1 00:00:15,250 --> 00:00:27,170 Speaker 1: Pushkin high listeners at Jacob Weisberg here, I'm the CEO 2 00:00:27,210 --> 00:00:31,250 Speaker 1: of Pushkin Industries. At Pushkin, we think of Juneteenth as 3 00:00:31,290 --> 00:00:34,130 Speaker 1: an opportunity to reflect on the past and think about 4 00:00:34,130 --> 00:00:36,810 Speaker 1: the future. How do we build a more just and 5 00:00:36,930 --> 00:00:40,890 Speaker 1: equitable society. We strive to make podcasts that help to 6 00:00:40,890 --> 00:00:44,970 Speaker 1: answer that question, and in honor of Juneteenth, we're highlighting 7 00:00:45,010 --> 00:00:48,930 Speaker 1: two of them. Be Anti Racist is hosted by doctor 8 00:00:49,010 --> 00:00:54,530 Speaker 1: Ibram X. Kendy, an author, professor, activist, and historian. His 9 00:00:54,650 --> 00:00:57,170 Speaker 1: book How to Be an Anti Racist has become a 10 00:00:57,210 --> 00:01:01,850 Speaker 1: guide for anyone interested in dismantling the structures that racism creates. 11 00:01:03,290 --> 00:01:05,890 Speaker 1: The podcast gives him a chance to dive deep into 12 00:01:05,890 --> 00:01:09,690 Speaker 1: issues like immigration, to sports, and voting rights with guests 13 00:01:09,690 --> 00:01:13,890 Speaker 1: like Julian Castro and Jamel Hill. Who're going to You're 14 00:01:13,930 --> 00:01:17,370 Speaker 1: An excerpt from a conversation doctor Kendy had recently with 15 00:01:17,490 --> 00:01:21,450 Speaker 1: author and political analyst Heather cmgee. They focus on the 16 00:01:21,450 --> 00:01:24,770 Speaker 1: economic costs of racism for everyone, not just those in 17 00:01:24,850 --> 00:01:28,010 Speaker 1: black or brown communities, and how diversity can lead to 18 00:01:28,050 --> 00:01:32,650 Speaker 1: economic prosperity for all. Then you'll hear a truly remarkable 19 00:01:32,690 --> 00:01:36,410 Speaker 1: story of bridging racial divides Darrell Davis is a black 20 00:01:36,490 --> 00:01:40,490 Speaker 1: jazz musician who has convinced hundreds of KKK members to 21 00:01:40,730 --> 00:01:44,210 Speaker 1: leave the clan. It all started with one conversation in 22 00:01:44,290 --> 00:01:48,290 Speaker 1: a jazz club because Darryll was interested in understanding people 23 00:01:48,370 --> 00:01:52,410 Speaker 1: with wildly different views. Darrell appeared on A Slight Change 24 00:01:52,450 --> 00:01:56,650 Speaker 1: of Plans, a podcast hosted by doctor Maya Shankar. Shankar 25 00:01:56,810 --> 00:01:59,810 Speaker 1: is a cognitive scientist who's fascinated by what happens when 26 00:01:59,810 --> 00:02:02,970 Speaker 1: we find ourselves at the brink of change, and she's 27 00:02:03,010 --> 00:02:06,090 Speaker 1: got a knack for getting people, including Hillary Clinton and 28 00:02:06,170 --> 00:02:10,130 Speaker 1: Tiffany Hattisch to open up to her years Doctor Kendy 29 00:02:10,290 --> 00:02:21,490 Speaker 1: on Be Anti Racist Welcome to Be Anti Racist in 30 00:02:21,610 --> 00:02:25,730 Speaker 1: Action podcasts where we discuss how to diagnose, dismantle, and 31 00:02:25,770 --> 00:02:30,010 Speaker 1: abolish racism, how to save humanity from the divisiveness of 32 00:02:30,130 --> 00:02:34,730 Speaker 1: racist ideas and the destructiveness of racist power and policy, 33 00:02:35,050 --> 00:02:38,330 Speaker 1: How to free humanity through the unity of anti racist 34 00:02:38,370 --> 00:02:43,330 Speaker 1: ideas and the constructiveness of anti racist power and policy. 35 00:02:44,130 --> 00:02:47,650 Speaker 1: On b Anti Racist, we discuss how to make the 36 00:02:47,690 --> 00:02:52,050 Speaker 1: impossible possible and how to bring into being what modern 37 00:02:52,170 --> 00:02:58,690 Speaker 1: humans have never known, a just an equitable world. You ready, 38 00:02:59,650 --> 00:03:11,370 Speaker 1: Let's roll in the night thirties and forties, the United 39 00:03:11,370 --> 00:03:14,650 Speaker 1: States went on a nationwide building boom of public amenities 40 00:03:14,690 --> 00:03:19,650 Speaker 1: funded by tax dollars, which in Montgomery, Alabama, included the 41 00:03:19,690 --> 00:03:23,810 Speaker 1: Oak Park Pool, which was the grandest one for miles, 42 00:03:24,810 --> 00:03:29,810 Speaker 1: except the Oak Park Pool was for whites only. When 43 00:03:29,810 --> 00:03:34,610 Speaker 1: a federal court finally deemed this unconstitutional, the reaction of 44 00:03:34,650 --> 00:03:38,530 Speaker 1: the town council was swift. They decided they would drain 45 00:03:38,810 --> 00:03:42,730 Speaker 1: the public pool rather than let black families swim to 46 00:03:44,370 --> 00:03:51,530 Speaker 1: They never rebuilt the pool. Racism has a cost for everyone. 47 00:03:52,690 --> 00:03:56,170 Speaker 1: HEATHERN McGee is an expert in economic and social policy 48 00:03:56,450 --> 00:03:59,450 Speaker 1: and the author of the best selling book The Some 49 00:03:59,650 --> 00:04:02,890 Speaker 1: of Us, What Racism Costs Everyone and How We Can 50 00:04:02,970 --> 00:04:08,570 Speaker 1: prosper Together. Heather explodes one of the greatest racial myths 51 00:04:09,210 --> 00:04:13,010 Speaker 1: that white people lose as people of color gain. She 52 00:04:13,170 --> 00:04:19,410 Speaker 1: shows that as racism wins, we all lose. Heather is 53 00:04:19,450 --> 00:04:22,610 Speaker 1: one of America's sharpest thinkers. The former president of the 54 00:04:22,690 --> 00:04:28,210 Speaker 1: inequality focused think Take Demos and its drafted legislation, testified 55 00:04:28,250 --> 00:04:32,970 Speaker 1: before Congress, and contributed regularly to new shows, including NBC's 56 00:04:33,090 --> 00:04:36,610 Speaker 1: Meet the Press. She now chairs the board of Color 57 00:04:36,650 --> 00:04:42,370 Speaker 1: of Change, the nation's largest online racial Justice Organization. I 58 00:04:42,530 --> 00:04:46,090 Speaker 1: sat down with Heather McGee recently to learn how by 59 00:04:46,130 --> 00:04:50,410 Speaker 1: investing in each other, we can all achieve better jobs, 60 00:04:50,610 --> 00:04:55,850 Speaker 1: better health, better democracy, better schools, better neighborhoods for our kids, 61 00:04:56,210 --> 00:05:01,810 Speaker 1: and so much more. Heather is always it's truly an 62 00:05:01,810 --> 00:05:06,330 Speaker 1: honor to speak with you. Your book, The Some of Us, 63 00:05:07,090 --> 00:05:09,650 Speaker 1: is the type of book that I learned from that 64 00:05:09,730 --> 00:05:12,530 Speaker 1: I think many Americans and many people around the world 65 00:05:12,690 --> 00:05:16,250 Speaker 1: can learn from. I wrote this book because I felt 66 00:05:16,290 --> 00:05:20,130 Speaker 1: like we were missing something in the great pursuit of 67 00:05:20,130 --> 00:05:23,930 Speaker 1: a society. It should be to have progress, to have 68 00:05:24,570 --> 00:05:28,890 Speaker 1: people have less want and more joy, people to have 69 00:05:29,450 --> 00:05:34,970 Speaker 1: more of the fruits of economic progress and technological progress, 70 00:05:35,050 --> 00:05:39,410 Speaker 1: and for our problems to be solved generation after generation, right, 71 00:05:39,730 --> 00:05:45,290 Speaker 1: And it felt like that progress slowing down, slash reversing. 72 00:05:45,970 --> 00:05:52,370 Speaker 1: When some Americans imagine the transformation of this country, they 73 00:05:52,410 --> 00:05:55,410 Speaker 1: imagine that they're going to lose if we actually create 74 00:05:55,570 --> 00:06:00,530 Speaker 1: inequitable and just anti racist America. And it seems, as 75 00:06:00,570 --> 00:06:03,170 Speaker 1: you've written, that that's based on a zero sum myth. 76 00:06:04,490 --> 00:06:08,490 Speaker 1: So I left a career in economic policy to go 77 00:06:08,570 --> 00:06:13,250 Speaker 1: out on the quixotic journey in some ways, to find 78 00:06:13,970 --> 00:06:16,970 Speaker 1: the answer to the question of why can't we seem 79 00:06:16,970 --> 00:06:18,850 Speaker 1: to have nice things? And what are the roots of 80 00:06:18,890 --> 00:06:22,530 Speaker 1: our dysfunction? And it's there that I came upon this 81 00:06:22,810 --> 00:06:26,330 Speaker 1: paradigm of the zero sum. It's a term that means 82 00:06:26,410 --> 00:06:30,290 Speaker 1: there's no such thing as mutual progress when you have 83 00:06:30,970 --> 00:06:34,210 Speaker 1: people who are in a competition with one another. If 84 00:06:34,330 --> 00:06:38,090 Speaker 1: team A scores one more point, team B scores one 85 00:06:38,210 --> 00:06:41,410 Speaker 1: less point, the points will always add up to zero, 86 00:06:41,490 --> 00:06:44,930 Speaker 1: positive on one side, negative on the other. Progress for 87 00:06:45,330 --> 00:06:47,810 Speaker 1: team A has to come at the expense of team B. 88 00:06:48,530 --> 00:06:54,210 Speaker 1: There's a limited or fixed pie. And that idea resonated 89 00:06:54,250 --> 00:06:56,330 Speaker 1: so deeply with me. It sort of gave a name 90 00:06:56,370 --> 00:06:59,770 Speaker 1: and a description to something I had sensed my whole life, 91 00:07:00,450 --> 00:07:08,850 Speaker 1: this fear that when white supremacy falls, that the world 92 00:07:09,130 --> 00:07:15,090 Speaker 1: will become one that white people should fear. Therefore, racism 93 00:07:15,250 --> 00:07:18,250 Speaker 1: is really great for white people, really terrible for people 94 00:07:18,250 --> 00:07:22,170 Speaker 1: of color, and so their self interest is in preserving 95 00:07:22,250 --> 00:07:25,490 Speaker 1: racism at all costs. And it's the at all costs 96 00:07:25,530 --> 00:07:29,250 Speaker 1: piece that really felt so important for me to lay out, 97 00:07:29,250 --> 00:07:33,970 Speaker 1: what are the costs of racism to our entire society, 98 00:07:33,970 --> 00:07:38,490 Speaker 1: What exactly is the price white people are willing to pay? 99 00:07:38,850 --> 00:07:42,810 Speaker 1: To keep the system as it has been. And once 100 00:07:42,850 --> 00:07:47,210 Speaker 1: I started looking, the list just kept growing, and that 101 00:07:47,250 --> 00:07:49,930 Speaker 1: made it clear to me that we have these self 102 00:07:49,970 --> 00:07:55,610 Speaker 1: interested elites packaging marketing, selling this zero sum lie to 103 00:07:55,810 --> 00:07:59,690 Speaker 1: most white Americans, and they're doing it for their own profit. 104 00:08:00,730 --> 00:08:04,650 Speaker 1: But our side, when we only talk about racism as 105 00:08:04,690 --> 00:08:06,970 Speaker 1: something that's good for white people, are kind of like 106 00:08:07,090 --> 00:08:10,850 Speaker 1: helping out a little bit, right provocation. The agitation that 107 00:08:10,890 --> 00:08:12,810 Speaker 1: made me feel like, Okay, maybe I do have something 108 00:08:12,850 --> 00:08:15,890 Speaker 1: to add to this conversation was we haven't told the 109 00:08:15,930 --> 00:08:20,010 Speaker 1: full story of what it has caused this entire country. 110 00:08:20,530 --> 00:08:24,210 Speaker 1: You were specifically writing about white folks who think that 111 00:08:24,250 --> 00:08:26,890 Speaker 1: they're going to lose, but as a man of color 112 00:08:26,970 --> 00:08:31,170 Speaker 1: reading it, I also think men of color too have 113 00:08:31,330 --> 00:08:35,930 Speaker 1: bought into this myth of the zero sum, and I 114 00:08:35,970 --> 00:08:40,610 Speaker 1: think that as they've seen women of color organizing and 115 00:08:40,690 --> 00:08:44,730 Speaker 1: advocating in some cases rising, they too have felt threatened 116 00:08:44,770 --> 00:08:47,570 Speaker 1: as if they're losing. Yeah, but back to white folks, 117 00:08:48,050 --> 00:08:50,170 Speaker 1: this is what I've been sort of saying, and I 118 00:08:50,210 --> 00:08:54,130 Speaker 1: want to know whether I'm just wrong that white Americans 119 00:08:55,250 --> 00:09:00,770 Speaker 1: typically compare their lot two people of color, and so, 120 00:09:00,850 --> 00:09:05,530 Speaker 1: in other words, if their school has more resources in 121 00:09:05,570 --> 00:09:08,730 Speaker 1: a way, their child's school is almost like a first 122 00:09:08,730 --> 00:09:11,610 Speaker 1: class school. They're like, whoa, if we create equity, then 123 00:09:11,650 --> 00:09:14,250 Speaker 1: I'm gonna be back in coach. Yeah. I don't want that. 124 00:09:14,290 --> 00:09:17,250 Speaker 1: I'm gonna lose. My kid's gonna lose. But it seems 125 00:09:17,290 --> 00:09:21,370 Speaker 1: to me that white Americans should be assessing themselves from 126 00:09:21,530 --> 00:09:25,010 Speaker 1: other white people in the Western world. Yeah, and when 127 00:09:25,010 --> 00:09:29,050 Speaker 1: they make that comparison, that's when they can see actually 128 00:09:30,050 --> 00:09:33,570 Speaker 1: what they don't have, how they're in coach. That's right, 129 00:09:34,250 --> 00:09:37,490 Speaker 1: And in fact, maybe in other societies in the Western world, 130 00:09:37,850 --> 00:09:40,810 Speaker 1: everybody's just in first class. There's no little curtain that 131 00:09:40,850 --> 00:09:44,410 Speaker 1: the flight attendant moves over right, and everyone gets food right, 132 00:09:44,490 --> 00:09:47,250 Speaker 1: everyone has a leg room, you know, everybody gets to 133 00:09:47,290 --> 00:09:51,690 Speaker 1: bring a bag. You know. This really comes from and 134 00:09:51,890 --> 00:09:55,570 Speaker 1: is a feature of how brutally hierarchical our society is. 135 00:09:56,010 --> 00:09:57,970 Speaker 1: In the first chapter of the Some of Us, I 136 00:09:58,050 --> 00:10:00,450 Speaker 1: go back in our history. I am I I'm like 137 00:10:00,770 --> 00:10:03,130 Speaker 1: somebody else here on this conversation. I'm not in the story, 138 00:10:03,170 --> 00:10:05,770 Speaker 1: and but I felt like I had to go to 139 00:10:06,690 --> 00:10:09,890 Speaker 1: the beginning to find out where this zero s worldview 140 00:10:09,930 --> 00:10:13,370 Speaker 1: and this lie came from, whose interest it served, and 141 00:10:13,490 --> 00:10:17,210 Speaker 1: why it sort of reanimated generation after generation, and as 142 00:10:17,210 --> 00:10:20,570 Speaker 1: it turns out, it was created as a way to 143 00:10:20,690 --> 00:10:28,130 Speaker 1: sort of discipline white Europeans in the colonial era to 144 00:10:28,810 --> 00:10:33,570 Speaker 1: be satisfied with their lot in a society where wealth 145 00:10:33,730 --> 00:10:38,210 Speaker 1: was still quite concentrated, and where because of chattel slavery 146 00:10:38,210 --> 00:10:40,730 Speaker 1: in the plantation economy, there actually wasn't a lot of 147 00:10:40,810 --> 00:10:45,610 Speaker 1: room a white person who was not a plantation owner. 148 00:10:46,250 --> 00:10:49,250 Speaker 1: Their labor wasn't needed in the southern economy, right, Like, 149 00:10:49,290 --> 00:10:52,130 Speaker 1: what do we need you for? Right? This myth of 150 00:10:52,130 --> 00:10:56,690 Speaker 1: white supremacy was sold to white masses so that they 151 00:10:56,690 --> 00:10:59,490 Speaker 1: could have, of course, as W B. Depoys said, the 152 00:10:59,570 --> 00:11:03,530 Speaker 1: psychological wages of whiteness rather than material wages, and those 153 00:11:03,570 --> 00:11:08,650 Speaker 1: psychological wayses were knowing always that in a deeply unequal 154 00:11:09,170 --> 00:11:14,410 Speaker 1: economy they could nonetheless count on being more than and 155 00:11:14,530 --> 00:11:22,210 Speaker 1: better than Black people. Now, hang on for the amazing 156 00:11:22,250 --> 00:11:29,290 Speaker 1: story of Darryll Davis from a slight change of plans. So, 157 00:11:29,410 --> 00:11:31,970 Speaker 1: I was riding in my car. I'm driving, and this 158 00:11:32,130 --> 00:11:36,050 Speaker 1: clansman was sitting in my passenger seat, and we got 159 00:11:36,090 --> 00:11:40,090 Speaker 1: on the topic of a crime, and he made the 160 00:11:40,170 --> 00:11:45,170 Speaker 1: mention that black people are born with a gene that 161 00:11:45,210 --> 00:11:49,530 Speaker 1: makes them violent. And I said, look, I'm as black 162 00:11:49,570 --> 00:11:53,410 Speaker 1: as anybody you've ever seen. I have never done a 163 00:11:53,490 --> 00:11:56,650 Speaker 1: drive by or a car jacking. How do you explain 164 00:11:56,770 --> 00:12:01,010 Speaker 1: that this man did not hesitate one second? He answered 165 00:12:01,050 --> 00:12:04,370 Speaker 1: me instantly, He said, your gene is latent. It hasn't 166 00:12:04,410 --> 00:12:09,810 Speaker 1: come out yet. That's Darryll Davis, a blues musician. And yeah, 167 00:12:09,850 --> 00:12:12,490 Speaker 1: you heard him right. He's driving in his car with 168 00:12:12,570 --> 00:12:15,610 Speaker 1: a member of the Ku Klux Klan. You know, I 169 00:12:15,730 --> 00:12:19,010 Speaker 1: was speechless. I was dumbfounded. And he's sitting next to 170 00:12:19,010 --> 00:12:21,890 Speaker 1: me with all smug and secure. Huh. You see, you 171 00:12:21,890 --> 00:12:24,490 Speaker 1: know you have nothing to say. And I thought about 172 00:12:24,490 --> 00:12:26,930 Speaker 1: it for a moment. Rather than attack him, you say 173 00:12:27,090 --> 00:12:30,730 Speaker 1: it's not true. It's not true. I said to him, 174 00:12:30,850 --> 00:12:34,090 Speaker 1: I said, you know, white people have a gene within 175 00:12:34,170 --> 00:12:39,370 Speaker 1: them that make them serial killers. And he said, why 176 00:12:39,410 --> 00:12:42,970 Speaker 1: would you say that? I said, well, Jason, name me 177 00:12:43,050 --> 00:12:46,810 Speaker 1: three black serial killers. He thought about it. You couldn't 178 00:12:46,850 --> 00:12:51,010 Speaker 1: name anybody. You couldn't do it, I rattled off. Charles Manson, 179 00:12:51,250 --> 00:12:55,650 Speaker 1: Jeffrey Dalmer, Henry Lee Lucas, John Wayne Gacy, Ted Bundy, 180 00:12:56,050 --> 00:13:00,010 Speaker 1: David Berkowitz, son of Sam Albert de Salvo the Boston Strangler, 181 00:13:00,210 --> 00:13:03,730 Speaker 1: and I said, son, you are a serial killer. And 182 00:13:03,850 --> 00:13:07,530 Speaker 1: he said, Darrell, I've never killed anybody. I said, You're 183 00:13:07,570 --> 00:13:11,250 Speaker 1: genus legent hasn't come out yet. He said, well, that's stupid, 184 00:13:11,650 --> 00:13:15,690 Speaker 1: and I said, well, duh, it is stupid. And he 185 00:13:15,810 --> 00:13:20,130 Speaker 1: got very, very quiet, and I could tell that the 186 00:13:20,210 --> 00:13:23,850 Speaker 1: gears in his head were spinning super fast, probably burning 187 00:13:23,890 --> 00:13:26,730 Speaker 1: a hole in there. And then he a moment later 188 00:13:26,890 --> 00:13:30,690 Speaker 1: he changed the subject. But within five months this guy 189 00:13:31,010 --> 00:13:35,490 Speaker 1: quit the Ku Klux Klan. Since that car ride thirty 190 00:13:35,570 --> 00:13:38,770 Speaker 1: years ago, Darryl Davis has gone on to convince dozens 191 00:13:38,770 --> 00:13:42,290 Speaker 1: of people to leave the Ku Klux Klan. Convincing someone 192 00:13:42,370 --> 00:13:45,450 Speaker 1: else to change their mind their view of reality is 193 00:13:45,490 --> 00:13:48,970 Speaker 1: one of the most elusive, coveted types of change, which 194 00:13:49,010 --> 00:13:52,690 Speaker 1: is why Darryl's story feels so improbable. So how does 195 00:13:52,730 --> 00:13:56,930 Speaker 1: he do it? I'm Maya Shunker. As a cognitive scientist, 196 00:13:57,090 --> 00:14:00,010 Speaker 1: I've always been fascinated by how we change our minds 197 00:14:00,090 --> 00:14:03,090 Speaker 1: and why we change our minds. On this show, I'll 198 00:14:03,130 --> 00:14:07,770 Speaker 1: have intimate conversations with people who've navigated extraordinary change, and 199 00:14:07,850 --> 00:14:10,690 Speaker 1: hopefully their stories will at us to think differently about 200 00:14:10,810 --> 00:14:14,050 Speaker 1: change In our own lives. This is a slight change 201 00:14:14,050 --> 00:14:37,810 Speaker 1: of plans, our construution, our construu. Daryl didn't set out 202 00:14:37,850 --> 00:14:40,770 Speaker 1: to change anyone's mind. He was mostly just focused on 203 00:14:40,770 --> 00:14:44,090 Speaker 1: his music. But one night his life took an unexpected 204 00:14:44,130 --> 00:14:46,210 Speaker 1: turn when he was playing a show at a bar 205 00:14:46,410 --> 00:14:54,210 Speaker 1: called the Silver Dollar Lounge. The Silver Dollar Lounge at 206 00:14:54,210 --> 00:14:56,770 Speaker 1: the time was an all white lounge. And I say 207 00:14:56,850 --> 00:14:59,330 Speaker 1: that not meaning that black people could not go in, 208 00:14:59,730 --> 00:15:01,810 Speaker 1: but meaning that they did not go in by their 209 00:15:01,850 --> 00:15:05,050 Speaker 1: own choice because they were not welcome there. And when 210 00:15:05,050 --> 00:15:09,250 Speaker 1: you go somewhere where you're not welcome and alcohol all 211 00:15:09,370 --> 00:15:11,730 Speaker 1: is being served, sometimes it is not made for a 212 00:15:11,730 --> 00:15:15,410 Speaker 1: good combination, especially when you're outnumbered. So we took a 213 00:15:15,450 --> 00:15:18,090 Speaker 1: break after the first set, and I was walking across 214 00:15:18,130 --> 00:15:20,370 Speaker 1: the dance floor to go sit you with the bandmates 215 00:15:20,810 --> 00:15:23,810 Speaker 1: when somebody approached me from behind and put their arm 216 00:15:23,850 --> 00:15:26,170 Speaker 1: around my shoulder. No, I don't know anybody in this place, 217 00:15:26,410 --> 00:15:28,690 Speaker 1: so I'm turning around to see who's touching me, and 218 00:15:28,930 --> 00:15:31,770 Speaker 1: was this gentleman maybe fifteen eighteen years older than me. 219 00:15:32,330 --> 00:15:34,570 Speaker 1: And he's all excited. He says, man, I sure like 220 00:15:34,610 --> 00:15:37,570 Speaker 1: your piano playing. This is the first time I ever 221 00:15:37,570 --> 00:15:40,570 Speaker 1: heard of black man play piano like Jerry Lee Lewis, 222 00:15:41,690 --> 00:15:43,290 Speaker 1: and I told him. I said, well, Gerry Lee got 223 00:15:43,330 --> 00:15:46,170 Speaker 1: it from the same place I did, from black blues 224 00:15:46,370 --> 00:15:48,850 Speaker 1: and boogie woogie piano players. Oh no, no, no no, no, 225 00:15:49,130 --> 00:15:51,090 Speaker 1: I never heard no black name play like that except 226 00:15:51,130 --> 00:15:54,090 Speaker 1: for you. Jerry Lee invented that style. I said, look, 227 00:15:54,410 --> 00:15:56,530 Speaker 1: I know Jerry Lee Lewis. He's a good friend of mine. 228 00:15:56,770 --> 00:15:58,650 Speaker 1: He's told me himself where he learned how to play. 229 00:15:59,210 --> 00:16:01,330 Speaker 1: The guy didn't buy that either, but he was so 230 00:16:01,410 --> 00:16:04,370 Speaker 1: fascinated with me that he wanted me to come back 231 00:16:04,410 --> 00:16:06,170 Speaker 1: to his table. He's going to buy me a drink, 232 00:16:06,650 --> 00:16:08,170 Speaker 1: so I don't drink, but I agreed to have a 233 00:16:08,170 --> 00:16:11,210 Speaker 1: cranberry juice. He bought it, paid the waitress, and then 234 00:16:11,250 --> 00:16:13,810 Speaker 1: he took his glass and he clinked my glass and 235 00:16:13,930 --> 00:16:17,050 Speaker 1: cheered me, and then he announces, you know, this is 236 00:16:17,050 --> 00:16:19,170 Speaker 1: the first time IRA sat down with a black man 237 00:16:19,410 --> 00:16:22,930 Speaker 1: and had a drink. So innocently. I asked him why, 238 00:16:23,570 --> 00:16:25,650 Speaker 1: and he didn't answer me at first. I asked him again, 239 00:16:26,090 --> 00:16:28,170 Speaker 1: and his buddy sitting next to him elbowed him and 240 00:16:28,170 --> 00:16:30,570 Speaker 1: said tell him, tell him, And the guy looked at 241 00:16:30,570 --> 00:16:34,050 Speaker 1: me and said I'm a member of the Ku Klux Klan. 242 00:16:35,490 --> 00:16:38,490 Speaker 1: Well I burst out laughing at him because now I 243 00:16:38,570 --> 00:16:41,050 Speaker 1: do not believe him. I thought he was putting the 244 00:16:41,130 --> 00:16:44,210 Speaker 1: joke on me. I'm laughing. He goes inside his pocket, 245 00:16:44,330 --> 00:16:46,970 Speaker 1: pulls out his wallet, flips through it, and hands me 246 00:16:47,450 --> 00:16:51,570 Speaker 1: his clan membership card. I recognized the clan insignia, which 247 00:16:51,610 --> 00:16:53,810 Speaker 1: is a red circle with a white cross and a 248 00:16:53,850 --> 00:16:56,650 Speaker 1: red blood drop in the center of the cross, and 249 00:16:56,810 --> 00:16:58,850 Speaker 1: I'm thinking myself, oh my goodness, you know this is 250 00:16:58,850 --> 00:17:02,210 Speaker 1: for real. So I stopped laughing. But he was, you know, 251 00:17:02,410 --> 00:17:08,050 Speaker 1: very friendly and very appreciative of my music and all excited. 252 00:17:08,610 --> 00:17:11,930 Speaker 1: He gave me his phone number to, you know, to 253 00:17:11,930 --> 00:17:14,610 Speaker 1: call him whenever I was to return to this bar 254 00:17:14,730 --> 00:17:17,130 Speaker 1: with this band, and so I'd call him every six 255 00:17:17,170 --> 00:17:19,050 Speaker 1: weeks and say, hey, man, you know I'm down there 256 00:17:19,050 --> 00:17:21,530 Speaker 1: at the Silver Dollar this weekend, come on out. You say, 257 00:17:21,530 --> 00:17:24,690 Speaker 1: it's so nonchalantly like so I called the guy. It 258 00:17:24,850 --> 00:17:28,130 Speaker 1: is remarkable that you called this person. And you know, 259 00:17:28,130 --> 00:17:31,530 Speaker 1: I don't think I'm alone in struggling to understand, you know, 260 00:17:31,530 --> 00:17:33,570 Speaker 1: what was going through through your mind at this moment. 261 00:17:33,850 --> 00:17:37,010 Speaker 1: If someone told me that they were in the freaking clan. 262 00:17:37,570 --> 00:17:41,370 Speaker 1: I would certainly not call them back. In fact, I'd 263 00:17:41,410 --> 00:17:43,730 Speaker 1: probably just flee the scene. And I think this is 264 00:17:43,770 --> 00:17:47,570 Speaker 1: for pretty good reasons. Well, you know, I was questioning 265 00:17:47,610 --> 00:17:49,930 Speaker 1: myself for a second, like what the heck am I 266 00:17:50,010 --> 00:17:53,930 Speaker 1: doing sitting here with a klansman. But the guy was friendly. 267 00:17:54,290 --> 00:17:58,410 Speaker 1: He disputed the things that I had in mind of 268 00:17:58,850 --> 00:18:01,810 Speaker 1: the image over typical klansmen, and he wanted to share 269 00:18:01,850 --> 00:18:05,170 Speaker 1: my music with some of his fellow clansmen and clanswomen. 270 00:18:05,530 --> 00:18:07,170 Speaker 1: And they would, you know, get on the dancelore and 271 00:18:07,250 --> 00:18:09,690 Speaker 1: dancelore I'm music. You know they didn't come in robes hoods, right, 272 00:18:09,850 --> 00:18:12,770 Speaker 1: you know, they came in regular street clothes. This goes 273 00:18:12,810 --> 00:18:16,970 Speaker 1: on for a year, an entire year. Darrell would play 274 00:18:17,010 --> 00:18:19,050 Speaker 1: a gig at this bar, and he would invite clan 275 00:18:19,170 --> 00:18:22,010 Speaker 1: members to watch him play. This is one of those 276 00:18:22,050 --> 00:18:26,010 Speaker 1: things that makes Darrell so unusual. I mean, for me, 277 00:18:26,210 --> 00:18:28,530 Speaker 1: a huge part of what makes someone who they are 278 00:18:29,010 --> 00:18:31,970 Speaker 1: is their belief system. And so if we share the 279 00:18:31,970 --> 00:18:35,330 Speaker 1: same taste in music, that's fine, that's great. But if 280 00:18:35,370 --> 00:18:38,970 Speaker 1: I then find out they're a flagrant racist, that's going 281 00:18:39,010 --> 00:18:42,850 Speaker 1: to fully eclipse everything else about them. So how does 282 00:18:42,970 --> 00:18:46,370 Speaker 1: Darrell look past that, he says, It's not like that. 283 00:18:46,610 --> 00:18:50,770 Speaker 1: He wasn't looking past it. He wanted to learn from it. See, 284 00:18:50,850 --> 00:18:54,650 Speaker 1: Darrell had spent his early childhood overseas in a school 285 00:18:54,690 --> 00:18:58,650 Speaker 1: he describes as a United Nations for little kids. Race 286 00:18:58,770 --> 00:19:01,570 Speaker 1: was always in the background, But when he moved back 287 00:19:01,570 --> 00:19:05,130 Speaker 1: to the States when he was ten, he couldn't escape racism, 288 00:19:05,170 --> 00:19:09,250 Speaker 1: and ever since then he's been interested in why people hate. 289 00:19:09,690 --> 00:19:11,850 Speaker 1: I had had an experience at the age of ten 290 00:19:12,450 --> 00:19:15,130 Speaker 1: where some racist people throw rocks and bottles at me 291 00:19:15,210 --> 00:19:18,370 Speaker 1: during a parade in which I was the only black participant, 292 00:19:18,970 --> 00:19:22,450 Speaker 1: and never having had this happened to me before, I 293 00:19:22,570 --> 00:19:25,410 Speaker 1: was perplexed as to why people were doing this, And 294 00:19:25,490 --> 00:19:28,410 Speaker 1: when later my parents explained that it was racism, my 295 00:19:28,490 --> 00:19:31,810 Speaker 1: ten year old brain could not process the idea that 296 00:19:31,930 --> 00:19:34,530 Speaker 1: someone who had never seen me before, who had never 297 00:19:34,570 --> 00:19:37,170 Speaker 1: spoken with me, and knew nothing about me, would want 298 00:19:37,210 --> 00:19:39,690 Speaker 1: to inflict pain upon me for no other reason than 299 00:19:39,730 --> 00:19:42,370 Speaker 1: the color of my skin. You know, that just did 300 00:19:42,450 --> 00:19:45,250 Speaker 1: not compete with me. Well later, when I realized this 301 00:19:45,370 --> 00:19:47,970 Speaker 1: was true, there are people like that, I formed a 302 00:19:48,050 --> 00:19:50,850 Speaker 1: question in my mind, which was, how can you hate 303 00:19:50,890 --> 00:19:53,490 Speaker 1: me when you don't even know me, and some people 304 00:19:53,530 --> 00:19:55,090 Speaker 1: would just say, well, Darrel, you know that's just the 305 00:19:55,130 --> 00:19:57,210 Speaker 1: way it is. Well, no, it's not just the way 306 00:19:57,250 --> 00:19:59,570 Speaker 1: it is. There has to be a reason behind it. 307 00:19:59,970 --> 00:20:02,930 Speaker 1: Well it's always been that way. That was not good 308 00:20:03,010 --> 00:20:04,610 Speaker 1: enough for me. I wanted to get to the nucleus 309 00:20:04,650 --> 00:20:08,810 Speaker 1: of it. So Darrell dedicates himself to answering this question. 310 00:20:09,370 --> 00:20:13,290 Speaker 1: He devours books about race and racism. He reads nearly 311 00:20:13,330 --> 00:20:17,130 Speaker 1: every book that exists on the clan, but he's still unsatisfied, 312 00:20:17,650 --> 00:20:20,050 Speaker 1: so he decides he wants to write his own book 313 00:20:20,130 --> 00:20:23,370 Speaker 1: about the clan. All the books written on the clan 314 00:20:24,130 --> 00:20:28,010 Speaker 1: except for mine, have been written by white authors. You know, 315 00:20:28,250 --> 00:20:31,690 Speaker 1: white authors obviously have an easier time getting in contact 316 00:20:31,690 --> 00:20:34,050 Speaker 1: with the clan and sitting down and not fearing any 317 00:20:34,170 --> 00:20:37,610 Speaker 1: ramifications or whatever, or they might even join the clan undercover. 318 00:20:38,010 --> 00:20:41,730 Speaker 1: A klansman would have a different perspective sitting there talking 319 00:20:41,770 --> 00:20:44,130 Speaker 1: to a black person than he would a white person. 320 00:20:45,010 --> 00:20:47,330 Speaker 1: And how do you feel that perspective would have been 321 00:20:47,330 --> 00:20:50,250 Speaker 1: different because he's sitting there telling the person that he 322 00:20:50,330 --> 00:20:53,850 Speaker 1: hates why he hates them, So now he's having to 323 00:20:53,890 --> 00:20:57,010 Speaker 1: face me and face those same questions. You know that 324 00:20:57,610 --> 00:21:00,690 Speaker 1: somebody would ask or even different questions that a white 325 00:21:00,730 --> 00:21:04,530 Speaker 1: interviewer journalist would not ask, because they don't think of him, 326 00:21:04,530 --> 00:21:06,410 Speaker 1: because they don't feel the things, the same things that 327 00:21:06,490 --> 00:21:10,330 Speaker 1: I feel. As Darrell starts searching for his book, it 328 00:21:10,450 --> 00:21:13,970 Speaker 1: suddenly dawns on him he already knows someone in the clan, 329 00:21:14,530 --> 00:21:17,690 Speaker 1: that guy from the Silver Dollar Lounge. So he goes 330 00:21:17,730 --> 00:21:20,450 Speaker 1: on a mission to track him down. It takes a while, 331 00:21:20,610 --> 00:21:24,090 Speaker 1: but eventually he finds the guy's address and I knocked 332 00:21:24,090 --> 00:21:26,810 Speaker 1: on the door, you know, unannounced, and he opens the 333 00:21:26,850 --> 00:21:29,010 Speaker 1: door and sees He goes, Daryl, you know, what are 334 00:21:29,010 --> 00:21:31,170 Speaker 1: you doing here? And look, he looked up and down 335 00:21:31,210 --> 00:21:33,410 Speaker 1: the hallway to see if I brought anybody with me. 336 00:21:33,850 --> 00:21:35,650 Speaker 1: So it was more of him that who was intimidated 337 00:21:35,690 --> 00:21:39,130 Speaker 1: than me. And when he stepped out of his apartment, 338 00:21:39,330 --> 00:21:42,250 Speaker 1: I stepped in. So he turns around, comes back in. 339 00:21:42,450 --> 00:21:45,210 Speaker 1: So now we're standing inside his apartment and he says, 340 00:21:45,250 --> 00:21:46,970 Speaker 1: you know what's going on? Are you still playing? What's 341 00:21:46,970 --> 00:21:49,210 Speaker 1: going on? I said, yeah, yeah, yeah, I'm still playing. 342 00:21:49,370 --> 00:21:52,250 Speaker 1: But listen, I need to talk to you about the clan. 343 00:21:52,890 --> 00:21:55,130 Speaker 1: He says, the clan. I said, yeah. He goes, well, 344 00:21:55,170 --> 00:21:58,250 Speaker 1: I quit yeah, I quit a while back. I said, well, 345 00:21:58,610 --> 00:22:01,090 Speaker 1: you know, where's all your clan stuff. He says, well, 346 00:22:01,130 --> 00:22:03,090 Speaker 1: they came and got it. And I said, what do 347 00:22:03,130 --> 00:22:04,850 Speaker 1: you mean they came and got your robe and hood? 348 00:22:05,170 --> 00:22:07,530 Speaker 1: You know, don't you own it? And he explained to me, 349 00:22:07,890 --> 00:22:10,290 Speaker 1: when you joined the clan, if you have the money 350 00:22:10,290 --> 00:22:12,690 Speaker 1: to pay for it, you can purchase your robin hood 351 00:22:12,890 --> 00:22:15,850 Speaker 1: and it's yours to keep forever. If you cannot afford 352 00:22:15,850 --> 00:22:17,890 Speaker 1: it at the time, you can still take it home 353 00:22:17,890 --> 00:22:20,170 Speaker 1: with you, but you put a little extra money in 354 00:22:20,490 --> 00:22:23,170 Speaker 1: every time you pay your dues until you pay it off, 355 00:22:23,290 --> 00:22:26,370 Speaker 1: sort like layaway kind of thing. A bizarre financial lead 356 00:22:26,450 --> 00:22:29,810 Speaker 1: system within the clan. Love it, yes, exactly, equal opportunity 357 00:22:29,850 --> 00:22:34,530 Speaker 1: for everyone who's racist, that's right, okay, absolutely so. Anyway, 358 00:22:34,570 --> 00:22:38,170 Speaker 1: he said that they came and got it, but when 359 00:22:38,170 --> 00:22:40,650 Speaker 1: they came to get it, he could not find the mask, 360 00:22:41,290 --> 00:22:44,690 Speaker 1: and he has since found it and he needed to 361 00:22:44,730 --> 00:22:46,970 Speaker 1: return it. I said, what can I see it? So 362 00:22:47,050 --> 00:22:49,570 Speaker 1: he goes down the hallway, comes back and hands me 363 00:22:49,650 --> 00:22:52,130 Speaker 1: the mask. And I said to him, I said, do 364 00:22:52,170 --> 00:22:55,330 Speaker 1: you know Roger Kelly. He goes, yeah, Roger was my 365 00:22:55,370 --> 00:22:57,930 Speaker 1: grand dragon. I know him. And I said well, listen, 366 00:22:57,970 --> 00:22:59,730 Speaker 1: I need you to hook me up with mister Kelly. 367 00:23:00,130 --> 00:23:01,810 Speaker 1: I want you to interview him. I'm going to write 368 00:23:01,810 --> 00:23:04,290 Speaker 1: a book on the clan. Now, let me explain how 369 00:23:04,370 --> 00:23:06,890 Speaker 1: the hierarchy of the clan works. You understand these terms. 370 00:23:07,570 --> 00:23:09,890 Speaker 1: We would call a state leader of governor. They call 371 00:23:10,010 --> 00:23:13,410 Speaker 1: that the Grand Dragon a mayor. That person is known 372 00:23:13,450 --> 00:23:17,130 Speaker 1: as the exalted Cyclops. Anybody on the great level is 373 00:23:17,410 --> 00:23:23,410 Speaker 1: yet very self importance. That yeah, but see, that's also 374 00:23:23,530 --> 00:23:26,450 Speaker 1: what attracts people, because you know, they get titles, they 375 00:23:26,450 --> 00:23:29,170 Speaker 1: feel important. Yes, it's a sense of self importance, you know, 376 00:23:29,690 --> 00:23:32,130 Speaker 1: because they're not getting that from the society in which 377 00:23:32,170 --> 00:23:35,250 Speaker 1: they live. So you know, this brotherhood, this gang, if 378 00:23:35,250 --> 00:23:38,650 Speaker 1: you will, gives him those things. So at the time, 379 00:23:38,770 --> 00:23:41,290 Speaker 1: Roger Kelly was the Grand Dragon state leader from Maryland. 380 00:23:41,570 --> 00:23:43,450 Speaker 1: So I said, I'll tell you what you need to 381 00:23:43,490 --> 00:23:46,770 Speaker 1: return this mask, right, He said, yeah. I said, give 382 00:23:46,810 --> 00:23:49,810 Speaker 1: me Roger Kelly's phone number and his address and I'll 383 00:23:49,810 --> 00:23:52,370 Speaker 1: go and return it for you. And he snatched that 384 00:23:52,450 --> 00:23:54,330 Speaker 1: thing right out of my hand and said, in no way. 385 00:23:55,090 --> 00:23:58,090 Speaker 1: And so I begged and pleaded with him. Well, he 386 00:23:58,130 --> 00:24:00,370 Speaker 1: finally gave it to me on the condition that I 387 00:24:00,490 --> 00:24:03,170 Speaker 1: not revealed him, mister Kelly where I got it, and 388 00:24:03,810 --> 00:24:05,730 Speaker 1: he warned me. He said, Darrel, do not go to 389 00:24:05,810 --> 00:24:09,250 Speaker 1: Roger Kelly's house. Roger Kelly will kill you. And I said, well, 390 00:24:09,250 --> 00:24:11,770 Speaker 1: that's that's the whole reason why I need to talk 391 00:24:11,770 --> 00:24:14,490 Speaker 1: to mister Kelly. I know, why would he kill me? 392 00:24:15,090 --> 00:24:17,850 Speaker 1: What is going on in his mind when he sees me. 393 00:24:18,250 --> 00:24:21,930 Speaker 1: I have to understand this. You did realize that you 394 00:24:22,010 --> 00:24:23,730 Speaker 1: might not get the answer to the question if in 395 00:24:23,810 --> 00:24:29,010 Speaker 1: fact the dangerous part happened first? Right, true, this is true, 396 00:24:29,090 --> 00:24:32,690 Speaker 1: But but I was thinking, you know that I would 397 00:24:32,730 --> 00:24:36,530 Speaker 1: I would prevail. I'm the eternal optimist if you will, Well, 398 00:24:36,530 --> 00:24:40,170 Speaker 1: I am not the eternal optimist. And Darrell's decision feels 399 00:24:40,210 --> 00:24:45,170 Speaker 1: incredibly risky. But anyway, he has a secretary, Mary, call 400 00:24:45,250 --> 00:24:49,090 Speaker 1: and schedule the interview, and he gives her one important instruction, 401 00:24:49,850 --> 00:24:53,010 Speaker 1: do not tell him that I'm black, and see if 402 00:24:53,050 --> 00:24:55,930 Speaker 1: you would consent to sitting down and giving her boss 403 00:24:56,130 --> 00:24:58,690 Speaker 1: an interview. I figured, you know, he might pick up 404 00:24:58,690 --> 00:25:02,330 Speaker 1: in my voice that I'm black, and I didn't want 405 00:25:02,410 --> 00:25:03,810 Speaker 1: him to hang up the phone say am I talking 406 00:25:03,810 --> 00:25:06,210 Speaker 1: to you? And my whole project would have ended before 407 00:25:06,210 --> 00:25:09,490 Speaker 1: they would get started. Roger Kelly agrees to meet for 408 00:25:09,530 --> 00:25:13,490 Speaker 1: an interview one evening at a nearby motel. Darrel gets 409 00:25:13,490 --> 00:25:16,570 Speaker 1: to the motel early with Mary. He's not sure if 410 00:25:16,650 --> 00:25:18,930 Speaker 1: Roger will even agree to step foot in the room, 411 00:25:19,330 --> 00:25:22,810 Speaker 1: but if he does, Daryl wants to be hospitable. He 412 00:25:22,850 --> 00:25:24,850 Speaker 1: asked Mary to fill up the ice bucket and buy 413 00:25:24,890 --> 00:25:28,250 Speaker 1: some sodas and then they start arranging the room. There's 414 00:25:28,250 --> 00:25:31,250 Speaker 1: not much to arrange. There's the ice bucket, a table, 415 00:25:31,530 --> 00:25:34,890 Speaker 1: two chairs, and Darrell's canvas bag which has his tape 416 00:25:34,890 --> 00:25:37,970 Speaker 1: recorder and a Bible. The clan claims to be a 417 00:25:38,050 --> 00:25:41,770 Speaker 1: Christian organization, and they claim that the Bible preaches are 418 00:25:41,890 --> 00:25:45,330 Speaker 1: racial separation. Now, in my reading of the Bible, I 419 00:25:45,370 --> 00:25:47,610 Speaker 1: have never seen anything like that in there. So I 420 00:25:47,610 --> 00:25:49,570 Speaker 1: want to be able to pull up my Bible and 421 00:25:49,650 --> 00:25:51,890 Speaker 1: hand it to him and say, here, MITCHA. Kelly, please 422 00:25:52,370 --> 00:25:56,570 Speaker 1: show me chapter and verse where it says blacksom whites 423 00:25:56,650 --> 00:26:00,010 Speaker 1: must be separate. So I'm all prepared, right right on time, 424 00:26:00,090 --> 00:26:02,530 Speaker 1: right to the minute. Five fifteen knock, knock, knock on 425 00:26:02,570 --> 00:26:06,890 Speaker 1: the door. In Walts what is known as the Grand Nighthawk. 426 00:26:07,410 --> 00:26:13,290 Speaker 1: Nighthawk means bodyguard, security he's dressed in military camouflage and 427 00:26:13,330 --> 00:26:16,370 Speaker 1: he has that clan patch on his chest on one side, 428 00:26:16,650 --> 00:26:18,570 Speaker 1: on the other side of his chest or the initials 429 00:26:18,650 --> 00:26:22,250 Speaker 1: KKK and embroidered on his cap and said Knights of 430 00:26:22,250 --> 00:26:24,730 Speaker 1: the Ku Klux Klan, and on his hip. He had 431 00:26:24,730 --> 00:26:28,930 Speaker 1: a semi automatic handgun in a holster. He comes in, 432 00:26:29,370 --> 00:26:33,530 Speaker 1: mister Kelly is walking directly behind him, carrying a briefcase 433 00:26:33,770 --> 00:26:36,570 Speaker 1: in a dark blue suit and tie. And the nighthawk 434 00:26:36,650 --> 00:26:41,290 Speaker 1: turned the corner and saw me and just froze in 435 00:26:41,290 --> 00:26:44,730 Speaker 1: his trap. So mister Kelly slammed into his back and 436 00:26:44,850 --> 00:26:47,210 Speaker 1: knocked this guy forward. And now that they both are 437 00:26:47,210 --> 00:26:50,530 Speaker 1: stumbling around trying to regain their balance, and they're like 438 00:26:50,610 --> 00:26:52,930 Speaker 1: looking all around the room like somebody's not right here. 439 00:26:53,810 --> 00:26:56,050 Speaker 1: And I'm just sitting at the table looking at their faces, 440 00:26:56,570 --> 00:27:00,170 Speaker 1: and I could read their faces like a billboard. Their 441 00:27:00,170 --> 00:27:03,130 Speaker 1: faces were saying to me, did the desk k give 442 00:27:03,170 --> 00:27:05,050 Speaker 1: us the wrong room number? Do you do? Do we 443 00:27:05,090 --> 00:27:08,130 Speaker 1: misunderstand something? Or is this an ambush? So you know, 444 00:27:08,170 --> 00:27:11,130 Speaker 1: I saw the apprehension, and so I stood up and 445 00:27:11,210 --> 00:27:13,730 Speaker 1: I displayed both of my palms to show I had 446 00:27:13,770 --> 00:27:16,930 Speaker 1: nothing in my hands, and I walked forward. I extended 447 00:27:16,970 --> 00:27:19,410 Speaker 1: my right hand and I said, Hi, mister Kelly, I'm 448 00:27:19,490 --> 00:27:35,490 Speaker 1: Darrell Davis. I hope both of these conversations inspired thinking 449 00:27:35,530 --> 00:27:39,130 Speaker 1: and conversation around issues of race. You can find more 450 00:27:39,130 --> 00:27:41,890 Speaker 1: episodes of b Anti Racist and A Slight Change of 451 00:27:41,930 --> 00:27:44,210 Speaker 1: Plans wherever you get your podcasts