Speaker 1: My name is Clay Nukleman.
Speaker 2: This is a production of the Bear Grease podcast called
Speaker 2: the Bear Grease Render, where we render down, dive deeper,
Speaker 2: and look behind the scenes of the actual bear Grease podcast,
Speaker 2: presented by f HF Gear, American made purpose built hunting
Speaker 2: and fishing gear that's designed to be as rugged as
Speaker 2: the place as we explore.
Speaker 3: Well, I've been looking forward to this render for a while.
Speaker 3: We kind of got off schedule we did the first
Speaker 3: night Rider Tobacco War episode. Now we usually have a
Speaker 3: render where we talk about it like immediately, but we
Speaker 3: kind of had a fill in render with Rich Frohning.
Speaker 3: But this works out perfect. Never heard of him, never
Speaker 3: heard of the Fittest man in the world, which frowning
Speaker 3: the uh so we had we had. We've now played
Speaker 3: these two night Rider Tobacco War episodes.
Speaker 1: So that's what we're here to talk about.
Speaker 3: And we have a pretty good, pretty good guest list
Speaker 3: here a varied assortment of guests. Yes, we got my dad, Gary, Bilievernukom,
Speaker 3: who I have some I have someone sent you a gift.
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go ahead money, I'm gonna go ahead money,
Speaker 3: I'm gonna go ahead and introduce everybody. Uh, then I
Speaker 3: have Jeff Gardner. Now you're not from Kentucky, but I
Speaker 3: am from Kentucky.
Speaker 4: You are from currently don't live in Kentucky, correct, currently
Speaker 4: in Oklahoma.
Speaker 3: But Jeff, Jeff did something that's very rare in the
Speaker 3: Bear Grease world is that he basically like hand delivered
Speaker 3: this podcast to us.
Speaker 1: For real. I'm not kidding.
Speaker 3: People all the time suggest stuff, which I love, I mean,
Speaker 3: keep them coming. A lot of times the suggestions are
Speaker 3: about stories that maybe people don't have the full grasp
Speaker 3: on and maybe it's a great idea. It's not someone's
Speaker 3: fault if they send me an incomplete. But when somebody goes,
Speaker 3: this is a great story, here's the book about it.
Speaker 3: I know the author, here's his number. Also know a
Speaker 3: secondary guest that you could interview about.
Speaker 1: I think this.
Speaker 3: Would happen to be my wife's grandpa, right, I mean,
Speaker 3: he just like hand delivered the whole thing. And then
Speaker 3: so we ordered the book and we were just like, yeah,
Speaker 3: this is great. And so anyway, thanks Jeff.
Speaker 4: Hey happy to help. A big fan. Love what you
Speaker 4: guys do. And like I said, you know, I'm sure
Speaker 4: we'll get into it. But I read the story and
Speaker 4: was like, I literally was sitting there in my wife's
Speaker 4: grandfather's house and I went, man, I just I bet
Speaker 4: you could make a killing with a podcast of this.
Speaker 4: But then I was like, you know, I would love
Speaker 4: to hear somebody do this. And then it just clicked.
Speaker 4: I was like, this is exactly what these guys do. Yeah,
Speaker 4: and I was able to find a you know, email
Speaker 4: for you and get it to your.
Speaker 1: Worked out here we are.
Speaker 3: So your your grandfather is doctor Lloyd Murdoch, Is that correct?
Speaker 4: So my wife's grandfather, Yeah, he wife, you know, uh
Speaker 4: selfishly consider him my grandfather.
Speaker 1: He's been like grandfather to me.
Speaker 4: So I may refer to him that, and you may
Speaker 4: hear us refer to him as Bubby because that's what
Speaker 4: the rest of the world calls him outside.
Speaker 3: Of So he was he was on the first episode,
Speaker 3: and he's essentially as.
Speaker 1: Agronomus and was a tobacco expert.
Speaker 3: So he was the one real soft spoken guy that
Speaker 3: spoke on the first episode.
Speaker 1: So that that was great.
Speaker 3: And then so your brother in law, So you are
Speaker 3: married to sisters whose grandfather married my sister.
Speaker 1: I'm just not gonna.
Speaker 5: Yeah, family is Drew's grandfather.
Speaker 1: He is my grandfather, he's your grandfather. We're from Kentucky.
Speaker 1: It's family, get messy.
Speaker 6: I read the motto of Kentucky was fifteen million people,
Speaker 6: fifteen last names.
Speaker 1: Wow. Wow, I like it.
Speaker 3: I like it anytime we can jab somebody else.
Speaker 5: Exactly, yeah, exactly. You know we're at in Kentucky. Are
Speaker 5: you all from?
Speaker 1: So?
Speaker 7: I was actually uh born in Princeton, where one of
Speaker 7: the Reds happened, and where my that's where my.
Speaker 1: The Vatican of the Night Ridership.
Speaker 7: Ye, my U and my grandparents still live there. It's
Speaker 7: where Josh came down and did the interviews with my grandfather.
Speaker 7: In one county over was where Bill Conningham was. And
Speaker 7: but now I've since shifted. I'm in Lexington, Kentucky.
Speaker 1: Now, okay, okay, awesome man. Well I'm from Louisville, born
Speaker 1: and raised in Louisville.
Speaker 5: Are both y'all? So both y'all are Louisville fans. We are, yes, okay.
Speaker 1: Yes, we're all sad to see Cali party go. It
Speaker 1: didn't make any different, man.
Speaker 7: Yeah, I mean I I kind of wish he was
Speaker 7: still there because they'd be.
Speaker 5: Loves Mark.
Speaker 4: But we are actually two cardinals in a family of wildcats.
Speaker 4: So and now I got a little one of my
Speaker 4: own that it's it's tough, clay Man. They're they're wearing
Speaker 4: him out, they're bringing them over to their side. But
Speaker 4: he loves he loves his So I got a feeling,
Speaker 4: you know, the more we start running around together, he'll
Speaker 4: be all right, he'll yeah yeah.
Speaker 3: Well to finish out introductions, this is my neighbor friend,
Speaker 3: the best chicken farmer that I know, Charles Spencer known
Speaker 3: as Spence, and uh man, I just do you mind
Speaker 3: picking up your t jar. I have a deep respect
Speaker 3: for a man to drink tea out of a pickle
Speaker 3: jar Man, this.
Speaker 1: Is uh actually that Spence.
Speaker 3: Spence comes to our church every week with a different
Speaker 3: jar showing out everybody.
Speaker 5: I get called out. This is like you know when
Speaker 5: you talked about Honore Farmers on this podcast. You call
Speaker 5: a farmer out, he's just gonna dig in right.
Speaker 3: Well, it's funny because everybody brings water bottles. Now, this
Speaker 3: generation is obsessed with hydration. I mean back when I
Speaker 3: was a kid and Dad you'd be the same.
Speaker 1: I mean we watered like cattle, like once a day.
Speaker 4: You know.
Speaker 3: And uh, and now everybody has like huge water bottles,
Speaker 3: Stanley cub this is acceptable in my book, like just
Speaker 3: like a like a jar, you know, rather than a
Speaker 3: big water bottle or something.
Speaker 5: So he tastes better out of a jar. But I agree.
Speaker 3: Spence is a farmer and he uh, he's got he
Speaker 3: kind of had some insight into the the farm side
Speaker 3: of it. So wanted to have Spence here. But what
Speaker 3: I haven't told you, if you haven't figured it out already,
Speaker 3: is that, uh, there's a federal officer amongst us.
Speaker 1: Jeff works for the FBI. What what I do that
Speaker 1: Dad wouldn't have come if I Gary, what's your hiding? Gary?
Speaker 1: I drove from up here in thirty five minutes, so
Speaker 1: outside of my jurisdiction I can do about that.
Speaker 3: No, And I know we don't have to go into
Speaker 3: detail about it, but that's interesting.
Speaker 1: How long you worked for the FBI.
Speaker 4: It'd be five years this summer. Okay, yeah, so I'm
Speaker 4: I'm fairly new, you know, to the career as a whole.
Speaker 4: But it's been to call you kid Utah, Utah, give
Speaker 4: me to Kentucky.
Speaker 1: That's right now.
Speaker 4: But yeah, about five years and and like I said's
Speaker 4: how we ended up out in Oklahoma?
Speaker 3: Were you in law enforcement before? Like, what's the what's
Speaker 3: your career path? Tell you what, Clay, It's been an
Speaker 3: interesting ride. So, you know, me and Drew met in college.
Speaker 4: We both played college baseball at at University Louisville, and
Speaker 4: then uh graduated there, kicked around the minor leagues for
Speaker 4: a little bit, and then and literally was finishing playing,
Speaker 4: was getting married and to his sister and let me next.
Speaker 4: So I studied criminal justice in college, and then in
Speaker 4: twenty seventeen, I was just gotten engaged to Drew's sister,
Speaker 4: Chelsea and needed something to say at Thanksgiving other than
Speaker 4: I was going to go play independent league baseball again
Speaker 4: for you know, eleven hundred bucks a month for four months, okay,
Speaker 4: and so and so, you know, I was always interested
Speaker 4: in law enforcement. My dad was a police officer, my
Speaker 4: mom's dad was a police officer, and it's always.
Speaker 1: Been big in my family. So I looked into it.
Speaker 4: My dad had always mentioned, you know, trying to go
Speaker 4: the federal route, and so I started looking some of
Speaker 4: that up on USA jobs and I was like, hey,
Speaker 4: you can just apply for the FBI. I checked this out.
Speaker 4: So I kind of just did it on a whim
Speaker 4: and made it through the first couple of steps and
Speaker 4: then got denied, didn't get in. But the more I
Speaker 4: looked at it, thought, man, I think this is what
Speaker 4: I actually want to do. So I had to wait
Speaker 4: a year, Like I said, I finished playing baseball one
Speaker 4: more year, came back home, got into uh believe it
Speaker 4: or not, like trying to sell advertisements and tickets for
Speaker 4: a like minor league wrestling outfit.
Speaker 5: So if you look at this, watch Nacho Lebra for
Speaker 5: a birthday the other day.
Speaker 4: Okay, So if you go on Netflix and you watch
Speaker 4: there's a documentary called like Wrestlers or something or wrestling,
Speaker 4: and it's a documentary where they follow Ohio Valley wrestling. Well,
Speaker 4: a buddy of mine who had told me whenever I
Speaker 4: was done playing, you know, he'd offered me a job
Speaker 4: in medical sales, which is what he did, and I
Speaker 4: from my locker of my last game, I sent him
Speaker 4: a text and said, hey, dude, just finished up. I'm
Speaker 4: getting married in a month. I need a job, Like,
Speaker 4: is that still you still open? He said, yeah, come
Speaker 4: see me on Monday. So I did, and I'm expected
Speaker 4: like all right, we're gonna start talking about this whole
Speaker 4: medical sales thing.
Speaker 1: Well, now he says, I got a I got a
Speaker 1: job for you.
Speaker 4: He says, I just bought this minor league wrestling you
Speaker 4: ever heard of? It was like, if you follow wrestling,
Speaker 4: it's it's huge because like a lot of the greats
Speaker 4: from the old days came up through this Ohio yeah,
Speaker 4: Ohio Valley wrestling. And so it's looking at it on
Speaker 4: on Netflix is a pretty interesting documentary. You could see
Speaker 4: a little insight to to that world. But I did
Speaker 4: that for a few months and then he finally let
Speaker 4: me in on the medical sales side. And so I
Speaker 4: was in and out of spine surgeries for about a
Speaker 4: year and a half and then had reapplied to the
Speaker 4: bureau and and ended up getting in. Okay, so it's
Speaker 4: been a wild ride. Wow, here I am, Here, I am.
Speaker 4: Now you're a professional podcast scout here.
Speaker 5: It's not far from wrestling.
Speaker 3: I just know if you have anything else you Well,
Speaker 3: that's interesting, very interesting.
Speaker 1: So Dad, a guy sent this to you. We have
Speaker 1: his name.
Speaker 3: We get that little letter right there, the little handwritten letter.
Speaker 3: It's torn in half. Not don't know why.
Speaker 1: Get the top part. So Yeah.
Speaker 3: Jeff Dwyer out of Washington sent this to Gary Believer
Speaker 3: nukelem Wow and uh, man, it's so old that it
Speaker 3: has a plug that's like a quarter inch and has
Speaker 3: two little plugs.
Speaker 1: But it actually it used to work. You may get
Speaker 1: shocked it.
Speaker 5: It's disco lamp.
Speaker 1: It pretty much works. Unfortunately it was broken in transit.
Speaker 1: It cracked.
Speaker 3: He did a great job of packing it. But uh,
Speaker 3: do you mind if we keep this here? Though you can,
Speaker 3: do you mind?
Speaker 6: It's it's a lamp, but it's also like an ashtray, yeah,
Speaker 6: or an ashtray, or like a plan like put your
Speaker 6: bed in there, you put your pocket knife and your
Speaker 6: wall in there at night.
Speaker 3: Well, this is a throwback to the to the Black Panther.
Speaker 3: The first episode of Bear Grease. We did a We
Speaker 3: did an episode called the Myth of the Southern Mountain Lion,
Speaker 3: and at the end of it we talked about black
Speaker 3: panthers and not a week goes by. I'm without exaggeration,
Speaker 3: but someone doesn't send me something online about black panthers
Speaker 3: because dad believes in them. Yeah, just spurning the science.
Speaker 3: So anyway, you got a new lamp. I appreciate it.
Speaker 1: It looks like a work on This is just terrible.
Speaker 3: I mean it hardly even looks like a panther, but
Speaker 3: you can see his tail curled right here. I mean,
Speaker 3: like the person that made that, I mean, I don't know,
Speaker 3: but it's it's wonderful. So congratulations, than Jeff stylized, Yeah,
Speaker 3: thank you, Jeff.
Speaker 8: That was That's pretty awesome. And I never had a
Speaker 8: gift that I would treasure more.
Speaker 5: I don't think he wrote in.
Speaker 6: He wrote in and sent me a picture of it
Speaker 6: and said, I'd like to say this to Gary Believernewkam
Speaker 6: And I said, I got an.
Speaker 3: Address, will take it. And I had my believer head
Speaker 3: in the truck and I forgot.
Speaker 1: To put it on. Oh man, So anyway, that's very nice.
Speaker 3: Well, uh, the night Rider or Tobacco War of Tennessee
Speaker 3: and Kentucky farinating.
Speaker 5: So sorry.
Speaker 1: So would y'all have grown up knowing about this story.
Speaker 4: I didn't learn about it until, you know, I married
Speaker 4: into the family. I think my first trip to Princeton
Speaker 4: was actually during the black Patch Festival.
Speaker 1: Yeah, first time going down there.
Speaker 7: So Princeton still holds the black Patch Festival every fall
Speaker 7: and around the time that their smoke, fire and tobacco,
Speaker 7: and uh, I went to that festival ever since.
Speaker 1: I was really what do they do there?
Speaker 7: Oh, it's just they shut down main street. They have
Speaker 7: all kinds of little tints and things set up selling stuff.
Speaker 7: I remember when I was super young, we would always
Speaker 7: do like a frisbee contest where accuracy distance and stuff
Speaker 7: like that, So I was always geared up for that.
Speaker 7: They do pancake breakfast and serve the town.
Speaker 1: How big is Princeton, Kentucky?
Speaker 7: Probably four or five thousand people maybe something like that.
Speaker 3: Yeah, when you can you smell the dark fire tobacco,
Speaker 3: when it's smell like hickory smoker, does it smell like
Speaker 3: tobacco smoke?
Speaker 7: It's very very unique. I will say that you get
Speaker 7: the smell of hickory, you know, much like you you know,
Speaker 7: if you throw something in the smoker and put put
Speaker 7: hickory chips in it. It's a lot like that kind
Speaker 7: of smell. But it does have a have a distinct smell.
Speaker 1: Because I get I mean, the tobacco is not burning.
Speaker 7: No, no, it's not. It's the woods are the wood
Speaker 7: on the bottom of the of the floor of the
Speaker 7: barn are covered with sawdust and it's just that smoke
Speaker 7: that rises up.
Speaker 1: And did you have family that grew tobacco?
Speaker 7: Nope, nope, no, No, I don't have any. We don't
Speaker 7: have any other than Western Oklahoma. We don't have any
Speaker 7: farmers out in our family.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 5: I went to basic with the guy that their family
Speaker 5: grew tobac I was thinking about it, and I'm not
Speaker 5: sure it just in Kentucky, isn't it. A big old
Speaker 5: dude name wrecked in He'd talk about going in the
Speaker 5: tobacco patch and if it was wet, like they'd get
Speaker 5: sick like when they worked it. I guess because the nicotine.
Speaker 5: So anyway, oh really it was like brushing up against them. Yeah,
Speaker 5: I guess just working in the You can't go in
Speaker 5: there when it's wet. But I just randomly remember that
Speaker 5: the other day listening to this m M.
Speaker 1: That's my interesting It used to be all over too,
Speaker 1: I mean even in there. I can recall I grew.
Speaker 4: Up in basically in the city in Louisville, and so
Speaker 4: there would be times where you'd drive through and you'd
Speaker 4: see patches of open land, you know, within city limits,
Speaker 4: where people were growing to back it in and.
Speaker 1: It just in your lifetime. Absolutely. Yeah.
Speaker 4: I remember in fourth grade it was still like that's
Speaker 4: the grade in Kentucky where you learn all about Kentucky
Speaker 4: history and all that. And I remember learning that that
Speaker 4: was like the number one cash crop.
Speaker 1: Huh back then, I doubt it is now. I'm sure
Speaker 1: it's no is it? So?
Speaker 4: I mean it's always been huge, you know, It's Kentucky's
Speaker 4: kind of funny.
Speaker 1: We were just known for man's vices like tobacco, bourbon,
Speaker 1: and horse racing. You know, if you want to, if
Speaker 1: you want to, you know, get drunk, have a cigarette,
Speaker 1: and horses.
Speaker 7: It is a one stop.
Speaker 1: Shot man I started.
Speaker 3: You know, I don't think they grew a lot of
Speaker 3: tobacco here in the Ozarks. It's certainly I think it
Speaker 3: was grown at times, but this was not known for that.
Speaker 3: I really started learning about tobacco when I started going
Speaker 3: to East Tennessee and uh running around with Roy Clark
Speaker 3: whose gouy that Roy's still alives in the seventies, and uh,
Speaker 3: they they had tobacco allotments. They just sold their tobacco allotments,
Speaker 3: as I understand it, in the last twenty years. But
Speaker 3: but you know, that's that's the way it went that,
Speaker 3: I don't know if you knew it. We didn't really
Speaker 3: get into the modern tobacco stuff. But back in the day,
Speaker 3: just people grew it and there wasn't a lot of regulation.
Speaker 3: But after after about the time of the Tobacco Wars,
Speaker 3: and a lot of federal regulation came in on the
Speaker 3: tobacco market and they started doing allotments for tobacco and
Speaker 3: and basically the government would say, like, you can grow
Speaker 3: five acres or tobacco period every year, but you could
Speaker 3: sell your allotment to a farmer. And so if you
Speaker 3: didn't want to grow it, is that am I?
Speaker 1: Is this right? Do y'all Do y'all know some of
Speaker 1: that stuff?
Speaker 7: Yeah, so my grandfather knows obviously a little bit more
Speaker 7: about the allotment. But but from what I've gathered, that's
Speaker 7: that sounds pretty accurate.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, And so Roy Clark grew up. And now they
Speaker 3: call it backer. I'm sure that's I can't believe I
Speaker 3: went through this whole episode without saying backer, But that's
Speaker 3: the way they say it in East Tennessee. Like, yeah,
Speaker 3: they're not joking or trying to be cute.
Speaker 1: It's just it's backerbacker or tobacco, tobacco, tobacco.
Speaker 7: Bill Comingham said it several times.
Speaker 1: Tobacco, tobacco, yeah, tobacco. Yeah.
Speaker 3: But uh but you know Roy was in his lifetime
Speaker 3: plowing with a with a horse like hand, plowing tobacco.
Speaker 3: But it was such a convenient crop because you could
Speaker 3: grow a small acreage and make that much money.
Speaker 1: Yeah, which was astonishing. I did.
Speaker 3: We had a couple of corrections on this episode, and
Speaker 3: one of them there was a modern tobacco farmer that
Speaker 3: told me, actually, the the the yield ton per acre
Speaker 3: yield that we said was way off. We said it
Speaker 3: was four thousand pounds per acre, and he said even
Speaker 3: today in like the best case.
Speaker 1: Scenario, you don't get that much. He said, you get
Speaker 1: like two thousand.
Speaker 3: So anyway, but point bing, you could grow a small
Speaker 3: amount of the of tobacco and it just had this
Speaker 3: enormous value. And I mean when you start doing the
Speaker 3: and you see that, you could almost like if you
Speaker 3: were just a subsistence guy making well from what Joe
Speaker 3: Scott said twenty five cents a day to a dollar
Speaker 3: a day, Doctor Murdoch said, you can make a dollar
Speaker 3: a day. Joe Scott was talking about making twenty five
Speaker 3: cents a day.
Speaker 1: Did y'all hear that?
Speaker 3: And so essentially you're making that range of money for
Speaker 3: just an uneducated labor and then you could like double
Speaker 3: your income by having three or four acres or tobacco. Yeah,
Speaker 3: and you just you kind of get the sense of
Speaker 3: how important that would be.
Speaker 5: Yeah, you know, and moving from subsistence to like where
Speaker 5: you can actually buy things. Yeah, that's one of the
Speaker 5: problems on a fund is you can produce a lot,
Speaker 5: but converting it into cash is a big deal, you know.
Speaker 5: And I don't know that was just I understand why
Speaker 5: where they're coming from, you know, like just to have
Speaker 5: something you can grow and just there's a ready set market.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 5: It just that kind of thing is extremely rare. An egg, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, so, especially on that small of a acreage.
Speaker 5: It's just I understand, like a lot of white people
Speaker 5: got upset and blood and all that stuff. You know,
Speaker 5: Like it really was kind of a unique situation. Yeah,
Speaker 5: compared to like cotton or something else where, you know,
Speaker 5: by that you need so much land to do it
Speaker 5: and the labor. You know, a small family could, like
Speaker 5: you said, double their income and he gave all the
Speaker 5: like put a calico dress for Easter and you have
Speaker 5: shoes and yeah in that, Like, I don't know, it's
Speaker 5: just it's kind of a unique situation.
Speaker 1: He's really cool to hear about.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I think I'll start off by just asking you guys,
Speaker 3: what stood out to you? Jeff, I might start with
Speaker 3: you just like the whole podcast, because there's a hundred
Speaker 3: things I want. I want to talk about the Joe
Speaker 3: Scott interview. Uh, I want to talk about Bill Cunningham.
Speaker 3: I mean, there's a whole there's one hundred different things
Speaker 3: want to talk about. But usually that's what we did
Speaker 3: is just kind of like go around the room and
Speaker 3: just be like what stood out to you? What was
Speaker 3: your favorite thing or something new you learned? But what's
Speaker 3: that to you?
Speaker 4: Jeff, tell you what, man, I think the biggest thing
Speaker 4: is it's you know, I think I said this when
Speaker 4: of our first sent it to you all.
Speaker 1: It's such a challenging story.
Speaker 4: You know, you have these people who felt like they were,
Speaker 4: you know, being taken advantage of, and by all means
Speaker 4: they were, and so they you can't blame them for
Speaker 4: wanting to you know, eventually, like you're saying, eventually getting
Speaker 4: to the point where there's bloodshed because they're upset. But
Speaker 4: I think I sent you all the email to this
Speaker 4: thing after I read the first chapter of that book
Speaker 4: and the way it had always been painted to me
Speaker 4: was obviously from the local standpoint of who the Night
Speaker 4: Writers were, why they were standing up against Duke. Well,
Speaker 4: if you read the first chapter of that book, I
Speaker 4: mean he was an American success story too.
Speaker 1: Yeah, you know, his daddy lived home from the Civil
Speaker 1: War too. I think he had lost his wife. You know,
Speaker 1: they were kids, were living with either an ann or an.
Speaker 4: Uncle something like that, and all they had was one
Speaker 4: mule in a patch of tobacco, you know what I mean.
Speaker 3: And that was Washington Duke, James James Buck, Duke's dad.
Speaker 4: Exactly who became in Buck and and Buck hops on
Speaker 4: the trailer behind the mule and they go start selling
Speaker 4: this tobacco. And next thing, you know, you know, Buck
Speaker 4: is growing this thing, and he's moving to New York
Speaker 4: and he's the you know, he's the rebel now in
Speaker 4: New York City trying to make a name for himself.
Speaker 1: And so you know, in America we celebrate that person too. Yeah.
Speaker 4: Yeah, But then at what point does it become where
Speaker 4: it gets too much, and that's where you saw Washington Duke.
Speaker 4: You know, there's a quote he has in the book
Speaker 4: where he says something along the lines of, you know,
Speaker 4: there's two or three things I've never understood in this world.
Speaker 1: The Trinity and my son, my son Buck is that
Speaker 1: I remember that?
Speaker 4: And you know he says he says that, and it
Speaker 4: goes you know, and Judge Cunningham mentioned the same thing
Speaker 4: in there that you know, a successful entrepreneur sometimes is
Speaker 4: in the DNA. And so you have this guy who
Speaker 4: built this company up and probably reached a point where
Speaker 4: he could have started giving back. And you know, at
Speaker 4: some point in his career he he forgot what it
Speaker 4: was like to be the farmer and to be the
Speaker 4: guy grinding every day. But then you also have this
Speaker 4: other side. And what challenges me is you have a
Speaker 4: guy like David Amos, where you know, I hate to
Speaker 4: say it, like this guy, I haven't had this thought
Speaker 4: till recently, but I go, this was an educated man
Speaker 4: who rallied up a lot of probably uneducated people to
Speaker 4: go do his bidding to Was he fulfilling a desire
Speaker 4: or dream to be this war general that he never
Speaker 4: got to carry out from his days and I think
Speaker 4: he went to like Hopkinsville Military School. Yeah, so you
Speaker 4: kind of wonder that, right, like was this two egos
Speaker 4: that ultimately were collide or is it even not that big?
Speaker 1: Am I overthinking that? You know what I mean? Like
Speaker 1: that's great. It's just a lot we.
Speaker 3: Don't really ever see really why David Amos did what
Speaker 3: he did, like that he never really tips his hat completely.
Speaker 1: I mean, uh, Judge Cunningham, who.
Speaker 3: I probably should have referred him as Judge Cunningham of
Speaker 3: the podcast, Sorry sir, uh I called him Bill I
Speaker 3: he he he kind of painted the picture of him
Speaker 3: being this uh well, it was just easy to buy
Speaker 3: into being this kind of guy that was just looking
Speaker 3: out for his people.
Speaker 5: With the freed slaves. He treat the freed slaves.
Speaker 4: Yeah, yeah, and it makes sense, and I think the
Speaker 4: way the book reads is that that's the case. But
Speaker 4: I don't know, you know, I just my mind started
Speaker 4: going there a little bit, and and that probably is
Speaker 4: partly to do what I do for a living. You
Speaker 4: you kind of try to examine both sides ago, all right,
Speaker 4: what's the motive behind this?
Speaker 1: But I can't help but think was that potentially part of.
Speaker 3: Well man, that's the that's the same thing that happens
Speaker 3: in every story we tell, like we we have in
Speaker 3: our mind a narrative that fits something inside of us.
Speaker 3: Because I was thinking the same thing, is like David
Speaker 3: Amos a villain or a hero and I honestly don't
Speaker 3: know still like what I think about him because it
Speaker 3: a story. Yeah, because he could have I mean, if
Speaker 3: you could have just met him and talked with him,
Speaker 3: you probably could have got a sense of does this
Speaker 3: guy really like feel sorry and empathetic towards people being
Speaker 3: take advantage of by this like corporate criminal or.
Speaker 1: Or was it was there ulterior motive vindictive?
Speaker 5: Yeah, if you saw him like a bunch of guys
Speaker 5: whooping up on someone with his kids screaming and his
Speaker 5: wife in their front yard beating them senseless.
Speaker 1: You'd probably it'd probably be pretty easy.
Speaker 5: To make a judgment, you know, and like there's some
Speaker 5: real violence in this thing.
Speaker 3: And then he absolutely had seemingly everything to do with that.
Speaker 5: Yeah, oh yeah, because I mean that was a whole
Speaker 5: organization and we're gonna have captains and you're gonna have
Speaker 5: squads and yeah, you know, I.
Speaker 4: Mean just and I guess that part where you and
Speaker 4: I apologies for cutting you off and on I guess
Speaker 4: that part's what what does it for him? It makes
Speaker 4: me go there because you know, it makes a point
Speaker 4: to mention that in the book of how this guy
Speaker 4: was raised and I think his daddy was a doctor too,
Speaker 4: So you go, is this one of you Do you
Speaker 4: see this in movies and all that where you see
Speaker 4: people who their family wants them to continue down the
Speaker 4: family line or what have you. But did he inside
Speaker 4: always want to be, you know, in this other world
Speaker 4: and now this was his opportunity to And that's speculation,
Speaker 4: you know, I mean, I don't know, but.
Speaker 1: Well, and it was said in the book.
Speaker 3: We didn't maybe we said it, but he he he
Speaker 3: idolized these Civil war military Yeah so maybe we said that,
Speaker 3: but uh yeah, no, that's that's a great point, Drew.
Speaker 1: What stood out to you?
Speaker 7: So first, phenomenal job on the podcast. I've heard, like
Speaker 7: I said, heard about this story since I was I
Speaker 7: was young, young, and and growing up in that in
Speaker 7: that area and region of Kentucky. These guys have always
Speaker 7: night writers have been idolized. You know, David Amos, he
Speaker 7: still has signs in cop Kentucky. I think Josh saw
Speaker 7: one of you know, home of David Amos. I mean
Speaker 7: he's still here, they're proud of Oh yeah, absolutely, And
Speaker 7: uh so I was always one sided towards towards the
Speaker 7: Night Writers. But then once you start having experiences you
Speaker 7: get older, you kind of are like, I don't know
Speaker 7: if they should have been. But as far as the
Speaker 7: podcast goes, what I really loved about it was the
Speaker 7: the book and I think I think Judge Cunningham talked
Speaker 7: about it a little bit, but you know, he was
Speaker 7: trying to be unbiased when he wrote the book. But
Speaker 7: that the last monologue of the second one where he
Speaker 7: really gives his expresses, his opinions and especially what he
Speaker 7: did for a career, his whole life, when you know
Speaker 7: he he swore to uphold the Constitution in the law
Speaker 7: and h to really get his his perspective on it
Speaker 7: all where he sympathizes with him but he can't approve
Speaker 7: of it. I love that whole, the whole last twelve
Speaker 7: fifteen minutes whatever it was, where he he kind of
Speaker 7: ran down his thoughts of it. That was a that
Speaker 7: was a really good perspective.
Speaker 3: Yeah, it was you know he he brought such authority
Speaker 3: on this subject. He was a perfect guest, like really
Speaker 3: he was in and we didn't get into his background
Speaker 3: a ton other than just I kept saying that he
Speaker 3: was a Kentucky Supreme Court judge. He was more than
Speaker 3: that though, I mean he was a Prime Court justice justice.
Speaker 1: Yeah yeah, yeah, yeah, but but.
Speaker 3: Yeah, him him saying what he said was like a
Speaker 3: pretty balanced view of it. And then his interpretation is
Speaker 3: conclusion of how kind of the country handled the situation.
Speaker 3: I wouldn't have thought of it because he said, he said,
Speaker 3: the the corporate criminal got dealt with and and you know,
Speaker 3: the monopoly was broken up. Excuse me, and uh, but
Speaker 3: also David Amos didn't get didn't even go to prison,
Speaker 3: which you know, you could look at that and say, well,
Speaker 3: that's being soft on a pretty hard criminal. But he
Speaker 3: saw it as kind of like this this balance. And
Speaker 3: then when he talked about jury nullification, nullification, which was
Speaker 3: a mistake that we made.
Speaker 1: Someone sent it in.
Speaker 3: I said, I thought Judge Bill Cunningham said jury notification,
Speaker 3: which didn't make sense to me. He said, he said,
Speaker 3: he said jury nullification, which that makes sense when a
Speaker 3: jury knows someone's guilty and basically just like, let's the
Speaker 3: guy off. And he was saying that that was like
Speaker 3: this kind of balance, which now that is the jury nullification.
Speaker 3: You could clearly see how that could be used in
Speaker 3: a good old boy system and totally be misused. But
Speaker 3: at the same time, sometimes somebody does something they don't
Speaker 3: really deserve what the law prescribes, and so it's you know,
Speaker 3: kind of a kind of a gray area, probably, but
Speaker 3: it sounds like it happens all the time and probably
Speaker 3: usually used in a positive way. But yeah, I liked
Speaker 3: it when he said he said, I've sent a lot
Speaker 3: of people to the penitentiary that.
Speaker 1: I sympathized with.
Speaker 3: Yeah, for some reason, that like gave a kind of
Speaker 3: like humanize the law almost, Like not that it makes
Speaker 3: any difference to the guy who's going to the pen
Speaker 3: for twenty years to know that the judge sympathized with him,
Speaker 3: but it makes you feel a little bit better.
Speaker 6: Interesting, how much faith you put in the judicial system,
Speaker 6: even if there were things like dream mullification, like that
Speaker 6: person went through the proper channels and was dealt with
Speaker 6: and now it's done, you know.
Speaker 5: Yeah, it was interesting.
Speaker 7: Well, and also we have you know, we have the
Speaker 7: book or we have the two hour podcast to refer
Speaker 7: back to. But at the time that the jury nullified,
Speaker 7: this was nineteen eleven and it had been over for
Speaker 7: two to three years, so, you know, in the way
Speaker 7: when I heard Judge Cunningham talk about it, he's like,
Speaker 7: we're just going to put it into this.
Speaker 5: It's done for me. Let's let's just move and bury
Speaker 5: the hatchet.
Speaker 3: Yeah, move on right, yep, Yeah, Spence, what stood out
Speaker 3: to you about it?
Speaker 5: There was a part where he was the gentleman. I
Speaker 5: get all the names mixed up, but the guy that
Speaker 5: was the Supreme Court justice, that's someone's grandpa.
Speaker 1: I apologize sisters, and my kids are the tall, blonde ones.
Speaker 5: That's how I go my life. But it's the just
Speaker 5: when he talked about like, you know the thirty there's
Speaker 5: that lady got thirty five thousand, and it's like, but
Speaker 5: Duke was worth two hundred million, didn't even know if
Speaker 5: he even knew of the tobacco war.
Speaker 1: Yeah. That was kind of a letdown, wasn't it.
Speaker 6: Yeah?
Speaker 5: And I thought about like Solomon when he's like vanity
Speaker 5: of vanities, All things are vanities, you know, and it's
Speaker 5: just like like, man, all this people beat, people ruined,
Speaker 5: you know, just these lifetime with terrible memories, all the
Speaker 5: towns burned down, and the guy that it was all
Speaker 5: fighting against didn't may not have even known it was happening,
Speaker 5: and just like, golly but it I don't know. And
Speaker 5: also just there, so there was that part of just
Speaker 5: like and I don't know what to do with that.
Speaker 5: Just it's a thinker, yeah, you know, like and you
Speaker 5: ask questions of like which side would you would have
Speaker 5: been on? And I would have been on the vigilante
Speaker 5: side as a young guy, but I wouldn't now because
Speaker 5: I change, like like looking at myself in the mirror,
Speaker 5: you know, I probably would have turned narc you know,
Speaker 5: like at some point the first time I watched some yeah,
Speaker 5: well just watching some guy get beat in front of
Speaker 5: his kids, Like that's not cool.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's one thing, you're fighting someone that wants to fight.
Speaker 5: But so I don't it just and I think it's
Speaker 5: like that with a lot of American history because it's
Speaker 5: our history. You know, It's it's complicated, it's not one side,
Speaker 5: it's mixed, and and I think that's what makes these
Speaker 5: stories so powerful, Clay, that you go about is it's
Speaker 5: okay that it's complicated because we're complicated when we're flawed,
Speaker 5: and a guy. You can respect a guy but really
Speaker 5: hate something he did, you know, and just like us,
Speaker 5: like there's things I'm ashamed of in my past and
Speaker 5: I hope they don't define me. Yeah, yeah, you know,
Speaker 5: so that there's that aspect. And then also just like
Speaker 5: I've been on the receiving end of something similar to this,
Speaker 5: and like pot guests, it's probably it's probably not that big,
Speaker 5: but you know, and I sent you a text to
Speaker 5: like man that it really hit home. And Carlo was
Speaker 5: my wife. We were sitting there, I was having coffee
Speaker 5: and when it it was really cold, and so like
Speaker 5: that's it's a great way to stay inside by talking
Speaker 5: to your wife.
Speaker 1: You know.
Speaker 5: It's in the teens. But and just like we were
Speaker 5: kind of reminiscent over that, you know, stuff that happened
Speaker 5: like a decade ago. And it is hard being an
Speaker 5: independent farmer, you know, and farming's just hard, and so
Speaker 5: much of like the you know, farmers are great folks generally,
Speaker 5: I mean, we're it's a slice of society. You got
Speaker 5: your dirt balls in that. But like there's a reason
Speaker 5: we romanticize them, like you talked about that. But it's
Speaker 5: just like I just feel like sometimes a farming community
Speaker 5: throughout the at least in American history, because I don't
Speaker 5: have a you know, I don't have a viewpoint to
Speaker 5: look at other countries. But Galy, like you know, like
Speaker 5: you were talking about there that two hundred million, what
Speaker 5: if he would have made a hundred million and all
Speaker 5: these other lives could have been radically changed, Like kids
Speaker 5: could have went to school with shoes on, and no
Speaker 5: one's towns were burned. But there's that thing that always
Speaker 5: just like you know, the average farmer gets five cents
Speaker 5: of a dollar or something, you know, like, and it's
Speaker 5: just that there it's so easy to extract from agriculture,
Speaker 5: and those guys so rarely get what's deserved from something
Speaker 5: that we all do three times or maybe more day,
Speaker 5: you know. So it just it's just a thinker, man. Yeah,
Speaker 5: this was really impacted analysis.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 3: I like what you said about a young you would
Speaker 3: have been a vigilanti, but an older you wouldn't have.
Speaker 3: And it's you know, the luxury that we have today
Speaker 3: is that we get to hear this whole story and
Speaker 3: we're not really emotionally involved with it. I mean, even
Speaker 3: if you're from there, you know, you weren't there during
Speaker 3: that time. And we can like you know, historical revision,
Speaker 3: we can look back on it and be be think
Speaker 3: we can understand it. There's stuff going on today that
Speaker 3: they'll be making, you know, Turkey groups podcasts about you know,
Speaker 3: fifty years from now that maybe we're a part of.
Speaker 1: You know, I think about that.
Speaker 3: It's like, what would be an equivalent today of something
Speaker 3: like this.
Speaker 1: It's but it's pretty extreme.
Speaker 3: I mean, violence is violence, whether it was done three
Speaker 3: thousand years ago or today in in the but but
Speaker 3: human nature is still the same. So people still still
Speaker 3: are violent and do crazy stuff even with the law,
Speaker 3: and perhaps it's perhaps it's less than it would have
Speaker 3: been anyway.
Speaker 1: Point being, I'm.
Speaker 3: With you, I think I think I would have sided
Speaker 3: with the farmers one hundred percent.
Speaker 1: But I would have hoped I would have been reason
Speaker 1: oh gotcha got the association farmers.
Speaker 3: Yeah, I really would have because I just would have been, like,
Speaker 3: you know, the corporation getting that much just seems unjust
Speaker 3: and what they were doing. But I think I would
Speaker 3: have been I would have been like, hey, there's a
Speaker 3: better way to do this, you know, And I would
Speaker 3: hope that's the best version of my interpretation, which I
Speaker 3: don't know if it really would have been true. But
Speaker 3: I also think that I also think going back to
Speaker 3: your question of did it really matter, and essentially Bill
Speaker 3: Cunningham's conclusion was that it really didn't. Like this, the
Speaker 3: black patch is like thirty counties out of how many
Speaker 3: maybe one hundred plus counties that maybe grow tobacco in
Speaker 3: the country.
Speaker 5: I don't know, it was, yeah, probably more than that,
Speaker 5: probably more than because Virginia and North Carolina.
Speaker 1: Yeah, in all tons of counties.
Speaker 3: I mean, maybe it's like I'm just guessing ten percent
Speaker 3: of the tobacco country might be the black patch maybe
Speaker 3: or maybe less.
Speaker 1: So, you know, how would this have.
Speaker 3: Affected these guys And maybe it didn't really affect them
Speaker 3: at all. James buck Duke wouldn't even known what was
Speaker 3: going on, But it seems like it did get the
Speaker 3: attention of the nation at the time, as was evidenced
Speaker 3: by articles being written in national publications. And you can't
Speaker 3: help but think that it would have brought attention to
Speaker 3: the powers that be that had the you know that
Speaker 3: we're changing some of these things. So maybe it had
Speaker 3: more impact than you would think to.
Speaker 5: Break up the monopoly and yeah, yeah.
Speaker 3: But then but I guess the main thing was just
Speaker 3: the economic factors, you know, that change, just like people
Speaker 3: started smoking more so just like the demand just kept skyrocketing.
Speaker 1: But all pretty wild?
Speaker 3: Did y'all think I did a good enough job of like,
Speaker 3: uh shaming tobacco users?
Speaker 4: As you bring that up, I think there's a story
Speaker 4: that you need to clarify that I would love to
Speaker 4: hear more. You said you've thought you heard the voice
Speaker 4: of God tell you not to not to anymore, and
Speaker 4: I've got to hear that story.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean and when I when I say the
Speaker 3: voice of God, I didn't hear the audible voice of God.
Speaker 1: But just and I'm very serious.
Speaker 3: I mean I was probably nineteen years old and uh,
Speaker 3: dip skull behind Juju and Pap Paul's back over here.
Speaker 5: Did you know, Gary?
Speaker 8: I knew, you knew I knew other things that you
Speaker 8: don't know that I knew.
Speaker 1: Let's hear I know. I maybe I can't tell you.
Speaker 1: Maybe I don't not tell you. I might tell you privately,
Speaker 1: do do no?
Speaker 3: Okay, Well, I'm very interested to hear what you because
Speaker 3: you don't know if I know anything else.
Speaker 1: As soon as you stop wearing tennis shoes, he knew.
Speaker 5: That the moment.
Speaker 3: No, no, but I just it was the time of
Speaker 3: my life when I when I started to just walk
Speaker 3: closer with God.
Speaker 1: And I just I mean, I.
Speaker 3: Literally remember one time driving down the road chunking a
Speaker 3: can of skull. I was littering, FBI, but I chunk
Speaker 3: can of skull.
Speaker 1: And uh.
Speaker 3: Official, and and I just knew it was bad. I
Speaker 3: just knew that, like, this is not someone wanted to do.
Speaker 3: So when I did the story, I'm kind of joking.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to glorify tobacco because, in a way,
Speaker 3: I mean, the the the agriculture and the farming of
Speaker 3: the tobacco is really cool. It's it's an interest, it's
Speaker 3: interesting tradition. But then when you when you dive into
Speaker 3: it and it's like, yeah, this is really like something
Speaker 3: the CD underbelly of of the world. I mean, you know,
Speaker 3: and I just don't. I just didn't want people to
Speaker 3: get the wrong idea. I don't view personally tobacco use
Speaker 3: is just like something casual that is like okay, I
Speaker 3: mean I have lots of great friends that chew tobacco.
Speaker 3: Probably people listening to this podcast and they should stop. So,
Speaker 3: I mean it's a period like so that's just the
Speaker 3: way I feel about it. Dad, what do you think
Speaker 3: is that?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 3: Hey, when you when you have your own podcast, you
Speaker 3: can be preachy.
Speaker 1: Sometimes you're an FBI am. I right, what's that? I said?
Speaker 3: You're you're an FBI agent. What I'm saying is right, right.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's all you man, You're I'm the guest here.
Speaker 1: I was looking for the FBI stamp of approval, Like.
Speaker 5: Dare McGruff the crime dog was that like back in
Speaker 5: the age.
Speaker 1: That's that's me. We're gonna have a branch of bear.
Speaker 5: My middle boy is like head over heels with hunting
Speaker 5: and all that stuff. So here in Clay like is
Speaker 5: a strong role model saying don't do tobacco. You know,
Speaker 5: like sometimes you have that kid and need I need,
Speaker 5: I need.
Speaker 1: A little like hand. So I could talk to these grown.
Speaker 3: Men and be like, I'm mister ferres Use, you shouldn't
Speaker 3: do tobacco.
Speaker 5: People are gonna have a lot of mixed emotions about this.
Speaker 3: I mean I do too, but it's just sometimes the
Speaker 3: truth hurts. But Dad, what stood out to you? Well,
Speaker 3: I tell you it was an amazing deal.
Speaker 8: But when you think about it, our country is made
Speaker 8: up of amazing deals. I mean, you can just take this,
Speaker 8: take the personalities out, and stick it in any place.
Speaker 8: You know, the way the Indians were treated, it just
Speaker 8: keep going all the way through. And uh, but I
Speaker 8: think about Mary Lou. Don't monkey with Mary Lou. Remember
Speaker 8: Mary Lou? I mean she was pretty. The women didn't
Speaker 8: like her, she was opinionated, the men didn't like her.
Speaker 1: And she ended up getting wealthy over this deal.
Speaker 5: And she pretty much put a shot to quite a
Speaker 5: bunch though.
Speaker 8: But she, I mean, she was the first step in
Speaker 8: stopping it, wasn't she couldn't you say?
Speaker 3: That's the way Bill described that. She was the first
Speaker 3: litigation against the night riders.
Speaker 8: So if you got something going, you know, you need
Speaker 8: to veer from Maryland. And then you think about our
Speaker 8: country being so new and young. I mean, it hadn't developed,
Speaker 8: We didn't have really strong unions. So they have vigilantes,
Speaker 8: so you know, I get upset sometimes with union stuff,
Speaker 8: but they really served a purpose in our country. They
Speaker 8: established the worker to have a voice. They didn't have
Speaker 8: a voice. Yeah, anti trust. I mean all it would
Speaker 8: have taken was a few years later and have a
Speaker 8: law passed where hey, if you get so big, man,
Speaker 8: we're gonna bust you up, and we're gonna take care
Speaker 8: of you. You we're gonna make sure think you know.
Speaker 8: So a lot of legal things that developed out of
Speaker 8: this that kind of put up a quietness on the
Speaker 8: I love the Vigilantis. When I was young, I used
Speaker 8: to think, man, somebody ought to take that kid right there, take.
Speaker 9: Him out behind the barn and juste us.
Speaker 8: But you couldn't do it because you might have five
Speaker 8: good ideas, but you could have four bad ideas, you know.
Speaker 8: So you need the law of the Constitution to come
Speaker 8: in and establish all this. And I think we did
Speaker 8: a great job of doing that to keep our country
Speaker 8: on track. And this story just absolutely puts a magnifying
Speaker 8: glass on all that because we didn't have a lot
Speaker 8: of that stuff established. And because of this and many
Speaker 8: other stories, you know, the law developed anti trust to
Speaker 8: break it up monopolies the unions have where the workers
Speaker 8: have voices and so forth.
Speaker 3: It was really insightful to me to hear Bill Cunningham
Speaker 3: talk about how this very issue has overthrown a lot
Speaker 3: of countries. Yeah, because you know, like when the government
Speaker 3: would and I feel like what he's talking about is
Speaker 3: like when the government saw that these monopolies had so
Speaker 3: much power and they came in and said, we're going
Speaker 3: to take some of that power away from you. I
Speaker 3: mean that's like a step towards communism in a way.
Speaker 3: I mean, it's like government control of business. But they
Speaker 3: did it just enough that it allowed people to still
Speaker 3: be massively successful without without it just you know, totally
Speaker 3: crippling their workers. So they kind of did it like
Speaker 3: just enough. And then yeah, the unions, I agree with
Speaker 3: what you're saying, like, you know, you kind of have
Speaker 3: sometimes the union stuff I don't understand fully, but it
Speaker 3: has helped a lot of people in the country. And
Speaker 3: so they just did everything kind of just right. That
Speaker 3: set America up for the next hundred years, which would
Speaker 3: you know, make us you know, so successful in many ways.
Speaker 1: And you had like it.
Speaker 5: They touched on it, and I thought it was really
Speaker 5: good because like if you back out a you know,
Speaker 5: sometimes you look at little something to get an idea,
Speaker 5: but you back out. And this story was playing at
Speaker 5: that time, like It was a really turbulent time, right,
Speaker 5: Like you had all the barons, like the robber barons
Speaker 5: or whatever, like Vanderbilt and all them. You had railroads
Speaker 5: going up. You had Upton Sinclair's the jungle with like
Speaker 5: people falling into pickle vats or meat packing plants. You
Speaker 5: had all the like the automotive stuffs, like where they're
Speaker 5: fighting cops and stuff and gunfights. You know, you had
Speaker 5: all the al Capone and you know, like Bonnie and
Speaker 5: Clyde and like that was all in this time period
Speaker 5: coming off the Civil War, the you know, Tulsa was burned,
Speaker 5: You had the sharecroppers and like desegregation, all these things.
Speaker 5: This country was just roiling and it's all messy, yeah,
Speaker 5: you know, and and and I think it's it's just
Speaker 5: sometimes it's just messy.
Speaker 3: And it could have gone a lot of different ways.
Speaker 3: It could have, and it kind of moved towards stability
Speaker 3: to some degree. And you know, there's different groups of
Speaker 3: people that would argue that it didn't and and but
Speaker 3: in general it moved towards stability, at least as you
Speaker 3: compare to other parts of the world, you know. But yeah,
Speaker 3: it's such a what I love about these stories. So
Speaker 3: this book I've got I've got uh Bill Cliningham's book
Speaker 3: right here. This book, as I understand that it would
Speaker 3: have been kind of a regionally known I mean, this
Speaker 3: wasn't like a New York Times bestseller, But it's a fantastic,
Speaker 3: fantastic book, fantastic story that many people outside of the
Speaker 3: Black Patch would have never heard.
Speaker 7: Haven't heard it?
Speaker 4: Yeah, Well if you do read, I would encourage anybody
Speaker 4: listening to read it because there's so much you guys
Speaker 4: just can't cover in a podcast. Like there's small little
Speaker 4: you know, anecdotes and different things in there about some
Speaker 4: of the other experiences that were going on out there
Speaker 4: that are just unreal, you know, and you really get
Speaker 4: that feel for how violent it was, you know at
Speaker 4: some points and you know, like he mentions.
Speaker 1: And you know, it.
Speaker 4: Was just disgusting there, like it just at some point,
Speaker 4: this thing became more violent than it probably was even
Speaker 4: intended on on becoming, you know, And I think that's
Speaker 4: we see that happen all the time in uh, you know,
Speaker 4: in history and in today's where people join in on
Speaker 4: something and then all of a sudden somebody else comes
Speaker 4: in to escalate it because they're not really worried about
Speaker 4: the mission anymore. Yeah, they're just looking to crack some skulls, right,
Speaker 4: And you had some of that infiltrated toros in there.
Speaker 3: Well, that and that was something that I'm glad you
Speaker 3: brought that up because I wanted to say that on here.
Speaker 3: You know, sometimes in an episode you just don't have
Speaker 3: enough space or time to say everything. But there was
Speaker 3: there was some accusation of the Night Riders being a
Speaker 3: racist organization because I mean, it would have been probably
Speaker 3: at the pinnacle of like klu Klux klu Klux Klan
Speaker 3: q klux Klan. You know, it's the k Ku Klux
Speaker 3: q q klux Klan, isn't.
Speaker 5: It kkk though it is according to the Ramones song.
Speaker 3: Has mocked me before over saying the klu Klux Klan you're.
Speaker 1: Taking was founded in your state, wouldn't it.
Speaker 3: Well, now, I don't know about that, but but there
Speaker 3: was there was. There was there was some talk of that,
Speaker 3: and basically in Bill's book, which is my source, they
Speaker 3: he was he had a section where he talked about
Speaker 3: how that there were a lot of African Americans in
Speaker 3: the association, not necessarily Night Riders though because that was
Speaker 3: a segregate a very segregated society, so they kind of
Speaker 3: like lived in different places. But as the thing went
Speaker 3: further and further, people would under the name of the
Speaker 3: night Riders probably do some stuff completely off mission, and
Speaker 3: so there probably was some racist stuff going on that
Speaker 3: kind of was like this overlap between you know, these
Speaker 3: groups of people. So that was something that was talked about.
Speaker 3: But then there were a lot of people guys that
Speaker 3: just kind of under the hood of a black mask
Speaker 3: just started doing crazy stuff that that had nothing to
Speaker 3: do with tobacco, but they were kind of lumped in
Speaker 3: with night Riders, so it wasn't just all this like
Speaker 3: really clear cut mission.
Speaker 1: That a good description, I think, No, I think you're
Speaker 1: right on with it. Yeah.
Speaker 6: Yeah, And a lot of a lot of bad things
Speaker 6: happen under anonymity, yeah, you know what I mean. Anonymity
Speaker 6: seems to be a fuel for fire sometimes. You know
Speaker 6: what happens all the time on the internet, you know
Speaker 6: what I mean, People even comments and saying horrible things
Speaker 6: that I guarantee most of them would never say face
Speaker 6: to face to another person. That was a kind of
Speaker 6: that time period's version of that where they felt the
Speaker 6: freedom to go do that. Maybe not freedom, but they
Speaker 6: felt the protection or just that anonymity to go and
Speaker 6: do things that they that do.
Speaker 3: You know what somebody should make fun of me for
Speaker 3: in this episode is how many times I said clandestine?
Speaker 1: Did you? Well?
Speaker 3: I just felt really smart when I said so. I
Speaker 3: think I just kept saying it. And I actually said
Speaker 3: it yesterday in like casual conversation with someone, if you
Speaker 3: They were like, what And I said clandestine just like secret,
Speaker 3: and they were like, that word makes me uncomfortable.
Speaker 1: But you just look square as should What are you hiding?
Speaker 3: Maybe the last thing I want to talk about we
Speaker 3: can continue to talking about. Certainly, something I wanted to
Speaker 3: talk about was the Joe Scott interview. So for a
Speaker 3: Bear Grease podcast and now going back to Jeff giving
Speaker 3: us this one like all watered up in a little bundle.
Speaker 3: We didn't know about Joe this Joe Scott interview, which
Speaker 3: to me is so cool. Anytime that you can reach
Speaker 3: back into history and actually hear someone that was there
Speaker 3: in an interview format is really unique. It reminded me
Speaker 3: of back in the late summer, we did a series
Speaker 3: on the formation of the Buffalo National River, which was over.
Speaker 1: Here in Arkansas.
Speaker 3: And in the in the process of interviewing these people,
Speaker 3: we'd we'd talked about this lady named Granny Henderson, and
Speaker 3: I found out there was this long interview with Grannie
Speaker 3: Henderson that essentially nobody had heard.
Speaker 1: I mean, somebody did, but it was very obscure like.
Speaker 3: And I was able to go into that interview and
Speaker 3: you could hear Grannie Henderson's voice, this woman born in
Speaker 3: the eighteen high hundreds, and hear her talking about her
Speaker 3: life and its super interesting.
Speaker 1: This was like that.
Speaker 3: And so this Joe Scott interview, he was ninety seventy
Speaker 3: years old in the nineteen eighties.
Speaker 1: Bill Cunningham interviews him.
Speaker 3: When Bill's a young man, Bill's in his eighties now
Speaker 3: probably he's think so Bill would have been in his forties.
Speaker 3: I guess he interviews Joe Scott and yeah, that's that's el.
Speaker 1: Primo l primo stuff, when you get to hear from
Speaker 1: the guy. And it was a long interview.
Speaker 3: It was hard to go through and pick out which
Speaker 3: sections to use, but I mainly just wanted people to
Speaker 3: kind of hear his voice. And Joe became kind of
Speaker 3: like this focal point of Joe as a night rider
Speaker 3: and he was doing all this stuff.
Speaker 1: I just couldn't quite put it all in.
Speaker 3: I didn't want to villainize Joe either for being the
Speaker 3: last guy and just being willing to talk. But he
Speaker 3: said the only thing that he really ever did in
Speaker 3: one of the raids was like shoot his gun in
Speaker 3: the air, like he was just kind of there.
Speaker 1: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Now he did insinuate that he was on some of
Speaker 3: the visits, but he didn't ever specifically say like I
Speaker 3: beat somebody. But if you think about it, an eighteen
Speaker 3: year old kid and they're just looking for warm bodies
Speaker 3: to kind of ride with them and just kind of
Speaker 3: be there, I have a feeling he didn't actually do much.
Speaker 3: He was just kind of present, kind of there. That
Speaker 3: was the insinuation I got because he never got super specific.
Speaker 3: But but you might, I mean at eighty seven years old,
Speaker 3: I mean you might not remember everything.
Speaker 5: But I think those are the things you remember when
Speaker 5: you're eighty seven. Yeah, like that kind of stuff, I
Speaker 5: think you remember it just like when you talk like
Speaker 5: war vets or whatever, like that's those are the things
Speaker 5: that are burned into your brain like you burn Because
Speaker 5: I think that was it hot Hoganville, Hope, he said
Speaker 5: he was there. Yeah, like, I mean that town burned down.
Speaker 5: You don't forget about burning down and down.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 3: They specifically asked him, they said, what did you do it?
Speaker 3: Maybe Hopkinsville, And he said, oh, I didn't do nothing.
Speaker 3: I just rode around on my horse and shot my
Speaker 3: gun in the air.
Speaker 1: A couple of times.
Speaker 5: Your house is burning down, you probably don't take that
Speaker 5: viewpoint of those.
Speaker 3: But then again, you know, you wonder how truthful the
Speaker 3: guy was being.
Speaker 1: I mean, here he is.
Speaker 3: It seems so not innocent, but it seems so like
Speaker 3: like it just was inconsequential him at his age talking
Speaker 3: about it. It's not like they're going to send to
Speaker 3: prison or something. But he was very worried about that. Actually,
Speaker 3: you know, there were parts of the episode when he
Speaker 3: was like, maybe I shouldn't be talking.
Speaker 1: But interesting.
Speaker 8: View of this would be what would have happened back
Speaker 8: then had doctor Amos had not been there with his
Speaker 8: leadership skills, you know it probably he would have just
Speaker 8: floundered around and the same thing would have happened. It
Speaker 8: would just taken a different route, probably a better route,
Speaker 8: I don't know, probably a better route. Yeah, yeah, so
Speaker 8: the way to handle it, as you look back, would
Speaker 8: be through the courts.
Speaker 9: Hey, we got this big guy out here that's monkeying
Speaker 9: with us. Let's let's levelize the playing field. This isn't fair,
Speaker 9: you know. And they didn't have those tools to go to.
Speaker 9: The only tool they had was, yeah, in a vigilanti stuff.
Speaker 5: Well, because the courts, you ain't gonna win against a
Speaker 5: guy with two hundred million dollars. I mean, like that's
Speaker 5: the that's also part of the American experience.
Speaker 1: And when you don't even have money.
Speaker 5: To buy for your kids, you know, or the time,
Speaker 5: and you need to be working.
Speaker 8: And well, what they did was probably what they sort
Speaker 8: of had to do. I mean, they didn't have avenues
Speaker 8: like we have today. So it's just like you just
Speaker 8: fold up, fold your tents up, let them take advantage
Speaker 8: of you, or we're going to fight.
Speaker 4: It's hard to judge somebody from a position you've never
Speaker 4: been in. And I think that's that's part of what
Speaker 4: you know, Judge Cunningham was getting to when he says
Speaker 4: he I've sent people to the pen that I.
Speaker 1: Had empathy for.
Speaker 4: And you know, in our line of work, it's you
Speaker 4: see it every day too. I mean, I remember my
Speaker 4: dad telling me, you know, when I was a kid,
Speaker 4: that you know, in police work and in law enforcement,
Speaker 4: the vast majority of people that you're going to interact with,
Speaker 4: they got themselves caught up in something they never meant
Speaker 4: to get caught up in. And there's there's plenty of
Speaker 4: people that it's all they've ever known. Sometimes it's a
Speaker 4: lifestyle of all they've ever known, or like Cunningham said,
Speaker 4: you know, I knew the guy's dad. I knew his
Speaker 4: dad was abusing him his whole life. And you have
Speaker 4: empathy for people, and it doesn't make it right. They
Speaker 4: broke the law, but you're a human being, and that's
Speaker 4: that's what's going to happen, you know. And so I
Speaker 4: think it's it's hard to make a judgment on somebody
Speaker 4: for any kind of situation if you've never been in
Speaker 4: it yourself. And that's something I you know, I think
Speaker 4: that's I think that's what this podcast does so well.
Speaker 4: And you guys did it with this story. And as
Speaker 4: a Kentuckian, I'm honored that you all did it. But
Speaker 4: it's you know, the beauty of this this deal that
Speaker 4: you all have going on here. Mans You make people think,
Speaker 4: and we are constantly in the today's world just find
Speaker 4: ourselves and echo chambers and never having to think critically.
Speaker 4: And you have to remember, man, life is just history
Speaker 4: is messy.
Speaker 1: Life is messy.
Speaker 4: There is not a single thing out here that any
Speaker 4: of us, you know, in my opinions, there's been one
Speaker 4: perfect person walk this earth, and we put him on
Speaker 4: a tree, you know what I mean.
Speaker 1: And so.
Speaker 4: You know, I think it's just you guys do such
Speaker 4: a good job of that of causing your listeners to
Speaker 4: think about it a go, man, what how do you
Speaker 4: digest this story? And how do you see both sides
Speaker 4: of it and then come to your best.
Speaker 7: Well and to piggyback off that, not only do we
Speaker 7: not know what life was like in that time being
Speaker 7: a farmer who was getting taken advantage of by this trust,
Speaker 7: but much like Joe Scott, I can't tell you what
Speaker 7: I would have done if somebody would have came to
Speaker 7: my to my house, stuck a gun in my face
Speaker 7: and said, let's go yeah.
Speaker 1: I mean, that's the best line from it.
Speaker 7: Yeah, from that, from that point on, I'm probably like,
Speaker 7: let's go yeah, I mean, And you know, you think
Speaker 7: about the night Writers, and a lot of times the
Speaker 7: night Writers and the association will get put one in
Speaker 7: the same. But you had twenty five thousand members of
Speaker 7: an association and at most probably five hundred night writers,
Speaker 7: So you're talking two percent of this massive, you know,
Speaker 7: association that a lot of times will get tied in together.
Speaker 7: And as we heard later on, as they continued with
Speaker 7: the raids and then some of the beatings and stuff,
Speaker 7: it probably wasn't even association stuff that they do. So
Speaker 7: but you know, I've never had somebody point a gun
Speaker 7: at me and tell me to do something, but I
Speaker 7: can imagine that give me to react a little bit different.
Speaker 3: Well, that's exactly what Joe Scott's answer wasn't it. When
Speaker 3: they say he said why did you join the Night Riders?
Speaker 3: He gave such a great, pointed, clear answer. He said,
Speaker 3: what would you do if they took a gun in
Speaker 3: your face and told.
Speaker 1: You to go? You probably go, let's go where.
Speaker 5: But it's not just random people either, it's your neighbors
Speaker 5: or the holler yeah, you know, like it's if you
Speaker 5: say no, well you're going to be looking over your
Speaker 5: back for a long time. Right next to this, it
Speaker 5: is your community.
Speaker 1: Clear too.
Speaker 3: Why these guys weren't getting in trouble because you know,
Speaker 3: when I when we first got to that point in
Speaker 3: the podcast where we're talking about they couldn't prosecute these guys,
Speaker 3: Like in some world you'd kind of be like, well, why,
Speaker 3: how the heck could they not prosecute them? They're doing
Speaker 3: all this criminal activity, But oh gosh it, you would
Speaker 3: have been you'd been narking on your on, on your family,
Speaker 3: on your neighbors, and man, part of the here's one
Speaker 3: thing that I thought about when like, what would I
Speaker 3: have done? I think in the right scenario, you could
Speaker 3: have just navigated yourself out of the situation and not
Speaker 3: been on either side. I mean, I don't know how,
Speaker 3: but I know in my life I do that a lot.
Speaker 1: But where would you?
Speaker 5: Where would you?
Speaker 1: No?
Speaker 3: But in a in a I don't know, I don't
Speaker 3: know the answer, but I just I just feel like
Speaker 3: you can, you could, you could, you could just like
Speaker 3: slide under the radar. I just don't know that I
Speaker 3: would have been the guy that had been coming to
Speaker 3: beat because I was making a big deal about selling
Speaker 3: to the to the to the Duke Trust. But also
Speaker 3: I don't know, there's ways to do it like, there's
Speaker 3: there's there's there's social ways to not be a target.
Speaker 7: You know.
Speaker 6: I was thinking about too. I was thinking about too
Speaker 6: because Duke hadn't probably i mean likely had no knowledge
Speaker 6: of the details of what was going on there, and
Speaker 6: I had to think about, like what was causing them
Speaker 6: to drop price, you know, to start paying paying I mean,
Speaker 6: you must have had these regional buyers that were making
Speaker 6: on the fly decisions about what they were going to
Speaker 6: pay people, and they were the ones who were really
Speaker 6: beating up on them, you know, financially and it you know,
Speaker 6: a lot of that stuff was probably had to do
Speaker 6: with that middle management, you know what I mean, these
Speaker 6: guys that are how are we going to get the
Speaker 6: best price for this tobacco? And without this big oversight
Speaker 6: of the Duke, the Big Duke trust and so it's
Speaker 6: you have to be able to to see the small
Speaker 6: details of this. And this was their this was their
Speaker 6: best response was to create this Planner's Protection Association and
Speaker 6: to fight this what they what they perceived as greed.
Speaker 6: So you know, there's just so many, so many minute
Speaker 6: things that you just don't know about. To say who
Speaker 6: the good guys are bad guys I think that's what
Speaker 6: the title of the of the podcast bred lines Good
Speaker 6: Guys Versus Bad Guys, I think is really fitting because
Speaker 6: it's it is hard to know, you know what I mean.
Speaker 6: And I think that I think that bleeds over into
Speaker 6: a lot of the a lot of the the things
Speaker 6: that we deal with, even in modern times. You know,
Speaker 6: it's so easy to jump on a bandwagon and not
Speaker 6: know the details of a situation. And I think, you know,
Speaker 6: probably people in New York would have had they heard
Speaker 6: about this, they would have said, you know that you
Speaker 6: got these rebellious farmers down there just doing these horrible things,
Speaker 6: and then you've got these small, small town farmers saying,
Speaker 6: you know, we got we're getting taken advantage of. And
Speaker 6: I think it I think it has to cause people
Speaker 6: to stop and evaluate and to like try to learn more.
Speaker 6: You know, I think about political situations. I think about
Speaker 6: you know, how how things are perceived there. You can't
Speaker 6: just like you talked about echo chambers or talked about
Speaker 6: echo chambers, you can't just listen to an echo chamber.
Speaker 6: You have to really be on your guard for what
Speaker 6: you hear and what you believe.
Speaker 3: Let's play trivia. Yeah, we got We're gonna end with
Speaker 3: trivia here.
Speaker 1: Does that sound good?
Speaker 3: You guys think you're all black patch expert? Let me
Speaker 3: why his hand out boards. I want to clarify what
Speaker 3: I said a minute ago. Basically, what I was saying
Speaker 3: was you don't have to pick. You don't have to
Speaker 3: be in every fight that's being fought.
Speaker 5: Yeah.
Speaker 3: Yeah, because when I said you can navigate around something,
Speaker 3: an old believer said, what that's what I mean. It's like,
Speaker 3: you don't have to you don't have to fight every fight.
Speaker 5: Why is the serpents harmless as doves?
Speaker 1: There you go, there you go, there you go.
Speaker 3: All right, We're gonna play a little trivia. Josh has
Speaker 3: seven questions. The winner gets the panther lamp. Not true,
Speaker 3: not true, We're keeping that one.
Speaker 5: Everybody's wives just breathed a sigh of relief. You got
Speaker 5: one from me there.
Speaker 1: Yes, hey, I tell you what. Here's what I am
Speaker 1: gonna do.
Speaker 3: This is this is this is this, this is what we're
Speaker 3: doing on this this episode. The winner of this trivia,
Speaker 3: which I'm not playing. I'm just gonna be commentating. When's
Speaker 3: this U Moultrie trail camp?
Speaker 5: Oh wow, Silas, I'm trying buddy.
Speaker 3: Stakes are high, stakes are high, and I can I
Speaker 3: can probably even get you, like a subscription from Moultrie
Speaker 3: to to to be able to run this bad boy
Speaker 3: because this is a cell camera.
Speaker 5: Is Josh ellable?
Speaker 1: He's already got something.
Speaker 5: Yeah, and Gary, that would be nepotism really.
Speaker 1: Down? Three?
Speaker 3: Okay, yeah, okay, So the Winter Winners getting a Moultrie
Speaker 3: Trail camp, all right, Josh?
Speaker 6: Okay, First for we got some questions that you that
Speaker 6: everybody should know. We got a couple that you really
Speaker 6: had to be on your game to catch.
Speaker 3: Could you use the one that I said was going
Speaker 3: to be on here?
Speaker 1: Were you paying attention? I forgot about it.
Speaker 3: I knew, I knew it. I knew when I said
Speaker 3: it wouldn't be on here. You can ask that I
Speaker 3: said on that, so I said this will be on trivia.
Speaker 3: Go ahead, carry on, we'll move through this prequel.
Speaker 5: Okay, big question? Who was the founder of the American
Speaker 5: tobacco company?
Speaker 1: Mmm?
Speaker 3: Don't be uh, don't be misled by Okay, go ahead,
Speaker 3: Christian lady, do you.
Speaker 1: Think people got that joke?
Speaker 3: And I appreciate it, Guys, I don't know that like
Speaker 3: my twenty year old son or nineteen year old son
Speaker 3: would have got it though they don't know what Christian like.
Speaker 6: There is no Okay, Terrell Spencer, Duke Duke, James Buck Duke,
Speaker 6: James Buck Duke.
Speaker 1: Duke. I put Washington, Duke.
Speaker 5: It is Washington.
Speaker 3: That's got to be the answer. Y'all are right, but
Speaker 3: Washington Duke.
Speaker 5: I think the more will back this out, the better
Speaker 5: for me.
Speaker 3: That's that's what I was gonna That's what I was
Speaker 3: trying to elude to my preamble. It's got to be specific.
Speaker 3: I don't even did we even say that on the
Speaker 3: podcast though?
Speaker 1: Did we say I? Actually, I don't know, should join
Speaker 1: a union?
Speaker 5: Okay?
Speaker 6: Second question, everyone should get this one. Who is the
Speaker 6: who was known as the leader of the night writers?
Speaker 1: This is come on that ship.
Speaker 5: Everyone should get this one. Okay, everybody should get a gimme.
Speaker 6: Okay, Drew was starting with you, David Amos, That is correct,
Speaker 6: David Amos, pH d, it's actually m D.
Speaker 1: Do I still get the points? Yes, Gary, Sorry, I
Speaker 1: just couldn't pull it up. Man.
Speaker 5: Okay, zero famous Amos. You think that's the same guy
Speaker 5: as a cookie guy?
Speaker 6: Probably no, there there's actually a story about that. I
Speaker 6: know the cookies are addictive though the office. Okay, here's
Speaker 6: a here's a bit of an obscure question that was
Speaker 6: mentioned in there. Okay, who was known as the Moses
Speaker 6: of the black Patch? That that one's some terrible games.
Speaker 6: I just need that one's a bit obscure.
Speaker 1: Yeah he was. He was only mentioned once. It's a
Speaker 1: tough question.
Speaker 6: We've got a couple of ringers in here, Gary, Okay,
Speaker 6: Drew Felix Felix Ewing, Felix Felix Ewing, Gary.
Speaker 1: Seinfeld Seinfeld.
Speaker 6: Felix Ewing is correct? Okay, people back in the black
Speaker 6: Patch or they're like what here's another question, Spence, you
Speaker 6: might remember this one.
Speaker 5: Thanks.
Speaker 6: What was the term given to those who would scrape
Speaker 6: plant beds as an intimidation?
Speaker 1: Oh, Spencer, get that?
Speaker 5: I don't wow remember the first word? No, I ain't
Speaker 5: cheating a man of integrity. Okay, Gary, we're gonna start
Speaker 5: with you.
Speaker 6: O hands hands okay, close, Jeff, hotteers, hotets, hototers, hotels.
Speaker 5: I think it's like a hostess.
Speaker 1: You buy them in the gas, some kind of icing
Speaker 1: on top of Yeah. Can I ask my question? Yes? Yeah?
Speaker 6: Okay, So wait, how many, Jeff you got you've gotten,
Speaker 6: he's gotten all that it has been three or four?
Speaker 1: Three? Three?
Speaker 5: That's four actually?
Speaker 1: Okay?
Speaker 5: So four three, two and a half two and a half, okay.
Speaker 1: Okay, okay. So my question is what was the original
Speaker 1: name of the night Writers? There there was?
Speaker 3: They were first known as the X but then they
Speaker 3: later became known as the night Writers.
Speaker 5: People scribbling here every time? See every time you say
Speaker 5: night writer, I think of the eighties? Car What was
Speaker 5: it that you could ask that? What was the nauld
Speaker 5: have been the bonus question? Mm hmm, Sorry, Silas, Who was.
Speaker 1: The star of night Writer? Tom all right? Already? Who was?
Speaker 5: Yeah? You think of magnum p that was it? Okay, Drew,
Speaker 5: I didn't know that was the question.
Speaker 1: He's from Princeton though.
Speaker 7: Prince Born born. I'm not from Jeff's.
Speaker 5: Jeff's.
Speaker 1: This is a judgment called Opossum Hunters.
Speaker 7: I don't know when we when did we? Did we
Speaker 7: just all come together and decide that, oh wasn't going
Speaker 7: in front of possum an It's too hard to say.
Speaker 1: I mean it was.
Speaker 3: It was a conference in eighteen eighty seven in Nashville, Tennessee. Gary,
Speaker 3: did you get anything powesome possum crew. The possum crew.
Speaker 3: You should get some points for that.
Speaker 1: Okay.
Speaker 6: Question number six, why did Joe Scott want to tell
Speaker 6: his story so late in life?
Speaker 1: What was the motivation?
Speaker 5: Why was he willing?
Speaker 1: Was he willing? That's a better answer.
Speaker 5: Story so late in life?
Speaker 1: I just mentioned a couple of times.
Speaker 5: Okay, Spence, statute of limitations.
Speaker 1: That might be the right.
Speaker 5: Drew everyone else was dead?
Speaker 1: Mmmm, same thing I put. Yep, everyone else was dead.
Speaker 1: That's all that is correct.
Speaker 5: Mm hmm. Okay, next question, we need to have another
Speaker 5: soils based podcast. Where did the mayor of Hopkinsville seek
Speaker 5: refuge during the raid?
Speaker 1: Mm hmm.
Speaker 5: From the God fearing men?
Speaker 6: Yeah, be specific. We're looking for a specific answer. Okay, Jeff,
Speaker 6: we're going to go with you.
Speaker 1: Coal shoot of the Baptist Church. Oh wow, that was specific.
Speaker 1: Baptist Church, Methodist.
Speaker 7: They's been to the Baptist Church down the coal shoot.
Speaker 1: Man.
Speaker 6: These guys are good, the Baptist the coal shoot down
Speaker 6: the coal shoot of the I think Baptist Church.
Speaker 5: Baptist Church, absolutely not the Methodist Church.
Speaker 4: He was.
Speaker 1: Anybody different than us was just the same. Any denomination
Speaker 1: I would have I would have said, that same thing.
Speaker 1: I've got nothing against the methods. Okay, lives, easy shot,
Speaker 1: right in the kidney.
Speaker 6: Our last question, what was the reported net worth of
Speaker 6: James B. Duke in nineteen oh seven, Spence, I like
Speaker 6: the confidence that you wrote that down with.
Speaker 5: I'm really I'm really calipari in this stuff right now.
Speaker 5: I'm right in the back of the conference man looking up.
Speaker 6: Okay, Spence will start with you. Two hundred million, two
Speaker 6: hundred million, two hundred million. They all got it, And
Speaker 6: for our final question, we have all right answers, Well
Speaker 6: done everybody, Yes, so excellent.
Speaker 5: 's our trivia.
Speaker 7: So Clay said, you know, two hundred million was an
Speaker 7: enormous amount of wealth back then, that's an enormous amount of.
Speaker 5: Wealth now, yeah, no doubt.
Speaker 1: I mean no doubt.
Speaker 7: I wouldn't mind two hundred million right now.
Speaker 1: I would imagine that would be like a billionaire today.
Speaker 1: He was, yeah, yeah, Okay.
Speaker 3: Closing down here the final little section of the podcast,
Speaker 3: we learned that James Buck Duke buys buys the name
Speaker 3: of Duke University, which probably, like when I read that,
Speaker 3: I had a tendency to be like, oh, come on,
Speaker 3: rich guyd there's probably a bigger story perhaps, or I
Speaker 3: wonder how.
Speaker 1: The people at Duke feel about Like, is that is
Speaker 1: that y'all might know? Is that a negative thing? Or
Speaker 1: is that part of their history? It's funny. I think,
Speaker 1: you know, he touches on it.
Speaker 5: Are you a Duke fan? I thought you were.
Speaker 1: I'm a little Yeah. We can throw Duke under the bus.
Speaker 1: I don't care what you did, man.
Speaker 5: Knowing from North Carolina.
Speaker 4: Over there, but it's you know, it's interesting he touches
Speaker 4: on it in the book that like when Duke first
Speaker 4: approached them about giving them this money and want to
Speaker 4: rename it, you know, it seems like it was a
Speaker 4: fairly devout like Methodist college that was.
Speaker 5: Called Trinity College.
Speaker 1: Yeah, and there it seemed like there was some administration
Speaker 1: that was like, you know, this guy's slinging cigarettes. So
Speaker 1: I don't think we can't take any part of this.
Speaker 4: And then I think it's just kind of funny, Like
Speaker 4: six million dollars I think the Lord gives does.
Speaker 5: He not like has called nullification?
Speaker 1: That's right.
Speaker 4: I think I think the Lord can overlook this one.
Speaker 4: How many more souls are we going to save? This
Speaker 4: is losing from here. But so it was kind of
Speaker 4: funny the way he touches on that, but that seemed
Speaker 4: to be his brother was was much more involved with
Speaker 4: that school and his dad and his dad right, and
Speaker 4: they both were fairly devout Methodists. I think I think
Speaker 4: that was why it was troubling to them as they
Speaker 4: watched Buck kind.
Speaker 1: Of take off with this, you know, with the corporation.
Speaker 5: And so it's interesting because you'd said that his dad said,
Speaker 5: the two things I don't understand are the Trinity and
Speaker 5: my son and then his son bias Trinity College.
Speaker 1: Yeah, it's just kind of like a full circle, full circle,
Speaker 1: it is, man, it's well.
Speaker 4: And then the way the book ends with in the
Speaker 4: way you ended the podcast, like, I mean, Amos's son
Speaker 4: goes on to be the first medical uh you know,
Speaker 4: professor medical professor for the like, it's unbelievable. It's just
Speaker 4: such a crazy story with such unique, you know, characters. Yeah,
Speaker 4: it's it's incredible.
Speaker 1: So who won? Jeff one?
Speaker 5: Jeff one?
Speaker 1: Did you did you miss one?
Speaker 7: I missed the first one? James Buck instead of oh well, patriarch.
Speaker 3: There, congratulations on this. Uh so, Jeff, you're gonna get
Speaker 3: a Moultrie edge too. Camera do you do you deer hunt.
Speaker 4: Yeah, so this will be useful to absolutely and I
Speaker 4: think I can hook you up with three on it
Speaker 4: though it's an edge two.
Speaker 3: Well this was this was actually my personal camera that
Speaker 3: and so the three is uh this is the third one.
Speaker 3: But uh but uh yeah, they're they're really good.
Speaker 1: That's awesome, man. I appreciate it.
Speaker 5: Undercover work too.
Speaker 3: Yeah, this is going to revolution. He's going to take
Speaker 3: that back to the FBI and they're gonna be.
Speaker 5: Like, what's that going to get?
Speaker 1: Like we've never had Yeah for about three times a pressure.
Speaker 1: This would be good.
Speaker 3: Thank you guys so much for coming. Man came all
Speaker 3: the way from Kentucky. Much appreciated.
Speaker 7: Thanks for having us.
Speaker 1: Yeah really and and thanks for the suggestion on the
Speaker 1: podcast man. Man, Like I said, I'm honored you guys.
Speaker 4: I was not expecting, first off, even to get a reply,
Speaker 4: let alone you guys run with it.
Speaker 1: But I'm glad you did. And it's been great getting
Speaker 1: to work with you guys and meet you guys through this.
Speaker 5: Man.
Speaker 1: It's awesome. And keep it up, man, people need it. Yep,
Speaker 1: thanks a lot. Guys. Keep the wild places wild because
Speaker 1: that's where the bears love. There's no criminals there and
Speaker 1: FBI is not there casually, Chick