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Speaker 1: Sports was seen as the toy department when I was

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Speaker 1: into business, like oh sports, eh, right, that not to

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Speaker 1: be taken seriously.

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Speaker 2: Welcome to off the cup, my personal anti anxiety antidote.

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Speaker 3: Let me tell you, being a woman in my business

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Speaker 3: is tough.

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Speaker 2: It's for all the reasons you can think of, the sexism,

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Speaker 2: the agism, harassment, undermining insecurities, but it's also just hard

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Speaker 2: sometimes to be a woman with opinions about things that

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Speaker 2: men care about. That's true of politics, it's especially true

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Speaker 2: of sports, and as you know, I live in the

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Speaker 2: world of politics where putting my finger on the hot

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Speaker 2: stove is literally what I'm paid to do. I'm hired

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Speaker 2: for my opinions on controversial, polarizing, emotional issues, and that

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Speaker 2: doesn't always ingratiate me with readers and viewers and listeners

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Speaker 2: who disagree. That's the job, but that manifests some times

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Speaker 2: as nasty comments, comments that are vulgar, that are about

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Speaker 2: what I look like or how I dress, but also

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Speaker 2: threatening comments, hate mail, death threats, and sometimes some very

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Speaker 2: scary situations, and very few people luckily know what this

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Speaker 2: is like. My next guest, I'm sure does. Jamal Hill

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Speaker 2: is a world famous sports journalist, a woman with opinions

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Speaker 2: in a male dominated field. She also puts her hand

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Speaker 2: on the hot stove. And although it may seem like

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Speaker 2: sports is lower stakes than politics, it is not.

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Speaker 3: I know this.

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Speaker 2: I also covered sports when I was coming up, works

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Speaker 2: at Sports Illustrated, I worked at NASCAR dot Com, maxim

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Speaker 2: and I'm sure she'll tell you sports isn't always just

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Speaker 2: about sports. It's gender, it's race, it's politics. It's all

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Speaker 2: the issues that get us really worked up and emotional, angry,

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Speaker 2: sometimes passionate, and she does.

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Speaker 3: It with a bravery that very few people have.

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Speaker 2: I've always really admired her, and sometimes our work even

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Speaker 2: crosses over and we get to do TV together.

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Speaker 3: Which is fun.

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Speaker 2: Jamel has written for The Raleigh News and Observer, the

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Speaker 2: Detroit Free Press, the Orlando Sentinel, The Atlantic.

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Speaker 3: She was an ESPN ESPN two host.

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Speaker 2: She's an Emmy winner, up podcaster, author of Uphill, a memoir.

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Speaker 1: Welcome to Off the Cup, Jamel Hill, what any tremendous intro?

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Speaker 1: Thank you so much. That was really kind of you

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Speaker 1: to say all those things. I don't know that I've

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Speaker 1: ever been called world famous.

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Speaker 3: You are.

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Speaker 2: You're a world famous sports journalist. I mean that's undeniable everything.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, I mean sometimes that always for reasons I would think.

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Speaker 3: But yeah, I guess you mean, I know what you mean.

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Speaker 4: I know you can relate.

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Speaker 3: I can't.

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Speaker 2: And That's what I'm excited about for this podcast because

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Speaker 2: I interview a lot of people, a lot of famous people,

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Speaker 2: people with incredible careers, and you clearly fit into that category.

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Speaker 2: But I don't know that I've interviewed someone yet for

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Speaker 2: this podcast who who knows this life the way you

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Speaker 2: know this life. And by this life, I mean what

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Speaker 2: we do for a living and being women in it.

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Speaker 2: And so I just know we have so much to

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Speaker 2: talk about and we're gonna get.

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Speaker 3: To all of it.

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Speaker 2: But first I just got to know, Jamille. I need

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Speaker 2: to know your take because my for you page is

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Speaker 2: completely overwhelmed by Caitlin and Sophie Cunningham, the drama and

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Speaker 2: the shoves and the and I'm here for it. I

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Speaker 2: am here for it. I want to know your take,

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Speaker 2: especially because people you know, people I know, rich Eison,

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Speaker 2: Dave Portinoay, I know these guys.

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Speaker 3: I like these guys.

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Speaker 2: All these men are running to talk about WNBA. They're

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Speaker 2: talking about how it's the best league in town, it's

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Speaker 2: the greatest league to watch.

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Speaker 3: Blah blah blah, blah blah. You've done this a long time.

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Speaker 2: What is your take on what's going on in the

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Speaker 2: WNBA and also the way the men are covering it?

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Speaker 1: Well, I can't speak to Rich because who I know

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Speaker 1: and I like, yeah very much, because I haven't heard

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Speaker 1: a ton of his commentary about.

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Speaker 4: Kaitlyn clarker what's happening in the WNBA.

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Speaker 1: I have unfortunately seen games, and I can't say I'm

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Speaker 1: a fan. Tell me, and I will just make this

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Speaker 1: broad generalization. I think the men are struggling to talk

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Speaker 1: about the WNBA, and mostly it is because they haven't

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Speaker 1: been talking about the WNBA. So there's a certain amount

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Speaker 1: of institutional knowledge that they lack that shows up. And

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Speaker 1: one of the ways it shows up is in this

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Speaker 1: moment where we're coming off another scuffle that involves Kaitlyn

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Speaker 1: Clark and the pearl clutching and the oh my god.

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Speaker 1: Is what is really amazing to me because this league

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Speaker 1: from its inception, My first professional beat I ever covered

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Speaker 1: was a WNBA, and so this was back in nineteen

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Speaker 1: ninety eight when I was in Raleigh.

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Speaker 4: The Charlotte team.

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Speaker 1: Charlotte's about two and a half hours from Raleigh, and

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Speaker 1: because this new league was starting, I asked my bosses

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Speaker 1: if I could cover the Charlotte WNBA franchise because I

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Speaker 1: thought it was such a unique moment in our sports

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Speaker 1: history that you would have women who are able to

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Speaker 1: play professional basketball on American soil and be propped up

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Speaker 1: in this way and in a way that they never had,

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Speaker 1: and so have a woman cover that and have a

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Speaker 1: woman covering this, I think was important. And I already

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Speaker 1: covered a lot of college women's basketball at that point,

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Speaker 1: so this was just sort of a natural evolution. So

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Speaker 1: I learned a lot about the league, its origins, the players,

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Speaker 1: how it started, most importantly understanding how the game is

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Speaker 1: played in the sense that it's a much more physical

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Speaker 1: league and the NBA they have really toned down the physicality.

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Speaker 1: I mean, I was an NBA fan of the eighties,

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Speaker 1: where you had the bad Boy Pistons, you had the Celtics,

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Speaker 1: you had teams that were you know and even bleeding

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Speaker 1: over into the late eighties.

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Speaker 4: Early nineties with the knicks and the heat and how

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Speaker 4: they played right like it was a physical game.

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Speaker 1: Oh yeah, correct, Those were physical games, you know, Charles Oakley,

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Speaker 1: Anthony Mason like, people knew that there was a certain

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Speaker 1: brand of physicality attached to the NBA, and they went

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Speaker 1: through a period where because all the games were like

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Speaker 1: ninety to eighty, they were like, no, no, we need

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Speaker 1: we need some more offits okay, So they relaxed a

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Speaker 1: lot of the physical rules and fans complained about it.

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Speaker 1: They still do complain about it. They're like, oh, that's

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Speaker 1: two tiki tak, it's not physical enough. What happened to

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Speaker 1: playoff files and blah blah blah blah blah and thenforcers

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Speaker 1: and goons. The WNBA is how the NBA used to

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Speaker 1: be during that time, and this says, well, it's it's

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Speaker 1: a physical league. And because we have a lot of

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Speaker 1: people in their minds, especially men, have it in their

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Speaker 1: minds of how women are supposed to compete and because

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Speaker 1: I think they have to admit, some of it makes

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Speaker 1: them uncomfortable seeing how women compete.

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Speaker 4: And that comes through in their commentary.

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Speaker 1: So when they're talking about these women, a lot of

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Speaker 1: you know, they're calling them names, and especially when it

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Speaker 1: comes to Caitlin Clark, the babing and the coddling of

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Speaker 1: her is insulting. This woman is a competitor, like with

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Speaker 1: that whole rumble that started with her with the fever

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Speaker 1: and the sun. In some ways, Caitlyn instigated that because

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Speaker 1: she's gonna talk her trash and she's gonna wag her tongue.

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Speaker 1: She and I love it, and I'm here for it.

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Speaker 1: I embrace it, do all the things as long as

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Speaker 1: we keep that same energy for everybody. So don't say

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Speaker 1: it's cool for Kaitlyn to do it, but then when

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Speaker 1: somebody else does it, then it's like, oh, I can't

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Speaker 1: believe they're doing this to Kaitlyn Clark. It's like Kaitlyn

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Speaker 1: Clark will be insulted by the baby and the coddling

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Speaker 1: and people basically wanting someone to lay down.

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Speaker 4: Their jacket over the puddle so she could step off.

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Speaker 3: She doesn't want to be rescued.

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Speaker 1: She doesn't want to be rescued, and they keep trying

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Speaker 1: to do this. So a lot of the commentary is

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Speaker 1: about how Caitlyn Clark needs to be protected. Why she

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Speaker 1: didn't ask for that. She asked, She asked.

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Speaker 4: For the smoke.

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Speaker 1: She wants the smoke, all of it, okay, And so

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Speaker 1: let her get it all right. And so that's the

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Speaker 1: part that really insenses me about hearing the coverage. And

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Speaker 1: then on top of that, this whole narrative that the

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Speaker 1: players are jealous of Caitlyn Clark, which is I'm like, guys,

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Speaker 1: are we talking about the WNBA or are we talking

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Speaker 1: about Real Housewives of Atlanta? Hey, y'all making a scene

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Speaker 1: like we talking about Real Housewives of Atlanta. We're not

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Speaker 1: talking about Yeah, Okay, their job, her job is to score.

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Speaker 4: Their job is to stop her.

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Speaker 3: Yep.

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Speaker 1: And because and she even said this in the Time

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Speaker 1: magazine piece that was done on her when she won Athlete.

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Speaker 4: Of the Year.

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Speaker 1: Now, when she was in college, the way she was guarded,

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Speaker 1: she was like, frankly, it was soft because the depth

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Speaker 1: of competition is not there in the WNBA. Every night

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Speaker 1: she's facing somebody who was a college star, and you

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Speaker 1: know what, they don't want to be.

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Speaker 4: Embarrassed by her.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, they're picking her up ninety feet because they're

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Speaker 1: not trying to get a low go three shot in

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Speaker 1: they face. That is not them being jealous of Kaitlin Clark.

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Speaker 1: That is them guarding Kaitlyn Clark. And yes, because she

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Speaker 1: pushes off sometimes again she talks her trash, they gonna

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Speaker 1: get physical with her because that's what you do with

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Speaker 1: a shooter. So I have been very annoyed with how

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Speaker 1: and this also is what bothers me and talk about

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Speaker 1: a double standard. There are men that I have seen

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Speaker 1: comment on Caitlin Clark on the WNBA in the last

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Speaker 1: let's say two years, probably longer than that, because they

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Speaker 1: really started when she became a phenomenon, just period, just

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Speaker 1: starting from the college level. They will say in one breath,

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Speaker 1: I mean, I never watched it a WNBA, or I

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Speaker 1: don't watch women's basketball, but here are my opinions that

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Speaker 1: you should take seriously. Exactly. I'm like, I'm sorry, excuse me,

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Speaker 1: because I can tell you something right now. And see

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Speaker 1: I can't get on nobody's air waves and say, you

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Speaker 1: know what, I never watched the NFL, But let me

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Speaker 1: tell you what I think about Patrick Mahomes. They would

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Speaker 1: laugh me out the building in the women's sports arena.

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Speaker 1: Because men hold a lot of these prominent positions in

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Speaker 1: sports media, it is entirely acceptable that their lack of

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Speaker 1: knowledge is like weaponized and competence.

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Speaker 3: Like, of course you don't watch it, of course you

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Speaker 3: don't we know you call.

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Speaker 4: Us, but still tell us, still give us your opinion.

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Speaker 2: What would happen if someone saw you at a basketball

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Speaker 2: game on your phone playing Solitaire?

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Speaker 1: I mean they they gave stephen A all the crap

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Speaker 1: for that. And I can say having been at you know,

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Speaker 1: obviously being at ESPN, being at twelve years and with

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Speaker 1: having my own show, it's like I used to say

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Speaker 1: that about being my co host. We used to talk

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Speaker 1: about this and All Air Off talked about this. My

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Speaker 1: former co host, Michael Smith, dear friend of mine, Mike

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Speaker 1: could mispronounce somebody's name, he could get a stat wrong

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Speaker 1: and it'd be fine.

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Speaker 2: I do that.

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Speaker 1: It's go right for Cosmo. It's why you on my TV.

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Speaker 1: It's you know, so any woman who got caught doing

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Speaker 1: that what stephen A was doing and listen, I get it,

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Speaker 1: Like I'm not going to pretend that every single second

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Speaker 1: of every sport of it is compelling.

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Speaker 3: But yet it's no, you can't make mistakes. You're not

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Speaker 3: allowed to.

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Speaker 1: Be You're not that like they have they have clown

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Speaker 1: stephen A. You know, he left it. He left. Listen,

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Speaker 1: they getting all the repshots in right, and that's fine,

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Speaker 1: But I could promise you if it was a woman,

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Speaker 1: and it would be entire thing pieces about why women

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Speaker 1: belong in sports coverage, why women shouldn't be there, this

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Speaker 1: is why women. I'd have to hear all the things.

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Speaker 1: So he got off light compared to what I will

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Speaker 1: receive if they call me playing solitaire. And by the way,

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Speaker 1: my game is Bejeweled, So they probably would.

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Speaker 5: Have called you.

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Speaker 3: They'd have a whole thing to say about that.

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Speaker 1: Oh my god, I'd be paying from some places.

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Speaker 3: It's like, all right, well, I'm glad I got you

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Speaker 3: on that.

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Speaker 2: It's that team is so fun to watch now with

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Speaker 2: with Caitlin and Sophie, and I love sid Colston is

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Speaker 2: like one of the funniest.

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Speaker 1: Oh she's the funniest woman ended up Boba, Like I want.

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Speaker 2: To watch her on the bench more than I want

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Speaker 2: to watch her play, because her antics on the bench,

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Speaker 2: Oh my god.

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Speaker 1: She is.

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Speaker 4: She is incredible.

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Speaker 1: But I will say this, and this can be my

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Speaker 1: last word on it, is that I thought last year

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Speaker 1: Indiana they have pushed her out a little bit some

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Speaker 1: at times, and I think they were still trying to

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Speaker 1: figure out team chemistry, team dynamics, those kind of things

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Speaker 1: because people have to realize that once they draft Kaitlyn

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Speaker 1: Clark is like training camp is not even a month later.

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Speaker 1: Like it's a very quick turnaround. So they got off

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Speaker 1: to a very bad start and because of that, I think,

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Speaker 1: you know, the fact they were able to recover from that.

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Speaker 1: I think that Olympic break was actually really good for them.

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Speaker 1: And I know people are like, she should have been

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Speaker 1: on the Olympic team. I was like, trust me, it

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Speaker 1: will serve her well not being on this Olympic team.

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Speaker 1: She'll be on the next one for sure. Yeah, but

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Speaker 1: it will serve her well because of the needed transition.

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Speaker 1: She needed the break.

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Speaker 4: And so this year what I love about having Sophie them.

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Speaker 1: Having who is known for some goonish behavior, and I

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Speaker 1: love it and I'm here for it, much like Marina Maybrey.

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Speaker 4: No goon Okay, she is somebody not to be played with.

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Speaker 1: And so to see them all mix it up together,

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Speaker 1: I thought it showed Indiana was sending a message like, hey,

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Speaker 1: you not just gonna punk us like we here, And

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Speaker 1: so I think that that's good for their team chemistry

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Speaker 1: and I think it's good for their personality. Yes, good

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Speaker 1: for the sport.

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Speaker 4: And so these men sitting up there talking about what

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Speaker 4: a bad look is for the lead.

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Speaker 1: Same men again who constantly complained about the NBA players

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Speaker 1: are too friendly, it's not enough physicality in the league.

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Speaker 4: Okay, keep that same energy.

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Speaker 3: Okay, let's go back a little bit before we get

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Speaker 3: into your career. What kind of kid were you?

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Speaker 1: So nobody who knows. We would be surprised that I

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Speaker 1: would have that attitude about seeing the physicality because I

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Speaker 1: was a rough and tumble kid.

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Speaker 4: I was the neighborhood tomboy.

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Speaker 1: You know. I loved playing sports. You know, people asked me, well,

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Speaker 1: when did you start liking sports.

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Speaker 4: I was like, I don't know.

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Speaker 1: It was just naturally always been a part of me.

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Speaker 1: It was like its naturalist breathing. It's like, you know,

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Speaker 1: I love competition. I love playing sports. Being the neighborhood.

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Speaker 4: You know, we play street football, we play freeze bag,

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Speaker 4: we played baseball.

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Speaker 1: We play a ton of things.

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Speaker 4: And I was always in the mix.

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Speaker 1: Because I was a pretty athletic girl, and baseball wound

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Speaker 1: up being my sports. So I played fast pitch, softball,

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Speaker 1: play slow pitch too in you know, coming up, I

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Speaker 1: played shortstop, play center field. Always had a strong arm,

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Speaker 1: so yeah, back then, I actually had some wheels now,

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Speaker 1: but so, yeah, I was. I was a kid who

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Speaker 1: just enjoyed competition and I love sports, and back in

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Speaker 1: those days, you had to actually read about your sports

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Speaker 1: teams in something called a newspaper. Yeah, I know, you

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Speaker 1: held it in your hand.

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Speaker 2: Yeah.

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Speaker 5: Like.

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Speaker 1: And so, because I was a big baseball fan, the Tigers,

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Speaker 1: Detroit Tigers were the first team that I really loved.

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Speaker 1: And my mother used to clean houses, and so she

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Speaker 1: cleaned the houses for this like elderly white man who

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Speaker 1: lived in the southwest part of Detroit, and he got

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Speaker 1: a subscription to the News in the Free Press, the

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Speaker 1: two local papers, and so she had to bring me

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Speaker 1: along because like childcare ha ha ha, what is that,

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Speaker 1: especially especially when you are as poor as we were,

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Speaker 1: Definitely wasn't a feasibility.

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Speaker 4: So I would have to go with her.

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Speaker 1: And so I would sit there like at his kitchen table,

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Speaker 1: and I would just read the sports sections front to back,

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Speaker 1: back to front in both papers. So that's sort of

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Speaker 1: what developed a curiosity with journalism, was reading about sports.

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Speaker 1: And I put it together like, oh you can you

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Speaker 1: can actually write about sports.

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Speaker 4: This is interesting to me.

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Speaker 1: And so I was already a voracius reader. Anyway, as

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Speaker 1: a kid, I was a cool nerd as I like

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Speaker 1: to think.

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Speaker 4: And so yeah, I didn't get I didn't get stuffed

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Speaker 4: in any.

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Speaker 1: Lockers because I would. I'm like, remember I was a

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Speaker 1: competitive athlete. Yeah, I got it to plenty of fights

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Speaker 1: with boys.

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Speaker 4: Trust me, they ain't want it.

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Speaker 3: Uh huh.

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Speaker 1: So yeah, like I mean, I was curious. I was

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Speaker 1: somebody who really understood the powered language, the power words,

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Speaker 1: and the power of storytelling very early because of the

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Speaker 1: voracious way that I read book, was always in the library,

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Speaker 1: was always reading, journaling, writing like this was very much

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Speaker 1: a part of my existence.

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Speaker 2: Was writing the focus when when you were coming up,

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Speaker 2: you know you're thinking, Okay, when I get out to

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Speaker 2: the world, I'm gonna I'm I want to do this

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Speaker 2: in written form? Or did Jeb broadcast in mind as well?

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Speaker 4: I ever wanted to do broadcast? Never and no it

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Speaker 4: just to do it and here sold out.

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Speaker 3: Well listen.

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Speaker 2: I mean, I came up as a writer and never

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Speaker 2: imagined I'd be on TV. In fact, se was the

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Speaker 2: byline I chose in college because I thought I'll be

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Speaker 2: gender neutral and anonymous, because no one's ever going to

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Speaker 2: see me, I'm just going to be this writer. And

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Speaker 2: then once TV calls and for me, I said yes

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Speaker 2: because it promoted the writing and it got me more

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Speaker 2: writing jobs.

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Speaker 3: But eventually it pays better, and so you know, you

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Speaker 3: end up who says no. It's tough to say no.

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Speaker 1: Yeah, because I think for a long time I thought

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Speaker 1: to her, a dude, yeah because of that. Yeah, because

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Speaker 1: you because you you wrote for Sports Illustrated. Correct, I did.

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Speaker 3: I wrote a long a long time before I got

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Speaker 3: on TV.

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Speaker 1: I ran because I remember reading you there because I

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Speaker 1: had a Sports Illustrated.

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Speaker 4: So that was so that was my goal.

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Speaker 1: My goal was never ESPN. My goal was Sports Illustrated.

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Speaker 1: Like I wanted so badly to work for Sports Illustrated.

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Speaker 1: They were number one on the vision board. And I

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Speaker 1: tell journalists, younger journalists when they asked me about my

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Speaker 1: career and how to break in the industry, and I

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Speaker 1: tell them I was like, I'm not trying to be

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Speaker 1: a jerk, but like, I'm literally not the person you

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Speaker 1: should ask, because I've known since the tenth grade that

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Speaker 1: I wanted to be a sports writer, not just a writer,

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Speaker 1: not just you know, like I wanted to specifically be

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Speaker 1: a sports writer.

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Speaker 4: I started writing for my high.

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Speaker 1: School newspaper covering sports, did some journalism programs eleventh and

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Speaker 1: twelfth grade. I was working answering phones in the sports

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Speaker 1: department of the Detroit Free Press. I joined the National

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Speaker 1: Association of Black Journalists when I was sixteen.

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Speaker 4: Because their convention was in Detroit.

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Speaker 1: And when I went to Michigan State, a majored in journalism,

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Speaker 1: you know, started off in sports, and then, you know,

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Speaker 1: then they told it was actually not super easy to

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Speaker 1: find newspapers that had sports internships. A lot of them

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Speaker 1: had news internships, as you know, but having a sports

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Speaker 1: one was a little bit somewhat unique for the time.

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Speaker 1: You know, we're talking about the early mid nineties. And

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Speaker 1: my first sports internship was at the Playing Dealer in Cleveland.

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Speaker 1: So I did a lot of minor league ball, covering

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Speaker 1: the Canton Akron Indians and yeah, as they were known then,

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Speaker 1: obviously the Guardians now, and so that team, that Cleveland

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Speaker 1: team was really good in baseball that summer, and so

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Speaker 1: I got to cover a lot of stuff, and then

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Speaker 1: you know, went to Raleigh cover sports.

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Speaker 5: There.

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Speaker 1: They hired me out of my internship, and so my

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Speaker 1: entire time I'm thinking I'm working to be as Sports Illustrated, right,

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Speaker 1: I mean I love those stories. I just couldn't imagine

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Speaker 1: like writing on that kind of platform, doing these long

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Speaker 1: form stories. Yeah. Gary Smith was like that was my guy,

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Speaker 1: you know. I loved him so much the stories that

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Speaker 1: he told. And when I was twenty two, Sports Illustrated

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Speaker 1: actually offered me a job. When I was twenty two

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Speaker 1: and working in Raleigh, I had just won.

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Speaker 3: It took you a really long time to get there.

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Speaker 1: Well, I never did, so, I often all. I got

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Speaker 1: the call. And the reason Richard D. Meck that was

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Speaker 1: his name, and the reason I didn't go was because

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Speaker 1: they were offering me the gig as writer reporter and

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Speaker 1: as you know, that was more like fact checking, right,

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Speaker 1: that kind of stuff. And I wanted to write for

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Speaker 1: Sports Illustrated. And it was the first time I ever

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Speaker 1: been to New York.

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Speaker 4: They flew me in.

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Speaker 1: I think they put me up at the the It

415
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Speaker 1: was called the Park of Meridian then it was we

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Speaker 1: had how Central Park. You're right, it's this love of

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Speaker 1: Meridian now. Yeah. And so as much as I was

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Speaker 1: enamored with the place and in love with working there,

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Speaker 1: I was on a really good trajectory in Raley.

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Speaker 4: I was writing whatever I wanted. I had just won a.

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Speaker 1: State award for Best Sports Feature, and I just as

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Speaker 1: like to stop that to fact check. I don't want.

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Speaker 1: It was because it meant living in New York. Now, granted,

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Speaker 1: they was trying to pay forty seven thousand dollars a year,

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Speaker 1: and while it was more than when I was making,

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Speaker 1: it's also New York City. So I was like, oh,

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Speaker 1: so I'm gonna be living with six other people.

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Speaker 3: I got it.

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Speaker 1: So but I turned him down, and I remember Richard

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Speaker 1: said this to me, and I never forgot this. He said,

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Speaker 1: I'm glad you turned it down. We can afford you now.

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Speaker 1: I promise you we won't be able to afford you later. Awesome,

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Speaker 1: that's what he told me. And uh, you know, I

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Speaker 1: never as much as I was still thinking like, okay,

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Speaker 1: maybe today's of the day, but I will one day

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Speaker 1: work for sports Illustrated, that moment never happened. And I

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Speaker 1: can't say that it was. It was bad that it

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Speaker 1: didn't happen, but it is amazing to your point about

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Speaker 1: like how your dreams and how things evolve, you know,

440
00:20:34,240 --> 00:20:35,800
Speaker 1: as you know, back then it was much more of

441
00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,680
Speaker 1: a much more of a staunch demarcation line between print

442
00:20:39,760 --> 00:20:42,000
Speaker 1: and broadcast, yes, right, and print.

443
00:20:41,840 --> 00:20:43,760
Speaker 4: People didn't fool with broadcasts.

444
00:20:43,359 --> 00:20:45,840
Speaker 3: Like that exactly just and it does everything.

445
00:20:46,359 --> 00:20:49,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, now everyone does everything. But then it was the

446
00:20:49,240 --> 00:20:52,520
Speaker 1: idea we thought, we thought of ourselves as the real journalist.

447
00:20:54,200 --> 00:20:57,200
Speaker 3: So clothes run TV right exactly.

448
00:20:56,920 --> 00:20:59,280
Speaker 1: With that little pretty hair, and you know, all they're

449
00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:01,680
Speaker 1: doing is regard entertaining our stories, like we had some

450
00:21:01,800 --> 00:21:04,760
Speaker 1: real beef with them, right in terms of it was

451
00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:07,960
Speaker 1: looked down upon if you jumped to television. And that

452
00:21:08,119 --> 00:21:10,679
Speaker 1: started to change, And I would say like the mid

453
00:21:10,760 --> 00:21:13,000
Speaker 1: two thousands in my career where I saw more of

454
00:21:13,040 --> 00:21:17,080
Speaker 1: my colleagues doing TV doing radio, And when I transitioned

455
00:21:17,640 --> 00:21:21,440
Speaker 1: into column writing in Orlando, which was my first column job,

456
00:21:22,000 --> 00:21:24,920
Speaker 1: that's when I started to see the potential of TV.

457
00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:27,600
Speaker 1: But even then I still didn't entertain it. Like when

458
00:21:27,600 --> 00:21:29,159
Speaker 1: I got to ESPN, they didn't hire me to be

459
00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,240
Speaker 1: a television person. They hired me to be a writer.

460
00:21:32,359 --> 00:21:34,800
Speaker 1: I was writing for ESPN dot com and it was

461
00:21:34,960 --> 00:21:38,760
Speaker 1: only after talk about a name. I guess that lives

462
00:21:38,880 --> 00:21:41,600
Speaker 1: a little bit now in infamy. It was seeing Matt

463
00:21:41,800 --> 00:21:45,840
Speaker 1: Lawer's contract that changed my mind at that time. I

464
00:21:45,880 --> 00:21:47,879
Speaker 1: think he had negotiated a deal where he got like

465
00:21:48,000 --> 00:21:52,000
Speaker 1: twenty three twenty four million dollars a year and all

466
00:21:52,080 --> 00:21:56,000
Speaker 1: this you think, right exactly, And I was like, that's

467
00:21:56,359 --> 00:22:00,560
Speaker 1: possible in television. I'm not saying I'm gonna make twenty three,

468
00:22:00,640 --> 00:22:02,360
Speaker 1: but if I made two, I'm good.

469
00:22:03,040 --> 00:22:03,760
Speaker 3: If I write one.

470
00:22:04,280 --> 00:22:06,720
Speaker 1: If I made six hundred thousand, like it just it

471
00:22:06,880 --> 00:22:09,240
Speaker 1: blew my mind that they would be paying that kind

472
00:22:09,280 --> 00:22:10,919
Speaker 1: of money for somebody on TV. I was like, I've

473
00:22:10,920 --> 00:22:15,600
Speaker 1: been looking at this all wrong. And so after kind

474
00:22:15,640 --> 00:22:18,200
Speaker 1: of after that, it put a battery, uh, you know,

475
00:22:18,400 --> 00:22:21,680
Speaker 1: in my back, and I went full throttle into doing television.

476
00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:24,520
Speaker 1: So yeah, the lesson your kids, it's all right to

477
00:22:24,560 --> 00:22:25,200
Speaker 1: go for the money.

478
00:22:26,240 --> 00:22:28,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean, and I'm sure you made the same

479
00:22:28,280 --> 00:22:29,200
Speaker 3: calculation I did.

480
00:22:29,280 --> 00:22:32,520
Speaker 2: As long as I could keep writing, I would, you know,

481
00:22:32,680 --> 00:22:34,880
Speaker 2: I'd go, I'd do TV, and I write for TV.

482
00:22:35,000 --> 00:22:36,360
Speaker 3: I always wrote my own scripts.

483
00:22:37,240 --> 00:22:40,320
Speaker 2: But it was also, you know, I would always approach

484
00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:44,600
Speaker 2: any new contract with yes, but you must carve out

485
00:22:44,640 --> 00:22:48,320
Speaker 2: all my writing elsewhere because I'm never giving up the

486
00:22:48,680 --> 00:22:50,240
Speaker 2: you know, book writing and columns.

487
00:22:50,240 --> 00:22:53,360
Speaker 3: I'm never giving that up. So I made the same calculation.

488
00:22:53,480 --> 00:22:54,200
Speaker 3: The money is great.

489
00:22:54,280 --> 00:22:57,040
Speaker 2: It's a much more stable job because you get these

490
00:22:57,240 --> 00:23:01,639
Speaker 2: contracts that can last for several years, and you get exposure.

491
00:23:01,760 --> 00:23:03,480
Speaker 2: Your writing gets exposure.

492
00:23:04,119 --> 00:23:04,480
Speaker 3: It's all.

493
00:23:05,040 --> 00:23:08,440
Speaker 2: All of that is good, but it comes with some

494
00:23:08,680 --> 00:23:13,120
Speaker 2: really not great parts. I'm sure you know what I'm

495
00:23:13,160 --> 00:23:17,960
Speaker 2: talking about. Don't go anywhere. There's war with Jammel Hill.

496
00:23:17,920 --> 00:23:32,359
Speaker 3: After the break. I'm wondering if you look back at

497
00:23:32,440 --> 00:23:36,360
Speaker 3: that decision to say yes to TV.

498
00:23:38,040 --> 00:23:40,920
Speaker 2: In that moment, do you ever look back and think, Oh,

499
00:23:41,119 --> 00:23:45,879
Speaker 2: I kind of regret walking down this path, or do

500
00:23:45,960 --> 00:23:47,040
Speaker 2: you take all the good.

501
00:23:47,240 --> 00:23:47,880
Speaker 3: With all the bad?

502
00:23:49,040 --> 00:23:52,040
Speaker 1: Oh? No, I don't regret it because it changed my

503
00:23:52,119 --> 00:23:56,280
Speaker 1: life and say, oh, yeah, it changed my life. And

504
00:23:56,640 --> 00:23:59,240
Speaker 1: I don't mean that from the standpoint of oh it

505
00:23:59,320 --> 00:24:01,159
Speaker 1: made me more know or it made me more famous,

506
00:24:01,240 --> 00:24:03,680
Speaker 1: Like I don't care about that party. The part that

507
00:24:03,800 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: changed for me was being able to break certain generational

508
00:24:07,720 --> 00:24:10,040
Speaker 1: elements in my family. And I read about this in

509
00:24:10,119 --> 00:24:13,239
Speaker 1: my memoir is you Know? You asked me what kind

510
00:24:13,280 --> 00:24:15,240
Speaker 1: of kid I was? And while everything I said was

511
00:24:15,280 --> 00:24:17,280
Speaker 1: obviously true and I wrote about it in my book,

512
00:24:17,359 --> 00:24:20,360
Speaker 1: the other part of it was that my mom had

513
00:24:20,520 --> 00:24:23,680
Speaker 1: substance abuse issues. You know, I grew up on welfare

514
00:24:24,240 --> 00:24:27,280
Speaker 1: like it was a lot of issues, trauma that ran

515
00:24:27,359 --> 00:24:31,200
Speaker 1: through my family as a child, and I think the

516
00:24:31,359 --> 00:24:35,600
Speaker 1: lack of financial stability that I experienced growing up was

517
00:24:36,520 --> 00:24:39,080
Speaker 1: what was deep rooted and it was also very traumatic

518
00:24:39,119 --> 00:24:40,800
Speaker 1: for me to deal with. So the one thing that

519
00:24:40,920 --> 00:24:42,720
Speaker 1: TV gave me was wealth.

520
00:24:43,359 --> 00:24:44,119
Speaker 4: That's what it gave me.

521
00:24:44,359 --> 00:24:47,280
Speaker 1: And that might seem to some people shallow, but when

522
00:24:47,280 --> 00:24:49,920
Speaker 1: you're coming from where I came from, that means a lot.

523
00:24:50,040 --> 00:24:51,320
Speaker 1: It meant a lot to me That I was able

524
00:24:51,359 --> 00:24:53,199
Speaker 1: to buy my mother a house, it means a lot

525
00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,240
Speaker 1: to me. Or not a house, excuse me. I was

526
00:24:55,280 --> 00:24:57,360
Speaker 1: able to buy her a car. It meant a lot

527
00:24:57,440 --> 00:25:01,600
Speaker 1: to me that, you know, essentially retired her like a

528
00:25:01,720 --> 00:25:03,960
Speaker 1: decade ago or so it might be longer, like about

529
00:25:03,960 --> 00:25:08,000
Speaker 1: a decade ago. And so that that's what TV got me.

530
00:25:08,320 --> 00:25:10,200
Speaker 1: I could never as much as I love writing and

531
00:25:10,280 --> 00:25:14,560
Speaker 1: it will always be my passion, my foundation and very

532
00:25:14,640 --> 00:25:17,520
Speaker 1: much in my DNA, writing wasn't gonna give me that. Yep,

533
00:25:17,600 --> 00:25:19,840
Speaker 1: I don't think so, because, as you know, there's only

534
00:25:19,880 --> 00:25:21,880
Speaker 1: so much to going to pay a writer. For sure,

535
00:25:22,359 --> 00:25:24,359
Speaker 1: you write a best selling book, it comes to a movie, Like,

536
00:25:24,520 --> 00:25:27,000
Speaker 1: there's other ways you can certainly make that happen, but

537
00:25:27,119 --> 00:25:29,840
Speaker 1: with TV it's a quicker path, you know.

538
00:25:30,000 --> 00:25:32,240
Speaker 4: It's like it's like you can get to the money

539
00:25:32,320 --> 00:25:32,680
Speaker 4: to do that.

540
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,520
Speaker 1: And so even now, like living in Los Angeles and

541
00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:38,479
Speaker 1: having the life I've been able to create for myself,

542
00:25:38,720 --> 00:25:42,040
Speaker 1: none of that happens without TV. So as much as

543
00:25:42,760 --> 00:25:45,720
Speaker 1: it does bring you a lot of drama, as much

544
00:25:45,800 --> 00:25:48,119
Speaker 1: as yes, it has brought me death threats, Yes, it

545
00:25:48,200 --> 00:25:51,400
Speaker 1: has brought me mysogyny and racism and all these other

546
00:25:51,520 --> 00:25:53,680
Speaker 1: things that I would prefer not to be caught the

547
00:25:53,800 --> 00:25:55,960
Speaker 1: N word every other day. I would literally prefer that.

548
00:25:56,160 --> 00:26:01,880
Speaker 1: Yes it's true, but that to me is pales into

549
00:26:02,000 --> 00:26:04,840
Speaker 1: what the life I've been able to build for myself

550
00:26:04,920 --> 00:26:07,399
Speaker 1: as a result. Yeah, I get that. I don't regret it.

551
00:26:07,560 --> 00:26:09,719
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, And there's no shame in that. I mean,

552
00:26:10,240 --> 00:26:10,639
Speaker 3: I get that.

553
00:26:11,520 --> 00:26:15,360
Speaker 2: When you were at ESPN, tell me how it came

554
00:26:15,480 --> 00:26:18,879
Speaker 2: to be that you started waiting into politics.

555
00:26:19,119 --> 00:26:21,080
Speaker 3: Was this your decision where you pushed to do this?

556
00:26:21,480 --> 00:26:24,200
Speaker 2: Did it happen organically because politics and sports were just

557
00:26:24,680 --> 00:26:26,359
Speaker 2: crossing over constantly?

558
00:26:26,520 --> 00:26:30,600
Speaker 3: Like how did that happen? In that ESPN chapter?

559
00:26:31,200 --> 00:26:35,320
Speaker 1: Well, the one thing I'm grateful for is coming up

560
00:26:35,359 --> 00:26:39,200
Speaker 1: the newspaper way. You I essentially professionally grew up in newsrooms,

561
00:26:39,280 --> 00:26:40,760
Speaker 1: and you know, newsrooms are electric.

562
00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:42,520
Speaker 4: It's where conversations head.

563
00:26:42,960 --> 00:26:45,719
Speaker 1: It's the best. Like the fact that journalists now they

564
00:26:45,720 --> 00:26:47,359
Speaker 1: don't even get that same experience anymore.

565
00:26:47,560 --> 00:26:49,679
Speaker 3: There aren't newsrooms, honestly because.

566
00:26:49,400 --> 00:26:52,960
Speaker 1: The one there aren't newsrooms. People are working remotely, and

567
00:26:53,560 --> 00:26:55,320
Speaker 1: you know, it's just not the same the energy of

568
00:26:55,359 --> 00:26:57,320
Speaker 1: a newsroom. That is what sucked me in and made

569
00:26:57,320 --> 00:26:57,960
Speaker 1: me want to be away.

570
00:26:58,000 --> 00:27:00,840
Speaker 2: I'm so glad you said this, and I want you

571
00:27:00,880 --> 00:27:02,880
Speaker 2: to continue, but I'm so glad you said this because

572
00:27:02,920 --> 00:27:06,920
Speaker 2: people today, if they're of a certainty, under a certain age,

573
00:27:06,960 --> 00:27:09,720
Speaker 2: they have no idea what you're talking about. And when

574
00:27:09,720 --> 00:27:11,880
Speaker 2: I tell you, like, the first newsroom that I worked

575
00:27:11,920 --> 00:27:15,399
Speaker 2: in was in college, from my college newspaper. It was

576
00:27:15,400 --> 00:27:19,200
Speaker 2: an independent paper. I eventually became editor of the Arts

577
00:27:19,359 --> 00:27:23,560
Speaker 2: and Entertainment section. And over in the other corner is

578
00:27:23,640 --> 00:27:27,320
Speaker 2: the editor of the sports section, and he's constantly throwing

579
00:27:27,359 --> 00:27:30,280
Speaker 2: footballs at my desk to try to hit my computer right.

580
00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,240
Speaker 2: And then over here in this corner is the editor

581
00:27:33,280 --> 00:27:36,720
Speaker 2: of the news department, and I'm prank calling him from

582
00:27:36,800 --> 00:27:38,720
Speaker 2: my desk to his desk constantly.

583
00:27:39,320 --> 00:27:41,480
Speaker 3: And when I tell you, like it was the most

584
00:27:41,680 --> 00:27:44,400
Speaker 3: fun I've ever had.

585
00:27:44,520 --> 00:27:46,520
Speaker 2: I have not had that much fun at work since

586
00:27:46,680 --> 00:27:50,600
Speaker 2: that newsroom up until four in the morning. I would

587
00:27:50,600 --> 00:27:52,480
Speaker 2: have stayed up until eight in the morning, didn't care.

588
00:27:53,160 --> 00:27:56,840
Speaker 2: It was the best experience, and you fed off each other,

589
00:27:57,000 --> 00:27:59,440
Speaker 2: and you were in the trenches together and you learned

590
00:27:59,440 --> 00:28:02,320
Speaker 2: from each other. These are still some of my best friends.

591
00:28:03,200 --> 00:28:06,680
Speaker 2: People today are robbed of that experience.

592
00:28:06,880 --> 00:28:07,920
Speaker 3: It is not the same.

593
00:28:09,280 --> 00:28:13,199
Speaker 1: I mean, I just immediately about one hundred memories came

594
00:28:13,240 --> 00:28:15,240
Speaker 1: flooding back. As I said, I went to Michigan State.

595
00:28:15,320 --> 00:28:17,720
Speaker 1: I worked at the State News, which was our independent

596
00:28:17,720 --> 00:28:21,880
Speaker 1: college newspaper. I was managing editor, I was campus editor

597
00:28:21,960 --> 00:28:24,240
Speaker 1: at a bunch of different reporting jobs, and it was

598
00:28:24,280 --> 00:28:28,800
Speaker 1: the same for me. Is that, Hey, we pulled silly

599
00:28:28,840 --> 00:28:31,520
Speaker 1: pranks on each other. We had this tradition that we

600
00:28:31,680 --> 00:28:35,560
Speaker 1: called cookie Day. So every we had a staff representative,

601
00:28:35,920 --> 00:28:39,560
Speaker 1: and so that person came around and collected whatever money

602
00:28:39,600 --> 00:28:41,400
Speaker 1: that we had that we could give up dollar, a

603
00:28:41,440 --> 00:28:44,280
Speaker 1: couple dollars, some change, whatever. They took. All the money

604
00:28:44,320 --> 00:28:46,560
Speaker 1: pulled together from the newsroom went to the grocery store

605
00:28:46,640 --> 00:28:49,160
Speaker 1: and bought nothing but sugar, like all the cookies, all

606
00:28:49,200 --> 00:28:51,840
Speaker 1: the candy, all the treats, all the potato chips, and

607
00:28:52,080 --> 00:28:55,720
Speaker 1: we ordered pizza. This was like some hunger game shit

608
00:28:55,920 --> 00:28:59,760
Speaker 1: like it was. So then the person that went to

609
00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,600
Speaker 1: get and it would come in drop it on this

610
00:29:02,760 --> 00:29:04,200
Speaker 1: one table that we had in the back of the

611
00:29:04,240 --> 00:29:05,760
Speaker 1: newsroom and it was a free for all.

612
00:29:05,840 --> 00:29:07,760
Speaker 4: You guys, you got one plate as much food.

613
00:29:07,600 --> 00:29:09,560
Speaker 1: As you can. Everybody was like fighting for it. I

614
00:29:09,680 --> 00:29:11,800
Speaker 1: was like, why did we do this? Because that's just

615
00:29:11,880 --> 00:29:13,120
Speaker 1: dumb stuff you do in college.

616
00:29:13,160 --> 00:29:16,440
Speaker 4: It's just what it is, right, And so that energy,

617
00:29:16,480 --> 00:29:16,720
Speaker 4: as you.

618
00:29:16,720 --> 00:29:20,400
Speaker 1: Said, because you're not just these are people that you know,

619
00:29:20,480 --> 00:29:22,160
Speaker 1: I'm sure many of your colleagues that you were with,

620
00:29:22,400 --> 00:29:24,560
Speaker 1: then they go on and do amazing things, like a

621
00:29:24,640 --> 00:29:28,040
Speaker 1: lot of my friends went on and became reporters and editors,

622
00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:30,360
Speaker 1: or some just left the business and did cool business stuff.

623
00:29:30,760 --> 00:29:34,080
Speaker 4: And so like that energy of a newsroom is really

624
00:29:34,200 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 4: hard to replicate.

625
00:29:36,680 --> 00:29:39,200
Speaker 1: And so but I'm thankful that I grew up in

626
00:29:39,280 --> 00:29:42,760
Speaker 1: that culture of newsrooms, because one ain't nothing like a

627
00:29:42,800 --> 00:29:45,080
Speaker 1: newsroom argument like people think arguing on TV.

628
00:29:45,320 --> 00:29:47,960
Speaker 4: I was like that ain't nothing compared to a news room.

629
00:29:48,240 --> 00:29:51,240
Speaker 1: So true, it's like that's where you I mean, little

630
00:29:51,320 --> 00:29:53,760
Speaker 1: did I know then that I'm fine tuning my skills

631
00:29:53,800 --> 00:29:57,040
Speaker 1: about debating and discussing and that kind of thing. I

632
00:29:57,160 --> 00:29:59,680
Speaker 1: said that in the barroom argument, like when journalists go

633
00:29:59,680 --> 00:30:01,720
Speaker 1: out to a bar, is like, we're gonna be arguing

634
00:30:01,760 --> 00:30:02,800
Speaker 1: for days, so we'll.

635
00:30:02,640 --> 00:30:05,800
Speaker 3: Shut the place down, right, we will shut the places down.

636
00:30:06,600 --> 00:30:11,040
Speaker 1: And so that is one of those sort of hidden,

637
00:30:11,400 --> 00:30:15,040
Speaker 1: like really wonderful things about journalism. It reminds me of

638
00:30:15,120 --> 00:30:17,360
Speaker 1: when I hear players who retire talk about this all

639
00:30:17,400 --> 00:30:20,280
Speaker 1: the time. Is that sure they can play in the games,

640
00:30:20,360 --> 00:30:22,680
Speaker 1: and they missed the games and the competition, but they

641
00:30:22,760 --> 00:30:23,440
Speaker 1: really miss as.

642
00:30:23,320 --> 00:30:23,920
Speaker 4: The locker room.

643
00:30:24,200 --> 00:30:25,880
Speaker 1: And so our version of the locker room.

644
00:30:25,840 --> 00:30:26,480
Speaker 4: Was the newsroom.

645
00:30:26,680 --> 00:30:29,200
Speaker 1: And so I really miss the newsroom and I kind

646
00:30:29,200 --> 00:30:33,040
Speaker 1: of always will. But I forgot your original question.

647
00:30:33,240 --> 00:30:37,840
Speaker 3: It's my fault. I asked you about about the moment politics.

648
00:30:38,320 --> 00:30:40,080
Speaker 4: Oh it right?

649
00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:44,160
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, yes, so naturally of course one, as I mentioned,

650
00:30:44,440 --> 00:30:46,520
Speaker 1: sports was seen as the toy department when I was

651
00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 1: in the business, like, oh, sports running not to be

652
00:30:50,840 --> 00:30:54,840
Speaker 1: taken seriously. And so my first few internships and even

653
00:30:55,520 --> 00:30:58,520
Speaker 1: they were in news and so like I covered cops.

654
00:30:58,600 --> 00:31:00,360
Speaker 1: Like my first internship was at the Line and News

655
00:31:00,400 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 1: and Limeo cover cops. And then the next summer I

656
00:31:03,920 --> 00:31:06,320
Speaker 1: covered features for the Detroit Free Press. I was there

657
00:31:07,080 --> 00:31:09,040
Speaker 1: they their reporters went on strike and they had to

658
00:31:09,080 --> 00:31:11,880
Speaker 1: send me to the Philadelphia Inquirer, where I covered news,

659
00:31:11,920 --> 00:31:14,200
Speaker 1: and I remember my big front page story was, I

660
00:31:14,240 --> 00:31:18,400
Speaker 1: mean RIPM and everything was when Jerry Garcia died and

661
00:31:18,600 --> 00:31:21,000
Speaker 1: so there was a huge visual in Philly and I

662
00:31:21,040 --> 00:31:22,560
Speaker 1: got on the front page and I was so excited,

663
00:31:22,680 --> 00:31:25,000
Speaker 1: not excited he died, but very excited to be Yeah,

664
00:31:25,520 --> 00:31:28,680
Speaker 1: on the front page. Got it. And so like I

665
00:31:28,800 --> 00:31:32,120
Speaker 1: do have a news background. Yeah, and just in general,

666
00:31:32,240 --> 00:31:34,360
Speaker 1: I think the number one element you have to have

667
00:31:34,440 --> 00:31:36,840
Speaker 1: to be a journalist is curiosity. So while I did

668
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,360
Speaker 1: love sports and I paid attention to everything happened in sports,

669
00:31:39,400 --> 00:31:41,200
Speaker 1: I'm also a citizen. I'm also a.

670
00:31:41,240 --> 00:31:43,880
Speaker 4: Person living in American Yeah, paying attention.

671
00:31:44,240 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: And some of my favorite columnists were people who are

672
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:50,040
Speaker 1: not sports columnists, like and I read the Washington Post religiously,

673
00:31:50,600 --> 00:31:53,000
Speaker 1: you know. It was my favorite publication to read coming up.

674
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,240
Speaker 1: So of course I were at the Post and the

675
00:31:54,320 --> 00:31:56,920
Speaker 1: Times and not just their sports section. I'm reading this

676
00:31:57,000 --> 00:31:59,400
Speaker 1: thing covered the cover. So I've always naturally had an

677
00:31:59,480 --> 00:32:02,160
Speaker 1: interest in it. And in my family, we talked about

678
00:32:02,200 --> 00:32:05,000
Speaker 1: politics a lot, and you know, there was so many

679
00:32:05,040 --> 00:32:09,920
Speaker 1: family arguments, Oh lord, you about politics, right, So that

680
00:32:10,160 --> 00:32:13,640
Speaker 1: also was part of that curiosity, and so a ESPN

681
00:32:14,600 --> 00:32:17,680
Speaker 1: this did not happen a lot. And I always find

682
00:32:17,760 --> 00:32:21,080
Speaker 1: it interesting to the degree which people think we talked

683
00:32:21,080 --> 00:32:25,320
Speaker 1: about politics versus how many times we did, Like, oh yeah,

684
00:32:25,360 --> 00:32:28,400
Speaker 1: I mean I'm on TV. I did daily television every

685
00:32:28,480 --> 00:32:31,840
Speaker 1: day for five years. The number of times where we

686
00:32:31,960 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 1: talked about some issue where sports and politics were colliding,

687
00:32:36,240 --> 00:32:38,160
Speaker 1: maybe I don't even think it got to ten percent.

688
00:32:38,320 --> 00:32:42,360
Speaker 1: It was maybe five percent. But the reason ESPN felt

689
00:32:42,400 --> 00:32:45,240
Speaker 1: political to a lot of people was I think it's

690
00:32:45,280 --> 00:32:49,440
Speaker 1: a number of reasons. One, I think some people outside

691
00:32:49,480 --> 00:32:53,280
Speaker 1: of ESPN, so called sports media critics, really were able

692
00:32:53,360 --> 00:32:56,000
Speaker 1: to elevate their platform by coming after ESPN. You go

693
00:32:56,120 --> 00:32:59,280
Speaker 1: after the biggest kid on the blot, right. So one

694
00:32:59,360 --> 00:33:01,160
Speaker 1: of the turning point points when I was there is

695
00:33:01,240 --> 00:33:05,400
Speaker 1: when Caitlyn Jenner won the Arthur ash Kurage Award at

696
00:33:05,440 --> 00:33:09,080
Speaker 1: the SPIS And you know, I understood why she was

697
00:33:09,200 --> 00:33:11,400
Speaker 1: able to get the award Arthur ashe is a real person,

698
00:33:11,480 --> 00:33:12,960
Speaker 1: But the SP's were made up. You know why the

699
00:33:13,080 --> 00:33:16,840
Speaker 1: sps exist. They exist because in the summer, once the

700
00:33:16,960 --> 00:33:19,280
Speaker 1: NBA Finals is done and you have baseball, there's this

701
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:22,720
Speaker 1: lag between the end of the NBA and the starter football.

702
00:33:22,880 --> 00:33:26,440
Speaker 1: So ESPN basically manufactured an event and an award ceremony

703
00:33:26,560 --> 00:33:28,640
Speaker 1: to kind of get you through the lag. So I'm like,

704
00:33:28,720 --> 00:33:31,120
Speaker 1: it's a made up show. It's like yeah. So for

705
00:33:31,240 --> 00:33:35,440
Speaker 1: people lost it when Caitlyn Jenner got this award, and

706
00:33:35,520 --> 00:33:39,160
Speaker 1: it made sense why she did because you know, anybody

707
00:33:39,200 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 1: who pays attention to the trans community, like the suicide

708
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:46,000
Speaker 1: suicide rates are high, and there's other mental health issues

709
00:33:46,040 --> 00:33:48,360
Speaker 1: going on in that community, and she had been a

710
00:33:48,400 --> 00:33:51,600
Speaker 1: real advocate in talking about these issues, and especially when

711
00:33:51,640 --> 00:33:55,160
Speaker 1: it came to younger transgender people and being an athlete

712
00:33:55,640 --> 00:33:59,080
Speaker 1: having a certain position. Gavin the war all hell broglus

713
00:33:59,080 --> 00:34:01,479
Speaker 1: all of a sudden esp and you know, lost their

714
00:34:01,600 --> 00:34:03,760
Speaker 1: mind and keep in mind, is one of the highest

715
00:34:03,840 --> 00:34:07,840
Speaker 1: righted SBCs I've ever had, save that award. So that

716
00:34:08,040 --> 00:34:11,560
Speaker 1: was like sort of one one thing that happened. And

717
00:34:11,600 --> 00:34:14,880
Speaker 1: then Colin Kaepernick cappening exactly right, And when Colin Kaeperdick

718
00:34:14,920 --> 00:34:18,399
Speaker 1: happened to twenty sixteen, when he took a knee during

719
00:34:18,440 --> 00:34:22,240
Speaker 1: the national anthem to bring awareness to protest against police

720
00:34:22,280 --> 00:34:25,280
Speaker 1: brutality and all these social justice issues happening in the country.

721
00:34:25,920 --> 00:34:28,080
Speaker 1: You know, suddenly the sports and the politics are colliding

722
00:34:28,120 --> 00:34:29,480
Speaker 1: in ways that a lot of people don't like.

723
00:34:30,040 --> 00:34:31,960
Speaker 3: And how could you not cover that? Right?

724
00:34:32,160 --> 00:34:33,440
Speaker 1: Like, which is what I say.

725
00:34:33,600 --> 00:34:35,440
Speaker 2: I was like, Hey, it's what are you meant to

726
00:34:35,760 --> 00:34:39,520
Speaker 2: ignore the biggest story involving your sport and the rest

727
00:34:39,560 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 2: of the country.

728
00:34:40,360 --> 00:34:44,279
Speaker 1: Like, well, the NFL is the most popular sport in America, right,

729
00:34:44,520 --> 00:34:46,560
Speaker 1: you have this happening. You know, you know how people

730
00:34:46,560 --> 00:34:49,839
Speaker 1: feel about the national Anthem. Donald Trump is campaigning at

731
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:54,360
Speaker 1: the time, bringing in Colin Kaeperdick, putting a bullseye on

732
00:34:54,480 --> 00:34:57,040
Speaker 1: an NFL player. So all of this stuff is colliding.

733
00:34:57,640 --> 00:35:00,960
Speaker 1: And what I want people to real it wasn't like

734
00:35:01,080 --> 00:35:05,640
Speaker 1: you were turning on ESPN and we're suddenly breaking down immigration.

735
00:35:06,080 --> 00:35:08,760
Speaker 1: That's not what was happening. We were talking about sports

736
00:35:09,239 --> 00:35:12,880
Speaker 1: as it intersected with politics in really big ways that

737
00:35:13,040 --> 00:35:18,439
Speaker 1: we can't really ignore. But unfortunately, sometimes for people even

738
00:35:18,480 --> 00:35:21,000
Speaker 1: a little bit of politics, and to me, it gets

739
00:35:21,040 --> 00:35:23,160
Speaker 1: back to what your politics are. It's not that they

740
00:35:23,239 --> 00:35:25,959
Speaker 1: care that sports and politics mix, it's that if they don't,

741
00:35:26,120 --> 00:35:29,640
Speaker 1: if they don't agree with the issue, then it's a problem.

742
00:35:30,120 --> 00:35:33,080
Speaker 1: Because I wrote this when I was at ESPN, I

743
00:35:33,080 --> 00:35:34,600
Speaker 1: gave him a lot of credit for it because this

744
00:35:34,719 --> 00:35:37,880
Speaker 1: is a thorny issue to step into. But Tim Tebow

745
00:35:37,960 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: and his mother did a pro life ad during the

746
00:35:40,480 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: Super Bowl, and while yes, I'm pro choice, right, that's fine,

747
00:35:45,239 --> 00:35:47,239
Speaker 1: but I gave him a lot of credit for doing

748
00:35:47,320 --> 00:35:50,960
Speaker 1: that because that is an emotional issue and for him

749
00:35:51,000 --> 00:35:53,840
Speaker 1: to stick in him and his mama to get in

750
00:35:53,960 --> 00:35:56,320
Speaker 1: this issue, I was like, Hey, the same way I

751
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,480
Speaker 1: would applaud someone who was pro choice who did this,

752
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:01,160
Speaker 1: I'm a plat outing him for doing this. Yeah, I

753
00:36:01,160 --> 00:36:03,640
Speaker 1: don't agree, but like for an athlete to step out

754
00:36:03,680 --> 00:36:07,040
Speaker 1: there and put themselves out there in that way, that's something, right.

755
00:36:07,680 --> 00:36:09,680
Speaker 1: Colin got a lot of praise and all that, and

756
00:36:09,800 --> 00:36:12,920
Speaker 1: that's fine because people love Tim Tebow. But then when

757
00:36:12,960 --> 00:36:15,400
Speaker 1: you flip to say someone like Kyley Kaepernick, who is

758
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:18,160
Speaker 1: also standing up for what he believes in because of

759
00:36:19,160 --> 00:36:23,759
Speaker 1: this still debatable issue among people about how black people

760
00:36:23,800 --> 00:36:25,080
Speaker 1: should be treated by the police.

761
00:36:25,520 --> 00:36:27,360
Speaker 4: Then that's a different story. Then all of a sudden,

762
00:36:27,360 --> 00:36:28,120
Speaker 4: it's shut up.

763
00:36:28,280 --> 00:36:36,399
Speaker 2: Is like just plays never understood that. I've just never

764
00:36:36,520 --> 00:36:39,360
Speaker 2: understood that. I think the idea that people shut themselves

765
00:36:39,440 --> 00:36:41,800
Speaker 2: off to the rest of the world in politics because

766
00:36:41,800 --> 00:36:46,399
Speaker 2: they become a professional athlete or a professional singer. I mean, listen,

767
00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:52,080
Speaker 2: you can make smart and not smart business decisions involving politics, that's.

768
00:36:52,480 --> 00:36:52,759
Speaker 1: Up to you.

769
00:36:53,000 --> 00:36:57,560
Speaker 2: But the idea that someone should have no opinions about

770
00:36:57,760 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 2: the world they are, they are occupying, they are also citizens,

771
00:37:01,200 --> 00:37:02,400
Speaker 2: it just never made sense to me.

772
00:37:03,239 --> 00:37:06,080
Speaker 1: So I have a weekly podcast, cost Politics, right that

773
00:37:06,160 --> 00:37:07,720
Speaker 1: it is sports and politics, that's exact.

774
00:37:07,800 --> 00:37:09,400
Speaker 4: So we're you know, getting into the mix of it.

775
00:37:09,880 --> 00:37:13,279
Speaker 1: And as I was thinking about this podcast, you know,

776
00:37:13,360 --> 00:37:15,600
Speaker 1: I went back and looked at some history and it

777
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,000
Speaker 1: was pretty interesting because for a long time, a lot

778
00:37:19,080 --> 00:37:21,760
Speaker 1: of the you know, our first initial wave of presidents,

779
00:37:21,800 --> 00:37:25,759
Speaker 1: they used sports to connect with people. You know, it

780
00:37:25,880 --> 00:37:28,120
Speaker 1: was it was a pretty funny story I came across.

781
00:37:29,000 --> 00:37:31,120
Speaker 1: I think it was George Washington who used to get

782
00:37:31,160 --> 00:37:33,399
Speaker 1: people drunk and play games to get them to vote.

783
00:37:34,440 --> 00:37:38,879
Speaker 2: Right, And it seems not legal, but Okay, Now, back

784
00:37:38,920 --> 00:37:39,880
Speaker 2: then it was cool, like.

785
00:37:39,960 --> 00:37:45,560
Speaker 1: You did it. Andrew Jackson was very much into horse racing,

786
00:37:45,760 --> 00:37:47,920
Speaker 1: huge horse racing guy because he was a huge gambler,

787
00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:52,600
Speaker 1: kind of a degenerate, but I'm not judging. So, like,

788
00:37:52,760 --> 00:37:56,760
Speaker 1: there was this track where that presidents used sports to connect.

789
00:37:56,840 --> 00:37:59,960
Speaker 1: Presidents had sports interests themselves.

790
00:38:00,120 --> 00:38:01,960
Speaker 4: And you know they were chiming in.

791
00:38:02,280 --> 00:38:05,200
Speaker 1: Like the whole reason that there started to be this

792
00:38:05,320 --> 00:38:09,400
Speaker 1: conversation you know about safety in football.

793
00:38:09,719 --> 00:38:13,120
Speaker 4: It came from the White House, it came from politics, right,

794
00:38:13,840 --> 00:38:14,080
Speaker 4: And so.

795
00:38:14,280 --> 00:38:16,600
Speaker 1: I think it was Theodore Roosevelt because there was a

796
00:38:16,640 --> 00:38:20,120
Speaker 1: significant number of football players who were dying on the

797
00:38:20,200 --> 00:38:22,600
Speaker 1: field and he stepped in because his son started playing

798
00:38:22,600 --> 00:38:25,719
Speaker 1: football and said, no, no, we need to have a

799
00:38:25,840 --> 00:38:27,720
Speaker 1: conversation about safety.

800
00:38:27,880 --> 00:38:30,360
Speaker 4: Otherwise this I'm going to ban this sport.

801
00:38:30,680 --> 00:38:34,440
Speaker 1: Right, There's always been this collision. Yeah, But what changed

802
00:38:34,480 --> 00:38:37,960
Speaker 1: how people felt about how athletes are able to speak

803
00:38:37,960 --> 00:38:40,640
Speaker 1: about it with the issues that impact them their community

804
00:38:41,280 --> 00:38:46,000
Speaker 1: is when black athletes started using their sports platform to

805
00:38:46,200 --> 00:38:48,880
Speaker 1: talk about the conditions and their community to talk about

806
00:38:48,960 --> 00:38:50,040
Speaker 1: their treatment in America.

807
00:38:50,560 --> 00:38:52,560
Speaker 4: Right then shut up in driple came.

808
00:38:53,080 --> 00:38:56,839
Speaker 1: Then they wanted athletes to be quiet and so I'm

809
00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:00,960
Speaker 1: just watching this wave of that very much depends on

810
00:39:01,080 --> 00:39:04,080
Speaker 1: who's saying it, what they stand for, and whether or

811
00:39:04,080 --> 00:39:08,360
Speaker 1: not people agree, agree, but this whole entire idea. So

812
00:39:08,440 --> 00:39:10,000
Speaker 1: when you asked me about, like, when did you become

813
00:39:10,040 --> 00:39:13,600
Speaker 1: involved in politics, It's like at ESPN, I generally only

814
00:39:13,640 --> 00:39:17,239
Speaker 1: talked about it when it intersected with sports. And the

815
00:39:17,360 --> 00:39:20,920
Speaker 1: other thing is ESPN had very specific policies about not

816
00:39:21,080 --> 00:39:25,800
Speaker 1: talking about politics on social media. Now, obviously I violated

817
00:39:26,040 --> 00:39:31,440
Speaker 1: one of those. Okay, obviously I did, right, And because

818
00:39:31,440 --> 00:39:35,120
Speaker 1: there was a lot going on in this country, I

819
00:39:35,480 --> 00:39:41,319
Speaker 1: was a little agitated and a little human and I'm

820
00:39:41,400 --> 00:39:42,879
Speaker 1: just like, hey man, I don't feel like talking about

821
00:39:42,880 --> 00:39:45,120
Speaker 1: who going in the afcast, So let me say this

822
00:39:45,360 --> 00:39:48,200
Speaker 1: on Twitter. As I have to tell people, I did

823
00:39:48,280 --> 00:39:50,360
Speaker 1: not open up sports centers saying Donald Trump is a

824
00:39:50,360 --> 00:39:53,400
Speaker 1: white of purposes. I did not do that, Okay. So

825
00:39:53,680 --> 00:39:57,360
Speaker 1: it wasn't that I necessarily went out with this purposeful

826
00:39:57,400 --> 00:39:59,960
Speaker 1: plan to start talking about politics. It's like the politics

827
00:40:00,120 --> 00:40:03,920
Speaker 1: found me because I live here and it found me,

828
00:40:04,320 --> 00:40:06,320
Speaker 1: and the rest, as they say, is history.

829
00:40:18,560 --> 00:40:20,920
Speaker 3: How like, how much.

830
00:40:22,280 --> 00:40:27,520
Speaker 2: Backlash do you get when you talk about politics from

831
00:40:27,600 --> 00:40:32,440
Speaker 2: the sports community, versus from people in politics.

832
00:40:34,719 --> 00:40:37,719
Speaker 1: That is a great question, and I'm so glad you

833
00:40:37,840 --> 00:40:40,400
Speaker 1: asked me this, because the majority of the backlash that

834
00:40:40,480 --> 00:40:44,640
Speaker 1: I get is not from the political circles, because I

835
00:40:44,719 --> 00:40:47,600
Speaker 1: think there's a certain amount of discourse that you're used

836
00:40:47,640 --> 00:40:48,680
Speaker 1: to in politics.

837
00:40:48,760 --> 00:40:49,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, right.

838
00:40:49,440 --> 00:40:54,440
Speaker 1: If I if I have a position in the political sphere,

839
00:40:54,640 --> 00:40:56,480
Speaker 1: the people that disagree with me or whatever, they're just

840
00:40:56,600 --> 00:40:59,200
Speaker 1: like it's just because of the politics, Like I don't

841
00:40:59,239 --> 00:41:00,440
Speaker 1: agree with you because you said.

842
00:41:00,280 --> 00:41:02,320
Speaker 3: This, and you're not the only one talking about it

843
00:41:02,480 --> 00:41:03,000
Speaker 3: or saying no.

844
00:41:03,200 --> 00:41:04,120
Speaker 4: I'm not right.

845
00:41:04,200 --> 00:41:07,600
Speaker 1: And so as I've often said this about what I

846
00:41:07,640 --> 00:41:10,120
Speaker 1: said about you know, Donald Trump, that sort of you know,

847
00:41:10,239 --> 00:41:11,520
Speaker 1: got me in trouble. It's like it's one of the

848
00:41:11,560 --> 00:41:13,879
Speaker 1: most unoriginal things I ever said. I wasn't the only

849
00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:18,399
Speaker 1: person saying that, right, But because it's the sports center

850
00:41:18,480 --> 00:41:21,600
Speaker 1: acre who says it, yep, then that's what made it

851
00:41:21,960 --> 00:41:24,239
Speaker 1: register differently and resonate differently.

852
00:41:24,000 --> 00:41:24,600
Speaker 4: With some people.

853
00:41:25,040 --> 00:41:27,359
Speaker 1: So a lot of the flack that I get that's

854
00:41:27,400 --> 00:41:30,560
Speaker 1: a little bit more mean spirited is from sports fans

855
00:41:30,600 --> 00:41:33,160
Speaker 1: who feel like I have no right or place to

856
00:41:33,400 --> 00:41:37,600
Speaker 1: say these things, and especially when it comes to pointing

857
00:41:37,640 --> 00:41:41,680
Speaker 1: out certain political aspects of sports that are happening like.

858
00:41:41,719 --> 00:41:42,680
Speaker 4: I can't imagine.

859
00:41:42,960 --> 00:41:47,320
Speaker 1: Like on the current episode of Politics, my guest is

860
00:41:47,800 --> 00:41:52,160
Speaker 1: an athlete named Leja Clarendon, who who was the WNBA's

861
00:41:52,200 --> 00:41:54,839
Speaker 1: first trans and non binary player. A lot of people

862
00:41:54,880 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 1: to know this, she just retired. She played in the

863
00:41:58,120 --> 00:42:00,399
Speaker 1: league for twelve years, and so not only just talking

864
00:42:00,400 --> 00:42:02,800
Speaker 1: to her, and I know there's this evolving conversation, constant

865
00:42:02,840 --> 00:42:06,040
Speaker 1: conversation about where trans people belong in sports, and I

866
00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,800
Speaker 1: know people feel very emotionally about that. But I also

867
00:42:09,080 --> 00:42:12,440
Speaker 1: in this same episode, I have a whole commentary about

868
00:42:12,520 --> 00:42:17,239
Speaker 1: FIFA because they chose, you know, the Club World Cup

869
00:42:17,320 --> 00:42:20,120
Speaker 1: is going on right now in America, and they chose

870
00:42:20,320 --> 00:42:25,600
Speaker 1: to not play any of their anti racism ads slogans.

871
00:42:26,120 --> 00:42:30,080
Speaker 1: They're not allowing the captains to where some of like

872
00:42:30,160 --> 00:42:32,520
Speaker 1: they had like a bunch of unity different unity sayings

873
00:42:32,520 --> 00:42:35,800
Speaker 1: they had on their like you know, unite against you know,

874
00:42:36,000 --> 00:42:41,000
Speaker 1: gender disparities like this regular regular like the n racism slogan.

875
00:42:41,320 --> 00:42:45,080
Speaker 4: Yeah I was in the NFL, right, but FIFA.

876
00:42:44,840 --> 00:42:48,360
Speaker 1: Decided not to do it. And then you and this

877
00:42:48,520 --> 00:42:51,120
Speaker 1: is the same feace for President who just two years

878
00:42:51,120 --> 00:42:54,279
Speaker 1: ago was asking the world leaders to join them in

879
00:42:54,320 --> 00:42:56,480
Speaker 1: a fight against racism, because that's something that they've had

880
00:42:56,520 --> 00:42:59,359
Speaker 1: a real problem with in Fibia in terms of how

881
00:42:59,440 --> 00:43:01,840
Speaker 1: the fans, what they say, the slurs they use, their

882
00:43:02,440 --> 00:43:04,560
Speaker 1: how they treat be like like it's been a real issue.

883
00:43:05,320 --> 00:43:07,400
Speaker 1: So why did they stop it when they came to America?

884
00:43:07,800 --> 00:43:10,719
Speaker 4: Cut to the FIFA president being at Donald Trump's.

885
00:43:10,400 --> 00:43:13,800
Speaker 3: Office, You're why, you know why they did it?

886
00:43:13,960 --> 00:43:17,920
Speaker 1: Right? So, but these are the things that sports fans

887
00:43:18,320 --> 00:43:21,840
Speaker 1: they sometimes don't like to recognize some sports fans, and

888
00:43:21,960 --> 00:43:24,320
Speaker 1: I get it, like they look at sports as entertainment.

889
00:43:24,400 --> 00:43:27,919
Speaker 4: They look at this as the escape. And I hate

890
00:43:27,960 --> 00:43:29,160
Speaker 4: to be the one to be to.

891
00:43:29,239 --> 00:43:31,560
Speaker 1: Be the Debbie Downer that tells them, like sports is

892
00:43:31,600 --> 00:43:34,920
Speaker 1: not happening in some separate universe that is inoculated from

893
00:43:34,960 --> 00:43:35,399
Speaker 1: all these.

894
00:43:35,320 --> 00:43:37,440
Speaker 4: Other problems like right showing up in sports.

895
00:43:37,800 --> 00:43:39,800
Speaker 1: What do you think is? I mean, the United States

896
00:43:39,840 --> 00:43:42,680
Speaker 1: over the next five years has some very big international

897
00:43:42,719 --> 00:43:45,200
Speaker 1: sporting events taking place here at a time where you

898
00:43:45,280 --> 00:43:48,279
Speaker 1: got ice kidnapping people, So like, what's you think? I mean,

899
00:43:48,680 --> 00:43:50,480
Speaker 1: this is a conversation we're gonna have to have. You

900
00:43:50,560 --> 00:43:53,200
Speaker 1: got travel bands in place of countries that are represented

901
00:43:53,280 --> 00:43:54,719
Speaker 1: by these athletes that are coming here.

902
00:43:55,080 --> 00:43:58,920
Speaker 2: You can pretend sports is walled off and this sacred

903
00:43:59,040 --> 00:44:01,879
Speaker 2: space where you know you can escape into.

904
00:44:02,080 --> 00:44:04,239
Speaker 3: But that's not reality, that's not.

905
00:44:04,320 --> 00:44:08,240
Speaker 1: Reality true, And so I find that the sports people

906
00:44:08,600 --> 00:44:12,640
Speaker 1: are much more hesitant. I get these conversations, and especially

907
00:44:12,960 --> 00:44:15,840
Speaker 1: you know, coming from a black woman, right, Yeah, but

908
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:20,040
Speaker 1: you know, depending on what you're talking about, like they're they're.

909
00:44:19,960 --> 00:44:24,479
Speaker 5: Fine if some of their favorite very right wing people

910
00:44:24,680 --> 00:44:28,279
Speaker 5: talk about sports in a certain manner that is more

911
00:44:28,400 --> 00:44:30,080
Speaker 5: befitting of their politics, and.

912
00:44:30,160 --> 00:44:33,759
Speaker 3: If they'rely fine, it is the same. And with Hollywood.

913
00:44:33,960 --> 00:44:38,520
Speaker 2: You know, I'm center right, no longer a Republican but

914
00:44:38,960 --> 00:44:42,320
Speaker 2: a conservative and coming up in the party. You know,

915
00:44:42,719 --> 00:44:47,680
Speaker 2: conservatives Republicans would shit on Hollywood, right, these out of

916
00:44:47,760 --> 00:44:50,320
Speaker 2: touch celebrities, they have no idea what they're talking about.

917
00:44:50,880 --> 00:44:52,640
Speaker 3: Stop talking about politics.

918
00:44:52,719 --> 00:44:55,799
Speaker 2: You guys sound like idiots and your liberalism and your

919
00:44:55,880 --> 00:45:01,960
Speaker 2: leftism until until some act comes out for Republicans. Then

920
00:45:02,120 --> 00:45:03,680
Speaker 2: it's come to the convention.

921
00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:07,040
Speaker 1: And be there to pick up. Right.

922
00:45:07,239 --> 00:45:09,640
Speaker 2: Then then suddenly we love you Clint Eastwood. Then we

923
00:45:09,760 --> 00:45:13,200
Speaker 2: love you Ted Nugent, we love you Kid Rock. I mean,

924
00:45:13,719 --> 00:45:16,759
Speaker 2: you know, they were fine with celebrities, as long as

925
00:45:16,840 --> 00:45:20,120
Speaker 2: they were saying the right things. It was so hypocritical

926
00:45:20,160 --> 00:45:23,000
Speaker 2: and I never understood how they could talk out of

927
00:45:23,040 --> 00:45:26,040
Speaker 2: two sides of their mouth. Hollywood stupid and no one

928
00:45:26,040 --> 00:45:29,040
Speaker 2: should care what they have to say unless it's Kid Rock.

929
00:45:29,320 --> 00:45:33,560
Speaker 1: I mean, come on, it makes me embarrassed to be

930
00:45:33,680 --> 00:45:39,080
Speaker 1: from Michigan. I'd tell you, but yes, no, you're But

931
00:45:39,160 --> 00:45:41,240
Speaker 1: that's the way it works. I mean, it's a degree,

932
00:45:41,360 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 1: that's a game, but it's a double standard, and it's

933
00:45:44,200 --> 00:45:46,319
Speaker 1: a game that at various points both sides have played

934
00:45:46,320 --> 00:45:48,879
Speaker 1: this game right where it's just like, listen, we're either

935
00:45:48,920 --> 00:45:51,239
Speaker 1: going to be the marketplace ideas or not. And I

936
00:45:51,280 --> 00:45:54,520
Speaker 1: always say this period when it comes to athletes, even

937
00:45:54,560 --> 00:45:57,840
Speaker 1: if there's athletes who I have, I am completely politically

938
00:45:57,880 --> 00:45:59,600
Speaker 1: opposite of. They have a right to say what they're

939
00:45:59,600 --> 00:46:02,239
Speaker 1: gonna say, right, I do have the right to criticize

940
00:46:02,320 --> 00:46:04,399
Speaker 1: what they say. But the one word that you're never

941
00:46:04,480 --> 00:46:06,319
Speaker 1: going to hear me say is they need to shut up.

942
00:46:06,640 --> 00:46:09,360
Speaker 1: What I'm going to do is attack what they have said,

943
00:46:09,880 --> 00:46:11,480
Speaker 1: but I'm not going to tell them to stop talk.

944
00:46:11,640 --> 00:46:14,879
Speaker 2: I don't know a journalist, a good journalist, who would

945
00:46:14,880 --> 00:46:15,719
Speaker 2: ever say shut up.

946
00:46:16,000 --> 00:46:17,000
Speaker 3: It's always tell me more.

947
00:46:17,880 --> 00:46:19,799
Speaker 1: Yes, it is like why do you feel that way?

948
00:46:21,440 --> 00:46:25,520
Speaker 3: Never stop talking? Okay, all right, one more question before

949
00:46:25,520 --> 00:46:26,520
Speaker 3: we get to a lightning round.

950
00:46:27,239 --> 00:46:28,799
Speaker 4: Ooh, I love a lightning round.

951
00:46:28,840 --> 00:46:30,640
Speaker 3: So do I, so do I. Sometimes it's funny.

952
00:46:30,680 --> 00:46:32,320
Speaker 2: Sometimes I'll mention a lightning round on this and a

953
00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:34,360
Speaker 2: celebrity will go, oh, I hate these, and.

954
00:46:34,400 --> 00:46:36,840
Speaker 3: I'm like, this is the funnest, easiest part.

955
00:46:36,680 --> 00:46:38,840
Speaker 1: Of the whole. Yeah. Anyway, the best part of the

956
00:46:38,920 --> 00:46:42,040
Speaker 1: lightning round is like, that's where the real controversy happens.

957
00:46:42,280 --> 00:46:46,520
Speaker 3: Jamel, You're so correct, it feels like low stakes.

958
00:46:46,560 --> 00:46:49,000
Speaker 2: And then suddenly you're in the most interesting part of

959
00:46:49,080 --> 00:46:50,560
Speaker 2: the Podcaes you name.

960
00:46:50,480 --> 00:46:52,920
Speaker 1: The wrong show that's the best sitcom of all time,

961
00:46:53,400 --> 00:46:55,120
Speaker 1: and suddenly you're in trouble.

962
00:46:55,320 --> 00:46:57,680
Speaker 4: You're correct, I'm prepared help.

963
00:46:58,040 --> 00:47:00,719
Speaker 2: But before we get there, I just want to bring

964
00:47:00,840 --> 00:47:03,759
Speaker 2: up sort of the organizing purpose of this podcast, which

965
00:47:03,800 --> 00:47:07,480
Speaker 2: is to talk about mental health, not insofar as like

966
00:47:07,640 --> 00:47:09,680
Speaker 2: it's a mental health podcast, but I like to create

967
00:47:09,719 --> 00:47:12,160
Speaker 2: a space where mental health can come up as we

968
00:47:12,239 --> 00:47:14,680
Speaker 2: talk about the challenges of our jobs, our lives, etc.

969
00:47:15,560 --> 00:47:17,279
Speaker 2: And I talk about a lot because I struggle with

970
00:47:17,360 --> 00:47:20,320
Speaker 2: anxiety and so it's important to me. A bunch of athletes,

971
00:47:21,160 --> 00:47:25,160
Speaker 2: Naomi Osaka, who I've interviewed about her anxiety, Simone Biles,

972
00:47:25,239 --> 00:47:29,959
Speaker 2: Michael Phelps, Jalen Rose have opened up about their mental health.

973
00:47:30,080 --> 00:47:32,279
Speaker 3: And I know you do a lot with Charlemagne and

974
00:47:32,680 --> 00:47:33,600
Speaker 3: he talks about it too.

975
00:47:34,360 --> 00:47:36,080
Speaker 2: How important do you think it is for people of

976
00:47:36,560 --> 00:47:40,680
Speaker 2: their stature in sports to publicly talk about their mental

977
00:47:40,719 --> 00:47:41,480
Speaker 2: health struggles.

978
00:47:41,920 --> 00:47:45,560
Speaker 1: Well, it is very much one of those changes in

979
00:47:45,680 --> 00:47:49,759
Speaker 1: sports that I've found to be really comforting and really dynamic,

980
00:47:50,040 --> 00:47:53,000
Speaker 1: because when I was first coming up as a sports reporter,

981
00:47:53,040 --> 00:47:55,040
Speaker 1: and really even to the midway point in my career,

982
00:47:55,200 --> 00:47:57,959
Speaker 1: athletes never talked about mental health.

983
00:47:58,440 --> 00:48:02,400
Speaker 4: They certainly they kind of went along.

984
00:48:02,200 --> 00:48:05,719
Speaker 1: With this idea that they are basically made a vibranium

985
00:48:05,960 --> 00:48:09,719
Speaker 1: physically and mental. You know that nothing gets to them,

986
00:48:09,840 --> 00:48:13,640
Speaker 1: that nothing affects them, even though in covering them you

987
00:48:13,680 --> 00:48:15,719
Speaker 1: could see that that was not true, that there was

988
00:48:15,840 --> 00:48:19,200
Speaker 1: clearly a lot of issues they were struggling with. I'm

989
00:48:19,239 --> 00:48:23,479
Speaker 1: really especially happy that a significant number of the people

990
00:48:23,600 --> 00:48:26,239
Speaker 1: leading this conversation are people of color, are black people,

991
00:48:26,400 --> 00:48:30,719
Speaker 1: because the mental health conversation in our community has been

992
00:48:30,840 --> 00:48:34,400
Speaker 1: one that has needed to evolve and the fact that

993
00:48:34,480 --> 00:48:37,359
Speaker 1: we're using different language around things, and even I could

994
00:48:37,360 --> 00:48:41,040
Speaker 1: see its showing up in the commentary where, you know,

995
00:48:41,200 --> 00:48:44,000
Speaker 1: and it's something that I have to evolved in. Two, Like,

996
00:48:44,640 --> 00:48:51,040
Speaker 1: I've definitely stopped calling players soft. Like from number one,

997
00:48:51,480 --> 00:48:55,040
Speaker 1: I just stated back and thought about it is I

998
00:48:55,120 --> 00:48:56,719
Speaker 1: can't do what they do, like for me to call

999
00:48:56,760 --> 00:48:59,839
Speaker 1: themselves because even even if by some definition in their

1000
00:49:00,040 --> 00:49:02,680
Speaker 1: feel they are considered soft, they way tougher than I am.

1001
00:49:02,920 --> 00:49:04,719
Speaker 3: So I'm like call them solf, you know.

1002
00:49:05,360 --> 00:49:10,960
Speaker 1: And so I think that like how we question and

1003
00:49:11,120 --> 00:49:13,920
Speaker 1: athletes mental capabilities and something as sports writers, that we

1004
00:49:14,000 --> 00:49:16,759
Speaker 1: need to develop different language around. And I've seen that,

1005
00:49:17,480 --> 00:49:20,759
Speaker 1: you know now, especially when an athlete discloses that they're

1006
00:49:21,400 --> 00:49:23,680
Speaker 1: struggling with mental health, like there's much more care and

1007
00:49:23,760 --> 00:49:28,120
Speaker 1: consideration for that. So I'm really proud that these athletes

1008
00:49:28,239 --> 00:49:29,239
Speaker 1: have been able to.

1009
00:49:29,280 --> 00:49:30,359
Speaker 4: Be vulnerable in this way.

1010
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:33,120
Speaker 1: Listen, I didn't go to therapy till I was in

1011
00:49:33,160 --> 00:49:36,120
Speaker 1: my forties, okay, until I was in my mid forties,

1012
00:49:36,200 --> 00:49:39,759
Speaker 1: and so it was really helpful and beneficial for me.

1013
00:49:40,400 --> 00:49:43,399
Speaker 1: In fact, I think I opened my memoir talking about

1014
00:49:43,400 --> 00:49:46,480
Speaker 1: the whole reason I went was because my mother told

1015
00:49:46,520 --> 00:49:48,279
Speaker 1: me I needed therapy, and I wanted to prove her

1016
00:49:48,320 --> 00:49:50,759
Speaker 1: wrong by going to a therapist who I assume would

1017
00:49:50,760 --> 00:49:53,880
Speaker 1: be like you all right, yeah, go ahead, like it's

1018
00:49:53,920 --> 00:49:56,359
Speaker 1: a check up. Yeah yeah, yeah, like your mom's wrong.

1019
00:49:56,480 --> 00:50:02,759
Speaker 1: I was like yeah, whatever. And while and while, you know,

1020
00:50:02,880 --> 00:50:05,480
Speaker 1: I sort of went into it trying to prove against

1021
00:50:05,600 --> 00:50:09,520
Speaker 1: a attention, I found it to be beneficial and really

1022
00:50:09,840 --> 00:50:12,480
Speaker 1: helpful and and it helped me to centralize my thoughts.

1023
00:50:13,160 --> 00:50:15,960
Speaker 1: And it's cool that you talked about your anxiety because

1024
00:50:16,080 --> 00:50:18,000
Speaker 1: I don't know if this is just the product of age,

1025
00:50:18,120 --> 00:50:21,440
Speaker 1: but as I got older, I got more anxious, Like

1026
00:50:21,520 --> 00:50:24,200
Speaker 1: I wasn't that way before twenty years ago. Yeah, I

1027
00:50:24,280 --> 00:50:26,400
Speaker 1: don't know if it's just you're just more aware, or

1028
00:50:26,440 --> 00:50:29,680
Speaker 1: if it's just the pressures of this world or just

1029
00:50:30,280 --> 00:50:32,840
Speaker 1: where your career is, like all of those things, Like

1030
00:50:33,560 --> 00:50:36,600
Speaker 1: at nights, all aware, it's like my brain it's yeah,

1031
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:38,040
Speaker 1: it's yeah, you're right, it's all of it.

1032
00:50:38,120 --> 00:50:39,160
Speaker 3: It's all those things.

1033
00:50:39,320 --> 00:50:42,719
Speaker 2: It's our jobs, all those certain age, it's all the fame.

1034
00:50:42,840 --> 00:50:44,600
Speaker 4: Yeah, it's all that.

1035
00:50:44,719 --> 00:50:48,200
Speaker 1: Because some nights I'm like, my mind will not shut

1036
00:50:48,320 --> 00:50:52,560
Speaker 1: off saying and it's it could be brutal, It can

1037
00:50:52,680 --> 00:50:56,359
Speaker 1: really be brutal. So understanding that there are other people

1038
00:50:56,440 --> 00:50:58,719
Speaker 1: going through it, understanding the language around it and what

1039
00:50:58,800 --> 00:51:02,000
Speaker 1: I'm experiencing how to express that has been beneficials But

1040
00:51:02,080 --> 00:51:05,839
Speaker 1: I'm beneficial. But I'm glad that athletes in particular are

1041
00:51:06,040 --> 00:51:09,560
Speaker 1: leading the way because it's encouraging everybody else. I think

1042
00:51:09,600 --> 00:51:12,040
Speaker 1: to take a deeper look at how they talk about

1043
00:51:12,080 --> 00:51:13,920
Speaker 1: mental health and frankly, what their all mental health is.

1044
00:51:14,200 --> 00:51:17,080
Speaker 2: I've never thought about it from that perspective of as

1045
00:51:17,160 --> 00:51:22,760
Speaker 2: the sports writer. How it's made journalists talk differently about athletes.

1046
00:51:22,800 --> 00:51:23,680
Speaker 3: That's really interesting.

1047
00:51:24,280 --> 00:51:27,920
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, And I say this too, like anytime

1048
00:51:28,080 --> 00:51:31,080
Speaker 2: a man of a certain generation comes out to talk

1049
00:51:31,080 --> 00:51:34,600
Speaker 2: about mental health, that's so so good, and especially a

1050
00:51:34,719 --> 00:51:38,000
Speaker 2: person of color, because the barriers in those communities to

1051
00:51:38,160 --> 00:51:39,759
Speaker 2: getting mental health help or higher.

1052
00:51:40,320 --> 00:51:43,239
Speaker 3: There are just more obstacles. Structurally, there are more obstacles,

1053
00:51:43,280 --> 00:51:44,080
Speaker 3: there's more stigma.

1054
00:51:44,680 --> 00:51:49,240
Speaker 2: So when a Jalen Rose or when a Charlemagne talks openly, nakedly,

1055
00:51:49,360 --> 00:51:53,640
Speaker 2: rawly about their mental health, I hear I hear doors opening.

1056
00:51:54,320 --> 00:51:56,799
Speaker 3: You know, I just know the ripple effect it's going

1057
00:51:56,880 --> 00:51:57,000
Speaker 3: to have.

1058
00:51:57,280 --> 00:51:59,640
Speaker 4: Yeah, and I think it's important because they're black men

1059
00:51:59,719 --> 00:51:59,960
Speaker 4: doing it.

1060
00:52:00,480 --> 00:52:03,399
Speaker 1: Because when you look at where suicide and depression rates

1061
00:52:03,440 --> 00:52:07,800
Speaker 1: have escalated, it's among that group, and a lot of

1062
00:52:07,880 --> 00:52:10,279
Speaker 1: it has been you know, And I would say this

1063
00:52:10,440 --> 00:52:12,400
Speaker 1: doesn't just impact black men, but I would say men

1064
00:52:12,480 --> 00:52:14,920
Speaker 1: in general. As you know, men have been conditioned to

1065
00:52:14,960 --> 00:52:17,680
Speaker 1: suppress their feelings, to just get it done and to

1066
00:52:17,840 --> 00:52:21,000
Speaker 1: just overlook trauma and just to keep going. And not

1067
00:52:21,120 --> 00:52:23,160
Speaker 1: that women aren't encouraged in the same way, but like

1068
00:52:23,360 --> 00:52:26,200
Speaker 1: there is a bit more acceptance when we decide to

1069
00:52:26,239 --> 00:52:28,400
Speaker 1: be vulnerable, and there are not a lot of spaces

1070
00:52:28,520 --> 00:52:31,200
Speaker 1: for them to do that, and so it's been changing.

1071
00:52:31,400 --> 00:52:32,360
Speaker 3: I feel it changing.

1072
00:52:33,040 --> 00:52:33,279
Speaker 5: It is.

1073
00:52:33,400 --> 00:52:35,279
Speaker 1: I feel like it has definitely changed. Like I think

1074
00:52:35,800 --> 00:52:38,759
Speaker 1: the generation of men after them are much more in

1075
00:52:38,880 --> 00:52:39,839
Speaker 1: tune with this issue.

1076
00:52:39,880 --> 00:52:42,800
Speaker 4: I think maybe their generation was. I think you're right positive.

1077
00:52:43,520 --> 00:52:46,120
Speaker 3: Well, thank you for talking about it with me. I

1078
00:52:46,200 --> 00:52:49,239
Speaker 3: appreciate that. And as promised, let's get to a lightning round.

1079
00:52:55,120 --> 00:52:59,239
Speaker 2: Okay, you're walking into, as you know, the most controversial

1080
00:52:59,280 --> 00:52:59,920
Speaker 2: part of the podcast.

1081
00:53:00,160 --> 00:53:04,439
Speaker 3: I do favorite musical artists or band and then.

1082
00:53:04,400 --> 00:53:10,200
Speaker 1: Of course you come right off the top rope with this. Okay,

1083
00:53:11,440 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 1: so I'm gonna say my favorite band is The Roots.

1084
00:53:16,920 --> 00:53:19,520
Speaker 1: The people don't realize The Roots are band. Yes they

1085
00:53:19,520 --> 00:53:21,680
Speaker 1: are a rap root, but they are a band, Okay

1086
00:53:22,080 --> 00:53:24,120
Speaker 1: they are. That's why they down fallon because they're a band.

1087
00:53:24,280 --> 00:53:27,440
Speaker 4: Yeah right, I'm gonna say it's a route all right.

1088
00:53:27,880 --> 00:53:34,160
Speaker 1: Favorite musical artists I'm gonna say, And this is tough. God,

1089
00:53:34,200 --> 00:53:36,680
Speaker 1: people in Detroit are never gonna forgive me because I

1090
00:53:37,080 --> 00:53:41,560
Speaker 1: immediately went to Aretha Franklin and in fact, you can't

1091
00:53:41,560 --> 00:53:43,200
Speaker 1: see it, but I'm wearing her T shirt right now, right,

1092
00:53:43,280 --> 00:53:45,520
Speaker 1: I can say the Franklin T shirt on her. Yes,

1093
00:53:45,680 --> 00:53:48,800
Speaker 1: I love her. But I'm gonna say in terms of

1094
00:53:48,880 --> 00:53:50,759
Speaker 1: soundtracks to my life, it's gonna be Mary J.

1095
00:53:50,880 --> 00:53:51,240
Speaker 4: Blige.

1096
00:53:52,680 --> 00:53:53,439
Speaker 1: It's so good.

1097
00:53:54,120 --> 00:53:54,880
Speaker 4: I love Mary.

1098
00:53:55,000 --> 00:53:57,640
Speaker 1: I was like, Mary speaks to my soul. Oh all

1099
00:53:57,719 --> 00:54:00,760
Speaker 1: the heartbreak I went through the in the y mid nineties,

1100
00:54:00,840 --> 00:54:02,720
Speaker 1: I was like, Mary was there for every moment.

1101
00:54:04,000 --> 00:54:05,360
Speaker 3: And I love that she's gotting.

1102
00:54:05,680 --> 00:54:08,440
Speaker 2: You know that she's getting her flowers as an actress

1103
00:54:08,719 --> 00:54:11,839
Speaker 2: and she was doing so much. Yeah, okay, good, good

1104
00:54:12,040 --> 00:54:16,360
Speaker 2: approve favorite movie about sports? What is the best movie

1105
00:54:16,560 --> 00:54:17,360
Speaker 2: about sports?

1106
00:54:18,760 --> 00:54:19,080
Speaker 1: Okay?

1107
00:54:19,560 --> 00:54:23,360
Speaker 4: And it's key that you said movie and not documentary, correct,

1108
00:54:23,680 --> 00:54:26,719
Speaker 4: because that those those are two different categories.

1109
00:54:26,840 --> 00:54:34,080
Speaker 1: Yes, I'm gonna say, I'm gonna what is the movie

1110
00:54:34,120 --> 00:54:36,360
Speaker 1: that I will watch over and over and over again.

1111
00:54:38,480 --> 00:54:43,520
Speaker 4: I'm gonna go with Remember the Titans, good one. Remember

1112
00:54:43,560 --> 00:54:45,960
Speaker 4: the Titans. It's a really good one.

1113
00:54:46,000 --> 00:54:47,080
Speaker 1: And I know a lot of people.

1114
00:54:47,120 --> 00:54:47,880
Speaker 4: Will say Rudy.

1115
00:54:48,120 --> 00:54:53,560
Speaker 1: I gotta be honest, I didn't love Rudy. I mean

1116
00:54:53,600 --> 00:54:57,040
Speaker 1: it's a cool story, like shout out to Rudy and everything,

1117
00:54:57,640 --> 00:55:01,839
Speaker 1: but my hatred of Notre Tame it runs so deep

1118
00:55:01,880 --> 00:55:04,399
Speaker 1: I can't even see the beauty of it. Right, Okay, Yes,

1119
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:07,360
Speaker 1: I went to Michigan State and growing up like I

1120
00:55:07,440 --> 00:55:09,000
Speaker 1: was a Michigan fan actually growing up.

1121
00:55:09,000 --> 00:55:10,600
Speaker 4: And like the way we hateed Notre Dame.

1122
00:55:10,680 --> 00:55:11,320
Speaker 1: Are you kidding me?

1123
00:55:11,320 --> 00:55:11,560
Speaker 4: Okay?

1124
00:55:12,600 --> 00:55:13,520
Speaker 1: Some things never leave you.

1125
00:55:14,200 --> 00:55:16,160
Speaker 3: Okay, something you've.

1126
00:55:16,120 --> 00:55:21,919
Speaker 1: Not yet achieved but want to, Well, I will say,

1127
00:55:22,000 --> 00:55:26,360
Speaker 1: I want to write a best selling fiction, novel fiction.

1128
00:55:26,520 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: I want to be on that New York Times best

1129
00:55:29,040 --> 00:55:32,320
Speaker 1: bestseller list. Yeah, I didn't with my memoir.

1130
00:55:32,440 --> 00:55:32,759
Speaker 3: I want.

1131
00:55:33,280 --> 00:55:35,200
Speaker 1: I do have a story in mind that I'm sort

1132
00:55:35,239 --> 00:55:37,880
Speaker 1: of tinkering with and been tickering with it like it's

1133
00:55:37,920 --> 00:55:39,160
Speaker 1: one of those I got to shit to get off

1134
00:55:39,160 --> 00:55:39,399
Speaker 1: the pot.

1135
00:55:39,480 --> 00:55:40,600
Speaker 4: With it, you know, I really do.

1136
00:55:40,840 --> 00:55:45,560
Speaker 1: And so I recently took an advanced storytelling course to

1137
00:55:45,640 --> 00:55:48,160
Speaker 1: try to get you know, to try to get things going.

1138
00:55:48,239 --> 00:55:50,880
Speaker 1: But like, I want to write a best selling a

1139
00:55:50,960 --> 00:55:52,799
Speaker 1: New York Times best selling fiction.

1140
00:55:53,120 --> 00:55:54,600
Speaker 3: And you know what you will.

1141
00:55:56,360 --> 00:56:00,000
Speaker 4: Right now. You went out there in the university manifesting.

1142
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,759
Speaker 3: Right here off the cop what's the worst vacation you've

1143
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:03,400
Speaker 3: ever been on?

1144
00:56:06,800 --> 00:56:07,000
Speaker 5: You know?

1145
00:56:08,760 --> 00:56:11,439
Speaker 1: And this is only because I was broke. It really

1146
00:56:11,640 --> 00:56:13,279
Speaker 1: wasn't because of the company I was in.

1147
00:56:13,440 --> 00:56:16,759
Speaker 4: But my the first time I ever went out of

1148
00:56:16,800 --> 00:56:20,000
Speaker 4: the country was it was my junior year of college.

1149
00:56:20,160 --> 00:56:22,320
Speaker 4: Me and three other my girlfriends.

1150
00:56:22,400 --> 00:56:24,760
Speaker 1: We pulled together our money and we went to Canco

1151
00:56:25,600 --> 00:56:29,200
Speaker 1: and so we were staying in this horrific hotel.

1152
00:56:29,920 --> 00:56:32,520
Speaker 4: We had, you know, two queen beds, so we two

1153
00:56:32,640 --> 00:56:33,200
Speaker 4: to a bed.

1154
00:56:33,840 --> 00:56:38,160
Speaker 1: We had no money. I don't even know like how

1155
00:56:38,200 --> 00:56:40,759
Speaker 1: we scraped. Oh I know, I sold plasma in part

1156
00:56:40,840 --> 00:56:44,759
Speaker 1: to get money to be on this trip. That's a

1157
00:56:44,920 --> 00:56:48,920
Speaker 1: broke quick I show. Did I stayed selling some plasma college.

1158
00:56:48,960 --> 00:56:51,719
Speaker 1: I was like, man, it's a wonder that I get

1159
00:56:51,800 --> 00:56:52,280
Speaker 1: my veins.

1160
00:56:52,320 --> 00:56:55,680
Speaker 3: All right, you got margaritas with lasma money?

1161
00:56:57,760 --> 00:57:01,400
Speaker 1: I sure did. Went to Senor fraud, got into Tequila

1162
00:57:01,440 --> 00:57:04,120
Speaker 1: lib the Tequilakaga Libe, Senior frogs.

1163
00:57:04,200 --> 00:57:05,560
Speaker 4: We got so drug Oh my god.

1164
00:57:06,160 --> 00:57:07,480
Speaker 3: And while it was.

1165
00:57:07,840 --> 00:57:09,560
Speaker 4: Great to be out of the country and do all

1166
00:57:09,560 --> 00:57:12,239
Speaker 4: these things, it was just the poverty of it. As see,

1167
00:57:12,320 --> 00:57:13,120
Speaker 4: the poverty of it.

1168
00:57:13,239 --> 00:57:15,520
Speaker 3: It was like you're like, never again, never you know.

1169
00:57:15,520 --> 00:57:17,960
Speaker 4: What you're saying it never again.

1170
00:57:18,040 --> 00:57:20,400
Speaker 1: And that's probably why I probably go a little overboard

1171
00:57:20,480 --> 00:57:22,640
Speaker 1: now when it comes to vacations, because like I don't

1172
00:57:22,680 --> 00:57:26,440
Speaker 1: have you know, a lot of people they like clothes,

1173
00:57:26,520 --> 00:57:30,160
Speaker 1: they like bags, especially, you know, you know, the women

1174
00:57:30,280 --> 00:57:30,720
Speaker 1: like the shop.

1175
00:57:30,800 --> 00:57:31,560
Speaker 4: I hate shopping.

1176
00:57:31,960 --> 00:57:34,720
Speaker 1: But the one thing I'm gonna do is I'm going

1177
00:57:34,920 --> 00:57:37,880
Speaker 1: in when it comes to a vacation a thousand percent.

1178
00:57:38,040 --> 00:57:41,920
Speaker 2: Yep, Sam, Yeah, yeah, That's where I also like to

1179
00:57:41,960 --> 00:57:43,040
Speaker 2: get all my experiences.

1180
00:57:43,400 --> 00:57:46,439
Speaker 3: Speaking of what was it like being on below Deck?

1181
00:57:47,640 --> 00:57:48,920
Speaker 4: Below Deck was amazing.

1182
00:57:49,280 --> 00:57:52,960
Speaker 1: I did it twice. I did it once. My my girlfriends,

1183
00:57:53,360 --> 00:57:56,800
Speaker 1: my best friend from high school, she actually cold reached

1184
00:57:56,800 --> 00:58:01,160
Speaker 1: out to the below Deck casting director because on Facebook

1185
00:58:01,240 --> 00:58:03,560
Speaker 1: they actually advertised for like, hey, if you want to

1186
00:58:03,560 --> 00:58:06,440
Speaker 1: be on below Deck, and she reached out and it

1187
00:58:06,800 --> 00:58:09,840
Speaker 1: was a week before my birthday and she said, Hey,

1188
00:58:09,960 --> 00:58:12,280
Speaker 1: I need you to be by your phone at this

1189
00:58:12,440 --> 00:58:14,760
Speaker 1: particular time. Somebody's gonna call you. Oh and it was

1190
00:58:14,800 --> 00:58:17,920
Speaker 1: the below deck casting director, and so we talked about it.

1191
00:58:17,960 --> 00:58:20,520
Speaker 1: I was like, I was a huge still am a

1192
00:58:20,640 --> 00:58:23,520
Speaker 1: huge fan of the show. So Thailand was the first time.

1193
00:58:24,720 --> 00:58:27,040
Speaker 1: The second time, and this was during the thick of COVID,

1194
00:58:27,080 --> 00:58:31,160
Speaker 1: this is pre vaccinations. We went to Croatia and that

1195
00:58:31,280 --> 00:58:33,880
Speaker 1: was a couple's trip. So the one thing that is

1196
00:58:34,120 --> 00:58:38,680
Speaker 1: is true is like you don't notice the camera people

1197
00:58:38,800 --> 00:58:39,439
Speaker 1: after a while.

1198
00:58:39,760 --> 00:58:42,000
Speaker 4: I mean, one, they sat you up pretty good.

1199
00:58:42,160 --> 00:58:45,520
Speaker 1: I mean, the yacht is awesome. The yachta is insanely good.

1200
00:58:45,560 --> 00:58:47,440
Speaker 1: I had Captain Lee and I had Captain Sandy. Both

1201
00:58:47,480 --> 00:58:50,800
Speaker 1: of them were great. And you know, before you walk

1202
00:58:50,880 --> 00:58:53,240
Speaker 1: onto the boat, what happens is they're in a marina

1203
00:58:53,320 --> 00:58:55,320
Speaker 1: and there's usually a restaurant or a bar. So we

1204
00:58:55,400 --> 00:58:58,760
Speaker 1: were doing shots before we walked onto the right and

1205
00:58:58,880 --> 00:59:02,080
Speaker 1: so cause they get you tied up right, so when

1206
00:59:02,080 --> 00:59:05,560
Speaker 1: you get to that boat, you ain't feeling no pain, right, Yeah,

1207
00:59:07,640 --> 00:59:11,240
Speaker 1: a lot of liquor consumed. The best part about Croatia

1208
00:59:11,400 --> 00:59:12,840
Speaker 1: and why I think I'm gonna have to say that

1209
00:59:12,960 --> 00:59:16,600
Speaker 1: was My favorite one is because they picked Croatia because

1210
00:59:16,720 --> 00:59:19,040
Speaker 1: at that time the spread of COVID there was very low,

1211
00:59:19,680 --> 00:59:23,840
Speaker 1: and we had to quarantine in a house for seven

1212
00:59:23,920 --> 00:59:27,240
Speaker 1: days and we were tested multiple times, so we started

1213
00:59:27,280 --> 00:59:29,480
Speaker 1: jokingly calling at the Croatian trap house. It was. It

1214
00:59:29,520 --> 00:59:31,520
Speaker 1: was a lovely house, but there was the whole reason.

1215
00:59:32,960 --> 00:59:34,880
Speaker 1: We were like, no, this is where the reality show

1216
00:59:34,920 --> 00:59:38,040
Speaker 1: could be. It was during when so this is twenty twenty,

1217
00:59:38,120 --> 00:59:40,160
Speaker 1: so like the presidential debate happened during that time.

1218
00:59:40,160 --> 00:59:41,360
Speaker 4: We had to get up at like two am to

1219
00:59:41,440 --> 00:59:42,960
Speaker 4: watch it, so it was it was crazy.

1220
00:59:43,080 --> 00:59:45,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, but we had we blew through.

1221
00:59:45,760 --> 00:59:48,600
Speaker 4: Our liquor allotment it like two days and so we

1222
00:59:48,680 --> 00:59:49,000
Speaker 4: got them.

1223
00:59:50,320 --> 00:59:50,760
Speaker 3: We're in a.

1224
00:59:50,800 --> 00:59:53,040
Speaker 1: House all day, like we cannot leave, so what else

1225
00:59:53,040 --> 00:59:56,920
Speaker 1: we gonna do but get drunk, Like yeah, all we

1226
00:59:57,000 --> 00:59:59,200
Speaker 1: did was drinking play cards, like the whole time. We

1227
00:59:59,320 --> 01:00:01,000
Speaker 1: had such a black That was such a great and

1228
01:00:01,080 --> 01:00:05,520
Speaker 1: amazing trip. Yeah, so I'm just thankful in both cases

1229
01:00:06,080 --> 01:00:08,080
Speaker 1: they've asked us to be back on it repeatedly.

1230
01:00:08,520 --> 01:00:10,160
Speaker 4: We just haven't had the time. And just getting a

1231
01:00:10,160 --> 01:00:10,880
Speaker 4: group together.

1232
01:00:10,640 --> 01:00:12,400
Speaker 1: As hard because it is an an expensive trip, but

1233
01:00:12,520 --> 01:00:14,960
Speaker 1: it's just you're getting the boat at a very discounted rate.

1234
01:00:15,480 --> 01:00:19,520
Speaker 4: But you know what I would say is that I'm

1235
01:00:19,560 --> 01:00:21,439
Speaker 4: grateful for all the things they didn't show.

1236
01:00:22,240 --> 01:00:24,720
Speaker 1: I find what they showed. I'm grateful for what they did.

1237
01:00:26,040 --> 01:00:27,480
Speaker 3: I can imagine.

1238
01:00:27,600 --> 01:00:36,840
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, what is the most overrated La food establishment?

1239
01:00:36,960 --> 01:00:41,480
Speaker 3: It can be fast food, it can be restaurants seen oh.

1240
01:00:42,160 --> 01:00:45,920
Speaker 1: Well, I mean La like the Mexican food here, the

1241
01:00:45,960 --> 01:00:51,800
Speaker 1: sushi food here, it's just so phenomenal. Also the Thai food.

1242
01:00:51,880 --> 01:00:58,200
Speaker 1: But in terms of a place, you know, this place,

1243
01:00:58,280 --> 01:01:01,600
Speaker 1: I think it is a little overrated, only because and

1244
01:01:01,680 --> 01:01:03,919
Speaker 1: I get why it's become a landmark, like Rosco's Chicken

1245
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:06,200
Speaker 1: and Waffles is a landmark, right, A lot of people

1246
01:01:06,280 --> 01:01:07,040
Speaker 1: love it, But.

1247
01:01:07,120 --> 01:01:09,680
Speaker 4: There's a lot of actually really good places that are

1248
01:01:10,000 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 4: much better than Roscos.

1249
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:14,440
Speaker 1: And before I lived in La, because there's a Roscos

1250
01:01:14,480 --> 01:01:16,440
Speaker 1: that's close to the airport, I would have to hit

1251
01:01:16,480 --> 01:01:17,600
Speaker 1: this Roscos all the time.

1252
01:01:17,680 --> 01:01:20,919
Speaker 4: And then as I got to learn La and got

1253
01:01:20,960 --> 01:01:23,440
Speaker 4: the windows some other places, I was like, ooh, Roscos

1254
01:01:23,480 --> 01:01:24,400
Speaker 4: has got an over rate.

1255
01:01:24,720 --> 01:01:27,320
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah. I you know, every time I

1256
01:01:27,360 --> 01:01:29,040
Speaker 3: go to La, I have to go to the in

1257
01:01:29,120 --> 01:01:30,520
Speaker 3: and out on Lastopolvida.

1258
01:01:30,640 --> 01:01:34,200
Speaker 2: Yeah, like myself right there about airport, right, because we

1259
01:01:34,240 --> 01:01:36,160
Speaker 2: don't have one out east, and I love it.

1260
01:01:36,320 --> 01:01:37,600
Speaker 3: What what do you think of in and out?

1261
01:01:38,240 --> 01:01:40,360
Speaker 1: I love it in and out, But I guess it's

1262
01:01:40,440 --> 01:01:42,800
Speaker 1: like anything else when you live in the city, when

1263
01:01:42,840 --> 01:01:44,880
Speaker 1: you live in the city where something like that you

1264
01:01:45,000 --> 01:01:48,080
Speaker 1: know is known. But I used to do the same

1265
01:01:48,120 --> 01:01:49,800
Speaker 1: when I came to La had to stop at that

1266
01:01:49,920 --> 01:01:53,080
Speaker 1: particular in and out, either when I landed or when

1267
01:01:53,120 --> 01:01:56,400
Speaker 1: I left, or sometimes both. Yeah, right now that I've

1268
01:01:56,440 --> 01:01:58,240
Speaker 1: lived here, ask me how many times I've been. I've

1269
01:01:58,280 --> 01:02:01,160
Speaker 1: been here since twenty eighteen. I've probably been the in

1270
01:02:01,280 --> 01:02:03,480
Speaker 1: and out twice. Why is that?

1271
01:02:03,640 --> 01:02:07,520
Speaker 3: Yeah, that's what we do, right, It's it's readily available,

1272
01:02:07,640 --> 01:02:09,400
Speaker 3: so I'm just not going to look at it. I'm

1273
01:02:09,440 --> 01:02:10,280
Speaker 3: overlooking it now.

1274
01:02:10,960 --> 01:02:14,320
Speaker 1: So now the allure it's changed me. I was just like, oh,

1275
01:02:14,320 --> 01:02:16,160
Speaker 1: because I know it's right down the street, it's like

1276
01:02:16,400 --> 01:02:19,320
Speaker 1: so good. Now it's not really the same, but it

1277
01:02:19,440 --> 01:02:23,160
Speaker 1: is still very good. And when I got married in

1278
01:02:23,560 --> 01:02:26,400
Speaker 1: twenty nineteen, you know, of course we had to sit

1279
01:02:26,440 --> 01:02:28,400
Speaker 1: down dinner and all that for the reception, but you know,

1280
01:02:28,480 --> 01:02:30,360
Speaker 1: you always have to have some good drunk food because

1281
01:02:31,000 --> 01:02:33,160
Speaker 1: that in and out. So we had we had an

1282
01:02:33,200 --> 01:02:33,840
Speaker 1: in and out truck.

1283
01:02:34,280 --> 01:02:36,760
Speaker 3: Yeah, so that's what I'm so jealous.

1284
01:02:37,360 --> 01:02:40,400
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, final lightning round question. It's the question we

1285
01:02:40,440 --> 01:02:42,160
Speaker 2: ask at the end of every episode because it's the

1286
01:02:42,240 --> 01:02:46,160
Speaker 2: most important to me. When is it iced coffee season?

1287
01:02:47,840 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: In my opinion, never, I have never had ice coffee

1288
01:02:51,480 --> 01:02:56,280
Speaker 1: because the concept of it to me is it is

1289
01:02:57,200 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: something about it that is off. Isn't the word like

1290
01:03:01,440 --> 01:03:05,400
Speaker 1: it is? It bothers my spirit, the idea of ice coffee.

1291
01:03:05,480 --> 01:03:07,520
Speaker 2: Okay, you have the incorrect opinion, but I love that

1292
01:03:07,600 --> 01:03:11,560
Speaker 2: it's strong. So tell me you're incorrect strong about ice coffee.

1293
01:03:12,080 --> 01:03:13,480
Speaker 2: I love that you feel about it.

1294
01:03:13,600 --> 01:03:17,880
Speaker 1: Tell me I do I refuse? I refuse. I don't

1295
01:03:17,880 --> 01:03:19,640
Speaker 1: give a damn how good y'all say it is. I

1296
01:03:19,680 --> 01:03:23,320
Speaker 1: don't want cold coffee. I want my coffee like my husband.

1297
01:03:23,480 --> 01:03:23,720
Speaker 5: Hot.

1298
01:03:24,120 --> 01:03:29,560
Speaker 1: Okay, that's how I want it. I don't needed cold

1299
01:03:29,920 --> 01:03:31,000
Speaker 1: coffee for what?

1300
01:03:31,440 --> 01:03:31,880
Speaker 3: For who?

1301
01:03:33,000 --> 01:03:33,040
Speaker 5: What?

1302
01:03:36,520 --> 01:03:39,040
Speaker 2: I love it because you know, if you come on

1303
01:03:39,200 --> 01:03:43,240
Speaker 2: here and you mess with our iced coffee, okay, you

1304
01:03:43,400 --> 01:03:45,920
Speaker 2: better come with a strong opinion and defend that, and

1305
01:03:46,080 --> 01:03:47,320
Speaker 2: you did, so it's okay.

1306
01:03:47,520 --> 01:03:51,360
Speaker 3: You're allowed. You're allowed. I only like it hot.

1307
01:03:51,600 --> 01:03:53,680
Speaker 1: It's just like I don't even only drink it.

1308
01:03:54,280 --> 01:03:55,840
Speaker 3: That's what's in here. I only drink it ice.

1309
01:03:56,440 --> 01:03:58,760
Speaker 1: Oh but see, this is where I'm a hypocrite and

1310
01:03:58,760 --> 01:04:02,560
Speaker 1: I'm gonna call myself out. I'll eat coffee ice cream,

1311
01:04:03,400 --> 01:04:07,440
Speaker 1: that's the coldest it is. But I don't want to

1312
01:04:07,560 --> 01:04:10,840
Speaker 1: drink cold coffee. I don't want to drink that. It's

1313
01:04:10,920 --> 01:04:13,480
Speaker 1: just like I don't know, I don't want to drink that.

1314
01:04:13,560 --> 01:04:14,960
Speaker 1: It's like if I want some cold, I want like

1315
01:04:15,040 --> 01:04:18,880
Speaker 1: some lemonade, write an adult beverage. I don't want coffee cold.

1316
01:04:19,120 --> 01:04:20,280
Speaker 1: It's the last thing I want.

1317
01:04:20,320 --> 01:04:20,520
Speaker 4: Gold.

1318
01:04:20,760 --> 01:04:23,720
Speaker 2: I'm really glad that you you came with the strong

1319
01:04:23,800 --> 01:04:26,360
Speaker 2: opinion that you defended, You stood on business here, and

1320
01:04:26,480 --> 01:04:27,320
Speaker 2: I appreciate that.

1321
01:04:28,320 --> 01:04:30,400
Speaker 3: I appreciate that even though you're you're wrong.

1322
01:04:30,760 --> 01:04:33,200
Speaker 1: I know in your mind you're thinking, like, what a moron,

1323
01:04:33,320 --> 01:04:35,720
Speaker 1: But that's now I'm kidding.

1324
01:04:35,960 --> 01:04:38,080
Speaker 3: We've done so many of these and we've gotten every answer.

1325
01:04:38,160 --> 01:04:41,240
Speaker 3: We've gotten. Well, ice coffee season is June first to.

1326
01:04:41,320 --> 01:04:44,360
Speaker 1: All get you know, but there's a season for this.

1327
01:04:44,560 --> 01:04:45,000
Speaker 1: We've done.

1328
01:04:45,000 --> 01:04:48,080
Speaker 2: Not every opinion, okay, is there because because it's all

1329
01:04:48,520 --> 01:04:51,520
Speaker 2: all year, it's every day, it's not ye, right, season

1330
01:04:51,640 --> 01:04:52,720
Speaker 2: for ice coffee.

1331
01:04:52,840 --> 01:04:55,920
Speaker 3: Or or it's never. But we've gotten it all. We've

1332
01:04:55,960 --> 01:04:56,520
Speaker 3: gotten it all.

1333
01:04:56,640 --> 01:04:59,720
Speaker 4: You are not alone, and I'm proud to stay up

1334
01:04:59,720 --> 01:05:01,000
Speaker 4: with team Never this taste.

1335
01:05:01,080 --> 01:05:02,160
Speaker 3: Yeah, you are not alone.

1336
01:05:03,680 --> 01:05:07,240
Speaker 2: But Jamelle, this was so fun and so it was

1337
01:05:07,320 --> 01:05:09,520
Speaker 2: just so great to talk to you in this context,

1338
01:05:09,720 --> 01:05:12,480
Speaker 2: not you know, across the table about tariffs, but.

1339
01:05:12,880 --> 01:05:19,360
Speaker 3: You know, right, Yeah, thank you so much.

1340
01:05:19,920 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 4: Well, this was a pleasure, and thank you for having me.

1341
01:05:21,600 --> 01:05:22,160
Speaker 4: I appreciate you.

1342
01:05:22,320 --> 01:05:24,200
Speaker 3: All right, I'll see you around. I'll see you around the.

1343
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,920
Speaker 1: Studio when you do a see an index tonight tonight,

1344
01:05:28,120 --> 01:05:32,000
Speaker 1: Oh you know tonight. Okay, Well, well, good luck with that.

1345
01:05:32,720 --> 01:05:33,040
Speaker 4: Thanks.

1346
01:05:35,240 --> 01:05:38,680
Speaker 2: Next week, I sit down and talk with actor Bradley Whitford,

1347
01:05:38,760 --> 01:05:42,960
Speaker 2: who almost didn't get his famous role in The West Way.

1348
01:05:43,320 --> 01:05:47,360
Speaker 1: Warner Brothers is saying, what do you not understand? Brad

1349
01:05:47,480 --> 01:05:49,240
Speaker 1: Whitford is not going to get this part.

1350
01:05:51,640 --> 01:05:54,040
Speaker 2: Off the Cup is a production of iHeart Podcasts as

1351
01:05:54,080 --> 01:05:56,480
Speaker 2: part of the Reason Choice Networks. If you want more,

1352
01:05:56,640 --> 01:06:00,320
Speaker 2: check out the other Reason Choice podcasts, Politics with Jamel

1353
01:06:00,400 --> 01:06:03,120
Speaker 2: Hill and Native Land pod. For Off the Cup, I

1354
01:06:03,200 --> 01:06:05,840
Speaker 2: am your host, Si Cup. Editing and sound design by

1355
01:06:05,960 --> 01:06:10,280
Speaker 2: Derek clements Our Executive producers are me Se Cup, Lauren Hanson,

1356
01:06:10,520 --> 01:06:14,120
Speaker 2: and Lindsay Hoffman. Rate and review wherever you get your podcasts,

1357
01:06:14,440 --> 01:06:17,600
Speaker 2: Follow or subscribe for new episodes every Wednesday.