Speaker 1: How many things are different since we met, since before
Speaker 1: the pandemic, how my life has changed, and how a
Speaker 1: lot of people's life, and how things that you didn't
Speaker 1: realize were so important really the important things, right. It's
Speaker 1: not just your career, and it's not just you know,
Speaker 1: how you show up at work. It's just it's really
Speaker 1: the words that come out of your mouth and how
Speaker 1: you live your life. Guys are nervous. There's nothing to
Speaker 1: be nervous about. You might be nervous. I have no
Speaker 1: idea what and how this is gonna work, but that's
Speaker 1: how I do things. I know. That's what I love
Speaker 1: about you. It's gonna be awesome. It will be awesome.
Speaker 1: And let's just remember why we are doing this together,
Speaker 1: because I asked you to. I'm psyched that you're going
Speaker 1: to be doing this with me. I have no idea how.
Speaker 1: I know you're someone that likes to know exactly how, when, where,
Speaker 1: and why. So I think we'll be a good will
Speaker 1: be a good balance to each other. I think you're
Speaker 1: exactly right. I think there's a part of me that
Speaker 1: loves the idea of winging it, and then there's a
Speaker 1: part of me that's like I need to research and
Speaker 1: know the formula and know exactly what questions I need
Speaker 1: to ask. So it's really a great exercise for me. Also,
Speaker 1: just like jumping off without a parachute and saying, you
Speaker 1: know what, it's gonna be great no matter what. Honestly,
Speaker 1: I'm even embarrassed to say this. We've been friends for
Speaker 1: how many years? I think eight? Wow? I know I
Speaker 1: time it based on Zia, how old she is. Everything
Speaker 1: in my life is now clock to how old my
Speaker 1: child is. So I think we have known each other
Speaker 1: since before I left Google. We met each other when
Speaker 1: I was asked to come in and speak to the
Speaker 1: team at Google about entrepreneurship or whatever. It was women's
Speaker 1: empowerment and you were the head of legal. I always
Speaker 1: say that, but I know there was an official title.
Speaker 1: I appreciate the promotion you give me every time we talk,
Speaker 1: so I I feel I feel loath to correct you,
Speaker 1: but I was. Yeah, I was a senior attorney at
Speaker 1: Google at the time when we met, and I came
Speaker 1: in because lunch, I mean, you know, lunch at Google
Speaker 1: is like nothing else, just you know, it was so
Speaker 1: cool and I was coming from you know, this corporate
Speaker 1: ish office and I just thought it was so cool.
Speaker 1: And and after the talk, you came up to me
Speaker 1: and you said, will you be my mentor? And I
Speaker 1: looked at you, like really, and I said, okay, but
Speaker 1: everyone listening, don't ever ask me again because I had
Speaker 1: done it the second left in my dance card. But
Speaker 1: and that's how we became friends. And then we probably
Speaker 1: met for breakfast for lunch. And then when my son
Speaker 1: graduated Stanford and was looking for work, I said, go
Speaker 1: meet my friend, just talk. And you know, your kids
Speaker 1: are always reluctant to take your advice, and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: and you guys hit it off and you helped him
Speaker 1: land his first job. What a great kid. And I
Speaker 1: just got marry and he just got married. It's like,
Speaker 1: you know, things just go so fast, which takes me
Speaker 1: back to why I wanted to do this podcast. How
Speaker 1: many things are different since we met, since before the pandemic,
Speaker 1: how my life has changed, and how a lot of
Speaker 1: people's lives and and how things that you didn't realize
Speaker 1: were so important are really the important things. It's not
Speaker 1: just your career, and it's not just you know, how
Speaker 1: you show up at work. It's just it's really the
Speaker 1: words that come out of your mouth and how you
Speaker 1: live your life A hundred percent agree. I think when
Speaker 1: we first talked about what this might look like and
Speaker 1: what we want to talk about, what would we both
Speaker 1: be interested in, These are the things that kept coming up.
Speaker 1: And it really it kind of dubtails back to my
Speaker 1: book and the conclusion that my Ted talk, which is
Speaker 1: that at the end of the day, what people really
Speaker 1: were focused on, their deepest desires were for three simple things,
Speaker 1: which was health, happiness, and love, and that was it.
Speaker 1: And so it just that those themes sort of proved
Speaker 1: true again and again and over the course of the
Speaker 1: pandemic and on the other well when on the other side,
Speaker 1: but sort of in the thick of this pandemic um
Speaker 1: it feels like we just know that that's so true.
Speaker 1: And anybody who had a doubt that those were the
Speaker 1: things that really matter, they don't have those doubts anymore.
Speaker 1: So it's going to be really interesting, I think, to
Speaker 1: talk to some of these incredible people that we both
Speaker 1: have a pleasure the honor of knowing, and to talk
Speaker 1: about the important stuff. So I guess it's time to
Speaker 1: get started with our very first guest on the important
Speaker 1: things we're talking to the one and only Glorious Dinham.
Speaker 1: That's right. I was thinking about how cool it is
Speaker 1: it I actually know Glorious Dinham and I was able
Speaker 1: to ask her to be on the podcast and she
Speaker 1: actually said yes. I mean, how did you meet her?
Speaker 1: So my brief history with her. I actually first time
Speaker 1: I met her was at the White House. I was
Speaker 1: invited by Michelle Obama for wait, I'm sorry, yeah, let's
Speaker 1: just just pause here, like casually better the White House.
Speaker 1: Invited by Michelle Obama. I met her at the White House.
Speaker 1: Our lives are very different. Um No, it was an
Speaker 1: amazing time in my life. I got invited to the
Speaker 1: White House a lot for a lot of women's empowerment
Speaker 1: and all these different things, but this particular time it
Speaker 1: was quite something. There was a luncheon and they were like,
Speaker 1: I can't even tell you how many amazing, powerful, cool
Speaker 1: women from from acting to just everything, you know, I mean,
Speaker 1: and Richard's daughter was there, Cecil like all these cool people,
Speaker 1: and Glorious Steinham was there and I went over and
Speaker 1: you know, Rheese Witherspoon was there. People were just taking
Speaker 1: pictures with each other, fan girling each other and so
Speaker 1: it was okay. So I went up introduced myself to
Speaker 1: Gloria and she couldn't have been nicer. We took pictures
Speaker 1: and it was really cool. So, you know, I had
Speaker 1: those pictures and every year during Women's Empowerment Month, I
Speaker 1: could put up the picture and be like, yeah, thanks Gloria.
Speaker 1: And for some reason, out of the blue, I get
Speaker 1: a call one day from Jerry Leborne and asked if
Speaker 1: I would introduce Glorious Steinham at Rutgers. They were making
Speaker 1: her the Glorious Dynham chair of this department, and I
Speaker 1: was like, are you kidding me? I'm going to introduce now.
Speaker 1: I was a wreck. So I did. I introduced her.
Speaker 1: She got up afterwards and said some of the nicest,
Speaker 1: kindest things about me, not to me, and so that
Speaker 1: started as a mini I won't say friendship, because you know,
Speaker 1: I don't just call her and say how's your day,
Speaker 1: but it started, you know, the first of a few
Speaker 1: other things. Well, I'm really excited about this conversation. I
Speaker 1: have had the pleasure of meeting her twice, but more
Speaker 1: like me being one of the young women who ran
Speaker 1: up to her and just told her how much she
Speaker 1: meant to me and all her writing and just how
Speaker 1: inspiring she was to me and to my child. I
Speaker 1: had to tell you my daughter, Zio, you know, who's
Speaker 1: only eleven. Now, she's really unimpressed. She's like very at
Speaker 1: that phase where she's unimpressed with everything I do, Like
Speaker 1: everything annoys her, everything's an eye roll. And when I
Speaker 1: told her that we were talking to Glorious Dinham, she
Speaker 1: stopped in her tracks and she looked, I mean, WHOA.
Speaker 1: And I was like, okay, I did all right. At
Speaker 1: least she knows Gloria Steinubz. I think she was actually
Speaker 1: impressed with her mother for a very short moment. So
Speaker 1: I will take those wins where I can get them. Well,
Speaker 1: let's I'm ready to I'm ready to talk to her.
Speaker 1: Let's see what happens. Let's do it. I think of
Speaker 1: you as I do of Yogi Berra. Yogi was a
Speaker 1: dear friend of Nobody's ever said that to me, but
Speaker 1: it doesn't make any sense, but because he was like
Speaker 1: the top of this hero guy, and honestly he was
Speaker 1: a role model for me. I used to watch him
Speaker 1: deal with the people that went up to him and
Speaker 1: say hello and tell their stories, and he was so
Speaker 1: kind and nice but kept walking by the way, and
Speaker 1: I just I learned a lot. And you are the
Speaker 1: top of the heap, Gloria on every you, Yeah, name
Speaker 1: one person on top of your heap. Well, first of all,
Speaker 1: we don't have a pyramid. We have an army. Uh huh,
Speaker 1: that's why you're you, and I mean, okay, right, it's
Speaker 1: not about a hierarchy. Look at all the things you've
Speaker 1: done that I could not possibly do. I mean, like eyeliner,
Speaker 1: I've never even had a job unless created a company. Ah. Well,
Speaker 1: I should also introduce you to my co host and Julie,
Speaker 1: who is my co host on this podcast, and it's
Speaker 1: called The Important Things because honestly, things that used to
Speaker 1: matter don't matter as much, partly because I'm getting older
Speaker 1: and more comfortable and confident, and also because of the pandemic.
Speaker 1: It just kind of gave us a new way. So
Speaker 1: that is the podcast. Laura. It's such an honor to
Speaker 1: meet you again. I have met you once because I
Speaker 1: was one of those women who came running up to
Speaker 1: you after seeing you speak. I've actually done this to
Speaker 1: you twice, so apologies for both times. But you were
Speaker 1: the most gracious, incredible person and so it's truly I'm
Speaker 1: trying really hard not to found girl and geek out
Speaker 1: right now, but it's really really humbling to be here
Speaker 1: in your company. No no, no fend girls allowed. But
Speaker 1: where where were we? Do you remember? It was two
Speaker 1: different things. One was right after the sixteen UM election
Speaker 1: and you spoke. You and Annie Leeviowitz did an event
Speaker 1: at the Babil Correctional Center for my daughter's school. Oh yes, yeah,
Speaker 1: the photography And it was incredible. It was her photography exhibit,
Speaker 1: yes exactly, and you were with her and we were
Speaker 1: in the circle and everybody gathered first and I sat
Speaker 1: down in a random chair and the two of you
Speaker 1: ended up sitting right next to me, and I was
Speaker 1: really losing it. I was really trying to be like, hey, Annie,
Speaker 1: it's cool whatever, but I did not feel cool inside UM.
Speaker 1: And then the second time was actually at the play,
Speaker 1: at your play. It was a random like Tuesday, and
Speaker 1: you happened to be there the same night. I was
Speaker 1: sitting next to Dan when Furstenburg, and across from us
Speaker 1: was you and Hillary Clinton, and that was it was
Speaker 1: like what is happening? Like all three UM icons of
Speaker 1: New York. Well know you you met you picked an
Speaker 1: extraordinary night. It was incredible, right, yeah, And it was
Speaker 1: like really just aroundom. I think it was like a Tuesday,
Speaker 1: like a snowy Tuesday. I don't even know what happened,
Speaker 1: but it was. It was incredible. And so Diane brought
Speaker 1: me over to meet you and Hillary and that was
Speaker 1: another Yeah. So I've had these two wonderful brushes with you,
Speaker 1: and so it's an honor to be here with you.
Speaker 1: Thank you for doing this so glory. Have you ever
Speaker 1: have these moments or have you in your life where
Speaker 1: you're like, I can't believe I'm meeting so and so,
Speaker 1: Like when was the last time you felt the way
Speaker 1: people feel when they meet you. Well, I can't speak
Speaker 1: for how other people feel, but certainly meeting Hillary Clinton.
Speaker 1: They're all kinds of people who um especially authors and
Speaker 1: people you've seen on film. You know, it means something
Speaker 1: special because it's somebody that you've seen and means a
Speaker 1: lot to you, and then suddenly there they are, you know.
Speaker 1: So yes, right, okay, so you understand us? Yeah? No, no, absolutely, Okay.
Speaker 1: I think we we when we symbolize things to each other.
Speaker 1: I mean, the first person I felt that about was
Speaker 1: Louisa May Alcott when I was a child, and I
Speaker 1: read everything, not only Little Women, but everything she ever wrote,
Speaker 1: and I used to fantasize that she would be alive again,
Speaker 1: and what would I say to her? And where would
Speaker 1: I take her? And what would you have said to her?
Speaker 1: Have you met her? Do you think? Well? I would
Speaker 1: have said, you know how much I loved her writing,
Speaker 1: you know. In addition to writing Little Women, uh and
Speaker 1: other stories for young readers, she wrote some very realistic
Speaker 1: and somewhat depressed stories about the Civil War era. She
Speaker 1: was lad a really different and interesting life. Have you
Speaker 1: always been a reader? Yes? Absolutely always. I always thought
Speaker 1: that when I was growing up that if I started
Speaker 1: a book, I had to go straight through it until
Speaker 1: I finished, so I would stay up all night. And
Speaker 1: this was made easier because I wasn't going to school
Speaker 1: most of the time. My parents had a summer resort
Speaker 1: in Michigan, and on the non summer months we would
Speaker 1: get in the house trailer and drive to California or Florida.
Speaker 1: So rather than going to school, I was on the
Speaker 1: road reading books, and you know, reading. So what are
Speaker 1: you like? It's such a silly, crazy question to ask you.
Speaker 1: But what are you most proud of in your life? Ah?
Speaker 1: That's interesting. Well, I think I'm proud that I survived
Speaker 1: my childhood, which or my say from eight to sixteen
Speaker 1: year old hood because I my mother was an invalid.
Speaker 1: I was looking after her. We were living alone in
Speaker 1: a terrible old in Toledo. It was it was not easy,
Speaker 1: and I'm kind of amazed that I survived that. Wow.
Speaker 1: And what part of your success? I mean, first of all,
Speaker 1: do you feel successful? Uh? No, I don't. I mean
Speaker 1: I don't feel either a failure or a success. I
Speaker 1: feel like excited about the next project, worried that I
Speaker 1: haven't met the next deadline. You know, it's it's more
Speaker 1: living in the present. How about fulfilled? Do you feel fulfilled? Yes?
Speaker 1: I do. I do, and I feel that if I'm
Speaker 1: not fulfilled, there's no reason outside myself. Perhaps because I
Speaker 1: have not had children, so I have not had to
Speaker 1: meet those needs and I'm no longer looking after my mother.
Speaker 1: I feel I'm able to be responsible for myself. And
Speaker 1: what are some of your goals? Like do you want
Speaker 1: a podcast? I think you need a podcast that and
Speaker 1: I barely know what a podcast is. I mean, you know,
Speaker 1: you're doing great. It's a conversation. It's people talking and
Speaker 1: sharing the conversation. Could you tell a Julie about your
Speaker 1: conversation circles in your house, because I was lucky enough
Speaker 1: to be in one. Yes, those are talking circles, which
Speaker 1: I think are an institution beginning in Native American times
Speaker 1: before Europeans ever showed up. So there was a circle
Speaker 1: of people, each of whom had a turn speaking. In fact,
Speaker 1: there was a talking stick that people passed around so
Speaker 1: that when you held it you could speak, and then
Speaker 1: you passed it to the next person. And I think
Speaker 1: still that's the best form of human organization because everybody
Speaker 1: gets to speak, everybody listens. It means that everyone learns.
Speaker 1: It's also calm, hopefully non violent. I mean, it's not
Speaker 1: like two opposing sides the miniature in a circle. It's
Speaker 1: better than being in a hierarchy. So I think that's
Speaker 1: a very important form. Yeah, you did. That was one
Speaker 1: of the formats of of the talk that you did
Speaker 1: with Annie lebo Wiz is that we were all in
Speaker 1: community and in stress. And it was really a fascinating
Speaker 1: dynamic because as much as we were all looking to
Speaker 1: you and Annie to lead the conversation, sort of take
Speaker 1: us through the exhibit and take us through these really
Speaker 1: complicated feelings that we were all having in that moment
Speaker 1: and sort of the heat at that moment um. There
Speaker 1: was something so leveling and opening about that format that
Speaker 1: I was really surprised by because it's something that's sort
Speaker 1: of very native to Indian culture. Annie. As as you
Speaker 1: may have noticed, Annie is incredibly shoy. Yes she is.
Speaker 1: She kept leaning over to me and talking, and I
Speaker 1: was like, everybody's over there, Like everyone's over there waiting
Speaker 1: for you. But I felt like I was monopolizing when
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, I think she's you know, she's
Speaker 1: more comfortable having you lead. You know. So some some
Speaker 1: other great photographer, the past Avadon or somebody probably might
Speaker 1: have felt okay lecturing about their photographs, but Annie definitely
Speaker 1: did not. And because I had gone to her first exhibit,
Speaker 1: she asked me too and reformed a talking circle as
Speaker 1: you remember. Then she asked me to continue to do that.
Speaker 1: So actually I traveled with her to quite a few
Speaker 1: different countries, from England to Mexico City with that exhibit,
Speaker 1: and talking circle was always part of the exhibit. By
Speaker 1: the way, one more thing on the podcast, your own podcast.
Speaker 1: People would tune in to hear what you have to say.
Speaker 1: But we have so many things to teach the younger generation,
Speaker 1: you know, the women that are just coming up, and
Speaker 1: who better than you to lead the conversation or to
Speaker 1: start the conversation. I agree, well, and and we have
Speaker 1: so many things to learn from them, you know. So
Speaker 1: if we could figure out a way to have a
Speaker 1: talking circle on a podcast, Yeah, maybe you can help
Speaker 1: me with that. I will, I will follow up on that.
Speaker 1: I you know me, I see things and I kind
Speaker 1: of get them to happen. So yes, I would say
Speaker 1: that's an understatement. Yeah, well I still can't even believe
Speaker 1: that you know me, Like I can't even believe that
Speaker 1: I know you and I. It's just kind of that
Speaker 1: crazy world. Yeah, well why not? I mean, look at
Speaker 1: what you've accomplished. I mean, you're there aren't many women
Speaker 1: who are called titans of a whole industry, but I
Speaker 1: noticed that people refer to you that way. They also
Speaker 1: call her the O G. We refer to Bobby as
Speaker 1: the O G a lot. I feel like people would
Speaker 1: say that about you tube Claria, But do you know
Speaker 1: what the O G is Gloria. Okay, I didn't either.
Speaker 1: When someone called me the o G. I had to
Speaker 1: ask my kids it meant it means original gangster. Oh
Speaker 1: no kidding, yes, so, but of beauty. But I'm a beauty.
Speaker 1: You are women women's empowerment, you know, women's empowerment. Well,
Speaker 1: I've just learned something. I mean, you know, thank you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: I'm going to put this in my bio. I'm going
Speaker 1: to write down to my bio that I tell you
Speaker 1: what it means, and we're going to get her one
Speaker 1: of those gold necklaces that says O G on it.
Speaker 1: You know, those cool wrapped necklaces, and you're going to
Speaker 1: walk into some event and I'm like, look at how
Speaker 1: cool glorious steinum is. You know what what what you
Speaker 1: must do? And I found very difficult even when we
Speaker 1: had Miss Magazine, which obviously was our own creation, was
Speaker 1: being regularly present nine to five um and being responsible
Speaker 1: for a structure and for paying salaries. I mean, that
Speaker 1: is a huge, huge responsibility. I don't do that. I
Speaker 1: have someone that does that. I am no, but honestly
Speaker 1: because of you, I mean, there wouldn't be but it's
Speaker 1: the same. I mean, I'm only successful because I hire
Speaker 1: people around me that do things I don't. I can't do.
Speaker 1: I I don't know how to type. I've written nine books.
Speaker 1: I do not know how to type. And I, you know,
Speaker 1: I asked an Julie to do this with me because
Speaker 1: she's so incredibly well read and smart and I'm just,
Speaker 1: you know, observant and I kind of so it's just
Speaker 1: nice to have different people around each other. No, I
Speaker 1: I totally agree with you. And the Miss Magazine was
Speaker 1: somewhat like that. But for instance, I remember the trauma
Speaker 1: of ever having to fire anybody at Miss Magazine. You know,
Speaker 1: they would have breakfast with pet Carbine for six weeks
Speaker 1: and lunch with me for three weeks, and then we
Speaker 1: would find them a fellowship, right exactly, Yes, Seinfeldt, they
Speaker 1: call it foisting. You like to voice the people you
Speaker 1: don't want around you. Yeah, let's get them another job.
Speaker 1: And now now what happens They hire people like me
Speaker 1: to do the fire, which is such a bummer, But
Speaker 1: that's that's the kind of stuff I got hired to do.
Speaker 1: Did you have to do that? And Julie, did you
Speaker 1: always have? Yeah? Not always. I had never fired anybody
Speaker 1: until the last full time job I had, and they
Speaker 1: hired me as the chief people Officer in addition to
Speaker 1: a g C role, and so I had to start
Speaker 1: firing people and it was just awful. But I would
Speaker 1: spend like weeks counseling them out. I mean, I basically
Speaker 1: found them internships. I was doing the same thing because
Speaker 1: I was like, don't you want to pursue your dreams?
Speaker 1: I was like, what about this other thing you might
Speaker 1: want to do? And now I'm really good at it,
Speaker 1: but I sort of and be able to convince people
Speaker 1: it's their idea because that's how good I am. So like,
Speaker 1: I don't feel like, this is you living to your
Speaker 1: highest potential. Yeah, I think I think that that's a
Speaker 1: probably a very female cultural thing. Don't you think that
Speaker 1: it is difficult because our our model of governance is
Speaker 1: the family, and you don't fire someone from the family.
Speaker 1: But there's moments I really wanted to Gloria, how do
Speaker 1: I cancel that? Actually? I have a question to you
Speaker 1: about family. I was listening to and interview did and
Speaker 1: you were talking about how when girls, in particular, when
Speaker 1: they're about eleven twelve years old, that that's when they
Speaker 1: start losing their self confidence. And I hadn't heard it
Speaker 1: said that clearly that it was that age exactly. And interestingly,
Speaker 1: my daughter is exactly that. She's a love and going
Speaker 1: on twelve, you know, sort of any day now. Um,
Speaker 1: and I'm seeing that difference, and it's really upsetting. You know.
Speaker 1: It's because she's the kind of kid that I think,
Speaker 1: like so many kids, she just thought the world was
Speaker 1: always her, she could do anything, she was unstoppable, all
Speaker 1: these things. And then suddenly there's it's like confidence gap
Speaker 1: kind of coming up right now where she's starting to
Speaker 1: doubt herself in a way that um, that is it
Speaker 1: just feels like it's society kind of telling her all
Speaker 1: the things she can't do, even in this moment of
Speaker 1: the futures female. And I don't know what to do.
Speaker 1: I don't know how to help her. I don't know
Speaker 1: how to to push her along. Well it is, I mean,
Speaker 1: I in a general way, I think it's because the
Speaker 1: gender role comes begins to come down upon us then,
Speaker 1: I mean, gender doesn't really care about us until we're
Speaker 1: a reproductive age in a way, so until we're I
Speaker 1: don't know, seven or eight or nine or ten. We
Speaker 1: can climb trees and say I know what I want,
Speaker 1: I know what I think, and then then gender comes
Speaker 1: comes down upon us. So it just I think becomes
Speaker 1: especially important that you and her family and her friends, uh,
Speaker 1: emphasize listening to her, you know, and that what she
Speaker 1: says and what she wants, what she hopes to do
Speaker 1: in the future, all those things are just as important
Speaker 1: as if she was a male human being. And also
Speaker 1: know that the kids. Now that my kids are older,
Speaker 1: two of them are married. You don't think you teach them,
Speaker 1: but then you watch them and you realize they learned
Speaker 1: watching you. So you being you know, the right role
Speaker 1: model is more important than what you say because at
Speaker 1: one point she's not going to listen to you. Yeah,
Speaker 1: that's that's start started. Yeah no, no, what you what
Speaker 1: you what you do is is even more important than
Speaker 1: what you say. But I hope you're now you're parenting
Speaker 1: is paying off right because you're seeing them parents. Oh
Speaker 1: it's unbelievable. My kids have dogs. They're newly married, they
Speaker 1: have dogs, and they're really strict dog parents. So you know,
Speaker 1: I was not a strict mother, but um, but they
Speaker 1: turned out okay, you know, So I mean, so the
Speaker 1: question is Gloria, what are the important things in life?
Speaker 1: Like what does that mean to you? And has it
Speaker 1: changed from when you were, you know, just starting out
Speaker 1: to now. Well, I think that when I was younger,
Speaker 1: survival was the important thing because things were tough after that.
Speaker 1: I think I was trying to do. Um. I knew
Speaker 1: I was supposed to get married, have children, and lead
Speaker 1: a particular kind of life, especially because I'm talking the
Speaker 1: nineteen fifties here, Okay, right, Uh, So I was rebelling,
Speaker 1: but I was hoping no one would notice, and I
Speaker 1: was just doing it for the moment. So I went
Speaker 1: off and lived in India for two years. I came
Speaker 1: back and became a freelance writer. But I kept thinking
Speaker 1: that I would conform, and I think I managed to
Speaker 1: continue that until I was about forty, and then I realized,
Speaker 1: wait a minute, this is my life and I'm kind
Speaker 1: of happy this way, and so what's important to you now? Uh?
Speaker 1: What's important to me is um kindness, I think, I mean,
Speaker 1: I I don't want to be part of exchanges that
Speaker 1: are cruel or exploiting or unfair. I try my best
Speaker 1: not to do that. Um I am. I wish that
Speaker 1: I wrote every day. That's important to me, but I
Speaker 1: don't do it because actually I email every day. But
Speaker 1: that's not necessarily the same thing. Not the same thing, um,
Speaker 1: but it's separate from those that are kind of goal related.
Speaker 1: I think it's just being alive in the present, you
Speaker 1: know what, whatever you're doing, just trying to keep your
Speaker 1: senses open. Do you have a certain ritual, like you know,
Speaker 1: I'm someone that I drink a couple of glasses of
Speaker 1: water every morning, then I have a coffee, then I
Speaker 1: open up my iPad. Do you have a routine? Um No,
Speaker 1: I'm already envying the water thing because I understand that
Speaker 1: that's important. I should do that right and when it
Speaker 1: becomes a habit and then you're used, you know, I
Speaker 1: fully realized that. Then I'll try to resolve to be
Speaker 1: better about that. Um, you're doing something right, glory, I think.
Speaker 1: I think we can. You know, whatever you're doing is working.
Speaker 1: But I have orange juice and then I think, okay,
Speaker 1: I should have a little protein, whatever form that takes.
Speaker 1: And then I look at my email and see if
Speaker 1: there's any emergency or anything that can require action at
Speaker 1: the moment, and that usually ends up taking way too
Speaker 1: much of the day. So I can only say that
Speaker 1: the book that I owe my publisher is vastly overdue.
Speaker 1: So is there anything besides drinking water that you wish
Speaker 1: that you would include into your day to day I am,
Speaker 1: you know, also a health coach on the side, so
Speaker 1: I I know certain little things do help. Mm hmm.
Speaker 1: You don't exercise, right, I don't. Oh me neither. I
Speaker 1: don't look at that I have something in common. No stretching, No,
Speaker 1: I don't. I stretch, No, not really. I mean occasionally
Speaker 1: I t but I wouldn't. I would not be telling
Speaker 1: the truth if I said that I did this with
Speaker 1: any regularity. So that would be a New Yorker. So
Speaker 1: you walk everywhere, right, I mean you're in New York. Yes,
Speaker 1: Well I was walking everywhere then and then I sprained
Speaker 1: my ankle, so I've been indoors for a while, so
Speaker 1: I have to recondition myself. So what do you think
Speaker 1: you learned during the pandemic about yourself? Mm hmm. Well,
Speaker 1: I learned that the habits that I have acquired were
Speaker 1: useful during the pandemic. That is, because I was not
Speaker 1: accustomed to going to an office. I had been traveling
Speaker 1: quite a lot, and you know that happened no more.
Speaker 1: But as I was saying, writers are accustomed to staying
Speaker 1: at home and that became a useful habit, I also
Speaker 1: discovered that there was a limit to that. I mean,
Speaker 1: after three months of staying at home essentially by myself,
Speaker 1: I did take the opportunity to travel to California and
Speaker 1: stay on friends ranch, so that I had some change
Speaker 1: of view and it wasn't going stir crazy. I guess
Speaker 1: I also learned once again that I'm a alcoholic because
Speaker 1: I kept thinking, Okay, now that everybody is equally vulnerable
Speaker 1: to this organism, whatever it is, and the organism pays
Speaker 1: no attention to gender or race or class or age,
Speaker 1: maybe it will help us to stop paying so much
Speaker 1: attention to those things. Do you think it has impacted
Speaker 1: any of it? No, I have no no objective proof
Speaker 1: in terms of even surveys or public opinion polls, but
Speaker 1: I do think so, don't you. I mean, since COVID
Speaker 1: didn't respect national boundaries and didn't respect race or class either,
Speaker 1: certainly there's a difference in healthcare that is very political,
Speaker 1: But in terms of getting COVID, uh, there was no difference.
Speaker 1: So I'm hoping that that equalization will carry into the future.
Speaker 1: I worry that it it just exaggerated all the differences though.
Speaker 1: I mean, I think I'm sort of saying things are
Speaker 1: probably obvious, but it was It's like, yeah, we're all
Speaker 1: writing in the same storm, but we have very different
Speaker 1: size boats to get us through it, and very different
Speaker 1: types of paddling equipment. Yes. No, I mean it's certainly.
Speaker 1: It's certainly exposed the inequities of our health care system.
Speaker 1: I mean, we're the only major democracy in the world
Speaker 1: without universal healthcare, and that's to the detriment of everybody. Yeah,
Speaker 1: and and hopefully at least the conversation is out there.
Speaker 1: There were things we weren't talking about before, and now
Speaker 1: everyone's at least talking about it. But we started this
Speaker 1: discussion with you talking about kindness. And I do think
Speaker 1: that people are getting or becoming more kind and realizing
Speaker 1: that that's the way they should be. So that's to
Speaker 1: me one positive thing. Yeah, and I hope you're right.
Speaker 1: And I think there are other pluses of this period
Speaker 1: of time. I mean, men have been at home more,
Speaker 1: men have been at home with their children and gotten
Speaker 1: to know their children, seeing whore that takes to do
Speaker 1: to childcare. That's helpful. And my father, who's eighty six
Speaker 1: years old and lives by himself, discovered how to do
Speaker 1: laundry and swift ng and you know, he takes boxing
Speaker 1: and he reads to kids in schools, you know, on
Speaker 1: his on his computer. So you know, there there is
Speaker 1: hope for for everyone. H do you read or watch
Speaker 1: the news? I do watch the news. I mean, I
Speaker 1: compulsively watch the news, even though it's repetitive. Somehow I
Speaker 1: keep thinking there's going to be a new detail, and
Speaker 1: if I don't watch it, then I wonder what's happening.
Speaker 1: I don't watch anything else except the news regularly, except
Speaker 1: Law and Order. Somehow I got Mariska harget Is, who
Speaker 1: I actually met a few days ago for the first time.
Speaker 1: It is a great figure, a great female heroine. I
Speaker 1: think on television, just seeing everything that's happening right now
Speaker 1: in the news, how do you try to not feel
Speaker 1: demoralized based on all the kind of rollbocks of abortion
Speaker 1: rights and all these things that you fought so hard for.
Speaker 1: And then I feel like we're still fighting for today
Speaker 1: because I feel like myself, I mean, and I know
Speaker 1: so many of my friends and colleagues and sort of
Speaker 1: women in arms are feeling just exhausted. Well, you know,
Speaker 1: I think we should recognize that controlling reproduction is always
Speaker 1: the first or as far as we know, the first
Speaker 1: step in every dictatorship. I mean, the first thing that
Speaker 1: Hitler did when he was elected was to padlock the
Speaker 1: family Plan and clinics and declare abortion a crime against
Speaker 1: the state, and so did Mussolini. We we we understand
Speaker 1: instinctively that if we don't as women govern our own bodies,
Speaker 1: were not living in a democracy. But I don't think
Speaker 1: we understand that it's the basis of the Controlling our
Speaker 1: own bodies, men and women is the basis of democracy.
Speaker 1: So if I could actually one final thing, which is
Speaker 1: someone that's listening to this interview, if you could tell
Speaker 1: them one thing that, according to you, that would change
Speaker 1: the course of their life for the better, what would
Speaker 1: it be? Mm hmm. That's so difficult. But if I
Speaker 1: if I try to think of something that is within
Speaker 1: their control rather than having to do with living and
Speaker 1: food and you know, outside support, I would just say
Speaker 1: that there's a kind of instant democracy in listening as
Speaker 1: much as you talk, and talking as much as you listen.
Speaker 1: Women often are taught to be good listeners, but not
Speaker 1: necessarily to express themselves. Men may be taught the reverse, uh, stereotypically,
Speaker 1: so all of us can gain from equalizing those two
Speaker 1: human functions. So honestly, this has been such a joy
Speaker 1: to have you on this glory. I can't believe that
Speaker 1: you said. Yes. We are both so happy to to
Speaker 1: talk to you and to share your story and to
Speaker 1: really introduce everything you have done your entire life to
Speaker 1: a new generation and just to keep just to keep going.
Speaker 1: And you'r and I want you to keep going. Come on,
Speaker 1: I'm coming over. We're going to stretch, alright, And yes,
Speaker 1: I want you to keep going. Yeah right, no, well
Speaker 1: I and I'm so glad. I mean that at least
Speaker 1: technology has given us this little talking circle of our
Speaker 1: own here. Uh. And it's not the same as being
Speaker 1: together physically, but it's the next best thing. So I
Speaker 1: thank you very much for coming into my bedroom so
Speaker 1: to spirit, which is where I'm sitting