1 00:00:00,200 --> 00:00:03,560 Speaker 1: I feel like girl boss mentality takes place in this 2 00:00:03,720 --> 00:00:09,440 Speaker 1: void where systemic issues don't really exist, or they do exist, 3 00:00:09,680 --> 00:00:19,040 Speaker 1: but they can be surmounted by one person. There are 4 00:00:19,040 --> 00:00:20,720 Speaker 1: no girls on the Internet. As a production of I 5 00:00:20,800 --> 00:00:28,080 Speaker 1: Heart Radio and Unbossed Creative, I'm Bridget Todd, and this 6 00:00:28,160 --> 00:00:33,160 Speaker 1: is there are no girls on the Internet. No podcast 7 00:00:33,200 --> 00:00:36,720 Speaker 1: about women and technology could be complete without talking about 8 00:00:36,800 --> 00:00:41,480 Speaker 1: the era of the girl boss. In the odds around, 9 00:00:43,240 --> 00:00:47,879 Speaker 1: women were leaning in girl Boston and hashtag hustling in 10 00:00:47,960 --> 00:00:52,920 Speaker 1: traditionally male dominated spaces like technology and entrepreneurship. So when 11 00:00:52,960 --> 00:00:55,080 Speaker 1: I hear the word girl boss, I think of women 12 00:00:55,120 --> 00:01:00,360 Speaker 1: like Cheryl Sandberg formerly of Facebook, Sophia Amarossa, who basically 13 00:01:00,360 --> 00:01:04,040 Speaker 1: wrote the book on girl Boss memoir and the Netflix 14 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:07,240 Speaker 1: show based on her life was literally called girl Boss, 15 00:01:07,319 --> 00:01:11,840 Speaker 1: and Elizabeth Holmes, who may have girl bossed a little 16 00:01:11,840 --> 00:01:15,200 Speaker 1: bit too close to the sun when her blood testing company, 17 00:01:15,240 --> 00:01:18,520 Speaker 1: Sara Knows was revealed to be a scam. And I 18 00:01:18,680 --> 00:01:21,040 Speaker 1: will admit I had a bit of a girl boss 19 00:01:21,040 --> 00:01:25,000 Speaker 1: era where I thought feminism was connected to me individually, 20 00:01:25,120 --> 00:01:28,240 Speaker 1: kicking as professionally and making a lot of money. Now, 21 00:01:28,280 --> 00:01:32,240 Speaker 1: to be clear, there is absolutely nothing wrong with women 22 00:01:32,280 --> 00:01:35,240 Speaker 1: having ambition in their careers or holding power. That is 23 00:01:35,280 --> 00:01:38,280 Speaker 1: all great, but the girl boss era really sold us 24 00:01:38,319 --> 00:01:41,920 Speaker 1: ambition as liberation. It sold us on the idea that 25 00:01:41,959 --> 00:01:44,760 Speaker 1: you could lean in and overperform your way out of 26 00:01:44,840 --> 00:01:51,280 Speaker 1: institutional systems like racism, patriarchy, sexism, and capitalism and more 27 00:01:51,280 --> 00:01:53,680 Speaker 1: and more. I think we're seeing the flaws in that 28 00:01:53,800 --> 00:01:57,680 Speaker 1: mindset in her one woman show, Girl Whom His Boss? 29 00:01:58,000 --> 00:02:02,040 Speaker 1: Comedian and podcaster Jamie Law this takes on the girl boss. 30 00:02:02,680 --> 00:02:06,880 Speaker 1: Her Cheryl Sandberg style girl boss archetype is named Shell 31 00:02:07,200 --> 00:02:11,480 Speaker 1: Gasolene Sandwich, and she's a toxic corporate feminist who's teaching 32 00:02:11,520 --> 00:02:14,600 Speaker 1: all fellow girl bosses how to use technology to steal 33 00:02:14,680 --> 00:02:19,000 Speaker 1: data for fun profit and hashtag feminism. It's part skiering, 34 00:02:19,440 --> 00:02:33,920 Speaker 1: parts end up, and a hundred percent hilarious. So I 35 00:02:34,040 --> 00:02:37,600 Speaker 1: just finished watching Girl Whom His Boss. It is hysterical, 36 00:02:37,960 --> 00:02:40,240 Speaker 1: and I want to start with a question, be honest, 37 00:02:41,120 --> 00:02:44,040 Speaker 1: Before you did Girl Whom His Boss? Did you go 38 00:02:44,160 --> 00:02:50,560 Speaker 1: through a girl boss phase? Um? Probably, I think it's 39 00:02:50,600 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 1: like I've it's hard. It's it's a kind of struggle 40 00:02:54,080 --> 00:02:57,880 Speaker 1: with the term, especially because I've like messed with it. 41 00:02:57,960 --> 00:03:00,880 Speaker 1: So heavily. I mean, I don't know. I think you 42 00:03:00,919 --> 00:03:06,280 Speaker 1: can describe a lot of um trying to make space 43 00:03:06,320 --> 00:03:10,120 Speaker 1: for yourself where it doesn't exist as girl boss behavior, 44 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:13,000 Speaker 1: and then if you're a little disingenuous about it, that 45 00:03:13,080 --> 00:03:15,639 Speaker 1: really turns up the girl boss factor. I'm sure I've 46 00:03:15,639 --> 00:03:21,040 Speaker 1: had girl boss moments over the years, not like um 47 00:03:21,280 --> 00:03:27,320 Speaker 1: ones that are that almost kill people, but I'm sure 48 00:03:27,360 --> 00:03:30,519 Speaker 1: that there's I've I I feel like, you know, we've 49 00:03:30,560 --> 00:03:33,240 Speaker 1: all had our girl boss moments and then you reflect 50 00:03:33,280 --> 00:03:35,200 Speaker 1: on them and you're just like, hopefully they weren't you know, 51 00:03:35,680 --> 00:03:39,080 Speaker 1: publicly documented or anything. I don't know, I don't know, 52 00:03:39,160 --> 00:03:42,440 Speaker 1: that's a good question, have you Oh my god. I mean, 53 00:03:42,520 --> 00:03:45,800 Speaker 1: I wasn't starting any genocides in meanma or anything, but 54 00:03:46,200 --> 00:03:49,000 Speaker 1: I was definitely had a phase where I was kind 55 00:03:49,000 --> 00:03:52,360 Speaker 1: of I don't know, but like I read Sophia Amarosso's 56 00:03:52,360 --> 00:03:55,400 Speaker 1: book Girl Boss when it first came out, and right, 57 00:03:55,600 --> 00:03:58,560 Speaker 1: I definitely had this idea that it was it was. 58 00:03:58,840 --> 00:04:02,040 Speaker 1: I had absorbed this message that it was important to 59 00:04:02,120 --> 00:04:06,400 Speaker 1: be a specific kind of working woman, like a you know, 60 00:04:06,480 --> 00:04:09,920 Speaker 1: woman who wore blazers, and like, you know, like I 61 00:04:10,320 --> 00:04:11,960 Speaker 1: had this idea that you had to be a certain 62 00:04:12,040 --> 00:04:16,400 Speaker 1: kind of woman to be successful professionally, and that how 63 00:04:16,520 --> 00:04:19,400 Speaker 1: I was just normally was not that. And then I 64 00:04:19,400 --> 00:04:21,400 Speaker 1: needed to like I don't know if I'm call it 65 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,920 Speaker 1: a girl boss era, but I was definitely like had 66 00:04:23,960 --> 00:04:28,800 Speaker 1: absorbed a lot of maybe not so helpful messages about feminism. 67 00:04:28,800 --> 00:04:32,279 Speaker 1: I guess I'll say that, Yes, yeah, I feel like there, 68 00:04:33,240 --> 00:04:35,080 Speaker 1: like early, I don't know, like when I was like 69 00:04:35,200 --> 00:04:40,880 Speaker 1: exposed to like early, I guess third wavy feminism, You're 70 00:04:41,360 --> 00:04:44,160 Speaker 1: it just felt like this illusion of control, like if 71 00:04:44,200 --> 00:04:46,400 Speaker 1: I act a certain way and I do certain things, 72 00:04:47,160 --> 00:04:51,680 Speaker 1: then um, I will be an equal and which like 73 00:04:51,760 --> 00:04:57,040 Speaker 1: ignores literally everything. Um. And it didn't work. And so 74 00:04:57,120 --> 00:05:01,680 Speaker 1: then I think I kind of exited that area and like, um, 75 00:05:01,880 --> 00:05:05,880 Speaker 1: read a book or something. I don't know. So if 76 00:05:05,920 --> 00:05:08,800 Speaker 1: you had to define what a girl boss is to you, um, 77 00:05:08,800 --> 00:05:13,760 Speaker 1: how would you define it? Um? I think that there's 78 00:05:13,839 --> 00:05:17,320 Speaker 1: different levels of it. I feel like it's a as 79 00:05:17,360 --> 00:05:20,000 Speaker 1: time goes on, it's a blanket term that doesn't you know, 80 00:05:20,279 --> 00:05:22,800 Speaker 1: it can apply to a lot of different behaviors. For 81 00:05:22,920 --> 00:05:26,360 Speaker 1: some people, it's literally just a woman who has power, 82 00:05:26,440 --> 00:05:28,600 Speaker 1: which I think is kind of a slippery slope that 83 00:05:28,839 --> 00:05:32,520 Speaker 1: um you know, uh, misogynists have co opted it and 84 00:05:32,680 --> 00:05:36,280 Speaker 1: refer to any behavior of any woman with any semblance 85 00:05:36,320 --> 00:05:39,640 Speaker 1: of power or influence to be girl boss ori. Um, 86 00:05:39,680 --> 00:05:42,960 Speaker 1: I don't think that's the case. I like, you know, 87 00:05:43,000 --> 00:05:46,440 Speaker 1: I'm I'm completely fine with women holding power like that's 88 00:05:46,560 --> 00:05:50,440 Speaker 1: that's great, um in in some cases, but girl boss 89 00:05:50,600 --> 00:05:54,120 Speaker 1: y is uh. Basically, I think like taking on the 90 00:05:54,240 --> 00:05:59,160 Speaker 1: language of feminism to lift up yourself or a harmful 91 00:05:59,200 --> 00:06:03,479 Speaker 1: institution and as an individual with like no collective interest 92 00:06:03,680 --> 00:06:07,039 Speaker 1: in um in anyone but yourself, And so I feel 93 00:06:07,080 --> 00:06:12,280 Speaker 1: like good examples are you're Elizabeth Holmes, is um your 94 00:06:12,720 --> 00:06:16,680 Speaker 1: Cheryl Sandberg's who are like lifted as this example of 95 00:06:16,760 --> 00:06:20,760 Speaker 1: like feminist wind. But then you look at what they're doing, uh, 96 00:06:20,760 --> 00:06:25,800 Speaker 1: and it's um, you know, upholding patriarchy and appeasing uh 97 00:06:26,000 --> 00:06:30,200 Speaker 1: male billionaires or that was a long definition. It's it's 98 00:06:30,200 --> 00:06:31,600 Speaker 1: perfect what I was gonna say, I was going to 99 00:06:31,640 --> 00:06:34,240 Speaker 1: add to your list of girl bosses or your shell 100 00:06:34,279 --> 00:06:39,880 Speaker 1: Gasoline Sandwiches. Yes, she's bad. She that that woman especially 101 00:06:40,000 --> 00:06:42,839 Speaker 1: like I just I don't know how she is still 102 00:06:42,880 --> 00:06:46,200 Speaker 1: just like out and about it's absurd. So how did 103 00:06:46,400 --> 00:06:48,320 Speaker 1: how did you come to be someone who was like 104 00:06:48,839 --> 00:06:52,000 Speaker 1: really skewering this idea of the girl Boss and what 105 00:06:52,080 --> 00:06:54,360 Speaker 1: it's come to me in our culture and our landscape, 106 00:06:54,400 --> 00:06:56,400 Speaker 1: Like what what? Why was this something that you really 107 00:06:56,400 --> 00:07:00,440 Speaker 1: wanted to poke fun at and and build commentary around. 108 00:07:00,880 --> 00:07:03,560 Speaker 1: At the time, there wasn't like a ton of discussion 109 00:07:04,000 --> 00:07:09,320 Speaker 1: around it. Um and what like kind of originally piqued 110 00:07:09,360 --> 00:07:11,320 Speaker 1: my interest in it was I was really really into 111 00:07:11,360 --> 00:07:17,640 Speaker 1: the Elizabeth Holmes story and um and I feel like 112 00:07:17,840 --> 00:07:20,320 Speaker 1: I'm wondering if you've had this experience too, where like 113 00:07:20,920 --> 00:07:24,520 Speaker 1: there were there would always just be like these lists 114 00:07:24,560 --> 00:07:27,560 Speaker 1: that would be released kind of on like click baitier 115 00:07:27,840 --> 00:07:32,880 Speaker 1: websites that are like women who are changing the podcast 116 00:07:33,040 --> 00:07:39,840 Speaker 1: or like changing comedy, and like sometimes you know, like uh, 117 00:07:39,960 --> 00:07:43,560 Speaker 1: my podcast The Factel Cast with Caylin Torante, like we 118 00:07:43,600 --> 00:07:46,280 Speaker 1: would appear on the same list of people that I'm like, now, 119 00:07:46,320 --> 00:07:49,520 Speaker 1: hold on, I cannot believe that we are doing the 120 00:07:49,600 --> 00:07:51,920 Speaker 1: same thing. And I'm I'm upset that we're on the 121 00:07:51,960 --> 00:07:55,280 Speaker 1: same list because this person is clearly just selling something, 122 00:07:55,320 --> 00:07:58,240 Speaker 1: you know. Like so it was, it was, uh, you know, 123 00:07:58,320 --> 00:08:02,000 Speaker 1: kind of a selfish frustration I was having. Um And 124 00:08:02,120 --> 00:08:05,000 Speaker 1: but realizing like, Okay, we are using a lot of 125 00:08:05,040 --> 00:08:08,480 Speaker 1: the same language, but it's to like attempt to um 126 00:08:08,560 --> 00:08:12,480 Speaker 1: to accomplish something really different. And so I don't know. 127 00:08:12,600 --> 00:08:14,560 Speaker 1: And then when I looked into the term more and 128 00:08:14,600 --> 00:08:20,679 Speaker 1: then into tech specifically, I read a few different books 129 00:08:20,720 --> 00:08:23,760 Speaker 1: to like get that show kind of off the ground 130 00:08:23,760 --> 00:08:27,920 Speaker 1: and give it um a level of specificity that I 131 00:08:27,960 --> 00:08:30,120 Speaker 1: wanted it to have. And and yeah, so I sort 132 00:08:30,160 --> 00:08:31,920 Speaker 1: of just took it from there. Oh my gosh. The 133 00:08:31,920 --> 00:08:33,280 Speaker 1: thing that you just said, I mean, I don't want 134 00:08:33,280 --> 00:08:36,360 Speaker 1: to this is I'll just say I completely identify with 135 00:08:36,400 --> 00:08:40,319 Speaker 1: those lists of you know, like, oh, women in podcasting, 136 00:08:40,400 --> 00:08:43,280 Speaker 1: you should know where not to put the kind of 137 00:08:43,320 --> 00:08:45,440 Speaker 1: podcast that you and I make on a pedestal. But like, 138 00:08:45,640 --> 00:08:48,320 Speaker 1: I'm not I'm not really selling anything. I'm not selling courses. 139 00:08:48,360 --> 00:08:51,440 Speaker 1: I'm not selling coaching. I'm not selling like a workshop. 140 00:08:51,480 --> 00:08:53,040 Speaker 1: There's something that I'm trying to get you to buy. 141 00:08:53,080 --> 00:08:57,400 Speaker 1: I'm trying to curate thoughtful conversations about culture and the 142 00:08:57,440 --> 00:08:59,920 Speaker 1: way that gender shows up in culture. And I often 143 00:09:00,559 --> 00:09:02,080 Speaker 1: met a little bit like I'm like, oh, well, like 144 00:09:02,559 --> 00:09:05,200 Speaker 1: no shade to them, but we're just doing very different things. 145 00:09:05,200 --> 00:09:07,520 Speaker 1: And I would not call myself like, I'm I'm not 146 00:09:07,559 --> 00:09:10,000 Speaker 1: offended when I wind up on those lists, but I'm like, oh, 147 00:09:10,320 --> 00:09:13,240 Speaker 1: I feel like we're doing very different things. Like the 148 00:09:13,240 --> 00:09:15,760 Speaker 1: show that I'm making is different than someone who's making 149 00:09:15,760 --> 00:09:21,560 Speaker 1: a show that is like you know, by my of 150 00:09:21,559 --> 00:09:24,320 Speaker 1: course that teaches you how to do whatever, or like 151 00:09:24,400 --> 00:09:26,400 Speaker 1: my coaching seminar that teaches you how to do whatever. 152 00:09:27,320 --> 00:09:30,240 Speaker 1: I just feel like it's is an example of how 153 00:09:30,360 --> 00:09:34,840 Speaker 1: like narrowly women are viewed where it's like you don't 154 00:09:34,920 --> 00:09:38,480 Speaker 1: see lists like that for like men that are changing 155 00:09:38,520 --> 00:09:42,079 Speaker 1: the podcasting game. They're like put into genres and categories. 156 00:09:42,280 --> 00:09:44,840 Speaker 1: Um maybe because people are like listening to their work 157 00:09:44,840 --> 00:09:47,480 Speaker 1: a little more care carefully and taking it more seriously. 158 00:09:48,040 --> 00:09:49,720 Speaker 1: I don't know that's such a good point. And I 159 00:09:49,720 --> 00:09:51,840 Speaker 1: think you know, you mentioned Elizabeth Holmes, so I was 160 00:09:51,880 --> 00:09:53,880 Speaker 1: obsessed with her story. I watched every episode of The 161 00:09:53,960 --> 00:09:56,480 Speaker 1: Dropout and one of the things that I think that 162 00:09:56,480 --> 00:09:58,840 Speaker 1: that her story really shows us, and I think that 163 00:09:58,880 --> 00:10:00,920 Speaker 1: your that your show really does a good job of 164 00:10:00,960 --> 00:10:04,400 Speaker 1: like skewering this. You know. One of the things that 165 00:10:04,400 --> 00:10:08,719 Speaker 1: that um uh, Gasoline Sandwich talks about is like, oh, 166 00:10:08,720 --> 00:10:11,360 Speaker 1: I will teach you basic feminism and how to use 167 00:10:11,400 --> 00:10:13,520 Speaker 1: it to commit crimes against the poor. And I think 168 00:10:13,520 --> 00:10:15,520 Speaker 1: there's so much truth to this where we have this 169 00:10:15,600 --> 00:10:20,920 Speaker 1: tendency to, I don't know, like put women and the 170 00:10:20,960 --> 00:10:24,840 Speaker 1: work that we make into these specific categories and boxes 171 00:10:24,880 --> 00:10:29,600 Speaker 1: that are not always helpful and not always thoughtful. Jamie 172 00:10:29,640 --> 00:10:32,920 Speaker 1: and I are both captivated by Elizabeth Holmes. And if 173 00:10:32,960 --> 00:10:35,760 Speaker 1: you watch the Hulu show The Dropout, you'll recall that 174 00:10:35,800 --> 00:10:38,720 Speaker 1: when investigators were closing in on her and her theorop 175 00:10:38,800 --> 00:10:43,240 Speaker 1: O scam, Elizabeth Holmes initiated a pretty brilliant PR push 176 00:10:43,679 --> 00:10:46,320 Speaker 1: to throw off the heat. She said that she was 177 00:10:46,360 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: only being attacked because she's a prominent woman in technology, 178 00:10:49,800 --> 00:10:52,520 Speaker 1: which I'm sure was at least partially true, and that 179 00:10:52,640 --> 00:10:56,680 Speaker 1: the whole thing was just one big sexist smear. She 180 00:10:56,800 --> 00:11:01,040 Speaker 1: created a campaign called hashtag iron Sisters to celebrate strong 181 00:11:01,080 --> 00:11:04,319 Speaker 1: women like her who are breaking the glass ceiling, and 182 00:11:04,400 --> 00:11:08,120 Speaker 1: it kind of worked. If you search Twitter, they're still 183 00:11:08,480 --> 00:11:13,240 Speaker 1: very earnest hashtag iron sisters tweets up right now, And honestly, 184 00:11:13,480 --> 00:11:15,679 Speaker 1: I get it. I think this was a time when 185 00:11:15,679 --> 00:11:17,679 Speaker 1: it was easy to look at a woman succeeding and 186 00:11:17,720 --> 00:11:20,800 Speaker 1: say that's feminism. Whether what she was doing was a 187 00:11:20,880 --> 00:11:25,600 Speaker 1: scam or actually hurting people on the dropout. When Elizabeth 188 00:11:25,600 --> 00:11:28,720 Speaker 1: Holmes is like feeling the heat, she makes that campaign 189 00:11:28,920 --> 00:11:32,760 Speaker 1: Iron Sisters that really highlights like, oh, you know, we're 190 00:11:32,800 --> 00:11:35,199 Speaker 1: women who are who are in technology and trying to 191 00:11:35,200 --> 00:11:38,439 Speaker 1: shatter the glass ceiling, as if just being a woman 192 00:11:38,480 --> 00:11:42,200 Speaker 1: in technology who has a job in tech is like 193 00:11:42,360 --> 00:11:44,840 Speaker 1: in and of itself an act of feminism in and 194 00:11:44,880 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: of itself an act of like solidarity or something like that. 195 00:11:48,160 --> 00:11:50,600 Speaker 1: And the way that that is used to kind of 196 00:11:50,640 --> 00:11:54,160 Speaker 1: like not really look too deeply at the work that 197 00:11:54,320 --> 00:11:56,480 Speaker 1: is actually being created. I don't know. I feel like 198 00:11:56,480 --> 00:11:59,360 Speaker 1: your show does a really good job of demonstrating the 199 00:11:59,400 --> 00:12:04,000 Speaker 1: ways that we have allowed i don't know, conversations around 200 00:12:04,040 --> 00:12:07,360 Speaker 1: gender to really keep from really looking too hard about 201 00:12:07,400 --> 00:12:11,720 Speaker 1: what's at what's actually being done. Thank you, Oh that 202 00:12:11,800 --> 00:12:14,280 Speaker 1: means a lot to me. Thanks. Yeah, I don't know, 203 00:12:14,320 --> 00:12:18,480 Speaker 1: it's yeah. With the with the show, it's like, I 204 00:12:18,520 --> 00:12:21,880 Speaker 1: don't know, I was hoping that it would like resonate 205 00:12:22,040 --> 00:12:27,720 Speaker 1: for people and try to like make light of how 206 00:12:28,200 --> 00:12:33,560 Speaker 1: frustrating and kind of like predatory that trend feels. Ortlanta 207 00:12:33,679 --> 00:12:38,000 Speaker 1: especially felt a couple of years ago before it was like, um, 208 00:12:38,080 --> 00:12:41,840 Speaker 1: now I feel like there's like a pretty like what 209 00:12:42,040 --> 00:12:45,439 Speaker 1: what's the word I'm looking for robust, Oh my god, 210 00:12:46,080 --> 00:12:50,640 Speaker 1: uh robust public discussion around it. Um, but it just 211 00:12:50,679 --> 00:12:54,640 Speaker 1: felt like to like connect with audiences about how frustrating 212 00:12:54,640 --> 00:12:56,640 Speaker 1: it was in the same way where I'm like, I've 213 00:12:56,640 --> 00:12:58,880 Speaker 1: been feeling bad for the last two minutes, being like 214 00:12:59,000 --> 00:13:02,520 Speaker 1: I didn't mean that, like podcast women's podcasts that are 215 00:13:02,520 --> 00:13:06,120 Speaker 1: trying to sell you lifestyle choices like are you know 216 00:13:06,280 --> 00:13:09,000 Speaker 1: better or worse than than what you or I do? 217 00:13:09,080 --> 00:13:11,319 Speaker 1: But then it's I don't know, I feel like there's 218 00:13:11,360 --> 00:13:17,560 Speaker 1: this weird pressure to support every woman doing everything even 219 00:13:17,559 --> 00:13:20,520 Speaker 1: though it's like, well, you know, wouldn't true equality mean 220 00:13:20,679 --> 00:13:23,800 Speaker 1: you could kind of call bullshit on some behavior. I 221 00:13:23,840 --> 00:13:26,880 Speaker 1: don't know, it's so it's so weird. I still like 222 00:13:27,000 --> 00:13:30,480 Speaker 1: struggle with it. Yeah, it is a struggle, and I 223 00:13:30,720 --> 00:13:32,400 Speaker 1: hear you. I don't want to make it seem like 224 00:13:32,400 --> 00:13:35,719 Speaker 1: like I absolutely no shade to creators for whom that's 225 00:13:35,760 --> 00:13:39,360 Speaker 1: their thing. But I do think like I think we 226 00:13:39,480 --> 00:13:43,480 Speaker 1: because we live in a capitalistic healthscape nightmare society, there 227 00:13:43,600 --> 00:13:50,240 Speaker 1: is an inclination to any woman who is making money 228 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:53,080 Speaker 1: there's an inclination to be like, oh, well, that's feminism. 229 00:13:53,120 --> 00:13:55,760 Speaker 1: That's a win for feminism, even if they're making money 230 00:13:55,760 --> 00:13:58,360 Speaker 1: in a way that is like predatory or harmful to others. 231 00:13:58,640 --> 00:14:01,120 Speaker 1: And I think that we I'm glad that we're moving 232 00:14:01,120 --> 00:14:03,080 Speaker 1: away from this. But I think in like peak Girl 233 00:14:03,160 --> 00:14:06,880 Speaker 1: Boss era, feminism was sort of sold to us as 234 00:14:07,760 --> 00:14:10,360 Speaker 1: like I'm allowed to do anything even if it hurts people, 235 00:14:10,400 --> 00:14:13,480 Speaker 1: and that's feminism, and when you criticize me, that's the 236 00:14:13,480 --> 00:14:16,360 Speaker 1: opposite of feminism. And I'm I guess I'm glad to 237 00:14:16,400 --> 00:14:18,360 Speaker 1: see that we're sort of getting away from that because 238 00:14:18,360 --> 00:14:20,960 Speaker 1: I think that was actually like not great for women. 239 00:14:21,440 --> 00:14:24,240 Speaker 1: A lot of things can be true where it's like, 240 00:14:24,680 --> 00:14:30,120 Speaker 1: you know, Elizabeth Holmes and Cheryl Sandberg absolutely used their 241 00:14:30,200 --> 00:14:34,040 Speaker 1: status as feminist symbols to like shield themselves against falid 242 00:14:34,080 --> 00:14:38,200 Speaker 1: criticism and also people were sexist towards them at different 243 00:14:38,200 --> 00:14:40,720 Speaker 1: points in their career, and like both of those things 244 00:14:41,240 --> 00:14:47,560 Speaker 1: are true and worthy of discussion. Um, and it's you know, 245 00:14:47,600 --> 00:14:55,200 Speaker 1: not fair that they experienced discrimination, but also like using 246 00:14:55,240 --> 00:14:58,800 Speaker 1: that and using like having experienced something like that as 247 00:14:58,800 --> 00:15:02,560 Speaker 1: a shield for discus saying what you've done to harm 248 00:15:02,560 --> 00:15:06,600 Speaker 1: other people with far less power than you do. Is like, 249 00:15:07,280 --> 00:15:11,600 Speaker 1: how is that helping anything or moving anything forward? Like 250 00:15:12,240 --> 00:15:17,240 Speaker 1: it doesn't. Um uh so Cheryl Sandberg is you know 251 00:15:17,360 --> 00:15:21,320 Speaker 1: kind of like well, you know, people were sexist to 252 00:15:21,440 --> 00:15:24,480 Speaker 1: me early in my career and still sometimes now. So 253 00:15:24,640 --> 00:15:28,200 Speaker 1: I don't need to talk about the genocide I had 254 00:15:28,200 --> 00:15:33,240 Speaker 1: a part. You're like, that's just um, that's that's not right, babe. 255 00:15:36,760 --> 00:15:50,600 Speaker 1: Let's take a quick break out her back. The thing 256 00:15:50,640 --> 00:15:52,440 Speaker 1: that really turned me on a concept of the girl 257 00:15:52,520 --> 00:15:56,640 Speaker 1: boss was watching powerful women who were complicit and questionable 258 00:15:56,680 --> 00:16:00,840 Speaker 1: companies or behavior enjoy this kind of un earned goodwill 259 00:16:01,320 --> 00:16:04,920 Speaker 1: simply for being women. Like for a long time, people 260 00:16:04,920 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: wrote about Cheryl Sandberg, formerly a Facebook in a way 261 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:11,080 Speaker 1: that suggested that she couldn't possibly have a hands on 262 00:16:11,280 --> 00:16:14,120 Speaker 1: role in some of the more evil things that Facebook 263 00:16:14,240 --> 00:16:18,200 Speaker 1: was responsible for because of her gender, and that completely 264 00:16:18,280 --> 00:16:22,040 Speaker 1: flies in the face of reality, because Sandberg was personally 265 00:16:22,040 --> 00:16:26,040 Speaker 1: responsible for some pretty messed up stuff at Facebook. She 266 00:16:26,240 --> 00:16:31,000 Speaker 1: publicly defended and apologized for Facebook's role in facilitating a 267 00:16:31,080 --> 00:16:36,600 Speaker 1: deadly genocide in Myanmar, but her bad behavior went beyond Facebook, 268 00:16:36,920 --> 00:16:42,040 Speaker 1: including allegedly using her position at Meta to personally pressure 269 00:16:42,040 --> 00:16:45,120 Speaker 1: a media outlet to kill a negative story about her 270 00:16:45,160 --> 00:16:49,920 Speaker 1: then boyfriend, Blizzard Activision CEO Bobby Kotick. Now the story 271 00:16:50,000 --> 00:16:52,360 Speaker 1: was about how a woman had taken a restraining order 272 00:16:52,400 --> 00:16:54,720 Speaker 1: out on Kotick, who we know would go on to 273 00:16:54,760 --> 00:16:59,520 Speaker 1: be accused of sexual harassment and misconduct by staffers. So 274 00:17:00,000 --> 00:17:03,280 Speaker 1: Earl Sandberg, the same woman who wrote a book telling 275 00:17:03,280 --> 00:17:07,000 Speaker 1: women to lean in to overcome the toxic sexist workplace 276 00:17:07,040 --> 00:17:10,280 Speaker 1: Boys Club and was branded the face of corporate feminism 277 00:17:10,320 --> 00:17:14,320 Speaker 1: for it was doing so while personally hurting women. I 278 00:17:14,320 --> 00:17:17,680 Speaker 1: think Cheryl Sandberg is such an interesting example because something 279 00:17:17,720 --> 00:17:19,560 Speaker 1: that I think is particular to her and some of 280 00:17:19,600 --> 00:17:21,600 Speaker 1: the other, you know, people that you think of as 281 00:17:21,680 --> 00:17:26,040 Speaker 1: girl bosses, is that, you know, when when people would 282 00:17:26,040 --> 00:17:29,240 Speaker 1: criticize Facebook and all the horrible things that was responsible 283 00:17:29,280 --> 00:17:34,520 Speaker 1: for globally, you know, genocide, disrupting democracies, all of those things. 284 00:17:35,080 --> 00:17:38,080 Speaker 1: I feel like Cheryl Sandberg was able to enjoy this 285 00:17:38,880 --> 00:17:44,400 Speaker 1: unearned vibe where because she's a woman, certainly she must 286 00:17:44,480 --> 00:17:46,800 Speaker 1: be the like mature adult in the room who is 287 00:17:46,840 --> 00:17:50,400 Speaker 1: trying to rein in the likes of like Mark Zuckerberg's 288 00:17:50,400 --> 00:17:52,399 Speaker 1: and the other tech bros. Like she's one of the 289 00:17:52,400 --> 00:17:54,800 Speaker 1: good ones. She's trying her best, and I think that 290 00:17:55,240 --> 00:17:57,919 Speaker 1: that and I see that also was like Ivanka Trump 291 00:17:58,000 --> 00:18:00,200 Speaker 1: that certainly she must be the voice of re in 292 00:18:00,480 --> 00:18:02,720 Speaker 1: who is trying to like rate in all the men 293 00:18:02,800 --> 00:18:05,359 Speaker 1: around who her, who are causing harm. And I feel 294 00:18:05,359 --> 00:18:10,760 Speaker 1: like they really used this unearned goodwill that came from 295 00:18:10,840 --> 00:18:15,399 Speaker 1: being women working in situations surrounded by powerful men to 296 00:18:15,600 --> 00:18:19,320 Speaker 1: excuse examination of a lot of their own behavior and 297 00:18:19,359 --> 00:18:22,040 Speaker 1: things that they were frankly really complicited. Like I know 298 00:18:22,080 --> 00:18:24,280 Speaker 1: for a fact that Cheryl Sandberg had a pretty big 299 00:18:24,320 --> 00:18:27,400 Speaker 1: hand in a lot of like harmful stuff that Facebook did, 300 00:18:27,640 --> 00:18:30,119 Speaker 1: harmful stuff that other tech companies did, Like when Cheryl 301 00:18:30,160 --> 00:18:34,040 Speaker 1: Sandberg was was in a relationship with Bobby Kotick, the 302 00:18:34,040 --> 00:18:41,520 Speaker 1: CEO of Activision Games, and actively helped create, actively helped 303 00:18:41,560 --> 00:18:46,880 Speaker 1: squash stories about his bad behavior, including like alleged sexual misconduct. 304 00:18:47,600 --> 00:18:50,760 Speaker 1: And so it's like that's that is you being complicit 305 00:18:50,960 --> 00:18:55,960 Speaker 1: in like behavior that hurts women and so just kind 306 00:18:56,000 --> 00:19:00,240 Speaker 1: of like letting that behavior go unchecked because or a 307 00:19:00,280 --> 00:19:02,840 Speaker 1: woman working in a male dominated environment, and of course 308 00:19:02,880 --> 00:19:05,600 Speaker 1: you've experienced sexism, which is not okay. I think they've 309 00:19:05,640 --> 00:19:08,200 Speaker 1: really been they were really savvy and using a lot 310 00:19:08,240 --> 00:19:10,159 Speaker 1: of the of what you were just talking about to 311 00:19:10,240 --> 00:19:16,840 Speaker 1: avoid critical looks at their own active bad behavior. Absolutely, 312 00:19:17,000 --> 00:19:20,199 Speaker 1: that's I don't hear that example brought up very much. 313 00:19:20,200 --> 00:19:22,640 Speaker 1: You're totally right, I kind of forget about that where 314 00:19:22,640 --> 00:19:26,040 Speaker 1: it's like, you know, at that point, she's actively oppressing 315 00:19:26,080 --> 00:19:29,720 Speaker 1: people and like women specifically about the you know, and 316 00:19:29,720 --> 00:19:34,080 Speaker 1: and her whole like her whole book, The whole idea 317 00:19:34,240 --> 00:19:37,800 Speaker 1: was like, you know, lean In is just like, well, 318 00:19:37,840 --> 00:19:41,600 Speaker 1: women aren't being paid like equally or treated well because 319 00:19:41,640 --> 00:19:45,520 Speaker 1: they haven't asked, which is like, it's just so wild 320 00:19:45,520 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: that that was a book that came out and was 321 00:19:47,200 --> 00:19:50,960 Speaker 1: like widely accepted as the truth ten years ago, where 322 00:19:51,000 --> 00:19:53,920 Speaker 1: she was just like, yeah, it just like literally has 323 00:19:53,960 --> 00:19:57,520 Speaker 1: not occurred to your boss to pay you equally, and 324 00:19:57,640 --> 00:19:59,800 Speaker 1: you just need to like buy a blazer and and 325 00:20:00,080 --> 00:20:03,880 Speaker 1: arch in there and say, guess what, buster I talk 326 00:20:04,000 --> 00:20:05,560 Speaker 1: to someone and you need to give me the right 327 00:20:05,600 --> 00:20:10,000 Speaker 1: amount of money, like and and that's not like completely 328 00:20:10,119 --> 00:20:13,879 Speaker 1: useless advice, but I feel like girl boss mentality takes 329 00:20:13,880 --> 00:20:17,920 Speaker 1: place in this void where systemic issues don't really exist, 330 00:20:18,480 --> 00:20:22,800 Speaker 1: or they do exist, but they are like they can 331 00:20:22,840 --> 00:20:29,159 Speaker 1: be surmounted by one person. Um, Yeah, I don't know. 332 00:20:29,280 --> 00:20:33,680 Speaker 1: It's like it's it's a nice I get why. It's 333 00:20:33,720 --> 00:20:36,080 Speaker 1: a nice kind of thing to buy into. And I 334 00:20:36,119 --> 00:20:40,800 Speaker 1: think for like it sounds like whatever, Like Cheryl Sandberg 335 00:20:40,880 --> 00:20:43,919 Speaker 1: is like a privilege sis white woman, so it it 336 00:20:44,080 --> 00:20:48,080 Speaker 1: is going to be easier for her to surmount um, 337 00:20:48,119 --> 00:20:50,359 Speaker 1: what's in front of her. But it just like is 338 00:20:51,160 --> 00:20:52,960 Speaker 1: I don't know, it's like this kind of like bummer 339 00:20:53,040 --> 00:20:56,360 Speaker 1: fantasy that you're It feels very like late two thousands 340 00:20:56,400 --> 00:20:58,840 Speaker 1: where you're like, yeah, I guess that that that makes 341 00:20:58,880 --> 00:21:02,080 Speaker 1: sense that everyone was so umped about that, but uh, 342 00:21:02,119 --> 00:21:05,840 Speaker 1: you know now we can't now Rovie Wade doesn't even exist. 343 00:21:05,960 --> 00:21:11,080 Speaker 1: So yeah, it's funny. It's wild. Yeah, it is wild, 344 00:21:11,119 --> 00:21:13,280 Speaker 1: And it's like it's it's so throwback he in a 345 00:21:13,359 --> 00:21:15,520 Speaker 1: kind of way because I just did a podcast episode 346 00:21:15,520 --> 00:21:18,239 Speaker 1: about um Lena Dunham and I was like looking at 347 00:21:18,280 --> 00:21:20,880 Speaker 1: like what was the cultural and political and social attitude 348 00:21:20,880 --> 00:21:26,399 Speaker 1: of like and it was a different time, like I 349 00:21:26,240 --> 00:21:27,840 Speaker 1: And it's funny. I go back and look at my 350 00:21:27,880 --> 00:21:31,240 Speaker 1: Facebook page back then and like I was definitely on 351 00:21:31,440 --> 00:21:36,560 Speaker 1: some like Beyonce Leslie No, like I like I really 352 00:21:36,880 --> 00:21:41,120 Speaker 1: I understand my my understanding of what being a feminist was, 353 00:21:42,000 --> 00:21:44,159 Speaker 1: it has really evolved. And I looked back then and 354 00:21:44,160 --> 00:21:46,800 Speaker 1: I'm like, yeah, I thought it was like slay queen, 355 00:21:47,240 --> 00:21:50,439 Speaker 1: like you know, like it wasn't very useful to me 356 00:21:50,600 --> 00:21:52,919 Speaker 1: or anybody around me, Like it felt good, and I 357 00:21:53,000 --> 00:21:56,440 Speaker 1: understand why. Yeah, it felt good, and I understand why 358 00:21:56,520 --> 00:21:59,440 Speaker 1: I gravitated toward and like I get it the same 359 00:21:59,440 --> 00:22:01,320 Speaker 1: way that like when someone's like just march in there 360 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:03,040 Speaker 1: and put on a blazer and tell your boss you 361 00:22:03,080 --> 00:22:07,399 Speaker 1: want pay equality, why that advice feels good even if 362 00:22:07,440 --> 00:22:10,080 Speaker 1: it's like, well, some things are institutionals, some things are systemic, 363 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,680 Speaker 1: Like you can't lean in individually, you know, you can't 364 00:22:13,760 --> 00:22:17,240 Speaker 1: lean in out of like something that's institutional. But yeah, 365 00:22:17,280 --> 00:22:21,760 Speaker 1: I just think that we really culturally we're on a 366 00:22:21,840 --> 00:22:26,199 Speaker 1: journey to figure out how feminism could be actually useful 367 00:22:26,200 --> 00:22:28,160 Speaker 1: in our lives, and like in what ways it maybe 368 00:22:28,160 --> 00:22:33,679 Speaker 1: wouldn't be so useful. Yeah, yeah, totally, gosh. I I 369 00:22:33,680 --> 00:22:35,560 Speaker 1: I feel like we we should there should be some 370 00:22:35,760 --> 00:22:40,359 Speaker 1: sort of like um empathetic reckoning around like the feminism 371 00:22:40,400 --> 00:22:43,359 Speaker 1: that existed ten years ago, because it's like embarrassing to 372 00:22:43,400 --> 00:22:45,520 Speaker 1: look back good for me, Like I look at like 373 00:22:45,560 --> 00:22:47,919 Speaker 1: I was like, oh, she was really trying, she was 374 00:22:47,920 --> 00:22:51,160 Speaker 1: really trying to figure stuff out. Uh. It was basically 375 00:22:51,240 --> 00:22:54,520 Speaker 1: a miss across the board. It was like a lot 376 00:22:54,600 --> 00:23:00,679 Speaker 1: of leslie Nope, a lot of like uh, I don't know, 377 00:23:00,800 --> 00:23:05,080 Speaker 1: like just that era where it definitely like had its 378 00:23:05,160 --> 00:23:08,520 Speaker 1: part and moving us forward. But you look back at it, 379 00:23:08,560 --> 00:23:12,280 Speaker 1: you're just like, man, what was what was I getting 380 00:23:12,320 --> 00:23:15,920 Speaker 1: at there? Um? And it's kind of a relief, I 381 00:23:15,960 --> 00:23:18,680 Speaker 1: don't know, to like look back ten years and be like, wow, 382 00:23:18,720 --> 00:23:23,320 Speaker 1: things really have moved forward, like considerably, because it's like 383 00:23:23,400 --> 00:23:27,879 Speaker 1: that it's like stuff that you'd barely recognize now. I 384 00:23:27,920 --> 00:23:30,360 Speaker 1: don't know, like it's or something that is like kind 385 00:23:30,359 --> 00:23:33,439 Speaker 1: of widely recognized as like this is fun and this 386 00:23:33,600 --> 00:23:36,800 Speaker 1: like feels nice, but this isn't like productive. But it 387 00:23:36,880 --> 00:23:39,440 Speaker 1: felt like we were really you know, doing something at 388 00:23:39,440 --> 00:23:43,639 Speaker 1: the time. Um, it really did. Like I guess I 389 00:23:43,680 --> 00:23:47,800 Speaker 1: thought like if only I bought enough notorious RBG crap 390 00:23:47,840 --> 00:23:50,600 Speaker 1: on Etsy that like we would really like we wouldn't 391 00:23:50,640 --> 00:23:55,440 Speaker 1: really get somewhere. Yeah. Yeah, And it's like all unethically 392 00:23:55,440 --> 00:23:57,680 Speaker 1: produced and just like stuff we weren't thinking about at all, 393 00:23:57,760 --> 00:24:03,120 Speaker 1: like it's just oh my god, yes, that notorious RBG. Look, 394 00:24:03,160 --> 00:24:07,040 Speaker 1: I I just last year had to finally like I've 395 00:24:07,119 --> 00:24:09,040 Speaker 1: kept like hiding it throughout my house, but like the 396 00:24:09,119 --> 00:24:14,040 Speaker 1: I'm with her, You're just like, Jamie, what or are 397 00:24:14,320 --> 00:24:20,800 Speaker 1: you doing? You're a socialist, get it together? What? Um 398 00:24:20,840 --> 00:24:23,080 Speaker 1: So I am? I am? You know, I'm glad that 399 00:24:23,119 --> 00:24:27,040 Speaker 1: we've moved forward with that. I was literally hiding it 400 00:24:27,119 --> 00:24:29,600 Speaker 1: like I was like it was I was like just 401 00:24:29,600 --> 00:24:32,280 Speaker 1: just I don't know, and then if that's the kind 402 00:24:32,320 --> 00:24:34,760 Speaker 1: of thing, not me explaining what I did with my 403 00:24:34,840 --> 00:24:37,040 Speaker 1: Hillary Clinton tank top. But I'm like, you can't really 404 00:24:37,040 --> 00:24:39,560 Speaker 1: donate this. No one wants this, right, I don't, but 405 00:24:39,640 --> 00:24:41,560 Speaker 1: I donate it and maybe they lit it on fire. 406 00:24:41,600 --> 00:24:47,320 Speaker 1: I don't know, but um just wild stuff. And even 407 00:24:47,400 --> 00:24:51,119 Speaker 1: like in terms of like being able to speak on 408 00:24:51,200 --> 00:24:54,399 Speaker 1: harassment and abuse, like this time ten years ago because 409 00:24:54,520 --> 00:24:57,200 Speaker 1: I was in uh, I was in college ten years 410 00:24:57,240 --> 00:25:02,360 Speaker 1: ago and there was like no public DISCUSSI around harassment 411 00:25:02,600 --> 00:25:05,200 Speaker 1: and like it just I don't know, things have really 412 00:25:05,760 --> 00:25:08,400 Speaker 1: changed a lot, and it's like we actively live in hell, 413 00:25:08,480 --> 00:25:11,159 Speaker 1: but I try to remember, like we know how to 414 00:25:11,200 --> 00:25:13,600 Speaker 1: talk to each other about living in hell now, which 415 00:25:13,600 --> 00:25:16,720 Speaker 1: is kind of um, I don't know, maybe that's like 416 00:25:17,960 --> 00:25:20,399 Speaker 1: very little comfort, but it is. It does feel like 417 00:25:20,440 --> 00:25:24,240 Speaker 1: an improvement. It does. And I was just thinking about 418 00:25:24,240 --> 00:25:26,240 Speaker 1: this when I was prepping to speak with you today, 419 00:25:26,280 --> 00:25:30,600 Speaker 1: Like I do feel like most people have like, unless 420 00:25:30,600 --> 00:25:33,440 Speaker 1: you're like deep in an MLM, I feel like most 421 00:25:33,440 --> 00:25:35,560 Speaker 1: people have been like, Okay, maybe the girl Boss era 422 00:25:36,080 --> 00:25:38,120 Speaker 1: was not super helpful, and we've kind of like left. 423 00:25:38,119 --> 00:25:40,600 Speaker 1: I feel like we've kind of moved. A lot of 424 00:25:40,640 --> 00:25:44,400 Speaker 1: us have moved beyond girl boss hustle grind culture, and 425 00:25:44,440 --> 00:25:45,560 Speaker 1: I think I see, you know a lot of the 426 00:25:45,560 --> 00:25:48,119 Speaker 1: ways that like all these people that we think of 427 00:25:48,160 --> 00:25:51,280 Speaker 1: as like o G girl Boss is, Cheryl Sandberg, Elizabeth 428 00:25:51,320 --> 00:25:54,600 Speaker 1: homes Sofia Almarrosso, they have all kind of I don't 429 00:25:54,600 --> 00:25:57,240 Speaker 1: want to say, like had their downfalls, but they've they've 430 00:25:57,920 --> 00:26:02,560 Speaker 1: they're no longer a prominent part of the public conversation anymore. 431 00:26:02,600 --> 00:26:04,080 Speaker 1: And I wonder, like, what do you think that means 432 00:26:04,119 --> 00:26:06,920 Speaker 1: that so many of the O G girl bosses are 433 00:26:07,000 --> 00:26:11,600 Speaker 1: now kind of fading from notoriety. And Elizabeth Holmes might 434 00:26:11,640 --> 00:26:14,560 Speaker 1: be going to jail, So you know, there's that I 435 00:26:14,840 --> 00:26:18,639 Speaker 1: sometimes I forget she's not in jail, which is, um, god, 436 00:26:18,720 --> 00:26:24,840 Speaker 1: the age of Coachella is is so fascinating. Uh I 437 00:26:25,119 --> 00:26:28,720 Speaker 1: just what can I say? Um? Okay, So I mean 438 00:26:29,119 --> 00:26:32,320 Speaker 1: I don't know. I I honestly like I got so 439 00:26:32,960 --> 00:26:37,439 Speaker 1: um burnt out on girl Boss culture and doing that 440 00:26:37,480 --> 00:26:43,080 Speaker 1: show that I haven't really tracked very carefully, like what 441 00:26:43,160 --> 00:26:45,679 Speaker 1: the followed of that is, because I do like again 442 00:26:45,880 --> 00:26:49,919 Speaker 1: doing that, even doing that like dinky little show that 443 00:26:50,000 --> 00:26:51,800 Speaker 1: I loved doing. But it's like, you know, I was 444 00:26:52,040 --> 00:26:55,679 Speaker 1: performing that show in a storage unit in Scotland for 445 00:26:55,720 --> 00:26:57,880 Speaker 1: a month, so you know, you're like it's like you're 446 00:26:57,920 --> 00:26:59,680 Speaker 1: seeing a hundred people at night, but there, and and 447 00:26:59,800 --> 00:27:02,000 Speaker 1: but there were some people that would you know, come 448 00:27:02,080 --> 00:27:04,919 Speaker 1: up to me after that show who genuinely were like, 449 00:27:05,480 --> 00:27:08,320 Speaker 1: you know, I really enjoyed it, and but like their 450 00:27:08,359 --> 00:27:12,960 Speaker 1: takeaway was like women in power are disingenuous, and You're like, well, 451 00:27:13,040 --> 00:27:18,120 Speaker 1: that is I think the little bit of danger that's 452 00:27:18,160 --> 00:27:23,119 Speaker 1: introduced by the girl Boss um criticism and sort of 453 00:27:23,160 --> 00:27:25,880 Speaker 1: that wave that I feel like is also dying now. 454 00:27:25,920 --> 00:27:28,560 Speaker 1: It is just like the gigantic amount of media and 455 00:27:28,600 --> 00:27:30,840 Speaker 1: now it's like the girl Boss is kind of a 456 00:27:30,840 --> 00:27:33,600 Speaker 1: stock character that people are getting sick of because like 457 00:27:33,640 --> 00:27:36,720 Speaker 1: you're saying, they're kind of fading from um the public. 458 00:27:36,960 --> 00:27:41,600 Speaker 1: I UM. But I think, like, I think it's it's 459 00:27:41,640 --> 00:27:46,880 Speaker 1: good that like women who are you know, it's taking 460 00:27:46,880 --> 00:27:50,280 Speaker 1: on the language of feminists and the tools of uh 461 00:27:50,920 --> 00:27:55,960 Speaker 1: oppressors like that that is something that is like completely 462 00:27:56,040 --> 00:28:01,480 Speaker 1: acceptable and normal to to be able to call out um. 463 00:28:01,520 --> 00:28:04,840 Speaker 1: And I think that that makes room for a lot 464 00:28:04,920 --> 00:28:08,560 Speaker 1: more of I mean, I think that makes room and 465 00:28:08,600 --> 00:28:11,639 Speaker 1: sets a standard for just like leaders in general of 466 00:28:11,760 --> 00:28:17,760 Speaker 1: like you can't just throw your uh like your womanhood 467 00:28:17,800 --> 00:28:19,920 Speaker 1: in my face and say that this shield do from 468 00:28:19,960 --> 00:28:22,640 Speaker 1: critique and that's like not okay, and it's publicly kind 469 00:28:22,640 --> 00:28:25,480 Speaker 1: of accepted that that's not okay. And then the other 470 00:28:25,560 --> 00:28:31,680 Speaker 1: side of that, I feel like is still like misogyny 471 00:28:31,880 --> 00:28:35,960 Speaker 1: still alive. And well I'm wondering, like, has the Girl 472 00:28:36,040 --> 00:28:39,520 Speaker 1: Boss era and and all the very valid critique that's 473 00:28:39,560 --> 00:28:43,440 Speaker 1: been made of women like this, have other women come 474 00:28:43,480 --> 00:28:47,720 Speaker 1: into power in their stead? Have people been more like 475 00:28:47,880 --> 00:28:51,640 Speaker 1: and has it been diverse at all? Like or is 476 00:28:51,640 --> 00:28:55,400 Speaker 1: it just kind of another crop of white women who 477 00:28:55,440 --> 00:28:57,960 Speaker 1: are like learning like, oh, I can't do that, I 478 00:28:58,000 --> 00:29:00,160 Speaker 1: can't do that, I can't do that. But here's how 479 00:29:00,160 --> 00:29:03,840 Speaker 1: I'm going to kind of innovate, leveraging the tools of 480 00:29:03,920 --> 00:29:07,200 Speaker 1: oppressors against other people. I don't know, I don't feel 481 00:29:07,240 --> 00:29:10,080 Speaker 1: optimistic about it. I guess, yeah, that's something that I 482 00:29:10,120 --> 00:29:14,440 Speaker 1: really struggle with. It's like I definitely see the vibe 483 00:29:14,480 --> 00:29:18,320 Speaker 1: of like people thinking that critiques of Girl Boss means that, 484 00:29:18,440 --> 00:29:21,320 Speaker 1: like you're critiquing any woman in power, that oh, yeah, 485 00:29:21,360 --> 00:29:24,280 Speaker 1: women who have power are disingenuous, they're awful, we should 486 00:29:24,280 --> 00:29:26,360 Speaker 1: critique them, when that's not really what you're saying. And 487 00:29:26,080 --> 00:29:28,120 Speaker 1: I do I want to because I think it's so 488 00:29:28,160 --> 00:29:32,560 Speaker 1: easy for critiques of women with power to just veer 489 00:29:32,680 --> 00:29:36,360 Speaker 1: into being grounded in sexism and misogyny, because like our 490 00:29:37,480 --> 00:29:41,000 Speaker 1: should not hold power exactly right. But like I also 491 00:29:41,040 --> 00:29:45,120 Speaker 1: think that, like, you know, I think that like leaving 492 00:29:45,160 --> 00:29:49,400 Speaker 1: behind this sort of disingenuous girl Boss vibe, at least 493 00:29:49,400 --> 00:29:51,840 Speaker 1: for in my own life, Like I think of myself 494 00:29:51,840 --> 00:29:54,120 Speaker 1: as an entrepreneur, even though like I'm pretty shitty at it, 495 00:29:54,200 --> 00:29:57,000 Speaker 1: but I think it maybe can open up room for 496 00:29:57,960 --> 00:30:03,360 Speaker 1: I mean, you're trying my best, But I used to 497 00:30:03,360 --> 00:30:05,080 Speaker 1: think that I had to be a certain kind of 498 00:30:05,120 --> 00:30:08,440 Speaker 1: woman to be a successful entrepreneur. And now I'm realizing 499 00:30:08,640 --> 00:30:13,240 Speaker 1: that all of those like very narrow um like ways 500 00:30:13,280 --> 00:30:15,720 Speaker 1: of thinking we're not serving me. And what I really 501 00:30:15,720 --> 00:30:17,760 Speaker 1: need to be thinking about is like making room for 502 00:30:18,000 --> 00:30:20,600 Speaker 1: leadership that feels good, it is aligned with who I 503 00:30:20,640 --> 00:30:23,719 Speaker 1: am and my own values and in like figuring out 504 00:30:23,760 --> 00:30:27,080 Speaker 1: ways that I can lead in ways that make me 505 00:30:27,160 --> 00:30:30,480 Speaker 1: feel good, get the work done, and uphold my values 506 00:30:30,520 --> 00:30:32,160 Speaker 1: of how I want to treat people, and that like 507 00:30:32,960 --> 00:30:38,640 Speaker 1: it's like having those be like very narrow, narrowly defined 508 00:30:38,760 --> 00:30:41,680 Speaker 1: by gender is not useful to me. I don't really 509 00:30:41,680 --> 00:30:43,600 Speaker 1: think it's useful to anybody, And like we have the 510 00:30:43,600 --> 00:30:45,920 Speaker 1: the challenge is finding out like how we lead with 511 00:30:45,960 --> 00:30:49,440 Speaker 1: our values and not how we lead along like very 512 00:30:49,560 --> 00:30:55,880 Speaker 1: narrow buzzwords like girl boss. I love that, Yes, I totally, 513 00:30:55,960 --> 00:30:58,840 Speaker 1: I totally agree, And I hope that that is like 514 00:30:59,840 --> 00:31:02,240 Speaker 1: I hope more. I hope I just want more people 515 00:31:02,280 --> 00:31:05,160 Speaker 1: to be like you rid it. I uh yeah, I 516 00:31:05,200 --> 00:31:08,920 Speaker 1: mean it's like yeah, like leading with your values and 517 00:31:09,120 --> 00:31:13,120 Speaker 1: like I mean because I don't know, like I funk up, 518 00:31:13,160 --> 00:31:16,000 Speaker 1: like no one is going to be perfect a hundred 519 00:31:16,040 --> 00:31:17,560 Speaker 1: percent of the time, which I feel like also was 520 00:31:17,600 --> 00:31:19,800 Speaker 1: kind of a part of the girl boss Eto was like, 521 00:31:20,600 --> 00:31:25,280 Speaker 1: there is no margin for error. Um, but like yeah, 522 00:31:25,560 --> 00:31:29,080 Speaker 1: just taking out look like an honest like at what 523 00:31:29,120 --> 00:31:32,880 Speaker 1: you're doing, and like just cut checking yourself. I try to. 524 00:31:32,920 --> 00:31:34,680 Speaker 1: I try to do that as much as possible, where 525 00:31:34,720 --> 00:31:38,720 Speaker 1: you're just like, Okay, who is this for? Like does 526 00:31:38,800 --> 00:31:41,360 Speaker 1: this have a purpose? And sometimes if the answer is 527 00:31:41,400 --> 00:31:44,800 Speaker 1: just like this is just a goofy weird thing I 528 00:31:44,880 --> 00:31:47,440 Speaker 1: want to do, I'm like, Okay, well that's not hurting anyone. 529 00:31:47,560 --> 00:31:50,800 Speaker 1: I didn't do it. But yeah, just like gut checking 530 00:31:51,120 --> 00:31:54,120 Speaker 1: the potential impact of stuff you do, which is like 531 00:31:54,880 --> 00:32:00,920 Speaker 1: I feel like that's more becoming auh, like go to 532 00:32:01,320 --> 00:32:04,000 Speaker 1: question for not just people making stuff, but people who 533 00:32:04,080 --> 00:32:07,280 Speaker 1: consume stuff as well, which I think is good. I 534 00:32:07,400 --> 00:32:23,120 Speaker 1: like it more. After a quick break, let's get right 535 00:32:23,160 --> 00:32:26,880 Speaker 1: back into it. Cheryl Sandberg left Facebook back in June, 536 00:32:27,200 --> 00:32:30,320 Speaker 1: and she left with barely a blip when compared to 537 00:32:30,320 --> 00:32:34,440 Speaker 1: the splashy fanfare that accompanied her hiring a Facebook, her books, 538 00:32:34,840 --> 00:32:39,840 Speaker 1: and her successful branding as a capital w working woman. 539 00:32:40,600 --> 00:32:42,640 Speaker 1: We saw the same thing with other girl boss types 540 00:32:43,160 --> 00:32:47,080 Speaker 1: like Sophia Amarossa and man Repellers Landrumadine, who all left 541 00:32:47,120 --> 00:32:50,360 Speaker 1: their companies. So is the era of the Girl Boss 542 00:32:50,400 --> 00:32:54,720 Speaker 1: officially dead, and if so, what comes next? During those 543 00:32:55,000 --> 00:32:58,840 Speaker 1: especially tough years early on in the pandemic, I saw 544 00:32:58,920 --> 00:33:01,640 Speaker 1: so many women turn to aesthetics like the that girl 545 00:33:01,680 --> 00:33:05,720 Speaker 1: aesthetic that prizes self care and wellness, or at least 546 00:33:05,720 --> 00:33:08,840 Speaker 1: the idea of it. But will an aesthetic ever really 547 00:33:08,840 --> 00:33:11,400 Speaker 1: be the thing that saves us? Will the revolution come? 548 00:33:11,520 --> 00:33:15,480 Speaker 1: And imagine workout set looking onto the horizon. Now that 549 00:33:15,520 --> 00:33:18,160 Speaker 1: we're sort of moving away from Girl Boss, what do 550 00:33:18,200 --> 00:33:20,640 Speaker 1: you think do you think there's an ethos that might 551 00:33:20,680 --> 00:33:22,720 Speaker 1: replace it? And is there a way that that ethos 552 00:33:22,840 --> 00:33:25,880 Speaker 1: might be, you know, not something that is just sort 553 00:33:25,880 --> 00:33:29,000 Speaker 1: of buzzwordy and co OPTI because now that we're all 554 00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,239 Speaker 1: kind of like being like, okay, hustle grind is not? 555 00:33:32,280 --> 00:33:34,800 Speaker 1: Maybe is not? Maybe the move? Um, I see all 556 00:33:34,840 --> 00:33:37,680 Speaker 1: of these things like oh, like paying lots and lots 557 00:33:37,720 --> 00:33:40,560 Speaker 1: of money for the idea of self care or like 558 00:33:40,920 --> 00:33:43,640 Speaker 1: you know, the on TikTok, like the quote that girl 559 00:33:43,680 --> 00:33:47,760 Speaker 1: aesthetic or like the slow life aesthetic. I guess I 560 00:33:47,880 --> 00:33:52,440 Speaker 1: like that those are coming into style, I guess, but 561 00:33:52,480 --> 00:33:55,720 Speaker 1: I still wonder if like it's just another kind of 562 00:33:56,320 --> 00:33:59,800 Speaker 1: buzzworthy thing that will be co opted and ultimately you 563 00:34:00,160 --> 00:34:02,920 Speaker 1: to like further marginalize us or further harm us. Like 564 00:34:02,960 --> 00:34:05,440 Speaker 1: I feel like, do you think there's a way that 565 00:34:05,480 --> 00:34:09,120 Speaker 1: we could expect better from these ethos that like that 566 00:34:09,160 --> 00:34:14,359 Speaker 1: they might actually serve us? Yeah, I mean, I I 567 00:34:14,400 --> 00:34:17,759 Speaker 1: feel like as much as is possible, like it's just 568 00:34:20,600 --> 00:34:24,160 Speaker 1: talking to people in real life and like having conversations 569 00:34:24,320 --> 00:34:29,399 Speaker 1: outside of the Internet, like which again, ten years ago, 570 00:34:29,560 --> 00:34:34,000 Speaker 1: I really felt like, you know, feminism and like all 571 00:34:34,040 --> 00:34:38,400 Speaker 1: of these like systemic problems that I did not have 572 00:34:38,600 --> 00:34:41,360 Speaker 1: really much understanding of at the time, Like this is 573 00:34:41,400 --> 00:34:44,239 Speaker 1: going to be something that's going to be worked out 574 00:34:44,640 --> 00:34:46,920 Speaker 1: on the internet, and the Internet is a useful tool 575 00:34:47,440 --> 00:34:51,440 Speaker 1: for this stuff. I don't like, I don't know, I 576 00:34:51,480 --> 00:34:54,239 Speaker 1: feel like a little differently right now where I feel 577 00:34:54,239 --> 00:34:57,760 Speaker 1: like obviously there is like incredible community building that happens 578 00:34:57,760 --> 00:34:59,560 Speaker 1: on the Internet, and I don't want to like take 579 00:34:59,600 --> 00:35:03,400 Speaker 1: away for or be reductive of of online communities, but 580 00:35:03,480 --> 00:35:06,960 Speaker 1: I feel like, yeah, for me, I like sometimes when 581 00:35:07,760 --> 00:35:10,440 Speaker 1: your algorithm is like feeding you certain stuff and you're 582 00:35:10,480 --> 00:35:13,120 Speaker 1: like you're like, I mean, I felt I I resisted 583 00:35:13,840 --> 00:35:18,400 Speaker 1: the skincare, like you have to spend hundreds of dollars 584 00:35:18,400 --> 00:35:22,319 Speaker 1: on skincare or you don't love yourself. Um kind of 585 00:35:22,480 --> 00:35:27,520 Speaker 1: vibe for years, but then finally during lockdown, I caved 586 00:35:27,760 --> 00:35:31,160 Speaker 1: and I like got a bunch of goopy not actual group, 587 00:35:31,280 --> 00:35:34,759 Speaker 1: but like I bought a bunch of sauces, and you know, 588 00:35:34,800 --> 00:35:39,560 Speaker 1: it's like now I love myself, which you know not true, um, 589 00:35:39,600 --> 00:35:42,640 Speaker 1: and I feel like, yeah, it's just talking with my 590 00:35:42,760 --> 00:35:47,760 Speaker 1: actual friends in real life. I feel like usually clarifies 591 00:35:48,840 --> 00:35:51,719 Speaker 1: a lot of stuff really quickly in a way that 592 00:35:51,760 --> 00:35:56,239 Speaker 1: I find really comforting and uh, life affirming because it's 593 00:35:56,239 --> 00:36:00,600 Speaker 1: so easy for I mean for me, I'm like also, um, 594 00:36:00,680 --> 00:36:02,759 Speaker 1: when it comes to things that are praying on my 595 00:36:02,800 --> 00:36:07,879 Speaker 1: self esteem, I'm extremely gullible and so stuff like that, 596 00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:11,799 Speaker 1: Like I am very, very susceptible to fall for no 597 00:36:11,840 --> 00:36:14,879 Speaker 1: matter how that's I mean, which is kind of like, 598 00:36:15,600 --> 00:36:18,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, I wonder what you're kind of opinion 599 00:36:18,880 --> 00:36:21,160 Speaker 1: is on this stuff, because it's like I get so 600 00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,280 Speaker 1: annoyed with myself because I'm like, wow, I like spend 601 00:36:24,360 --> 00:36:28,839 Speaker 1: so much time trying to like understand how these things work, 602 00:36:28,880 --> 00:36:32,120 Speaker 1: and I still when it preys on my self esteem specifically, 603 00:36:32,160 --> 00:36:34,439 Speaker 1: I fall for it immediately, and I'm like, oh, my god. Yes, 604 00:36:34,520 --> 00:36:38,439 Speaker 1: I'm horrible. Wait, I'm bad. I should I should buy 605 00:36:38,480 --> 00:36:42,759 Speaker 1: this product? Um? So I just need to Yeah, like 606 00:36:42,880 --> 00:36:48,600 Speaker 1: gut checking with a real life community and just talking 607 00:36:48,640 --> 00:36:53,480 Speaker 1: to each other outside of like algorithmically dictated conversations. UM 608 00:36:53,719 --> 00:36:58,759 Speaker 1: feels like what's been helpful for me? Oh, I feel 609 00:36:58,800 --> 00:37:03,359 Speaker 1: the exact same way, especially during COVID like lockdown. I 610 00:37:03,360 --> 00:37:05,520 Speaker 1: I can't tell you. I would be ashamed if I 611 00:37:05,520 --> 00:37:06,960 Speaker 1: if I could tabulate it all up, I would be 612 00:37:07,000 --> 00:37:09,040 Speaker 1: ashamed to tell you how much money I spent on 613 00:37:09,120 --> 00:37:13,400 Speaker 1: like matching workout sets, yoga stuff, skincare, green juice. Is 614 00:37:13,480 --> 00:37:16,400 Speaker 1: Like I just really was like I understood that I 615 00:37:16,440 --> 00:37:18,759 Speaker 1: was not happy, and I mean who was happy? And 616 00:37:18,880 --> 00:37:21,320 Speaker 1: during you know when COVID first sounds like who was 617 00:37:21,320 --> 00:37:24,040 Speaker 1: happy during that time? But I understood that I wasn't happy, 618 00:37:24,120 --> 00:37:28,040 Speaker 1: and I was trying to fill that void of unhappiness 619 00:37:28,320 --> 00:37:31,480 Speaker 1: with more crap that had been targeted to me on Instagram. 620 00:37:31,680 --> 00:37:34,480 Speaker 1: And for a while, it like really was like almost pathological, 621 00:37:34,600 --> 00:37:37,160 Speaker 1: Like I would see a picture of a woman, you know, 622 00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:39,680 Speaker 1: doing her daily routine and it looks so great, and 623 00:37:39,680 --> 00:37:41,439 Speaker 1: it was like I have to buy everything that she has, 624 00:37:41,480 --> 00:37:44,040 Speaker 1: and maybe that will make me happy. And it really 625 00:37:44,080 --> 00:37:47,360 Speaker 1: was just like, yeah, I'm in I'm in Lockdown, COVID 626 00:37:47,480 --> 00:37:51,239 Speaker 1: is happening, I'm miserable like everybody else, and I need 627 00:37:51,280 --> 00:37:53,440 Speaker 1: to like nothing I can buy is going to fix that. 628 00:37:53,520 --> 00:37:56,640 Speaker 1: Like I had to like like actively work to turn 629 00:37:56,760 --> 00:37:59,560 Speaker 1: off whatever was in my brain that would make me hit. 630 00:38:00,040 --> 00:38:03,840 Speaker 1: I when I saw a targeted, you know, algorithmically generated 631 00:38:03,880 --> 00:38:07,360 Speaker 1: Instagram ad for something that was promising me this promise 632 00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:11,279 Speaker 1: of having a happy, fulfilled, wholesome life that I was 633 00:38:11,320 --> 00:38:16,400 Speaker 1: so yearning for. Mhm. Absolutely. And it's like and also 634 00:38:16,440 --> 00:38:20,520 Speaker 1: it's like looking back on that, you're like, how lucky 635 00:38:20,640 --> 00:38:22,759 Speaker 1: were we that we got to like sit at home 636 00:38:22,880 --> 00:38:26,800 Speaker 1: and obsess about stuff like that, because like everyone's experience 637 00:38:26,800 --> 00:38:32,440 Speaker 1: of Lockdown was so wildly different. And yeah, I it's 638 00:38:33,320 --> 00:38:40,680 Speaker 1: I don't know, I I it's mind fuck And I 639 00:38:40,719 --> 00:38:44,160 Speaker 1: look back at like times like that and times like that, 640 00:38:44,280 --> 00:38:48,719 Speaker 1: literally the end of the world, times like that, the plague, um, 641 00:38:48,760 --> 00:38:52,720 Speaker 1: and I feel like it feels almost like a different 642 00:38:52,760 --> 00:38:57,320 Speaker 1: person and that was like us two years ago. Um, 643 00:38:57,360 --> 00:39:01,279 Speaker 1: It's just yeah, it's wild. It is wild, and I'm 644 00:39:01,320 --> 00:39:04,520 Speaker 1: I'm happy that we're able to have conversations about how 645 00:39:04,640 --> 00:39:09,640 Speaker 1: we can get someplace more meaningful, meaningfully productive, I guess, 646 00:39:09,640 --> 00:39:15,000 Speaker 1: and not just rely on algorithms and buying crap and 647 00:39:15,440 --> 00:39:19,960 Speaker 1: buzzwords that will ultimately get us, I think, further away 648 00:39:20,120 --> 00:39:23,440 Speaker 1: from where we want to be. Yeah. Yeah, and just 649 00:39:23,560 --> 00:39:26,960 Speaker 1: like I don't know, like yeah, and I think like 650 00:39:27,120 --> 00:39:32,840 Speaker 1: just trying to have empathy for each other and like talking, 651 00:39:32,920 --> 00:39:40,440 Speaker 1: I don't know, like I have found a lot of um, 652 00:39:40,480 --> 00:39:42,880 Speaker 1: I guess, like just like a lot of comfort and 653 00:39:43,719 --> 00:39:46,840 Speaker 1: um it feels like, you know, a productive discussion, but 654 00:39:46,880 --> 00:39:49,120 Speaker 1: also it's like not every discussion has to be productive. 655 00:39:49,160 --> 00:39:52,520 Speaker 1: Sometimes we can just talk and like that's great too. Um, 656 00:39:52,560 --> 00:39:57,400 Speaker 1: But the like incredible pressure and stress there is right 657 00:39:57,440 --> 00:39:59,959 Speaker 1: now to understand everything that's going on all the time. 658 00:40:00,040 --> 00:40:04,560 Speaker 1: Him and I feel like it's like with during the 659 00:40:04,600 --> 00:40:07,960 Speaker 1: Girl Boss era, the pressure was very much like you 660 00:40:08,040 --> 00:40:10,560 Speaker 1: need to I'm kind of thinking of the like Ga 661 00:40:10,600 --> 00:40:14,960 Speaker 1: Talentino essay about like optimizing yourself as a woman and 662 00:40:15,040 --> 00:40:18,560 Speaker 1: becoming like the optimal woman and everything you do is 663 00:40:19,000 --> 00:40:23,200 Speaker 1: productive and and serving this higher purpose of like moving 664 00:40:23,239 --> 00:40:26,239 Speaker 1: forward in the world. Um. And even as sort of 665 00:40:26,280 --> 00:40:32,279 Speaker 1: that has become less of a popular mindset, even though 666 00:40:32,320 --> 00:40:36,719 Speaker 1: it's definitely not gone, um, because you know, capitalism is 667 00:40:36,760 --> 00:40:40,120 Speaker 1: still a thing. Um. I feel like there's kind of 668 00:40:40,120 --> 00:40:43,880 Speaker 1: a flip side of that, where you know, the world 669 00:40:44,000 --> 00:40:48,600 Speaker 1: is like metaphorically and actually on fire and there's so 670 00:40:48,640 --> 00:40:51,200 Speaker 1: many things going on and that there's like this pressure 671 00:40:52,000 --> 00:40:55,000 Speaker 1: that is like reinforced by the Internet to like know 672 00:40:55,120 --> 00:41:00,280 Speaker 1: exactly what's going on, have a completely well articulated idea 673 00:41:00,440 --> 00:41:03,440 Speaker 1: about it, like a plan of action, like all of 674 00:41:03,440 --> 00:41:07,400 Speaker 1: this stuff for like five hundreds like just there. It's impossible, 675 00:41:07,480 --> 00:41:10,520 Speaker 1: and I feel like being able to talk to people 676 00:41:10,560 --> 00:41:14,440 Speaker 1: about the the existential stress of that without you know, 677 00:41:14,719 --> 00:41:17,799 Speaker 1: going towards like nihilism and not being like, well, I'm 678 00:41:17,840 --> 00:41:19,760 Speaker 1: not going to do anything, but just like talking about 679 00:41:20,480 --> 00:41:22,800 Speaker 1: just being more comfortable. I don't know, I'm trying to 680 00:41:22,840 --> 00:41:27,799 Speaker 1: be more comfortable saying like I don't know, um, or 681 00:41:27,840 --> 00:41:31,040 Speaker 1: like I don't know much about that, or did am 682 00:41:31,040 --> 00:41:33,759 Speaker 1: I making sense? I don't know? Like oh absolutely, like 683 00:41:34,160 --> 00:41:36,759 Speaker 1: giving yourself space to be like I'm still working on 684 00:41:36,800 --> 00:41:38,839 Speaker 1: that or like we'll see or I'm not sure, like 685 00:41:39,160 --> 00:41:41,400 Speaker 1: not every kind of like we I do think that 686 00:41:41,440 --> 00:41:43,480 Speaker 1: we have like the Internet has given us this pressure 687 00:41:43,480 --> 00:41:45,200 Speaker 1: to be experts and everything, and they have it all 688 00:41:45,200 --> 00:41:48,319 Speaker 1: figured out, and we should really be pushing back by 689 00:41:48,320 --> 00:41:51,880 Speaker 1: giving us giving ourselves space in grace to be you know, 690 00:41:52,040 --> 00:41:54,040 Speaker 1: not experts and not have it all figured out and 691 00:41:54,080 --> 00:41:57,719 Speaker 1: not have a good action plan. And that's okay too, right, 692 00:41:58,000 --> 00:42:01,560 Speaker 1: or just like yeah, with some stuff, it's like, oh, 693 00:42:01,680 --> 00:42:03,520 Speaker 1: I don't I mean, right now, I'm thinking of the 694 00:42:03,640 --> 00:42:06,080 Speaker 1: January sex hearings because of when we're recording this. But 695 00:42:06,120 --> 00:42:08,040 Speaker 1: like I'm like, I don't have a strong opinion on 696 00:42:08,120 --> 00:42:11,319 Speaker 1: that because I haven't watched it yet. I will get 697 00:42:11,360 --> 00:42:14,040 Speaker 1: her out, I will do it. There's there's just been 698 00:42:14,120 --> 00:42:18,960 Speaker 1: other existentially looming issues on my mind. I haven't gotten 699 00:42:18,960 --> 00:42:22,680 Speaker 1: to that one yet, And um, I don't, like I 700 00:42:22,719 --> 00:42:26,120 Speaker 1: don't want to. I don't feel embarrassed or in shamed 701 00:42:26,200 --> 00:42:30,560 Speaker 1: that I didn't, you know, watch the five. Like how 702 00:42:30,560 --> 00:42:36,040 Speaker 1: many Trials of the Year have aired on television this year? Um, yeah, 703 00:42:36,719 --> 00:42:39,479 Speaker 1: I guess I don't know if that makes any sense, 704 00:42:39,480 --> 00:42:41,880 Speaker 1: but like, yeah, I just and I feel like usually 705 00:42:41,960 --> 00:42:47,000 Speaker 1: when you're you say something like that, there's you know 706 00:42:47,719 --> 00:42:50,280 Speaker 1: a couple of people who will be like, oh, okay, 707 00:42:50,280 --> 00:42:55,000 Speaker 1: cool me either, not I because it's impossible. It's like, 708 00:42:55,040 --> 00:42:57,040 Speaker 1: I mean, for some people I mean, I know that 709 00:42:57,080 --> 00:42:59,480 Speaker 1: there's a select few that are just like extremely good 710 00:42:59,520 --> 00:43:02,440 Speaker 1: at staying on top of stuff, but it's it's impossible 711 00:43:02,600 --> 00:43:07,640 Speaker 1: to be a person um that and um be completely 712 00:43:07,640 --> 00:43:10,160 Speaker 1: on top of everything all the time. It doesn't you know, 713 00:43:10,320 --> 00:43:14,479 Speaker 1: Like the attempt I think is important and we should 714 00:43:14,560 --> 00:43:17,759 Speaker 1: know as much as we can, um, But the whole 715 00:43:17,800 --> 00:43:20,480 Speaker 1: idea of like curation and like not only do I 716 00:43:20,520 --> 00:43:22,200 Speaker 1: need to know everything, but I need to be able 717 00:43:22,239 --> 00:43:26,520 Speaker 1: to speak to it in the most Like it's like, Okay, 718 00:43:26,719 --> 00:43:28,440 Speaker 1: give yourself a little bit of space, give yourself a 719 00:43:28,480 --> 00:43:32,320 Speaker 1: little bit of time. The world will still be ending tomorrow. 720 00:43:32,760 --> 00:43:35,120 Speaker 1: I have a good friend of mine who has done 721 00:43:35,120 --> 00:43:37,880 Speaker 1: a lot of work in like active war zones, and 722 00:43:37,920 --> 00:43:39,520 Speaker 1: one of the things that she says is to keep 723 00:43:39,520 --> 00:43:42,840 Speaker 1: your peace, you have to limit the amount of news 724 00:43:42,960 --> 00:43:46,240 Speaker 1: that you consume, that you actively consume and just trust 725 00:43:46,719 --> 00:43:49,600 Speaker 1: that you if it's something big that you really need 726 00:43:49,600 --> 00:43:51,719 Speaker 1: to have on your radar, it will find itself to you. 727 00:43:51,800 --> 00:43:53,680 Speaker 1: Because that's because it will, Like if there's something that 728 00:43:53,719 --> 00:43:57,719 Speaker 1: you actually need to be like knowing every minute detail 729 00:43:57,960 --> 00:44:02,480 Speaker 1: of each January six mission, hearing all the major players 730 00:44:02,520 --> 00:44:04,440 Speaker 1: that won't bring you peace and it actually might not 731 00:44:04,480 --> 00:44:07,080 Speaker 1: even make you better informed. It will definitely make you anxious, 732 00:44:07,080 --> 00:44:08,480 Speaker 1: and it might even give you up at night. And 733 00:44:08,520 --> 00:44:11,680 Speaker 1: so just knowing that like the broad strokes, just trusting 734 00:44:11,719 --> 00:44:13,640 Speaker 1: that the broad strokes of what you need to know 735 00:44:13,719 --> 00:44:16,319 Speaker 1: will reach you, and it probably will. That's that's like 736 00:44:16,360 --> 00:44:19,120 Speaker 1: a key to to keeping your peace when things are 737 00:44:19,760 --> 00:44:22,640 Speaker 1: falling apart and on fire all around us every day, 738 00:44:22,680 --> 00:44:27,279 Speaker 1: all the time. Totally. Yeah, Okay, that that is you 739 00:44:27,400 --> 00:44:29,440 Speaker 1: just like said it all in one sentence. What took 740 00:44:29,520 --> 00:44:32,440 Speaker 1: me like an hour to like circle around too, But 741 00:44:32,440 --> 00:44:35,960 Speaker 1: you like, yeah, like as long as you know, I 742 00:44:36,360 --> 00:44:39,120 Speaker 1: have like a few news sources that I trust, and 743 00:44:39,120 --> 00:44:42,879 Speaker 1: I'm like, okay, I do trust, you know, the people 744 00:44:43,000 --> 00:44:46,360 Speaker 1: working at X new source to tell me what I 745 00:44:46,440 --> 00:44:49,719 Speaker 1: need to know in a way that isn't I don't know, 746 00:44:49,880 --> 00:44:53,400 Speaker 1: Like so much of the way that news is presented 747 00:44:53,440 --> 00:44:58,160 Speaker 1: to us now is performance, and it's sometimes feels I 748 00:44:58,200 --> 00:45:03,560 Speaker 1: feel like shame and like embarrassment for like not being 749 00:45:03,600 --> 00:45:08,160 Speaker 1: able to engage with it in real time. Um, but 750 00:45:08,280 --> 00:45:11,840 Speaker 1: then I just have to remind myself, like the I 751 00:45:11,880 --> 00:45:16,880 Speaker 1: don't know, like the ramifications of what is being said 752 00:45:16,960 --> 00:45:21,320 Speaker 1: and what is being shown and decided are incredibly real. 753 00:45:22,000 --> 00:45:26,439 Speaker 1: The way they're presented is performance, and so like, how 754 00:45:26,480 --> 00:45:30,920 Speaker 1: can I I need to be able to engage with 755 00:45:31,000 --> 00:45:33,719 Speaker 1: the results. I have to be able to engage with 756 00:45:34,480 --> 00:45:39,360 Speaker 1: understanding who is this going to affect? Like what is 757 00:45:39,400 --> 00:45:42,320 Speaker 1: there anything within my power that I can be helpful 758 00:45:42,360 --> 00:45:45,279 Speaker 1: with or like, you know, just sort of sorting that 759 00:45:45,320 --> 00:45:49,560 Speaker 1: out when when any existentially stressful issue comes up, which 760 00:45:49,560 --> 00:45:52,719 Speaker 1: it feels like happens every other day, but the way 761 00:45:52,719 --> 00:45:57,560 Speaker 1: it's presented is so, um, I don't know, it doesn't 762 00:45:57,560 --> 00:46:00,680 Speaker 1: feel productive and it and it like you're saying, like 763 00:46:00,719 --> 00:46:02,560 Speaker 1: it keeps you up at night and it feels bad 764 00:46:02,719 --> 00:46:08,239 Speaker 1: and um, and you don't need to engage with the 765 00:46:08,280 --> 00:46:13,279 Speaker 1: circus to understand what the result of the circus is, 766 00:46:13,440 --> 00:46:15,400 Speaker 1: you know, I don't. I'd like I'm not explaining it 767 00:46:15,560 --> 00:46:17,920 Speaker 1: very well, but I'm trying to like develop a healthier 768 00:46:17,920 --> 00:46:21,080 Speaker 1: attitude towards that and not feeling a shame for not 769 00:46:21,120 --> 00:46:26,840 Speaker 1: wanting to watch a four hour broadcast of Um, you 770 00:46:26,880 --> 00:46:32,000 Speaker 1: know MP four is of the most horrific ship ever that. Yeah, 771 00:46:32,360 --> 00:46:35,520 Speaker 1: can you tell us a bit more about Lolita, Pod, 772 00:46:35,800 --> 00:46:40,920 Speaker 1: Ghost Church and Bechtel Cast? Yeah? Cool? Um? Yeah, So 773 00:46:41,000 --> 00:46:44,359 Speaker 1: I UM have a couple of different podcasts that I've 774 00:46:44,400 --> 00:46:48,120 Speaker 1: worked on. My weekly podcast, UM, which Pridget has been 775 00:46:48,120 --> 00:46:52,040 Speaker 1: a guest on before, is called the Bechtel Cast. It's 776 00:46:52,239 --> 00:46:58,120 Speaker 1: an intersectional feminist look at everyone's favorite movies. That's with 777 00:46:58,120 --> 00:47:01,760 Speaker 1: my friend Caitlin Durante on I Radio. UM. It's my favorite. 778 00:47:01,800 --> 00:47:04,160 Speaker 1: I really love doing it. And then I've also done 779 00:47:04,239 --> 00:47:08,280 Speaker 1: a couple of UM solo podcasts that are more investigative 780 00:47:08,360 --> 00:47:12,160 Speaker 1: and they're all like limited series UM. And those are 781 00:47:12,840 --> 00:47:15,960 Speaker 1: UM the ones we were talking about where Lolita podcast, 782 00:47:16,040 --> 00:47:19,760 Speaker 1: which is a time episode examination of the book Lolita 783 00:47:19,880 --> 00:47:23,239 Speaker 1: and kind of how um it was wildly taken out 784 00:47:23,280 --> 00:47:27,360 Speaker 1: of context by UM the whole world. And then my 785 00:47:27,400 --> 00:47:30,560 Speaker 1: most recent one is about American spiritualism, which is like 786 00:47:30,600 --> 00:47:35,400 Speaker 1: a movement, uh that started in the eighteen hundreds that 787 00:47:35,480 --> 00:47:38,879 Speaker 1: encourage people to talk to the dead vo sciences and 788 00:47:39,239 --> 00:47:43,000 Speaker 1: it's called ghost Church. I went to this like community 789 00:47:43,040 --> 00:47:47,200 Speaker 1: of elderly um psychics in Florida to do some research 790 00:47:47,280 --> 00:47:50,560 Speaker 1: and like looked into the history of the movement and uh, 791 00:47:50,600 --> 00:47:58,960 Speaker 1: there's a lot there. I really enjoyed doing it. I 792 00:47:59,080 --> 00:48:01,120 Speaker 1: got a story about an interesting thing in tech or 793 00:48:01,200 --> 00:48:03,040 Speaker 1: just want to say hi, you can reach us at 794 00:48:03,080 --> 00:48:05,319 Speaker 1: Hello at tang godi dot com. You can also find 795 00:48:05,320 --> 00:48:08,200 Speaker 1: transcripts for today's episode at tangdi dot com. There Are 796 00:48:08,200 --> 00:48:10,399 Speaker 1: No Girls on the Internet was created by me Bridget Tod. 797 00:48:10,800 --> 00:48:13,800 Speaker 1: It's a production of iHeart Radio and Unboss creative Jonathan 798 00:48:13,840 --> 00:48:16,880 Speaker 1: Strickland as our executive producer, Ary Harrison as our producer 799 00:48:16,880 --> 00:48:20,359 Speaker 1: and sound engineer. Michael Amato is our contributing producer. I'm 800 00:48:20,400 --> 00:48:23,279 Speaker 1: your host, Bridget Todd. If you want to help us grow, 801 00:48:23,480 --> 00:48:26,600 Speaker 1: rate and review us on Apple Podcasts. For more podcasts 802 00:48:26,600 --> 00:48:28,680 Speaker 1: from I heeart Radio, check out the iHeart Radio app, 803 00:48:28,719 --> 00:48:30,759 Speaker 1: Apple podcast or wherever you get your podcasts.