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Speaker 1: This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser and I'm

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stanovk. We're here every day bringing

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Speaker 1: you the latest news from the world to business and finance,

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Speaker 1: plus technology, politics, economics, all partnising the power of Business

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Speaker 1: Week reporters and editors, not to mention our journalists and

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Speaker 1: analyst in more than one twenty countries. You can download

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You

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Speaker 1: can also listen to our radio show at two pm

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Speaker 1: Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube

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Speaker 1: search Bloomberg Global News. There's a fair amount of COVID

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Speaker 1: and vaccine headlines. Once again Novavax's vaccine candidate showing strong

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Speaker 1: efficacy against the virus, including some of those mutated variants.

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Speaker 1: That was a large trial, and we have also those

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Speaker 1: saw the uk UH in terms of their lockdown they

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Speaker 1: extended or expected to announce. I don't think it's happened

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Speaker 1: yet or did Borce Johnson do it a four week

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Speaker 1: extension into pandemic restrictions beyond June. Because of that surge

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Speaker 1: in that delta variant, we are all focused on that

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Speaker 1: variant yeah, Well, let's get right into it with dr

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Speaker 1: Iman Abuse Aid co founder and CEO of Incredible Health,

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Speaker 1: joins us once again from San Francisco. Dr abbuside, it's

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Speaker 1: great to have you back on the show. Um, how

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Speaker 1: have you been. I'm doing well. Thank you so much

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Speaker 1: for having me. Well, let's get right into it. And

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Speaker 1: because we are getting some mixed signals from around the world.

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Speaker 1: On the one hand, we're getting more great data about

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Speaker 1: vaccines here in the United States and more and more

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Speaker 1: people getting vaccinated. But you have a unique position as

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Speaker 1: being on the front lines essentially because of of what

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Speaker 1: you do of being a career marketplace for connecting hospitals

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Speaker 1: to nursing talent. So we always love to get a

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Speaker 1: update from you about how your employees, how the nursing

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Speaker 1: talent is feeling right now, what's the latest that you're seeing. Yeah, So,

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Speaker 1: certainly in many parts of the country there's some relief

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Speaker 1: right particularly where vaccination rates are very high, like at

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Speaker 1: California as one example, Washington State as well. Um, However,

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Speaker 1: the nursing shortage and our our shortage of healthcare workers

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Speaker 1: in this country continues, um as as a demand for

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Speaker 1: health for you know, for their work continuing to rise. Um,

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Speaker 1: we are seeing an all time high in terms of

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Speaker 1: demand for for nursing and hellm, how bad is it

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Speaker 1: dr abuse in terms of demand. Give us an idea

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Speaker 1: and how it compares with where we were pre pandemic um.

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Speaker 1: It has probably the demand has probably increased by at

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Speaker 1: least thirty or for the pandemic um. What's specifically different, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: ahead in a few metrics. So one is that we're

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Speaker 1: seeing that nurse turnover, So nurses quitting um has gone up.

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Speaker 1: It used to be seventeen annually. That's an annual turnover

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Speaker 1: that has gone up to more like two percent now.

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Speaker 1: And then the other big change we're seeing is the

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Speaker 1: days to fill, So the number of times that the

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Speaker 1: amount of days it takes to higher a nurse has

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Speaker 1: extended from the eighty two day average to closer than

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Speaker 1: ninety days now on average across the country. You know,

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Speaker 1: it's so it's it's so interesting. I'm just thinking. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about the Federal Reserve. We talked about the idea

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Speaker 1: of things being transitory chip shortages, shipping container shortages, and

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Speaker 1: demand exceeding supply. Right now we're seeing the same thing

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Speaker 1: when it comes specifically to to nursing talent. And I

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Speaker 1: wonder what this solution is here, Dr Apps. Is it

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Speaker 1: all about it? Is it about raising wages? Is about

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Speaker 1: paying paying these nurses more? Yeah, so certainly that's already

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Speaker 1: been happening. Wages over the last twelve months have increased

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Speaker 1: over twelve percent UM, which is a big which is

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Speaker 1: a big increase in the twelve month period UM. And

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Speaker 1: then there's two you know, there's two issues to resolve here.

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Speaker 1: One of the improving the efficiency of hiring and the

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Speaker 1: second is increasing the underlying supply. UM. On the efficiency piece,

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Speaker 1: we're like seeing that a lot more hospitals and healthy

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Speaker 1: spines are embracing any kind of technology and marketplace technology

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Speaker 1: that that can UM that is to their advantage. Right. So, well,

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Speaker 1: what we're seeing if we've just hit an exciting milestone

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Speaker 1: ourselves in our mission where we're partnering with over of

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Speaker 1: the best hospitals on the US News and World Report

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Speaker 1: list UM and that's very rapid growth for a team,

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Speaker 1: that for a company that only just started a couple

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Speaker 1: a few years ago, and that's UM. We've just seen

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Speaker 1: a substantial increase in growth in the last eighteen months.

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Speaker 1: So you mentioned also increasing supply, and I do wonder

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Speaker 1: who typically becomes nurses, and I do wonder in terms

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Speaker 1: of immigration restraints, is that part of the problem. It is,

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Speaker 1: so you know that the underlying supply shortage is has

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Speaker 1: is a multi fascinate problem. Um. First, first and foremost,

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Speaker 1: we can't act. We're struggling to train more nurses. So

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Speaker 1: nursing schools are completely full. Um. There they have very

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Speaker 1: long waitlists because they simply can't get in more faculty

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Speaker 1: to train more nurses. Um. And so there's a bottleneck there.

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Speaker 1: There's another bottleneck happening after nursing school where not enough

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Speaker 1: hospitals and healthystons are willing to train nurses new graduate nurses.

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Speaker 1: Um and so there's another bottle neck there. And then yeah,

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Speaker 1: to your point, there is an an integration bottleneck as well.

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Speaker 1: In the past we were able to really welcome nurses

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Speaker 1: from all over the world. That's become much more challenging

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Speaker 1: as um. You know, the US immigration and rules have changed.

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Speaker 1: And also, to be honest, I mean in the U

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Speaker 1: S we have a nursing shortage, but there's also a

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Speaker 1: global nursing shortage going on as well. That's what I

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Speaker 1: was curious if this is U S specific or if

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Speaker 1: this is very similar what's happening around the globe. It's

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Speaker 1: happening across across the globe. I know you just mentioned

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Speaker 1: the UK and new challenges. They have the exact same,

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Speaker 1: exact same challenges that we have here in the US.

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Speaker 1: As the CEO of this company, Dr Apps, I'm wondering

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Speaker 1: how you're thinking about when this gets resolved. What's your timeline? Um,

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Speaker 1: there is It's it's perpetual. I mean, there is no

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Speaker 1: timeline for how this gets for for this getting resolved.

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Speaker 1: I mean, it's a multi faceted problem problem. We're gonna

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Speaker 1: need some government intervention. We're ne gonna need hospital and

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Speaker 1: health system leaders to take the initiative. We're gonna need

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Speaker 1: nursing schools to step up as well, and we're going

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Speaker 1: to really have to make nursing as a profession as

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Speaker 1: well the other healthcare worker professions appear more attractive UM

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Speaker 1: and to attract more and more people into those professions.

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Speaker 1: How do we do that? Is it just money or

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Speaker 1: is it something more than that. It's it's emphasizing, Yeah,

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Speaker 1: this is this is for the amount of education you

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Speaker 1: need to become a nurse, which isn't too many it's

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Speaker 1: not too many years. UM. The average pay for a

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Speaker 1: nurse in the US right now is eighty thousand dollars.

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Speaker 1: In states like California and New York, it's definitely well

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Speaker 1: over a hundred thousand dollars annually. So this can be

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Speaker 1: a lucrative career for for for you know, maybe only

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Speaker 1: three or four years of education. UM. And so we

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Speaker 1: definitely need to promote the career a little bit more

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Speaker 1: and really um make the appear the career, emphasizing the

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Speaker 1: mission of the career too. I mean, at the end

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Speaker 1: of the day, that care deeply about patient care and

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Speaker 1: taking care of people, and that is the ultimate driver

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Speaker 1: for why UH individuals enter the nurse and profession and

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Speaker 1: other healthcare worker contessionals. What are the changes that you've

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Speaker 1: had to make an incredible health as a results of

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Speaker 1: this shortage, UM, We've had to really just emphasize operation

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Speaker 1: efficiency of hiring. We've had to add, you know, first

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Speaker 1: of all, add lots of features that automate the interview scheduling,

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Speaker 1: that provide data analytics that help identify any bottlenecks, and

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Speaker 1: really really have built quite a little lot of software

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Speaker 1: to improve the efficiency of the hiring and then on

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Speaker 1: the talent side, we really have to add a whole

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Speaker 1: range of features and tools for nurses beyond just getting

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Speaker 1: a job. UM. So we've become the place where they're

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Speaker 1: managing their career, things like free continuing education for the nurses.

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Speaker 1: We've had to add mental health services as well as

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Speaker 1: a community for nurses inside our inside the Incredible Health

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Speaker 1: apps as well. UM. That's really been paying off. You know,

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Speaker 1: over fifty of hospital beds in both Texas and California

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Speaker 1: or facilities that use Incredible Health to hire permanent nurses,

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Speaker 1: and in some cities like the l A area, in

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Speaker 1: the Dallas area, it's almost seventy percent of hospital beds

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Speaker 1: are using are using our platform. You know you mentioned

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Speaker 1: UM the milestone for you folks about now UM participating

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Speaker 1: in over sixty of the top hospitals in the United States.

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Speaker 1: And there's a stat you shared with our producer Paul

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Speaker 1: Brennon hospital send an interview request every four minutes UM

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Speaker 1: their platform, flipping this raftin giving healthcare workers and precedent

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Speaker 1: and control over their careers, but an interview request every

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Speaker 1: four minutes on the platform. So talk about that is

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Speaker 1: wild demand, dr Aposide, It really is. I mean there's uh,

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Speaker 1: you know, so every four minutes, another interview request is

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Speaker 1: being sent from from an employer to a two talent

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Speaker 1: on the platform. UM. And we've really had to, you know,

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Speaker 1: step up our operations and make sure that you know,

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Speaker 1: both the talent and the employers are having a very

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Speaker 1: delightful experience on the platform. And you're right, we are

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Speaker 1: seeing more demand than we would have ever expected. UM.

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Speaker 1: And the other thing is the product works. I mean,

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Speaker 1: we we do very you know, we do an effective

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Speaker 1: job of ensuring that hiring happens rapidly as well. Dr Episade.

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Speaker 1: One last question here wondering about the patient experience. If

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Speaker 1: we're having so much trouble getting nurses, how does that

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Speaker 1: translate into what patients experience in the hospital. Yeah, it

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Speaker 1: does translate very directly, honestly. When so when a unit

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Speaker 1: is understaffed, we see healthcare outcomes drop. So the quality

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Speaker 1: of Jerry Cross UM, and so that is something that

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Speaker 1: every um, gosh, every every single person on the executive

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Speaker 1: team in a hostel or health system is concerned with.

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Speaker 1: And so UM, they've there's several different initiatives that base

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Speaker 1: put in place in order to kind of mitigate that, um,

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Speaker 1: they've added more support staff. So so beyond nurses, you know,

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Speaker 1: there's other types of staff that you can add that

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Speaker 1: can do some of the kind of lower skill work, um,

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Speaker 1: in order to enable nurses to operate at the top

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Speaker 1: of their license. UM. But it's definitely, it's definitely a

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Speaker 1: challenge that every executive across across the country is facing

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Speaker 1: right now. Yeah, this is not a group that's you know,

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Speaker 1: we know they've already been stressed and certainly would like

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Speaker 1: to lighten the load. Uh, certainly in today's environment. Dr

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Speaker 1: Iman abuse Aide, thank you so much. Dr Abuse, great

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Speaker 1: to have you back with us. She's co founder and

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Speaker 1: chief executive officer at Incredible Health. Joining us once again

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Speaker 1: on the phone from San Francisco. You're listening to Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim

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Speaker 1: Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Among our most stories on the

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Speaker 1: Bloomberg in fact, I think it might be the number

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Speaker 1: one most read story. Who's going back to work exactly?

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Speaker 1: And you know what the return to office among the

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Speaker 1: Wall Street community. You know, everybody's not saying the same tune. Tim,

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Speaker 1: They're certainly not. Some banks are moving faster than others. Fortunately,

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Speaker 1: we have Sally Bakewell, Finance team leader here at Bloomberg News,

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Speaker 1: joining us right here with us in the Bloomberg Interactive

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Speaker 1: Broker Studio. Sally, it's great to have you on the show.

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Speaker 1: Let's start with Goldman Sachs, because today is a big

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Speaker 1: day for him. Yeah, it is a big day. And

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Speaker 1: we have one of our reporters, Shinali Bassack, down there

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Speaker 1: today as the employees streamed in in the drizzling rain. Um.

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Speaker 1: It's a bit of a tale of two wool streets really,

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Speaker 1: because we have Goldman on the one hand that's been

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Speaker 1: incredibly ambitious. It wanted everyone back by today. Um. And

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Speaker 1: you know there was a bit of fan fast surrounding.

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Speaker 1: It had food trucks, there was music, There are coffee machines.

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Speaker 1: They're trying to create this very welcoming, exciting atmosphere. They

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Speaker 1: have interns coming into right, so I bet it's trying

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Speaker 1: to welcome them and make them feel good exactly. Um.

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Speaker 1: But then on the other hand you have City Group,

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Speaker 1: which taking a slightly more flexible approach. Employees don't have

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Speaker 1: when they do return that they're going to be able

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Speaker 1: to work on under a flexible schedule. I wonder about

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Speaker 1: specifically about what it means for morale and and and

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Speaker 1: having employees back in there in some places after being

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Speaker 1: a part for fourteen sixteen months in some cases, and

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Speaker 1: at the same time Sally where we've heard that so

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Speaker 1: many of them have been uh working a lot. Yeah. Absolutely.

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Speaker 1: I think Goldman is interesting here because, um I heard

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Speaker 1: a lot of other people. Um as well as the

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Speaker 1: have the addition childcare element. And perhaps you know City

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Speaker 1: you that I do wonder it with Jane Fraser at

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Speaker 1: bit of a different perspective there. It's very interesting question.

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Speaker 1: I mean, this has got to be one of the

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Speaker 1: biggest decisions for her in her new gig, and so

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Speaker 1: how she handles it and what she's done is a

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Speaker 1: real differentiator. UM. And you know she she's a brand

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Speaker 1: been white dudes UM for so long. So it does,

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Speaker 1: but you know she's charting slightly different course here. The

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Speaker 1: thing that I wonder, and I think we've done some

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Speaker 1: reporting on this, is all of the all it's going

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Speaker 1: to take is for one Wall Street firm to get

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Speaker 1: the deal because there was a face to face meeting

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Speaker 1: that somebody else didn't do because they were embracing hybrid

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Speaker 1: and then I feel like everybody's going to say we

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Speaker 1: Like what's the conversations around that. I think I recall

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Speaker 1: face to face interaction. So it's definitely I think it's

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Speaker 1: definitely going to be a factor that they'll try to

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Speaker 1: in and preference will go to those interactions right. Well, Look,

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Speaker 1: one of the reasons we talked about this a lot

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Speaker 1: in what the banks are doing is because the health

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Speaker 1: of the finance industry is inextricably tied to the health

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Speaker 1: of New York City and the economics of New York

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Speaker 1: City and the economy of New York City. And in

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Speaker 1: this story by your own Jenny Serene, she talks about

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Speaker 1: how a significant portion of New York City's economy relies

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Speaker 1: on the finance industry. There directly or indirectly take us

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Speaker 1: into how important it is for these people to be

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Speaker 1: back in office is when it comes to the city's health,

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Speaker 1: super important. And I think Shinali was telling me earlier that, um,

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Speaker 1: there were local vendors who noted the employees going into

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Speaker 1: the building and we're asking them, how long are you

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Speaker 1: going to stay? You open for good? How long you

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Speaker 1: staying open? Because it's such a huge force, huge commercial

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Speaker 1: force and business force for them. So each one of

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Speaker 1: these banks that they have this ecosystem around them which

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Speaker 1: is a very um and they're a very powerful force

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Speaker 1: in the economy. Well, and it's interesting too that this

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Speaker 1: drop after the pandemic boom, and you know, he's he

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Speaker 1: felt like he was touching upon, you know, the competition

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Speaker 1: not competing with it. So, you know, I wonder what

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Speaker 1: he's trying to do, whether it's to be like, listen, folks,

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Speaker 1: we are to be back at work figuring out, strategizing,

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Speaker 1: you know, what's next, because there's a lot of stuff

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Speaker 1: coming at us. Absolutely, and actually was quite interesting what

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Speaker 1: he said today about their trading revenue. They're expecting it

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Speaker 1: and Gorman echoed the sentiment they're expecting it to be

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Speaker 1: to be to drop or not to have the gangbusters

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Speaker 1: feel that they had in the first quarter. Um, but

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Speaker 1: with that was something it was expected, and I think

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Speaker 1: Diamond was perhaps quite clever in that he said that,

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Speaker 1: Um he kind of reset expectations a bit in a

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Speaker 1: way that means they will probably still um not due

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Speaker 1: too badly next to analyst predictions. UM. So it was

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Speaker 1: a kind of you know, reset expectations a bit about

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Speaker 1: their numbers for the second quarter. So how are other

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Speaker 1: banks thinking about the summer right now and potentially getting

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Speaker 1: people back by Labor Day. Um. So we had Gorman

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Speaker 1: Morgan Stanley CEO today saying that they would be disappointed

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Speaker 1: if people aren't back by Labor Day. This was Goldman, sorry, yeah,

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Speaker 1: And um we have Bank of America said says that

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Speaker 1: it's asking it's UM employees that are vaccinated to start

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Speaker 1: coming back and giving them thirty days notice. So I

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Speaker 1: think there is a kind of expectation that Labor Day

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Speaker 1: perhaps is where everyone's galvanizing around. Well, I think it's

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Speaker 1: important for a couple of reasons. One is returned to school,

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Speaker 1: and people who work for these companies who have kids

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Speaker 1: and child care has been such I speak as a parent,

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Speaker 1: childcare has been such an issue over the last fourteen

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Speaker 1: fifteen months, I mean as as schools have been closed.

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Speaker 1: And I wonder about flexibility on the other side, and

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Speaker 1: you alluded to Jane Fraser, but I'm wondering if there

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Speaker 1: is going to be some sort of see change in

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Speaker 1: the way that these companies think about work life balance.

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Speaker 1: And I'm not talking about balance and I'm talking about

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Speaker 1: like you know, being a parent and also being an employee.

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Speaker 1: I think it will be what it will be as

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Speaker 1: a really interesting leverage element. So depending on what you

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Speaker 1: do in the bank, maybe that gives you more leverage

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Speaker 1: to be more flexible. Um. There are certain jobs, we know,

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Speaker 1: the trading floor, where it will be more difficult perhaps

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Speaker 1: to um be a kind of work from home or

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Speaker 1: hybrid employee, but I think it will. It would be

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Speaker 1: really interesting how that does settles which rank ranks of

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Speaker 1: staff are able to kind of get the flexibility that

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Speaker 1: they one, and which actually find that they don't, they're

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Speaker 1: not afforded it and they want to move elsewhere, And

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Speaker 1: that kind of thing we might see in September when

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Speaker 1: a lot of these policies really hit flost into place.

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Speaker 1: The interesting thing is is just that these banks did

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Speaker 1: really well during the pandemic, right, even with everybody working

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Speaker 1: at home. They were really productive. But yet we're on

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Speaker 1: the other side and things are changing, right, and so

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Speaker 1: maybe the differences between firms could give someone an advantage

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Speaker 1: of another. Possibly. Yeah, I think that's an excellent point,

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Speaker 1: and we'll we'll definitely see that play out. And I

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Speaker 1: feel like there's a divide between what's going on in

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Speaker 1: Wall Street versus corporate community. Overall, no one knows what

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Speaker 1: answer is no, that is that is so clear exactly, Sally.

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Speaker 1: Good stuff, great stuff. Thank you so much, Sally Big

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Speaker 1: while she's our Finance team leader of Bloomberg News, joining

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Speaker 1: us in our Interactive Broker studio. This is Bloomberg Business

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Speaker 1: Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic

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Speaker 1: on Bloomberg Radio. You are listening to Bloomberg Business Week

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Speaker 1: Carl Master along with Tim Stanovik in our Interactive Broker Studio.

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Speaker 1: Top of mind for us this Monday, and especially as

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Speaker 1: we wait to hear from President Biden from Brussels this

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Speaker 1: weekend's gathering at the leaders of the world's richest economies.

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Speaker 1: What needs to be top of mind really for them?

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Speaker 1: And here to get into it is Bloomberg New Economy

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Speaker 1: Editorial Director Andy brown Out with his latest column. He

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Speaker 1: joins us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio. Andy. They

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Speaker 1: talked about a lot of things, but you really kind

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Speaker 1: of whittle it down to what they really need to

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Speaker 1: be concerned with. Talk to us about this, So we

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Speaker 1: need to be concerned about vaccines, And it looked like

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Speaker 1: they were concerned about vaccines, and they are concerned about vaccines.

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Speaker 1: But they fallen short. They promised a billion additional vaccines

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Speaker 1: to the developing world, and this it was a big,

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Speaker 1: deliberately big splashy number, and it was meant to signal

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Speaker 1: the superiority over the of the free market democratic system

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Speaker 1: over the autocracies of China and Russia. And the reality

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Speaker 1: is they came up short. They didn't have a billion

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Speaker 1: new vaccines. They actually had six hundred million. And the

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Speaker 1: US came out of this the best looking, the best

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Speaker 1: it's it's kicked in five million, UK kicks in one million,

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Speaker 1: and the rest was sort of sort of calum it

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Speaker 1: up through creative accounting, accounting all of the existing pledges,

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Speaker 1: both of doses and of money. But a billion is

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Speaker 1: not enough. Yeah, we're a world round eight times that,

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Speaker 1: so we need more than that. Um. You point out

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Speaker 1: in your peace andy statistic from the Economists to notes

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Speaker 1: that uh, seventy percent, or that I should say that

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Speaker 1: magazine argues that rich nations are passing up the deal

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Speaker 1: of the century. That's that's a quote from the Economist. Um,

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Speaker 1: seventy percent of the world to get vaccinated, only fifty

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Speaker 1: billion dollars. That's not much money, right, It is not

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Speaker 1: much money. So you know what they should have said

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Speaker 1: at the meeting in Cornwall is we're the world's richest countries.

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Speaker 1: We are just going to underwrite this entire effort, whatever

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Speaker 1: it takes, and we will lobby in however many doses

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Speaker 1: it is required, because it's in everybody's best interests, including us.

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Speaker 1: The I m F says that and the accelerated vaccine

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Speaker 1: UH campaign would add something like seven trillion dollars to

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Speaker 1: the global economy, four trillion to rich countries. Right, So

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Speaker 1: that's why the economy says this is the deal of

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Speaker 1: the century, and and it looks it looks like they've

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Speaker 1: turned it down. So Andy, it's you know, above and beyond,

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Speaker 1: it's the right thing to do right for the developed

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Speaker 1: world to help out the developing world. We've talked with

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Speaker 1: was it Joseph Steglenn talked specifically about this as well

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Speaker 1: on our air. But it's just it's also there's an

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Speaker 1: economic cost by this delay, and we continue to talk

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Speaker 1: about this being it's a global health pandemic and it

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Speaker 1: doesn't know borders, and if we don't eradicate it, it

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Speaker 1: doesn't matter. It's going to kind of stay within our world. Look,

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Speaker 1: we don't even know what this cost me. The cost

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Speaker 1: could be astronomical. What would happen if it already costs?

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Speaker 1: But what's going to happen if if if we get

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Speaker 1: a variant that renders the existing vaccines ineffective, and then

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Speaker 1: we're all back to square one again? Right, Exactly where

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Speaker 1: does China come into this? Because there was a Bloomberg

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Speaker 1: Business Week story a few weeks ago that talked about

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Speaker 1: the way that many of the countries that were not

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Speaker 1: contributing to the vaccine effort around the world are missing

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Speaker 1: out because China is stepping in and saying, here, use

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Speaker 1: our vaccine. It is but you know, their vaccines aren't

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Speaker 1: as effective. They're just quite simply not as good as

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Speaker 1: Visor and Madonna and Astra Zeneca. And they've got one

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Speaker 1: point for billion people that they need to vaccinate to.

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Speaker 1: So the world can't count on China to rescue them.

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Speaker 1: It's going to be there in the end. It's going

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Speaker 1: to be the rich world that's gonna that that is

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Speaker 1: going to have to come in way, way bigger. We're

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Speaker 1: talking about billions of vaccines and not one billion. Well,

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Speaker 1: and this what's interesting to you have a quote in

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Speaker 1: your story from the Deputy General Secretary General excuse me,

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Speaker 1: of the United Nations who said this to the Wall

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Speaker 1: Street Journal. This has become the inequality of virus. It's

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Speaker 1: something we have talked about so much over the past year.

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Speaker 1: And if we don't even get this right in terms

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Speaker 1: of getting vaccines out, I mean, those gaps just widen

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Speaker 1: even further and it takes a long time to kind

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Speaker 1: of regain ground. This is a genuine catastrophe. I mean,

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Speaker 1: it unwinds so many of the gains that the emerging

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Speaker 1: world has made over the last forty fifty years, which

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Speaker 1: has resulted in hundreds of millions of people being lifted

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00:22:32,359 --> 00:22:35,520
Speaker 1: out of poverty, and now you're seeing a hundred million

430
00:22:35,680 --> 00:22:39,159
Speaker 1: or more people being plunged back into poverty. Is it

431
00:22:39,200 --> 00:22:42,720
Speaker 1: too late? It's not too late, but it needs to

432
00:22:42,760 --> 00:22:45,000
Speaker 1: happen now. And this was the other problem that came

433
00:22:45,040 --> 00:22:47,640
Speaker 1: out of Calm Well, that that these vaccine supplies were

434
00:22:47,680 --> 00:22:50,679
Speaker 1: promised in the future, sometime into next year, and of

435
00:22:50,720 --> 00:22:54,000
Speaker 1: course the pandemic is ripping right now through India and

436
00:22:54,040 --> 00:22:57,600
Speaker 1: could rip through Africa. Do we know why the priority

437
00:22:57,640 --> 00:23:00,480
Speaker 1: seems to have shifted? Do we know why that the

438
00:23:00,560 --> 00:23:04,520
Speaker 1: United States, which originally had talked about helping with a

439
00:23:04,560 --> 00:23:07,960
Speaker 1: goal such as this, Why and why other developed nations

440
00:23:08,000 --> 00:23:12,120
Speaker 1: aren't stepping up? Well, of course they prioritize domestic populations,

441
00:23:12,160 --> 00:23:15,320
Speaker 1: which of course every country, every country can and and

442
00:23:15,320 --> 00:23:18,399
Speaker 1: and should do. But and and and look, you know,

443
00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:20,600
Speaker 1: I don't want to I want to hit out at

444
00:23:20,600 --> 00:23:23,040
Speaker 1: the United States. I mean, it's it's done better than

445
00:23:23,080 --> 00:23:27,000
Speaker 1: any other country, right, five hundred million. But the fact

446
00:23:27,119 --> 00:23:30,879
Speaker 1: is that they have been vaccinated. You're now vaccinating younger

447
00:23:30,960 --> 00:23:35,360
Speaker 1: people in rich in rich countries when the vaccination program

448
00:23:35,440 --> 00:23:39,560
Speaker 1: hasn't even begun. I mean, Haiti hasn't had one vaccine, right,

449
00:23:39,640 --> 00:23:43,040
Speaker 1: So we're talking about emergency work as elderly people in

450
00:23:43,080 --> 00:23:47,480
Speaker 1: the emerging world that are completely defenseless, while younger people

451
00:23:47,480 --> 00:23:50,760
Speaker 1: who are less susceptible to the virus are being vaccinated

452
00:23:50,800 --> 00:23:53,520
Speaker 1: in rich countries. This is the kind of inequality that

453
00:23:53,560 --> 00:23:55,520
Speaker 1: the United Nations has been talking about. This is what

454
00:23:55,560 --> 00:23:56,920
Speaker 1: I want to ask you. You know, this is part

455
00:23:56,920 --> 00:23:58,840
Speaker 1: of the problem. Going back to almost day one, right,

456
00:23:58,880 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: it was like everybody is thinking about their own country

457
00:24:01,160 --> 00:24:03,040
Speaker 1: and Andy, you know, we talked about that there needed

458
00:24:03,080 --> 00:24:04,720
Speaker 1: to be a global response to this, and that we

459
00:24:04,760 --> 00:24:09,000
Speaker 1: could have said, all right, the most vulnerable globally, let's

460
00:24:09,040 --> 00:24:11,480
Speaker 1: do them first. We didn't do any of that. And again,

461
00:24:11,520 --> 00:24:14,120
Speaker 1: does it just go back to we weren't together as

462
00:24:14,160 --> 00:24:16,560
Speaker 1: a as a global community in terms of dealing with this.

463
00:24:16,800 --> 00:24:19,040
Speaker 1: I think that's exactly right, and it makes it really

464
00:24:19,160 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 1: worried about you know, if the world can't pull together

465
00:24:22,119 --> 00:24:25,439
Speaker 1: against this pandemic, what about the even greater threat of

466
00:24:25,640 --> 00:24:28,840
Speaker 1: climate change in terms of getting that done? So where

467
00:24:28,840 --> 00:24:31,360
Speaker 1: do we go from here? I mean, is there as

468
00:24:31,640 --> 00:24:35,040
Speaker 1: you know? Timid asked, is this are we too late? Um?

469
00:24:35,119 --> 00:24:38,320
Speaker 1: How do we ramp up? What can developed nations do?

470
00:24:38,359 --> 00:24:41,879
Speaker 1: At this point? The big debate now is around intellectual

471
00:24:41,880 --> 00:24:45,800
Speaker 1: property protection. The World Health Organization and others have been

472
00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:49,919
Speaker 1: calling for rich countries to waive i P protections for

473
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:53,040
Speaker 1: vaccines so that you can start getting production ramped up

474
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,119
Speaker 1: in the developing well. Joe Biden has come out behind this,

475
00:24:56,480 --> 00:24:58,320
Speaker 1: got a lot of criticism, had got a lot of

476
00:24:58,320 --> 00:25:00,919
Speaker 1: got a lot of criticisms to him. It looks like

477
00:25:00,960 --> 00:25:04,840
Speaker 1: Angelo markel uh in Germany's block this this The G

478
00:25:04,960 --> 00:25:09,640
Speaker 1: seven statement talked about ramping up manufacturing in poorer countries,

479
00:25:09,720 --> 00:25:12,960
Speaker 1: but it didn't address this this issue of IP transfer.

480
00:25:13,520 --> 00:25:16,720
Speaker 1: What's the best economic argument for the world to get

481
00:25:16,760 --> 00:25:19,560
Speaker 1: together and vaccinate the parts of the world that don't

482
00:25:19,560 --> 00:25:23,000
Speaker 1: have access. Well, it's it's it's just as as as

483
00:25:23,000 --> 00:25:29,479
Speaker 1: Carol says, the pandemic doesn't end until everybody has been vaccinated. Um,

484
00:25:29,560 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 1: and it's in everybody's economic interest and it's a moral

485
00:25:32,560 --> 00:25:36,879
Speaker 1: imperative of course to get that process started immediately. I

486
00:25:36,920 --> 00:25:38,560
Speaker 1: do wonder when we get on the other side of this,

487
00:25:38,640 --> 00:25:41,040
Speaker 1: whenever the heck that will be andy? Do we walk away?

488
00:25:41,119 --> 00:25:43,919
Speaker 1: I mean, what you folks do at New Economy, You

489
00:25:43,960 --> 00:25:47,680
Speaker 1: have these global conversations, right, and often these problems are identified,

490
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:50,200
Speaker 1: we know where they are, what needs to be done,

491
00:25:50,480 --> 00:25:53,240
Speaker 1: and yet here we are, you know, still to some extent,

492
00:25:53,280 --> 00:25:57,439
Speaker 1: dealing in crisis mode. So how do we fix this?

493
00:25:57,560 --> 00:26:02,399
Speaker 1: What do the smart voices say? You know it? In

494
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:05,840
Speaker 1: the end, I'm afraid what happened at the G seven

495
00:26:06,240 --> 00:26:10,679
Speaker 1: doesn't give us much much faith that the world is

496
00:26:10,680 --> 00:26:13,200
Speaker 1: going to fix this. I mean, these are the world's richest,

497
00:26:13,240 --> 00:26:17,400
Speaker 1: most powerful countries, you know. And and the interesting thing

498
00:26:17,440 --> 00:26:20,600
Speaker 1: was that China halved over this whole. Everything they talked

499
00:26:20,640 --> 00:26:23,520
Speaker 1: about was sort of you know, China was behind it,

500
00:26:23,560 --> 00:26:25,439
Speaker 1: and here they are coming out to say, you know,

501
00:26:25,960 --> 00:26:30,200
Speaker 1: we democracies, you know, the free market economies, we've got

502
00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:33,720
Speaker 1: the answers, and you know what an opportunity right now.

503
00:26:33,800 --> 00:26:35,760
Speaker 1: They could and should have come out and said, we're

504
00:26:35,800 --> 00:26:37,679
Speaker 1: gonna do this. We're gonna get this done. We're going

505
00:26:37,720 --> 00:26:39,920
Speaker 1: to vaccinate the world, right, that's how we're going to

506
00:26:40,040 --> 00:26:43,679
Speaker 1: demonstrate this, and it's in their power to do it. Um.

507
00:26:43,720 --> 00:26:46,000
Speaker 1: You know, they have the technology, they have the vaccines,

508
00:26:46,040 --> 00:26:49,480
Speaker 1: they certainly have the money, and they kind of felt

509
00:26:49,680 --> 00:26:52,119
Speaker 1: came up short. So wait just one more time, because

510
00:26:52,119 --> 00:26:55,200
Speaker 1: I know we're so why aren't they? Like to me,

511
00:26:55,280 --> 00:26:58,399
Speaker 1: it's a no brainer, right, And it's like I said,

512
00:26:58,480 --> 00:27:00,960
Speaker 1: you know, it's morally the right thing to do. Why

513
00:27:01,000 --> 00:27:04,240
Speaker 1: aren't they Lack of vision, lack of will, lack of

514
00:27:04,280 --> 00:27:07,879
Speaker 1: political purpose, all of the above. Politics a big thing

515
00:27:07,960 --> 00:27:10,119
Speaker 1: in terms of domestic politics for each of these folks

516
00:27:10,119 --> 00:27:12,639
Speaker 1: back at home. That's that's that's certainly part of it.

517
00:27:12,840 --> 00:27:16,240
Speaker 1: Look off to number one, Andy, Just from a logistical

518
00:27:16,359 --> 00:27:20,600
Speaker 1: point of view, I'm wondering about the number of vaccines

519
00:27:20,640 --> 00:27:23,600
Speaker 1: that that companies can actually produce right now without actually

520
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,840
Speaker 1: transferring the intellectual property. UM is it something that's feasible

521
00:27:28,000 --> 00:27:31,600
Speaker 1: within the next you know, X number of months, given

522
00:27:31,600 --> 00:27:35,000
Speaker 1: the availability of vaccine, given what we know about how

523
00:27:35,359 --> 00:27:37,920
Speaker 1: quickly companies can manufacture them, and given what we know

524
00:27:37,960 --> 00:27:40,760
Speaker 1: about distribution, Like, what's a realistic way to think about this?

525
00:27:40,920 --> 00:27:42,880
Speaker 1: If if the United States and other G seven nations

526
00:27:42,920 --> 00:27:46,760
Speaker 1: were to go to commit to getting the world vaccinated? Well,

527
00:27:46,800 --> 00:27:48,960
Speaker 1: there are there, there are, There are dozens of vaccines

528
00:27:48,960 --> 00:27:51,520
Speaker 1: in the pipeline. We just heard today about the test

529
00:27:51,600 --> 00:27:55,040
Speaker 1: results of another incredibly positive I think it was like

530
00:27:56,800 --> 00:28:01,120
Speaker 1: effect the novovax vaccines. So you know, we we've we've

531
00:28:01,160 --> 00:28:03,439
Speaker 1: got a lot coming into the pipeline. The question is

532
00:28:03,520 --> 00:28:07,320
Speaker 1: equitable distribution of what we have right? Well? And I

533
00:28:07,320 --> 00:28:09,400
Speaker 1: think which kind of shocks me is I feel like

534
00:28:09,640 --> 00:28:12,040
Speaker 1: all along the past year we kind of knew where

535
00:28:12,080 --> 00:28:14,560
Speaker 1: this was going, right, We had these conversations last year,

536
00:28:14,640 --> 00:28:17,520
Speaker 1: what about the developing world? You know, you have millions

537
00:28:17,560 --> 00:28:20,919
Speaker 1: billions of people, uh, and you look at Africa, you

538
00:28:20,920 --> 00:28:23,320
Speaker 1: look at India, you look at emerging Latin America. What

539
00:28:23,320 --> 00:28:24,760
Speaker 1: were we going to do? We knew that this was

540
00:28:24,760 --> 00:28:29,040
Speaker 1: going to be a problem. Yeah, Africa, Africa could be

541
00:28:29,040 --> 00:28:31,400
Speaker 1: the next problem. I mean, they seem to have sort

542
00:28:31,440 --> 00:28:34,399
Speaker 1: of miraculously escaped. So we don't quite know why, but

543
00:28:34,960 --> 00:28:37,159
Speaker 1: right well, I will. The last thing I'll say is

544
00:28:37,200 --> 00:28:39,160
Speaker 1: it also speaks the importance of having a single dose

545
00:28:39,200 --> 00:28:41,440
Speaker 1: shot because if you think about the respective of and

546
00:28:41,520 --> 00:28:43,640
Speaker 1: look again, I only know what what I know and

547
00:28:43,680 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 1: what I experienced here in the US, But I was

548
00:28:45,320 --> 00:28:47,920
Speaker 1: helping relatives figure out how to use the websites to

549
00:28:47,920 --> 00:28:51,200
Speaker 1: schedule their vaccines. UM. We were, you know, taking time

550
00:28:51,240 --> 00:28:53,680
Speaker 1: off of work to go to the second dose UM.

551
00:28:53,680 --> 00:28:55,560
Speaker 1: And it speaks to the importance of having a single

552
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:57,280
Speaker 1: shot to be able to do this in an effective

553
00:28:57,280 --> 00:28:58,960
Speaker 1: way if you don't have so much of the world

554
00:28:59,120 --> 00:29:03,880
Speaker 1: actually having that technology. Right well, it's a very thoughtful column,

555
00:29:03,880 --> 00:29:05,880
Speaker 1: and you know, here we are. We kind of knew

556
00:29:05,880 --> 00:29:07,880
Speaker 1: we were going to get there, but it's upsetting to see,

557
00:29:07,960 --> 00:29:10,000
Speaker 1: especially after the G seven meeting where you thought this

558
00:29:10,040 --> 00:29:12,640
Speaker 1: was the perfect environment for them to all come together. Andy,

559
00:29:12,680 --> 00:29:16,080
Speaker 1: thank you as always, Andy Andy Brown. He's our editorial

560
00:29:16,120 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: director of Bloomberg New Economy Inner Interactive Brokers Studio. You're

561
00:29:20,440 --> 00:29:24,400
Speaker 1: listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg

562
00:29:24,480 --> 00:29:28,880
Speaker 1: Quick Takes. Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Joining us now

563
00:29:29,040 --> 00:29:32,360
Speaker 1: is Joel Weber, editor a Bloomberg business Week, also Lucas Shaw,

564
00:29:32,560 --> 00:29:37,680
Speaker 1: entertainment reporter at Bloomberg News. Lucas, you have a fantastic,

565
00:29:37,880 --> 00:29:42,080
Speaker 1: fantastic feature available in the current issue of Bloomberg Business

566
00:29:42,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 1: Week magazine you can get on news stands now in

567
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:46,960
Speaker 1: at Bloomberg dot com slash business Week. It's called The

568
00:29:47,160 --> 00:29:51,440
Speaker 1: King of Cards. Tell Us Lucas who is Ken Golden Golden.

569
00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:59,440
Speaker 1: Ken Golden is a lifelong sports collectibles enthusiast hobbyist who

570
00:29:59,520 --> 00:30:02,720
Speaker 1: started electing cards and other collectibles when he was a

571
00:30:02,760 --> 00:30:05,040
Speaker 1: twelve year old kid in in South New Jersey. He

572
00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:09,040
Speaker 1: now runs what is the largest independent auction house for

573
00:30:09,080 --> 00:30:12,320
Speaker 1: sports collectibles and trading cards. Uh and the house that

574
00:30:13,200 --> 00:30:16,160
Speaker 1: so far this year has broken a new record for

575
00:30:16,200 --> 00:30:18,320
Speaker 1: sales just about every month. He's been doing this for

576
00:30:18,360 --> 00:30:22,200
Speaker 1: some time, correct. Yeah, he started Golden Auctions in two

577
00:30:22,200 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: thousand twelve. He saw, coming out of the global recession

578
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:27,880
Speaker 1: in No. Seven or oh eight, that there was an

579
00:30:27,880 --> 00:30:31,440
Speaker 1: interest in investing in alternative assets and that trading cards

580
00:30:31,480 --> 00:30:33,360
Speaker 1: would be one of those places that that all these

581
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:36,040
Speaker 1: people with excess cash would put their money. But the

582
00:30:36,080 --> 00:30:40,040
Speaker 1: business has really taken off over the last twelve eighteen months,

583
00:30:40,080 --> 00:30:42,040
Speaker 1: so much so that they had a recent auction right

584
00:30:42,080 --> 00:30:45,280
Speaker 1: and crashed the site. Is that right? Yeah? There has

585
00:30:45,320 --> 00:30:48,840
Speaker 1: been he works at this coming on simple auctions dot com.

586
00:30:48,960 --> 00:30:51,960
Speaker 1: And because Golden is such kind of a shameless self

587
00:30:52,000 --> 00:30:55,120
Speaker 1: promoter and has attracted so much attention, there are hackers

588
00:30:55,200 --> 00:31:00,240
Speaker 1: that frequently have attacked the site during his auctions. Let's

589
00:31:00,240 --> 00:31:03,480
Speaker 1: bring in Bloomberg Business Week editor Joel Weber, who joins

590
00:31:03,560 --> 00:31:06,560
Speaker 1: us now on the access line from Brooklyn. Joel, why

591
00:31:06,560 --> 00:31:09,719
Speaker 1: do you think that that that this type of asset

592
00:31:09,800 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: right now? I mean, look, Lucas said, it's it's been

593
00:31:11,880 --> 00:31:13,920
Speaker 1: having a moment over the last twelve years, but why

594
00:31:13,920 --> 00:31:16,000
Speaker 1: over the last year, over the last sixteen months, has

595
00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:19,080
Speaker 1: it really been having a moment. I think people are

596
00:31:20,000 --> 00:31:24,560
Speaker 1: craving um assets that are are slightly alternative, right, and

597
00:31:24,600 --> 00:31:27,480
Speaker 1: I think like even things like memestock sort of have

598
00:31:27,640 --> 00:31:31,320
Speaker 1: shown that so as we did in that cover story

599
00:31:31,680 --> 00:31:34,880
Speaker 1: um just a couple of months ago about sneakers being

600
00:31:34,960 --> 00:31:37,400
Speaker 1: yet another place if if you can flip something and

601
00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:41,480
Speaker 1: make a buck, h have fun doing it. H I

602
00:31:41,520 --> 00:31:44,400
Speaker 1: think all of that stuff suddenly starts to resonate in

603
00:31:44,440 --> 00:31:47,400
Speaker 1: newfound ways when you know many people have too much

604
00:31:47,440 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: time on their hands. Um. You know the question I

605
00:31:50,040 --> 00:31:52,560
Speaker 1: have for you, Lucas is, um, how much are all

606
00:31:52,560 --> 00:31:55,760
Speaker 1: these baseball cards from my childhood worth film? You know?

607
00:31:55,840 --> 00:31:57,840
Speaker 1: It depends on what kind of condition they're in? Are

608
00:31:57,920 --> 00:31:59,680
Speaker 1: if are they have you had them graded? Are they

609
00:32:00,120 --> 00:32:04,080
Speaker 1: essay eight or above? No? I have not emims grated. Um,

610
00:32:04,520 --> 00:32:07,000
Speaker 1: and I think there's um, it's a lot of like

611
00:32:07,360 --> 00:32:13,960
Speaker 1: maybe don notdingly seven tops cards. I will say it's

612
00:32:14,000 --> 00:32:17,320
Speaker 1: distressed me how much? Now? I think I could probably

613
00:32:17,360 --> 00:32:20,400
Speaker 1: look at a card and analyze all the tiny little

614
00:32:20,440 --> 00:32:22,600
Speaker 1: flaws in it. Because I had Ken sit down with

615
00:32:22,640 --> 00:32:25,400
Speaker 1: me one day to talk me through these, Like we

616
00:32:25,480 --> 00:32:28,560
Speaker 1: had ten Michael Jordan's rookie cards graded one to ten,

617
00:32:29,240 --> 00:32:31,560
Speaker 1: and I actually it was very easy to spot the

618
00:32:31,600 --> 00:32:34,640
Speaker 1: defects at the lower end. Seeing the difference between what

619
00:32:34,720 --> 00:32:36,360
Speaker 1: the p s A eight and a p S A

620
00:32:36,440 --> 00:32:39,880
Speaker 1: ten seems pretty arbitrary to me. Okay, so a grade

621
00:32:39,880 --> 00:32:43,400
Speaker 1: ten is in the example in your piece from Michael

622
00:32:43,440 --> 00:32:47,240
Speaker 1: Jordan's Michael to Michael Jordan example, a grade ten is

623
00:32:47,280 --> 00:32:50,880
Speaker 1: four hundred and eighty thousand dollars versus a Grade eight

624
00:32:50,920 --> 00:32:53,720
Speaker 1: that would be just eleven thousand, six hundred to twelve

625
00:32:53,720 --> 00:32:56,240
Speaker 1: thousand dollars. Not to mention if you go all the

626
00:32:56,240 --> 00:32:58,720
Speaker 1: way down to a Grade one, which is poor condition,

627
00:32:59,040 --> 00:33:03,240
Speaker 1: U under two three dollars. Lucas. Yeah, there's a huge

628
00:33:03,400 --> 00:33:07,280
Speaker 1: range in prices, uh, you know, all of which is

629
00:33:07,320 --> 00:33:10,400
Speaker 1: determined by these third party grading companies. P s A

630
00:33:10,840 --> 00:33:13,560
Speaker 1: is the number one, but there's also back at those others.

631
00:33:13,600 --> 00:33:17,000
Speaker 1: They have been so overwhelmed by demand this year because

632
00:33:17,000 --> 00:33:19,600
Speaker 1: of people probably like Joel, trying to get their cards graded,

633
00:33:19,880 --> 00:33:22,840
Speaker 1: that they stopped grading new cards for a period. P

634
00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:25,080
Speaker 1: s A has sworn to me that they're hoping by

635
00:33:25,160 --> 00:33:28,440
Speaker 1: July to be back up and running fully. Hey, listen,

636
00:33:28,440 --> 00:33:30,320
Speaker 1: I want to understand how this story came to be,

637
00:33:30,480 --> 00:33:32,440
Speaker 1: so Joel, what was the pict or how did it like?

638
00:33:33,160 --> 00:33:35,360
Speaker 1: How did it come especially start like this with a

639
00:33:35,440 --> 00:33:38,920
Speaker 1: character like this, As with so many things, it starts

640
00:33:38,920 --> 00:33:41,080
Speaker 1: with Lucas and I talking about something else, and then

641
00:33:41,080 --> 00:33:44,040
Speaker 1: he and then he would he emailed me a little

642
00:33:44,080 --> 00:33:45,280
Speaker 1: bit later and he goes, by the way, what are

643
00:33:45,280 --> 00:33:48,280
Speaker 1: you doing about trading cards? And I was like, nothing,

644
00:33:48,320 --> 00:33:50,800
Speaker 1: tell me more, tell me everything, And he was like, well,

645
00:33:50,840 --> 00:33:53,719
Speaker 1: there's this character that that we should profile and and

646
00:33:53,720 --> 00:33:58,360
Speaker 1: and thus began his reporting. Um uh so, So Lucas,

647
00:33:58,440 --> 00:34:01,120
Speaker 1: I'm curious, like, you know, the there's the cards that

648
00:34:01,280 --> 00:34:03,479
Speaker 1: I grew up with, and then which are, let's just

649
00:34:03,680 --> 00:34:06,320
Speaker 1: be honest, worth nothing, and then there are the cards that,

650
00:34:06,600 --> 00:34:11,960
Speaker 1: um are are truly collectibles, and they I think they

651
00:34:12,360 --> 00:34:14,799
Speaker 1: might even they might even push the envelope of like

652
00:34:14,840 --> 00:34:18,000
Speaker 1: what a card means, right, So talk to us about

653
00:34:18,000 --> 00:34:20,600
Speaker 1: where the market is has gone on that front. Yeah,

654
00:34:20,640 --> 00:34:23,919
Speaker 1: one of the things that happened a long time ago.

655
00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:27,440
Speaker 1: There used to be people would manufacture tons of different cards,

656
00:34:27,440 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: and now all the card manufacturers have gotten a lot

657
00:34:29,480 --> 00:34:31,879
Speaker 1: smarter about it, and so there are going to be

658
00:34:31,960 --> 00:34:34,440
Speaker 1: just kind of generic rookie cards which can be really valuable,

659
00:34:34,440 --> 00:34:37,239
Speaker 1: but they also make kind of one off cards or

660
00:34:37,600 --> 00:34:39,879
Speaker 1: limited sets of ten. Like there's this Luca don Chech

661
00:34:40,000 --> 00:34:42,160
Speaker 1: card that that sold early this year for more than

662
00:34:42,200 --> 00:34:44,520
Speaker 1: four million dollars, and it's because it's one of one,

663
00:34:44,600 --> 00:34:46,839
Speaker 1: and he's this guy who everybody thinks is going to be,

664
00:34:46,880 --> 00:34:49,200
Speaker 1: you know, the next Lebron the next Michael Jordan's. So

665
00:34:49,280 --> 00:34:51,120
Speaker 1: there's been a lot of a lot of efforts to

666
00:34:51,280 --> 00:34:56,040
Speaker 1: restrict supply and create special editions to kind of create scarcity,

667
00:34:56,080 --> 00:34:59,040
Speaker 1: because that's like any market, it booms based on scarcity.

668
00:34:59,400 --> 00:35:02,640
Speaker 1: There's also the added wrinkle sort of where do n

669
00:35:02,680 --> 00:35:05,279
Speaker 1: f T s fit into this, because they're kind of

670
00:35:05,360 --> 00:35:07,960
Speaker 1: like trading cards, but they're not like trading cards. And

671
00:35:08,040 --> 00:35:10,600
Speaker 1: even Ken Golden has started to sell them in his auctions,

672
00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:12,840
Speaker 1: none of them have generated as much money as the

673
00:35:13,120 --> 00:35:14,719
Speaker 1: top of the top of the line trading cards, but

674
00:35:14,760 --> 00:35:17,040
Speaker 1: they still go for tens of thousands of dollars. So

675
00:35:17,040 --> 00:35:18,960
Speaker 1: that's what I was just going to ask you about

676
00:35:19,040 --> 00:35:20,920
Speaker 1: Lucas or n f T s and if that's sort

677
00:35:20,960 --> 00:35:23,000
Speaker 1: of the way in for the next generation, or if

678
00:35:23,040 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 1: the next generation is going to continue with the classics.

679
00:35:26,040 --> 00:35:28,600
Speaker 1: I think that a lot of the people buying these

680
00:35:28,640 --> 00:35:32,760
Speaker 1: cards now are the next generation. They're younger people buying

681
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:37,040
Speaker 1: Pokemon cards. They're also buying basketball cards. The real shift

682
00:35:37,480 --> 00:35:40,279
Speaker 1: in the collectibles market here has been from people who

683
00:35:40,280 --> 00:35:43,320
Speaker 1: want to buy the Don Mattingly cards, the old baseball,

684
00:35:43,360 --> 00:35:46,719
Speaker 1: old school baseball cards, the people who want the the

685
00:35:46,800 --> 00:35:52,560
Speaker 1: contemporary athlete, especially in like basketball, football, soccer. They a

686
00:35:52,600 --> 00:35:54,480
Speaker 1: lot of people have compared it to a form of

687
00:35:54,520 --> 00:35:57,880
Speaker 1: gambling or form of fantasy sports where you are, you know,

688
00:35:57,920 --> 00:36:00,720
Speaker 1: you see somebody play well and their value will jump

689
00:36:01,120 --> 00:36:02,719
Speaker 1: in the market, or you see somebody have an off

690
00:36:02,719 --> 00:36:04,479
Speaker 1: game and maybe you go in to buy it because

691
00:36:04,560 --> 00:36:06,960
Speaker 1: you think that their prime to actually play really well

692
00:36:07,000 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: for the rest of the season. What about my POGs,

693
00:36:11,560 --> 00:36:14,239
Speaker 1: I think you're you're, you're, you're your out of luckments.

694
00:36:14,280 --> 00:36:19,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if much about right now, Lucas. You

695
00:36:19,480 --> 00:36:22,240
Speaker 1: had a number of really good voices in the story.

696
00:36:22,239 --> 00:36:24,360
Speaker 1: I'm curious what was your what was your favorite interview

697
00:36:24,440 --> 00:36:26,000
Speaker 1: that you got to do and what and what was

698
00:36:26,040 --> 00:36:31,200
Speaker 1: the insight that you got from it. Um, It's a

699
00:36:31,239 --> 00:36:34,399
Speaker 1: good question. Uh, there were a lot of good ones.

700
00:36:34,440 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: I mean, I love talking to Bill Simmons, who's a

701
00:36:36,320 --> 00:36:39,480
Speaker 1: lifelong collector and who has who has looked at space

702
00:36:39,480 --> 00:36:41,360
Speaker 1: for a long time. I like talking to Kevin Durant's

703
00:36:41,400 --> 00:36:45,200
Speaker 1: business partner, Um, because Kevin Durant has gotten really into collecting.

704
00:36:45,320 --> 00:36:47,160
Speaker 1: We didn't even end up getting to quote him in

705
00:36:47,160 --> 00:36:49,760
Speaker 1: the story, but Kevin Durant has gotten really into collecting

706
00:36:49,800 --> 00:36:51,799
Speaker 1: his own cards. And there was an auction that I

707
00:36:51,880 --> 00:36:55,719
Speaker 1: was monitoring, uh in in in March that Ken did,

708
00:36:55,840 --> 00:36:57,840
Speaker 1: and he had been on the phone with Kevin Durant's

709
00:36:57,840 --> 00:37:00,480
Speaker 1: business partner earlier in the day strategizing to get this

710
00:37:00,520 --> 00:37:03,239
Speaker 1: one rookie card, and then over the course of the night,

711
00:37:03,320 --> 00:37:06,600
Speaker 1: Kevin Durant his partners based in New York, fell asleep

712
00:37:07,080 --> 00:37:09,800
Speaker 1: and the Ken didn't have the clearance to go above

713
00:37:09,840 --> 00:37:12,000
Speaker 1: a certain price threshold to bid on it. So Kevin

714
00:37:12,080 --> 00:37:15,719
Speaker 1: Durant ended up getting out bid for his own rookie card. Um,

715
00:37:16,160 --> 00:37:20,959
Speaker 1: which was just funny to hear. Uh, Steve Cohen, there's

716
00:37:20,960 --> 00:37:25,359
Speaker 1: an aspect of this story, right. Steve Cohen, along with

717
00:37:25,719 --> 00:37:30,040
Speaker 1: this collector, Nat Turner, who was probably the most helpful

718
00:37:30,080 --> 00:37:35,000
Speaker 1: collector that I spoke with, bought this bought Collectors Universe,

719
00:37:35,000 --> 00:37:36,800
Speaker 1: which is the parent company of that grating firm p

720
00:37:36,960 --> 00:37:39,160
Speaker 1: s A. Nat Turner. By the way, this guy who

721
00:37:39,360 --> 00:37:42,120
Speaker 1: you know, he sold his healthcare company along with his

722
00:37:42,200 --> 00:37:44,840
Speaker 1: co founder for like one point nine billion dollars to

723
00:37:45,000 --> 00:37:47,600
Speaker 1: Rosch a few years ago and has since. He is

724
00:37:47,719 --> 00:37:49,960
Speaker 1: he is sitting on so many different cards, is so

725
00:37:50,040 --> 00:37:52,239
Speaker 1: much value that he doesn't know how many cards he

726
00:37:52,320 --> 00:37:54,719
Speaker 1: has or what they're worth. He just knows that all told,

727
00:37:54,760 --> 00:37:58,520
Speaker 1: he's probably got like cards that are worth at least

728
00:37:58,520 --> 00:38:01,840
Speaker 1: a few hundred dollars apiece. So how much is Golden

729
00:38:01,920 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 1: really making off all of this? His firm takes a

730
00:38:06,920 --> 00:38:11,640
Speaker 1: cut from every sale so so far this year, I

731
00:38:11,680 --> 00:38:14,280
Speaker 1: think they're at like a hundred fifty or two hundred

732
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: million dollars in sales, which means that his company is

733
00:38:17,040 --> 00:38:19,600
Speaker 1: taking thirty to forty million, which by the way, is

734
00:38:19,640 --> 00:38:22,520
Speaker 1: more than they made in total sales, like the net

735
00:38:22,560 --> 00:38:24,840
Speaker 1: sales from just a couple of years ago. You know,

736
00:38:24,960 --> 00:38:28,440
Speaker 1: he he sold his majority stake in his company earlier

737
00:38:28,480 --> 00:38:30,920
Speaker 1: this year for about forty million dollars, mostly to a

738
00:38:30,920 --> 00:38:32,600
Speaker 1: company called the Churning Group. But there were a ton

739
00:38:32,640 --> 00:38:35,759
Speaker 1: of celebrity investors, and I spoke with Ken not long

740
00:38:35,800 --> 00:38:37,720
Speaker 1: after that deal closed, which at the time it seems

741
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:39,440
Speaker 1: like a lot of money because he'd never made anything

742
00:38:39,440 --> 00:38:41,680
Speaker 1: close to it, and he already felt like he probably

743
00:38:42,280 --> 00:38:44,560
Speaker 1: sold too soon and didn't get enough given given the

744
00:38:44,600 --> 00:38:47,279
Speaker 1: amount of money that's not coming in for him. Hey,

745
00:38:47,360 --> 00:38:49,799
Speaker 1: lucas Um, when I when I think about the work

746
00:38:49,800 --> 00:38:51,920
Speaker 1: that you've you've done over the last year, I think

747
00:38:51,960 --> 00:38:54,240
Speaker 1: a lot about well a lot of course media reporting,

748
00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:55,759
Speaker 1: but a lot about the way that you've written about

749
00:38:55,800 --> 00:39:00,760
Speaker 1: the way that musicians have sold their catalogs to private

750
00:39:00,760 --> 00:39:03,120
Speaker 1: equity investors and how some investors are treating those as

751
00:39:03,120 --> 00:39:05,759
Speaker 1: an asset class. Is there any connection here to what

752
00:39:05,760 --> 00:39:08,040
Speaker 1: we're seeing with with trading cards? And I know you

753
00:39:08,120 --> 00:39:09,880
Speaker 1: do mention this in the piece, but what is the

754
00:39:09,880 --> 00:39:12,760
Speaker 1: connection between the way that that investors are thinking about

755
00:39:12,840 --> 00:39:16,600
Speaker 1: this type of asset um It's a little I do.

756
00:39:16,680 --> 00:39:19,400
Speaker 1: I think it's related in that there is just too

757
00:39:19,480 --> 00:39:23,680
Speaker 1: much money out there among people to deploy the differences.

758
00:39:23,960 --> 00:39:26,800
Speaker 1: Is music makes a lot of sense to an average

759
00:39:26,800 --> 00:39:29,440
Speaker 1: investor because it performs kind of like a bond. It's

760
00:39:29,480 --> 00:39:32,080
Speaker 1: just an annuity, right, You're like buying an asset that's

761
00:39:32,120 --> 00:39:36,600
Speaker 1: gonna you generate a very reliable amount of money every year,

762
00:39:36,880 --> 00:39:38,600
Speaker 1: and you're betting that that's going to keep going up

763
00:39:38,640 --> 00:39:42,279
Speaker 1: because of streaming. Trading cards does feel a little bit

764
00:39:42,320 --> 00:39:46,160
Speaker 1: more like art, where it's kind of arbitrary people choose

765
00:39:46,200 --> 00:39:49,640
Speaker 1: to just set the market um. But you know, you

766
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:52,160
Speaker 1: could also, like I said earlier with the gambling, you

767
00:39:52,160 --> 00:39:54,279
Speaker 1: could argue that this is sort of like playing the

768
00:39:54,280 --> 00:39:57,160
Speaker 1: stock market, where you're betting different players. As an individual

769
00:39:57,239 --> 00:40:00,040
Speaker 1: stock you're basically by buying a card of John and

770
00:40:00,239 --> 00:40:03,319
Speaker 1: you're basically buying a stock a piece of a piece

771
00:40:03,320 --> 00:40:05,919
Speaker 1: of stock in his long term value. Alright, we're gonna

772
00:40:06,000 --> 00:40:08,120
Speaker 1: leave it on that note. It's a great I'm sorry, Joel,

773
00:40:08,120 --> 00:40:09,920
Speaker 1: did you have a last one? Oh? I just was

774
00:40:09,920 --> 00:40:12,839
Speaker 1: gonna the One of the other things that this UM

775
00:40:13,040 --> 00:40:15,840
Speaker 1: story and in the accompanying video that was also an

776
00:40:15,880 --> 00:40:18,719
Speaker 1: incredible UM revealed to me is that there's thing I

777
00:40:18,760 --> 00:40:21,600
Speaker 1: think called a break, which is like truly like kind

778
00:40:21,600 --> 00:40:25,200
Speaker 1: of a public service announcement, I guess so, So, Lucas,

779
00:40:25,360 --> 00:40:27,960
Speaker 1: can you quickly describe what a break is and how

780
00:40:27,960 --> 00:40:30,440
Speaker 1: I can get in on it? So when you you

781
00:40:30,520 --> 00:40:33,000
Speaker 1: can buy a box of cards, right, and each one

782
00:40:33,040 --> 00:40:35,960
Speaker 1: of these boxes has several packs within it. And one

783
00:40:36,000 --> 00:40:38,920
Speaker 1: thing that has become very popular on YouTube and Instagram,

784
00:40:38,920 --> 00:40:40,759
Speaker 1: which is how a lot of young people have gotten

785
00:40:40,760 --> 00:40:44,080
Speaker 1: into it, is they make a display of opening these

786
00:40:44,080 --> 00:40:46,040
Speaker 1: boxes and going through it because there's a there's an

787
00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:48,279
Speaker 1: element of surprise right where you open that pack and

788
00:40:48,320 --> 00:40:50,120
Speaker 1: you're going through, it's like want oh, and then on

789
00:40:50,160 --> 00:40:52,040
Speaker 1: the seventh hard happens to be the thing that's gonna

790
00:40:52,040 --> 00:40:55,600
Speaker 1: be really valuable. So Ken breaks every week on Instagram

791
00:40:55,600 --> 00:40:58,800
Speaker 1: with his son. Bill Simmons, the sports writer breaks often

792
00:40:58,800 --> 00:41:01,360
Speaker 1: with his son on Instagram and Ken Golden Flute to

793
00:41:02,280 --> 00:41:04,440
Speaker 1: l A and part earlier this year because he did

794
00:41:04,480 --> 00:41:07,960
Speaker 1: a like a Pokemon break with Logan Paul, the YouTube celebrity.

795
00:41:08,000 --> 00:41:10,440
Speaker 1: So this is a huge thing in youth culture right now.

796
00:41:10,520 --> 00:41:14,720
Speaker 1: I've seen that online. Um, great stuff and a great read, Lucas,

797
00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:16,880
Speaker 1: Thank you so much. Entertainment report at Bloomberg News on

798
00:41:16,920 --> 00:41:19,680
Speaker 1: the phone in Los Angeles, Joe Weber, Editor Bloomberg Business

799
00:41:19,680 --> 00:41:21,920
Speaker 1: Week on the remote access from Brooklyn, and they're actually,

800
00:41:22,440 --> 00:41:25,560
Speaker 1: I guess tried and entertainment pitching an unscripted TV show

801
00:41:26,040 --> 00:41:28,320
Speaker 1: set in the world of trading cards, and we produced

802
00:41:28,320 --> 00:41:31,560
Speaker 1: by a former ESPN executive and a Pond Stars producer,

803
00:41:31,600 --> 00:41:33,120
Speaker 1: which was I was thinking, this has a Pond Stars

804
00:41:33,160 --> 00:41:35,480
Speaker 1: element to it right big time. Yeah. Look, after reading

805
00:41:35,480 --> 00:41:38,480
Speaker 1: this piece by Lucas in Bloomberg Business Week, I'm thinking, Okay,

806
00:41:38,520 --> 00:41:39,920
Speaker 1: this is something I want to know more about. And

807
00:41:39,960 --> 00:41:45,719
Speaker 1: also my pods. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week.

808
00:41:45,800 --> 00:41:49,400
Speaker 1: Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud or Bloomberg dot com,

809
00:41:49,440 --> 00:41:51,080
Speaker 1: and you can also listen to our radio show at

810
00:41:51,120 --> 00:41:54,200
Speaker 1: two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, or watch US on YouTube.

811
00:41:54,320 --> 00:41:58,719
Speaker 1: Search Bloomberg Global News