1 00:00:05,400 --> 00:00:09,320 Speaker 1: Crime Stories with Nancy Grace on Sirius XM Triumph Channel 2 00:00:09,400 --> 00:00:12,639 Speaker 1: one thirty two. Tampa police on the hunt for a 3 00:00:12,720 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: killer after the shooting debts of three people in ten days. 4 00:00:15,560 --> 00:00:18,520 Speaker 1: We will hunt this son of a down until we 5 00:00:18,640 --> 00:00:21,520 Speaker 1: find the three victims gunned down less than half a 6 00:00:21,560 --> 00:00:25,360 Speaker 1: mile apart. Tampa's mayor doing what he can to reassure 7 00:00:25,360 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: the public so that they've added a thousand streetlights to 8 00:00:27,520 --> 00:00:29,800 Speaker 1: the Seminal Heights neighborhood and that they won't stop until 9 00:00:29,800 --> 00:00:32,080 Speaker 1: that killer is caught. Nobody comes into our house and 10 00:00:32,080 --> 00:00:35,320 Speaker 1: does this not now, not ever. Authorities pouring over the 11 00:00:35,440 --> 00:00:38,000 Speaker 1: ringing surveillance video for clues, looking at this person of 12 00:00:38,040 --> 00:00:40,479 Speaker 1: interest walking alone, wearing a hood on the night of 13 00:00:40,520 --> 00:00:43,320 Speaker 1: the first killing. I need that Seminole Heights community to 14 00:00:43,400 --> 00:00:45,720 Speaker 1: stand up and I need them to point out who 15 00:00:45,760 --> 00:00:49,199 Speaker 1: that man is. You guys, go hunt him down and 16 00:00:49,200 --> 00:00:52,040 Speaker 1: bring his head to me. Fear of a serial killer 17 00:00:52,280 --> 00:00:57,040 Speaker 1: is paralyzing a Florida community as it stands right now, 18 00:00:57,240 --> 00:01:02,920 Speaker 1: Three dead within one thousand seat of each other, joining 19 00:01:02,920 --> 00:01:06,040 Speaker 1: me right now. Meredithinceulo with w f L A t 20 00:01:06,200 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 1: V on the same Meredith, what do we know now? 21 00:01:09,920 --> 00:01:12,720 Speaker 1: We're still looking for answers. All we know is that 22 00:01:12,840 --> 00:01:17,120 Speaker 1: three younger adults were killed. Uh. They were shot all 23 00:01:17,160 --> 00:01:21,200 Speaker 1: in the evening during weekdays near a bus stop in 24 00:01:21,360 --> 00:01:23,959 Speaker 1: the neighborhood of Seminal Heights, which is about five minutes 25 00:01:24,040 --> 00:01:27,600 Speaker 1: from downtown Tampa. We do have Tampa Police out in 26 00:01:27,760 --> 00:01:31,640 Speaker 1: force throughout the neighborhood. They've also pulled in law enforcement 27 00:01:31,680 --> 00:01:35,440 Speaker 1: agencies from throughout the Tampa Bay Area to patrol and 28 00:01:35,600 --> 00:01:38,640 Speaker 1: UH the mayor here very worked up. He wants answers, 29 00:01:38,800 --> 00:01:43,240 Speaker 1: and he's very angry that someone is terrorizing our area 30 00:01:43,360 --> 00:01:46,800 Speaker 1: like this because it's it's like a phantom came into 31 00:01:46,840 --> 00:01:51,080 Speaker 1: this neighborhood. Um, someone is shooting people and disappearing into 32 00:01:51,120 --> 00:01:55,160 Speaker 1: thin air. Uh. One of those victims was shot within 33 00:01:55,560 --> 00:01:59,720 Speaker 1: blocks of one of those heightened police patrols. Officers actually 34 00:02:00,200 --> 00:02:04,080 Speaker 1: the shot ran to try to help, and when they arrived, 35 00:02:04,120 --> 00:02:07,440 Speaker 1: the young autistic man was was laying there dead. And 36 00:02:07,640 --> 00:02:10,880 Speaker 1: we just don't have any answers um right now. What 37 00:02:10,960 --> 00:02:14,160 Speaker 1: Tampa police have done. Uh, they are calling for all 38 00:02:14,320 --> 00:02:18,000 Speaker 1: surveillance video from anyone's home in the neighborhood, whether they 39 00:02:18,000 --> 00:02:21,280 Speaker 1: think they've captured something on camera or not. They want 40 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,240 Speaker 1: all of that, and they are literally watching these videos 41 00:02:24,320 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: in real time just to look for anything. Right now, 42 00:02:28,560 --> 00:02:31,519 Speaker 1: the only thing that's been released is one video from 43 00:02:31,520 --> 00:02:34,880 Speaker 1: the night of the first murder, and on that video 44 00:02:35,000 --> 00:02:37,320 Speaker 1: you can see what appears to be a man walking 45 00:02:37,360 --> 00:02:40,480 Speaker 1: down a street. We don't know who that man is. Uh. 46 00:02:40,520 --> 00:02:43,359 Speaker 1: There is a reward for information to anyone that can 47 00:02:43,480 --> 00:02:46,560 Speaker 1: lead them to this man, but at this point that's 48 00:02:46,600 --> 00:02:49,400 Speaker 1: the only person of interest there is in this case, 49 00:02:49,600 --> 00:02:52,079 Speaker 1: and we don't even know if that person was involved 50 00:02:52,360 --> 00:02:54,799 Speaker 1: in these murders. Take a listen to the morning roll 51 00:02:54,960 --> 00:02:58,959 Speaker 1: call at the police department. We're going to get this on. 52 00:02:59,400 --> 00:03:01,240 Speaker 1: You heard me say the other day. We're gonna hunt 53 00:03:01,240 --> 00:03:03,520 Speaker 1: this sum down until we catch him, and it's gonna 54 00:03:03,560 --> 00:03:05,399 Speaker 1: be you guys, and it's gonna be great police work, 55 00:03:06,040 --> 00:03:10,640 Speaker 1: doing what you guys do every day every day. This 56 00:03:10,680 --> 00:03:14,080 Speaker 1: guy is not gonna win. He's not taking over this neighborhood, 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:17,520 Speaker 1: he's not taking over these streets. You guys, go hunt 58 00:03:17,600 --> 00:03:20,600 Speaker 1: him down and bring his bring his head to me, 59 00:03:21,200 --> 00:03:26,079 Speaker 1: all right. Twenty two year old Benjamin Mitchell dead, thirty 60 00:03:26,120 --> 00:03:30,160 Speaker 1: two year old Monica Hoffa dead, twenty year old Anthony 61 00:03:30,360 --> 00:03:35,520 Speaker 1: Noboa dad, All of them, we believe victims of the 62 00:03:35,600 --> 00:03:40,200 Speaker 1: so called Tampa serial killer. When will it end? How 63 00:03:40,200 --> 00:03:44,440 Speaker 1: did it start? Are their victims? Preceding this? To Cheryl McCollum, 64 00:03:44,480 --> 00:03:47,320 Speaker 1: do you think it's feasible that there have been other 65 00:03:47,440 --> 00:03:50,400 Speaker 1: victims of the same guy that are not connected, that 66 00:03:50,480 --> 00:03:54,800 Speaker 1: occurred before these three. I absolutely believe he has attempted 67 00:03:54,920 --> 00:03:57,680 Speaker 1: something before, whether it was an armed robbery to see 68 00:03:57,680 --> 00:03:59,680 Speaker 1: how it went, or whether he used the knights the 69 00:03:59,720 --> 00:04:02,480 Speaker 1: first come. I don't think there's any questions he had 70 00:04:02,600 --> 00:04:06,520 Speaker 1: something prior to these events, no doubt. Every morning, Tampa 71 00:04:06,520 --> 00:04:10,240 Speaker 1: police watching over children as they wait at their school 72 00:04:10,240 --> 00:04:15,320 Speaker 1: bus stops. City workers have cleared away debris from Alley's. 73 00:04:17,080 --> 00:04:20,040 Speaker 1: Burned out street lights have been replaced. It's gonna make 74 00:04:20,040 --> 00:04:22,440 Speaker 1: it harder for anyone to hide in the shadows. But 75 00:04:23,560 --> 00:04:26,520 Speaker 1: this guy was caught on video. If it's the right 76 00:04:26,600 --> 00:04:30,560 Speaker 1: guy and there were lights and there was video surveillance, 77 00:04:31,320 --> 00:04:34,920 Speaker 1: Tampa Police Chief Brian Dugan released new video last night 78 00:04:34,960 --> 00:04:38,120 Speaker 1: showing this person of interest and an odd habit. This 79 00:04:38,160 --> 00:04:42,640 Speaker 1: person seems to have repeatedly flipping the smartphone with the 80 00:04:42,760 --> 00:04:45,680 Speaker 1: right hand like a nervous habit. Listeners can see the 81 00:04:45,720 --> 00:04:48,560 Speaker 1: new video in this story that accompanies our podcast on 82 00:04:48,720 --> 00:04:53,760 Speaker 1: Nancy's website crime online dot com. Here's Chief Dugan and 83 00:04:53,800 --> 00:04:57,159 Speaker 1: then you're gonna see his hand, his right hand, he 84 00:04:57,200 --> 00:05:01,920 Speaker 1: appears to flip his phone and its significan again we think, 85 00:05:02,279 --> 00:05:04,719 Speaker 1: but it could be a habit. Maybe many people do it. 86 00:05:05,480 --> 00:05:08,080 Speaker 1: So just watch this and work through me with this. 87 00:05:08,480 --> 00:05:11,320 Speaker 1: And we want everyone at home to start looking at 88 00:05:11,360 --> 00:05:13,360 Speaker 1: this video and tell us what to do what they 89 00:05:13,400 --> 00:05:16,600 Speaker 1: think of it. You see he takes the phone. I 90 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:19,360 Speaker 1: think it's a heat but it could be anybody either 91 00:05:19,480 --> 00:05:24,960 Speaker 1: right front pocket. Watch his right hand, the flip of 92 00:05:25,000 --> 00:05:29,440 Speaker 1: the phone. Now it looks as he's looking at his 93 00:05:29,480 --> 00:05:35,839 Speaker 1: phone or her. This is all before the shooting and 94 00:05:35,920 --> 00:05:38,040 Speaker 1: this and you can see where some of the video 95 00:05:38,240 --> 00:05:41,559 Speaker 1: is not clear. But in my opinion, if you knew 96 00:05:41,600 --> 00:05:44,440 Speaker 1: who this person was, if you were to if if 97 00:05:44,480 --> 00:05:46,640 Speaker 1: that were me and that video, I have to believe 98 00:05:46,680 --> 00:05:50,320 Speaker 1: that my neighbors would be able to identify me. Okay, 99 00:05:50,720 --> 00:05:53,200 Speaker 1: now this is important. The next video clip that you 100 00:05:53,240 --> 00:05:56,039 Speaker 1: see is gonna be very important, and you're gonna see 101 00:05:56,040 --> 00:05:59,120 Speaker 1: why we think this is a person of interest. I 102 00:05:59,160 --> 00:06:02,640 Speaker 1: am completely a comfortable and calling this person this is 103 00:06:02,680 --> 00:06:08,360 Speaker 1: a person of interest. Now we have video this same 104 00:06:08,400 --> 00:06:12,880 Speaker 1: person that we believe is now running from the area 105 00:06:13,600 --> 00:06:16,400 Speaker 1: and this is this is this person is running just 106 00:06:16,520 --> 00:06:22,960 Speaker 1: seconds after the murder. We believe that this person has 107 00:06:23,040 --> 00:06:27,640 Speaker 1: ties to this neighborhood and we want to speak to them. 108 00:06:27,680 --> 00:06:31,520 Speaker 1: So let's look at when you think about this person running, 109 00:06:32,080 --> 00:06:34,960 Speaker 1: why are they running? There are probably I've come up 110 00:06:35,000 --> 00:06:38,920 Speaker 1: with four reasons why this person is running. One they 111 00:06:38,960 --> 00:06:43,440 Speaker 1: may be late for dinner too, they're out exercising. Three 112 00:06:43,760 --> 00:06:48,560 Speaker 1: they heard gunshots and number four they just murdered Benjamin 113 00:06:48,600 --> 00:06:54,000 Speaker 1: Mitchell outside Fate the Baptist Church. There is one of 114 00:06:54,040 --> 00:06:57,040 Speaker 1: those signs that you can change the letters on and 115 00:06:57,120 --> 00:07:04,200 Speaker 1: it says do not murder. Why to Joseph Scott Morgan 116 00:07:04,320 --> 00:07:08,200 Speaker 1: and Dr Daniel Bober forensics psychiatrist. First to you, Dr Bober, 117 00:07:08,560 --> 00:07:13,040 Speaker 1: are people arguing this isn't a serial killer? Dr Bober, Well, 118 00:07:13,120 --> 00:07:15,480 Speaker 1: it's based it's based on the number of victims and 119 00:07:15,560 --> 00:07:17,240 Speaker 1: nancy and in these cases we want to look at 120 00:07:17,280 --> 00:07:20,480 Speaker 1: commonalities and patterns. You know, it's probably easier in this 121 00:07:20,560 --> 00:07:23,000 Speaker 1: day and age to catch a killer like this that 122 00:07:23,080 --> 00:07:24,680 Speaker 1: it would be saying. You know, when you had the 123 00:07:24,680 --> 00:07:27,520 Speaker 1: son of Sam where he was caught pretty much accidentally 124 00:07:27,560 --> 00:07:29,760 Speaker 1: by a parking ticket that was left on his car. 125 00:07:30,200 --> 00:07:34,160 Speaker 1: With all the surveillance video and all the electronics out there, uh, 126 00:07:34,200 --> 00:07:38,120 Speaker 1: there's a much higher chance that something captured this guy 127 00:07:38,560 --> 00:07:41,480 Speaker 1: and he will you know, be apprehended. To you, Joseph 128 00:07:41,480 --> 00:07:45,720 Speaker 1: Scott Morgan, forensics expert, this is this is my thing, Nancy, 129 00:07:45,760 --> 00:07:48,800 Speaker 1: and this is very important. I want to know what 130 00:07:48,840 --> 00:07:51,280 Speaker 1: the ballistics are in this case because that's gonna show 131 00:07:51,360 --> 00:07:54,320 Speaker 1: us some kind of patterns, some kind of connectivity relative 132 00:07:54,360 --> 00:07:58,119 Speaker 1: to the striations on the recovered rounds. That is, if 133 00:07:58,160 --> 00:08:01,120 Speaker 1: they have actually recovered round it in every single case. 134 00:08:01,160 --> 00:08:03,880 Speaker 1: I think that they probably have and extracted from the 135 00:08:03,880 --> 00:08:06,480 Speaker 1: bodies at autopsy. I want to know if those rounds 136 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:08,440 Speaker 1: match up, because that's going to tie it back to 137 00:08:08,640 --> 00:08:12,960 Speaker 1: a single weapon and that's gonna be very important moving forward. Again. 138 00:08:13,000 --> 00:08:16,560 Speaker 1: That shows this connectivity through and through in the pattern 139 00:08:16,600 --> 00:08:21,440 Speaker 1: that the doctor was Benjamin Mitchell, Monica Hoffa, Anthony Noboa. 140 00:08:21,600 --> 00:08:26,560 Speaker 1: The only common thread, the only connector between them, Cheryl McCollum, 141 00:08:26,880 --> 00:08:29,120 Speaker 1: was the Route nine bus, and that's the bus that 142 00:08:29,160 --> 00:08:32,400 Speaker 1: goes north south on a route from the University of 143 00:08:32,400 --> 00:08:36,800 Speaker 1: South Florida to downtown Tampa and back day in day out. 144 00:08:36,880 --> 00:08:40,080 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, Cheryl, if this guy was not on the 145 00:08:40,120 --> 00:08:42,760 Speaker 1: bus with them and then gets off, gets off at 146 00:08:42,760 --> 00:08:45,959 Speaker 1: the stop, and then shoots them, or is he waiting 147 00:08:46,360 --> 00:08:50,440 Speaker 1: waiting in the shadows behind trees, bushes, fences, structures for 148 00:08:50,559 --> 00:08:52,160 Speaker 1: somebody to get off so we can just pick them 149 00:08:52,200 --> 00:08:55,240 Speaker 1: off like a sniper. Cheryl, Well, he certainly is familiar 150 00:08:55,240 --> 00:08:57,880 Speaker 1: with that area in the routine and the bus schedule. 151 00:08:57,960 --> 00:09:01,240 Speaker 1: There's no doubt about that. So again, Nancy, what very 152 00:09:01,640 --> 00:09:04,199 Speaker 1: clear to me is the person that some video has 153 00:09:04,240 --> 00:09:06,920 Speaker 1: been shown every night on the night we needs. It's 154 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:10,640 Speaker 1: all over social media. Whoever that person is has not 155 00:09:10,800 --> 00:09:15,120 Speaker 1: come forward. Whoever that person's family is have not come forward, 156 00:09:15,240 --> 00:09:18,480 Speaker 1: friends have not come forward. That tells me other people 157 00:09:19,000 --> 00:09:21,360 Speaker 1: have a sense of who this could also be. You 158 00:09:21,360 --> 00:09:25,880 Speaker 1: know what's interesting, Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, This video 159 00:09:26,080 --> 00:09:28,600 Speaker 1: of what appears to be a man wearing light colored 160 00:09:28,640 --> 00:09:32,080 Speaker 1: pants and a dark hood. He ever's head, is walking 161 00:09:32,120 --> 00:09:36,280 Speaker 1: alone through the neighborhood and he is glancing at a 162 00:09:36,320 --> 00:09:38,400 Speaker 1: cell phone. You can see the cell phone light up 163 00:09:38,440 --> 00:09:41,880 Speaker 1: when he touches it. What kind of person is that 164 00:09:42,400 --> 00:09:45,079 Speaker 1: the guns somebody down, then walks off and starts checking 165 00:09:45,080 --> 00:09:49,120 Speaker 1: their messages, someone who is absolutely cold blooded and absolutely 166 00:09:49,120 --> 00:09:52,000 Speaker 1: has no remorse for their actions. But again, you point 167 00:09:52,000 --> 00:09:54,240 Speaker 1: out something else, you know, a cell phone. Again, there's 168 00:09:54,240 --> 00:09:57,880 Speaker 1: another way that this person could potentially be tracked by 169 00:09:57,920 --> 00:10:00,800 Speaker 1: their cell phone. It's most likely someone lit that lives 170 00:10:00,880 --> 00:10:03,679 Speaker 1: or at least feels comfortable in that geographical area. So 171 00:10:04,160 --> 00:10:06,000 Speaker 1: I think that there's a lot of clues here that 172 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:09,800 Speaker 1: could potentially lead to to this person's apprehension. Marinus Cincelo. 173 00:10:09,960 --> 00:10:12,200 Speaker 1: My fear as if I don't want the killer to 174 00:10:12,240 --> 00:10:16,200 Speaker 1: do anything else. But if the killer doesn't do anything 175 00:10:16,240 --> 00:10:20,880 Speaker 1: else and no one comes forward, Meredith Cecelo w f 176 00:10:21,200 --> 00:10:24,480 Speaker 1: l A TV, how can he be caught? You know, 177 00:10:24,559 --> 00:10:28,079 Speaker 1: we've seen this in so many cold cases where no 178 00:10:28,160 --> 00:10:33,319 Speaker 1: one talks for years, no one talks, and secrets are kept. 179 00:10:33,360 --> 00:10:36,760 Speaker 1: And I think that there is definitely a fear in 180 00:10:36,800 --> 00:10:40,959 Speaker 1: this community that that will happen. Um. I know right 181 00:10:41,000 --> 00:10:44,200 Speaker 1: now people in the neighborhood are not only scared, but 182 00:10:44,280 --> 00:10:47,439 Speaker 1: now they're getting angry. Um. You hear it from our mayor. 183 00:10:47,720 --> 00:10:50,760 Speaker 1: You know, I want his head like he is, he 184 00:10:51,000 --> 00:10:54,920 Speaker 1: is ticked off. You know, UM, people want to know 185 00:10:55,000 --> 00:10:59,160 Speaker 1: what's happening. And you know, now, I believe that Tampa 186 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:01,720 Speaker 1: police all of haven't come out and said this directly. 187 00:11:01,760 --> 00:11:05,520 Speaker 1: It's been implied they're going back and looking at other cases, 188 00:11:05,920 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: you know, other shootings that have occurred, maybe not in 189 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 1: Seminal Heights, But is there anything to link those shootings 190 00:11:13,520 --> 00:11:18,200 Speaker 1: with what's occurred here. Yeah, it's at this point unless 191 00:11:18,440 --> 00:11:21,960 Speaker 1: this happens again, which we all hope it doesn't. But 192 00:11:22,520 --> 00:11:25,640 Speaker 1: the only thing to do is look at the existing 193 00:11:25,679 --> 00:11:28,960 Speaker 1: evidence and look at other cases that has not been 194 00:11:28,960 --> 00:11:32,199 Speaker 1: solved and see if there's any links there. But you're right, 195 00:11:32,280 --> 00:11:36,920 Speaker 1: if someone knows something, it's very unlikely that it's only 196 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,400 Speaker 1: this this person that knows what's going on. UM, we 197 00:11:41,480 --> 00:11:44,080 Speaker 1: do believe it is someone that is very comfortable in 198 00:11:44,120 --> 00:11:48,040 Speaker 1: the neighborhood, given the fact that that he's disappeared into 199 00:11:48,120 --> 00:11:51,000 Speaker 1: thin air. The third case, as I mentioned, the police 200 00:11:51,000 --> 00:11:54,280 Speaker 1: officers heard it happen. Uh, they were in the neighborhood 201 00:11:54,280 --> 00:11:58,280 Speaker 1: with their saturated patrols, and there was nothing found, no evidence. 202 00:11:58,640 --> 00:12:02,679 Speaker 1: The guy escapes. You know what's interesting, UM, let me 203 00:12:02,720 --> 00:12:04,679 Speaker 1: throw this to you. Sheryl McCollum. I keep looking at 204 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:08,720 Speaker 1: the video over and over and over, and I think 205 00:12:08,760 --> 00:12:12,160 Speaker 1: it's a male. Serial killers not always, but are typically 206 00:12:12,200 --> 00:12:16,319 Speaker 1: a white male. And you can very often tell by 207 00:12:16,440 --> 00:12:19,120 Speaker 1: the race of the victims, because serial killers usually kill 208 00:12:19,200 --> 00:12:22,440 Speaker 1: within their own race. But here that's not true because 209 00:12:22,480 --> 00:12:26,680 Speaker 1: you have Caucasians and African Americans. So I'm looking at 210 00:12:26,679 --> 00:12:31,440 Speaker 1: it and I can't tell if it's the lighting. And 211 00:12:31,640 --> 00:12:34,320 Speaker 1: I hate to call it, but it looks like a 212 00:12:34,440 --> 00:12:38,040 Speaker 1: light skinned person to me, because as they're walking away, 213 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,400 Speaker 1: they keep walking, they keep walking, they pass a tree, 214 00:12:41,640 --> 00:12:45,160 Speaker 1: they're walking along you know, parked cars, they pass a tree, 215 00:12:45,240 --> 00:12:47,520 Speaker 1: and they're a little hidden behind the polots and they 216 00:12:47,520 --> 00:12:51,440 Speaker 1: come out from behind a tree and right then it 217 00:12:51,600 --> 00:12:54,520 Speaker 1: looks like a light skinned face. But I can't tell 218 00:12:54,559 --> 00:12:58,480 Speaker 1: if the person is white or not. I can't tell 219 00:12:59,320 --> 00:13:01,760 Speaker 1: a piece of evidence. And I'm certain that the police 220 00:13:01,800 --> 00:13:05,840 Speaker 1: are owned right this minute. And that's the actual bullets, 221 00:13:05,880 --> 00:13:09,800 Speaker 1: the projectile, so he had to load that weapon. There 222 00:13:09,800 --> 00:13:14,280 Speaker 1: could be a fingerprint, there could be um other evidence 223 00:13:14,360 --> 00:13:18,120 Speaker 1: that is really unique, not just about the trajectory or 224 00:13:18,200 --> 00:13:21,240 Speaker 1: the you know, the striations, but there's other things that 225 00:13:21,280 --> 00:13:24,960 Speaker 1: bullet can tell them to narrow this down. So for example, 226 00:13:25,040 --> 00:13:27,559 Speaker 1: let's say it's a very unusual weapon that recently was 227 00:13:27,640 --> 00:13:30,920 Speaker 1: stolen from somewhere. They may be able to connect him 228 00:13:30,920 --> 00:13:33,320 Speaker 1: to a burglary. They may be able to connect him 229 00:13:33,360 --> 00:13:37,800 Speaker 1: to a purchase of a weapon. There's multitude of things 230 00:13:37,840 --> 00:13:39,880 Speaker 1: going on at the exact same time with this person, 231 00:13:40,640 --> 00:13:43,320 Speaker 1: not just the video and not just a cell phone pinging. 232 00:13:43,720 --> 00:13:46,600 Speaker 1: They're doing all the above. Go ahead, Just god, Nancy, 233 00:13:46,800 --> 00:13:50,000 Speaker 1: something just occurred to me that that is rather troubling. 234 00:13:50,160 --> 00:13:53,640 Speaker 1: I'd like to also direct us at Cheryl as well. 235 00:13:54,200 --> 00:13:56,640 Speaker 1: When you were referring to him looking at that phone, 236 00:13:56,640 --> 00:13:58,280 Speaker 1: I'm not saying that this is what he was doing 237 00:13:58,280 --> 00:14:01,679 Speaker 1: looking at a news account. Let's is considered this a 238 00:14:01,880 --> 00:14:05,000 Speaker 1: music Yeah, that's what this is going to. I'm wondering. 239 00:14:05,080 --> 00:14:08,400 Speaker 1: I am wondering, Nancy, if this guy is not receiving 240 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:14,520 Speaker 1: some kind of thrill office himself in the news uh 241 00:14:14,559 --> 00:14:17,439 Speaker 1: and seeing this in real time. And there have been 242 00:14:17,440 --> 00:14:22,000 Speaker 1: documented cases of serialized events where individuals really really get 243 00:14:22,120 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 1: juiced out of this idea of committing these horrible acts 244 00:14:25,720 --> 00:14:29,040 Speaker 1: and then seeing how this impacts their community. And I 245 00:14:29,120 --> 00:14:31,520 Speaker 1: reported that's on with us had mentioned this in specifically, 246 00:14:31,800 --> 00:14:35,160 Speaker 1: specifically that this guy knows this neighborhood, and I don't 247 00:14:35,160 --> 00:14:37,400 Speaker 1: I don't know what kind of animosity that an individual 248 00:14:37,480 --> 00:14:40,040 Speaker 1: might have, but I think that it's really compelling. Here 249 00:14:40,160 --> 00:14:43,080 Speaker 1: is this guy waiting. He kind of absorbs, you know, 250 00:14:43,160 --> 00:14:46,120 Speaker 1: all of the impact, the initial impact, until it builds 251 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:48,280 Speaker 1: up again and then he has to go out and 252 00:14:48,520 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 1: shoot again, almost like a thrill thrill killing. And I'm 253 00:14:51,480 --> 00:14:53,600 Speaker 1: really wondering that's something we're not looking at him. He 254 00:14:54,400 --> 00:14:57,120 Speaker 1: is getting that because I can tell you, you know, 255 00:14:57,240 --> 00:15:01,040 Speaker 1: as a reporter, O has somebody now parked in the 256 00:15:01,040 --> 00:15:05,440 Speaker 1: neighborhood seven, you know, because we want to be there 257 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:09,200 Speaker 1: something happened, and you know, so he's if that's what 258 00:15:09,240 --> 00:15:12,360 Speaker 1: he wants, that's what he's getting because all of us, 259 00:15:12,440 --> 00:15:14,680 Speaker 1: all of the local stations, are doing the same thing. 260 00:15:15,040 --> 00:15:17,920 Speaker 1: You know. The other day, I was the one that 261 00:15:18,040 --> 00:15:21,040 Speaker 1: was sent to sit there and wait, you know, wait 262 00:15:21,080 --> 00:15:23,080 Speaker 1: for the morning. And I was by myself, and I 263 00:15:23,120 --> 00:15:28,000 Speaker 1: gotta be honest with you, I was frightened. I specifically 264 00:15:28,120 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 1: chose a church parking lot that backed up to a 265 00:15:30,720 --> 00:15:33,680 Speaker 1: busy road and not to be you know, make fun 266 00:15:33,680 --> 00:15:36,360 Speaker 1: of it or anything, but I thought, you know, at 267 00:15:36,440 --> 00:15:38,880 Speaker 1: least if the vehicle is backed up to a busy road. 268 00:15:39,200 --> 00:15:42,600 Speaker 1: I have witnessed this. If something happened. I was actually 269 00:15:42,600 --> 00:15:45,360 Speaker 1: watching something on the news that really troubled me. I mean, 270 00:15:45,400 --> 00:15:48,840 Speaker 1: it scared me down. It just scared me. There there 271 00:15:48,920 --> 00:15:52,120 Speaker 1: was a reporter interviewing a gentleman in front of his home, 272 00:15:52,680 --> 00:15:54,880 Speaker 1: and he was in full face, and he was talking 273 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:57,240 Speaker 1: about how scared he was and all these things. And 274 00:15:57,280 --> 00:16:00,240 Speaker 1: I'm thinking, this guy lives in this neighborhood. There is 275 00:16:00,560 --> 00:16:03,560 Speaker 1: no way on God's green earth that I would appear 276 00:16:03,640 --> 00:16:07,040 Speaker 1: on camera, uh to demonstrate how bold or fearless or 277 00:16:07,080 --> 00:16:09,640 Speaker 1: anything I was at this point in time. Particularly if 278 00:16:09,680 --> 00:16:12,720 Speaker 1: this guy is looking to receive a thrill out of 279 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:17,600 Speaker 1: terrorizing people, It's just it's horrible, absolute horrible. That's something 280 00:16:17,680 --> 00:16:21,120 Speaker 1: I tried to allude to reach so yesterday. I believe 281 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,320 Speaker 1: he will reach out to the media. I believe that's 282 00:16:24,400 --> 00:16:27,120 Speaker 1: part of his thing. If you think of Vodiac, she 283 00:16:27,240 --> 00:16:30,840 Speaker 1: gave himself a nickname, son of Sam gave himself a nickname. 284 00:16:31,440 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 1: I think he might have even filmed what he did. 285 00:16:34,800 --> 00:16:36,440 Speaker 1: And you think that may be because we see the 286 00:16:36,440 --> 00:16:41,240 Speaker 1: cell phone. Absolutely, you think that could have been when 287 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:44,400 Speaker 1: he was looking at playing it back no question. If 288 00:16:44,400 --> 00:16:47,680 Speaker 1: you watch what he's doing, his phone is just scrolling, scrolling, scrolling. 289 00:16:48,120 --> 00:16:50,080 Speaker 1: It might have been a series of photographs, it might 290 00:16:50,160 --> 00:16:53,560 Speaker 1: be something that to me, there's a great possibility, and 291 00:16:53,600 --> 00:16:57,640 Speaker 1: I'm telling you the media will be involved. He wants it. 292 00:16:58,400 --> 00:17:01,640 Speaker 1: Dr Daniel Bober, How me get a profile on this guy? Well, 293 00:17:01,640 --> 00:17:04,000 Speaker 1: you know, Nancy, I agree with what a lot of 294 00:17:04,040 --> 00:17:06,119 Speaker 1: your guests are saying. I mean, this is clearly someone 295 00:17:06,119 --> 00:17:11,040 Speaker 1: who gets the gratification from the attention of these crimes. 296 00:17:11,119 --> 00:17:13,640 Speaker 1: And you know, with the proliferation of social media over 297 00:17:13,680 --> 00:17:15,720 Speaker 1: the last ten years, it's even more pronounced. You know, 298 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:18,240 Speaker 1: you do something now and it's all over the world 299 00:17:18,240 --> 00:17:20,720 Speaker 1: in seconds. And so it's very possible that while he 300 00:17:20,760 --> 00:17:23,199 Speaker 1: was on his phone he was looking at pictures. He 301 00:17:23,240 --> 00:17:26,000 Speaker 1: could have been doing any number of things. Um. But 302 00:17:26,359 --> 00:17:29,720 Speaker 1: you know, the serial killers, very often they uh you know, 303 00:17:29,800 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 1: have an act to grind. They are very often people 304 00:17:32,320 --> 00:17:35,399 Speaker 1: who feel marginalized and inadequate and the only way they 305 00:17:35,400 --> 00:17:39,480 Speaker 1: could feel powerful is to fill that void by committing violence, 306 00:17:39,760 --> 00:17:42,520 Speaker 1: uh towards others. And it's the ultimate act of control. 307 00:17:42,960 --> 00:17:46,359 Speaker 1: The tip line eight eight seven three tips T I 308 00:17:46,480 --> 00:17:51,240 Speaker 1: P S. There is a twenty five thousand dollar reward. 309 00:17:51,720 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 1: Our investigation would not be possible without our partners who 310 00:17:55,960 --> 00:18:00,720 Speaker 1: make our serious x IN program possible. 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Right now, we had to Kansas City 330 00:19:10,920 --> 00:19:15,000 Speaker 1: where a young dad, a Kansas City lawyer, has been 331 00:19:15,160 --> 00:19:19,359 Speaker 1: gunned down sitting on his own front porch just after 332 00:19:19,400 --> 00:19:22,880 Speaker 1: he comes back from walking his two little children to school. 333 00:19:23,320 --> 00:19:26,119 Speaker 1: This is what we know right now. Tom Pickart found 334 00:19:26,240 --> 00:19:29,520 Speaker 1: murdered outside his home in Kansas City. The thirty nine 335 00:19:29,560 --> 00:19:32,600 Speaker 1: year old wife was at home and found him dead 336 00:19:32,800 --> 00:19:37,080 Speaker 1: on the front porch. Oh stars, I feel so bad 337 00:19:37,119 --> 00:19:42,000 Speaker 1: for her. Police hunting the killer, who witnesses say sped 338 00:19:42,080 --> 00:19:46,520 Speaker 1: away from the scene in a white Chevy van. The 339 00:19:46,600 --> 00:19:50,639 Speaker 1: van was registered to a guy named David Jungerman j 340 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,800 Speaker 1: U N G E R M A N who was 341 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:58,480 Speaker 1: a defendant. That's who you accused of wrongdoing. It could 342 00:19:58,480 --> 00:20:02,320 Speaker 1: be civil defend which is often called a respondent or 343 00:20:02,359 --> 00:20:07,120 Speaker 1: a criminal defendant in a case. Now, this guy, the 344 00:20:07,240 --> 00:20:12,439 Speaker 1: lawyer Tom Tom Pickhart, had represented a homeless man. The 345 00:20:12,480 --> 00:20:16,520 Speaker 1: homeless man was suing younger man for shooting him and 346 00:20:16,560 --> 00:20:20,080 Speaker 1: causing him to lose part of his leg. So the 347 00:20:20,119 --> 00:20:23,399 Speaker 1: homeless guy was shot and lost actually lost part of 348 00:20:23,440 --> 00:20:25,399 Speaker 1: his leg for the rest of his life. It's gone. 349 00:20:26,320 --> 00:20:30,320 Speaker 1: So the lawyer, this guy now dead a father, thirty 350 00:20:30,359 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: nine year old husband, and dad is dad. He's dead. 351 00:20:34,160 --> 00:20:37,240 Speaker 1: He won the case for the homeless guy and it 352 00:20:37,320 --> 00:20:41,200 Speaker 1: resulted in Youngerman having to pay five point seven five 353 00:20:41,480 --> 00:20:47,399 Speaker 1: million dollars in damages. Pickert found murder just outside his 354 00:20:47,480 --> 00:20:52,880 Speaker 1: home in Brookside at eight a m. On a Wednesday morning. 355 00:20:53,560 --> 00:20:57,200 Speaker 1: To crime scene investigator director of the Cold Case Institute, 356 00:20:57,240 --> 00:21:01,080 Speaker 1: Cheryl McCollum, analyze. First of all, we're gonna want to 357 00:21:01,119 --> 00:21:04,280 Speaker 1: know what weapon was used in this latest murder. Is 358 00:21:04,280 --> 00:21:06,560 Speaker 1: it the same type caliber that was used when he 359 00:21:06,600 --> 00:21:09,639 Speaker 1: shot the homeless man? We know in that incident it 360 00:21:09,760 --> 00:21:12,639 Speaker 1: was an A K forty seven. Um. We're gonna also 361 00:21:12,680 --> 00:21:16,040 Speaker 1: want to process that van. There's gonna be latent, Prince. 362 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:20,040 Speaker 1: Do they only belongs to this particular subspect or is 363 00:21:20,119 --> 00:21:22,880 Speaker 1: they belong to someone else? Um. They're also they're going 364 00:21:22,880 --> 00:21:25,240 Speaker 1: to his home and they're gonna get his computers. They're 365 00:21:25,240 --> 00:21:27,320 Speaker 1: gonna see what he was checking about, what he was 366 00:21:27,359 --> 00:21:30,919 Speaker 1: posting about, what he was angry about, because again there's 367 00:21:30,920 --> 00:21:34,000 Speaker 1: five point seven million reasons motives. Well, I know this. 368 00:21:34,080 --> 00:21:37,919 Speaker 1: To Joseph Scott Morgame, Professor of forensics at Jacksonville State University, 369 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:41,760 Speaker 1: I know this at eight am. That is not a 370 00:21:41,920 --> 00:21:45,399 Speaker 1: random killing. You don't wake up at seven o'clock, have 371 00:21:45,480 --> 00:21:49,120 Speaker 1: a cup of hot tea and then grab your thirty eight, 372 00:21:49,880 --> 00:21:51,960 Speaker 1: grab your nine on the way out the door. That's 373 00:21:52,000 --> 00:21:54,520 Speaker 1: not how that goes down. That was planned. You're absolutely right. 374 00:21:54,720 --> 00:21:57,960 Speaker 1: This is another curious thing. It appears that obviously that 375 00:21:58,080 --> 00:22:01,680 Speaker 1: this is a targeting event. Keep in mind, the gentleman 376 00:22:01,720 --> 00:22:05,480 Speaker 1: that has been killed here had just walked his kids 377 00:22:05,520 --> 00:22:10,159 Speaker 1: to school and then upon returning, upon returning home, the 378 00:22:10,320 --> 00:22:13,720 Speaker 1: wife reports that she heard a single shot, a single 379 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:16,560 Speaker 1: shot that was focused on this parent, on this individual, 380 00:22:16,600 --> 00:22:20,480 Speaker 1: apparently focused well enough that he dropped this individual dead 381 00:22:20,600 --> 00:22:23,200 Speaker 1: out in front of the home. So, uh, there's a 382 00:22:23,240 --> 00:22:25,280 Speaker 1: lot of things coming into play here as far as 383 00:22:25,320 --> 00:22:29,000 Speaker 1: targeting goes a specific individual, and you're old lawyer Tom 384 00:22:29,040 --> 00:22:32,960 Speaker 1: Pickard from walking his children to school to Dr Daniel Bober, 385 00:22:33,040 --> 00:22:36,919 Speaker 1: forensic psychiatrist. Dr Bober. Of course, my legal career, my 386 00:22:37,000 --> 00:22:40,400 Speaker 1: whole legal career was spent in public service versus a 387 00:22:40,520 --> 00:22:44,080 Speaker 1: law clerk to a judge, then with the Feds, then 388 00:22:44,200 --> 00:22:48,760 Speaker 1: as a violent crime prosecutor in inner city Atlanta. UM. However, 389 00:22:50,400 --> 00:22:55,040 Speaker 1: many lawyers I dealt with that handled civil cases. This 390 00:22:55,080 --> 00:22:59,680 Speaker 1: was a civil case. The homeless guy was suing for money. 391 00:23:00,600 --> 00:23:04,159 Speaker 1: Said that rather do a criminal case than a civil 392 00:23:05,400 --> 00:23:09,840 Speaker 1: I remember one of my best friends, Cheryl, you know 393 00:23:09,920 --> 00:23:16,600 Speaker 1: the story, Renee Rockwell, was handling a divorce between very, 394 00:23:16,760 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: very wealthy couple in Atlanta, and she would come over 395 00:23:22,320 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 1: and stay at my pathetic little place, Cheryl during the 396 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:29,679 Speaker 1: divorce trial, because she was afraid the husband might take 397 00:23:29,680 --> 00:23:33,480 Speaker 1: a shot at her. Because people get that crazy during 398 00:23:33,520 --> 00:23:39,240 Speaker 1: divorces and lawsuits over money. Um, I always said, I 399 00:23:39,240 --> 00:23:43,439 Speaker 1: couldn't stomach civil civil lawyering. I'd rather try a serial 400 00:23:43,560 --> 00:23:46,320 Speaker 1: killer than work on a divorce case or a midmal 401 00:23:46,440 --> 00:23:53,000 Speaker 1: case or a case like this. People get crazy, Dr 402 00:23:53,119 --> 00:23:58,000 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober in these civil cases over money. You're absolutely right, Nancy. 403 00:23:58,480 --> 00:24:00,560 Speaker 1: In fact, it's spent my own experience. Especially in these 404 00:24:00,600 --> 00:24:04,080 Speaker 1: child custody cases. There is so much rate that I 405 00:24:04,080 --> 00:24:06,480 Speaker 1: would rather be involved as an expert in it for 406 00:24:06,560 --> 00:24:09,680 Speaker 1: a murder case than absolutely in any kind of child 407 00:24:09,720 --> 00:24:13,119 Speaker 1: custody case or any case where there's large amounts of money. Uh, 408 00:24:13,200 --> 00:24:15,919 Speaker 1: the tensions are so high and there's so much anger 409 00:24:16,440 --> 00:24:19,880 Speaker 1: that sometimes all this expressed emotion boils over into violence 410 00:24:19,880 --> 00:24:22,720 Speaker 1: and this could be a situation that it seems to 411 00:24:22,760 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: be where, uh, there's so much vindictiveness on the part 412 00:24:26,640 --> 00:24:30,040 Speaker 1: of this defendant that he obviously went all the way 413 00:24:30,160 --> 00:24:32,359 Speaker 1: and took this attorney out. You know, just Scott kim Or, 414 00:24:32,440 --> 00:24:39,080 Speaker 1: Crime Stories investigative reporter, the homeless guy was allegedly trying 415 00:24:39,080 --> 00:24:43,320 Speaker 1: to steal copper wire at the time he was shot. 416 00:24:43,440 --> 00:24:46,080 Speaker 1: What do we know about that incident, Scott kim Or, Yes, 417 00:24:46,160 --> 00:24:48,240 Speaker 1: we have. The two men were in the business and 418 00:24:48,320 --> 00:24:52,240 Speaker 1: we're stealing the copper wire, and we understand that the 419 00:24:52,240 --> 00:24:56,560 Speaker 1: the the business owner here, junger Man, arrived with an 420 00:24:56,560 --> 00:25:00,520 Speaker 1: a K fort and shot the two men and you know, 421 00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:03,040 Speaker 1: badly injuring them. What we know about the victim is 422 00:25:03,080 --> 00:25:07,600 Speaker 1: this thirty nine year old Pickhart, married with children, had 423 00:25:07,640 --> 00:25:10,040 Speaker 1: one this case for his client, which resulted in a 424 00:25:10,119 --> 00:25:15,720 Speaker 1: five point seven million dollar verdict. Court officials state the 425 00:25:15,840 --> 00:25:21,120 Speaker 1: process last week of seizing Youngerman's property occurred in both 426 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:25,120 Speaker 1: his home and his business. How mad do you think 427 00:25:25,200 --> 00:25:28,520 Speaker 1: he was? Jackie is telling me here in the studio 428 00:25:28,600 --> 00:25:33,160 Speaker 1: that he answered a silent alarm and discovered the two 429 00:25:33,160 --> 00:25:36,600 Speaker 1: guys stealing copper and opened fire with an a K 430 00:25:36,760 --> 00:25:40,800 Speaker 1: forty seven, then he gets this nearly six million dollar 431 00:25:40,960 --> 00:25:45,960 Speaker 1: verdict against him. Now this past week, court officials were 432 00:25:46,040 --> 00:25:50,280 Speaker 1: seizing property from his home and his business to pay 433 00:25:50,359 --> 00:25:55,760 Speaker 1: this nearly six million dollar verdict. I know that the 434 00:25:55,880 --> 00:26:02,000 Speaker 1: victim's wife worked at as a doctor for the University 435 00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:08,919 Speaker 1: of Kansas Health System UM and just beside myself about 436 00:26:09,200 --> 00:26:13,320 Speaker 1: the children, the two little boys that we know of 437 00:26:14,040 --> 00:26:17,359 Speaker 1: to have their dad gunned down on the front porch. 438 00:26:17,880 --> 00:26:21,520 Speaker 1: You know, I'm looking at a picture of David Jungerman 439 00:26:22,680 --> 00:26:26,159 Speaker 1: and he looks like, you know, if you put a 440 00:26:27,480 --> 00:26:30,080 Speaker 1: beard and a red hat on him, Cheryl mcconomy could 441 00:26:30,080 --> 00:26:35,200 Speaker 1: play Santa Claus. He's smiling, he's got a um red 442 00:26:35,280 --> 00:26:38,439 Speaker 1: cheeks and did just you know, if you dressed them 443 00:26:38,480 --> 00:26:40,679 Speaker 1: up right, it could be Santa for Pete's sake. Me 444 00:26:40,800 --> 00:26:42,879 Speaker 1: to his case is so heartbreaking all the way around, 445 00:26:42,920 --> 00:26:44,919 Speaker 1: but you know, it makes me think of Sarah Tokar 446 00:26:45,000 --> 00:26:46,800 Speaker 1: is a little bit. And all I can say is 447 00:26:46,840 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: that least the shooter wait until the children were at 448 00:26:50,600 --> 00:26:53,119 Speaker 1: school and not with him. We're taking a look at 449 00:26:53,200 --> 00:26:57,639 Speaker 1: this guy, David Youngerman. He made the news when he 450 00:26:57,680 --> 00:27:00,359 Speaker 1: shot two homeless people in his Missourity proper with an 451 00:27:00,400 --> 00:27:02,919 Speaker 1: A K forty seven after he caught them thanks to 452 00:27:02,960 --> 00:27:06,560 Speaker 1: a silent alarm, stealing copper wire. Then there was another 453 00:27:06,600 --> 00:27:10,040 Speaker 1: incident where he had painted a sign on a semi 454 00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:15,840 Speaker 1: trailer calling democrats quote parasites but now a then allegedly 455 00:27:15,920 --> 00:27:19,320 Speaker 1: registered to This seventy nine year old Kansas City business 456 00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:24,639 Speaker 1: owner is linked by witnesses to the shooting death of 457 00:27:24,680 --> 00:27:29,640 Speaker 1: a young lawyer who had won a huge civil judgment 458 00:27:29,760 --> 00:27:33,360 Speaker 1: against younger man. This is what we know, and we're 459 00:27:33,400 --> 00:27:35,920 Speaker 1: looking at photos of him. We're trying to figure out 460 00:27:36,320 --> 00:27:39,159 Speaker 1: what he's all about. Tom Pickhart, thirty nine, was a 461 00:27:39,160 --> 00:27:42,359 Speaker 1: partner and a well known Kansas City law firm and 462 00:27:42,400 --> 00:27:45,480 Speaker 1: had just gotten back from walking his children to school. 463 00:27:46,119 --> 00:27:50,879 Speaker 1: Neighbors described shots ringing out and hearing a woman screaming. 464 00:27:51,760 --> 00:27:55,000 Speaker 1: Then a neighbor says they saw a white van quote 465 00:27:55,359 --> 00:28:00,800 Speaker 1: crawling down Pickart Street the night before the shooting. What 466 00:28:00,840 --> 00:28:03,560 Speaker 1: does that say to you, Joe Scott Morgan, sounds like 467 00:28:03,720 --> 00:28:06,240 Speaker 1: he was casing the scene. Yeah, he wanted to get 468 00:28:06,320 --> 00:28:09,359 Speaker 1: whoever did this, wanted to get a perspective on the 469 00:28:09,400 --> 00:28:13,880 Speaker 1: targeting area where this young man was shot um and 470 00:28:14,240 --> 00:28:17,520 Speaker 1: specific to where he was going to pounce on this individual. 471 00:28:18,359 --> 00:28:21,760 Speaker 1: I'm I'm gonna be interested in seeing the forensics here, 472 00:28:21,800 --> 00:28:26,399 Speaker 1: particularly where the entrance wound is on this fellow and 473 00:28:26,680 --> 00:28:30,159 Speaker 1: what the relationship is as far as the shooting. Was 474 00:28:30,200 --> 00:28:33,959 Speaker 1: this huh an incident that this weapon was fired at 475 00:28:34,000 --> 00:28:37,240 Speaker 1: close range? Or was it something that was fired at 476 00:28:37,280 --> 00:28:40,120 Speaker 1: a great distance? Uh? Did he wait until this guy 477 00:28:40,160 --> 00:28:42,840 Speaker 1: was about to walk into the house? Uh? You know? 478 00:28:43,000 --> 00:28:45,520 Speaker 1: Or was he face to face with him when this 479 00:28:45,640 --> 00:28:48,800 Speaker 1: when this event occurred. That says a lot about the 480 00:28:48,840 --> 00:28:51,880 Speaker 1: individual that's doing this. We also know that the van 481 00:28:51,960 --> 00:28:58,360 Speaker 1: has been recovered. The white Chevy van has been recovered empty. Um. 482 00:28:58,440 --> 00:29:00,840 Speaker 1: I want to go back to share on McCollum, crime 483 00:29:00,880 --> 00:29:04,040 Speaker 1: scene investigator and director of the Cold Case Institute, Cheryl, 484 00:29:04,360 --> 00:29:06,200 Speaker 1: I want to hear your thoughts on this. We've got 485 00:29:06,240 --> 00:29:10,600 Speaker 1: a wife now a widow, and two little boys still 486 00:29:10,640 --> 00:29:12,600 Speaker 1: so young they have to be walked to school without 487 00:29:12,600 --> 00:29:16,440 Speaker 1: a dad. Nancy. I believe this shooter shot from the van, 488 00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:19,840 Speaker 1: so we use the van as his cover to try 489 00:29:19,880 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 1: to be unseen, speed away very quickly. Um. Again, we 490 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,000 Speaker 1: know he's capable of shooting people. We know he's capable 491 00:29:29,000 --> 00:29:33,479 Speaker 1: of shooting people over property, So you're gonna shoot somebody 492 00:29:33,600 --> 00:29:37,400 Speaker 1: over copper wire? What is he going to do when 493 00:29:37,400 --> 00:29:41,080 Speaker 1: it's five point seven million dollars, Cheryl? Are you sitting down? 494 00:29:42,320 --> 00:29:47,040 Speaker 1: Um in He was arrested for holding juveniles at gunpoint 495 00:29:47,840 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: after he found them fishing in his pond. We now 496 00:29:51,880 --> 00:29:54,920 Speaker 1: have a clear pattern with this guy. You do not 497 00:29:55,160 --> 00:29:59,560 Speaker 1: touch his property and this is probably Wait a minute, Cheryl, 498 00:29:59,760 --> 00:30:03,160 Speaker 1: I'm wasn't quite I wasn't quite through. One month after 499 00:30:03,240 --> 00:30:06,400 Speaker 1: he shoots the two homeless men at his business, which 500 00:30:06,400 --> 00:30:15,680 Speaker 1: he admits to, he allegedly shot another suspected intruder. Okay, wow, 501 00:30:16,880 --> 00:30:20,480 Speaker 1: that's quite a resume. Dr Daniel Bober, quite a resume. 502 00:30:20,880 --> 00:30:22,440 Speaker 1: Any You know, you don't have to be a forensic 503 00:30:22,440 --> 00:30:24,640 Speaker 1: psychiatrist to see the pattern here and realize that this 504 00:30:24,680 --> 00:30:29,680 Speaker 1: guy has totally disproportionate responses two people touching his property. 505 00:30:29,760 --> 00:30:32,479 Speaker 1: So it really if he is in fact the shooter, 506 00:30:32,680 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 1: that certainly would be consistent with his pattern in the past. 507 00:30:35,120 --> 00:30:37,760 Speaker 1: Where does it stand right now with me? Is Alan 508 00:30:37,840 --> 00:30:41,480 Speaker 1: deep joining me from l A Alan? Right now? What 509 00:30:41,520 --> 00:30:43,280 Speaker 1: do we know right now? This man has not been 510 00:30:43,360 --> 00:30:46,000 Speaker 1: named a suspect. What they do say is that it 511 00:30:46,040 --> 00:30:48,880 Speaker 1: was his van that they found and they're searching the 512 00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:52,560 Speaker 1: van for clues and they're considering whether to arrest him. 513 00:30:52,640 --> 00:30:54,520 Speaker 1: We do know that they've been at his business, they've 514 00:30:54,520 --> 00:30:58,040 Speaker 1: been at his home for some time, and we're waiting 515 00:30:58,080 --> 00:30:59,720 Speaker 1: to see what the next development is. Well, I know 516 00:30:59,720 --> 00:31:03,480 Speaker 1: where is Van is? But where is he? Without our partners, 517 00:31:03,720 --> 00:31:08,280 Speaker 1: we would not be able to investigate this shooting. Let's 518 00:31:08,280 --> 00:31:11,920 Speaker 1: pause just one moment to thank our partner. It's link 519 00:31:12,200 --> 00:31:16,120 Speaker 1: A k C. Guys. 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I may not want to know the answer. 538 00:32:12,520 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: It's easy to set up, there are sizes for every 539 00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,920 Speaker 1: dog and it's super comfortable. And link a k C 540 00:32:18,440 --> 00:32:21,920 Speaker 1: looks great on fat Boy. Head to our Instagram and 541 00:32:21,960 --> 00:32:24,160 Speaker 1: Facebook to check out the picture I posted a fat 542 00:32:24,200 --> 00:32:28,920 Speaker 1: boy and his scholar. He's looking good. Keep your dogs safe, happy, healthy. 543 00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:32,400 Speaker 1: It all got even easier with a special offer from 544 00:32:32,440 --> 00:32:36,080 Speaker 1: link a k C. Go to link a k C 545 00:32:36,680 --> 00:32:39,880 Speaker 1: dot com and use code Nancy to save thirty percent 546 00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,960 Speaker 1: on your order with free shipping. Hello code Nancy in 547 00:32:44,080 --> 00:32:46,520 Speaker 1: a n C. Y to save thirty on your order 548 00:32:46,720 --> 00:32:50,240 Speaker 1: with free shipping at link a k C dot com. 549 00:32:50,520 --> 00:32:54,960 Speaker 1: Link a k C dot com code Nancy, Thanks link 550 00:32:55,040 --> 00:32:58,520 Speaker 1: a k C. She has stab wounds on her back. 551 00:32:59,320 --> 00:33:02,360 Speaker 1: The chilling nine one one call. Those are the words 552 00:33:02,400 --> 00:33:07,000 Speaker 1: when a married school teacher is found stabbed dead just 553 00:33:07,360 --> 00:33:13,680 Speaker 1: before her daughter's wedding. Her husband says intruders murdered his wife. 554 00:33:14,000 --> 00:33:17,040 Speaker 1: I Nancy Grace. This is Crime Stories. Thank you for 555 00:33:17,120 --> 00:33:19,880 Speaker 1: being with us. First of all, let's listen to that 556 00:33:20,000 --> 00:33:22,840 Speaker 1: nine one one call and see what we can learn. 557 00:33:23,080 --> 00:33:26,400 Speaker 1: And when one's the city of your emergency, Ohio. We 558 00:33:26,480 --> 00:33:31,000 Speaker 1: have people on the way already. What's the address, Blazing Starter. 559 00:33:31,120 --> 00:33:33,280 Speaker 1: I think someone killed my wife. Do you think someone 560 00:33:33,400 --> 00:33:36,640 Speaker 1: killed your wife? Yeah? There looks like stablins on her back. 561 00:33:36,840 --> 00:33:39,320 Speaker 1: We think people trying to break in our house a year. 562 00:33:41,400 --> 00:33:43,200 Speaker 1: I need to ask you questions. Okay, are you there 563 00:33:43,320 --> 00:33:45,480 Speaker 1: right now? I just got in the door with my 564 00:33:45,560 --> 00:33:47,920 Speaker 1: new son in law. My son Kyle was here with her. 565 00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,520 Speaker 1: What I want you to do is walk outside and 566 00:33:50,560 --> 00:33:52,400 Speaker 1: stay in the front. Okay, you said she's stabbed in 567 00:33:52,400 --> 00:33:55,280 Speaker 1: the back. Yeah, I don't want to Yeah, if you 568 00:33:55,320 --> 00:33:58,160 Speaker 1: don't think, you can start. I don't think she's her 569 00:33:58,200 --> 00:34:00,240 Speaker 1: face hit the ground and says blood. There's a fool 570 00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:07,479 Speaker 1: of blood. If she's breathing. No, she is not got CPR. Okay. 571 00:34:07,480 --> 00:34:09,000 Speaker 1: What I want you to do is I want you 572 00:34:09,040 --> 00:34:12,279 Speaker 1: to go outside. Everyone in the house, go outside and 573 00:34:12,280 --> 00:34:19,520 Speaker 1: wait in the front. Okay, do you see anyone else 574 00:34:19,560 --> 00:34:22,400 Speaker 1: in the home. My son Kyle is here. He has 575 00:34:22,440 --> 00:34:25,799 Speaker 1: down syndrome. She sent me a text to meet me 576 00:34:25,800 --> 00:34:29,880 Speaker 1: at brew kettle at I didn't hear from her. I 577 00:34:29,920 --> 00:34:33,040 Speaker 1: didn't expect this. What's no sir? I understand your upset, 578 00:34:33,080 --> 00:34:35,600 Speaker 1: but where's Kyle out in the home? If she's outside 579 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:38,279 Speaker 1: with jeff our son in law, you know, we'd asked 580 00:34:38,280 --> 00:34:41,280 Speaker 1: people to watch our freaking area. We've had people attempt 581 00:34:41,280 --> 00:34:43,200 Speaker 1: to break in just this week. I don't know what's 582 00:34:43,239 --> 00:34:46,160 Speaker 1: going on in this city, but this isn't getting done. 583 00:34:46,440 --> 00:34:48,279 Speaker 1: Understand your upset, but can you give me your name? 584 00:34:48,880 --> 00:34:52,399 Speaker 1: You people dropped the ball? Sir? Can you just take 585 00:34:52,440 --> 00:34:54,360 Speaker 1: a deep breath? Is there any full city is getting 586 00:34:54,400 --> 00:34:57,200 Speaker 1: freaking taken over? Sir? I understand your upset, but I 587 00:34:57,239 --> 00:34:59,279 Speaker 1: need to just stay focused. Okay, you don't think you 588 00:34:59,320 --> 00:35:02,440 Speaker 1: can perform? See be are correct? I can't believe this. 589 00:35:03,040 --> 00:35:08,759 Speaker 1: You better breaking all your I saw this chair down. 590 00:35:09,120 --> 00:35:13,760 Speaker 1: You said she's in the kitchen. She is in the kitchen? 591 00:35:14,640 --> 00:35:19,000 Speaker 1: Was well, I got here, we got all my three 592 00:35:19,000 --> 00:35:22,799 Speaker 1: minutes ago. You said she's in the kitchen her what's 593 00:35:22,800 --> 00:35:28,000 Speaker 1: your morning? What's your name? Ruth Pluskovic? I'm her husband. 594 00:35:29,960 --> 00:35:32,080 Speaker 1: We've had people trying to break in our house like 595 00:35:32,440 --> 00:35:36,800 Speaker 1: a lot slash our camera that We're getting targeted, and 596 00:35:36,800 --> 00:35:38,920 Speaker 1: I don't buy who is doing this that I'm picked 597 00:35:39,239 --> 00:35:42,080 Speaker 1: Joining me Cheryl McCullum, Director of the Cold Case Institute, 598 00:35:42,120 --> 00:35:47,000 Speaker 1: crime scene investigator, Joseph Scott Morgan, forensics expert, Professor of 599 00:35:47,040 --> 00:35:52,440 Speaker 1: Forensics at Jacksonville State University, Scott Kimbler, Crime Stories contributor, 600 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:57,480 Speaker 1: and Dr Daniel Bober, forensic psychiatrist, straight out to Joseph 601 00:35:57,560 --> 00:36:02,360 Speaker 1: Scott Morrigan, Joe Scott, what do you learn from the 602 00:36:02,480 --> 00:36:05,840 Speaker 1: nine one one call? The strange thing about this call, Nancy, 603 00:36:05,880 --> 00:36:09,160 Speaker 1: for me, is that the husband who initiated the call 604 00:36:09,760 --> 00:36:13,520 Speaker 1: calls nine one one and says that his wife he 605 00:36:13,640 --> 00:36:17,239 Speaker 1: came home found his wife dead on the floor and 606 00:36:17,320 --> 00:36:21,800 Speaker 1: that she appears to have been stabbed, uh and stabbed 607 00:36:21,840 --> 00:36:27,640 Speaker 1: like multiple times, but he's not attempting cpr um And 608 00:36:27,680 --> 00:36:30,200 Speaker 1: then all of a sudden, he goes into in the 609 00:36:30,239 --> 00:36:32,160 Speaker 1: midst of the nine one one call, goes into a 610 00:36:32,200 --> 00:36:36,920 Speaker 1: tirade directed at the local police department, talking about how 611 00:36:36,960 --> 00:36:39,440 Speaker 1: they've had burglars over the past year, and he doesn't 612 00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:42,480 Speaker 1: understand why the community is not being taken care of. 613 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:45,200 Speaker 1: All the while his wife is dead on the floor 614 00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:48,440 Speaker 1: or close to death. They the nine one one operator 615 00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:51,480 Speaker 1: can't even get it verified that she is in fact deceased. 616 00:36:51,560 --> 00:36:54,719 Speaker 1: I hear what you're saying, Justice Scott Morgan. Sheryl McCollum, 617 00:36:55,080 --> 00:36:59,080 Speaker 1: director of the Cold Case Institute. He's right. At first 618 00:36:59,120 --> 00:37:01,520 Speaker 1: I would have said that, you know, there's no telling 619 00:37:01,560 --> 00:37:04,799 Speaker 1: what somebody might say when they find their spouse dead 620 00:37:04,840 --> 00:37:06,560 Speaker 1: on the floor. They could go off on police, That 621 00:37:06,600 --> 00:37:09,080 Speaker 1: could go off on anybody. But it sounds like he 622 00:37:09,239 --> 00:37:14,040 Speaker 1: very quickly goes from I think she's you think you 623 00:37:14,239 --> 00:37:17,799 Speaker 1: think she's dead, Cheryl, that's the first thing that there's 624 00:37:17,800 --> 00:37:20,319 Speaker 1: no doubt about that, Nancy. But like you always taught me, 625 00:37:20,560 --> 00:37:24,279 Speaker 1: let's start at the beginning. The very first thing out 626 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:28,359 Speaker 1: of it mouth is we have people on the way already, 627 00:37:28,480 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: so you called no one one to tell him you 628 00:37:30,800 --> 00:37:34,239 Speaker 1: didn't need them. What what is that about? And then 629 00:37:34,239 --> 00:37:37,799 Speaker 1: he goes into I think someone killed my wife. But 630 00:37:37,880 --> 00:37:42,040 Speaker 1: he's very clear that she has multiple stab wounds. So 631 00:37:42,120 --> 00:37:44,440 Speaker 1: that leads you to saint was there was she not 632 00:37:44,520 --> 00:37:46,480 Speaker 1: covered in blood? I mean he could see the individual 633 00:37:46,600 --> 00:37:49,440 Speaker 1: stab wounds. Was her shirt lifted up? I want to 634 00:37:49,440 --> 00:37:52,000 Speaker 1: know how we knew she was stabbed, not shot or 635 00:37:52,040 --> 00:37:56,359 Speaker 1: something else? He immediately goes to that. The other thing 636 00:37:56,400 --> 00:37:59,040 Speaker 1: that is very disconcerting to me is in that call 637 00:37:59,520 --> 00:38:04,319 Speaker 1: he say very clearly her face hit the ground. He 638 00:38:04,520 --> 00:38:08,680 Speaker 1: could not know that unless he were there. Repeat that 639 00:38:08,760 --> 00:38:12,480 Speaker 1: one more time, Charyl McCullum. His exact quote to the 640 00:38:12,520 --> 00:38:17,400 Speaker 1: operator is her face hit the ground that you found 641 00:38:17,400 --> 00:38:21,359 Speaker 1: your wife stabbed, bleeding everywhere. She may or may not 642 00:38:21,400 --> 00:38:23,840 Speaker 1: have a facial injury, but you know she wasn't punched. 643 00:38:24,280 --> 00:38:26,759 Speaker 1: You know, she wasn't hit with something by this assailant. 644 00:38:27,280 --> 00:38:30,200 Speaker 1: You know for a fact her face hit the ground. 645 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:33,000 Speaker 1: You were there when that happened. If you know that. 646 00:38:33,200 --> 00:38:37,919 Speaker 1: To Dr Daniel Bober forensic psychiatrists, he could easily say, well, 647 00:38:38,160 --> 00:38:39,879 Speaker 1: I thought she was set at the back and fell 648 00:38:39,960 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 1: face forward. That's why I said that. Yeah, Nancy, I 649 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:46,880 Speaker 1: mean his behavior is completely bizarre and very suspicious. I 650 00:38:46,920 --> 00:38:49,319 Speaker 1: mean it doesn't necessarily mean we know for a fact 651 00:38:49,360 --> 00:38:52,600 Speaker 1: that he was involved, but it's certainly highly suggested. Well, 652 00:38:52,680 --> 00:38:55,400 Speaker 1: right now, no one has been named a person of interest, 653 00:38:55,480 --> 00:38:59,160 Speaker 1: much less a suspect. This is what we do know. Uh. 654 00:38:59,280 --> 00:39:04,399 Speaker 1: Sixth grade school teacher Melenda plus Kovic was found dead 655 00:39:04,480 --> 00:39:07,160 Speaker 1: in her home. Her husband calls nine one one saying 656 00:39:07,160 --> 00:39:10,880 Speaker 1: someone fatally stabbed her in the back. The Medical Examiner's 657 00:39:10,920 --> 00:39:14,120 Speaker 1: Office has identified her as Melenda. She was a teacher 658 00:39:14,400 --> 00:39:18,480 Speaker 1: at Strongsville Middle School. She was married with three children. 659 00:39:18,920 --> 00:39:25,399 Speaker 1: It was just before her daughter's wedding. Now interesting, there 660 00:39:25,400 --> 00:39:31,279 Speaker 1: have been four documented incidents involving very suspicious activity at 661 00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,200 Speaker 1: their home. Take a listen to her Melenda as she 662 00:39:36,480 --> 00:39:42,680 Speaker 1: is calling police about her car alarm. Listen Southsta. Yes, 663 00:39:42,760 --> 00:39:45,920 Speaker 1: I'm calling from Santa Yes. Um. We just had two 664 00:39:45,960 --> 00:39:48,960 Speaker 1: people to the Gina Dolt trying to pull on her 665 00:39:48,960 --> 00:39:54,840 Speaker 1: back door. Okay, you see which wy they want. You know, 666 00:39:56,160 --> 00:40:00,680 Speaker 1: you can look Randa, you know co Grabb the flack 667 00:40:00,760 --> 00:40:02,080 Speaker 1: Laton came out and don't time to get out here. 668 00:40:02,080 --> 00:40:04,080 Speaker 1: They're all gone. But we live in a common area. 669 00:40:04,160 --> 00:40:09,759 Speaker 1: So your door. Yes, two bog like guys, that's how 670 00:40:09,760 --> 00:40:16,919 Speaker 1: he could tell. Just got Morgan and Cheryl McCallum. Dr 671 00:40:17,000 --> 00:40:20,879 Speaker 1: Daniel Bobert. Cheryl McCallum to you. So there was an 672 00:40:20,880 --> 00:40:25,399 Speaker 1: instant in the past year where some teen boys were 673 00:40:25,440 --> 00:40:28,680 Speaker 1: on the family trampoline in the backyard and she thought 674 00:40:28,719 --> 00:40:31,600 Speaker 1: they might be smoking pot, and she said, get out 675 00:40:31,600 --> 00:40:34,200 Speaker 1: of here, get out of our yard. Get off the trampoline. 676 00:40:34,840 --> 00:40:38,480 Speaker 1: Was that an isolated incident, Cheryl, or can the same 677 00:40:38,560 --> 00:40:43,799 Speaker 1: teens be connected to the other incidents? You know where 678 00:40:43,840 --> 00:40:47,279 Speaker 1: I'm going, Sheryl. I do. And it's my understanding that 679 00:40:47,440 --> 00:40:51,040 Speaker 1: no neighbor and no police ever saw any of these 680 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:54,240 Speaker 1: people they're alleging to have seen, not the two adults 681 00:40:54,280 --> 00:40:58,040 Speaker 1: that attended to break in, not the teens. To my knowledge, 682 00:40:58,200 --> 00:41:03,560 Speaker 1: no one has been question called arrested scene Joseph Scott Morgan, 683 00:41:03,640 --> 00:41:07,319 Speaker 1: forensics expert. Let's just break it down, take it in order. 684 00:41:07,440 --> 00:41:11,160 Speaker 1: This woman is stabbed dead, a sixth grade teacher at 685 00:41:11,160 --> 00:41:16,000 Speaker 1: a middle school, stabbed dad in her own home when 686 00:41:16,040 --> 00:41:19,600 Speaker 1: everybody else is gone. I want to find out so 687 00:41:19,640 --> 00:41:22,960 Speaker 1: many things, but first I want to find out if 688 00:41:23,000 --> 00:41:25,840 Speaker 1: she was alive when paramedics got there. Well we do 689 00:41:25,960 --> 00:41:28,839 Speaker 1: know is that she was removed from the scene and 690 00:41:28,920 --> 00:41:33,279 Speaker 1: pronounced dead at the hospital. Of course pronouncement. Did she 691 00:41:33,680 --> 00:41:38,840 Speaker 1: say anything about who attacked her, nothing whatsoever. There was 692 00:41:38,880 --> 00:41:42,719 Speaker 1: no utterance from her whatsoever, Nancy. She was removed from 693 00:41:42,719 --> 00:41:45,600 Speaker 1: the scene, taken to the hospital, and she was pronounced 694 00:41:45,640 --> 00:41:48,960 Speaker 1: dead shortly after that. Hold on, hold on, I got 695 00:41:49,000 --> 00:41:50,920 Speaker 1: a lot of questions. Let me just wrap the fire here. 696 00:41:51,400 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: Let's talk about these previous instances that would seemingly suggest 697 00:41:57,760 --> 00:42:01,440 Speaker 1: that some type of a vandal who had been terrorizing 698 00:42:01,480 --> 00:42:05,120 Speaker 1: the family broke in and managed to pull off this murder. 699 00:42:05,880 --> 00:42:11,160 Speaker 1: So far, no fingerprints or suggestion has pointed to another perpetrator. 700 00:42:11,440 --> 00:42:15,840 Speaker 1: Was there a forced entry, Joe Scott, there was the 701 00:42:15,960 --> 00:42:19,720 Speaker 1: day in the days leading up the night of the murder. 702 00:42:19,760 --> 00:42:21,920 Speaker 1: Was there a fourth entry? No, not not to the 703 00:42:21,920 --> 00:42:24,040 Speaker 1: best of my knowledge, that has been indicated. Do we 704 00:42:24,080 --> 00:42:27,000 Speaker 1: know if they had a burglar alarm? No? I do not. 705 00:42:27,200 --> 00:42:29,120 Speaker 1: I do not know that. The police have not released 706 00:42:29,120 --> 00:42:33,280 Speaker 1: that information. Simple yes or no is fine. Four different 707 00:42:33,320 --> 00:42:36,279 Speaker 1: family members, to my knowledge, called nine one one in 708 00:42:36,320 --> 00:42:41,080 Speaker 1: the previous ten months, including the murder victim. Okay, Now, 709 00:42:41,280 --> 00:42:45,319 Speaker 1: did any of them ever get a description of the 710 00:42:45,440 --> 00:42:51,319 Speaker 1: so called only the sun and what did the sun say? 711 00:42:51,600 --> 00:42:53,520 Speaker 1: The sun set? I thought? He said it was a 712 00:42:53,560 --> 00:42:55,719 Speaker 1: man in a hoodie and he didn't see his face. 713 00:42:55,800 --> 00:42:59,640 Speaker 1: That's that's correct, And he identified. That's not a description. Well, 714 00:42:59,680 --> 00:43:02,799 Speaker 1: it's aly description that they have at this point. He 715 00:43:02,840 --> 00:43:06,120 Speaker 1: identified what he identified a male. He did he was 716 00:43:06,160 --> 00:43:09,239 Speaker 1: non specific about race, and he stated that the individual 717 00:43:09,320 --> 00:43:12,160 Speaker 1: was wearing a hoodie, and that he attempted to push 718 00:43:12,200 --> 00:43:15,160 Speaker 1: the door in until his dog alerted, that is the 719 00:43:15,160 --> 00:43:18,239 Speaker 1: son's dog, and the guy ran away. But he never 720 00:43:18,280 --> 00:43:21,000 Speaker 1: got a look at the face. Now, is that the 721 00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,200 Speaker 1: instance when the man was able to open door the 722 00:43:23,239 --> 00:43:26,799 Speaker 1: door about three inches? Yes, yes it is mm hmm. 723 00:43:27,880 --> 00:43:32,560 Speaker 1: Never saw his face. Okay, So, Cheryl McCollum, we know 724 00:43:32,840 --> 00:43:34,920 Speaker 1: that the mom was one of those calls. I assume 725 00:43:35,000 --> 00:43:38,080 Speaker 1: was the mom the now murder victim saying that she 726 00:43:38,200 --> 00:43:40,279 Speaker 1: saw some teens in the backyard on the trampoline and 727 00:43:40,320 --> 00:43:41,919 Speaker 1: she got rid of him. Is that one of the calls? 728 00:43:41,920 --> 00:43:44,920 Speaker 1: Did she called police? Cheryl? My understand the daughter is 729 00:43:44,920 --> 00:43:46,680 Speaker 1: the one that called the police over the kids in 730 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:50,160 Speaker 1: the backyard and the trampoline. The mother called for the 731 00:43:50,320 --> 00:43:54,000 Speaker 1: son in law and said two grown, gigantic men tried 732 00:43:54,080 --> 00:43:58,360 Speaker 1: to open the slide and black door. She was answering questions, 733 00:43:58,800 --> 00:44:01,239 Speaker 1: now when one through the side the law. The other 734 00:44:01,360 --> 00:44:04,920 Speaker 1: question that came about from that call for me is 735 00:44:04,960 --> 00:44:08,120 Speaker 1: she said that the sudden law grabbed the flashlight and 736 00:44:08,200 --> 00:44:11,640 Speaker 1: attempted to go outside. Now, if there's two gigantic, adult 737 00:44:11,680 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: grow men trying to break into your house, you're just 738 00:44:13,640 --> 00:44:17,319 Speaker 1: gonna grab a flashlight and go look for him. I mean, 739 00:44:17,400 --> 00:44:21,560 Speaker 1: everything about this is odd. Something does not ring true 740 00:44:21,680 --> 00:44:23,839 Speaker 1: with every number one one call, Nancy. Let me ask 741 00:44:23,880 --> 00:44:28,160 Speaker 1: you this um to Scott Kimbler, Crime Stories, investigative reporter, 742 00:44:28,480 --> 00:44:32,480 Speaker 1: where other people in the neighborhood experiencing the same things breakens, 743 00:44:32,560 --> 00:44:35,279 Speaker 1: car vandalism and so forth apparely not Nancy. What we're 744 00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,520 Speaker 1: learning is that this neighborhood in Strongsville, Ohio is very quiet, 745 00:44:38,560 --> 00:44:41,040 Speaker 1: and the police say that they do not have a 746 00:44:41,040 --> 00:44:43,160 Speaker 1: lot of activity there, but they seem to have a 747 00:44:43,200 --> 00:44:45,759 Speaker 1: lot of calls to this house were in general, let's 748 00:44:45,760 --> 00:44:48,959 Speaker 1: say it's it's a quiet, low crime neighborhood. To Dr 749 00:44:49,239 --> 00:44:53,600 Speaker 1: Daniel Bober, what do you make of it? All the 750 00:44:53,719 --> 00:44:58,919 Speaker 1: stab wounds to the wife and in very I would 751 00:44:58,960 --> 00:45:04,160 Speaker 1: imagine rapid succession, And what do you make of somebody 752 00:45:04,200 --> 00:45:09,080 Speaker 1: that would is it the same person that would set 753 00:45:09,080 --> 00:45:13,840 Speaker 1: off a car alarm to irritate someone, but that same 754 00:45:13,880 --> 00:45:16,920 Speaker 1: person go in the home and stab the mother dead. 755 00:45:17,440 --> 00:45:19,080 Speaker 1: And there's a lot of moving parts here and it 756 00:45:19,280 --> 00:45:21,360 Speaker 1: all seems to not add up. You know, you've got 757 00:45:21,640 --> 00:45:25,640 Speaker 1: these teenagers that no one saw. Uh, You've got this 758 00:45:25,760 --> 00:45:29,360 Speaker 1: description that's really essentially meaningless um and it all seems 759 00:45:29,400 --> 00:45:31,680 Speaker 1: to emanate from the family. So there may have been 760 00:45:31,760 --> 00:45:35,759 Speaker 1: legitimate breakings, there may have been legitimate vandalism. It could 761 00:45:35,800 --> 00:45:37,760 Speaker 1: be a complete red herring, and they have no connection 762 00:45:37,800 --> 00:45:40,719 Speaker 1: to the crime whatsoever. But what is what is very 763 00:45:40,719 --> 00:45:42,720 Speaker 1: odd is that no one else in the neighborhood seems 764 00:45:42,719 --> 00:45:44,680 Speaker 1: to be able to witness any of these things that 765 00:45:44,760 --> 00:45:49,319 Speaker 1: the family is reporting. Cheryl McCullum, was she not that 766 00:45:49,440 --> 00:45:51,880 Speaker 1: we know of me. That hasn't been told, but we 767 00:45:51,960 --> 00:45:54,160 Speaker 1: I do need to clarify one thing for you. She 768 00:45:54,280 --> 00:45:57,799 Speaker 1: was not in that hole. Yes, you're right with her 769 00:45:58,400 --> 00:46:01,919 Speaker 1: who had Down syndrome and is non verbal, and there's 770 00:46:01,960 --> 00:46:06,160 Speaker 1: been at least one report of a grandchild being in 771 00:46:06,160 --> 00:46:09,120 Speaker 1: the home that is one year old. They were not 772 00:46:09,280 --> 00:46:12,960 Speaker 1: harmed at all, but they also won't be very good 773 00:46:12,960 --> 00:46:16,280 Speaker 1: at the witan to Dr Daniel Bober, forensics psychiatrist, Cheryl's 774 00:46:16,360 --> 00:46:20,600 Speaker 1: absolutely correct. She had her Down syndrome son. Here's a 775 00:46:20,680 --> 00:46:27,680 Speaker 1: teen and a very minor child who would break in 776 00:46:27,760 --> 00:46:33,520 Speaker 1: the home and be emboldened enough to commit and murder 777 00:46:33,680 --> 00:46:37,239 Speaker 1: where there's no sex assault and no robbery that I 778 00:46:37,280 --> 00:46:42,000 Speaker 1: know of, and know that these two witnesses could not 779 00:46:42,360 --> 00:46:45,600 Speaker 1: testify against them, either someone that was part of the 780 00:46:45,640 --> 00:46:47,920 Speaker 1: family or connected to the family, or someone that you 781 00:46:47,920 --> 00:46:51,040 Speaker 1: know absolutely has no conscience whatsoever. Nancy or they didn't 782 00:46:51,040 --> 00:46:52,880 Speaker 1: know they were there. I mean, for all I know, 783 00:46:52,920 --> 00:46:55,279 Speaker 1: they were in the basement playing video games or in 784 00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:59,960 Speaker 1: their bedrooms are taking a bath. Um now. I also 785 00:47:00,160 --> 00:47:04,600 Speaker 1: no Scott Kimbler on the January nine incident where there 786 00:47:04,680 --> 00:47:06,480 Speaker 1: was a break in that was to the dad's car 787 00:47:07,360 --> 00:47:11,239 Speaker 1: and a laptop and some cash was taken the night 788 00:47:11,280 --> 00:47:14,760 Speaker 1: of the murder, Scott Kimbler, do we know of any 789 00:47:15,160 --> 00:47:17,719 Speaker 1: theft from the home the night of the murder? There 790 00:47:17,760 --> 00:47:19,640 Speaker 1: was not a sect from the home that the that 791 00:47:19,719 --> 00:47:22,439 Speaker 1: the police have told us about. Strongsville Police Chief Mark 792 00:47:22,520 --> 00:47:26,760 Speaker 1: Fender says they do not have a suspect. When asked 793 00:47:26,840 --> 00:47:29,240 Speaker 1: if there was a danger to the community, he urged 794 00:47:29,280 --> 00:47:35,360 Speaker 1: people to quote use reasonable care. We know that four 795 00:47:35,440 --> 00:47:38,680 Speaker 1: members of the Pluskovic family have called nine one one 796 00:47:38,880 --> 00:47:42,560 Speaker 1: regarding suspicious activity at their home over about the past 797 00:47:42,640 --> 00:47:46,880 Speaker 1: year ten months, from missing car keys to claim that 798 00:47:46,960 --> 00:47:51,360 Speaker 1: someone tried to break in to a theft from the vehicle. 799 00:47:51,960 --> 00:47:57,920 Speaker 1: It all culminates in the murder of the mom with 800 00:47:58,040 --> 00:48:02,920 Speaker 1: no apparent sex attack and no robbery. A sixth grade 801 00:48:02,920 --> 00:48:09,560 Speaker 1: school teacher in Ohio is dead and we want answers. 802 00:48:10,280 --> 00:48:14,520 Speaker 1: Nancy Grace Crime Stories, signing off, good bye friend,