1 00:00:06,680 --> 00:00:07,840 Speaker 1: Amy Roboc and TJ. 2 00:00:07,960 --> 00:00:15,040 Speaker 2: Holmes present Killer Thriller with your host Alisa Donovan. Hey everyone, 3 00:00:15,200 --> 00:00:19,080 Speaker 2: Elisa Donovan here and welcome to Killer Thriller. Today, we 4 00:00:19,120 --> 00:00:23,200 Speaker 2: are continuing our deep dive with forensic psychologist doctor Rachel 5 00:00:23,360 --> 00:00:28,040 Speaker 2: Toles into American Sports Story Aaron Hernandez, the series that 6 00:00:28,120 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 2: explores the shocking rise and fall of one of the 7 00:00:31,320 --> 00:00:35,080 Speaker 2: NFL's most talented and most troubling figures. 8 00:00:35,520 --> 00:00:36,600 Speaker 1: One thing that also. 9 00:00:36,360 --> 00:00:38,959 Speaker 2: Stands out to me in this series is that how 10 00:00:39,000 --> 00:00:43,960 Speaker 2: many institutions kept pushing him forward because he was so talented, 11 00:00:44,240 --> 00:00:47,599 Speaker 2: whether it's the high school, college football, the NFL, and 12 00:00:47,720 --> 00:00:52,519 Speaker 2: there just are seemingly no consequences for these athletes and 13 00:00:52,560 --> 00:00:56,800 Speaker 2: the lawyers getting them out of all sorts of abominable behavior. 14 00:00:56,960 --> 00:00:58,520 Speaker 1: And do you think that these. 15 00:01:00,240 --> 00:01:04,840 Speaker 2: Powerful systems sometimes unintentionally can enable dangerous behavior. 16 00:01:05,120 --> 00:01:09,600 Speaker 3: Absolutely. I mean, here's the thing we reward as a society. 17 00:01:10,760 --> 00:01:15,000 Speaker 3: We reward whatever makes money and whatever's entertaining. So that 18 00:01:15,080 --> 00:01:17,160 Speaker 3: means that a person can be out of their mind, 19 00:01:17,920 --> 00:01:20,960 Speaker 3: completely out of their mind. But if they're entertaining, then 20 00:01:21,120 --> 00:01:23,720 Speaker 3: just keep paying them because because people are wanting more, 21 00:01:24,200 --> 00:01:26,720 Speaker 3: no one really worries about their mental stage. I mean, 22 00:01:27,280 --> 00:01:30,520 Speaker 3: how many people have been entertainers or you know. 23 00:01:30,880 --> 00:01:31,720 Speaker 1: So many actors. 24 00:01:31,800 --> 00:01:34,800 Speaker 2: I mean, I guess so many actors an actor familiar 25 00:01:34,880 --> 00:01:36,039 Speaker 2: names exactly, I. 26 00:01:35,959 --> 00:01:40,119 Speaker 3: Mean actors they are. It is so fascinating. I often 27 00:01:40,120 --> 00:01:42,560 Speaker 3: compare because you know, Jack Nicholson had a very similar 28 00:01:42,640 --> 00:01:45,319 Speaker 3: upbringing to Ted Bundy, but there were a couple of 29 00:01:45,319 --> 00:01:49,240 Speaker 3: differences that then Jack Nicholson into who he became versus 30 00:01:49,680 --> 00:01:53,080 Speaker 3: Ted Bundy. Right, So you know, because no, because it's strange, 31 00:01:53,120 --> 00:01:54,800 Speaker 3: like just if you want, I can quickly tell. 32 00:01:54,680 --> 00:01:57,520 Speaker 1: You that that's because yeah. 33 00:01:57,440 --> 00:02:00,720 Speaker 3: Yeah, okay, so I'll just yeah. So basically they were 34 00:02:00,960 --> 00:02:02,880 Speaker 3: so this is it's a crazy story. A lot of 35 00:02:02,880 --> 00:02:06,720 Speaker 3: people don't know it. So when Ted Bundy so okay, 36 00:02:06,760 --> 00:02:09,440 Speaker 3: so okay, where do I start. So both Ted Bundy's 37 00:02:09,880 --> 00:02:13,359 Speaker 3: mother and Jack Nichols's mother got pregnant by a man 38 00:02:13,520 --> 00:02:16,240 Speaker 3: they didn't really know. So and this is at a 39 00:02:16,280 --> 00:02:18,560 Speaker 3: time where there was a lot of stigma. So your 40 00:02:18,680 --> 00:02:21,320 Speaker 3: child was going to be illegitimate, that's what they called them. 41 00:02:21,320 --> 00:02:24,400 Speaker 3: You're an illegitimate child because it's outside of marriage. Right, 42 00:02:24,720 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 3: And both of these women, you know Ted Bundy's mother 43 00:02:28,720 --> 00:02:31,240 Speaker 3: first of all, Ted Bundy's mother tried to abort him. 44 00:02:31,280 --> 00:02:34,600 Speaker 3: She took an abortion pill, how he survived, and how 45 00:02:34,600 --> 00:02:37,240 Speaker 3: this pill affected his developing brain. I mean, these are 46 00:02:37,320 --> 00:02:39,080 Speaker 3: the things again we just think, oh, he was a 47 00:02:39,160 --> 00:02:41,520 Speaker 3: normal childhood. No he did not, and he also did 48 00:02:41,520 --> 00:02:44,560 Speaker 3: not have a normal brain. But anyway, so but he 49 00:02:44,560 --> 00:02:46,639 Speaker 3: he then she gave birth to him at the Home 50 00:02:46,680 --> 00:02:50,400 Speaker 3: for Unwed Mothers and and that's exactly what happened with 51 00:02:51,040 --> 00:02:55,160 Speaker 3: Jack Nicholson, you know. But they were brought home on 52 00:02:55,240 --> 00:02:58,919 Speaker 3: the one condition that the family maintained the fiction that 53 00:02:59,040 --> 00:03:02,080 Speaker 3: mom is the sister and that the grandparents of the parents, 54 00:03:02,120 --> 00:03:04,280 Speaker 3: and so that's how these guys were raised. So they 55 00:03:04,400 --> 00:03:07,440 Speaker 3: were raised believing that their mother was their sister. 56 00:03:08,040 --> 00:03:09,920 Speaker 1: And they can't really. 57 00:03:09,680 --> 00:03:11,880 Speaker 3: Bond that much because the neighbors will catch on. So 58 00:03:11,880 --> 00:03:15,280 Speaker 3: there's not a whole lot of good attachment that's probably 59 00:03:15,280 --> 00:03:19,240 Speaker 3: going on there, right. But the difference is for Ted Bundy, 60 00:03:19,560 --> 00:03:22,760 Speaker 3: is that his grandmother, who played the role of his mother, 61 00:03:22,960 --> 00:03:25,280 Speaker 3: was in an out of mental hospitals receiving shock treatment, 62 00:03:25,919 --> 00:03:28,320 Speaker 3: and so he couldn't really bond with her either. And 63 00:03:28,360 --> 00:03:32,519 Speaker 3: then Grandpa Sam was a really like scary, raging alcoholic. 64 00:03:32,560 --> 00:03:35,040 Speaker 3: He was doing all sorts of things was Jack Nicholson's 65 00:03:36,040 --> 00:03:40,560 Speaker 3: grandfather was not as violent or abusive or anything like that. 66 00:03:40,840 --> 00:03:46,160 Speaker 3: And he was also really he was, you know, encouraged 67 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:48,160 Speaker 3: to get into the arts and. 68 00:03:48,080 --> 00:03:51,600 Speaker 1: To express to express themselves, express it creatively. 69 00:03:51,720 --> 00:03:53,960 Speaker 3: And so he played the role of the joker. He 70 00:03:54,080 --> 00:03:57,080 Speaker 3: played the role of you know, I think Jack and 71 00:03:57,160 --> 00:04:00,320 Speaker 3: the Shining or what's his nag. Yeah, so he's playing 72 00:04:00,360 --> 00:04:03,880 Speaker 3: these roles, but then he of course lives this other life, 73 00:04:03,920 --> 00:04:08,200 Speaker 3: whereas Ted Bundy is the roles you know, So like right, 74 00:04:09,400 --> 00:04:12,360 Speaker 3: you know, Jack Nicholson didn't find out that his family 75 00:04:12,440 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 3: was a lie until he read about it in Time 76 00:04:14,880 --> 00:04:16,640 Speaker 3: magazine in nineteen seventy four. 77 00:04:17,120 --> 00:04:17,640 Speaker 1: Oh my god. 78 00:04:17,720 --> 00:04:19,960 Speaker 2: Okay, we are definitely having you back to talking about 79 00:04:20,000 --> 00:04:20,560 Speaker 2: these things. 80 00:04:21,920 --> 00:04:25,960 Speaker 1: I apologize all I go up to listen. 81 00:04:26,200 --> 00:04:30,400 Speaker 2: I want to hear all of it. But okay, let's 82 00:04:30,440 --> 00:04:32,960 Speaker 2: get back to Aaron Hernandez for a minute. Okay, So 83 00:04:33,200 --> 00:04:37,720 Speaker 2: Urban Meyer, who was the coach at Florida University of Florida. Yes, 84 00:04:39,680 --> 00:04:43,719 Speaker 2: him pushing Aaron to graduate early and come to Florida 85 00:04:43,880 --> 00:04:49,040 Speaker 2: is really a pretty striking thing in hindsight, and the 86 00:04:49,080 --> 00:04:51,960 Speaker 2: series really shows that no one ever slowed down to 87 00:04:52,080 --> 00:04:56,159 Speaker 2: care about his him, his psychological life, and whether he 88 00:04:56,200 --> 00:04:59,680 Speaker 2: was emotionally able to do that. How hard is it 89 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:03,200 Speaker 2: to focus on the trauma while not excusing the violence. 90 00:05:03,320 --> 00:05:06,760 Speaker 3: I mean for me, it's it's you know, that's the 91 00:05:06,839 --> 00:05:09,400 Speaker 3: number one thing I focus on. To me, I think 92 00:05:09,480 --> 00:05:11,719 Speaker 3: we're all I look at all human beings as like 93 00:05:12,480 --> 00:05:15,039 Speaker 3: little kindergarteners. I mean I'm not again, but like if 94 00:05:15,080 --> 00:05:19,120 Speaker 3: you think about everybody in your life, who anybody who 95 00:05:19,240 --> 00:05:21,600 Speaker 3: is your age or older, you know exactly who they 96 00:05:21,600 --> 00:05:24,560 Speaker 3: were in kindergarten because we haven't changed that much from 97 00:05:24,600 --> 00:05:26,720 Speaker 3: when we were four or five years old. We just 98 00:05:26,760 --> 00:05:29,760 Speaker 3: are kind of the same essence, if you will. And 99 00:05:29,800 --> 00:05:33,640 Speaker 3: so for me, I think as a society, we're really 100 00:05:33,680 --> 00:05:37,640 Speaker 3: good at accusing other people of having no empathy, but 101 00:05:37,680 --> 00:05:39,680 Speaker 3: we're not really good at looking at the lack of 102 00:05:39,720 --> 00:05:42,760 Speaker 3: empathy we feel for the people we accuse. And I 103 00:05:42,760 --> 00:05:45,640 Speaker 3: think that's one of my biggest issues. It's like, we're 104 00:05:45,640 --> 00:05:48,400 Speaker 3: great at accusing other people of lacking empathy, but when 105 00:05:48,440 --> 00:05:50,760 Speaker 3: we don't have empathy for them, what's up with that? 106 00:05:50,960 --> 00:05:52,160 Speaker 1: Why aren't we asking rights? 107 00:05:52,360 --> 00:05:54,719 Speaker 3: For me? I have a great deal of compassion for 108 00:05:54,839 --> 00:05:59,440 Speaker 3: the child that became the man who then completely unraveled 109 00:05:59,839 --> 00:06:03,440 Speaker 3: and basically re enacted things that he didn't he was 110 00:06:03,560 --> 00:06:06,240 Speaker 3: unable to put together properly in his brain. And that's 111 00:06:06,480 --> 00:06:09,640 Speaker 3: basically what we're talking about with almost all murder cases 112 00:06:09,640 --> 00:06:11,760 Speaker 3: and what because most people aren't killers, they don't go 113 00:06:11,960 --> 00:06:18,760 Speaker 3: malfunction like this. So I have absolute compassion and curiosity 114 00:06:18,800 --> 00:06:22,360 Speaker 3: about the people who malfunction. I absolutely do not excuse 115 00:06:22,400 --> 00:06:25,320 Speaker 3: so for me, I don't find I mean, of course, 116 00:06:25,360 --> 00:06:27,880 Speaker 3: with Odin Lloyd, I mean, it is so tragic and 117 00:06:27,920 --> 00:06:31,440 Speaker 3: I feel horrible for the fambos. Number One, you have 118 00:06:31,520 --> 00:06:34,440 Speaker 3: to always feel sympathy and show respect for the victim 119 00:06:34,520 --> 00:06:38,159 Speaker 3: and for their loved ones, because again, it's just unfortunate 120 00:06:38,200 --> 00:06:41,760 Speaker 3: that sometimes you've just got an innocent person who just 121 00:06:41,880 --> 00:06:45,400 Speaker 3: gets caught in the crossfire of someone awfunctioning. And so, 122 00:06:45,520 --> 00:06:48,479 Speaker 3: but when you look at somebody like Aaron Hernandez, it's 123 00:06:48,560 --> 00:06:51,359 Speaker 3: kind of like like he really is like a bus 124 00:06:51,440 --> 00:06:54,320 Speaker 3: that like malfunctioned. And we don't call buses bad, like 125 00:06:54,360 --> 00:06:57,240 Speaker 3: some buses are just bad. It's like or something in 126 00:06:57,279 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 3: the wiring malfunctioned and cause the bus to go off 127 00:07:00,040 --> 00:07:03,720 Speaker 3: the rails and kill one or possibly more people Like 128 00:07:04,160 --> 00:07:07,760 Speaker 3: this is we don't. But by labeling it again, we're 129 00:07:07,800 --> 00:07:11,560 Speaker 3: not actually then looking at how a person could get there. 130 00:07:11,760 --> 00:07:13,720 Speaker 1: Right the source and how we get there. 131 00:07:14,800 --> 00:07:17,320 Speaker 2: So this also the show also talks about how football 132 00:07:17,360 --> 00:07:22,760 Speaker 2: gave Aaron structure and identity. So what happens when somebody's 133 00:07:23,400 --> 00:07:26,120 Speaker 2: entire self worth gets tied to performance? 134 00:07:27,800 --> 00:07:30,680 Speaker 3: Yeah, I mean that's it. I mean that right there 135 00:07:30,920 --> 00:07:34,280 Speaker 3: is What the problem is with a lot of people 136 00:07:34,360 --> 00:07:40,000 Speaker 3: who kill is that if their entire identity is about performance, 137 00:07:40,080 --> 00:07:44,200 Speaker 3: then what's going on inside? And if there's not really 138 00:07:44,240 --> 00:07:49,400 Speaker 3: a deep connection inside, then that's where the mental illness 139 00:07:49,400 --> 00:07:52,960 Speaker 3: can really kind of spiral out of control because there's 140 00:07:53,040 --> 00:07:57,520 Speaker 3: not really a connection to self to know what am 141 00:07:57,560 --> 00:08:00,240 Speaker 3: I actually up to? Here the introspection, it's like I 142 00:08:00,320 --> 00:08:04,200 Speaker 3: have to perform to survive. Basically he learned his whole 143 00:08:04,280 --> 00:08:07,840 Speaker 3: like it was all about survival and that's it. Like 144 00:08:07,920 --> 00:08:10,440 Speaker 3: I have to perform to survive. I have to perform 145 00:08:10,600 --> 00:08:14,200 Speaker 3: being straight guy. I have to perform being football guy 146 00:08:14,240 --> 00:08:15,960 Speaker 3: who wins. I have to win it all. I have 147 00:08:16,000 --> 00:08:20,920 Speaker 3: to perform whatever Dad wanted, and I'm not lovable otherwise. 148 00:08:21,000 --> 00:08:23,200 Speaker 3: Like all they know is they're fighting for their life 149 00:08:23,320 --> 00:08:26,440 Speaker 3: to survive, and that's what the performance is. But it's 150 00:08:26,480 --> 00:08:31,160 Speaker 3: such a hypervigilance that for them to stop and say, 151 00:08:31,160 --> 00:08:33,360 Speaker 3: wait a minute, who am I? I mean, that doesn't 152 00:08:33,440 --> 00:08:35,640 Speaker 3: really cross there. It's not about who they are. It's 153 00:08:35,679 --> 00:08:38,360 Speaker 3: all about survival. And if it's all about survival, then 154 00:08:38,400 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 3: it is all about in the moment, I have to 155 00:08:40,559 --> 00:08:43,600 Speaker 3: dominate in order to survive. I have to do whatever 156 00:08:43,640 --> 00:08:45,720 Speaker 3: it takes to survive. And then of course you add 157 00:08:45,760 --> 00:08:48,600 Speaker 3: the alcohol, the drugs, the things that are causing them 158 00:08:48,600 --> 00:08:52,920 Speaker 3: to malfunction, then the reality again goes out the window 159 00:08:52,960 --> 00:08:56,040 Speaker 3: to the point where whoever's in their way or whoever's 160 00:08:56,080 --> 00:08:58,120 Speaker 3: going to be a threat to their survival needs to 161 00:08:58,160 --> 00:09:02,160 Speaker 3: be removed. And because it's all there's a level of 162 00:09:02,280 --> 00:09:04,880 Speaker 3: performance with all of it, it doesn't feel as real 163 00:09:05,080 --> 00:09:06,840 Speaker 3: as it would for other people. 164 00:09:07,000 --> 00:09:09,440 Speaker 1: Right, and then the fame as well. 165 00:09:09,480 --> 00:09:12,240 Speaker 2: The fame has to have some major impact, right because 166 00:09:13,080 --> 00:09:16,040 Speaker 2: do you think the high profile athletes in particular, because 167 00:09:16,080 --> 00:09:18,760 Speaker 2: it's also tied to the real true performance, so they 168 00:09:18,800 --> 00:09:22,640 Speaker 2: lose normal social boundaries and consequences. 169 00:09:21,800 --> 00:09:25,280 Speaker 3: Because there's a godlike quality. Because if you think about dominance, 170 00:09:25,840 --> 00:09:28,520 Speaker 3: when you're dominating on the field, if you're doinan when 171 00:09:28,520 --> 00:09:30,520 Speaker 3: people if they do murder and then they want to 172 00:09:30,600 --> 00:09:35,839 Speaker 3: murder again, they experience a high from the dominance of 173 00:09:35,920 --> 00:09:39,600 Speaker 3: that because it feels like they are godlike. So whatever, 174 00:09:39,679 --> 00:09:43,840 Speaker 3: there feels like this level of omnipotence, which is the 175 00:09:43,840 --> 00:09:46,079 Speaker 3: feeling of being all powerful like God. It's like the 176 00:09:46,120 --> 00:09:51,600 Speaker 3: sense of I am God. And if you're God, and 177 00:09:51,679 --> 00:09:54,480 Speaker 3: if the world is treating you like God, there are 178 00:09:54,520 --> 00:09:57,400 Speaker 3: no rules. The rules don't apply to you. And then 179 00:09:57,440 --> 00:09:59,840 Speaker 3: there's a sense of whatever I want, I can take 180 00:10:00,440 --> 00:10:03,480 Speaker 3: and I can get away with anything, and and it's 181 00:10:03,600 --> 00:10:05,640 Speaker 3: and you know, and and I'm sure he got away 182 00:10:05,679 --> 00:10:08,920 Speaker 3: with some things we will never know about because over 183 00:10:08,960 --> 00:10:12,079 Speaker 3: time you just you just realize, yeah, the rules don't apply. 184 00:10:12,200 --> 00:10:13,720 Speaker 3: And for a long time that does work. 185 00:10:14,080 --> 00:10:18,320 Speaker 2: And then how much of an impact does the homosexuality 186 00:10:18,320 --> 00:10:21,760 Speaker 2: and having to hide that on top of it's quite 187 00:10:21,800 --> 00:10:22,199 Speaker 2: a soup? 188 00:10:22,920 --> 00:10:26,400 Speaker 3: Well, yeah, exactly, it's it's everything. So there's so he, 189 00:10:26,600 --> 00:10:29,320 Speaker 3: according to his brother in the book, started getting sexually 190 00:10:29,360 --> 00:10:33,960 Speaker 3: abused regularly at the age of seven, I think around 191 00:10:34,240 --> 00:10:38,120 Speaker 3: around seven by a babysitter. They were dropped off at 192 00:10:38,120 --> 00:10:40,679 Speaker 3: the home to where they were to be babysat and 193 00:10:41,320 --> 00:10:43,800 Speaker 3: uh and this was happening regularly, so he was of 194 00:10:43,800 --> 00:10:48,960 Speaker 3: course carrying this secret. And then and just and and 195 00:10:49,000 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 3: this is the thing with kids, like even with sexual abuse, 196 00:10:52,559 --> 00:10:55,320 Speaker 3: there's this it's a deep, dark secret you don't tell parents. 197 00:10:55,320 --> 00:10:58,280 Speaker 3: And boy boys, by the way, boys way under report. 198 00:10:58,440 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 2: In the series, they said it was is an uncle 199 00:11:01,520 --> 00:11:02,839 Speaker 2: and not a babysitter. 200 00:11:03,200 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 3: But yeah, well in the book that his brother wrote, 201 00:11:05,520 --> 00:11:07,960 Speaker 3: the brother said it was a babysitter. So I'm not 202 00:11:08,040 --> 00:11:10,840 Speaker 3: really sure who it was, but it wouldn't surprise me 203 00:11:10,920 --> 00:11:15,040 Speaker 3: if it was coming Unfortunately from different directions, because there 204 00:11:15,080 --> 00:11:18,839 Speaker 3: is also some evidence from some people who've talked about 205 00:11:18,880 --> 00:11:22,520 Speaker 3: and gone on records said that Aaron's father was also 206 00:11:22,760 --> 00:11:25,200 Speaker 3: a victim of childhood sexual abuse. So like these things 207 00:11:25,240 --> 00:11:28,640 Speaker 3: sometimes just keep getting passed down. Unfortunately. The thing is 208 00:11:28,720 --> 00:11:31,960 Speaker 3: with boys is they way under report, and we don't 209 00:11:31,960 --> 00:11:33,600 Speaker 3: talk about that. If you look at the statistics, it 210 00:11:33,600 --> 00:11:36,760 Speaker 3: looks like girls are getting targeted way more, but girls 211 00:11:37,120 --> 00:11:41,040 Speaker 3: are way more open eventually about talking about it, whereas 212 00:11:41,040 --> 00:11:44,280 Speaker 3: boys there's so much shame because then if you think 213 00:11:44,320 --> 00:11:47,480 Speaker 3: about ones that then do realize they're gay, and then 214 00:11:47,520 --> 00:11:49,719 Speaker 3: it's like just what it means in society. It's all 215 00:11:49,760 --> 00:11:51,760 Speaker 3: of it. It's just what is manhood. So it's all 216 00:11:52,320 --> 00:11:55,000 Speaker 3: you know. So he had to repress, repress, repress, and 217 00:11:55,000 --> 00:11:58,479 Speaker 3: not talk about a lot of these things because Yeah, predators, 218 00:11:58,480 --> 00:12:01,520 Speaker 3: by the way, often say they don't go after girls 219 00:12:01,520 --> 00:12:04,560 Speaker 3: because girls talk too much. So that's why they go 220 00:12:04,600 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 3: after boys. Wow, because boys do not report it as 221 00:12:08,960 --> 00:12:11,680 Speaker 3: much as it happened. So anyway, but yeah, so on 222 00:12:11,760 --> 00:12:14,960 Speaker 3: top of like the traumas of that, and the other 223 00:12:15,040 --> 00:12:18,040 Speaker 3: thing is is what's confusing to a child if they 224 00:12:18,040 --> 00:12:21,800 Speaker 3: are being targeted, is that there's there's an element to 225 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:25,360 Speaker 3: sexual abuse that sometimes feels good, and then if you 226 00:12:25,520 --> 00:12:29,160 Speaker 3: are getting pleasure from that, then you start to blame yourself, 227 00:12:29,160 --> 00:12:31,160 Speaker 3: like then I'm asking for this and maybe you know, 228 00:12:31,280 --> 00:12:33,120 Speaker 3: so then you just start blaming yourself. And then of 229 00:12:33,160 --> 00:12:36,360 Speaker 3: course the predator can often they'll say things like, well 230 00:12:36,480 --> 00:12:39,560 Speaker 3: you you seduced me. They'll they'll turn it around, they're 231 00:12:39,640 --> 00:12:41,480 Speaker 3: very good, and then you think, oh, yeah, I guess 232 00:12:41,520 --> 00:12:44,480 Speaker 3: maybe I did seduce. And so on top of that 233 00:12:44,600 --> 00:12:46,600 Speaker 3: deep dark secret, so where he's wetting the bed and 234 00:12:46,640 --> 00:12:48,720 Speaker 3: his father's getting angry at him about whitting the bed 235 00:12:48,920 --> 00:12:51,360 Speaker 3: and there's all these secrets going on, and then having 236 00:12:51,360 --> 00:12:54,000 Speaker 3: this secret later on of being gay and what that 237 00:12:54,040 --> 00:12:56,240 Speaker 3: means in football culture, what that means to be a man, 238 00:12:56,280 --> 00:12:59,199 Speaker 3: and his father calling him and all these things piling 239 00:12:59,240 --> 00:13:02,160 Speaker 3: and piling and pile like I mean absolutely, And then 240 00:13:02,200 --> 00:13:05,240 Speaker 3: of course, and I don't know if in this, in this, 241 00:13:05,440 --> 00:13:08,640 Speaker 3: in this uh series, if they looked at how he 242 00:13:08,679 --> 00:13:11,600 Speaker 3: would get drunk and openly flirt with male bartenders, and 243 00:13:11,640 --> 00:13:13,800 Speaker 3: that his friend, a friend of his would say, Aaron, 244 00:13:13,800 --> 00:13:15,640 Speaker 3: you can't do this here. This is Hollywood. You're gonna 245 00:13:15,640 --> 00:13:17,000 Speaker 3: be on TMZ in two days. 246 00:13:17,600 --> 00:13:19,840 Speaker 1: Oh, So they don't do that as much. 247 00:13:19,880 --> 00:13:23,480 Speaker 2: There are a couple of moments where he they have 248 00:13:23,600 --> 00:13:25,199 Speaker 2: it more that it's he's hiding it. 249 00:13:25,480 --> 00:13:25,960 Speaker 1: Certainly. 250 00:13:26,320 --> 00:13:29,520 Speaker 2: There are a couple of moments where he does something 251 00:13:29,640 --> 00:13:32,000 Speaker 2: a little demonstrative. 252 00:13:32,679 --> 00:13:36,040 Speaker 1: And it's like, you know, sort of brushed over a 253 00:13:36,120 --> 00:13:36,959 Speaker 1: little bit, but. 254 00:13:36,960 --> 00:13:41,880 Speaker 2: They really do show, you know, that he had a 255 00:13:42,040 --> 00:13:46,480 Speaker 2: somewhat meaningful relationship with with another boy in high school 256 00:13:46,480 --> 00:13:48,520 Speaker 2: when they were growing up, and that thing. 257 00:13:48,400 --> 00:13:52,360 Speaker 1: Of it could be you know, it's heartbreaking because. 258 00:13:52,080 --> 00:13:54,560 Speaker 2: You think, like this is is a there's a true 259 00:13:54,600 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 2: connection that these two young boys had, both in a 260 00:13:58,480 --> 00:14:01,720 Speaker 2: in a physical way, but in an emotional way. And 261 00:14:02,679 --> 00:14:06,120 Speaker 2: it's just very clear that that was just unacceptable, like 262 00:14:06,240 --> 00:14:10,840 Speaker 2: unimaginable for him, like the judgment that he had on himself. 263 00:14:10,960 --> 00:14:13,160 Speaker 3: That's right, and some people say they really did they 264 00:14:13,160 --> 00:14:15,199 Speaker 3: fell in love. I mean that's sort of he fell 265 00:14:15,240 --> 00:14:17,040 Speaker 3: in love with this guy. I mean like that it 266 00:14:17,120 --> 00:14:19,960 Speaker 3: was there and that yeah, that in another world. I'm 267 00:14:20,000 --> 00:14:22,120 Speaker 3: sure there are moments of like, in another world we 268 00:14:22,160 --> 00:14:25,440 Speaker 3: could be together, you know, yeah, you know, but unfortunately 269 00:14:25,840 --> 00:14:29,840 Speaker 3: not this world, and that's devastating. So each moment for 270 00:14:29,960 --> 00:14:33,240 Speaker 3: real connection and then even like you know, and I'm 271 00:14:33,280 --> 00:14:36,840 Speaker 3: sure he loved his fancee, but like there's also probably 272 00:14:37,000 --> 00:14:39,800 Speaker 3: a level of performance of like how I have to 273 00:14:39,840 --> 00:14:43,360 Speaker 3: be in that relationship like whatever that was. Like, I mean, 274 00:14:43,360 --> 00:14:46,160 Speaker 3: of course he loved her. I know they were close 275 00:14:46,200 --> 00:14:49,280 Speaker 3: friends and of course, uh, you know, and I'm not 276 00:14:49,320 --> 00:14:51,480 Speaker 3: sure how in love with I mean, I know that 277 00:14:51,520 --> 00:14:55,000 Speaker 3: there was a deep love, and it's just the whole 278 00:14:55,040 --> 00:14:58,200 Speaker 3: thing is just one tragic thing after another. 279 00:15:12,800 --> 00:15:15,280 Speaker 2: I feel like this show does a really nice job 280 00:15:15,320 --> 00:15:18,920 Speaker 2: of that too, of kind of showing some of the 281 00:15:18,960 --> 00:15:24,040 Speaker 2: complexity of their relationship and then her needing to stay 282 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,440 Speaker 2: by his side, which you can imagine as your partner 283 00:15:28,600 --> 00:15:31,520 Speaker 2: and your friend and the father of your child, but 284 00:15:31,560 --> 00:15:35,680 Speaker 2: then also her anger like it's it is. 285 00:15:35,600 --> 00:15:38,120 Speaker 1: It's just one tragic thing after another. 286 00:15:38,840 --> 00:15:40,920 Speaker 3: And then of course I mean, and this is where 287 00:15:41,040 --> 00:15:43,280 Speaker 3: and I don't know what they did in this series, 288 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:48,160 Speaker 3: but like, so Aarin two nights before Odin is killed, 289 00:15:48,240 --> 00:15:51,040 Speaker 3: he spends the evening with Odin, like intel. They're together 290 00:15:51,080 --> 00:15:53,600 Speaker 3: till eleven am the next day, and when Aaron gets home, 291 00:15:53,920 --> 00:15:57,360 Speaker 3: he finds his mom and fiance waiting for brunch, and 292 00:15:57,360 --> 00:15:59,680 Speaker 3: they watch as Aaron hands Odin the keys to the 293 00:15:59,720 --> 00:16:03,040 Speaker 3: rental car and reminding him to return it. Aaron's drunk 294 00:16:03,080 --> 00:16:05,000 Speaker 3: as a skunk and wearing different clothes than the ones 295 00:16:05,040 --> 00:16:08,080 Speaker 3: he had on the night before. Two nights later, Aaron 296 00:16:08,120 --> 00:16:10,640 Speaker 3: picks Odin up again, and within hours he shot dead. 297 00:16:10,720 --> 00:16:14,240 Speaker 3: So the question is like, like there are three, like 298 00:16:14,360 --> 00:16:16,520 Speaker 3: why did Aaron kill Odin? Because I think this is 299 00:16:16,560 --> 00:16:19,000 Speaker 3: the question on so many people's mind. Is it because 300 00:16:19,080 --> 00:16:22,560 Speaker 3: maybe there was something where Aaron may have even you know, 301 00:16:22,720 --> 00:16:25,560 Speaker 3: came out to him, or something in a panic of 302 00:16:25,600 --> 00:16:28,720 Speaker 3: shame and fear of exposure killed him. Or did Odin 303 00:16:28,880 --> 00:16:31,440 Speaker 3: know something about Aaron's criminal activities that put him at 304 00:16:31,520 --> 00:16:34,560 Speaker 3: risk or obviously did his paranoid to lose and finally 305 00:16:34,600 --> 00:16:36,800 Speaker 3: just get the best of him. I mean, prosecutors are 306 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:40,720 Speaker 3: argue that Hernandez believe that Lloyd had either talked too much, 307 00:16:41,080 --> 00:16:43,720 Speaker 3: knew too much, or could no longer be trusted. But 308 00:16:43,760 --> 00:16:46,160 Speaker 3: it's like because he said something like you can't trust 309 00:16:46,200 --> 00:16:49,080 Speaker 3: anyone anymore, but it's trust him with what, like is 310 00:16:49,080 --> 00:16:51,840 Speaker 3: it something that like he knew about, for example, potentral 311 00:16:51,880 --> 00:16:54,960 Speaker 3: Boston murders, Like what are we talking about here? Like that? 312 00:16:54,960 --> 00:16:57,120 Speaker 2: That's kind of how they cover it in the in 313 00:16:57,320 --> 00:17:02,880 Speaker 2: the series, that it's certainly a little blurry for him, 314 00:17:03,000 --> 00:17:07,040 Speaker 2: but that he's insinuating that Odin knows something about Boston, 315 00:17:07,200 --> 00:17:11,159 Speaker 2: about the other murders, and they don't really suggest that 316 00:17:11,240 --> 00:17:15,200 Speaker 2: it could be anything about his sexuality, but certainly more 317 00:17:15,280 --> 00:17:18,159 Speaker 2: that he could have said something and doesn't remember that 318 00:17:18,200 --> 00:17:21,760 Speaker 2: he told him and then spirals into like the paranoia 319 00:17:21,920 --> 00:17:25,240 Speaker 2: about it. So the relationship that Aaron had with his 320 00:17:25,359 --> 00:17:29,080 Speaker 2: cousin Tanya Singleton, she died from cancer in twenty fifteen 321 00:17:29,720 --> 00:17:32,320 Speaker 2: in the show, and I think from what I've read 322 00:17:32,359 --> 00:17:34,919 Speaker 2: this is real in life that it's portrayed as one 323 00:17:34,920 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 2: of the few places where Aarin seemed to be emotionally exposed. 324 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:46,160 Speaker 2: So do violent offenders sometimes still maintain deeply meaningful relationships emotional. 325 00:17:45,880 --> 00:17:50,000 Speaker 3: Absolutely, I mean again, even talking about like serial killers, 326 00:17:50,040 --> 00:17:52,840 Speaker 3: they can absolutely love their wives and their children, and 327 00:17:52,880 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 3: they do love them. They know how to love. They 328 00:17:54,960 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 3: just compartmentalize and the other people who they kill, they're 329 00:17:57,920 --> 00:18:01,399 Speaker 3: in a different section. They're as for whatever reason, like 330 00:18:01,440 --> 00:18:06,680 Speaker 3: they just become the target of whatever. So absolutely, I mean, Tanya, 331 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:11,399 Speaker 3: that whole story is fascinating, probably because you know that, 332 00:18:11,480 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 3: like he finds out that is like, so on top 333 00:18:13,920 --> 00:18:17,800 Speaker 3: of his father dying at sixteen, father dies suddenly, then 334 00:18:17,840 --> 00:18:20,400 Speaker 3: it comes to life that Aaron's mom has been secretly 335 00:18:20,520 --> 00:18:23,800 Speaker 3: having sex with his cousin, Tanya's husband, and then they 336 00:18:23,840 --> 00:18:26,120 Speaker 3: become a couple. That's a huge scandal. So Aerin at 337 00:18:26,119 --> 00:18:29,280 Speaker 3: that moment hates his mother. He moves in with Tanya, 338 00:18:29,720 --> 00:18:32,119 Speaker 3: and so then of course she has friends that have 339 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:34,160 Speaker 3: criminal records, and that's where he starts smoking a lot 340 00:18:34,160 --> 00:18:37,440 Speaker 3: of weed. But she's the only one at that point 341 00:18:37,680 --> 00:18:40,760 Speaker 3: that knows his secrets. He comes out to her and 342 00:18:40,800 --> 00:18:43,880 Speaker 3: he tells her she's the only person at that time 343 00:18:43,960 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 3: he felt safe with her, and he told her he's gay, 344 00:18:46,920 --> 00:18:48,920 Speaker 3: and she took it to the grave. She didn't tell anybody. 345 00:18:49,040 --> 00:18:51,160 Speaker 3: She was very loyal. Wow. 346 00:18:51,320 --> 00:18:54,600 Speaker 2: So they kind of alludes to that that she may 347 00:18:54,640 --> 00:18:58,600 Speaker 2: they may have been transparent, but they don't outwardly say 348 00:18:58,600 --> 00:18:59,560 Speaker 2: it in this series. 349 00:19:00,359 --> 00:19:02,399 Speaker 3: Yeah, she is the only one that knew his secret 350 00:19:02,480 --> 00:19:05,000 Speaker 3: and she took it to the grave because obviously he 351 00:19:05,040 --> 00:19:07,119 Speaker 3: didn't come out about being gay till he was in prison, 352 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:11,239 Speaker 3: and he tells his mother, but he you know, but 353 00:19:11,320 --> 00:19:15,639 Speaker 3: the whole it's it's very u But yeah, Tanya was 354 00:19:16,280 --> 00:19:19,679 Speaker 3: one of his most important people, like his true confidant. 355 00:19:20,119 --> 00:19:23,359 Speaker 3: And she really is like a safety blanket, the only 356 00:19:23,440 --> 00:19:24,560 Speaker 3: place to feel safe. 357 00:19:25,440 --> 00:19:29,479 Speaker 2: And and you know, so I read in the Boston 358 00:19:29,520 --> 00:19:32,320 Speaker 2: Globe according to this article that Aaron once said to 359 00:19:32,359 --> 00:19:35,960 Speaker 2: Tanya during a jail house visit, I'm just one empty 360 00:19:36,040 --> 00:19:39,840 Speaker 2: person and I've been like that for so long. So 361 00:19:40,240 --> 00:19:44,720 Speaker 2: when someone describes themselves that way, is that clinically meaningful? 362 00:19:46,400 --> 00:19:49,439 Speaker 3: It can be. I mean, you know, people love to 363 00:19:49,600 --> 00:19:54,159 Speaker 3: be armchair psychologists when it comes through things. 364 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:54,680 Speaker 1: Not me, not me, not you. 365 00:19:54,720 --> 00:20:00,720 Speaker 2: No, I'm kidding, definitely, definitely, but just when it comes 366 00:20:00,760 --> 00:20:03,280 Speaker 2: to personality disorders and it drives me bananas. 367 00:20:03,560 --> 00:20:05,720 Speaker 3: Right now, I'm writing a book that's going to be 368 00:20:05,760 --> 00:20:08,560 Speaker 3: coming outfall of twenty twenty seven called Inventing the Psychopath 369 00:20:08,840 --> 00:20:11,920 Speaker 3: where I not just examine how we basically invented psychopathy 370 00:20:11,920 --> 00:20:14,000 Speaker 3: as a concept, but then on top of that, when 371 00:20:14,040 --> 00:20:19,000 Speaker 3: we talk about personality disorders like borderline and narcissistic personality 372 00:20:19,040 --> 00:20:22,840 Speaker 3: and anti social, these these are you know, when people Again, 373 00:20:22,880 --> 00:20:25,879 Speaker 3: these are labels that we slap onto people. And one 374 00:20:25,920 --> 00:20:29,720 Speaker 3: of the things when it comes to borderline personality disorder, 375 00:20:30,040 --> 00:20:32,840 Speaker 3: and it's true, clinically you can say that that is 376 00:20:32,880 --> 00:20:35,840 Speaker 3: the personality disorder that somebody has. If they have chronic 377 00:20:35,880 --> 00:20:39,600 Speaker 3: feelings of emptiness, we know that that is definitely something 378 00:20:39,600 --> 00:20:43,199 Speaker 3: clinically that shows up. But and so yeah, so we 379 00:20:43,200 --> 00:20:44,959 Speaker 3: can look at the symptoms and we can look at 380 00:20:44,960 --> 00:20:47,520 Speaker 3: the behaviors, and I have no issues with that. My 381 00:20:47,680 --> 00:20:52,000 Speaker 3: issue is that things like the label of borderline or narcissistic, 382 00:20:52,800 --> 00:20:56,439 Speaker 3: they get thrown around so much that immediately then we 383 00:20:56,520 --> 00:20:59,480 Speaker 3: label the person that we stop treating them like human beings. 384 00:20:59,560 --> 00:21:02,119 Speaker 3: That's what you are, and that's what matter. You're a borderliner, 385 00:21:02,200 --> 00:21:04,639 Speaker 3: You're a narcissist. And these are things like we know, 386 00:21:04,800 --> 00:21:09,080 Speaker 3: with all personality disorders, just like with this concept of psychopathy, 387 00:21:09,119 --> 00:21:13,600 Speaker 3: which is not an official diagnosis, it's just like a theory. Basically, 388 00:21:13,800 --> 00:21:17,160 Speaker 3: these things all come from trauma. They all come from trauma. 389 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,680 Speaker 3: And it's not like a narcissist really likes themselves. They 390 00:21:20,720 --> 00:21:23,879 Speaker 3: tend to hate themselves, and so it's a matter across 391 00:21:23,880 --> 00:21:25,760 Speaker 3: the board they do. They don't like to be in 392 00:21:25,800 --> 00:21:28,040 Speaker 3: their own skin. So that's why they're so defended and 393 00:21:28,040 --> 00:21:30,840 Speaker 3: they're always playing the role. Getting back to the idea 394 00:21:30,880 --> 00:21:34,479 Speaker 3: of the performance, right, it's all defense, defense, defense, and 395 00:21:34,520 --> 00:21:38,879 Speaker 3: so if you suffer enough trauma, you're gonna have different defenses. 396 00:21:38,960 --> 00:21:42,280 Speaker 3: And yes, males are more likely to develop the the 397 00:21:42,320 --> 00:21:46,080 Speaker 3: defense of narcissistic personality disorder, and females are more likely 398 00:21:46,119 --> 00:21:49,520 Speaker 3: to develop the defense of borderline personality or But now, 399 00:21:49,560 --> 00:21:51,919 Speaker 3: because these terms have been sullied so much, actually we 400 00:21:51,960 --> 00:21:55,000 Speaker 3: need to get different terms from them. They're just again 401 00:21:55,119 --> 00:21:57,200 Speaker 3: lack of empathy the minute you throw out those terms. 402 00:21:57,240 --> 00:22:01,160 Speaker 3: So but yes, clinically that chronic those feelings of appionist 403 00:22:01,280 --> 00:22:03,560 Speaker 3: is it can be linked with the personality sort of 404 00:22:03,560 --> 00:22:06,840 Speaker 3: borderline personality sort which is like something of being split. 405 00:22:21,400 --> 00:22:24,640 Speaker 2: Let's talk a little bit about the media influence here. 406 00:22:26,400 --> 00:22:31,560 Speaker 2: So Aaron goes back to court a trial for the 407 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,960 Speaker 2: murder of the two people in the car in Boston, 408 00:22:35,160 --> 00:22:38,000 Speaker 2: and he is found not guilty of that. 409 00:22:38,640 --> 00:22:42,280 Speaker 1: Then two days later, these talk show. 410 00:22:42,040 --> 00:22:44,840 Speaker 2: Hosts which I don't even want to say who they are, 411 00:22:45,200 --> 00:22:47,920 Speaker 2: have this conversation and they have a guest on who 412 00:22:48,000 --> 00:22:50,919 Speaker 2: Basically they start to inflame this whole thing and out 413 00:22:51,320 --> 00:22:55,280 Speaker 2: Aaron Hernandez as being gay, and then is it the 414 00:22:55,359 --> 00:23:00,520 Speaker 2: following day or two days later, he commits suicide in jail. 415 00:23:01,280 --> 00:23:05,720 Speaker 2: So how much responsibility does the media hold for these 416 00:23:05,760 --> 00:23:08,280 Speaker 2: sorts of things in your opinion? 417 00:23:09,520 --> 00:23:13,199 Speaker 3: I mean it's tough because unfortunately, when you have a 418 00:23:13,240 --> 00:23:17,520 Speaker 3: public personality, I mean, when you're public facing and this 419 00:23:17,600 --> 00:23:20,400 Speaker 3: is your job and now you're you're famous like Aaron 420 00:23:20,400 --> 00:23:24,800 Speaker 3: Hernandez or whatever, people do feel like they have the 421 00:23:24,880 --> 00:23:28,119 Speaker 3: rights to talk publicly about you in every single way. 422 00:23:28,160 --> 00:23:30,159 Speaker 3: I mean, the media does it all the time. Whatever sells, 423 00:23:30,240 --> 00:23:33,879 Speaker 3: let's get that salacious story, like, let's get it, you know, 424 00:23:34,040 --> 00:23:37,240 Speaker 3: happening and so people. But as far as responsibility, I 425 00:23:37,280 --> 00:23:41,520 Speaker 3: think it's I am not a fan with how the 426 00:23:41,600 --> 00:23:44,919 Speaker 3: media handles a lot of things. I don't think we 427 00:23:44,960 --> 00:23:48,840 Speaker 3: should be advertising the names of mass shooters because it's 428 00:23:48,880 --> 00:23:52,240 Speaker 3: just basically a how to guide to become famous, and 429 00:23:52,280 --> 00:23:55,080 Speaker 3: so they're different things. So yes, I think that when 430 00:23:55,160 --> 00:23:58,520 Speaker 3: it comes you know, Aaron him taking his own life, 431 00:23:59,800 --> 00:24:04,960 Speaker 3: it could I mean obviously potentially had in part to 432 00:24:05,040 --> 00:24:08,679 Speaker 3: do with that, but I think it was again a 433 00:24:08,720 --> 00:24:11,199 Speaker 3: whole bunch of things that just piled. But yes, that 434 00:24:11,280 --> 00:24:13,680 Speaker 3: might have been the straw that broke the camel's back. 435 00:24:13,760 --> 00:24:15,920 Speaker 3: We just don't know exactly what it was. But yes, 436 00:24:15,960 --> 00:24:19,560 Speaker 3: I think we need to be we need to be 437 00:24:19,680 --> 00:24:22,520 Speaker 3: a lot more cognizant and kind when it comes to 438 00:24:23,800 --> 00:24:26,359 Speaker 3: the people we talk about, because these are human beings, 439 00:24:26,359 --> 00:24:28,760 Speaker 3: and it's so easy to look at somebody once they're 440 00:24:28,800 --> 00:24:33,439 Speaker 3: an idea, once they're a character in the like people 441 00:24:33,480 --> 00:24:36,760 Speaker 3: look at like that they're a character, that they're not 442 00:24:36,800 --> 00:24:38,879 Speaker 3: a real person. So then they treat them that way, 443 00:24:39,160 --> 00:24:41,040 Speaker 3: and it's like that this is a human being who 444 00:24:41,080 --> 00:24:44,520 Speaker 3: has feelings and it's just doing their best. We're all 445 00:24:44,600 --> 00:24:45,680 Speaker 3: just doing our best. 446 00:24:45,840 --> 00:24:47,480 Speaker 1: We you know, we really are. 447 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,280 Speaker 3: And if we can think about humans that way, then 448 00:24:50,320 --> 00:24:52,800 Speaker 3: again maybe we can have more compassion for them, because 449 00:24:53,280 --> 00:24:55,760 Speaker 3: you know, most humans want to have a good life 450 00:24:55,800 --> 00:24:58,840 Speaker 3: and have connection with other human beings, and it is 451 00:24:59,080 --> 00:25:01,879 Speaker 3: it's the lack of conne that causes either suicide or 452 00:25:01,880 --> 00:25:03,960 Speaker 3: homicide period across the board. 453 00:25:04,200 --> 00:25:04,960 Speaker 1: Right right. 454 00:25:05,359 --> 00:25:11,600 Speaker 2: And it's such a complex relationship between fame and the 455 00:25:11,640 --> 00:25:16,360 Speaker 2: public and how we all seem to want that and them, 456 00:25:16,400 --> 00:25:18,320 Speaker 2: and then you want to demonize the people who have 457 00:25:18,400 --> 00:25:20,800 Speaker 2: it because you don't have it, like it's so and 458 00:25:20,840 --> 00:25:23,840 Speaker 2: it's all in layer. I mean, that's a whole other show. 459 00:25:23,880 --> 00:25:28,320 Speaker 2: I can talk about that, but it's very complicated. And 460 00:25:28,520 --> 00:25:31,960 Speaker 2: people often do look at people in the public eye 461 00:25:32,000 --> 00:25:35,760 Speaker 2: and assume they have every opportunity, every resource, so they 462 00:25:35,800 --> 00:25:38,760 Speaker 2: should they're held to a different standard. And I. 463 00:25:40,320 --> 00:25:42,520 Speaker 1: Agree with that to a certain degree. 464 00:25:42,560 --> 00:25:45,480 Speaker 2: Like, yes, you if you've achieved a certain amount of 465 00:25:45,480 --> 00:25:48,480 Speaker 2: success and fame such that you know, people know who 466 00:25:48,480 --> 00:25:50,320 Speaker 2: you are and they appreciate what you do. 467 00:25:50,880 --> 00:25:54,080 Speaker 1: Then I think there is a you. 468 00:25:56,320 --> 00:26:00,040 Speaker 2: Need to sort of reflect being a good person and 469 00:26:00,119 --> 00:26:01,119 Speaker 2: all that sort of stuff. 470 00:26:01,320 --> 00:26:05,520 Speaker 3: Once you have a certain something, Yes, the public feels 471 00:26:05,560 --> 00:26:07,879 Speaker 3: like they have more access to you, and yes, there 472 00:26:07,880 --> 00:26:11,720 Speaker 3: are certain ways that you do have maybe more responsibility 473 00:26:11,800 --> 00:26:15,119 Speaker 3: to ideally because you also the people who have a 474 00:26:15,119 --> 00:26:17,200 Speaker 3: lot of young people looking up to them, you got 475 00:26:17,240 --> 00:26:20,359 Speaker 3: to think about, like, Okay, what's your responsibility to those 476 00:26:20,480 --> 00:26:22,760 Speaker 3: young people and what kind of role model do you 477 00:26:22,800 --> 00:26:25,720 Speaker 3: want to be because you're giving them hope about what 478 00:26:25,840 --> 00:26:27,719 Speaker 3: the future is going to be, and in some ways, 479 00:26:27,880 --> 00:26:30,439 Speaker 3: I do think that carries a lot of responsibility. So 480 00:26:30,800 --> 00:26:33,800 Speaker 3: in each way, everyone has their own roles. And then 481 00:26:34,000 --> 00:26:36,920 Speaker 3: you know, of course, if you're playing the role of 482 00:26:37,240 --> 00:26:41,960 Speaker 3: you know, someone who's kind of like dark and then yeah, 483 00:26:42,000 --> 00:26:44,040 Speaker 3: then you can play that role and you can continue. 484 00:26:44,040 --> 00:26:46,280 Speaker 3: But like if you're playing the role of kind of 485 00:26:46,359 --> 00:26:49,120 Speaker 3: like the all American something or like I mean, something 486 00:26:49,160 --> 00:26:52,560 Speaker 3: like Taylor Swift for example, like I think has to 487 00:26:52,880 --> 00:26:55,920 Speaker 3: on some level carry herself in a certain way because 488 00:26:55,960 --> 00:26:59,240 Speaker 3: she has a lot of responsibility for these young people 489 00:26:59,280 --> 00:27:01,240 Speaker 3: that are looking up or her like they want to 490 00:27:01,240 --> 00:27:03,600 Speaker 3: be her. And so it's just so it's tricky. Obviously 491 00:27:03,600 --> 00:27:05,840 Speaker 3: it's straight. There's no rule book, right, but you just 492 00:27:06,040 --> 00:27:08,680 Speaker 3: on some level you need to know where your boundaries 493 00:27:08,720 --> 00:27:12,119 Speaker 3: are and who you're being and what your reason for 494 00:27:12,160 --> 00:27:14,680 Speaker 3: being that because ideally, if you want to make the 495 00:27:14,680 --> 00:27:17,600 Speaker 3: world a better place, then you know, make choices in 496 00:27:17,600 --> 00:27:18,480 Speaker 3: that direction. 497 00:27:18,520 --> 00:27:22,800 Speaker 2: Right, Okay, does one more or maybe two things about 498 00:27:23,960 --> 00:27:24,800 Speaker 2: Aaron Hernandez. 499 00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:28,360 Speaker 1: So looking back, do you think that intervention for him. 500 00:27:28,520 --> 00:27:31,640 Speaker 2: Was realistically possible at any point in time? 501 00:27:32,960 --> 00:27:36,360 Speaker 3: Yeah, it would have been. I mean the thing is okay, 502 00:27:36,480 --> 00:27:40,800 Speaker 3: so something that again going back to this is where 503 00:27:40,800 --> 00:27:44,560 Speaker 3: it gets tricky because he doesn't even realize. You know, 504 00:27:44,600 --> 00:27:47,040 Speaker 3: it's some like he doesn't realize he is suffering from 505 00:27:47,119 --> 00:27:50,000 Speaker 3: serious brain damage. Just to go through the list, I 506 00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:51,920 Speaker 3: know I kind of mentioned, but it's at age seven, 507 00:27:52,240 --> 00:27:55,560 Speaker 3: he gets multiple concussions from tackle football. At eight, hammer 508 00:27:55,600 --> 00:27:58,320 Speaker 3: strikes him on the head so hard that blood pours 509 00:27:58,359 --> 00:28:01,800 Speaker 3: out of his nose and ears, knocking him unconscious. But 510 00:28:01,840 --> 00:28:03,879 Speaker 3: of course the high school football field is when the 511 00:28:04,040 --> 00:28:07,639 Speaker 3: damage really accelerates. And of course then it's later revealed 512 00:28:07,640 --> 00:28:10,760 Speaker 3: that Aaron has the most extreme case of chronic traumatic 513 00:28:10,800 --> 00:28:14,840 Speaker 3: encephalopathy ever documented in someone his age. His brain is 514 00:28:14,920 --> 00:28:18,080 Speaker 3: deteriorating at an alarming rate. So the lesions that were 515 00:28:18,119 --> 00:28:23,080 Speaker 3: mentioned on amigdala and frontal lobe, which are areas responsible 516 00:28:23,160 --> 00:28:27,960 Speaker 3: for regulating aggression, impulsivity, poor moral judgment, paranoia, that kind 517 00:28:27,960 --> 00:28:30,119 Speaker 3: of stuff. Of course, he exhibits all of the above, 518 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:34,720 Speaker 3: So you know that, like, yes, his brain is already declining. 519 00:28:34,760 --> 00:28:38,560 Speaker 3: I mean, it's deteriorating. But then you've got the drugs 520 00:28:38,600 --> 00:28:40,680 Speaker 3: and the alcohol and those kinds of things. And I 521 00:28:40,760 --> 00:28:43,240 Speaker 3: just think, and I say this with across the board 522 00:28:43,240 --> 00:28:46,640 Speaker 3: with offenders, somebody like Jeffrey Dahmer, I believe that had 523 00:28:46,720 --> 00:28:49,320 Speaker 3: Jeffrey Dahmer not been an alcoholic, I don't think he 524 00:28:49,360 --> 00:28:53,160 Speaker 3: would have turned into a serial killer. Alcohol and drugs 525 00:28:53,360 --> 00:28:57,040 Speaker 3: when you have already got a compromised brain for whatever reasons, 526 00:28:57,080 --> 00:28:59,640 Speaker 3: because you were exposed to various things and you have 527 00:28:59,800 --> 00:29:02,240 Speaker 3: not process them properly. Now your brain is, like I 528 00:29:02,280 --> 00:29:05,200 Speaker 3: mentioned earlier, compromised. That is the number one thing. And 529 00:29:05,240 --> 00:29:07,440 Speaker 3: I tell people, if you're afraid you're going to be violent, 530 00:29:07,680 --> 00:29:10,280 Speaker 3: you need to stay away from substances because of the 531 00:29:10,320 --> 00:29:13,240 Speaker 3: substances that really tip you over the edge, because you'll 532 00:29:13,280 --> 00:29:16,280 Speaker 3: go into that dream state because the alcohol or the 533 00:29:16,360 --> 00:29:18,880 Speaker 3: drugs are hitting the areas that are already compromised in 534 00:29:18,920 --> 00:29:22,240 Speaker 3: your brain, and then you're just like you lose reality. 535 00:29:22,520 --> 00:29:25,360 Speaker 3: And that's not like the normal person who doesn't have 536 00:29:25,480 --> 00:29:29,640 Speaker 3: a damaged brain like that. So that's where yes, intervention, 537 00:29:29,760 --> 00:29:32,200 Speaker 3: had they got him sober somehow, I mean, again, what 538 00:29:32,240 --> 00:29:34,040 Speaker 3: do you do you can't lock him up. I mean, 539 00:29:34,080 --> 00:29:36,920 Speaker 3: they did lock him up, but like you can't before 540 00:29:36,960 --> 00:29:40,560 Speaker 3: he you know, murders. Ideally, Uh, there could have been 541 00:29:40,600 --> 00:29:43,960 Speaker 3: a major interventions where like they you know, they they 542 00:29:43,800 --> 00:29:45,600 Speaker 3: they you know, and then it's like how was he 543 00:29:45,640 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 3: still playing football? If he was you know, was he 544 00:29:47,760 --> 00:29:50,000 Speaker 3: being drug tested? Like I don't even know how any 545 00:29:50,040 --> 00:29:50,440 Speaker 3: of that. 546 00:29:50,360 --> 00:29:52,600 Speaker 1: Like these are all those things, you. 547 00:29:52,600 --> 00:29:55,440 Speaker 3: Know, these are the confusing things, like he's drug tested, 548 00:29:55,600 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 3: he needed to be you know, you know, put on 549 00:29:58,600 --> 00:29:58,960 Speaker 3: and all. 550 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:01,280 Speaker 2: That, and the nfl IS says that he never failed 551 00:30:01,280 --> 00:30:03,280 Speaker 2: a drug test over the course of his career. 552 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:06,800 Speaker 1: But like, okay, I believe that, like I believe, you know. 553 00:30:06,840 --> 00:30:11,080 Speaker 3: Yes, or he gave them different urine and they didn't 554 00:30:11,120 --> 00:30:13,440 Speaker 3: bother thinking that they should probably watch him pee in 555 00:30:13,520 --> 00:30:17,240 Speaker 3: a whatever like whatever whatever the test was, he may 556 00:30:17,280 --> 00:30:19,400 Speaker 3: have fooled them, but I don't know how. Like I 557 00:30:19,440 --> 00:30:21,120 Speaker 3: think he was on drugs, so I don't know how 558 00:30:21,160 --> 00:30:24,440 Speaker 3: he got you know, I think you've got to watch 559 00:30:24,520 --> 00:30:26,120 Speaker 3: him with them. So yes, there should have been intro 560 00:30:26,360 --> 00:30:28,680 Speaker 3: I think the number one thing in all of these cases, 561 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:32,120 Speaker 3: you know, needs to be number drugs now call need 562 00:30:32,160 --> 00:30:35,080 Speaker 3: to be removed in every way possible, and and I 563 00:30:35,160 --> 00:30:37,120 Speaker 3: know that that's hard because what they're the reason why 564 00:30:37,120 --> 00:30:39,200 Speaker 3: they're doing the drugs now calls because they're numbing the pain. 565 00:30:39,440 --> 00:30:40,080 Speaker 1: They don't want to fake. 566 00:30:40,160 --> 00:30:42,000 Speaker 3: So that's the tricky circular. 567 00:30:42,240 --> 00:30:43,880 Speaker 1: And then the machine has to keep going that, he 568 00:30:43,960 --> 00:30:46,520 Speaker 1: has to keep performing. So those spoaches are not going 569 00:30:46,560 --> 00:30:50,880 Speaker 1: to do that. The NFL is not going to do that, right, yes, exactly. Well, 570 00:30:51,160 --> 00:30:53,480 Speaker 1: we're just going to have you back like like every 571 00:30:53,480 --> 00:30:54,000 Speaker 1: week or. 572 00:30:53,960 --> 00:30:57,600 Speaker 2: Something because there are so many more things that I 573 00:30:57,640 --> 00:30:59,880 Speaker 2: would love to talk with you about. And I just 574 00:31:00,040 --> 00:31:02,640 Speaker 2: love this format because you get to really have a 575 00:31:02,760 --> 00:31:07,200 Speaker 2: longer conversation about things instead of you know, I really 576 00:31:07,440 --> 00:31:08,160 Speaker 2: appreciate that. 577 00:31:08,320 --> 00:31:12,040 Speaker 1: So thank you for all your time. Thank you tell 578 00:31:12,120 --> 00:31:12,840 Speaker 1: us your website. 579 00:31:12,920 --> 00:31:16,520 Speaker 3: Yeah, so my website is d r so doctor Rachel 580 00:31:16,760 --> 00:31:19,360 Speaker 3: r a c h e l Tolls t O l 581 00:31:19,440 --> 00:31:23,560 Speaker 3: e s dot com. So Dr Racheltolls dot com and 582 00:31:23,640 --> 00:31:25,920 Speaker 3: you can reach me there. You can also find me 583 00:31:26,000 --> 00:31:30,440 Speaker 3: on socials like Instagram. T O l z h a 584 00:31:30,640 --> 00:31:33,400 Speaker 3: u S Tolls House is my handle, but you can 585 00:31:33,440 --> 00:31:39,960 Speaker 3: just find me under doctor Rachel Toles as well. That's great, TikTok, Insta, Facebook, a. 586 00:31:39,880 --> 00:31:41,920 Speaker 1: Lot and we'll put all that in the notes. 587 00:31:42,120 --> 00:31:46,280 Speaker 2: And the American Sports Story Aaron Hernandez is streaming on Hulu, 588 00:31:46,320 --> 00:31:51,440 Speaker 2: which is the narrative series that we spoke about. Doctor Rachel, 589 00:31:51,560 --> 00:31:54,720 Speaker 2: You're just uh, this has been wonderful and I really 590 00:31:54,720 --> 00:31:55,640 Speaker 2: appreciate your time. 591 00:31:55,720 --> 00:31:58,440 Speaker 1: Thank you so much for doing much a pleasure. 592 00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 3: I've really enjoyed this conversation. Yes, I look forward to 593 00:32:00,960 --> 00:32:01,920 Speaker 3: having more in the future. 594 00:32:02,280 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: Perfect. Thank you so much. 595 00:32:03,680 --> 00:32:08,680 Speaker 3: Thank you, M. M.