Speaker 1: Welcome to Bill and Juliana the podcast. Hey guys, welcome
Speaker 1: to the podcast. So Bill and I have been together
Speaker 1: for almost twenty years. That's twenty years of making love
Speaker 1: to the same person. And so today's mission is kind
Speaker 1: of like between the sheets, if you will. What I
Speaker 1: want to tackle today is how do we keep our
Speaker 1: long term relationship spicy? And I think this applies to
Speaker 1: whether you are in a long term relationship or not,
Speaker 1: because even if you're just let's say you just got
Speaker 1: married or you're dating someone right now, like, how do
Speaker 1: you keep it spicy? Right? So people often, you know,
Speaker 1: feel embarrassed talking about this topic. I am not one
Speaker 1: of those people. I wonder if Bill, who by the way,
Speaker 1: is off today, Bill is, well, I'm not gonna he's
Speaker 1: not at work, He's on vacation. So Bill is on vacation.
Speaker 1: God love him. But so I am kind of taking
Speaker 1: over the show today. But I wonder if Bill was here,
Speaker 1: would he be embarrassed. I feel like he wouldn't because
Speaker 1: he has been unhinged on this podcast since we started it,
Speaker 1: so it would be fun to hear what he has
Speaker 1: to say. But I'll well, I'll just improvise for the
Speaker 1: both of us. So joining us today is someone who
Speaker 1: knows a lot about this topic. She is like a
Speaker 1: total expert in this. She's a licensed sex therapist and
Speaker 1: a psychotherapist. Her name is Vanessa Marin and Vanessa and
Speaker 1: her husband Xander host the number one rated sex podcast
Speaker 1: called Pillow Talks. So if anyone is going to give
Speaker 1: me great advice today, it's going to be Vanessa. Vanessa,
Speaker 1: thank you so much for joining me.
Speaker 2: Thanks so much for having me. I'm so excited to
Speaker 2: get to chat today.
Speaker 1: I know so, Vanessa, me too. So you are like,
Speaker 1: you've written books, you have this incredible podcast, and you
Speaker 1: used to see couples right in person. But now you guys,
Speaker 1: because you've gotten so busy and so in demand, but
Speaker 1: people can still see you right Like, how does that work?
Speaker 2: Yeah? We offer online guides and courses that we have
Speaker 2: things like our Ultimate for Play Guides, Ultimate Sex Positions,
Speaker 2: the Art of Initiation, and we built those out because
Speaker 2: I realized, well, first of all, my practice filled up
Speaker 2: right away, and I wanted to be able to help
Speaker 2: more people. But I also realized this is a pretty
Speaker 2: tough ask to get people that come in person talk
Speaker 2: about the most intimate details of their lives, and we
Speaker 2: realize being able to put things online where you can
Speaker 2: get access to those same tools and resources but have
Speaker 2: the comfort and privacy of your own home was actually
Speaker 2: a much better fit.
Speaker 1: So who are you finding like the need from the most?
Speaker 1: Is it a couple that's been together a long time
Speaker 1: that is looking to spice things up? And when a
Speaker 1: couple does come to you, where do you start with them?
Speaker 2: Xander and I have been together almost nineteen years, so
Speaker 2: we're right behind you and Bill. And as the businesses progressed,
Speaker 2: I've realized that I really love working with couples in
Speaker 2: long term relationships where you have seen it all, you've
Speaker 2: been so annoyed with each other at the socks right
Speaker 2: next to the hamper and the dish on top of
Speaker 2: the dishwasher, instead of just right into it. I wanted
Speaker 2: to help people answer this question of how do we
Speaker 2: still want to have sex with each other even after
Speaker 2: all these years and all these annoyances and just the
Speaker 2: challenges of daily life. So that's really our specialty. And
Speaker 2: when people first come to us, mostly what they will
Speaker 2: come to us with is the thought, you know, I
Speaker 2: don't have a desire for sex anymore, our desire feels
Speaker 2: really mismatched. We're just not having it. People are really
Speaker 2: focused on frequency, and usually they'll come to us with
Speaker 2: the question how much sex should we be having? We
Speaker 2: all want to know that magic number that like, if
Speaker 2: we just hit that quota, everything will be okay, we'll
Speaker 2: be fine. But actually, what we have found to be
Speaker 2: so much more interesting of a starting place is to
Speaker 2: look at the quality of the sex that you're having,
Speaker 2: because it doesn't make any sense for us to talk
Speaker 2: about desire if you're not having sex that's worth desiring.
Speaker 2: So I call this the mushy broccoli problem. Like do
Speaker 2: you ever find yourself craving a bowl of overly steamed, mushy,
Speaker 2: unseasoned broccoli. Of course not. And do you think anything
Speaker 2: is wrong with you for not wanting mushy broccoli? Obviously not.
Speaker 2: It makes perfect sense, right, But we have to be
Speaker 2: honest with ourselves. A lot of us are having some
Speaker 2: mushy sex, mushy broccoli sex, and then we're beating ourselves
Speaker 2: up for not wanting more of it. So we have
Speaker 2: to look at the quality first before we can look
Speaker 2: at the quantity.
Speaker 1: What do you mean by quality is that are we
Speaker 1: talking like you have to plan a whole thing out
Speaker 1: and like there's candle light and some soft rock playing
Speaker 1: and then you have like, uh, toys and the lighting
Speaker 1: is perfect because can I be honest, I can't. I can't.
Speaker 1: That's like I feel like I'm just so busy, Like
Speaker 1: we're so busy. And I think, and you've probably heard
Speaker 1: this so much. And now, granted we have one child
Speaker 1: who's thirteen. One of my best friends has six kids.
Speaker 1: The other one just had her third, Like I think
Speaker 1: I am tired from parenting. I can imagine most people
Speaker 1: are incredibly tired from parenting. So between that career, all
Speaker 1: of it. So what do you mean by quality? What
Speaker 1: are we talking about here?
Speaker 2: This is such an interesting question because if you ask
Speaker 2: the average person, do you want to have a great
Speaker 2: sex life? Most people will say yeah, absolutely. But then
Speaker 2: if you ask them, okay, what does that mean to you?
Speaker 2: What does great sex mean to you? Most people will
Speaker 2: just be deer in headlights. They don't even know how
Speaker 2: to answer that question. So I think that's a really
Speaker 2: important starting point for all of us, and I would
Speaker 2: encourage everyone listening to this podcast. When you're done, take
Speaker 2: a moment to think about it, like what does great
Speaker 2: sex mean to me? And see if you can just
Speaker 2: come up with like three words or three descriptors, three
Speaker 2: specifics about what it means to you. So, for example,
Speaker 2: like you were, you were giving up a couple of
Speaker 2: examples of like putting on the soft rug and putting
Speaker 2: the candles on, and for some people that might be, oh, yes,
Speaker 2: that is the exact environment that I want to have,
Speaker 2: and other people are going to think, ooh, soft rock candles.
Speaker 2: This feels so cheesy. I don't want to do that.
Speaker 2: So we've got to start identifying like what feels right
Speaker 2: for us. But I'm also really glad that you are
Speaker 2: willing to be vulnerable and share some personal details about
Speaker 2: your own life too, because I think you're illustrating something
Speaker 2: that a lot of us get wrong about sex. We
Speaker 2: think that it has to be this big production. We've
Speaker 2: got to do all the things, and it's going to
Speaker 2: take all the time, and let's be real, most of
Speaker 2: us are exhausted. I've actually never worked with a couple
Speaker 2: who said, we just have so much free time and
Speaker 2: so much energy, what do we do with all of this?
Speaker 1: Right, We're all.
Speaker 2: Exhausted and tired, and our days are really filled, and
Speaker 2: so when we think about sex as having to be
Speaker 2: this huge production, it's game over from the beginning. We're
Speaker 2: too tired, we don't have the space for it. So
Speaker 2: I do think it's it's valuable for us to try
Speaker 2: to carve time out and like sometimes have those special
Speaker 2: moments where we do go all in, Like vacation is
Speaker 2: a great example. You know who doesn't love vacation sex
Speaker 2: when you just you have that space and the energy
Speaker 2: and you're sleeping in. But on a day to day basis,
Speaker 2: I think it's so much more important for us to
Speaker 2: focus on what's good enough sex, Like what's something that
Speaker 2: it maybe is not gonna you know, it's not gonna
Speaker 2: take a ton of time, it's not gonna take a
Speaker 2: ton of effort, it's not going to be the best
Speaker 2: sex we've ever had, but it's still good enough that
Speaker 2: we get to have that experience of feeling pleasure, of
Speaker 2: feeling connected with each other, and we get to have
Speaker 2: that experience that I think is actually one of the
Speaker 2: most important parts of sex is right after if you notice,
Speaker 2: like even those days where you were so hired or
Speaker 2: it just you weren't really in the mood right after sex.
Speaker 2: The vast majority of us think I'm so glad we
Speaker 2: did that. I think we think of that moment and
Speaker 2: what's the minimum that we could do to get to
Speaker 2: that moment? We'll have much better sex lives.
Speaker 1: It's so funny you say that, You're absolutely right. It's
Speaker 1: like we'll go through stages where we just like, are
Speaker 1: so busy, we're just tired, and we like lights out,
Speaker 1: not fooling around right for a while, and then when
Speaker 1: we do it, and it's usually Bill like being like, honey,
Speaker 1: it's been a while. I'm like, oh okay, because I'm
Speaker 1: just like I was tired, tired, And then right after
Speaker 1: I always go we have to do that more often
Speaker 1: go back and they'll actually say, which is beyond laughable
Speaker 1: if you ask Bill, because he would be laughing right now.
Speaker 1: I always go, wait, why don't we do that every day?
Speaker 1: And he's like, I can't. He's like, hello, I'm looking
Speaker 1: at it. I'm looking at the reason we don't do
Speaker 1: it every day, because you know, but you're right right after,
Speaker 1: what is it? It's like that hormones release oxytot oxycytosin. Yeah,
Speaker 1: look at me, I know, my science girl oxytocin is released.
Speaker 1: I've actually known that. I don't. I remember reading an
Speaker 1: article years ago and that's that feeling of like like
Speaker 1: just that you can't get anywhere else right after and
Speaker 1: it's that oxytocin, and so you have that feeling and
Speaker 1: it's like euphoria. You're just like, oh my gosh, that
Speaker 1: was so amazing, like we need to do this every day,
Speaker 1: and then you go back to your life and you
Speaker 1: don't do it every day most people. So I feel
Speaker 1: like a huge part of this, because it takes two
Speaker 1: to tango is communication. It's like what does the It's
Speaker 1: not just what do you want or what constitutes great
Speaker 1: sex to you, but like what great sex sex to
Speaker 1: your partner because you guys have to be on the
Speaker 1: same page. I mean, if anything takes two to tango,
Speaker 1: it's this, right, absolutely.
Speaker 2: So first I want everybody listening to think of a
Speaker 2: few specifics for themselves, because you probably haven't ever thought
Speaker 2: about that question. Then I want you to ask your partner.
Speaker 2: So I love blaming podcasts as a way to open
Speaker 2: up a conversation so you can tell your partner, Hey,
Speaker 2: I was listening to my favorite podcast today. Juliana had
Speaker 2: this guest on the Sex Therapist, and she asked us
Speaker 2: this question that was so fascinating. I've never thought about
Speaker 2: it before, and here are my answers. I'm really curious
Speaker 2: to know what your answers would be, and you can
Speaker 2: give your partner a little bit of time. They may
Speaker 2: not be able to answer it right on the spot,
Speaker 2: but that can be a great way for the two
Speaker 2: of you to start comparing notes and starting to talk
Speaker 2: more openly about your sex life. Because here's the thing
Speaker 2: about communication. We all know we should be doing it right.
Speaker 2: And you see it, you know when you're up secretly
Speaker 2: googling in incognito mode, like why aren't we having sex anymore?
Speaker 2: How to start having more sex? Like it's in every article,
Speaker 2: like you have to talk to your partner. We all
Speaker 2: know that, but nobody ever talks to us about what
Speaker 2: we're supposed to say and how we're supposed to say it,
Speaker 2: and when we say it, and you know, what do
Speaker 2: we do if our partner responds poorly to it? So
Speaker 2: Xander and I actually wrote a literal book about this
Speaker 2: because I got so frustrated and seeing that same advice
Speaker 2: over and over again, and we actually struggled in our
Speaker 2: own relationship, which was so challenging for me, Like I'm
Speaker 2: in this field, I love this topic so much, and
Speaker 2: yet when we were going through challenges in our own
Speaker 2: sex life, I didn't know how to talk about it.
Speaker 2: So the book is actually everything. It's basically the opposite
Speaker 2: of everything that I actually did. We learned better tools
Speaker 2: and techniques through mucking through it on our own. But
Speaker 2: it's called Sex Talks the five Conversations that every couple
Speaker 2: should have, and it leads you through specific conversations what
Speaker 2: to say, when to say it, how to say it,
Speaker 2: rather than just that generic just talk about it.
Speaker 1: I love that. When did you write that? When did
Speaker 1: that come out?
Speaker 2: That came out in twenty twenty three, and it was
Speaker 2: an instant New York Times bestseller, so I'd clearly resonated
Speaker 2: with a lot of people. Yeah, but one of the
Speaker 2: you know, one of the mistakes people make when it
Speaker 2: comes to talking about sex is we don't want to
Speaker 2: do it because it feels scary and vulnerable. And so
Speaker 2: most people their very first conversation about sex is when
Speaker 2: something is just gotten so bad that you don't have
Speaker 2: any choice not to talk about it anymore. That actually
Speaker 2: was the first conversation, the first real conversation Xander and
Speaker 2: I had in our relationship was me telling him why
Speaker 2: do you never want to have sex with me anymore?
Speaker 2: Not a great conversation, It did not go well. So
Speaker 2: when we start with something negative that only reinforces our
Speaker 2: feeling that we don't want to talk about it. It feels
Speaker 2: scary and vulnerable and overwhelming. So instead, the book is
Speaker 2: really centered around how do we start talking about sex
Speaker 2: in a positive way? First, So we build this foundation,
Speaker 2: we get comfortable with the topic. It even can feel
Speaker 2: fun to talk about it. And then once you have
Speaker 2: that foundation in place, talking about the trickier actually feels
Speaker 2: a lot easier.
Speaker 1: And I think it's about for a lot of people
Speaker 1: as we talk about this, it's like reframing your mind. Right, Like,
Speaker 1: it's not sex, especially in a relationship of a long time, right,
Speaker 1: or you know, any committed relationship. Okay, it is important
Speaker 1: for a lot of reasons, right, It's not just like,
Speaker 1: oh I'm married, I'm in a long term relationship, I
Speaker 1: have to have sex frequently because it's like part of
Speaker 1: it's like what people do. It's also a way obviously
Speaker 1: to connect. It's a connection right, it's an intimate connection.
Speaker 1: And I will tell you, as someone who's been married
Speaker 1: twenty years, I think what's important to note too is
Speaker 1: that like both people in the relationship have to kind
Speaker 1: of be fulfilled, right. It can't just be about one
Speaker 1: person being fulfilled, because I think what starts to happen is,
Speaker 1: and I'll tell you someone who's been married two decades
Speaker 1: that you know, we both get so busy Bill and
Speaker 1: I and I think, like in my head, I'm like, well,
Speaker 1: of course he knows I love him and I'm attracted
Speaker 1: to him, so but sometimes it's like just also that
Speaker 1: feeling of like the other person feeling desirable, you know,
Speaker 1: and wanted that you want. It's not about like we
Speaker 1: have to have sex because we're married and that's what
Speaker 1: couples do, or we're dating and that's what couples. It's
Speaker 1: also like, oh, wait, she wants to have sex with me,
Speaker 1: not she needs to have sex with me. Let's talk
Speaker 1: about that, because there's a big difference when it comes
Speaker 1: to that, and I think that is very important because
Speaker 1: that's where problems start to happen and things can start
Speaker 1: to unravel in a relationship when there's a distinct difference
Speaker 1: because there's a distinct difference between the two.
Speaker 2: We all want to feel wanted, and especially in a
Speaker 2: long term relationship, we want to feel like our partner
Speaker 2: is still choosing us, still desires us, still wants to
Speaker 2: be with us. It's real, really easy to fall into
Speaker 2: the roommate stage, to fall into taking each other for granted,
Speaker 2: and we are all desperately missing that feeling of being
Speaker 2: wanted by our partner. I think a lot of us,
Speaker 2: and especially us women, we have the tendency to think
Speaker 2: of sex as just this physical act. It's just body
Speaker 2: parts going into body parts. It's just about the release.
Speaker 2: And you know, we have a lot of stereotypes about
Speaker 2: men that they want it wherever, whenever, they'll stick whatever
Speaker 2: they can get, and we fail to recognize all of
Speaker 2: the emotional components to sex, all of the ways that
Speaker 2: it helps us feel more connected to each other, closer
Speaker 2: to each other. It's the one thing that we do
Speaker 2: with this one person. It's what differentiates us from being
Speaker 2: just friends, from being household co managers or co parents. Yeah,
Speaker 2: so's It's so much more than just this physical act.
Speaker 2: And if we were able to recognize that, I think
Speaker 2: it would make a huge impact on many relationships.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you guys, I think that's really important. If you're listening,
Speaker 1: obviously this is something you've been thinking about, or maybe
Speaker 1: now you're thinking about it. You're like, huh, I stumbled
Speaker 1: on this podcast, and yeah, this is interesting because you know,
Speaker 1: I'm kind of going through this sort of thing, because
Speaker 1: what does start to happen is, you know, you've been
Speaker 1: together a long time, you get into a routine, and
Speaker 1: I think there is, at least with Bill, and I
Speaker 1: think what starts to happen with us is I just
Speaker 1: start to like assume. Of course, like he knows that
Speaker 1: I think he's gorgeous, and of course I want to
Speaker 1: fool around, but like I'm just tired. But of course
Speaker 1: he knows he's still desirable. But he has said it.
Speaker 1: He's like, what are you not? Are you not attracted
Speaker 1: to me? And that's you don't want to you know,
Speaker 1: we don't want to keep that going, you know what
Speaker 1: I mean? So you have to like and it's not
Speaker 1: just like, oh my god, I am attracted to you,
Speaker 1: let's have sex right now. It's not about that. It's
Speaker 1: just about communication and being like, oh wait a second,
Speaker 1: hold on, let me tell you. Why. Of course I'm
Speaker 1: attracted to you, but I've been so busy. I'm tired. I'm
Speaker 1: going through this at an you know, for some reason.
Speaker 1: You know, maybe it's my age, I'm going whatever it is, perry, menopause, menopause,
Speaker 1: whatever it is. Talking about it together is so important,
Speaker 1: right because otherwise you do, you can start to push
Speaker 1: the other person away. And that's really that's scary that
Speaker 1: you must see that a lot.
Speaker 2: Yeah, relationships are really all about the small things. It's
Speaker 2: it's those little reminders to each other, those things that
Speaker 2: we just assume or take for granted, like he must know,
Speaker 2: he's got to know. But our partner needs to hear
Speaker 2: those things, and we need to hear those things too, right,
Speaker 2: So it's just being willing to say those things out loud,
Speaker 2: often repeating them. Don't you can't you know, like we
Speaker 2: can't say I love you once and then we just
Speaker 2: assume partner knows. Right. I'm just never going to say
Speaker 2: it to them again. We said it on our wedding day,
Speaker 2: We'll never say it again. Like no, we love saying
Speaker 2: I love you often. And I think if we also
Speaker 2: talk about our sex life and our attraction to each other,
Speaker 2: our desire for each other in that same sort of way.
Speaker 2: It's really beneficial. So I recommend that couples follow the
Speaker 2: seventy two hour rule. And this is not about how
Speaker 2: often you have to have sex, but this is about
Speaker 2: how often you have to talk about sex. All right,
Speaker 2: So every seventy two hours you have to at least
Speaker 2: acknowledge your sex life. So if you guys aren't having it,
Speaker 2: it could be literally something as simple as, hey, I
Speaker 2: just want to acknowledge. This week has been so busy.
Speaker 2: I know we both have been feeling a little bit
Speaker 2: run down, and you know, we had the kids rehearsal
Speaker 2: and the dance recital and all of that. There just
Speaker 2: hasn't been the space for it. But I just want
Speaker 2: you to know I'm still thinking about you. I wish
Speaker 2: we had had time to connect, and I'm looking forward
Speaker 2: and I think maybe Thursday would be a great day
Speaker 2: for us, or even just I hope sometime soon we
Speaker 2: can get back in the saddle with each other. So
Speaker 2: that short little sentence really makes all the difference in
Speaker 2: the world because it helps your partner know what's actually
Speaker 2: going on for you. Their brain doesn't have to spin
Speaker 2: out thinking is she still attracted to me anymore? Does
Speaker 2: she still want me? Is she still into me? Like
Speaker 2: they get to know that you are still thinking about
Speaker 2: it and it still makes the space for Yeah, life's
Speaker 2: busy sometimes you're not going to be able to so
Speaker 2: that's okay, but you just have to acknowledge it.
Speaker 1: I'm fifty one and so definitely I don't have a
Speaker 1: drive like I used to. You know, at certain stages
Speaker 1: like currently that's why Bill's not here, just getting time.
Speaker 1: I'm just kidding, but but you know, you go through
Speaker 1: stages where like your sex drive is very low, okay,
Speaker 1: and I have to say, like Bill and I, it's important.
Speaker 1: It's embarrassing, Like you know, it's been embarrassing for me,
Speaker 1: Like I you know, I don't like want to talk.
Speaker 1: I'm not like bringing it up with Bill all that.
Speaker 1: I wasn't bringing it up like hey, by the way,
Speaker 1: I have like no sex drive right now, but like
Speaker 1: hopefully soon have a good day. You know, it's not you,
Speaker 1: it's me. But at the same time, I remember we
Speaker 1: had this conversation and Bill was like, well, are you
Speaker 1: just gonna like accept that or like why don't we
Speaker 1: like work together on that? Like what can we do, like,
Speaker 1: do you want to talk to you? Like, I'm really
Speaker 1: close to my obgyn. I'm like, he's like the best,
Speaker 1: He's like a friend. I just love him so much,
Speaker 1: so like I can go to him get advice and
Speaker 1: he and I did, and I got really good advice.
Speaker 1: But I think if I hadn't just told Bill the truth,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean, I would have just let
Speaker 1: it go and keep going and going. Bill would have
Speaker 1: been confused. I'm just like accepting this as my new
Speaker 1: me and new life. So kind of can you elaborate
Speaker 1: on that a little bit and what advice you give
Speaker 1: to women who are going through that kind of period
Speaker 1: in their life.
Speaker 2: My hot take is that desire is really overrated. I
Speaker 2: think we put pressure on ourselves to feel the desire
Speaker 2: for sex in a way that we don't put pressure
Speaker 2: on ourselves to feel desire for anything else in our lives.
Speaker 2: And to be clear, I'm only talking about like safe,
Speaker 2: healthy relationships here, sure, but like let's think about let's
Speaker 2: think about like who has not had the experience of
Speaker 2: you make a date with your friend. You guys are
Speaker 2: going to go out to dinner together, and the day
Speaker 2: rolls around, you were sitting on the couch, you're watching
Speaker 2: new Netflix show. You're in your pajamas already and thinking, oh,
Speaker 2: I help my friend cancels on me. I would love
Speaker 2: to just stay here on the couch, and I don't
Speaker 2: want to get up and have to change, but you
Speaker 2: force yourself to do it. You get up, you go out,
Speaker 2: have a great time with your friend, and you're heading
Speaker 2: back to your house thinking I'm so glad I did that.
Speaker 2: We don't beat ourselves up or put pressure on ourselves
Speaker 2: in the same way with stuff like that, Like we
Speaker 2: recognize that we can be kind of ambivalent about a
Speaker 2: lot of other things in our life, but we're not
Speaker 2: focusing so much on the desire. We're thinking more about
Speaker 2: the experience afterwards, that feeling of I'm so glad I
Speaker 2: did it. And I think it would really benefit us
Speaker 2: to think about sex in the same way. So I
Speaker 2: like to rather than thinking about, like, am I super
Speaker 2: horny right now? I'm so turned on and I have
Speaker 2: to have sex. Because also the thing is, like, let's
Speaker 2: think about when Xander initiates with me. It would be
Speaker 2: really weird if every single time he initiated with me,
Speaker 2: I was I would say, oh my God, what a coincidence.
Speaker 2: I just happened to be super horny at the exact
Speaker 2: same moment that you're super horny. What a great coincidence.
Speaker 2: Let's go and have sex. Like we're different people, we
Speaker 2: feel interested in it at different times. So instead I
Speaker 2: think of it in terms of willingness. Am I open
Speaker 2: to being intimate? Am I open to getting started and
Speaker 2: seeing if I wind up getting turned on and wanting more?
Speaker 2: And I think about that experience afterwards. Am I going
Speaker 2: to enjoy the sex that we have. I'm gonna enjoy
Speaker 2: that feeling of lying together afterwards and feeling so close.
Speaker 2: So when I think about it in that way, it
Speaker 2: really lowers the bar, It lowers any pressure that I feel,
Speaker 2: and it makes me so much more willing and open
Speaker 2: to connect with him.
Speaker 1: That's interesting. So like explain, just like if some if
Speaker 1: this happens to someone tonight. Okay, they're in bed, They're not,
Speaker 1: They're not. They weren't really in the mood getting into bed.
Speaker 1: They thought they were going to watch episode thirteen of
Speaker 1: season thirteen of Love Island UK and they were like
Speaker 1: perfectly content. That was like their night. The husband was
Speaker 1: gonna fall, Bill's gonna fall asleep. I'm going to watch
Speaker 1: the new episode, you know, my episode of Love Island UK,
Speaker 1: which by the way, I can't recommend it enough. And
Speaker 1: I thought that was gonna be my night. And next
Speaker 1: thing I know, Bill's like, you know, you can tell
Speaker 1: like he's doing all his like Bill stuff, like I
Speaker 1: wanna okay, so what so what exactly? So what would
Speaker 1: I do there?
Speaker 2: What would I Okay? So first we're gonna work with
Speaker 2: Bill because it's been a while, isn't exactly the sexiest initiation, right, Like,
Speaker 2: initiation needs to feel like an invitation. I just use
Speaker 2: an example of like going out with a friend. Imagine
Speaker 2: if you called your friend and you're like, it's been
Speaker 2: a while, you should probably go out to dinner, right,
Speaker 2: Like your your friend's not going to respond for well.
Speaker 1: To that, right, Like, yeah, we might as well exciting.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, we can talk about the initiation styles model
Speaker 2: that I developed in a minute, but we want a
Speaker 2: more exciting invitation.
Speaker 1: And he does all jokes aside he does He'll be like,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean is like the thing that like,
Speaker 1: you know, you're laying there and they suddenly start getting
Speaker 1: closer to you. Then yeah, you know, and and you
Speaker 1: get it like you have you know the signs of
Speaker 1: your partner right.
Speaker 2: Oh yeah, Xander doesn't have to say a word. I
Speaker 2: like the energy. Yes, tell I'm like, I know, I
Speaker 2: know what you're trying to do right now.
Speaker 1: Okay, So when Bill's energy shifts and I'm you know,
Speaker 1: and like Lorenzo and Jasmine are like just deciding on
Speaker 1: Love Island UK that like they might get back together,
Speaker 1: and I'm so into that moment and all of a sudden,
Speaker 1: I can feel his energy over here and you want
Speaker 1: to you know, like make love? What like, what what
Speaker 1: do I do there? Yeah?
Speaker 2: We also work a lot with men on learning how
Speaker 2: to read the room a little bit better, because then
Speaker 2: often have really bad timing. We also work with them
Speaker 2: on learning how to start for play earlier in the
Speaker 2: day too. I actually think that trying to have sex
Speaker 2: at the very end of the night is the worst
Speaker 2: time to have so we can get back to that too.
Speaker 1: All right, so we need to stop that.
Speaker 2: Okay. What I would recommend to you or any other
Speaker 2: woman in that moment is, no matter how awkwardly or
Speaker 2: unskillfully or even annoyingly your partner is initiating in that moment,
Speaker 2: imagine that what he's actually saying to you is I
Speaker 2: want to feel close to you right now.
Speaker 1: Ah, that's what's beautiful.
Speaker 2: What is happening again, it's you know, we have all
Speaker 2: these stereotypes that men are just horned dogs. But men
Speaker 2: are not allowed to be emotional creatures in the same
Speaker 2: way that we women are. They've been socialized from very
Speaker 2: young not to have emotions, not to express emotions it's
Speaker 2: not okay, and not to be vulnerable. And men tell
Speaker 2: us the only time in my entire life that I
Speaker 2: feel comfortable being vulnerable is during sex. The time that
Speaker 2: I feel the most open, the most connected, the most
Speaker 2: present and in the moment is when I'm being intimate
Speaker 2: with my partner. And so if we are able to
Speaker 2: see sex for what it really is for men, I
Speaker 2: think it just opens us up so much like the
Speaker 2: reaction that you just had, you're like, oh, you know.
Speaker 1: Like, yeah, yeah, I love that different. Now tell me
Speaker 1: about this theory, Vanessa. And I didn't tell Vanessa this
Speaker 1: ahead of time because I see your thoughts. Just stick
Speaker 1: with me here. So I've actually tried this on Bill ready.
Speaker 1: So before I met Bill, I was very I had
Speaker 1: like kind of these rules with guys and relationship and
Speaker 1: dating and like rules okay, like I wouldn't kiss on
Speaker 1: the first date. I just had these rules, okay. And
Speaker 1: so I always you know, and I stuck to my
Speaker 1: guns on this. So and I kind of played very
Speaker 1: hard to get okay, And that was like my thing.
Speaker 1: And I would give my friends advice and they had
Speaker 1: to play hard to get, whether it was a guy
Speaker 1: texting you and you kind of like putting it on
Speaker 1: ice for a while. Like I just had all these
Speaker 1: like little things I would do, okay, And then Bill
Speaker 1: and I got together, and so then sometimes you'll say
Speaker 1: to me like, gosh, you know it's been a while, honey,
Speaker 1: and I'll go, I'm playing hard to get. It's like,
Speaker 1: just because we're married doesn't mean I shouldn't play hard
Speaker 1: to get. What do you think about this? And maybe
Speaker 1: you've never thought of this vinessa. Maybe you have because
Speaker 1: you are an expert in this, but is there something
Speaker 1: there with like this is so stupid. Even as I'm
Speaker 1: saying this, I'm going, what the hell am I thinking?
Speaker 1: And this is the worst idea? But is it the
Speaker 1: worst idea? Hold on? Just I'm asking an expert even
Speaker 1: though you're married. Should We sometimes play hard to get, which,
Speaker 1: by the way, is my sneaky way of like not
Speaker 1: having to have sex that night because I'm tired. Oh,
Speaker 1: I'm playing hard to get. But okay, I don't know.
Speaker 1: Is there anything there, Vanessa, just appease me for a second.
Speaker 2: Okay, I'll give you a generous interpretation of it here.
Speaker 2: We have a flirting epidemic in relationships. So if you
Speaker 2: think back to our dating stages, flirting with our partner
Speaker 2: was one of the best things. It was so fun
Speaker 2: to have that, you know, that banter, that energy that
Speaker 2: will we or won't we kind of vibe? Yes, And
Speaker 2: most couples in long term relationships, their version of flirting
Speaker 2: is what do you want to watch tonight?
Speaker 1: Right?
Speaker 2: Don't do it with each other.
Speaker 1: But I'm doing, Vanessa, That's what I'm doing. Okay, go ahead.
Speaker 2: But where this is your way of like trying to flirt,
Speaker 2: trying to keep a little bit of like the energy
Speaker 2: alive between Okay.
Speaker 1: The mystery, the mystery just because we've been married twenty years.
Speaker 1: If I keep putting out every night, there's no more mystery.
Speaker 1: And he fell in love with me for the allure,
Speaker 1: the mystery that I was hard to get and so
Speaker 1: I'm trying to bring that into the relationship. I'm trying to, like,
Speaker 1: you know, I'm trying to like start a thing, Vanessa, let's.
Speaker 2: Do it together.
Speaker 1: Let's write a book on being hard to get. And
Speaker 1: by the way, when I told Bill this, he goes,
Speaker 1: that is horrible advice. He goes, please do not ever
Speaker 1: say that again. I was like, what are you talking about,
Speaker 1: Bill and playing card together? He's like, this isn't going
Speaker 1: to end well. But anyways, no, he was joking.
Speaker 2: I will tell you, like, in all seriousness, what I
Speaker 2: hear very often from women is, you know, I don't
Speaker 2: even want to like touch my partner or kiss him
Speaker 2: because I don't want to give him the wrong idea.
Speaker 2: I don't want him to get excited and then he'll
Speaker 2: me disappointed. So most couples will go the entire day
Speaker 2: with hard any touch, hardly any kiss. And that is
Speaker 2: really what leads you into feeling like roommates, because touching
Speaker 2: and kissing, that's the thing that differentiates us from just
Speaker 2: sharing space with another person, right Yeah, And I think
Speaker 2: that that is the exact wrong approach to take. I
Speaker 2: think that we should be getting our partner a little
Speaker 2: bit fired up, getting them a little bit excited.
Speaker 1: So flirting, you're going to.
Speaker 2: Flirting, and you know, I would rather have a relationship
Speaker 2: where I feel that spark, that energy between the two
Speaker 2: of us, and I don't always get that fulfilled, versus
Speaker 2: having a relationship where there's no contact, no touch no
Speaker 2: kissing unless we both agree beforehand that we're going to
Speaker 2: go all the way and have sex. So I say,
Speaker 2: let's bring back, like, bring back the touching, bring back
Speaker 2: the kissing. It's okay to get each other like a
Speaker 2: little bit fired up, but then not go through with it.
Speaker 2: That was one of the most fun parts of the
Speaker 2: early stages, right, Like we're getting going, but we're not
Speaker 2: finishing the whole thing.
Speaker 1: So you're saying my theory of playing hard to get
Speaker 1: twenty years into marriage kind of like flipping that on,
Speaker 1: like reframing it to flirting, kind of like like flirting
Speaker 1: being cute and sexy and like having something to look
Speaker 1: forward to at the end of the day, like maybe
Speaker 1: being flirty earlier in the day and tonight, watch what happens, honey,
Speaker 1: I have a little surprise for us, like that kind
Speaker 1: of thing, right, Like you used to do when you
Speaker 1: were dating. Yeah, okay, I like that. I have to
Speaker 1: ask you this, So, like what about when, because this
Speaker 1: can happen even when you've been married, you know, a
Speaker 1: long time. So like when you like we'll joke around,
Speaker 1: Bill will be like, oh, I remember when when we
Speaker 1: first got married or when we were dating, you were
Speaker 1: so much more adventurous. You do this, you like this,
Speaker 1: you do that, and like, for instance, like lights on
Speaker 1: and now I'm like, like, you know, it's funny. Some
Speaker 1: couples get more comfortable as they go on some kind
Speaker 1: of like revert back to like I only want to
Speaker 1: do it at night with the lights out, or you know,
Speaker 1: what are your thoughts on that? Like what if one
Speaker 1: one person in the relationship likes lights on and one
Speaker 1: likes lights off? What do you do? Do you compromise
Speaker 1: with a little candle light? Like what are we doing here? Like,
Speaker 1: you know, because you have to think about these things too, right,
Speaker 1: because you're not going to agree on every single thing together.
Speaker 2: You know, couples have a tendency to get so much
Speaker 2: more vanilla the longer they've been together. Yeah, so what
Speaker 2: happens is at the beginning of the relationship we're figuring
Speaker 2: each other out, how do our bodies fit, what do
Speaker 2: we like doing together? And we're like finding our ideal routine,
Speaker 2: which is great. But then over time the ideal routine
Speaker 2: really starts to narrow down to the point where it
Speaker 2: gets super predictable. Right, most women can script out for
Speaker 2: you exactly what sex looks like. It's like, it's a
Speaker 2: few seconds of kissing, there's a little boob groping, maybe
Speaker 2: the hands go down between the legs, and then we're
Speaker 2: on to intercourse and it's a couple minutes and then
Speaker 2: we roll up. You know, it's like, who gets excited
Speaker 2: for that? That is the definition of mushy broccoli sex,
Speaker 2: all right. But I think it happens because we stop
Speaker 2: taking risks with each other. Weirdly, the longer you've been
Speaker 2: with somebody, the harder it starts. Feeling to be vulnerable
Speaker 2: in front of you. We don't want to be seen
Speaker 2: as doing something new or taking a risk. We get
Speaker 2: so comfortable with how we are and to the point
Speaker 2: where we are really starting to damage our connection because
Speaker 2: we don't want to be vulnerable. So, you know, everybody's
Speaker 2: heard the advice to spice it up, and it sounds
Speaker 2: like really cheesy advice, but it actually has science behind it.
Speaker 2: We need to do new things with our partners. We
Speaker 2: need to mix things up in order to keep us
Speaker 2: on our toes, to keep us feeling interested and excited.
Speaker 2: You cannot have great sex without being vulnerable. So I
Speaker 2: want everybody listening to this to really be honest with
Speaker 2: themselves and think to themselves, when was the last time
Speaker 2: I was truly vulnerable during sex? When was the last
Speaker 2: time I took a risk during sex? If you can't
Speaker 2: remember something, if you don't have an answer that comes
Speaker 2: to time, yeah, that's a good sign that it's time
Speaker 2: to mix things up. And it does not mean so okay.
Speaker 2: A lot of people will hear me say I spice
Speaker 2: things up and they think, oh my god, now we've
Speaker 2: got to get the whips and chains out and you
Speaker 2: got what I want to get. That's where our brains go, too, right,
Speaker 2: But that does not have to be the only way
Speaker 2: to mix things up. Of course, if you want to
Speaker 2: do that, go ahead and do that. But mixing things
Speaker 2: up could be just bringing some stuff back that you
Speaker 2: used to do earlier in your lifelationship that you haven't
Speaker 2: done in a while. Doesn't need to be a brand
Speaker 2: new thing that you've never done before. It could be
Speaker 2: you know, oh, man, we used to spend a lot
Speaker 2: more time on oral sex, and I can't even remember
Speaker 2: the last time we had oral sex. Okay, it could be, Oh,
Speaker 2: there was that position that we did that one time
Speaker 2: that actually was really fun, but I don't know why
Speaker 2: we never repeated that.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 2: So it's okay if it's something that you've done before.
Speaker 2: But we do need to be taking risks and being
Speaker 2: vulnerable with each other.
Speaker 1: It's not just so much like oh, bringing like toys
Speaker 1: or lotions and potions and things like that, and you're
Speaker 1: saying even just going back and being like, oh, it's
Speaker 1: like a position we haven't done in a while or something. Okay,
Speaker 1: I got that. I like that right there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, start with stuff that you've already done, because that
Speaker 2: feels easier. You know you've already done it, it's not
Speaker 2: brand new, and that'll give you the confidence to keep
Speaker 2: going and trying other things. But we actually have research
Speaker 2: showing that women are the ones who need more novelty
Speaker 2: in relationships than men are.
Speaker 1: But I said, before I let you go, what are
Speaker 1: your thoughts on couples who start to sleep in separate
Speaker 1: bedrooms for different reasons, Like it could be anything, right,
Speaker 1: they have different sleep schedules. Oh, one watches TV, one doesn't.
Speaker 1: They're like, Eh, he knows I love him, she knows
Speaker 1: I love her. Let's just sleep in our separate bedroom.
Speaker 1: What are your thoughts on that? And in terms of
Speaker 1: how that applies to the conversation we're having today.
Speaker 2: Is the sleep divorce? Sleep divorces are really on the rise?
Speaker 1: Is that dangerous in your eyes? In terms of like
Speaker 1: the maintaining a healthy sex life, I.
Speaker 2: Think there's something really intimate about having a moment at
Speaker 2: the end of the day together. So I'm okay with
Speaker 2: couples sleeping separately because there are a lot of valid
Speaker 2: reasons for that, like totally different schedules. Maybe someone's got
Speaker 2: horrific snoring, maybe there or babies. You know, there are
Speaker 2: a lot of perfectly understandable reasons. But what I would
Speaker 2: say is, if you're going to sleep separately, make sure
Speaker 2: you have some sort of ritual at the end of
Speaker 2: the day. And again, I don't think it should be sex,
Speaker 2: because I think that sex is that's the worst time
Speaker 2: to have sex at the very end of the day,
Speaker 2: but some sort of little ritual. It could be two minutes,
Speaker 2: doesn't need to be a big deal. Or maybe you
Speaker 2: both just crawl into bed together and you spend two
Speaker 2: minutes cuddling or two minutes talking about how your day was,
Speaker 2: but do something to wrap up the day together.
Speaker 1: Okay, And you know what I just thought of. You
Speaker 1: know what, Bill and I sometimes sleep in separate rooms
Speaker 1: because of that schedule and that sort of thing. You
Speaker 1: could even make that part of this flirting and the spiciness.
Speaker 1: So like I go, good night Bill. Oh no, I'm
Speaker 1: not in the mood. Yeah, no, good night and night. Okay,
Speaker 1: see you tomorrow. No, I still think you're attractive, but
Speaker 1: I'm just not in the mood tonight. And then ten
Speaker 1: minutes later I knock on the door and I go,
Speaker 1: did someone order chocolate or like special delivery? And I
Speaker 1: come in and like, you kind of make it sexy,
Speaker 1: you know what I mean?
Speaker 2: That could be very fun. I think you would like
Speaker 2: that a lot.
Speaker 1: Okay, all right, I'll tell him, all right, Vanessa, thank
Speaker 1: you so much. If people want to get your online guides,
Speaker 1: where did they go for that?
Speaker 2: They can go to vmtherapy dot com. It's my initials
Speaker 2: V M T h E R A p y dot com.
Speaker 2: Our most popular one is the Ultimate four Play Guide,
Speaker 2: which has over one hundred unique techniques. We have gotten
Speaker 2: the best feedback. People will tell us like I use
Speaker 2: that on my husband and he was literally speechless for
Speaker 2: ten minutes hourards sois are very fun and it's just
Speaker 2: a fun place to start. It's not, you know, nothing's wrong,
Speaker 2: nobody's having to have any serious conversations. It's just pure fun.
Speaker 2: And our ultimate sex positions are very very fun as well,
Speaker 2: so would definitely recommend checking those out. And we'd also
Speaker 2: love to connect with anyone from your community. On Instagram.
Speaker 2: We're at Vanessa and xanders Anders with an x and
Speaker 2: we make a lot of content there specifically to open
Speaker 2: up conversations between partners. So if you want to get
Speaker 2: talking with your partner, want this to feel like a
Speaker 2: more lighthearted topic in your relationship, because it should. Sex
Speaker 2: shouldn't have to feel serious and heavy and scary. It
Speaker 2: should feel playful and light and fun. You can go
Speaker 2: check us out there too.
Speaker 1: I'm literally coowey. Hold on, I'm not kidding. I'm doing
Speaker 1: it right now, and let me tell you why. I'm
Speaker 1: going to follow you right now on Instagram, and Vanessa
Speaker 1: and then a ND and then XA and d are
Speaker 1: yes exactly.
Speaker 2: We make a lot of ridiculous content too. We act
Speaker 2: out the worst sex positions we've ever found on the internet.
Speaker 1: Oh my god, really, hold on, Vanessa's Okay, So here
Speaker 1: it is Vanessa Xander. Okay, so I'm going to follow
Speaker 1: oh one point three million followers. You go, Okay, I'm
Speaker 1: following you because you know why, because what if I forget,
Speaker 1: like to do all of this and then having following
Speaker 1: you on Instagram? Now you're just gonna pop up and
Speaker 1: it's gonna be fun videos and it's like, you know
Speaker 1: what I mean, And that's the name of the game,
Speaker 1: you guys, is to just like you have to make
Speaker 1: this part of your everyday life or every other day life,
Speaker 1: you know, like that You're just this has got to
Speaker 1: be top of mind, especially for a lot of people
Speaker 1: who just like I forgotten about it, and by those
Speaker 1: people I mean me. So I'm going to be better
Speaker 1: about it. Vanessa, You're the best. Thank you so much
Speaker 1: for joining me. I'll fill Bill in on the conversation
Speaker 1: for sure, but thank you so much. This was awesome.
Speaker 2: Thanks for having me