're looking at her presentation

509
00:30:35,200 --> 00:30:38,640
Speaker 1: relative to her body. The way she's responding, is this

510
00:30:38,680 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: the way a postpartum mother would be responding? In this

511
00:30:43,080 --> 00:30:46,960
Speaker 1: moment relative to her ability to speak, her orientation to

512
00:30:46,960 --> 00:30:50,120
Speaker 1: time and space. Is there any kind of bleeding? Do

513
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:53,440
Speaker 1: they still see bleeding issuing out? I mean you'd mentioned

514
00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:58,320
Speaker 1: that the placenta was actually contained within her pants, okay,

515
00:30:58,360 --> 00:31:01,480
Speaker 1: and then the umbilical cord was leading from there to

516
00:31:01,680 --> 00:31:06,360
Speaker 1: this little angel's body. What was there continued bleeding Because

517
00:31:06,520 --> 00:31:09,840
Speaker 1: with a vaginal birth, you're still going to have bleeding

518
00:31:10,000 --> 00:31:13,680
Speaker 1: if things have not been assessed and treated properly at

519
00:31:13,680 --> 00:31:16,479
Speaker 1: that moment in time and the first few moments of

520
00:31:16,520 --> 00:31:20,680
Speaker 1: the postpartum state. It requires rest, it requires down time

521
00:31:20,760 --> 00:31:22,520
Speaker 1: on the mother, and she's not presenting that way, And

522
00:31:22,520 --> 00:31:25,560
Speaker 1: then I would imagine they would think it's very curious

523
00:31:25,920 --> 00:31:29,280
Speaker 1: that this individual would not want to be assessed that

524
00:31:29,360 --> 00:31:31,560
Speaker 1: you know, they don't want to disrobe, they don't want

525
00:31:31,600 --> 00:31:34,000
Speaker 1: them to take a look at them. And with a

526
00:31:34,040 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 1: vaginal birth, one of the assessments that's made you prior

527
00:31:37,200 --> 00:31:41,760
Speaker 1: to delivery vaginally is that they have these markers for

528
00:31:41,800 --> 00:31:44,920
Speaker 1: what's referred to as dilation. And this is a natural

529
00:31:44,960 --> 00:31:49,320
Speaker 1: occurrence where the vaginal opening is beginning to open further

530
00:31:49,400 --> 00:31:51,720
Speaker 1: and further, and you know, you go to dilation relative

531
00:31:51,960 --> 00:31:54,600
Speaker 1: in it's measured in centimeters. One of the obvious things

532
00:31:54,600 --> 00:31:58,440
Speaker 1: that you would look for is what she dilated at all?

533
00:31:58,800 --> 00:32:01,320
Speaker 1: Is there any evidence of that? Because if she hasn't

534
00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,760
Speaker 1: given birth, then the vagina and the vaginal opening is

535
00:32:04,760 --> 00:32:08,520
Speaker 1: going to appear in its normal state. And so how

536
00:32:08,520 --> 00:32:11,600
Speaker 1: do you explain the fact that you have this baby,

537
00:32:11,800 --> 00:32:16,200
Speaker 1: You have this baby with the abilical cord still attached,

538
00:32:16,840 --> 00:32:20,680
Speaker 1: and there's no evidence of a birth per their fiscal examination.

539
00:32:20,880 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: I can't even begin to fathom the reaction of the

540
00:32:24,320 --> 00:32:26,719
Speaker 1: medical staff as they're standing there. They're probably eyeball on

541
00:32:26,720 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 1: one another and thinking, you know, what the hell is

542
00:32:29,040 --> 00:32:33,640
Speaker 1: going on here? I can't imagine that this is actually

543
00:32:34,000 --> 00:32:37,040
Speaker 1: her child because there's no evidence of this. We must

544
00:32:37,080 --> 00:32:42,000
Speaker 1: be witnessing a miracle. Either that or she's lying to us. Ultimately,

545
00:32:42,040 --> 00:32:46,200
Speaker 1: this baby died. Did the baby die because it was

546
00:32:46,240 --> 00:32:50,239
Speaker 1: not viable? Did it die? Do you think because it

547
00:32:50,360 --> 00:32:54,240
Speaker 1: was injured during the horrific removal from its mother's body.

548
00:32:54,960 --> 00:32:59,240
Speaker 1: Now I think that this is a grievously traumatic situation

549
00:32:59,280 --> 00:33:02,760
Speaker 1: for this baby to have survived in. First off, you've

550
00:33:02,800 --> 00:33:05,160
Speaker 1: got this, you know, this kind of adrenaline rush that's

551
00:33:05,160 --> 00:33:07,480
Speaker 1: going on with a mother where she's fighting for her life.

552
00:33:07,520 --> 00:33:10,480
Speaker 1: That's going to impact I think some folks might disagree,

553
00:33:10,520 --> 00:33:12,560
Speaker 1: but I think that that's going to impact the baby's

554
00:33:12,680 --> 00:33:18,040
Speaker 1: ability to survive. Additionally, we don't actually know what kind

555
00:33:18,080 --> 00:33:21,760
Speaker 1: of trauma may have been inflicted on this child, you know,

556
00:33:21,920 --> 00:33:25,880
Speaker 1: during the course of this just barbaric act that this

557
00:33:26,600 --> 00:33:29,880
Speaker 1: person perpetrated on Reagan. And then you have to think

558
00:33:29,920 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: about post delivery care of a child. You know, there's

559
00:33:32,440 --> 00:33:34,760
Speaker 1: certain things that have to be done with a baby,

560
00:33:35,040 --> 00:33:36,640
Speaker 1: and I think a lot of us have this image

561
00:33:36,640 --> 00:33:39,000
Speaker 1: of the old timy doctor inverting a baby by their

562
00:33:39,040 --> 00:33:42,040
Speaker 1: ankles and spinking on the backside and the baby starts squalling,

563
00:33:42,360 --> 00:33:45,600
Speaker 1: And obviously that's something that has occurred and still does

564
00:33:45,720 --> 00:33:48,200
Speaker 1: curb you. Now you begin to think about suctioning the

565
00:33:48,240 --> 00:33:51,240
Speaker 1: baby's nose, checking the baby's vitals to see if they're

566
00:33:51,280 --> 00:33:55,080
Speaker 1: all within norm parameters, and we cannot forget that even

567
00:33:55,120 --> 00:33:57,840
Speaker 1: though seven and a half months is in fact viable,

568
00:33:58,000 --> 00:34:00,800
Speaker 1: you're still talking about a premature baby at this point.

569
00:34:01,360 --> 00:34:04,640
Speaker 1: And every baby is different, Okay, every baby is different

570
00:34:04,680 --> 00:34:09,719
Speaker 1: relative to the gestational development. Are their lungs sufficient to

571
00:34:09,760 --> 00:34:13,200
Speaker 1: the task in order to handle breathing? At that point

572
00:34:13,200 --> 00:34:16,719
Speaker 1: in time processing of oxygen. Is the heart sufficient to

573
00:34:16,760 --> 00:34:20,480
Speaker 1: the task in order to have appropriate circulation throughout the body.

574
00:34:20,719 --> 00:34:24,000
Speaker 1: There's all kinds of metabolic considerations with a child, and

575
00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: of course you've got this huge gap in time because

576
00:34:27,560 --> 00:34:30,880
Speaker 1: of this horrible act where we don't really know how

577
00:34:30,960 --> 00:34:34,920
Speaker 1: much time had elapsed since her baby was stolen from her,

578
00:34:35,000 --> 00:34:37,560
Speaker 1: from Reagan's body within her home, to the point that

579
00:34:38,360 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: this person was finally pulled over by the state troopers.

580
00:34:42,680 --> 00:34:45,800
Speaker 1: You were talking about being prepared to do this act

581
00:34:45,800 --> 00:34:49,520
Speaker 1: to remove the baby from its mother's womb outside of

582
00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:55,319
Speaker 1: a surgical suite. And what's really interesting is to learn that,

583
00:34:55,400 --> 00:35:00,200
Speaker 1: according to testimony in this trial, Taylor Parker bought a

584
00:35:00,280 --> 00:35:04,280
Speaker 1: fake baby bump. She posted pictures on her social media

585
00:35:04,760 --> 00:35:08,040
Speaker 1: saying that she was pregnant. She had internet searches on

586
00:35:08,080 --> 00:35:12,720
Speaker 1: her devices, a fake ultrasound scan online, a purchase dozens

587
00:35:12,760 --> 00:35:17,400
Speaker 1: of baby belly photos and selfies. She stopped ob clinics

588
00:35:17,719 --> 00:35:21,640
Speaker 1: in East Texas and Shreveport looking for places where she

589
00:35:21,680 --> 00:35:25,640
Speaker 1: could find pregnant women, even looking up the license plates

590
00:35:25,640 --> 00:35:29,839
Speaker 1: of patients coming out. She searched online for private adoptions

591
00:35:30,480 --> 00:35:35,480
Speaker 1: and out of hospital birth certificates, and according to testimony,

592
00:35:36,080 --> 00:35:40,040
Speaker 1: she even watched videos just days before the murder on

593
00:35:40,080 --> 00:35:44,120
Speaker 1: how to do with C section and how to examine

594
00:35:44,120 --> 00:35:46,880
Speaker 1: a newborn, and there was even a spoof cell phone

595
00:35:46,960 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 1: number used to contact Reagan Hancock. What are your final thoughts, Joe,

596
00:35:53,680 --> 00:35:57,279
Speaker 1: when you begin to think about this kind of prosthetic

597
00:35:57,360 --> 00:36:01,320
Speaker 1: device that's being used to try to fool everybody into

598
00:36:01,440 --> 00:36:04,120
Speaker 1: thinking that you're with child. The imagery you know that

599
00:36:04,200 --> 00:36:08,040
Speaker 1: you're you're generating off off of the Internet, and the

600
00:36:08,200 --> 00:36:12,520
Speaker 1: idea that you're in a celebratory mood going in to

601
00:36:12,719 --> 00:36:16,160
Speaker 1: this butchery is what it comes down to. This baby

602
00:36:16,880 --> 00:36:21,400
Speaker 1: and Reagan both. I never had a chance. So at

603
00:36:21,400 --> 00:36:25,799
Speaker 1: the conclusion of her trial, Taylor and A Parker twenty nine,

604
00:36:26,120 --> 00:36:31,600
Speaker 1: was found guilty of murdering Reagan Michelle Simmons Hancock, who

605
00:36:31,680 --> 00:36:38,520
Speaker 1: was only twenty one years of age. I'm Joseph Scott

606
00:36:38,560 --> 00:36:41,520
Speaker 1: Morgan and this is body backs