Speaker 1: Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast.
Speaker 1: Today we had Bill kouron and thanks to his gracious time,
Speaker 1: this is another two part edition, so look for part
Speaker 1: two of the podcast to drop on Monday morning and
Speaker 1: enjoy part one. If you're new to the podcast, please
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Speaker 1: you've been a subscriber and enjoy it, please drop us
Speaker 1: a review.
Speaker 2: I'm miss the green, for example, I'm already upset.
Speaker 3: When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset.
Speaker 3: And when I find my ball in Arid Egg, Frida Egg,
Speaker 3: fridag Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the.
Speaker 2: Ladies and John Welcome back to another edition of the
Speaker 2: Friday Podcast. Today I'm joined by note of golf course
Speaker 2: architect Bill Core from the Core Crunch Out designer. Bill
Speaker 2: is design some of the world's greatest courses, including sand
Speaker 2: Hill's Friar Head, Friar's Head, Lost Farm and Garden Google Dunes,
Speaker 2: and today we're at one of his newest courses, sand Valley.
Speaker 3: Bill, welcome on, Thank you, indeed, thank you for coming
Speaker 3: out with has turned out to be the coldest day
Speaker 3: of the year. Here in Wisconsin, yes, as.
Speaker 2: Of Chicago, and I know the schedule after activities in
Speaker 2: Wisconsin and mid November. Unless it's plucked scheme right, I
Speaker 2: think that would have been maybe more at proposed than
Speaker 2: what we did. But I think getting a good thought,
Speaker 2: like a good first cold, and it's gonna set me
Speaker 2: up for what you're going to go back to warm places.
Speaker 3: Yeah, you're prepared. Your your introduction is over. It's down winter,
Speaker 3: so I want I want to kick things off.
Speaker 2: Something I've heard is that you consider Old Town Club
Speaker 2: to be one of the most significant courses in your
Speaker 2: architectural career, and just curious why why Old Town What
Speaker 2: about it is so significant? And you know his shape
Speaker 2: the way.
Speaker 3: You think, Well, Andy, I think it's it's primarily because
Speaker 3: I grew up in North Carolina, and so I grew
Speaker 3: up playing basically on very very well affordable courses. I'm
Speaker 3: talking very affordable, which meant they weren't necessarily at the
Speaker 3: top of the scale in terms of architecture usually, but
Speaker 3: I was also able to be exposed to courses like
Speaker 3: Pioneers Number two had like Old Town Club, and those
Speaker 3: two courses I think came together to form my understanding
Speaker 3: that probably became collectively they became the cornerstone of my
Speaker 3: understanding of what interesting golf course architecture was all about.
Speaker 3: So I was exposed to Pinehurst first, but then when
Speaker 3: I was at wake Forest for four years there in
Speaker 3: the Old Town Club literally being adjacent to connected to
Speaker 3: basically the campus, I would walk there with my golf
Speaker 3: bag in the afternoons and began playing golf. And the
Speaker 3: students can do that at the time for a dollar.
Speaker 3: They could play Old Town Club for one dollar. If
Speaker 3: you finned in, paid your dollar, and you played even
Speaker 3: the private club, but Old Town. The more I played it,
Speaker 3: the more I realized that it was just fascinating, and
Speaker 3: the more I began to think about golf architecture, and
Speaker 3: actually Udy got architecturally more, I began to realize how
Speaker 3: truly gifted Old Town was and what Perry Maxwell did
Speaker 3: there on that site.
Speaker 2: What was so special about what Maxwell about the different features?
Speaker 3: Well, I think first of all, it's a small site
Speaker 3: and it's quite hilly. So if you if you wanted
Speaker 3: to study how to lay a golf course on a
Speaker 3: fairly severe piece of ground, and you had a fairly
Speaker 3: small piece ground in terms of acreages, I know of
Speaker 3: no better place to do it than Old Town because
Speaker 3: of the way mister Maxwell laid the holes out across
Speaker 3: those hills and the valleys and made them working. Though
Speaker 3: they're in close proximity to each other, you don't ever
Speaker 3: feel like you're in danger, and necessarily when you're playing golf.
Speaker 3: He just did it in such beautiful fashion, and like
Speaker 3: so many things that when it's well done, it looks
Speaker 3: so simple. And so I played Old Down for a
Speaker 3: long long time before it finally struck me as to gee,
Speaker 3: how did you actually make this work? How do you
Speaker 3: get all these holes on this small piece of ground
Speaker 3: and make them work? And so from a routing standpoint,
Speaker 3: it's an extraordinary study.
Speaker 2: And example, you hear a lot of architects stamp like
Speaker 2: a moment where they know they want to be like
Speaker 2: you know where they can come into architecture and like
Speaker 2: whether it's playing a great course, Was it that whole
Speaker 2: time where you really had like an architectural awakening or
Speaker 2: did it happen before at timers as need one.
Speaker 3: Actually those two went together and said to form my
Speaker 3: earliest impressions of what really interesting golf architecture was about
Speaker 3: but no, it was actually after I had graduated from
Speaker 3: Wake Forest and I was about to go to a
Speaker 3: graduate school. A duke and Uncle Sam decided that I
Speaker 3: should make a bit of a detour. And so I
Speaker 3: had spent you know, two years in the Army and
Speaker 3: as I was about to get out, I saw a
Speaker 3: golf course near my home in North Carolina, in a
Speaker 3: town called high Point, North Carolina, and man by name
Speaker 3: of Pete and Iye was designing a course there. And
Speaker 3: the course was it was called oak Holl Public Health Course.
Speaker 3: And I had never heard of Pete Dye and I
Speaker 3: knew nothing about this golf course when somebody said, oh,
Speaker 3: they're building a golf course not so far away. And
Speaker 3: I remember when I was, you know, I had a
Speaker 3: weekend away there from the from the army, and I'd
Speaker 3: gone home and I went out to look at it.
Speaker 3: And it's when Pete was doing things very much like Harbortale,
Speaker 3: shorter courses, finesse, yeah, railroad sleepers, the whole thing people
Speaker 3: think about. And it was just fascinating to me. This
Speaker 3: was a course in the era of Robert trendyal Sor.
Speaker 3: And when I saw this golf course, I thought, oh gosh,
Speaker 3: that's kind of that's very interesting. And I think more
Speaker 3: than anything Andy, that's when out there that day walking around.
Speaker 3: The course wasn't open yet, but it wasn't too far
Speaker 3: away from opening, and I just remember thinking, I wonder
Speaker 3: how you do this? I love golf. I think I
Speaker 3: know a good course when I see one, But how
Speaker 3: does this happen? What's the process? And you know, having
Speaker 3: been away from school for over two years, it's that
Speaker 3: decision backing do I go to graduate school? And then
Speaker 3: I'm thinking, well, I'm single, I don't I don't need
Speaker 3: much money or anything I could. I might like to
Speaker 3: see how this is done. So I remember the guy
Speaker 3: who was out there watering. It was a little Sunday afternoon.
Speaker 3: Guy was at their water and of course asked him
Speaker 3: who did it. He said, I some man named Die
Speaker 3: and again didn't mean anything to me at the time.
Speaker 3: This was in nineteen seventy one, and I said, do
Speaker 3: you know how to get in touch with you? He said, oh,
Speaker 3: I'm sure. His names and the superintendent's rolodecks. And here
Speaker 3: we walked. He drove me back to making the shop.
Speaker 3: We walked in there and he takes the old fashioned
Speaker 3: rolodex where he turned around all the cards, flip cards
Speaker 3: with wooden names and dressing phone numbers, and sure enough
Speaker 3: he finds it. He finds Pete giving me his number.
Speaker 3: I began calling Pete, he said, badger him to see
Speaker 3: if I could get a job, just to see how
Speaker 3: this was deaf. So that was the moment.
Speaker 2: How long did it take together?
Speaker 3: Job? Quite a while? Actually, I mean I called Pete.
Speaker 3: He I remember, I blatantly made up a story that
Speaker 3: I was going to be in Florida, which I really
Speaker 3: didn't any reason to be in Florida. But as soon
Speaker 3: as I was going to get up get my discharge
Speaker 3: from the military, and uh, he said, well, if you're
Speaker 3: ever down here, you know, call me. So I just
Speaker 3: I made my way down to Florida after I was
Speaker 3: discharged in the military, and I called them and he
Speaker 3: he interesting enough, it was another of all things on
Speaker 3: a Sunday afternoon, and and Pete was he was a
Speaker 3: huge Miami Dolphins man. And this is in the time
Speaker 3: when the Dolphins were dominant, you know, the year actually
Speaker 3: I think that they went undefeated. She done you, Larry Zarka, Bob,
Speaker 3: These guys there, you know, it's just Pete was such
Speaker 3: a huge fans.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3: I think so. So. I remember calling, and you know,
Speaker 3: she had no interest whatsoever what I wanted to talk about.
Speaker 3: But I do remember. He said, where are you? I said, well,
Speaker 3: I'm at the whatever it is, I can't remember, some
Speaker 3: little hotel, hotel there on the beach. And he said, sure,
Speaker 3: I can talk to you. He said, I'll be over there.
Speaker 3: But what he's going to come over here? He wanted
Speaker 3: to watch the football game. He had a bunch of
Speaker 3: folks in his house. He came over there. I didn't
Speaker 3: know who. I didn't know what to look for. I
Speaker 3: didn't know I didn't know what he looked like or anything.
Speaker 3: I'm just asking people to be walking the door. You
Speaker 3: pe done. They don't want her? No, Well then he anyway,
Speaker 3: he walks in and he says, so you want to
Speaker 3: talk about Golfer? Because here I said yes. He said,
Speaker 3: all right, let's go to your room. What and so
Speaker 3: here we go to my room. He plops down in
Speaker 3: the bed and gets the TV face turns the football game.
Speaker 3: That's all he wanted to do was watch the football game.
Speaker 3: So he sort of absentmindedly talked to me while he
Speaker 3: watched the football game. So that was and then he said, well,
Speaker 3: we're eventually we're going to be doing a golf course
Speaker 3: up near all in North Carolina. Turned out to be
Speaker 3: the Cardinal Club in Greatsboro. He said, you can come
Speaker 3: out there and maybe maybe we'll find something for you
Speaker 3: to do. It was another year or more after that
Speaker 3: they actually started the Cardinal Whenever. He didn't remember me
Speaker 3: from anybody, I mean, you know, but he Hey, I
Speaker 3: was persistent.
Speaker 2: And serving immediate me. You you fixed his problem. You
Speaker 2: want to watch the Dolphins, and you're probably a great
Speaker 2: excuse for him to get.
Speaker 3: Out exactly he was able to sit there and watch
Speaker 3: the entire game. The game was over gone, you know,
Speaker 3: so uh, but it was. It was just one of
Speaker 3: those sort of odd things that happens.
Speaker 2: What you know, everybody talks about the railroad ties and
Speaker 2: then you know, people remembering for the TPC courses he
Speaker 2: built like they've been a regular fan. But like, what
Speaker 2: would you say is the most underappreciated aspect of Pete
Speaker 2: That's work as an architect.
Speaker 3: He changed the direction of golf architecture twice. Yeah, that's
Speaker 3: I know, no one else has ever done that for me.
Speaker 3: He started, you know, he first changed it with courses
Speaker 3: like Arbortown when Robert trip Jones Senior was doing the
Speaker 3: exact opposite doing, you know, Parsivy to seven thousand yard
Speaker 3: championship golf courses. That was the thing, that was the motto,
Speaker 3: that was the selling point, and Pete went to the
Speaker 3: exact opposite direction, shorter from the est course was quirky.
Speaker 3: He seen Ian Alice has seen the railroad ties when
Speaker 3: they played a lot in Scotland and thought, well that
Speaker 3: could work, we can do something of that. And it
Speaker 3: was just something that people in this country, unless they
Speaker 3: had traveled to Scotland or Ireland, they just weren't used to.
Speaker 3: So the fact that Harbor Town was so well received.
Speaker 3: I think the first tournament there was in nineteen seventy
Speaker 3: and I recalled Arnold potter Wood and so the fact
Speaker 3: that was so well received instantly put him, you know,
Speaker 3: in the public eye as far as the golf course architect,
Speaker 3: and pretty soon everything you saw started going in that direction.
Speaker 3: Well then when the TPC Jacksonville came in, which is
Speaker 3: many years later, but he changed it again completely there.
Speaker 3: So I know, I know, no one else's who has
Speaker 3: done that. It was actually changed. And once Pete did
Speaker 3: Harbortown and the finesse course type type situation, and then
Speaker 3: when he changed to the more challenging, longer whatever you
Speaker 3: want to how you want to describe it, TPC type course,
Speaker 3: the next thing he saw almost everyone was doing the same.
Speaker 3: It was just he he literally changes not just the direction.
Speaker 3: But if you watch the progression, you saw many courses
Speaker 3: appear like like Pete's early course at Harbortown. But then
Speaker 3: after TPC you saw many many courses appear that suddenly
Speaker 3: looked like that.
Speaker 2: Yeah, the architecture industry through time has changed so many times.
Speaker 2: It's very it's kind of crazy about for one game to.
Speaker 3: Do it lice. Yeah, I know no one else has
Speaker 3: done that.
Speaker 2: So a lot of people say that he died of
Speaker 2: penal art attack versus a strategic one. What would what
Speaker 2: would you consider.
Speaker 3: Being well And I think certainly I'm a bit partial
Speaker 3: to Pete Harbor Towns, the speak phase or finesse was
Speaker 3: a little more uh at the cornerstone of the golf course.
Speaker 3: And they think then they were extraordinarily strategic, playing to
Speaker 3: certain positions to get to other to get to angles
Speaker 3: and things. I think is Pete saw the game changing,
Speaker 3: meaning players eating about farther and farther and farther, and
Speaker 3: and in the I think is he then changed to
Speaker 3: try to challenge those those players at the TBC courses.
Speaker 3: They were still strate, they were certainly strategic for you know,
Speaker 3: the best players. They still wanted to play to certain positions,
Speaker 3: usually right next to some very visible hazard and uh T,
Speaker 3: you would always give you something to look at. There
Speaker 3: was always something in your eye as a player, and
Speaker 3: more often than I that you could play close to
Speaker 3: that you you had an advantage in some way. But
Speaker 3: you know, I think I think the analysis and the
Speaker 3: work that they've done through the years is this is
Speaker 3: some absolutely fascinating, fascinating courses. And yet you do hear
Speaker 3: about was very penal. I think a lot of that
Speaker 3: depends on what teams you play from. I think a
Speaker 3: lot of it, you know, is a situation. There's more
Speaker 3: the impression that comes from the tp C course type,
Speaker 3: famous of their of their architecture. So I see it
Speaker 3: as a strategic and penal book.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I agree, I think I wanted it. I just
Speaker 2: think I follow on the strategic size because and I
Speaker 2: grew up playing with the Dave Horse in Florida like
Speaker 2: all every family vacation, and you know, I still want
Speaker 2: to go there. It's all angles, and you know, you
Speaker 2: do have to be a little bit better for the player,
Speaker 2: but the strategy is so good and all that stuff.
Speaker 2: I had Brian Silva on the podcast a few months
Speaker 2: ago and he said he had an architectural awakening when
Speaker 2: he was sitting in a I think he was in
Speaker 2: a doctor's waiting room looking at us worst illustrated and
Speaker 2: he saw the arial PGA West and all of a sudden,
Speaker 2: the light bulb went off about the angles and how
Speaker 2: fundamentally change ad designed courses and not any architects going.
Speaker 3: To do that. So yeah, it's again, Pete. Allas were
Speaker 3: amazing with that and the thing they were able to
Speaker 3: do too, I think Andy's they could do some really
Speaker 3: unusual type country and whether you want to call it
Speaker 3: the mounds or even the you know, the railroad ties
Speaker 3: along the water, and then the certain types of greens,
Speaker 3: shapes and angles and but it's really abrupt things that
Speaker 3: people were necessarily used to seeing and yet they work. Yeah,
Speaker 3: it's very, very seldom uliarious, Pete die golf course, even
Speaker 3: a whole of the pee die golf course that doesn't
Speaker 3: function from a playing standpoint. And the other people who
Speaker 3: then said, oh, that's what's selling now, that's what I'm
Speaker 3: going to produce, never I don't oftentimes didn't have the
Speaker 3: same insight as to how you truly played golf within
Speaker 3: the confines of the golf course. And so you would
Speaker 3: see some knockoff models, shall we say, of TPC courses
Speaker 3: that that probably were far too people because of them
Speaker 3: that there was just probably not that bit of insight
Speaker 3: as to how will this actually play? How was this
Speaker 3: actually look like exactly visually because they might have mounds
Speaker 3: and pot bunkers and or water down the side or
Speaker 3: certain angles and things. You always not the same. But
Speaker 3: when it came down to the ability to move your
Speaker 3: golf ball through the golf course and be successful, a
Speaker 3: lot of times, you know, other people just didn't have
Speaker 3: the same insight that Pete did as how to make
Speaker 3: that work.
Speaker 2: So obviously, if he died and had a big influence.
Speaker 3: In your career, who would.
Speaker 2: You say, are some other like gold made architects that
Speaker 2: you draw in things?
Speaker 3: Well, again, having grown up in North Carolina, and been
Speaker 3: exposed to a lot of dollar Ross courses that I
Speaker 3: would have to say, mister Ross without a question, played
Speaker 3: a lot of his courses when I was a kid,
Speaker 3: and of course since then. But then Perry Maxwell because
Speaker 3: of Old Town and mentioned earlier about the genius of
Speaker 3: the routing of Old Town of a very severe, relatively
Speaker 3: small site. But the greens contours Old Town had some
Speaker 3: of the most amazing greens and with regard to internal
Speaker 3: contours and the hunting syrup of the Maxwell rolls as
Speaker 3: they were called. And at the time when I was
Speaker 3: playing in Old Town, I didn't I've never seen southern
Speaker 3: hills or prairie dunes or crystal downs or other courses
Speaker 3: that mister Maxwell had had designed, and so I just
Speaker 3: didn't know these greens are These greens are amazing and
Speaker 3: they're interesting, and they were so different than than other
Speaker 3: places should go because the con true were internal to
Speaker 3: the putting services. They weren't all in the edges, feeding
Speaker 3: down in and then disappearing in the putting services. These
Speaker 3: you might start quietly on the edges and then something
Speaker 3: a Maxwell role will appear use which you used beautifully
Speaker 3: to separate levels. You know, in the Green, So that's
Speaker 3: not Perry Maxwell and uh and Donald Ross and then
Speaker 3: of courses in as you go see McKenzie courses, I
Speaker 3: guess we've all. You know, they're so inspirational in their
Speaker 3: vision and the creativity, you go, wow, look at that?
Speaker 3: Whoever thought of that? And then you go see you know,
Speaker 3: see b McDonald or Seth Rainer things, and you go,
Speaker 3: I could ever think of that? Who have arethought? And
Speaker 3: uh so when you start putting it all comes into Lakers.
Speaker 3: But Ross was a very early layer, followed by Maxwell
Speaker 3: and then followed by you know others, but certainly including
Speaker 3: mckin So you.
Speaker 2: Could build like a super team golden major architects. You got,
Speaker 2: you got. You can have somebody do multiple taps. But
Speaker 2: you have somebody doing greens routing and we'll say strategy
Speaker 2: and another guy doing like a Senex and bompering. How
Speaker 2: would you put it together?
Speaker 3: Well? I don't know. And were those guys were all
Speaker 3: good at all those things? And I don't know that
Speaker 3: any one of them.
Speaker 2: Was.
Speaker 3: You know, I'd say it was the absolute best among
Speaker 3: the names you mentioned at any one of those. I
Speaker 3: think mackenzie certainly had a flair for the visual inspirational presentation.
Speaker 3: I mean it's just you go to his courses and
Speaker 3: just the visual h and of course a lot that
Speaker 3: has to do with the site team that he got
Speaker 3: to work with too. But I don't know that I've
Speaker 3: ever ever walked onto or off of mcken of course
Speaker 3: that you just didn't find the inspiring. And you know,
Speaker 3: having said that, the Maxwell courses truly truly extraordinary, or
Speaker 3: they maybe is visually inspiring as McKenzie courses. Maybe not,
Speaker 3: but I've never seen a Maxwell course. It wasn't well routed.
Speaker 3: But more than that, it was the greens. It was
Speaker 3: the green country. But can you say Maxwell's greens were
Speaker 3: better than Ross's greens were better than Mackenzie's green No,
Speaker 3: They're just different. That's what made the whole era so interesting.
Speaker 3: From a goth architecture perspective. We just had all these
Speaker 3: these different perspectives, different presentations that were being put forth,
Speaker 3: all of which were based upon trying to complement the
Speaker 3: natural landscapes. They had to work with, find interesting sites
Speaker 3: and then showcase those and bring the life of golf
Speaker 3: in the most natural fashions from those interesting sites. So
Speaker 3: I truly don't think I can say, oh, this one
Speaker 3: was better at this, that one was better at that.
Speaker 3: It's pretty much toss up type material there really great.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, and they're all different, you have unique and different.
Speaker 3: Oh you go again, you you go, watch you go
Speaker 3: boats of McKenzie course and point you know something, and
Speaker 3: you you walk around and say, oh man, this is
Speaker 3: some of the most interesting you know, certainly landscape some
Speaker 3: most beautiful course in the world probably, but the greens
Speaker 3: really interesting in this and that, and you go, Perry Dish,
Speaker 3: you know, wow, these may be some of the most
Speaker 3: interesting greens ever. And then you and then you know,
Speaker 3: you go to just different places and as soon as
Speaker 3: you think something's the best, oftentimes you walk off from
Speaker 3: another course. Wow, I thought that was maybe this is
Speaker 3: maybe this is just good. You know, it's fascinating to
Speaker 3: walk around Opel. Then you look at it and you go,
Speaker 3: this may be the most amazing set of greens in
Speaker 3: the world, you know, in terms of conters in the greens,
Speaker 3: and that, to me, it is just the beauty of
Speaker 3: there's no one has an absolute lock oh the best.
Speaker 2: It's it's so much into I felt the same way
Speaker 2: the summer, but I played some really great spots and
Speaker 2: every time I walk off. You know, a perfect example,
Speaker 2: I played Saduels. I was like, man, that was unbelievable.
Speaker 2: And then, you know, a month or so later, I
Speaker 2: got a chance to play Crystal Downs and I walked
Speaker 2: out that and I was like, and I think.
Speaker 3: Best of course in the world.
Speaker 2: But it's it's like if I want back and samphils
Speaker 2: are fuel the exact same way.
Speaker 3: Well, that's true. That's how I look at some of these,
Speaker 3: you know, different journalistic grap you know, rankings, and they're
Speaker 3: all it's all fascinating to read and in all this,
Speaker 3: but I look at them, really, can there be a
Speaker 3: number one golf course in the world. I just still
Speaker 3: think that's possible. I guess you might put lump together
Speaker 3: fifty or so. Then I think in an any given day,
Speaker 3: you could go to any one of them and say,
Speaker 3: I think this is the best course in the world
Speaker 3: or the best course ever playing, and then go to
Speaker 3: the other forty nine and probably say the same thing.
Speaker 2: And how can you compare sand Hills, which you guys
Speaker 2: had eight thousand acres to rout, versus like Marion, which
Speaker 2: is rotted on that tiny little property. It's like and
Speaker 2: they're so phystinctly different. Yeah, either one of them can't
Speaker 2: be better, they're just different because they're both greers.
Speaker 3: Well, and that's if there's been a problem with golf architecture,
Speaker 3: and it is that it's any anytime it becomes more stereotypes,
Speaker 3: that's why you're that's when the problem the curs, because
Speaker 3: like you're saying, what you want is as much variety
Speaker 3: as possible. It's you don't want every course looking like
Speaker 3: some other course. I mean, been in I both this day.
Speaker 3: If we can somehow create a golf course that looks
Speaker 3: like the site its one, it looks like he belongs
Speaker 3: there and has great individual character, we're extraordinary please with result.
Speaker 3: And I think those courses that you're describing that were,
Speaker 3: you know, done many decades ago. You might recognize them
Speaker 3: as coming out of a certain design philosophy sort of thing,
Speaker 3: but had no apparent connection in terms of visuals or
Speaker 3: you know, they weren't trying to just mass produce courses.
Speaker 3: They each one was a compliment to the landscape it
Speaker 3: was put upon. And yes, you could go to you
Speaker 3: could go to one of those courses wherever it's this
Speaker 3: would be the best course I've ever seen only to
Speaker 3: do the exact same thing a week later in some
Speaker 3: far off place.
Speaker 2: It's the beauty or golf's and variety is the key
Speaker 2: that everything within one course and you know, within courses
Speaker 2: across the country.
Speaker 3: And it's so with that you owe me.
Speaker 2: Everybody always points to your you know, these magnificent sights
Speaker 2: that you guys get a bill on, But I'm really
Speaker 2: interested in, you know, the places like Talking Stick, chi
Speaker 2: Cheza Creek and Turning Forest where they're flatter, there's less features,
Speaker 2: Like do you guys approach those sites differently than in
Speaker 2: terms of kind of how you go about building them?
Speaker 2: Do you have to do more stuff with those or
Speaker 2: isn't you know similar for the philosophy.
Speaker 3: Well, I mean there are some sites, you know, and
Speaker 3: we've been on the guys have been it's so extraordinary
Speaker 3: blast I guess we'd be a app description in that
Speaker 3: we've been given some truly special sites to work with,
Speaker 3: sites that we were so naturally gifted for golf. And
Speaker 3: a number of those sites that you know, have produced
Speaker 3: courses that people consider to be very special and folks
Speaker 3: talk about a lot and are there high up in
Speaker 3: the rankings of the us or the world or whatever.
Speaker 3: You know, we look at those and we're so grateful
Speaker 3: for those opportunities. And yet you mentioned talking talking Stick's
Speaker 3: probably the worst site, one of the worst sites we've
Speaker 3: ever had. It was so flat four hundred years for
Speaker 3: thirty six homes. And I absolutely are remember putting his
Speaker 3: Coca Cola can at one end of the four hundred acres,
Speaker 3: going to the other end of the four hundred acres
Speaker 3: and where the binoculars could see the Coca cola can
Speaker 3: sitting on the right. That's how flat it was. And
Speaker 3: there was no there was one tree on the site.
Speaker 3: It was not good soil. And you know, I remember
Speaker 3: going up there with Daning Army and you know, founding
Speaker 3: Trim Golf and they were going to manage the construction
Speaker 3: and the operational side for the tribal community there there.
Speaker 3: So I remember dating to Seling, you build two different
Speaker 3: golf courses out here. He just kind of smiled, looked
Speaker 3: at me. He said, we had looked at some sites
Speaker 3: before that I were too steep too. You know, we
Speaker 3: just did not work with He said, I don't think
Speaker 3: you can tell me this is too severe. That's true.
Speaker 3: And we laughed about it, so I still do. But
Speaker 3: the potential for that site Andy was minimum at best,
Speaker 3: as opposed to the potential for a site, whether it's
Speaker 3: like sand Hills in Nebraska or cab It you know,
Speaker 3: Nova Scotia or other sites that we've had to work
Speaker 3: with well here in Sand Valley, but their potential. There's
Speaker 3: some sites that have the potential that if you don't
Speaker 3: create something that's truly or one of the special golf
Speaker 3: courses in you know, make the definition here, but at
Speaker 3: sometimes in the world, you know, people say the sand Hills, Oh,
Speaker 3: that must have been so much fun, And I can't
Speaker 3: truthfully say that was a lot of fun either. Out
Speaker 3: there on the site, the mnsbill and thirty miles an hour.
Speaker 3: Half the time, it's blowing away as fast as you
Speaker 3: can build it. But in the back of your mind
Speaker 3: you know that if you don't build a the world's
Speaker 3: outstanding golf course, you failed. So the potential is so
Speaker 3: extreme and the margin for success so small. Talking stick
Speaker 3: on in the hand, the potential was so minimal and
Speaker 3: the opportunity for success, you go, we don't have to
Speaker 3: do much to make this better. If we can build
Speaker 3: anything resembles interesting golf so to this day when I
Speaker 3: go and I live in Scottsdale, so when I go
Speaker 3: out there, I you know, the parking lots full, there
Speaker 3: are people playing golf, if repeat playing, this will be
Speaker 3: their twentieth year that've been open. And I sometimes just
Speaker 3: stuff and I just look around, you know. I think
Speaker 3: people journalists particularly like to ask all the time, what's
Speaker 3: the best course you've ever done? Well? How do you
Speaker 3: measure success? How do you define best? Whatever? If best
Speaker 3: is defined by taking what its potential was and going
Speaker 3: beyond that to a certain at what point did you
Speaker 3: go beyond its potential to the point that people enjoyed
Speaker 3: playing it for twenty years and keep coming back again
Speaker 3: and again. Make talk e state. You could make an
Speaker 3: argument the talking state maybe the best thing we've ever done.
Speaker 2: I had a great experience. But that as in Phoenix
Speaker 2: for work and I was working for a startup in
Speaker 2: AA and they booked me an airbab that's there for
Speaker 2: two weeks and they booked me an arebab in a
Speaker 2: state in these people's house with them. I never know
Speaker 2: these people. Yeah, And like the first night in there,
Speaker 2: I got I got the terrible or flu and I
Speaker 2: was like laid up for the whole week, and then
Speaker 2: I felt okay to play golf on getting set the
Speaker 2: lee afternoon, I went. I went out a talking stick
Speaker 2: and they had a concert festival going on, so I
Speaker 2: got to play out there. There's nobody out there like late,
Speaker 2: and I was listening to music this play. I had
Speaker 2: such a good time out there. I mean, I always
Speaker 2: liked looking at an architects work on flash grounds, like
Speaker 2: I always think Sat Mariner did such a good job
Speaker 2: because a lot of sites that weren't he didn't have
Speaker 2: a lot of great suitings. And Donald Ross's was another
Speaker 2: one that came to mind that really utilized what he
Speaker 2: had really well. And I mean, do you I mean,
Speaker 2: do you think you kind of said, do you think
Speaker 2: a great judge of looking at an architects.
Speaker 3: Work is what they did with their worst site. Well,
Speaker 3: it's certainly something to be considered, you know. I mean,
Speaker 3: it's it's one thing to take an extraordinary gifted site
Speaker 3: and not mess it up. That's the fear of having
Speaker 3: a truly truly special site. But yes, it's another thing
Speaker 3: to take us all your little or no potential and
Speaker 3: actually out of it comes something that proves over a
Speaker 3: leafy period to be appreciated. So yeah, I think so.
Speaker 3: I mean I remember talking stick in it. You have
Speaker 3: to when you go out there now or when you played.
Speaker 3: Of course they planted lots of trees and kriss of
Speaker 3: bushes grew up and all this se together. But we
Speaker 3: staked up to thirty six holes and you know they
Speaker 3: had the PVC poles stuck up for the greens, landing areas,
Speaker 3: you know, teas and that sort of thing. You can
Speaker 3: see every pole. You can stand on one spot, see
Speaker 3: every single pole for every point on all thirty six holes.
Speaker 3: It looked like a pungee stick trap out there. I
Speaker 3: mean you just look like, you know, straws sticking up everywhere,
Speaker 3: and you just stood there. You didn't know where you
Speaker 3: went from one pole to the next to the decks.
Speaker 3: It was just like I remember talking to Ben and
Speaker 3: I said, Ben, if you've ever had any theoretical hopes
Speaker 3: on the flat ground you wanted to build, now's the time,
Speaker 3: because we got to come up with thirty six homes
Speaker 3: from nothing, juste ro. There was not one contract on
Speaker 3: the contract, it was just white and so we just
Speaker 3: sat there and Dave Axcellent, who's worked with us for
Speaker 3: so many years and they said, well, what kind of
Speaker 3: what would you like to start with, you know, because
Speaker 3: it told us it was kind of where they would
Speaker 3: like the clubhouse to be from an intro ro because
Speaker 3: at one time they were considering building a hotel internal
Speaker 3: between the two golf courses. And that's why there's that
Speaker 3: space right there, kind of the hole and doughnut right
Speaker 3: next to the clubhouse that both courses wrap around. And
Speaker 3: so it's okay, at least we have a starting point,
Speaker 3: you know, we'll go we'll go from here. And from
Speaker 3: that point it was purely theoretical. And people say, why
Speaker 3: would you guys ever do that, Well, we'd finished the
Speaker 3: sand Hills very soon before them, so we'd come and
Speaker 3: we were doing of course in Georgia called cosco will
Speaker 3: at the time. You know, sand Hills extraordinary site where
Speaker 3: you just followed exactly what the ground was going to
Speaker 3: give you. Cousco Willa another interesting site, very different than
Speaker 3: sand Hills, has been very interesting where you followed, you
Speaker 3: followed the ground, and then we looked at talks. Well,
Speaker 3: there's nothing to guid us here.
Speaker 2: Let's just let's see if we can do this variety
Speaker 2: in sights.
Speaker 3: Yeah, variety in sight.
Speaker 2: Yeah, did you guys just kind of let your imagination
Speaker 2: run while there was there any in particular little bit
Speaker 2: being flat that really you know, he said, we need
Speaker 2: to have this kind of interest, create interests here more
Speaker 2: so than anywhere else.
Speaker 3: Well, the gold again, as I would kid Dana Garmy,
Speaker 3: I said, now you're telling me you want two totally
Speaker 3: different golf courses on this side. Yes, okay, good luck.
Speaker 3: And but there was an attempt made to make the
Speaker 3: south course, so they've just been recently renamed, So I'm
Speaker 3: going to mess this up. I'm going to stick with
Speaker 3: the South And but the South course more of a
Speaker 3: parkland tighten course with elevated greens and greenside bunkers and
Speaker 3: and then there were more trees and there was a
Speaker 3: bit of water and that sort of thing, so it
Speaker 3: was intended to have more of that field. The North
Speaker 3: course was meant to be the low profile rolled off greens,
Speaker 3: not severe like pinders, but still crowned off bunkers and
Speaker 3: lower profile and more open, windswept, you know, feeling and
Speaker 3: in the mix. But between all that there is a
Speaker 3: major drainae area. It goes down through it. So we
Speaker 3: did create all these lows. You might not know so
Speaker 3: much if you're out there created all the lows. It
Speaker 3: would allowed water to enter for way at the north
Speaker 3: end of the property eventually work its way out the south.
Speaker 3: But we just did it differently than probably most of
Speaker 3: the courses have been done in the desert. Most of
Speaker 3: them do the mounding on the edges of the property
Speaker 3: and then start to work in. We left the edges
Speaker 3: of the property just flat like the desert, and then
Speaker 3: start doing the contours. The more away from the edges
Speaker 3: you get, the more contrary there is. So it went.
Speaker 3: It went inward and downward and upwards and that sort
Speaker 3: of thing. So it's it's at least to us, it
Speaker 3: just felt a little more natural.
Speaker 2: I remember why the third I think it's the third
Speaker 2: hole on the north verst is a par four long
Speaker 2: par floor on the boundary line and there's just nothing out.
Speaker 3: Yeah. Well that's what the whole property looked like.
Speaker 2: Yeah, yeah, there, Yeah, I guess that's kind a good
Speaker 2: way to just go to the edges and you'll see
Speaker 2: what I love.
Speaker 3: Well, it's interesting, you know, because the second home on
Speaker 3: the on the north course there in the part five
Speaker 3: goes right down the boundary. Yeah, there's a big fairway
Speaker 3: to right, no fairway, bunkers, big fairway to the right,
Speaker 3: out of bounds all the way down to the left
Speaker 3: hand side, and the greens sitting right next to the
Speaker 3: out of bounds you know, five hundred and twenty yards
Speaker 3: or so down there from down the tea, and you
Speaker 3: stand on the tea, you look right down the out
Speaker 3: of bounds, you see the green, You see the flag.
Speaker 3: There's a bunker to the right of the green, but
Speaker 3: the key is the out of bounds in the green
Speaker 3: sitting right next to it. And so you can play
Speaker 3: as far away from out of mounds as you want
Speaker 3: a sooner like you're going to deal with it. You
Speaker 3: can play the t shot way away from out of bounds.
Speaker 3: You can play the second shot way away from out
Speaker 3: of bounds. Now you're faced with a potential pitch right
Speaker 3: over that bunker to the skinny green with the out
Speaker 3: of bounds right behind it. And if you avoid the
Speaker 3: out of bounds with first two or three shots going together,
Speaker 3: so at some point you take on the out of bounds.
Speaker 3: And then I remember we were doing this day fact,
Speaker 3: so we were all out there where no one's gonna
Speaker 3: understand this all, no one, And sure enough we got some.
Speaker 3: I don't know that they do this anymore, but back then,
Speaker 3: Golf Digest you get some comments back from the raiders,
Speaker 3: you know, when they were evaluating the Coke Best New
Speaker 3: Courses or something that had been nominated. So then I
Speaker 3: love it. I loved it because we we read through
Speaker 3: some of the comments. You know, they were not named
Speaker 3: by who said them, but one of the comments from
Speaker 3: one of the golf I just readers, this is the
Speaker 3: worst golf a I've ever seen. And and then just
Speaker 3: got to take No one's gonna ever understand that. And
Speaker 3: yet Jeff Ogleby, you know who lives in Scottsdale and
Speaker 3: who's a very art student architectures, will have been such
Speaker 3: an extraordinary player, he thought. I heard him say, it's
Speaker 3: just a fascinating home. Just you know, for that very reason,
Speaker 3: you have to deal that by at some point and
Speaker 3: the old what was that old commercial payment now or
Speaker 3: any later?
Speaker 4: Yeah, okay, I had the top of the architect and
Speaker 4: he speaking exactly to this hole.
Speaker 2: He made an analogy that I will never forget. Is
Speaker 2: maybe one of the best golf course architecture analogy. He said,
Speaker 2: imagine the tennis match between Rock and Out and Robertetterer
Speaker 2: where they could only hit it right down the middle
Speaker 2: of the court all game. How exciting would that be?
Speaker 3: Extremely boring?
Speaker 2: The interest is on the edges and when they when
Speaker 2: they have to play to the edges to win, and
Speaker 2: it's just like this second ball of tocic is eventually
Speaker 2: you have to play the bed if you want to score,
Speaker 2: and that's where the interest comes.
Speaker 3: Yeah, that is a beautiful way to put it and
Speaker 3: just absolutely correct. You know, it gets into that whole
Speaker 3: discussion about with how much width you need for interest
Speaker 3: in there. For a lot of years we went to
Speaker 3: you know, things began more and more in terms of
Speaker 3: width of fairways, which basically rendered playing off much like
Speaker 3: that description and watching two extraordinary tennisers just say, you
Speaker 3: cannot hit it anywhere but right down the middle of
Speaker 3: the court, it's not particularly that interesting. It's when you
Speaker 3: start to play the edges to gain advantage, and if
Speaker 3: the course has edges and gives you a reason to
Speaker 3: play close to them to gain an advantage, that's when
Speaker 3: it because really exciting. But talking stick and you mean
Speaker 3: we didn't We've always said and people are kidded us,
Speaker 3: but there's it's true. We look for whatever features we
Speaker 3: can to give inspiration to the holes, you know, features
Speaker 3: that exist on the property. And talking stick one tree,
Speaker 3: there was one little ditch, I mean tiny little ditch
Speaker 3: that some poor person had tried to dig. It comes
Speaker 3: here many years ago to direct water in case it
Speaker 3: ever rained, but some does. But that ditch still exists.
Speaker 3: It's on the right hand side of I think it's
Speaker 3: number seven down one time it was maybe it's ten.
Speaker 3: On the north course. Yeah, there's a little ditch over there.
Speaker 3: They switched the numbers of the holes, but it goes
Speaker 3: straight away. It's a hole goes straight away from the clubhouse,
Speaker 3: you know there, to the to the north and there's
Speaker 3: this tiny little ditch, just straight as it can be anyway. Thought,
Speaker 3: we just make a hole right down that ditch and
Speaker 3: if you can play close to it. It's on the
Speaker 3: right versus the outer bounds on the left on the
Speaker 3: second home. Years all that, so at times you get desperate,
Speaker 3: you just start looking for things. What can we what
Speaker 3: can we some inspiration for a whole? Yeah, it's that.
Speaker 2: How do you live it? So switching gears and drive
Speaker 2: it from Topee Sick to sam Hills like there, ye
Speaker 2: had probably the complete opposite beyond you know, features.
Speaker 3: Over the.
Speaker 2: What was the most difficult thing about going from I
Speaker 2: think it was one hundred and thirty two holes to.
Speaker 3: Eighteen Well, you know, Andy, it was we always knew.
Speaker 3: I mean, yes, we had many mini holes. One hundred
Speaker 3: and thirty, two hundred and thirty six, I don't I
Speaker 3: can't remember exactly now. There's still most of them I
Speaker 3: think are still on a little piece of paper I
Speaker 3: used to carry around my pocket when I would go
Speaker 3: up there, and they're just tiny little marks. You know
Speaker 3: that didn't mean anything to anyone but me personally. I
Speaker 3: knew where one of those little marks was. I could
Speaker 3: go out to find it and stuff from individual holes.
Speaker 3: But it's but as soon as you started to say
Speaker 3: I really want this hole, most often that cut across
Speaker 3: some of the other potential holes, So you started eliminating things. Uh.
Speaker 3: The big the big thing with sand Hills is trying
Speaker 3: to truly believe going into it as you start construction
Speaker 3: that you pick the best one. And that's just pure
Speaker 3: judgment call. It's it's do we like the sequels the holes?
Speaker 3: Do we like the directions.
Speaker 2: Do we like the the.
Speaker 3: You know, the feel is you're progressing. Do we like
Speaker 3: the way the course is moving through the bigger dunes
Speaker 3: and in the softer duds. We were, you know, we
Speaker 3: were trying to get it again to your point of variety.
Speaker 3: You know, I've heard people who said, oh, gee, you
Speaker 3: should have put more holes up in those giant dudes.
Speaker 3: Well understand that from a visual perspective, but els played
Speaker 3: on the ground, staying at sand hills and you you know,
Speaker 3: walking and playing golf, and we just felt like it
Speaker 3: should be a you know, a nice combination of that landscape.
Speaker 3: Big dudes, small dudes, in between sizes, and so you
Speaker 3: just try to start to analyze all the different you
Speaker 3: find individual holes that you that you'd really like to build,
Speaker 3: but you try to then start figuring out what's the
Speaker 3: circulation pattern, how best to get around this property in
Speaker 3: this interesting fashion and showcase the most interesting elements and
Speaker 3: order the best individual holes to do that, And pretty
Speaker 3: soon you start picking a few and a lot of
Speaker 3: a lot of others start falling, by the way, But
Speaker 3: it is It's one of our biggest concerns in that
Speaker 3: was that we finished the course and then look back
Speaker 3: and oh, we should have done that. We should have
Speaker 3: done that, you know, And I'm very candid to listen,
Speaker 3: I think if you talked to Band, certainly if you
Speaker 3: talk to me, I think we would both very quickly
Speaker 3: say now we're happy the once we picked. I think
Speaker 3: I could see that perspective. But I actually do believe
Speaker 3: we do feel it. I don't think we've been trying
Speaker 3: to talk ourselves into it. I remember playing golf out
Speaker 3: there before the course open just bannoned me. We played
Speaker 3: and we were walking down over me and we got
Speaker 3: to the seventeenth hole, and you know, of course we
Speaker 3: both knew all the different discussions that have gone on,
Speaker 3: different ways to go. I remember looking at Band, would
Speaker 3: you change anything? And he said no, And that's just
Speaker 3: the two of us stand there. There's no one listening,
Speaker 3: there's no one. It's not like God, we probably should
Speaker 3: have taken that hole over there, that one instead of this.
Speaker 3: There was none of that. We were very comfortable, and
Speaker 3: I think for for both of us that was real.
Speaker 2: I mean, we.
Speaker 3: If we had had any inclination that know, we missed it,
Speaker 3: we would have admitted. And so I don't think it's
Speaker 3: just like we just said it to make ourselves food matter.
Speaker 2: You know. So Kyle Ecklin, who was on the podcast,
Speaker 2: you know, there was a big argument with you and
Speaker 2: Dick Young skat about four three. Oh God, and uh,
Speaker 2: you know you have some we have some stuff around there.
Speaker 2: And who do you think do you think Dick would
Speaker 2: admit you were right? Now?
Speaker 3: You that Dick is such a good friend. I just
Speaker 3: said the absolute world Dick, And yeah, he went very
Speaker 3: happy with me, and he was not happy with me.
Speaker 2: Uh but.
Speaker 3: Uh, and you'd have to ask Dick with his opinion
Speaker 3: that it is. But you know he was he always envisioned.
Speaker 3: He He and I had gone out there actually one day.
Speaker 3: And I don't think I'm saying something I shouldn't say.
Speaker 3: You know, Till did might disagree with this, but I
Speaker 3: don't know. But we'd gone out there when they used
Speaker 3: the two of us, and until that we were thinking
Speaker 3: about Billy Green and where it is, and we were
Speaker 3: going to use that. What became them They blow out
Speaker 3: both their shorter left to create the same, then pile
Speaker 3: against the natural done to make the green. And it
Speaker 3: was gonna be one sort of inspired by the fifth
Speaker 3: green that Perry Junius in case. She happened to know
Speaker 3: that an actual deliberation or think piles standing out next
Speaker 3: on the off the side of the dene doing the
Speaker 3: drop off, you know, besides that, and Dick was talking
Speaker 3: to Bill, why don't you build the green down there
Speaker 3: low to the run? And Dick been off to do
Speaker 3: that tome stuff. You know, he just said, I want
Speaker 3: you to do the least for the property. You can't.
Speaker 3: And that's why I think he was saying, why don't
Speaker 3: you build the green down here low to the right,
Speaker 3: because he going, why would you dig that? Saying other
Speaker 3: and pilot up there and build the green. You can
Speaker 3: just build it down here low right. And Ben and
Speaker 3: I talked about this quite a bit, and we ball
Speaker 3: just felt like it was more interesting sitting up there.
Speaker 3: And so I went through all that with Dick and
Speaker 3: he and I, and at the end of that day,
Speaker 3: I sincerely believed that Dick was in greenment. We built
Speaker 3: the green up there high left. Dick sincerely believed we
Speaker 3: were in a greement. We were going to build it
Speaker 3: down there low right. And so we went our separate ways,
Speaker 3: and Dick went off for I don't know a few days.
Speaker 3: I can't remember. You usually there all the time, but
Speaker 3: he went off for a few days. Meanwhile, went up
Speaker 3: there and the very next day and started build the
Speaker 3: green up top. Yeah, Dick came back. He was he
Speaker 3: was not happy all the time. Really. I don't think
Speaker 3: he spoke to me for like two weeks very after,
Speaker 3: and I was sending most all the summer up there,
Speaker 3: So he was not very happy with me. But the
Speaker 3: most of them, at least from me. Maybe the most
Speaker 3: amusing part is the first picture ever published the Sandhills
Speaker 3: Golf Club. Ron Whitting from God Digest was up there
Speaker 3: as the course was just about grown in. Ron was
Speaker 3: taking some photographs and he wrote a piece about the
Speaker 3: Sandels and there's a double page, double page spread, one
Speaker 3: photograph of the fourth grade. And Dick saw that and
Speaker 3: he got yeah. He looked at me, he goes, you
Speaker 3: did this. I know you did this. I know you
Speaker 3: said fact. He was convinced, which I had nothing to do.
Speaker 3: I didn't even know they were gonna I knew Ron
Speaker 3: and Beneper was going to do a piece about it,
Speaker 3: but nobody, yeah the picture. Nobody. But to this day
Speaker 3: Dick's convinced that I had that set up with Ron
Speaker 3: to run that picture double page picture of the fourth
Speaker 3: old of the thing is.
Speaker 2: With regard to the day, with him being a successful
Speaker 2: building architect, do you think that helps with him being
Speaker 2: now the working with you guys like a little bit
Speaker 2: more hands off roll, do you think him being an
Speaker 2: architect helped the success of that project?
Speaker 3: Well, I think that was a very big contributing factor.
Speaker 3: He is understanding building in general and design in the process.
Speaker 3: But Andy, he's Dick youngs Cap simply the only human
Speaker 3: being I've ever met that I truly believed a Pullbach project.
Speaker 3: As much as I admires so many people for whom
Speaker 3: we work and people I've met who've been so successful,
Speaker 3: I don't know anyone else that could have made that happen.
Speaker 3: The combination of patience but concept and the ability to
Speaker 3: communicate with the local community, the ranching community there, and
Speaker 3: then just to convince anyone that's had any hope possibility.
Speaker 3: I mean, you put it in the context people look
Speaker 3: back now probably that oh well, okay, yeah it happened. Well,
Speaker 3: you can only imagine trying to go out and convince
Speaker 3: someone it was dixed on a wealthy dad, and you
Speaker 3: go out and try to convince someone that that they
Speaker 3: should invest in the building of a golf course in
Speaker 3: sand Hills and Nebraska where the population based averages two people.
Speaker 3: Firstquaremont and uh, you know, I really to do this.
Speaker 3: And I remember a guy that had been on you
Speaker 3: very well from back easton. He gone out there to
Speaker 3: look at it, and he summed it all up to
Speaker 3: me when he called. He goes, Bill, there are no people,
Speaker 3: there's no one there. You're gonna build a come to dagger.
Speaker 3: And so yeah, Dick his ability to pull off that,
Speaker 3: and the faith that people who invested with him had
Speaker 3: in Dick, it wasn't in us, and it wasn't in
Speaker 3: that concept because the concept was just like seemed pure folly.
Speaker 3: And here a Crump's folly in Tinne Valley, well it,
Speaker 3: you know, books are written about that. But Dick's this
Speaker 3: idea of going out there and doing this, which perceived
Speaker 3: Ball almost everyone who saw it, his absolute folly.
Speaker 2: What was you and Ben's reaction when he first saw
Speaker 2: you and told you the idea like without seeing the son.
Speaker 3: Well first of all, and Ben had seen pictures in
Speaker 3: an old National geographic magazine I can't remember from when
Speaker 3: could have been could have been the sixties, late nineteen sixties.
Speaker 3: But he had seen pictures in an article that was
Speaker 3: in National Geographic about the sand Hills of Nebraska. And
Speaker 3: it was a fairly lenky article, had stories of ranching
Speaker 3: families and things, but talked about the geology of the
Speaker 3: site and all the sand dunes Redden so Ben remembered
Speaker 3: those photographs of those dudes from that article. I had
Speaker 3: or first heard about the sand Hills, Nebraska from Doug Peterson,
Speaker 3: who was a longtime superintendent Perry Dunes. Later he ended
Speaker 3: up coming to be the superintendent the Austin Golf Club
Speaker 3: who did in Moscow. But I remember back in nineteen
Speaker 3: eighties walking with Doug down the eighth hole at Prairie Dunes,
Speaker 3: and I made some comments and can you imagine having
Speaker 3: a piece of property like this to build a course
Speaker 3: on it? And Doug was originally from Nebraska, and he
Speaker 3: looked at me and in his very grappling voice, he says, Bill,
Speaker 3: I know whether there's land better than this? For god,
Speaker 3: I what where is it?
Speaker 1: He said?
Speaker 3: In Nebraska? Well, I'd never been the state of Nebraska either.
Speaker 3: Nebraska was just flat cornfields, you know, and the stuff.
Speaker 3: And he goes, no, there's a big sand new area.
Speaker 3: He said, I've been through it many times. He said
Speaker 3: it's fabulous. He should probably never be a golf course
Speaker 3: there because there are no people. He said, it's fabulous.
Speaker 3: Lamb for golf. Rond Whitten from God Digest from Nebraska.
Speaker 3: He knew about it. But the fact that when Dick called,
Speaker 3: I remember vividly being in the office with Ben and
Speaker 3: Scott say there's our business all these years, and Dick
Speaker 3: got on it. You know, we got on the conference
Speaker 3: com for Dick and he said, God, I'm calling to
Speaker 3: see if you have be interested in coming to to
Speaker 3: the sand Hills and Nebraska to look at the sitement. Well,
Speaker 3: I think he started off saying, look at the sitement Nebraska.
Speaker 3: You know. Of course Dick can't see us. When we
Speaker 3: were sitting there, we were listening and Alston he says,
Speaker 3: in a part called the sand Hills of Nebraska, I'm
Speaker 3: sure you've never heard of it. I look at Ben.
Speaker 3: He looks at me, and he thought of that National
Speaker 3: geographic thing, and I thought of Doug Pierson, there go,
Speaker 3: we'll be there. We'll come and see.
Speaker 2: It's amazing.
Speaker 3: It's that is when.
Speaker 2: You're drive us in there just you seek golf everywhere.
Speaker 3: But I mentioned that.
Speaker 2: Is building. It's just I think the thing that sticks
Speaker 2: out to me. There's spectacular degree complexes, but the scale
Speaker 2: and having that scale to be able to use it
Speaker 2: in a strategic way. I mean, that's got to be
Speaker 2: so rare and on all your sites to have that
Speaker 2: kind of intimidation factor.
Speaker 3: With the bunkers right well, and the bunkers certainly were
Speaker 3: inspired by just the natural blowouts that occurred from windy
Speaker 3: bros there in the sand hills, and so you know,
Speaker 3: we saw those and said, okay, that needs to be
Speaker 3: the model for the bunkers out here. And of course
Speaker 3: the ranchers that we got to know very well through
Speaker 3: the through the process, that they all thought were just
Speaker 3: completely lost our minds. They're trying to get those sandy
Speaker 3: blowouts to heel over, you know, so they don't just
Speaker 3: keep getting bigger and bigger, and here we are making some.
Speaker 3: But it was interesting to listen to one of the
Speaker 3: ratchers was out there one day. I was talking about
Speaker 3: something that said, I think we're gonna make this sandy
Speaker 3: blowout over here, and he goes, well, you can, and
Speaker 3: it would never occur naturally there. Well, okay, you face
Speaker 3: the wrong direction and cattle don't go. And most of
Speaker 3: the blowouts occurred before some traffic pattern going through up
Speaker 3: a dune. They'd wear a spot and then prease in
Speaker 3: the wind and start blowing in the bulleting like a
Speaker 3: giant bunker that's there and left of eighteen and the
Speaker 3: sandals that's there because of the windmill. That's because the
Speaker 3: cows would go through and they'd always go to the
Speaker 3: windmill that'd come down from the top down the dues.
Speaker 3: They'd come from the bottom, they'd come across what's in
Speaker 3: front of number one. And so when we got there,
Speaker 3: that was just a magnificent sandy expanse and the all
Speaker 3: caused by the cattle coming down to the windmill that
Speaker 3: pumped the water into the holding tank there.
Speaker 2: Yeah, I've heard that a lot of people have been
Speaker 2: asking you about camping out on the sites and routed
Speaker 2: and I had to apologize. You know, one of your
Speaker 2: friends told me.
Speaker 3: You did that, and think I know who that friend was. Yeah,
Speaker 3: And a young guy walk up to me and Branston
Speaker 3: long ago who's working on the course, and he asked
Speaker 3: me that same thing. He says, is it true that
Speaker 3: you take a tent and pitch out and pitched tent
Speaker 3: out on the site and start walking and falling on
Speaker 3: the animal trails. I think that rumor has been embellished. No,
Speaker 3: I had never to ten out on the site and
Speaker 3: have I followed animal trails. Absolutely. It's been my sense
Speaker 3: walking sites, particularly wooded hilly sites, that animals figure out
Speaker 3: the easiest way to traverse the property, and generals in
Speaker 3: search of water or going to front water, but they
Speaker 3: find the ways to get around the severe parts of
Speaker 3: the property in the least taxing way. So if you're
Speaker 3: going to a site, you know, not anything to begin,
Speaker 3: but you find a nice deer trail, cattle trail, whatever,
Speaker 3: elk trail, whatever it may be, Generally it's going to
Speaker 3: find its way from high ground to low ground probably
Speaker 3: back to high ground in a way that's not horrible
Speaker 3: to walk. Plus, if you're in the bushes in the woods,
Speaker 3: you already got a bit of a trailer fall. Yeah, exatically.
Speaker 3: So it's we always start out trying to determine the
Speaker 3: circulation pattern around the piece of property and find the
Speaker 3: most interesting parts elements of the property. And then if
Speaker 3: you were to go out there and just walk that
Speaker 3: property to see it, not even thinking about God, if
Speaker 3: you were to go out there and spend the day
Speaker 3: walking around that property and try to see the interesting parts,
Speaker 3: the vistas, the long term visas, but also maybe the
Speaker 3: rock out croppings or interesting trees or interesting stream or
Speaker 3: what break whatever it might be. Once you knew those
Speaker 3: things are there, how would you go walk about through
Speaker 3: the day and do it where you could see those
Speaker 3: things and not feel like you're mountain climbing or you're
Speaker 3: not feeling like you're just doing it or it's just
Speaker 3: a physical challenge. How would you make an enjoyable walk
Speaker 3: through property? So we sort of look at routing like that,
Speaker 3: how would you walk through this? How would you go
Speaker 3: through this property and touch upon the most interesting elements
Speaker 3: and do it in a way that's not physically oldly
Speaker 3: physically taxing. So that's that's kind of how we do that.
Speaker 3: But yeah, the animal trails play into that. I made
Speaker 3: a mistake and I said that some years ago been
Speaker 3: the were doing an interview with the media thing for
Speaker 3: the PGA Senior Championship at Colorado Golf Club, and during
Speaker 3: that they had someone asked the question, but we hear
Speaker 3: you sometimes walk around on the animal trails, and so
Speaker 3: I basically say what I just said. Next thing I
Speaker 3: know though I think it was Gary Koch. I'm not sure,
Speaker 3: but one of the commentators for the championship says, it's
Speaker 3: out on the air and it comes out across like, oh,
Speaker 3: these lay out the whole based on the animals. You know. Well,
Speaker 3: it's not quite right, but it is a good guy
Speaker 3: band Trails. Abandoned Trails was full of trails, both animal
Speaker 3: trails and hiking trails. So that's why it has that
Speaker 3: name trails. I used to walk out there for days
Speaker 3: and days and days and studying the property and making
Speaker 3: up some maps and things. But some of that stuff,
Speaker 3: the gorse and stuff, you could physically walk through anyway.
Speaker 3: But it's there are a lot of holes abandoned trails
Speaker 3: that were laid out. It's kind of following trails.
Speaker 2: If you had run with the camping, sorry, you would
Speaker 2: have inspired a whole new generation of architects that spend
Speaker 2: their time camping on their sides.
Speaker 3: God know, whether either started about perimax or prairie dune. Supposedly,
Speaker 3: you know, being out there with some apples and water
Speaker 3: and a tent. If I'm not mistaken, mister Maxeldar. He
Speaker 3: lost one leg by this time. I doubt that he
Speaker 3: was out in the sand and the dunes there, prairie dudes,
Speaker 3: you know. Well. He may have had apples and water
Speaker 3: with him and the way to get a rest, but
Speaker 3: I doubt that he was just camping out out there.
Speaker 2: You