WEBVTT - Ken Klippenstein & Michael Waldman 0:00:00.640 --> 0:00:04.160 Hi, I'm Molly John Fast and this is Fast Politics, 0:00:04.360 --> 0:00:07.120 where we discussed the top political headlines with some of 0:00:07.160 --> 0:00:13.640 today's best minds, and CNN's Harry Enton says jd Vance 0:00:13.720 --> 0:00:16.800 is most likely to be the GOP nominee in twenty 0:00:16.840 --> 0:00:17.480 twenty eight. 0:00:17.640 --> 0:00:20.799 We have such a great show for you today. Substacks 0:00:20.880 --> 0:00:24.840 owned Ken Klippenstein stops by to talk to us about 0:00:24.880 --> 0:00:28.360 the time the FBI showed up at his door. Then 0:00:28.440 --> 0:00:32.800 we'll talk to the Brennan Center's own Michael Waldman about 0:00:32.920 --> 0:00:35.960 the Brennan Center's report on how Trump is trying to 0:00:36.120 --> 0:00:39.480 rig the midterms with a number of insane proposals. 0:00:39.520 --> 0:00:44.919 But first the news Somali Trump's team is picking a 0:00:44.920 --> 0:00:46.040 fight with a big boy. 0:00:46.240 --> 0:00:47.880 I don't think they should mess with it because he's 0:00:47.920 --> 0:00:48.960 way smarter than them. 0:00:49.200 --> 0:00:54.840 He's smarter, he's richer, and he's tougher, and he's also 0:00:55.240 --> 0:01:00.600 just gonna win Governor Pritzker. Donald Trump very mad anyone 0:01:00.720 --> 0:01:07.280 who dare disobey his insane cryptocracy. Basically, the White House 0:01:07.680 --> 0:01:10.000 had a project to keep invasive fish out of the 0:01:10.000 --> 0:01:14.440 Great Lakes. Installed Why Donald Trump cares about invasive fish? 0:01:14.640 --> 0:01:17.520 I mean, my man doesn't believe climate change is real. 0:01:17.920 --> 0:01:20.880 But you know, the point is he's using something to 0:01:21.040 --> 0:01:22.480 blame pritz Gart. 0:01:22.520 --> 0:01:24.319 When I heard about this, I thought this was like 0:01:24.360 --> 0:01:26.640 the plot of the South Park episode the other night, 0:01:26.760 --> 0:01:29.160 like like an invasive fish, Like, what the hell is 0:01:29.200 --> 0:01:29.880 going on here? 0:01:30.120 --> 0:01:30.360 Yeah? 0:01:30.400 --> 0:01:32.800 I mean, look, I think it's important to take a 0:01:32.840 --> 0:01:34.600 minute here to talk about South Park. 0:01:34.760 --> 0:01:36.000 I watched last night. Was amazing. 0:01:36.000 --> 0:01:37.959 I can't believe I think South Park is amazing in 0:01:38.000 --> 0:01:39.640 twenty twenty five, but it was amazing. 0:01:39.680 --> 0:01:40.520 They did a great job. 0:01:40.840 --> 0:01:44.680 South Park is the new CNN. I think we should 0:01:44.680 --> 0:01:48.160 all agree that the White House Press Corps dreams of 0:01:48.240 --> 0:01:50.720 doing as good a job of summing up this White 0:01:50.800 --> 0:01:55.360 House as South Park. Thank you Trey and Matt for 0:01:55.640 --> 0:02:01.480 doing what the mainstream media cannot narrating our downfall into kryptocracy. 0:02:01.840 --> 0:02:05.520 Personally, I never thought i'd be spiling while dogs get shot. 0:02:05.800 --> 0:02:10.240 Yes, you're giving it away. And by the way, let 0:02:10.240 --> 0:02:13.240 me just say, if you don't think that Matt and 0:02:13.240 --> 0:02:17.800 Trey are going to end up in Seacott or Alligator Alcatraz, 0:02:18.040 --> 0:02:21.840 you are wrong, because Christy Nome has Actually, I think 0:02:21.880 --> 0:02:25.120 she responded to the episode numerous times. 0:02:25.160 --> 0:02:28.120 In fact, as did mister j Dvantz pretending he's hit 0:02:28.160 --> 0:02:30.000 on the joke when he very much is not. 0:02:30.280 --> 0:02:32.920 Yeah, you know, you really see how much politics is 0:02:32.960 --> 0:02:37.320 downstream of culture and how the culture does in fact dictate, 0:02:37.440 --> 0:02:40.480 and South Park is a great example of that. They 0:02:40.520 --> 0:02:43.400 have really just nailed it in a way that is 0:02:43.440 --> 0:02:45.520 important and also accurate. 0:02:45.720 --> 0:02:47.960 Yeah, you make a great point, like too much the 0:02:48.080 --> 0:02:52.600 character it doesn't resemble the actual person charactered, and this 0:02:52.840 --> 0:02:56.040 really is like just dead on showing what. 0:02:55.960 --> 0:02:56.440 They are like. 0:02:56.760 --> 0:03:01.320 It's actually weirdly more accurate because there's so much anxiety 0:03:01.440 --> 0:03:05.320 about all of the lawsuits and ways in which different 0:03:05.440 --> 0:03:08.720 groups have been targeted, and that anxiety has really worked 0:03:08.880 --> 0:03:12.440 to silence a lot of us. So to watch Matt 0:03:12.480 --> 0:03:17.200 and Trey just go after it, I mean, Bravo team. 0:03:17.240 --> 0:03:21.680 Speaking of that, there's actually been some really interesting pushbacks 0:03:21.680 --> 0:03:24.640 from journalists this week going much harder on politicians. This 0:03:24.720 --> 0:03:27.280 one you flagged for me, I think is really really 0:03:27.280 --> 0:03:27.680 great with. 0:03:27.680 --> 0:03:31.080 You, Nancy Mace, that was really that was really great. 0:03:31.120 --> 0:03:34.200 But this is Joe Scarborough versus Mike Waller, one of 0:03:34.240 --> 0:03:37.600 the biggest lying liars there is in our congressional body, 0:03:37.600 --> 0:03:38.720 which is really saying something. 0:03:38.760 --> 0:03:39.560 Let me play it for you. 0:03:39.680 --> 0:03:47.400 Well, respectfully, Mike. The Congressional Budget Office, which obviously is 0:03:47.520 --> 0:03:50.720 part of the institution where you serve, says that it 0:03:50.760 --> 0:03:55.160 should be about nine hundred billion to one trillion dollars 0:03:55.200 --> 0:03:58.720 in Medicaid cuts. If you look at the hospitals in 0:03:58.760 --> 0:04:02.720 your own district, Modi forty Nayak Hospital is already saying 0:04:03.480 --> 0:04:07.000 because of that vote, because of these cuts, they're going 0:04:07.640 --> 0:04:10.160 to have to cut back services, They're going to have 0:04:10.200 --> 0:04:12.800 to cut staff, they're going to have to cut care. 0:04:13.400 --> 0:04:18.000 Same thing with Westchester Hospital. Hospitals across your district are 0:04:18.040 --> 0:04:21.719 going to have to cut services and care and staff 0:04:21.800 --> 0:04:25.479 members and budgets because of your vote and because of 0:04:25.520 --> 0:04:28.960 this bill that passes. That's what they're saying. It's not 0:04:29.120 --> 0:04:36.000 some left wing focus. Well, I'm just telling you what 0:04:36.120 --> 0:04:38.320 they what they've said. Uh. 0:04:38.360 --> 0:04:42.000 And so what they're what you're parroting, what they're parenting 0:04:42.080 --> 0:04:44.760 is the same talking points being put out by the state. 0:04:45.360 --> 0:04:45.520 Uh. 0:04:45.560 --> 0:04:49.560 And you one to know their business matter. 0:04:49.800 --> 0:04:52.120 You know, you know their business better than they know 0:04:52.240 --> 0:04:55.280 their business. Conferenceman, you can keep talking if you want to, 0:04:55.760 --> 0:04:59.840 But are you saying that they know you know their business? 0:05:00.200 --> 0:05:01.800 You know doctor's business. 0:05:02.040 --> 0:05:05.960 You know hospital administrator's business better than they know their 0:05:06.080 --> 0:05:08.560 own business. Is that what you're telling us here. 0:05:08.839 --> 0:05:11.160 No, Joe, if you'd stop putting words in my mouth 0:05:11.240 --> 0:05:12.440 and let me answer the. 0:05:12.440 --> 0:05:16.279 Question, awesome, Yeah, awesome, awesome, awesome. 0:05:16.320 --> 0:05:19.000 More of that, especially because he's one of the main 0:05:19.080 --> 0:05:21.800 people who knows that the journalists won't push background, so 0:05:21.839 --> 0:05:23.880 he whis his ass off. He is one of the 0:05:23.880 --> 0:05:25.440 worst in the business at it. 0:05:25.680 --> 0:05:30.080 Yeah. Yeah, yeah, that is such an incredible piece of 0:05:30.160 --> 0:05:33.800 pushing back. And also you see like they just don't 0:05:33.839 --> 0:05:36.520 have an answer, and it's really why we have to 0:05:36.839 --> 0:05:40.039 when you're interviewing these people, you have to do it 0:05:40.560 --> 0:05:41.400 so molly. 0:05:41.440 --> 0:05:44.599 As we know, Democrats have fled Texas to not allow 0:05:44.720 --> 0:05:48.640 quorum and you know who's big Matt, Texas Governor Greg ABBITTT. 0:05:48.720 --> 0:05:53.560 Yeah. Look, they're threatening a lot to do a lot 0:05:53.560 --> 0:05:56.960 of stupid crap. But the reality is breaking quorum is 0:05:57.000 --> 0:05:59.320 not breaking the law. This is a sort of civil 0:05:59.440 --> 0:06:03.200 Texas and not an illegal, illegal thing. And despite the 0:06:03.279 --> 0:06:06.960 fact that John Cornyn called in for the FBI and 0:06:07.160 --> 0:06:11.600 Cash is making noise to make noise, this is not right, 0:06:11.760 --> 0:06:15.080 like they are representing their district and in fact, Trump 0:06:15.160 --> 0:06:18.240 one fifty six percent of the votes in Texas in 0:06:18.279 --> 0:06:22.839 twenty twenty four, which means that redistricting would in fact 0:06:23.040 --> 0:06:25.960 make it so that Republicans controlled I don't know one 0:06:26.040 --> 0:06:27.080 hundred percent of the seats. 0:06:27.520 --> 0:06:29.720 Hm, it's not a representative of democracy. 0:06:29.760 --> 0:06:32.119 I think what Democrats are doing here is really good 0:06:32.200 --> 0:06:34.640 and really smart, and I also think that they should 0:06:34.720 --> 0:06:37.120 keep it going, and I don't think they should go back. 0:06:37.160 --> 0:06:41.600 There's some talk that maybe a Paxton an Abbott will 0:06:41.680 --> 0:06:45.440 try and call another special session, but you know, they 0:06:45.480 --> 0:06:48.479 could just stay. Like, there is no reason that those 0:06:48.520 --> 0:06:51.360 Democrats have to go back. I mean, obviously it sucks 0:06:51.360 --> 0:06:53.440 for them not to be at home, but like this 0:06:53.640 --> 0:06:58.919 matters more. This is like they're morally correct, they're politically 0:06:58.960 --> 0:07:01.560 on the right side of history. And the more that 0:07:01.600 --> 0:07:04.880 this builds, the more attention it gets, the better served 0:07:05.120 --> 0:07:08.799 everyone who is on this side of democracy is these 0:07:08.920 --> 0:07:11.680 Texas state reps are doing God's work and they need 0:07:11.720 --> 0:07:13.960 to keep doing it, and we need to keep telling 0:07:14.000 --> 0:07:16.440 them they're doing the right thing, because like this is 0:07:16.600 --> 0:07:24.280 undermining our democracy in a big, big way. Kenklippenstein is 0:07:24.320 --> 0:07:27.880 the author of the substack of the same name. Welcome 0:07:27.960 --> 0:07:29.040 to fast politics. 0:07:29.120 --> 0:07:31.040 Ken, Hey, go to be back with you. 0:07:31.360 --> 0:07:34.400 I was saying before this that I feel like you're 0:07:34.680 --> 0:07:39.160 the troublemaker I dream of being, and you are getting 0:07:39.200 --> 0:07:43.120 into you'll excuse the cliche, here some good trouble. So 0:07:43.360 --> 0:07:46.560 you have run a foul of the cash Patel FBI, 0:07:46.840 --> 0:07:48.880 and I would love for you to start with this 0:07:48.920 --> 0:07:50.200 story because it's amazing. 0:07:50.800 --> 0:07:53.440 Yeah, you're talking about the nihilistic, violent extremist story. 0:07:53.720 --> 0:07:55.680 Well, I would love you to start with when they 0:07:55.840 --> 0:07:58.400 visited you, Like, I feel like there's a there's a 0:07:58.560 --> 0:08:04.720 long character r about car. Yeah, start with how the 0:08:04.840 --> 0:08:07.520 FBI came to recognize you. 0:08:07.840 --> 0:08:11.720 Okay, So the JD Vance vetting documents called the dossier. 0:08:11.880 --> 0:08:13.520 I feel like that elevates it a little bit higher 0:08:13.560 --> 0:08:15.160 than it should, because really what it was was the 0:08:15.160 --> 0:08:18.720 Trump campaigns just looking at different potential candidates for VP 0:08:18.920 --> 0:08:21.960 prior to when they picked Senator then Senator Vance and 0:08:22.080 --> 0:08:25.480 just listing out his liabilities and so you know, when 0:08:25.480 --> 0:08:27.480 I had this described me it ultimately sent to me 0:08:27.720 --> 0:08:30.560 by it was hacked by the Ran government and said 0:08:31.000 --> 0:08:35.439 I said that in the story so we could know yep, 0:08:35.520 --> 0:08:38.920 and that's what precipitated the FBI visit because I thought, well, 0:08:38.960 --> 0:08:42.360 you know, back during Clinton they'd published this stuff, and 0:08:42.559 --> 0:08:44.480 in this case, I look at it and there's no 0:08:44.559 --> 0:08:46.679 question that it's factual. If there was any question that 0:08:46.679 --> 0:08:48.840 it was factual, I would approach it differently. But it's 0:08:48.880 --> 0:08:51.240 all just open source stuff that you can go and verify. 0:08:51.280 --> 0:08:52.600 So I would, you know, I would feel bad just 0:08:52.600 --> 0:08:55.600 putting out like say, for instance, the Steele dossier has 0:08:55.600 --> 0:08:58.440 all these sensational claims that you can't really vet. So 0:08:58.480 --> 0:09:00.719 it's like I would feel bad post something like that. 0:09:00.800 --> 0:09:03.280 But like in the case of just open stories stuff 0:09:03.320 --> 0:09:06.120 on like his votes, on his comments on Trump in 0:09:06.160 --> 0:09:09.240 the past, just like explicitly political stuff. So I thought, well, 0:09:09.240 --> 0:09:10.720 why shouldn't this be out there as long as you 0:09:10.760 --> 0:09:13.320 explain to people the providence and let them come to 0:09:13.360 --> 0:09:16.240 their own conclusion so that they're not seeing that, you know, 0:09:16.280 --> 0:09:18.240 like the Uranians put this out there, they obviously have 0:09:18.320 --> 0:09:21.160 their set of reasons for doing so, you know, make 0:09:21.240 --> 0:09:22.800 of that what you will. And so that's what I did. 0:09:23.280 --> 0:09:25.600 And about two weeks later, I got a visit from 0:09:25.679 --> 0:09:30.679 a pencil neck, very young FBI special agent who looked 0:09:30.720 --> 0:09:33.160 like he might have tripped on his himbilical cord on 0:09:33.200 --> 0:09:35.800 the way here, because he was just so such a youngster, 0:09:36.000 --> 0:09:39.640 a nice guy, and he he introduced himself, you know, 0:09:39.760 --> 0:09:43.320 counter intelligence officer, blah blah blah. And so he's he 0:09:43.400 --> 0:09:46.280 reads me a written statement that he kind of opens 0:09:46.360 --> 0:09:48.920 up from his pocket. It's all very robotic and sort 0:09:48.920 --> 0:09:51.360 of stiff, and he's even sort of admitting. He's like, yeah, 0:09:51.360 --> 0:09:54.120 this is a little weird. I don't think the fbis 0:09:54.200 --> 0:09:56.840 necessarily should be always interacting with the media like this. 0:09:56.960 --> 0:09:59.000 But you know, I got sent here by Washington, so 0:09:59.040 --> 0:10:00.800 I got to read you the statement. So he says, 0:10:01.080 --> 0:10:03.080 you were the recipient of an Iranian government and then 0:10:03.080 --> 0:10:04.880 I kind off I said, yeah, I said that the story. 0:10:05.120 --> 0:10:07.320 He goes, you did I said, yeah, did you read it? 0:10:07.360 --> 0:10:08.920 He says no, he said when did you publish it? 0:10:09.000 --> 0:10:10.719 And I'm thinking to myself, this guy didn't even read 0:10:10.760 --> 0:10:12.439 the thing he's visiting to brief me on. 0:10:12.880 --> 0:10:15.240 So you just read the headline. I feel like this 0:10:15.360 --> 0:10:17.280 is a great example of someone just re reading the 0:10:17.280 --> 0:10:18.520 headline exactly. 0:10:18.600 --> 0:10:21.280 So he says, how long would you publish it? I said, ah, 0:10:21.280 --> 0:10:22.880 about two weeks ago, And I joked I was like, 0:10:22.920 --> 0:10:24.280 I thought you guys were going to consumer because I 0:10:24.320 --> 0:10:25.640 knew there would be a risk of something like this 0:10:25.679 --> 0:10:29.360 happening because of the politics involved. And he says, he says, 0:10:29.360 --> 0:10:31.720 two weeks that's pretty fast for the federal government, and 0:10:31.720 --> 0:10:33.320 so we're laughing about it. So the whole thing had 0:10:33.320 --> 0:10:35.679 this kind of kaugh Cask quality to it where he 0:10:35.760 --> 0:10:37.360 knew it was absurd. I knew it was absurd. He 0:10:37.440 --> 0:10:40.640 knew I knew it was absurd. So anyways, and then 0:10:40.679 --> 0:10:43.040 he leaves, Fortunately nothing happens, and then I got a 0:10:43.080 --> 0:10:47.560 second visit when I published the Manifesto of the Israel 0:10:47.559 --> 0:10:51.439 Embassy shooter in Washington several weeks ago, not to glorify him, 0:10:51.440 --> 0:10:53.960 and I very explicitly in the story say this is 0:10:53.960 --> 0:10:56.520 a terrible thing to have happened. And it wasn't a 0:10:56.559 --> 0:10:59.240 positive story. I talk about his Yeah. 0:10:59.040 --> 0:11:03.360 How do you get that that was leaked t L Yes, Okay, yeah, 0:11:03.440 --> 0:11:03.599 go on. 0:11:03.840 --> 0:11:06.480 So, so you know, in the story, I describe some 0:11:06.559 --> 0:11:09.720 of his personal problems and like kind of awful things 0:11:09.760 --> 0:11:11.400 he did to his friends. Like, I don't think anyone 0:11:11.400 --> 0:11:13.439 could look at that and say, this person who's glorifying 0:11:13.440 --> 0:11:16.120 what happened. I'm trying to tell what happens, that we 0:11:16.240 --> 0:11:18.560 understand what led up to this moment, and hopefully you 0:11:18.559 --> 0:11:20.880 can prevent the next one. So any case, I write 0:11:20.920 --> 0:11:23.040 that story, put it out there, the response is pretty positive. 0:11:23.040 --> 0:11:24.880 I thought it was going to be more angry, and 0:11:24.960 --> 0:11:28.240 so there wasn't much backlash until the FBI visit literally 0:11:28.320 --> 0:11:30.560 I think it was the next day, and this time 0:11:30.600 --> 0:11:32.200 it was much more aggressive than the first time. It 0:11:32.240 --> 0:11:35.440 was two older special agents that start saying, how did 0:11:35.480 --> 0:11:37.320 you get this? Why do you have this? And it's like, 0:11:38.000 --> 0:11:40.320 you know, I can't tell them who I got it from, 0:11:40.880 --> 0:11:43.000 but you know, you can guess that after something like 0:11:43.040 --> 0:11:46.520 this happens, this stuff is people are, you know, sending 0:11:46.520 --> 0:11:49.480 it around and so it's like pretty straightfward explanation. But 0:11:49.520 --> 0:11:52.320 D had this whole theory that, oh, did you have 0:11:52.360 --> 0:11:54.760 fore knowledge? I didn't have four knowledge of it. I 0:11:54.800 --> 0:11:56.560 found out the words like everyone else. 0:11:56.640 --> 0:11:59.280 Yeah, that wouldn't make any sense. I guess that's the 0:11:59.320 --> 0:12:03.520 only button they can press on that. But people, really, 0:12:03.640 --> 0:12:07.560 I mean releasing a manifesto, I mean there's a precedent 0:12:07.640 --> 0:12:09.040 for that too, right. 0:12:09.240 --> 0:12:11.400 Yeah, totally. To me, it's not about do you publish 0:12:11.480 --> 0:12:13.560 or now, it's how do you publish it? What kind 0:12:13.600 --> 0:12:14.840 of context do you include? 0:12:15.200 --> 0:12:15.440 Are you? 0:12:15.720 --> 0:12:17.800 Are you like it's a legitimate question, I ask, like, 0:12:17.840 --> 0:12:20.000 don't glorify it. But there's all kinds of ways you 0:12:20.040 --> 0:12:21.960 can talk about something. You can talk about it from 0:12:22.000 --> 0:12:24.160 the perspective of are there other people have these attitudes 0:12:24.240 --> 0:12:26.000 or something like this might happen? Are the things we 0:12:26.040 --> 0:12:28.360 can do to prevent or to kind of rebut these 0:12:28.520 --> 0:12:30.760 belief systems that lead people to do something like this, 0:12:31.040 --> 0:12:32.320 and so all of that I think is like a 0:12:32.360 --> 0:12:35.160 more healthy response to it, rather than sticking your head 0:12:35.200 --> 0:12:37.160 in the sand and being like, we're not going to 0:12:37.200 --> 0:12:39.960 talk about this because it's bad thing, and if people 0:12:40.000 --> 0:12:42.559 see it, they're just gonna, like the masuring candidate, just 0:12:42.600 --> 0:12:44.680 stand up and carry out order. It's like, people don't 0:12:44.679 --> 0:12:46.680 work that way. I have a higher respect for the 0:12:46.720 --> 0:12:48.920 public than evidently the FBI does. 0:12:49.679 --> 0:12:54.040 So what about talk to us about this? Nihil is this? Yeah? 0:12:54.200 --> 0:12:54.920 Talk to us about this? 0:12:55.080 --> 0:12:56.240 Yeah? Really? 0:12:56.760 --> 0:12:56.960 Yeah? 0:12:56.960 --> 0:12:59.360 A third next chapter of this story. Yeah, So they 0:12:59.360 --> 0:13:02.280 have a new threat category the FBI that I first 0:13:02.320 --> 0:13:05.360 reported based on court documents that I found. I saw 0:13:05.360 --> 0:13:06.839 this phrases like wait, I've never seen this before. I 0:13:06.880 --> 0:13:09.360 pay very close attention to The FBI has all kinds 0:13:09.360 --> 0:13:12.720 of different designations for threat actors. This is a completely 0:13:12.720 --> 0:13:15.480 new and nihilistic violent extremist. So I look it up 0:13:15.520 --> 0:13:17.560 and start talking to some special agent. I have some 0:13:17.600 --> 0:13:19.320 friends at FBI. I don't want to give the impression 0:13:19.320 --> 0:13:21.600 that across the board there were good people in all 0:13:21.640 --> 0:13:24.200 sorts of agencies, including that one, right, And so I 0:13:24.200 --> 0:13:26.120 asked them about it, and they basically tell me, oh, 0:13:26.160 --> 0:13:29.480 this is the new thing from Washington. Basically it's going 0:13:29.520 --> 0:13:31.920 to shift attention away from the white supremacist groups and 0:13:31.920 --> 0:13:34.240 the January sixth style stuff that they were focused on 0:13:34.320 --> 0:13:37.079 under the previous administration, and that carries with it. It's 0:13:37.080 --> 0:13:38.719 a cold on a second, you just did this and 0:13:38.760 --> 0:13:41.880 there's no public debate about like that. Were like, first 0:13:41.920 --> 0:13:43.840 of all, what even is that? And I'll get into 0:13:43.840 --> 0:13:46.400 that in a second. A second, is it okay to 0:13:46.600 --> 0:13:49.320 let this replace and supplant these other categories that they've 0:13:49.320 --> 0:13:50.960 been using for years and years? And is this going 0:13:51.000 --> 0:13:53.360 to mean that there's a politicized component to how they're 0:13:53.360 --> 0:13:55.560 going after these things? And so if you look at 0:13:55.600 --> 0:13:58.679 the definition, the definition is consistent. They're like they believe 0:13:58.760 --> 0:14:00.400 nothing and so I start looking through and there's some 0:14:00.400 --> 0:14:02.640 stomach turning cases. I don't want to minimize how awful 0:14:02.800 --> 0:14:04.680 it is some of the groups that they're going after 0:14:05.040 --> 0:14:08.040 what they do, but to call them nihilist just erases 0:14:08.080 --> 0:14:11.440 their politics. In some cases they're neo Nazis. That's not nihilists, 0:14:11.440 --> 0:14:12.560 that's a belief system. 0:14:12.960 --> 0:14:16.240 Yes, but let me just push back on that. Isn't 0:14:16.280 --> 0:14:18.760 it good that they're still going after neo Nazis? 0:14:19.280 --> 0:14:21.600 Oh definitely. I'm not saying that they shouldn't. 0:14:21.240 --> 0:14:23.720 Just like I was worried that they had stopped doing 0:14:23.760 --> 0:14:26.640 that stuff because they were like, these are our guys. 0:14:27.200 --> 0:14:29.720 My concern isn't that they're going after people committing crimes. 0:14:29.720 --> 0:14:33.000 Absolutely do that, particularly neo Nazis. My problem is that 0:14:33.040 --> 0:14:35.480 when you designate it something, then at the end of 0:14:35.520 --> 0:14:37.280 the year, in their own internal data and what they 0:14:37.320 --> 0:14:40.680 brief to Congress and how what informs their priorities going forward, 0:14:40.680 --> 0:14:42.760 they're going to say, ooh, there was an increase in 0:14:42.800 --> 0:14:44.920 Nihilsic violent extremists. And what they're going to see also 0:14:45.080 --> 0:14:48.120 is suddenly, oh, look at that Neo Nazi extremism went 0:14:48.160 --> 0:14:51.600 down because you've reclassified it under a different category. That's 0:14:51.640 --> 0:14:53.800 my concern is it's not It doesn't seem to me 0:14:53.840 --> 0:14:55.880 to be the appropriate category for what's going on. 0:14:56.360 --> 0:14:59.560 Right no question. I mean, that's for sure true. So 0:15:00.080 --> 0:15:02.800 I would love you to sort of talk to me 0:15:02.840 --> 0:15:06.080 about what you kind of think the national security landscape 0:15:06.120 --> 0:15:09.400 looks like at this moment, because you have Cash Batal 0:15:10.240 --> 0:15:14.280 and Dan Bongino at the FBI. You have, I mean, 0:15:14.320 --> 0:15:19.080 you just have so many, so much weirdness happening there. 0:15:19.200 --> 0:15:21.800 I'm wondering if you could, yeah, talk us through what 0:15:21.880 --> 0:15:25.160 you think it looks, what these agencies look like right now. 0:15:25.240 --> 0:15:25.400 Yeah. 0:15:25.400 --> 0:15:27.720 It's kind of ironic because Trump is trying to relitigate 0:15:27.800 --> 0:15:30.520 somebody having a decade ago Russia Gate and talking about 0:15:30.840 --> 0:15:32.640 the declassification of some of these records, which I'm not 0:15:32.680 --> 0:15:36.160 necessarily against, but it's like so long ago. And the 0:15:36.160 --> 0:15:39.960 biggest irony here is he's talking about how politicized that 0:15:39.960 --> 0:15:42.400 that whole thing was, which I in part can can 0:15:42.440 --> 0:15:44.760 see why he didn't like it and what his christims are, 0:15:44.840 --> 0:15:50.560 but then he's responding to it with this overtly politicized administration. Yes, 0:15:50.800 --> 0:15:53.320 everything he says is like, you know, call me and 0:15:53.440 --> 0:15:56.560 Hillary Clinton and the Democrats in Obama, It's like, are 0:15:56.600 --> 0:15:58.560 you kidding? I thought you said that you didn't like 0:15:58.600 --> 0:16:00.840 the politicization, so you're going to bond a fire with 0:16:00.920 --> 0:16:03.280 fire and it just doesn't make any sense. And if 0:16:03.280 --> 0:16:05.560 you look at the individual guys, I've been amazed at 0:16:05.680 --> 0:16:07.400 how much lack of vision in some ways there is 0:16:07.480 --> 0:16:10.160 because it is politicized, and they have this list of enemies, 0:16:10.200 --> 0:16:12.960 but it feels so dated, like who's thought about any 0:16:13.000 --> 0:16:15.800 of these names in ten years? And you know what 0:16:15.840 --> 0:16:18.600 I mean, It's like they're living in twenty sixteen. And 0:16:18.640 --> 0:16:21.280 then in addition to that, their ideas for the Bureau, 0:16:21.320 --> 0:16:24.360 this is very interesting. Initially the Trump proposed cuts to 0:16:24.360 --> 0:16:26.720 the bureau cash bat push back and said we actually 0:16:26.800 --> 0:16:28.480 need more money. I think what ended up happening at 0:16:28.680 --> 0:16:30.680 appropriations is they end up giving them that more money. 0:16:30.840 --> 0:16:33.400 So the kind of promise of shrinking the quote unquote 0:16:33.400 --> 0:16:36.200 deep state has just completely fallen by the wayside. And 0:16:36.240 --> 0:16:38.440 I don't think I don't think there's much appreciate. I mean, 0:16:39.080 --> 0:16:41.040 the paradox I think is most evident in the in 0:16:41.040 --> 0:16:44.080 the Epstein case, where they make all these lofty promises 0:16:44.400 --> 0:16:47.880 and then you see the Justice Department review, which if 0:16:47.920 --> 0:16:50.040 you read it carefully, has a sent incident that says 0:16:50.120 --> 0:16:52.720 Epstein had over a thousand victims, which suggests like, that's 0:16:52.760 --> 0:16:54.400 a that's more than I would have, that's more than 0:16:54.440 --> 0:16:56.960 we knew publicly before that prosecutor said it was something 0:16:56.960 --> 0:16:59.680 in the dozens. I thought it was two hundred. That's 0:16:59.720 --> 0:17:01.920 what they previously it said. And then in the final review, 0:17:01.960 --> 0:17:04.159 based on the documents and whatever, it's like, Okay, so 0:17:04.200 --> 0:17:06.280 there's something bigger here. I don't know exactly what, but 0:17:06.840 --> 0:17:10.359 like it's not unreasonable for people to say all those 0:17:10.400 --> 0:17:12.960 guys and just these two people did all of that. 0:17:13.359 --> 0:17:16.000 So but the administration is like pretending like nothing happened. 0:17:16.000 --> 0:17:17.480 They're just like, oh, what are you talking about? There's 0:17:17.480 --> 0:17:20.040 nothing there. It's like you just talked. You were just 0:17:20.160 --> 0:17:22.159 gas people up about this for the last eight years. 0:17:22.280 --> 0:17:24.000 So they're in this position where they have to deliver 0:17:24.440 --> 0:17:26.600 on demands for their base because they've failed in these 0:17:26.640 --> 0:17:28.840 different ways, like I'm talking about like the fbid budget, 0:17:28.960 --> 0:17:32.240 the Ebstein investigation, and that makes me nervous because it's like, well, 0:17:32.240 --> 0:17:33.359 how are they going to do that? And then you 0:17:33.400 --> 0:17:36.480 have these deployments to Los Angeles, you have the militarized 0:17:36.600 --> 0:17:39.760 FBI where they're blurring people's faces and public press releases. 0:17:40.000 --> 0:17:41.800 So it's like, I think they're under pressure to look 0:17:41.840 --> 0:17:43.600 like they're changing something, doing something. 0:17:43.720 --> 0:17:47.880 Yeah, I want to go into Ebstein because it's just fascinating. 0:17:48.200 --> 0:17:51.119 So the polling for like releasing the Ebstein files is 0:17:51.160 --> 0:17:55.159 like eighty percent. Like all Americans, they don't necessarily believe 0:17:55.160 --> 0:17:57.440 in God, they don't believe in Santa Claus, they don't 0:17:57.440 --> 0:18:00.600 believe in climate change, but they do believe that they 0:18:00.640 --> 0:18:03.159 want to see those fucking files. And I feel like 0:18:03.240 --> 0:18:05.440 what's important about this story is it's a story about 0:18:05.480 --> 0:18:08.080 the base and not a story about you know, like 0:18:08.200 --> 0:18:12.000 it's one thing for people on CNN to be like, 0:18:12.160 --> 0:18:15.320 this is beyond the pale, but this is Trump. These 0:18:15.320 --> 0:18:17.119 are the people who put Trump in there. This is 0:18:17.160 --> 0:18:20.399 the Marjorie Taylor Greens. So do you think they're stay 0:18:20.680 --> 0:18:23.600 still feeling the same way, because I know, like Charlie 0:18:23.680 --> 0:18:26.400 Kirk and some of Trump's people have been like no, no, 0:18:26.920 --> 0:18:30.000 you know, but do you think there's still that ground 0:18:30.400 --> 0:18:34.640 swell number one and number two? Like what could they 0:18:34.720 --> 0:18:35.800 theoretically even do? 0:18:36.400 --> 0:18:38.200 Yeah, So you have to distinguish between the parts of 0:18:38.240 --> 0:18:40.360 the base that are like the influencers that are kind 0:18:40.359 --> 0:18:43.000 of like pushing Trump's agenda, and then just the ordinary voters. 0:18:43.000 --> 0:18:45.440 I would say the influencer class has largely been bought. 0:18:45.480 --> 0:18:48.560 If you look at like Charlie Kirk, he goes on 0:18:48.560 --> 0:18:51.119 his show and says, I'm done talking about Epstein for now. 0:18:51.160 --> 0:18:52.800 I'm going to quote this is a direct quote. I'm 0:18:52.840 --> 0:18:55.760 going to trust my friends in government. It's like, wait, 0:18:55.800 --> 0:18:59.280 I thought you were a conservative. The hell's frozen over 0:18:59.359 --> 0:19:02.520 that they got to can trust the government? It was yeah. 0:19:02.560 --> 0:19:05.000 And and then just to give you another example, there 0:19:05.000 --> 0:19:07.040 was Denesh Desuza him saying, oh, yeah, we got to 0:19:07.040 --> 0:19:08.879 move on and focus on other things. But if it's 0:19:08.960 --> 0:19:10.479 very interesting, if you look at the base, they're not 0:19:10.560 --> 0:19:12.639 having it, or at least when I looked at it 0:19:12.680 --> 0:19:14.720 this past couple of weeks, they were like, what are 0:19:14.760 --> 0:19:17.000 you talking about? This was one of your promises. And 0:19:17.040 --> 0:19:19.880 you know that the cash Betel talked about it repeatedly. 0:19:20.000 --> 0:19:22.920 And so I'm honestly sort of sympathetic to the base. 0:19:23.000 --> 0:19:24.920 Not that I have the same interpretation of what Epstein 0:19:25.000 --> 0:19:27.360 means that they do, but they're right. They were promised 0:19:27.400 --> 0:19:30.040 something and they haven't been given anything close to it. 0:19:30.040 --> 0:19:33.199 It was like a two page Justice Department review and 0:19:33.280 --> 0:19:35.080 a thousand victims. There's got to be a little bit 0:19:35.080 --> 0:19:38.040 more at least, right, So that's kind of my perspective 0:19:38.440 --> 0:19:40.280 on it. And it's interesting too because it parallels a 0:19:40.359 --> 0:19:45.280 collapse in the public support for the deportation regime. If 0:19:45.280 --> 0:19:46.840 you look at the polling right now, it's gone like 0:19:46.960 --> 0:19:50.320 straight down. So I wonder if Epstein is actually symptomatic 0:19:50.400 --> 0:19:53.840 of a deeper dissatisfaction with the administration. But that's an 0:19:53.840 --> 0:19:55.760 acceptable way to express it because you're not going to 0:19:55.800 --> 0:19:58.520 come out and say, oh, actually immigration, I'm okay, you're 0:19:58.520 --> 0:20:01.840 going You've got to sub media through something else, you 0:20:01.840 --> 0:20:02.320 know what I mean. 0:20:02.520 --> 0:20:06.000 I'm that's just really an interesting No, that's an interesting theory, 0:20:06.040 --> 0:20:08.919 and I hadn't. I mean, they're definitely there's something like 0:20:09.000 --> 0:20:12.080 the bottom has fallen out on Trump's support, So that 0:20:12.240 --> 0:20:14.960 makes a lot of sense that this would be a 0:20:15.080 --> 0:20:17.960 sort of palpable way to express it. I'm going to 0:20:18.040 --> 0:20:20.199 push you for a minute, just because I'm this is 0:20:20.280 --> 0:20:23.320 like my own edification here more than anything. What do 0:20:23.359 --> 0:20:27.560 you think is in there that like I always just 0:20:27.600 --> 0:20:30.879 assumed and we're just get we're just spitballing here. So 0:20:31.000 --> 0:20:33.720 this is not cable news like we can just we're 0:20:33.760 --> 0:20:37.400 just making guesses here. So but like I always assumed 0:20:37.480 --> 0:20:41.200 they went into the files saw there was nothing, maybe 0:20:41.280 --> 0:20:45.879 that Epstein had done some like low level government participation 0:20:46.240 --> 0:20:49.119 with certain stuff, you know, not like a high level 0:20:49.200 --> 0:20:52.400 CIA guy, but just someone who you know, they CIA 0:20:52.560 --> 0:20:55.199 has people who just sort of push on other people 0:20:55.359 --> 0:20:59.040 but aren't really like in it the same way, say 0:20:59.200 --> 0:21:03.359 like whatever is I mean? And that they just were like, 0:21:03.520 --> 0:21:08.720 it's all you know, stuff that implicates some celebrities or 0:21:08.800 --> 0:21:12.920 wealthy people, and also just nothing that makes anyone look good. 0:21:13.600 --> 0:21:15.399 But I mean, do you think there's more than that 0:21:15.520 --> 0:21:15.920 in there? 0:21:16.160 --> 0:21:17.720 I think that there needs to be more nuanced and 0:21:17.760 --> 0:21:20.360 how Epstein is a figure and how the intelligence community 0:21:20.359 --> 0:21:23.320 is characterized, because when people say, oh, was he an asset, 0:21:23.560 --> 0:21:26.920 they don't understand that there's different like levels of relationships 0:21:26.920 --> 0:21:30.119 that exist, right these agencies, Like it takes almost nothing 0:21:30.160 --> 0:21:32.720 to just fill out a confidential human source report and 0:21:32.760 --> 0:21:35.639 say hey, here's what somebody said. That doesn't mean that 0:21:35.680 --> 0:21:38.119 you're like meeting with them and paying them and directing 0:21:38.200 --> 0:21:40.600 them or anything. They processed. Just to give you another example, 0:21:40.600 --> 0:21:42.399 I was just we're gonna sorry about this. The CIA 0:21:42.440 --> 0:21:46.560 has a program called the National Resource Agency, I think 0:21:46.560 --> 0:21:49.320 it's called, and where they just process interviews of Americans 0:21:49.320 --> 0:21:52.680 coming back travelers coming back over abroad from countries of 0:21:52.720 --> 0:21:55.359 interests in CIA. So say you've traveled to I don't know, 0:21:55.480 --> 0:21:58.879 Russia or Ukraine or North career for whatever reason, and 0:21:58.920 --> 0:22:00.760 then they say, oh, what did you see there? What 0:22:00.920 --> 0:22:03.240 was the you know, did you see any weapons here 0:22:03.280 --> 0:22:05.600 in this town or something? And this is a routine 0:22:05.600 --> 0:22:07.920 thing that they probably do thousands and thousands of people 0:22:07.960 --> 0:22:11.280 just intake. And it's like, so that's not an asset relationship. 0:22:11.320 --> 0:22:13.560 You don't fill something out, you're not being tasked with things. 0:22:13.840 --> 0:22:15.639 It's just them asking a couple of things when they 0:22:15.680 --> 0:22:18.440 come back in, and it's like, that's the low level 0:22:18.480 --> 0:22:21.400 of association that I would expect to come out if 0:22:21.400 --> 0:22:24.800 they if just because Epstein knew everybody. And that's another 0:22:24.840 --> 0:22:27.200 part of this thing I think people are not entirely 0:22:27.240 --> 0:22:29.520 honest about, which is that this guy was an almost 0:22:29.600 --> 0:22:33.040 pathological collector of people in relationships and he just loved 0:22:33.040 --> 0:22:35.639 being around important people. That doesn't mean that he was 0:22:35.680 --> 0:22:37.800 like like, we probably all have this friend that's like, 0:22:37.840 --> 0:22:39.800 look at this photo I have of so and so 0:22:39.880 --> 0:22:43.000 famous person, you know what I mean. And it's like, okay, 0:22:43.000 --> 0:22:44.520 I'm sure that you kind of took a picture with 0:22:44.600 --> 0:22:46.160 him for a second and said hi, Like that doesn't 0:22:46.200 --> 0:22:48.600 mean that there's some sustained relationship there. So that to 0:22:48.640 --> 0:22:49.960 me is some of the nuance I'd like to see 0:22:49.960 --> 0:22:51.800 in this is like, Okay, yes he had an they 0:22:51.840 --> 0:22:54.879 say Epstein associate, like you and I and are associate 0:22:55.119 --> 0:22:56.680 right now, because you know what I mean, It's like, 0:22:56.720 --> 0:23:02.960 it doesn't mean that there's some deep financial relation so 0:23:03.200 --> 0:23:03.719 he did. 0:23:03.920 --> 0:23:06.159 Yeah, that's your take too, is that he just was 0:23:06.200 --> 0:23:09.280 sort of knew everybody is in photos. 0:23:10.240 --> 0:23:11.919 Let's be real. The guy was a con man, and 0:23:11.960 --> 0:23:14.119 he went around telling people that he has at these 0:23:14.160 --> 0:23:16.080 connections and it's very much as interest to do so 0:23:16.119 --> 0:23:18.119 because then he can dine out on these names. Is 0:23:18.160 --> 0:23:20.320 that I know Bill Clinton, I know so and so on? 0:23:20.440 --> 0:23:23.399 But who really knows what that means? You can't trust someone, right, 0:23:23.760 --> 0:23:25.040 an inveterate liar. 0:23:25.400 --> 0:23:28.639 Right, so just a con man, like he just was 0:23:28.720 --> 0:23:31.359 good at conning people out of money, right, and also 0:23:31.440 --> 0:23:32.360 blackmailing them. 0:23:32.560 --> 0:23:35.120 I have kind of a nuanced position on this, which 0:23:35.160 --> 0:23:38.199 is that I don't like when the major press just says, oh, 0:23:38.240 --> 0:23:41.240 this whole thing is a conspiracy theory because the attitude 0:23:41.280 --> 0:23:42.679 and the part of the public to look at this 0:23:42.720 --> 0:23:45.040 and see, Okay, there's a lot of influential people here 0:23:45.040 --> 0:23:48.359 and they seem okay with this world of whatever, all 0:23:48.400 --> 0:23:51.199 these young women. That's an appropriate reaction to this. This 0:23:51.280 --> 0:23:52.520 is kind of like a me too thing. 0:23:52.560 --> 0:23:54.439 I think definitely is. 0:23:55.000 --> 0:23:58.800 And so but that's different than he's cavorting with. You know, 0:23:58.800 --> 0:24:00.920 the CI is sending him here to target this guy. 0:24:01.280 --> 0:24:04.800 That's just a high society tolerating grossness thing, and that's 0:24:04.840 --> 0:24:06.520 bad and something should be done about that. And it's 0:24:06.520 --> 0:24:09.359 appropriate that people feel that something should be done about that. 0:24:09.400 --> 0:24:14.160 But it's different, I think, than something more, something more 0:24:14.600 --> 0:24:17.080 conscious or planned out, if that makes sense. 0:24:17.160 --> 0:24:19.880 So that's what I think it is, too, is that, 0:24:20.160 --> 0:24:28.520 like you know, the Weinstein stuff, it's like disgusting sexual malfeasance, rape, 0:24:29.240 --> 0:24:33.439 harassment of children, women who are between the ages of 0:24:33.560 --> 0:24:37.639 fourteen and eighteen, which is insane, but that it's not 0:24:37.800 --> 0:24:42.879 a sort of larger like you know, Seria is doing 0:24:42.880 --> 0:24:44.000 this to get this. 0:24:44.040 --> 0:24:47.280 To get that Donald Trump the president. Now, I don't 0:24:47.280 --> 0:24:50.560 know if anyone knew. Is on record in New York 0:24:50.600 --> 0:24:52.840 Daily News. I think in the two thousand. 0:24:52.920 --> 0:24:57.800 Thin York Magazine two say the joys beautiful women as 0:24:57.880 --> 0:25:00.720 much as I do, some of them are the many 0:25:00.760 --> 0:25:01.600 of them are on the younger. 0:25:01.680 --> 0:25:04.119 Isn't that bad enough? I mean, that's it, That's what 0:25:04.160 --> 0:25:06.080 the conspiracy, That's what the thing is here. That's bad 0:25:06.200 --> 0:25:08.720 enough that these guys look the other way on this stuff. 0:25:09.040 --> 0:25:13.800 I think that the fundamental important element here is that 0:25:14.400 --> 0:25:19.320 that is bad enough, that the fact that he was 0:25:19.760 --> 0:25:24.080 going around with teenage girls is bad enough. And in fact, 0:25:24.880 --> 0:25:28.440 he was on the sex predator there's like a sex 0:25:28.560 --> 0:25:34.000 predator registrary as sex offender registry, and Jeffrey Epstein was 0:25:34.080 --> 0:25:37.200 on it after two thousand and five, you know, and 0:25:37.359 --> 0:25:40.159 it was like his house, like on the map, you 0:25:40.240 --> 0:25:43.760 could see it. And I remember actually looking up and thinking, oh, yeah, 0:25:43.840 --> 0:25:49.000 there's that rich guy who everyone knows is a sex predator. 0:25:49.320 --> 0:25:52.800 But for some reason it has avoided punishment this. 0:25:52.880 --> 0:25:56.119 Whole time, right, And that's where I hesitate to have 0:25:56.240 --> 0:25:59.680 the reaction that some quarters of kind of elite opinion 0:25:59.680 --> 0:26:03.639 have with are just like ew, this UFO style conspiracy stuff. 0:26:03.640 --> 0:26:05.440 It's like, no, there's something there. Even if it's not 0:26:06.200 --> 0:26:07.000 it's the extreme. 0:26:07.680 --> 0:26:10.879 It's also like it's Weinstein, right, It's like, you know, 0:26:11.119 --> 0:26:15.440 these people are doing something bad and you don't exactly 0:26:15.760 --> 0:26:17.920 know what it is, but you know, I mean I 0:26:18.000 --> 0:26:20.240 think it's you know, and you know, and you don't 0:26:20.240 --> 0:26:21.679 go to dinner at their house. 0:26:21.600 --> 0:26:24.639 Because his brand, he was kind of supposed to be 0:26:24.720 --> 0:26:27.280 the playboy ish guy who fucks and his hanging out 0:26:27.400 --> 0:26:29.960 like you can't tell me they didn't have some ink, 0:26:30.160 --> 0:26:33.080 Like come on, you know that's basically my position is, 0:26:33.200 --> 0:26:37.359 come on, like this does not reflect well. I mean, 0:26:37.440 --> 0:26:40.080 Noam Chowsky met with this guy, I think after the conviction, 0:26:40.760 --> 0:26:43.720 and this is somebody that loves yeah and said, you know, 0:26:43.840 --> 0:26:46.360 he did his time, and it's kind of like that's 0:26:46.400 --> 0:26:49.440 something that should be an attitude shift, like yeah, yeah, 0:26:49.960 --> 0:26:51.480 Like I guess they don't necessarily need to be like 0:26:51.520 --> 0:26:53.440 exiled to an island, but there should be some attitude 0:26:53.440 --> 0:26:56.960 of like, Okay, has this person changed at all or 0:26:57.480 --> 0:26:59.200 no one seems to care about that and in the 0:26:59.359 --> 0:27:01.120 kind of highnxiety. 0:27:01.040 --> 0:27:02.760 I mean, we're out of time, but I want to 0:27:02.840 --> 0:27:05.520 quote the great Jesse Cannon, who just said to me, 0:27:05.760 --> 0:27:08.400 producer Jesse, who does not get a lot of respect 0:27:08.920 --> 0:27:11.400 on this podcast because I give him a very hard time, 0:27:11.440 --> 0:27:13.840 but he was the one who said, no one is 0:27:13.920 --> 0:27:17.440 ever canceled. That cancelation is like bullshit that these people 0:27:17.600 --> 0:27:23.639 always are able to whether it. So, if you are 0:27:23.760 --> 0:27:26.960 a sex predator of children, you should be canceled. I 0:27:27.000 --> 0:27:29.680 think we should go out and that should be like 0:27:29.760 --> 0:27:30.520 a bumper sticker. 0:27:30.800 --> 0:27:32.560 And that's what this is all about. If the public 0:27:32.640 --> 0:27:34.960 hadn't had the outcry that it did, he would have 0:27:35.000 --> 0:27:37.480 gotten off with the brief sentence he had and he'd 0:27:37.480 --> 0:27:39.480 be back doing the same thing he was doing. And 0:27:39.560 --> 0:27:42.600 that's why people don't trust the system, because I think, 0:27:42.640 --> 0:27:44.840 we'll look how you handled it last time. I honestly 0:27:45.000 --> 0:27:47.760 empathize with even the most extreme conspiraence miney people because 0:27:47.760 --> 0:27:49.840 I get why they don't trust them anymore. They really 0:27:49.920 --> 0:27:51.680 did blow this the first time around. 0:27:51.560 --> 0:27:55.080 And many many other things too. Ken. I hope you 0:27:55.160 --> 0:28:00.399 will come back. Michael Waldman is the president end of 0:28:00.520 --> 0:28:04.960 the Brennan Center for Justice. Welcome to past violand Michael Waldman. 0:28:05.840 --> 0:28:07.800 It's great to be with you again. Mollie. 0:28:07.960 --> 0:28:11.080 So you've head the Brandan Center for Justice, which is 0:28:11.640 --> 0:28:16.080 extremely important legal resource you provide towards You provide all 0:28:16.280 --> 0:28:22.119 of the work the NEAT for many of the nonprofits 0:28:22.600 --> 0:28:27.360 that protect our democracy. You guys have a truly harrowing 0:28:27.920 --> 0:28:34.320 report about the midterms and the Trump administration's plan for them. 0:28:34.720 --> 0:28:37.560 Can you talk us through it? And first, I would 0:28:37.600 --> 0:28:40.240 love you to talk just like before you even start 0:28:40.280 --> 0:28:43.280 talking us through it, just explain to us a little bit, 0:28:43.720 --> 0:28:47.200 just like a quick refresher on what Brennan does and 0:28:47.480 --> 0:28:49.000 where you are in this process. 0:28:49.640 --> 0:28:49.880 Sure. 0:28:50.120 --> 0:28:53.240 So we are a non partisan law and policy institute. 0:28:53.320 --> 0:28:58.080 We work to strengthen, to reform and when necessary, to 0:28:58.160 --> 0:29:00.960 defend the systems of democracy and justice in this country. 0:29:01.040 --> 0:29:04.160 So they worked for everybody, and so as you can imagine, 0:29:04.200 --> 0:29:07.800 this is an intense time given how much assault there 0:29:07.960 --> 0:29:11.240 is on our democracy and a lot of the details, 0:29:11.280 --> 0:29:13.920 a lot of the arcane stuff turns out to matter 0:29:14.040 --> 0:29:16.400 a lot. And so we're part of mostly a thank tank, 0:29:16.480 --> 0:29:21.160 also an advocacy group and a communications hub, and we're busy, 0:29:22.400 --> 0:29:26.640 and you know, it really feels in a lot of ways, 0:29:27.200 --> 0:29:30.040 like in the last week or two that the twenty 0:29:30.120 --> 0:29:33.240 twenty six midterms have kind of swung into view as 0:29:33.920 --> 0:29:37.800 the looming next year of political activity in this country. 0:29:37.880 --> 0:29:41.200 And the key thing is voters in our democracy have 0:29:41.320 --> 0:29:43.360 to have the final say, and they have to have 0:29:43.440 --> 0:29:46.040 the final say in twenty twenty six. And in the 0:29:46.120 --> 0:29:48.520 last several elections, there were a lot of pressures on 0:29:48.600 --> 0:29:52.760 the election system, from COVID to violence, but the system held. 0:29:53.200 --> 0:29:56.760 Election officials from both parties worked well together and the 0:29:56.800 --> 0:30:00.960 elections were accurate and safe and secure. But now, as 0:30:01.160 --> 0:30:05.320 our new analysis shows, there's a new factor that we've 0:30:05.400 --> 0:30:09.840 not had before, which is the federal government itself as 0:30:09.920 --> 0:30:14.720 a threat to the elections, a concerted campaign by the 0:30:14.760 --> 0:30:19.240 Trump administration to undermine the twenty twenty six elections. And 0:30:19.400 --> 0:30:22.680 some of this stuff is well known, more or less. 0:30:22.720 --> 0:30:25.280 Some of it is kind of under the radar, but 0:30:25.440 --> 0:30:28.960 it clearly is adding up to a concerted campaign. And 0:30:29.080 --> 0:30:31.640 in this new analysis that we published this week, we 0:30:31.720 --> 0:30:32.560 connect the dots. 0:30:32.960 --> 0:30:35.680 So the first thing is very well known, which is 0:30:35.840 --> 0:30:40.440 that Trump is trying to re gerrymander states in time 0:30:40.560 --> 0:30:44.160 for the midterms, and that he's even said, for example, 0:30:44.240 --> 0:30:47.720 he said in Texas that he was entitled to five 0:30:47.840 --> 0:30:50.600 more seats, So talk us through that because I feel 0:30:50.600 --> 0:30:52.160 like that's the first part of the story. 0:30:52.840 --> 0:30:55.920 Yeah, it is. And interestingly that came up so recently 0:30:55.960 --> 0:30:58.320 and so abruptly. It's not in this report, but there's 0:30:58.360 --> 0:31:01.840 no question that this is. There's a lot going on 0:31:02.040 --> 0:31:05.440 and that's visible now. Our report, as great as it is, 0:31:05.480 --> 0:31:09.920 doesn't have people, you know, hiding them in by the interstate. 0:31:10.120 --> 0:31:13.280 That thing of leaving Austin to avoid a quorum on 0:31:13.680 --> 0:31:16.120 jerrymandering is this is not actually the first time that's 0:31:16.120 --> 0:31:17.800 happened in Texas. This is kind of a bit of 0:31:17.880 --> 0:31:22.440 a tradition. We want Congress to be representative. Jerrymandering has 0:31:22.560 --> 0:31:25.320 been bad throughout American history. It's a bad thing for 0:31:25.760 --> 0:31:28.520 politicians to choose the voters rather than the other way around. 0:31:28.840 --> 0:31:32.760 What is happening in Texas is particularly egregious. It is 0:31:32.960 --> 0:31:36.080 just being explicitly done to squeeze five seats out for 0:31:36.200 --> 0:31:39.480 the Republicans. It's at the expense of, very often of 0:31:39.600 --> 0:31:42.480 voters of color. It's being done under the orders of 0:31:42.800 --> 0:31:45.000 someone who doesn't live in Texas, Donald Trump, and it's 0:31:45.040 --> 0:31:47.760 in the middle of the decade. Remember the census happens 0:31:47.800 --> 0:31:49.920 every ten years. And that's when you're supposed to draw 0:31:49.960 --> 0:31:53.040 the district lines. So it's a big fight that the 0:31:53.160 --> 0:31:56.120 Democrats have left the state to avoid a quorum. The 0:31:56.240 --> 0:31:59.120 Republican leadership of the state is trying to have them arrested. 0:31:59.160 --> 0:32:01.080 I don't think that's going to work. It's not a 0:32:01.240 --> 0:32:06.280 surprise that the Democrats in blue states are readying a 0:32:06.400 --> 0:32:10.240 response or are responding accordingly, and I don't think we 0:32:10.280 --> 0:32:12.280 should be surprised by that. I don't think it's a 0:32:12.320 --> 0:32:14.719 good thing ultimately for the country to have this kind 0:32:14.760 --> 0:32:17.480 of arms race. So the final answer, I think it's 0:32:17.520 --> 0:32:20.360 really important that we never lose sight of the following. 0:32:21.000 --> 0:32:25.200 The answer has to be ultimately national standards that apply 0:32:25.280 --> 0:32:28.480 to red states and blue states alike. And you know, 0:32:28.600 --> 0:32:31.840 the Supreme Court was going to do this and then 0:32:32.360 --> 0:32:35.320 backed out and said that federal courts cannot police parties 0:32:35.360 --> 0:32:38.400 and jerrymandering, but Congress could do it. The Freedom to 0:32:38.520 --> 0:32:44.480 Vote Act, which you've heard me rant about, came really 0:32:44.600 --> 0:32:48.720 close to passage two years ago. It would ban jerry 0:32:48.800 --> 0:32:52.040 mandering nationwide in red states and in blue states and 0:32:52.560 --> 0:32:55.560 bar mid decade redistricting. In other words, if it had 0:32:55.600 --> 0:32:58.840 become law, this would not be happening. And it's really 0:32:58.880 --> 0:33:02.280 critical that politicians who talk about democracy, who like to 0:33:02.320 --> 0:33:06.400 give speeches about democracy being under threat, that when they 0:33:06.520 --> 0:33:09.600 get their hands on the levers of power, do something 0:33:09.760 --> 0:33:13.920 about protecting democracy. Unrigged the system just as enthusiastically and 0:33:14.080 --> 0:33:17.440 energetically as some other politicians are rigging the system. So 0:33:18.480 --> 0:33:20.200 that's that piece of it, and you know you're going 0:33:20.240 --> 0:33:22.040 to see this play out in a bunch of states. 0:33:22.080 --> 0:33:25.520 California is considering putting a new map on the ballot 0:33:25.680 --> 0:33:30.120 in November because the Redistrict and Commission was created not 0:33:30.280 --> 0:33:34.720 by Democrats but actually by voters and by Governor Schwarzenegger 0:33:34.920 --> 0:33:37.880 backing it. He's a Republican. And in other states like 0:33:38.080 --> 0:33:42.280 Illinois and New York and Maryland, again the Democrats are 0:33:42.320 --> 0:33:46.800 looking to effect, you know, fight fire with fire. But 0:33:47.480 --> 0:33:50.720 ultimately the answer is national standards, I think. But that's 0:33:50.760 --> 0:33:54.040 only part of the story. Rights about voting and how 0:33:54.360 --> 0:33:56.960 and the threats to the voting system with a little 0:33:57.040 --> 0:33:59.920 less drama are really important and unnerving. 0:34:00.320 --> 0:34:03.040 So that is what I wanted to talk about next. 0:34:03.160 --> 0:34:06.040 So in this report, you have a bunch of different 0:34:06.640 --> 0:34:10.040 issues that the federal government is trying to mess with 0:34:10.160 --> 0:34:12.719 elections with and I would love you to talk about 0:34:12.760 --> 0:34:16.400 this attempting to rewrite election rules and interfere with election 0:34:16.560 --> 0:34:20.840 administration by executive order, because executive orders they don't have 0:34:20.960 --> 0:34:24.000 a ton of legal weight. It's more like just you know, 0:34:24.120 --> 0:34:27.279 they're not it's not real, but it's real if the 0:34:27.360 --> 0:34:29.320 Supreme Court will allow it to stand. 0:34:29.760 --> 0:34:32.880 So very often we're like a malevolent press release. 0:34:33.360 --> 0:34:37.320 Exactly, malevolent press release. I'm writing that down. That's very sark. 0:34:37.560 --> 0:34:40.320 So the key thing to start is to remember that 0:34:40.520 --> 0:34:44.200 under the law and under the constitution, states run elections, 0:34:44.320 --> 0:34:48.520 and the Congress can pass laws setting national standards, but 0:34:48.680 --> 0:34:51.680 the executive branch and especially the president, has almost no 0:34:51.960 --> 0:34:56.560 role in these elections under normal circumstances. So it's just 0:34:56.800 --> 0:35:01.360 Trump's impersonal attempts to seize control over the election system 0:35:01.480 --> 0:35:04.600 at all is its own form of an egregious breach. 0:35:05.880 --> 0:35:07.680 Among the things that are part of this kind of 0:35:07.920 --> 0:35:11.600 concerted strategy is an executive order. As you said, that 0:35:12.239 --> 0:35:14.480 was one of gazillions, and so it was easy to 0:35:14.560 --> 0:35:18.160 lose sight on that required would require, if it were 0:35:18.239 --> 0:35:21.800 to go into effect, you to show a passport to 0:35:21.960 --> 0:35:26.120 register to vote in the United States under the federal form, 0:35:28.160 --> 0:35:31.080 which you know half of all Americans don't have a passport. 0:35:31.160 --> 0:35:34.120 It wouldn't even allow a birth certificate, as problematic as 0:35:34.160 --> 0:35:37.400 that is. You need to have a passport or something 0:35:37.520 --> 0:35:40.960 like that. What the Trump White House has done as 0:35:41.000 --> 0:35:47.440 well is purge the election security officials and agencies that 0:35:47.600 --> 0:35:50.160 have been doing a good job of helping states protect 0:35:50.200 --> 0:35:55.680 their elections. It is requiring trying to require states to 0:35:56.160 --> 0:36:00.839 turnover voter data to DOGE because you know what, could 0:36:01.719 --> 0:36:04.680 ye find the fraud just like they found all those 0:36:05.200 --> 0:36:09.760 non existent frauds whatever security And according to the Associated Press, 0:36:09.880 --> 0:36:13.400 in the last few days, nineteen states already have gotten 0:36:13.719 --> 0:36:17.160 demands or requests from the Justice Department for their voter records. 0:36:17.520 --> 0:36:20.720 So this is happening. The whole of the federal government 0:36:20.800 --> 0:36:23.520 is being sort of weaponized in this way. And of course, 0:36:23.600 --> 0:36:27.520 as you know, Trump himself went to the Justice Department, 0:36:27.719 --> 0:36:32.839 spoke to the cheering attorneys who he had appointed there 0:36:33.320 --> 0:36:36.919 and said, I want you to prosecute election officials. Yeah, 0:36:37.040 --> 0:36:42.320 and it's a whole gearing up of the prosecution mechanisms 0:36:42.360 --> 0:36:44.680 to threaten these election officials. And when you think about 0:36:45.280 --> 0:36:47.520 what happened in twenty twenty. You know, it was a 0:36:47.680 --> 0:36:52.320 handful of Republican very often officials at different levels of 0:36:52.360 --> 0:36:55.560 government who, whatever they might have done wrong or right, 0:36:55.719 --> 0:36:59.880 other realms of their work stood up. Whether it was 0:37:00.000 --> 0:37:03.600 Brad Raffensberger, the Secretary of State of Georgia, who you 0:37:03.680 --> 0:37:08.120 know wouldn't quote find eleven thousand votes, or Attorney General 0:37:08.239 --> 0:37:12.640 bar who told Trump that this is that it was 0:37:12.719 --> 0:37:17.200 a Barnard epithet, that his claims that were bs. So 0:37:17.520 --> 0:37:21.040 you know, now the administration is stocked with election deniers. 0:37:21.080 --> 0:37:23.680 So all of this adds up to something new. We 0:37:23.840 --> 0:37:26.200 haven't had this before in this country. To have the 0:37:26.280 --> 0:37:29.560 old federal government weigh in put some on the scale 0:37:29.640 --> 0:37:30.200 in this way. 0:37:30.600 --> 0:37:32.960 So you have the executive orders, and then you have 0:37:33.600 --> 0:37:37.239 what's happened in I think it's already happened in Wyoming, 0:37:37.560 --> 0:37:42.320 right where some red states are mandating proof of whatever. 0:37:43.000 --> 0:37:45.640 Well, you know, some states are trying to have done 0:37:45.680 --> 0:37:49.319 it and actually backed off doing it because it turned 0:37:49.320 --> 0:37:53.400 out it disenfranchised so many eligible voters, including. 0:37:53.160 --> 0:37:56.560 Yeah, Trump voters too, because Trump has us low frequency. 0:37:56.600 --> 0:37:59.279 There's a reason why states don't do this, and yeah, 0:37:59.320 --> 0:38:01.160 now you know, so there's a lot of this goes 0:38:01.200 --> 0:38:05.040 back to this conspiracy theory that there's lots of non 0:38:05.160 --> 0:38:07.920 citizens who are voting, and it's just not it's not true. 0:38:08.160 --> 0:38:12.239 And states have very robust systems in place to make 0:38:12.320 --> 0:38:15.200 sure that only citizens are voting, only citizens should vote. 0:38:15.239 --> 0:38:17.920 But that good news is only citizens basically do. 0:38:18.360 --> 0:38:21.400 Vote, and there's very little evidence of non citizens voting. 0:38:21.880 --> 0:38:24.879 Yeah, and you know people, I you know as you can. 0:38:25.280 --> 0:38:29.279 We have found when we make these arguments to people 0:38:29.360 --> 0:38:32.000 publicly that it's less effective to point out that it 0:38:32.160 --> 0:38:35.600 doesn't happen or that it's illegal already many times over 0:38:35.960 --> 0:38:39.600 could but but but more that the states take this 0:38:39.719 --> 0:38:43.040 really seriously and have a lot of safeguards in place 0:38:45.239 --> 0:38:47.080 to prevent cheating of that kind. 0:38:47.640 --> 0:38:51.880 So executive orders, and then one of the scarier ones 0:38:52.200 --> 0:38:56.040 is messing with the machine, the election of quote. So 0:38:56.200 --> 0:38:56.880 talk us through that. 0:38:57.680 --> 0:39:00.719 So if you remember, one of the key things Trump 0:39:00.840 --> 0:39:03.719 tried to do in twenty twenty was to seize the 0:39:03.840 --> 0:39:05.960 voting machines. I don't know what that would have told him, 0:39:06.560 --> 0:39:09.759 but the executive order that they did earlier in the 0:39:09.880 --> 0:39:14.480 year would basically decertify take away the approval for the 0:39:14.640 --> 0:39:17.120 use of the voting machines that are used all over 0:39:17.200 --> 0:39:23.520 the country. One of the notions that sometimes Trump and 0:39:23.600 --> 0:39:25.920 his people have is that all ballots should be counted 0:39:25.960 --> 0:39:30.360 by hand. And that's a really bad idea because you 0:39:30.480 --> 0:39:32.879 actually get more errors that way, and it also would 0:39:32.920 --> 0:39:36.200 delay the counting and the reason we as a society 0:39:36.280 --> 0:39:42.480 have moved past counting our fingers. But a lot of 0:39:42.520 --> 0:39:44.920 these things, as you say, are in this executive were. 0:39:45.440 --> 0:39:48.320 One of the things that's happened, broadly speaking, is the 0:39:48.440 --> 0:39:51.040 courts have stepped up on a lot of these things. 0:39:51.880 --> 0:39:54.960 In particular, this is something the Brennan Center did. We 0:39:55.200 --> 0:39:59.000 represented the League of Women Voters in a lawsuit on 0:39:59.200 --> 0:40:03.279 this executive work, and a federal court actually blocked some 0:40:03.400 --> 0:40:06.239 of the worst parts of it, the parts that where 0:40:06.280 --> 0:40:09.960 Trump is pretending to order an independent agency that he 0:40:10.040 --> 0:40:13.359 has no authority over to do these things. But it's 0:40:13.400 --> 0:40:15.960 still playing out in the courts and the story isn't 0:40:16.000 --> 0:40:16.560 finished yet. 0:40:16.920 --> 0:40:21.160 So you have the seizing machines, which is really scary, 0:40:21.400 --> 0:40:25.239 and then you have another thing, which I also thought 0:40:25.360 --> 0:40:30.239 was horrifying, accessing sensitive voter file data. Explain to us 0:40:30.320 --> 0:40:31.440 what this story there is. 0:40:32.600 --> 0:40:36.800 Well, the states keep these voter records. There's lots of 0:40:36.920 --> 0:40:41.479 sensitive stuff in it, often social security numbers, other things 0:40:41.640 --> 0:40:45.360 like that. The federal government has no place demanding that 0:40:45.560 --> 0:40:48.000 data just to look at it. What it seems to 0:40:48.080 --> 0:40:51.080 be the case is that this will be used to say, Aha, 0:40:51.200 --> 0:40:54.080 look at all the fraud and to try to undermine 0:40:54.560 --> 0:40:58.680 the elections in advance. A lot of this violence, privacy rules, 0:40:58.680 --> 0:41:01.359 a lot of it is illegal. Some of it, as 0:41:01.440 --> 0:41:04.439 I said, came in this demand that the states turn 0:41:04.520 --> 0:41:08.600 over these records to DOGE or they will lose federal money. 0:41:09.760 --> 0:41:13.920 Now you're starting to see the Justice Department make these demands, 0:41:14.400 --> 0:41:18.360 and there are now task forces set up in the 0:41:18.760 --> 0:41:22.120 Justice Department, in the US Attorney's Office in Washington, DC 0:41:22.600 --> 0:41:25.920 and other places that are very explicitly rattling the cage 0:41:26.280 --> 0:41:30.080 to threaten election officials, to threaten prosecutions of election officials 0:41:30.760 --> 0:41:33.760 who do their job. And there's a guy named Chris Krebs. 0:41:33.920 --> 0:41:35.680 I don't know if you have heard it, but he 0:41:35.920 --> 0:41:41.960 was just the head of cybersecurity in the Trump Department 0:41:41.960 --> 0:41:44.959 of pum Land Security in twenty twenty, and he said 0:41:45.160 --> 0:41:49.000 accurately that the twenty twenty election was secure and the 0:41:49.080 --> 0:41:52.680 most secure in history. And Trump fired him at the time, 0:41:52.760 --> 0:41:56.319 and now he's having him investigated. And the goal here 0:41:56.440 --> 0:41:59.560 is to rattle and shake the confidence and shake the 0:41:59.680 --> 0:42:03.840 courage of state and local officials so that when it 0:42:03.880 --> 0:42:06.400 should be necessary, when the moment comes and they need 0:42:06.520 --> 0:42:09.000 to show their backbone, they'll be afraid to do it. 0:42:09.520 --> 0:42:12.160 So far, the state and local officials have been great. 0:42:12.719 --> 0:42:16.799 They know their job. You know, none of them signed 0:42:16.880 --> 0:42:20.480 up for being high stakes combatants and politics. They're not 0:42:20.600 --> 0:42:23.120 the big glamour jobs. A lot of the stuff that 0:42:23.160 --> 0:42:26.080 they're being asked to do is illegal. We and others 0:42:26.280 --> 0:42:28.560 are talking to lots of lawyers to make sure people 0:42:28.640 --> 0:42:30.920 know what their legal remedies are and that sort of thing. 0:42:31.239 --> 0:42:34.319 Yeah, that's really scary to me that it's largely an 0:42:34.360 --> 0:42:36.799 intimidation campaign, right, Yes, I. 0:42:36.840 --> 0:42:40.400 Think it's an intimidation campaign that will grow in intensity 0:42:40.480 --> 0:42:43.640 over the months. And the question again is, well, why's 0:42:43.719 --> 0:42:46.080 the what's the endgame? Why do this? 0:42:46.520 --> 0:42:46.719 You know? 0:42:46.920 --> 0:42:50.640 And I do think that undermining public confidence in the results, 0:42:51.080 --> 0:42:55.000 making people think wrongly that there's lots of fraud, endlessly 0:42:55.120 --> 0:42:57.759 discovering Aha, now we found the smoking gun of the 0:42:58.200 --> 0:43:00.840 of the of the phantom vote, and this and that 0:43:00.960 --> 0:43:06.760 kind of stuff, to create a fog of misinformation about 0:43:06.760 --> 0:43:09.600 the elections in advance seems to be one of the goals. 0:43:10.040 --> 0:43:12.800 So what can people do If you're listening to this 0:43:12.920 --> 0:43:16.600 and you're freaking out, or you read it last weekend 0:43:16.840 --> 0:43:19.640 and with your husband and both freaked out about it. 0:43:19.840 --> 0:43:20.719 What can people do? 0:43:21.239 --> 0:43:24.480 So, first of all, back up those state and local officials. 0:43:24.600 --> 0:43:26.640 Let them know that you understand what they're going through. 0:43:26.800 --> 0:43:28.799 They need to stand strong, they need to do their part. 0:43:28.880 --> 0:43:31.240 They need support from all across the political spectrum. 0:43:31.320 --> 0:43:31.880 You know, as the. 0:43:31.920 --> 0:43:35.280 Elections draw closer, there are all kinds of things people 0:43:35.320 --> 0:43:39.080 can do, working with law enforcement and others, poll watching 0:43:39.200 --> 0:43:40.960 and those things. Though it's a little early for that. 0:43:41.280 --> 0:43:44.000 It's really important that courts do their part as well. 0:43:44.239 --> 0:43:46.360 And like I said, a lot of them have, but 0:43:46.680 --> 0:43:48.560 we haven't heard from the Supreme Court on a lot 0:43:48.560 --> 0:43:52.480 of this stuff. So much of this effort is illegal, 0:43:52.840 --> 0:43:56.680 and courts need to continue to rule when that comes 0:43:56.800 --> 0:44:00.520 before them on that. And ultimately, I think that it 0:44:00.680 --> 0:44:03.120 is a lot harder to rig an election. There's a 0:44:03.200 --> 0:44:05.880 lot harder to stealing election when lots of people are 0:44:05.960 --> 0:44:08.520 voting and lots of people are yelling and lots of 0:44:08.560 --> 0:44:12.759 people are watching. And the more focus on this there is, 0:44:13.040 --> 0:44:15.480 the better it is because I think one of the 0:44:15.560 --> 0:44:17.560 things that I hope comes out of this period of 0:44:17.719 --> 0:44:21.759 democratic destruction is a renewed commitment to fixing our democracy 0:44:21.800 --> 0:44:24.439 and making sure that this kind of thing can happen again. 0:44:24.719 --> 0:44:27.960 I worry that, like as you may have followed, you know, 0:44:28.120 --> 0:44:33.240 there's a lot of chatter, oh, you know, what issues 0:44:34.000 --> 0:44:34.399 are there? 0:44:35.360 --> 0:44:35.560 Gee? 0:44:35.960 --> 0:44:38.480 You know Biden talked about democracy that means it's a. 0:44:38.560 --> 0:44:43.759 Dud, right, And I think that what we're seeing with 0:44:43.840 --> 0:44:47.759 the Texas gerrymander shows that no, these issues are really 0:44:47.840 --> 0:44:50.960 vital and that it's we need some courage from some 0:44:51.040 --> 0:44:54.040 politicians to actually take action when they have the chance 0:44:54.560 --> 0:44:57.920 to strengthen democracy and not just issue cresh releases. 0:44:58.360 --> 0:45:00.879 Right, And I'm in that is like gonna come later. 0:45:01.160 --> 0:45:04.160 Right now, Probably the only thing anyone can do is 0:45:04.239 --> 0:45:07.800 try to protect our midterms so that they are so 0:45:07.920 --> 0:45:10.120 that people have the freedom to go and vote, and 0:45:10.320 --> 0:45:12.440 so that the votes are you know, that no one 0:45:12.560 --> 0:45:14.640 messes with anything. One of the things they spend a 0:45:14.680 --> 0:45:16.880 lot of time thinking about is if we do have 0:45:17.480 --> 0:45:21.040 if there are free and fair elections and Democrats are 0:45:21.080 --> 0:45:25.000 able to regain the levers of power, there has to 0:45:25.080 --> 0:45:29.400 be an anti corruption legislation. Like Democrats have spent a 0:45:29.480 --> 0:45:32.680 lot of time not legislating for any number of reasons. 0:45:32.840 --> 0:45:37.200 Sometimes it's a Kirsten Cinema that derails them. Sometimes it's 0:45:37.320 --> 0:45:42.720 their own anxiety about seeming you know, seeming overly partisan 0:45:42.840 --> 0:45:43.280 or whatever. 0:45:43.719 --> 0:45:47.919 Yeah, So to give credit to Nancy Pelosi and people 0:45:48.040 --> 0:45:51.920 like that, you know, they really push the Freedom to 0:45:52.000 --> 0:45:55.120 Vote Act and the John R. Lewis Voting Rights Advancement Act, 0:45:55.160 --> 0:45:58.279 which were really important bills that would have addressed dark 0:45:58.360 --> 0:46:00.560 money in politics, that would have addressed theair remagering that 0:46:00.600 --> 0:46:04.160 we've strengthened early voting and automatic voter registration, a lot 0:46:04.200 --> 0:46:07.319 of the other things, restored the Voting Rights Act. Those 0:46:07.400 --> 0:46:11.279 bills had pass the House, they had a majority in 0:46:11.360 --> 0:46:14.480 the Senate, and the problem then was that two Senators 0:46:14.800 --> 0:46:19.000 mansioned in cinema who supported supposedly the bills wouldn't change 0:46:19.000 --> 0:46:23.279 the philibuster rules to enable them to overcome the Republican blockade. 0:46:23.800 --> 0:46:26.360 I think it's the case now that Democrats part of 0:46:26.440 --> 0:46:29.400 the lesson they drew from that whole period was they 0:46:29.480 --> 0:46:32.440 were going to change the filibuster rules to enable it 0:46:32.520 --> 0:46:36.680 to pass it. You know, last year when visions danced 0:46:36.719 --> 0:46:39.839 in some of their heads about a trifecta, they made 0:46:39.920 --> 0:46:42.400 clear they were going to pass that bill, those bills 0:46:42.560 --> 0:46:46.120 with a majority vote. I think that right now there's 0:46:46.160 --> 0:46:49.560 a lot of looking at what the most important reforms 0:46:49.600 --> 0:46:53.040 are today because of the extraordinary corruption and the breaches 0:46:53.080 --> 0:46:55.799 of law and norms that we see from this administration. 0:46:55.960 --> 0:46:58.520 And so what are the corruption measures to deal with 0:46:58.640 --> 0:47:01.640 an era of Elon m and Donald Trump and the 0:47:02.080 --> 0:47:05.560 monetization of government. How can we address the Supreme Court 0:47:06.120 --> 0:47:08.200 and the role it plays. I think there's a lot 0:47:08.239 --> 0:47:11.360 of enthusiasm for something like term limits as part of 0:47:11.480 --> 0:47:15.160 any reform package. I think that it makes partisans of 0:47:15.200 --> 0:47:18.279 all parties uncomfortable. But I think there ultimately needs to 0:47:18.320 --> 0:47:21.520 be something on redistricting as there was, and voting of 0:47:21.640 --> 0:47:23.440 course as well. So there's a lot of issues in 0:47:23.520 --> 0:47:27.160 play and formulating what that package looks like. What counts 0:47:27.200 --> 0:47:29.680 as not just what one is against, but what one 0:47:29.840 --> 0:47:32.720 is for. And if you don't have a really robust 0:47:33.000 --> 0:47:36.160 vision for how to strengthen democracy, people are going to 0:47:36.200 --> 0:47:40.800 think it's just partisan wind. The main problem, honestly in 0:47:41.080 --> 0:47:44.480 twenty twenty one and twenty twenty two was they waited. 0:47:45.320 --> 0:47:48.680 The White House under President Biden waited a long time 0:47:49.040 --> 0:47:50.920 to try to move that bill. And that's the kind 0:47:50.920 --> 0:47:53.160 of thing one needs to do right at the start, 0:47:53.520 --> 0:47:57.320 and not worry about twelve editorial boards if those exist anymore, 0:47:57.680 --> 0:47:59.880 saying oh whoo, this is partisan. 0:48:00.280 --> 0:48:03.800 Michael Wallman, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you 0:48:03.920 --> 0:48:05.880 for for than keep. 0:48:05.920 --> 0:48:07.320 Us sane and educated. 0:48:09.320 --> 0:48:14.000 They're normal fu Jesse Cannon, Molly. 0:48:14.800 --> 0:48:17.200 So I'm going to tell you a really tragic story. 0:48:17.560 --> 0:48:21.040 Please, big balls driving through the d C in a 0:48:21.200 --> 0:48:24.239 very heavily policed area, he was attacked by a group 0:48:24.280 --> 0:48:28.480 of teenagers in a carjacking. Police came literally as it 0:48:28.600 --> 0:48:31.759 was happening. And now Trump says, you know, we got 0:48:31.840 --> 0:48:35.040 to basically declare Marshall in DC. Is probably the next 0:48:35.040 --> 0:48:37.200 step of whatever many people are assuming. But they're going 0:48:37.280 --> 0:48:41.560 to order federal law enforcement officers to patrol the DC streets. 0:48:41.920 --> 0:48:44.840 We saw this happen in California. We've seen this happen 0:48:45.400 --> 0:48:50.839 when Governor Hocal sent National Guard into our subways. It's 0:48:50.920 --> 0:48:53.640 just a waste of everybody's time, right he's going to 0:48:53.719 --> 0:48:56.120 federalize it. He's going to send all these people. They're 0:48:56.160 --> 0:48:58.080 going to sit on the street and stare at their 0:48:58.160 --> 0:49:02.160 phone and have nothing to you. And no one will 0:49:02.239 --> 0:49:05.320 be better off for it, and it will be like 0:49:05.520 --> 0:49:10.000 Trump's big power grab, but it won't do anything, and 0:49:10.760 --> 0:49:15.840 it's just incredibly wasteful and stupid and makes no sense. 0:49:16.200 --> 0:49:17.160 And he'll do it. 0:49:17.600 --> 0:49:20.560 You say, no one will be better off for it. 0:49:20.680 --> 0:49:22.640 But candy Crush is going to make a lot of money. 0:49:22.960 --> 0:49:28.760 Candy Crush, Instagram. Those are the things that will benefit 0:49:29.160 --> 0:49:34.040 tech companies, will TikTok, because you know TikTok, the Chinese 0:49:34.080 --> 0:49:34.840 government will. 0:49:34.719 --> 0:49:35.319 Make some money. 0:49:35.640 --> 0:49:37.399 Oracle Larry Awesome. 0:49:37.360 --> 0:49:41.239 Merry Christmas to all whose help. That's it for this 0:49:41.520 --> 0:49:47.840 episode of Fast Politics. Tune in every Monday, Wednesday, Thursday 0:49:48.080 --> 0:49:52.680 and Saturday to hear the best minds and politics make sense. 0:49:52.480 --> 0:49:54.120 Of all this chaos. 0:49:54.600 --> 0:49:57.400 If you enjoy this podcast, please send it to a 0:49:57.520 --> 0:50:01.480 friend and keep the conversation going. Thanks for listening.