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Speaker 1: Also media.

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Speaker 2: Hi everyone, it's James. We just wanted to let you

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Speaker 2: know that some new shit has come to light since

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Speaker 2: since we recorded this. Specifically, a former staff of was

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Speaker 2: A Your Kitchen who resigned, who was of Palestinian descent,

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Speaker 2: wrote an op ed, I guess in mund Weis, which

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Speaker 2: is a publication that covers Israel than Palestine and the

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Speaker 2: United States role there, and it's given us some more

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Speaker 2: information about what's the two kitchen that we didn't know

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Speaker 2: when we first recorded this, and so we are going

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Speaker 2: to address out at the end. So after the second

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Speaker 2: ad break, Charles will go Sherean and I will come

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Speaker 2: back and we're going to address some stuff that we

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Speaker 2: found in that op ed. We will also link it

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Speaker 2: in the description to this podcast.

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Speaker 3: Yes, it's a really good article. I recommend you guys

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Speaker 3: give it a full read. But yeah, we will be

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Speaker 3: talking all about it at the end, so please listen

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Speaker 3: to the whole episode. Hello, everybody, Welcome to it could

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Speaker 3: happen here today. I am joined by my illustrious colleague James.

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Speaker 4: Hi James, Hi, Serene.

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Speaker 3: And my now friend Charles McBrien. Hi, Charles, welcome back

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Speaker 3: to the show.

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Speaker 4: Hi know friends, Sharen it's wonderful to be here and

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Speaker 4: to know that you're a real person, not a.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, fun fact. I have met Charles in person, but

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Speaker 3: I have not met James in person, and I think

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Speaker 3: that's pretty funny.

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Speaker 2: That's why I got colleague and Charles colfriends. I think

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Speaker 2: we're not taking by.

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Speaker 1: To it to that.

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Speaker 3: Don't read it too that.

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Speaker 4: Okay, we have.

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Speaker 3: We're talking about World Central Kitchen and the tragedy that

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Speaker 3: happened last week in which seven AID workers were killed.

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Speaker 3: Both of these gentlemen have personal experience with the organization,

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Speaker 3: so I thought it would be good to talk about.

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Speaker 3: But James take it.

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Speaker 2: Away, Okay, So yeah, I think I think we should

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Speaker 2: maybe start off Charles, you and I have both seen

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Speaker 2: World Central Kitchen in different places. Like my longest experience

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Speaker 2: with them was starting in twenty eighteen and Tijuana, right

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Speaker 2: when we were trying to feed people who were part

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Speaker 2: of a caravan of migrant to It arrived to write

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Speaker 2: before the midterms, and what was a relatively normal thing

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Speaker 2: became a really big political sort of football, which resulted

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Speaker 2: in the people, remember, like people being tear gassed in

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Speaker 2: Mexico from inside the United States, people being held first

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Speaker 2: in a baseball stadium and then in an old strip club,

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Speaker 2: which was really gross. And they're being essentially no NGO

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Speaker 2: presence at first, and then Mutual Aid presence and then

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Speaker 2: World Center Kitchen. Were one of the first people to

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Speaker 2: show up and cook for people, and like at this

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Speaker 2: point there was a really dying of need for food.

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Speaker 2: Like I have this vivid memory of three of my

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Speaker 2: friends and I are riding in a bed of a

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Speaker 2: pickup truck into this refugee camp and people just mobbing

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Speaker 2: for food and water, and like people would get about

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Speaker 2: like not stamping on children once once we stopped, but

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Speaker 2: like I was really worried there was going to be

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Speaker 2: a crash. People were very hungry and very thirsty, and

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Speaker 2: I had just had massive respect for people showing up

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Speaker 2: and just being like, we are people who cook food.

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Speaker 2: What we hate to do is cook food, and these

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Speaker 2: people hungryes who are going to give it to them?

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Speaker 2: And so I've always been admiring of their work since then.

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Speaker 2: And I went to Childs, like what your sort of

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Speaker 2: initial experience was with them, and if you could describe

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Speaker 2: like sort of what sort of work you've seen them doing.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, So first experience that I had with World Central

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Speaker 4: Kitchen was actually hands off. It was when my friends

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Speaker 4: and I we created this thing four years ago called

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Speaker 4: the Farm Link Project, which is a food rescue organization.

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Speaker 4: It basically finds food that's going to waste on farms

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Speaker 4: and are pays the wages of the truckers and the

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Speaker 4: drivers to transport the food to food banks that are overworked.

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Speaker 4: We sort of tagged in with World Central Kitchen in

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Speaker 4: the beginning of COVID and talked with them a little bit,

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Speaker 4: but there was never any official partnership. Some of their

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Speaker 4: comms people gave us advice, some of their fundraising people

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Speaker 4: with advice. First time I ever saw them in operation

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Speaker 4: was coming into the Jimish train station week two of

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Speaker 4: the Ukraine War, and they were the organization feeding all

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Speaker 4: the refugees coming in a bunch of people in the

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Speaker 4: World Central Kitchen, and the thing I noticed was none

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Speaker 4: of them were speaking English. They were all speaking Polish

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Speaker 4: and Ukrainian or Russian. And I started to realize, this

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Speaker 4: is an organization that knows how to mobilize a local

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Speaker 4: population in a local response as a part of the thing.

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Speaker 4: And that's something I really noticed when almost a year later,

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Speaker 4: I flew from Ukraine to Turkey when a seven point

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Speaker 4: five Magetude earthquake went through southeastern Turkey Kardastan, and I

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Speaker 4: flew into Adnanna and then basically linked up with the

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Speaker 4: World Central Kitchen people in the in the city of Osmania.

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Speaker 4: And one of the things I notice was how quickly

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Speaker 4: they were able to get into Syria when nobody else

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Speaker 4: was getting into Syria. And the reason is because it's

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Speaker 4: just chefs. It's just using chefs in restaurants in places

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Speaker 4: where they already exist. Every place in the world has

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Speaker 4: chefs and restaurants. And Jose Andres has this amazing quote

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Speaker 4: that I really like. He says, everyone already works for

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Speaker 4: World Central Kitchen, they just don't know it yet. And

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Speaker 4: I saw that in action. I saw all these kitchens

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Speaker 4: transformed into you know, shelters and food distribution sites, and

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Speaker 4: I got to work alongside their team. So my project,

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Speaker 4: I was trying to fundraise for heaters and blankets to

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Speaker 4: heat the AFAD tents in the affected regions in Kurdistan

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Speaker 4: and in the Kurdish villages on the on the border

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Speaker 4: with Syria, because there was it was still very cold

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Speaker 4: at that time and there was not, you know, adequate

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Speaker 4: attention paid to that. Obviously, AFAD and its cronies is

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Speaker 4: part of the whole reason that that incident was as

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Speaker 4: bad as it was. But World Central Kitchen stepped up

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Speaker 4: in a big way in Turkey, and I was really

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Speaker 4: impressed with kind of their outfit. We were working out

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Speaker 4: of the same distribution center, you know. I got to

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Speaker 4: a company, Jose Andres on a couple of his deliveries,

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Speaker 4: and we went in to Hate and walked around and

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Speaker 4: saw the extent of the devastation and visited all the

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Speaker 4: World Central Kitchen feeding sites and it was just it

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Speaker 4: was all Turkish people and Gurtish people who were there

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Speaker 4: working from World Central Kitchen. They had been mobilized by

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Speaker 4: this entity. So there's this decentralized element to World Central

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Speaker 4: Kitchen that I found really impressive. It didn't feel like

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Speaker 4: the top down, bureaucratic thing I kept running into in

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Speaker 4: my humanitarian work with these big NGOs. It was much

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Speaker 4: more grassroots, much more bottom up. So it gained a

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Speaker 4: lot of respect for me in that sense. Yeah, I

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Speaker 4: think that's a really good point to make that they

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Speaker 4: do have a different model. It allows them to be

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Speaker 4: flexible it allowed them to be places where other people aren't.

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Speaker 4: Like I think a lot of people, prehaps like are

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Speaker 4: not as familiar with the NGO world as you and

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Speaker 4: I might be. Like, NGOs often present themselves in places

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Speaker 4: where people need help. But it's like, you know, they

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Speaker 4: have large office buildings in white Land cruises, and they

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Speaker 4: have one way of doing things, and it's their way,

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Speaker 4: and sometimes that doesn't work well. I can recount countless

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Speaker 4: examples of this, right, NGOs that exist to do things

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Speaker 4: in a certain way and don't adapt to a local

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Speaker 4: situation or culture. And that's something the World Central Kitchen

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Speaker 4: have done really well in my experience, all over the world. Yeah,

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Speaker 4: they graft themselves on to a local response and every

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Speaker 4: everywhere that they go, it takes on a local flavor.

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Speaker 4: And I think it's that's why this happened, is because

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Speaker 4: they inserted themselves into a highly volatile situation and because

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Speaker 4: they are so decentralized, and because they are so on

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Speaker 4: the ground, they also expose themselves to the realities of

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Speaker 4: what Palestinians have been facing in Gaza and lost members

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Speaker 4: of their team, you know, as a result. And I

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Speaker 4: think that is part of that is there's a lot

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Speaker 4: of people who won't even go into Gaza, you know,

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Speaker 4: if they had the opportunity, like you said, these big nngos.

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Speaker 4: I think last time I was on the podcast Sharen,

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Speaker 4: I talked about, you know, seeing these big UN advertisements

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Speaker 4: in the Copenhagen airport saying save Ukrainian children when I

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Speaker 4: first when I was going over there, and then as

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Speaker 4: soon as I got there, I mean, the minute you

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Speaker 4: go east to Leviv, You're not going to see a

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Speaker 4: UN truck anywhere. And it was it was that way

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Speaker 4: for nine months, you know, INBA it was just a

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Speaker 4: bunch of people with like brand new white Land cruise

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Speaker 4: or prados sipping cocktails in Leviv while subcontracting with actual

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Speaker 4: humanitarians working closer to the front line. World Central Kitchen

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Speaker 4: was not that way. They were all the way out,

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Speaker 4: all the way on the east. Everywhere I went there

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Speaker 4: was World Central Kitchen cars even deep into Donyetsk. And

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Speaker 4: that was really impressive.

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Speaker 1: It just fit.

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Speaker 4: It was so it felt antithetical to the whole nonprofit

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Speaker 4: industrial complex model that I'd become familiar with, and I

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Speaker 4: was impressed by that.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, so perhaps we should to speak about exactly what

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Speaker 2: they were doing in Gaza, because I think people are

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Speaker 2: practical a little confused. There's been a lot of like

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Speaker 2: misinformation from all kinds of angles about what they were

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Speaker 2: doing in Gaza, So do you have a good handle

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Speaker 2: on that.

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Speaker 4: I mean, World Central Kitchen positioned itself. They engage in

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Speaker 4: slightly more activist humanitarianism than most organizations, which is why

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Speaker 4: I mean jose Andres went big on Ukraine. He was there,

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Speaker 4: he brought the whole team. I mean, they put they

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Speaker 4: dedicated so many resources to Ukraine, and for him it

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Speaker 4: was unequivocal. Ukrainians are the good guys, Russians are the

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Speaker 4: bad guys. We're helping the victims of this conflict, and

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Speaker 4: you know, we're on the side of the Angels in

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Speaker 4: this And that was the positioning, and I think it

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Speaker 4: was a bit of a wake up call when after

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Speaker 4: October seventh he did the same thing in Israel and

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Speaker 4: went and you know, gave food to the to the

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Speaker 4: to the different Kibut seam that were affected by the

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Speaker 4: October seventh attacks, and at first very much positioned himself

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Speaker 4: as like, we're here to help relieve the affected Israelis,

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Speaker 4: which again, for like polite liberals in the humanitarian world.

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Speaker 4: You know, Israel Ukraine both aligned with Western interests, Western

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Speaker 4: values theoretically, and I think and then you know, suddenly

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Speaker 4: the war focus goes from what happened in the Kibut

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Speaker 4: sim to what's happening in Gaza. And so they went

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Speaker 4: to Egypt and they started helping the refugees, and then

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Speaker 4: they tried to get into Gaza. Then they did get

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Speaker 4: into Gaza and they set up, you know, an effective

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Speaker 4: system of of food aid. And I started to notice

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Speaker 4: while that was happening that the perspectives of a lot

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Speaker 4: of the people that I was working with in the

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Speaker 4: AD community were starting to s on this whole thing.

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Speaker 4: People who didn't have a political interest in supporting the

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Speaker 4: Palestinians and we're just kind of supporting Israel because of

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Speaker 4: the default. When they actually went to Gaza, they started

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Speaker 4: to really change their tune. And you see this a

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Speaker 4: little bit with Jose Andres as well. I think Jose

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Speaker 4: Andres was, yeah, I mean this in terms of his

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Speaker 4: personal views on Israel, they seem to have very clearly evolved.

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Speaker 4: You can see very soon after October seventh, he is

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Speaker 4: calling out the Spanish Prime Minister on calling what's happening

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Speaker 4: in Palestine and genocide. He's saying that Israel has the

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Speaker 4: right to defend itself, and then he spends a bunch

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Speaker 4: of time in Gaza, and now he's greeting everyone in Arabic,

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Speaker 4: and then this thing happens and he immediately points the

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Speaker 4: finger at ISRAELI says, you guys targeted my team, you

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Speaker 4: killed them deliberately, and you made sure the job was finished,

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Speaker 4: and that is just so reproachable. And in doing so,

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Speaker 4: he became one of the only really big celebrity voices

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Speaker 4: to make what appeared to be something of a one

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Speaker 4: to eighty turn on that conflict. And pretty much everyone

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Speaker 4: that I've worked with in the humanitarian or journalism space

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Speaker 4: has also done the same thing in regard to Gaza.

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Speaker 4: I'd say most people thought my views on this were

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Speaker 4: too extreme after October seventh, when I began immediately criticizing Israel,

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Speaker 4: and now the ones who have actually been there pretty

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Speaker 4: much on equivocally say they're the bad actor in this region.

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Speaker 4: And I think you saw that shift happen in real

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Speaker 4: time with sort of the attitude that World Central Kitchen

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Speaker 4: took to Gaza. All of that stuff is available from

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Speaker 4: public statements, And I don't want to share private sentiments

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Speaker 4: that have been shared with me by members of World

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Speaker 4: Central Kitchen staff. Those are their own and they don't

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Speaker 4: represent the organization. But I think even just watching the

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Speaker 4: yo yo of Jose Andres's perspective on this change has

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Speaker 4: been enlightening.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, And I think, like it's easy to be critical

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Speaker 2: of someone having opinions which like have not aids well, right, Like,

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Speaker 2: and sometimes that's okay. Sometimes some since we need to

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Speaker 2: do that. Sometimes people say shit which is unforgivable. But

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Speaker 2: like I think in this instance, like we can be

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Speaker 2: critical at a point, but I don't think now it's

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Speaker 2: a time for that. Like I think now it's a

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Speaker 2: time for like everyone who wants the starving and killing

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Speaker 2: of innocent people in Gaza to stop is on our

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Speaker 2: side right now, and we need to welcome that. And like,

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Speaker 2: there are a lot of people in this country right

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Speaker 2: who we need to do that same one eighty and

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Speaker 2: giving examples of people doing that is good, like they

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Speaker 2: and there are a lot of people who don't see

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Speaker 2: themselves when they see dead people in Gaza, and that's

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Speaker 2: a problem, right, And that's some shit that they need

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Speaker 2: to examine. And because there's a lot of bigotry there.

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Speaker 2: But if they see themselves in those aid workers, or

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Speaker 2: they see themselves in Jose Andres and look, fucking when

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Speaker 2: I saw the bodies of those aid workers, right you

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Speaker 2: have a tall, skinny British guy with long hair in

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Speaker 2: a plate carrier with a badge on like that, That's

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Speaker 2: what I look like to ninety nine percent of the world,

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Speaker 2: and it's hard not to feel like, oh shit, like

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Speaker 2: that could be me, and I have well, I feel

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Speaker 2: like I have a lot of empathy for people in guards,

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Speaker 2: are friends in guards that we speak to them on

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Speaker 2: the podcast Shearing and I spoke to them last week.

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Speaker 2: But whatever it takes for those people to change their

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Speaker 2: opinions right now is what we need, and we can

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Speaker 2: we can dissect how we got here later, but like

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Speaker 2: every minute that this continues, more innocent people die. And

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Speaker 2: if we can stop this one minute sooner than there's

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Speaker 2: important lives that we can save. And I think it's

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Speaker 2: really important to focus on where we are, not like

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Speaker 2: how how we got here right now if that makes sense.

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Speaker 3: As far as global conflicts go, I believe it's like

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Speaker 3: two hundred and twenty four aid workers have died in Gaza,

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Speaker 3: which is not a normal number in any kind of war.

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Speaker 3: So that's according to the UN.

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Speaker 2: Yeah, one hundred journalists, right, like every there is one

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Speaker 2: person I can think of who has worked with in

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Speaker 2: Gaza who is still alive. Everyone I know has lot

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Speaker 2: of family members And that's just my tiny slice, you know,

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Speaker 2: and by no means as affected by this as most people.

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Speaker 2: But yeah, three times as many children have died since

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Speaker 2: October in Gaza as are normally killed in conflicts in

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Speaker 2: a year worldwide. It's fucking horrific. And yeah, we will

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Speaker 2: do well to put aside our differences and make it stop.

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Speaker 1: I think.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, I agree, opposition to genocide and wanting to end

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Speaker 4: it should be a very big tent. And the fact

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Speaker 4: that some people on the internet are trying to make

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Speaker 4: it a smaller one doesn't make a lot of sense

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Speaker 4: to me.

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Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, yeah, it promotes infighting, which is not helpful

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Speaker 3: right now. Yeah, it is helpful to not call it

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Speaker 3: a war and continue can't get a genocide because that's

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Speaker 3: what it is. So yeah, just continuing to change all

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Speaker 3: the rhetoric around this genocide I think is important. This

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Speaker 3: is also not the first time that Israel has directly

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Speaker 3: targeted aid workers that are clearly labeled as aid workers.

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Speaker 3: In two thousand and six and Lebanon, Israel struck a

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Speaker 3: red cross ambulance right in the center of the logo,

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Speaker 3: right on top of the truck. There was or the

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Speaker 3: van was a red cross, a clear red cross, and

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Speaker 3: it struck right in the center. I think that image

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Speaker 3: is now going around again from two thousand and six again,

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Speaker 3: I thought the first time that Israel has directly targeted

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Speaker 3: aid workers, and I think it's really appalling seeing leadership

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Speaker 3: in Israel just kind of apologize half hardly, being like

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Speaker 3: this was a mistake, and then they just move on.

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Speaker 3: It's if this was the red line for people one,

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Speaker 3: I find that frustrating. But if it's finally the red

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Speaker 3: line for people, I just hope it continues and people

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Speaker 3: don't let it go.

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Speaker 2: That story there was absolutely fucking heartbreaking, right of that

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Speaker 2: young girl who is trapped in her car and she

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Speaker 2: called the ambulance, and the ambulance came and they bombed

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Speaker 2: the ambulance. Fight they killed her, and they kill the

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Speaker 2: ambulance drivers. Like those two ambulance drivers were Palestinian. They

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Speaker 2: were working for the Palestinian recrest, and they deserve every

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Speaker 2: bit as much outrage as to what Centralkitchen people do.

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Speaker 2: What they did with every bit as admirable. But like,

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Speaker 2: if this is what it takes for people to change,

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Speaker 2: then like I hope that they will also acknowledge that

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Speaker 2: everything else that happened before was an a trustee too.

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Speaker 2: Talking of like a trustees, we have an advertising break now.

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Speaker 3: That was good James, good job, and we're back. Charles.

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Speaker 3: You recently got some online attention for a video that

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Speaker 3: you posted that was highlighting the vast imbalance of attention

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Speaker 3: that the targeted assassination of the AID workers got in

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Speaker 3: comparison to the murder and genocide of Palestinians. Specifically, people

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Speaker 3: were talking about how there was also a Palestinian driver

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Speaker 3: who was murdered along with the AID workers and his

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Speaker 3: name was not getting mentioned. His name is safe, Isam Abudaha.

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Speaker 3: And just a reminder of how frustrating it is that

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Speaker 3: this had to be the red line for people. There

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Speaker 3: are over thirty three thousand people in Gaza who have

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Speaker 3: been murdered, nearly half of which are children. There are

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Speaker 3: probably thousands more who are trapped under the Rubble and

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Speaker 3: other thousands that are just unaccounted for because of the

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Speaker 3: bobbing of hospitals and the lack of records. So to

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Speaker 3: have the killing of six aid workers be a red

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Speaker 3: line for people, That's what I mean by saying it's

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Speaker 3: frustrating because it is a tragedy. But tragedy has been

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Speaker 3: taking place for the past six months and also the

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Speaker 3: past seventy six years. So yes, the video that Charles

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Speaker 3: made got some well deserved attention, and I'd love for

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Speaker 3: you to talk about it a little bit.

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Speaker 4: Yeah, this was like a strange convergence of things for

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Speaker 4: me because I had been keeping up with the WCK

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Speaker 4: team as they went into Gaza. I'd actually even been

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Speaker 4: in conversations with some of them about potentially going there,

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Speaker 4: but I hadn't. I mean, like these were just buddies

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Speaker 4: from a humanitarian trip. I mean, you know, like James

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Speaker 4: probably knows, you make friends really fast when you're connected,

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Speaker 4: when you're in these sorts of scenarios, And you know,

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Speaker 4: I had, I made friendships while I was in Turkey

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Speaker 4: that I've I've maintained, and but then my my Palestinian

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Speaker 4: advocacy was separate. You know, I'm over here educating and everything,

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Speaker 4: and then suddenly there's this convergence of like former you know,

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Speaker 4: co workers on this team dying and then it being

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Speaker 4: the fault of this regime that I've spent the last

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Speaker 4: six months trying to educate people on why it's bad.

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Speaker 4: And I posted a video which was my tribute to

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Speaker 4: the fallen WCK employees, who were very close friends of

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Speaker 4: people that I got really close to on that project,

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Speaker 4: and it was a tribute to them and also a

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Speaker 4: way of pointing out how their martyrdom has has overshadowed

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Speaker 4: the martyrdom of so many Palestinians who will never get

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Speaker 4: the kind of press and attention that they did, and

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Speaker 4: I think it achieved that effect. The video went very,

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Speaker 4: very viral. It's exceeded a million views on TikTok, It's

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Speaker 4: around a quarter of a million on Instagram, and more

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Speaker 4: than that on the accounts that have reposted and shared it,

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Speaker 4: sometimes without the context that I am not a World

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Speaker 4: Central Kitchen employee, nor do I represent the opinions of

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Speaker 4: the organization. And one of the things that I think

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Speaker 4: made that story go viral is that I did shift

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Speaker 4: the attention to I said, this is a genocide, and

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Speaker 4: I said, as grieved as I am at the loss

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Speaker 4: of these people that I have this connection with, I

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Speaker 4: do want to point out that it is overshadowing the

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Speaker 4: horrendous loss of life of Palestinians, and I think that

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Speaker 4: resonated with a lot of people. It also resonated with

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Speaker 4: my former my friends at w CK, who reached out

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Speaker 4: to say, we appreciate you using your platform to talk

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Speaker 4: about this, especially considering the fact that w CK employees

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Speaker 4: do not typically are not really supposed to be making

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Speaker 4: statements online about this, so they have a little more

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Speaker 4: leeway with that concerning the fact that the head of

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Speaker 4: the organization has explicitly now condemned Israel for this strike.

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Speaker 4: But I've had some very interesting conversations with friends of

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Speaker 4: mine that either still work or connected to the organization.

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Speaker 4: And that's a slightly complicated thing because World Central Kitchen

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Speaker 4: subcontracts with so many different people, so at any given point,

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Speaker 4: there are people who are connected to World Central Kitchen

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Speaker 4: who are not representatives of the organization or technically employees,

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Speaker 4: So you know, you can't say definitively this is what

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Speaker 4: the majority of people in WCK f about Gaza or

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Speaker 4: Israel or anything. You know, different people have different opinions

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Speaker 4: about that whole situation.

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Speaker 2: I think what you tried to do was obviously not

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Speaker 2: to represent them, and it would be Disingenuousony want suggest

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Speaker 2: you did, but the internet does that. I want to

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Speaker 2: talk about one more, talking of disingenuous things on the Internet.

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Speaker 2: I guess there was this thing that went around immediately

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Speaker 2: in the aftermath of the photos coming out of the

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Speaker 2: different people's corpses that like it seemed to be mostly

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Speaker 2: like tankies or perhaps people who still believe that they

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Speaker 2: can generate revenue from FEUs on Twitter saying that like

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Speaker 2: because these people had a security team, the security team

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Speaker 2: was somehow spies, and the evidence they were working for

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Speaker 2: its right, Like, and you can speak to your experience, Charles,

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Speaker 2: like I've worked with security teams and seeing people working

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Speaker 2: with security teams all over the fucking world because war

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Speaker 2: is dangerous and you have the thing that everyone needs.

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Speaker 2: If you have the misfortune of being a veteran of

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Speaker 2: the global War on Terror, you have very few outlets

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Speaker 2: for your skill set. One of those is providing security

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Speaker 2: for humanitarian actors and journalists, and that is one of

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Speaker 2: the most pro social applications of your skill set. Yeah,

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Speaker 2: things to do with those skills, believe me.

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Speaker 4: Right. So I have encountered a lot of people in

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Speaker 4: my time in Ukraine and elsewhere who have decided to

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Speaker 4: turn their sort of military intelligence background experience into you know, well, okay,

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Speaker 4: I'm good at this. I'm familiar with these types of scenarios.

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Speaker 4: And if there's one thing I'm decent at, it's well

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Speaker 4: at least trying to keep people safe and give them intelligence.

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Speaker 4: And that is a that's never a guarantee. But in

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Speaker 4: all the people I've met who actually are legit, you know,

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Speaker 4: security consultants or just veterans who have applied their skills

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Speaker 4: towards a pro social, humanitarian proper are pretty good guys.

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Speaker 4: And while I'm sure you know there are some of

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Speaker 4: them who are connected to various you are still connected

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Speaker 4: to sort of the intelligence services of their various countries.

437
00:24:15,640 --> 00:24:17,840
Speaker 4: I think that's definitely a possibility. A lot of them

438
00:24:17,880 --> 00:24:20,040
Speaker 4: are not. They're just veterans who are trying to help

439
00:24:20,080 --> 00:24:22,000
Speaker 4: and they this is a way that they can make

440
00:24:22,040 --> 00:24:24,640
Speaker 4: a living and while doing something that has a low

441
00:24:24,680 --> 00:24:28,680
Speaker 4: moral hazard. So yeah, I dismissed that stuff. There's a

442
00:24:28,680 --> 00:24:32,080
Speaker 4: lot of conspiracies. The problem is, I mean, in the

443
00:24:32,160 --> 00:24:36,680
Speaker 4: vacuum of the sort of post manufacturing consent world where

444
00:24:36,680 --> 00:24:39,800
Speaker 4: none of us trust the Western liberal media, a lot

445
00:24:39,800 --> 00:24:43,199
Speaker 4: of people trust stuff that's even dumber, including just like

446
00:24:43,880 --> 00:24:46,919
Speaker 4: takes on the Internet that somebody pulled out of their ass.

447
00:24:47,560 --> 00:24:49,840
Speaker 4: And a lot of it is if you have set

448
00:24:49,880 --> 00:24:53,359
Speaker 4: yourself up against everything that comes out of the West,

449
00:24:53,400 --> 00:24:56,239
Speaker 4: then every everything that looks like a fingerprint of an

450
00:24:56,240 --> 00:24:59,919
Speaker 4: intelligence agency or anything is going to ring your ow

451
00:25:00,119 --> 00:25:03,200
Speaker 4: arm bells, obviously, you know, James. I feel like Ukraine

452
00:25:03,240 --> 00:25:05,119
Speaker 4: is a great example of this. The fact that the

453
00:25:05,200 --> 00:25:08,159
Speaker 4: United States supports Ukraine means that Ukraine must be the villain,

454
00:25:08,680 --> 00:25:10,959
Speaker 4: and that the entire thing must be a CIA si

455
00:25:11,080 --> 00:25:13,000
Speaker 4: OP and their spies everywhere. And I'm a spy for

456
00:25:13,080 --> 00:25:16,200
Speaker 4: going to Ukraine and helping grandmothers get their insulin. All

457
00:25:16,240 --> 00:25:18,800
Speaker 4: of those things have been said about Ukraine, about me,

458
00:25:19,080 --> 00:25:22,119
Speaker 4: about you know, that sort of thing, and we know,

459
00:25:22,480 --> 00:25:25,600
Speaker 4: we know it's not true. It's just that people. I mean, these,

460
00:25:25,840 --> 00:25:29,080
Speaker 4: as far as I know, these were guys who were

461
00:25:29,119 --> 00:25:32,520
Speaker 4: security consultants very similar to I work with a lot

462
00:25:32,520 --> 00:25:35,359
Speaker 4: of British veterans of the Global War on tear basically

463
00:25:35,480 --> 00:25:37,960
Speaker 4: on various different projects, some of it having to do

464
00:25:38,000 --> 00:25:42,199
Speaker 4: with PTSD, others having to do with environmental conservation, some

465
00:25:42,280 --> 00:25:45,359
Speaker 4: of whom have worked in Palestine and been in the

466
00:25:45,359 --> 00:25:49,520
Speaker 4: West Bank. And I think Brits by and large have

467
00:25:49,600 --> 00:25:53,280
Speaker 4: a more sane perspective on Palestine than people in the

468
00:25:53,359 --> 00:25:55,639
Speaker 4: US do. I've just noticed that they are like fewer

469
00:25:55,720 --> 00:25:58,480
Speaker 4: ultra zionist Brits than Americans.

470
00:25:58,720 --> 00:26:01,480
Speaker 2: I think our politics is lift nominated by that perspective.

471
00:26:01,640 --> 00:26:05,080
Speaker 2: There are ultra zionist British people, but yeah, it's also

472
00:26:05,320 --> 00:26:09,119
Speaker 2: just I think a little bit harder to live a

473
00:26:09,160 --> 00:26:13,560
Speaker 2: life in Britain where you don't know, it's not Palestinian people,

474
00:26:14,160 --> 00:26:17,840
Speaker 2: Arab people and and Muslim people, right, and that complete

475
00:26:17,840 --> 00:26:22,200
Speaker 2: demonization and dehumanization of Muslim people that the Western media

476
00:26:22,240 --> 00:26:25,520
Speaker 2: did for twenty years to manufacture consent for war that

477
00:26:25,920 --> 00:26:28,560
Speaker 2: wasn't about weapons of master attraction or women in Afghanistan.

478
00:26:29,080 --> 00:26:32,119
Speaker 2: It doesn't stick the landing quite so well when like,

479
00:26:32,359 --> 00:26:34,720
Speaker 2: you have friends and you can kind of see through

480
00:26:34,720 --> 00:26:35,280
Speaker 2: the nonsense.

481
00:26:35,400 --> 00:26:37,639
Speaker 3: Yeah yeah, well, also I think the percentage of like

482
00:26:37,680 --> 00:26:39,840
Speaker 3: evangelical Christians was probably much less.

483
00:26:40,600 --> 00:26:40,800
Speaker 4: Yeah.

484
00:26:40,840 --> 00:26:43,480
Speaker 2: No, one's breeding a fucking Red Cow in England to

485
00:26:43,520 --> 00:26:46,520
Speaker 2: take it to this third temple that I know of.

486
00:26:47,840 --> 00:26:48,960
Speaker 4: That was one of the things I was going to

487
00:26:49,040 --> 00:26:50,679
Speaker 4: point out is I don't think you even have to

488
00:26:50,800 --> 00:26:53,080
Speaker 4: know like to be a Zionist, you don't even have

489
00:26:53,080 --> 00:26:55,080
Speaker 4: to know Jewish people in the US. I was raised

490
00:26:55,080 --> 00:26:58,440
Speaker 4: an ultra Zionist without knowing a single Jewish family, because

491
00:26:58,720 --> 00:27:01,639
Speaker 4: I came from an Evangelic community in South Carolina that

492
00:27:01,760 --> 00:27:06,800
Speaker 4: was very Christo nationalist, very kind of culturally dispensationalist. Even

493
00:27:06,800 --> 00:27:09,439
Speaker 4: though my family wasn't dispensationalist. It was all about in

494
00:27:09,560 --> 00:27:12,640
Speaker 4: times you support Israel because that's where you know, that's

495
00:27:12,640 --> 00:27:15,479
Speaker 4: where Jesus is going to come back. So yeah, I remember,

496
00:27:15,520 --> 00:27:18,679
Speaker 4: I mean I I even had like fake Passover ceremonies

497
00:27:18,680 --> 00:27:21,880
Speaker 4: in our church. God, this is bringing up some interesting.

498
00:27:24,080 --> 00:27:25,480
Speaker 2: Into the trillma bugs.

499
00:27:26,000 --> 00:27:28,960
Speaker 4: But truly, I mean one of my one of my

500
00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:33,000
Speaker 4: early sort of I would say I was I was

501
00:27:33,119 --> 00:27:36,520
Speaker 4: completely anti Zionist before I was even a leftist. And

502
00:27:36,560 --> 00:27:38,520
Speaker 4: part of that reason was because I got to know

503
00:27:38,560 --> 00:27:42,199
Speaker 4: a Palestinian friend in Washington, d C. While sharing a

504
00:27:42,280 --> 00:27:48,240
Speaker 4: desk with an Israeli conservative and a liberal Zionist, and.

505
00:27:48,880 --> 00:27:52,320
Speaker 3: Yeah, joke like these people walk into a bar. Yeah,

506
00:27:53,040 --> 00:27:53,800
Speaker 3: trio of people.

507
00:27:54,520 --> 00:27:57,000
Speaker 4: So I like, I think I had kind of I

508
00:27:57,040 --> 00:27:59,919
Speaker 4: got pilled on Palestine. Part of it was because, like

509
00:28:00,160 --> 00:28:03,040
Speaker 4: I was a history major in college, so I learned historiography.

510
00:28:03,119 --> 00:28:06,640
Speaker 4: I just never applied historiography to the Israel Palestine conflict.

511
00:28:07,119 --> 00:28:09,760
Speaker 4: And then having these two voices in my ear while

512
00:28:09,800 --> 00:28:11,680
Speaker 4: like living and working in DC, I was like, oh,

513
00:28:11,680 --> 00:28:14,280
Speaker 4: I need to actually look into this, and so yeah,

514
00:28:14,280 --> 00:28:15,560
Speaker 4: I mean I would say even before I was like

515
00:28:15,600 --> 00:28:19,800
Speaker 4: a leftist, I was down on Israel. I figured they

516
00:28:19,800 --> 00:28:22,719
Speaker 4: were not the good guys. And then I think reading

517
00:28:22,880 --> 00:28:27,000
Speaker 4: The Fateful Triangle by nome Chromsky really solidified that. And

518
00:28:27,720 --> 00:28:30,439
Speaker 4: obviously Ilan Pope kind of was the nail on the

519
00:28:30,440 --> 00:28:33,840
Speaker 4: coffin for me. So and speaking of like, you know

520
00:28:33,920 --> 00:28:38,440
Speaker 4: what happens in DC, and you know, American's opinions on

521
00:28:38,720 --> 00:28:43,320
Speaker 4: the Middle East, most of them are dog shit opinions

522
00:28:43,640 --> 00:28:46,280
Speaker 4: because most people do not have some sort of strong

523
00:28:46,320 --> 00:28:49,440
Speaker 4: point of reference to this zone. But it goes back

524
00:28:49,480 --> 00:28:52,920
Speaker 4: to what we were saying about how being against genocides

525
00:28:52,920 --> 00:28:55,200
Speaker 4: should be a very big tent and we should resist

526
00:28:55,240 --> 00:28:58,400
Speaker 4: efforts to make it smaller. Because I'm reading through the

527
00:28:58,520 --> 00:29:02,840
Speaker 4: hundred years War on Palestine now Rashid Khaldi, and one

528
00:29:02,840 --> 00:29:06,520
Speaker 4: of the things that he said is how the war

529
00:29:07,880 --> 00:29:11,160
Speaker 4: is fought in the United States in Congress because we

530
00:29:11,280 --> 00:29:15,320
Speaker 4: hold the keys. So as much as it's as painful

531
00:29:15,360 --> 00:29:18,000
Speaker 4: as it is to try and change the minds of

532
00:29:18,600 --> 00:29:24,320
Speaker 4: dumb Americans with no geopolitical understanding, it's absolutely essential to

533
00:29:25,160 --> 00:29:29,680
Speaker 4: holding Israel to account. It is actually one of the

534
00:29:29,720 --> 00:29:33,480
Speaker 4: best things that you can do. And when someone who

535
00:29:33,560 --> 00:29:38,480
Speaker 4: has the international appeal of Chef Jose Andres points the

536
00:29:38,480 --> 00:29:41,600
Speaker 4: finger at Israel and said, you killed my employees deliberately

537
00:29:41,840 --> 00:29:46,360
Speaker 4: and you're starving Gosans, that goes a long way towards

538
00:29:46,880 --> 00:29:50,720
Speaker 4: shifting the opinions of the people who actually hold the

539
00:29:50,800 --> 00:29:52,280
Speaker 4: keys to everything Israel does.

540
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think that's a very good point. And like

541
00:29:56,520 --> 00:29:58,600
Speaker 2: that's what we need to do, right I's to up

542
00:29:58,640 --> 00:30:01,640
Speaker 2: stop them getting bombs to kill people, not argue you

543
00:30:01,680 --> 00:30:04,680
Speaker 2: on Twitter or you know, Instagram or what have you. Like,

544
00:30:04,760 --> 00:30:11,000
Speaker 2: we need to make the killing stop. I wonder like

545
00:30:12,320 --> 00:30:14,840
Speaker 2: you spoke a childs but knowing people I know, World's

546
00:30:14,880 --> 00:30:19,600
Speaker 2: Central Kitchen are no longer working in Gaza for the

547
00:30:19,680 --> 00:30:22,360
Speaker 2: time being. From when is that's still correct.

548
00:30:22,480 --> 00:30:26,320
Speaker 4: They they've publicly announced that they're scaling back their efforts. Yes,

549
00:30:26,640 --> 00:30:29,040
Speaker 4: I'm not sure if they're going to totally close down

550
00:30:29,120 --> 00:30:32,200
Speaker 4: their operation. I think right now they're probably trying to

551
00:30:33,080 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 4: reconsider their security protocols before making another step.

552
00:30:37,320 --> 00:30:41,680
Speaker 2: Yeah, I mean, I don't really know what as there

553
00:30:41,720 --> 00:30:44,680
Speaker 2: are things, of course, but like they did attempt to

554
00:30:44,680 --> 00:30:47,480
Speaker 2: deconflict I guess, and they were using a road which

555
00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:50,720
Speaker 2: is designated for the use that they were using it for.

556
00:30:50,760 --> 00:30:54,240
Speaker 3: And Israel knew where they were, Like it's they have

557
00:30:54,320 --> 00:30:57,240
Speaker 3: to report where they are. So I mean, it would

558
00:30:57,240 --> 00:31:01,240
Speaker 3: be fucking crazy if Israel attacked workers again right now,

559
00:31:01,800 --> 00:31:06,120
Speaker 3: but also it's Israel. I mean, I need done crazier things.

560
00:31:06,200 --> 00:31:08,760
Speaker 4: Yeah, but can we like dwell on that for a second.

561
00:31:08,880 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 4: Like Israel constantly boasts about its ISR capabilities in IR's intelligence,

562
00:31:14,800 --> 00:31:18,719
Speaker 4: surveillance and reconnaissance. So like Israel is constantly reassuring people

563
00:31:18,840 --> 00:31:22,880
Speaker 4: that it is doing everything it can to avoid civilian casualties,

564
00:31:22,880 --> 00:31:26,000
Speaker 4: it talks about its chain of command for approval. And

565
00:31:26,600 --> 00:31:28,800
Speaker 4: in light of that, none of the things that they've

566
00:31:28,840 --> 00:31:33,600
Speaker 4: said about this make any sense whatsoever, Because if they're

567
00:31:33,600 --> 00:31:37,160
Speaker 4: protocols because they're either it's like they can't decide what

568
00:31:37,280 --> 00:31:42,800
Speaker 4: they're trying to gaslight the world into believing. Every claim

569
00:31:42,800 --> 00:31:46,120
Speaker 4: that they're making is muddling what they're trying to get

570
00:31:46,160 --> 00:31:48,200
Speaker 4: the world to believe about them, and it just gives

571
00:31:48,200 --> 00:31:52,880
Speaker 4: everyone the distinct impression that they're recklessly incompetent, lying, evil,

572
00:31:53,040 --> 00:31:54,040
Speaker 4: or potentially all three.

573
00:31:55,280 --> 00:31:58,480
Speaker 2: Right, even if you look, I was because I don't

574
00:31:58,480 --> 00:32:00,200
Speaker 2: know why this is the thing that I do. I

575
00:32:00,240 --> 00:32:01,920
Speaker 2: was looking at like trying to work out what munition

576
00:32:02,040 --> 00:32:06,800
Speaker 2: Israel had used, right to destroy those vehicles, and Israel

577
00:32:06,920 --> 00:32:09,840
Speaker 2: has they have a number of different sort of musus

578
00:32:09,880 --> 00:32:12,360
Speaker 2: that they could have used. But one of the things

579
00:32:12,360 --> 00:32:14,520
Speaker 2: that they do in the US does it too. But

580
00:32:14,560 --> 00:32:17,400
Speaker 2: it's a bigger thing with Israel is if they have

581
00:32:17,560 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 2: inert or low yield health fire ammunitions, so guided munitions

582
00:32:21,040 --> 00:32:23,320
Speaker 2: at a five from a helicopter or a drone, and

583
00:32:23,360 --> 00:32:25,280
Speaker 2: they use them to do a thing that they call

584
00:32:25,440 --> 00:32:29,000
Speaker 2: roof knocking, right, which sounds maybe like you're like knocking

585
00:32:29,000 --> 00:32:31,280
Speaker 2: on someone's reof what you're doing is sending a missile

586
00:32:31,400 --> 00:32:35,000
Speaker 2: through somebody's roof, and that is the means by which

587
00:32:35,000 --> 00:32:37,760
Speaker 2: you alert them to evacuate the building because you're planning

588
00:32:37,760 --> 00:32:40,640
Speaker 2: a larger strike that in itself. Yeah, we have this

589
00:32:40,720 --> 00:32:44,080
Speaker 2: great ISR capability, and what do we do with it?

590
00:32:44,200 --> 00:32:48,240
Speaker 2: We launch missiles into the homes of civilians and then

591
00:32:48,280 --> 00:32:50,600
Speaker 2: hopefully they will run away in fear for their lives

592
00:32:50,640 --> 00:32:52,960
Speaker 2: so that more of them don't die when we blow

593
00:32:53,000 --> 00:32:57,000
Speaker 2: up that block ten minutes later. Like, it's just, you know,

594
00:32:57,520 --> 00:32:59,880
Speaker 2: you have to look at what's happening, not what's being said.

595
00:33:00,280 --> 00:33:01,440
Speaker 2: I guess, but.

596
00:33:01,440 --> 00:33:04,240
Speaker 4: No, they're absolutely allergic to accountability, and I think you

597
00:33:04,240 --> 00:33:05,960
Speaker 4: can see just how far they've been able to they're

598
00:33:05,960 --> 00:33:07,800
Speaker 4: scrambling now because they've been able to get away with

599
00:33:07,840 --> 00:33:11,080
Speaker 4: so much for so long, and their excuses are falling

600
00:33:11,080 --> 00:33:14,600
Speaker 4: apart because they're alternatively depicting themselves as a highly disciplined

601
00:33:14,600 --> 00:33:20,480
Speaker 4: and professional army or that they're just making mistakes because

602
00:33:20,480 --> 00:33:23,160
Speaker 4: it's war and that people should get off their back

603
00:33:23,200 --> 00:33:25,560
Speaker 4: because no one holds anyone else to the same standard

604
00:33:25,560 --> 00:33:27,560
Speaker 4: that they hold Israel. So it's like, which is it?

605
00:33:27,920 --> 00:33:29,840
Speaker 4: Like what are you trying to get the world to believe?

606
00:33:29,960 --> 00:33:32,320
Speaker 4: Are you either this like crack discipline unit with a

607
00:33:32,400 --> 00:33:35,680
Speaker 4: very sophisticated chain of command in an AI software that

608
00:33:35,720 --> 00:33:38,520
Speaker 4: you're really proud of for targeting or are you? Is

609
00:33:38,560 --> 00:33:40,520
Speaker 4: this the fog of war and you're just making mistakes

610
00:33:40,560 --> 00:33:42,240
Speaker 4: and everyone makes mistakes and we should get off your

611
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,080
Speaker 4: back for it because you can't have it both ways. Yeah,

612
00:33:45,120 --> 00:33:47,320
Speaker 4: the civilian casualties are too high for you to have

613
00:33:47,400 --> 00:33:52,560
Speaker 4: it both ways. So either you are making mistakes and

614
00:33:52,600 --> 00:33:55,320
Speaker 4: too many people are getting killed and you're violating the

615
00:33:55,360 --> 00:33:59,240
Speaker 4: laws of rule, or you're doing it deliberately, which is worse. Yeah,

616
00:34:00,240 --> 00:34:02,640
Speaker 4: make up there in minds, I guess Charles.

617
00:34:02,680 --> 00:34:04,800
Speaker 3: Thank you so much for joining us today. I really

618
00:34:04,880 --> 00:34:07,560
Speaker 3: respect all the work you do and I am grateful

619
00:34:07,640 --> 00:34:10,320
Speaker 3: that you have shared your voice with our audience once again.

620
00:34:10,680 --> 00:34:13,120
Speaker 3: Where can people find you on the internet if you

621
00:34:13,280 --> 00:34:15,760
Speaker 3: want to be found, thank.

622
00:34:15,600 --> 00:34:16,000
Speaker 2: You, Shrian.

623
00:34:16,280 --> 00:34:19,160
Speaker 4: Yeah, just you can find me pretty much everywhere except

624
00:34:19,200 --> 00:34:22,759
Speaker 4: Twitter with Charles McBride and that's McBride with a Y

625
00:34:23,360 --> 00:34:28,399
Speaker 4: rather than an I. It's on Substack, Instagram, TikTok, and

626
00:34:29,239 --> 00:34:32,399
Speaker 4: my website Charles McBride dot com will be live at

627
00:34:32,400 --> 00:34:36,200
Speaker 4: this point nice when this episode drops. So if you

628
00:34:36,200 --> 00:34:39,000
Speaker 4: want to support the humanitarian work I've been involved in

629
00:34:39,000 --> 00:34:43,080
Speaker 4: in Ukraine, you can support Mission Harkive on Instagram, it's

630
00:34:43,120 --> 00:34:48,680
Speaker 4: Mission dot harkive and their website is missionharkive dot com.

631
00:34:49,360 --> 00:34:52,120
Speaker 4: And if you're looking for an org that is already

632
00:34:52,120 --> 00:34:55,840
Speaker 4: working in Gaza to provide life saving aid in the

633
00:34:55,880 --> 00:34:58,839
Speaker 4: wake of you know, unrubbing gone, World Central Kitchen now

634
00:34:58,840 --> 00:35:02,920
Speaker 4: pulling out, Era pulling out, Global Empowerment Mission is still

635
00:35:02,960 --> 00:35:06,560
Speaker 4: there and still fulfilling a lot of the same functions

636
00:35:06,680 --> 00:35:08,719
Speaker 4: that those organizations were doing.

637
00:35:09,640 --> 00:35:23,640
Speaker 3: Thank you so much, Charles Scheren and James from the

638
00:35:23,640 --> 00:35:25,880
Speaker 3: future here giving you an update about the article that

639
00:35:25,920 --> 00:35:28,680
Speaker 3: we mentioned at the top of the episode. So the

640
00:35:28,719 --> 00:35:32,040
Speaker 3: title itself is I resigned from World Central Kitchen because

641
00:35:32,040 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 3: they refuse to tell the truth about the Israeli genocide

642
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:38,600
Speaker 3: and Gaza. The ex staffer is Ramsey Tatami. The article

643
00:35:38,600 --> 00:35:42,279
Speaker 3: itself has some really damning information about WCK, so we're

644
00:35:42,280 --> 00:35:45,680
Speaker 3: going to get into it. He says. For months, World

645
00:35:45,800 --> 00:35:49,200
Speaker 3: Central Kitchen leadership censored material coming out of its Gaza

646
00:35:49,280 --> 00:35:53,280
Speaker 3: operation and refuse to honor staff concerns about their work there.

647
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,359
Speaker 3: And even though they're finally taking a stand after its

648
00:35:56,360 --> 00:35:59,400
Speaker 3: personnel have been murdered, it is much too late. So

649
00:35:59,480 --> 00:36:02,120
Speaker 3: he resigned in early March of this year, and at

650
00:36:02,120 --> 00:36:04,680
Speaker 3: the time he was the only staff member of Palestinian

651
00:36:04,680 --> 00:36:07,960
Speaker 3: descent at WCK, and there is an amendment there. He

652
00:36:08,000 --> 00:36:12,000
Speaker 3: says that while WCK hired many Palestinian contractors in Gaza

653
00:36:12,040 --> 00:36:15,360
Speaker 3: in Egypt, he was the only Palestinian with staff status

654
00:36:15,400 --> 00:36:19,480
Speaker 3: following the departure of one other longtime employee, and he

655
00:36:19,560 --> 00:36:23,640
Speaker 3: resigned in protest of the extensive unexplained censorship regarding Gaza

656
00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:26,880
Speaker 3: at the organization. They talk about how in December seventh

657
00:36:26,960 --> 00:36:30,239
Speaker 3: of last year, they sent a letter to wck's executive team,

658
00:36:30,600 --> 00:36:33,880
Speaker 3: and that letter called for WCK to join other regionally

659
00:36:33,920 --> 00:36:38,120
Speaker 3: active NGOs in calling for a ceasefire and condemning Israel's blockade,

660
00:36:38,600 --> 00:36:41,040
Speaker 3: as well as conforming its language and coverage of Gaza

661
00:36:41,080 --> 00:36:43,440
Speaker 3: to the standard that was set by the coverage of Ukraine,

662
00:36:43,880 --> 00:36:47,759
Speaker 3: as well as stopping meal service in Israel. It got

663
00:36:47,760 --> 00:36:51,920
Speaker 3: forty three signatures, and the WCK executive team declined to

664
00:36:51,960 --> 00:36:54,200
Speaker 3: meet up with the people that signed the letter, and

665
00:36:54,280 --> 00:36:57,799
Speaker 3: they failed to respond to any inquiries, and they also

666
00:36:57,920 --> 00:37:01,120
Speaker 3: actively still served the meals in Israel well the second

667
00:37:01,239 --> 00:37:05,040
Speaker 3: day of the ICJ genocide. Hearing what's happening in January.

668
00:37:05,080 --> 00:37:07,200
Speaker 2: There's one paragraph that I want to dialet as well,

669
00:37:07,560 --> 00:37:11,360
Speaker 2: just because I think it's very crucial when we're discussing

670
00:37:11,560 --> 00:37:15,360
Speaker 2: the fact that these people died working for a cetera kitchen,

671
00:37:15,680 --> 00:37:19,239
Speaker 2: And that's this paragraph that I'll pick up halfway through.

672
00:37:19,560 --> 00:37:23,319
Speaker 2: In another instance, a video of a WCK kitchen caught

673
00:37:23,360 --> 00:37:26,560
Speaker 2: in an IDF bombing was put on hold entirely. It

674
00:37:26,600 --> 00:37:28,640
Speaker 2: appears to this incident, as well as the fact that

675
00:37:28,800 --> 00:37:31,920
Speaker 2: WCK personnel were a boarder un convoy that was bombed,

676
00:37:32,360 --> 00:37:36,520
Speaker 2: have not been mentioned anywhere externally. Like, I think that's

677
00:37:36,840 --> 00:37:41,239
Speaker 2: a really crucial getting off point. You can have shit politics,

678
00:37:41,680 --> 00:37:44,400
Speaker 2: but if you're not saying stuff when your people are

679
00:37:44,440 --> 00:37:48,799
Speaker 2: getting bombed, like until they're getting killed, A, I don't

680
00:37:48,840 --> 00:37:52,520
Speaker 2: know what's wrong with you, and B if you didn't

681
00:37:52,640 --> 00:37:55,080
Speaker 2: change things, and I don't know they didn't change things, right,

682
00:37:55,120 --> 00:37:58,080
Speaker 2: that's not detailed here, but like you have to change

683
00:37:58,080 --> 00:37:59,920
Speaker 2: things if your people are being bombed, Like if I

684
00:38:00,000 --> 00:38:03,440
Speaker 2: I'm working somewhere where that's sol likelihood, you know, like

685
00:38:03,600 --> 00:38:05,920
Speaker 2: if if we get bomb once and we're lucky enough

686
00:38:05,920 --> 00:38:08,959
Speaker 2: to be okay, we do not continue doing the same shit.

687
00:38:09,080 --> 00:38:11,919
Speaker 2: And I'm not entirely sure that they did I don't

688
00:38:11,920 --> 00:38:14,040
Speaker 2: want to for a moment suggest that like this, the

689
00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,879
Speaker 2: people who died were in like complicit right, That's not

690
00:38:17,920 --> 00:38:21,080
Speaker 2: what I'm saying. It's not what you're in saying. I

691
00:38:21,160 --> 00:38:24,160
Speaker 2: very much understand the desire to go to places where

692
00:38:24,239 --> 00:38:26,759
Speaker 2: dangerous things are happening and help the people who did

693
00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:28,879
Speaker 2: nothing to deserve this, And I think the people who

694
00:38:28,880 --> 00:38:33,000
Speaker 2: did that deserve are an ending gratitude and respect. I'm

695
00:38:33,040 --> 00:38:36,560
Speaker 2: not for a minute saying that that's not true. I'm

696
00:38:36,600 --> 00:38:40,600
Speaker 2: saying that this organization needs to really think about how

697
00:38:40,600 --> 00:38:43,640
Speaker 2: it does shit if it wants to continue operating.

698
00:38:44,400 --> 00:38:47,719
Speaker 3: And yeah, the blame is on the executives of this organization.

699
00:38:48,640 --> 00:38:52,160
Speaker 3: The article also talks about how the character of w

700
00:38:52,360 --> 00:38:56,680
Speaker 3: CK's relief response to Gaza it was like revealed very

701
00:38:56,719 --> 00:39:02,000
Speaker 3: early on after October seventh, the chief communications officer, Linda Roth,

702
00:39:02,360 --> 00:39:05,160
Speaker 3: she had put out a statement without the communications team's input,

703
00:39:05,200 --> 00:39:08,320
Speaker 3: which is apparently breaking precedent, and it was about how

704
00:39:09,040 --> 00:39:11,960
Speaker 3: Hamas attacked Israel with no mention of the Palestinian lives

705
00:39:11,960 --> 00:39:14,920
Speaker 3: that were lost. And then three days later, Jose Andres

706
00:39:14,920 --> 00:39:18,520
Speaker 3: posted a video to wck's Instagram where he only makes

707
00:39:18,560 --> 00:39:21,120
Speaker 3: reference to the October seventh attack with no mention of

708
00:39:21,160 --> 00:39:24,520
Speaker 3: the climbing Palestinian death till at the time or the blockades,

709
00:39:25,160 --> 00:39:29,600
Speaker 3: and then on social media, Charles mentioned this of the episode.

710
00:39:29,800 --> 00:39:33,400
Speaker 3: On October sixteenth, he tweeted at the Spanish Prime Minister

711
00:39:33,480 --> 00:39:36,200
Speaker 3: to be removed for her protest of the Israeli tactics,

712
00:39:36,520 --> 00:39:39,080
Speaker 3: and at the same time, WCK continued to work closely

713
00:39:39,120 --> 00:39:41,719
Speaker 3: with the IDF over the course of the relief response.

714
00:39:42,480 --> 00:39:46,080
Speaker 3: The initial statement as well as Andre's video were decisions

715
00:39:46,080 --> 00:39:48,440
Speaker 3: that were made by leadership against the concerns of the

716
00:39:48,520 --> 00:39:52,200
Speaker 3: WCK personnel. There's this paragraph that I want to read

717
00:39:52,280 --> 00:39:55,400
Speaker 3: just verbatim. Much of the work in a genocide is

718
00:39:55,440 --> 00:39:58,640
Speaker 3: not pulling the trigger, but instead minimizing and denying that

719
00:39:58,680 --> 00:40:02,160
Speaker 3: a genocide is going on. Genocide is a phenomenon of

720
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:06,000
Speaker 3: gradual boundary pushing. Each increment must be accepted by the

721
00:40:06,040 --> 00:40:09,279
Speaker 3: parties with agency for the next to be reached. Under

722
00:40:09,320 --> 00:40:12,720
Speaker 3: the direction of CEO Aaron Gore, Linda Roth and quote

723
00:40:12,760 --> 00:40:17,920
Speaker 3: Chief Feeding Officer Jose Andres, World Central Kitchen recklessly endangered

724
00:40:17,920 --> 00:40:21,560
Speaker 3: its personnel. Sheelflessly exploited the situation for its own benefit

725
00:40:21,680 --> 00:40:25,480
Speaker 3: and actively participated in the normalization of an ongoing genocide.

726
00:40:26,239 --> 00:40:28,960
Speaker 2: I think what I want to say more broadly here,

727
00:40:29,280 --> 00:40:32,120
Speaker 2: it's my stance. I guess maybe other people share it. Man,

728
00:40:32,160 --> 00:40:34,920
Speaker 2: they don't. This situation is not going to be solved

729
00:40:35,080 --> 00:40:37,959
Speaker 2: by NGOs, and it's certainly not going to be solved

730
00:40:37,960 --> 00:40:42,719
Speaker 2: by NGOs which have this very explicitly neoliberal political agenda. Right, Like,

731
00:40:43,480 --> 00:40:46,960
Speaker 2: at best they can plug a hole in a leaky bucket,

732
00:40:47,040 --> 00:40:49,120
Speaker 2: and it's good when they do that. Right, if one

733
00:40:49,160 --> 00:40:52,439
Speaker 2: less person starves, that's good. It doesn't mean they don't

734
00:40:52,440 --> 00:40:56,080
Speaker 2: have to be perfect to help, but they don't get

735
00:40:56,120 --> 00:40:59,640
Speaker 2: to be exemptive from criticism because they're helping, right Like, well,

736
00:40:59,680 --> 00:41:01,480
Speaker 2: Central Kitchen didn't want to help us at the border

737
00:41:01,480 --> 00:41:03,920
Speaker 2: in Hucumber. My friends reached out. They didn't want to

738
00:41:03,920 --> 00:41:07,319
Speaker 2: do that. Yeah, I don't think you should expect endios

739
00:41:07,320 --> 00:41:09,800
Speaker 2: to share your your radical politics. It doesn't mean that

740
00:41:09,840 --> 00:41:11,400
Speaker 2: they can't do harm reduction, and it doesn't mean that

741
00:41:11,400 --> 00:41:14,680
Speaker 2: when they are doing harm reduction, they sometimes need your money.

742
00:41:14,840 --> 00:41:17,480
Speaker 2: And in the such situations where this is happening, you

743
00:41:17,480 --> 00:41:19,879
Speaker 2: should give it to them if you can't help more directly, right,

744
00:41:22,000 --> 00:41:24,640
Speaker 2: But like you know, if we look at their communications,

745
00:41:25,120 --> 00:41:27,879
Speaker 2: we do see them calling for a cease fire, which

746
00:41:27,920 --> 00:41:30,239
Speaker 2: is about what you can expect from an NGO. You know,

747
00:41:30,400 --> 00:41:33,560
Speaker 2: we'd actually it appears that we see Hosse Andrews calling

748
00:41:33,600 --> 00:41:36,359
Speaker 2: for a ceasefire, and we see World Central Kitchen saying

749
00:41:36,440 --> 00:41:39,439
Speaker 2: Josse Andrews called for a ceasefire, which I don't quite

750
00:41:39,480 --> 00:41:40,880
Speaker 2: know why they don't just say we are calling for

751
00:41:40,920 --> 00:41:42,560
Speaker 2: a cease fire. They didn't sign that document with the

752
00:41:42,600 --> 00:41:44,120
Speaker 2: other endo. It's like, I don't know if they're trying

753
00:41:44,120 --> 00:41:46,799
Speaker 2: to play like have it both ways. I don't know.

754
00:41:47,280 --> 00:41:50,279
Speaker 2: I don't I'm not privy to those conversations. Right, they

755
00:41:50,320 --> 00:41:53,440
Speaker 2: didn't sort of wholeheartedly say this is the genocide but

756
00:41:53,440 --> 00:41:55,560
Speaker 2: they have to get permission for Israel to do stuff.

757
00:41:56,200 --> 00:41:58,840
Speaker 2: I mean, now they're saying it, but after the a

758
00:41:58,840 --> 00:42:01,839
Speaker 2: Trustee that happened, the whole world is watching, right, not

759
00:42:01,880 --> 00:42:03,920
Speaker 2: that the whole world shouldn't have been watching from the start.

760
00:42:04,880 --> 00:42:08,719
Speaker 2: But I don't think Enjoys are ever going to be

761
00:42:08,840 --> 00:42:10,640
Speaker 2: you know, it's radical that there's people on the internet

762
00:42:10,640 --> 00:42:12,560
Speaker 2: want them before they're also they're doing stuff and people

763
00:42:12,560 --> 00:42:15,440
Speaker 2: on the internet aren't, so you know, we have to

764
00:42:15,480 --> 00:42:18,200
Speaker 2: respect that. And I don't want any of this to

765
00:42:19,280 --> 00:42:24,799
Speaker 2: take away from the fact that some people from all

766
00:42:24,840 --> 00:42:28,360
Speaker 2: over the world, right from Europe, from Australia, from the

767
00:42:28,520 --> 00:42:33,840
Speaker 2: United States, have died feeding people who need to be fed,

768
00:42:33,880 --> 00:42:38,440
Speaker 2: because that's the most any of us can give, is

769
00:42:38,560 --> 00:42:41,960
Speaker 2: our lives, right, And so I don't for a minute

770
00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:45,759
Speaker 2: want any of this to detract from the sacrifice they made,

771
00:42:46,560 --> 00:42:49,720
Speaker 2: nor should their sacrifice be held in any higher regard

772
00:42:49,760 --> 00:42:52,080
Speaker 2: than the sacrifice made by hundreds, if not thousands of

773
00:42:52,120 --> 00:42:55,240
Speaker 2: Palestinian aid workers right, people working for the Palestinian Red Crescent,

774
00:42:56,280 --> 00:43:00,440
Speaker 2: a Palestinian even that the Palestinian people working for National

775
00:43:00,600 --> 00:43:04,680
Speaker 2: NGOs right, or the United Nations people who have been killed, right,

776
00:43:06,120 --> 00:43:09,120
Speaker 2: None of the sacrifices it should be ignored or under

777
00:43:09,120 --> 00:43:11,239
Speaker 2: mind because if people have certainly given a lot more

778
00:43:11,239 --> 00:43:13,560
Speaker 2: than I have, I don't have any right to say

779
00:43:13,600 --> 00:43:18,239
Speaker 2: that I think, yeah this or it changes communications, right.

780
00:43:18,239 --> 00:43:20,920
Speaker 2: I think they've obviously realized that there is no nicely

781
00:43:21,040 --> 00:43:23,800
Speaker 2: nicely about this, like you have to call a spade

782
00:43:23,840 --> 00:43:26,040
Speaker 2: a space when it comes to what's happening in Gaza,

783
00:43:26,400 --> 00:43:29,480
Speaker 2: which is a deliberate and targeted campt to kill civilians

784
00:43:29,600 --> 00:43:33,480
Speaker 2: thousands and tens of thousands of children even, and I

785
00:43:33,520 --> 00:43:37,560
Speaker 2: think until we move the conversation on to one where

786
00:43:37,600 --> 00:43:40,239
Speaker 2: that is being called by its name, that it's to

787
00:43:40,280 --> 00:43:43,520
Speaker 2: say genocide, then I don't think we'll see that the

788
00:43:43,560 --> 00:43:45,719
Speaker 2: reactions that we need, and I think they appear to

789
00:43:45,719 --> 00:43:47,880
Speaker 2: have reflected on that. I wish they've got there sooner,

790
00:43:48,160 --> 00:43:51,640
Speaker 2: but they're there now, and I'm sorry that it took

791
00:43:51,640 --> 00:43:55,080
Speaker 2: these people's lives to get there. But what I see

792
00:43:55,120 --> 00:43:57,239
Speaker 2: from them is what I see from other endeos. They're

793
00:43:57,239 --> 00:43:59,480
Speaker 2: not certainly not uniquely bad. In fact, they are better

794
00:43:59,520 --> 00:44:02,080
Speaker 2: than very many indios. And they were there when other

795
00:44:02,120 --> 00:44:04,680
Speaker 2: people weren't, and they're delivering food when other people weren't,

796
00:44:04,840 --> 00:44:06,160
Speaker 2: so I don't want to I don't want to distract

797
00:44:06,200 --> 00:44:11,040
Speaker 2: from that. But yeah, they're this messaging, this internal conduct,

798
00:44:11,320 --> 00:44:13,640
Speaker 2: like there's some of these internal messages they are traveling

799
00:44:13,800 --> 00:44:16,319
Speaker 2: and like it. Again, it's just what i'd expect from

800
00:44:16,320 --> 00:44:19,120
Speaker 2: any other NGO, Whereas I've seen these guys do things

801
00:44:19,160 --> 00:44:21,080
Speaker 2: in many ways sort of better than other angios, but

802
00:44:21,719 --> 00:44:25,000
Speaker 2: none if that messaging takes away from these people giving

803
00:44:25,040 --> 00:44:26,640
Speaker 2: their lives, and I don't want to suggest that.

804
00:44:27,840 --> 00:44:29,560
Speaker 3: I think the most telling thing is that they're making

805
00:44:29,560 --> 00:44:32,440
Speaker 3: the biases of their the top people that work for

806
00:44:32,480 --> 00:44:35,240
Speaker 3: this company very evident. And the article goes into Linda

807
00:44:35,320 --> 00:44:38,800
Speaker 3: Roth's background and her pro Israeli stances in the past,

808
00:44:39,280 --> 00:44:42,120
Speaker 3: and the fact that in all the outwardly facing materials

809
00:44:42,440 --> 00:44:45,560
Speaker 3: about Gaza, it was very typical to change the word

810
00:44:45,600 --> 00:44:48,719
Speaker 3: siege to conflict or to question the blockades. It talks

811
00:44:48,760 --> 00:44:52,080
Speaker 3: about how the people at the very top, their biases

812
00:44:52,160 --> 00:44:54,480
Speaker 3: just seeped through and the people that were actually working

813
00:44:54,480 --> 00:44:57,799
Speaker 3: for the organization were in disagreement with this. I think

814
00:44:57,840 --> 00:44:59,880
Speaker 3: the last thing I want to read from this art

815
00:45:00,000 --> 00:45:04,520
Speaker 3: goal just really highlights that WCK did not protect the

816
00:45:04,520 --> 00:45:08,560
Speaker 3: people that worked for them. It says, save the possibility

817
00:45:08,600 --> 00:45:12,520
Speaker 3: of genuine and competence, the WCK leadership's decisions were not

818
00:45:12,560 --> 00:45:16,359
Speaker 3: made to maintain neutrality, did not increase effectiveness, and, as

819
00:45:16,440 --> 00:45:20,880
Speaker 3: April first demonstrated, did not protect personnel. The leadership's failure

820
00:45:20,960 --> 00:45:24,640
Speaker 3: to honestly portray the dire reality in Gaza and lack

821
00:45:24,680 --> 00:45:27,399
Speaker 3: of an attempt to influence the genocide in Gaza via

822
00:45:27,440 --> 00:45:30,880
Speaker 3: its status and close ties to the Biden administration means

823
00:45:30,920 --> 00:45:34,560
Speaker 3: that they bear responsibility for its outcomes. Let no one

824
00:45:34,600 --> 00:45:38,400
Speaker 3: say they did everything they could and this is obviously

825
00:45:38,400 --> 00:45:41,920
Speaker 3: talking about the leadership versus the personnel. And then he

826
00:45:41,960 --> 00:45:44,200
Speaker 3: goes on to close the article saying that his experience

827
00:45:44,239 --> 00:45:47,280
Speaker 3: is one experience and when he resigned there was a palpable,

828
00:45:47,360 --> 00:45:51,640
Speaker 3: widespread atmosphere of disappointment among the staff and employees, and

829
00:45:51,719 --> 00:45:55,840
Speaker 3: he ends with just calling on current and former WCK employees, contractors,

830
00:45:55,840 --> 00:45:59,040
Speaker 3: and volunteers to publicly share their stories as well in

831
00:45:59,160 --> 00:46:01,640
Speaker 3: order to force account of ability and change.

832
00:46:02,360 --> 00:46:05,120
Speaker 2: Yeah, okay, if you work for a central kitchen, you

833
00:46:05,160 --> 00:46:08,880
Speaker 2: can message us hate to hear your stories that.

834
00:46:09,640 --> 00:46:13,040
Speaker 3: Yeah, yeah, we wanted to make sure that this perspective

835
00:46:13,200 --> 00:46:17,040
Speaker 3: was shared. And again the article will be in the description,

836
00:46:17,120 --> 00:46:20,160
Speaker 3: so please give it a good read. But yeah, that

837
00:46:20,440 --> 00:46:27,080
Speaker 3: is the episode. Thanks for listening, Freebol's Done.

838
00:46:29,200 --> 00:46:31,560
Speaker 1: It Could Happen here as a production of cool Zone Media.

839
00:46:31,800 --> 00:46:34,440
Speaker 1: For more podcasts from cool Zone Media, visit our website

840
00:46:34,480 --> 00:46:36,719
Speaker 1: cool zonemedia dot com or check us out on the

841
00:46:36,760 --> 00:46:40,319
Speaker 1: iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you listen to podcasts.

842
00:46:40,560 --> 00:46:42,680
Speaker 1: You can find sources for It Could Happen Here, updated

843
00:46:42,760 --> 00:46:46,800
Speaker 1: monthly at cool zonemedia dot com slash sources. Thanks for listening,