WEBVTT - Bill Coore - Part 1 0:00:00.680 --> 0:00:03.520 Welcome back to another edition of the Frida Egg Podcast. 0:00:03.920 --> 0:00:08.640 Today we had Bill kouron and thanks to his gracious time, 0:00:09.240 --> 0:00:12.720 this is another two part edition, so look for part 0:00:12.720 --> 0:00:17.160 two of the podcast to drop on Monday morning and 0:00:17.800 --> 0:00:20.880 enjoy part one. If you're new to the podcast, please 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:25.120 subscribe to our channel on iTunes or Stitcher. And if 0:00:25.200 --> 0:00:28.320 you've been a subscriber and enjoy it, please drop us 0:00:28.320 --> 0:00:28.760 a review. 0:00:28.920 --> 0:00:31.400 I'm miss the green, for example, I'm already upset. 0:00:31.520 --> 0:00:33.800 When I find my ball in the bunker, I'm really upset. 0:00:33.920 --> 0:00:36.600 And when I find my ball in Arid Egg, Frida Egg, 0:00:37.320 --> 0:00:42.159 fridag Bride Egg Lie, I'm about ready to run off the. 0:01:08.280 --> 0:01:11.080 Ladies and John Welcome back to another edition of the 0:01:11.080 --> 0:01:14.959 Friday Podcast. Today I'm joined by note of golf course 0:01:15.040 --> 0:01:19.640 architect Bill Core from the Core Crunch Out designer. Bill 0:01:19.760 --> 0:01:22.840 is design some of the world's greatest courses, including sand 0:01:22.920 --> 0:01:27.000 Hill's Friar Head, Friar's Head, Lost Farm and Garden Google Dunes, 0:01:27.480 --> 0:01:30.919 and today we're at one of his newest courses, sand Valley. 0:01:31.400 --> 0:01:34.800 Bill, welcome on, Thank you, indeed, thank you for coming 0:01:34.840 --> 0:01:39.560 out with has turned out to be the coldest day 0:01:39.560 --> 0:01:43.360 of the year. Here in Wisconsin, yes, as. 0:01:43.160 --> 0:01:46.680 Of Chicago, and I know the schedule after activities in 0:01:46.680 --> 0:01:50.600 Wisconsin and mid November. Unless it's plucked scheme right, I 0:01:50.640 --> 0:01:53.280 think that would have been maybe more at proposed than 0:01:53.280 --> 0:01:57.520 what we did. But I think getting a good thought, 0:01:58.080 --> 0:02:01.240 like a good first cold, and it's gonna set me 0:02:01.320 --> 0:02:03.720 up for what you're going to go back to warm places. 0:02:05.680 --> 0:02:09.880 Yeah, you're prepared. Your your introduction is over. It's down winter, 0:02:12.120 --> 0:02:13.880 so I want I want to kick things off. 0:02:15.120 --> 0:02:18.880 Something I've heard is that you consider Old Town Club 0:02:19.040 --> 0:02:23.320 to be one of the most significant courses in your 0:02:23.400 --> 0:02:28.960 architectural career, and just curious why why Old Town What 0:02:29.080 --> 0:02:32.160 about it is so significant? And you know his shape 0:02:32.280 --> 0:02:32.720 the way. 0:02:32.639 --> 0:02:37.800 You think, Well, Andy, I think it's it's primarily because 0:02:37.919 --> 0:02:40.919 I grew up in North Carolina, and so I grew 0:02:40.960 --> 0:02:47.480 up playing basically on very very well affordable courses. I'm 0:02:47.520 --> 0:02:50.920 talking very affordable, which meant they weren't necessarily at the 0:02:50.919 --> 0:02:55.480 top of the scale in terms of architecture usually, but 0:02:55.560 --> 0:02:58.880 I was also able to be exposed to courses like 0:02:58.960 --> 0:03:03.000 Pioneers Number two had like Old Town Club, and those 0:03:03.000 --> 0:03:06.680 two courses I think came together to form my understanding 0:03:07.040 --> 0:03:10.440 that probably became collectively they became the cornerstone of my 0:03:10.600 --> 0:03:13.720 understanding of what interesting golf course architecture was all about. 0:03:13.840 --> 0:03:18.239 So I was exposed to Pinehurst first, but then when 0:03:18.919 --> 0:03:21.359 I was at wake Forest for four years there in 0:03:21.400 --> 0:03:26.160 the Old Town Club literally being adjacent to connected to 0:03:26.360 --> 0:03:29.840 basically the campus, I would walk there with my golf 0:03:30.000 --> 0:03:34.760 bag in the afternoons and began playing golf. And the 0:03:34.840 --> 0:03:37.280 students can do that at the time for a dollar. 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:39.760 They could play Old Town Club for one dollar. If 0:03:39.800 --> 0:03:41.920 you finned in, paid your dollar, and you played even 0:03:42.080 --> 0:03:48.760 the private club, but Old Town. The more I played it, 0:03:48.840 --> 0:03:55.720 the more I realized that it was just fascinating, and 0:03:55.760 --> 0:03:59.320 the more I began to think about golf architecture, and 0:03:59.400 --> 0:04:02.880 actually Udy got architecturally more, I began to realize how 0:04:02.960 --> 0:04:06.400 truly gifted Old Town was and what Perry Maxwell did 0:04:06.440 --> 0:04:07.800 there on that site. 0:04:09.320 --> 0:04:15.320 What was so special about what Maxwell about the different features? 0:04:15.880 --> 0:04:18.120 Well, I think first of all, it's a small site 0:04:18.240 --> 0:04:22.400 and it's quite hilly. So if you if you wanted 0:04:22.440 --> 0:04:25.120 to study how to lay a golf course on a 0:04:25.120 --> 0:04:29.000 fairly severe piece of ground, and you had a fairly 0:04:29.080 --> 0:04:31.719 small piece ground in terms of acreages, I know of 0:04:31.839 --> 0:04:35.280 no better place to do it than Old Town because 0:04:35.279 --> 0:04:38.680 of the way mister Maxwell laid the holes out across 0:04:38.720 --> 0:04:43.480 those hills and the valleys and made them working. Though 0:04:43.480 --> 0:04:46.240 they're in close proximity to each other, you don't ever 0:04:46.800 --> 0:04:51.080 feel like you're in danger, and necessarily when you're playing golf. 0:04:51.160 --> 0:04:54.200 He just did it in such beautiful fashion, and like 0:04:54.320 --> 0:04:57.680 so many things that when it's well done, it looks 0:04:57.720 --> 0:05:00.599 so simple. And so I played Old Down for a 0:05:00.640 --> 0:05:05.440 long long time before it finally struck me as to gee, 0:05:05.480 --> 0:05:07.479 how did you actually make this work? How do you 0:05:07.600 --> 0:05:10.080 get all these holes on this small piece of ground 0:05:10.480 --> 0:05:14.640 and make them work? And so from a routing standpoint, 0:05:14.680 --> 0:05:17.000 it's an extraordinary study. 0:05:17.200 --> 0:05:21.920 And example, you hear a lot of architects stamp like 0:05:22.000 --> 0:05:25.039 a moment where they know they want to be like 0:05:25.240 --> 0:05:30.320 you know where they can come into architecture and like 0:05:30.440 --> 0:05:33.400 whether it's playing a great course, Was it that whole 0:05:33.440 --> 0:05:36.400 time where you really had like an architectural awakening or 0:05:36.440 --> 0:05:40.160 did it happen before at timers as need one. 0:05:40.240 --> 0:05:44.839 Actually those two went together and said to form my 0:05:45.800 --> 0:05:52.480 earliest impressions of what really interesting golf architecture was about 0:05:53.000 --> 0:05:55.080 but no, it was actually after I had graduated from 0:05:55.080 --> 0:05:57.080 Wake Forest and I was about to go to a 0:05:57.120 --> 0:06:01.560 graduate school. A duke and Uncle Sam decided that I 0:06:01.600 --> 0:06:05.520 should make a bit of a detour. And so I 0:06:05.560 --> 0:06:09.800 had spent you know, two years in the Army and 0:06:10.640 --> 0:06:13.919 as I was about to get out, I saw a 0:06:13.960 --> 0:06:18.200 golf course near my home in North Carolina, in a 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:23.560 town called high Point, North Carolina, and man by name 0:06:23.600 --> 0:06:26.600 of Pete and Iye was designing a course there. And 0:06:26.640 --> 0:06:30.279 the course was it was called oak Holl Public Health Course. 0:06:30.880 --> 0:06:32.800 And I had never heard of Pete Dye and I 0:06:32.839 --> 0:06:35.840 knew nothing about this golf course when somebody said, oh, 0:06:35.839 --> 0:06:39.360 they're building a golf course not so far away. And 0:06:39.400 --> 0:06:45.640 I remember when I was, you know, I had a 0:06:45.640 --> 0:06:48.640 weekend away there from the from the army, and I'd 0:06:48.680 --> 0:06:51.520 gone home and I went out to look at it. 0:06:51.560 --> 0:06:54.680 And it's when Pete was doing things very much like Harbortale, 0:06:54.960 --> 0:07:00.000 shorter courses, finesse, yeah, railroad sleepers, the whole thing people 0:07:00.160 --> 0:07:04.279 think about. And it was just fascinating to me. This 0:07:04.480 --> 0:07:07.000 was a course in the era of Robert trendyal Sor. 0:07:07.880 --> 0:07:12.120 And when I saw this golf course, I thought, oh gosh, 0:07:12.200 --> 0:07:16.680 that's kind of that's very interesting. And I think more 0:07:16.720 --> 0:07:22.240 than anything Andy, that's when out there that day walking around. 0:07:22.240 --> 0:07:24.360 The course wasn't open yet, but it wasn't too far 0:07:24.400 --> 0:07:28.120 away from opening, and I just remember thinking, I wonder 0:07:28.160 --> 0:07:32.680 how you do this? I love golf. I think I 0:07:32.800 --> 0:07:37.040 know a good course when I see one, But how 0:07:37.040 --> 0:07:41.360 does this happen? What's the process? And you know, having 0:07:41.400 --> 0:07:45.360 been away from school for over two years, it's that 0:07:45.520 --> 0:07:50.200 decision backing do I go to graduate school? And then 0:07:50.200 --> 0:07:52.520 I'm thinking, well, I'm single, I don't I don't need 0:07:52.600 --> 0:07:56.160 much money or anything I could. I might like to 0:07:56.160 --> 0:08:00.280 see how this is done. So I remember the guy 0:08:00.280 --> 0:08:02.679 who was out there watering. It was a little Sunday afternoon. 0:08:02.680 --> 0:08:05.560 Guy was at their water and of course asked him 0:08:05.560 --> 0:08:09.240 who did it. He said, I some man named Die 0:08:09.960 --> 0:08:12.680 and again didn't mean anything to me at the time. 0:08:12.800 --> 0:08:19.560 This was in nineteen seventy one, and I said, do 0:08:19.560 --> 0:08:22.000 you know how to get in touch with you? He said, oh, 0:08:22.040 --> 0:08:24.880 I'm sure. His names and the superintendent's rolodecks. And here 0:08:24.920 --> 0:08:27.440 we walked. He drove me back to making the shop. 0:08:27.520 --> 0:08:29.800 We walked in there and he takes the old fashioned 0:08:29.880 --> 0:08:33.760 rolodex where he turned around all the cards, flip cards 0:08:33.800 --> 0:08:37.320 with wooden names and dressing phone numbers, and sure enough 0:08:37.360 --> 0:08:39.880 he finds it. He finds Pete giving me his number. 0:08:40.640 --> 0:08:44.120 I began calling Pete, he said, badger him to see 0:08:44.160 --> 0:08:45.959 if I could get a job, just to see how 0:08:46.000 --> 0:08:48.280 this was deaf. So that was the moment. 0:08:49.360 --> 0:08:51.720 How long did it take together? 0:08:51.880 --> 0:08:58.040 Job? Quite a while? Actually, I mean I called Pete. 0:08:58.640 --> 0:09:04.440 He I remember, I blatantly made up a story that 0:09:04.559 --> 0:09:07.600 I was going to be in Florida, which I really 0:09:08.000 --> 0:09:11.000 didn't any reason to be in Florida. But as soon 0:09:11.040 --> 0:09:13.000 as I was going to get up get my discharge 0:09:13.000 --> 0:09:16.240 from the military, and uh, he said, well, if you're 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.920 ever down here, you know, call me. So I just 0:09:19.400 --> 0:09:21.480 I made my way down to Florida after I was 0:09:21.520 --> 0:09:26.480 discharged in the military, and I called them and he 0:09:26.480 --> 0:09:29.360 he interesting enough, it was another of all things on 0:09:29.400 --> 0:09:35.400 a Sunday afternoon, and and Pete was he was a 0:09:35.559 --> 0:09:39.080 huge Miami Dolphins man. And this is in the time 0:09:39.160 --> 0:09:42.480 when the Dolphins were dominant, you know, the year actually 0:09:42.520 --> 0:09:48.120 I think that they went undefeated. She done you, Larry Zarka, Bob, 0:09:48.720 --> 0:09:51.920 These guys there, you know, it's just Pete was such 0:09:51.920 --> 0:09:54.920 a huge fans. 0:09:55.360 --> 0:09:57.840 Yeah, I think so. 0:09:58.280 --> 0:10:03.120 I think so. So. I remember calling, and you know, 0:10:03.360 --> 0:10:07.319 she had no interest whatsoever what I wanted to talk about. 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:12.040 But I do remember. He said, where are you? I said, well, 0:10:12.080 --> 0:10:15.800 I'm at the whatever it is, I can't remember, some 0:10:15.920 --> 0:10:21.920 little hotel, hotel there on the beach. And he said, sure, 0:10:22.000 --> 0:10:24.079 I can talk to you. He said, I'll be over there. 0:10:25.320 --> 0:10:28.240 But what he's going to come over here? He wanted 0:10:28.240 --> 0:10:30.320 to watch the football game. He had a bunch of 0:10:30.360 --> 0:10:33.600 folks in his house. He came over there. I didn't 0:10:33.600 --> 0:10:35.200 know who. I didn't know what to look for. I 0:10:35.200 --> 0:10:37.360 didn't know I didn't know what he looked like or anything. 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:39.800 I'm just asking people to be walking the door. You 0:10:39.920 --> 0:10:43.240 pe done. They don't want her? No, Well then he anyway, 0:10:43.240 --> 0:10:48.079 he walks in and he says, so you want to 0:10:48.120 --> 0:10:50.760 talk about Golfer? Because here I said yes. He said, 0:10:51.320 --> 0:10:55.480 all right, let's go to your room. What and so 0:10:55.640 --> 0:10:57.880 here we go to my room. He plops down in 0:10:57.960 --> 0:11:01.120 the bed and gets the TV face turns the football game. 0:11:01.480 --> 0:11:04.080 That's all he wanted to do was watch the football game. 0:11:04.600 --> 0:11:07.520 So he sort of absentmindedly talked to me while he 0:11:07.600 --> 0:11:12.720 watched the football game. So that was and then he said, well, 0:11:12.720 --> 0:11:14.640 we're eventually we're going to be doing a golf course 0:11:14.720 --> 0:11:16.840 up near all in North Carolina. Turned out to be 0:11:16.880 --> 0:11:20.240 the Cardinal Club in Greatsboro. He said, you can come 0:11:20.280 --> 0:11:22.959 out there and maybe maybe we'll find something for you 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:26.120 to do. It was another year or more after that 0:11:26.320 --> 0:11:30.960 they actually started the Cardinal Whenever. He didn't remember me 0:11:31.040 --> 0:11:37.800 from anybody, I mean, you know, but he Hey, I 0:11:37.880 --> 0:11:39.120 was persistent. 0:11:38.960 --> 0:11:44.000 And serving immediate me. You you fixed his problem. You 0:11:44.000 --> 0:11:46.800 want to watch the Dolphins, and you're probably a great 0:11:46.840 --> 0:11:48.040 excuse for him to get. 0:11:47.880 --> 0:11:50.680 Out exactly he was able to sit there and watch 0:11:50.720 --> 0:11:53.680 the entire game. The game was over gone, you know, 0:11:54.600 --> 0:11:59.000 so uh, but it was. It was just one of 0:11:59.040 --> 0:12:02.079 those sort of odd things that happens. 0:12:02.360 --> 0:12:07.040 What you know, everybody talks about the railroad ties and 0:12:07.080 --> 0:12:10.760 then you know, people remembering for the TPC courses he 0:12:10.840 --> 0:12:13.520 built like they've been a regular fan. But like, what 0:12:13.520 --> 0:12:18.120 would you say is the most underappreciated aspect of Pete 0:12:18.160 --> 0:12:20.680 That's work as an architect. 0:12:21.000 --> 0:12:25.360 He changed the direction of golf architecture twice. Yeah, that's 0:12:25.880 --> 0:12:28.240 I know, no one else has ever done that for me. 0:12:29.520 --> 0:12:33.000 He started, you know, he first changed it with courses 0:12:33.120 --> 0:12:37.760 like Arbortown when Robert trip Jones Senior was doing the 0:12:37.840 --> 0:12:45.360 exact opposite doing, you know, Parsivy to seven thousand yard 0:12:45.480 --> 0:12:49.040 championship golf courses. That was the thing, that was the motto, 0:12:49.360 --> 0:12:55.000 that was the selling point, and Pete went to the 0:12:55.040 --> 0:12:59.200 exact opposite direction, shorter from the est course was quirky. 0:12:59.760 --> 0:13:02.839 He seen Ian Alice has seen the railroad ties when 0:13:02.880 --> 0:13:05.400 they played a lot in Scotland and thought, well that 0:13:05.400 --> 0:13:08.679 could work, we can do something of that. And it 0:13:08.800 --> 0:13:11.800 was just something that people in this country, unless they 0:13:11.840 --> 0:13:15.560 had traveled to Scotland or Ireland, they just weren't used to. 0:13:15.800 --> 0:13:20.840 So the fact that Harbor Town was so well received. 0:13:20.960 --> 0:13:23.640 I think the first tournament there was in nineteen seventy 0:13:23.720 --> 0:13:28.760 and I recalled Arnold potter Wood and so the fact 0:13:28.800 --> 0:13:34.120 that was so well received instantly put him, you know, 0:13:34.520 --> 0:13:38.400 in the public eye as far as the golf course architect, 0:13:38.520 --> 0:13:42.440 and pretty soon everything you saw started going in that direction. 0:13:43.640 --> 0:13:49.439 Well then when the TPC Jacksonville came in, which is 0:13:49.520 --> 0:13:55.880 many years later, but he changed it again completely there. 0:13:56.640 --> 0:14:00.200 So I know, I know, no one else's who has 0:14:00.280 --> 0:14:05.280 done that. It was actually changed. And once Pete did 0:14:05.320 --> 0:14:09.880 Harbortown and the finesse course type type situation, and then 0:14:09.920 --> 0:14:14.840 when he changed to the more challenging, longer whatever you 0:14:14.880 --> 0:14:18.880 want to how you want to describe it, TPC type course, 0:14:19.600 --> 0:14:22.440 the next thing he saw almost everyone was doing the same. 0:14:23.080 --> 0:14:27.560 It was just he he literally changes not just the direction. 0:14:27.800 --> 0:14:31.960 But if you watch the progression, you saw many courses 0:14:32.000 --> 0:14:36.480 appear like like Pete's early course at Harbortown. But then 0:14:36.520 --> 0:14:40.920 after TPC you saw many many courses appear that suddenly 0:14:40.960 --> 0:14:41.600 looked like that. 0:14:43.120 --> 0:14:49.120 Yeah, the architecture industry through time has changed so many times. 0:14:48.760 --> 0:14:53.200 It's very it's kind of crazy about for one game to. 0:14:53.240 --> 0:14:55.920 Do it lice. Yeah, I know no one else has 0:14:55.960 --> 0:14:56.320 done that. 0:14:58.480 --> 0:15:02.040 So a lot of people say that he died of 0:15:02.360 --> 0:15:07.360 penal art attack versus a strategic one. What would what 0:15:07.400 --> 0:15:08.680 would you consider. 0:15:08.960 --> 0:15:17.520 Being well And I think certainly I'm a bit partial 0:15:17.920 --> 0:15:23.960 to Pete Harbor Towns, the speak phase or finesse was 0:15:24.000 --> 0:15:28.840 a little more uh at the cornerstone of the golf course. 0:15:28.920 --> 0:15:34.360 And they think then they were extraordinarily strategic, playing to 0:15:34.440 --> 0:15:38.040 certain positions to get to other to get to angles 0:15:38.040 --> 0:15:41.520 and things. I think is Pete saw the game changing, 0:15:42.320 --> 0:15:46.920 meaning players eating about farther and farther and farther, and 0:15:46.920 --> 0:15:51.760 and in the I think is he then changed to 0:15:51.840 --> 0:15:56.720 try to challenge those those players at the TBC courses. 0:15:59.000 --> 0:16:03.120 They were still strate, they were certainly strategic for you know, 0:16:03.440 --> 0:16:06.800 the best players. They still wanted to play to certain positions, 0:16:07.360 --> 0:16:13.400 usually right next to some very visible hazard and uh T, 0:16:13.520 --> 0:16:17.040 you would always give you something to look at. There 0:16:17.120 --> 0:16:20.920 was always something in your eye as a player, and 0:16:21.680 --> 0:16:24.040 more often than I that you could play close to 0:16:24.080 --> 0:16:28.120 that you you had an advantage in some way. But 0:16:32.120 --> 0:16:37.040 you know, I think I think the analysis and the 0:16:37.120 --> 0:16:39.800 work that they've done through the years is this is 0:16:39.880 --> 0:16:46.400 some absolutely fascinating, fascinating courses. And yet you do hear 0:16:46.480 --> 0:16:48.960 about was very penal. I think a lot of that 0:16:49.040 --> 0:16:52.120 depends on what teams you play from. I think a 0:16:52.160 --> 0:17:00.800 lot of it, you know, is a situation. There's more 0:17:00.880 --> 0:17:04.639 the impression that comes from the tp C course type, 0:17:05.280 --> 0:17:12.000 famous of their of their architecture. So I see it 0:17:12.040 --> 0:17:14.880 as a strategic and penal book. 0:17:15.520 --> 0:17:19.720 Yeah, I agree, I think I wanted it. I just 0:17:19.800 --> 0:17:23.399 think I follow on the strategic size because and I 0:17:24.200 --> 0:17:27.040 grew up playing with the Dave Horse in Florida like 0:17:27.160 --> 0:17:31.280 all every family vacation, and you know, I still want 0:17:31.359 --> 0:17:35.240 to go there. It's all angles, and you know, you 0:17:35.400 --> 0:17:37.359 do have to be a little bit better for the player, 0:17:37.520 --> 0:17:40.560 but the strategy is so good and all that stuff. 0:17:40.960 --> 0:17:44.440 I had Brian Silva on the podcast a few months 0:17:44.480 --> 0:17:48.920 ago and he said he had an architectural awakening when 0:17:48.960 --> 0:17:51.000 he was sitting in a I think he was in 0:17:51.080 --> 0:17:54.800 a doctor's waiting room looking at us worst illustrated and 0:17:54.920 --> 0:17:59.120 he saw the arial PGA West and all of a sudden, 0:17:59.160 --> 0:18:01.960 the light bulb went off about the angles and how 0:18:02.600 --> 0:18:08.440 fundamentally change ad designed courses and not any architects going. 0:18:08.440 --> 0:18:14.480 To do that. So yeah, it's again, Pete. Allas were 0:18:14.560 --> 0:18:18.240 amazing with that and the thing they were able to 0:18:18.320 --> 0:18:21.960 do too, I think Andy's they could do some really 0:18:22.640 --> 0:18:26.000 unusual type country and whether you want to call it 0:18:26.080 --> 0:18:28.800 the mounds or even the you know, the railroad ties 0:18:28.800 --> 0:18:32.240 along the water, and then the certain types of greens, 0:18:33.240 --> 0:18:38.280 shapes and angles and but it's really abrupt things that 0:18:38.880 --> 0:18:45.040 people were necessarily used to seeing and yet they work. Yeah, 0:18:45.520 --> 0:18:49.840 it's very, very seldom uliarious, Pete die golf course, even 0:18:49.880 --> 0:18:52.959 a whole of the pee die golf course that doesn't 0:18:53.200 --> 0:18:57.280 function from a playing standpoint. And the other people who 0:18:57.400 --> 0:19:00.520 then said, oh, that's what's selling now, that's what I'm 0:19:00.560 --> 0:19:05.920 going to produce, never I don't oftentimes didn't have the 0:19:06.000 --> 0:19:12.040 same insight as to how you truly played golf within 0:19:12.160 --> 0:19:14.840 the confines of the golf course. And so you would 0:19:14.880 --> 0:19:21.800 see some knockoff models, shall we say, of TPC courses 0:19:21.920 --> 0:19:27.159 that that probably were far too people because of them 0:19:27.520 --> 0:19:31.360 that there was just probably not that bit of insight 0:19:31.520 --> 0:19:34.800 as to how will this actually play? How was this 0:19:34.920 --> 0:19:40.960 actually look like exactly visually because they might have mounds 0:19:41.000 --> 0:19:44.240 and pot bunkers and or water down the side or 0:19:44.760 --> 0:19:49.600 certain angles and things. You always not the same. But 0:19:49.720 --> 0:19:52.560 when it came down to the ability to move your 0:19:52.640 --> 0:19:58.280 golf ball through the golf course and be successful, a 0:19:58.359 --> 0:20:01.960 lot of times, you know, other people just didn't have 0:20:02.080 --> 0:20:04.640 the same insight that Pete did as how to make 0:20:04.680 --> 0:20:05.120 that work. 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:09.560 So obviously, if he died and had a big influence. 0:20:09.119 --> 0:20:11.320 In your career, who would. 0:20:11.080 --> 0:20:14.520 You say, are some other like gold made architects that 0:20:14.880 --> 0:20:16.040 you draw in things? 0:20:18.280 --> 0:20:21.560 Well, again, having grown up in North Carolina, and been 0:20:21.680 --> 0:20:24.359 exposed to a lot of dollar Ross courses that I 0:20:24.440 --> 0:20:28.040 would have to say, mister Ross without a question, played 0:20:28.960 --> 0:20:31.880 a lot of his courses when I was a kid, 0:20:32.000 --> 0:20:37.680 and of course since then. But then Perry Maxwell because 0:20:37.760 --> 0:20:42.240 of Old Town and mentioned earlier about the genius of 0:20:42.280 --> 0:20:45.840 the routing of Old Town of a very severe, relatively 0:20:45.920 --> 0:20:50.240 small site. But the greens contours Old Town had some 0:20:50.320 --> 0:20:54.360 of the most amazing greens and with regard to internal 0:20:54.480 --> 0:20:57.639 contours and the hunting syrup of the Maxwell rolls as 0:20:57.720 --> 0:21:01.399 they were called. And at the time when I was 0:21:01.480 --> 0:21:05.280 playing in Old Town, I didn't I've never seen southern 0:21:05.400 --> 0:21:09.800 hills or prairie dunes or crystal downs or other courses 0:21:09.880 --> 0:21:16.000 that mister Maxwell had had designed, and so I just 0:21:16.080 --> 0:21:19.000 didn't know these greens are These greens are amazing and 0:21:19.080 --> 0:21:22.760 they're interesting, and they were so different than than other 0:21:22.840 --> 0:21:27.320 places should go because the con true were internal to 0:21:27.440 --> 0:21:31.320 the putting services. They weren't all in the edges, feeding 0:21:31.480 --> 0:21:34.640 down in and then disappearing in the putting services. These 0:21:35.280 --> 0:21:38.200 you might start quietly on the edges and then something 0:21:38.720 --> 0:21:42.320 a Maxwell role will appear use which you used beautifully 0:21:42.480 --> 0:21:46.880 to separate levels. You know, in the Green, So that's 0:21:47.200 --> 0:21:51.200 not Perry Maxwell and uh and Donald Ross and then 0:21:51.240 --> 0:21:53.720 of courses in as you go see McKenzie courses, I 0:21:53.760 --> 0:21:57.480 guess we've all. You know, they're so inspirational in their 0:21:57.600 --> 0:22:01.639 vision and the creativity, you go, wow, look at that? 0:22:01.960 --> 0:22:06.560 Whoever thought of that? And then you go see you know, 0:22:06.680 --> 0:22:10.320 see b McDonald or Seth Rainer things, and you go, 0:22:11.680 --> 0:22:15.200 I could ever think of that? Who have arethought? And 0:22:15.600 --> 0:22:19.680 uh so when you start putting it all comes into Lakers. 0:22:20.080 --> 0:22:24.840 But Ross was a very early layer, followed by Maxwell 0:22:25.200 --> 0:22:30.080 and then followed by you know others, but certainly including 0:22:30.600 --> 0:22:32.639 mckin So you. 0:22:32.680 --> 0:22:39.080 Could build like a super team golden major architects. You got, 0:22:39.440 --> 0:22:42.320 you got. You can have somebody do multiple taps. But 0:22:42.480 --> 0:22:48.600 you have somebody doing greens routing and we'll say strategy 0:22:49.400 --> 0:22:52.760 and another guy doing like a Senex and bompering. How 0:22:52.760 --> 0:22:53.680 would you put it together? 0:22:55.800 --> 0:22:59.879 Well? I don't know. And were those guys were all 0:23:00.200 --> 0:23:05.040 good at all those things? And I don't know that 0:23:05.240 --> 0:23:06.280 any one of them. 0:23:07.640 --> 0:23:07.680 Was. 0:23:09.760 --> 0:23:13.399 You know, I'd say it was the absolute best among 0:23:13.480 --> 0:23:16.879 the names you mentioned at any one of those. I 0:23:17.000 --> 0:23:23.600 think mackenzie certainly had a flair for the visual inspirational presentation. 0:23:23.960 --> 0:23:27.159 I mean it's just you go to his courses and 0:23:27.400 --> 0:23:31.119 just the visual h and of course a lot that 0:23:31.200 --> 0:23:32.920 has to do with the site team that he got 0:23:32.960 --> 0:23:37.400 to work with too. But I don't know that I've 0:23:37.440 --> 0:23:41.160 ever ever walked onto or off of mcken of course 0:23:41.240 --> 0:23:45.920 that you just didn't find the inspiring. And you know, 0:23:47.080 --> 0:23:53.960 having said that, the Maxwell courses truly truly extraordinary, or 0:23:54.080 --> 0:23:59.560 they maybe is visually inspiring as McKenzie courses. Maybe not, 0:24:00.880 --> 0:24:07.879 but I've never seen a Maxwell course. It wasn't well routed. 0:24:08.520 --> 0:24:11.240 But more than that, it was the greens. It was 0:24:11.320 --> 0:24:14.800 the green country. But can you say Maxwell's greens were 0:24:14.840 --> 0:24:18.399 better than Ross's greens were better than Mackenzie's green No, 0:24:18.640 --> 0:24:22.800 They're just different. That's what made the whole era so interesting. 0:24:22.960 --> 0:24:26.080 From a goth architecture perspective. We just had all these 0:24:27.240 --> 0:24:31.439 these different perspectives, different presentations that were being put forth, 0:24:31.720 --> 0:24:36.080 all of which were based upon trying to complement the 0:24:36.280 --> 0:24:39.720 natural landscapes. They had to work with, find interesting sites 0:24:39.760 --> 0:24:43.280 and then showcase those and bring the life of golf 0:24:43.440 --> 0:24:47.600 in the most natural fashions from those interesting sites. So 0:24:49.720 --> 0:24:52.680 I truly don't think I can say, oh, this one 0:24:52.840 --> 0:24:55.040 was better at this, that one was better at that. 0:24:56.520 --> 0:25:00.640 It's pretty much toss up type material there really great. 0:25:01.480 --> 0:25:06.120 Yeah, yeah, and they're all different, you have unique and different. 0:25:06.600 --> 0:25:10.399 Oh you go again, you you go, watch you go 0:25:11.200 --> 0:25:16.200 boats of McKenzie course and point you know something, and 0:25:16.280 --> 0:25:18.879 you you walk around and say, oh man, this is 0:25:18.920 --> 0:25:23.240 some of the most interesting you know, certainly landscape some 0:25:23.560 --> 0:25:26.400 most beautiful course in the world probably, but the greens 0:25:26.560 --> 0:25:29.960 really interesting in this and that, and you go, Perry Dish, 0:25:30.040 --> 0:25:32.240 you know, wow, these may be some of the most 0:25:32.359 --> 0:25:37.320 interesting greens ever. And then you and then you know, 0:25:37.680 --> 0:25:42.040 you go to just different places and as soon as 0:25:42.080 --> 0:25:45.879 you think something's the best, oftentimes you walk off from 0:25:45.920 --> 0:25:48.639 another course. Wow, I thought that was maybe this is 0:25:49.040 --> 0:25:52.480 maybe this is just good. You know, it's fascinating to 0:25:52.520 --> 0:25:55.080 walk around Opel. Then you look at it and you go, 0:25:55.760 --> 0:25:58.560 this may be the most amazing set of greens in 0:25:58.600 --> 0:26:02.160 the world, you know, in terms of conters in the greens, 0:26:03.160 --> 0:26:06.359 and that, to me, it is just the beauty of 0:26:06.680 --> 0:26:12.960 there's no one has an absolute lock oh the best. 0:26:13.720 --> 0:26:16.320 It's it's so much into I felt the same way 0:26:16.400 --> 0:26:20.600 the summer, but I played some really great spots and 0:26:20.840 --> 0:26:23.840 every time I walk off. You know, a perfect example, 0:26:23.840 --> 0:26:28.000 I played Saduels. I was like, man, that was unbelievable. 0:26:28.920 --> 0:26:31.399 And then, you know, a month or so later, I 0:26:31.480 --> 0:26:34.320 got a chance to play Crystal Downs and I walked 0:26:34.359 --> 0:26:36.399 out that and I was like, and I think. 0:26:36.359 --> 0:26:37.600 Best of course in the world. 0:26:38.800 --> 0:26:42.160 But it's it's like if I want back and samphils 0:26:42.160 --> 0:26:44.160 are fuel the exact same way. 0:26:44.960 --> 0:26:47.600 Well, that's true. That's how I look at some of these, 0:26:48.560 --> 0:26:57.240 you know, different journalistic grap you know, rankings, and they're 0:26:57.280 --> 0:27:00.440 all it's all fascinating to read and in all this, 0:27:00.640 --> 0:27:04.440 but I look at them, really, can there be a 0:27:04.560 --> 0:27:07.400