Speaker 1: He can be angry at an addict all you want,
Speaker 1: but if you choose to do it that way, you're
Speaker 1: never going to be able to open their eyes.
Speaker 2: Lava for good and stand together. Music Present The War
Speaker 2: on Drugs Podcast Season two. This season, we're diving deeper
Speaker 2: into the real stories behind the War on Drugs, its impact,
Speaker 2: its failures, and the people offering a better path forward
Speaker 2: today on the show. Lead singer and songwriter of multi
Speaker 2: platinum rock band Shine Down, authors of nineteen number one
Speaker 2: hits on the Billboard Mainstream Rock Charts, the most ever,
Speaker 2: including Atlas Falls, Save Me and Second Chance.
Speaker 3: Outspoken mental health.
Speaker 2: Advocate Brent Smith, and his longtime manager, friend and confidant,
Speaker 2: acclaimed record promoter and manager Bill mcgaffe. All right, yeah,
Speaker 2: another episode War on drug season two.
Speaker 4: Yes, real people, real stories, real solutions.
Speaker 5: And the real Clayton English, the real Greg. There we go.
Speaker 4: Yeah, not the AI version, no, which probably would be
Speaker 4: next season.
Speaker 3: We get like one hundred and fifty organs.
Speaker 4: This is what they've been doing. This is why they
Speaker 4: put their face mapping us right.
Speaker 2: Now probably, But anyway, Yeah, amazing interview. I got I
Speaker 2: did this one solo. I saw Brent Smith and his
Speaker 2: his manager Bill mcgathe. Brent is from a Shinedown, one
Speaker 2: of the most successful bands of all time, and they
Speaker 2: were getting ready to gear up for a show that
Speaker 2: they're going to do later on at MSG, so we
Speaker 2: were able to catch him up there and it was
Speaker 2: a great, great conversation.
Speaker 4: Uh.
Speaker 2: You know, he's one of literally one of the biggest
Speaker 2: stars in the world, and he is the most humble,
Speaker 2: you know, honest, like just content, just an amazing person.
Speaker 2: You know, there is this story that comes up and
Speaker 2: it really feels like, you know, this kind of Hollywood
Speaker 2: story of you know, Brent staring down you know, success
Speaker 2: and fame potentially or is he can allow this addiction
Speaker 2: to maybe you know, you know, divert his career. And
Speaker 2: again it's addiction coming in all shapes and forms and
Speaker 2: what recovery is for some and what it is and
Speaker 2: for others. I don't want to give much away, but
Speaker 2: it really is one of these like really really cool
Speaker 2: short that I had no idea about and so can't
Speaker 2: wait for y'all to listen to it. And without any
Speaker 2: further ado, Brent.
Speaker 4: Smith, Hey there, me and Greg, our guests and sponsors
Speaker 4: may sound smart, We may even make some good points,
Speaker 4: but at the end of the day, we're not medical
Speaker 4: profession Okay, Please don't get your medical advice from a podcast.
Speaker 4: Anything we say on here does not constitute official medical advice. Relax,
Speaker 4: consult your doctor before you start any new treatment plans.
Speaker 2: Got it, Okay, Welcome back to the War on Drugs.
Speaker 2: We have some very special guests here. Brent Smith, creator Shindown.
Speaker 2: Being a thirty seven year old kid from the suburbs,
Speaker 2: Shinedown was a big part of my childhood growing up
Speaker 2: and throughout the year, So welcome to the show and
Speaker 2: rate of promotion legend Bill mccathe's here as well, and
Speaker 2: so thank you all for coming to the War on
Speaker 2: Drugs podcast.
Speaker 5: I appreciate it, happy to be here.
Speaker 6: You're very welcome.
Speaker 3: First album comes out in two thousand and one.
Speaker 5: Is that right? Is the debut album circulated?
Speaker 1: I think that it was, Yeah, roughly two thousand and one,
Speaker 1: two thousand and two.
Speaker 5: I'd have to go.
Speaker 1: Back and like check whatever. Yeah, yeah, yeah, I mean
Speaker 1: the first album I think it was.
Speaker 5: Was it last year? Yeah? Last year?
Speaker 1: So no, it would have been two thousand and three
Speaker 1: because it had its twenty year anniversary last year.
Speaker 2: It was like at Deluxe ou I remember, yeah yeah
Speaker 2: Spotify Yeah okay, yeah, yeah, that's right, okay, oh yeah,
Speaker 2: so yeah, that'd be twenty years from there. And so
Speaker 2: so you all toureds immensely. I was kind of like
Speaker 2: three year stuff like, I mean, it was over two
Speaker 2: hundred gigs a year. I might probably under selling it
Speaker 2: at this point.
Speaker 1: No, I mean that's what that's we had to do that,
Speaker 1: you know, I mean it was all built off I
Speaker 1: mean honestly, man, it was built off of the radio
Speaker 1: and just relentless touring like to the point. But you're young,
Speaker 1: your twenties, you're in your twenty and you know, we
Speaker 1: weren't shy like with the work ethic, right. We were
Speaker 1: definitely on drugs, yeah, and a lot of them, but
Speaker 1: you could have never said that we were lazy.
Speaker 2: Two hundred so much shows and travel and obviously you're
Speaker 2: getting off. It's not like you're in private jets or anything.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming tour bus and and all that.
Speaker 3: And so was drugs.
Speaker 2: And alcohol a big part of kind of that early
Speaker 2: start before y'all started to make it.
Speaker 3: Yeah, and then how did it kind of change when.
Speaker 2: Resources start to come You're going through this their success,
Speaker 2: there's probably there's you know, there's every vice that you'd
Speaker 2: ever want, it's women, booze or anything. Do you feel
Speaker 2: that was just kind of the ramp up, like the
Speaker 2: availability and everything, or was it more now looking back,
Speaker 2: is it the stress of the situation?
Speaker 3: Yeah, kind of like thirty thousand foot perspective. Yeah, yeah.
Speaker 2: How do you think that like change crossover when you
Speaker 2: guys started to make it or at least get some recognition, notoriety.
Speaker 1: I think what happened was that there for a minute
Speaker 1: in the beginning, it was fun and then it got
Speaker 1: then it got not fun, it got deadly. And also,
Speaker 1: I will be honest with you, like we were on
Speaker 1: a trajectory. Someone once told me, they said, you have
Speaker 1: your whole life to make your first record, and then
Speaker 1: if that first album is successful, you're going to get
Speaker 1: six months to do your next one.
Speaker 5: And it was the speed.
Speaker 1: Of which, like honestly, the drugs and the gasoline of
Speaker 1: the you know in the diesel, you know, of the
Speaker 1: alcohol it fueled like you can't slow down, you can't stop,
Speaker 1: Like we got to get in because the first record
Speaker 1: was successful, by a lot of people's surprise.
Speaker 5: If you will.
Speaker 1: But it was just out of pure tenacity that we
Speaker 1: made it successful. And then the second record it was
Speaker 1: exactly that. It was about six months like get in there,
Speaker 1: get it done, get back out on the road. So
Speaker 1: the drugs were the fuel inside of that too, not
Speaker 1: all the time, but like all of a sudden, it
Speaker 1: became not fun. And the other thing that was happening
Speaker 1: was all these bands. Me and Bill were talking. Me
Speaker 1: and Bill were talking about this the other day. There
Speaker 1: were so many great bands, dude, that came out during
Speaker 1: like two thousand and three to two thousand and six.
Speaker 1: They're not a band anymore because a lot of them died. Yeah,
Speaker 1: they died of overdoses, man.
Speaker 2: And that was I mean, right during the opioid epidemic,
Speaker 2: as it's ramping up, like oxyconton, We're starting to come
Speaker 2: come into play and then so I'm sure that was
Speaker 2: a huge part of it.
Speaker 7: I could name the artists that we were working with
Speaker 7: tourm with that they went in to get them for
Speaker 7: sound check and they were dead in their bunk.
Speaker 5: Dude. It was brutal, and I mean it was it was.
Speaker 1: And so then you're dealing with this whole thing of
Speaker 1: like your friends. You're watching them just I mean, and
Speaker 1: they did. They were like dropping like flies. But then
Speaker 1: I look at myself in the mirror, and you know,
Speaker 1: I'm still snorting cocain, yeah, you know, or I'm still
Speaker 1: and I was massive.
Speaker 3: When drugs are we talking about?
Speaker 5: It was massively addicted to oxycon.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 5: I was doing four.
Speaker 1: Hundred milligram up my nose a night by two thousand
Speaker 1: and five, two thousand and six. It was not pretty, yeah,
Speaker 1: you know. And inside of this it became something where
Speaker 1: you could take like a two week break sometimes and
Speaker 1: you can kind of get yourself together and you'd sober
Speaker 1: up for a minute, and then you get back out
Speaker 1: into the lifestyle and it's right there, right there. It
Speaker 1: doesn't go anywhere, and then all of a sudden, you're
Speaker 1: starting to get recognition.
Speaker 5: I always made a point though, about something specifically.
Speaker 1: I never went into a studio session high, Like I
Speaker 1: never got up on a microphone when I'm in there
Speaker 1: to like sing the actual track and when I'm writing
Speaker 1: the material.
Speaker 5: I was never I was never high in sessions.
Speaker 1: But I used to have this idea that I had
Speaker 1: to be I used to think I have to be
Speaker 1: messed up in order to write messed up songs or
Speaker 1: like this really heavy subject matter and what have you.
Speaker 3: I got to put myself in that owl.
Speaker 1: Now, I got put myself into it because I got
Speaker 1: to live it in order to be able to talk
Speaker 1: about it.
Speaker 2: Was that kind of an used to feel justified in
Speaker 2: doing it, or more so, he felt like it was helping.
Speaker 5: It definitely wasn't helping.
Speaker 7: That's a combination that's called rationalization. But we are closer,
Speaker 7: I would think than most artists and managers. I mean,
Speaker 7: because he's more than an artist on my roster. He's
Speaker 7: helped me. He's my partner, he's my best friend. I
Speaker 7: love him, you know, he's my brother, he's you know,
Speaker 7: and I don't even care how he looks at me.
Speaker 7: Sometimes I feel like he looks at me like I'm
Speaker 7: an older brother. Sometimes I think he looks at me
Speaker 7: as maybe kind of a dad, you know.
Speaker 5: Maybe I always look up to him though.
Speaker 3: Yeah, either way, either way, I was.
Speaker 6: Yeah, I had no idea he was doing that much.
Speaker 3: I was gonna say, but did you see anything?
Speaker 1: Well he came to Los Angeles during the sound of
Speaker 1: Madness album and saved my life.
Speaker 2: Okay, yeah, let's let's talk about Yeah, so there's there's
Speaker 2: a moment here. Let's talk about that. Oh you're flying
Speaker 2: in there. What did you see when you were Well?
Speaker 7: What I started with was I got a call from
Speaker 7: an incredible friend of ours and he called me. And
Speaker 7: it wasn't like, hey, listen, man, you know we got
Speaker 7: a little trouble here in the camp.
Speaker 6: I need you to get down here.
Speaker 7: He literally shrieked at me, get your ass to Los Angeles.
Speaker 7: He said, you're guitar player ode and fell off his stool.
Speaker 7: He said, I don't know what's going on with Brent,
Speaker 7: but they are messed up, right, And so then I
Speaker 7: immediately went to my wife and said, well, you know this,
Speaker 7: I got to go. So I booked a ticket that afternoon,
Speaker 7: flew to Los Angeles and I got there just in
Speaker 7: time too, because you'd had that situation with the rental
Speaker 7: car and you sideswiped like three.
Speaker 5: Cars, three part cars.
Speaker 1: He was going to Chris Lord Algae's studio to listen
Speaker 1: to a mix and I hit three part cars because
Speaker 1: I was high.
Speaker 5: I ran, I ran a red light.
Speaker 6: He was so high.
Speaker 7: But yet he is so good a functioning addict, right,
Speaker 7: He was so good with his words and always husband
Speaker 7: that he had talked to police out of.
Speaker 5: Uh going to jail doing what police do.
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, getting away with hitting three part cars. Yeah,
Speaker 3: that's that's yeah.
Speaker 1: Way like it sounds very rock and roll and it
Speaker 1: sounds like, you know, kind of you know, cinematic in
Speaker 1: a way.
Speaker 5: Dude, I could have killed someone. Yeah, you know what
Speaker 5: I mean. When I think about it now, I'm in
Speaker 5: awe that a lot.
Speaker 1: Of times too, that that I've been so lucky to
Speaker 1: still be here. But you know, the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter was that that was a real thing that happened.
Speaker 1: And the other side of that, though, is that's when
Speaker 1: Bill got out there, and what it was was it
Speaker 1: was more of you know, I looked at Bill as
Speaker 1: I felt like everybody was a narc and Bill didn't
Speaker 1: come out there with an attitude where he was pointing
Speaker 1: a finger at me. He was more like, Hey, I
Speaker 1: got an idea. Let's take tomorrow off, but let's take
Speaker 1: it off, meaning like, let's not drink, let's not do
Speaker 1: anything like that. Let me take you out to lunch,
Speaker 1: Let's go out to Santa Monica, we'll go shopping, or
Speaker 1: we'll just get out, you know, what I mean, And
Speaker 1: he just he was able to treat me in a
Speaker 1: way where he wasn't coming out there to you know,
Speaker 1: be angry at me per se. He was trying to
Speaker 1: also figure out what was actually happening because.
Speaker 5: He knew there was a lot riding on this.
Speaker 1: And I think Bill understood that this was the best
Speaker 1: music that a he had heard from any of the
Speaker 1: artists on his roster.
Speaker 7: No doubt, but but second chance.
Speaker 5: You know, there were seven singles off a sound the Madness.
Speaker 1: But he was also like, none of this matters if
Speaker 1: he's dead, right, you know what I mean? So we
Speaker 1: got to figure out how to do this in a
Speaker 1: way where we can actually bring him to the forefront,
Speaker 1: meaning me, and get me help and you know, understand
Speaker 1: what's actually going on here, because you can be angry
Speaker 1: at an addict all you want, but if you if
Speaker 1: you choose to do it that way, you're never going
Speaker 1: to be able to open and open their eyes.
Speaker 5: And so he really treated me as best he could.
Speaker 1: Understanding also too, I remember one night you said to me,
Speaker 1: you were like, this has got to be hard, Like
Speaker 1: you got all these people that need you to be great,
Speaker 1: They need you.
Speaker 5: Everyone's waiting on you to be brilliant.
Speaker 6: It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 5: It's a lot of pressure.
Speaker 1: And nobody had said it to me like that, because
Speaker 1: I hadn't complained about that, but that was how I felt.
Speaker 1: I was just like, I am not used to being
Speaker 1: in this situation. I don't know, I had a handle.
Speaker 2: This, and you just you're frying your nerve an. I
Speaker 2: was just scared, right, yeah, you know, because I didn't
Speaker 2: let anybody down.
Speaker 1: And at the same time I was numbing not only
Speaker 1: my body but like my mind's eye, if you will,
Speaker 1: and then waking up with a hangover, you know, feeling
Speaker 1: like I was ten steps back. And what he was
Speaker 1: trying to do was say, you gotta You've got to
Speaker 1: breathe and make a decision. I'm not saying that you
Speaker 1: got to be one hundred percent sober, but if you
Speaker 1: continue being as you know, messed up as you are,
Speaker 1: you're not going to make a kid.
Speaker 5: Yeah, And was that you have to make a decision?
Speaker 2: Was there some apprehension or reticence to be like, hey, fuck,
Speaker 2: like I'm I understand what you're saying, but like we're
Speaker 2: making tracks here, Like what was that interaction? Like what
Speaker 2: was your response to him, and almost got about it.
Speaker 5: We had we almost got shelved.
Speaker 6: Yeah, we did.
Speaker 7: Oh no shit, yeah, and our guy and he wanted
Speaker 7: to do the right thing. So when we came with
Speaker 7: the sound of man As it was all his brilliant album,
Speaker 7: and we played it and I watched the reaction in
Speaker 7: the room as we always do, and I could tell
Speaker 7: that they got it big time right. But as we
Speaker 7: were walking out of a Man, I don't know whether
Speaker 7: I should tell this, but I guess I'm gonna.
Speaker 5: I mean, it's a real it really happened.
Speaker 7: So I knew all the timing was right, the touring,
Speaker 7: everything was going to come together and we were going to.
Speaker 6: Blow the band up. And it was a moment he says.
Speaker 7: We're on the seventy second floor of the rock building
Speaker 7: and he were standing outside by the window and he said, well,
Speaker 7: that's all well and good.
Speaker 6: We're green led. He said, I'm going to shelve the
Speaker 6: album and we're going to put Brend into rehab.
Speaker 7: And I looked at him and I said, what did
Speaker 7: you just say?
Speaker 6: I said, because you.
Speaker 2: Have a two hundred city tour and you have all that, Yeah,
Speaker 2: you're already in the.
Speaker 6: Ad playing everything.
Speaker 7: I said, hey, man, you're trying to prove your life
Speaker 7: insurance is paid up, because I will throw you through
Speaker 7: that fucking window.
Speaker 1: Here's the thing, it's one of the most like for
Speaker 1: me personally. I'm sitting there. You know, look, man, he
Speaker 1: he cleaned me up.
Speaker 5: This is like when he came out, he literally saved
Speaker 5: my life. He really really did. You know.
Speaker 1: He got me focused to get into New York from
Speaker 1: la you know, put me in a really really nice suit,
Speaker 1: cleaned me up, walked me in there.
Speaker 5: He knew what he was up against.
Speaker 1: Also, because the thing is is like people may hear
Speaker 1: this and be like, well, that's a you know, a
Speaker 1: manager for you. You got to understand it's not a
Speaker 1: one way street. I have to be in this as well,
Speaker 1: just like he has to be in it. And there's
Speaker 1: other people involved.
Speaker 5: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: Like, the music business is not for everyone. And I
Speaker 1: often will tell people it's called the music business industry
Speaker 1: for a reason.
Speaker 5: The word business is in the title.
Speaker 1: Music's in it too, But it's a business, okay, And
Speaker 1: there's people's you know, jobs, careers. Everything's on the line,
Speaker 1: especially when you make an album and you have to
Speaker 1: have the foresight to kind of have an instinct in
Speaker 1: a crystal ball like what the next two years could
Speaker 1: be or could not be? And again, who is a
Speaker 1: legend in the industry and who is one of the
Speaker 1: reasons why I'm in the music industry twenty years in
Speaker 1: the game, you know. But he was in a position
Speaker 1: where he was looking at his friend and he was
Speaker 1: just like, I gotta get you.
Speaker 5: I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2: He's probably seen it, you know what I mean. Yeah,
Speaker 2: I don't have like flashbacks of that. Yeah, he's like,
Speaker 2: I don't want you to die, you know.
Speaker 1: But in the meantime, also too, me and Bill are
Speaker 1: talking to one another about these things and what have you.
Speaker 1: And what Bill is trying to do is also as
Speaker 1: my manager and you know, me as the artist.
Speaker 5: He's trying to decide whether or not he believes.
Speaker 1: Me when I tell him I'm not gonna let him
Speaker 1: down right like, because he's like, as your manager, my
Speaker 1: artist is telling me that they got it.
Speaker 5: I'm going to side with my artist always, you know.
Speaker 3: And you're and you're on the line too, You're out here,
Speaker 3: you're vouching for.
Speaker 7: This played about him too, but shoving his album wasn't
Speaker 7: gonna save his life.
Speaker 3: May have gone the other right with him, Yeah, exactly
Speaker 3: for you.
Speaker 2: Hearing Bill kind of blow, I don't know, I'd be like, wow,
Speaker 2: this guy really does did that help?
Speaker 3: Kind of?
Speaker 2: It's almost like a Hollywood script, like the fact you're
Speaker 2: in this record room, the huge table, Riley like you
Speaker 2: need to get your shit together, Like do you think
Speaker 2: that would have been enough? Or was it Bill fighting
Speaker 2: for you? Like what do you think was going on?
Speaker 2: He's like, what was your next hour after that?
Speaker 4: Yeah?
Speaker 3: Yeah, talk about that process.
Speaker 2: I'm I'm just curious, like in a room of executives,
Speaker 2: having your manager, where you're at this critical moment you're
Speaker 2: scream at someone threatened through out the window. Was that
Speaker 2: something I was like, this guy really believes in me,
Speaker 2: this is something? Or was that already taken care of.
Speaker 2: I'm just fascinated with that.
Speaker 1: I think another part of my brain was born, if
Speaker 1: that makes any sense, Like there was another there was
Speaker 1: another section that had not been realized, and with that moment,
Speaker 1: like there was another part of my psyche that was born,
Speaker 1: where all of a sudden it really became Yes, I'm
Speaker 1: an artist, but I have certain people around me that
Speaker 1: need me to be at all times at my highest level.
Speaker 1: And so if anything, I think that he helped me
Speaker 1: find another gear in my work ethic from that moment.
Speaker 6: But it was by osmosis. It was organic.
Speaker 7: It wasn't like me saying well no, it wasn't very organic,
Speaker 7: threatening to throw the guy out the one in by
Speaker 7: the way.
Speaker 6: He didn't forgive me right away.
Speaker 5: I took a minute.
Speaker 7: It took a couple of years, but it's okay because
Speaker 7: we got it straight down. And I love the guy
Speaker 7: and he loves Sprinton, you know, but I just knew
Speaker 7: that that wasn't the answer.
Speaker 2: Right again, you were making some of the best media
Speaker 2: you ever made in your life, like at kind.
Speaker 3: Of the worst, at the lowest lows. It's a weird dynamic.
Speaker 1: No, what I will tell you is like, and I
Speaker 1: know this from firsthand experience. You know, this younger generation,
Speaker 1: you know, they look at it and they're like, yeah,
Speaker 1: but you had your fun and you're telling me not
Speaker 1: to have mine.
Speaker 5: And I'm like, because I don't want you to die.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, like you, I mean, like your story is
Speaker 2: kind of like, hey, you had this thing, and do
Speaker 2: you want to be rich and famous or not?
Speaker 3: You're like, oh, I picked this and got it.
Speaker 5: It's about being rich.
Speaker 1: It's just about being being alive, and you want to
Speaker 1: be alive.
Speaker 2: But it's for for a lot of people probably listening
Speaker 2: to your point, it's like it almost sound easy, like
Speaker 2: oh yeah, you've got to have your wounds and your
Speaker 2: scars and hahaha, now we get to laugh about it.
Speaker 3: Now you're you're doing. But that's not the.
Speaker 1: Because I also, you know, there there's also people in
Speaker 1: my life that meant the world to me and sorry, no,
Speaker 1: that's fine, they're gone. And that's the brutal part of it,
Speaker 1: because I can't talk to them anymore. And I don't
Speaker 1: mean to like just you know, rake the record here,
Speaker 1: you know, across the table. But that's the issue, is
Speaker 1: that I don't want people to ever feel that, you know,
Speaker 1: drug addiction should be glorified, because it's a nightmare, and
Speaker 1: not only that, it's a nightmare for all the people
Speaker 1: that are around it. And I know that it gets stigmatized,
Speaker 1: and I know that, you know, we we should be
Speaker 1: looking at.
Speaker 5: A better way to treat addicts.
Speaker 1: You know, throw them in a cage doesn't necessarily create sobriety,
Speaker 1: you know, it creates you know, anger, frustration, and get
Speaker 1: me out of here so I can get high.
Speaker 5: You know what I mean.
Speaker 1: If you don't give people an understanding that hey, you're
Speaker 1: gonna have to build out a different skill set to
Speaker 1: handle this. Some people don't have to go to rehab.
Speaker 1: Some people need a twelve step and because they need
Speaker 1: that accountability. There's not a one size fits all for addiction,
Speaker 1: right it Really there's no way of handling it because the.
Speaker 2: Underlying issues are completely different for everyone. It could be
Speaker 2: from you know, sexual, it could be from hereditary, could
Speaker 2: be it's all these different things. But the one thing
Speaker 2: it isn't as a bad person. I think that's what
Speaker 2: we kind of do sometimes. Like so for example, say
Speaker 2: you didn't talk that cop out of it, and then
Speaker 2: you've got a DWY or DUY and then you had
Speaker 2: a criminal record, you spend some time, then you lost
Speaker 2: this record deal and then it went down the hill.
Speaker 2: I mean that could have been a story, and that's
Speaker 2: the story for a lot of people because the criminal justice.
Speaker 6: Doesn't act it's for a to losive record deal. But
Speaker 6: the timing would have been wrong.
Speaker 5: Yeah, would have been.
Speaker 3: Like a chance on there. Yeah, you'll figure it out
Speaker 3: chan you know it, but you all not.
Speaker 2: I guess for just the word had people around you
Speaker 2: to say you're you're valued and you're worth it. I
Speaker 2: don't think a lot of people have that, and you
Speaker 2: come knox was a little different than some southern towns
Speaker 2: because it's a college town and it's a little different.
Speaker 3: But I'm sure you said you have people love you.
Speaker 2: I'm sure there are a lot of parallel tracks for
Speaker 2: folks back there, particularly in rural areas that were you know,
Speaker 2: the opened epidemic hit so hard that didn't have that
Speaker 2: person in their lives or gotten the criminal justice has
Speaker 2: been too quickly, or didn't get to talk to some
Speaker 2: about the foundations of their addiction and it was too late.
Speaker 2: I'm assuming you've had stories like that. I'm assuming you have.
Speaker 2: Are you still dealing with that back home? Or like
Speaker 2: what does that look like for you now kind of
Speaker 2: posts we're not even out of the opiod addiction, but
Speaker 2: you know, post that, like coming down sober, Like what
Speaker 2: does that look like for you back in your your
Speaker 2: hometown and your friends and family.
Speaker 1: I Mean, the good thing about Theoxville is that Knoxville
Speaker 1: takes a lot of just that city in general really
Speaker 1: really focuses on getting people help and not necessarily you know,
Speaker 1: throwing them in jail and what have you.
Speaker 5: There's a lot of outreach there.
Speaker 1: The big thing about that city, you know, because of
Speaker 1: like you know, you you look at the kind of
Speaker 1: the geography of like Tennessee and the Southern states, you know, Appalachia,
Speaker 1: West Virginia. We all know what happened there with you know,
Speaker 1: the Sacklers and all that.
Speaker 5: You know, you know, I was in the midst of that.
Speaker 1: So like when I, I mean, Michael Keaton did that
Speaker 1: series on Hulu and I think I'm.
Speaker 5: Trying that it probably one of the best.
Speaker 1: If you wanted to see how it played out, I
Speaker 1: would tell you to go watch that, and it is
Speaker 1: worth watching it because they pretty much I lived that,
Speaker 1: like literally lived that.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 2: I love the focus they have on the sales aspect
Speaker 2: of it. The aggressiveness, yeah, telling people and yeah to
Speaker 2: go ahead.
Speaker 5: And another thing too. You know my friend Jelly roll
Speaker 5: Man when he you know, went to Washington. Shout out
Speaker 5: to jail Man because.
Speaker 1: Jelly went you know out there, you know, Senate, Congress,
Speaker 1: everything else and made a point, you know, with his
Speaker 1: celebrity and you know that he's really really he brings
Speaker 1: at the forefront. I mean, you talk about people that
Speaker 1: are necessary in the industry, man Jelly is definitely necessary
Speaker 1: because he's really he has a lot of experience with
Speaker 1: that as well. But you know, you've got artists now
Speaker 1: talking about what's actually going on in these rural areas
Speaker 1: and what's happening. But you know what needs to be
Speaker 1: focused on too, Like if you go into those towns
Speaker 1: even present day, you know, those towns.
Speaker 5: Are still destroyed because of this, Like it.
Speaker 1: Didn't leave some kind of wonderful way happy ending like
Speaker 1: and so what are you going to do about that?
Speaker 1: And and how can we you know, as a society,
Speaker 1: you know, really go back into these areas where people
Speaker 1: need some kind of assistance and some kind of help,
Speaker 1: because what's awful about it is like it just leaves.
Speaker 1: Especially the opioid you know, that epidemic is still there.
Speaker 1: Even though they've made they've changed the recipe for oxycotton,
Speaker 1: they've done all these things.
Speaker 5: Well that's all find and good.
Speaker 1: You still have just a wake of just heartbreak and
Speaker 1: there there are no flowers, you know what I mean,
Speaker 1: It's just decimated. So you have to be willing also
Speaker 1: to be able to look at how devastating it is
Speaker 1: in order to try to figure out a way to
Speaker 1: bring it back to life. So is there, you know,
Speaker 1: are we going to figure that out this afternoon. The
Speaker 1: fact that we're talking about it is really one of
Speaker 1: the steps to go to the forefront of that as well.
Speaker 1: And so I think the more that you're talking about it,
Speaker 1: the more that these areas people don't forget about them
Speaker 1: because you know, coming out of an election year and
Speaker 1: all these different things that are going on, everybody is
Speaker 1: in their own world.
Speaker 5: But you know, drug addiction. It's not bias, you know,
Speaker 5: and it.
Speaker 2: Can quote unquote happiest people.
Speaker 3: You know, they're they're dealing with it. Here's the clown
Speaker 3: type of thing.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And I think the big thing that like what
Speaker 1: I see also too right now as an artist, and
Speaker 1: is somebody that you know has had experience with this
Speaker 1: as well. You know, Look, I have a difference of
Speaker 1: opinion in some regards to.
Speaker 5: What I see with you know, how these new.
Speaker 1: I don't know if they're like test subjects or you know,
Speaker 1: there's a lot of new scientific evidence about like psilocybin
Speaker 1: and about NBMA and about marijuana and about you know,
Speaker 1: CBD and all these different things, and there's a whole
Speaker 1: lot of information, but sometimes I wonder, you know, is
Speaker 1: it skewed, has it been turned around?
Speaker 5: Has it like what is actually going to work for you?
Speaker 1: And you know, when you have a dilemma in there
Speaker 1: is for some people they're like, well that's a that's
Speaker 1: just an excuse for me to do drugs. Well, if
Speaker 1: there's an actual scientific study being done and there's a
Speaker 1: clinical research on it, that's fantastic, But is that being
Speaker 1: administered by professionals, right, as opposed to somebody that's like,
Speaker 1: well I'm I gonna go take a god dose and
Speaker 1: hopefully I don't jump off of a bill sing right.
Speaker 5: Well no, well yeah, you know what I mean.
Speaker 2: That's where kind of the illegality gets into it, because
Speaker 2: I've seen it. People go on both sides, like the
Speaker 2: people that are advocating for these types of things, and
Speaker 2: every want to say anything negative about it. Or I
Speaker 2: look at canvas sometimes like you're going into a smoke
Speaker 2: shop and if you're a young kid, everything's ninety five
Speaker 2: percent THC and all the it's like it's not great
Speaker 2: and we don't have a good knowledge about like how
Speaker 2: it impacts us, and it really is because yeah, the
Speaker 2: one side of the advocates they don't say the negative effects,
Speaker 2: and on the other side, it's only the negative effects.
Speaker 2: And because we don't have just like an objective stand.
Speaker 5: It also makes it difficult.
Speaker 2: It's this anecdote of like, yeah, i'm rubbing in I
Speaker 2: feel good, like when I we uh we interviewed to
Speaker 2: MMA fighter and when she's saying, like my joints and
Speaker 2: knees and hips when I rub CBD and I was
Speaker 2: able to fight into my forties, Like all right, I'm
Speaker 2: a believer.
Speaker 3: But yeah, that's right. That's not a people study either.
Speaker 2: And the illegality of it is some of the problem
Speaker 2: because we can't actually get social norms around this. With alcohol,
Speaker 2: we kind of at least know, like, you know, if
Speaker 2: you're doing a shot, it's about five ounces of wine,
Speaker 2: it's about a beer.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 2: We have no idea with cannabis or with psilocybin for
Speaker 2: are using a treatment stance. So then you go to
Speaker 2: different places and you start to try to self medicate
Speaker 2: without experts, and I think that's a problem with like
Speaker 2: where we're at as a social.
Speaker 5: And I also remember too, you know.
Speaker 1: And by the way, like I love Portland, Oregon, but
Speaker 1: the idea to legalize all drugs probably wouldn't a good idea.
Speaker 3: Particularly without the type of support systems.
Speaker 1: By the way, I believe, like don't quote me on it,
Speaker 1: but I believe all that's been retracted.
Speaker 3: They retracted it.
Speaker 2: Yeah, A lot of it is like the people on
Speaker 2: the ground and not potentially the policy, Like when you're
Speaker 2: not enforcing all the quality of life stuff that comes
Speaker 2: around with drug addiction, you know, fundraising for your drugs,
Speaker 2: drug dealing, stealing, robbing, when you're not dealing with those things,
Speaker 2: that's where the problems come. And it looked like a
Speaker 2: complete divorce of law enforcement and doing this. And that's
Speaker 2: that's not empathy either, when you see people on the
Speaker 2: streets and things like that just doing stuff and it's
Speaker 2: not good for your community either. Snow, I totally agree
Speaker 2: with you, Like there has to be that balance, right.
Speaker 1: The last time I was in Portland, Oregon, I had
Speaker 1: a day off there. We were touring and we finished
Speaker 1: the tour there, so I stayed an extra day. I
Speaker 1: usually stay when we finish up a legatur I'll stay
Speaker 1: whatever city I'm in for like twenty four or forty
Speaker 1: eight hours. I will never forget going downtown because I
Speaker 1: hadn't seen downtown Portland in a minute, and there was
Speaker 1: a couple at a little child and stroller, and I
Speaker 1: just remember being across the street and watching them kind
Speaker 1: of go by.
Speaker 5: But at the same time, I'm watching a.
Speaker 1: Young man that looks all of maybe eighteen years old
Speaker 1: shoot heroin in broad day, So I was like, well,
Speaker 1: that's different, you know. So yeah, like things like that
Speaker 1: that I just don't think that should be quote unquote normalized.
Speaker 3: I totally agree.
Speaker 1: I think that's because that what that kid is shooting
Speaker 1: up is not going to enhance his life and.
Speaker 5: Will probably end it. I hope that's not what happened
Speaker 5: to him.
Speaker 1: But like the fact of the matter is like that
Speaker 1: whole like, let's be inclusive and all that. I mean,
Speaker 1: I understand what you're doing by trying to make everyone
Speaker 1: not feel like that they're in a safe space, but
Speaker 1: come back to reality.
Speaker 5: You're gonna do that.
Speaker 1: You got to remember You've got to also give certain
Speaker 1: people the benefit of the doubt. Right they say I
Speaker 1: need to go to rehab, That's probably a good thing
Speaker 1: because they know they got an issue. But if somebody
Speaker 1: is like, I'm not going to rehab, but I'm gonna
Speaker 1: kick it, just so you have to kind of make
Speaker 1: a decision who you believe who you don't, right, And.
Speaker 2: That's the problem with a lot of our mechanisms. They
Speaker 2: don't have that type of flexibility. Like you said, it's
Speaker 2: a one size fits all box. Maybe you go to
Speaker 2: some drug court that if you have to go through
Speaker 2: the criminal justice system and then you fail once and
Speaker 2: then it's like are now you're back in the can?
Speaker 2: Like So that's why I agree it's so critical to
Speaker 2: show both sides of this, like, hey, this isn't just
Speaker 2: some thing it's going to alter you. It's going to
Speaker 2: do X, it's going to do why we have to
Speaker 2: do those types of things, and we just don't have.
Speaker 3: That societal norm or culture or education about it.
Speaker 1: But by the way, I'm gonna say this, like specifically
Speaker 1: with like psychedelics, like there is some profound profound like
Speaker 1: literal evidence if it's administered by professionals, like literally specifically
Speaker 1: for the military, like it it's extraordinary where like they
Speaker 1: are finding that people that have just lived in terror
Speaker 1: from what they've seen in war, you know, they administer it.
Speaker 5: Sometimes it's just one session.
Speaker 2: Yeah, it's reversing severe PTSD, like we're talking about like
Speaker 2: I feel better.
Speaker 3: It's like oh no, yeah, it's crazy literally.
Speaker 1: Like where you know, they just they understand it, like
Speaker 1: something is something that is happening in the psilocybin and
Speaker 1: how it's reacting, which by the way, has been around
Speaker 1: for you know, I don't know however forever. You know,
Speaker 1: when you see hieroglyphics and things like that and they
Speaker 1: have you know, they'll pull back and they can actually
Speaker 1: see these drawings, you know, in stones where.
Speaker 3: Literally a little I was burning something.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Yeah, And but the thing is is that when I
Speaker 1: see like real, you know, clinical evidence where if this
Speaker 1: is administered professionally, this can actually save people's lives or
Speaker 1: if anything, get them to a place where they don't
Speaker 1: fear being alive on a daily basis because they don't
Speaker 1: know if they're going to be subjected to flashbacks for
Speaker 1: the rest of their lives exactly.
Speaker 2: Or be a danger to someone else in their family.
Speaker 2: Like it's it's themselves for themselves. Yeah, maps, We spoke
Speaker 2: with someone there and they're the ones that do a
Speaker 2: lot of the clinical trials, and they had like a
Speaker 2: third face clinical trial that was going to go up
Speaker 2: tefty approval.
Speaker 3: The FDA just shut that down not a month ago.
Speaker 5: Yeah, I don't agree with ridiculous.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I don't agree with that excited the hollucygenic effects
Speaker 2: as one of the negatives for doing It's like, well,
Speaker 2: this is kind of the point.
Speaker 1: There was one individual and I wish I could figure
Speaker 1: it out off the top of my head, but like
Speaker 1: they did it before and after, and it was kind of.
Speaker 5: What you just said.
Speaker 1: They literally went into the session and it was with
Speaker 1: psilocybin and it was administered, you know, with two different people.
Speaker 1: There was like a shaman and then there were two
Speaker 1: like clinical doctors and they He was in the midst
Speaker 1: of a of a trial on this and he went
Speaker 1: in and he said after he came out of it
Speaker 1: that he had not voices.
Speaker 5: In his head anymore. He just had a voice say
Speaker 5: let it go.
Speaker 1: It's amazing, Like all the voices back before were like
Speaker 1: it's never going to end.
Speaker 5: You're always gonna feel like this. You know, you killed
Speaker 5: all these people.
Speaker 1: Like what people don't understand what military, like, what people
Speaker 1: go through when they're in war.
Speaker 5: You know, but it was one of.
Speaker 1: Those things where I like, all of the voices that
Speaker 1: I had in my head were silenced by just one
Speaker 1: voice that said let it go. And he's like, and
Speaker 1: I don't hear that voice either anymore. I just like
Speaker 1: I was like, I was assured that I could let
Speaker 1: it go, and then that guy went on and he
Speaker 1: was like, he's like, it's.
Speaker 5: Saved my life. You know, that's profound.
Speaker 6: That is profound.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just you have auto red tape in government
Speaker 1: and just you know, everyone's trying to figure out what's
Speaker 1: the right thing to do. Nobody wants to be liable,
Speaker 1: but hey, we're here, we're alive. We should be figuring
Speaker 1: this out.
Speaker 2: Yeah, particularly when you see the things that we're trying
Speaker 2: to do or just not being as effective, you know,
Speaker 2: with drugs and things like that. And that's a lot
Speaker 2: of the veterans where they're like, yeah, VA just gave
Speaker 2: me a bunch of pills and I don't want to
Speaker 2: take them. But yeah, yeah, I know we're kind of
Speaker 2: coming a time and I want to appreciate you all.
Speaker 2: I just had one last question. You all have been
Speaker 2: in the music industry and together for so long. I
Speaker 2: think we've all kind of learned that kind of like
Speaker 2: love and communication and talking and having people around you,
Speaker 2: and this of course is so critical to kind of
Speaker 2: move through this. Have you seen a change in kind
Speaker 2: of people feeling more comfortable opening up talking about this?
Speaker 2: What have you seen change in kind of your industry?
Speaker 2: And where do you think we still need to kind
Speaker 2: of be here?
Speaker 5: Where are You're?
Speaker 2: Like?
Speaker 3: Man, I wish I had that when I was younger.
Speaker 2: Wish I had this to kind of help along, like
Speaker 2: what do you what do you think that kind of
Speaker 2: last last positive words?
Speaker 5: Good at you bell, wow, no pressure, you know, I.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I just think it's up to the individual to
Speaker 7: try and help where you can. And I agree with
Speaker 7: Brent though. The thing I worry about is I wouldn't
Speaker 7: be worried if someone in my family said I want
Speaker 7: to do drugs. I'd be worried that they would get
Speaker 7: the wrong drug, you know, because you don't get a
Speaker 7: second chance on that. And it's so complicated. But I
Speaker 7: think there's some really good aspects if it's administered by
Speaker 7: a professional.
Speaker 1: But another thing inside of all that is honestly about communication.
Speaker 1: I mean the band that I'm in, you know, we've
Speaker 1: been working with the AFSP for the better part of
Speaker 1: you know, a decade and a half, which is the
Speaker 1: American Foundation for Suicide Prevention. And the fact of the
Speaker 1: matter is we tell people all the time the number
Speaker 1: one thing that you have to focus on and work
Speaker 1: at is remember, the worst thing you can do is
Speaker 1: be quiet, Like you got to talk about it, and
Speaker 1: you got to like put it out there in the open,
Speaker 1: to have a dialogue and to understand things and the
Speaker 1: other side of it too. I think that, you know,
Speaker 1: if I can give anybody at least my personal experience
Speaker 1: with all of these subject matters and what have you,
Speaker 1: something for me personally that helped me immensely was when
Speaker 1: I learned, you know, how important real supplementation is as
Speaker 1: you get older, and real exercises and how it can
Speaker 1: completely change your life. And now some people will say,
Speaker 1: like I don't have time, Yeah you do. There's twenty
Speaker 1: four hours in a day. You can carve out an hour,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean? And I think, honestly, conversation, dialogue,
Speaker 1: you know, trying to focus on bettering yourself as much
Speaker 1: as you possibly can. I mean, one thing in the
Speaker 1: music industry that me and Bill have always been. I
Speaker 1: would like to think that has been something that we've
Speaker 1: always been meticulous about with people, is the gratitude of
Speaker 1: you know what, be be genuinely happy for somebody else's success,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean. Like, especially in this industry,
Speaker 1: it's really and I mean that like and that's.
Speaker 5: Really really important.
Speaker 1: You know, we're all dealing with things, we all have families,
Speaker 1: we all have issues, you know, and you never know
Speaker 1: what somebody's going through, and so just be kind when
Speaker 1: you can.
Speaker 5: It takes so much more energy.
Speaker 1: To be rude or you know, pardon my French, but
Speaker 1: to just be an asshole.
Speaker 3: Yeah.
Speaker 1: Like, it's a much easier process in life of trying
Speaker 1: to build out as much of a positive you know,
Speaker 1: or a positivity the outcome and lift people up instead
Speaker 1: of tearing them down. And that's how I would look
Speaker 1: at at anything, like we're all on this planet together,
Speaker 1: we should be taken care of one another. You will
Speaker 1: have such more harmony in your life, I promise you.
Speaker 2: You see people you both look healthy and happy and
Speaker 2: like Serene, the people I've met that have your attitude
Speaker 2: as they get older, there is a youthfulness that still
Speaker 2: like glows in them and I think there's something with
Speaker 2: that as well, like just being happy for other people,
Speaker 2: not wearing that stress. Like you can see people that
Speaker 2: are just miserable for everyone in themselves. They're just like,
Speaker 2: you're gonna be that, but you all like you just
Speaker 2: have a glow about you. And i'd yeah, So I
Speaker 2: want to thank you.
Speaker 6: Brent calls it the carousel.
Speaker 7: When he when he gets ready to go to bed,
Speaker 7: and I he thinks of all the people on the carousel,
Speaker 7: that that that we all need to take care of.
Speaker 6: And it's important.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 6: I I love it. I love it. I love the music,
Speaker 6: I love my partner, I love you know. I just
Speaker 6: love it.
Speaker 2: Man.
Speaker 6: I jump out of bed in the morning. It's great.
Speaker 5: Bill.
Speaker 3: Where where can we uh send folks?
Speaker 2: Do you have anything to plug any website or anything
Speaker 2: coming up?
Speaker 6: Well, it's our website in the.
Speaker 5: Good, good entertaining, good entertainment.
Speaker 1: You know, everything's on social media, cash them TikTok to Instagram,
Speaker 1: to Facebook, the whole, the whole kit and kaboodle.
Speaker 5: You got a bunch of artists, great artist.
Speaker 7: I am at the best place of my life because
Speaker 7: I I love everybody I'm working with, and I know
Speaker 7: that sounds corny and bs, but it's a family.
Speaker 6: What a pleasure it's been sitting in.
Speaker 2: I really enjoyed having this conversation absolutely much.
Speaker 5: Thanks for the opportunity.
Speaker 6: Thank you man, Thank you.
Speaker 5: Yeah, seriously, I had a blast.
Speaker 3: Know, this is awesome.
Speaker 2: It's really cool media and you're too, like this has
Speaker 2: been great, this whole experience, but awesome.
Speaker 3: Yeah, so thank you so much.
Speaker 2: You know, this has been like taking as much time
Speaker 2: when you're as busy as your already have kids and ship, like, I.
Speaker 5: Really appreciate pleasure. Yeah, thank you.
Speaker 2: Yeah, all right, awesome interview. Thanks again, Uh, Brent Smith,
Speaker 2: Bill mccafey.
Speaker 3: It really was like a real.
Speaker 2: Raw and open discussion about depression and mental health and
Speaker 2: addiction and all these things and the cries for help,
Speaker 2: and yeah, it's just I commend people that are at
Speaker 2: that level, particularly you know, in that time period to
Speaker 2: talk about it that way. You know, it's pretty brave
Speaker 2: theme and he was very raw about it, and you know,
Speaker 2: they were trying to say, like, he's got to go
Speaker 2: to rehab right now, and the people that are closest
Speaker 2: to him, you know, and Bill were just saying it
Speaker 2: probably would have been the worst thing for him at
Speaker 2: that point, and for some people would be the best
Speaker 2: thing for them at that point, and for others it's
Speaker 2: just you got to meet people, and there's not this
Speaker 2: one size fits all approach. I mean, I know working
Speaker 2: in the criminal justice when I was an attorney and
Speaker 2: we had criminal defendants at our law firm, there was
Speaker 2: often times we would recommend do not take this rehab,
Speaker 2: do not take this probation. You should just do the
Speaker 2: time in jail and try to get outside help when
Speaker 2: you get out, right, because you are going to fail
Speaker 2: and then they're going to send you to prison for longer.
Speaker 3: That is not a system that's working when we're saying you.
Speaker 2: Need help and the best approach is for you to
Speaker 2: go to jail so we can figure it out on
Speaker 2: the back end. Happens every single day in this country
Speaker 2: in every single courthouse. I guarantee you ask any criminal
Speaker 2: defense attorney. So it's that sort of stuff where we
Speaker 2: don't have that, but we almost don't have that in society.
Speaker 3: It's already hard enough if like.
Speaker 2: People just want to push it, and I get it,
Speaker 2: and I think some I just wanted to touch on
Speaker 2: that kind of like made me think a little bit
Speaker 2: more and it's kind of question that, you know, because
Speaker 2: Brent's you know, completely clean now, and you know, we
Speaker 2: started talking about psilocybin and some of the medical benefits
Speaker 2: that can happen from PTSD mental health and actually treating
Speaker 2: you know, addiction for opiates and things like that, helping
Speaker 2: with withdrawals and and you know, kind of suppressing the
Speaker 2: need for it and craving, and it must be really difficult,
Speaker 2: and you could hear the skepticism and it's rightful from
Speaker 2: someone that you know, substances were the thing that we're
Speaker 2: getting them out, and you know, the pathway through was sobriety,
Speaker 2: and so to say like the solution is also something like,
Speaker 2: I get his skepticism, and so I had never thought
Speaker 2: about it that way. So that was it was good
Speaker 2: to hear that from a different perspective.
Speaker 4: And so yeah, yeah, it's probably hard to hear when
Speaker 4: you know you've gotten clean, like oh, why didn't you
Speaker 4: try drug? Yeah, why didn't you try more drug?
Speaker 2: You know, he's open to and I think that's what
Speaker 2: we all just need to say and see is just
Speaker 2: let's be open to this and just be you know,
Speaker 2: let's be honest. Let's just be honest about what we're
Speaker 2: talking about. So again, Yeah, Bill Brent, amazing.
Speaker 5: I'm Greg Lyve.
Speaker 3: This is the War on drugs.
Speaker 2: The War on Drugs is a production of Lava for
Speaker 2: Good and Stand Together Music and association with Signal Company
Speaker 2: Number one. Stand Together Music unites musicians and their teams
Speaker 2: with proven change makers to co create solutions to some
Speaker 2: of the most pressing.
Speaker 3: Issues in our country, including.
Speaker 2: Criminal justice, reform, addiction recovery, mental health, education, free speech,
Speaker 2: and ending the War on drugs. Learn more at Stand
Speaker 2: Together Music dot org.
Speaker 3: Be sure to follow Lava for.
Speaker 2: Good on Instagram, Facebook and threads at Law for Good.
Speaker 2: You can follow Clayton English on Instagram, n X at
Speaker 2: Clayton English, and you can follow Craig Laude on Instagram
Speaker 2: and on X at Greg Lott. Executive producers Jason Flamm,
Speaker 2: Jeff Kempler, Kevin Wardis, and Collette Wintraub. Senior producers Kelsey Stenecker,
Speaker 2: Zak Huffman and Nick Stump. Post production by ten ten,
Speaker 2: Audio talent booking by Dan Resnik. Rez Entertainment Head of
Speaker 2: Marketing and Operations, Jeff Cleiburn, Social Media Director, Ismadi Gudarama,
Speaker 2: social media Manager, Sarah Gibbons and art director Andrew Nelson.