WEBVTT - David McLay Kidd 0:00:00.160 --> 0:00:03.360 All right, we're back for the first Frida Egg podcast 0:00:03.440 --> 0:00:07.360 of twenty seventeen, and we're excited to have our esteemed guests, 0:00:07.560 --> 0:00:10.879 David McLay Kid. David is one of the most sought 0:00:10.920 --> 0:00:15.040 after modern day architects and the man behind masterpieces such 0:00:15.040 --> 0:00:20.040 as Bandon Dune's Nannia Golf Club and Gamble Sands. David, 0:00:20.079 --> 0:00:25.880 thanks for coming on my pleasure. So, I think with 0:00:26.079 --> 0:00:28.680 New Year's in order, I'm kind of curious, do you 0:00:28.720 --> 0:00:30.960 have any resolutions for twenty seventeen? 0:00:33.000 --> 0:00:35.920 Hi? Going, that's a good one, And I think my 0:00:36.400 --> 0:00:40.560 resolution for the last pushing ten years now has been 0:00:40.640 --> 0:00:43.479 to get golf to be fun again and not to 0:00:43.479 --> 0:00:51.680 get sucked in by a desire to chease rankings or 0:00:51.760 --> 0:00:58.040 difficulty or any other particular fad or idiosyncrasy that can 0:00:58.080 --> 0:01:01.480 be to the detriment of golf and golfers and fun, 0:01:01.680 --> 0:01:04.200 which is the reason we all do it. So I'm 0:01:04.200 --> 0:01:07.120 going to keep going on that one and try and 0:01:07.160 --> 0:01:10.679 build golf courses that are ridiculously good fun for everyone. 0:01:11.440 --> 0:01:15.560 You know, It's funny. I wrote a lengthy article about 0:01:15.880 --> 0:01:20.320 golf digest Rate ranking system and how like the criteria 0:01:20.400 --> 0:01:21.640 is so flawed. 0:01:21.480 --> 0:01:25.280 And I read it. I had to break through that, 0:01:25.319 --> 0:01:30.480 and I've just the second Golf Diject down with their 0:01:30.600 --> 0:01:33.160 ranking stuff, and I was just emailing Roan Whitten. So 0:01:34.360 --> 0:01:35.640 funny that you should mention. 0:01:35.600 --> 0:01:39.680 That, yeah, is the one defense to par Is. Kind 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:43.240 of that one just gets me because like, why should 0:01:43.240 --> 0:01:47.880 a golf course get discounted, like, you know, get downgraded 0:01:47.920 --> 0:01:52.000 because it's really fun to play and not necessarily. 0:01:51.040 --> 0:01:57.840 Hard, you know, you know, I get where Golf Diject 0:01:57.920 --> 0:02:02.320 and Roman are going with the defense of a you know, I'd. 0:02:02.160 --> 0:02:04.880 Like to think of it more as the defense a birdie. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:10.359 You know, I'd probably argue that as a golf course designer, 0:02:10.440 --> 0:02:14.119 I should be putting up my best defenses against your 0:02:14.160 --> 0:02:17.200 best attack. And your best attack ends up with birdie. 0:02:17.280 --> 0:02:21.160 Right for most golfers, And even if you're a lousy golfer, 0:02:21.560 --> 0:02:24.280 you're getting a net birdie because you've got strokes. So 0:02:24.480 --> 0:02:26.840 I'm going to put up my best defense. If we 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:32.000 take Gamble Sands as my best example today, I defy 0:02:32.200 --> 0:02:36.400 you to easily make birdie on every whole. I will 0:02:36.680 --> 0:02:39.840 contend that gamble Sands put up puts up a very 0:02:39.919 --> 0:02:44.040 healthy defense against birdie. You've got to thread the driver 0:02:44.240 --> 0:02:46.920 exactly in the right place. You've got to put that 0:02:47.000 --> 0:02:49.040 ball in the green so that it rolls out to 0:02:49.120 --> 0:02:51.680 a makeable putt. What would we say a makeable putt 0:02:51.720 --> 0:02:54.200 is six feet eight feet ten feet and then you've 0:02:54.200 --> 0:02:58.239 got a hole on an average part four. I've put 0:02:58.320 --> 0:03:02.679 up more than a good defense as that par. Now 0:03:02.680 --> 0:03:04.760 I'm just asking you to put it in the middle, get 0:03:04.800 --> 0:03:07.800 it somewhere around or on the green, and tupa So 0:03:08.000 --> 0:03:11.359 I'm not trying that hard to defend par. I think 0:03:11.400 --> 0:03:16.000 that a golfer's own inability to perform defends against par, 0:03:16.840 --> 0:03:19.960 and certainly when it switches to bogie and double bogie, 0:03:20.200 --> 0:03:22.720 I reverse gears completely. And now I'm trying to be 0:03:22.800 --> 0:03:24.919 your friend. I'm trying to make sure you can make 0:03:25.000 --> 0:03:29.799 those scores not end up with snowmen. So I see 0:03:29.840 --> 0:03:33.000 where Golf Digest tries to go with the defensive par, 0:03:33.200 --> 0:03:36.840 but I'd rather see it as defensive birdie. And the 0:03:36.880 --> 0:03:40.160 whole resistance to scoring. You know that again sends a 0:03:40.240 --> 0:03:44.520 message to their ranking panel that a higher score is better. 0:03:45.040 --> 0:03:49.040 And I've had my debates on Twitter with a couple 0:03:49.040 --> 0:03:51.200 of guys in the media in this. You know the 0:03:52.040 --> 0:03:55.200 message that's being sent out one way or another is 0:03:55.240 --> 0:03:59.720 that harder is better, and it's still continuing to perpetuate 0:03:59.800 --> 0:04:03.160 that harder is better. That golf digest you're talking about 0:04:03.280 --> 0:04:07.120 has Pine Valley Ranks is number one. That's a really 0:04:07.160 --> 0:04:08.280 really hard golf course. 0:04:09.000 --> 0:04:15.560 Yeah yeah, I mean it's uh got incredible architecture lineage, 0:04:15.680 --> 0:04:17.880 but it is one of the hardest golf courses in 0:04:17.920 --> 0:04:21.919 the world, you know. And I think with when it 0:04:21.960 --> 0:04:28.040 comes to, you know, kind of fun and the mass public, like, 0:04:28.120 --> 0:04:30.679 you know, a scratch player can play any golf course 0:04:30.720 --> 0:04:34.000 from any t and have fun. But it's the fifteen 0:04:34.080 --> 0:04:37.640 that gets hurt by hard golf courses continuing to get 0:04:37.680 --> 0:04:40.680 built over and over and over again, you know. And 0:04:41.040 --> 0:04:43.680 if it's not savage, yeah, and if it's not fun 0:04:43.680 --> 0:04:46.080 to play, why why would you play the sport? 0:04:48.080 --> 0:04:50.560 I think that all too often. You know. That's where 0:04:50.600 --> 0:04:53.320 golf course is full down. Is there are lots of 0:04:53.360 --> 0:04:58.560 golf courses that the average golfer is invited to, wants 0:04:58.600 --> 0:05:01.800 to play because he sees them the magazines. He goes, 0:05:01.960 --> 0:05:06.440 he plays for whatever reason, and somewhere on the front nine, 0:05:06.520 --> 0:05:09.280 when he's lost a few balls and his buddies are 0:05:09.320 --> 0:05:12.400 helping him hunt his third ball in the rough. He 0:05:12.480 --> 0:05:16.000 thinks to himself, too much for me, I'm really not 0:05:16.040 --> 0:05:18.200 having that much fun. I wish these holes would run 0:05:18.200 --> 0:05:23.120 out quicker because I feel embarrassed. And this reminds me 0:05:23.160 --> 0:05:26.159 why I don't really love this game. And so he 0:05:26.200 --> 0:05:29.400 finishes his round out and decides not to play again 0:05:29.480 --> 0:05:31.920 for a while. And I think that that happens all 0:05:31.960 --> 0:05:34.840 too often. The number of courses where that same guy 0:05:35.040 --> 0:05:38.480 goes out and he's told you're on the twelfth hole 0:05:38.560 --> 0:05:41.080 or the fourteenth hole, and he says to himself, oh, hell, 0:05:41.480 --> 0:05:44.000 the holes are running out already. I'm having so much fun. 0:05:44.320 --> 0:05:48.880 I want to do this again. That happens far left 0:05:48.960 --> 0:05:54.040 than the opposite. And my job, my peers job, is 0:05:54.080 --> 0:05:57.400 to create golf courses where that average golfer wants to 0:05:57.440 --> 0:05:59.840 go and do it again, is upset that the holes 0:05:59.839 --> 0:06:03.039 are running out. And that's what Bandon Jun's, all of 0:06:03.040 --> 0:06:05.880 the courses of Bandon Jun's do so well, is the 0:06:05.920 --> 0:06:09.240 average golfer has an absolute black and wants to play 0:06:09.240 --> 0:06:10.040 over and over and over. 0:06:11.680 --> 0:06:15.600 So you know, outside of Bandon Dunes, in your travels, 0:06:15.640 --> 0:06:19.160 what would you say are some of yours and other 0:06:19.279 --> 0:06:23.720 architects best examples of you know, that fun golf course 0:06:23.760 --> 0:06:25.680 where they want to just keep playing. 0:06:28.560 --> 0:06:30.960 I'm not sure I understand outside of. 0:06:30.920 --> 0:06:34.920 What outside of outside of Bandon Dunes, you know what 0:06:34.960 --> 0:06:38.800 would be some other examples across the States and also 0:06:38.839 --> 0:06:42.000 abroad of courses that kind of fit that description. 0:06:42.920 --> 0:06:47.240 You know, weirdly enough, I want to be contrary, you know, 0:06:47.360 --> 0:06:51.040 in my my business, I would like to be as 0:06:51.120 --> 0:06:53.920 best I can be some kind of a disruptor. And 0:06:54.000 --> 0:06:56.920 so in order to be just those two things, I'll 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.560 throw Oakmont at you as an example. Oakmon is the 0:07:01.640 --> 0:07:07.880 perfect a example of why I would argue that playability 0:07:07.960 --> 0:07:11.800 and challenge are not two sides of a scale of justice. 0:07:12.080 --> 0:07:18.680 They're not linked. Oakmont is incredibly difficult, but yet incredibly playable. 0:07:19.400 --> 0:07:22.800 The average golfer can go out and shoot one hundred, 0:07:23.000 --> 0:07:26.920 but you'll do it with the same golfer. The course 0:07:27.000 --> 0:07:31.040 is wide and playable. The target zones to chase burghers 0:07:31.160 --> 0:07:35.000 or even pars are very tight. The course is really long, 0:07:36.520 --> 0:07:39.040 so to a good golfer it is a hell of 0:07:39.080 --> 0:07:41.640 a stiff challenge. But to an average golfer they could 0:07:41.640 --> 0:07:44.880 still have a whole lot of fun. Pine Valley, on 0:07:44.920 --> 0:07:47.160 the other hand, which I've had the privilege of playing 0:07:47.160 --> 0:07:50.440 a number of times, really good for a good golfer. 0:07:50.480 --> 0:07:53.840 I'm a sick handicap, so reasonably good, I can have 0:07:53.920 --> 0:07:56.240 great fun. I can aim at the spots you're supposed 0:07:56.280 --> 0:07:58.880 to aim at. I can hit it to roughly where 0:07:58.920 --> 0:08:02.240 I was supposed to. One mistake on any given hole, 0:08:02.520 --> 0:08:06.040 and hear me, it can double triple snowmane. I mean, 0:08:06.280 --> 0:08:09.560 it gets ugly, really really fast. There's little chance of 0:08:09.560 --> 0:08:14.240 recovery because of the severity of the rocks. The severity 0:08:14.360 --> 0:08:17.000 right in the greens, there's there's it's very severe. The 0:08:17.320 --> 0:08:20.920 the playability is low and the challenge is very high. 0:08:21.320 --> 0:08:25.760 Where Oakland the playability is pretty high and the challenge 0:08:25.800 --> 0:08:26.720 is also pretty high. 0:08:27.400 --> 0:08:31.880 It's it's interesting. I was just writing a review today 0:08:31.960 --> 0:08:35.120 about a course here in Chicago that I thought, you know, 0:08:35.240 --> 0:08:39.079 it's very easy to make bogies at, but making pars 0:08:39.120 --> 0:08:41.760 and birdies is really difficult. Similar to the way you 0:08:41.800 --> 0:08:45.839 describe Oakmont, which is, you know, you know, it might 0:08:45.880 --> 0:08:48.640 be the only person that's ever described Oakmont as being 0:08:48.760 --> 0:08:52.520 very playable, but it makes complete sense. 0:08:53.679 --> 0:08:55.640 I didn't play it before all the trees came out, 0:08:55.720 --> 0:08:58.920 so with the with it covered in trees, it may 0:08:58.960 --> 0:09:01.800 have been a completely different story. But I played it 0:09:01.960 --> 0:09:06.120 post the tree removal and thought to myself, this is great. 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:08.320 I want to play again, you know, I think I 0:09:08.360 --> 0:09:10.880 can do better. And of course next time I went 0:09:10.920 --> 0:09:13.240 out to see if I could do better, I did worse. 0:09:14.200 --> 0:09:16.040 But I had great fun. And I don't think I 0:09:16.120 --> 0:09:18.680 lost the ball because you can't it's open. 0:09:19.160 --> 0:09:22.880 Yeah. So with that, you know you touched on with 0:09:23.360 --> 0:09:26.360 as one of the reasons Oakman is playable. What are 0:09:26.400 --> 0:09:32.120 some other strategies that you employ and use that kind 0:09:32.120 --> 0:09:36.880 of create that playability while still challenging the scoring and 0:09:36.920 --> 0:09:37.440 the birdies. 0:09:39.600 --> 0:09:43.720 Well, here's a stat for you. The average player misses 0:09:43.760 --> 0:09:48.280 the green more than half the time, right, They just 0:09:48.280 --> 0:09:51.120 don't hit the putting surface with their approach shots. And 0:09:51.200 --> 0:09:55.240 yet golf course designers rarely spend as much time thinking 0:09:55.240 --> 0:09:58.120 about the surrounds to the green as they do with 0:09:58.240 --> 0:10:01.080 the green itself. And yet more than half the shots 0:10:01.600 --> 0:10:05.880 are played from around the greens. So as a golf 0:10:05.920 --> 0:10:09.480 course designer, it behooves us to make sure that those 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:12.880 golfers that miss the green, which is every golfer, you know, 0:10:13.320 --> 0:10:17.839 it's just a question of percentages. Doesn't get put in 0:10:17.920 --> 0:10:20.160 jail because they missed the green by a few yards 0:10:20.760 --> 0:10:23.120 and our you know, the kind of rule of thumb 0:10:23.120 --> 0:10:24.920 that I come up with now is if you're doing 0:10:24.960 --> 0:10:29.240 an irrogated golf course, those heads are space sixty feet apart, 0:10:29.440 --> 0:10:34.360 and anything inside that you're actually spending more money to irrigate. 0:10:34.440 --> 0:10:37.960 So if you have the space on the site, you 0:10:38.000 --> 0:10:40.680 may as well leave. You know, somewhere you're in the 0:10:41.320 --> 0:10:46.160 up to sixty feet around the green for someone to recover. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:50.240 So take that step further. When they're recovering, are they 0:10:50.320 --> 0:10:56.120 recovering to make Birdie? No, no, of course not. Are 0:10:56.120 --> 0:11:00.680 they recovering to make par well? They'd like to. So 0:11:00.880 --> 0:11:03.679 I'll go back to my argument that defense of birdie 0:11:03.760 --> 0:11:06.400 is what I'm about, not defense of par. If I 0:11:06.440 --> 0:11:09.559 can let someone miss the green, not put them in jail, 0:11:09.960 --> 0:11:12.839 and give them a you know, maybe a fifty to 0:11:12.880 --> 0:11:15.160 fifty chance so they could still get up and down, 0:11:15.600 --> 0:11:19.880 is that not going to lead to more fun? You 0:11:19.920 --> 0:11:22.840 missed the green take Plain Valley. You miss the green 0:11:22.880 --> 0:11:25.440 at Plain Valley? How many times would you actually lose 0:11:25.480 --> 0:11:28.720 the ball if you missed the green at Plaine Valley 0:11:29.200 --> 0:11:32.520 a bunch mm hmm. I mean you could actually lose 0:11:32.520 --> 0:11:35.960 the ball. Yeah, you'd lose stroke and distance. Now you're 0:11:36.200 --> 0:11:37.320 scrabbling for double. 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:44.240 Yeah. It's the places that are overly penal around the greens, 0:11:44.280 --> 0:11:47.760 and I think that's where the good players are infinitely 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:50.640 better than the average and the bad players is around 0:11:50.679 --> 0:11:54.040 the greens with their recovery capabilities and shots. So the 0:11:54.120 --> 0:11:57.480 tougher it is around the greens, the wider the separation 0:11:58.080 --> 0:11:58.640 you would get. 0:11:58.840 --> 0:12:06.000 Correct, that would be a reasonable analysis to make. Yeah, so. 0:12:07.600 --> 0:12:10.719 To change gears a little bit, I think I think 0:12:10.800 --> 0:12:13.840 I'd love to hear about how you got into golf 0:12:13.880 --> 0:12:18.840 course architecture in the first place. So was it growing 0:12:18.920 --> 0:12:21.920 up or you know what, guy you into? 0:12:22.200 --> 0:12:26.800 Okay, growing up? My father was a greenkeeper in Scotland. 0:12:27.559 --> 0:12:32.199 So my father as a young man worked at ran 0:12:32.280 --> 0:12:35.160 Furley Castle Golf Club on the west side of Glasgow 0:12:36.200 --> 0:12:38.920 and then from there went to Glasgow Golf Club, which 0:12:38.960 --> 0:12:42.360 is the sixth or seventh, maybe the fifth that somewhere 0:12:42.400 --> 0:12:45.400 in there, oldest golf course in the world seventeen to 0:12:45.600 --> 0:12:50.480 ninety odd and he was the hey greenkeeper there for 0:12:50.840 --> 0:12:54.720 twelve years, so that was most of my young childhood 0:12:54.760 --> 0:12:57.359 through elementary school that's where he was the head greenkeeper. 0:12:57.920 --> 0:13:01.000 And then in the early eighties he went to glen 0:13:01.000 --> 0:13:04.240 Eagles which had just been sold by the railway company 0:13:04.280 --> 0:13:06.640 who had kind of run it into the ground, and 0:13:07.040 --> 0:13:09.880 a new private equity company bought it and they wanted 0:13:09.920 --> 0:13:12.960 to bring it back to its former glory in the 0:13:13.000 --> 0:13:17.720 twenties and thirties, and so my father was instrumental and 0:13:18.280 --> 0:13:21.760 renovating the James Braid courses at Gleneagle's back to their 0:13:21.800 --> 0:13:26.280 former glories, and then working with Nicholas to build the 0:13:26.320 --> 0:13:29.440 PGA course which hosted the Ryder Cup the last time 0:13:29.440 --> 0:13:33.280 it was in Europe. So that was my background, my 0:13:33.440 --> 0:13:37.440 childhood in and around golf, the son of one of 0:13:37.440 --> 0:13:43.240 the most influential golf course superintendents, certainly in Scotland, possibly 0:13:43.280 --> 0:13:46.400 in Europe, and if I could be so bold, you know, 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:50.520 maybe across the world. He did a lot for his peers. 0:13:50.559 --> 0:13:53.880 He brought a professionalism to it that didn't exist in 0:13:53.920 --> 0:13:57.800 the sixties and seventies, and you know, I was raised 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:01.120 with that as a model. I loved everything about golf 0:14:01.160 --> 0:14:06.400 courses and when I got to decide my own path. 0:14:07.160 --> 0:14:10.280 I worked for a golf construction company and came to 0:14:11.400 --> 0:14:14.960 really love the creative part of golf, the creation of 0:14:15.120 --> 0:14:19.560 new golf courses and the adjustment of existing golf courses. 0:14:19.880 --> 0:14:23.600 So I took another step on from what my father 0:14:23.640 --> 0:14:26.000 had done at Glen Eagles with the Braid courses and 0:14:26.040 --> 0:14:29.200 the new Nicholas course, and I've been doing that ever since. 0:14:30.560 --> 0:14:37.280 That's a very quick pricie on how my career has 0:14:38.040 --> 0:14:40.120 moved from early childhood to today. 0:14:41.800 --> 0:14:46.120 So you got the Bandon Dunes project at was it 0:14:46.240 --> 0:14:49.520 age twenty eight? Correct? 0:14:49.560 --> 0:14:53.720 Twenty six? I think I was nineteen ninety four was 0:14:53.760 --> 0:14:57.360 when I first saw the site and met Mike, and 0:14:57.360 --> 0:15:02.360 then ninety seven we started building it. In ninety nine 0:15:02.440 --> 0:15:07.280 it opened, So I was thirty just over thirty when 0:15:07.280 --> 0:15:07.840 we finished it. 0:15:08.160 --> 0:15:15.200 Huh. So it was it was your first solo design, correct, not. 0:15:15.280 --> 0:15:18.360 Quite close close enough so it was not to matter. 0:15:19.080 --> 0:15:22.720 So did you have kind of a feeling of you know, 0:15:23.200 --> 0:15:25.920 what you were onto there, like you know where you 0:15:25.920 --> 0:15:29.920 were kind of where the first course to revolutionize what 0:15:30.320 --> 0:15:33.240 now is becoming what resort golf is all about and 0:15:33.360 --> 0:15:37.120 destination golf is about, and you know kind of did 0:15:37.200 --> 0:15:39.600 you feel that magnitude when you were you know, in 0:15:39.600 --> 0:15:42.840 those early stages, No, no, at all. 0:15:43.680 --> 0:15:46.400 It didn't have a name, you know, no one knew 0:15:46.440 --> 0:15:48.880 what it was going to be called. For a while. 0:15:49.000 --> 0:15:53.480 I tried to convince Mike call it McKenzie National or 0:15:53.600 --> 0:15:57.200 Whiskey Run or something else, a few other names that 0:15:57.240 --> 0:16:01.880 we kicked around. Mike KUIs there was you know, some 0:16:02.960 --> 0:16:07.440 you know, relatively successful businessman from Chicago with no pedigree 0:16:08.040 --> 0:16:11.360 in golf. It's not like Mike's a ex pro golfer 0:16:11.480 --> 0:16:15.280 or a developer of notes. You know, he did recycled 0:16:15.280 --> 0:16:18.800 paper for his entire career and made some money at it, 0:16:18.840 --> 0:16:22.200 and he enjoyed playing golf as an average golfer. So 0:16:22.720 --> 0:16:26.080 and he's hiring a young Scottish guy who's got exactly 0:16:26.240 --> 0:16:30.200 zero pedigree. Well that's not quite true. I had the 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:33.000 pedigree of my father and that's really what Mike was hiring. 0:16:35.000 --> 0:16:39.880 So there was no expectation. We thought that the tiny 0:16:39.920 --> 0:16:42.600 little group that was part of it, we thought that 0:16:42.680 --> 0:16:46.160 we could build something really really cool, something off the hook. 0:16:46.840 --> 0:16:50.520 But lots of people think that everyone you know, there's 0:16:50.760 --> 0:16:53.080 I don't know anyone in that in my business that 0:16:53.200 --> 0:16:56.400 doesn't think that what they're currently building isn't going to 0:16:56.480 --> 0:17:00.160 be great, just the same way any musician or our 0:17:00.400 --> 0:17:03.000 film director doesn't think what they're working on isn't going 0:17:03.040 --> 0:17:06.800 to be the next Uscar winner. So I'm not sure 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.439 that we really truly believed in our hearts that it 0:17:10.480 --> 0:17:12.520 was going to be what it ended up being. No 0:17:12.920 --> 0:17:15.000 one did. I mean, we thought we're going to build 0:17:15.000 --> 0:17:18.080 something cool on the Oregon coast that a few people 0:17:18.160 --> 0:17:22.200 might see and think was cool as well. But we 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:27.960 lived in a time where golf courses were lush, green lakes, 0:17:28.240 --> 0:17:35.320 car paths, perfect service. You know, Ben and June's back 0:17:35.359 --> 0:17:38.520 in the mid to late nineties when it was conceived 0:17:38.560 --> 0:17:43.439 and created, was the polar opposite to what golf was. 0:17:44.160 --> 0:17:48.560 Everyone watched Augusta and everybody was pushing towards that economy 0:17:48.680 --> 0:17:54.919 was bringing. And this unheard of guy from Chicago hiring 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:58.000 an unheard of Scotsman is going to build a golf 0:17:58.040 --> 0:18:01.240 course and an unheard of place in America. Where do 0:18:01.280 --> 0:18:03.800 you see your recipe for success in that description? 0:18:05.240 --> 0:18:08.879 It's it's interesting. You know a lot of people in 0:18:09.000 --> 0:18:12.840 tech say that the greatest ideas are the ones that 0:18:13.040 --> 0:18:16.440 people think are the craziest. I mean, take Uber for example. 0:18:16.920 --> 0:18:19.200 Who would have thought ten years ago we'd be getting 0:18:19.200 --> 0:18:23.000 in random people's cars, you know, and not taxicabs. 0:18:25.480 --> 0:18:29.600 Yeah, and I'll give you another one that you know. 0:18:30.160 --> 0:18:36.800 Mike's genius is his ruthless simplicity. He is ruthlessly simple. 0:18:37.040 --> 0:18:39.959 If you come up with an idea to Mike Kaiser 0:18:40.000 --> 0:18:43.560 I'm talking about that is the best idea on planet Earth, 0:18:43.560 --> 0:18:46.560 and you can absolutely prove it to be true, but 0:18:46.720 --> 0:18:50.679 it has came moving parts. I don't think he'd be 0:18:50.720 --> 0:18:54.679 interested you come up with an idea that's got no 0:18:54.840 --> 0:19:00.800 moving parts, He's going to pick that One's uh an analogy, 0:19:00.840 --> 0:19:04.440 of course. But simplicity is what he's good at. And 0:19:04.720 --> 0:19:08.560 I've had the pleasure of working for Mike twenty years 0:19:08.600 --> 0:19:11.440 ago and today and in the twenty years proof that 0:19:11.600 --> 0:19:16.000 in between. I've worked for so many incredibly smart people 0:19:16.720 --> 0:19:19.480 around the world, some of the richest, some of the smartest, 0:19:19.600 --> 0:19:24.560 some of the most celebrated, and none of them have 0:19:24.800 --> 0:19:30.120 the raw simplicity of thought that Mike has. And that's 0:19:31.040 --> 0:19:33.760 where I think his true genius is. It is just 0:19:33.880 --> 0:19:38.520 really really he simplifies everything, and the simplicity of that 0:19:39.640 --> 0:19:44.560 he how do I want to say, he forcibly. He 0:19:44.800 --> 0:19:47.359 enforces it on those that work with them and for them, 0:19:49.160 --> 0:19:53.080 and he brings out the very best in those people 0:19:53.119 --> 0:19:57.040 because he forces them to come up with the easiest, 0:19:57.320 --> 0:20:03.879 simplest solutions to every problem. 0:20:01.920 --> 0:20:05.200 That makes a lot of sense. So you're currently working 0:20:05.480 --> 0:20:10.720 on another Mike Kaiser project, sand Valley up in Wisconsin, 0:20:11.359 --> 0:20:16.520 A you know, another kind of crazy unknown site. Sand 0:20:16.640 --> 0:20:19.960 hills abound over this great piece of land in the 0:20:20.000 --> 0:20:22.639 middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. Why don't you tell us a 0:20:22.720 --> 0:20:27.359 little bit about what we can expect when the David 0:20:27.440 --> 0:20:29.000 Kid course opens up there. 0:20:30.800 --> 0:20:33.399 Well, the first thing is, you know, I said a 0:20:33.400 --> 0:20:36.120 few times now that an Engines was the edge of nowhere, 0:20:36.520 --> 0:20:41.720 and now Mike found the middle of nowhere in Rome, Wisconsin. Uh. 0:20:41.760 --> 0:20:45.159 And it is shocking for those that visit for the 0:20:45.200 --> 0:20:51.719 first time. You're driving through rural Wisconsin with flat dairy 0:20:51.840 --> 0:20:55.520 lands on both sides and then maybe some timber and 0:20:55.560 --> 0:20:58.640 in the middle of the state there's a few thousand 0:20:58.680 --> 0:21:02.480 acres all san juans and they're not even elbows, they're 0:21:02.560 --> 0:21:06.440 they're dunes. They're steep, they're sharp on one side, they're 0:21:06.520 --> 0:21:08.480 soft on the other. Side. They look likely to be 0:21:08.560 --> 0:21:13.919 on the Irish coast. That it's very, very surreal. And 0:21:14.000 --> 0:21:19.000 the sand that's on them is white sugar sand. It's 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:21.960 the most unusual thing. It's not the same sand that 0:21:22.080 --> 0:21:27.560 exists through the sand Velvet Nebraska that's very fine, gray 0:21:27.680 --> 0:21:33.119 brown sand. This is white sugar sand. And then the 0:21:33.240 --> 0:21:38.240 vegetation that grows there these think whispy sedge grasses and 0:21:39.359 --> 0:21:44.640 prairie oaks and pines. I mean, it's it's amazing that 0:21:44.680 --> 0:21:47.760 this exists at all, and I'm amazing yet that no 0:21:47.840 --> 0:21:52.200 one built a doll course on it. As a student 0:21:52.280 --> 0:21:56.239 of golf and golf course development over the last one 0:21:56.320 --> 0:21:58.760 hundred and fifty years, we all look at the Augusta 0:21:58.880 --> 0:22:02.080 Nationals or the Pine and we think, oh, wouldn't it 0:22:02.119 --> 0:22:04.199 be great to find a site like that, But of 0:22:04.200 --> 0:22:06.359 course they don't exist because these were all built on 0:22:06.359 --> 0:22:08.520 one hundred years ago. That's why they don't exist. They're 0:22:08.520 --> 0:22:11.359 aren't built on. And yet here we are, one hundred 0:22:11.400 --> 0:22:16.840 and twenty years later about Mike Kayder stumbles right into 0:22:16.840 --> 0:22:19.119 a few thousand acres in the middle of Wisconsin that 0:22:20.119 --> 0:22:22.520 could have been built by Crump one hundred years ago. 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:28.960 So that course is going to be open for preview 0:22:29.000 --> 0:22:29.840 play next year. 0:22:31.600 --> 0:22:35.800 We have six holes on our course that are grafted, 0:22:36.440 --> 0:22:39.680 the first and the second, and then the fifteenth, sixteen, 0:22:39.760 --> 0:22:42.760 seventeen to eighteenth, So the very beginning and the very 0:22:42.880 --> 0:22:48.080 end of the golf course is completely done grassed. People 0:22:48.119 --> 0:22:50.520 were hitting golf balls around them at the end of 0:22:50.600 --> 0:22:55.400 last year, and by this coming summer the Kaiders intend 0:22:55.440 --> 0:22:58.040 to open those six holes for preview play the same 0:22:58.080 --> 0:23:01.919 as they did with the cre Crenshaw course, and incrementally 0:23:02.000 --> 0:23:05.080 through the summer six holes will lightly turn into nine 0:23:05.160 --> 0:23:07.680 and name twelve, and by the end of the summer 0:23:09.240 --> 0:23:12.040 maybe a few people mic and a few frames might 0:23:12.080 --> 0:23:15.119 get to hit a ball around all eighteen, although it 0:23:15.119 --> 0:23:20.240 will be extremely young at that point. The final fudels, 0:23:20.280 --> 0:23:24.119 which are likely to be around pan eleven, twelve that 0:23:24.200 --> 0:23:29.199 sort of area, and then twenty eighteen the start of 0:23:29.240 --> 0:23:32.640 that season, the course WILLI open up to everyone. 0:23:33.680 --> 0:23:36.840 So with a site like with a site like or 0:23:36.920 --> 0:23:39.960 with a site like banded dunes or sand valley where 0:23:40.000 --> 0:23:44.359 you have kind of an expansive landscape, what are the 0:23:44.520 --> 0:23:49.040 challenges with a big, you know, land site versus where 0:23:49.040 --> 0:23:51.879 you're kind of constricted and you may might have to 0:23:52.160 --> 0:23:55.320 route around housing developments. How do those two different types 0:23:55.359 --> 0:23:58.520 of projects like, what are some of the tough things 0:23:58.520 --> 0:23:59.320 about each of those? 0:24:02.280 --> 0:24:06.439 You know, Funnily enough, when you're giving no constraint, it 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.000 can have its own struggles. When when you're giving a 0:24:09.000 --> 0:24:13.160 piece of land that's got no boundaries. You know, Michael Kaiser, 0:24:13.480 --> 0:24:16.920 Mike's sun is the one that we that my team 0:24:16.960 --> 0:24:19.320 deal with on a day to day basis, and and 0:24:19.440 --> 0:24:22.080 he's really been the driving force of this project on 0:24:22.119 --> 0:24:26.040 the ground, him and his brother Chris. You know, they 0:24:26.160 --> 0:24:28.840 told us right from the beginning, you know, well, pick 0:24:28.920 --> 0:24:31.520 any piece of land you want. You know, it's somewhere 0:24:31.680 --> 0:24:34.960 proximate to the core crunch of course, any side you want, Well, 0:24:34.960 --> 0:24:37.080 where are the boundaries? Well, we've got kind of a 0:24:37.119 --> 0:24:39.640 deal with the existing landowner that you know, we can 0:24:39.680 --> 0:24:42.120 buy up whatever we want. We've got options on it, 0:24:42.720 --> 0:24:47.320 so that with no limitations. It becomes a real struggle 0:24:47.320 --> 0:24:50.480 because you're spoilt with choices, You're you're not quite sure 0:24:50.520 --> 0:24:54.200 where to go. And believe it or not, that can 0:24:55.240 --> 0:24:57.200 you can end up like a deer in headlights where 0:24:57.240 --> 0:25:00.520 you just don't know where to go. So what we 0:25:00.560 --> 0:25:04.480 did is we knuckled down and we used a little 0:25:04.480 --> 0:25:08.639 bit of technology to help us. Because the land mass 0:25:08.720 --> 0:25:13.920 was so large, we looked at it on a much 0:25:14.040 --> 0:25:16.600 larger scale, much larger than you could ever do on 0:25:16.640 --> 0:25:19.399