Speaker 1: I feel like girl boss mentality takes place in this
Speaker 1: void where systemic issues don't really exist, or they do exist,
Speaker 1: but they can be surmounted by one person. There are
Speaker 1: no girls on the Internet. As a production of I
Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this
Speaker 1: is there are no girls on the Internet. No podcast
Speaker 1: about women and technology could be complete without talking about
Speaker 1: the era of the girl boss. In the odds around,
Speaker 1: women were leaning in girl Boston and hashtag hustling in
Speaker 1: traditionally male dominated spaces like technology and entrepreneurship. So when
Speaker 1: I hear the word girl boss, I think of women
Speaker 1: like Cheryl Sandberg formerly of Facebook, Sophia Amarossa, who basically
Speaker 1: wrote the book on girl Boss memoir and the Netflix
Speaker 1: show based on her life was literally called girl Boss,
Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Holmes, who may have girl bossed a little
Speaker 1: bit too close to the sun when her blood testing company,
Speaker 1: Sara Knows was revealed to be a scam. And I
Speaker 1: will admit I had a bit of a girl boss
Speaker 1: era where I thought feminism was connected to me individually,
Speaker 1: kicking as professionally and making a lot of money. Now,
Speaker 1: to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with women
Speaker 1: having ambition in their careers or holding power. That is
Speaker 1: all great, but the girl boss era really sold us
Speaker 1: ambition as liberation. It sold us on the idea that
Speaker 1: you could lean in and overperform your way out of
Speaker 1: institutional systems like racism, patriarchy, sexism, and capitalism and more
Speaker 1: and more. I think we're seeing the flaws in that
Speaker 1: mindset in her one woman show, Girl Whom His Boss?
Speaker 1: Comedian and podcaster Jamie Law this takes on the girl boss.
Speaker 1: Her Cheryl Sandberg style girl boss archetype is named Shell
Speaker 1: Gasolene Sandwich, and she's a toxic corporate feminist who's teaching
Speaker 1: all fellow girl bosses how to use technology to steal
Speaker 1: data for fun profit and hashtag feminism. It's part skiering,
Speaker 1: parts end up, and a hundred percent hilarious. So I
Speaker 1: just finished watching Girl Whom His Boss. It is hysterical,
Speaker 1: and I want to start with a question, be honest,
Speaker 1: Before you did Girl Whom His Boss? Did you go
Speaker 1: through a girl boss phase? Um? Probably, I think it's
Speaker 1: like I've it's hard. It's it's a kind of struggle
Speaker 1: with the term, especially because I've like messed with it.
Speaker 1: So heavily. I mean, I don't know. I think you
Speaker 1: can describe a lot of um trying to make space
Speaker 1: for yourself where it doesn't exist as girl boss behavior,
Speaker 1: and then if you're a little disingenuous about it, that
Speaker 1: really turns up the girl boss factor. I'm sure I've
Speaker 1: had girl boss moments over the years, not like um
Speaker 1: ones that are that almost kill people, but I'm sure
Speaker 1: that there's I've I I feel like, you know, we've
Speaker 1: all had our girl boss moments and then you reflect
Speaker 1: on them and you're just like, hopefully they weren't you know,
Speaker 1: publicly documented or anything. I don't know, I don't know,
Speaker 1: that's a good question, have you Oh my god. I mean,
Speaker 1: I wasn't starting any genocides in meanma or anything, but
Speaker 1: I was definitely had a phase where I was kind
Speaker 1: of I don't know, but like I read Sophia Amarosso's
Speaker 1: book Girl Boss when it first came out, and right,
Speaker 1: I definitely had this idea that it was it was.
Speaker 1: I had absorbed this message that it was important to
Speaker 1: be a specific kind of working woman, like a you know,
Speaker 1: woman who wore blazers, and like, you know, like I
Speaker 1: had this idea that you had to be a certain
Speaker 1: kind of woman to be successful professionally, and that how
Speaker 1: I was just normally was not that. And then I
Speaker 1: needed to like I don't know if I'm call it
Speaker 1: a girl boss era, but I was definitely like had
Speaker 1: absorbed a lot of maybe not so helpful messages about feminism.
Speaker 1: I guess I'll say that, Yes, yeah, I feel like there,
Speaker 1: like early, I don't know, like when I was like
Speaker 1: exposed to like early, I guess third wavy feminism, You're
Speaker 1: it just felt like this illusion of control, like if
Speaker 1: I act a certain way and I do certain things,
Speaker 1: then um, I will be an equal and which like
Speaker 1: ignores literally everything. Um. And it didn't work. And so
Speaker 1: then I think I kind of exited that area and like, um,
Speaker 1: read a book or something. I don't know. So if
Speaker 1: you had to define what a girl boss is to you, um,
Speaker 1: how would you define it? Um? I think that there's
Speaker 1: different levels of it. I feel like it's a as
Speaker 1: time goes on, it's a blanket term that doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: it can apply to a lot of different behaviors. For
Speaker 1: some people, it's literally just a woman who has power,
Speaker 1: which I think is kind of a slippery slope that
Speaker 1: um you know, uh, misogynists have co opted it and
Speaker 1: refer to any behavior of any woman with any semblance
Speaker 1: of power or influence to be girl boss ori. Um,
Speaker 1: I don't think that's the case. I like, you know,
Speaker 1: I'm I'm completely fine with women holding power like that's
Speaker 1: that's great, um in in some cases, but girl boss
Speaker 1: y is uh. Basically, I think like taking on the
Speaker 1: language of feminism to lift up yourself or a harmful
Speaker 1: institution and as an individual with like no collective interest
Speaker 1: in um in anyone but yourself, And so I feel
Speaker 1: like good examples are you're Elizabeth Holmes, is um your
Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg's who are like lifted as this example of
Speaker 1: like feminist wind. But then you look at what they're doing, uh,
Speaker 1: and it's um, you know, upholding patriarchy and appeasing uh
Speaker 1: male billionaires or that was a long definition. It's it's
Speaker 1: perfect what I was gonna say, I was going to
Speaker 1: add to your list of girl bosses or your shell
Speaker 1: Gasoline Sandwiches. Yes, she's bad. She that that woman especially
Speaker 1: like I just I don't know how she is still
Speaker 1: just like out and about it's absurd. So how did
Speaker 1: how did you come to be someone who was like
Speaker 1: really skewering this idea of the girl Boss and what
Speaker 1: it's come to me in our culture and our landscape,
Speaker 1: Like what what? Why was this something that you really
Speaker 1: wanted to poke fun at and and build commentary around.
Speaker 1: At the time, there wasn't like a ton of discussion
Speaker 1: around it. Um and what like kind of originally piqued
Speaker 1: my interest in it was I was really really into
Speaker 1: the Elizabeth Holmes story and um and I feel like
Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you've had this experience too, where like
Speaker 1: there were there would always just be like these lists
Speaker 1: that would be released kind of on like click baitier
Speaker 1: websites that are like women who are changing the podcast
Speaker 1: or like changing comedy, and like sometimes you know, like uh,
Speaker 1: my podcast The Factel Cast with Caylin Torante, like we
Speaker 1: would appear on the same list of people that I'm like, now,
Speaker 1: hold on, I cannot believe that we are doing the
Speaker 1: same thing. And I'm I'm upset that we're on the
Speaker 1: same list because this person is clearly just selling something,
Speaker 1: you know. Like so it was, it was, uh, you know,
Speaker 1: kind of a selfish frustration I was having. Um And
Speaker 1: but realizing like, Okay, we are using a lot of
Speaker 1: the same language, but it's to like attempt to um
Speaker 1: to accomplish something really different. And so I don't know.
Speaker 1: And then when I looked into the term more and
Speaker 1: then into tech specifically, I read a few different books
Speaker 1: to like get that show kind of off the ground
Speaker 1: and give it um a level of specificity that I
Speaker 1: wanted it to have. And and yeah, so I sort
Speaker 1: of just took it from there. Oh my gosh. The
Speaker 1: thing that you just said, I mean, I don't want
Speaker 1: to this is I'll just say I completely identify with
Speaker 1: those lists of you know, like, oh, women in podcasting,
Speaker 1: you should know where not to put the kind of
Speaker 1: podcast that you and I make on a pedestal. But like,
Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not really selling anything. I'm not selling courses.
Speaker 1: I'm not selling coaching. I'm not selling like a workshop.
Speaker 1: There's something that I'm trying to get you to buy.
Speaker 1: I'm trying to curate thoughtful conversations about culture and the
Speaker 1: way that gender shows up in culture. And I often
Speaker 1: met a little bit like I'm like, oh, well, like
Speaker 1: no shade to them, but we're just doing very different things.
Speaker 1: And I would not call myself like, I'm I'm not
Speaker 1: offended when I wind up on those lists, but I'm like, oh,
Speaker 1: I feel like we're doing very different things. Like the
Speaker 1: show that I'm making is different than someone who's making
Speaker 1: a show that is like you know, by my of
Speaker 1: course that teaches you how to do whatever, or like
Speaker 1: my coaching seminar that teaches you how to do whatever.
Speaker 1: I just feel like it's is an example of how
Speaker 1: like narrowly women are viewed where it's like you don't
Speaker 1: see lists like that for like men that are changing
Speaker 1: the podcasting game. They're like put into genres and categories.
Speaker 1: Um maybe because people are like listening to their work
Speaker 1: a little more care carefully and taking it more seriously.
Speaker 1: I don't know that's such a good point. And I
Speaker 1: think you know, you mentioned Elizabeth Holmes, so I was
Speaker 1: obsessed with her story. I watched every episode of The
Speaker 1: Dropout and one of the things that I think that
Speaker 1: that her story really shows us, and I think that
Speaker 1: your that your show really does a good job of
Speaker 1: like skewering this. You know. One of the things that
Speaker 1: that um uh, Gasoline Sandwich talks about is like, oh,
Speaker 1: I will teach you basic feminism and how to use
Speaker 1: it to commit crimes against the poor. And I think
Speaker 1: there's so much truth to this where we have this
Speaker 1: tendency to, I don't know, like put women and the
Speaker 1: work that we make into these specific categories and boxes
Speaker 1: that are not always helpful and not always thoughtful. Jamie
Speaker 1: and I are both captivated by Elizabeth Holmes. And if
Speaker 1: you watch the Hulu show The Dropout, you'll recall that
Speaker 1: when investigators were closing in on her and her theorop
Speaker 1: O scam, Elizabeth Holmes initiated a pretty brilliant PR push
Speaker 1: to throw off the heat. She said that she was
Speaker 1: only being attacked because she's a prominent woman in technology,
Speaker 1: which I'm sure was at least partially true, and that
Speaker 1: the whole thing was just one big sexist smear. She
Speaker 1: created a campaign called hashtag iron Sisters to celebrate strong
Speaker 1: women like her who are breaking the glass ceiling, and
Speaker 1: it kind of worked. If you search Twitter, they're still
Speaker 1: very earnest hashtag iron sisters tweets up right now, And honestly,
Speaker 1: I get it. I think this was a time when
Speaker 1: it was easy to look at a woman succeeding and
Speaker 1: say that's feminism. Whether what she was doing was a
Speaker 1: scam or actually hurting people on the dropout. When Elizabeth
Speaker 1: Holmes is like feeling the heat, she makes that campaign
Speaker 1: Iron Sisters that really highlights like, oh, you know, we're
Speaker 1: women who are who are in technology and trying to
Speaker 1: shatter the glass ceiling, as if just being a woman
Speaker 1: in technology who has a job in tech is like
Speaker 1: in and of itself an act of feminism in and
Speaker 1: of itself an act of like solidarity or something like that.
Speaker 1: And the way that that is used to kind of
Speaker 1: like not really look too deeply at the work that
Speaker 1: is actually being created. I don't know. I feel like
Speaker 1: your show does a really good job of demonstrating the
Speaker 1: ways that we have allowed i don't know, conversations around
Speaker 1: gender to really keep from really looking too hard about
Speaker 1: what's at what's actually being done. Thank you, Oh that
Speaker 1: means a lot to me. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know,
Speaker 1: it's yeah. With the with the show, it's like, I
Speaker 1: don't know, I was hoping that it would like resonate
Speaker 1: for people and try to like make light of how
Speaker 1: frustrating and kind of like predatory that trend feels. Ortlanta
Speaker 1: especially felt a couple of years ago before it was like, um,
Speaker 1: now I feel like there's like a pretty like what
Speaker 1: what's the word I'm looking for robust, Oh my god,
Speaker 1: uh robust public discussion around it. Um, but it just
Speaker 1: felt like to like connect with audiences about how frustrating
Speaker 1: it was in the same way where I'm like, I've
Speaker 1: been feeling bad for the last two minutes, being like
Speaker 1: I didn't mean that, like podcast women's podcasts that are
Speaker 1: trying to sell you lifestyle choices like are you know
Speaker 1: better or worse than than what you or I do?
Speaker 1: But then it's I don't know, I feel like there's
Speaker 1: this weird pressure to support every woman doing everything even
Speaker 1: though it's like, well, you know, wouldn't true equality mean
Speaker 1: you could kind of call bullshit on some behavior. I
Speaker 1: don't know, it's so it's so weird. I still like
Speaker 1: struggle with it. Yeah, it is a struggle, and I
Speaker 1: hear you. I don't want to make it seem like
Speaker 1: like I absolutely no shade to creators for whom that's
Speaker 1: their thing. But I do think like I think we
Speaker 1: because we live in a capitalistic healthscape nightmare society, there
Speaker 1: is an inclination to any woman who is making money
Speaker 1: there's an inclination to be like, oh, well, that's feminism.
Speaker 1: That's a win for feminism, even if they're making money
Speaker 1: in a way that is like predatory or harmful to others.
Speaker 1: And I think that we I'm glad that we're moving
Speaker 1: away from this. But I think in like peak Girl
Speaker 1: Boss era, feminism was sort of sold to us as
Speaker 1: like I'm allowed to do anything even if it hurts people,
Speaker 1: and that's feminism, and when you criticize me, that's the
Speaker 1: opposite of feminism. And I'm I guess I'm glad to
Speaker 1: see that we're sort of getting away from that because
Speaker 1: I think that was actually like not great for women.
Speaker 1: A lot of things can be true where it's like,
Speaker 1: you know, Elizabeth Holmes and Cheryl Sandberg absolutely used their
Speaker 1: status as feminist symbols to like shield themselves against falid
Speaker 1: criticism and also people were sexist towards them at different
Speaker 1: points in their career, and like both of those things
Speaker 1: are true and worthy of discussion. Um, and it's you know,
Speaker 1: not fair that they experienced discrimination, but also like using
Speaker 1: that and using like having experienced something like that as
Speaker 1: a shield for discus saying what you've done to harm
Speaker 1: other people with far less power than you do. Is like,
Speaker 1: how is that helping anything or moving anything forward? Like
Speaker 1: it doesn't. Um uh so Cheryl Sandberg is you know
Speaker 1: kind of like well, you know, people were sexist to
Speaker 1: me early in my career and still sometimes now. So
Speaker 1: I don't need to talk about the genocide I had
Speaker 1: a part. You're like, that's just um, that's that's not right, babe.
Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break out her back. The thing
Speaker 1: that really turned me on a concept of the girl
Speaker 1: boss was watching powerful women who were complicit and questionable
Speaker 1: companies or behavior enjoy this kind of un earned goodwill
Speaker 1: simply for being women. Like for a long time, people
Speaker 1: wrote about Cheryl Sandberg, formerly a Facebook in a way
Speaker 1: that suggested that she couldn't possibly have a hands on
Speaker 1: role in some of the more evil things that Facebook
Speaker 1: was responsible for because of her gender, and that completely
Speaker 1: flies in the face of reality, because Sandberg was personally
Speaker 1: responsible for some pretty messed up stuff at Facebook. She
Speaker 1: publicly defended and apologized for Facebook's role in facilitating a
Speaker 1: deadly genocide in Myanmar, but her bad behavior went beyond Facebook,
Speaker 1: including allegedly using her position at Meta to personally pressure
Speaker 1: a media outlet to kill a negative story about her
Speaker 1: then boyfriend, Blizzard Activision CEO Bobby Kotick. Now the story
Speaker 1: was about how a woman had taken a restraining order
Speaker 1: out on Kotick, who we know would go on to
Speaker 1: be accused of sexual harassment and misconduct by staffers. So
Speaker 1: Earl Sandberg, the same woman who wrote a book telling
Speaker 1: women to lean in to overcome the toxic sexist workplace
Speaker 1: Boys Club and was branded the face of corporate feminism
Speaker 1: for it was doing so while personally hurting women. I
Speaker 1: think Cheryl Sandberg is such an interesting example because something
Speaker 1: that I think is particular to her and some of
Speaker 1: the other, you know, people that you think of as
Speaker 1: girl bosses, is that, you know, when when people would
Speaker 1: criticize Facebook and all the horrible things that was responsible
Speaker 1: for globally, you know, genocide, disrupting democracies, all of those things.
Speaker 1: I feel like Cheryl Sandberg was able to enjoy this
Speaker 1: unearned vibe where because she's a woman, certainly she must
Speaker 1: be the like mature adult in the room who is
Speaker 1: trying to rein in the likes of like Mark Zuckerberg's
Speaker 1: and the other tech bros. Like she's one of the
Speaker 1: good ones. She's trying her best, and I think that
Speaker 1: that and I see that also was like Ivanka Trump
Speaker 1: that certainly she must be the voice of re in
Speaker 1: who is trying to like rate in all the men
Speaker 1: around who her, who are causing harm. And I feel
Speaker 1: like they really used this unearned goodwill that came from
Speaker 1: being women working in situations surrounded by powerful men to
Speaker 1: excuse examination of a lot of their own behavior and
Speaker 1: things that they were frankly really complicited. Like I know
Speaker 1: for a fact that Cheryl Sandberg had a pretty big
Speaker 1: hand in a lot of like harmful stuff that Facebook did,
Speaker 1: harmful stuff that other tech companies did, Like when Cheryl
Speaker 1: Sandberg was was in a relationship with Bobby Kotick, the
Speaker 1: CEO of Activision Games, and actively helped create, actively helped
Speaker 1: squash stories about his bad behavior, including like alleged sexual misconduct.
Speaker 1: And so it's like that's that is you being complicit
Speaker 1: in like behavior that hurts women and so just kind
Speaker 1: of like letting that behavior go unchecked because or a
Speaker 1: woman working in a male dominated environment, and of course
Speaker 1: you've experienced sexism, which is not okay. I think they've
Speaker 1: really been they were really savvy and using a lot
Speaker 1: of the of what you were just talking about to
Speaker 1: avoid critical looks at their own active bad behavior. Absolutely,
Speaker 1: that's I don't hear that example brought up very much.
Speaker 1: You're totally right, I kind of forget about that where
Speaker 1: it's like, you know, at that point, she's actively oppressing
Speaker 1: people and like women specifically about the you know, and
Speaker 1: and her whole like her whole book, The whole idea
Speaker 1: was like, you know, lean In is just like, well,
Speaker 1: women aren't being paid like equally or treated well because
Speaker 1: they haven't asked, which is like, it's just so wild
Speaker 1: that that was a book that came out and was
Speaker 1: like widely accepted as the truth ten years ago, where
Speaker 1: she was just like, yeah, it just like literally has
Speaker 1: not occurred to your boss to pay you equally, and
Speaker 1: you just need to like buy a blazer and and
Speaker 1: arch in there and say, guess what, buster I talk
Speaker 1: to someone and you need to give me the right
Speaker 1: amount of money, like and and that's not like completely
Speaker 1: useless advice, but I feel like girl boss mentality takes
Speaker 1: place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist,
Speaker 1: or they do exist, but they are like they can
Speaker 1: be surmounted by one person. Um, Yeah, I don't know.
Speaker 1: It's like it's it's a nice I get why. It's
Speaker 1: a nice kind of thing to buy into. And I
Speaker 1: think for like it sounds like whatever, Like Cheryl Sandberg
Speaker 1: is like a privilege sis white woman, so it it
Speaker 1: is going to be easier for her to surmount um,
Speaker 1: what's in front of her. But it just like is
Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like this kind of like bummer
Speaker 1: fantasy that you're It feels very like late two thousands
Speaker 1: where you're like, yeah, I guess that that that makes
Speaker 1: sense that everyone was so umped about that, but uh,
Speaker 1: you know now we can't now Rovie Wade doesn't even exist.
Speaker 1: So yeah, it's funny. It's wild. Yeah, it is wild,
Speaker 1: And it's like it's it's so throwback he in a
Speaker 1: kind of way because I just did a podcast episode
Speaker 1: about um Lena Dunham and I was like looking at
Speaker 1: like what was the cultural and political and social attitude
Speaker 1: of like and it was a different time, like I
Speaker 1: And it's funny. I go back and look at my
Speaker 1: Facebook page back then and like I was definitely on
Speaker 1: some like Beyonce Leslie No, like I like I really
Speaker 1: I understand my my understanding of what being a feminist was,
Speaker 1: it has really evolved. And I looked back then and
Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I thought it was like slay queen,
Speaker 1: like you know, like it wasn't very useful to me
Speaker 1: or anybody around me, Like it felt good, and I
Speaker 1: understand why. Yeah, it felt good, and I understand why
Speaker 1: I gravitated toward and like I get it the same
Speaker 1: way that like when someone's like just march in there
Speaker 1: and put on a blazer and tell your boss you
Speaker 1: want pay equality, why that advice feels good even if
Speaker 1: it's like, well, some things are institutionals, some things are systemic,
Speaker 1: Like you can't lean in individually, you know, you can't
Speaker 1: lean in out of like something that's institutional. But yeah,
Speaker 1: I just think that we really culturally we're on a
Speaker 1: journey to figure out how feminism could be actually useful
Speaker 1: in our lives, and like in what ways it maybe
Speaker 1: wouldn't be so useful. Yeah, yeah, totally, gosh. I I
Speaker 1: I feel like we we should there should be some
Speaker 1: sort of like um empathetic reckoning around like the feminism
Speaker 1: that existed ten years ago, because it's like embarrassing to
Speaker 1: look back good for me, Like I look at like
Speaker 1: I was like, oh, she was really trying, she was
Speaker 1: really trying to figure stuff out. Uh. It was basically
Speaker 1: a miss across the board. It was like a lot
Speaker 1: of leslie Nope, a lot of like uh, I don't know,
Speaker 1: like just that era where it definitely like had its
Speaker 1: part and moving us forward. But you look back at it,
Speaker 1: you're just like, man, what was what was I getting
Speaker 1: at there? Um? And it's kind of a relief, I
Speaker 1: don't know, to like look back ten years and be like, wow,
Speaker 1: things really have moved forward, like considerably, because it's like
Speaker 1: that it's like stuff that you'd barely recognize now. I
Speaker 1: don't know, like it's or something that is like kind
Speaker 1: of widely recognized as like this is fun and this
Speaker 1: like feels nice, but this isn't like productive. But it
Speaker 1: felt like we were really you know, doing something at
Speaker 1: the time. Um, it really did. Like I guess I
Speaker 1: thought like if only I bought enough notorious RBG crap
Speaker 1: on Etsy that like we would really like we wouldn't
Speaker 1: really get somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, And it's like all unethically
Speaker 1: produced and just like stuff we weren't thinking about at all,
Speaker 1: like it's just oh my god, yes, that notorious RBG. Look,
Speaker 1: I I just last year had to finally like I've
Speaker 1: kept like hiding it throughout my house, but like the
Speaker 1: I'm with her, You're just like, Jamie, what or are
Speaker 1: you doing? You're a socialist, get it together? What? Um
Speaker 1: So I am? I am? You know, I'm glad that
Speaker 1: we've moved forward with that. I was literally hiding it
Speaker 1: like I was like it was I was like just
Speaker 1: just I don't know, and then if that's the kind
Speaker 1: of thing, not me explaining what I did with my
Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton tank top. But I'm like, you can't really
Speaker 1: donate this. No one wants this, right, I don't, but
Speaker 1: I donate it and maybe they lit it on fire.
Speaker 1: I don't know, but um just wild stuff. And even
Speaker 1: like in terms of like being able to speak on
Speaker 1: harassment and abuse, like this time ten years ago because
Speaker 1: I was in uh, I was in college ten years
Speaker 1: ago and there was like no public DISCUSSI around harassment
Speaker 1: and like it just I don't know, things have really
Speaker 1: changed a lot, and it's like we actively live in hell,
Speaker 1: but I try to remember, like we know how to
Speaker 1: talk to each other about living in hell now, which
Speaker 1: is kind of um, I don't know, maybe that's like
Speaker 1: very little comfort, but it is. It does feel like
Speaker 1: an improvement. It does. And I was just thinking about
Speaker 1: this when I was prepping to speak with you today,
Speaker 1: Like I do feel like most people have like, unless
Speaker 1: you're like deep in an MLM, I feel like most
Speaker 1: people have been like, Okay, maybe the girl Boss era
Speaker 1: was not super helpful, and we've kind of like left.
Speaker 1: I feel like we've kind of moved. A lot of
Speaker 1: us have moved beyond girl boss hustle grind culture, and
Speaker 1: I think I see, you know a lot of the
Speaker 1: ways that like all these people that we think of
Speaker 1: as like o G girl Boss is, Cheryl Sandberg, Elizabeth
Speaker 1: homes Sofia Almarrosso, they have all kind of I don't
Speaker 1: want to say, like had their downfalls, but they've they've
Speaker 1: they're no longer a prominent part of the public conversation anymore.
Speaker 1: And I wonder, like, what do you think that means
Speaker 1: that so many of the O G girl bosses are
Speaker 1: now kind of fading from notoriety. And Elizabeth Holmes might
Speaker 1: be going to jail, So you know, there's that I
Speaker 1: sometimes I forget she's not in jail, which is, um, god,
Speaker 1: the age of Coachella is is so fascinating. Uh I
Speaker 1: just what can I say? Um? Okay, So I mean
Speaker 1: I don't know. I I honestly like I got so
Speaker 1: um burnt out on girl Boss culture and doing that
Speaker 1: show that I haven't really tracked very carefully, like what
Speaker 1: the followed of that is, because I do like again
Speaker 1: doing that, even doing that like dinky little show that
Speaker 1: I loved doing. But it's like, you know, I was
Speaker 1: performing that show in a storage unit in Scotland for
Speaker 1: a month, so you know, you're like it's like you're
Speaker 1: seeing a hundred people at night, but there, and and
Speaker 1: but there were some people that would you know, come
Speaker 1: up to me after that show who genuinely were like,
Speaker 1: you know, I really enjoyed it, and but like their
Speaker 1: takeaway was like women in power are disingenuous, and You're like, well,
Speaker 1: that is I think the little bit of danger that's
Speaker 1: introduced by the girl Boss um criticism and sort of
Speaker 1: that wave that I feel like is also dying now.
Speaker 1: It is just like the gigantic amount of media and
Speaker 1: now it's like the girl Boss is kind of a
Speaker 1: stock character that people are getting sick of because like
Speaker 1: you're saying, they're kind of fading from um the public.
Speaker 1: I UM. But I think, like, I think it's it's
Speaker 1: good that like women who are you know, it's taking
Speaker 1: on the language of feminists and the tools of uh
Speaker 1: oppressors like that that is something that is like completely
Speaker 1: acceptable and normal to to be able to call out um.
Speaker 1: And I think that that makes room for a lot
Speaker 1: more of I mean, I think that makes room and
Speaker 1: sets a standard for just like leaders in general of
Speaker 1: like you can't just throw your uh like your womanhood
Speaker 1: in my face and say that this shield do from
Speaker 1: critique and that's like not okay, and it's publicly kind
Speaker 1: of accepted that that's not okay. And then the other
Speaker 1: side of that, I feel like is still like misogyny
Speaker 1: still alive. And well I'm wondering, like, has the Girl
Speaker 1: Boss era and and all the very valid critique that's
Speaker 1: been made of women like this, have other women come
Speaker 1: into power in their stead? Have people been more like
Speaker 1: and has it been diverse at all? Like or is
Speaker 1: it just kind of another crop of white women who
Speaker 1: are like learning like, oh, I can't do that, I
Speaker 1: can't do that, I can't do that. But here's how
Speaker 1: I'm going to kind of innovate, leveraging the tools of
Speaker 1: oppressors against other people. I don't know, I don't feel
Speaker 1: optimistic about it. I guess, yeah, that's something that I
Speaker 1: really struggle with. It's like I definitely see the vibe
Speaker 1: of like people thinking that critiques of Girl Boss means that,
Speaker 1: like you're critiquing any woman in power, that oh, yeah,
Speaker 1: women who have power are disingenuous, they're awful, we should
Speaker 1: critique them, when that's not really what you're saying. And
Speaker 1: I do I want to because I think it's so
Speaker 1: easy for critiques of women with power to just veer
Speaker 1: into being grounded in sexism and misogyny, because like our
Speaker 1: should not hold power exactly right. But like I also
Speaker 1: think that, like, you know, I think that like leaving
Speaker 1: behind this sort of disingenuous girl Boss vibe, at least
Speaker 1: for in my own life, Like I think of myself
Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur, even though like I'm pretty shitty at it,
Speaker 1: but I think it maybe can open up room for
Speaker 1: I mean, you're trying my best, But I used to
Speaker 1: think that I had to be a certain kind of
Speaker 1: woman to be a successful entrepreneur. And now I'm realizing
Speaker 1: that all of those like very narrow um like ways
Speaker 1: of thinking we're not serving me. And what I really
Speaker 1: need to be thinking about is like making room for
Speaker 1: leadership that feels good, it is aligned with who I
Speaker 1: am and my own values and in like figuring out
Speaker 1: ways that I can lead in ways that make me
Speaker 1: feel good, get the work done, and uphold my values
Speaker 1: of how I want to treat people, and that like
Speaker 1: it's like having those be like very narrow, narrowly defined
Speaker 1: by gender is not useful to me. I don't really
Speaker 1: think it's useful to anybody, And like we have the
Speaker 1: the challenge is finding out like how we lead with
Speaker 1: our values and not how we lead along like very
Speaker 1: narrow buzzwords like girl boss. I love that, Yes, I totally,
Speaker 1: I totally agree, And I hope that that is like
Speaker 1: I hope more. I hope I just want more people
Speaker 1: to be like you rid it. I uh yeah, I
Speaker 1: mean it's like yeah, like leading with your values and
Speaker 1: like I mean because I don't know, like I funk up,
Speaker 1: like no one is going to be perfect a hundred
Speaker 1: percent of the time, which I feel like also was
Speaker 1: kind of a part of the girl boss Eto was like,
Speaker 1: there is no margin for error. Um, but like yeah,
Speaker 1: just taking out look like an honest like at what
Speaker 1: you're doing, and like just cut checking yourself. I try to.
Speaker 1: I try to do that as much as possible, where
Speaker 1: you're just like, Okay, who is this for? Like does
Speaker 1: this have a purpose? And sometimes if the answer is
Speaker 1: just like this is just a goofy weird thing I
Speaker 1: want to do, I'm like, Okay, well that's not hurting anyone.
Speaker 1: I didn't do it. But yeah, just like gut checking
Speaker 1: the potential impact of stuff you do, which is like
Speaker 1: I feel like that's more becoming auh, like go to
Speaker 1: question for not just people making stuff, but people who
Speaker 1: consume stuff as well, which I think is good. I
Speaker 1: like it more. After a quick break, let's get right
Speaker 1: back into it. Cheryl Sandberg left Facebook back in June,
Speaker 1: and she left with barely a blip when compared to
Speaker 1: the splashy fanfare that accompanied her hiring a Facebook, her books,
Speaker 1: and her successful branding as a capital w working woman.
Speaker 1: We saw the same thing with other girl boss types
Speaker 1: like Sophia Amarossa and man Repellers Landrumadine, who all left
Speaker 1: their companies. So is the era of the Girl Boss
Speaker 1: officially dead, and if so, what comes next? During those
Speaker 1: especially tough years early on in the pandemic, I saw
Speaker 1: so many women turn to aesthetics like the that girl
Speaker 1: aesthetic that prizes self care and wellness, or at least
Speaker 1: the idea of it. But will an aesthetic ever really
Speaker 1: be the thing that saves us? Will the revolution come?
Speaker 1: And imagine workout set looking onto the horizon. Now that
Speaker 1: we're sort of moving away from Girl Boss, what do
Speaker 1: you think do you think there's an ethos that might
Speaker 1: replace it? And is there a way that that ethos
Speaker 1: might be, you know, not something that is just sort
Speaker 1: of buzzwordy and co OPTI because now that we're all
Speaker 1: kind of like being like, okay, hustle grind is not?
Speaker 1: Maybe is not? Maybe the move? Um, I see all
Speaker 1: of these things like oh, like paying lots and lots
Speaker 1: of money for the idea of self care or like
Speaker 1: you know, the on TikTok, like the quote that girl
Speaker 1: aesthetic or like the slow life aesthetic. I guess I
Speaker 1: like that those are coming into style, I guess, but
Speaker 1: I still wonder if like it's just another kind of
Speaker 1: buzzworthy thing that will be co opted and ultimately you
Speaker 1: to like further marginalize us or further harm us. Like
Speaker 1: I feel like, do you think there's a way that
Speaker 1: we could expect better from these ethos that like that
Speaker 1: they might actually serve us? Yeah, I mean, I I
Speaker 1: feel like as much as is possible, like it's just
Speaker 1: talking to people in real life and like having conversations
Speaker 1: outside of the Internet, like which again, ten years ago,
Speaker 1: I really felt like, you know, feminism and like all
Speaker 1: of these like systemic problems that I did not have
Speaker 1: really much understanding of at the time, Like this is
Speaker 1: going to be something that's going to be worked out
Speaker 1: on the internet, and the Internet is a useful tool
Speaker 1: for this stuff. I don't like, I don't know, I
Speaker 1: feel like a little differently right now where I feel
Speaker 1: like obviously there is like incredible community building that happens
Speaker 1: on the Internet, and I don't want to like take
Speaker 1: away for or be reductive of of online communities, but
Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, for me, I like sometimes when
Speaker 1: your algorithm is like feeding you certain stuff and you're
Speaker 1: like you're like, I mean, I felt I I resisted
Speaker 1: the skincare, like you have to spend hundreds of dollars
Speaker 1: on skincare or you don't love yourself. Um kind of
Speaker 1: vibe for years, but then finally during lockdown, I caved
Speaker 1: and I like got a bunch of goopy not actual group,
Speaker 1: but like I bought a bunch of sauces, and you know,
Speaker 1: it's like now I love myself, which you know not true, um,
Speaker 1: and I feel like, yeah, it's just talking with my
Speaker 1: actual friends in real life. I feel like usually clarifies
Speaker 1: a lot of stuff really quickly in a way that
Speaker 1: I find really comforting and uh, life affirming because it's
Speaker 1: so easy for I mean for me, I'm like also, um,
Speaker 1: when it comes to things that are praying on my
Speaker 1: self esteem, I'm extremely gullible and so stuff like that,
Speaker 1: Like I am very, very susceptible to fall for no
Speaker 1: matter how that's I mean, which is kind of like,
Speaker 1: I don't know, I wonder what you're kind of opinion
Speaker 1: is on this stuff, because it's like I get so
Speaker 1: annoyed with myself because I'm like, wow, I like spend
Speaker 1: so much time trying to like understand how these things work,
Speaker 1: and I still when it preys on my self esteem specifically,
Speaker 1: I fall for it immediately, and I'm like, oh, my god. Yes,
Speaker 1: I'm horrible. Wait, I'm bad. I should I should buy
Speaker 1: this product? Um? So I just need to Yeah, like
Speaker 1: gut checking with a real life community and just talking
Speaker 1: to each other outside of like algorithmically dictated conversations. UM
Speaker 1: feels like what's been helpful for me? Oh, I feel
Speaker 1: the exact same way, especially during COVID like lockdown. I
Speaker 1: I can't tell you. I would be ashamed if I
Speaker 1: if I could tabulate it all up, I would be
Speaker 1: ashamed to tell you how much money I spent on
Speaker 1: like matching workout sets, yoga stuff, skincare, green juice. Is
Speaker 1: Like I just really was like I understood that I
Speaker 1: was not happy, and I mean who was happy? And
Speaker 1: during you know when COVID first sounds like who was
Speaker 1: happy during that time? But I understood that I wasn't happy,
Speaker 1: and I was trying to fill that void of unhappiness
Speaker 1: with more crap that had been targeted to me on Instagram.
Speaker 1: And for a while, it like really was like almost pathological,
Speaker 1: Like I would see a picture of a woman, you know,
Speaker 1: doing her daily routine and it looks so great, and
Speaker 1: it was like I have to buy everything that she has,
Speaker 1: and maybe that will make me happy. And it really
Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, I'm in I'm in Lockdown, COVID
Speaker 1: is happening, I'm miserable like everybody else, and I need
Speaker 1: to like nothing I can buy is going to fix that.
Speaker 1: Like I had to like like actively work to turn
Speaker 1: off whatever was in my brain that would make me hit.
Speaker 1: I when I saw a targeted, you know, algorithmically generated
Speaker 1: Instagram ad for something that was promising me this promise
Speaker 1: of having a happy, fulfilled, wholesome life that I was
Speaker 1: so yearning for. Mhm. Absolutely. And it's like and also
Speaker 1: it's like looking back on that, you're like, how lucky
Speaker 1: were we that we got to like sit at home
Speaker 1: and obsess about stuff like that, because like everyone's experience
Speaker 1: of Lockdown was so wildly different. And yeah, I it's
Speaker 1: I don't know, I I it's mind fuck And I
Speaker 1: look back at like times like that and times like that,
Speaker 1: literally the end of the world, times like that, the plague, um,
Speaker 1: and I feel like it feels almost like a different
Speaker 1: person and that was like us two years ago. Um,
Speaker 1: It's just yeah, it's wild. It is wild, and I'm
Speaker 1: I'm happy that we're able to have conversations about how
Speaker 1: we can get someplace more meaningful, meaningfully productive, I guess,
Speaker 1: and not just rely on algorithms and buying crap and
Speaker 1: buzzwords that will ultimately get us, I think, further away
Speaker 1: from where we want to be. Yeah. Yeah, and just
Speaker 1: like I don't know, like yeah, and I think like
Speaker 1: just trying to have empathy for each other and like talking,
Speaker 1: I don't know, like I have found a lot of um,
Speaker 1: I guess, like just like a lot of comfort and
Speaker 1: um it feels like, you know, a productive discussion, but
Speaker 1: also it's like not every discussion has to be productive.
Speaker 1: Sometimes we can just talk and like that's great too. Um,
Speaker 1: But the like incredible pressure and stress there is right
Speaker 1: now to understand everything that's going on all the time.
Speaker 1: Him and I feel like it's like with during the
Speaker 1: Girl Boss era, the pressure was very much like you
Speaker 1: need to I'm kind of thinking of the like Ga
Speaker 1: Talentino essay about like optimizing yourself as a woman and
Speaker 1: becoming like the optimal woman and everything you do is
Speaker 1: productive and and serving this higher purpose of like moving
Speaker 1: forward in the world. Um. And even as sort of
Speaker 1: that has become less of a popular mindset, even though
Speaker 1: it's definitely not gone, um, because you know, capitalism is
Speaker 1: still a thing. Um. I feel like there's kind of
Speaker 1: a flip side of that, where you know, the world
Speaker 1: is like metaphorically and actually on fire and there's so
Speaker 1: many things going on and that there's like this pressure
Speaker 1: that is like reinforced by the Internet to like know
Speaker 1: exactly what's going on, have a completely well articulated idea
Speaker 1: about it, like a plan of action, like all of
Speaker 1: this stuff for like five hundreds like just there. It's impossible,
Speaker 1: and I feel like being able to talk to people
Speaker 1: about the the existential stress of that without you know,
Speaker 1: going towards like nihilism and not being like, well, I'm
Speaker 1: not going to do anything, but just like talking about
Speaker 1: just being more comfortable. I don't know, I'm trying to
Speaker 1: be more comfortable saying like I don't know, um, or
Speaker 1: like I don't know much about that, or did am
Speaker 1: I making sense? I don't know? Like oh absolutely, like
Speaker 1: giving yourself space to be like I'm still working on
Speaker 1: that or like we'll see or I'm not sure, like
Speaker 1: not every kind of like we I do think that
Speaker 1: we have like the Internet has given us this pressure
Speaker 1: to be experts and everything, and they have it all
Speaker 1: figured out, and we should really be pushing back by
Speaker 1: giving us giving ourselves space in grace to be you know,
Speaker 1: not experts and not have it all figured out and
Speaker 1: not have a good action plan. And that's okay too, right,
Speaker 1: or just like yeah, with some stuff, it's like, oh,
Speaker 1: I don't I mean, right now, I'm thinking of the
Speaker 1: January sex hearings because of when we're recording this. But
Speaker 1: like I'm like, I don't have a strong opinion on
Speaker 1: that because I haven't watched it yet. I will get
Speaker 1: her out, I will do it. There's there's just been
Speaker 1: other existentially looming issues on my mind. I haven't gotten
Speaker 1: to that one yet, And um, I don't, like I
Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't feel embarrassed or in shamed
Speaker 1: that I didn't, you know, watch the five. Like how
Speaker 1: many Trials of the Year have aired on television this year? Um, yeah,
Speaker 1: I guess I don't know if that makes any sense,
Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I just and I feel like usually
Speaker 1: when you're you say something like that, there's you know
Speaker 1: a couple of people who will be like, oh, okay,
Speaker 1: cool me either, not I because it's impossible. It's like,
Speaker 1: I mean, for some people I mean, I know that
Speaker 1: there's a select few that are just like extremely good
Speaker 1: at staying on top of stuff, but it's it's impossible
Speaker 1: to be a person um that and um be completely
Speaker 1: on top of everything all the time. It doesn't you know,
Speaker 1: Like the attempt I think is important and we should
Speaker 1: know as much as we can, um, But the whole
Speaker 1: idea of like curation and like not only do I
Speaker 1: need to know everything, but I need to be able
Speaker 1: to speak to it in the most Like it's like, Okay,
Speaker 1: give yourself a little bit of space, give yourself a
Speaker 1: little bit of time. The world will still be ending tomorrow.
Speaker 1: I have a good friend of mine who has done
Speaker 1: a lot of work in like active war zones, and
Speaker 1: one of the things that she says is to keep
Speaker 1: your peace, you have to limit the amount of news
Speaker 1: that you consume, that you actively consume and just trust
Speaker 1: that you if it's something big that you really need
Speaker 1: to have on your radar, it will find itself to you.
Speaker 1: Because that's because it will, Like if there's something that
Speaker 1: you actually need to be like knowing every minute detail
Speaker 1: of each January six mission, hearing all the major players
Speaker 1: that won't bring you peace and it actually might not
Speaker 1: even make you better informed. It will definitely make you anxious,
Speaker 1: and it might even give you up at night. And
Speaker 1: so just knowing that like the broad strokes, just trusting
Speaker 1: that the broad strokes of what you need to know
Speaker 1: will reach you, and it probably will. That's that's like
Speaker 1: a key to to keeping your peace when things are
Speaker 1: falling apart and on fire all around us every day,
Speaker 1: all the time. Totally. Yeah, Okay, that that is you
Speaker 1: just like said it all in one sentence. What took
Speaker 1: me like an hour to like circle around too, But
Speaker 1: you like, yeah, like as long as you know, I
Speaker 1: have like a few news sources that I trust, and
Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I do trust, you know, the people
Speaker 1: working at X new source to tell me what I
Speaker 1: need to know in a way that isn't I don't know,
Speaker 1: Like so much of the way that news is presented
Speaker 1: to us now is performance, and it's sometimes feels I
Speaker 1: feel like shame and like embarrassment for like not being
Speaker 1: able to engage with it in real time. Um, but
Speaker 1: then I just have to remind myself, like the I
Speaker 1: don't know, like the ramifications of what is being said
Speaker 1: and what is being shown and decided are incredibly real.
Speaker 1: The way they're presented is performance, and so like, how
Speaker 1: can I I need to be able to engage with
Speaker 1: the results. I have to be able to engage with
Speaker 1: understanding who is this going to affect? Like what is
Speaker 1: there anything within my power that I can be helpful
Speaker 1: with or like, you know, just sort of sorting that
Speaker 1: out when when any existentially stressful issue comes up, which
Speaker 1: it feels like happens every other day, but the way
Speaker 1: it's presented is so, um, I don't know, it doesn't
Speaker 1: feel productive and it and it like you're saying, like
Speaker 1: it keeps you up at night and it feels bad
Speaker 1: and um, and you don't need to engage with the
Speaker 1: circus to understand what the result of the circus is,
Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I'd like I'm not explaining it
Speaker 1: very well, but I'm trying to like develop a healthier
Speaker 1: attitude towards that and not feeling a shame for not
Speaker 1: wanting to watch a four hour broadcast of Um, you
Speaker 1: know MP four is of the most horrific ship ever that. Yeah,
Speaker 1: can you tell us a bit more about Lolita, Pod,
Speaker 1: Ghost Church and Bechtel Cast? Yeah? Cool? Um? Yeah, So
Speaker 1: I UM have a couple of different podcasts that I've
Speaker 1: worked on. My weekly podcast, UM, which Pridget has been
Speaker 1: a guest on before, is called the Bechtel Cast. It's
Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist look at everyone's favorite movies. That's with
Speaker 1: my friend Caitlin Durante on I Radio. UM. It's my favorite.
Speaker 1: I really love doing it. And then I've also done
Speaker 1: a couple of UM solo podcasts that are more investigative
Speaker 1: and they're all like limited series UM. And those are
Speaker 1: UM the ones we were talking about where Lolita podcast,
Speaker 1: which is a time episode examination of the book Lolita
Speaker 1: and kind of how um it was wildly taken out
Speaker 1: of context by UM the whole world. And then my
Speaker 1: most recent one is about American spiritualism, which is like
Speaker 1: a movement, uh that started in the eighteen hundreds that
Speaker 1: encourage people to talk to the dead vo sciences and
Speaker 1: it's called ghost Church. I went to this like community
Speaker 1: of elderly um psychics in Florida to do some research
Speaker 1: and like looked into the history of the movement and uh,
Speaker 1: there's a lot there. I really enjoyed doing it. I
Speaker 1: got a story about an interesting thing in tech or
Speaker 1: just want to say hi, you can reach us at
Speaker 1: Hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find
Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are
Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod.
Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan
Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer, Ary Harrison as our producer
Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm
Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow,
Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts
Speaker 1: from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app,
Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.