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Speaker 1: Hey, this is Anny and Samantha and welcome to stuff.

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Speaker 1: I never told your protiction of I Heart Radio. It

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Speaker 1: is time for another edition of Female First, which means

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Speaker 1: we were once again joined by our good friend and

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Speaker 1: colleague Eaves. Hello Eaves, Hello there. I'm excited to be

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Speaker 1: back again. Happy day before Turkey Day. Thank you. Yes,

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Speaker 1: I am here for the quality time I will get

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Speaker 1: to spend with myself this holiday, but I won't I

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Speaker 1: don't think I'll be eating that much. I don't know

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Speaker 1: about y'all. I'm not prepared. Yeah, So I just realized

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Speaker 1: honestly that I don't really have the groceries to make

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Speaker 1: any kind of feast because I'm not going anywhere either.

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Speaker 1: It's just gonna be myself and my partner. So I

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Speaker 1: was kind of like, Okay, can sloop happy Happy holidays? Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm down to my I'm down to my last like

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Speaker 1: frozen pizzas. It's dire. Straight, you've been eating fronds and

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Speaker 1: pizzas too. I don't eating frozen pizzas for the last week.

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Speaker 1: They're like on collie flower crust and they have like

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Speaker 1: vegan meal. How's that? Um there? I mean, it's still

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Speaker 1: not a hot standard I mean they make them sound

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Speaker 1: like it's fancy, but it's still frozen pizza. But I

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Speaker 1: mean it works and it's easy, and I feel like

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Speaker 1: these times are hard. You know, it was so delicious

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Speaker 1: and sometimes especially in a pinch, I like that better

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Speaker 1: than I do like some of the chain pizzas, So

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Speaker 1: I'm okay with it. Yeah, it's funny because, um, a

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Speaker 1: couple a couple of weeks ago, I was at the

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Speaker 1: store and I like, go, I go at eight am

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Speaker 1: on a Wednesday or Thursday, because apparently that's when there's

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Speaker 1: the least people. So there's usually like ten people in

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Speaker 1: the whole thing. And uh, I'm used to having my

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Speaker 1: solitude getting in and that really quickly. And I was

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Speaker 1: restocking at my frozen food, and this woman asked me, uh,

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Speaker 1: are those any good? And I had like this box

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Speaker 1: of I had like an armful of frozen food. I

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Speaker 1: dropped in all of like screamed, she's scared. I wasn't

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Speaker 1: expecting anybody to talk to me, and I was like,

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Speaker 1: you know, they're fine, Like I don't know, up the

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Speaker 1: are you? Are you one of those people who needs

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Speaker 1: a basket or a cart but doesn't get one? Because

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Speaker 1: this is this is what I do. I go in

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Speaker 1: the store and I'm like, I got two three things

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Speaker 1: I'm going to get, and then like I end up remember,

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Speaker 1: oh no, I need bacon soda too, and then I'm

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Speaker 1: out of a basket, and I'm trying to be like,

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Speaker 1: you know, but like you know, a world classed weightlifter

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Speaker 1: and might carry everything in my hands with the store.

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Speaker 1: I do that less now because I do shop for

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Speaker 1: like two weeks at a time. But I'm definitely somebody

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Speaker 1: who would be like, I just need a basket, and

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Speaker 1: I clearly I needed more than a basket, and I'm

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Speaker 1: like holding it all in and I like walked to

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Speaker 1: the store too, So there's always that hanging over me.

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Speaker 1: I'm definitely one of those as well. I've learned my

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Speaker 1: lesson that people. Last time, I literally had to just

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Speaker 1: put everything on the ground, go back to get a cart,

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Speaker 1: and then come back because it was such a like endeavor.

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Speaker 1: So because of that, since that, I've learned that lesson

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Speaker 1: and get the small cart because you know, just in case. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: my my older brother, uh, it was a bit of

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Speaker 1: a prankster and when he was in middle school, he

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Speaker 1: would um when we were at the store. He would

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Speaker 1: put items in other people's carts, just like random items,

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Speaker 1: and so I'm really paranoid about just like not keeping

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Speaker 1: an eye on my cart or Oh that's a good

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Speaker 1: trick though it's kind of like hard. It's very harmless.

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Speaker 1: And yeah, you get to the checkout, You're like, where,

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Speaker 1: I don't remember getting this bag of cheetah was sure? Yeah, okay.

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Speaker 1: I think that's what a lot of kids due to

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Speaker 1: their parents, like, they'll never notice these tin candy bars

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Speaker 1: that I put inside. I do like that trick too. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: you're like, I think you're so sly. Well this I

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Speaker 1: was turned into grocery talk. I like it. It does

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Speaker 1: consume a lot of my life now. I actually have

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Speaker 1: a journal of how long foods lasts. Good. Yeah, cabbage,

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Speaker 1: I've said it before us, Hey it again, it lasts forever. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I'm not Yeah, good tip. Yeah yeah, I'm a pro

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Speaker 1: pro tip with the groceries these days. But we're not

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Speaker 1: just talking about crush. Who did you bring for us today?

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Speaker 1: You'ves today? We're gonna be talking about Cass Williams. So

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Speaker 1: I know we talked about a little bit about her

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Speaker 1: pronunciation before this, but I've heard different things on her pronunciations,

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Speaker 1: so cass Williams and Cathie Williams because it's also been

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Speaker 1: spelled as Kathy Williams, So there's a little bit of

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Speaker 1: confusion around the actual spelling of her name, but I'm

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Speaker 1: just gonna go with cass A Williams for the rest

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Speaker 1: of this episode because a bunch of people have pronounced

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Speaker 1: it that way. So yeah, and she was the only

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Speaker 1: known black woman buffalo soldier, um, and a buffalo soldier

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Speaker 1: was just the name that Native Americans gave to black troops, um,

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Speaker 1: and she was. So she was the first black woman

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Speaker 1: with documented service in the U. S. Army, where everyone

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Speaker 1: assumed that she was a side mill at birth. UM.

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Speaker 1: So I'm just gonna say upfront that we don't know

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Speaker 1: cass Ay Williams's gender identity, Like, and I know y'all

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Speaker 1: know because y'all talk about so many people in the

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Speaker 1: past who have whose stories we know, but who we

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Speaker 1: don't have a lot of information about in terms of

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Speaker 1: what they said about their own lives. And that's the

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Speaker 1: case in Kathy Williams's story. There's a lot that's kind

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Speaker 1: of up in the air, and there has been stuff

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Speaker 1: written about her and there has been interviews and stuff

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Speaker 1: like that, but it's it's not that extensive. Um, we

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Speaker 1: only know that she was aside female at birth and

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Speaker 1: that she referred to herself as a woman in interviews,

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Speaker 1: but we don't know the ins and outs of her

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Speaker 1: gender identity, as is the case with people in the past,

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Speaker 1: and um, yeah, that's the case in in her story

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Speaker 1: as well. Yeah. And actually we have briefly talked about

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Speaker 1: Kathy Williams before on a previous episode, and it was

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Speaker 1: an episode we did on a history of women dressing

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Speaker 1: as men to get into various fields they weren't allowed in,

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Speaker 1: And that's something we said in that one because you

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Speaker 1: can't it gets really tricky and murky because you can't

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Speaker 1: say for sure without having um the the history or

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Speaker 1: evidence of them, the person in question, what they what

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Speaker 1: they identified as. And even in that case, sometimes the

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Speaker 1: terminology just wasn't there or it's just tricky. So, yes,

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Speaker 1: that's a good disclaimer to put right at the top, right,

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Speaker 1: And I think that also, and I think we can

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Speaker 1: get into this a little bit later after we know

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Speaker 1: more about her story, but it also wraps into the

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Speaker 1: conversation about first. So we're calling her the first woman

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Speaker 1: with documented service in the U. S. Army, And there's

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Speaker 1: the typical caveat of first, it's like, Okay, there's a

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Speaker 1: whole history behind first. There are other people who did this.

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Speaker 1: And a thing about this is as you already know

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Speaker 1: because you've done an episode about this, but that there

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Speaker 1: have been so many other people in the past, in

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Speaker 1: the Civil War and World War two and all kinds

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Speaker 1: of wars, and in militia's or of eighteen twelve that

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Speaker 1: also could have had various gender identities. There were trans

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Speaker 1: people who we know have served in the military, and

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Speaker 1: also people who cross dress who served in the military

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Speaker 1: and militia's and some of those people were likely um,

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Speaker 1: black women, you know, some of those people were um,

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Speaker 1: black queer people. So um, yeah, it's it's there's a

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Speaker 1: long history of it. And for various reasons, those stories

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Speaker 1: wouldn't be known or documented or talked about because of privacy,

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Speaker 1: because of harm that could be done when those stories

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Speaker 1: are out, because of personal choices for whatever those choices

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Speaker 1: may be. Um, that person may have been determining their

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Speaker 1: own gender identity. I mean, it could be so many

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Speaker 1: different things. So yeah, it's the cavy. This is a big, big,

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Speaker 1: big astress on this this first, but um, we're gonna

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Speaker 1: roll with it because I think it's worth. I think

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Speaker 1: it's worth talking about Kathy Williams today. Yeah. Yeah, let's

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Speaker 1: you're you're ready to get into it. Yeah, let's do it.

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Speaker 1: So Kathy Williams was born to an enslaved mother and

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Speaker 1: a free father in Independence, Missouri. So, as I mentioned earlier,

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Speaker 1: there's not a ton that's known about her life before

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Speaker 1: she enlisted in the U. S. Army, As is the

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Speaker 1: case with so many people, so many black people, specifically

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Speaker 1: in the United States. Her birth year is often cited

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Speaker 1: as eighteen forty four. It's also been cited as eighteen

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Speaker 1: forty two, um, but written record keeping was very neither

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Speaker 1: here nor there, like it's very all over the place

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Speaker 1: back in the day, um, and was often inaccurate as well.

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Speaker 1: But that's around it's most often side as eighteen forty four.

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Speaker 1: Many of the other basic facts of her early life

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Speaker 1: are unknown as well and not known to have been recorded,

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Speaker 1: like the correct spelling of her name, So there is

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Speaker 1: just a bunch of murkiness in terms of her story,

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Speaker 1: and that in that way as well. But it has

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Speaker 1: been reported that she was enslaved by William Johnson, who

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Speaker 1: was a wealthy white farmer in Jefferson City. So I

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Speaker 1: think this is where, UM it's a good time to

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Speaker 1: get into some of the historical context of her life. UM.

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Speaker 1: So we know that that. Well, let me not make

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Speaker 1: any assumptions, but UM, the Emancipation Proclamation was issued in

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Speaker 1: eighteen sixty three by President Abraham Lincoln. That was during

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Speaker 1: the Civil War, and that emancipated some enslaved people, not

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Speaker 1: all enslaved people in the States. UM, and emancipated people

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Speaker 1: who UM in states that has succeeded from the United States, UM,

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Speaker 1: with many many caveats. And the Civil War lasted from

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Speaker 1: sixty five. So there were Union forces that occupied Jefferson

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Speaker 1: City in eighteen sixty one. Kathay Williams was freed. I'm

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Speaker 1: saying that with big air quotes by Union forces because

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Speaker 1: the definition of freedom is so markie UM as well,

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Speaker 1: but by Union forces and taken as so called contraband

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Speaker 1: and contraband at the time, enslaved people are often referred

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Speaker 1: to as property. And so when enslaved people escaped, UM

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Speaker 1: from their enslavers and made it to the Union side. UM.

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Speaker 1: Those people. Some of those people who ran away were

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Speaker 1: turned back, but some of them were who ran away

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Speaker 1: were taken captured by Union forces and were deemed this

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Speaker 1: quote unquote contraband, and they were forced to work as cooks,

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Speaker 1: as nurses, and as laborers and fortifications and various other jobs.

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Speaker 1: And of course they were exploited in that labor as well,

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Speaker 1: So they were quote unquote free, but then they were

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Speaker 1: in turn forced to do labor and they were exploited

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Speaker 1: for it. So Cassay Williams in this in this way

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Speaker 1: worked as a servant and as a cook and worked

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Speaker 1: laundering clothes, and she began traveling with the army across

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Speaker 1: the country and she was able to experience what life

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Speaker 1: was like for soldiers during her travels. We have a

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Speaker 1: lot more to discuss, listeners, but first we have equip

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Speaker 1: break for a word from our sponsor. We're back, thank

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Speaker 1: you sponsored. So just to add here to that, before

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Speaker 1: eight six three, many black men were allowed to unofficially

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Speaker 1: enlist um in the Union Army, though they were officially

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Speaker 1: prohibited from enlisting in the U. S. Army. So after

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Speaker 1: a lot of people's work who were in support of this,

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Speaker 1: including abolitionists who advocated for it, black people who were

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Speaker 1: forming their own infantry units, and the passing of this

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Speaker 1: thing called the Second Confiscation and Militia Act in eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixty two, in addition to the passing of the Emancipation Proclamation,

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Speaker 1: so a consortium of things, UM, the Union Army began

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Speaker 1: actively pursuing the recruitment of black soldiers. There were black

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Speaker 1: people who served ambolitias and in the military UM and

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Speaker 1: there's a history of women serving as nurses and that

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Speaker 1: sort of thing, but at this point it was when

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Speaker 1: black people were encouraged to enlist. So you might have

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Speaker 1: her at the term buffalo soldier in other contexts, but

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Speaker 1: they were black soldiers who served largely in the West

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Speaker 1: just after the Civil War, because in eighteen sixty six,

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Speaker 1: the Army Reorganization Act authorized the creation of black regiments

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Speaker 1: with black enlisted men and white officers. So there's still

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Speaker 1: the element of hierarchy and uh supremacy, but there were

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Speaker 1: several black cavalry and infantry regiments that were established at

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Speaker 1: that point and serving in the army. Even though we

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Speaker 1: mented the quote unquote contraband who were exploited for their labor.

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Speaker 1: It was work, and if you think about it in

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Speaker 1: context of what their lives and conditions were like while

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Speaker 1: they were an under enslavement. Um, there was money, there

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Speaker 1: was food, there was shelter, and serving in the army

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Speaker 1: had a lot of draw for enslaved people who were

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Speaker 1: newly freed, but at the same time, women were still

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Speaker 1: specifically forbidden from serving in the military. They contributed to

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Speaker 1: the war effort in other ways as nurses and cooks.

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Speaker 1: But more than four people who were assigned female at

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Speaker 1: birth fought in the Union and Confederate armies during the

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Speaker 1: Civil War. So just to reiterate here that we can

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Speaker 1: only speculate at their gender identity because where it's not

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Speaker 1: known are explicitly stated. Um. So they would do things

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Speaker 1: like buying their breasts, cut their hair, and take different

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Speaker 1: names to be able to participate in the army. So

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Speaker 1: there's a long history of people who cross dressed in

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Speaker 1: a long history of people trans people in the military

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Speaker 1: and the militias in the U S generally, But um

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Speaker 1: Cathay Williams enlisted in St. Louis in November of eighteen

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Speaker 1: sixty six under the name William Cathy or William Cathay. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: I love it. I love its true. I don't think

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Speaker 1: I guess I could have gone with Reese. I couldn't

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Speaker 1: be Reese. Any good doesn't work. No, I like it.

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Speaker 1: I like it all right. I like looking off into

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Speaker 1: the distance as you say, like, what could she an?

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Speaker 1: I actually really like that. I tried really really hard

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Speaker 1: to get Reese to stick, uh, and it didn't. And

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Speaker 1: then I tried really really hard to get my middle name,

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Speaker 1: Hollis to stick, and then it backfired because kids are mean. Um,

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Speaker 1: So you know, maybe a pen name in the future,

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Speaker 1: I'll just switch. I'm here for it. This is a

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Speaker 1: fun conversation. Uh. Yeah. So her enlistment papers have her

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Speaker 1: at twenty two years old at the time. They said

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Speaker 1: that she had black eyes, black hair, and black complexion,

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Speaker 1: and was five nine inches tall, which was something that

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Speaker 1: worked in her favor at the time because the way

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Speaker 1: they described physical exams it seems like they weren't that

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Speaker 1: extensive UM and that being tall was a plus on

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Speaker 1: the short list of things that got people to be

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Speaker 1: able to be UM enlisted. So she might have joined

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Speaker 1: the army because it allowed her to have a better

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Speaker 1: life than what she would have had otherwise, and that

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Speaker 1: it would have also allowed her to live independently, which

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Speaker 1: is something that she stated that she wanted in her

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Speaker 1: life to be able to do her own thing, make

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Speaker 1: her own money, and support herself. She enlisted voluntarily for

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Speaker 1: a three year term, but she only starved for a

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Speaker 1: little more than two years in the thirty eight U. S.

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Speaker 1: Infantry Company A, which was a black unit. She went

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Speaker 1: with her regiment to Fort Riley, to Fort Harker, to

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Speaker 1: Fort Union and Fort Cummings in New Mexico. Um and

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Speaker 1: life was tough like it was for other people. The

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Speaker 1: environment was rough, um, there was racism, and then they

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Speaker 1: faced illnesses like cholera, so things coming from many directions.

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Speaker 1: But while she was serving, she actually caught smallpox and

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Speaker 1: other illnesses and was frequently hospitalized. And while she was

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Speaker 1: in Fort Bayern in New Mexico, she was diagnosed with neuralgia,

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Speaker 1: which is pain caused by irritated or damaged nerve. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: so this is the thing that is prominent in her story,

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Speaker 1: just like her frequently being in the hospital and talking

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Speaker 1: about the illnesses that she had and what her condition was.

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Speaker 1: And in October of eighteen sixty eight, she was discharged

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Speaker 1: from the army. Um. There was a story about Kes

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Speaker 1: Williams that was published in the St. Louis Daily Times

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Speaker 1: in January of nineteen seventy six. Um she said that

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Speaker 1: she quote got tired and it to get off, meaning

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Speaker 1: that you get out of the army. So she quote

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Speaker 1: plate sick um and so she reported pains in her

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Speaker 1: side and rheumatism and her knees. And she also said

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Speaker 1: that the post surgeon quote found out I was a woman,

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Speaker 1: and I got my discharge. The men all wanted to

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Speaker 1: get rid of me after they found out I was

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Speaker 1: a woman. Some of them acted real bad to me.

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Speaker 1: So it's not really clear what she meant by real bad. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: that's so disheartening, you know. Yeah, when someone finds out

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Speaker 1: your your gender or how you identifying and then they

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Speaker 1: just all turn on you. Presumably you would have had

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Speaker 1: some friends or something in this their soldiers, and usually

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Speaker 1: there's a bonds that form. But yeah, doesn't sound like

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Speaker 1: too many people stuck by Cathay's side. Yeah, it's a

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Speaker 1: lot that's left to the imagination there, So not really

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Speaker 1: clear what real bad means. How many people knew how that,

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Speaker 1: how how that happened? You know, what the actual instance

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Speaker 1: of finding quote unquote finding out you know, mint to

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Speaker 1: mint and what that looks like. So but yeah, just

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Speaker 1: the men saying the men all wanted to get rid

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Speaker 1: of me, could have could have been ostensibly could have

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Speaker 1: been something that could have been very violent, you know. Um,

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Speaker 1: so I'm not really sure about that. But her discharge

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Speaker 1: papers used masculine pronounce to refer to her. There is

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Speaker 1: no evidence that she ever saw direct combat during her

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Speaker 1: years in the thirty eight And then after she was discharged,

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Speaker 1: she became a cook at Fort Union and later moved

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Speaker 1: to Pointblo, Colorado. So yeah, that's her story kind of

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Speaker 1: heads back in that direction after her time spent in

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Speaker 1: the military, and there are stories of her helping out

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Speaker 1: her fellow soldiers and stuff like that, but has been

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Speaker 1: said that a lot of it could be inflated in

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Speaker 1: order to make her into this kind of heroic figure. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: but she married a man. There's there's a story of

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Speaker 1: her marrying a man and he robbed her and she

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Speaker 1: had him arrested. Um, we're Samantha and I are nothing. Yes,

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Speaker 1: have him arrested. Yes, it was like I got the

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Speaker 1: real time reaction to the story. Her head. No, the

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Speaker 1: whole together were yes. Um. Yeah, So her toes were

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Speaker 1: amputated at a point and she walked with a crutch. Um.

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Speaker 1: And she applied for a disability pension based her military

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Speaker 1: service around after she was hospitalized. Her request for pension

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Speaker 1: was not approved um, unlike other women who have previously

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Speaker 1: or who had otherwise served in the military who who

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Speaker 1: did get pension. But the pension bureau says she didn't

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Speaker 1: have a disability and that her discharge certificate said that

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Speaker 1: her condition predated her time in the military, so she

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Speaker 1: was ineligible. But at this point, the details of the

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Speaker 1: rest of her life are fuzzy and pretty much unknown.

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Speaker 1: Her exact date of death is unknown, um, but it

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Speaker 1: was believed that she died shortly after her pension was

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Speaker 1: denied or sometime between. Dred. She is upsetting because that

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Speaker 1: is I mean, I don't know how accurate this is,

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Speaker 1: but it gives me the impression she could have perhaps

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Speaker 1: lived longer if that hadn't been denied. Yeah. I think

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Speaker 1: that that's definitely kind of how this story with the

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00:22:00,240 --> 00:22:02,399
Speaker 1: story leads us to believe, because there's so much missing

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Speaker 1: in between. Um. But yeah, and knowing what we do,

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Speaker 1: I guess about I mean, I guess we still don't

348
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Speaker 1: even really know that much about how much her illness

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Speaker 1: has affected her, but um, yeah, it's I really do

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Speaker 1: wish that that a lot of that stuff was was

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Speaker 1: known um about her life, because it's unclear what happened then,

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Speaker 1: and we're also not sure exactly how she looked, Like

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Speaker 1: there are some guesses how she looked, but not sure

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Speaker 1: exactly how she looked um. And people have also going

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Speaker 1: back to the point about, you know, her reports and

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Speaker 1: tales of her heroic acts. I think people have called

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Speaker 1: into question the significance of her legacy in general and

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Speaker 1: like inflating her like they're inflating her status to this

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Speaker 1: larger than life heroic figure and saying that other black

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Speaker 1: women likely did the same same thing at the time

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Speaker 1: and just didn't have their words documented, which probably is

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Speaker 1: the case. Um saying that stories of her heroic acts

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Speaker 1: with fellow soldiers have been really played up. But there's

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Speaker 1: also the viewpoint that she didn't have to be a

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Speaker 1: hero or you know, flip the world upside down to

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Speaker 1: be talked about today like we're talking about her today. Yeah, yeah,

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Speaker 1: I would say that. I mean, we don't we don't

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Speaker 1: hear a lot of these stories in any case. UM,

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Speaker 1: And as as we often say, when you bring us

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Speaker 1: these women eves, it's always kind of like, well, ha,

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Speaker 1: I hadn't I heard of this person earlier? UM. Yeah,

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Speaker 1: And it's good to paint like a broader picture of

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Speaker 1: just people who were doing these things. UM. It could

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Speaker 1: be nice to have if if, in fact, which definitely

375
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Speaker 1: is the case, that more people were doing this, more

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Speaker 1: women were doing this, UM, and trans people and all

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00:24:05,320 --> 00:24:07,600
Speaker 1: all of that, it would be nice to have like

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00:24:07,640 --> 00:24:11,359
Speaker 1: that broader picture. But we're just missing so much history

379
00:24:11,359 --> 00:24:14,600
Speaker 1: and so much information, right. I think one of the

380
00:24:14,720 --> 00:24:17,000
Speaker 1: big things to these stories is it's not it's not

381
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Speaker 1: just a story, and it's not something that was to

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Speaker 1: them significant necessarily, Like there's probably more women and more

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Speaker 1: trans and more quit women that were doing these things

384
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Speaker 1: just because there was no other option, kind of like

385
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Speaker 1: how we UM talk about sometimes with kids in military today,

386
00:24:33,040 --> 00:24:35,959
Speaker 1: which is not at all the same situation, but they

387
00:24:36,000 --> 00:24:39,000
Speaker 1: don't know a better option. And for that time, we

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Speaker 1: don't know exactly where she was or where people were

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Speaker 1: in their lives that they had to. And I can't imagine,

390
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Speaker 1: especially during the Civil War, when your role is defined

391
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Speaker 1: in such a minute way anyway, and you've been dismissed

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Speaker 1: as an actual person, as actually human for so long

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Speaker 1: that you're having to trying to put yourself somehow. So

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Speaker 1: the significance that she could endure so much during this

395
00:25:05,840 --> 00:25:11,960
Speaker 1: time alone is historical. Yeah, yeah, I think. So. We

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Speaker 1: do have a little bit more for you listeners, but

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Speaker 1: first we have one more cup break for a word

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Speaker 1: from our sponsors, and we're back to thank you sponsors.

399
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Speaker 1: People's stories are complex, and I think that, uh, of

400
00:25:39,280 --> 00:25:42,280
Speaker 1: course we should think about how we remember people, like

401
00:25:42,400 --> 00:25:43,960
Speaker 1: of course, like I feel like that's what we talked

402
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Speaker 1: about in first, because um, there there are so many

403
00:25:47,720 --> 00:25:51,800
Speaker 1: social implications of what a first is like there's there's

404
00:25:51,800 --> 00:25:54,840
Speaker 1: already enough around that, so I think, um, I do

405
00:25:55,640 --> 00:26:00,119
Speaker 1: try to be careful around treat exalting a person, are

406
00:26:00,160 --> 00:26:02,440
Speaker 1: putting a person on the pedestal just because they are first,

407
00:26:02,440 --> 00:26:04,320
Speaker 1: because there are a lot of first that people and

408
00:26:04,720 --> 00:26:06,719
Speaker 1: not Like I think it's obvious to everyone who's been

409
00:26:06,760 --> 00:26:10,280
Speaker 1: listening to this series so far that like, most of

410
00:26:10,280 --> 00:26:13,600
Speaker 1: the people have done good things we would consider quote

411
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Speaker 1: unquote good are morally good or um technically really cool

412
00:26:20,960 --> 00:26:30,119
Speaker 1: and official term officially cool and definitely keeping it in

413
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Speaker 1: that room because there are a lot of first that

414
00:26:31,800 --> 00:26:35,679
Speaker 1: we don't and wouldn't speak about that are you know,

415
00:26:36,000 --> 00:26:39,680
Speaker 1: different contextually. Um. But also trying not to even though

416
00:26:39,680 --> 00:26:42,960
Speaker 1: these people are doing quote officially cool things, that that

417
00:26:43,040 --> 00:26:46,440
Speaker 1: doesn't mean that that their entire lives were ones that

418
00:26:46,520 --> 00:26:51,400
Speaker 1: we should model hours after or want to model hours after,

419
00:26:51,680 --> 00:26:56,880
Speaker 1: or that we should even treat them as heroes because

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00:26:57,600 --> 00:27:01,840
Speaker 1: of things like stories that weren't documented, you know, because

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00:27:01,880 --> 00:27:05,360
Speaker 1: of things like people are whole people that like their

422
00:27:05,440 --> 00:27:10,520
Speaker 1: career wasn't the entirety of their biography. Um. So yeah,

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Speaker 1: we we should definitely And and also a thing that

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00:27:13,080 --> 00:27:15,840
Speaker 1: I will say is that, I mean we we leave

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00:27:15,880 --> 00:27:18,919
Speaker 1: it up to ourselves and to people once they have

426
00:27:19,040 --> 00:27:20,879
Speaker 1: the stories, to take with it and do what they

427
00:27:20,920 --> 00:27:24,320
Speaker 1: want to. There's only so many hours in a day

428
00:27:24,840 --> 00:27:26,879
Speaker 1: and years in a life to be able to study

429
00:27:27,280 --> 00:27:31,960
Speaker 1: people's biography. So it is like, if you're inspired by

430
00:27:31,960 --> 00:27:33,760
Speaker 1: this story and then cool, maybe you want to learn

431
00:27:33,800 --> 00:27:35,359
Speaker 1: a bit a little bit more about it or about

432
00:27:35,440 --> 00:27:39,000
Speaker 1: the context of it, or about similar people. And if

433
00:27:39,040 --> 00:27:44,199
Speaker 1: it's not your cup of tea, then don't don't roll

434
00:27:44,280 --> 00:27:50,040
Speaker 1: with it, but the cup get another cup. Um, maybe

435
00:27:50,040 --> 00:27:52,800
Speaker 1: some coffees did if you were at the cost if

436
00:27:52,800 --> 00:27:57,800
Speaker 1: you want the caffeine, I'm tea person. But yeah, so yeah,

437
00:27:58,200 --> 00:28:00,359
Speaker 1: And I think there are a lot of ways in

438
00:28:00,400 --> 00:28:04,119
Speaker 1: which it's just really interesting about who we choose to

439
00:28:04,160 --> 00:28:07,359
Speaker 1: talk about and who we choosed to remember and sort

440
00:28:07,400 --> 00:28:12,320
Speaker 1: of focus on. And I feel many ways about about

441
00:28:12,359 --> 00:28:16,639
Speaker 1: the situation, specifically around Kathy Williams, because I'm not a

442
00:28:16,720 --> 00:28:20,200
Speaker 1: historian of her life or historian period, but I think

443
00:28:20,359 --> 00:28:24,159
Speaker 1: I have the grace, Like I think that I have

444
00:28:24,240 --> 00:28:27,399
Speaker 1: the grace to be able to say that I have

445
00:28:27,480 --> 00:28:29,760
Speaker 1: a right to feel at a way about it, just personally.

446
00:28:30,160 --> 00:28:33,000
Speaker 1: And it just kind of reeks of only wanting to

447
00:28:33,040 --> 00:28:37,119
Speaker 1: give black women and black people the bare minimum, kind

448
00:28:37,119 --> 00:28:39,880
Speaker 1: of just like the idea that so many black stories

449
00:28:39,920 --> 00:28:41,720
Speaker 1: are unworthy of telling and they have to hit this

450
00:28:41,800 --> 00:28:44,560
Speaker 1: certain point to be able to be worthy of telling.

451
00:28:44,720 --> 00:28:48,080
Speaker 1: And it's just like so many stories like williams Is

452
00:28:48,200 --> 00:28:53,400
Speaker 1: have gone untold, um and there's not really a need

453
00:28:53,440 --> 00:28:55,480
Speaker 1: to embellish or make it more than it was. But

454
00:28:55,600 --> 00:28:58,440
Speaker 1: I'm cool with that, Like I'm cool with an okay story.

455
00:29:00,040 --> 00:29:01,480
Speaker 1: I might be a little bit more bluesy when it

456
00:29:01,480 --> 00:29:03,360
Speaker 1: comes to actual film. I am not cool with an

457
00:29:03,400 --> 00:29:07,680
Speaker 1: okay story if I'm wan television story. But I was

458
00:29:07,720 --> 00:29:11,120
Speaker 1: gonna say, you don't like the based on story versions

459
00:29:11,160 --> 00:29:15,200
Speaker 1: based on the true story? Um yeah, but it's you

460
00:29:15,240 --> 00:29:17,640
Speaker 1: don't need to embellish it. But we can still uplift

461
00:29:18,200 --> 00:29:20,720
Speaker 1: her story. It doesn't have to be we don't have

462
00:29:20,720 --> 00:29:25,080
Speaker 1: to put on a pillastal necessarily. And I'm here for

463
00:29:25,360 --> 00:29:29,480
Speaker 1: telling stories. I'm here for telling the stories of black

464
00:29:29,520 --> 00:29:32,280
Speaker 1: people that may have been mediocre at what they did.

465
00:29:33,280 --> 00:29:36,200
Speaker 1: You know, like being a first and being mediocre aren't

466
00:29:36,200 --> 00:29:41,520
Speaker 1: necessarily mutually exclusive. I mean that's true. To work out

467
00:29:41,520 --> 00:29:43,520
Speaker 1: the you know, you have to work out the details

468
00:29:43,560 --> 00:29:46,520
Speaker 1: and get it right for the next person. Yeah. Yeah,

469
00:29:47,360 --> 00:29:49,800
Speaker 1: And I think it's wrapped into kind of this expectation

470
00:29:49,840 --> 00:29:53,240
Speaker 1: for black folks to be superhuman, and when they fall

471
00:29:53,240 --> 00:29:55,200
Speaker 1: short of that, we might as well not even you know,

472
00:29:55,280 --> 00:29:56,640
Speaker 1: you might as well just throw them in the trash

473
00:29:56,640 --> 00:30:01,120
Speaker 1: can of history. Um yeah. So like all that said

474
00:30:01,160 --> 00:30:02,880
Speaker 1: to going back to the first thing, it's like we

475
00:30:02,880 --> 00:30:05,880
Speaker 1: can take first with the grain of salt. We can

476
00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:08,720
Speaker 1: we can just treat them as an entry point. Um.

477
00:30:08,800 --> 00:30:13,040
Speaker 1: And in contemporary terms, like Cathy Williams's time during that time,

478
00:30:13,440 --> 00:30:16,480
Speaker 1: she may not have been that remarkable like they're very

479
00:30:16,480 --> 00:30:19,560
Speaker 1: well could have been, and probably where other black women

480
00:30:19,600 --> 00:30:23,160
Speaker 1: who did the same thing. And even if we knew

481
00:30:23,160 --> 00:30:25,920
Speaker 1: a little bit more or a lot more about Cathay

482
00:30:25,920 --> 00:30:30,120
Speaker 1: Williams's story then compared those to other black women UM

483
00:30:30,240 --> 00:30:33,320
Speaker 1: or black queer people who served in the military at

484
00:30:33,360 --> 00:30:37,080
Speaker 1: the time, maybe hers wasn't as didn't have as many

485
00:30:37,080 --> 00:30:39,840
Speaker 1: twists and turns. Who knows, UM, And she may not

486
00:30:39,920 --> 00:30:43,000
Speaker 1: have even been the first, you know, but the the

487
00:30:43,040 --> 00:30:45,840
Speaker 1: first document is what we have, UM, So you can

488
00:30:45,880 --> 00:30:50,080
Speaker 1: decide for yourself whose story is we're delving into for

489
00:30:50,160 --> 00:30:55,680
Speaker 1: you personally, and that can be what it is, you know,

490
00:30:56,320 --> 00:30:58,440
Speaker 1: that could be what it is. I think a lot

491
00:30:58,440 --> 00:31:00,720
Speaker 1: of these stories that we say and that you bring

492
00:31:00,760 --> 00:31:03,320
Speaker 1: to us, it's not necessarily what we're talking about as

493
00:31:03,360 --> 00:31:06,959
Speaker 1: the individual, but kind of the connotation of society at

494
00:31:07,000 --> 00:31:09,000
Speaker 1: that time and even at this time, of who they're

495
00:31:09,000 --> 00:31:11,800
Speaker 1: willing to talk about, who they're willing to acknowledge, and

496
00:31:12,000 --> 00:31:14,760
Speaker 1: how they're willing to acknowledge it. That's also the bigger

497
00:31:15,160 --> 00:31:17,320
Speaker 1: not a bigger, but that's also a significant impact to

498
00:31:17,480 --> 00:31:20,160
Speaker 1: these stories. It's not so much that not always trying

499
00:31:20,160 --> 00:31:22,240
Speaker 1: to find out big stories. It's just that they're unwilling

500
00:31:22,240 --> 00:31:23,880
Speaker 1: to tell the story. So trying to get that story

501
00:31:23,920 --> 00:31:26,440
Speaker 1: to begin with, you have to garner that interest, which

502
00:31:26,480 --> 00:31:29,200
Speaker 1: is absurd in itself, because yeah, it doesn't have to

503
00:31:29,240 --> 00:31:33,000
Speaker 1: be uh, you know, I blew up a whole tank

504
00:31:33,080 --> 00:31:35,560
Speaker 1: or you know, a village and rescued all these people

505
00:31:35,600 --> 00:31:38,120
Speaker 1: and blah blah blah. You know that type of story

506
00:31:38,360 --> 00:31:40,360
Speaker 1: to be significant. You watched that story I got. I'm

507
00:31:40,360 --> 00:31:43,000
Speaker 1: gonna start this one, um, but you know, those big

508
00:31:43,000 --> 00:31:46,600
Speaker 1: significance to be heard or to be seen and the

509
00:31:46,640 --> 00:31:49,560
Speaker 1: problem of what was happening at that point in time

510
00:31:49,600 --> 00:31:54,120
Speaker 1: and again her life kind of turning into dissipating essentially

511
00:31:54,160 --> 00:31:56,520
Speaker 1: and not going exactly what happened with whom and her

512
00:31:56,560 --> 00:31:58,680
Speaker 1: being not being the first, but she's just being the

513
00:31:58,720 --> 00:32:01,440
Speaker 1: first to be noticed. And it is again like an

514
00:32:01,440 --> 00:32:04,160
Speaker 1: impact of like what society is trying to say, is

515
00:32:04,200 --> 00:32:10,560
Speaker 1: it significant? Isn't m h um and and we that's

516
00:32:10,560 --> 00:32:14,600
Speaker 1: something we still talk about today when as you were saying,

517
00:32:14,680 --> 00:32:21,000
Speaker 1: Eves that to me, like say a movie with all

518
00:32:21,160 --> 00:32:24,320
Speaker 1: women casts are all black cast, are all black women cast?

519
00:32:24,640 --> 00:32:26,680
Speaker 1: Comes out and there's so much pressure on it to

520
00:32:26,760 --> 00:32:30,640
Speaker 1: perform well and be this amazing thing or else they'll

521
00:32:30,680 --> 00:32:33,560
Speaker 1: never make another one again, whereas there's just movie after

522
00:32:33,640 --> 00:32:38,240
Speaker 1: movie after movie that's just mediocre white dudes, and there's

523
00:32:38,280 --> 00:32:41,520
Speaker 1: not that same level of it of expectation. And I

524
00:32:41,560 --> 00:32:44,000
Speaker 1: would love to live in a world where you know,

525
00:32:44,160 --> 00:32:51,160
Speaker 1: there's tons of mediocre movies of all kinds. Yeah, well,

526
00:32:51,200 --> 00:32:59,680
Speaker 1: I mean horror movie mind Dalvin. Yeah, yeah, so I

527
00:32:59,760 --> 00:33:03,120
Speaker 1: have definitely with you on on all these points, Eves

528
00:33:03,120 --> 00:33:06,680
Speaker 1: that I'm glad that you brought this story story to

529
00:33:06,840 --> 00:33:12,440
Speaker 1: us today. Yeah. It also reminds me if anyone is

530
00:33:12,480 --> 00:33:15,960
Speaker 1: a nerd like me and likes writing prompts, I have

531
00:33:16,080 --> 00:33:19,520
Speaker 1: one for you because when I took the g I e.

532
00:33:20,200 --> 00:33:24,320
Speaker 1: Thes ago Um, there was a writing essay promp where

533
00:33:24,320 --> 00:33:29,080
Speaker 1: it was can heroes ever exist in a world where

534
00:33:29,120 --> 00:33:32,600
Speaker 1: you know almost everything about them? And I still think

535
00:33:32,640 --> 00:33:36,360
Speaker 1: about that to this day. I still think about it. Well,

536
00:33:36,400 --> 00:33:39,760
Speaker 1: that's because cancel culture quote unquote cancel culture and calling

537
00:33:39,800 --> 00:33:42,280
Speaker 1: in and calling out and all of that. I feel

538
00:33:42,280 --> 00:33:45,920
Speaker 1: like it's wrapped up in that, and it's easy to

539
00:33:45,960 --> 00:33:49,240
Speaker 1: slap that into the conversation as well. Yeah, I mean

540
00:33:49,280 --> 00:33:53,640
Speaker 1: that's true because this was definitely a decade ago, I think,

541
00:33:54,280 --> 00:33:56,880
Speaker 1: so I would have even more new thoughts. Maybe I'll

542
00:33:56,960 --> 00:33:59,880
Speaker 1: take my own essay prompt, well where did you land? Like?

543
00:34:00,200 --> 00:34:03,360
Speaker 1: I don't know if you can articulate that simply right

544
00:34:03,400 --> 00:34:05,880
Speaker 1: now or you need that, you need the pen in

545
00:34:05,920 --> 00:34:10,120
Speaker 1: the paper to get that out. But I can't. I

546
00:34:10,160 --> 00:34:15,440
Speaker 1: can't be as prolific and beautifully written as that was.

547
00:34:15,960 --> 00:34:19,319
Speaker 1: But I believe what I arrived at was there. There

548
00:34:19,360 --> 00:34:23,120
Speaker 1: can be no heroes in the terms that I think

549
00:34:23,120 --> 00:34:24,839
Speaker 1: a lot of people think of them, but if we

550
00:34:24,960 --> 00:34:32,880
Speaker 1: change how we define hero that they can definitely still exist. Um. Basically,

551
00:34:32,880 --> 00:34:39,320
Speaker 1: it's harder because UH people are if you know everything

552
00:34:39,320 --> 00:34:41,040
Speaker 1: about them, they're going to let you down in some ways.

553
00:34:41,360 --> 00:34:46,319
Speaker 1: That's just x um. But that doesn't mean that they

554
00:34:46,360 --> 00:34:51,080
Speaker 1: can't be a champion for UH causes you believe in

555
00:34:51,120 --> 00:34:55,000
Speaker 1: and helping out others and uplifting others and what their

556
00:34:55,040 --> 00:35:00,239
Speaker 1: actions can help others. And that's in my opinion heroic. Yeah,

557
00:35:00,520 --> 00:35:04,160
Speaker 1: I feel that, but this is probably a whole whole

558
00:35:04,160 --> 00:35:06,120
Speaker 1: other conversation. But I do think it's still relevant to

559
00:35:06,120 --> 00:35:08,200
Speaker 1: get they Williams. Since we were getting into the hero

560
00:35:08,400 --> 00:35:13,080
Speaker 1: talk but it's easy to react viscerally and emotionally to

561
00:35:13,440 --> 00:35:15,799
Speaker 1: that one thing in a person's life that may turn

562
00:35:15,880 --> 00:35:18,400
Speaker 1: you all from all of the other acts you considered,

563
00:35:18,920 --> 00:35:24,880
Speaker 1: even if it's not logical, if it's not, if it doesn't,

564
00:35:25,480 --> 00:35:28,440
Speaker 1: if you still know deep inside that you respect that

565
00:35:28,480 --> 00:35:30,560
Speaker 1: person for the other contributions that they have made to

566
00:35:30,560 --> 00:35:34,440
Speaker 1: the world, into society's and maybe to your own community,

567
00:35:34,440 --> 00:35:37,160
Speaker 1: and maybe to you specifically, that if you learn something

568
00:35:37,200 --> 00:35:40,440
Speaker 1: about someone that just kind of taints their whole history,

569
00:35:40,520 --> 00:35:43,120
Speaker 1: are all the things that they've done, it's hard to

570
00:35:43,160 --> 00:35:44,960
Speaker 1: brush that aside because it just lives in the pit

571
00:35:45,000 --> 00:35:47,920
Speaker 1: of you. And sometimes you can't, and sometimes you shouldn't.

572
00:35:48,360 --> 00:35:51,080
Speaker 1: You shouldn't is a weird word, but sometimes you should.

573
00:35:51,120 --> 00:35:54,000
Speaker 1: Definitely you should not dismiss a thing. You should have

574
00:35:54,040 --> 00:35:56,839
Speaker 1: to using a lot of ships. I feel like I

575
00:35:56,880 --> 00:35:59,759
Speaker 1: would think you have to sit with that, into you

576
00:35:59,840 --> 00:36:05,040
Speaker 1: with that. Yeah, so they're complicated, you know, issues to

577
00:36:05,320 --> 00:36:07,880
Speaker 1: end on this. That's the opposite realm where they just

578
00:36:07,920 --> 00:36:10,440
Speaker 1: turn a blind eye to everything because you want them

579
00:36:10,480 --> 00:36:14,800
Speaker 1: to be the ultimate heroes. Therefore, not only to excuse them,

580
00:36:14,840 --> 00:36:18,439
Speaker 1: you will not allow for others to see anything beyond that. Either,

581
00:36:18,680 --> 00:36:21,080
Speaker 1: and that is the opposite of that, and you this

582
00:36:21,200 --> 00:36:24,640
Speaker 1: hero worship, this god worship of people who are very,

583
00:36:24,760 --> 00:36:30,000
Speaker 1: very fallible. Yeah, oh yeah, this is very simple of me.

584
00:36:30,160 --> 00:36:32,640
Speaker 1: But this just remaded me of like my favorite musicians

585
00:36:32,680 --> 00:36:36,319
Speaker 1: who can do no wrong. In my eyes, I don't

586
00:36:36,360 --> 00:36:39,160
Speaker 1: really like that album, but I don't care. You know,

587
00:36:40,040 --> 00:36:41,680
Speaker 1: the album like had a lot of songs that I

588
00:36:41,760 --> 00:36:45,400
Speaker 1: sk it, but you know, I don't see it, you

589
00:36:45,600 --> 00:36:51,640
Speaker 1: don't see it. I don't know. I love this really.

590
00:36:52,040 --> 00:36:56,920
Speaker 1: Kathay Williams has brought up a lot of yeah, well

591
00:36:57,160 --> 00:37:00,640
Speaker 1: theoretical ideas. Yeah, I would love I'm gonna I'm gonna

592
00:37:00,680 --> 00:37:03,720
Speaker 1: think more on this hero essay now that I'm older,

593
00:37:04,400 --> 00:37:05,839
Speaker 1: and I would love if for listeners, you know, if

594
00:37:05,840 --> 00:37:10,839
Speaker 1: you're looking for an essay prompt sending, Oh I had

595
00:37:10,840 --> 00:37:14,759
Speaker 1: a little bit more, I'm sorry. Oh it's probably not much.

596
00:37:15,040 --> 00:37:18,440
Speaker 1: It's not much. We're okay much, But I just want

597
00:37:18,440 --> 00:37:22,719
Speaker 1: to add this just contextually, just for the story. I mean,

598
00:37:22,760 --> 00:37:24,920
Speaker 1: there's a lot that we can study and think about

599
00:37:24,960 --> 00:37:28,520
Speaker 1: today in terms of gender in the military. Um, there

600
00:37:28,520 --> 00:37:32,719
Speaker 1: are topical, very relevant issues today. UM that I think

601
00:37:32,760 --> 00:37:37,520
Speaker 1: that Cathay Williams's story can lead to um, and also

602
00:37:37,560 --> 00:37:40,920
Speaker 1: think about in terms of contemporary times when Cathy Williams

603
00:37:40,920 --> 00:37:44,240
Speaker 1: was alive, the fact that she and other quote unquote

604
00:37:44,280 --> 00:37:47,719
Speaker 1: contraband we're freed and then exploited to labor by the

605
00:37:47,800 --> 00:37:50,440
Speaker 1: supposed or who we would think of as the good

606
00:37:50,440 --> 00:37:53,280
Speaker 1: white people, like the good the people who we considered

607
00:37:53,320 --> 00:37:57,000
Speaker 1: to be morally upstanding. And what's that means um for

608
00:37:57,080 --> 00:38:00,120
Speaker 1: you and generally what it means to have served for

609
00:38:00,200 --> 00:38:03,880
Speaker 1: the US um as a black person, whether it was

610
00:38:03,960 --> 00:38:07,359
Speaker 1: out of principle or the need to survive, so whether

611
00:38:07,400 --> 00:38:08,759
Speaker 1: it was a moral thing for you or whether it

612
00:38:08,840 --> 00:38:13,279
Speaker 1: was existential thing for you. So it's very complicated. And

613
00:38:13,320 --> 00:38:16,319
Speaker 1: also want to say that it wasn't until nineteen when

614
00:38:16,320 --> 00:38:19,520
Speaker 1: the Women's arm Service Integration Act allowed women to serve

615
00:38:19,560 --> 00:38:22,960
Speaker 1: as permanent regular members of the Armed forces in all

616
00:38:23,000 --> 00:38:27,440
Speaker 1: branches of the military. So in the end, Cathay Williams

617
00:38:27,920 --> 00:38:32,240
Speaker 1: has gotten recognition regardless of the complications around her legacy.

618
00:38:32,280 --> 00:38:35,239
Speaker 1: In terms of twenty six she was honored with the

619
00:38:35,320 --> 00:38:39,080
Speaker 1: bronze bust in Kansas outside of the Richard Allen Cultural

620
00:38:39,120 --> 00:38:44,440
Speaker 1: Center and they declared Friday, July sixteen Cathy Williams Day.

621
00:38:44,520 --> 00:38:48,319
Speaker 1: So that's something um to to mention in terms of

622
00:38:48,320 --> 00:38:50,759
Speaker 1: how we think about her legacy and and how she

623
00:38:50,840 --> 00:38:58,239
Speaker 1: was recognized. But yeah, that's all I got that absolutely. UM,

624
00:38:58,280 --> 00:39:01,000
Speaker 1: thank you, thank you for very this story to us

625
00:39:01,040 --> 00:39:07,319
Speaker 1: and having an early Wednesday morning chat. Uh. Where can

626
00:39:07,360 --> 00:39:10,640
Speaker 1: the good listeners find you? You can find me online

627
00:39:10,640 --> 00:39:13,399
Speaker 1: on Twitter I'm at Eves Jeff Code. On Instagram I'm

628
00:39:13,400 --> 00:39:15,879
Speaker 1: at not Apologizing. You can also listen to me on

629
00:39:15,920 --> 00:39:18,840
Speaker 1: This Day in History Class, which is a daily show

630
00:39:18,880 --> 00:39:22,759
Speaker 1: about history that talks about not Cathay Williams specifically, but

631
00:39:22,880 --> 00:39:27,360
Speaker 1: other people in history who have interesting stories and um,

632
00:39:27,400 --> 00:39:30,439
Speaker 1: other events that happen in history. And also Unpopular, which

633
00:39:30,480 --> 00:39:34,279
Speaker 1: is a show about people who were often persecuted for

634
00:39:34,440 --> 00:39:37,000
Speaker 1: standing up for the things that they believed in. And

635
00:39:37,120 --> 00:39:42,120
Speaker 1: you can learn about other cool biographies and histories there.

636
00:39:43,239 --> 00:39:48,399
Speaker 1: Technically cool, technically cool. I'm going to use that in

637
00:39:48,440 --> 00:39:54,399
Speaker 1: my every day now, so thanks for that as well. UM,

638
00:39:54,480 --> 00:39:58,200
Speaker 1: And you can email us listeners send your essays about

639
00:39:58,239 --> 00:40:02,200
Speaker 1: heroes are away. Um. Our email is Stuff Media mom

640
00:40:02,239 --> 00:40:04,520
Speaker 1: Stuff at i heeart media dot com. You can find

641
00:40:04,560 --> 00:40:06,400
Speaker 1: us on Instagram at Stuff I've Never Told You are

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Speaker 1: on Twitter at mom Stuff Podcast. Thanks as always to

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Speaker 1: our super producer Andrew Howard, thank you and thanks to

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Speaker 1: you for listening stuff I never told you his production

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Speaker 1: of I Heart Radio. For more podcast from My Heart Radio,

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Speaker 1: visit I Heard Radio app, Apple podcast or revery. Listen

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Speaker 1: to favorite ships,