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Speaker 1: All right, we're back for the first Frida Egg podcast

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Speaker 1: of twenty seventeen, and we're excited to have our esteemed guests,

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Speaker 1: David McLay Kid. David is one of the most sought

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Speaker 1: after modern day architects and the man behind masterpieces such

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Speaker 1: as Bandon Dune's Nannia Golf Club and Gamble Sands. David,

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Speaker 1: thanks for coming on my pleasure. So, I think with

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Speaker 1: New Year's in order, I'm kind of curious, do you

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Speaker 1: have any resolutions for twenty seventeen?

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Speaker 2: Hi? Going, that's a good one, And I think my

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Speaker 2: resolution for the last pushing ten years now has been

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Speaker 2: to get golf to be fun again and not to

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Speaker 2: get sucked in by a desire to chease rankings or

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Speaker 2: difficulty or any other particular fad or idiosyncrasy that can

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Speaker 2: be to the detriment of golf and golfers and fun,

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Speaker 2: which is the reason we all do it. So I'm

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Speaker 2: going to keep going on that one and try and

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Speaker 2: build golf courses that are ridiculously good fun for everyone.

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Speaker 1: You know, It's funny. I wrote a lengthy article about

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Speaker 1: golf digest Rate ranking system and how like the criteria

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Speaker 1: is so flawed.

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Speaker 2: And I read it. I had to break through that,

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Speaker 2: and I've just the second Golf Diject down with their

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Speaker 2: ranking stuff, and I was just emailing Roan Whitten. So

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Speaker 2: funny that you should mention.

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Speaker 1: That, yeah, is the one defense to par Is. Kind

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Speaker 1: of that one just gets me because like, why should

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Speaker 1: a golf course get discounted, like, you know, get downgraded

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Speaker 1: because it's really fun to play and not necessarily.

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Speaker 3: Hard, you know, you know, I get where Golf Diject

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Speaker 3: and Roman are going with the defense of a you know, I'd.

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Speaker 2: Like to think of it more as the defense a birdie.

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Speaker 2: You know, I'd probably argue that as a golf course designer,

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Speaker 2: I should be putting up my best defenses against your

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Speaker 2: best attack. And your best attack ends up with birdie.

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Speaker 2: Right for most golfers, And even if you're a lousy golfer,

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Speaker 2: you're getting a net birdie because you've got strokes. So

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Speaker 2: I'm going to put up my best defense. If we

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Speaker 2: take Gamble Sands as my best example today, I defy

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Speaker 2: you to easily make birdie on every whole. I will

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Speaker 2: contend that gamble Sands put up puts up a very

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Speaker 2: healthy defense against birdie. You've got to thread the driver

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Speaker 2: exactly in the right place. You've got to put that

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Speaker 2: ball in the green so that it rolls out to

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Speaker 2: a makeable putt. What would we say a makeable putt

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Speaker 2: is six feet eight feet ten feet and then you've

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Speaker 2: got a hole on an average part four. I've put

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Speaker 2: up more than a good defense as that par. Now

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Speaker 2: I'm just asking you to put it in the middle, get

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Speaker 2: it somewhere around or on the green, and tupa So

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Speaker 2: I'm not trying that hard to defend par. I think

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Speaker 2: that a golfer's own inability to perform defends against par,

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Speaker 2: and certainly when it switches to bogie and double bogie,

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Speaker 2: I reverse gears completely. And now I'm trying to be

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Speaker 2: your friend. I'm trying to make sure you can make

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Speaker 2: those scores not end up with snowmen. So I see

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Speaker 2: where Golf Digest tries to go with the defensive par,

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Speaker 2: but I'd rather see it as defensive birdie. And the

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Speaker 2: whole resistance to scoring. You know that again sends a

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Speaker 2: message to their ranking panel that a higher score is better.

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Speaker 2: And I've had my debates on Twitter with a couple

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Speaker 2: of guys in the media in this. You know the

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Speaker 2: message that's being sent out one way or another is

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Speaker 2: that harder is better, and it's still continuing to perpetuate

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Speaker 2: that harder is better. That golf digest you're talking about

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Speaker 2: has Pine Valley Ranks is number one. That's a really

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Speaker 2: really hard golf course.

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Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, I mean it's uh got incredible architecture lineage,

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Speaker 1: but it is one of the hardest golf courses in

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Speaker 1: the world, you know. And I think with when it

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Speaker 1: comes to, you know, kind of fun and the mass public, like,

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Speaker 1: you know, a scratch player can play any golf course

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Speaker 1: from any t and have fun. But it's the fifteen

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Speaker 1: that gets hurt by hard golf courses continuing to get

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Speaker 1: built over and over and over again, you know. And

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Speaker 1: if it's not savage, yeah, and if it's not fun

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Speaker 1: to play, why why would you play the sport?

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Speaker 2: I think that all too often. You know. That's where

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Speaker 2: golf course is full down. Is there are lots of

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Speaker 2: golf courses that the average golfer is invited to, wants

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Speaker 2: to play because he sees them the magazines. He goes,

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Speaker 2: he plays for whatever reason, and somewhere on the front nine,

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Speaker 2: when he's lost a few balls and his buddies are

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Speaker 2: helping him hunt his third ball in the rough. He

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Speaker 2: thinks to himself, too much for me, I'm really not

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Speaker 2: having that much fun. I wish these holes would run

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Speaker 2: out quicker because I feel embarrassed. And this reminds me

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Speaker 2: why I don't really love this game. And so he

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Speaker 2: finishes his round out and decides not to play again

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Speaker 2: for a while. And I think that that happens all

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Speaker 2: too often. The number of courses where that same guy

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Speaker 2: goes out and he's told you're on the twelfth hole

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Speaker 2: or the fourteenth hole, and he says to himself, oh, hell,

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Speaker 2: the holes are running out already. I'm having so much fun.

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Speaker 2: I want to do this again. That happens far left

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Speaker 2: than the opposite. And my job, my peers job, is

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Speaker 2: to create golf courses where that average golfer wants to

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Speaker 2: go and do it again, is upset that the holes

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Speaker 2: are running out. And that's what Bandon Jun's, all of

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Speaker 2: the courses of Bandon Jun's do so well, is the

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Speaker 2: average golfer has an absolute black and wants to play

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Speaker 2: over and over and over.

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Speaker 1: So you know, outside of Bandon Dunes, in your travels,

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Speaker 1: what would you say are some of yours and other

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Speaker 1: architects best examples of you know, that fun golf course

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Speaker 1: where they want to just keep playing.

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Speaker 2: I'm not sure I understand outside of.

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Speaker 1: What outside of outside of Bandon Dunes, you know what

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Speaker 1: would be some other examples across the States and also

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Speaker 1: abroad of courses that kind of fit that description.

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Speaker 2: You know, weirdly enough, I want to be contrary, you know,

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Speaker 2: in my my business, I would like to be as

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Speaker 2: best I can be some kind of a disruptor. And

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Speaker 2: so in order to be just those two things, I'll

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Speaker 2: throw Oakmont at you as an example. Oakmon is the

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Speaker 2: perfect a example of why I would argue that playability

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Speaker 2: and challenge are not two sides of a scale of justice.

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Speaker 2: They're not linked. Oakmont is incredibly difficult, but yet incredibly playable.

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Speaker 2: The average golfer can go out and shoot one hundred,

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Speaker 2: but you'll do it with the same golfer. The course

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Speaker 2: is wide and playable. The target zones to chase burghers

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Speaker 2: or even pars are very tight. The course is really long,

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Speaker 2: so to a good golfer it is a hell of

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Speaker 2: a stiff challenge. But to an average golfer they could

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Speaker 2: still have a whole lot of fun. Pine Valley, on

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Speaker 2: the other hand, which I've had the privilege of playing

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Speaker 2: a number of times, really good for a good golfer.

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Speaker 2: I'm a sick handicap, so reasonably good, I can have

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Speaker 2: great fun. I can aim at the spots you're supposed

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Speaker 2: to aim at. I can hit it to roughly where

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Speaker 2: I was supposed to. One mistake on any given hole,

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Speaker 2: and hear me, it can double triple snowmane. I mean,

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Speaker 2: it gets ugly, really really fast. There's little chance of

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Speaker 2: recovery because of the severity of the rocks. The severity

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Speaker 2: right in the greens, there's there's it's very severe. The

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Speaker 2: the playability is low and the challenge is very high.

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Speaker 2: Where Oakland the playability is pretty high and the challenge

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Speaker 2: is also pretty high.

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting. I was just writing a review today

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Speaker 1: about a course here in Chicago that I thought, you know,

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Speaker 1: it's very easy to make bogies at, but making pars

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Speaker 1: and birdies is really difficult. Similar to the way you

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Speaker 1: describe Oakmont, which is, you know, you know, it might

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Speaker 1: be the only person that's ever described Oakmont as being

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Speaker 1: very playable, but it makes complete sense.

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Speaker 2: I didn't play it before all the trees came out,

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Speaker 2: so with the with it covered in trees, it may

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Speaker 2: have been a completely different story. But I played it

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Speaker 2: post the tree removal and thought to myself, this is great.

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Speaker 2: I want to play again, you know, I think I

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Speaker 2: can do better. And of course next time I went

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Speaker 2: out to see if I could do better, I did worse.

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Speaker 2: But I had great fun. And I don't think I

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Speaker 2: lost the ball because you can't it's open.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. So with that, you know you touched on with

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Speaker 1: as one of the reasons Oakman is playable. What are

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Speaker 1: some other strategies that you employ and use that kind

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Speaker 1: of create that playability while still challenging the scoring and

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Speaker 1: the birdies.

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Speaker 2: Well, here's a stat for you. The average player misses

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Speaker 2: the green more than half the time, right, They just

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Speaker 2: don't hit the putting surface with their approach shots. And

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Speaker 2: yet golf course designers rarely spend as much time thinking

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Speaker 2: about the surrounds to the green as they do with

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Speaker 2: the green itself. And yet more than half the shots

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Speaker 2: are played from around the greens. So as a golf

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Speaker 2: course designer, it behooves us to make sure that those

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Speaker 2: golfers that miss the green, which is every golfer, you know,

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Speaker 2: it's just a question of percentages. Doesn't get put in

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Speaker 2: jail because they missed the green by a few yards

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Speaker 2: and our you know, the kind of rule of thumb

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Speaker 2: that I come up with now is if you're doing

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Speaker 2: an irrogated golf course, those heads are space sixty feet apart,

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Speaker 2: and anything inside that you're actually spending more money to irrigate.

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Speaker 2: So if you have the space on the site, you

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Speaker 2: may as well leave. You know, somewhere you're in the

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Speaker 2: up to sixty feet around the green for someone to recover.

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Speaker 2: So take that step further. When they're recovering, are they

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Speaker 2: recovering to make Birdie? No, no, of course not. Are

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Speaker 2: they recovering to make par well? They'd like to. So

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Speaker 2: I'll go back to my argument that defense of birdie

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Speaker 2: is what I'm about, not defense of par. If I

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Speaker 2: can let someone miss the green, not put them in jail,

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Speaker 2: and give them a you know, maybe a fifty to

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Speaker 2: fifty chance so they could still get up and down,

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Speaker 2: is that not going to lead to more fun? You

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Speaker 2: missed the green take Plain Valley. You miss the green

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Speaker 2: at Plain Valley? How many times would you actually lose

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Speaker 2: the ball if you missed the green at Plaine Valley

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Speaker 2: a bunch mm hmm. I mean you could actually lose

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Speaker 2: the ball. Yeah, you'd lose stroke and distance. Now you're

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Speaker 2: scrabbling for double.

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Speaker 1: Yeah. It's the places that are overly penal around the greens,

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Speaker 1: and I think that's where the good players are infinitely

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Speaker 1: better than the average and the bad players is around

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Speaker 1: the greens with their recovery capabilities and shots. So the

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Speaker 1: tougher it is around the greens, the wider the separation

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Speaker 1: you would get.

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Speaker 2: Correct, that would be a reasonable analysis to make. Yeah, so.

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Speaker 1: To change gears a little bit, I think I think

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Speaker 1: I'd love to hear about how you got into golf

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Speaker 1: course architecture in the first place. So was it growing

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Speaker 1: up or you know what, guy you into?

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Speaker 2: Okay, growing up? My father was a greenkeeper in Scotland.

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Speaker 2: So my father as a young man worked at ran

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Speaker 2: Furley Castle Golf Club on the west side of Glasgow

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Speaker 2: and then from there went to Glasgow Golf Club, which

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Speaker 2: is the sixth or seventh, maybe the fifth that somewhere

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Speaker 2: in there, oldest golf course in the world seventeen to

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Speaker 2: ninety odd and he was the hey greenkeeper there for

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Speaker 2: twelve years, so that was most of my young childhood

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Speaker 2: through elementary school that's where he was the head greenkeeper.

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Speaker 2: And then in the early eighties he went to glen

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Speaker 2: Eagles which had just been sold by the railway company

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Speaker 2: who had kind of run it into the ground, and

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Speaker 2: a new private equity company bought it and they wanted

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Speaker 2: to bring it back to its former glory in the

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Speaker 2: twenties and thirties, and so my father was instrumental and

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Speaker 2: renovating the James Braid courses at Gleneagle's back to their

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Speaker 2: former glories, and then working with Nicholas to build the

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Speaker 2: PGA course which hosted the Ryder Cup the last time

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Speaker 2: it was in Europe. So that was my background, my

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Speaker 2: childhood in and around golf, the son of one of

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Speaker 2: the most influential golf course superintendents, certainly in Scotland, possibly

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Speaker 2: in Europe, and if I could be so bold, you know,

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Speaker 2: maybe across the world. He did a lot for his peers.

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Speaker 2: He brought a professionalism to it that didn't exist in

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Speaker 2: the sixties and seventies, and you know, I was raised

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Speaker 2: with that as a model. I loved everything about golf

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Speaker 2: courses and when I got to decide my own path.

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Speaker 2: I worked for a golf construction company and came to

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Speaker 2: really love the creative part of golf, the creation of

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Speaker 2: new golf courses and the adjustment of existing golf courses.

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Speaker 2: So I took another step on from what my father

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Speaker 2: had done at Glen Eagles with the Braid courses and

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Speaker 2: the new Nicholas course, and I've been doing that ever since.

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Speaker 2: That's a very quick pricie on how my career has

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Speaker 2: moved from early childhood to today.

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Speaker 1: So you got the Bandon Dunes project at was it

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Speaker 1: age twenty eight? Correct?

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Speaker 2: Twenty six? I think I was nineteen ninety four was

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Speaker 2: when I first saw the site and met Mike, and

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Speaker 2: then ninety seven we started building it. In ninety nine

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Speaker 2: it opened, So I was thirty just over thirty when

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Speaker 2: we finished it.

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Speaker 1: Huh. So it was it was your first solo design, correct, not.

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Speaker 2: Quite close close enough so it was not to matter.

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Speaker 1: So did you have kind of a feeling of you know,

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Speaker 1: what you were onto there, like you know where you

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Speaker 1: were kind of where the first course to revolutionize what

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Speaker 1: now is becoming what resort golf is all about and

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Speaker 1: destination golf is about, and you know kind of did

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Speaker 1: you feel that magnitude when you were you know, in

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Speaker 1: those early stages, No, no, at all.

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Speaker 2: It didn't have a name, you know, no one knew

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Speaker 2: what it was going to be called. For a while.

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Speaker 2: I tried to convince Mike call it McKenzie National or

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Speaker 2: Whiskey Run or something else, a few other names that

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Speaker 2: we kicked around. Mike KUIs there was you know, some

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Speaker 2: you know, relatively successful businessman from Chicago with no pedigree

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Speaker 2: in golf. It's not like Mike's a ex pro golfer

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Speaker 2: or a developer of notes. You know, he did recycled

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Speaker 2: paper for his entire career and made some money at it,

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Speaker 2: and he enjoyed playing golf as an average golfer. So

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Speaker 2: and he's hiring a young Scottish guy who's got exactly

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Speaker 2: zero pedigree. Well that's not quite true. I had the

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Speaker 2: pedigree of my father and that's really what Mike was hiring.

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Speaker 2: So there was no expectation. We thought that the tiny

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Speaker 2: little group that was part of it, we thought that

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Speaker 2: we could build something really really cool, something off the hook.

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Speaker 2: But lots of people think that everyone you know, there's

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Speaker 2: I don't know anyone in that in my business that

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Speaker 2: doesn't think that what they're currently building isn't going to

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Speaker 2: be great, just the same way any musician or our

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Speaker 2: film director doesn't think what they're working on isn't going

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Speaker 2: to be the next Uscar winner. So I'm not sure

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Speaker 2: that we really truly believed in our hearts that it

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Speaker 2: was going to be what it ended up being. No

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Speaker 2: one did. I mean, we thought we're going to build

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Speaker 2: something cool on the Oregon coast that a few people

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Speaker 2: might see and think was cool as well. But we

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Speaker 2: lived in a time where golf courses were lush, green lakes,

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Speaker 2: car paths, perfect service. You know, Ben and June's back

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Speaker 2: in the mid to late nineties when it was conceived

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Speaker 2: and created, was the polar opposite to what golf was.

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Speaker 2: Everyone watched Augusta and everybody was pushing towards that economy

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Speaker 2: was bringing. And this unheard of guy from Chicago hiring

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Speaker 2: an unheard of Scotsman is going to build a golf

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Speaker 2: course and an unheard of place in America. Where do

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Speaker 2: you see your recipe for success in that description?

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Speaker 1: It's it's interesting. You know a lot of people in

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Speaker 1: tech say that the greatest ideas are the ones that

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Speaker 1: people think are the craziest. I mean, take Uber for example.

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Speaker 1: Who would have thought ten years ago we'd be getting

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Speaker 1: in random people's cars, you know, and not taxicabs.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, and I'll give you another one that you know.

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Speaker 2: Mike's genius is his ruthless simplicity. He is ruthlessly simple.

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Speaker 2: If you come up with an idea to Mike Kaiser

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Speaker 2: I'm talking about that is the best idea on planet Earth,

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Speaker 2: and you can absolutely prove it to be true, but

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Speaker 2: it has came moving parts. I don't think he'd be

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Speaker 2: interested you come up with an idea that's got no

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Speaker 2: moving parts, He's going to pick that One's uh an analogy,

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Speaker 2: of course. But simplicity is what he's good at. And

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Speaker 2: I've had the pleasure of working for Mike twenty years

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Speaker 2: ago and today and in the twenty years proof that

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Speaker 2: in between. I've worked for so many incredibly smart people

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Speaker 2: around the world, some of the richest, some of the smartest,

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Speaker 2: some of the most celebrated, and none of them have

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Speaker 2: the raw simplicity of thought that Mike has. And that's

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Speaker 2: where I think his true genius is. It is just

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Speaker 2: really really he simplifies everything, and the simplicity of that

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Speaker 2: he how do I want to say, he forcibly. He

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Speaker 2: enforces it on those that work with them and for them,

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Speaker 2: and he brings out the very best in those people

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Speaker 2: because he forces them to come up with the easiest,

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Speaker 2: simplest solutions to every problem.

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Speaker 1: That makes a lot of sense. So you're currently working

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Speaker 1: on another Mike Kaiser project, sand Valley up in Wisconsin,

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Speaker 1: A you know, another kind of crazy unknown site. Sand

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Speaker 1: hills abound over this great piece of land in the

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Speaker 1: middle of nowhere, Wisconsin. Why don't you tell us a

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Speaker 1: little bit about what we can expect when the David

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Speaker 1: Kid course opens up there.

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Speaker 2: Well, the first thing is, you know, I said a

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Speaker 2: few times now that an Engines was the edge of nowhere,

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Speaker 2: and now Mike found the middle of nowhere in Rome, Wisconsin. Uh.

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Speaker 2: And it is shocking for those that visit for the

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Speaker 2: first time. You're driving through rural Wisconsin with flat dairy

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Speaker 2: lands on both sides and then maybe some timber and

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Speaker 2: in the middle of the state there's a few thousand

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Speaker 2: acres all san juans and they're not even elbows, they're

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Speaker 2: they're dunes. They're steep, they're sharp on one side, they're

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Speaker 2: soft on the other. Side. They look likely to be

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Speaker 2: on the Irish coast. That it's very, very surreal. And

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Speaker 2: the sand that's on them is white sugar sand. It's

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Speaker 2: the most unusual thing. It's not the same sand that

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Speaker 2: exists through the sand Velvet Nebraska that's very fine, gray

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Speaker 2: brown sand. This is white sugar sand. And then the

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Speaker 2: vegetation that grows there these think whispy sedge grasses and

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Speaker 2: prairie oaks and pines. I mean, it's it's amazing that

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Speaker 2: this exists at all, and I'm amazing yet that no

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Speaker 2: one built a doll course on it. As a student

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Speaker 2: of golf and golf course development over the last one

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Speaker 2: hundred and fifty years, we all look at the Augusta

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Speaker 2: Nationals or the Pine and we think, oh, wouldn't it

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Speaker 2: be great to find a site like that, But of

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Speaker 2: course they don't exist because these were all built on

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Speaker 2: one hundred years ago. That's why they don't exist. They're

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Speaker 2: aren't built on. And yet here we are, one hundred

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Speaker 2: and twenty years later about Mike Kayder stumbles right into

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Speaker 2: a few thousand acres in the middle of Wisconsin that

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Speaker 2: could have been built by Crump one hundred years ago.

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Speaker 1: So that course is going to be open for preview

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Speaker 1: play next year.

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Speaker 2: We have six holes on our course that are grafted,

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Speaker 2: the first and the second, and then the fifteenth, sixteen,

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Speaker 2: seventeen to eighteenth, So the very beginning and the very

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Speaker 2: end of the golf course is completely done grassed. People

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Speaker 2: were hitting golf balls around them at the end of

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Speaker 2: last year, and by this coming summer the Kaiders intend

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Speaker 2: to open those six holes for preview play the same

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Speaker 2: as they did with the cre Crenshaw course, and incrementally

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Speaker 2: through the summer six holes will lightly turn into nine

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Speaker 2: and name twelve, and by the end of the summer

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Speaker 2: maybe a few people mic and a few frames might

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Speaker 2: get to hit a ball around all eighteen, although it

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Speaker 2: will be extremely young at that point. The final fudels,

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Speaker 2: which are likely to be around pan eleven, twelve that

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Speaker 2: sort of area, and then twenty eighteen the start of

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Speaker 2: that season, the course WILLI open up to everyone.

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Speaker 1: So with a site like with a site like or

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Speaker 1: with a site like banded dunes or sand valley where

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Speaker 1: you have kind of an expansive landscape, what are the

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Speaker 1: challenges with a big, you know, land site versus where

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Speaker 1: you're kind of constricted and you may might have to

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Speaker 1: route around housing developments. How do those two different types

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Speaker 1: of projects like, what are some of the tough things

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Speaker 1: about each of those?

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Speaker 2: You know, Funnily enough, when you're giving no constraint, it

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Speaker 2: can have its own struggles. When when you're giving a

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Speaker 2: piece of land that's got no boundaries. You know, Michael Kaiser,

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Speaker 2: Mike's sun is the one that we that my team

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Speaker 2: deal with on a day to day basis, and and

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Speaker 2: he's really been the driving force of this project on

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Speaker 2: the ground, him and his brother Chris. You know, they

386
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Speaker 2: told us right from the beginning, you know, well, pick

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Speaker 2: any piece of land you want. You know, it's somewhere

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Speaker 2: proximate to the core crunch of course, any side you want, Well,

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Speaker 2: where are the boundaries? Well, we've got kind of a

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Speaker 2: deal with the existing landowner that you know, we can

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Speaker 2: buy up whatever we want. We've got options on it,

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Speaker 2: so that with no limitations. It becomes a real struggle

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Speaker 2: because you're spoilt with choices, You're you're not quite sure

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Speaker 2: where to go. And believe it or not, that can

395
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Speaker 2: you can end up like a deer in headlights where

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00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:00,520
Speaker 2: you just don't know where to go. So what we

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00:25:00,560 --> 00:25:04,480
Speaker 2: did is we knuckled down and we used a little

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Speaker 2: bit of technology to help us. Because the land mass

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Speaker 2: was so large, we looked at it on a much

400
00:25:14,040 --> 00:25:16,600
Speaker 2: larger scale, much larger than you could ever do on

401
00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:19,399
Speaker 2: the ground with your feet, and we looked at Google

402
00:25:19,440 --> 00:25:23,080
Speaker 2: Earth and aerial mapping, and we figured out where the

403
00:25:23,160 --> 00:25:28,480
Speaker 2: major landforms were. And we saw from the satellite photography

404
00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:32,760
Speaker 2: that there was a giant ridge slightly to the northeast

405
00:25:32,880 --> 00:25:36,080
Speaker 2: of the core Crenshaw Course. And this ridge V shaped

406
00:25:36,160 --> 00:25:40,720
Speaker 2: ridge that points effectively due east with the open end

407
00:25:40,720 --> 00:25:44,320
Speaker 2: of the due west, was pretty big. Each part of

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Speaker 2: the V about a mile long, ranging up to about

409
00:25:47,160 --> 00:25:52,560
Speaker 2: eighty feet high. You couldn't see it walking the ground.

410
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Speaker 2: You'd see a hill, but you wouldn't understand that this

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00:25:56,320 --> 00:25:59,960
Speaker 2: was actually part of this giant landform. So we decided

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Speaker 2: that we would take this giant, imposing landform and see

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00:26:03,920 --> 00:26:06,760
Speaker 2: if we could figure out how to root an eighteen

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00:26:06,800 --> 00:26:08,800
Speaker 2: hole golf course around it. And that's when we got

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Speaker 2: out on the ground and we really started to hike,

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00:26:12,400 --> 00:26:15,800
Speaker 2: and over a few weeks we hiked and hiked and

417
00:26:15,840 --> 00:26:18,679
Speaker 2: hiked and figured out how to get a golf course

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00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:22,800
Speaker 2: around it and threw it and over it, and we

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00:26:22,920 --> 00:26:25,240
Speaker 2: had the clubhouse at the head of the V, the

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00:26:25,560 --> 00:26:28,520
Speaker 2: eastern end at the sharp point if you like, looking

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00:26:28,600 --> 00:26:33,000
Speaker 2: back out the wide end of the V. And when

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00:26:33,040 --> 00:26:36,800
Speaker 2: all was said and done and we won the bakeoff

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00:26:36,880 --> 00:26:40,840
Speaker 2: that Mike ran between ourselves and Tom Doak and a

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00:26:40,880 --> 00:26:43,720
Speaker 2: couple of others, he said, yeah, I like the plan.

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Speaker 2: I love all the holes. It's all great. That could

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00:26:45,480 --> 00:26:47,479
Speaker 2: you flip the clubhouse to the other end of the

427
00:26:47,520 --> 00:26:49,760
Speaker 2: site and keep all the holes just the way they are?

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Speaker 2: And that's the kind of thing that Mike will do.

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Speaker 1: You know.

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Speaker 2: He changed the fundamental pore of our design by flipping

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Speaker 2: the clubhouse and then said, I don't want you to

432
00:27:01,480 --> 00:27:05,600
Speaker 2: redesign it. Figure out how to make it work. That

433
00:27:05,760 --> 00:27:06,960
Speaker 2: is no easy challenge.

434
00:27:07,040 --> 00:27:07,240
Speaker 1: You know.

435
00:27:07,280 --> 00:27:10,199
Speaker 2: I really like the car you designed. I really like

436
00:27:10,320 --> 00:27:12,800
Speaker 2: only to have three wheels. I want everything you gave me.

437
00:27:13,320 --> 00:27:16,800
Speaker 2: I want the sixteenth steering wheel on the same spot

438
00:27:16,880 --> 00:27:19,040
Speaker 2: everything you've given me. I'll just rather it only had

439
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 2: three wheels. That level of difficulty. But you know what,

440
00:27:24,600 --> 00:27:27,040
Speaker 2: he figures that we're smart people and we'll figure it out.

441
00:27:27,960 --> 00:27:31,120
Speaker 2: Sure enough, we figured it out. The holes are all

442
00:27:31,160 --> 00:27:34,200
Speaker 2: pretty much exactly where they were on the original plan.

443
00:27:35,000 --> 00:27:39,080
Speaker 2: The only thing that we really changed were the numbers.

444
00:27:38,760 --> 00:27:43,680
Speaker 1: So now and it's current routing. It goes out up

445
00:27:43,720 --> 00:27:48,280
Speaker 1: the landform, down the landform and back kind of that's correct.

446
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,080
Speaker 2: Yeah. Now the clubhouse, which will actually be the main

447
00:27:52,119 --> 00:27:55,560
Speaker 2: clubhouse for the whole development, is on the western end

448
00:27:55,760 --> 00:27:58,720
Speaker 2: of this giant V, at the open end of the V,

449
00:28:00,040 --> 00:28:03,600
Speaker 2: basically at the I haven't thought of this before, but

450
00:28:03,640 --> 00:28:07,919
Speaker 2: the clubhouse is really at the the stock end of

451
00:28:07,920 --> 00:28:11,920
Speaker 2: the arrow and you're looking down the arrow.

452
00:28:13,480 --> 00:28:17,879
Speaker 1: That's cool. So that's that's I mean, it's got to

453
00:28:17,920 --> 00:28:20,840
Speaker 1: be kind of a crazy thing to have all that

454
00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:23,280
Speaker 1: land and just have to figure it out, do you

455
00:28:23,680 --> 00:28:26,000
Speaker 1: So when you found that landform, is it? Then? Do

456
00:28:26,040 --> 00:28:28,840
Speaker 1: you work from the greens back? Or how did you know?

457
00:28:28,880 --> 00:28:32,159
Speaker 1: I've I've read, you know, different architects route holes and

458
00:28:32,280 --> 00:28:36,000
Speaker 1: courses different ways. How how did you kind of go

459
00:28:36,119 --> 00:28:38,120
Speaker 1: about laying out the holes?

460
00:28:40,200 --> 00:28:45,280
Speaker 2: You know? For me, it's more about laying out the circulation.

461
00:28:45,480 --> 00:28:48,240
Speaker 2: The rooting, if you will. You know, people think about

462
00:28:48,360 --> 00:28:51,560
Speaker 2: rooting and they immediately think about par three, Par four,

463
00:28:51,600 --> 00:28:55,160
Speaker 2: Part five. I would prefer to think about rooting as

464
00:28:55,240 --> 00:29:00,120
Speaker 2: just a thrade, a pathway, if you will, through a landscape.

465
00:29:00,680 --> 00:29:02,960
Speaker 2: You know, how are we going to circulate our way

466
00:29:03,000 --> 00:29:07,360
Speaker 2: around this in a pleasing fashion? And we know that

467
00:29:07,440 --> 00:29:11,200
Speaker 2: along the route of this wonderful walk there are some

468
00:29:11,440 --> 00:29:14,280
Speaker 2: very obvious green and tea sites. But the first thing

469
00:29:14,320 --> 00:29:19,760
Speaker 2: to do is to get this flowing path, if you like,

470
00:29:20,000 --> 00:29:23,600
Speaker 2: around the piece of land. And because without that we

471
00:29:23,720 --> 00:29:26,680
Speaker 2: might fall in love with half a dozen green sites

472
00:29:26,720 --> 00:29:29,560
Speaker 2: but not be able to connect them together. So you

473
00:29:29,640 --> 00:29:31,880
Speaker 2: really need to be able to come up with a

474
00:29:32,080 --> 00:29:36,240
Speaker 2: thread through the site. And then from there, you know, well,

475
00:29:36,320 --> 00:29:38,000
Speaker 2: you know, I know I've got that green or this

476
00:29:38,120 --> 00:29:41,040
Speaker 2: set sees that I really want to get included. That's

477
00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,080
Speaker 2: why the thread goes the way it does. But is

478
00:29:44,120 --> 00:29:47,280
Speaker 2: that green site apart three or a part five? You know,

479
00:29:47,480 --> 00:29:50,520
Speaker 2: that's going to figure itself out as you start to

480
00:29:50,600 --> 00:29:55,360
Speaker 2: add flesh onto that skeleton other routing, and so that's

481
00:29:55,360 --> 00:29:57,959
Speaker 2: what we end up doing. And to be honest, working

482
00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:01,040
Speaker 2: with Mike, he's so in tune with that process that

483
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:05,600
Speaker 2: even now after having built six holes in shaped another six,

484
00:30:06,680 --> 00:30:10,680
Speaker 2: there are individual holes on that thread of a layout

485
00:30:11,040 --> 00:30:13,560
Speaker 2: that we still don't fully know are going to be

486
00:30:14,280 --> 00:30:16,720
Speaker 2: what we initially thought there are par fours that might

487
00:30:16,960 --> 00:30:20,000
Speaker 2: might end up with par five and vice versa, because

488
00:30:20,040 --> 00:30:23,840
Speaker 2: we still haven't quite decided what the best sequence will

489
00:30:23,880 --> 00:30:26,959
Speaker 2: be where we're still making those little adjustments. And I

490
00:30:26,960 --> 00:30:30,480
Speaker 2: can I know for a fact that that's exactly the

491
00:30:30,480 --> 00:30:33,680
Speaker 2: way that core cren Shall work, and I'm sure Tom

492
00:30:33,720 --> 00:30:36,000
Speaker 2: don't work the same way, and a few others that

493
00:30:36,120 --> 00:30:40,240
Speaker 2: they're constantly looking for improvement in their design all the

494
00:30:40,320 --> 00:30:44,360
Speaker 2: way until the design is truly built. They're willing to

495
00:30:44,480 --> 00:30:47,520
Speaker 2: change things right up to the last minute. And I

496
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:51,640
Speaker 2: guess that's where the core crux of change comes. When

497
00:30:51,640 --> 00:30:55,240
Speaker 2: you're working on projects that are more defined, when you're

498
00:30:55,280 --> 00:30:59,160
Speaker 2: doing mass engineering projects and housing developments, you know that

499
00:30:59,280 --> 00:31:03,760
Speaker 2: your ability to work on the fly gets reduced and reduced.

500
00:31:03,760 --> 00:31:07,760
Speaker 2: I mean, we try hard to maintain as much flexibility

501
00:31:07,800 --> 00:31:11,560
Speaker 2: as we can, but as the projects get more complex,

502
00:31:12,280 --> 00:31:17,080
Speaker 2: engineering wise, cost wise, your ability to do things on

503
00:31:17,120 --> 00:31:18,200
Speaker 2: the fly reduces.

504
00:31:18,520 --> 00:31:21,640
Speaker 1: So with the design process, what are some of your

505
00:31:21,720 --> 00:31:24,120
Speaker 1: favorite and least favorite aspects of it?

506
00:31:27,680 --> 00:31:31,960
Speaker 2: The most fun part of it is the shaping. You know,

507
00:31:32,000 --> 00:31:36,920
Speaker 2: when you're taking the bones of whatever drawings were done

508
00:31:36,920 --> 00:31:39,680
Speaker 2: and you're actually putting them down in the dirt for

509
00:31:39,720 --> 00:31:44,760
Speaker 2: the first time in their rawest form, there's no drainage irrigation,

510
00:31:44,800 --> 00:31:48,280
Speaker 2: and yet there's all you've really done is clearance and

511
00:31:48,320 --> 00:31:52,000
Speaker 2: you're roughing it in with big dozers. That's probably the

512
00:31:52,040 --> 00:31:57,360
Speaker 2: most fun because it's highly creative and there's no such

513
00:31:57,440 --> 00:32:01,240
Speaker 2: thing as as as wrong. There's there's a lot of

514
00:32:02,840 --> 00:32:04,960
Speaker 2: things that you might want to do differently, or things

515
00:32:04,960 --> 00:32:06,920
Speaker 2: that you might want to add in that are challenging,

516
00:32:07,000 --> 00:32:09,600
Speaker 2: but there's nothing wrong at that point. Where when it

517
00:32:09,640 --> 00:32:12,320
Speaker 2: gets down to draine and irrigation and graph and things

518
00:32:12,320 --> 00:32:16,080
Speaker 2: that you know becomes more technical and again you're less

519
00:32:16,120 --> 00:32:20,760
Speaker 2: able to change at those points. The mass shaping operation

520
00:32:20,920 --> 00:32:25,480
Speaker 2: is where the most creativity and the most changes can happen.

521
00:32:26,680 --> 00:32:30,360
Speaker 1: That that shaping area is kind of where you know

522
00:32:30,440 --> 00:32:33,440
Speaker 1: this you can make it look natural with that with

523
00:32:33,520 --> 00:32:36,560
Speaker 1: it being man made or correct with the right kind

524
00:32:36,600 --> 00:32:40,080
Speaker 1: of ter All right, yeah, you.

525
00:32:40,080 --> 00:32:43,280
Speaker 2: Can, and you can. You can do all. There are

526
00:32:43,400 --> 00:32:48,800
Speaker 2: so many tricks to that that are very difficult that

527
00:32:48,800 --> 00:32:54,440
Speaker 2: that's where the real skill lays is that a relationship

528
00:32:54,480 --> 00:32:58,480
Speaker 2: between the design guys, the shaping guys, even down into

529
00:32:58,520 --> 00:33:04,880
Speaker 2: the maintenance guys to make that shaping speak to the player,

530
00:33:05,480 --> 00:33:08,240
Speaker 2: so that they feel something, so that they get that

531
00:33:08,440 --> 00:33:13,880
Speaker 2: sense of whatever it is you're after, excitement, trepidation, thrill,

532
00:33:14,880 --> 00:33:19,440
Speaker 2: hopefully all of it, memorability. It all comes at that.

533
00:33:19,440 --> 00:33:23,200
Speaker 2: That's the core stage right there, that nothing else before

534
00:33:23,320 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 2: or after can make such a massive difference.

535
00:33:27,160 --> 00:33:31,960
Speaker 1: So, and what's the aspect of your job that you'd

536
00:33:31,960 --> 00:33:34,520
Speaker 1: be happy if you never had to do again? Not

537
00:33:34,560 --> 00:33:35,800
Speaker 1: saying you dislike it, but.

538
00:33:40,600 --> 00:33:45,160
Speaker 2: That's challenging. I love all of it? Which part do

539
00:33:45,200 --> 00:33:52,080
Speaker 2: I like the least? The administration part is not that

540
00:33:52,160 --> 00:33:55,560
Speaker 2: much fun. I try and have people really really good

541
00:33:55,560 --> 00:33:57,280
Speaker 2: at doing that stuff so I don't have to do

542
00:33:57,320 --> 00:34:02,680
Speaker 2: a whole lot of it because that stuff is challenging.

543
00:34:03,120 --> 00:34:07,280
Speaker 2: And in the world we live in there's lots of bureaucracy, yes,

544
00:34:08,239 --> 00:34:14,920
Speaker 2: twip requirements, USHA requirements, contractor licensed requirements, insurance requirements, on

545
00:34:15,120 --> 00:34:16,440
Speaker 2: and on and on and on.

546
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:23,440
Speaker 1: So with you being kind of of the minimalist school

547
00:34:23,480 --> 00:34:28,040
Speaker 1: of design and natural you know design, how do you

548
00:34:28,200 --> 00:34:34,160
Speaker 1: view a place like Shadow Creek in Nevada, where everything

549
00:34:34,280 --> 00:34:36,840
Speaker 1: is manufactured and you know it gets a claim for

550
00:34:37,040 --> 00:34:40,520
Speaker 1: how much earth they moved, and the incredibleness of how

551
00:34:40,680 --> 00:34:43,760
Speaker 1: lush it is, how do you view courses like that

552
00:34:44,000 --> 00:34:48,120
Speaker 1: when you compare them to say, Bandon Dunes, I.

553
00:34:49,880 --> 00:34:53,680
Speaker 2: There are two different things, you know, they're different. Genres No.

554
00:34:54,600 --> 00:34:59,160
Speaker 2: When you say minimalist, you know, I think sometimes that

555
00:34:59,239 --> 00:35:02,799
Speaker 2: does at service to what we're really doing. I mean,

556
00:35:04,520 --> 00:35:07,920
Speaker 2: how much minimalism is there. Sometimes there's probably less than

557
00:35:07,960 --> 00:35:11,919
Speaker 2: you think. But when we're done those that you would

558
00:35:11,960 --> 00:35:14,879
Speaker 2: put in that camp, you would think that we did

559
00:35:15,000 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 2: almost nothing. Where it's very difficult for Tom Fazio to

560
00:35:18,520 --> 00:35:20,680
Speaker 2: try and make you think he did very little. When

561
00:35:20,719 --> 00:35:22,839
Speaker 2: you drive in the gates at Shadow Creek and you're

562
00:35:22,880 --> 00:35:25,560
Speaker 2: out in the flat Navada desert and then you find

563
00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:29,240
Speaker 2: yourselves in yourself in the foothill put over the rockies.

564
00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,719
Speaker 2: I've played Shadow Creek and I thought it was absolutely incredible.

565
00:35:34,760 --> 00:35:39,680
Speaker 2: I mean, an absolutely incredible example of the skill set

566
00:35:39,840 --> 00:35:45,239
Speaker 2: that exists in the golf business. I mean, it's unbelievable.

567
00:35:46,680 --> 00:35:50,520
Speaker 2: You can get into all sorts of debates about whether

568
00:35:50,560 --> 00:35:52,719
Speaker 2: that whether someone likes it or not, or whether it's

569
00:35:52,760 --> 00:35:59,520
Speaker 2: sustainable or not. But I don't think any golfer would

570
00:35:59,560 --> 00:36:02,439
Speaker 2: ever play Shadow Creek and say, well, I just thought

571
00:36:02,440 --> 00:36:04,920
Speaker 2: that was crap, you know, I thought it was terrible.

572
00:36:04,960 --> 00:36:07,160
Speaker 2: I think they don't play it and say that was

573
00:36:07,400 --> 00:36:10,359
Speaker 2: that's incredible. It's not for me. I want to play

574
00:36:10,360 --> 00:36:15,480
Speaker 2: something that's real like that. But I played it and

575
00:36:15,520 --> 00:36:18,520
Speaker 2: thought it was wonderful, and I'd play again tomorrow, especially

576
00:36:18,560 --> 00:36:19,279
Speaker 2: it's snowing here.

577
00:36:21,239 --> 00:36:26,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So you know, in terms of your influences, who

578
00:36:26,600 --> 00:36:30,560
Speaker 1: are some architects of you know, the Golden Age and

579
00:36:30,760 --> 00:36:34,560
Speaker 1: past and even present that you really look to kind

580
00:36:34,560 --> 00:36:36,880
Speaker 1: of as some of your influences.

581
00:36:38,520 --> 00:36:41,960
Speaker 4: Well, I get tired of reading how my peers are

582
00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:48,359
Speaker 4: influenced by the Golden Age architects, because the Golden Age

583
00:36:48,480 --> 00:36:49,880
Speaker 4: architects were.

584
00:36:49,719 --> 00:36:54,640
Speaker 2: The guys that came after the architects that influenced me.

585
00:36:55,160 --> 00:36:57,399
Speaker 2: Because none of those guys, or very few of them,

586
00:36:57,400 --> 00:37:00,960
Speaker 2: ever worked in the United Kingdom. So my childhood was

587
00:37:01,000 --> 00:37:04,360
Speaker 2: spent around courses done by old Tom Morris and James

588
00:37:04,360 --> 00:37:09,000
Speaker 2: Braid and Colt Varden and Taylor and you know all

589
00:37:09,000 --> 00:37:12,600
Speaker 2: that kind of stuff. You know, it wasn't McKenzie or McDonald.

590
00:37:13,880 --> 00:37:19,720
Speaker 2: So those courses have obviously influenced me in my early

591
00:37:20,040 --> 00:37:22,920
Speaker 2: or middle career if you like, now that I live

592
00:37:22,920 --> 00:37:26,160
Speaker 2: in the US, But my early influences were not those

593
00:37:26,239 --> 00:37:30,160
Speaker 2: They were you know, mostly Old Tom Morris and James Braid.

594
00:37:30,200 --> 00:37:32,360
Speaker 2: Those were the courses I hung out on on Eagles

595
00:37:32,880 --> 00:37:35,920
Speaker 2: and the old Macrahanish course on the west coast of

596
00:37:35,920 --> 00:37:41,680
Speaker 2: Scotland turn Braid Braid again, those are the courses I

597
00:37:41,760 --> 00:37:44,080
Speaker 2: hung out on, and they fit in the model of

598
00:37:44,120 --> 00:37:48,600
Speaker 2: what came after very well. They didn't move much dirt,

599
00:37:48,640 --> 00:37:52,040
Speaker 2: they worked on great sites and they put a premium

600
00:37:52,120 --> 00:37:54,920
Speaker 2: on golf course architecture strategy.

601
00:37:56,920 --> 00:37:59,719
Speaker 1: Well, it's interesting because you know, a lot of the

602
00:37:59,760 --> 00:38:03,200
Speaker 1: great you know, the Mackenzie's and the you know, Donald

603
00:38:03,239 --> 00:38:08,960
Speaker 1: Ross's and the cb McDonald's, learned from old Tom Morris.

604
00:38:09,320 --> 00:38:12,600
Speaker 1: So you growing up and playing brave courses and old

605
00:38:12,600 --> 00:38:14,919
Speaker 1: Tom Morris is kind of like going through the same

606
00:38:15,040 --> 00:38:17,000
Speaker 1: education they did back in their day.

607
00:38:18,040 --> 00:38:20,880
Speaker 2: I would like to think. So that would be good. So,

608
00:38:21,200 --> 00:38:27,160
Speaker 2: and currently we live in an absolutely fantastic time. I

609
00:38:27,200 --> 00:38:31,879
Speaker 2: wonder if you know, the past generation of designers could

610
00:38:31,880 --> 00:38:34,800
Speaker 2: truly have said the same thing in the eighties and

611
00:38:34,880 --> 00:38:37,600
Speaker 2: nineties compared to what we live in today. You know,

612
00:38:37,760 --> 00:38:42,480
Speaker 2: since the mid nineties, you know, we live in a

613
00:38:42,560 --> 00:38:46,920
Speaker 2: time where golf courses have become golf courses again, a

614
00:38:47,000 --> 00:38:59,040
Speaker 2: premium on walkability, naturalism, shop making strategy, raw beauty, simplicity

615
00:38:59,120 --> 00:39:04,239
Speaker 2: in the grassing, sustainability. You know, these things all exist today.

616
00:39:04,239 --> 00:39:08,480
Speaker 2: It didn't exist in the late eighties, early nineties. They

617
00:39:08,520 --> 00:39:12,359
Speaker 2: were trumped up gardens. You know, it was all waterfalls

618
00:39:12,400 --> 00:39:17,200
Speaker 2: and bluegrass and you know, there were things that looked

619
00:39:17,200 --> 00:39:21,719
Speaker 2: pretty on a plan to sail real estate by the billions. Now,

620
00:39:22,080 --> 00:39:25,479
Speaker 2: so many golf courses have been built for golf's sake,

621
00:39:27,320 --> 00:39:31,240
Speaker 2: and that's a great thing. You know that my peers,

622
00:39:31,360 --> 00:39:36,720
Speaker 2: my competitors today are the strongest group, I would argue

623
00:39:37,160 --> 00:39:39,960
Speaker 2: since the Golden Age.

624
00:39:40,320 --> 00:39:44,000
Speaker 1: So if you were building a course and you couldn't

625
00:39:44,280 --> 00:39:48,560
Speaker 1: pick yourself to do the project, who would you pick?

626
00:39:49,640 --> 00:39:53,880
Speaker 1: And then who? And then also name one you know,

627
00:39:54,160 --> 00:39:57,520
Speaker 1: kind of up and coming young architect that nobody, you know,

628
00:39:57,600 --> 00:39:58,719
Speaker 1: we may never have heard of.

629
00:40:02,560 --> 00:40:07,640
Speaker 2: Well, that's a tough one. If I couldn't pick me,

630
00:40:09,719 --> 00:40:12,040
Speaker 2: I think a lot of it is. You know, you'd

631
00:40:12,080 --> 00:40:15,080
Speaker 2: have to see the reaction of that particular designer. You know,

632
00:40:15,120 --> 00:40:17,680
Speaker 2: you'd bring them out to your site and you'd see

633
00:40:18,239 --> 00:40:20,400
Speaker 2: how they reacted, you know, and that's going to be

634
00:40:20,440 --> 00:40:25,239
Speaker 2: a product of their experience and their current position in

635
00:40:25,800 --> 00:40:29,880
Speaker 2: the world, in their career. You know, if they're super

636
00:40:29,880 --> 00:40:32,359
Speaker 2: hot and super busy and there is a site that

637
00:40:32,400 --> 00:40:35,520
Speaker 2: they like but don't love, that that vibe is going

638
00:40:35,600 --> 00:40:39,040
Speaker 2: to come off. And yet the opposite would be true.

639
00:40:39,360 --> 00:40:42,760
Speaker 2: You know, they're full of passion and not that busy

640
00:40:42,800 --> 00:40:46,400
Speaker 2: and desperate to pour every ounce of their heart and

641
00:40:46,440 --> 00:40:49,399
Speaker 2: soul into something. You know that ViBe's going to come off.

642
00:40:50,520 --> 00:40:53,600
Speaker 2: Who would I pick if I couldn't pick me, Well,

643
00:40:54,560 --> 00:40:57,080
Speaker 2: I hate to be further biased. I'd pick one of

644
00:40:57,080 --> 00:40:59,160
Speaker 2: the two guys that has been working with me for

645
00:40:59,200 --> 00:41:02,319
Speaker 2: the last ten years, because one day they will be

646
00:41:02,719 --> 00:41:06,560
Speaker 2: the guys out there doing it and I'll be sitting

647
00:41:06,560 --> 00:41:09,680
Speaker 2: in my armchair and at fifty later this year, that

648
00:41:09,800 --> 00:41:12,960
Speaker 2: might not be you know, that's not forever. That's ten

649
00:41:13,040 --> 00:41:17,880
Speaker 2: years away, twenty years away, and that probably exists for

650
00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,520
Speaker 2: a few of those guys. You know, whether it's Tom

651
00:41:20,600 --> 00:41:25,600
Speaker 2: Doak's collaborators over the last twenty years or Bill Kurr's collaborators.

652
00:41:25,360 --> 00:41:30,160
Speaker 2: The next crop of enthusiastic young designers is right there.

653
00:41:30,200 --> 00:41:31,399
Speaker 2: You just don't know their names yet.

654
00:41:32,719 --> 00:41:36,080
Speaker 1: Yeah, definitely, one of your guys, Casey has been helping

655
00:41:36,160 --> 00:41:40,000
Speaker 1: us out with our ass that ask an architect series

656
00:41:40,080 --> 00:41:42,399
Speaker 1: and just seems like a really bright guy.

657
00:41:44,280 --> 00:41:47,480
Speaker 2: Yeah. Well, Nick Sean, who's also been with me for

658
00:41:47,520 --> 00:41:49,560
Speaker 2: ten years, he did he and I did all the

659
00:41:49,640 --> 00:41:52,680
Speaker 2: rooting work at Sand Valley, And it was Nick and

660
00:41:52,719 --> 00:41:55,719
Speaker 2: I that were the two guys that did all the

661
00:41:55,760 --> 00:41:58,040
Speaker 2: work to get to that bake off that Mike ran,

662
00:41:58,560 --> 00:42:01,400
Speaker 2: and then once we got to instruction, Casey has been

663
00:42:01,440 --> 00:42:04,319
Speaker 2: the guy on the ground taking that initial vision and

664
00:42:04,360 --> 00:42:09,360
Speaker 2: making it a reality. So it's a team effort. Although

665
00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:13,040
Speaker 2: I get to play the band leader, I'm certainly not

666
00:42:13,080 --> 00:42:14,560
Speaker 2: playing all the instruments on my own.

667
00:42:15,600 --> 00:42:18,879
Speaker 1: So we talked with Keith reb who does a lot

668
00:42:18,920 --> 00:42:22,759
Speaker 1: of shaping for Core and Crenshaw, and he he said that,

669
00:42:22,960 --> 00:42:25,440
Speaker 1: you know, those guys have a pretty hands off approach

670
00:42:25,600 --> 00:42:28,359
Speaker 1: when it comes to their associates, where you know, if

671
00:42:28,400 --> 00:42:31,279
Speaker 1: he sees something at the site and he's on the

672
00:42:31,320 --> 00:42:34,239
Speaker 1: dozer shaping it, they let him kind of just rip

673
00:42:34,320 --> 00:42:37,359
Speaker 1: and say, you know, have your freedoms. Are you kind

674
00:42:37,360 --> 00:42:39,440
Speaker 1: of that same way with a little bit of hands

675
00:42:39,440 --> 00:42:41,440
Speaker 1: off and you know, trusting your people.

676
00:42:44,719 --> 00:42:48,279
Speaker 2: I don't think so. I think we're more hands on.

677
00:42:48,840 --> 00:42:52,719
Speaker 2: You know, I think that from a shaping perspective, we

678
00:42:52,840 --> 00:42:57,359
Speaker 2: certainly want shapers that are willing to collaborate with us

679
00:42:57,600 --> 00:43:03,840
Speaker 2: and be involved in the process. But I don't think

680
00:43:04,080 --> 00:43:07,920
Speaker 2: very often we're saying to our shaping guys, just go

681
00:43:07,960 --> 00:43:10,960
Speaker 2: ahead and give me something, where that's not usually how

682
00:43:11,000 --> 00:43:16,960
Speaker 2: it's working. We're usually giving them some kind of speer

683
00:43:18,360 --> 00:43:21,880
Speaker 2: on where to start, and then we're manipulating that process

684
00:43:21,920 --> 00:43:25,440
Speaker 2: all the way through to the end. You know, A

685
00:43:25,480 --> 00:43:29,239
Speaker 2: big difference would be when Bill and Ben, you know,

686
00:43:30,080 --> 00:43:33,719
Speaker 2: their shapers are really a key core part of their

687
00:43:33,719 --> 00:43:41,120
Speaker 2: design staff. They effectively have their design staff driving the dosers.

688
00:43:44,719 --> 00:43:50,160
Speaker 2: Slightly differently, our design staff are in the field managing

689
00:43:50,200 --> 00:43:54,680
Speaker 2: those dozers, and those shapers are I don't want to

690
00:43:55,239 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: downplay that they're into it. It's huge, but we're not

691
00:43:59,680 --> 00:44:04,080
Speaker 2: that saying Okay, you know, go ahead and build me

692
00:44:04,160 --> 00:44:06,360
Speaker 2: something you think is cool and I'll be back next week.

693
00:44:06,719 --> 00:44:09,879
Speaker 2: We're usually saying, you know, cut that down and push

694
00:44:09,960 --> 00:44:11,959
Speaker 2: that over there. I'll be back in an hour or two.

695
00:44:13,520 --> 00:44:18,799
Speaker 1: So something I'm curious about with the architecture industry is,

696
00:44:19,000 --> 00:44:21,440
Speaker 1: you know, so I think you probably can speak to

697
00:44:21,480 --> 00:44:24,400
Speaker 1: this as you're young and you're hungry and you finally

698
00:44:24,440 --> 00:44:27,279
Speaker 1: get that first job and say yours was, you know,

699
00:44:27,320 --> 00:44:29,920
Speaker 1: your big job was banned in dunes, and then all

700
00:44:29,920 --> 00:44:32,160
Speaker 1: of a sudden, you're, you know, the hottest name in

701
00:44:32,320 --> 00:44:35,239
Speaker 1: architecture and you've got more jobs flying at you than

702
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:37,840
Speaker 1: you can handle it. Like, how tough is that to

703
00:44:37,960 --> 00:44:38,560
Speaker 1: adjust to?

704
00:44:40,640 --> 00:44:44,000
Speaker 2: Very very tough, very tough. I look back at, you know,

705
00:44:44,120 --> 00:44:48,839
Speaker 2: my early thirties and realize, you know, how tough that

706
00:44:48,920 --> 00:44:51,040
Speaker 2: really was, although I didn't see it at the time.

707
00:44:51,440 --> 00:44:54,280
Speaker 2: You know, in any other industry, I would have had

708
00:44:54,400 --> 00:44:57,640
Speaker 2: a support network to help work through that, to make

709
00:44:57,680 --> 00:45:00,879
Speaker 2: the best choices, to be surrounded by the best, most

710
00:45:00,920 --> 00:45:05,120
Speaker 2: supportive people. But because it's not really an industry, because

711
00:45:05,120 --> 00:45:09,719
Speaker 2: it's you know, like a hobby gone mad. When that happens,

712
00:45:09,960 --> 00:45:11,480
Speaker 2: you know, you're kind of on your own. At least

713
00:45:11,520 --> 00:45:14,400
Speaker 2: I was, you know, I was an immigrant into the

714
00:45:14,480 --> 00:45:20,400
Speaker 2: US with no you know, support group, and suddenly, you know,

715
00:45:20,440 --> 00:45:22,600
Speaker 2: I have this success on my hands and I'm being

716
00:45:22,640 --> 00:45:27,200
Speaker 2: offered projects and you you don't. Really it was a

717
00:45:27,280 --> 00:45:30,200
Speaker 2: difficult thing to looking back at. It was one of

718
00:45:30,200 --> 00:45:34,680
Speaker 2: those certainly a first world problem, but you know, what

719
00:45:34,960 --> 00:45:37,480
Speaker 2: to do? What would be the best choices be? Who

720
00:45:37,520 --> 00:45:40,200
Speaker 2: am I talking to? Are these people good or bad?

721
00:45:40,400 --> 00:45:44,360
Speaker 2: You know, and I don't think I'd changed much, but

722
00:45:44,400 --> 00:45:46,960
Speaker 2: I've changed a few things.

723
00:45:47,560 --> 00:45:49,520
Speaker 1: What it would be a couple of things that you've

724
00:45:49,600 --> 00:45:51,879
Speaker 1: changed would have changed.

725
00:45:53,880 --> 00:46:00,440
Speaker 2: I you know, the the quantity of work is regularly

726
00:46:00,520 --> 00:46:04,160
Speaker 2: related to the quality. And when you're when you're too busy,

727
00:46:04,719 --> 00:46:07,759
Speaker 2: you know, you spread yourself too thin, and that has

728
00:46:07,800 --> 00:46:13,560
Speaker 2: its obvious drawbacks. And at times, through my twenty years

729
00:46:13,600 --> 00:46:16,560
Speaker 2: since bending GM's, you know, there are times when you're

730
00:46:16,640 --> 00:46:19,800
Speaker 2: just too thin on the ground. And in hindsight, it

731
00:46:19,840 --> 00:46:21,879
Speaker 2: would have been it would be easy to say, well,

732
00:46:21,920 --> 00:46:25,480
Speaker 2: I'll do this and this and not that that. And

733
00:46:26,160 --> 00:46:29,319
Speaker 2: you know, I'm hopeful that with twenty years of experience,

734
00:46:29,800 --> 00:46:32,880
Speaker 2: hopefully at the very highest level, I can give that

735
00:46:33,000 --> 00:46:38,200
Speaker 2: experience to my small crew and past that experience and

736
00:46:38,320 --> 00:46:41,560
Speaker 2: knowledge on so that they're vector equipped as they move

737
00:46:41,640 --> 00:46:44,240
Speaker 2: forward in their careers.

738
00:46:44,040 --> 00:46:46,880
Speaker 1: It's it's interesting. I think a lot of what you

739
00:46:46,920 --> 00:46:50,040
Speaker 1: said goes to like writing. I see, where when I'm

740
00:46:50,080 --> 00:46:52,759
Speaker 1: trying to write a ton of content, you know, it

741
00:46:53,320 --> 00:46:57,560
Speaker 1: doesn't get as good. You know, if I take my

742
00:46:57,680 --> 00:47:00,000
Speaker 1: time and really put you know, a lot of time

743
00:47:00,080 --> 00:47:02,399
Speaker 1: I'm into a piece, it's always going to turn out

744
00:47:02,440 --> 00:47:04,919
Speaker 1: better than when I'm trying to write three things at once.

745
00:47:05,520 --> 00:47:08,440
Speaker 1: And I think it's true with almost anything in life.

746
00:47:10,560 --> 00:47:13,239
Speaker 2: It is, and the only way you can deal with

747
00:47:13,280 --> 00:47:18,279
Speaker 2: it is some sort of self limiting mechanisms. And if

748
00:47:18,320 --> 00:47:21,800
Speaker 2: you can put some self limiting mechanisms in, then things

749
00:47:21,840 --> 00:47:25,600
Speaker 2: get easier better. You know. I at one point I

750
00:47:25,600 --> 00:47:27,600
Speaker 2: had two offices, one in the US and one in

751
00:47:27,680 --> 00:47:31,040
Speaker 2: the UP. That was not a self limiting mechanism. That

752
00:47:31,320 --> 00:47:37,600
Speaker 2: just made for more and you know, I deemed success

753
00:47:37,760 --> 00:47:42,759
Speaker 2: as quantity, not quality, and so I did that for

754
00:47:42,760 --> 00:47:45,040
Speaker 2: a few years and then closed the office that we

755
00:47:45,120 --> 00:47:48,440
Speaker 2: had in London, and that made life a lot easier.

756
00:47:48,560 --> 00:47:52,040
Speaker 2: And when I was doing less, spending more time on things.

757
00:47:55,560 --> 00:47:58,680
Speaker 2: I have a daughter, and I when she was young,

758
00:47:58,760 --> 00:48:00,960
Speaker 2: I made a commitment to to be home as much

759
00:48:01,000 --> 00:48:04,239
Speaker 2: as I could, certainly on a sort of every other

760
00:48:04,280 --> 00:48:06,319
Speaker 2: week end basis, at least I would be at all.

761
00:48:06,840 --> 00:48:09,920
Speaker 2: So that sort of limited my ability to go chase

762
00:48:10,000 --> 00:48:13,960
Speaker 2: jobs in China or you know, far flung places in

763
00:48:13,960 --> 00:48:18,160
Speaker 2: the world. So that became a self limiting mechanism. So

764
00:48:18,680 --> 00:48:21,440
Speaker 2: by putting a few of these in my own way,

765
00:48:22,600 --> 00:48:25,319
Speaker 2: they started to hone down the number of things that

766
00:48:25,360 --> 00:48:27,799
Speaker 2: I could take on and so by doing so, the

767
00:48:27,880 --> 00:48:28,840
Speaker 2: quality increases.

768
00:48:29,760 --> 00:48:32,480
Speaker 1: Yeah, what would you say, is you know, I'm curious

769
00:48:32,520 --> 00:48:35,600
Speaker 1: that is the ideal number of projects that you'd have

770
00:48:36,120 --> 00:48:36,919
Speaker 1: in a given year.

771
00:48:38,440 --> 00:48:40,319
Speaker 2: Well, my answer to that question is always the same,

772
00:48:40,360 --> 00:48:44,760
Speaker 2: that you need at least one, otherwise it gets really hungry.

773
00:48:45,040 --> 00:48:49,319
Speaker 2: So you need one. I would say probably three. You know,

774
00:48:49,520 --> 00:48:52,359
Speaker 2: if you've got three projects all at the same time,

775
00:48:53,000 --> 00:48:55,840
Speaker 2: chances are one of them is just starting, one of

776
00:48:55,880 --> 00:48:58,160
Speaker 2: them's midway through, one of them is coming to an end,

777
00:48:58,200 --> 00:49:00,880
Speaker 2: and you've got your eyeball on the next one to

778
00:49:00,960 --> 00:49:04,200
Speaker 2: add to the chain. So I would say of three

779
00:49:04,360 --> 00:49:07,479
Speaker 2: is the maximum capacity that at least my firm could

780
00:49:07,520 --> 00:49:12,160
Speaker 2: cope with that are active in construction at any one time.

781
00:49:12,239 --> 00:49:15,120
Speaker 2: We could be working on a dozen that are on

782
00:49:15,200 --> 00:49:18,280
Speaker 2: the drawing boards because half of them will never happen anyway.

783
00:49:19,200 --> 00:49:22,000
Speaker 2: But actually in construction, I would say three is the

784
00:49:22,560 --> 00:49:25,520
Speaker 2: is the perfect number that you could get to, you

785
00:49:25,560 --> 00:49:28,399
Speaker 2: could work on, and you could deal with. Right now,

786
00:49:28,440 --> 00:49:31,279
Speaker 2: we have two major projects in construction at the same

787
00:49:31,320 --> 00:49:34,680
Speaker 2: time and a third that only opened last September. So

788
00:49:35,160 --> 00:49:38,000
Speaker 2: for most of twenty sixteen we had three projects in

789
00:49:38,080 --> 00:49:40,920
Speaker 2: construction all at the same time, and for me to

790
00:49:41,000 --> 00:49:45,680
Speaker 2: spend significant time on all three. You can imagine you're

791
00:49:45,719 --> 00:49:47,480
Speaker 2: not home as much as you'd like to be. You're

792
00:49:47,520 --> 00:49:50,319
Speaker 2: on the road a lot, and so you add another

793
00:49:50,360 --> 00:49:53,040
Speaker 2: one in you're never at home at another one on

794
00:49:53,080 --> 00:49:55,160
Speaker 2: top of that, now you're never at the fourth job.

795
00:49:56,800 --> 00:49:59,680
Speaker 1: Yeah, I can imagine if you took some international ones,

796
00:49:59,680 --> 00:50:02,160
Speaker 1: then you god the travel problems too. I mean that's

797
00:50:02,160 --> 00:50:04,160
Speaker 1: almost like a job and a half in itself.

798
00:50:05,560 --> 00:50:10,759
Speaker 2: Absolutely, So you know that that is those other and

799
00:50:10,920 --> 00:50:13,439
Speaker 2: maybe that's an answer to an earlier question that you had.

800
00:50:13,480 --> 00:50:15,200
Speaker 2: You know, what's the thing that you like the least,

801
00:50:15,200 --> 00:50:17,720
Speaker 2: and I said administration. You know, maybe it's the travel.

802
00:50:18,320 --> 00:50:20,880
Speaker 2: The travel is a is a bear that can be

803
00:50:20,960 --> 00:50:24,640
Speaker 2: really really hard. You're away from your family and the

804
00:50:24,680 --> 00:50:27,360
Speaker 2: ones you love, and you're you're on the road. You know,

805
00:50:27,400 --> 00:50:31,080
Speaker 2: I when I have done a lot of international travel,

806
00:50:31,120 --> 00:50:34,080
Speaker 2: you know, my friends in town and say yeah, yeah, yeah,

807
00:50:34,120 --> 00:50:36,520
Speaker 2: but it's okay for you. You know, you're crying, you know,

808
00:50:36,640 --> 00:50:39,920
Speaker 2: business class on a flatbed. And I'll remind them that

809
00:50:41,000 --> 00:50:43,680
Speaker 2: the very next night when I'm climbing into United to

810
00:50:43,840 --> 00:50:47,239
Speaker 2: see you know three a next to a stranger on

811
00:50:47,320 --> 00:50:51,080
Speaker 2: a hard bed that's eighteen inches wide. They'll be getting

812
00:50:51,080 --> 00:50:53,799
Speaker 2: into their super king with their fluffy down.

813
00:50:54,600 --> 00:51:00,319
Speaker 1: Yeah, that's very, very true. So you touched on one

814
00:51:00,360 --> 00:51:05,160
Speaker 1: of your other projects, Rolling Hills in LA, which just

815
00:51:05,200 --> 00:51:08,279
Speaker 1: got some big news with USC announcing they're going to

816
00:51:08,360 --> 00:51:12,760
Speaker 1: host the PAC twelve Championships there next year. I'm curious

817
00:51:12,800 --> 00:51:16,000
Speaker 1: to hear a little bit about that project. You know,

818
00:51:16,080 --> 00:51:20,080
Speaker 1: it's a pretty unknown course when you're talking big names

819
00:51:20,120 --> 00:51:22,200
Speaker 1: in LA and and kind of what you saw with

820
00:51:22,239 --> 00:51:22,920
Speaker 1: that project.

821
00:51:25,280 --> 00:51:30,960
Speaker 2: It's my sleeper that Rolling Hills Country Club was first

822
00:51:31,719 --> 00:51:35,400
Speaker 2: created in the the sixties, I believe, and it was

823
00:51:35,440 --> 00:51:37,759
Speaker 2: a small parcel of land that they built like a

824
00:51:37,840 --> 00:51:41,200
Speaker 2: nine hole pitching put on, and then the local members

825
00:51:41,840 --> 00:51:44,239
Speaker 2: built another piece of land and another piece, and over

826
00:51:44,239 --> 00:51:46,600
Speaker 2: the course of thirty or forty years, they took a

827
00:51:46,760 --> 00:51:49,600
Speaker 2: very small site, less than one hundred acres, and they

828
00:51:49,680 --> 00:51:54,200
Speaker 2: inked eighteen holes out of it, but only just narrow fairways,

829
00:51:54,640 --> 00:51:58,960
Speaker 2: peep terrain, no real design to speak of, you know,

830
00:51:59,480 --> 00:52:05,400
Speaker 2: cobalt together over thirty years and a very affluent and

831
00:52:05,719 --> 00:52:09,520
Speaker 2: enthusiastic membership in pallasburd He's one of the wealthiest parts

832
00:52:09,560 --> 00:52:12,880
Speaker 2: of LA. But they really didn't have they had a

833
00:52:12,920 --> 00:52:15,880
Speaker 2: golf club, but not a golf course, if you know

834
00:52:15,880 --> 00:52:19,840
Speaker 2: what I mean. What happened was some of the land

835
00:52:19,880 --> 00:52:25,040
Speaker 2: that they had acquired, they really had leased, was from

836
00:52:25,480 --> 00:52:29,920
Speaker 2: a bounding sand quarry to their north, the Chandler Sandpit,

837
00:52:30,520 --> 00:52:33,839
Speaker 2: and the Chandler Sandpit is known throughout la as one

838
00:52:33,880 --> 00:52:37,400
Speaker 2: of the best sources of sand to build golf greens.

839
00:52:38,120 --> 00:52:41,480
Speaker 2: So they mined out the Chandler sand Quarry for eighty

840
00:52:41,480 --> 00:52:45,240
Speaker 2: odd years, and they filled it up with rubble, and

841
00:52:45,280 --> 00:52:47,520
Speaker 2: then they crushed the concrete and sold that, and then

842
00:52:47,560 --> 00:52:49,360
Speaker 2: he dug some more sand, and this went on for

843
00:52:49,440 --> 00:52:54,239
Speaker 2: eighty odd years until they excavated all of the commercially

844
00:52:54,360 --> 00:52:57,480
Speaker 2: viable sand out of it, and the Chandler's family were

845
00:52:57,719 --> 00:53:00,120
Speaker 2: left scratching their heads wondering what to do with this

846
00:53:00,239 --> 00:53:03,840
Speaker 2: big hole in the ground in Palacebury's. And over the

847
00:53:03,880 --> 00:53:07,960
Speaker 2: last twenty years, believe it or not, they've collaborated with

848
00:53:08,120 --> 00:53:11,080
Speaker 2: the club and they came to an agreement where the

849
00:53:11,120 --> 00:53:13,719
Speaker 2: club would put in all the land they owned, the

850
00:53:13,840 --> 00:53:16,560
Speaker 2: quarry would put in all the land they owned, and

851
00:53:16,840 --> 00:53:22,160
Speaker 2: a developer would be sought to develop the combined land parcel,

852
00:53:22,239 --> 00:53:26,080
Speaker 2: which is three hundred and fifty odd acres, and so

853
00:53:26,160 --> 00:53:28,520
Speaker 2: to pay for the development of a new golf course,

854
00:53:29,640 --> 00:53:32,800
Speaker 2: one hundred and ten home sites were ear marked within

855
00:53:32,880 --> 00:53:36,840
Speaker 2: that three hundred and fifty acres in one core, pretty

856
00:53:36,880 --> 00:53:40,320
Speaker 2: much in one big block. And the new golf course

857
00:53:41,800 --> 00:53:46,920
Speaker 2: pretty well starts within the old quarry and wanders out

858
00:53:47,040 --> 00:53:49,880
Speaker 2: through where the original golf course was and then finishes

859
00:53:50,000 --> 00:53:55,200
Speaker 2: back into where the quarry is today. And the quarry

860
00:53:55,280 --> 00:53:57,920
Speaker 2: is still a sand pit, so all of the sand

861
00:53:58,480 --> 00:54:03,279
Speaker 2: that was remnants of the boring operation we harvested and

862
00:54:03,480 --> 00:54:06,040
Speaker 2: used to build a golf course. So many of the

863
00:54:06,080 --> 00:54:09,040
Speaker 2: holes are sitting on top of sand anyway, because they're

864
00:54:09,080 --> 00:54:11,200
Speaker 2: in the quarry and the rest of the golf course.

865
00:54:11,239 --> 00:54:14,680
Speaker 2: We dug out hundreds of thousands of tons of sand

866
00:54:14,760 --> 00:54:17,560
Speaker 2: and we cake the whole place in sand before we

867
00:54:17,680 --> 00:54:21,400
Speaker 2: finish the shaping. So by Hooker by Crook we have

868
00:54:21,440 --> 00:54:26,880
Speaker 2: a sand golf course with acres of open sand areas

869
00:54:26,920 --> 00:54:30,680
Speaker 2: and dried arroyos and our barancas as they would be

870
00:54:30,760 --> 00:54:37,080
Speaker 2: down there, all with bermuda grass fairways and giant grass

871
00:54:37,160 --> 00:54:40,200
Speaker 2: greens and green complexes that are all in band graphs.

872
00:54:40,560 --> 00:54:44,920
Speaker 2: So the courses acres and acres of grass very wide

873
00:54:45,400 --> 00:54:48,719
Speaker 2: hopefully very strategic, not overly long. I mean, I think

874
00:54:48,719 --> 00:54:50,799
Speaker 2: we're going to be north of seven thousand, but not

875
00:54:50,800 --> 00:54:56,799
Speaker 2: by much, but a lot of green light holes that

876
00:54:56,920 --> 00:55:01,560
Speaker 2: these young buck college players can go bowman after knowing

877
00:55:01,600 --> 00:55:03,919
Speaker 2: that they can make birdies and eagles all day long,

878
00:55:04,760 --> 00:55:09,319
Speaker 2: or maybe they'll make they'll trip themselves up. We'll see

879
00:55:09,360 --> 00:55:10,760
Speaker 2: what I can leave in their path.

880
00:55:12,000 --> 00:55:15,400
Speaker 1: So with that, you know, how is it with dealing

881
00:55:15,440 --> 00:55:18,000
Speaker 1: with the kind of changing game and the ball that

882
00:55:18,080 --> 00:55:20,919
Speaker 1: keeps going further? I mean I play competitively, and these

883
00:55:20,960 --> 00:55:24,680
Speaker 1: college kids hit it just I mean seemingly forever. I

884
00:55:24,719 --> 00:55:26,719
Speaker 1: played with a fourteen year old that hit it over

885
00:55:26,760 --> 00:55:28,120
Speaker 1: three hundred yards the other day.

886
00:55:30,200 --> 00:55:34,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, the ball is certainly the limiting factor at the

887
00:55:35,880 --> 00:55:40,480
Speaker 2: at that elite level. The ball is an issue for

888
00:55:40,520 --> 00:55:44,239
Speaker 2: the average golfer, not really an issue. And when I

889
00:55:44,400 --> 00:55:46,759
Speaker 2: have these conversations with people in the golf media and

890
00:55:46,800 --> 00:55:49,239
Speaker 2: they're going about the golf ball and the equipment's making

891
00:55:49,239 --> 00:55:51,640
Speaker 2: the game too easy, you know, you have to kind

892
00:55:51,640 --> 00:55:54,279
Speaker 2: of remind them that the average golfer isn't any better

893
00:55:54,320 --> 00:55:56,600
Speaker 2: than the average golfer was ten years or twenty years

894
00:55:56,640 --> 00:55:59,520
Speaker 2: or thirty years ago. And so anything we can do

895
00:55:59,600 --> 00:56:02,800
Speaker 2: to make the average golfer have more fun through equipment

896
00:56:02,880 --> 00:56:05,800
Speaker 2: or ball, I'm all for as far as the average

897
00:56:05,840 --> 00:56:09,000
Speaker 2: golfer is concerned. I'm all about what they did in

898
00:56:09,040 --> 00:56:12,160
Speaker 2: tennis or what they did for skiing, Whether you can

899
00:56:12,239 --> 00:56:15,400
Speaker 2: do so that the average golfer has more fun playing

900
00:56:15,440 --> 00:56:19,040
Speaker 2: the sport we all love, I'm totally for it. That's

901
00:56:19,080 --> 00:56:21,880
Speaker 2: a totally different question to what do you do at

902
00:56:21,880 --> 00:56:25,040
Speaker 2: the other end of the scale with the professional golfers

903
00:56:25,040 --> 00:56:27,680
Speaker 2: and elite college golfers, where they can hit the ball

904
00:56:27,840 --> 00:56:31,600
Speaker 2: so far that the strategy strategy of the golf course

905
00:56:31,719 --> 00:56:37,480
Speaker 2: is nullified. I mean, surely that is completely contrary to

906
00:56:37,560 --> 00:56:40,400
Speaker 2: what the game's about. If the college player can hit

907
00:56:40,440 --> 00:56:43,799
Speaker 2: it that far and now the golf course has no

908
00:56:44,000 --> 00:56:46,760
Speaker 2: natural defense, you know, if there's nothing left and he's

909
00:56:47,160 --> 00:56:50,800
Speaker 2: putting it to eighty yards on every hole and gap

910
00:56:50,840 --> 00:56:55,040
Speaker 2: wedging it in. But what was the point Now it

911
00:56:55,080 --> 00:56:56,800
Speaker 2: truly is just a plucking contest.

912
00:57:00,320 --> 00:57:03,560
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. I mean, I go

913
00:57:03,719 --> 00:57:07,080
Speaker 1: both ways, because there's still you know, as inn say

914
00:57:07,080 --> 00:57:10,440
Speaker 1: you're an amateur, a high level amateur player, but not

915
00:57:10,760 --> 00:57:13,759
Speaker 1: a professional. It's just there's just a it's a It's

916
00:57:13,760 --> 00:57:16,800
Speaker 1: a very difficult topic because you know, at what point

917
00:57:16,880 --> 00:57:19,440
Speaker 1: do you start playing with the professional ball? At what

918
00:57:19,480 --> 00:57:21,480
Speaker 1: point do you play with the regular ball? You know,

919
00:57:21,600 --> 00:57:22,960
Speaker 1: that's the tricky part of it.

920
00:57:25,480 --> 00:57:29,800
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean it's tricky, but there's lots of tricky things.

921
00:57:29,840 --> 00:57:32,640
Speaker 2: What do you do? I mean, how do you handle it? Eventually?

922
00:57:32,680 --> 00:57:36,600
Speaker 2: You have to do something? Yeah, so doing nothing, I

923
00:57:36,600 --> 00:57:39,360
Speaker 2: don't think if we can agree that doing nothing is

924
00:57:39,400 --> 00:57:41,680
Speaker 2: not an option. Now you just have to figure out

925
00:57:41,800 --> 00:57:44,400
Speaker 2: the something, however tricky it might be. There has to

926
00:57:44,440 --> 00:57:45,040
Speaker 2: be a something.

927
00:57:45,760 --> 00:57:48,080
Speaker 1: I agree with that something needs I don't.

928
00:57:47,960 --> 00:57:50,440
Speaker 2: Know what the something is. You know. My thought has

929
00:57:50,480 --> 00:57:53,040
Speaker 2: always been that Augusta would be a This would be

930
00:57:53,080 --> 00:57:57,480
Speaker 2: a wonderful leading point by the Committee of Augusta National

931
00:57:57,840 --> 00:58:01,880
Speaker 2: That the Arnie and the USGA don't have the money

932
00:58:01,920 --> 00:58:07,000
Speaker 2: to defend themselves against a ruling against the ball. But

933
00:58:08,080 --> 00:58:11,960
Speaker 2: Augusta don't have to answer to anyone invitation only tournament.

934
00:58:11,960 --> 00:58:13,560
Speaker 2: If you want to come and play, this is the

935
00:58:13,600 --> 00:58:15,240
Speaker 2: ball we'll be playing. If you don't want to come

936
00:58:15,280 --> 00:58:18,520
Speaker 2: and play, or highly welcome to turn down the invite,

937
00:58:18,920 --> 00:58:20,400
Speaker 2: don't expect again next year.

938
00:58:21,360 --> 00:58:26,200
Speaker 1: That's that would be one organization that can do it

939
00:58:26,280 --> 00:58:29,800
Speaker 1: and definitely would enforce it and people I think would

940
00:58:29,800 --> 00:58:33,760
Speaker 1: fall in line for with us. Butting up here close

941
00:58:33,800 --> 00:58:35,600
Speaker 1: to an hour, I wanted to get to some of

942
00:58:35,640 --> 00:58:41,840
Speaker 1: our Twitter questions. Our first one comes from Simon and

943
00:58:41,920 --> 00:58:45,800
Speaker 1: he would like to know what you'd do differently if

944
00:58:45,840 --> 00:58:48,480
Speaker 1: you had your time again at the Castle Course in

945
00:58:48,520 --> 00:58:53,520
Speaker 1: St Andrews.

946
00:58:54,600 --> 00:58:57,040
Speaker 2: You know, I would came for douting the putting surfaces.

947
00:58:57,120 --> 00:59:00,120
Speaker 2: You know, the putting surfaces were just too reject to

948
00:59:00,160 --> 00:59:03,200
Speaker 2: have too many slopes on the greens that pushed a

949
00:59:03,240 --> 00:59:07,960
Speaker 2: ball away rather than allowed it to stay or even gathered.

950
00:59:08,800 --> 00:59:14,320
Speaker 2: So certainly dialing back the greens you know by twenty

951
00:59:14,360 --> 00:59:19,720
Speaker 2: five percent, wouldn't have hurt my feelings. And then the

952
00:59:19,800 --> 00:59:22,840
Speaker 2: area around the greens, the ability to miss with your

953
00:59:22,840 --> 00:59:27,320
Speaker 2: approach shot pin high and still have a recovery shot

954
00:59:28,920 --> 00:59:31,560
Speaker 2: was something that wasn't as in the forefront of my

955
00:59:31,680 --> 00:59:36,760
Speaker 2: mind as it is today. Those two things alone would

956
00:59:36,800 --> 00:59:39,840
Speaker 2: in r because the greens are being mellowed, make a

957
00:59:39,920 --> 00:59:43,600
Speaker 2: huge difference. What I think is lost is that there

958
00:59:43,640 --> 00:59:45,560
Speaker 2: were so many things that I think my team and

959
00:59:45,600 --> 00:59:48,480
Speaker 2: I got right. I mean, that site was a potato field.

960
00:59:49,600 --> 00:59:53,320
Speaker 2: There was devoid of any interest whatsoever other than the

961
00:59:53,360 --> 00:59:55,800
Speaker 2: fact that it had a cool view back into Saint Andrew's.

962
00:59:56,480 --> 01:00:00,400
Speaker 2: And I think that over time, the you know, I

963
01:00:00,600 --> 01:00:04,720
Speaker 2: pushed the edge of the envelope to the edge and

964
01:00:04,800 --> 01:00:09,200
Speaker 2: beyond with the Castle course, knowing that history would allow

965
01:00:09,240 --> 01:00:16,280
Speaker 2: the course to be adjusted over generations to achieve its

966
01:00:16,320 --> 01:00:23,240
Speaker 2: final potential. Whereas if I built something that was mundane,

967
01:00:23,800 --> 01:00:28,880
Speaker 2: mediocrity could never be increased. Nobody would ever take mediocrity

968
01:00:28,920 --> 01:00:31,200
Speaker 2: and improve it. Where they could take something that I

969
01:00:31,320 --> 01:00:35,640
Speaker 2: made where the volume was too high and they could

970
01:00:35,760 --> 01:00:38,840
Speaker 2: dial it back, they couldn't dial it up. So you know,

971
01:00:38,880 --> 01:00:44,920
Speaker 2: I've spent many many hours musing that very question, and

972
01:00:44,960 --> 01:00:49,320
Speaker 2: I'll say that I'll go to bed, my final resting place,

973
01:00:49,360 --> 01:00:53,920
Speaker 2: happy knowing that I pushed harder than I might have done,

974
01:00:54,280 --> 01:00:56,840
Speaker 2: but the end result, long after my passing, will be

975
01:00:56,840 --> 01:00:58,600
Speaker 2: the better for it. Yeah.

976
01:00:58,680 --> 01:01:00,800
Speaker 1: I think that's a great point. When you look at

977
01:01:00,800 --> 01:01:03,880
Speaker 1: a lot of the great designs of you know, the

978
01:01:03,960 --> 01:01:07,760
Speaker 1: Golden Age, they were the boldest courses of that era.

979
01:01:08,200 --> 01:01:11,240
Speaker 1: I mean, you look at when McDonald started to use

980
01:01:11,280 --> 01:01:15,400
Speaker 1: the Britz design they called it, you know, his folly.

981
01:01:16,320 --> 01:01:20,040
Speaker 1: You look at Mackenzie's design of Cyprus, he was scared

982
01:01:20,080 --> 01:01:22,320
Speaker 1: that it was going to be too difficult, too bold,

983
01:01:22,720 --> 01:01:25,360
Speaker 1: but the natural beauty is what saved it.

984
01:01:28,000 --> 01:01:31,640
Speaker 2: I don't think that I you know, yeah, I agree

985
01:01:31,640 --> 01:01:35,320
Speaker 2: with you. You know, the boldest of designs, over time

986
01:01:36,560 --> 01:01:40,800
Speaker 2: have won out and nobody's going to be talking about mediocrity.

987
01:01:40,880 --> 01:01:45,000
Speaker 2: And I knew going into Scenandrews that you know, you're

988
01:01:45,200 --> 01:01:49,000
Speaker 2: you're going into you know, the Lion's Day, and everyone

989
01:01:49,040 --> 01:01:51,760
Speaker 2: has an opinion. It didn't matter what I did. If

990
01:01:51,760 --> 01:01:54,560
Speaker 2: I did something that appeased to most people, they'd say,

991
01:01:54,880 --> 01:01:58,280
Speaker 2: you know, such a waste of a great site. It

992
01:01:58,320 --> 01:02:01,040
Speaker 2: could have been so much more. And if I pushed

993
01:02:01,080 --> 01:02:04,240
Speaker 2: too hard, i'd get what I get now. You know, well,

994
01:02:04,280 --> 01:02:06,280
Speaker 2: you know you just used every toy in the box,

995
01:02:06,320 --> 01:02:08,919
Speaker 2: and you know, push too hard and build something it's

996
01:02:08,960 --> 01:02:11,720
Speaker 2: just too much. I'd rather history painted it that way

997
01:02:11,760 --> 01:02:15,400
Speaker 2: than the opposite. I hate, hate, hate to be called

998
01:02:15,440 --> 01:02:17,240
Speaker 2: media over Yeah.

999
01:02:17,440 --> 01:02:21,520
Speaker 1: I mean everybody's in your business too. Everybody's a second

1000
01:02:21,560 --> 01:02:23,960
Speaker 1: guessing critic, like none of them were out there and

1001
01:02:24,560 --> 01:02:28,800
Speaker 1: you know, spending the hours on site. So I completely

1002
01:02:28,880 --> 01:02:32,960
Speaker 1: understand what you're saying. And I think bold designs, you know,

1003
01:02:33,080 --> 01:02:36,640
Speaker 1: over time, will you know prove to be better than

1004
01:02:36,800 --> 01:02:40,440
Speaker 1: what they originally were thought of. So let's move on.

1005
01:02:40,680 --> 01:02:43,600
Speaker 1: Robbie wants to know when when you're building a course,

1006
01:02:43,640 --> 01:02:47,280
Speaker 1: what's the hardest part of the course to manufacture and

1007
01:02:47,360 --> 01:02:51,280
Speaker 1: have look natural, whether it's bunkers or mounds.

1008
01:02:50,440 --> 01:02:58,200
Speaker 2: That's easy. Pease, tease peace. Who wants to hit off

1009
01:02:58,200 --> 01:02:58,560
Speaker 2: a sport?

1010
01:02:58,600 --> 01:03:01,240
Speaker 1: It's not flat, that's true.

1011
01:03:02,640 --> 01:03:07,360
Speaker 2: So how do I build something that's very minimalist and natural?

1012
01:03:07,520 --> 01:03:11,160
Speaker 2: And oh, by the way, it has to be flat. So,

1013
01:03:11,440 --> 01:03:14,680
Speaker 2: by far the ease the hardest thing to shape and

1014
01:03:14,800 --> 01:03:17,120
Speaker 2: make look good on any golf course or the tees.

1015
01:03:17,960 --> 01:03:21,240
Speaker 2: It's a good question and an easy answer. Bring more

1016
01:03:21,240 --> 01:03:21,600
Speaker 2: of those on.

1017
01:03:22,120 --> 01:03:31,560
Speaker 1: Yeah. So, comparison of experience at Bandon versus Sand Valley, that's.

1018
01:03:31,360 --> 01:03:36,160
Speaker 2: Another good one. Another question that I've thought about myself.

1019
01:03:36,920 --> 01:03:41,920
Speaker 2: When I did band It in my twenties, I knew

1020
01:03:42,040 --> 01:03:44,800
Speaker 2: what I knew through instinct. I didn't know why I

1021
01:03:44,840 --> 01:03:48,800
Speaker 2: knew it. I just knew that golf courses needed to

1022
01:03:48,840 --> 01:03:52,840
Speaker 2: be white because it's windy. I knew that bunkers needed

1023
01:03:52,880 --> 01:03:55,920
Speaker 2: to be deep because the wind blows the sand out

1024
01:03:55,920 --> 01:03:58,480
Speaker 2: of them. This was all born out of our childhood

1025
01:03:58,520 --> 01:04:03,560
Speaker 2: in Scotland that I just took what I knew and

1026
01:04:03,840 --> 01:04:06,480
Speaker 2: replicated it on a different site. But I didn't really

1027
01:04:06,520 --> 01:04:08,680
Speaker 2: know why I was doing it. I didn't. I couldn't

1028
01:04:09,280 --> 01:04:12,680
Speaker 2: intellectualize it. I couldn't deconstruct it and explain it to you.

1029
01:04:12,840 --> 01:04:18,360
Speaker 2: It was all raw instinct and feel. You fast forward

1030
01:04:18,360 --> 01:04:21,400
Speaker 2: twenty years, with twenty years of doing this and to

1031
01:04:21,520 --> 01:04:25,640
Speaker 2: some extent experimenting and trying out different things. Now at

1032
01:04:25,680 --> 01:04:29,800
Speaker 2: San Valley, I think I know I'm twice the age

1033
01:04:29,800 --> 01:04:32,040
Speaker 2: I was when I was building band, and now I

1034
01:04:32,080 --> 01:04:34,480
Speaker 2: have a good idea of why things have to be

1035
01:04:34,520 --> 01:04:37,960
Speaker 2: the way they are. What you know leads to a

1036
01:04:38,000 --> 01:04:41,760
Speaker 2: good end result of what doesn't. So there's I guess

1037
01:04:41,760 --> 01:04:46,840
Speaker 2: experience is the final answer, but the explanations more long winded.

1038
01:04:47,400 --> 01:04:51,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, so one question before we let you get out

1039
01:04:51,440 --> 01:04:53,000
Speaker 1: of here. We don't want to take up too much

1040
01:04:53,040 --> 01:04:56,360
Speaker 1: of your time. If you were going to play five

1041
01:04:56,480 --> 01:05:00,240
Speaker 1: courses the rest of your life, what five courses would

1042
01:05:00,240 --> 01:05:00,480
Speaker 1: they be?

1043
01:05:02,960 --> 01:05:08,200
Speaker 2: And none of them, mind, because that'll make it easier. Okay, Well,

1044
01:05:08,240 --> 01:05:09,720
Speaker 2: the old course at S and Andrews does have to

1045
01:05:09,760 --> 01:05:13,840
Speaker 2: be right up there, because that's just a great course

1046
01:05:13,880 --> 01:05:16,040
Speaker 2: to play. And if I could play with a different

1047
01:05:16,080 --> 01:05:18,520
Speaker 2: group every single day. That would make it even better

1048
01:05:18,640 --> 01:05:21,520
Speaker 2: because the whole world comes to the Old Course at

1049
01:05:21,520 --> 01:05:24,160
Speaker 2: some point, so I would get to meet the entire

1050
01:05:24,240 --> 01:05:27,440
Speaker 2: world and play on a great golf course if I

1051
01:05:27,520 --> 01:05:29,360
Speaker 2: only ever played the Old Course for the rest of

1052
01:05:29,400 --> 01:05:31,520
Speaker 2: the time. But that would be one of my five.

1053
01:05:34,880 --> 01:05:37,600
Speaker 2: I guess Macrahannish where I spent my childhood with my

1054
01:05:37,680 --> 01:05:40,640
Speaker 2: father and my grandfather, and I'm still a member and

1055
01:05:40,720 --> 01:05:44,040
Speaker 2: my family have been members there for seventy odd years,

1056
01:05:44,400 --> 01:05:47,760
Speaker 2: so half its history. So I'd definitely take the Old

1057
01:05:47,800 --> 01:05:50,240
Speaker 2: Course at Macrahannish and put it on my list. So

1058
01:05:50,280 --> 01:05:55,040
Speaker 2: that would be two. If I jumped down to England,

1059
01:05:56,240 --> 01:05:59,160
Speaker 2: it'd probably have to be sun and Dale Old or

1060
01:05:59,200 --> 01:06:01,520
Speaker 2: Saint George's Hit Which one of those two would have pick.

1061
01:06:01,920 --> 01:06:05,320
Speaker 2: That's tricky, you know. I might even pick Some George's

1062
01:06:05,360 --> 01:06:10,240
Speaker 2: Hill over Sunningdale, just because it's even quirkier than Sunningdale.

1063
01:06:11,240 --> 01:06:13,520
Speaker 2: And then if I jump across to the East coast

1064
01:06:13,520 --> 01:06:17,080
Speaker 2: to the US, I'd have to be National because that's

1065
01:06:17,120 --> 01:06:20,920
Speaker 2: another quirky one that's full of whimsy and probably everybody

1066
01:06:20,920 --> 01:06:23,000
Speaker 2: gets to it eventually. It might take a little longer

1067
01:06:23,040 --> 01:06:25,080
Speaker 2: than the old Course, but whoever I missed it, the

1068
01:06:25,080 --> 01:06:27,240
Speaker 2: old course would be playing at the National, so I'd

1069
01:06:27,280 --> 01:06:31,240
Speaker 2: go there, and then coming to the West Coast, well,

1070
01:06:31,240 --> 01:06:33,880
Speaker 2: i'd have to be Cyprus Points. It's easy. That's that

1071
01:06:33,880 --> 01:06:36,920
Speaker 2: would be my five get me tea times at all,

1072
01:06:36,960 --> 01:06:38,800
Speaker 2: five of those for twenty seventeen.

1073
01:06:40,440 --> 01:06:42,920
Speaker 1: I'm gonna try and get mine first, and then i'll

1074
01:06:43,000 --> 01:06:44,600
Speaker 1: let you know. I can bring us second.

1075
01:06:44,640 --> 01:06:46,200
Speaker 2: I could get you. I could get you on about

1076
01:06:46,200 --> 01:06:46,760
Speaker 2: half of those.

1077
01:06:48,080 --> 01:06:51,880
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's I think those are high on every golfer's

1078
01:06:51,920 --> 01:06:54,720
Speaker 1: bucket list, so you know, and then then it's the

1079
01:06:54,760 --> 01:06:55,880
Speaker 1: means of getting.

1080
01:06:55,560 --> 01:06:57,840
Speaker 2: There, yeah, and getting on.

1081
01:06:59,000 --> 01:07:02,320
Speaker 1: So hey, David, I really appreciate you coming on and

1082
01:07:02,360 --> 01:07:06,560
Speaker 1: spending over an hour with us, and we're my pleasure

1083
01:07:06,840 --> 01:07:10,480
Speaker 1: excited to you know, keep tabs on the progress of

1084
01:07:10,520 --> 01:07:12,920
Speaker 1: your new projects, and I'm excited to get out and

1085
01:07:12,960 --> 01:07:15,440
Speaker 1: see some of your existing ones this summer.

1086
01:07:16,560 --> 01:07:19,640
Speaker 2: All right, I'll see you at Sand Valley sometime this summer,

1087
01:07:19,720 --> 01:07:21,720
Speaker 2: and you better make it to the West Coast and

1088
01:07:21,760 --> 01:07:24,520
Speaker 2: see band engines and gamble sands at some point.

1089
01:07:24,760 --> 01:07:27,440
Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, they're all on my radar, So let me

1090
01:07:27,480 --> 01:07:29,960
Speaker 1: know when you're up at Sand Valley. You know it's

1091
01:07:30,040 --> 01:07:33,200
Speaker 1: four hours from me, so it's not that bad of

1092
01:07:33,200 --> 01:07:34,880
Speaker 1: a drive. Would love to meet sometime.

1093
01:07:36,000 --> 01:07:38,320
Speaker 2: I'm guessing this summer the chances are there.

1094
01:07:38,760 --> 01:07:42,000
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, all right, well, thanks so much David, and

1095
01:07:42,080 --> 01:07:43,400
Speaker 1: I appreciate it again.

1096
01:07:44,600 --> 01:07:47,560
Speaker 2: No problem, to see you later. Go back bine.