1 00:00:08,480 --> 00:00:21,800 Speaker 1: Bodybags with Joseph Scott Morgan. When you're in a relationship 2 00:00:21,840 --> 00:00:25,040 Speaker 1: with someone, and I mean like a deep, abiding relationship 3 00:00:25,079 --> 00:00:27,520 Speaker 1: where you've known each other for a long time, and 4 00:00:27,920 --> 00:00:32,680 Speaker 1: there's something about a kiss that conveys a warmth and intimacy, certainly, 5 00:00:32,840 --> 00:00:35,120 Speaker 1: but you know what's even better than that a hug. 6 00:00:35,360 --> 00:00:37,760 Speaker 1: As a matter of fact, my wife, though she does 7 00:00:37,880 --> 00:00:40,159 Speaker 1: like to kiss, don't get me wrong, she loves a 8 00:00:40,200 --> 00:00:44,040 Speaker 1: good hug. She loves that assurance. I think we all do. 9 00:00:44,159 --> 00:00:46,720 Speaker 1: When grandkids love it, I long to give them, Like 10 00:00:46,840 --> 00:00:51,040 Speaker 1: pride myself on being a hug specialist. There's nothing like it. 11 00:00:51,240 --> 00:00:53,479 Speaker 1: But I was reading the other day in all of 12 00:00:53,520 --> 00:00:56,520 Speaker 1: the research that I do, and something really caught my 13 00:00:56,640 --> 00:01:00,800 Speaker 1: eye about a case that's finally come to Alon, And 14 00:01:00,840 --> 00:01:03,880 Speaker 1: the headline is what got me. It did involve a 15 00:01:04,040 --> 00:01:09,080 Speaker 1: parent and a child, but within this headline, the term 16 00:01:09,319 --> 00:01:14,480 Speaker 1: squeezed to death like a python caught my eye. Curiosity 17 00:01:14,880 --> 00:01:16,360 Speaker 1: got the best of me. I had to read on 18 00:01:16,480 --> 00:01:19,399 Speaker 1: and this case is something that I think is kind 19 00:01:19,400 --> 00:01:23,679 Speaker 1: of an insight into maybe a familial environment, into a 20 00:01:23,800 --> 00:01:27,160 Speaker 1: world that you would not otherwise see. But unfortunately, as 21 00:01:27,560 --> 00:01:31,400 Speaker 1: the world is nowadays, people's family life plays out in 22 00:01:31,400 --> 00:01:33,800 Speaker 1: the news, and it certainly has in this case. Today, 23 00:01:33,920 --> 00:01:38,559 Speaker 1: we're going to talk about a homicide where the daughter 24 00:01:38,920 --> 00:01:42,640 Speaker 1: actually admitted that she squeezed her mother to death like 25 00:01:42,680 --> 00:01:51,880 Speaker 1: a python. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan and this is Bodybags, Dave. 26 00:01:51,960 --> 00:01:53,920 Speaker 1: I'm not soliciting you for a hug. 27 00:01:54,240 --> 00:01:57,360 Speaker 2: Considering where this topic is going, I'm kind of relieved. 28 00:01:57,000 --> 00:02:00,000 Speaker 1: It puts a hole in new light. My wife always 29 00:02:00,040 --> 00:02:02,600 Speaker 1: cases that I cover on television and stuff that, of 30 00:02:02,640 --> 00:02:04,840 Speaker 1: course that we do on Bodybags. Kim will come to 31 00:02:04,880 --> 00:02:06,920 Speaker 1: me every now and then she'll say, I can't get 32 00:02:06,920 --> 00:02:10,160 Speaker 1: that out of my brain because I run everything past her. 33 00:02:10,240 --> 00:02:12,320 Speaker 1: You know, we're a team on everything that we do, 34 00:02:12,440 --> 00:02:14,320 Speaker 1: and you know, you run these cases by her, and 35 00:02:14,800 --> 00:02:19,120 Speaker 1: so anytime something happens like this, it really sticks with 36 00:02:19,200 --> 00:02:22,920 Speaker 1: you and you begin to think about that connotation, don't you. 37 00:02:22,919 --> 00:02:26,200 Speaker 1: You have this warm family environment, and I've heard people say, well, 38 00:02:26,280 --> 00:02:28,840 Speaker 1: we're not huggers in this family, or I'm not a hugger, 39 00:02:29,000 --> 00:02:31,760 Speaker 1: And many times I don't want people putting their hands 40 00:02:31,760 --> 00:02:34,360 Speaker 1: on me. But when it comes to those that I 41 00:02:34,400 --> 00:02:36,680 Speaker 1: love and those that I want to express my love to, 42 00:02:36,840 --> 00:02:38,560 Speaker 1: I'd have to say that I'm a hugger, but in 43 00:02:38,600 --> 00:02:41,840 Speaker 1: this case, oh my lord, how do you generate enough 44 00:02:42,000 --> 00:02:45,640 Speaker 1: power in order to facilitate the death of your mother? 45 00:02:46,080 --> 00:02:49,320 Speaker 2: Never have I heard a term like a python used 46 00:02:49,520 --> 00:02:51,520 Speaker 2: with regard to a loved one or even a friend. 47 00:02:51,600 --> 00:02:54,000 Speaker 2: Usually it's a bear hug, when you give each other 48 00:02:54,040 --> 00:02:56,679 Speaker 2: a bear hug, the big squeeze, a big old bear 49 00:02:56,720 --> 00:02:59,720 Speaker 2: of a hug. Python just means death. It means I'm 50 00:02:59,760 --> 00:03:03,280 Speaker 2: going to hug and squeeze you to death. Which when 51 00:03:03,320 --> 00:03:06,079 Speaker 2: you talk about a hug, and we all do, we're huggers. 52 00:03:06,160 --> 00:03:08,480 Speaker 2: I'm a hugger, But at no point in time have 53 00:03:08,560 --> 00:03:10,720 Speaker 2: I ever hugged anybody hard enough that I hurt my 54 00:03:10,760 --> 00:03:14,320 Speaker 2: own ribs, which is exactly what happened here with Cassandra. 55 00:03:14,600 --> 00:03:17,440 Speaker 2: You's old. I'm thinking Cassandra is thirty three years old, 56 00:03:17,960 --> 00:03:21,720 Speaker 2: and she actually calls nine to one one Joe and says, 57 00:03:21,919 --> 00:03:23,919 Speaker 2: I was in the kitchen and I heard a thud. 58 00:03:24,160 --> 00:03:26,960 Speaker 2: I went in another room and there's my mom laying 59 00:03:27,040 --> 00:03:30,880 Speaker 2: on the floor unconscious. Come help me. To most of us, 60 00:03:31,200 --> 00:03:33,519 Speaker 2: that wouldn't even make sense. That call in and of 61 00:03:33,560 --> 00:03:36,480 Speaker 2: itself makes no sense. There has to be more to it. 62 00:03:36,520 --> 00:03:38,480 Speaker 1: Than that. Let me talk to you right there, because 63 00:03:38,560 --> 00:03:41,440 Speaker 1: you're right. I think that probably the verbiage that she 64 00:03:41,920 --> 00:03:44,560 Speaker 1: may not have followed up with was like my mother 65 00:03:44,640 --> 00:03:47,280 Speaker 1: began gasping for air. My mother was clutching her chest. 66 00:03:47,600 --> 00:03:51,000 Speaker 1: She's sixty nine years old. The mother, Dorothy is sold 67 00:03:51,080 --> 00:03:54,720 Speaker 1: and so I think that maybe if the person that 68 00:03:54,800 --> 00:03:57,640 Speaker 1: called in to nine one one, who is the daughter, 69 00:03:57,960 --> 00:04:01,320 Speaker 1: if she had said something like mom clutching her chest, 70 00:04:01,400 --> 00:04:03,400 Speaker 1: she's sort of breath. She was sitting at the dining 71 00:04:03,480 --> 00:04:07,080 Speaker 1: room table and fud I'd gone into the kitchen to 72 00:04:07,080 --> 00:04:09,000 Speaker 1: get a cool rag or something. But that's not the 73 00:04:09,000 --> 00:04:10,760 Speaker 1: way it happened. I just heard a thud. 74 00:04:11,120 --> 00:04:13,840 Speaker 2: Yeah, that's what I'm saying. It's like, really, that's your call. 75 00:04:14,120 --> 00:04:17,960 Speaker 2: When rescue workers arrive on the scene, they're making mental 76 00:04:17,960 --> 00:04:21,279 Speaker 2: notes that they can then share with other people involved, police, 77 00:04:21,440 --> 00:04:23,360 Speaker 2: by a rescue whoever else is going to be on 78 00:04:23,400 --> 00:04:25,080 Speaker 2: the scene. Correct, Yeah, they are. 79 00:04:25,120 --> 00:04:28,520 Speaker 1: And again I always like to acknowledge these people because 80 00:04:28,560 --> 00:04:30,840 Speaker 1: mostly you just see an ambulance go flying by you 81 00:04:31,480 --> 00:04:33,480 Speaker 1: in the road you're trying to get over to give 82 00:04:33,520 --> 00:04:35,600 Speaker 1: them the right of way and that sort of thing. 83 00:04:35,640 --> 00:04:38,200 Speaker 1: There's a lot of stuff that they see that. Their 84 00:04:38,240 --> 00:04:41,960 Speaker 1: worldview is completely different than that of a police officer 85 00:04:42,440 --> 00:04:45,239 Speaker 1: that's showing up to a scene. Their goal, their mission 86 00:04:46,080 --> 00:04:49,920 Speaker 1: is to rescue, is to save life, is to provide 87 00:04:50,400 --> 00:04:54,000 Speaker 1: para medical attention to an individual. That means outside of 88 00:04:54,000 --> 00:04:57,200 Speaker 1: the clinic, you're going there in an acute situation most 89 00:04:57,200 --> 00:04:59,719 Speaker 1: of the time. And so when you see them when 90 00:04:59,720 --> 00:05:04,479 Speaker 1: they're going into the scene, their assessment is more of 91 00:05:04,600 --> 00:05:08,440 Speaker 1: a clinician where they're trying to determine not is this 92 00:05:08,520 --> 00:05:11,880 Speaker 1: a homicide, is it a suicide or that secondary to 93 00:05:11,920 --> 00:05:15,400 Speaker 1: what they're doing. They're thinking, what can I do to 94 00:05:15,560 --> 00:05:18,880 Speaker 1: keep this person from going to the light? Is essentially 95 00:05:18,920 --> 00:05:20,840 Speaker 1: the way it comes out. And so but there are 96 00:05:20,880 --> 00:05:23,440 Speaker 1: some things that are just glaring when you hear you 97 00:05:23,480 --> 00:05:25,359 Speaker 1: know the call, and I can tell you when the 98 00:05:25,440 --> 00:05:30,159 Speaker 1: call came out from the dispatch, the dispatcher, and I've 99 00:05:30,160 --> 00:05:33,280 Speaker 1: had to read hundreds of run sheets over the course 100 00:05:33,320 --> 00:05:35,239 Speaker 1: of my career with a medical examiner in the corner. 101 00:05:35,279 --> 00:05:37,919 Speaker 1: You subpoena those and you look for any bit of 102 00:05:37,920 --> 00:05:40,720 Speaker 1: tidbits that you can because we don't and it applies 103 00:05:40,720 --> 00:05:43,839 Speaker 1: in homicide cases, but you also look for them in 104 00:05:43,920 --> 00:05:46,200 Speaker 1: natural deaths as well. You just want to see what 105 00:05:46,320 --> 00:05:48,200 Speaker 1: was the initial call, you know, what kind of kicked 106 00:05:48,240 --> 00:05:51,159 Speaker 1: and set everything off, and the call would have come 107 00:05:51,200 --> 00:05:55,720 Speaker 1: out there's an unconscious person. Probably reporter says that they 108 00:05:55,800 --> 00:05:59,719 Speaker 1: heard a noise in the room, so EMTs they don't 109 00:05:59,760 --> 00:06:02,240 Speaker 1: know what they're walking into when they arrived there. The 110 00:06:02,360 --> 00:06:05,279 Speaker 1: operator might still be on the phone with the caller, 111 00:06:05,480 --> 00:06:07,440 Speaker 1: but they don't know what they're going to walk into 112 00:06:07,480 --> 00:06:10,320 Speaker 1: at anytime. It's arguably one of the most people talk 113 00:06:10,360 --> 00:06:13,160 Speaker 1: about how dangerous police jobs are. It is right up 114 00:06:13,160 --> 00:06:16,440 Speaker 1: there with one of the most dangerous things any occupation 115 00:06:16,560 --> 00:06:20,000 Speaker 1: any person can participate in. And they walk into the 116 00:06:20,040 --> 00:06:24,240 Speaker 1: total unknown, and in this particular case, they did. Not 117 00:06:24,279 --> 00:06:28,360 Speaker 1: only was it unknown, I think there was deception involved, 118 00:06:28,480 --> 00:06:30,839 Speaker 1: and that makes it that even kicks it up a notch. 119 00:06:31,000 --> 00:06:33,440 Speaker 1: It's not like somebody says I had a hammer and 120 00:06:33,880 --> 00:06:37,040 Speaker 1: I beat somebody to death. When there's deception going on 121 00:06:37,200 --> 00:06:41,320 Speaker 1: and they're saying something to give you an idea that 122 00:06:41,560 --> 00:06:45,279 Speaker 1: something else occurred than what you're seeing, that's a problem. 123 00:06:45,560 --> 00:06:47,600 Speaker 2: So you would think if the call is I heard 124 00:06:47,640 --> 00:06:50,280 Speaker 2: a thud, went up there and she was unconscious. Now, 125 00:06:50,560 --> 00:06:54,080 Speaker 2: when the medics get their no pulse what does no 126 00:06:54,320 --> 00:06:56,920 Speaker 2: pulse mean with an unconscious person on the grind? Does 127 00:06:56,920 --> 00:06:59,200 Speaker 2: that mean the heart's not beating? Does that mean this 128 00:06:59,240 --> 00:07:01,480 Speaker 2: person is not breathing at all, that nothing's going on. 129 00:07:01,520 --> 00:07:03,680 Speaker 2: They're basically dead and you have to revive them. Is 130 00:07:03,720 --> 00:07:05,360 Speaker 2: that what no pulse means, They're going. 131 00:07:05,360 --> 00:07:08,040 Speaker 1: To go through a code with this individual. And code 132 00:07:08,080 --> 00:07:10,360 Speaker 1: means that if you're ever in a hospital, I'll put 133 00:07:10,360 --> 00:07:11,840 Speaker 1: it to you this way, if you're ever in a hospital, 134 00:07:11,840 --> 00:07:15,400 Speaker 1: and you'll hear them call codes, and traditionally code that 135 00:07:16,000 --> 00:07:18,880 Speaker 1: you hear them when somebody's in cardiac arrest is generally 136 00:07:18,920 --> 00:07:21,680 Speaker 1: a code blue. And when you have code blue, that 137 00:07:21,800 --> 00:07:25,160 Speaker 1: means that an individual on the floor is in cardiac arrest. 138 00:07:25,640 --> 00:07:29,080 Speaker 1: On a truck when they roll out, they arrive there 139 00:07:29,120 --> 00:07:32,720 Speaker 1: and they note that the person they're absent respiration, They 140 00:07:32,760 --> 00:07:35,720 Speaker 1: can't pick up a detectable heartbeat. Person's still warm to 141 00:07:35,800 --> 00:07:38,760 Speaker 1: the touch. Their pupils might be fixed and dilated. You 142 00:07:38,800 --> 00:07:41,720 Speaker 1: don't know what the level of brain activity is at 143 00:07:41,720 --> 00:07:45,000 Speaker 1: that moment. It might be nil. You're not really sure. 144 00:07:45,200 --> 00:07:48,080 Speaker 1: They're still very warm to the touch. You know that 145 00:07:48,120 --> 00:07:50,720 Speaker 1: there's life there. And so this idea of kind of 146 00:07:50,800 --> 00:07:53,040 Speaker 1: drawing them back. So what are they going to do 147 00:07:53,120 --> 00:07:55,720 Speaker 1: well at that moment in time, they're going to walk in. 148 00:07:56,120 --> 00:07:58,600 Speaker 1: They're going to have their crash bag with them, which 149 00:07:58,840 --> 00:08:01,840 Speaker 1: is it's going to have a defibrillator in there. They're 150 00:08:01,840 --> 00:08:03,440 Speaker 1: going to have a round of drugs that they can 151 00:08:03,480 --> 00:08:07,080 Speaker 1: push like epinephrine, where they're going to go directly into 152 00:08:07,160 --> 00:08:10,960 Speaker 1: the heart and try to restart things. They'll do compressions. 153 00:08:10,760 --> 00:08:13,480 Speaker 2: That thing straight to the heart isn't just a movie thing. 154 00:08:13,560 --> 00:08:14,040 Speaker 2: That's real. 155 00:08:14,280 --> 00:08:16,320 Speaker 1: They will try to get in I don't want to 156 00:08:16,320 --> 00:08:18,320 Speaker 1: say straight into the heart because they used to do 157 00:08:18,360 --> 00:08:20,080 Speaker 1: it straight into the heart. Now I think they find 158 00:08:20,120 --> 00:08:23,080 Speaker 1: a vessel where they go into the neck. But they'll 159 00:08:23,120 --> 00:08:25,200 Speaker 1: have their crash bag with them, which will have a 160 00:08:25,200 --> 00:08:28,600 Speaker 1: defibrillator on it. It'll have a little EKG screen on 161 00:08:28,640 --> 00:08:30,960 Speaker 1: it where they're going to pook up leads on the individual. 162 00:08:31,400 --> 00:08:34,280 Speaker 1: They'll have these leads all over them. It'll have defibrillator 163 00:08:34,320 --> 00:08:37,320 Speaker 1: paddles which you've seen in the movies. And then they'll 164 00:08:37,360 --> 00:08:40,480 Speaker 1: have a group of drugs the stimulants that they're going 165 00:08:40,520 --> 00:08:43,000 Speaker 1: to inject into the body to try to get this 166 00:08:43,120 --> 00:08:47,240 Speaker 1: individual to respond, to try to wake them up or 167 00:08:47,320 --> 00:08:49,480 Speaker 1: at least to try to get their heart beating again, 168 00:08:50,000 --> 00:08:54,320 Speaker 1: because what you don't want happen is that they're going 169 00:08:54,360 --> 00:08:57,280 Speaker 1: to go into a state of anoxia what's referred to 170 00:08:57,440 --> 00:09:00,800 Speaker 1: as anoxia, which means that if the heart it's not beating, 171 00:09:01,200 --> 00:09:05,079 Speaker 1: that you're plumbing all right, and your lungs aren't functioning, 172 00:09:05,240 --> 00:09:09,480 Speaker 1: that's your oxygen uptake. That blood is not being pushed 173 00:09:09,520 --> 00:09:12,720 Speaker 1: to the brain. And if the brain dies, if it 174 00:09:12,800 --> 00:09:16,760 Speaker 1: goes into the state of anoxia, which means it's being 175 00:09:16,800 --> 00:09:20,240 Speaker 1: deprived of oxygen, if you lose the brain, all hope 176 00:09:20,320 --> 00:09:22,679 Speaker 1: is lost at that point in time. But they have 177 00:09:22,760 --> 00:09:25,680 Speaker 1: to get that heart restarted, and so that's what they're doing. 178 00:09:25,720 --> 00:09:28,160 Speaker 1: They're working them and they try to get them out 179 00:09:28,160 --> 00:09:31,520 Speaker 1: of the house, and this plays into an investigation. They're 180 00:09:31,559 --> 00:09:34,440 Speaker 1: trying to get them out of the house, per stretcher, 181 00:09:34,559 --> 00:09:37,080 Speaker 1: get them into the back of that truck, and they're 182 00:09:37,080 --> 00:09:38,920 Speaker 1: going to run lights and sirens all the way to 183 00:09:38,960 --> 00:09:41,520 Speaker 1: the hospital. There will be at least one EMT in 184 00:09:41,559 --> 00:09:44,520 Speaker 1: the back of that truck that is doing chest compressions, 185 00:09:44,600 --> 00:09:47,120 Speaker 1: perhaps working an amboo bag, which is the bag that 186 00:09:47,120 --> 00:09:49,400 Speaker 1: they have over their face where they're squeezing it trying 187 00:09:49,440 --> 00:09:52,400 Speaker 1: to force oxygen into the body until they can get 188 00:09:52,400 --> 00:09:56,320 Speaker 1: them into the emergency room. And it's at that point 189 00:09:56,320 --> 00:09:59,120 Speaker 1: in time that an EER physician will take over. You're 190 00:09:59,120 --> 00:10:01,520 Speaker 1: going to have highly trained nurses and technicians that are 191 00:10:01,559 --> 00:10:03,720 Speaker 1: in there, and they're going to be working a code. 192 00:10:03,720 --> 00:10:06,040 Speaker 1: There's a code that is working as it rolls through 193 00:10:06,040 --> 00:10:07,920 Speaker 1: the door. I used to work as an er tech 194 00:10:08,000 --> 00:10:09,840 Speaker 1: many years ago. It's one of these things. It's like 195 00:10:09,880 --> 00:10:13,040 Speaker 1: so striking. You know, when a person comes through the door, 196 00:10:13,080 --> 00:10:15,400 Speaker 1: they're on a stretcher. In the old days, you would 197 00:10:15,400 --> 00:10:17,840 Speaker 1: see somebody on top of the gurney on top of 198 00:10:17,880 --> 00:10:20,760 Speaker 1: the person doing chest compressions, and that used to really happen. 199 00:10:20,800 --> 00:10:23,800 Speaker 1: They'll roll them into a crash room, which is a 200 00:10:23,880 --> 00:10:26,000 Speaker 1: little bit bigger than a regular treatment room because they 201 00:10:26,040 --> 00:10:28,440 Speaker 1: have all kinds of equipment in there and they're just 202 00:10:28,520 --> 00:10:31,000 Speaker 1: trying to save that life, sustain them for a moment. 203 00:10:31,200 --> 00:10:34,040 Speaker 1: But back at the scene, here's the thing. You've had. 204 00:10:34,080 --> 00:10:38,200 Speaker 1: This it's almost like this tornado that has erupted in 205 00:10:38,280 --> 00:10:43,400 Speaker 1: an otherwise ordered environment. And now you're absent the person 206 00:10:43,440 --> 00:10:45,880 Speaker 1: that dwelled in the home. You've got the other person 207 00:10:45,920 --> 00:10:49,520 Speaker 1: that was with them, that's there perhaps alone. Who knows 208 00:10:49,559 --> 00:10:51,800 Speaker 1: did she go to the hospital with them? Did the 209 00:10:51,800 --> 00:10:55,440 Speaker 1: police stand by at the scene to take notes what 210 00:10:55,679 --> 00:10:58,840 Speaker 1: happened in that moment? Tom, Had anything at that scene 211 00:10:59,200 --> 00:11:03,440 Speaker 1: been rearranged between the time that the person left the 212 00:11:03,480 --> 00:11:06,400 Speaker 1: house that got to the hospital, and you've got an 213 00:11:06,440 --> 00:11:09,600 Speaker 1: individual back at home that has an opportunity to pick 214 00:11:09,679 --> 00:11:13,560 Speaker 1: up furniture, pick up any evidence to make things appear 215 00:11:13,840 --> 00:11:36,320 Speaker 1: as if nothing else happened. I don't know that there 216 00:11:36,440 --> 00:11:39,360 Speaker 1: is a sadder time in the life of a family 217 00:11:39,720 --> 00:11:41,760 Speaker 1: than when you have to sit out there in that 218 00:11:41,920 --> 00:11:45,520 Speaker 1: waiting room and you've got a loved one that is 219 00:11:45,559 --> 00:11:48,080 Speaker 1: on a ventilator. So many times I've gone to hospitals 220 00:11:48,080 --> 00:11:51,080 Speaker 1: to interview families over the years, to talk to them 221 00:11:51,120 --> 00:11:54,520 Speaker 1: to try to understand, because the family has those nuggets 222 00:11:54,520 --> 00:11:58,160 Speaker 1: of truth, those things that kind of populate the story 223 00:11:58,400 --> 00:12:01,839 Speaker 1: of what brought an individual to the position that they're in. 224 00:12:01,840 --> 00:12:05,920 Speaker 1: In this particular case, Dave, this case is not one 225 00:12:05,920 --> 00:12:09,880 Speaker 1: of these cases where we go immediately out to the 226 00:12:09,920 --> 00:12:12,720 Speaker 1: scene as a death investigator and you work the scene. 227 00:12:13,200 --> 00:12:15,760 Speaker 1: This actually requires something called a retro scene visit, and 228 00:12:15,840 --> 00:12:18,080 Speaker 1: I can talk to you about that. But first off, 229 00:12:18,120 --> 00:12:20,840 Speaker 1: you've got to have a death before the medical examiner 230 00:12:20,840 --> 00:12:23,240 Speaker 1: of the corner gets involved, and there wasn't a death 231 00:12:23,320 --> 00:12:24,439 Speaker 1: immediately in this case. 232 00:12:24,600 --> 00:12:26,520 Speaker 2: I'm so glad you brought that up now, because I 233 00:12:26,559 --> 00:12:29,360 Speaker 2: was going back to where we were talking about the 234 00:12:29,400 --> 00:12:32,880 Speaker 2: call that nine one one gets when they activate, and 235 00:12:32,920 --> 00:12:35,760 Speaker 2: the activation is the witness says she was in a 236 00:12:35,800 --> 00:12:38,240 Speaker 2: different room, heard a thud, went in and found her 237 00:12:38,280 --> 00:12:41,320 Speaker 2: mother unconscious next to the bed. Now, I've read a 238 00:12:41,360 --> 00:12:43,880 Speaker 2: report that said she was on the bed, but two 239 00:12:43,920 --> 00:12:46,439 Speaker 2: of the three police reports that next to the bed, 240 00:12:46,520 --> 00:12:49,800 Speaker 2: on the floor. But irregardless of where she was actually found, 241 00:12:49,920 --> 00:12:52,400 Speaker 2: that was what the medical people arrived on scene knowing. 242 00:12:52,480 --> 00:12:55,960 Speaker 2: That's what the police knew when they arrived on the scene. Now, 243 00:12:56,160 --> 00:13:01,120 Speaker 2: as the medics have taken Dorothy Dusold, sixty nine years unconscious, 244 00:13:01,160 --> 00:13:03,120 Speaker 2: they wheeled her out and she's on her way to 245 00:13:03,160 --> 00:13:06,760 Speaker 2: the hospital. Her daughter, Cassandra Dusold, who was thirty three 246 00:13:06,800 --> 00:13:09,600 Speaker 2: at the time, is standing there and now she's talking 247 00:13:09,640 --> 00:13:12,640 Speaker 2: to police because they're saying what happened. Her story of 248 00:13:12,840 --> 00:13:15,000 Speaker 2: I heard a thud and went in and found my 249 00:13:15,080 --> 00:13:18,679 Speaker 2: mother lying unconscious, that story ended fairly quickly as a 250 00:13:18,720 --> 00:13:21,560 Speaker 2: matter of fact. Before Cassandra left to go to the 251 00:13:21,600 --> 00:13:24,439 Speaker 2: hospital to check on her mother, police were talking to 252 00:13:24,440 --> 00:13:26,800 Speaker 2: her at the house and the story changed. She was 253 00:13:26,840 --> 00:13:30,400 Speaker 2: wearing a sweater, a sweatshirt rather, and as she was 254 00:13:30,440 --> 00:13:33,560 Speaker 2: giving a description of what took place, she was describing 255 00:13:33,600 --> 00:13:36,840 Speaker 2: an attack. At first, she said that her mother came 256 00:13:36,880 --> 00:13:39,440 Speaker 2: at her with claws out. Now, to you or me, 257 00:13:39,600 --> 00:13:42,400 Speaker 2: that means it does sound to me like a female attack, 258 00:13:42,559 --> 00:13:45,840 Speaker 2: girl on girl, fingernails kind of thing. Claws out. That 259 00:13:46,000 --> 00:13:50,160 Speaker 2: was the original description from Cassandra Dusold, saying her mother 260 00:13:50,400 --> 00:13:54,160 Speaker 2: was attacking her with claws out. But then Cassandra said 261 00:13:54,240 --> 00:13:57,560 Speaker 2: that she then ended up getting her mother in a 262 00:13:57,679 --> 00:14:00,400 Speaker 2: choke hold. She said she had to yet her in 263 00:14:00,440 --> 00:14:05,199 Speaker 2: a headlock, and she squeezed like a python. She squeezed 264 00:14:05,360 --> 00:14:10,000 Speaker 2: so hard that she hurt her own ribs. That's what 265 00:14:10,040 --> 00:14:14,160 Speaker 2: this daughter said. She squeezed her mother so hard that 266 00:14:14,600 --> 00:14:17,480 Speaker 2: she squeezed the life out of her. Now, when the 267 00:14:17,520 --> 00:14:21,960 Speaker 2: medics arrived, they described a scene of injuries that I 268 00:14:22,000 --> 00:14:25,040 Speaker 2: can't figure out. And that's why I was glad that 269 00:14:25,080 --> 00:14:27,600 Speaker 2: you were talking about how this all breaks down for 270 00:14:27,720 --> 00:14:30,520 Speaker 2: police and medics and how they all have to figure 271 00:14:30,520 --> 00:14:33,920 Speaker 2: out what went on, because what kind of injuries would 272 00:14:33,960 --> 00:14:37,520 Speaker 2: one achieve or have based on being squeezed like this 273 00:14:37,640 --> 00:14:39,920 Speaker 2: in this python death grip around the neck. 274 00:14:40,520 --> 00:14:42,800 Speaker 1: Well, let's back up. First off, I don't understand this 275 00:14:42,960 --> 00:14:47,160 Speaker 1: suspect has a proclivity for going back to animal references. 276 00:14:47,280 --> 00:14:51,080 Speaker 1: She talks about pythons, and she talks about having claws out, 277 00:14:51,240 --> 00:14:55,760 Speaker 1: claws deployed, this kind of animalistic imagery that's being painted here. 278 00:14:55,960 --> 00:14:58,240 Speaker 1: Why does she slip back to that we can go 279 00:14:58,280 --> 00:15:00,680 Speaker 1: down this road and talk about promal things and all that. 280 00:15:00,760 --> 00:15:03,480 Speaker 1: But I've heard people say they fought like a wild animal. 281 00:15:03,560 --> 00:15:05,200 Speaker 1: I've heard people say that, But this is kind of 282 00:15:05,240 --> 00:15:07,120 Speaker 1: specific stuff when you think about it. 283 00:15:07,400 --> 00:15:09,640 Speaker 2: So you haven't heard that as a descriptive before she 284 00:15:09,680 --> 00:15:10,920 Speaker 2: came in with the claws out. 285 00:15:11,080 --> 00:15:15,320 Speaker 1: I've heard of it from people describing an altercation that 286 00:15:15,360 --> 00:15:18,600 Speaker 1: they had, and it's generally metaphorical, where they'll say they 287 00:15:18,640 --> 00:15:20,880 Speaker 1: came at me with their claws out, meaning that they 288 00:15:20,880 --> 00:15:24,080 Speaker 1: were going to really do damage. And again do damage. 289 00:15:24,120 --> 00:15:27,480 Speaker 1: What kind of imagery are you attempting to create with 290 00:15:27,640 --> 00:15:31,320 Speaker 1: law enforcement? Well, what you're saying by that, you're actually 291 00:15:31,320 --> 00:15:34,200 Speaker 1: stating claws out, implies that she's going to rip me 292 00:15:34,240 --> 00:15:36,680 Speaker 1: to threads that she's going to do harm to me, 293 00:15:37,280 --> 00:15:39,720 Speaker 1: And all the while you might have a suspect that 294 00:15:39,960 --> 00:15:43,320 Speaker 1: is trying to justify their actions. Now, hey, listen, at 295 00:15:43,320 --> 00:15:45,800 Speaker 1: this point in time, you don't know. Maybe there's familial 296 00:15:45,880 --> 00:15:49,360 Speaker 1: violence that goes on in this house. Maybe this daughter 297 00:15:49,480 --> 00:15:54,080 Speaker 1: has been subjected to familial violence, something that has gone 298 00:15:54,080 --> 00:15:57,040 Speaker 1: on in that home that she's born witness to who knows, 299 00:15:57,440 --> 00:16:00,680 Speaker 1: and so she's got this kind of indwelling fear within her. 300 00:16:00,920 --> 00:16:04,680 Speaker 1: It doesn't mean that it's some kind of psychopathy. Necessarily, 301 00:16:04,680 --> 00:16:08,280 Speaker 1: it's some kind of mental defect or disease that she's 302 00:16:08,320 --> 00:16:10,480 Speaker 1: born witness to it. Who knows at this point, And 303 00:16:10,480 --> 00:16:13,520 Speaker 1: so the police are working this and they're trying to understand. 304 00:16:14,000 --> 00:16:18,560 Speaker 1: First off, anytime a suspect changes a story with the cops, 305 00:16:18,880 --> 00:16:22,520 Speaker 1: the human part within an investigator's brain, and aside from 306 00:16:22,520 --> 00:16:25,240 Speaker 1: being an investigator, you're going to say, okay, you're lying 307 00:16:25,280 --> 00:16:27,600 Speaker 1: to me. Now, I'm not going to believe anything else 308 00:16:27,640 --> 00:16:29,440 Speaker 1: you have to say. That's a strike one. 309 00:16:29,800 --> 00:16:33,080 Speaker 2: Isn't that obvious though, And everything we know about police 310 00:16:33,080 --> 00:16:38,000 Speaker 2: and investigations whenever, why did the story change? Because either 311 00:16:38,040 --> 00:16:39,840 Speaker 2: the first story you told me is a lie or 312 00:16:39,880 --> 00:16:41,600 Speaker 2: the second story you're telling me is a lie. They're 313 00:16:41,600 --> 00:16:43,680 Speaker 2: not going to live at the same place and time. 314 00:16:43,960 --> 00:16:46,720 Speaker 2: They are separate, And now you're giving me a choice 315 00:16:46,960 --> 00:16:48,600 Speaker 2: to decide which one I'm going to go with. 316 00:16:48,840 --> 00:16:51,960 Speaker 1: Yeah, you're right. And for some reason, I guess that 317 00:16:52,240 --> 00:16:55,160 Speaker 1: may perhaps a suspect thought that I'm going to be 318 00:16:55,160 --> 00:16:58,120 Speaker 1: able to justify what happened. First off, you know, I'm 319 00:16:58,120 --> 00:17:01,040 Speaker 1: going to try to attribute this to something other than 320 00:17:01,560 --> 00:17:04,840 Speaker 1: what it turned out being some kind of natural disease. Look, 321 00:17:04,840 --> 00:17:06,280 Speaker 1: if you're a cop and you're out there, you don't 322 00:17:06,280 --> 00:17:08,080 Speaker 1: know what her medical history is at the time. Now 323 00:17:08,119 --> 00:17:10,879 Speaker 1: that's a question you'll ask. That's a question that EMTs 324 00:17:10,920 --> 00:17:13,040 Speaker 1: would say. They'd look at the daughter. I've seen them 325 00:17:13,080 --> 00:17:15,840 Speaker 1: doing this while they're working a case feverishly. They'll look up, 326 00:17:16,080 --> 00:17:18,679 Speaker 1: is your mother on any medication? Has she ever had 327 00:17:18,720 --> 00:17:21,040 Speaker 1: a heart attack? And they're asking these questions. They're being 328 00:17:21,080 --> 00:17:24,000 Speaker 1: thrown out and the family members like, uh uh, well, 329 00:17:24,080 --> 00:17:25,879 Speaker 1: let me go in the medicine cabinet and get what 330 00:17:25,920 --> 00:17:28,399 Speaker 1: they have, you know, and that sort of thing you'll 331 00:17:28,440 --> 00:17:31,080 Speaker 1: have that happen, you know, and it does happen, and 332 00:17:31,080 --> 00:17:33,280 Speaker 1: then the cops come in behind once everything is kind 333 00:17:33,320 --> 00:17:35,280 Speaker 1: of settled down, and say what kind of medical history 334 00:17:35,320 --> 00:17:37,400 Speaker 1: did your mother have? Did she fall down a lot? 335 00:17:37,520 --> 00:17:39,320 Speaker 1: Because one of the things I found out about this 336 00:17:39,400 --> 00:17:43,400 Speaker 1: case is that after they began to examine the mother, 337 00:17:43,480 --> 00:17:46,960 Speaker 1: who by the way, like I said, did in fact survive, 338 00:17:47,240 --> 00:17:50,600 Speaker 1: but only for hours. I guess it turned out maybe 339 00:17:50,600 --> 00:17:54,600 Speaker 1: a couple of days she's on ICU, they begin to 340 00:17:54,640 --> 00:17:57,880 Speaker 1: see that the mother has got bilateral which means side 341 00:17:57,880 --> 00:17:59,280 Speaker 1: by side black eyes. 342 00:17:59,400 --> 00:18:01,960 Speaker 2: Dave, what does that mean? Is that going to happen 343 00:18:02,040 --> 00:18:03,840 Speaker 2: during the choking or the squeezing. 344 00:18:04,200 --> 00:18:07,280 Speaker 1: I think that it could. You could have some hemorrhagic 345 00:18:07,359 --> 00:18:10,479 Speaker 1: changes where the face begins to swell. Generally you're going 346 00:18:10,520 --> 00:18:13,840 Speaker 1: to see pa tikii, which are tiny little hemorrhages most 347 00:18:13,840 --> 00:18:16,080 Speaker 1: of the time. Though, when you see an individual with 348 00:18:16,600 --> 00:18:21,600 Speaker 1: true bilateral black eyes, that means that there's a skull fracture, 349 00:18:21,760 --> 00:18:25,440 Speaker 1: because you're talking about the eyes swelling as a result 350 00:18:25,480 --> 00:18:28,560 Speaker 1: of the floor of the skull literally being cracked. It's 351 00:18:28,680 --> 00:18:31,919 Speaker 1: bleeding behind the eyes. Eyes swell up. If you've ever 352 00:18:32,160 --> 00:18:36,120 Speaker 1: been around somebody that's had plastic surgery done to their 353 00:18:36,240 --> 00:18:39,800 Speaker 1: nose to alter the nose in any way. It's not 354 00:18:39,920 --> 00:18:44,040 Speaker 1: as gentle as it sounds when people say plastic surgery. 355 00:18:44,320 --> 00:18:47,240 Speaker 1: There's bone being broken, there's bone being fractured and cracked 356 00:18:47,280 --> 00:18:49,720 Speaker 1: and remodeled and all those sorts of things. Well, what 357 00:18:49,880 --> 00:18:53,440 Speaker 1: happens with that, Well you get swollen eyes, and you've 358 00:18:53,480 --> 00:18:56,320 Speaker 1: got hemorrhagic changes that are behind there. It's just the 359 00:18:56,359 --> 00:18:58,800 Speaker 1: way the body reacts. So I find that statement that 360 00:18:58,840 --> 00:19:04,080 Speaker 1: they made about bilateral bruises beneath the eyes kind of interesting. 361 00:19:04,520 --> 00:19:07,720 Speaker 2: You mentioned skull fracture in this case too. They also 362 00:19:07,800 --> 00:19:11,840 Speaker 2: found blood behind her head and coming out of her ears, 363 00:19:12,119 --> 00:19:14,400 Speaker 2: one ear in particular, in their right ear. Would that 364 00:19:14,520 --> 00:19:17,399 Speaker 2: also run counter or would that be opposed to what 365 00:19:17,400 --> 00:19:20,159 Speaker 2: you're describing, or could that actually be something also to 366 00:19:20,240 --> 00:19:22,160 Speaker 2: expect if somebody has hurt their head. 367 00:19:22,680 --> 00:19:26,480 Speaker 1: Yeah, it could be directly related to an impact injury. 368 00:19:26,600 --> 00:19:29,840 Speaker 1: And I'm curious about this because the skin doesn't just 369 00:19:29,920 --> 00:19:34,040 Speaker 1: spontaneously crack open interrupt You have to have some kind 370 00:19:34,080 --> 00:19:37,439 Speaker 1: of impact trauma, whether you're talking about a gunshot wound, 371 00:19:37,920 --> 00:19:40,760 Speaker 1: a fall where they actually make a contact with a 372 00:19:40,760 --> 00:19:43,800 Speaker 1: floor like a thud, or where they're struck with an object. 373 00:19:44,040 --> 00:19:47,119 Speaker 1: So I find it curious that she's got blood in 374 00:19:47,160 --> 00:19:50,119 Speaker 1: the back of her head, she's got blood that's emanating 375 00:19:50,200 --> 00:19:53,480 Speaker 1: from her ear. There have been cases where people will 376 00:19:53,520 --> 00:19:57,560 Speaker 1: have overly congested heads as a result of a six 377 00:19:57,600 --> 00:20:00,560 Speaker 1: yieal event where there's a bit of blood seeps out 378 00:20:00,600 --> 00:20:02,760 Speaker 1: of the ear, but those cases are so few and 379 00:20:02,800 --> 00:20:05,280 Speaker 1: far between extraordinary that you wouldn't see it. So I'm 380 00:20:05,280 --> 00:20:08,480 Speaker 1: thinking there's some kind of skull trauma going on, particularly 381 00:20:08,480 --> 00:20:11,040 Speaker 1: when you couple that with the swelling and the eyes, 382 00:20:11,560 --> 00:20:13,919 Speaker 1: the blackening of the eyes, this sort of thing. But 383 00:20:14,240 --> 00:20:20,320 Speaker 1: what's interesting is the daughter is stating that she actually 384 00:20:20,359 --> 00:20:23,320 Speaker 1: got the mom in a choke hold, and you really 385 00:20:23,320 --> 00:20:25,959 Speaker 1: have to examine that and think about the position that 386 00:20:26,000 --> 00:20:28,680 Speaker 1: an individual is in when they did that. And they're 387 00:20:28,720 --> 00:20:31,359 Speaker 1: being very non specific about this. Now, if they a 388 00:20:31,440 --> 00:20:33,960 Speaker 1: traditional choke hold, when you think about it, first off, 389 00:20:33,960 --> 00:20:36,240 Speaker 1: cops can't do them anymore. They used to be able 390 00:20:36,320 --> 00:20:38,119 Speaker 1: to do them. You'll see them in like wrestling and 391 00:20:38,119 --> 00:20:40,320 Speaker 1: all these sorts of things. You have what's referred to 392 00:20:40,480 --> 00:20:42,800 Speaker 1: and if everybody at home will kind of envision this, 393 00:20:43,000 --> 00:20:44,760 Speaker 1: you have what used to be referred to as an 394 00:20:44,920 --> 00:20:48,960 Speaker 1: arm bar. You take and place your forearm beneath the 395 00:20:49,080 --> 00:20:52,360 Speaker 1: chin and you pull back with one arm and you 396 00:20:52,400 --> 00:20:56,240 Speaker 1: compress the trachea externally. Okay, that's an arm bar. Then 397 00:20:56,280 --> 00:20:59,160 Speaker 1: you have a traditional choke hold, which means you get 398 00:20:59,160 --> 00:21:01,199 Speaker 1: the individual in the crook of your arm if you 399 00:21:01,280 --> 00:21:04,800 Speaker 1: have the arm bent at the elbow, and then almost 400 00:21:04,840 --> 00:21:08,480 Speaker 1: like a nutcracker, you put leverage on that arm with 401 00:21:08,640 --> 00:21:11,359 Speaker 1: your other arm and you begin to squeeze down. 402 00:21:11,720 --> 00:21:13,560 Speaker 2: Is that like the sleeper hole that we used to 403 00:21:13,600 --> 00:21:14,040 Speaker 2: hear about. 404 00:21:14,480 --> 00:21:17,240 Speaker 1: It is like the sleeper hold. And also in combatives 405 00:21:17,320 --> 00:21:20,280 Speaker 1: training where you have the military that where this is 406 00:21:20,520 --> 00:21:23,119 Speaker 1: lethal training that they're doing, and this is kind of 407 00:21:23,119 --> 00:21:26,120 Speaker 1: a jiu jitsu thing as well, where they will choke 408 00:21:26,160 --> 00:21:29,960 Speaker 1: an individual out with a chokehold and they'll also here's 409 00:21:30,200 --> 00:21:33,480 Speaker 1: another interesting part where they will wrap their or intertwine 410 00:21:33,480 --> 00:21:37,160 Speaker 1: their legs with the individual to first off, prevent them 411 00:21:37,160 --> 00:21:39,639 Speaker 1: from moving, and secondly they'll begin to squeeze with a 412 00:21:39,720 --> 00:21:42,399 Speaker 1: lower body as well, and you get the person into 413 00:21:42,440 --> 00:21:44,800 Speaker 1: a state of compliance at that point in time. The 414 00:21:44,880 --> 00:21:47,720 Speaker 1: problem is is that most people that are doing this, 415 00:21:47,920 --> 00:21:50,119 Speaker 1: you don't have the individual hooked up to a machine 416 00:21:50,320 --> 00:21:52,600 Speaker 1: that's going to say, okay, well, you're at a critical 417 00:21:52,760 --> 00:21:54,879 Speaker 1: point right here. And you're about to kill the person. 418 00:21:55,080 --> 00:21:57,320 Speaker 1: If anger is high, or as they used to say, 419 00:21:57,520 --> 00:22:01,280 Speaker 1: their blood is up, and you're squeezing and there's anger involved, 420 00:22:01,320 --> 00:22:04,119 Speaker 1: you're not going to know where that line of demarcation is, 421 00:22:04,160 --> 00:22:06,480 Speaker 1: where you've gotten into the lethal range at that point 422 00:22:06,520 --> 00:22:07,000 Speaker 1: in time. 423 00:22:07,520 --> 00:22:10,120 Speaker 2: Now, the one thing that we did see police said 424 00:22:10,119 --> 00:22:13,200 Speaker 2: that she was wearing a sweatshirt and was getting Cassandra 425 00:22:13,359 --> 00:22:16,240 Speaker 2: the daughter was giving the description of what happened when 426 00:22:16,240 --> 00:22:18,120 Speaker 2: she said she came with claws out and everything else, 427 00:22:18,160 --> 00:22:20,919 Speaker 2: and then she took her shirt off. She took the 428 00:22:20,960 --> 00:22:25,520 Speaker 2: long sleeved sweatshirt off and revealed that Cassandra, who had 429 00:22:25,560 --> 00:22:27,920 Speaker 2: her mother in the choke hold, squeezing like a python, 430 00:22:28,119 --> 00:22:31,480 Speaker 2: that she had scratch marks on her arm Cassandra the daughter, 431 00:22:31,760 --> 00:22:34,880 Speaker 2: as if the mother was trying to pull the arm 432 00:22:35,119 --> 00:22:37,439 Speaker 2: away from her neck, as if she was trying to 433 00:22:37,480 --> 00:22:39,760 Speaker 2: get out of the choke hold, and those marks were 434 00:22:39,800 --> 00:22:42,040 Speaker 2: left on Cassandra Dussaul's arm. 435 00:22:42,560 --> 00:22:44,000 Speaker 1: And do you know, Dave, that's one of the most 436 00:22:44,040 --> 00:22:48,320 Speaker 1: important things if you pay attention as an investigator to 437 00:22:48,400 --> 00:22:52,119 Speaker 1: all that remained and all that is left behind, either 438 00:22:52,240 --> 00:22:55,080 Speaker 1: the body of the victim or in this case, the 439 00:22:55,119 --> 00:22:58,720 Speaker 1: body of the perpetrator will tell you exactly what happened. 440 00:23:18,400 --> 00:23:22,199 Speaker 1: You're a police officer and you have this individual that 441 00:23:22,480 --> 00:23:26,800 Speaker 1: is trying to convince you that her most current story, 442 00:23:26,840 --> 00:23:30,600 Speaker 1: and I'm referring to Cassandra do so, her most current 443 00:23:30,640 --> 00:23:33,560 Speaker 1: story that she's given you is the gospel truth. It's 444 00:23:33,640 --> 00:23:36,520 Speaker 1: really hard to know which way to go with it. 445 00:23:36,520 --> 00:23:39,320 Speaker 1: It's really hard to kind of suss this out, as 446 00:23:39,320 --> 00:23:42,240 Speaker 1: they say, because you do want to know the facts, 447 00:23:42,640 --> 00:23:46,840 Speaker 1: because sometimes people die violently as a result of them 448 00:23:46,920 --> 00:23:50,240 Speaker 1: attacking another person. As a police officer, you can't discount 449 00:23:50,280 --> 00:23:52,480 Speaker 1: that because that's an element of the law that's referred 450 00:23:52,480 --> 00:23:55,720 Speaker 1: to a self defense. But when you have a subject 451 00:23:55,880 --> 00:23:59,560 Speaker 1: that is changing stories back and forth, and in addition 452 00:23:59,640 --> 00:24:03,280 Speaker 1: to that they have made an effort to mask their 453 00:24:03,320 --> 00:24:07,840 Speaker 1: deeds by putting on clothing to cover themselves up, you're 454 00:24:07,880 --> 00:24:11,800 Speaker 1: into a completely different bit of territory at that point 455 00:24:11,840 --> 00:24:12,240 Speaker 1: in time. 456 00:24:12,600 --> 00:24:16,640 Speaker 2: Now we know, based on what Cassandra Dusoult has told us, 457 00:24:16,760 --> 00:24:19,520 Speaker 2: that she squeezed her mother in a choke called like 458 00:24:19,560 --> 00:24:22,240 Speaker 2: a python. She squeezed her hard enough that she felt 459 00:24:22,280 --> 00:24:25,639 Speaker 2: her own ribs squeeze, that she hurt her own ribs 460 00:24:25,760 --> 00:24:28,080 Speaker 2: while squeezing the life out of her mother. We know 461 00:24:28,160 --> 00:24:30,360 Speaker 2: that her mother was taken to the hospital and never 462 00:24:30,400 --> 00:24:33,520 Speaker 2: regained consciousness. He had little to no brain function. She 463 00:24:33,560 --> 00:24:36,399 Speaker 2: eventually was taken off of life support and passed. We 464 00:24:36,480 --> 00:24:38,600 Speaker 2: know that the story that was told, I heard a 465 00:24:38,680 --> 00:24:41,439 Speaker 2: thump and she found my mother unconscious, and then she 466 00:24:41,520 --> 00:24:43,800 Speaker 2: later tells the police, well, I was the thump, and 467 00:24:43,840 --> 00:24:45,919 Speaker 2: by the way, here the scratches on my arm that 468 00:24:45,960 --> 00:24:48,160 Speaker 2: I tried to hide from you. As the police are 469 00:24:48,160 --> 00:24:50,680 Speaker 2: looking into this and the defense is getting their own 470 00:24:50,720 --> 00:24:53,440 Speaker 2: statement together, claiming that there was some mental health issues 471 00:24:53,600 --> 00:24:56,359 Speaker 2: that did come out, that there were some mental health 472 00:24:56,600 --> 00:25:00,199 Speaker 2: issues at play here, but they didn't have anything do 473 00:25:00,240 --> 00:25:02,600 Speaker 2: with right or wrong, and they use this And I 474 00:25:02,640 --> 00:25:04,639 Speaker 2: think I asked you this before we started today, just 475 00:25:04,680 --> 00:25:06,760 Speaker 2: because I was kind of curious. I mean, you're a 476 00:25:06,800 --> 00:25:09,000 Speaker 2: medical guy. When you go and you see somebody, if 477 00:25:09,040 --> 00:25:10,960 Speaker 2: they're trying to cover up a wound, they're trying to 478 00:25:11,000 --> 00:25:14,119 Speaker 2: cover up something that they know is not supposed to 479 00:25:14,119 --> 00:25:16,560 Speaker 2: be there. For instance, scratches on your arm. If there's 480 00:25:16,640 --> 00:25:18,919 Speaker 2: just a sudden you find your mother unconscious, you wouldn't 481 00:25:18,920 --> 00:25:21,040 Speaker 2: have scratches on your arm. So you have to cover 482 00:25:21,119 --> 00:25:23,760 Speaker 2: that up to fit your story immediately coming up with 483 00:25:23,840 --> 00:25:26,840 Speaker 2: a lie. Doesn't that mean you know the difference between 484 00:25:26,920 --> 00:25:27,520 Speaker 2: right and wrong? 485 00:25:27,920 --> 00:25:31,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, and not just that, but you're trying to survive 486 00:25:31,320 --> 00:25:34,240 Speaker 1: at that point in time. I often think about this 487 00:25:34,320 --> 00:25:37,040 Speaker 1: because I cover a lot of these trials I up 488 00:25:37,080 --> 00:25:40,480 Speaker 1: here on these various television networks and whatnot, and it 489 00:25:40,560 --> 00:25:43,080 Speaker 1: always amazes me. I'll sit there and I'll listen to 490 00:25:43,680 --> 00:25:46,280 Speaker 1: the forensic psychologists that I'll be on the air with, 491 00:25:46,480 --> 00:25:49,960 Speaker 1: and God bless them. Their world is very nuanced compared 492 00:25:50,000 --> 00:25:52,359 Speaker 1: to the world that I live in. You're dealing with 493 00:25:52,480 --> 00:25:55,840 Speaker 1: numbers and kind of physical findings on things. What I 494 00:25:55,880 --> 00:25:58,439 Speaker 1: will say is that when you have an individual that 495 00:25:58,600 --> 00:26:02,760 Speaker 1: is making an attempt to cover their tracks and to 496 00:26:02,840 --> 00:26:05,680 Speaker 1: put distance and I literally mean this in a physical sense, 497 00:26:05,720 --> 00:26:09,919 Speaker 1: put distance between themselves and the attack, you've got this awareness, 498 00:26:09,960 --> 00:26:12,560 Speaker 1: I think, and what I do know and what I learned. 499 00:26:12,720 --> 00:26:14,679 Speaker 1: I even learned this at a graduate level in my 500 00:26:14,720 --> 00:26:18,119 Speaker 1: forensic science studies. When you study the idea of constitutional 501 00:26:18,200 --> 00:26:20,080 Speaker 1: law and these sorts of things, they have these two 502 00:26:20,240 --> 00:26:23,000 Speaker 1: terms that they use, these Latin terms, and it's actus 503 00:26:23,080 --> 00:26:26,359 Speaker 1: ray and that's the guilty Act, and that means that 504 00:26:26,480 --> 00:26:29,480 Speaker 1: you've committed an act that flies in the face of 505 00:26:29,520 --> 00:26:33,840 Speaker 1: the law, like a homicide. All right, then they have minisrae, 506 00:26:34,160 --> 00:26:37,520 Speaker 1: which means guilty. Mind. If you are in possession of 507 00:26:37,600 --> 00:26:41,520 Speaker 1: minisrae per an evaluation, then that means that you're aware 508 00:26:41,840 --> 00:26:43,920 Speaker 1: of what's going on. It's not like they come across 509 00:26:43,960 --> 00:26:46,920 Speaker 1: and they find you dancing around in the front yard 510 00:26:46,920 --> 00:26:50,920 Speaker 1: with an imaginary butterfly and that attempting to catch invisible butterflies. 511 00:26:51,040 --> 00:26:53,760 Speaker 1: All right, you're not necessarily oriented to time and space 512 00:26:53,800 --> 00:26:56,040 Speaker 1: at that moment in time. You're talking about a person 513 00:26:56,119 --> 00:26:59,760 Speaker 1: that Yeah, I mean, I'm sure she's got trauma, she's 514 00:26:59,760 --> 00:27:03,080 Speaker 1: got mental health issues in the past, but that doesn't 515 00:27:03,080 --> 00:27:07,040 Speaker 1: necessarily mean at that moment in time that she was 516 00:27:07,080 --> 00:27:09,840 Speaker 1: not aware that what she was doing was wrong. I 517 00:27:09,840 --> 00:27:12,280 Speaker 1: mean it was wrong. Maybe she did fly into a 518 00:27:12,359 --> 00:27:14,600 Speaker 1: rage in order to perpetrate this. Not a lot of 519 00:27:14,640 --> 00:27:17,520 Speaker 1: planning went into this. I will say that this is 520 00:27:17,560 --> 00:27:20,879 Speaker 1: something I think that was rather an impulsive event. But 521 00:27:21,119 --> 00:27:23,200 Speaker 1: I can tell you this, the mother we were kind 522 00:27:23,200 --> 00:27:26,320 Speaker 1: of dancing around the dates a little bit. She was 523 00:27:26,400 --> 00:27:29,760 Speaker 1: there for technically two days, but they're saying she actually 524 00:27:29,840 --> 00:27:32,560 Speaker 1: died after three, So she rolls in the hospital at 525 00:27:32,680 --> 00:27:35,879 Speaker 1: night in the evening, they'd been eating supper at that 526 00:27:35,920 --> 00:27:38,879 Speaker 1: point in time. She survived for three days. That's the 527 00:27:38,920 --> 00:27:42,080 Speaker 1: other kind of cruel level to this. I think the 528 00:27:42,119 --> 00:27:45,639 Speaker 1: family and friends would have gathered at the hospital, and 529 00:27:45,680 --> 00:27:48,399 Speaker 1: she had a lot of friends. She's very successful business person, 530 00:27:48,640 --> 00:27:52,680 Speaker 1: highly educated. Her husband was a local politician. 531 00:27:52,320 --> 00:27:53,440 Speaker 2: In city council. Game. 532 00:27:53,760 --> 00:27:56,040 Speaker 1: Yeah, but you know that the doctors would have come 533 00:27:56,080 --> 00:27:58,879 Speaker 1: out and told them, listen, we've done everything that we 534 00:27:59,160 --> 00:28:03,400 Speaker 1: possibly could do. But here's kind of the beneath the 535 00:28:03,480 --> 00:28:05,639 Speaker 1: layers that they would have gone into with the family 536 00:28:05,720 --> 00:28:07,760 Speaker 1: at that point in time. As a result of this 537 00:28:07,880 --> 00:28:12,639 Speaker 1: pressure being placed on this woman's throat, and you've got 538 00:28:13,000 --> 00:28:16,879 Speaker 1: not just the airway which if people will feel the 539 00:28:16,920 --> 00:28:20,480 Speaker 1: cartilaginous area in their neck the trachea, but just to 540 00:28:20,560 --> 00:28:23,359 Speaker 1: either side of it the two major vessels there that 541 00:28:23,400 --> 00:28:25,879 Speaker 1: are the carotids, and then you also have the jugular 542 00:28:25,960 --> 00:28:29,960 Speaker 1: veins that are there as well. Those are outgoing and incoming. 543 00:28:30,400 --> 00:28:33,520 Speaker 1: So you've got the arteries the carotids that supply the 544 00:28:33,560 --> 00:28:35,920 Speaker 1: oxygenated blood to the brain, and then it's going to 545 00:28:35,960 --> 00:28:38,320 Speaker 1: be brought back through the venus system. All of that 546 00:28:38,360 --> 00:28:41,360 Speaker 1: was compromised, Dave, and it was compromised to the point 547 00:28:41,480 --> 00:28:45,480 Speaker 1: where that choke hold that she applied to her mother, 548 00:28:45,560 --> 00:28:49,440 Speaker 1: and her mother was aware, Dave, that bad things were happening, 549 00:28:49,520 --> 00:28:52,080 Speaker 1: and the reason she was aware of it, it's evidenced 550 00:28:52,120 --> 00:28:54,959 Speaker 1: on the perpetrator's body. Just imagine. I don't know how 551 00:28:54,960 --> 00:28:57,240 Speaker 1: many people can actually identify with this. Maybe when you're 552 00:28:57,240 --> 00:28:59,880 Speaker 1: a kid and you're tusseling around, if there's something that 553 00:29:00,280 --> 00:29:02,600 Speaker 1: is blocking your airway, you're going to fight like a 554 00:29:02,640 --> 00:29:06,240 Speaker 1: fury in order to free yourself from that, And that's 555 00:29:06,360 --> 00:29:09,880 Speaker 1: essentially what this woman was doing those last moments of 556 00:29:09,960 --> 00:29:14,120 Speaker 1: consciousness that she possessed. Now they have listed her cause 557 00:29:14,160 --> 00:29:19,280 Speaker 1: of death as anoxic encephalopathy, which means her brain was 558 00:29:20,120 --> 00:29:23,360 Speaker 1: oxygen deprived. But when you look at a death certificate, 559 00:29:23,440 --> 00:29:27,320 Speaker 1: there's like a primary cause of death, and that's also 560 00:29:27,480 --> 00:29:31,640 Speaker 1: coupled along with cardiopulmonary arrest, which means she went into 561 00:29:31,720 --> 00:29:36,600 Speaker 1: cardiac arrest as a result of oxygen not being supplied. 562 00:29:37,040 --> 00:29:39,560 Speaker 1: Both these things are in concert with one another because 563 00:29:39,600 --> 00:29:42,400 Speaker 1: if you're impacting the brain, particularly, you know, you think 564 00:29:42,400 --> 00:29:45,200 Speaker 1: about the autonomic nervous system, that area within your brain 565 00:29:45,240 --> 00:29:47,680 Speaker 1: that tells your heart to beat, tells you to breathe. 566 00:29:47,720 --> 00:29:49,920 Speaker 1: You don't have to think about it. It just happens 567 00:29:50,280 --> 00:29:53,040 Speaker 1: that brain center is getting harmed as a result of 568 00:29:53,080 --> 00:29:58,000 Speaker 1: oxygen deprivation. But from a broader sense, the direct cause 569 00:29:58,000 --> 00:30:00,160 Speaker 1: of death, and this is kind of interesting, is actually 570 00:30:00,240 --> 00:30:05,560 Speaker 1: listed as manual strangulation. And when we think about manual strangulation, 571 00:30:06,000 --> 00:30:09,240 Speaker 1: we generally don't think about choke hols. We think about 572 00:30:09,440 --> 00:30:12,840 Speaker 1: throttling where you grab the neck and you squeeze, or 573 00:30:13,320 --> 00:30:17,680 Speaker 1: where you sea clamp the throat and you squeeze down 574 00:30:17,680 --> 00:30:19,600 Speaker 1: on it. But most of the time you'll have with 575 00:30:19,720 --> 00:30:21,680 Speaker 1: a sea clamp. If you'll just make your folks that 576 00:30:21,720 --> 00:30:24,000 Speaker 1: are listening to me and make their hand into this 577 00:30:24,240 --> 00:30:27,480 Speaker 1: configuration of a sea one hand, and pretend that you're 578 00:30:27,480 --> 00:30:30,320 Speaker 1: grabbing the center of your throat and you squeeze lots 579 00:30:30,360 --> 00:30:33,520 Speaker 1: of times with that, you're going to see severe cartilaginous 580 00:30:33,600 --> 00:30:36,520 Speaker 1: damage in that area. You'll actually fracture the cartilage many 581 00:30:36,560 --> 00:30:39,360 Speaker 1: times with a sea clamp. But it's just an interesting 582 00:30:39,520 --> 00:30:43,200 Speaker 1: term that the medical examiner used when they listed her 583 00:30:43,240 --> 00:30:47,520 Speaker 1: cause of death as manual strangulation, because why say manual 584 00:30:47,560 --> 00:30:52,160 Speaker 1: strangulation as opposed to choke hold. Maybe those two things 585 00:30:52,200 --> 00:30:55,680 Speaker 1: are interchangeable. For this particular medical examiner, I have actually 586 00:30:55,720 --> 00:30:59,520 Speaker 1: seen choke hold on a death certificate, but that leads 587 00:30:59,560 --> 00:31:03,240 Speaker 1: us to something else. Did the investigators, did the police 588 00:31:03,640 --> 00:31:07,760 Speaker 1: get it right? Did she actually tell them everything? Because 589 00:31:07,880 --> 00:31:11,760 Speaker 1: was there evidence there that the medical examiner saw that 590 00:31:12,360 --> 00:31:16,240 Speaker 1: would imply maybe this wasn't necessarily a choke hold where 591 00:31:16,240 --> 00:31:19,520 Speaker 1: she's wrapping her mother up from the back. Maybe she 592 00:31:19,640 --> 00:31:22,800 Speaker 1: came at her with both of those hands together squeezed 593 00:31:22,840 --> 00:31:25,800 Speaker 1: the life out of her with her hands wrapped around 594 00:31:25,840 --> 00:31:28,959 Speaker 1: her neck. I don't know that anyone will ever know 595 00:31:29,320 --> 00:31:32,640 Speaker 1: what actually happened in this particular case, but I can 596 00:31:32,800 --> 00:31:37,160 Speaker 1: tell you this, this perpetrator, this young woman, killed her mother. 597 00:31:37,440 --> 00:31:40,680 Speaker 1: She killed her mother on the floor of their family home, 598 00:31:41,040 --> 00:31:44,720 Speaker 1: and Cassandra Dusold has been convicted of manslaughter and will 599 00:31:44,760 --> 00:31:52,200 Speaker 1: be away for at least ten years. I'm Joseph Scott Morgan, 600 00:31:52,480 --> 00:32:09,800 Speaker 1: and this is Bodybacks