WEBVTT - Jane Goodall 0:00:06.480 --> 0:00:09.840 Welcome to Creature future production of iHeartRadio. I'm your host 0:00:09.880 --> 0:00:14.320 of Many Parasites, Katie Golden. I studied psychology and evolutionary biology, 0:00:14.360 --> 0:00:17.320 and today on the show, we're gonna talk about Jane 0:00:17.360 --> 0:00:20.919 good Old Jane Goodall. As you've probably heard, she did 0:00:20.960 --> 0:00:22.599 pass away recently. 0:00:22.280 --> 0:00:25.400 While she was on a speaking tour. She's ninety one, 0:00:26.280 --> 0:00:28.000 still at it, still going. 0:00:27.760 --> 0:00:32.760 On speaking tours, which I mean, she really loved being 0:00:33.159 --> 0:00:36.440 with the Champanzees, so the like, it was kind of 0:00:36.440 --> 0:00:39.000 a sacrifice for her to go on these speaking tours 0:00:39.040 --> 0:00:43.400 because she would much prefer to be, you know, out 0:00:43.440 --> 0:00:47.120 there with the Champanzees, but she really wanted to educate 0:00:47.159 --> 0:00:54.040 the public. Wonderful, wonderful woman, one of the most influential primatologists, So. 0:00:54.520 --> 0:00:56.160 We're gonna talk about her. 0:00:56.360 --> 0:01:01.400 She obviously did a lot of amazing research, and she 0:01:01.480 --> 0:01:03.639 was just also really fun. 0:01:03.440 --> 0:01:04.240 And cool lady. 0:01:05.360 --> 0:01:08.399 Joining me today is comedian and musician host of the 0:01:08.440 --> 0:01:13.120 podcast Coldbrew Got Me Like and whose new record just 0:01:13.160 --> 0:01:13.560 came out. 0:01:13.680 --> 0:01:15.839 I'm your Man, Chris crafton. 0:01:15.720 --> 0:01:19.240 Welcome Chris, Hi, How are you nice to be here? Katie. 0:01:19.280 --> 0:01:20.119 It's been a little while. 0:01:20.280 --> 0:01:21.679 Yeah, it's good to have you back. 0:01:22.480 --> 0:01:23.280 It's always fun. 0:01:23.360 --> 0:01:26.080 Yeah, No, I'm I'm excited to talk about this. Of course, 0:01:26.600 --> 0:01:30.479 the news is sad, of course, like we we've lost 0:01:30.720 --> 0:01:36.160 We've lost Jane. But I I just she's so she's 0:01:36.240 --> 0:01:41.399 such a cool, positive person. And I mean, obviously her 0:01:41.560 --> 0:01:46.559 contributions to primatology were immense and amazing, So I really 0:01:46.959 --> 0:01:51.880 I just want to kind of celebrate like how fun 0:01:51.960 --> 0:01:55.560 she was. She had an actually really good sense of humor. 0:01:56.000 --> 0:01:59.400 She made some really incredible observations, and I'll give a 0:01:59.440 --> 0:02:03.200 little bit of back ground about her, but yeah, I mean, like, 0:02:04.040 --> 0:02:07.040 what what is your perception of Jane Goodall, Chris, Like, 0:02:07.080 --> 0:02:10.040 how have you? Because she's in I mean, she's so famous, 0:02:10.080 --> 0:02:11.840 she's in all sorts of bits of populace. 0:02:11.919 --> 0:02:15.320 Yeah. I would describe her as like the led Zeppelin 0:02:15.400 --> 0:02:16.760 of primatologists. 0:02:16.800 --> 0:02:21.200 That's like like sort of like you know, like you 0:02:21.280 --> 0:02:25.280 might not know anything about primatologists. 0:02:24.440 --> 0:02:26.799 But you know who Jane Goodall is. That's how much 0:02:26.880 --> 0:02:31.560 she how much she transcended science. And and I think 0:02:31.600 --> 0:02:34.760 a lot of times for people, science is like you know, 0:02:35.040 --> 0:02:38.400 scary or or you know, and so people who cut through, 0:02:38.440 --> 0:02:42.000 like Carl Sagan or these types of people who human, 0:02:42.160 --> 0:02:44.280 like put a human face on science. You know, it's 0:02:44.320 --> 0:02:48.160 such a it makes huge steps forward possible. And so 0:02:48.240 --> 0:02:51.359 I think of her as that like the sort of yeah, 0:02:51.520 --> 0:02:54.760 just like the the rock star of of of one 0:02:54.800 --> 0:02:55.959 of those rock stars. 0:02:55.680 --> 0:02:57.839 Of science kind of absolutely, And you know, I think 0:02:57.840 --> 0:03:02.960 that's a really good observation about how she made science 0:03:03.760 --> 0:03:06.840 very accessible to people, right, she put a human face 0:03:06.919 --> 0:03:10.280 to it. And her story is actually really interesting because 0:03:10.320 --> 0:03:13.440 she didn't. She had a very unusual career path. She 0:03:13.480 --> 0:03:17.239 did not start out as a scientist, like I mean, 0:03:17.280 --> 0:03:20.160 she was doing science at the beginning, but she actually 0:03:20.240 --> 0:03:25.040 had no formal scientific education. She had no bachelor's degree. 0:03:25.680 --> 0:03:29.360 She just loved animals so much that she kept putting 0:03:29.360 --> 0:03:31.600 her foot in the door where she since there was 0:03:31.639 --> 0:03:36.880 an opportunity to be around animals. So like, she had 0:03:37.080 --> 0:03:43.680 no no bachelor's degree, no formal education in primatology, evolutionary biology, nothing, 0:03:44.440 --> 0:03:47.120 but she managed to get herself to Kenya for a 0:03:47.240 --> 0:03:54.400 job as a secretary and she was on this farm 0:03:54.400 --> 0:03:56.640 where she got to be, you know, at least closer 0:03:56.680 --> 0:03:59.720 to these animals that she had grown up really really loving. 0:03:59.840 --> 0:04:04.760 And then she reached out to the Kenyan paleontologist uh 0:04:05.360 --> 0:04:10.560 Louis Leakly uh, and she wanted she was interested in 0:04:10.920 --> 0:04:14.320 working with animals. Leakally at the time was actually really 0:04:14.320 --> 0:04:19.240 interested in getting someone on board to study chimpanzees. 0:04:19.920 --> 0:04:20.880 But he didn't tell her this. 0:04:21.279 --> 0:04:23.720 Uh. He was kind of keeping it. He wasn't sure 0:04:23.920 --> 0:04:27.520 of the plan yet, so he hired her on as 0:04:27.760 --> 0:04:31.919 a secretary. And she just I think that she just 0:04:32.000 --> 0:04:36.320 kind of like, uh, inspired him about her personality about her. 0:04:36.440 --> 0:04:39.760 She had such the this U such an intense love 0:04:39.800 --> 0:04:42.680 for animals and such a great spirit about it. He's like, 0:04:42.680 --> 0:04:44.560 you know what, I actually think you could. You could 0:04:44.600 --> 0:04:48.960 do this despite her not having the the credentials right 0:04:49.000 --> 0:04:52.160 and also being a woman, which at the time was 0:04:52.400 --> 0:04:53.000 a barrier. 0:04:53.800 --> 0:04:56.720 Uh. He said, you know what, I would like you to. 0:04:58.240 --> 0:05:04.320 Make these observational studies champanzees. And she was absolutely, like 0:05:04.360 --> 0:05:05.559 one hundred percent on board. 0:05:05.600 --> 0:05:06.559 This was her dream. 0:05:06.640 --> 0:05:09.560 So she do you know how she got interested in 0:05:09.560 --> 0:05:11.279 in chimps or monkeys in general? 0:05:12.040 --> 0:05:14.120 Was this something she actually so like? 0:05:14.200 --> 0:05:17.279 She said that when she was a kid, she had 0:05:17.920 --> 0:05:20.720 a stuffed animal that her parents got. Instead of a 0:05:20.760 --> 0:05:25.279 teddy bear, they got her chimpanzee, and she just loved 0:05:25.279 --> 0:05:31.600 it and then started loving chimpanzees and animals. And I 0:05:31.640 --> 0:05:34.400 think it's it's I really relate to this, right because 0:05:34.440 --> 0:05:36.520 like when I was a kid, I was very much 0:05:36.560 --> 0:05:38.800 a stuffed animal girl. Like I didn't have a lot 0:05:38.839 --> 0:05:40.840 of dolls, didn't have a lot of barbies. 0:05:41.200 --> 0:05:42.760 I loved stuffed animals though. 0:05:42.760 --> 0:05:45.200 I was fascinated with them, and I would get a 0:05:45.240 --> 0:05:49.320 stuffed animal and I would want to learn more about it, right, 0:05:49.440 --> 0:05:51.240 Like of course, like when I was a kid, that 0:05:51.640 --> 0:05:55.520 we didn't quite have the Internet yet. It was starting, 0:05:55.600 --> 0:05:59.800 but it wasn't like easy to look up stuff online. 0:05:59.800 --> 0:06:02.800 But I would always like watch Animal Planets, so to 0:06:02.920 --> 0:06:07.880 have like my stuffed animals with me watching Animal Planet, and. 0:06:09.040 --> 0:06:10.080 So I really relate to that. 0:06:10.120 --> 0:06:13.000 I think I think she she had this since childhood, 0:06:13.040 --> 0:06:17.000 just a fascination with animals. Uh, you know, she may 0:06:17.040 --> 0:06:19.880 have become interested in chimpanzees regardless, but she didn get 0:06:19.920 --> 0:06:23.400 like a little stuffed chimpanzee that seemed to really capture 0:06:23.440 --> 0:06:23.840 her heart. 0:06:23.920 --> 0:06:25.920 So I wonder if it was curious George, I mean 0:06:25.920 --> 0:06:30.360 curious George probably did a lot, probably activated a lot 0:06:30.360 --> 0:06:34.000 of rhymatologists or something. Yeah, because I had stuffed animals too, 0:06:34.000 --> 0:06:36.000 and I was pretty like attached to them. But I 0:06:36.080 --> 0:06:38.960 never like, I just you know what I mean, Like 0:06:39.000 --> 0:06:42.200 I never well, I never went further with the biological 0:06:42.279 --> 0:06:44.279 Like I was just like, oh, I love my rabbit 0:06:44.320 --> 0:06:47.200 and I love my my bear. But I never like 0:06:47.279 --> 0:06:52.159 got interested in bears. Yeah, I just clung to them. Yeah, 0:06:52.200 --> 0:06:53.360 you know, because I was frightened. 0:06:53.480 --> 0:06:53.720 Yeah. 0:06:53.800 --> 0:06:56.920 No, I I think I got into it actually because 0:06:56.960 --> 0:07:01.400 of Beatrix Potter, because uh, I had I had all 0:07:01.400 --> 0:07:05.480 those books. Uh And actually my my nursery was apparently 0:07:05.520 --> 0:07:09.080 decorated with a bunch of Beatrix Potter animals. And Beatrix 0:07:09.120 --> 0:07:12.880 Potter is interesting because she makes these very anthropomorphic animals 0:07:12.960 --> 0:07:17.200 right there wearing clothes. I know that was I would say, 0:07:17.520 --> 0:07:21.200 Eel White. Maybe, I'm not sure she did yet. No, 0:07:21.320 --> 0:07:25.000 she did Peter Rabbit and all those other stories. But 0:07:25.480 --> 0:07:29.040 she was actually a really good naturalist illustrator, and so 0:07:29.080 --> 0:07:31.400 she even though the animals would be wearing little like 0:07:31.480 --> 0:07:34.880 waistcoats and dresses and stuff, they were very realistic looking, 0:07:35.240 --> 0:07:38.440 like she didn't make them cartoony, which was I think 0:07:38.520 --> 0:07:41.200 really interesting because for me, that was that made really 0:07:41.240 --> 0:07:44.240 fascinated in them, because like they were these little animals 0:07:44.360 --> 0:07:47.040 wearing clothes, but they were also very realistically portrayed. 0:07:47.880 --> 0:07:48.200 Sure, So. 0:07:49.920 --> 0:07:51.720 For Jane, I think it was just something that she 0:07:51.840 --> 0:07:57.520 had grown up love absolutely loving animals, uh, and it 0:07:57.680 --> 0:08:00.880 just felt, you know, feels like they're some people who 0:08:01.040 --> 0:08:03.720 just kind of like for her, it was like she 0:08:04.040 --> 0:08:06.840 kept putting herself in the position to get closer and 0:08:06.880 --> 0:08:09.760 closer and closer to the animals that she loved, and 0:08:09.840 --> 0:08:12.440 she got there, and she that kind of like patience 0:08:12.520 --> 0:08:14.600 right where like I have this goal and I'm gonna 0:08:14.640 --> 0:08:20.560 like get there. She was really really patient when she 0:08:20.640 --> 0:08:26.400 started to study chimpanzees. So in nineteen sixty she went 0:08:26.600 --> 0:08:30.440 to the old Duvai Gorge in what is now Tanzania 0:08:30.600 --> 0:08:35.920 and started to observe champanzees, which was not easy because 0:08:36.000 --> 0:08:38.520 at first the champanzees are like, who is this lady 0:08:39.720 --> 0:08:43.080 and they would be either really avoidant of her or 0:08:43.160 --> 0:08:47.080 even aggressive, and she had to spend a bunch of 0:08:47.120 --> 0:08:51.000 time just acclimating them to her presence by just sitting 0:08:51.000 --> 0:08:56.439 there and being quiet, which you know, is like that 0:08:56.640 --> 0:09:00.080 is one of the most like she was obviously really 0:09:00.120 --> 0:09:02.920 really smart, but one of the most impressive things about 0:09:02.960 --> 0:09:05.960 her is her monk like patience where she could just 0:09:06.040 --> 0:09:09.600 do that and also endure the threat of these chimpanzees. 0:09:09.640 --> 0:09:13.160 Who a chimpanzee can mess you up, like it's not 0:09:13.480 --> 0:09:16.679 it's not a shy woodland creature like it can. 0:09:17.080 --> 0:09:20.319 No I know about Yeah, we all know about chimpanzees 0:09:20.360 --> 0:09:24.280 from various documentaries that have come out. But I, uh, 0:09:25.480 --> 0:09:28.720 it's funny because I was just overfeeding my sister's cats 0:09:29.280 --> 0:09:32.160 and I have to do a sort of similar thing. 0:09:32.520 --> 0:09:35.719 Oh yeah, Like cats are very mad at me for 0:09:35.760 --> 0:09:39.120 no reason, and and I have to sit there quietly 0:09:39.280 --> 0:09:41.280 and let them hiss at me and stuff until they 0:09:41.360 --> 0:09:43.120 finally get it out of their system and then they 0:09:43.240 --> 0:09:44.000 let me give them food. 0:09:44.120 --> 0:09:46.560 That's kind of exactly what she had to. 0:09:46.480 --> 0:09:50.559 Do, and that irritates me. And it takes like eight minutes. 0:09:50.720 --> 0:09:52.240 Yeah, this took a lot longer. 0:09:53.040 --> 0:09:55.760 Yeah, I can imagine. No, I would I get it though. 0:09:56.000 --> 0:09:58.120 I would not have the patience. Honestly, I would also 0:09:58.200 --> 0:10:00.960 not have the nerve the first time I trimpancy would 0:10:01.000 --> 0:10:02.400 like run at me, I'd be like, you know what, 0:10:03.120 --> 0:10:07.160 you're right, this is your area. I'll leave goodbye. But no, 0:10:07.280 --> 0:10:09.440 she was she was with She was like patient, She 0:10:09.480 --> 0:10:14.400 had nerves of steel, and she was highly. 0:10:13.480 --> 0:10:19.199 Observant, so she no internet either, no internet, just writing. 0:10:19.280 --> 0:10:23.440 Seeing there, writing down a huge amount of observations. 0:10:23.760 --> 0:10:25.040 So she she. 0:10:25.559 --> 0:10:29.120 Was impressive enough that she was actually able to uh 0:10:29.880 --> 0:10:35.520 uh get her pH d in ethology without having obtained 0:10:35.520 --> 0:10:39.480 her bachelor's degree first. She later got an honorary bachelor's degree, 0:10:39.480 --> 0:10:42.160 but she kind of like just she started out being like, 0:10:42.240 --> 0:10:45.600 I'm gonna just make these observations, and she was so 0:10:45.760 --> 0:10:46.400 good at it. 0:10:47.000 --> 0:10:48.920 Uh, it was like, actually, yeah. 0:10:48.720 --> 0:10:51.839 You you should get a PhD like the your you're 0:10:52.160 --> 0:10:58.480 you know, even though she received no, no, no, she 0:10:58.520 --> 0:11:00.720 worked for the the for the peace, she had to 0:11:00.760 --> 0:11:02.319 work for it. So she did a lot of work 0:11:02.360 --> 0:11:05.400 for the PhD. The bachelor's degree she got as like 0:11:05.400 --> 0:11:07.880 an honorary degree, but honestly, at that point she had 0:11:07.880 --> 0:11:12.600 already done enough work to have gotten several bachelor's degrees, 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:13.640 so like, you know. 0:11:14.200 --> 0:11:16.680 She was not she did it was not like the easy, 0:11:16.960 --> 0:11:17.880 the easy way. 0:11:17.800 --> 0:11:22.080 But I'm gonna I'm going for my honorary doctorate in 0:11:22.240 --> 0:11:23.840 most broke musician. 0:11:24.440 --> 0:11:28.400 I think that's you know, I I I think that's 0:11:28.440 --> 0:11:33.760 a very competitive feel, Chris, I think, but yeah, so 0:11:33.800 --> 0:11:36.720 she but she did receive a lot of pushback. I 0:11:36.720 --> 0:11:39.080 mean a lot of it was sexism, but also a 0:11:39.080 --> 0:11:42.479 lot of it was from her perspective, based on her perspective, 0:11:42.480 --> 0:11:47.640 where she sort of she humanized the chimpanzees while also 0:11:47.800 --> 0:11:53.120 making very accurate observations. So what I mean by that 0:11:53.200 --> 0:11:57.480 is that she'd give them all names. She would kind 0:11:57.520 --> 0:12:00.600 of talk about their individual personalities, which the idea that 0:12:00.679 --> 0:12:05.600 animals would have individual personalities was not like a super 0:12:05.600 --> 0:12:10.280 commonly accepted idea in evolutionary biology or primatology, right. 0:12:10.200 --> 0:12:12.839 That, I sure, like I read about that. Yeah, so 0:12:13.080 --> 0:12:14.080 I read that she gave them. 0:12:14.000 --> 0:12:19.760 Names based on their personalities or or like, and she 0:12:19.840 --> 0:12:22.959 would describe them as being different individuals, right, Like some 0:12:23.000 --> 0:12:25.200 of them are really sweet and good natured, some of 0:12:25.200 --> 0:12:26.000 them were bullies. 0:12:26.760 --> 0:12:27.840 And so she was. 0:12:27.840 --> 0:12:31.320 Kind of conducting herself a little bit like an anthropologist. 0:12:31.679 --> 0:12:34.360 And so there was a lot of pushback at the 0:12:34.400 --> 0:12:37.199 time saying, well, this isn't scientific, this is an objective 0:12:37.640 --> 0:12:41.080 But honestly, I think that what was interesting was that 0:12:41.160 --> 0:12:45.839 she wasn't really pretending to be completely impartial and objective, right, 0:12:46.280 --> 0:12:51.440 she was noting her opinions and writing stuff like writing 0:12:51.480 --> 0:12:54.400 down all these observations, which I think, like, there it 0:12:54.480 --> 0:12:57.000 is a bit of a myth that any kind of 0:12:57.040 --> 0:13:00.760 observational science is going to be completely without bias. So 0:13:01.240 --> 0:13:04.560 she kind of like leaned into that, where it's like, yes, 0:13:05.520 --> 0:13:12.200 I'm going to I'm going to make sure that I 0:13:12.280 --> 0:13:16.640 am recording reality, but it's obviously through my own eyes 0:13:16.800 --> 0:13:18.920 and through my own understanding of what's going on. So 0:13:19.160 --> 0:13:21.400 I think that it was a really interesting kind of 0:13:21.440 --> 0:13:25.520 like in a way more honest approach to observational studies, 0:13:25.520 --> 0:13:30.120 where it's like, yeah, like these are I'm certainly like I'm. 0:13:29.960 --> 0:13:33.559 Part of the equation, right, which is a difficult. 0:13:33.160 --> 0:13:36.880 Thing to admit when you're like doing doing science right, 0:13:36.960 --> 0:13:40.040 because it's like, well, we need objectivity. We can't be 0:13:40.240 --> 0:13:44.800 coloring the results, which is a valuable is definitely a 0:13:44.880 --> 0:13:50.079 valuable principle, especially if you're doing like laboratory studies, right, 0:13:50.480 --> 0:13:53.080 But for observational studies, I mean, it's kind of hard 0:13:53.120 --> 0:13:57.560 to avoid. We're human beings, we have our own perspectives, 0:13:57.840 --> 0:14:00.520 and so she kind of, you know, she she leaned 0:14:00.559 --> 0:14:03.560 into it, like, yeah, I named these chimpanzees. I feel 0:14:03.600 --> 0:14:07.520 like I'm friends with them, right, Like she she didn't 0:14:07.559 --> 0:14:11.959 pretend that she wasn't involved, which I think kind of 0:14:12.920 --> 0:14:19.280 helped change people's perception of what, uh what primatology could be, 0:14:19.800 --> 0:14:22.040 what like and in general, what science could be that 0:14:22.120 --> 0:14:26.800 you didn't You couldn't always be like just have you know, 0:14:26.840 --> 0:14:29.120 being a white lab coat have a thing and be 0:14:29.200 --> 0:14:30.640 completely impersonal about it. 0:14:31.000 --> 0:14:35.400 Well, especially with chimpanzees like or primates, because primates are 0:14:36.320 --> 0:14:38.600 it's not like a fish. Like. You know, you could 0:14:38.640 --> 0:14:41.040 sit around in a lab coat around some fish all 0:14:41.120 --> 0:14:43.920 day long and uh, it wouldn't make one. You could 0:14:43.960 --> 0:14:45.720 wear a tuxedo or a lab coat and the fish 0:14:45.720 --> 0:14:48.520 wouldn't mind. Right, But if you wear a tuxedo around 0:14:48.520 --> 0:14:50.120 a chimp, next thing, you know, you're at a dinner park, 0:14:50.240 --> 0:14:56.360 right So you yeah, yeah, you're damn right. I guess 0:14:56.440 --> 0:14:58.480 you know that better than me. But I'm sure, yeah 0:14:58.520 --> 0:15:02.040 it's no good. But uh, I don't know what they eat? 0:15:02.040 --> 0:15:02.760 What do they bark? 0:15:03.080 --> 0:15:07.520 They eat their omnivores. This is great because actually this. 0:15:07.640 --> 0:15:10.760 Was one of Jane's one of her discoveries, which was 0:15:10.840 --> 0:15:12.760 that they're not vegetarians. 0:15:12.840 --> 0:15:14.560 They're omnivores like we are. 0:15:14.520 --> 0:15:18.200 So they do eat vegetation, but they also eat meat 0:15:18.240 --> 0:15:23.480 and insects and basically anything they can find, nuts, fruits. 0:15:23.680 --> 0:15:25.720 Uh So they like us. 0:15:25.640 --> 0:15:30.240 Are omnivores, will actively hunt for meat, and we'll also 0:15:30.280 --> 0:15:32.160 eat insects like termites. 0:15:32.200 --> 0:15:34.520 So yeah, they're they they. 0:15:34.400 --> 0:15:39.080 Have similar palettes to us, except that maybe the specific 0:15:39.120 --> 0:15:40.760 menu is a bit different. 0:15:41.360 --> 0:15:44.200 Right, kind of like macabre trail mix. 0:15:44.320 --> 0:15:49.080 Yes, yeah, yeah, the trail mix would be it would 0:15:49.120 --> 0:15:52.320 be uh yeah, termites, little bits of yeah, a little 0:15:52.320 --> 0:15:55.080 bits of veget Yeah. Yeah, if they can get their 0:15:55.080 --> 0:15:57.760 hands on absolutely, they would show down on that. 0:15:59.280 --> 0:15:59.520 Yeah. 0:15:59.640 --> 0:16:01.920 Yeah, So yeah, I would think there's a social component 0:16:02.000 --> 0:16:06.760 to automatically with dealing with primates that if you tried 0:16:06.800 --> 0:16:10.360 to well, who knows, I don't really, but anyway, there's 0:16:10.440 --> 0:16:13.000 I would imagine it's sort of unique that that you 0:16:13.040 --> 0:16:16.440 know that they're so smart and and that you would 0:16:16.480 --> 0:16:20.160 have to be hard to hide your presence. Yeah, completely, Yeah, 0:16:20.160 --> 0:16:20.600 for sure. 0:16:20.600 --> 0:16:22.800 And I mean it's like, yes, you do become part 0:16:22.840 --> 0:16:25.240 of the equation, but that does allow you to see 0:16:25.240 --> 0:16:30.160 their behaviors with some with someone present, right, So as 0:16:30.240 --> 0:16:32.600 long as you're, in my opinion, as long as you're 0:16:32.680 --> 0:16:36.760 kind of showing your hand in terms of like yes, 0:16:36.920 --> 0:16:40.160 I am here, and yes, my presence influences their behavior. 0:16:41.200 --> 0:16:43.880 You're still learning things about them, right, because you're still 0:16:43.960 --> 0:16:47.160 learning about like how they act, how they act around 0:16:48.200 --> 0:16:52.880 an observer. But because she became so such a common 0:16:52.960 --> 0:16:56.000 sight for them, they did begin to exhibit behaviors where 0:16:56.000 --> 0:16:57.840 they are just like interacting with each other and kind 0:16:57.840 --> 0:17:02.480 of ignoring her. Where she could see their their interactions 0:17:02.480 --> 0:17:05.840 among themselves. And she even though she loved them, uh 0:17:06.320 --> 0:17:11.400 and she empathized with them, she had a pretty unflinching 0:17:11.640 --> 0:17:14.280 look at them, like she didn't shy away from the 0:17:14.320 --> 0:17:18.520 fact that they can be real jerks, like chimpanzees can 0:17:19.040 --> 0:17:23.240 be terribly unpleasant. They can be they can fight each 0:17:23.240 --> 0:17:25.560 other and kill each other. And she would she would 0:17:25.600 --> 0:17:28.399 make these observations, and she wouldn't try to, like, you know, 0:17:29.640 --> 0:17:33.760 make it seem all sunshine and rainbows, right Like it's like, yeah, 0:17:33.960 --> 0:17:37.240 there's a lot of a lot of grim reality to 0:17:37.760 --> 0:17:44.480 the chimpanzee life, but she she documented it all. She 0:17:44.680 --> 0:17:47.480 also had, like I said earlier, she had a great 0:17:47.480 --> 0:17:51.200 sense of humor. There's this story that I love because 0:17:51.240 --> 0:17:53.720 I I love Have you do you read, uh, have 0:17:53.840 --> 0:17:57.440 you read a Gary Larson's cartoons? 0:17:57.720 --> 0:17:58.920 Yeah? Far Side exactly. 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:02.520 Of course. Yeah, I'm like I'm fifty six, so like yeah, 0:18:02.520 --> 0:18:04.560 like like in college and stuff that was like a 0:18:04.560 --> 0:18:07.600 big deal also pre internet, so like yeah, like those 0:18:08.400 --> 0:18:10.480 everybody loved Farside. Farside's so funny. 0:18:10.640 --> 0:18:13.359 I love Farside when I was a kid. I like 0:18:13.520 --> 0:18:16.919 also because he had so many cartoons about animals, right, 0:18:16.960 --> 0:18:17.480 like a lot. 0:18:17.320 --> 0:18:17.800 Of the humans. 0:18:17.800 --> 0:18:21.680 Oh yeah, genius, Yes for me as a kid, I 0:18:22.119 --> 0:18:25.760 loved it. I bought a bunch of his, like galleries, right, 0:18:25.760 --> 0:18:26.720 his collections. 0:18:26.840 --> 0:18:28.960 It holds up its insants, it's so good. 0:18:29.040 --> 0:18:29.320 Yeah. 0:18:29.359 --> 0:18:34.840 And so there's this really funny story of between Jane 0:18:34.840 --> 0:18:37.960 Goodall and Gary Larson, so like oh wow, yeah, so 0:18:38.119 --> 0:18:41.480 he uh did a did a comic strip where it's 0:18:41.520 --> 0:18:43.280 like it was one of his one panels, right, he 0:18:43.320 --> 0:18:46.000 loved doing those, just like one panel, the art and 0:18:46.080 --> 0:18:50.560 the text under it, and it's these two chimpanzees female 0:18:50.600 --> 0:18:53.320 grooming a male, and she's got the like she's got 0:18:53.320 --> 0:18:55.840 like the horn rim glasses, you know, like he he 0:18:56.000 --> 0:18:59.840 liked most of the female characters, I know exactly. The 0:19:00.960 --> 0:19:04.960 yeah those granny cat eye glasses. That's the only clothes she's. 0:19:04.800 --> 0:19:06.760 Wearing, right, But she's got those, so you know that. 0:19:07.520 --> 0:19:14.719 Uh and she uh she The caption of the comic 0:19:14.960 --> 0:19:18.400 was the female chimp saying to the male chimp, as 0:19:18.400 --> 0:19:21.960 she's grooming him. Well, well, another blonde hair conducting a 0:19:21.960 --> 0:19:25.159 little more quote research with that. Jane Goodall tramp. 0:19:25.960 --> 0:19:29.840 Uh. Yeah, fantastic funny. 0:19:30.760 --> 0:19:37.119 And then what happened is the Jane Goodall Institute wrote 0:19:37.119 --> 0:19:41.359 into the newspaper and the Jane Goodall Institute called the 0:19:41.400 --> 0:19:44.560 cartoon an atrocity. There was this fear that they were 0:19:44.600 --> 0:19:50.080 gonna sue Gary Larson. Jane Goodall had no idea this 0:19:50.200 --> 0:19:53.480 was happening. When she found out, like someone finally like 0:19:53.560 --> 0:19:59.000 she's got sent this, uh the cartoon, she said, wow, fantastic, 0:19:59.119 --> 0:20:02.440 real famoute last fancy being in a Gary Larson cartoon. 0:20:02.960 --> 0:20:04.160 And it was her favorite thing. 0:20:04.400 --> 0:20:05.280 Like she loved it. 0:20:05.760 --> 0:20:08.520 She was like, oh, maybe I should write to Gary 0:20:08.560 --> 0:20:10.480 Larson and let him know I loved it. But she 0:20:10.520 --> 0:20:14.760 got distracted because chimpanzees and so like. She had no 0:20:14.800 --> 0:20:17.120 idea that this like beef was going on where people 0:20:17.160 --> 0:20:20.000 were like, oh, Jane Goodall hated this cartoon, and when 0:20:20.040 --> 0:20:22.840 she found out, she's like, no, I loved it. It's amazing. 0:20:22.880 --> 0:20:25.160 Of course I don't want to see Gary Larson. And 0:20:25.240 --> 0:20:29.560 so she invited him to her research institute at the 0:20:29.600 --> 0:20:32.960 Gombe National Park, and so he came as a guest, 0:20:33.119 --> 0:20:36.359 and he was really apparently really nervous because he's like, like, 0:20:36.760 --> 0:20:40.080 I was worried that I had maybe offended her, and 0:20:40.160 --> 0:20:42.359 she's like, no, no, of course not. She she loved 0:20:42.400 --> 0:20:46.760 the cartoon. She actually received a bunch of copies of 0:20:46.840 --> 0:20:49.679 it and she couldn't throw any of them out, so, 0:20:49.800 --> 0:20:52.359 like she just had a massive collection of the same 0:20:52.440 --> 0:20:57.520 Gary Larson cartoon and so yeah, she ended up writing 0:20:57.600 --> 0:21:03.720 the forward to one of his collections of cartoons, the 0:21:03.840 --> 0:21:11.359 I think the Far Side Gallery five. Yeah, and so 0:21:12.680 --> 0:21:18.200 she like told she like told these stories about Gary 0:21:18.280 --> 0:21:22.119 Larson coming to visit her at the Gombe National Park 0:21:22.400 --> 0:21:25.080 and she introduced him to like she brought him with 0:21:25.359 --> 0:21:28.720 her to go see the chimpanzees. But like it went 0:21:28.760 --> 0:21:32.440 a little awry because there was a this mail chimp 0:21:32.520 --> 0:21:36.840 that she called Frodo, who was actually kind of an asshole, 0:21:37.960 --> 0:21:42.480 a real jerk and a bully, and Frodo saw Gary 0:21:42.560 --> 0:21:46.040 Larson and it was like nerd alert and went over 0:21:46.119 --> 0:21:49.760 and started bullying Gary Larson like pushing him around, kind 0:21:49.760 --> 0:21:54.600 of hitting him. And Jane was really like she was 0:21:54.640 --> 0:21:58.000 projecting calm, right, like trying to remain very calm, trying 0:21:58.040 --> 0:22:01.679 to redirect Frodo's attention from Gary Larson to herself. But 0:22:01.800 --> 0:22:04.600 she was like, I was panicking internally because like what if, 0:22:04.680 --> 0:22:09.760 like I get the world's best cartoonist killed by this chimpanze. Yeah, 0:22:10.440 --> 0:22:13.080 but the chimpane Frodo gave up after a while. He 0:22:13.160 --> 0:22:15.080 was just like just like kind of like all right, 0:22:15.280 --> 0:22:17.000 gave you a wedge, he slapped around a little bit. 0:22:17.000 --> 0:22:21.000 All Right, I'm fine, I'm done. Uh so Gary Larson survived. 0:22:21.200 --> 0:22:23.760 And uh yeah, so it's I think it's just one 0:22:23.800 --> 0:22:28.439 of these humanizing moments, right. She's like she's a she 0:22:28.600 --> 0:22:30.600 was a person who had a great sense of humor 0:22:31.640 --> 0:22:35.159 about herself and about her work, and uh yeah, I 0:22:35.200 --> 0:22:40.080 mean like it's the it's very it's also like, uh 0:22:40.480 --> 0:22:44.119 you know, it's a it's so funny to me that 0:22:44.240 --> 0:22:48.720 she's like because she just seems so serene right, like 0:22:48.720 --> 0:22:51.639 like almost like just like like monk like right, but 0:22:51.680 --> 0:22:56.720 then she's like apparently like uh you know, internally panicking 0:22:56.760 --> 0:22:59.920 because she thinks she's gonna get Gary Larson killed by this. 0:23:00.600 --> 0:23:06.800 Yeah, I think people, I mean, yeah, they people like 0:23:06.840 --> 0:23:08.760