1 00:00:00,240 --> 00:00:27,760 Speaker 1: Ridiculous History is a production of I Heart Radio. Welcome 2 00:00:27,760 --> 00:00:31,200 Speaker 1: to the show, Ridiculous Historians. Thank you so much for 3 00:00:31,480 --> 00:00:35,520 Speaker 1: tuning in. We hope everybody is happy and in good 4 00:00:35,560 --> 00:00:39,320 Speaker 1: health as you hear this. Uh we have. We have 5 00:00:39,400 --> 00:00:43,840 Speaker 1: a pretty cool episode for you today. But first things first, 6 00:00:44,000 --> 00:00:47,360 Speaker 1: I'm Ben, Ben, It's still me. Noah, what day is it? 7 00:00:48,200 --> 00:00:52,000 Speaker 1: I've I've started my own calendar, which is good. Yeah, 8 00:00:52,000 --> 00:00:55,120 Speaker 1: it's gonna it's probably for a different episode, but um, 9 00:00:55,160 --> 00:00:58,920 Speaker 1: I think in pre pandemic times this was what was 10 00:00:58,960 --> 00:01:02,000 Speaker 1: called a Monday in the days of your Is it 11 00:01:02,200 --> 00:01:04,759 Speaker 1: like the ben Gorian calendar? Is that what we're gonna 12 00:01:04,800 --> 00:01:09,280 Speaker 1: call it? I just spitballing here. Well, without revealing too much. 13 00:01:09,400 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: I didn't want to name it after myself. That felt 14 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,559 Speaker 1: a little self aggrandizing. Uh So I named it after 15 00:01:15,720 --> 00:01:22,839 Speaker 1: our super producer, Casey Pegram the Pegrarian calendar. That's the one, Ben, 16 00:01:22,920 --> 00:01:25,959 Speaker 1: I'm honored. I love it and uh for for listeners 17 00:01:25,959 --> 00:01:28,480 Speaker 1: at home, for you audiophiles, Um, my voice sounds a 18 00:01:28,520 --> 00:01:32,360 Speaker 1: lot smoother this episode because I have an actual mic. Now, well, Casey, 19 00:01:32,440 --> 00:01:34,839 Speaker 1: no technology on the earth could make your voice sound 20 00:01:34,840 --> 00:01:37,360 Speaker 1: any smoother or my friend, but the audio quality is 21 00:01:37,400 --> 00:01:41,760 Speaker 1: more pristine today, So kudos for that. And it's so fascinating, Like, 22 00:01:41,800 --> 00:01:44,360 Speaker 1: that's such a great way to get in today's episode 23 00:01:44,520 --> 00:01:49,840 Speaker 1: because we are talking about technology, and we know, we 24 00:01:49,920 --> 00:01:55,240 Speaker 1: know that the pace of human evolution has been defined 25 00:01:56,160 --> 00:02:00,360 Speaker 1: many different ways, but one thing that human he is 26 00:02:00,440 --> 00:02:04,640 Speaker 1: always excelled at is the creation of technology. Where the 27 00:02:04,680 --> 00:02:09,320 Speaker 1: species that's eternally at the drawing board. Uh. We we 28 00:02:09,440 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: get a lot of stuff wrong, but we make a 29 00:02:12,360 --> 00:02:17,000 Speaker 1: lot of brave decisions, pioneering decisions. And you see, one 30 00:02:17,040 --> 00:02:19,560 Speaker 1: of the things that always fascinates me about technology I 31 00:02:19,600 --> 00:02:22,600 Speaker 1: don't know about you guys, is how much it empowers 32 00:02:22,720 --> 00:02:26,640 Speaker 1: us to go to places where humans physically wouldn't be 33 00:02:26,680 --> 00:02:28,440 Speaker 1: able to go on their own, you know, like the 34 00:02:28,520 --> 00:02:33,760 Speaker 1: wild reaches of the Arctic or the depths of the ocean. Uh. 35 00:02:33,880 --> 00:02:39,240 Speaker 1: Today we're talking about submarines. Today, we're diving into a mystery. Today, 36 00:02:39,280 --> 00:02:43,040 Speaker 1: we're diving into a very strange story from the Civil War. 37 00:02:43,120 --> 00:02:45,320 Speaker 1: But we're not doing it alone, are we know? We 38 00:02:45,360 --> 00:02:49,560 Speaker 1: sure aren't. Today we are joined by Dr Rachel Lance, 39 00:02:49,840 --> 00:02:53,600 Speaker 1: the author of In the Waves, the Story of the S. S. 40 00:02:53,720 --> 00:02:58,200 Speaker 1: Hunley Um, a Civil war who knew submarine. Thank you 41 00:02:58,200 --> 00:03:00,320 Speaker 1: so much for being with us today. I'm happy to 42 00:03:00,320 --> 00:03:06,320 Speaker 1: be your underwater tour guide. So no, I'm We're thrilled 43 00:03:06,360 --> 00:03:08,960 Speaker 1: to have you. And I'm not kidding. Maybe maybe this 44 00:03:09,000 --> 00:03:11,560 Speaker 1: is me showing my my ignorance, but I had no 45 00:03:11,639 --> 00:03:14,000 Speaker 1: idea that submarines were a thing during the Civil War, 46 00:03:14,200 --> 00:03:16,400 Speaker 1: and in doing a little research and reading your materials, 47 00:03:16,400 --> 00:03:19,160 Speaker 1: I realized it wasn't fully a thing. It was sort 48 00:03:19,160 --> 00:03:22,679 Speaker 1: of an experimental thing, very rudimentary version of what we 49 00:03:22,720 --> 00:03:26,400 Speaker 1: would now consider a submarine. Yeah, you're not the first 50 00:03:26,440 --> 00:03:29,200 Speaker 1: one to say that, so you are not alone. Um, 51 00:03:29,360 --> 00:03:32,720 Speaker 1: don't feel bad, but you are also correct in that 52 00:03:32,880 --> 00:03:36,720 Speaker 1: it's kind of like the garage band version of submarines. Uh. 53 00:03:36,800 --> 00:03:39,240 Speaker 1: The Hunley itself, which, by the way, I don't want 54 00:03:39,240 --> 00:03:42,240 Speaker 1: to start out well actually you or anything, But it 55 00:03:42,280 --> 00:03:45,760 Speaker 1: was not an ss uscl UM. It was just the 56 00:03:45,800 --> 00:03:51,440 Speaker 1: plane H L Hunley. It was not officially officially designated UM. 57 00:03:51,800 --> 00:03:55,560 Speaker 1: But yeah, the HL Hunley was built out of repurposed materials. 58 00:03:55,680 --> 00:03:58,840 Speaker 1: So this was a recycled submarine and they hammered it 59 00:03:58,920 --> 00:04:03,320 Speaker 1: out of the recycle old boiler of esteemship. Fascinating. So 60 00:04:03,520 --> 00:04:06,680 Speaker 1: now for for a quick level set for a lot 61 00:04:06,720 --> 00:04:10,000 Speaker 1: of a lot of our fellow listeners today. Uh, Let's 62 00:04:10,000 --> 00:04:14,800 Speaker 1: say most people who think of a submarine, they will 63 00:04:14,840 --> 00:04:21,200 Speaker 1: tend to think of these gargange in underwater predators, right, 64 00:04:21,400 --> 00:04:25,680 Speaker 1: often nuclear powered or diesel powered or something like that. 65 00:04:25,720 --> 00:04:28,960 Speaker 1: Could you could you tell us a little bit, Rachel 66 00:04:29,000 --> 00:04:34,839 Speaker 1: about how the Hunley came about? Uh? And what makes 67 00:04:34,839 --> 00:04:38,680 Speaker 1: it so markedly different? Dare I say a little bit 68 00:04:38,720 --> 00:04:41,520 Speaker 1: more low tech than some of the nuclear subs we 69 00:04:41,560 --> 00:04:44,560 Speaker 1: see in things like hunt for Red October? It was 70 00:04:45,000 --> 00:04:47,400 Speaker 1: I think lower tech is a very kind way to 71 00:04:47,440 --> 00:04:52,160 Speaker 1: put it, the Hunty. The Huntley was manpowered, so it 72 00:04:52,200 --> 00:04:55,280 Speaker 1: was about forty ft long, and inside there were eight 73 00:04:55,320 --> 00:04:58,360 Speaker 1: people and there was the pilot who was an officer, 74 00:04:58,400 --> 00:05:00,919 Speaker 1: so he didn't really have to do you that much. 75 00:05:01,040 --> 00:05:04,120 Speaker 1: But then the other seven members of the crew were 76 00:05:04,160 --> 00:05:06,719 Speaker 1: all stationed at a hand crank, so this thing looked 77 00:05:06,760 --> 00:05:09,200 Speaker 1: kind of like the crank shaft of a car. Each 78 00:05:09,200 --> 00:05:12,360 Speaker 1: of these handles were a little offset and together they 79 00:05:12,400 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: would just keep turning it continuously and that was connected 80 00:05:15,520 --> 00:05:18,440 Speaker 1: via some gears to the outside propeller, and that was 81 00:05:18,480 --> 00:05:21,680 Speaker 1: how this submarine moved. It was human powered submarine. So 82 00:05:21,720 --> 00:05:24,640 Speaker 1: it was essentially like a flint stone car submarine. Like 83 00:05:24,680 --> 00:05:27,960 Speaker 1: it's these guys are actually turning cranks to make the 84 00:05:28,000 --> 00:05:30,760 Speaker 1: thing go. Yeah, I think that that's actually a pretty 85 00:05:30,760 --> 00:05:32,960 Speaker 1: good description. That's I've never heard that one before, but 86 00:05:33,000 --> 00:05:35,039 Speaker 1: I might use it from now on. And just for 87 00:05:35,080 --> 00:05:37,280 Speaker 1: the record, just in my own defense, I kind of 88 00:05:37,279 --> 00:05:41,000 Speaker 1: transposed the h L, which is a person's name, um, 89 00:05:41,040 --> 00:05:43,719 Speaker 1: the person that was named after, with the SS in 90 00:05:43,800 --> 00:05:47,120 Speaker 1: my mind, So please forgive my my mistake there. But UM, 91 00:05:47,120 --> 00:05:49,120 Speaker 1: tell us a little bit about the man the Huntley 92 00:05:49,279 --> 00:05:51,960 Speaker 1: was named after, and and um maybe some of the 93 00:05:52,040 --> 00:05:55,279 Speaker 1: history of some of the tests and trials that led 94 00:05:55,320 --> 00:05:58,160 Speaker 1: to the story that we're exploring today, one of which 95 00:05:58,160 --> 00:06:02,600 Speaker 1: involved the man himself. Well, Horace Hunley was actually a lawyer, 96 00:06:02,960 --> 00:06:05,400 Speaker 1: which is not really the type of profession that you 97 00:06:05,400 --> 00:06:09,559 Speaker 1: would think naturally leads to building homemade submarines. But he 98 00:06:09,760 --> 00:06:12,680 Speaker 1: was down in Louisiana and he had his law degree, 99 00:06:12,760 --> 00:06:15,119 Speaker 1: and at one point he was working as a customs agent. 100 00:06:15,200 --> 00:06:19,480 Speaker 1: But this guy basically always had your next big idea 101 00:06:19,600 --> 00:06:23,160 Speaker 1: to get rich, and he was lucky to have an 102 00:06:23,160 --> 00:06:26,479 Speaker 1: extremely wealthy brother in law that funded a lot of 103 00:06:26,480 --> 00:06:30,960 Speaker 1: these ideas. So when when the war broke out, when 104 00:06:30,960 --> 00:06:33,839 Speaker 1: the South declared that they were going to succeed, they 105 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,200 Speaker 1: didn't really have much of a navy to speak of. 106 00:06:37,520 --> 00:06:40,440 Speaker 1: And historians will disagree on the number of ships that 107 00:06:40,480 --> 00:06:44,200 Speaker 1: they had, but it's between zero and ten. So with 108 00:06:45,040 --> 00:06:47,719 Speaker 1: zero is your lower limit. That shows you that you 109 00:06:47,839 --> 00:06:51,560 Speaker 1: kind of need more ships. So Horace Hunley saw this 110 00:06:51,680 --> 00:06:56,040 Speaker 1: as another money making opportunity and he wanted to become 111 00:06:56,080 --> 00:07:00,000 Speaker 1: what's called a private here, so he started building submarine 112 00:07:00,120 --> 00:07:03,480 Speaker 1: with two other men, Baxtor Watson and James McClintock. And 113 00:07:03,560 --> 00:07:06,400 Speaker 1: those two were real engineers. Like these guys worked out 114 00:07:06,440 --> 00:07:09,200 Speaker 1: of a machine shop and they worked frequently at a foundry, 115 00:07:09,200 --> 00:07:12,400 Speaker 1: and they knew how to put together an actual product. 116 00:07:12,960 --> 00:07:15,840 Speaker 1: And together the three of them raised all these funds 117 00:07:15,840 --> 00:07:19,000 Speaker 1: and started building prototypes. The first one they need was 118 00:07:19,040 --> 00:07:22,600 Speaker 1: the CSS Pioneer, and that one actually was like officially 119 00:07:22,880 --> 00:07:25,760 Speaker 1: made a Confederate ship and everything, so now you can 120 00:07:25,800 --> 00:07:31,400 Speaker 1: call it whatever you please. But that one, as the 121 00:07:31,520 --> 00:07:35,480 Speaker 1: Union kind of closed in and New Orleans, they ended 122 00:07:35,560 --> 00:07:37,840 Speaker 1: up having to sink it intentionally. They didn't want it 123 00:07:37,880 --> 00:07:41,200 Speaker 1: to fall into Union hands, and so they sunk it 124 00:07:41,280 --> 00:07:44,080 Speaker 1: in Lake Pontra train Um, which is right next to 125 00:07:44,120 --> 00:07:47,280 Speaker 1: New Orleans, Louisiana. After that, everyone kind of packed up 126 00:07:47,320 --> 00:07:50,520 Speaker 1: and fled. They went to Mobile, Alabama, which was still 127 00:07:51,040 --> 00:07:54,200 Speaker 1: sitting under Confederate control, and they started building again. So 128 00:07:54,240 --> 00:07:57,280 Speaker 1: they built a second submarine, the American Diver, and they 129 00:07:57,360 --> 00:08:00,160 Speaker 1: kind of learned from their mistakes there, but that one 130 00:08:00,280 --> 00:08:03,680 Speaker 1: sank in an unfortunate accident, and according to the records, 131 00:08:03,760 --> 00:08:06,520 Speaker 1: everyone got out safely. It's a little bit unclear, there's 132 00:08:06,520 --> 00:08:09,480 Speaker 1: not a huge amount of detail, but either way, that 133 00:08:09,880 --> 00:08:13,760 Speaker 1: submarine was now in the bottom of Mobile Bay under 134 00:08:13,800 --> 00:08:17,000 Speaker 1: some mud. It was no longer going to help with 135 00:08:17,080 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: the war effort. After that, they started building on what 136 00:08:20,200 --> 00:08:22,320 Speaker 1: is thought to be their third submarine. That one would 137 00:08:22,360 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: eventually become the hil Henley. At the time, they called 138 00:08:25,240 --> 00:08:29,840 Speaker 1: it just simply fish boat now, which I love that name. 139 00:08:29,880 --> 00:08:32,560 Speaker 1: I think that's are also. I think maybe the porpoise 140 00:08:32,720 --> 00:08:36,080 Speaker 1: was a thing as well, or the fish torpedo boat. 141 00:08:36,120 --> 00:08:38,679 Speaker 1: I'm just you know, a quick glance of Wikipedia has 142 00:08:38,720 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: those as a list on the list as well. But 143 00:08:40,720 --> 00:08:42,920 Speaker 1: I think I prefer a good old fashioned fish boat, 144 00:08:43,000 --> 00:08:46,600 Speaker 1: you know, I agree. I think keep it simple, right, Yeah, 145 00:08:47,040 --> 00:08:50,360 Speaker 1: there were a couple other submarines at the time that 146 00:08:50,400 --> 00:08:52,520 Speaker 1: people were building at home and people were coming up 147 00:08:52,520 --> 00:08:55,760 Speaker 1: with their own prototypes. One of my personal favorite names 148 00:08:55,880 --> 00:08:59,079 Speaker 1: is the intelligent Whale. I think that was a great one. 149 00:08:59,600 --> 00:09:03,040 Speaker 1: That's really insulting to Wales though, honestly, I mean, you know, 150 00:09:03,120 --> 00:09:06,320 Speaker 1: come on, my sister in law began referring to herself 151 00:09:06,400 --> 00:09:11,400 Speaker 1: that way when she was pregnant with twins. Um not me, 152 00:09:11,559 --> 00:09:14,080 Speaker 1: but I was laughing when she used it on herself. 153 00:09:14,640 --> 00:09:19,160 Speaker 1: So but yeah, after that, they started building this fishboat 154 00:09:19,200 --> 00:09:22,040 Speaker 1: submarine and there's still in Alabama at this point. But 155 00:09:22,240 --> 00:09:24,880 Speaker 1: the Union just keeps closing in. It keeps knocking down 156 00:09:24,880 --> 00:09:28,000 Speaker 1: the city after city, and one of their major plans 157 00:09:28,080 --> 00:09:31,000 Speaker 1: is to take advantage of the fact that the Confederacy 158 00:09:31,120 --> 00:09:34,280 Speaker 1: really doesn't have much of a navy. So what they're 159 00:09:34,320 --> 00:09:37,520 Speaker 1: doing is they're black hating all of these major cities 160 00:09:37,559 --> 00:09:41,679 Speaker 1: where they can get supplies in and out. The Confederacy 161 00:09:41,679 --> 00:09:44,400 Speaker 1: has allies in Europe. That's who's sending them black powder 162 00:09:44,440 --> 00:09:47,400 Speaker 1: while they're getting therese kind of startup of that production ready. 163 00:09:47,520 --> 00:09:51,560 Speaker 1: It's who's sending them food to replace the food of 164 00:09:51,600 --> 00:09:55,280 Speaker 1: the farmers who are now fighting um and so block 165 00:09:55,320 --> 00:09:58,800 Speaker 1: hating these cities was a really effective strategy to just 166 00:09:59,000 --> 00:10:03,840 Speaker 1: starve them out, And eventually Charleston, South Carolina ended up 167 00:10:03,920 --> 00:10:07,960 Speaker 1: kind of being the last major Southern cities still to fall. 168 00:10:09,000 --> 00:10:12,040 Speaker 1: And there are these Union ships just line outside the harbor, 169 00:10:12,320 --> 00:10:15,680 Speaker 1: and dyve got this submarine in Alabama. They've got this 170 00:10:15,760 --> 00:10:18,559 Speaker 1: problem in Charleston. So they end up putting the submarine 171 00:10:18,679 --> 00:10:21,800 Speaker 1: on a train and shipping it over to South Carolina 172 00:10:22,720 --> 00:10:25,560 Speaker 1: and they start using it over there, and the eventual 173 00:10:25,600 --> 00:10:28,840 Speaker 1: goal is to just break the blockade. And at the time, 174 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:33,360 Speaker 1: just related to this, I believe the Confederate government was 175 00:10:33,720 --> 00:10:38,880 Speaker 1: offering what fifty thousand dollars in eighteen sixties money to 176 00:10:38,960 --> 00:10:41,959 Speaker 1: anyone who could sink a Union worship. So this is 177 00:10:42,000 --> 00:10:46,280 Speaker 1: maybe a risky investment and probably seen as a patriotic one, uh, 178 00:10:46,559 --> 00:10:51,320 Speaker 1: but it could have enormous returns. It also was, from 179 00:10:51,360 --> 00:10:55,040 Speaker 1: what I understand, it was pretty lethal even in the 180 00:10:55,120 --> 00:10:59,080 Speaker 1: testing phase. Right, didn't more than half of the initial 181 00:10:59,120 --> 00:11:02,920 Speaker 1: crew die in testing for the Hunley. Yes, So you've 182 00:11:03,000 --> 00:11:05,480 Speaker 1: hit on two kind of key points about the history 183 00:11:05,480 --> 00:11:09,520 Speaker 1: of the submarine. Is First, that's how privateers worked. Is 184 00:11:09,559 --> 00:11:13,280 Speaker 1: these were private citizens and they were using these vessels 185 00:11:13,320 --> 00:11:17,000 Speaker 1: to try to collect basically a bounty, and it was 186 00:11:17,040 --> 00:11:20,360 Speaker 1: a bit of a sliding scale, but basically the Confederacy 187 00:11:20,440 --> 00:11:24,400 Speaker 1: was offering them the price value of the Union ship 188 00:11:24,440 --> 00:11:27,920 Speaker 1: itself plus something like I'd have to fact check the 189 00:11:27,920 --> 00:11:30,760 Speaker 1: exact number, but it was a something like twenty dollars 190 00:11:30,880 --> 00:11:34,400 Speaker 1: per sailor on board. So if you had one of 191 00:11:34,440 --> 00:11:37,600 Speaker 1: their larger vessels where they had like two hundred two 192 00:11:37,960 --> 00:11:42,319 Speaker 1: fifty sailors on board, that could really contribute to the 193 00:11:42,520 --> 00:11:46,600 Speaker 1: take home prize. And that was what Hunley and his 194 00:11:46,640 --> 00:11:50,160 Speaker 1: compatriots were eventually going to do. Really quick, question, um, 195 00:11:50,480 --> 00:11:53,480 Speaker 1: he he himself actually went along for one of these 196 00:11:53,520 --> 00:11:56,040 Speaker 1: test rides. Why why would he do that? Is it 197 00:11:56,120 --> 00:11:58,560 Speaker 1: to like, you know, earn the kind of trust of 198 00:11:58,679 --> 00:12:00,559 Speaker 1: his crew, Like if he's just it's like a kind 199 00:12:00,559 --> 00:12:03,520 Speaker 1: of bloodthirsty, you know, privateer, just trying to make his catch. 200 00:12:03,520 --> 00:12:05,600 Speaker 1: Why would he put himself in harm's way? Because he 201 00:12:05,640 --> 00:12:08,880 Speaker 1: did ultimately perish in one of these, uh these you 202 00:12:08,920 --> 00:12:13,640 Speaker 1: know fatal tests that that went awry. Oh spoilers, No, 203 00:12:13,720 --> 00:12:15,680 Speaker 1: it's okay. I was about to get to that. That 204 00:12:15,760 --> 00:12:21,520 Speaker 1: was my next dance there anyway, So inside my mind yes, 205 00:12:21,720 --> 00:12:25,480 Speaker 1: So this boat had a pretty horrific trek record, and 206 00:12:25,679 --> 00:12:27,600 Speaker 1: that was known even at a time, like they're these 207 00:12:27,679 --> 00:12:31,680 Speaker 1: historical documents with these terrible quotes like um, one of 208 00:12:31,720 --> 00:12:34,720 Speaker 1: my favorites was to call it an abortion of invented 209 00:12:34,800 --> 00:12:39,280 Speaker 1: genius um. And so people were saying really disparaging things 210 00:12:39,280 --> 00:12:43,200 Speaker 1: at the time because she kept killing her crew. So 211 00:12:43,400 --> 00:12:46,640 Speaker 1: it sank once in what the modern day military would 212 00:12:46,679 --> 00:12:48,960 Speaker 1: call dog and pony show. They were basically just trying 213 00:12:49,000 --> 00:12:51,720 Speaker 1: to show off for a bunch of spectators. Um. Not 214 00:12:51,880 --> 00:12:56,360 Speaker 1: that great at controlling information flow. But several of the 215 00:12:56,400 --> 00:13:00,000 Speaker 1: crew died then. And then Horse Hunley one day, even 216 00:13:00,040 --> 00:13:02,720 Speaker 1: though he hadn't been in the boat himself for months 217 00:13:03,000 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: and he was not necessarily super well trained in it, 218 00:13:07,000 --> 00:13:11,520 Speaker 1: while the normal pilot of the boat was out of town, 219 00:13:12,160 --> 00:13:15,880 Speaker 1: he decided that he wanted to go for a drive himself, 220 00:13:16,120 --> 00:13:19,120 Speaker 1: and so he wasn't Yeah, he wasn't trying to go 221 00:13:19,160 --> 00:13:22,400 Speaker 1: on a specific mission. He was just kind of joy riding, 222 00:13:22,640 --> 00:13:26,439 Speaker 1: taking it around the maritime block, right. Yeah. I think 223 00:13:26,480 --> 00:13:28,720 Speaker 1: it might have even been in the harbor if you 224 00:13:28,760 --> 00:13:31,160 Speaker 1: look at the map. He didn't look like he was 225 00:13:31,360 --> 00:13:35,040 Speaker 1: aiming to even get out. Um. He just looked like 226 00:13:35,080 --> 00:13:38,000 Speaker 1: he was kind of joy riding in the submarine. But 227 00:13:38,720 --> 00:13:41,760 Speaker 1: he ended up driving this thing face first into the 228 00:13:41,800 --> 00:13:45,200 Speaker 1: bottom of Charleston Harbor where it got stuck and they 229 00:13:45,200 --> 00:13:48,560 Speaker 1: couldn't get it out, and he and the other seven 230 00:13:48,559 --> 00:13:51,560 Speaker 1: members of this crew is fixated inside. So Horace Henley 231 00:13:51,640 --> 00:13:53,880 Speaker 1: was found in the forward conning tower, which was the 232 00:13:53,920 --> 00:13:57,440 Speaker 1: main exit, with his right hand pushing against that door 233 00:13:57,920 --> 00:14:00,599 Speaker 1: as he's trying to bash his way out of the submarine. 234 00:14:01,000 --> 00:14:04,440 Speaker 1: And this is all before the mystery that we set 235 00:14:04,520 --> 00:14:07,120 Speaker 1: up at the top of the show. We should say 236 00:14:07,160 --> 00:14:10,680 Speaker 1: this is yeah, this is all the the checkered past 237 00:14:10,800 --> 00:14:14,640 Speaker 1: of the Huntley. So as as you may infer listeners, 238 00:14:14,880 --> 00:14:19,400 Speaker 1: when this when this sub sank, uh, this is not 239 00:14:19,440 --> 00:14:24,040 Speaker 1: where the story ends, because later now the substincts in 240 00:14:24,520 --> 00:14:28,960 Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three, right later, in eighteen sixty four, it 241 00:14:29,240 --> 00:14:32,520 Speaker 1: is resurrected. Right, it's pulled from the muck. They pulled 242 00:14:32,520 --> 00:14:35,400 Speaker 1: it out pretty quickly, actually, so each time they still 243 00:14:35,440 --> 00:14:37,040 Speaker 1: wanted to be able to use it, so they pulled 244 00:14:37,080 --> 00:14:41,000 Speaker 1: it out within at most a couple of weeks. Oh great, Yeah, 245 00:14:41,120 --> 00:14:44,000 Speaker 1: the descriptions of that are still pretty horrifying. If you 246 00:14:44,080 --> 00:14:48,040 Speaker 1: really want some nightmares because the people were trapped inside, 247 00:14:48,320 --> 00:14:52,480 Speaker 1: and so they started to decompose, but they had um 248 00:14:52,680 --> 00:14:56,680 Speaker 1: salvage divers pulled the submarine up and they forced slaves 249 00:14:56,720 --> 00:14:59,280 Speaker 1: to clean it out because this was the Confederate solf. 250 00:15:00,560 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: But then they would find a new crew each time, 251 00:15:03,240 --> 00:15:06,280 Speaker 1: and after Henley died, that's when they renamed it in 252 00:15:06,360 --> 00:15:08,840 Speaker 1: his honor. But yes, that is the start of really 253 00:15:08,840 --> 00:15:14,280 Speaker 1: the mystery part. Their final mission was February eighteen sixty 254 00:15:14,320 --> 00:15:19,000 Speaker 1: four and a whole fresh new crew um takes it 255 00:15:19,000 --> 00:15:22,880 Speaker 1: out and they are successful. So they managed to sink 256 00:15:22,960 --> 00:15:26,040 Speaker 1: one of the Union ships in the blockade, and after 257 00:15:26,080 --> 00:15:30,480 Speaker 1: that victory they disappear. What that meant was that the 258 00:15:30,560 --> 00:15:34,760 Speaker 1: people in Charleston who knew about these previous sinkings had 259 00:15:34,800 --> 00:15:38,040 Speaker 1: a very easy explanation. At the time. They assumed that 260 00:15:38,080 --> 00:15:40,600 Speaker 1: it sank the way that it had before, that everyone 261 00:15:40,640 --> 00:15:44,560 Speaker 1: inside had drowned and asphixiated exactly like they had before. 262 00:15:45,760 --> 00:15:48,280 Speaker 1: But where it got really interesting was when this boat 263 00:15:48,320 --> 00:15:51,440 Speaker 1: was raised and in two thousand they started conserving it. 264 00:15:52,240 --> 00:15:54,840 Speaker 1: As they're starting to scoop out the silt and the 265 00:15:54,920 --> 00:15:58,440 Speaker 1: crub and the you know, dead crabs and crustaceans that 266 00:15:58,480 --> 00:16:00,400 Speaker 1: have filled this thing over a hundred few years in 267 00:16:00,400 --> 00:16:03,400 Speaker 1: the ocean. They find all of the skeletons of the 268 00:16:03,400 --> 00:16:08,560 Speaker 1: crew inside, and everyone is completely free of any sign 269 00:16:08,560 --> 00:16:12,800 Speaker 1: of skeletal trauma. But they're also seated at their stations, 270 00:16:12,840 --> 00:16:15,800 Speaker 1: which means they weren't like Horse Huntley, trying to bash 271 00:16:15,840 --> 00:16:19,640 Speaker 1: their way out the conning tower. They didn't see what 272 00:16:19,800 --> 00:16:22,800 Speaker 1: killed them. They didn't see it coming, and so that 273 00:16:23,080 --> 00:16:26,240 Speaker 1: became a much more interesting problem because all of a 274 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:29,600 Speaker 1: sudden you have a new cause of death that's definitely 275 00:16:29,600 --> 00:16:37,640 Speaker 1: going to be dissimilar from the previous thinkings. Really quickly, 276 00:16:37,760 --> 00:16:39,400 Speaker 1: I want to get into a little bit about your 277 00:16:39,440 --> 00:16:42,840 Speaker 1: background and your specialization, because obviously, up to this point 278 00:16:43,200 --> 00:16:45,680 Speaker 1: you we've been interviewing you like a historian. We're talking 279 00:16:45,680 --> 00:16:47,480 Speaker 1: about all of these facts and all of the stories 280 00:16:47,480 --> 00:16:50,800 Speaker 1: that led up to this, but you're actually hardcore scientists. 281 00:16:50,840 --> 00:16:52,960 Speaker 1: For lack of a better term, I mean you your 282 00:16:53,000 --> 00:16:58,520 Speaker 1: research is um in hyperbaric medicine and environmental physiology, to 283 00:16:58,640 --> 00:17:00,720 Speaker 1: name one. I believe that is that we got your 284 00:17:00,720 --> 00:17:02,560 Speaker 1: PhD in or is that what you kind of the 285 00:17:02,560 --> 00:17:05,840 Speaker 1: research that led to you getting your PhD? Well, basically 286 00:17:05,920 --> 00:17:08,680 Speaker 1: I'm just an ocean nerd. That's kind of the how 287 00:17:08,720 --> 00:17:13,959 Speaker 1: I described myself at parties. But I really love examining 288 00:17:14,000 --> 00:17:16,800 Speaker 1: what happens to the human body underwater, and sometimes I 289 00:17:16,920 --> 00:17:20,120 Speaker 1: do like high altitude stuff as well. These extreme environments 290 00:17:20,240 --> 00:17:23,320 Speaker 1: are remarkably similar in the stress as they place on 291 00:17:23,359 --> 00:17:27,479 Speaker 1: our bodies. But yeah, anytime people are underwater, we're, like 292 00:17:27,520 --> 00:17:29,320 Speaker 1: you said at the top of the show, we're existing 293 00:17:29,320 --> 00:17:32,240 Speaker 1: in environment where we're not supposed to be, and so 294 00:17:32,520 --> 00:17:36,280 Speaker 1: interesting things start happening physiologically. You see new types of injuries, 295 00:17:36,320 --> 00:17:39,280 Speaker 1: you see new types of functions of your lungs and 296 00:17:39,320 --> 00:17:42,280 Speaker 1: of your basculature. But yeah, that is the majority of 297 00:17:42,320 --> 00:17:45,359 Speaker 1: my background is as a pretty hardcore scientist, but also 298 00:17:45,400 --> 00:17:48,800 Speaker 1: as an engineer. UM I got started working as a 299 00:17:48,880 --> 00:17:53,600 Speaker 1: mechanical engineer for the Navy building underwater breathing systems, and 300 00:17:53,680 --> 00:17:57,600 Speaker 1: from that I kind of sprang into Duke University. I 301 00:17:57,640 --> 00:17:59,920 Speaker 1: was working in a lab that specializes in blast from 302 00:18:00,119 --> 00:18:04,000 Speaker 1: and explosives. So for me, coming from the underwater world 303 00:18:04,119 --> 00:18:07,119 Speaker 1: into this lab that specializes in blast trauma and explosives, 304 00:18:07,200 --> 00:18:08,840 Speaker 1: it was a really natural fit for me to start 305 00:18:08,840 --> 00:18:12,800 Speaker 1: sending underwater explosives and and on that note, just to interject, 306 00:18:13,160 --> 00:18:15,679 Speaker 1: I believe you are not to put too fine a 307 00:18:15,720 --> 00:18:20,320 Speaker 1: point on it. Uh, the lead the leading underwater blast 308 00:18:20,400 --> 00:18:23,919 Speaker 1: trauma specialist on this continent. I I don't want to 309 00:18:23,920 --> 00:18:26,200 Speaker 1: make it too awkward bragging about you in front of you, 310 00:18:26,280 --> 00:18:29,840 Speaker 1: but that's that's what we founded our research. Here's the thing. 311 00:18:29,920 --> 00:18:34,400 Speaker 1: Then if you make yourself specific enough, eventually you are 312 00:18:34,480 --> 00:18:38,000 Speaker 1: the leading one of it. Man Bull is the leading 313 00:18:38,040 --> 00:18:41,680 Speaker 1: podcaster recording from home while wearing a gray hat. Right 314 00:18:41,720 --> 00:18:48,199 Speaker 1: now about is There's no question about that. I do 315 00:18:48,280 --> 00:18:51,960 Speaker 1: think it is important for us to emphasize that there 316 00:18:52,160 --> 00:18:55,480 Speaker 1: is a ton of science that goes into this. That's 317 00:18:55,560 --> 00:18:59,679 Speaker 1: that's one of the driving tools that this is the 318 00:18:59,720 --> 00:19:02,920 Speaker 1: only tool we can successfully use to solve mysteries like these. 319 00:19:03,440 --> 00:19:07,280 Speaker 1: But one question I have would be personal motivation. So 320 00:19:07,400 --> 00:19:09,840 Speaker 1: in two thousand, right, the sub is, as you said, 321 00:19:09,920 --> 00:19:13,680 Speaker 1: Rachel finally recovered what inspires you? Like, what was your 322 00:19:13,760 --> 00:19:17,200 Speaker 1: journey toward diving into this mystery? Did you maybe diving 323 00:19:17,240 --> 00:19:19,479 Speaker 1: in as a poor choice of words, my apologies, but 324 00:19:19,760 --> 00:19:24,480 Speaker 1: what what like did you immediately hear about it and say, 325 00:19:24,600 --> 00:19:26,840 Speaker 1: you know, like I've got to get on this, like 326 00:19:26,880 --> 00:19:30,200 Speaker 1: a law in order Doom Doom sort of theme starts 327 00:19:30,200 --> 00:19:33,600 Speaker 1: and the investigation begins or did your colleagues contact you? 328 00:19:33,640 --> 00:19:36,800 Speaker 1: What what was your journey towards this mystery. Well, in 329 00:19:36,880 --> 00:19:41,639 Speaker 1: two thousand, I had just turned sixteen, so like most 330 00:19:41,680 --> 00:19:44,280 Speaker 1: sixteen year old girls, I was fully immersed in the 331 00:19:44,280 --> 00:19:50,000 Speaker 1: world of Civil war submarines. That's definitely sarcasm. No, I 332 00:19:50,040 --> 00:19:52,040 Speaker 1: wasn't really aware of it at the time. You know, 333 00:19:52,080 --> 00:19:55,480 Speaker 1: it's a little bit more my opically focused, like a 334 00:19:55,560 --> 00:19:58,320 Speaker 1: lot of teenagers tend to be. And so I really 335 00:19:58,320 --> 00:20:00,399 Speaker 1: didn't find out about this mystery and till I was 336 00:20:00,440 --> 00:20:05,080 Speaker 1: already in graduate school working on my PhD. And it 337 00:20:05,160 --> 00:20:07,480 Speaker 1: was my advisor's idea. One of the things that he 338 00:20:07,560 --> 00:20:10,240 Speaker 1: and I share in common is we both really love history. 339 00:20:10,920 --> 00:20:14,800 Speaker 1: We both are always looking for the next kind of 340 00:20:14,840 --> 00:20:19,240 Speaker 1: historical project. Because when you work in blast and ballistic trauma, 341 00:20:19,880 --> 00:20:23,480 Speaker 1: a lot of your injuries come from more and so 342 00:20:23,600 --> 00:20:26,840 Speaker 1: that means that you are also researching history quite often, 343 00:20:26,880 --> 00:20:28,919 Speaker 1: because it's also an injury that you don't want to 344 00:20:28,920 --> 00:20:33,040 Speaker 1: inflict on people on purpose. Um So I scavenge old 345 00:20:33,080 --> 00:20:35,200 Speaker 1: case files a lot, and a lot of that involves 346 00:20:35,359 --> 00:20:38,600 Speaker 1: like tracking soldiers and tracking what happens in battles and 347 00:20:38,600 --> 00:20:41,960 Speaker 1: things like that. So this particular project came up as 348 00:20:42,000 --> 00:20:44,479 Speaker 1: I was working on a World War two project looking 349 00:20:44,520 --> 00:20:48,040 Speaker 1: at soldiers who were in the water when torpedoes went off, 350 00:20:48,960 --> 00:20:51,959 Speaker 1: and he sort of just suggested it one day and 351 00:20:51,960 --> 00:20:54,000 Speaker 1: we both thought it would be a really fun side project. 352 00:20:54,720 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: But it got quickly really out of hand. So um, 353 00:20:59,320 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: as it's pretty obvious from the books or from the 354 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: book beings spiraled wildly out of control with these experiments. 355 00:21:06,440 --> 00:21:07,880 Speaker 1: But I'm really proud of the way it turned out 356 00:21:07,960 --> 00:21:10,600 Speaker 1: me and the Huntley is pretty famous around the part 357 00:21:10,640 --> 00:21:12,920 Speaker 1: of the country where you live because it was discovered 358 00:21:12,920 --> 00:21:16,280 Speaker 1: by Clive Cussler, who is a pretty well known author, 359 00:21:16,680 --> 00:21:19,359 Speaker 1: and he wrote about it pretty extensively. But is he 360 00:21:19,640 --> 00:21:21,720 Speaker 1: was more of a fiction author, wasn't he like like 361 00:21:21,760 --> 00:21:25,120 Speaker 1: almost like a like a clancy or something like that. Right, Yes, 362 00:21:25,400 --> 00:21:29,200 Speaker 1: he definitely is a history fan himself, but his books 363 00:21:29,240 --> 00:21:32,080 Speaker 1: particularly are fiction. A lot of times they're kind of 364 00:21:32,119 --> 00:21:36,000 Speaker 1: inspired by these weird stories in true history though, so 365 00:21:36,200 --> 00:21:38,320 Speaker 1: um He's also used a lot of the proceeds from 366 00:21:38,359 --> 00:21:43,000 Speaker 1: his books to kind of go and explore the oceans. Uh. 367 00:21:43,119 --> 00:21:45,520 Speaker 1: So best was one of his projects for that. And 368 00:21:45,560 --> 00:21:48,159 Speaker 1: I should note too that there have been other people 369 00:21:48,280 --> 00:21:51,159 Speaker 1: throughout the past hundred fifty years who have claimed that 370 00:21:51,200 --> 00:21:53,760 Speaker 1: they found the Huntley, and some of them are very credible. 371 00:21:54,480 --> 00:21:57,440 Speaker 1: But once you have a name like Clive Cussler saying 372 00:21:57,480 --> 00:22:00,119 Speaker 1: it all of a sudden, the news agencies pay a 373 00:22:00,200 --> 00:22:02,720 Speaker 1: lot more attention. So that was kind of like the 374 00:22:02,880 --> 00:22:06,359 Speaker 1: really big news story was when Cleff Custler found it 375 00:22:06,400 --> 00:22:08,360 Speaker 1: and he connected it to his books and things like that. 376 00:22:08,480 --> 00:22:13,160 Speaker 1: So yeah, let's get back to our investigation here. So 377 00:22:13,680 --> 00:22:17,520 Speaker 1: you're you're looking into this and you're noticing it's a 378 00:22:17,560 --> 00:22:20,159 Speaker 1: little grim, but but it is science. You're noting that 379 00:22:20,200 --> 00:22:25,159 Speaker 1: the position of the bodies shows that there weren't people 380 00:22:25,680 --> 00:22:29,280 Speaker 1: rushing to the hatches, and this is this is a 381 00:22:29,359 --> 00:22:34,280 Speaker 1: huge clue of sorts that that that plays a role 382 00:22:34,400 --> 00:22:39,159 Speaker 1: in your hypothesis, your drive to solve the mystery of 383 00:22:39,359 --> 00:22:44,240 Speaker 1: what actually happened to the Huntley, because I believe at first, 384 00:22:44,280 --> 00:22:47,280 Speaker 1: you know, after what was it the first submarine to 385 00:22:47,359 --> 00:22:53,200 Speaker 1: successfully sink an enemy vessel? Uh, after it sank the Houstatonic, 386 00:22:53,760 --> 00:22:57,959 Speaker 1: it disappeared, as you said, people on people of the time, 387 00:22:58,119 --> 00:23:03,440 Speaker 1: contemporary experts said, well, that thing's cursed. Basically, I think 388 00:23:03,480 --> 00:23:07,920 Speaker 1: it's sank or whatever. What was your hypothesis, How did 389 00:23:07,920 --> 00:23:10,639 Speaker 1: you start putting these pieces together, what did you think 390 00:23:11,040 --> 00:23:13,280 Speaker 1: ultimately happened to the Huntley? And then how did you 391 00:23:13,359 --> 00:23:20,040 Speaker 1: test it? Well, I don't want to give away too much. Um. 392 00:23:20,119 --> 00:23:22,240 Speaker 1: The thing that really sold me on this as a 393 00:23:22,280 --> 00:23:25,520 Speaker 1: project was looking at the images of where the skeletal 394 00:23:25,520 --> 00:23:27,840 Speaker 1: remains were found. So you can find this with a 395 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,960 Speaker 1: quick Google. If you look at the color coded images 396 00:23:31,040 --> 00:23:34,240 Speaker 1: of where each crewman was positioned and seeing that they 397 00:23:34,240 --> 00:23:36,960 Speaker 1: were each at their crank station and seeing that they 398 00:23:36,960 --> 00:23:41,280 Speaker 1: had no skeleton trauma. That's a really big alarm for 399 00:23:41,320 --> 00:23:44,960 Speaker 1: a blast trauma specialist because that's actually kind of the 400 00:23:45,000 --> 00:23:49,280 Speaker 1: hallmark of a blast trauma. Everyone thinks that you're gonna 401 00:23:49,359 --> 00:23:54,320 Speaker 1: get Jesson Stetha thrown across the room. Well, he said, 402 00:23:54,359 --> 00:23:56,920 Speaker 1: how stands up. He's got smoot on his face now, 403 00:23:56,960 --> 00:23:59,520 Speaker 1: but he's still running off to finish his mission, and 404 00:24:00,080 --> 00:24:03,680 Speaker 1: that's really unrealistic. Um. I apologize for her just having 405 00:24:03,760 --> 00:24:08,359 Speaker 1: ruined every movie you'll ever watch, but that's not really 406 00:24:08,359 --> 00:24:11,399 Speaker 1: how it happens. Like to get a blast that throws someone, 407 00:24:12,000 --> 00:24:15,600 Speaker 1: it has to be quite far above the lethal range, 408 00:24:15,800 --> 00:24:18,480 Speaker 1: So if someone's being thrown by the blast, they are dead. 409 00:24:20,119 --> 00:24:22,879 Speaker 1: And that's part of why I wanted to examine the submarine. 410 00:24:22,920 --> 00:24:26,560 Speaker 1: But as a scientist, you can't just declare this is 411 00:24:26,600 --> 00:24:28,359 Speaker 1: my theory, this is all I'm going to pay attention to. 412 00:24:28,560 --> 00:24:33,200 Speaker 1: That's really bad science because you need to pay proper 413 00:24:33,240 --> 00:24:36,560 Speaker 1: attention to all of the other ideas as well, and 414 00:24:36,840 --> 00:24:40,160 Speaker 1: approach them from kind of a databased standpoint and things 415 00:24:40,200 --> 00:24:42,119 Speaker 1: like that. So that was how I started out with 416 00:24:42,160 --> 00:24:45,840 Speaker 1: the project, was actually looking at the other explanations, especially 417 00:24:45,880 --> 00:24:48,520 Speaker 1: looking at this theory that they all asphyxiated inside the 418 00:24:48,560 --> 00:24:51,560 Speaker 1: submarine hall. And I was able to eliminate that one 419 00:24:51,880 --> 00:24:55,320 Speaker 1: because they were a positioned the way they were if 420 00:24:55,359 --> 00:24:58,080 Speaker 1: you get really honest about it, it gets pretty graphic. 421 00:24:58,440 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 1: But if you look at every submarine sinking throughout history, 422 00:25:02,800 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 1: the people inside knew they were about to die, and 423 00:25:07,000 --> 00:25:10,800 Speaker 1: the way that they were found is consistent between every 424 00:25:10,840 --> 00:25:14,320 Speaker 1: single other submarine accident in history. So you look at 425 00:25:14,440 --> 00:25:17,320 Speaker 1: like that the square list to ask for the hmstidas. 426 00:25:17,520 --> 00:25:21,440 Speaker 1: All of them, people are clustered near the exits, and 427 00:25:21,480 --> 00:25:25,600 Speaker 1: they're impostures and positions that indicate that they're really suffering 428 00:25:25,760 --> 00:25:29,320 Speaker 1: and that's very unfortunate. But the reason for that is 429 00:25:29,400 --> 00:25:34,160 Speaker 1: because they're experiencing carbon dioxide. I've experienced carbon dioxide before. 430 00:25:35,000 --> 00:25:38,600 Speaker 1: It's terrible. I don't want to do it again. It 431 00:25:38,680 --> 00:25:42,760 Speaker 1: hurts you get this like splitting migraine. I mean, I 432 00:25:42,800 --> 00:25:46,080 Speaker 1: was curled up, um, curled up on the deck of 433 00:25:46,080 --> 00:25:48,520 Speaker 1: a dive boat, like please just sleep me here for 434 00:25:48,560 --> 00:25:53,240 Speaker 1: a few minutes, and it's really unpleasant. Um. And so 435 00:25:53,840 --> 00:25:58,879 Speaker 1: to suggest that people experience that and then chose to 436 00:25:58,960 --> 00:26:03,280 Speaker 1: stay where they are anyway is really consistent with human nature, 437 00:26:03,800 --> 00:26:06,679 Speaker 1: especially when you find that carbon dioxide is used by 438 00:26:06,720 --> 00:26:10,720 Speaker 1: psychiatrists to intentionally cause panic attacks. So these aren't even 439 00:26:10,720 --> 00:26:13,560 Speaker 1: people who are thinking logically anymore. This is a biologically 440 00:26:13,560 --> 00:26:16,680 Speaker 1: induced panic attack. Isn't part of the phenomenon of carbon 441 00:26:16,720 --> 00:26:19,320 Speaker 1: dioxide poisoning or for lack of a better term, like 442 00:26:19,359 --> 00:26:23,760 Speaker 1: your blood actually becomes increasingly acidic because of you know, 443 00:26:24,080 --> 00:26:27,080 Speaker 1: kind of trying to compensate for this, and that is 444 00:26:27,119 --> 00:26:29,560 Speaker 1: painful as well, Like you can experience that as a 445 00:26:29,560 --> 00:26:33,040 Speaker 1: actual sensation. Yeah, so kind of in a way. I 446 00:26:33,080 --> 00:26:36,640 Speaker 1: don't know that any person, at least me, has enough 447 00:26:36,680 --> 00:26:40,160 Speaker 1: experience to be like, oh, my blood feels acidic today, 448 00:26:40,520 --> 00:26:45,040 Speaker 1: But that's what's happening on a biological level, and your 449 00:26:45,080 --> 00:26:47,760 Speaker 1: body has coping mechanisms to try to deal with that, 450 00:26:48,280 --> 00:26:50,600 Speaker 1: and that's what you end up feeling a symptoms. So, 451 00:26:50,640 --> 00:26:54,679 Speaker 1: for example, that headache is your body expanding the blood 452 00:26:54,760 --> 00:26:57,720 Speaker 1: vessels in your brain. It's trying to offload some of 453 00:26:57,720 --> 00:27:00,119 Speaker 1: this acidity, so it's no longer reaching your brain, and 454 00:27:00,160 --> 00:27:02,560 Speaker 1: that's what we perceive as a headache. And that was 455 00:27:02,600 --> 00:27:04,199 Speaker 1: one of the clues. Again, I don't want to give 456 00:27:04,200 --> 00:27:06,160 Speaker 1: away too much either, and really quickly, I just want 457 00:27:06,200 --> 00:27:09,240 Speaker 1: to say, reading your book, um it it reads like 458 00:27:09,280 --> 00:27:12,920 Speaker 1: an adventure novel. It's really well written. It's very visceral, 459 00:27:12,960 --> 00:27:16,000 Speaker 1: and you really feel like there's a scene where you 460 00:27:16,040 --> 00:27:19,080 Speaker 1: pick up this black powder, um you know, to run 461 00:27:19,119 --> 00:27:21,919 Speaker 1: your tests and you almost get into this crazy traffic 462 00:27:21,960 --> 00:27:25,199 Speaker 1: accident and you really feel the stakes of everything that 463 00:27:25,280 --> 00:27:27,440 Speaker 1: you're doing. And the way it's written is it's lots 464 00:27:27,440 --> 00:27:29,400 Speaker 1: a lot of fun, there's a lot of science, there's 465 00:27:29,400 --> 00:27:31,800 Speaker 1: a lot of history, but it is an absolutely page 466 00:27:31,840 --> 00:27:34,280 Speaker 1: turning kind of adventure read. So I just want to 467 00:27:34,280 --> 00:27:36,600 Speaker 1: put that out there for everyone absolutely read this book. 468 00:27:36,600 --> 00:27:38,760 Speaker 1: We're certainly not going to spoil anything, but um, it's 469 00:27:38,800 --> 00:27:41,040 Speaker 1: it's a really fun read. Um, can we talk a 470 00:27:41,080 --> 00:27:44,680 Speaker 1: little bit about the clues when you started actually doing 471 00:27:44,720 --> 00:27:47,879 Speaker 1: your tests that kind of leads you to discount some 472 00:27:47,960 --> 00:27:49,680 Speaker 1: of those things, other than the fact that people weren't 473 00:27:49,680 --> 00:27:52,280 Speaker 1: piled up clawing their way out of the submarine, some 474 00:27:52,359 --> 00:27:55,480 Speaker 1: of the kind of scientific cues that you took after 475 00:27:55,520 --> 00:27:58,480 Speaker 1: you started doing these tests. So one of the scientific 476 00:27:58,560 --> 00:28:03,280 Speaker 1: clues to me that wasn't extremely conclusive, but that was 477 00:28:03,400 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: sort of a hint and a wink and a point 478 00:28:05,680 --> 00:28:10,000 Speaker 1: in the right direction, was that when these crew members 479 00:28:10,000 --> 00:28:13,720 Speaker 1: were recovered, a lot of them still had intact brains 480 00:28:13,800 --> 00:28:18,480 Speaker 1: inside their skulls. And that's interesting for several reasons. First 481 00:28:18,520 --> 00:28:20,959 Speaker 1: of all, the discovery that the human brain can survive 482 00:28:20,960 --> 00:28:25,080 Speaker 1: for a hundred fIF years in salt water, But from 483 00:28:25,080 --> 00:28:28,840 Speaker 1: a biological perspective, a lot of their brains had these 484 00:28:28,920 --> 00:28:32,280 Speaker 1: kind of diffuse patterns and stains that were just on 485 00:28:32,320 --> 00:28:37,000 Speaker 1: the surface. And really, because again we don't have a 486 00:28:37,040 --> 00:28:39,400 Speaker 1: ton of examples of people staying underwater for that long, 487 00:28:39,960 --> 00:28:43,040 Speaker 1: there are multiple possible things that could explain that. But 488 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,400 Speaker 1: what's also important to know from my perspective is that's 489 00:28:47,440 --> 00:28:51,520 Speaker 1: what blast trauma looks like. So once again, that's how 490 00:28:51,560 --> 00:28:54,640 Speaker 1: a brain injury from blast appears, especially one that's in 491 00:28:54,680 --> 00:28:58,080 Speaker 1: the fatal ranges. You end up having what's called a hematoma, 492 00:28:58,160 --> 00:29:02,280 Speaker 1: which is that big breading of bloods somewhere on the brain, 493 00:29:02,320 --> 00:29:04,440 Speaker 1: and it can appear in any location on the brain, 494 00:29:04,520 --> 00:29:07,400 Speaker 1: but it only appears really on the surface, and the 495 00:29:07,560 --> 00:29:10,880 Speaker 1: brain itself isn't disrupted. The brain looks completely intact. It 496 00:29:10,960 --> 00:29:13,480 Speaker 1: kind of just looks like this paint splotch has appeared. 497 00:29:14,080 --> 00:29:17,280 Speaker 1: So for me when I read about that finding, again, 498 00:29:17,440 --> 00:29:20,480 Speaker 1: you can't really eliminate all the other possibilities just because 499 00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:22,640 Speaker 1: we don't have a lot of examples of brains in 500 00:29:22,680 --> 00:29:25,840 Speaker 1: that state. But it's another kind of hint and wink 501 00:29:26,160 --> 00:29:29,480 Speaker 1: and suggestion that we might be dealing with the blast 502 00:29:29,480 --> 00:29:38,960 Speaker 1: trauma here. So picking back up on the idea of 503 00:29:39,560 --> 00:29:43,280 Speaker 1: black powder, which which I believe we mentioned just briefly there, 504 00:29:43,840 --> 00:29:48,000 Speaker 1: one thing that I found fascinating about in the waves 505 00:29:48,440 --> 00:29:51,360 Speaker 1: was that there was a lot of science going into 506 00:29:51,400 --> 00:29:55,320 Speaker 1: black powder that I wasn't I wasn't familiar with. Like, 507 00:29:55,720 --> 00:29:58,880 Speaker 1: you know, I've never built a civil war sub I've 508 00:29:58,920 --> 00:30:03,440 Speaker 1: never even built a regular torpedo or underwater explosive much 509 00:30:03,560 --> 00:30:06,640 Speaker 1: less you know, like loaded a gun with powder. So 510 00:30:06,920 --> 00:30:10,000 Speaker 1: how do you even test that? Like? How what? It's 511 00:30:10,040 --> 00:30:12,760 Speaker 1: just such a strange concept to me because it seems 512 00:30:12,800 --> 00:30:19,240 Speaker 1: like such a uh an archaic means of propellant or blasting. 513 00:30:19,880 --> 00:30:22,880 Speaker 1: What was it like when you were thinking, Okay, how 514 00:30:22,880 --> 00:30:25,200 Speaker 1: do we figure out the role of black powder? And 515 00:30:25,240 --> 00:30:28,920 Speaker 1: what is is black powder just gunpowder? Um? It depends. 516 00:30:29,000 --> 00:30:31,440 Speaker 1: The word gunpowder can mean a couple different things. Black 517 00:30:31,440 --> 00:30:35,960 Speaker 1: powder is the more specific. Sometimes when people say gunpowder 518 00:30:36,000 --> 00:30:39,840 Speaker 1: they mean smokeless powder also, which has different blast characteristics. 519 00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,640 Speaker 1: I won't go into that because I like you guys, um, 520 00:30:44,080 --> 00:30:48,200 Speaker 1: but black powder is like a very specific mixture. And yeah, 521 00:30:48,320 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: there was a lot more involved in the finer points 522 00:30:52,160 --> 00:30:54,680 Speaker 1: of black powder that I had anticipated when I started 523 00:30:54,680 --> 00:30:56,960 Speaker 1: the project as well. But one of the things that's 524 00:30:56,960 --> 00:30:59,160 Speaker 1: really important and looking at blast fraumas is looking at 525 00:30:59,160 --> 00:31:02,840 Speaker 1: your explosive making sure that you know that, um, people 526 00:31:02,920 --> 00:31:06,800 Speaker 1: are getting blessed in the correct way for that problem. 527 00:31:06,880 --> 00:31:08,680 Speaker 1: And just a little we kind of dived right into 528 00:31:08,680 --> 00:31:11,640 Speaker 1: black powder. But just to really really be clear, this 529 00:31:11,800 --> 00:31:18,320 Speaker 1: quote unquote torpedo is propelled by this very archaic, very finicky, 530 00:31:18,400 --> 00:31:22,160 Speaker 1: dangerous material that you actually transported in the trunk of 531 00:31:22,160 --> 00:31:25,320 Speaker 1: your Subaru or something or pontiac. I think it was right. 532 00:31:25,480 --> 00:31:27,600 Speaker 1: It was a Pontiac. I'm a Detroit girl. I do 533 00:31:27,600 --> 00:31:33,160 Speaker 1: have American power. Um. Yes, so I was transporting black 534 00:31:33,160 --> 00:31:35,560 Speaker 1: powder and what I was doing was completely legal. I 535 00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,440 Speaker 1: feel like that's important for me to throw out there. 536 00:31:38,600 --> 00:31:41,640 Speaker 1: But yeah, the thing with black powder is if you 537 00:31:41,840 --> 00:31:46,000 Speaker 1: hit it and the heat generated from impact can cause 538 00:31:46,040 --> 00:31:49,040 Speaker 1: it to go off. And so me being in a 539 00:31:49,120 --> 00:31:53,120 Speaker 1: Pontiac on the highway where two cars in front of 540 00:31:53,160 --> 00:31:56,480 Speaker 1: me just crashed into each other randomly, and there was 541 00:31:56,520 --> 00:32:00,160 Speaker 1: a massive truck really aggressively tailgating me was a kind 542 00:32:00,160 --> 00:32:03,560 Speaker 1: of terrifying moment in the experiment. But thankfully as an 543 00:32:03,560 --> 00:32:06,360 Speaker 1: injury and trauma specialist, I am an O c D 544 00:32:06,560 --> 00:32:10,640 Speaker 1: safety minded driver, and so I had a little bit 545 00:32:10,680 --> 00:32:14,600 Speaker 1: extra following distance knowing what was in my trunk. But um, yeah, 546 00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:17,240 Speaker 1: that guy behind me, who was clearly texting, should have 547 00:32:17,280 --> 00:32:19,840 Speaker 1: been a lot more aware because he had no idea 548 00:32:19,920 --> 00:32:23,520 Speaker 1: what he was when he was so close too with 549 00:32:23,600 --> 00:32:27,240 Speaker 1: his grill. Yeah, but um, dealing with black powder is 550 00:32:27,400 --> 00:32:30,200 Speaker 1: a difficult adventure and I hope to never ever do 551 00:32:30,240 --> 00:32:34,800 Speaker 1: it again. It's extremely finicky. So first off, as a 552 00:32:34,800 --> 00:32:37,800 Speaker 1: fellow defensive driver, I very much appreciate the point you're 553 00:32:37,840 --> 00:32:42,920 Speaker 1: making about vehicular safety. So but we should have phsized 554 00:32:42,960 --> 00:32:49,240 Speaker 1: too that you weren't trying to intentionally explode something on 555 00:32:49,280 --> 00:32:53,760 Speaker 1: another vehicle. Uh h. L Huntley was one of the 556 00:32:53,880 --> 00:32:59,920 Speaker 1: things that fascinated me in in the waves was figure 557 00:33:00,200 --> 00:33:05,600 Speaker 1: out how this torpedo technology would work. I was I 558 00:33:05,640 --> 00:33:09,960 Speaker 1: was surprised to find out that it was. Um, I'm 559 00:33:10,000 --> 00:33:12,880 Speaker 1: gonna say the word they kept coming to mind when 560 00:33:12,920 --> 00:33:16,640 Speaker 1: I was reading about the setup was precarious. It was 561 00:33:16,720 --> 00:33:20,600 Speaker 1: like dicey. Honestly, it was like why would you why 562 00:33:20,600 --> 00:33:22,640 Speaker 1: would you get in that sub? But how did they 563 00:33:22,760 --> 00:33:25,640 Speaker 1: make a torpedo and attach it? Well, they had these 564 00:33:25,640 --> 00:33:28,880 Speaker 1: two brothers called the Rains Brothers, and there's some of 565 00:33:28,880 --> 00:33:31,760 Speaker 1: my favorite characters in history because together I think they're 566 00:33:31,760 --> 00:33:36,280 Speaker 1: really responsible for all the black powder and entire Confederacy. Um. So, 567 00:33:36,520 --> 00:33:40,320 Speaker 1: one of them started a black powder mill for the 568 00:33:40,320 --> 00:33:44,160 Speaker 1: Confederacy using a pamphlet and no other previous knowledge, and 569 00:33:44,280 --> 00:33:48,320 Speaker 1: the other one invented land mines and built all of 570 00:33:48,360 --> 00:33:51,960 Speaker 1: the mines and torpedoes for the South. So it's important 571 00:33:52,000 --> 00:33:54,720 Speaker 1: to note here also that the word torpedo at this 572 00:33:54,840 --> 00:33:57,920 Speaker 1: time in history means something different. It means more of 573 00:33:57,960 --> 00:34:01,120 Speaker 1: a mine or stationary bomb, so it's not being propelled 574 00:34:01,120 --> 00:34:03,960 Speaker 1: on its own. But I think that the case of 575 00:34:03,960 --> 00:34:08,680 Speaker 1: the Hunley really emphasized why that technology would be useful. 576 00:34:09,080 --> 00:34:12,600 Speaker 1: Because you have the Ugel Hunley in eighteen sixty four, 577 00:34:12,880 --> 00:34:17,400 Speaker 1: it sets office torpedo nobody comes home alive. Eighteen seventies, 578 00:34:17,440 --> 00:34:20,320 Speaker 1: people are already working on torpedo designs that can propel 579 00:34:20,400 --> 00:34:23,960 Speaker 1: themselves through the water. So it's pretty immediately apparent that 580 00:34:24,040 --> 00:34:26,680 Speaker 1: not only is this useful technology, but we don't want 581 00:34:26,680 --> 00:34:29,480 Speaker 1: to be near it when it goes off. Um. So 582 00:34:29,520 --> 00:34:32,840 Speaker 1: that was a really major impact on warfare within ten years, 583 00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:35,520 Speaker 1: which is unusual. So to that point, like you know, 584 00:34:35,600 --> 00:34:39,279 Speaker 1: the difference of the concept of a torpedo, how were 585 00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:44,359 Speaker 1: they able to actually successfully destroy this Union ship? Like 586 00:34:44,400 --> 00:34:47,000 Speaker 1: I mean, is it a slow thing where they deploy 587 00:34:47,080 --> 00:34:48,799 Speaker 1: it and then kind of try to get away and 588 00:34:48,920 --> 00:34:50,719 Speaker 1: there's a fuse on it, or can we just talk 589 00:34:50,719 --> 00:34:52,799 Speaker 1: a little bit about the mechanics of how this thing 590 00:34:52,840 --> 00:34:57,480 Speaker 1: would actually you know, be at any level precise. I mean, 591 00:34:57,480 --> 00:34:59,759 Speaker 1: obviously it wasn't precise. That's a total misnumber. But there 592 00:34:59,760 --> 00:35:02,320 Speaker 1: had be some level of control to it, otherwise it 593 00:35:02,360 --> 00:35:04,759 Speaker 1: would just blow up, you know, inside the submarine and 594 00:35:04,840 --> 00:35:08,080 Speaker 1: kill everybody every time. I think they had a surprising 595 00:35:08,120 --> 00:35:10,560 Speaker 1: amount of control over it and also no control at 596 00:35:10,600 --> 00:35:13,759 Speaker 1: the same time. The way that this thing worked, it 597 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:17,279 Speaker 1: was attached to a spar on the bow of the submarine, 598 00:35:17,360 --> 00:35:19,919 Speaker 1: so it is outside the submarine, but it's still only 599 00:35:20,000 --> 00:35:22,239 Speaker 1: sixteen ft away because that's the length of their spar. 600 00:35:22,840 --> 00:35:25,880 Speaker 1: And then their torpedo had a pressure trigger, so what 601 00:35:25,960 --> 00:35:28,799 Speaker 1: they had to do was hand cranked their submarine all 602 00:35:28,840 --> 00:35:30,960 Speaker 1: the way up to the enemy ship, which is more 603 00:35:31,000 --> 00:35:33,640 Speaker 1: courageous than it sounds, because they are being shot at 604 00:35:33,680 --> 00:35:37,520 Speaker 1: while this happens, and jabbed the Union ship in the 605 00:35:37,560 --> 00:35:41,000 Speaker 1: side of the hole with the pressure trigger on the torpedo. 606 00:35:41,800 --> 00:35:44,719 Speaker 1: And we know that that successfully occurred because when the 607 00:35:44,760 --> 00:35:48,719 Speaker 1: submarine and the spar were recovered, the little shards of 608 00:35:48,719 --> 00:35:52,360 Speaker 1: that torpedo were still attached, so it was peeled backwards 609 00:35:52,400 --> 00:35:55,520 Speaker 1: over the end of the spar like a daffy duck cigar. 610 00:35:56,280 --> 00:35:59,279 Speaker 1: And then it was just cartoonish and clearly evident that 611 00:35:59,400 --> 00:36:01,680 Speaker 1: it was still a hatched and only sixteen feet away, 612 00:36:02,200 --> 00:36:05,280 Speaker 1: which was really key to setting up an accurate science 613 00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:08,480 Speaker 1: experiment to figure out what happened. And again, I, you know, 614 00:36:08,520 --> 00:36:12,120 Speaker 1: and I really don't want to spoil anything, um, but 615 00:36:12,239 --> 00:36:14,600 Speaker 1: we have to talk a little bit about some of 616 00:36:14,600 --> 00:36:17,000 Speaker 1: these simulations you ran. At the very least, we have 617 00:36:17,120 --> 00:36:20,920 Speaker 1: to talk about Tiny. Yeah, tell us a little bit 618 00:36:20,960 --> 00:36:23,480 Speaker 1: about a little bit about Tiny, and then we're gonna 619 00:36:23,640 --> 00:36:25,920 Speaker 1: we're gonna let our listeners find out the rest of 620 00:36:25,960 --> 00:36:27,840 Speaker 1: the story by getting your book. But we have to 621 00:36:27,880 --> 00:36:29,839 Speaker 1: dig into Tiny a little bit because it's just it's 622 00:36:29,880 --> 00:36:32,920 Speaker 1: too delightful not to discuss. People really like that I 623 00:36:33,040 --> 00:36:37,240 Speaker 1: named the boat the Tiny. Sometimes when you're a lab 624 00:36:37,440 --> 00:36:40,040 Speaker 1: at three o'clock in the morning and you have some 625 00:36:40,120 --> 00:36:45,600 Speaker 1: spray paint, you make choices, so that that's how it 626 00:36:45,680 --> 00:36:49,319 Speaker 1: got its moniker. But um, that was actually one of 627 00:36:49,360 --> 00:36:51,040 Speaker 1: the things that I wanted to make sure I included 628 00:36:51,080 --> 00:36:53,560 Speaker 1: in this book is because I think a lot of 629 00:36:53,600 --> 00:36:56,080 Speaker 1: times when you read about the results of science, you 630 00:36:56,120 --> 00:36:58,960 Speaker 1: get like a paragraph or at best in news article 631 00:36:59,080 --> 00:37:03,080 Speaker 1: that condenses down years and years of research. For me, 632 00:37:03,160 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: this was three years of working average sixty to eighty 633 00:37:07,040 --> 00:37:10,960 Speaker 1: hours a week, and so life happens along the way too. 634 00:37:11,719 --> 00:37:15,040 Speaker 1: And that's what I think is kind of interesting. Right now, 635 00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:17,960 Speaker 1: we're dealing obviously, with this virus outbreak, and we've got 636 00:37:18,000 --> 00:37:21,200 Speaker 1: people working really hard on different solutions and different vaccines. 637 00:37:21,760 --> 00:37:25,960 Speaker 1: And I've never read another book where they take you 638 00:37:26,480 --> 00:37:30,319 Speaker 1: through a scientific project and explain what that's actually like 639 00:37:30,520 --> 00:37:34,600 Speaker 1: to be a scientist, to be a human being, you know, 640 00:37:34,680 --> 00:37:37,839 Speaker 1: to almost get into car accident, to have your grandma die, 641 00:37:38,000 --> 00:37:42,399 Speaker 1: like to get proposed to all while you're trying to 642 00:37:42,480 --> 00:37:45,960 Speaker 1: plow through this experiment that is either important to you, 643 00:37:46,160 --> 00:37:48,000 Speaker 1: like in my case, or is important to the world, 644 00:37:48,080 --> 00:37:51,000 Speaker 1: like what these vaccine researchers are doing right now. Um. 645 00:37:51,040 --> 00:37:54,239 Speaker 1: So I'm just hopeful that as people read this, they 646 00:37:54,320 --> 00:37:57,800 Speaker 1: kind of understand a little bit better what goes into 647 00:37:57,840 --> 00:38:01,480 Speaker 1: all of those news clips and how much real humanity 648 00:38:01,640 --> 00:38:05,040 Speaker 1: is behind those stories, how this science sausage gets made. 649 00:38:05,160 --> 00:38:08,000 Speaker 1: In other words, I think that's instructive too, and it's 650 00:38:08,040 --> 00:38:11,920 Speaker 1: inspiring for a lot of the listeners in our audience. 651 00:38:12,239 --> 00:38:14,040 Speaker 1: We have a you know, we have a lot of 652 00:38:14,080 --> 00:38:17,719 Speaker 1: younger kids who listen to the show who are actively 653 00:38:17,800 --> 00:38:22,799 Speaker 1: interested in pursuing stem and you know, humanizing that and 654 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:27,759 Speaker 1: making making sure that we all realize that the scientists 655 00:38:27,840 --> 00:38:30,760 Speaker 1: you read about in a newsclip are themselves human beings 656 00:38:30,800 --> 00:38:34,160 Speaker 1: and people. I think is a powerful thing and it's 657 00:38:34,200 --> 00:38:37,640 Speaker 1: something that um, it's something that I personally am very 658 00:38:37,680 --> 00:38:41,080 Speaker 1: appreciative of. And you know, it's funny like the we 659 00:38:41,360 --> 00:38:44,279 Speaker 1: I set this up with asking you about tiny, which 660 00:38:44,320 --> 00:38:47,480 Speaker 1: was the sort of the um miniaturized version of the 661 00:38:47,520 --> 00:38:50,520 Speaker 1: huntly that you created, and in a blast of creativity 662 00:38:50,600 --> 00:38:54,279 Speaker 1: and inspiration and maybe sleeplessness, UM three am, you named 663 00:38:54,280 --> 00:38:56,400 Speaker 1: it tiny. But that's just the kind of little nugget 664 00:38:56,400 --> 00:38:58,240 Speaker 1: that publishers love and they'll put in like a press 665 00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:00,040 Speaker 1: kit for a book or that you can see in 666 00:39:00,080 --> 00:39:02,640 Speaker 1: a headline or like really grab onto. But that was 667 00:39:02,719 --> 00:39:05,759 Speaker 1: just one little detail that is kind of fun to 668 00:39:05,800 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: talk about, but it represents so much effort and work 669 00:39:09,719 --> 00:39:12,239 Speaker 1: that you put into not only the research, but then 670 00:39:12,280 --> 00:39:16,719 Speaker 1: designing the experiment, um, creating a scale version of this 671 00:39:16,880 --> 00:39:20,320 Speaker 1: scenario and running tests over and over and over again, 672 00:39:20,640 --> 00:39:23,480 Speaker 1: and then that data became like gold to you, or 673 00:39:23,480 --> 00:39:25,800 Speaker 1: you talk about in the book how you immediately backed 674 00:39:25,840 --> 00:39:28,480 Speaker 1: it up in like triplicate UM. So it really is 675 00:39:28,560 --> 00:39:31,360 Speaker 1: so much that goes into creating this, this math and 676 00:39:31,400 --> 00:39:34,640 Speaker 1: this data that then can help you tell a story much, 677 00:39:34,880 --> 00:39:37,719 Speaker 1: you know, much larger than just a headline or like 678 00:39:37,760 --> 00:39:41,040 Speaker 1: a sound bite. Yeah, thank you. I think people often 679 00:39:41,040 --> 00:39:43,320 Speaker 1: repeat the Thomas Edison quote and I forget the exact 680 00:39:43,400 --> 00:39:45,480 Speaker 1: number he used, so you have to forgive my fudging it. 681 00:39:45,560 --> 00:39:49,080 Speaker 1: But he said something like he didn't fail nine d 682 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,000 Speaker 1: or whatever number heat of times he used to make 683 00:39:52,040 --> 00:39:54,680 Speaker 1: a light bulb. He learned nine hundred ways not to 684 00:39:54,719 --> 00:39:57,840 Speaker 1: make a light bulb. But people don't think about the 685 00:39:57,880 --> 00:40:01,520 Speaker 1: fact that that took years, so he failed for years. 686 00:40:02,120 --> 00:40:05,440 Speaker 1: So even our most brilliant scientists and inventors are human 687 00:40:05,480 --> 00:40:08,600 Speaker 1: beings with flaws, and anyone can do this stuff. It's 688 00:40:08,640 --> 00:40:12,400 Speaker 1: just all about perseverance. And with that we want to 689 00:40:12,440 --> 00:40:15,920 Speaker 1: be cautious about spoilers. You, like us, will have to 690 00:40:16,000 --> 00:40:18,640 Speaker 1: check out the book to learn the rest of the story, 691 00:40:19,080 --> 00:40:21,400 Speaker 1: and take my word for it. You won't regret it. 692 00:40:21,760 --> 00:40:24,560 Speaker 1: The book is in the Waves by Quest to solve 693 00:40:24,640 --> 00:40:28,319 Speaker 1: the mystery of a Civil War submarine. By the time 694 00:40:28,360 --> 00:40:31,640 Speaker 1: you're hearing this, the book will be available wherever you 695 00:40:31,760 --> 00:40:36,400 Speaker 1: find your favorite uh, your favorite nonfiction, your favorite solving 696 00:40:36,440 --> 00:40:40,600 Speaker 1: of historical mysteries. Rachel, thank you so much for joining 697 00:40:40,719 --> 00:40:43,800 Speaker 1: us on the air today. This has been an absolute pleasure, 698 00:40:43,920 --> 00:40:46,000 Speaker 1: and I've got to say this is one of the 699 00:40:46,040 --> 00:40:51,000 Speaker 1: episodes that sent me off to read more and more 700 00:40:51,080 --> 00:40:55,480 Speaker 1: on my own about submarines just for my own personal edification. 701 00:40:55,680 --> 00:40:58,879 Speaker 1: So uh so I owe you a personal thank you. 702 00:40:59,040 --> 00:41:01,120 Speaker 1: Oh well, you're welcome many time I can hook someone 703 00:41:01,120 --> 00:41:03,359 Speaker 1: else on submarines, I'm happy to do so. And can 704 00:41:03,400 --> 00:41:07,080 Speaker 1: you tell listeners where to find you many social media 705 00:41:07,160 --> 00:41:10,640 Speaker 1: stuff for any other places where you uh maybe post um, 706 00:41:10,680 --> 00:41:13,719 Speaker 1: you know, the stuff that you're working on currently. I 707 00:41:13,920 --> 00:41:17,839 Speaker 1: am on Twitter, I'm at Underwater Lance and they can 708 00:41:17,880 --> 00:41:20,440 Speaker 1: also find me through my website which is Rachel and 709 00:41:20,520 --> 00:41:23,640 Speaker 1: Lance Rights dot com. So they all have updates and 710 00:41:23,680 --> 00:41:27,080 Speaker 1: announcements and things like that. Fantastic. Well, thanks so much 711 00:41:27,120 --> 00:41:29,919 Speaker 1: again for joining us. Huge thanks as always to super 712 00:41:29,920 --> 00:41:33,520 Speaker 1: producer Casey Pegram, Alex Williams, who composed our theme, our 713 00:41:33,560 --> 00:41:36,960 Speaker 1: dear friend Christopher Haciotas, who is of course here in spirit. 714 00:41:37,200 --> 00:41:41,160 Speaker 1: Thanks of course as always to Jonathan Strickland, a k a. 715 00:41:41,320 --> 00:41:43,920 Speaker 1: The Quister, who's been saying some really nice things to 716 00:41:43,960 --> 00:41:47,680 Speaker 1: me post quarantine. Rachel, that's a guy who makes a 717 00:41:47,719 --> 00:41:50,360 Speaker 1: cameo on It's it's tough to explain, don't worry about it. 718 00:41:50,600 --> 00:41:54,480 Speaker 1: He's a nice guy. Ben Well, he's sort of our 719 00:41:54,520 --> 00:41:56,920 Speaker 1: nemesis is the thing, but it's sort of a soft 720 00:41:56,960 --> 00:41:59,279 Speaker 1: Cold War kind of nemeses. But I will say this, 721 00:41:59,520 --> 00:42:03,960 Speaker 1: he has been rocking the steampunk um outbreak gear and 722 00:42:04,040 --> 00:42:06,200 Speaker 1: I am here for it. He's got this like kind 723 00:42:06,200 --> 00:42:09,279 Speaker 1: of bandana and these goggles and like a cowboy hat. 724 00:42:09,400 --> 00:42:12,799 Speaker 1: Situation is sort of a West World meets um, you know, 725 00:42:13,239 --> 00:42:15,799 Speaker 1: a Kira kind of steam Boy kind of situation. I'm 726 00:42:15,800 --> 00:42:18,520 Speaker 1: all about it. But thanks Jonathan for being a pal 727 00:42:18,600 --> 00:42:22,439 Speaker 1: and also for ruining our lives sometimes. And thanks again 728 00:42:22,480 --> 00:42:25,160 Speaker 1: to you Rachel, Thanks to everyone who is tuning in. 729 00:42:25,239 --> 00:42:27,440 Speaker 1: As I said at the top, we hope this message 730 00:42:27,440 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: finds you happy, healthy and safe. I just followed at 731 00:42:30,640 --> 00:42:33,840 Speaker 1: underwater Lance on Twitter. Uh, so I can dig it 732 00:42:33,920 --> 00:42:37,359 Speaker 1: to morse up news. Uh and well, we hope that 733 00:42:37,520 --> 00:42:41,000 Speaker 1: we hope that you will share some of your favorite 734 00:42:41,040 --> 00:42:46,080 Speaker 1: strange stories or historical mysteries of your that have yet 735 00:42:46,120 --> 00:42:48,960 Speaker 1: to be solved or recently solved. Let us know you 736 00:42:48,960 --> 00:42:52,000 Speaker 1: can find us all over the internet where on Facebook, Instagram, Twitter. 737 00:42:52,440 --> 00:42:56,000 Speaker 1: Do check out our community page Ridiculous Historians on Facebook. 738 00:42:56,160 --> 00:42:57,480 Speaker 1: And if you don't want to do any of that, 739 00:42:57,520 --> 00:43:00,239 Speaker 1: you can just send us an email to ridiculous us 740 00:43:00,320 --> 00:43:03,800 Speaker 1: at i heart radio dot com. We'll see you next time, folks. 741 00:43:09,840 --> 00:43:11,920 Speaker 1: For more podcasts from my heart Radio, visit the i 742 00:43:12,000 --> 00:43:14,920 Speaker 1: heart Radio app, Apple podcast, or wherever you listen to 743 00:43:14,960 --> 00:43:15,840 Speaker 1: your favorite shows.