1 00:00:00,120 --> 00:00:04,440 Speaker 1: I think that authenticity can sometimes be an excuse for 2 00:00:04,559 --> 00:00:07,160 Speaker 1: not growing and not changing. I think most people when 3 00:00:07,160 --> 00:00:09,920 Speaker 1: they talk about authenticity, they're talking about their values. How 4 00:00:09,960 --> 00:00:13,040 Speaker 1: do you keep your values intact while continue to grow 5 00:00:13,080 --> 00:00:15,440 Speaker 1: and rediscover and reimagine yourself. 6 00:00:20,520 --> 00:00:23,239 Speaker 2: Heyba fam, I am so happy to introduce you to 7 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 2: my guest today, Sabina Noahz. She is an executive coach, 8 00:00:27,960 --> 00:00:32,160 Speaker 2: has worked at some incredible companies like Microsoft, like Google. 9 00:00:32,440 --> 00:00:36,560 Speaker 2: Not that brand names matter, Okay, it's nice. It's nice 10 00:00:36,560 --> 00:00:39,839 Speaker 2: to know that someone's come from some elite institutions. But 11 00:00:39,920 --> 00:00:42,400 Speaker 2: Sabina has written a book. And you know what, My 12 00:00:42,479 --> 00:00:44,920 Speaker 2: five year old son loves this book. I've had it 13 00:00:44,960 --> 00:00:46,960 Speaker 2: around the house while I've been reading it and he's like, 14 00:00:47,360 --> 00:00:49,880 Speaker 2: you're the boss. Like he's just learning how to read. 15 00:00:51,040 --> 00:00:53,800 Speaker 2: These are some sight words for him. I was like, yeah, baby, 16 00:00:53,840 --> 00:00:55,760 Speaker 2: you know how to say the word boss. But the 17 00:00:55,800 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 2: book is you're the boss, become the manager you want 18 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,360 Speaker 2: to be, and other need being a welcome to Brown Ambition. 19 00:01:03,040 --> 00:01:05,520 Speaker 1: Well, thank you so much, Mandy. And I cannot help 20 00:01:05,640 --> 00:01:09,320 Speaker 1: but notice, since you mentioned visuals, you're in red, I'm 21 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:09,960 Speaker 1: in yellow. 22 00:01:10,480 --> 00:01:13,360 Speaker 2: Are we not a little ketchup? And mustard moment. This 23 00:01:13,440 --> 00:01:18,360 Speaker 2: is like a match made in heat. They are who 24 00:01:18,480 --> 00:01:21,840 Speaker 2: knew there's some there's a reason that those colors are 25 00:01:21,880 --> 00:01:26,160 Speaker 2: so ingrained, you know, in the culture. So yeah, beautiful. 26 00:01:26,240 --> 00:01:29,880 Speaker 2: So talk to me about your path from corporate, because 27 00:01:29,920 --> 00:01:32,959 Speaker 2: I actually have a similar path. I left corporate in 28 00:01:33,000 --> 00:01:35,880 Speaker 2: twenty twenty one and I became a career coach. 29 00:01:36,280 --> 00:01:36,400 Speaker 1: You. 30 00:01:37,120 --> 00:01:39,920 Speaker 2: I don't know when you left corporate, but I have 31 00:01:40,240 --> 00:01:44,039 Speaker 2: loved that transition was unexpected but also really fun for me. 32 00:01:44,080 --> 00:01:46,360 Speaker 2: But I'm curious, what was your path like? Did you 33 00:01:46,400 --> 00:01:49,559 Speaker 2: always know you wanted to step away from that traditional 34 00:01:49,720 --> 00:01:52,400 Speaker 2: like corporate role and then help executives be better at 35 00:01:52,400 --> 00:01:53,160 Speaker 2: their jobs? 36 00:01:53,600 --> 00:01:57,960 Speaker 1: Oh gosh, No, My undergraduate and graduate grease are in 37 00:01:57,960 --> 00:02:02,080 Speaker 1: computer science and electronics and systems engineering. And I started 38 00:02:02,080 --> 00:02:06,960 Speaker 1: my career at Microsoft in software engineering. Oh okay, yeah, 39 00:02:07,040 --> 00:02:09,639 Speaker 1: So I did that, and I managed teams and worked 40 00:02:09,639 --> 00:02:13,680 Speaker 1: on products like Windows and MSN and Internet Explorer and 41 00:02:13,960 --> 00:02:17,280 Speaker 1: a bunch of version zero products that never went anywhere 42 00:02:17,840 --> 00:02:22,799 Speaker 1: for over nine years, and then switched careers into HR 43 00:02:22,880 --> 00:02:27,440 Speaker 1: at Microsoft, where I ran the company's executive development, worked 44 00:02:27,480 --> 00:02:31,359 Speaker 1: with Bill and Steve running succession planning for the company, 45 00:02:31,960 --> 00:02:34,840 Speaker 1: management development for the eleven thousand managers we had and 46 00:02:34,919 --> 00:02:38,160 Speaker 1: so on, so it was a whole different career shift. 47 00:02:38,160 --> 00:02:40,400 Speaker 1: I did that for about six years, and for the 48 00:02:40,480 --> 00:02:43,600 Speaker 1: past twenty years I've been on my own coaching CEOs, 49 00:02:44,840 --> 00:02:51,079 Speaker 1: doing leadership training, large keynotes, writing for Harvard Business Review, Forbes, 50 00:02:51,120 --> 00:02:54,360 Speaker 1: Wall Street Journal, and then of course, most recently, writing 51 00:02:54,360 --> 00:02:54,800 Speaker 1: the book. 52 00:02:55,520 --> 00:02:57,640 Speaker 2: Gosh, it took you that long to write a book, 53 00:02:58,040 --> 00:03:03,600 Speaker 2: this's your first one? Yes, even too busy doing the work, right, Okay, 54 00:03:03,600 --> 00:03:07,880 Speaker 2: that's incredible. Okay, so well you're I mean, you're my 55 00:03:07,960 --> 00:03:11,320 Speaker 2: goals then to have a couple of decades under your 56 00:03:11,360 --> 00:03:14,200 Speaker 2: belt of making it on your own, all right, So 57 00:03:14,240 --> 00:03:16,000 Speaker 2: talk to me about the book. I mean, this book 58 00:03:16,080 --> 00:03:19,880 Speaker 2: is very much I feel like targeting, maybe not CEOs, 59 00:03:20,360 --> 00:03:23,640 Speaker 2: I mean maybe CEOs, but also just like women of color, 60 00:03:23,760 --> 00:03:26,480 Speaker 2: especially who want to be CEOs and want to be 61 00:03:27,000 --> 00:03:28,720 Speaker 2: blowing up that ladder and how to do it in 62 00:03:28,760 --> 00:03:31,520 Speaker 2: a way that they're successful. But also what I've taken 63 00:03:31,560 --> 00:03:34,880 Speaker 2: away is like, you're not sacrificing who you are or 64 00:03:35,000 --> 00:03:37,600 Speaker 2: giving up who your authentic self is along the way. 65 00:03:38,400 --> 00:03:43,200 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, the book has few key things as ways 66 00:03:43,240 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 1: to remember this book is targeted. Mandy to people who 67 00:03:46,240 --> 00:03:51,080 Speaker 1: are already successful, the people who have made it, who 68 00:03:51,440 --> 00:03:54,160 Speaker 1: have a long track record of being right and getting 69 00:03:54,200 --> 00:03:57,240 Speaker 1: promoted on that. And yet there are things that none 70 00:03:57,280 --> 00:04:00,640 Speaker 1: of us knows at every stage of our career. So 71 00:04:00,680 --> 00:04:03,760 Speaker 1: the three things to be aware of one that promotions 72 00:04:03,760 --> 00:04:06,360 Speaker 1: at the riskiest time in your career. Two that it 73 00:04:06,440 --> 00:04:10,480 Speaker 1: is not power but pressure that corrupts you. And three 74 00:04:11,160 --> 00:04:15,520 Speaker 1: that pressure then isolates you from the impact of those 75 00:04:15,560 --> 00:04:18,960 Speaker 1: behaviors that you are showing up with under pressure, because 76 00:04:19,000 --> 00:04:24,800 Speaker 1: nobody will tell you until it's too late. As women 77 00:04:25,000 --> 00:04:28,880 Speaker 1: and women of color, you're likely to receive even less 78 00:04:28,920 --> 00:04:34,640 Speaker 1: feedback when things like this happen, and they have the 79 00:04:34,680 --> 00:04:36,279 Speaker 1: power then to derail your career. 80 00:04:37,040 --> 00:04:39,480 Speaker 2: Maybe I'm reading it through my own lens, but I'm 81 00:04:39,520 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 2: wondering if like a better way to describe the book 82 00:04:41,600 --> 00:04:45,320 Speaker 2: is also maybe how to prevent some of the common 83 00:04:45,360 --> 00:04:48,640 Speaker 2: pitfalls that can happen when you are succeeding. And then 84 00:04:48,839 --> 00:04:51,080 Speaker 2: I want to hear what have you seen happen? You 85 00:04:51,120 --> 00:04:55,120 Speaker 2: say promotions are the most vulnerable or the riskiest parts 86 00:04:55,160 --> 00:04:58,920 Speaker 2: of your career. What have you seen happen to high 87 00:04:58,960 --> 00:05:02,400 Speaker 2: achieving women their careers when they do get that successful stage, 88 00:05:02,440 --> 00:05:04,760 Speaker 2: and then they are, you know, given that opportunity and 89 00:05:04,800 --> 00:05:08,240 Speaker 2: what happens next m M yeah. 90 00:05:08,279 --> 00:05:12,440 Speaker 1: So the tricky part with promotions is that, of course 91 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:16,640 Speaker 1: it's a time for great celebration as well, and once 92 00:05:16,680 --> 00:05:21,200 Speaker 1: the bubblies settle, the very strengths that have gotten you 93 00:05:21,520 --> 00:05:24,240 Speaker 1: to the level at which you're promoted are going to 94 00:05:24,279 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: be seen very differently from the next that are training up. 95 00:05:28,080 --> 00:05:33,039 Speaker 1: They're going to be seen less charitably. For example, you're 96 00:05:33,080 --> 00:05:36,279 Speaker 1: a woman who pays a lot of attention to detail, 97 00:05:36,400 --> 00:05:39,159 Speaker 1: Suddenly you're going to be seen as a micromanager. Let's 98 00:05:39,240 --> 00:05:43,080 Speaker 1: say that for's someone who's very calm under pressure. Now 99 00:05:43,120 --> 00:05:48,120 Speaker 1: your at risk being seen as backing, passion, detached aloof 100 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:52,960 Speaker 1: not interested. On the other hand, let's say you're super passionate. 101 00:05:54,000 --> 00:05:56,840 Speaker 1: Now you're going to be seen as overly emotional, which 102 00:05:56,880 --> 00:06:01,159 Speaker 1: we often get feedback on anyhow, So you haven't changed, 103 00:06:01,920 --> 00:06:06,400 Speaker 1: but your position has changed. With that positional change, people 104 00:06:06,400 --> 00:06:09,159 Speaker 1: are going to view your strengths from a very different lens. 105 00:06:11,240 --> 00:06:13,440 Speaker 1: This was the case for one of my clients who 106 00:06:13,640 --> 00:06:19,080 Speaker 1: was incredibly strategic. She owned meetings not because she went 107 00:06:19,160 --> 00:06:22,800 Speaker 1: in there with guns blazing, but because she watched the landscape. 108 00:06:22,839 --> 00:06:25,920 Speaker 1: She understood what people were looking for and then spoke 109 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:29,880 Speaker 1: up and tailored her messages appropriately so people wanted to 110 00:06:29,920 --> 00:06:33,960 Speaker 1: follow her. And when she got this big promotion, people 111 00:06:34,040 --> 00:06:39,000 Speaker 1: suddenly started thinking of her as manipulative instead of strategic. Oh, 112 00:06:39,040 --> 00:06:41,680 Speaker 1: she's watching which way the winds are blowing, what the 113 00:06:41,720 --> 00:06:45,239 Speaker 1: senior person is saying. She doesn't make a decision until 114 00:06:45,320 --> 00:06:50,839 Speaker 1: she's got it all settled in. She was shocked when 115 00:06:50,839 --> 00:06:54,120 Speaker 1: she got that feedback. When I interviewed people on her 116 00:06:54,160 --> 00:06:57,120 Speaker 1: team about how they perceived working with her, and they 117 00:06:57,120 --> 00:06:59,280 Speaker 1: were talking about how they were not trusting her as 118 00:06:59,360 --> 00:07:02,440 Speaker 1: much because they thought she was manipulative. That was really 119 00:07:02,520 --> 00:07:05,239 Speaker 1: shocking to her because of course, up to this point, 120 00:07:05,279 --> 00:07:08,720 Speaker 1: she had been promoted for that very reason. So then 121 00:07:08,760 --> 00:07:11,240 Speaker 1: we had to work on how do you reduce what 122 00:07:11,280 --> 00:07:14,600 Speaker 1: I call the power gap, the distance between you and 123 00:07:14,640 --> 00:07:18,000 Speaker 1: those who report to you, so they better understand what 124 00:07:18,040 --> 00:07:20,360 Speaker 1: you're doing and what your intentions are. 125 00:07:20,720 --> 00:07:24,000 Speaker 2: Yeah, that really resonates with me because I was, I mean, 126 00:07:24,000 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 2: I guess I was a younger manager. I was a 127 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:28,560 Speaker 2: senior director. I was managing a team of thirty staff 128 00:07:28,560 --> 00:07:31,840 Speaker 2: and like one hundred contractors, and I was unusual in 129 00:07:31,920 --> 00:07:36,040 Speaker 2: that I came to that point through an acquisition. I 130 00:07:36,080 --> 00:07:38,840 Speaker 2: was at a startup where I was like, I think 131 00:07:38,840 --> 00:07:41,000 Speaker 2: I managed two full time staff and then a bunch 132 00:07:41,000 --> 00:07:45,320 Speaker 2: of freelancers and then brought into this bigger company given 133 00:07:45,560 --> 00:07:48,520 Speaker 2: the gift and the privilege to build a team from 134 00:07:48,520 --> 00:07:50,600 Speaker 2: the ground up. And in my mind, I sort of 135 00:07:50,600 --> 00:07:52,640 Speaker 2: saw myself as like, I have an opportunity. I'm a 136 00:07:52,640 --> 00:07:54,560 Speaker 2: woman of color in this position of power, I can 137 00:07:54,600 --> 00:07:56,480 Speaker 2: dictate who gets hired. I'm going to do it the 138 00:07:56,520 --> 00:07:58,480 Speaker 2: way that I would love to see it done, which 139 00:07:58,520 --> 00:08:01,480 Speaker 2: did involve like a I mean, I was very enthusiastic 140 00:08:01,480 --> 00:08:05,680 Speaker 2: about everything, and people saw that as pushy and saw 141 00:08:05,720 --> 00:08:08,120 Speaker 2: it as just calm down, like we're going to get 142 00:08:08,120 --> 00:08:10,840 Speaker 2: this done. And I was like, I was also I 143 00:08:10,880 --> 00:08:13,040 Speaker 2: have like New Yorker energy, even though I'm from the 144 00:08:13,160 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 2: South and my parent company was in Charlotte, North Carolina. 145 00:08:17,240 --> 00:08:20,280 Speaker 2: And they were a bit like what like, let's do 146 00:08:20,360 --> 00:08:22,040 Speaker 2: small talk first, and I'm like, no, I need this 147 00:08:22,040 --> 00:08:26,160 Speaker 2: this da da dada, and yeah, I mean it was frustrating. Also, 148 00:08:26,240 --> 00:08:29,600 Speaker 2: it's really hard to feel misunderstood. And I also felt 149 00:08:29,600 --> 00:08:32,040 Speaker 2: like there's a lot of like discourse now about how 150 00:08:32,160 --> 00:08:34,080 Speaker 2: we shouldn't have to change the way we are. We 151 00:08:34,120 --> 00:08:36,640 Speaker 2: shouldn't have to care what people think. We should be 152 00:08:36,640 --> 00:08:38,319 Speaker 2: able to say things the way that we want them 153 00:08:38,360 --> 00:08:41,240 Speaker 2: and get stuff done. But in effect, it doesn't always 154 00:08:41,440 --> 00:08:43,800 Speaker 2: work best as a leader as a team because it 155 00:08:43,880 --> 00:08:45,760 Speaker 2: kind of does matter how people feel about you. 156 00:08:46,520 --> 00:08:51,200 Speaker 1: I mean, business, business is personal. It starts there. If 157 00:08:51,240 --> 00:08:52,959 Speaker 1: you could be in a room by yourself and get 158 00:08:53,000 --> 00:08:55,920 Speaker 1: stuff done and have pizza slid under the door at 159 00:08:55,960 --> 00:08:59,679 Speaker 1: meal times, then sure, don't worry about anything else. And 160 00:09:00,160 --> 00:09:03,360 Speaker 1: this leads to the point about authenticity. For me, authenticity 161 00:09:03,440 --> 00:09:06,400 Speaker 1: is not singular. It does not exist in singular form. 162 00:09:06,960 --> 00:09:09,559 Speaker 1: I mean, if you think about it, are you exactly 163 00:09:09,600 --> 00:09:11,880 Speaker 1: the same way with your five year old son as 164 00:09:11,920 --> 00:09:15,000 Speaker 1: you are in this podcast, as you are with your 165 00:09:15,000 --> 00:09:18,160 Speaker 1: best besties, when you go out for an evening, as 166 00:09:18,200 --> 00:09:20,640 Speaker 1: you are with your partner, as you are if you 167 00:09:20,679 --> 00:09:25,000 Speaker 1: were speaking on a big stage. They're all you, they're 168 00:09:25,040 --> 00:09:29,160 Speaker 1: all authentically you, but they're different expressions of you. And 169 00:09:29,200 --> 00:09:33,520 Speaker 1: if we were truly wedded to a singular, rigid definition 170 00:09:33,559 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: of authenticity, then it's not just your son. You would 171 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:39,400 Speaker 1: be like your five year old son, and maybe you'd 172 00:09:39,400 --> 00:09:42,080 Speaker 1: be throwing a temper, tantrum on the floor, anytime you 173 00:09:42,120 --> 00:09:42,880 Speaker 1: didn't get your way. 174 00:09:43,120 --> 00:09:48,120 Speaker 2: Oh my children, never ever, of course tantrums. That's bad parenting. 175 00:09:48,600 --> 00:09:52,640 Speaker 1: Yes, yes, there you go. But yeah, I think that 176 00:09:52,840 --> 00:09:58,000 Speaker 1: authenticity can sometimes be an excuse for not growing and 177 00:09:58,120 --> 00:10:03,000 Speaker 1: not changing. So it's about how do you keep growing 178 00:10:03,160 --> 00:10:06,360 Speaker 1: whilst I think most people when they talk about authenticity, 179 00:10:06,360 --> 00:10:08,440 Speaker 1: they're talking about their values. How do you keep your 180 00:10:08,559 --> 00:10:13,360 Speaker 1: values intact while continue to grow and rediscover and reimagine yourself. 181 00:10:13,840 --> 00:10:16,160 Speaker 2: That's such a good point. One of the best things 182 00:10:16,160 --> 00:10:18,319 Speaker 2: I did at that point because I was so frustrated 183 00:10:18,360 --> 00:10:24,120 Speaker 2: and I was really feeling challenged, and I asked for 184 00:10:24,280 --> 00:10:27,600 Speaker 2: a professional development fund to do I think I did. 185 00:10:27,600 --> 00:10:31,440 Speaker 2: It was a week long leadership and development training and 186 00:10:31,720 --> 00:10:34,400 Speaker 2: my company, you know, paid for it. And it was 187 00:10:34,760 --> 00:10:37,480 Speaker 2: the first time in my career that I because I 188 00:10:37,520 --> 00:10:40,719 Speaker 2: was at a startup right there wasn't budgets for management 189 00:10:40,880 --> 00:10:43,520 Speaker 2: training and things like that. And then I'm being thrust 190 00:10:43,559 --> 00:10:46,640 Speaker 2: into like a much bigger institution and it was great 191 00:10:46,679 --> 00:10:50,920 Speaker 2: to have that time just to devote to understanding how I, authentically, 192 00:10:50,960 --> 00:10:54,679 Speaker 2: like in my core self, approach things and then how 193 00:10:54,840 --> 00:10:56,800 Speaker 2: I can approach them as a leader. And how those 194 00:10:56,840 --> 00:10:58,719 Speaker 2: can be. It can still be authentic, but I need 195 00:10:58,720 --> 00:11:02,480 Speaker 2: to have a different style as a absolutely, And that 196 00:11:02,720 --> 00:11:05,160 Speaker 2: was it really humbled me, and it opened me up 197 00:11:05,200 --> 00:11:07,800 Speaker 2: to the idea that I still had lots to learn 198 00:11:07,880 --> 00:11:10,720 Speaker 2: and that I needed to be more coachable. I was 199 00:11:10,760 --> 00:11:13,400 Speaker 2: resistant to that feedback because just like you said, I 200 00:11:13,440 --> 00:11:16,840 Speaker 2: thought that being changement, that I was wrong and I 201 00:11:16,880 --> 00:11:20,000 Speaker 2: wasn't good at my job, right, you know, right. 202 00:11:20,240 --> 00:11:23,560 Speaker 1: Right right? Yeah? And good for you that you then 203 00:11:24,679 --> 00:11:28,480 Speaker 1: went into that learner mode and opened yourself up for that. 204 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,200 Speaker 1: It goes to a point I talk about in the book, 205 00:11:31,600 --> 00:11:35,400 Speaker 1: which is around the tool called multiple meanings, that it's 206 00:11:35,440 --> 00:11:39,200 Speaker 1: never one story. There are multiple ways to look at 207 00:11:39,280 --> 00:11:42,920 Speaker 1: the story, you know. So in your case, one way 208 00:11:42,920 --> 00:11:45,560 Speaker 1: to look at it is, yeah, this means I'm a failure, 209 00:11:45,760 --> 00:11:47,320 Speaker 1: or this means I'm wrong, they're right. 210 00:11:47,559 --> 00:11:49,600 Speaker 2: Or I thought I was going to get fired every day. 211 00:11:50,120 --> 00:11:53,720 Speaker 1: Yeah, exactly, exactly. And you know what, if we dream big, 212 00:11:53,880 --> 00:11:56,320 Speaker 1: if we play big, of course we might get fired 213 00:11:56,960 --> 00:12:01,240 Speaker 1: or we might feel that way. That's a sign that 214 00:12:01,280 --> 00:12:02,360 Speaker 1: you're doing something right. 215 00:12:02,440 --> 00:12:04,600 Speaker 2: Feeling like you're going to get fired is a sign 216 00:12:04,679 --> 00:12:07,560 Speaker 2: that you're doing something right. Man, I was doing something right. 217 00:12:07,640 --> 00:12:15,160 Speaker 2: For a lot of it really, like so much of 218 00:12:15,200 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 2: it is about mindset and looking back. I mean I 219 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:22,480 Speaker 2: thought I was so mature and like so advanced, but 220 00:12:22,559 --> 00:12:25,920 Speaker 2: now looking back, I'm like, oh girl, just relax, like, 221 00:12:26,960 --> 00:12:29,840 Speaker 2: just give yourself some grace to you made a mistake, 222 00:12:30,160 --> 00:12:32,840 Speaker 2: you know. Yeah, I'm curious. So one of the I 223 00:12:32,840 --> 00:12:35,079 Speaker 2: mean you mentioned the multiple meetings, what I wanted to 224 00:12:35,120 --> 00:12:38,080 Speaker 2: talk about was the idea of pressure because you said 225 00:12:38,120 --> 00:12:42,040 Speaker 2: that power doesn't corrupt pressure does. What is the what 226 00:12:42,080 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: are you trying to tackle there, Like in terms of 227 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:45,840 Speaker 2: that idea that when you get more powerful, you're going 228 00:12:45,880 --> 00:12:48,120 Speaker 2: to be corrupted, And then like, how does pressure play 229 00:12:48,120 --> 00:12:48,480 Speaker 2: a role? 230 00:12:48,640 --> 00:12:51,280 Speaker 1: Yeah, yeah, it's not power that corrupts you. You're not 231 00:12:51,320 --> 00:12:54,320 Speaker 1: getting corrupted when you get more power. You're getting corrupted 232 00:12:54,320 --> 00:12:56,840 Speaker 1: when you're under more pressure. And think about this. Just 233 00:12:56,880 --> 00:12:59,800 Speaker 1: about everybody I know says they're under tremendous amounts of pressure. 234 00:13:00,080 --> 00:13:02,800 Speaker 1: Everything that's going on in the world, in the country, 235 00:13:02,960 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: in your organization, in your life, in your job, there's 236 00:13:06,160 --> 00:13:08,480 Speaker 1: a lot of pressure. Have you ever done something when 237 00:13:08,520 --> 00:13:10,880 Speaker 1: you're under pressure that you're not proud of? In hindsight, 238 00:13:11,160 --> 00:13:13,920 Speaker 1: just about everybody we flip our finger in traffic. When 239 00:13:14,000 --> 00:13:16,320 Speaker 1: we haven't budgeted enough time and we're running late and 240 00:13:16,360 --> 00:13:20,720 Speaker 1: somebody cuts us off, we raise our voice, maybe louder 241 00:13:20,720 --> 00:13:24,920 Speaker 1: than we should have. Sometimes, when we are losing patience, 242 00:13:25,960 --> 00:13:30,079 Speaker 1: we provide feedback in ways that may not be as 243 00:13:30,360 --> 00:13:33,600 Speaker 1: kind and compassionate to other people. I know for me, 244 00:13:34,240 --> 00:13:37,960 Speaker 1: when I came back from parental leave after my first kid, 245 00:13:38,880 --> 00:13:41,720 Speaker 1: and the first day after leave, I'm putting on lipstick 246 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:44,760 Speaker 1: for the first time. My assistant calls me, where are you? 247 00:13:44,840 --> 00:13:47,840 Speaker 1: Steve expects you in thirty minutes. That's Steve Bomber, the 248 00:13:47,840 --> 00:13:51,160 Speaker 1: CEO of the company, and she reads me the memo 249 00:13:51,280 --> 00:13:54,080 Speaker 1: as I'm hitting warp speed getting to work. And that 250 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:56,719 Speaker 1: set the tone for the pressure that I had at 251 00:13:56,760 --> 00:14:00,600 Speaker 1: work with an infant at home, no sleep, no peace, 252 00:14:00,679 --> 00:14:03,440 Speaker 1: no patience, and thinking to myself, I don't have time 253 00:14:03,440 --> 00:14:06,560 Speaker 1: to give detailed instructions to people, let alone repeat them. 254 00:14:06,840 --> 00:14:09,160 Speaker 1: There'll be time for empathy later on. They're big boys 255 00:14:09,200 --> 00:14:12,640 Speaker 1: and girls. Let's go, let's work, Let's get this done 256 00:14:12,720 --> 00:14:16,480 Speaker 1: like you like, Let's just go and execute. I started 257 00:14:16,520 --> 00:14:19,760 Speaker 1: micromanaging because I was worried myself or my team would 258 00:14:19,800 --> 00:14:25,880 Speaker 1: look incompetent to senior executives. And the scary part is 259 00:14:26,120 --> 00:14:29,200 Speaker 1: I thought, like you were saying, Mandy, that I was 260 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:34,200 Speaker 1: doing a great job, I was being efficient, when in reality, 261 00:14:34,560 --> 00:14:36,600 Speaker 1: my colleague Joe comes to me one day and says, 262 00:14:36,720 --> 00:14:39,040 Speaker 1: Pack is crying in his office because of something you said. 263 00:14:39,240 --> 00:14:42,040 Speaker 1: How you said it. That's when I realized. When I 264 00:14:42,080 --> 00:14:44,520 Speaker 1: went to talk to Zack and apologize, and his eyes 265 00:14:44,600 --> 00:14:48,600 Speaker 1: brimmed with tears, he realized, Ah, this is what I want. 266 00:14:48,960 --> 00:14:52,400 Speaker 1: How did I morph from being caring and compassionate from 267 00:14:52,440 --> 00:14:54,600 Speaker 1: people thinking I'm one of the best bosses they worked 268 00:14:54,640 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 1: for to this someone that people were afraid of and 269 00:14:58,320 --> 00:15:01,120 Speaker 1: really didn't like very much. So it's the same person, 270 00:15:01,400 --> 00:15:05,520 Speaker 1: different circumstances. Under pressure, even the best bosses can morph 271 00:15:05,600 --> 00:15:06,640 Speaker 1: into the worst bosses. 272 00:15:07,240 --> 00:15:09,520 Speaker 2: Yeah, so in that case, I mean, you're getting pressure 273 00:15:09,600 --> 00:15:12,720 Speaker 2: from the top, and I wonder if also because you're 274 00:15:12,720 --> 00:15:15,200 Speaker 2: coming back from parentally, you're not also like trying to 275 00:15:15,240 --> 00:15:17,960 Speaker 2: prove yourself a little bit, like not that you've lost 276 00:15:18,000 --> 00:15:21,240 Speaker 2: anything since you've gone off, because I do think that there, Yeah, 277 00:15:21,360 --> 00:15:23,680 Speaker 2: there's that fear I think as women that we come 278 00:15:23,720 --> 00:15:27,840 Speaker 2: back and we'll be underestimated. But how do you get 279 00:15:27,880 --> 00:15:30,680 Speaker 2: better about that when it's coming from up top? Like, 280 00:15:30,880 --> 00:15:34,520 Speaker 2: did you talk to Steve the CEO about the tone 281 00:15:34,560 --> 00:15:36,400 Speaker 2: that he was setting? I mean that sticy. 282 00:15:36,680 --> 00:15:39,440 Speaker 1: Yeah, No, I wasn't really I don't think it was 283 00:15:39,480 --> 00:15:41,760 Speaker 1: pressure from the top. It was pressure from the top 284 00:15:41,920 --> 00:15:44,960 Speaker 1: just as part of the job. There was nothing in 285 00:15:45,000 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: how Steve was asking me to do things that needed 286 00:15:48,280 --> 00:15:51,200 Speaker 1: to be changed. What needed to change was how I 287 00:15:51,240 --> 00:15:54,240 Speaker 1: manage the pressure. Look, you're the pressure is not going 288 00:15:54,280 --> 00:15:56,440 Speaker 1: to go away. If you want a dream big, you 289 00:15:56,480 --> 00:15:58,480 Speaker 1: want to play big, You're going to be in a 290 00:15:58,520 --> 00:16:02,240 Speaker 1: pressure cooker. It's not possible to be pressure free. What 291 00:16:02,280 --> 00:16:04,360 Speaker 1: you're after is trying to be pressure proof. 292 00:16:04,840 --> 00:16:07,240 Speaker 2: I love that, right, I love a catch phrase. But 293 00:16:07,440 --> 00:16:10,560 Speaker 2: there you go, it's not possible to be pressure free. 294 00:16:10,640 --> 00:16:13,320 Speaker 2: It's such a it's such a great like I just 295 00:16:13,360 --> 00:16:16,600 Speaker 2: want to stop there for a moment because I was 296 00:16:16,680 --> 00:16:18,840 Speaker 2: just talking to I did an interview with a financial 297 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:21,280 Speaker 2: therapist but right before this, and she was saying how 298 00:16:21,320 --> 00:16:24,560 Speaker 2: as humans, we really don't like being uncomfortable, and we 299 00:16:24,640 --> 00:16:27,040 Speaker 2: think something is wrong if we're uncomfortable, and like we 300 00:16:27,080 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 2: want to fix it and soothe it, and like it 301 00:16:29,520 --> 00:16:31,920 Speaker 2: just sounds like what you're describing, you know, when you 302 00:16:31,960 --> 00:16:35,000 Speaker 2: are in a big position. Yeah, there's it's like accepting 303 00:16:35,080 --> 00:16:38,400 Speaker 2: that there's going to be a very high pressure environment 304 00:16:38,560 --> 00:16:41,200 Speaker 2: and it's our job to like learn how to cope 305 00:16:41,240 --> 00:16:43,400 Speaker 2: with it in a healthy way so that we can 306 00:16:43,480 --> 00:16:44,480 Speaker 2: be better leaders. 307 00:16:45,040 --> 00:16:48,800 Speaker 1: That's exactly it. That's exactly it. And so how do 308 00:16:48,880 --> 00:16:51,440 Speaker 1: you do that. One of the things to do when 309 00:16:51,480 --> 00:16:54,560 Speaker 1: pressure rises is to do nothing. What I mean by that, 310 00:16:55,400 --> 00:16:57,880 Speaker 1: most of us, when pressure rises, want to work harder. 311 00:16:58,000 --> 00:17:01,200 Speaker 1: We want to buckle down, work late it, sacrifice dinner, 312 00:17:01,320 --> 00:17:06,440 Speaker 1: sacrifice family time, sacrifice self care, and keep going, going, going, doing, 313 00:17:06,520 --> 00:17:09,480 Speaker 1: doing doing, Instead, what I ask my clients to do 314 00:17:09,840 --> 00:17:12,840 Speaker 1: is a practice called blank space, which is taking two 315 00:17:12,880 --> 00:17:15,680 Speaker 1: hours a week where they step back, unplug from everything. 316 00:17:15,760 --> 00:17:20,160 Speaker 1: No conversation, no reading, certainly not online because research soul 317 00:17:20,280 --> 00:17:22,919 Speaker 1: shows that some of our best thoughts come where in 318 00:17:23,000 --> 00:17:26,960 Speaker 1: the shower, on our commutes, when we're working out. That 319 00:17:27,119 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: is when we've switched the active part of our brain. 320 00:17:30,160 --> 00:17:32,639 Speaker 1: And when you do that and you're in blank space, 321 00:17:32,720 --> 00:17:36,199 Speaker 1: you suddenly realize that all these smaller things that you're 322 00:17:36,240 --> 00:17:40,280 Speaker 1: getting stressed out about, that you're generating your own pressure on, 323 00:17:40,560 --> 00:17:43,719 Speaker 1: don't matter. It reconnects you to that north star what 324 00:17:43,800 --> 00:17:47,320 Speaker 1: you need to push towards. It refreshes your brain. It 325 00:17:47,359 --> 00:17:50,119 Speaker 1: gives you a rest and gives you bigger ideas that 326 00:17:50,160 --> 00:17:52,639 Speaker 1: you need to go chase, helps you be more strategic. 327 00:17:53,440 --> 00:17:55,920 Speaker 2: So what does that look like in effect? Like, go outside, 328 00:17:55,960 --> 00:17:58,080 Speaker 2: touch grass, go take a while outside. 329 00:17:58,200 --> 00:18:00,479 Speaker 1: Yeah, so different people have different ways of doing it. 330 00:18:00,880 --> 00:18:03,520 Speaker 1: Go outside, touch grass is great if you want to 331 00:18:03,520 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: do it. One person lay in their hammock for two hours. 332 00:18:07,320 --> 00:18:10,960 Speaker 1: Another person wanted to discover all the pie shops in 333 00:18:11,040 --> 00:18:13,359 Speaker 1: the city that he lived in, so he would go 334 00:18:13,520 --> 00:18:16,200 Speaker 1: order two pies in his two hours and sit there. 335 00:18:16,359 --> 00:18:20,680 Speaker 1: Someone else had a hotel that overlooked a mountain range. 336 00:18:21,040 --> 00:18:25,239 Speaker 1: He would go order brunch there every Thursday morning. So 337 00:18:25,440 --> 00:18:28,399 Speaker 1: it really looks different for different people. Someone else was 338 00:18:28,440 --> 00:18:31,840 Speaker 1: at a coffee shop with a box of crayons and 339 00:18:31,920 --> 00:18:33,440 Speaker 1: she would just draw. 340 00:18:33,400 --> 00:18:36,119 Speaker 2: And oh that's me. I love a doodle. There you go, 341 00:18:36,480 --> 00:18:38,760 Speaker 2: a magic marker. You know, I have a thing against 342 00:18:38,760 --> 00:18:42,880 Speaker 2: those adult coloring books that are like so tiny and intricute, intricate. 343 00:18:43,040 --> 00:18:45,680 Speaker 2: I'm like, yes, this is frustrating me because they feel 344 00:18:45,680 --> 00:18:47,640 Speaker 2: like I could finish the whole page. 345 00:18:47,680 --> 00:18:50,119 Speaker 1: Get you like, I want to get you. 346 00:18:50,160 --> 00:18:52,800 Speaker 2: A Creola magic marker set and like one of those 347 00:18:53,080 --> 00:18:57,239 Speaker 2: chunky picture like coloring books from from the from the 348 00:18:57,400 --> 00:19:01,879 Speaker 2: drug store, and that's a their soothing activity, just colored. 349 00:19:02,000 --> 00:19:06,360 Speaker 2: That's a picture of this sun. It's like a meditation. Honestly, 350 00:19:06,400 --> 00:19:07,120 Speaker 2: it sounds like. 351 00:19:07,920 --> 00:19:09,160 Speaker 1: Yeah, work is meditation. 352 00:19:09,560 --> 00:19:12,560 Speaker 2: It's like a and I think the word meditation can 353 00:19:12,600 --> 00:19:15,280 Speaker 2: be intimidating, but it's like in an effect, it's really 354 00:19:15,320 --> 00:19:19,159 Speaker 2: just like being present and quiet. And that is so 355 00:19:19,280 --> 00:19:21,679 Speaker 2: antithetical to like what we think we need to do 356 00:19:21,800 --> 00:19:24,680 Speaker 2: to be successful and to be the boss. I'm the boss. 357 00:19:24,720 --> 00:19:27,080 Speaker 2: I should be doing doing, doing, doing, doing right. 358 00:19:27,480 --> 00:19:31,760 Speaker 1: Yeah, and we forget that they're human beings, not human doings. Yeah. 359 00:19:32,480 --> 00:19:34,920 Speaker 2: Yeah, So talk to me about what are some of 360 00:19:34,920 --> 00:19:37,840 Speaker 2: the what are some of the biggest mistakes you can 361 00:19:37,880 --> 00:19:39,919 Speaker 2: make when you're at like a senior executive level, you're 362 00:19:39,960 --> 00:19:42,240 Speaker 2: working your way up and you're you know, the stakes 363 00:19:42,240 --> 00:19:45,280 Speaker 2: are getting higher. Others we've talked about needing to have 364 00:19:45,359 --> 00:19:48,600 Speaker 2: more time and to cope with the pressure. What are 365 00:19:48,640 --> 00:19:50,760 Speaker 2: some mistakes you see happen time and time again. 366 00:19:51,480 --> 00:19:53,879 Speaker 1: Yeah, So, Mandy, as I wrote this book, it's based 367 00:19:53,920 --> 00:19:57,000 Speaker 1: on twelve thousand pages of data. The data I collected 368 00:19:57,200 --> 00:20:00,440 Speaker 1: was through interviews over a thousand interviews of people who 369 00:20:00,480 --> 00:20:02,840 Speaker 1: worked for my clients. So what's it like to really 370 00:20:02,880 --> 00:20:07,240 Speaker 1: work for this person, the CEO? And the number one 371 00:20:07,600 --> 00:20:10,359 Speaker 1: piece of negative feedback was this person has a hard 372 00:20:10,400 --> 00:20:13,040 Speaker 1: impact on others. And this is where I arrived at 373 00:20:13,080 --> 00:20:15,840 Speaker 1: that it's not power but pressure that corrupts. So we 374 00:20:15,920 --> 00:20:18,360 Speaker 1: get rude, we get crude, we don't pay attention. We've 375 00:20:18,400 --> 00:20:21,959 Speaker 1: talked about that. The number two is around communication and 376 00:20:22,160 --> 00:20:28,120 Speaker 1: various aspects of communication. The biggest mistake executives make in 377 00:20:28,160 --> 00:20:32,479 Speaker 1: communication is they talk too much. The antidote to that 378 00:20:32,760 --> 00:20:38,040 Speaker 1: is what I call exercise shut up muscle. And there 379 00:20:38,080 --> 00:20:40,360 Speaker 1: are four steps to that. But one of the steps, 380 00:20:41,119 --> 00:20:45,680 Speaker 1: which is you can do immediately and quickly, though not easily, 381 00:20:46,440 --> 00:20:50,159 Speaker 1: is to not be the first or second person to speak. 382 00:20:51,240 --> 00:20:54,760 Speaker 1: Be the third person, be the fifth person. Because once 383 00:20:54,800 --> 00:20:58,359 Speaker 1: someone in a position of power speaks, everybody else gets 384 00:20:58,400 --> 00:21:01,240 Speaker 1: busy laughing at it, at it as in, oh wow, 385 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,760 Speaker 1: that's so funny, praising it, oh wow, that's so clever. 386 00:21:05,240 --> 00:21:07,960 Speaker 1: Nobody's going to disagree with it, and you lose access 387 00:21:08,000 --> 00:21:12,399 Speaker 1: to diversity of thought, You lose access to creativity. You 388 00:21:12,520 --> 00:21:16,240 Speaker 1: lose the opportunity to grow the people on your team 389 00:21:16,240 --> 00:21:19,160 Speaker 1: and in your organization. So shut up. Yes you're right, 390 00:21:19,560 --> 00:21:21,600 Speaker 1: Yes you know a lot. But do you want to 391 00:21:21,680 --> 00:21:25,479 Speaker 1: continue to build this band club and a sense of 392 00:21:25,560 --> 00:21:29,080 Speaker 1: everyone reassuring you how great you are? Or do you 393 00:21:29,080 --> 00:21:31,920 Speaker 1: want to grow the entire organization? And oh, by the way, 394 00:21:32,000 --> 00:21:35,320 Speaker 1: when you grow the entire organization, more people can step 395 00:21:35,400 --> 00:21:37,439 Speaker 1: up and do some things that are on your plate 396 00:21:37,640 --> 00:21:38,800 Speaker 1: and reduce pressure on you. 397 00:21:39,280 --> 00:21:42,639 Speaker 2: Yeah, there's this like sense of when you get to 398 00:21:42,880 --> 00:21:45,200 Speaker 2: I mean, I'm just thinking about me as a manager 399 00:21:45,359 --> 00:21:48,280 Speaker 2: and how once I was managing such a big team, 400 00:21:48,800 --> 00:21:52,320 Speaker 2: I was afraid. I mean I intellectually I knew the 401 00:21:52,359 --> 00:21:56,760 Speaker 2: word delegate and you know how, but I was afraid 402 00:21:56,800 --> 00:21:59,119 Speaker 2: if I wasn't seen to be having my hands on 403 00:21:59,119 --> 00:22:01,400 Speaker 2: a lot of things, that they would think I wasn't 404 00:22:01,400 --> 00:22:03,480 Speaker 2: doing a great job. I think there was maybe even 405 00:22:03,480 --> 00:22:08,879 Speaker 2: a breakdown in communication between my higher ups, like my executives, 406 00:22:09,480 --> 00:22:13,119 Speaker 2: in like being clear about what the expectation was for me, 407 00:22:13,160 --> 00:22:17,639 Speaker 2: and like what they were expecting because I let myself 408 00:22:17,720 --> 00:22:21,000 Speaker 2: get into such a place of burnout and so much stress, 409 00:22:21,040 --> 00:22:23,400 Speaker 2: I mean, and then like and so much fear around him. 410 00:22:23,440 --> 00:22:25,040 Speaker 2: I going to be fired, blah blah blah. And after 411 00:22:25,160 --> 00:22:26,800 Speaker 2: like months and months and months of this, I walk 412 00:22:26,840 --> 00:22:30,000 Speaker 2: into my boss's office and I'm ready to quit. I'm like, 413 00:22:30,119 --> 00:22:32,480 Speaker 2: I can't do this anymore. This is too much. I'm 414 00:22:32,560 --> 00:22:34,760 Speaker 2: just like so stressed all the time that you want this, 415 00:22:34,840 --> 00:22:37,440 Speaker 2: you want that ra And he just is very calm 416 00:22:37,560 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 2: and he's like, what do you need. It's like it 417 00:22:40,560 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 2: just sounds like, yeah, there's a lot of things on 418 00:22:42,320 --> 00:22:43,720 Speaker 2: your plate. What do you need to get it done? 419 00:22:43,800 --> 00:22:45,480 Speaker 2: I was like, what do you He's like, well, you're 420 00:22:45,480 --> 00:22:48,040 Speaker 2: not even using your full budget for this. I'm like, well, 421 00:22:48,320 --> 00:22:50,320 Speaker 2: I thought if I used if I used the full budget, 422 00:22:50,359 --> 00:22:52,840 Speaker 2: I thought that would be like bad because it would 423 00:22:52,840 --> 00:22:55,520 Speaker 2: look like I wasn't being budget conscious. And he's like, well, 424 00:22:55,560 --> 00:22:57,760 Speaker 2: you're supposed to use the budget to get this, to 425 00:22:57,840 --> 00:23:02,680 Speaker 2: get these goals done. Exist Yeah, yeah, it was a bit. 426 00:23:02,920 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: It was a very like meaningful moment for me in 427 00:23:05,840 --> 00:23:08,720 Speaker 2: terms of understanding. Yeah, it was. It was meaningful to 428 00:23:08,760 --> 00:23:10,320 Speaker 2: me in a couple of ways. But one it was 429 00:23:10,359 --> 00:23:13,239 Speaker 2: like I'm in control of figuring out, Like I'm in 430 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:15,560 Speaker 2: this position and they're expecting me to just figure out 431 00:23:15,600 --> 00:23:17,120 Speaker 2: how to make it happen. They're not telling me how 432 00:23:17,160 --> 00:23:18,959 Speaker 2: to do it, and it's up to me. I've created 433 00:23:18,960 --> 00:23:21,080 Speaker 2: this way of doing it that is detrimental to me 434 00:23:21,320 --> 00:23:24,719 Speaker 2: and the whole team. And if I want to do 435 00:23:24,760 --> 00:23:26,760 Speaker 2: my job well, then I need to come up with 436 00:23:26,800 --> 00:23:30,160 Speaker 2: a better plan, recognize that this isn't working, and come 437 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:32,600 Speaker 2: up with a different plan, and then actually know how 438 00:23:32,600 --> 00:23:35,760 Speaker 2: to like ask for additional resources and not be afraid 439 00:23:35,840 --> 00:23:38,399 Speaker 2: of being seen as weak or unable to do my 440 00:23:38,520 --> 00:23:42,639 Speaker 2: job because I needed the extra Yeah, you know, help resources, 441 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:43,040 Speaker 2: et cetera. 442 00:23:43,359 --> 00:23:48,280 Speaker 1: Yep, yep. Yeah. Talk about multiple meanings and reframing that 443 00:23:48,400 --> 00:23:50,960 Speaker 1: from a sign of weakness so actually a sign of 444 00:23:51,000 --> 00:23:54,439 Speaker 1: being strategic, a sign of strength. I'm so confident that 445 00:23:54,520 --> 00:23:57,000 Speaker 1: I can ask for things and say that I cannot 446 00:23:57,080 --> 00:23:59,160 Speaker 1: do this single handedly. Yeah. 447 00:23:59,240 --> 00:24:03,119 Speaker 2: Yeah, I wonder too, what is the gender makeup of 448 00:24:03,200 --> 00:24:05,760 Speaker 2: your clients? Are you mostly working with women? Is it 449 00:24:05,760 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 2: a mix of men and women? It's a mix, a mix. 450 00:24:08,840 --> 00:24:13,440 Speaker 2: Do you find any difference in how women like what 451 00:24:13,520 --> 00:24:17,480 Speaker 2: we're struggling with in leadership roles versus men, anything that's 452 00:24:17,600 --> 00:24:20,320 Speaker 2: telling about our challenges versus theirs. 453 00:24:21,160 --> 00:24:23,240 Speaker 1: Well, first of all, I was very surprised when I 454 00:24:23,240 --> 00:24:26,600 Speaker 1: looked at, analyzed, deeply analyze these twelve thousand pages of data, 455 00:24:27,040 --> 00:24:30,439 Speaker 1: I did not see gender differences in how they fall 456 00:24:30,600 --> 00:24:33,679 Speaker 1: prey to the pressure pitfalls and the power gaps. It 457 00:24:33,840 --> 00:24:36,840 Speaker 1: was equally divided amongst men and women. What I do 458 00:24:36,920 --> 00:24:40,879 Speaker 1: find common on a gender basis is around strategic thinking. 459 00:24:41,280 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 1: That women often tend to get feedback that they're not strategic, 460 00:24:44,720 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 1: but they're actually quite strategic. They're busy caretaking and doing 461 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,960 Speaker 1: the less strategic work, and so it's more that they 462 00:24:54,000 --> 00:24:56,879 Speaker 1: haven't given themselves time. They haven't carved out the space 463 00:24:56,920 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 1: and time to do the strategic work. And when we 464 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,520 Speaker 1: work on that and I say let's create some blank 465 00:25:02,560 --> 00:25:06,200 Speaker 1: space where you can really think the strategic thoughts, they're 466 00:25:06,240 --> 00:25:09,119 Speaker 1: often afraid that if I now carve out the time, 467 00:25:09,240 --> 00:25:12,680 Speaker 1: I'll actually discover I truly am not strategic. So by 468 00:25:12,800 --> 00:25:14,919 Speaker 1: not carving out the time, it's like a muscle. That 469 00:25:15,040 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 1: muscle hasn't grown, and so they assume that they don't 470 00:25:18,359 --> 00:25:21,399 Speaker 1: have it, versus it's an underdeveloped muscle, and you, just 471 00:25:21,520 --> 00:25:23,160 Speaker 1: like anything else, you've got to go to the gym 472 00:25:23,200 --> 00:25:27,239 Speaker 1: of strategic thinking. So that's one where I think that 473 00:25:28,119 --> 00:25:30,560 Speaker 1: a lot of women get feedback that they're not strategic, 474 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:32,439 Speaker 1: but when they do take the time to do it, 475 00:25:32,840 --> 00:25:35,440 Speaker 1: they have created transformational business results. 476 00:25:36,600 --> 00:25:40,199 Speaker 2: What even is that word strategic? Like it's so I mean, 477 00:25:40,240 --> 00:25:42,879 Speaker 2: I've just used it, Like what does that mean? Like 478 00:25:42,920 --> 00:25:47,640 Speaker 2: you're not strategic enough. You're not analyzing results and making 479 00:25:47,800 --> 00:25:50,919 Speaker 2: business decisions that are different to improve those results. Like 480 00:25:51,200 --> 00:25:51,879 Speaker 2: is that what it is? 481 00:25:52,000 --> 00:25:54,840 Speaker 1: Yes, And you're not stepping back enough. You're too much 482 00:25:54,840 --> 00:25:57,360 Speaker 1: in the fray, You're too much in the weeds. You're 483 00:25:57,359 --> 00:25:59,960 Speaker 1: not stepping back enough and anticipating what's going to happen 484 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:02,600 Speaker 1: down the road. So as a result, there's a longer 485 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 1: string of fire drills, or we've missed opportunities in the 486 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:08,879 Speaker 1: market or with our competitors or for our customers because 487 00:26:08,920 --> 00:26:12,000 Speaker 1: you didn't step back and think through the bigger picture 488 00:26:12,560 --> 00:26:15,159 Speaker 1: and the consequences, not even in the long term, but 489 00:26:15,240 --> 00:26:16,240 Speaker 1: in the medium term. 490 00:26:17,040 --> 00:26:21,159 Speaker 2: Hmmm. So for your clients who are struggling with that, 491 00:26:21,400 --> 00:26:23,919 Speaker 2: when you're in that blank space, then what do you 492 00:26:24,119 --> 00:26:27,280 Speaker 2: do to like zoom out? Sometimes for me, if I'm 493 00:26:27,280 --> 00:26:30,200 Speaker 2: trying to zoom out, you know, for my for the podcast, 494 00:26:30,240 --> 00:26:31,880 Speaker 2: for example, if I want to like take some time 495 00:26:31,920 --> 00:26:34,040 Speaker 2: to strategically look at what's the next year going to 496 00:26:34,080 --> 00:26:36,159 Speaker 2: look like for Brown Ambition, which I just did the 497 00:26:36,240 --> 00:26:41,399 Speaker 2: year editorial calendar. I can't just be quiet like I 498 00:26:41,440 --> 00:26:43,600 Speaker 2: need to also in my mind like look at what 499 00:26:43,680 --> 00:26:46,480 Speaker 2: other competitors are doing, and look at what's going to 500 00:26:46,480 --> 00:26:49,040 Speaker 2: be coming up on the you know, let's say it's 501 00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:51,280 Speaker 2: a year of the Olympics. It's not, but you know, 502 00:26:51,520 --> 00:26:54,960 Speaker 2: or whatever an election is coming up that may dictate 503 00:26:55,000 --> 00:26:56,879 Speaker 2: how I'm going to play in the calendar. So I 504 00:26:56,960 --> 00:26:59,159 Speaker 2: need to have like other voices in the mix. Do 505 00:26:59,200 --> 00:27:01,600 Speaker 2: you think that that's how full for executives in that 506 00:27:01,640 --> 00:27:04,760 Speaker 2: position to like go to a thought leadership conference or 507 00:27:05,000 --> 00:27:07,760 Speaker 2: get it, you know, read certain trade publications, listen to 508 00:27:07,800 --> 00:27:11,680 Speaker 2: other you know, other thinkers in the space to inform 509 00:27:11,720 --> 00:27:12,440 Speaker 2: that strategy. 510 00:27:13,160 --> 00:27:17,399 Speaker 1: Absolutely absolutely keeping your radar open to what else is 511 00:27:17,440 --> 00:27:19,800 Speaker 1: going on so you're not creating something in a bubble 512 00:27:19,880 --> 00:27:22,480 Speaker 1: and not getting stuck in whatever you come up with, 513 00:27:22,640 --> 00:27:26,080 Speaker 1: because especially these days, things are changing overnight. So you 514 00:27:26,160 --> 00:27:28,960 Speaker 1: also have to be flexible. But to be flexible, you've 515 00:27:29,000 --> 00:27:31,200 Speaker 1: got to be well read and up to date on 516 00:27:31,240 --> 00:27:33,359 Speaker 1: what else is going on. Otherwise it's going to come 517 00:27:33,359 --> 00:27:36,440 Speaker 1: bye to you unexpectedly, so absolutely that would be part 518 00:27:36,440 --> 00:27:39,280 Speaker 1: of the process in that blank space. The other thing 519 00:27:39,400 --> 00:27:42,480 Speaker 1: that as somebody did very successfully, she would keep a 520 00:27:42,600 --> 00:27:45,360 Speaker 1: running list all week long. So let's say her blank 521 00:27:45,400 --> 00:27:49,399 Speaker 1: space was on Thursdays, so Friday through Thursday, she would 522 00:27:49,440 --> 00:27:51,320 Speaker 1: just keep a running list with a bunch of sticky 523 00:27:51,359 --> 00:27:54,200 Speaker 1: notes of Oh this idea, oh that thing, Oh what 524 00:27:54,280 --> 00:27:57,880 Speaker 1: about this thing that I read? And in her blank 525 00:27:57,920 --> 00:28:01,439 Speaker 1: space she'd bring all these random, random thoughts and sticky 526 00:28:01,480 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: notes to her blank space. Date something magical started to happen. 527 00:28:05,359 --> 00:28:08,520 Speaker 1: Is it wasn't about any one of those individual sticky notes. 528 00:28:09,040 --> 00:28:13,280 Speaker 1: When she looked at them together, she went, oh, my gosh, 529 00:28:13,560 --> 00:28:17,639 Speaker 1: we're missing this huge opportunity in this market. So it 530 00:28:17,880 --> 00:28:21,399 Speaker 1: allowed her to instead of just playing whack a mole 531 00:28:21,480 --> 00:28:24,919 Speaker 1: with every new idea that pops up, it allowed her 532 00:28:24,920 --> 00:28:28,160 Speaker 1: to step back and say, what's the interconnection between these things. 533 00:28:29,840 --> 00:28:33,600 Speaker 2: I have a wild ideas trello board like a little yes, 534 00:28:34,080 --> 00:28:37,160 Speaker 2: I just literally because I am, I can get distracted, 535 00:28:38,480 --> 00:28:41,160 Speaker 2: and I love my ideas. As a mom, like I 536 00:28:41,200 --> 00:28:44,000 Speaker 2: have two young kids, and like as a mom, sometimes 537 00:28:44,040 --> 00:28:46,400 Speaker 2: all I want is just to be with my own thoughts. 538 00:28:46,520 --> 00:28:48,600 Speaker 2: I really think that my brain is a magical place, 539 00:28:48,640 --> 00:28:49,920 Speaker 2: and I'm like, I can come up. I'm such a 540 00:28:49,960 --> 00:28:52,240 Speaker 2: creative person. I have so many great ideas if I 541 00:28:52,280 --> 00:28:55,200 Speaker 2: can just have my brain to myself. But then sometimes 542 00:28:55,200 --> 00:28:58,800 Speaker 2: those ideas can go down rabbit holes. Yes, so I 543 00:28:58,840 --> 00:29:01,200 Speaker 2: love the posted ideas, just like dump them on a 544 00:29:01,200 --> 00:29:04,200 Speaker 2: Trello board. I don't have the blank space date with 545 00:29:04,280 --> 00:29:06,600 Speaker 2: myself like where I go back and look at them though, 546 00:29:06,760 --> 00:29:09,400 Speaker 2: But at least it's like it gets over that fear. 547 00:29:09,440 --> 00:29:10,520 Speaker 2: But I'm gonna forget Mandy. 548 00:29:10,600 --> 00:29:13,920 Speaker 1: That's brilliant. Yeah, So even simply putting the ideas out there. 549 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:16,640 Speaker 1: Now you're in the shower and suddenly you know there's 550 00:29:16,680 --> 00:29:18,920 Speaker 1: some blank space right there, and it'll start to Marin. 551 00:29:19,080 --> 00:29:21,240 Speaker 2: I took a shower today and I just listened to 552 00:29:21,280 --> 00:29:26,480 Speaker 2: a podcast. I know not even my shower is a 553 00:29:26,520 --> 00:29:31,000 Speaker 2: blank space. H Yeah. I struggle with like it really 554 00:29:31,080 --> 00:29:32,520 Speaker 2: is like a practice to have to just like. 555 00:29:32,480 --> 00:29:35,960 Speaker 1: Have quiet absolutely, you know. And here's another thing you 556 00:29:35,960 --> 00:29:37,920 Speaker 1: could do. You could start it as a micro habit. 557 00:29:38,040 --> 00:29:41,040 Speaker 1: A micro habit is two things. One it's micro. It's 558 00:29:41,080 --> 00:29:44,200 Speaker 1: so ridiculously small that it would be absurd not to 559 00:29:44,240 --> 00:29:47,000 Speaker 1: do it. And two, did you do it every single day. 560 00:29:47,080 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: So let's say, for example, I don't make blank space time. 561 00:29:50,000 --> 00:29:52,640 Speaker 1: I don't have space right now with two young kids 562 00:29:52,640 --> 00:29:56,400 Speaker 1: and a full career. What if you took ten seconds 563 00:29:56,440 --> 00:30:01,000 Speaker 1: of blank space every day? Seconds is doable. 564 00:30:01,840 --> 00:30:02,720 Speaker 2: I'll take it right now. 565 00:30:03,480 --> 00:30:06,840 Speaker 1: Great. Yeah, so just set a timer for ten seconds 566 00:30:07,040 --> 00:30:08,719 Speaker 1: and that's the way to build that muscle. 567 00:30:10,600 --> 00:30:13,320 Speaker 2: This is what I want to talk about, passion and purpose. 568 00:30:14,000 --> 00:30:16,720 Speaker 2: So I want to know what do you have to 569 00:30:16,720 --> 00:30:18,959 Speaker 2: say in the book about you kind of get what 570 00:30:19,000 --> 00:30:20,760 Speaker 2: you thought you always wanted. You get to this level 571 00:30:20,800 --> 00:30:23,560 Speaker 2: of your career, you're doing what you thought it's your passion, 572 00:30:23,960 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 2: and then you're like, I'm here. I don't know if 573 00:30:27,120 --> 00:30:28,160 Speaker 2: I want to be here. I don't know if I 574 00:30:28,200 --> 00:30:28,960 Speaker 2: want to be doing this. 575 00:30:29,400 --> 00:30:33,840 Speaker 1: Yes, this was a surprising finding for me, particularly with 576 00:30:33,960 --> 00:30:36,959 Speaker 1: my clients who are north of forty five, so somewhere 577 00:30:37,040 --> 00:30:40,160 Speaker 1: between forty five and sixty. They would come to me going, 578 00:30:40,240 --> 00:30:43,560 Speaker 1: I'm made. I have the big title, I've got house, 579 00:30:43,720 --> 00:30:49,240 Speaker 1: the whatever, big empire, et cetera, and I'm not feeling fulfilled. 580 00:30:49,360 --> 00:30:51,840 Speaker 1: I'm wondering, is there all there there is? Is this 581 00:30:51,920 --> 00:30:54,840 Speaker 1: all there is? It's not as cool as I thought. 582 00:30:54,920 --> 00:30:59,080 Speaker 1: It was going to be they've lost track, They've lost 583 00:30:59,120 --> 00:31:02,280 Speaker 1: the plot last track of what really connects them. So 584 00:31:02,320 --> 00:31:04,760 Speaker 1: I came up with a tool called a joy line, 585 00:31:04,760 --> 00:31:08,800 Speaker 1: which is simply a vertical line, and the vertical line 586 00:31:08,840 --> 00:31:14,320 Speaker 1: is chronologically your life. On one side of the vertical 587 00:31:14,360 --> 00:31:19,480 Speaker 1: line the things about ten things that have given you 588 00:31:19,560 --> 00:31:23,320 Speaker 1: tremendous joy, and on the other side of the line, 589 00:31:23,400 --> 00:31:27,080 Speaker 1: about ten things that have leached out joy from your life. 590 00:31:27,120 --> 00:31:30,920 Speaker 1: And often simply doing that exercise and writing those things, 591 00:31:32,120 --> 00:31:34,479 Speaker 1: the work takes care of itself because people start to 592 00:31:34,480 --> 00:31:37,000 Speaker 1: have light bulb moments of oh wow. But if not 593 00:31:37,560 --> 00:31:39,720 Speaker 1: look at the themes, what's common to the things that 594 00:31:39,760 --> 00:31:41,800 Speaker 1: have given you joy? Is it because you had a 595 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:44,360 Speaker 1: sense of autonomy in those cases and you don't write 596 00:31:44,360 --> 00:31:46,840 Speaker 1: now because your board of directors is breathing down your 597 00:31:46,840 --> 00:31:49,160 Speaker 1: neck all the time? What else is common to the 598 00:31:49,200 --> 00:31:51,760 Speaker 1: things that gave you joy and the things that took 599 00:31:51,800 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: away joy from you? And which of those are you're 600 00:31:54,120 --> 00:31:56,440 Speaker 1: finding in your life right now? So you can redesign 601 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,240 Speaker 1: your life by looking back through the process of the 602 00:32:00,320 --> 00:32:00,880 Speaker 1: joy line. 603 00:32:01,480 --> 00:32:04,040 Speaker 2: Is it often about like taking things out you find 604 00:32:04,120 --> 00:32:06,280 Speaker 2: or is it people needing to add things back. 605 00:32:06,040 --> 00:32:10,400 Speaker 1: In both both. Okay, first, the first step is taking 606 00:32:10,480 --> 00:32:12,800 Speaker 1: things out, just clearing the decks, because there's so much 607 00:32:12,880 --> 00:32:15,080 Speaker 1: noise in most of our lives and we haven't even 608 00:32:15,120 --> 00:32:17,320 Speaker 1: realized what we've done, and we've packed up all this 609 00:32:17,480 --> 00:32:20,000 Speaker 1: junk that is now gunking up our sense of joy, 610 00:32:20,040 --> 00:32:22,360 Speaker 1: our sense of passion, or sense of purpose. So first 611 00:32:22,400 --> 00:32:24,920 Speaker 1: it's cleaning house because you cannot even see when it's 612 00:32:24,920 --> 00:32:27,200 Speaker 1: so noisy and dirty. And then it's about what are 613 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:28,360 Speaker 1: you going to add in that space? 614 00:32:29,440 --> 00:32:31,280 Speaker 2: I don't know, can you see my house right now? 615 00:32:31,320 --> 00:32:36,480 Speaker 2: Because it is kind of cluttered, kind of cluttered. Yeah, 616 00:32:36,560 --> 00:32:38,480 Speaker 2: it was funny. No, but that's a good analogy because 617 00:32:38,480 --> 00:32:40,320 Speaker 2: my husband's always talking about how we need to get 618 00:32:40,400 --> 00:32:41,840 Speaker 2: rid of things. We have too much stuff. And I 619 00:32:41,880 --> 00:32:45,000 Speaker 2: was like, if we just focused on putting things where 620 00:32:45,000 --> 00:32:47,760 Speaker 2: they belong, and we just like for the kitchen, I 621 00:32:47,800 --> 00:32:50,200 Speaker 2: didn't wash a single dish. I just spent the day 622 00:32:50,280 --> 00:32:52,800 Speaker 2: taking things out of the kitchen that didn't belong there 623 00:32:52,880 --> 00:32:55,280 Speaker 2: and putting them where they go, and all of a sudden, 624 00:32:55,320 --> 00:32:57,920 Speaker 2: the kitchens clean. That's all I needed to do. 625 00:32:58,280 --> 00:32:59,320 Speaker 1: It was just clean. 626 00:33:00,000 --> 00:33:03,280 Speaker 2: If that's here does need to be here, that's really helpful. Okay, 627 00:33:04,120 --> 00:33:06,360 Speaker 2: so everyone should read the book. It's called You're the Boss, 628 00:33:06,480 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 2: Become the manager you want to be and others need. 629 00:33:08,920 --> 00:33:10,400 Speaker 2: I wish I had this book when I was a 630 00:33:10,440 --> 00:33:12,720 Speaker 2: baby manager. Before I let you go. I want to 631 00:33:12,800 --> 00:33:15,400 Speaker 2: know a little bit more about you and your journey 632 00:33:15,480 --> 00:33:18,200 Speaker 2: toward executive coaching. Why did you make that lead? 633 00:33:18,280 --> 00:33:22,960 Speaker 1: When I was running engineering groups at Microsoft, I Microsoft 634 00:33:23,000 --> 00:33:26,960 Speaker 1: gave me an eight week sabbatical, and different from how 635 00:33:27,000 --> 00:33:29,600 Speaker 1: I usually run my life, which is go go go, 636 00:33:29,680 --> 00:33:32,040 Speaker 1: do do do? I actually had plenty of blank space. 637 00:33:32,040 --> 00:33:34,600 Speaker 1: I had about five weeks of doing nothing, and in 638 00:33:34,640 --> 00:33:38,320 Speaker 1: that I had a really clear realization that it was 639 00:33:38,360 --> 00:33:40,840 Speaker 1: no longer a matter of if, but when I would 640 00:33:40,840 --> 00:33:43,280 Speaker 1: become a corporate vice president. Now that had been my 641 00:33:43,360 --> 00:33:48,120 Speaker 1: career ambition, especially as a Brown woman in corporate America 642 00:33:48,200 --> 00:33:51,480 Speaker 1: and especially those days. But once I realized that I 643 00:33:51,560 --> 00:33:54,880 Speaker 1: knew the formula, it became a really anticlimactic moment for me. 644 00:33:55,840 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: Why should I spend the next five years of my 645 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,400 Speaker 1: life chasing something when I already know how to achieve it? 646 00:34:02,360 --> 00:34:03,840 Speaker 1: And then I went, shoot, what do I do with 647 00:34:03,880 --> 00:34:06,880 Speaker 1: my life? I've gotten a lot of feedback that I 648 00:34:06,960 --> 00:34:10,480 Speaker 1: was a good people manager, and so I thought, let 649 00:34:10,480 --> 00:34:14,000 Speaker 1: me experiment with that, and I was fortunate enough that 650 00:34:14,040 --> 00:34:16,920 Speaker 1: Microsoft allowed me to do that. It's the only company 651 00:34:16,960 --> 00:34:19,880 Speaker 1: I've worked at, and it's it's been. It was really 652 00:34:19,880 --> 00:34:23,880 Speaker 1: transformational for the manager who hired me to say, yep, 653 00:34:24,080 --> 00:34:25,200 Speaker 1: I'll take that bet on you. 654 00:34:26,200 --> 00:34:28,399 Speaker 2: Oh, so that's how you shifted into the HR role. 655 00:34:28,640 --> 00:34:31,759 Speaker 1: That's how I shifted the role, and that got me 656 00:34:31,800 --> 00:34:36,319 Speaker 1: into executive coaching. Understanding all of these people things, but 657 00:34:36,440 --> 00:34:41,000 Speaker 1: also organizational systems. And you know, systems thinking is systems thinking, 658 00:34:41,120 --> 00:34:45,320 Speaker 1: So whether you're talking about organizational systems or computer software 659 00:34:45,360 --> 00:34:49,560 Speaker 1: operational systems, the same principles apply. So even though I 660 00:34:49,560 --> 00:34:52,200 Speaker 1: didn't have formal training in the beginning, I was able 661 00:34:52,200 --> 00:34:55,200 Speaker 1: to apply some of those principles and my street smarts 662 00:34:55,200 --> 00:34:59,040 Speaker 1: from managing organizations and get launched into this career. And 663 00:34:59,080 --> 00:35:01,839 Speaker 1: I did that for about six years before launching out 664 00:35:01,840 --> 00:35:02,359 Speaker 1: on my own. 665 00:35:03,840 --> 00:35:06,240 Speaker 2: And what made you feel like you're ready to go solo? 666 00:35:06,400 --> 00:35:10,759 Speaker 1: I wasn't sure. Again. I loved working at Microsoft. I 667 00:35:10,840 --> 00:35:14,399 Speaker 1: had a fantastic job. I had a blank check from 668 00:35:14,440 --> 00:35:16,959 Speaker 1: the senior most people had the company to remain there, 669 00:35:17,120 --> 00:35:20,439 Speaker 1: and I was seven months pregnant with my second kid. 670 00:35:20,760 --> 00:35:23,320 Speaker 1: My first kid was two years old and I thought, 671 00:35:23,560 --> 00:35:25,480 Speaker 1: I'm going to miss out on a lot of things. 672 00:35:25,600 --> 00:35:27,720 Speaker 1: Now that they're older, I still feel like I missed 673 00:35:27,719 --> 00:35:29,440 Speaker 1: out on a lot of things, but at least I 674 00:35:29,440 --> 00:35:30,440 Speaker 1: did it on my terms. 675 00:35:31,080 --> 00:35:33,959 Speaker 2: That's really beautiful and very honest. You know. I think 676 00:35:34,000 --> 00:35:37,880 Speaker 2: sometimes it's another kind of story that we're told as women, 677 00:35:38,000 --> 00:35:40,520 Speaker 2: is like when you have kids, you know, you have 678 00:35:40,600 --> 00:35:42,440 Speaker 2: to prepare. People are going to think that you're going 679 00:35:42,520 --> 00:35:44,440 Speaker 2: to quit your job, or that you're going to want 680 00:35:44,440 --> 00:35:46,440 Speaker 2: to take a step back and like that you're going 681 00:35:46,480 --> 00:35:49,319 Speaker 2: to decrease your earnings and all that, and then when 682 00:35:49,320 --> 00:35:52,520 Speaker 2: you're in it, it's like when you have kids, like yeah, duh, 683 00:35:52,560 --> 00:35:56,040 Speaker 2: Like yes, wouldn't you want to Like that's kind of 684 00:35:56,080 --> 00:36:01,000 Speaker 2: like you're doing it right, yes, exactly right, very right. Yeah, 685 00:36:01,000 --> 00:36:03,399 Speaker 2: And it's very different when you're in that position. That's 686 00:36:03,400 --> 00:36:05,440 Speaker 2: one of the reasons I started my business. I was like, well, 687 00:36:05,440 --> 00:36:08,960 Speaker 2: this is great. It's stressful, and you know, but I 688 00:36:09,000 --> 00:36:11,160 Speaker 2: can do drop off and pickups and still you know 689 00:36:11,280 --> 00:36:14,680 Speaker 2: whatever and play with the kids after school. And I 690 00:36:14,719 --> 00:36:17,799 Speaker 2: love that idea that we can start talking about that 691 00:36:18,000 --> 00:36:20,839 Speaker 2: as just kind of like a well Yeah, it's it's 692 00:36:21,000 --> 00:36:24,040 Speaker 2: just like it it conflicts with something in my brain 693 00:36:24,239 --> 00:36:27,000 Speaker 2: from the old days that's like, wait, don't talk about 694 00:36:27,080 --> 00:36:29,040 Speaker 2: quitting your job after you have a baby. Like, we're 695 00:36:29,040 --> 00:36:30,560 Speaker 2: not supposed to. We're supposed to come back and be 696 00:36:30,640 --> 00:36:31,480 Speaker 2: exactly that I am. 697 00:36:31,719 --> 00:36:34,600 Speaker 1: Maybe better, we're programmed exactly how we're programmed. And you know, 698 00:36:34,680 --> 00:36:37,160 Speaker 1: I Mandy, I had the luxury of having a stay 699 00:36:37,200 --> 00:36:37,920 Speaker 1: at home husband. 700 00:36:38,040 --> 00:36:40,920 Speaker 2: I got to get one of those. That's nice. 701 00:36:41,960 --> 00:36:46,439 Speaker 1: So I wasn't leaving because of logistical reasons. He's an 702 00:36:46,520 --> 00:36:50,200 Speaker 1: excellent father, And it was more of that shouldn't you 703 00:36:50,239 --> 00:36:52,640 Speaker 1: want to do this? You're missing out on some of 704 00:36:52,640 --> 00:36:54,040 Speaker 1: the things that are most important to you. 705 00:36:54,200 --> 00:36:57,600 Speaker 2: Yeah, it's not balance. It's like, of course I want 706 00:36:57,600 --> 00:36:59,120 Speaker 2: to be here for the fun stuff, but like I 707 00:36:59,160 --> 00:37:02,040 Speaker 2: still love my and I want to be able to 708 00:37:02,120 --> 00:37:04,440 Speaker 2: use it, you know. So it's great, but then you 709 00:37:04,480 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 2: can control the lever. 710 00:37:06,320 --> 00:37:07,719 Speaker 1: Yes, hence your Trello board. 711 00:37:08,560 --> 00:37:11,560 Speaker 2: Yeah, I love my Trello board. Airtable's fine, but I 712 00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:16,040 Speaker 2: don't know, I'm still like I have a thing with Trello. Okay, 713 00:37:16,120 --> 00:37:19,520 Speaker 2: partying words for women of color who are wanting to 714 00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:22,040 Speaker 2: become bosses in their own right any like final words 715 00:37:22,080 --> 00:37:24,200 Speaker 2: and then let everybody know how they can find you. 716 00:37:24,280 --> 00:37:27,360 Speaker 1: Final words would be you are sufficient, you have it, 717 00:37:27,640 --> 00:37:30,759 Speaker 1: give yourself the luxury of stepping back, of having some 718 00:37:30,880 --> 00:37:33,760 Speaker 1: quiet time, having that blank space, and you will notice 719 00:37:33,800 --> 00:37:36,520 Speaker 1: that the answers are in there, just waiting to come out. 720 00:37:36,680 --> 00:37:38,839 Speaker 1: You just haven't given them permission to come out yet. 721 00:37:38,880 --> 00:37:41,239 Speaker 1: How people can find me? The best would be to 722 00:37:41,239 --> 00:37:44,600 Speaker 1: go to my website, which is sabinanoas dot com. I'm 723 00:37:44,600 --> 00:37:47,839 Speaker 1: sure it'll be in your show notes and you'll find 724 00:37:47,840 --> 00:37:50,080 Speaker 1: a link to ordering the book, but you'll also be 725 00:37:50,080 --> 00:37:53,640 Speaker 1: able to download some bonuses that come with ordering the book, 726 00:37:53,840 --> 00:37:56,520 Speaker 1: or sign up for my substack pressure Free, which is 727 00:37:56,600 --> 00:37:59,840 Speaker 1: again on my website, where you can get additional tips 728 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:02,719 Speaker 1: on how to not pressure free. Did I say pressure fee, 729 00:38:02,800 --> 00:38:04,240 Speaker 1: not pressure pressure proof? 730 00:38:04,760 --> 00:38:08,719 Speaker 2: Pressure proof? Right? Don't forget your own tagline? I know, right, 731 00:38:10,200 --> 00:38:13,560 Speaker 2: that's a funny human Yeah, yeah, I said the same 732 00:38:13,560 --> 00:38:16,719 Speaker 2: thing with like negotiating, I said, like, not to be 733 00:38:16,760 --> 00:38:19,759 Speaker 2: fearless about negotiating, but fear proof, Like the fear is 734 00:38:19,760 --> 00:38:22,439 Speaker 2: going to be there, you just have to cope with it. 735 00:38:22,760 --> 00:38:26,120 Speaker 1: Exactly exactly. I mean, that's the definition of courage, isn't it. 736 00:38:26,400 --> 00:38:28,279 Speaker 1: Courage is not when your heart is not pounding. It's 737 00:38:28,320 --> 00:38:30,360 Speaker 1: when your heart is pounding and you're still going forward. 738 00:38:30,960 --> 00:38:34,240 Speaker 2: M we didn't even get into negotiating. Maybe another interview 739 00:38:34,400 --> 00:38:36,799 Speaker 2: another time. I can't wait to share this book with 740 00:38:36,960 --> 00:38:39,759 Speaker 2: my community with BA fam. Here it is again. You're 741 00:38:39,800 --> 00:38:42,400 Speaker 2: the boss, Sabina Noaz, thank you so much for joining 742 00:38:42,400 --> 00:38:43,400 Speaker 2: me on Brown Ambition. 743 00:38:44,160 --> 00:38:51,240 Speaker 1: Thank you, Mandy, thank you